The Fix
This post was written by an SNP NEC member present at last week’s controversial Zoom meeting, who wishes to remain anonymous. Wings has verified their credentials.
A farce, a shambles, an incompetent mess. There’s no other way to sum up the NEC stitch-up of the Edinburgh Central seat last week.
Bad enough was the situation of the Glasgow Cathcart seat, over which my sources tell me it didn’t take long for someone in ministerial tower to realise “but what if Dornan jumps ship to an Indy list party, we’ve just given them a seat in Parliament to promote why our both votes SNP message doesn’t make sense.”
And of course those looking at what really matters in the near future were noting “we could already be relying on Derek Mackay to turn back up at Parliament – and for Mark McDonald to crawl out from the bus we threw him under – to survive a confidence vote if the inquiry doesn’t go our way, now we’ve just lost Dornan’s vote, the Greens are going to hold us to ransom…”
Fast forward a mere day and James Dornan didn’t even need to threaten legal action to get that decision overturned.
A decision that was on the agenda for two meetings of the NEC, to be discussed over a period of two months, the papers written by the party’s corporate compliance manager, signed off by a CEO on a six-figure salary, sent to a Business Convener that made her career in HR (and who chaired the meeting), before finally being given the OK by the National Secretary who is guardian of the Constitution of the party, and has responsibility for adjudicating on the interpretation of that Constitution as well as preparing the actual agenda for meetings of the NEC.
Those people are the authors of last week’s events. Let’s call them the Fiasco Four.
After the proposal to axe James Dornan had been subjected to all of those checks and balances, and was approved by the NEC, the following day it was reversed as all of a sudden someone came to the realisation that it was not constitutional.
This presents the obvious problem choice of which of the two possibilities is worse: (1) that the people currently charged with running the party are so grossly incompetent that they should resign en masse, or (2) that they simply lied to get themselves out of a hole. I am sure readers can come to their own conclusion.
However, Cathcart was a failed coup at a minor level which was quickly fixed – mere YSI child’s play compared with the real bourach at hand: Edinburgh Central.
Of course, the spinsters will claim that this wasn’t about blocking Joanna Cherry from getting the nomination to contest the Scottish Parliament at the expense of Angus Robertson, whom the seat had been carved up for. They say that the party just can’t afford our MPs wanting to come back home to Scotland, we have the public purse to think about, what an outrage to have too many MPs wanting to get into Holyrood, the last thing we want is an army of staff at hand to support a drive for independence.
But the problem with this narrative is the awkward truth that in the lead-up to the 2016 elections we had 56 MPs, and not a peep was made about dual mandates then. In fact, at any time over the years anyone could’ve taken a proposal to party members to let them make a choice on this.
Internal democracy has been the foundation of the SNP for over 8 decades but even the most fervent of party loyalists have been left with a sour taste over this. The party is in fact hosting a National Assembly this very week– I’m sure it wouldn’t have been that hard to actually seek the views of the party faithful. Heaven forbid our members have a say on such an important matter.
As far as the Cathcart debacle goes, the constitutionality (or rather the apparent lack of it) was actually not that certain – my take is that it is the constitutional right of the NEC to put in place mechanisms to elect more female MSPs – but a mere cover story to disguise the outright incompetence of the process and a politically dim decision.
It is beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt, however, that the decision to effectively block Joanna Cherry (and potentially others) from standing in next year’s Holyrood election is not constitutional.
Some big hitters eg Humza Yousaf and Philippa Whitford have already expressed their unhappiness with the ruling. And just as the party has successfully brought together the Orange Order and the Catholic Church in opposition to the shoddy Hate Crime Bill, even those that have failed to agree on anything for the past year because of lines drawn over the controversial GRA reforms have called a truce, with recent former Westminster Depute Leader Kirsty Blackman (who may or not fancy a move herself) speaking out in support of Cherry.
And of course, after a poll of members of the Angus Robertson campaign team hosted at SNP HQ, even the person that was to be beneficiary of the move has been forced into calling for the decision to be reversed.
Na h-Eileanan an lar MP Angus MacNeil called on the NEC to recruit his “Plan B” colleague Chris McEleny, apparently an expert in the party’s constitution, to sort the mess out. McEleny’s view was that the decision wasn’t competent because it’s in breach of the party’s NEC standing orders, and therefore unconstitutional.
On checking the standing orders it seems he’s right – indeed, so much so it’s actually now completely unbelievable that the Fiasco Four allowed a situation to occur that they surely knew was contrary to standing orders, yet they also allowed the Cherry blocking strategy to proceed.
The standing orders are quite simple to understand if a bit long-winded to explain. The NEC is supposed to operate on the same rules as the party’s conference. Any member familiar with conference will know that someone can propose a resolution and get it seconded. If nobody really cares about it or if it’s popular it gets passed unanimously by acclaim (people clapping).
If people don’t agree they can propose an amendment. (Think back to the Growth Commission debate and you’ll remember lots of amendments can be proposed.) If you think there’s the meat on the bones of a policy but it needs finessed you can propose it is remitted back for further consideration. And if you are completely opposed you can propose the infamous “direct negative”, a tactic often used by conference veteran Gerry Fisher to get some speaking time.
So, one by one you vote on the amendments, the remit back and the direct negative. If any of the amendments wins a simple majority, the motion as amended almost always then gets passed unanimously. But what we don’t do is have a Single Transferable Vote (STV) election to determine which of a whole raft of proposals and amendments get adopted – firstly because that’s not what the rules say, and secondly because that’s a terrible way to use STV that it was never designed for.
The NEC works exactly the same. So, if someone did want to propose a motion they’d do so. The relevant questions would be asked and if it wasn’t opposed then that’s that. If someone wanted to propose an amendment(s), or remit it back, or propose the direct negative you would go through the process exactly as set out as above.
So that’s what happened with Joanna Cherry and Edinburgh Central, then? Erm, no… there was a vote on whether to do nothing or do something. This vote was so tight it had to be held twice. No motion was raised.
At the second count the NEC voted to do something about dual mandates as opposed to just leaving the issue be. Even though standing orders were at this point already on their way to the shredder, you would think at this point someone would move a motion that would be subject to the standard procedures detailed above.
Instead, Scotland’s party of government decided to have a SurveyMonkey poll on the pre-prepared options, which were presumably drafted by the corporate compliance manager (we weren’t told). If you’re not familiar with SurveyMonkey, it’s the sort of free online polling tool pensioners in care homes use to vote on Christmas dinner options, but the upside of it is that the results are available instantly.
So however shoddy and improper a process this appears, at least you would assume that the meeting would get the results right away, right? Erm, no again. The meeting continued for at least another 30 minutes as we waited on the corporate compliance manager “pulling the results together and collating them”.
The results were flashed for a few brief seconds up on everyone’s screens by the party clerk and lo and behold, the constitution was overwritten: if Joanna Cherry wanted to stand in the Holyrood election she’d need to resign her Westminster seat months in advance to contest the nomination. And of course, no decent employer/human being is going to make all their staff unemployed in the current climate.
So where are we now? As things are, the decision stands. Any half-competent QC would have a field day contesting it but I imagine our QCs in the party are rather more interested in beating Boris Johnson in court than having to take their own party there, so that’s not going to happen.
A farce, a shambles, an incompetent and unconstitutional mess. We need our leader to step in now and sort it.
While you’re at it tell them that they’re acting like the untouchable establishment that the Labour Party used to be.
Purge long overdue.
Ta anon.
Sounds like things are as bad in the NEC as we had all feared.
We certainly need *a* leader to step in and sort it out. The question is; do we have a leader that *wants* to sort it?
” We need our leader to step in now and sort it.”
I think he’s on the case, but has a book to finish first.
Will the ringmaster step up and crack the whip with the NEC
Plot:
“a secret plan made by several people to do something that is wrong, harmful, or not legal, especially to do damage to a person or a government”:
link to dictionary.cambridge.org
The leader has not even contested the Douglas Ross once in a generation signature lie (as far as I know this Tuesday morning). This will now become an uncontested truth. You can’t really be of the opinion that the FM is going to do anything about this shambles. I say this with the deepest regret.
Yeah, the parasites on the back of Independence will slowly get wrenched off – Hopefully.
Our leader is too busy crying with rage at the packed pubs.
. . . and the Chief Executive needs to take responsibility and stand down
“The last thing we want is an army of members at hand to support the drive for Independence”
My heart literally sank reading those words.
Rev was right all along .We were right to listen. Our fears have been confirmed.
Are you still a member funding these people? Get out now.
I will rejoin when the party is cleansed of ineptitude and borderline corruption. Not before.
Let’s reclaim our party.
My thanks to the brave article writer. Aultbea yes let’s hope the parasites do get removed before they wreck everything.
It’s all happening under Murrell and Sturgeon’s watch. The buck stops with them!
It’s those two who need their heids banging together. Sort it out now, or resign. Do not destroy the SNP, as well as the chances of indy ref 2.
This has been a festering sore ever since Nicola took over the party leadership. The bulk of the membership are very unhappy with the Newco members running the show.
We need a clear out!
Are we at 54% because of the SNP (Leadership) OR in spite of it?
The YES movement must have tears in their eyes when they see the golden opportunities for indpendence being squandered day-in-day-out.
AS, Joanna C, Dr Whitford and more, the talent at our fingertips being wasted by a cabal of utter self-centred job-sitters and wokist loonies.
Democratic:
“relating to, appealing to, or available to the broad masses of the people”:
link to merriam-webster.com
Sorry I meant Aulbea1
Un-Be-Fuckin-Levable.
Or is that Unsurprising ????
Christ Knows but this needs bottomed out.
Next conference will be a doozy.
Every SNP msp and mp should be working together, they’re not independents, there seems that there’s no control over anything that happens, far to much pen pushers, red tape and career politicians who seem to have forgotten what their in Buisness for, Scotland’s independence.
Well,well. Very interesting. The NEC ruling as to double mandates must be reversed. We must keep up pressure on all in official positions in the SNP.
Does anyone think this NEC meeting went ahead without either Mr or Mrs Murrell knowing it was going to happen?
Their subsequent silence on the matter is deafening.
But we do have “If Sturgeon said keech was chocolate I’d eat it” Dave McEwan Hill and the other usual Sturgeon propagandists given prominence in the SNP’s mouthpiece, The National.
Breeks @ 9.51am
OUCH!! Another brilliant post young man.
This whole moger is so-typically Scottish: |We’re winning, time to score an own goal.”
The problem for me is if we all leave, we’re lost ( should have used much stronger word). The constitution is everything. We can’t leave. We need a clean out. The party belongs to us, not the FFour. The FFour want to turn our Scottish Utopia, in to Dystopia. Stu been warning us for years.
Hey Breeks, I like your comment about the Boss being too busy. Made me chuckle. I have faith though that Nicola can do this.
Thankyou anonymous writer. Can someone ask Craig Murray to tell us who the writer is? Of to look up the four SNP job titles!
“The standing orders are quite simple to understand if a bit long-winded to explain. The NEC is supposed to operate on the same rules as the party’s conference.”
Okey dokey. So the NEC didn’t operate on the same rules as the Party conference. Seems clear. And not too long-winded… thanks…
Whoever looks into this incompetent voting procedure needs to look at how easily a cabal could (and maybe has) overcome the open and democratic principles of the SNP. It really does look as if some people are working hard to tarnish the brand. That needs to be halted immediately.
There is an existential battle for Scotland’s future going on all around us, and we have a desparate need for the SNP to get its act together and get back in the fray. Jan 1st 2021 is going to be no picnic.
The Thick Of It here
The Thick Of It there
link to twitter.com
I’m with defo at 9.40. We MUST purge the fiasco four from the NEC.
And possibly the party.
Along with Humza if he continues his hate crime speech fiasco.
link to thenational.scot
Aye Gerry wasn’t far wrong just his point of contempt was to the EU. How bloody awful.
Been a while since I took a leap backwards away from social media because of all this shite. I don’t know about anyone else but for the first time in a while I feel the day got a little bitty brighter.
That bulb is flickering. About time we had someone try to fix it…
This is embarrassing! I’m embarrassed and I had fuck all to do with it!
If as the author notes the SNP have to rely on the likes of Mackay to avoid a confidence vote defeat, that very action in itself will be a disaster.
It is brave for an NEC member to even consider raising the issues publicly. That shows us that some people have retained their principles.
Meanwhile Mrs Murrell’s tweets centre around her favourite Summer reading lists.
If Salmond was FM, would his tweets (with a No-Deal Brexit just a few months away) be on his favourite summer reading?
Someone wake me from this nightmare.
Fiasco Four? I suppose I’ll need to wait for Danni G’s next column to find out. However, I would be curious as to whether any members of that group were involved in the plot to frame Salmond?
Thank you anonymous for informing us of what really happens within the NEC, on occasion, this fiasco is surely an embarrassment for the party, as you say it needs to be sorted out quickly.
In my opinion we need all our best and brightest MPs or MSPs at Holyrood, its our parliament our seat of power our people look towards it, for guidance, and hope for the future.
Astonished @9.40
“We MUST purge the fiasco four from the NEC.
And possibly the party.”
Its already begun from the bottom up.Things are moving.
The SNP have been well and truly infiltrated.
@Beaker,
Many have retained their principles, but when you have people at the top running a party to their own agendas rather than for their members it doesn’t work no matter how loyal some members may be.
I have seen some Indepenence supporters and SNP members indulge in amazing contortions to justify what is currently happening in the SNP.
How do we get them out is the real question.?
[…] Wings Over Scotland The Fix This post was written by an SNP NEC member present at last week’s controversial […]
Embarrassing, pathetic and would look bad in a school panel. But, hey, SurveyMonkey. That was funny
Margaret E says:
4 August, 2020 at 9:56 am
Not only that Margaret, but Ross made a claim that the undemocratically unelected House of Lords is more democratic than our own Holyrood chamber.
To his credit Keith Brown refuted both absurdities.
Ross hasn’t even taken over from the incompetent Carlaw, but he’s already matching him for lies, a proud Tory trait.
@Graf Midgehunter (10.08) –
‘Are we at 54% because of the SNP (Leadership) OR in spite of it?’
Have been asking meself this for months.
NS diehards keep pointing to her unassailable lead over BJ due to pandemic-handling skills as proof that she’s doing a braw job and we’re whingeing spoilsports if we even dare suggest that she isn’t, but what would that number be if she was *also* vocal on securing indy? Why are they mutually exclusive? Makes no sense at all at all at all…
🙁
Additionally, the use of SurveyMonkey effectively makes the vote on the ‘motion’ a secret ballot.
I am sure the SNP constitution specifically reserves secret ballots for office-bearer elections and are not permitted for policy/procedural matters.
“‘Are we at 54% because of the SNP (Leadership) OR in spite of it?’”
Given the circumstances of the last three years we should be at 65% by now, minimum.
“I suppose I’ll need to wait for Danni G’s next column to find out. However, I would be curious as to whether any members of that group were involved in the plot to frame Salmond?”
At least one of them (Ian McCann, the corporate compliance manager) is explicitly identified as such. DOESN’T ANYONE *EVER* CLICK THE LINKS?
Are we at 54% because of the SNP (Leadership) OR in spite of it?
no, we are at 54% more due, i think,. to the Westminster government and their general appearance of lack of competency and contempt for Scotland.
Why has no one from SNP contested Douglas Ross’ lie – I thought we had a press office and someone in place to counteract the lies. It is all the Unionists have left and they must be called out.
We need a leader who will clear out the plot makers, the GRA reformers, the hate bill makers and all the others who have their own agendas which is not independence.
This has to be done soon or we will have neither Joanna Cherry or Angus Robertson standing in Edinburgh and we will deserve to be a laughing stock, and in the meantime Douglas and Ruthie will have free reign to lie and re-write history in the press and on the BBC.
`Kirsty Blackman speaking out in support of Joanna Cherry.`
from reading the tweet i don`t see that as my conclusion,
unless i am misunderstanding the whole thing,
Will our leader sack her husband for gross incompetence?
Not a hope in hell. That’s the issue. If she can’t sack her own husband then how can she sack others for the same poor judgement. Double edged sword.
“We need our leader to step in now and sort it”.
I have a feeling it was “our leader” who instigated this God awfull mess. I realy do not think things will get any better in the car crash SNP, until “our leader” becomes “our ex-leader”
We do Stu, but some of us have paying work to do too. No time for slow reading.
🙂
More of the same please, it looks like something is moving. At last.
@Scot Finlayson,
Kirsty Blackman gave interviews supporting Joanna. Various articles like the Herald.
“Any half-competent QC would have a field day contesting it but I imagine our QCs in the party are rather more interested in beating Boris Johnson in court than having to take their own party there, so that’s not going to happen.”
Exquisite sentence there. Thank you for writing this piece and I hope you get no blow back for doing so. The whole thing is appalling and the entrists need to be dealt with pronto. Looks like my decision to put my list vote elsewhere is the right one. The SNP need a good kick up the bahookie.
Dave Beveridge 9:47
“used to be”?
Anon writes…
“We need our leader to step in now and sort it.”
Does the SNP have such a thing?
If a sack full of rats at each others throats doesn’t need a “Leader” then why would the SNP?
History has taught these people nothing – too many factions, too many cliques, too many personal agendas, too much back-stabbing and sniping. If ever there were a party doomed to failure, disintegration and a period in the wilderness, it’s the current SNP.
Those who doubt Lord Acton’s words that “Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely” need only look to the individuals at the top of the SNP to see the living, breathing proof of it.
McCann is very much part of the problem, not part of the solution. I had an exchange of emails with him when I protested their treatment of Gareth Wardell. McCann was all possible assistance short of actual help. He was more than happy to see Gareth subjected to a political lynching while totally failing to engage with the general point that the allegations against Gareth were bogus.
I knew at that point the SNP were not a party I could be part of.
Now the broader public are seeing that not only is there is something of the night about these people, they are almost comically incompetent as well. The stable won’t muck itself out, the party’s rank and file membership has to do it, and quickly!
I said yesterday that I will never do another thing to help raise the profile of Nicola Sturgeon and today I stand by that decision.
Because all we are doing is guaranteeing we have another five years of more of the same.
Sturgeon has hijacked the SNP/Yes Movement and uses it as a vehicle to keep her in power
The connection between Sturgeon and the Yes Movement needs to be broken,,, immediately.
Otherwise we will never get off this crazy corrupt merry-go-round.
Anyone in the mood for a march???
No, me neither.
Graf Midgehunter says:
4 August, 2020 at 10:08 am
Are we at 54% because of the SNP (Leadership) OR in spite of it?
Think back to the immediate buzz of expectation there was when the SNP walked out of Westminster. “At last!” said the long suffering YES supporters. There was a hunger for it to mean something, … but it didn’t, and the bang of defiance turned into a whimper of dull conformity when they all trooped in the next day to resume their seats.
I can’t quite figure Ian Blackford. He says the right things about sovereign constitution, and clearly walking out Westminster is a thing he will do, but… somehow he does it ineffectively, like with the volume turned down at 1 or 2, when it really needs turned up to 11.
Mortifying! They all ( the woke cabal and careerists) must go.
When the SNP never fought against brexit to keep Scotland in Europe, that’s really when everyone should have clicked, what a farce.
‘We need our leader to step in now and sort it.’
She’ll have to read the Constitution first. @Nicola, s2 is interesting – that’s the bit about independence.
I think Stu is correct. We should be at 65% not 54%.
WM is an open goal for Scotland right now. Brexit, Boris and the Covid disaster down there. The whole of Scotland should be scunnered not just 54%. Nicola has he weakest leader since Gordon Brown to take on. Sure Boris has the numbers, but he has no credibility and is as thick as shit.
Strangely that fat lump of Tory lard has still managed to outflank Nicola. Why is that?
Because Nicola is too concerned with her own career and her credibility in the RUK and the MSM. In other words she is thin skinned when it comes to taking criticism from the biased media. The media are just playing with Nicola at the moment , because even they can’t put a positive case for that oaf in number 10.
She will be spat out as soon as the pandemic is over. The fact that Boris thinks Douglas Ross is the man to take on the SNP, shows the depth of his ineptitude and ignorance.
This softly softly lets all be nice to Boris during the pandemic is wrong. Nicola should be taking him on over Brexit and his refusal to accept democracy over a section 30.
It’s entirely credible to work towards independence while dealing with a health crisis. Nicola has found it convenient not to talk about independence, because she has no answer to the Section 30 refusal.
That right there is our problem!
@Rev Stuart Campbell 11:06
In fairness, Stuart, some of us have a slight difficulty in distinguishing between black text and the dark blue of the link. That means they can be easily missed. Any chance you could change the link colour to red (or something a bit more pronounced) please?
Can’t remember if WordPress lets you apply an underline to links but, that might also help if possible.
Cheers.
Breeks- Blackford is a blow hard.
He is like a football manager who talks like a winner, but sits at the bottom of the table because he plays like a loser.
And as for the anonymity of the author,,,I am sure others on the secret society they call the NEC, will soon figure out who this is and proceed to have said author removed from the NEC with immediate effect.
I hope I am wrong,,,but watch this space.
Good luck, whoever you are.
If you wanted any proof the SNP has been infiltrated by those who would have been in Labour you can see no better example. We have seen these small minority interest groups try and grab control of Labour in the past. These people are interested in power and their pet crusades, unfortunately independence is way down their list of priorities, if it is even on their list at all.
The perfect recipe, Labour principle devotees add a few woke woo-woos and a couple UK government infiltrators and what do you have, a cake with no independence at its heart.
There does seem to be something rotten in the upper echelons of the SNP at present.
It’s easy enough to figure out/find out who those four are. Frankly, anyone paying attention over the years would realise they aren’t exactly on top of their game.
The re-organisation removed a lot of power from members, many of whom did not understand what it would mean for the party. Gerry Fisher did though; such a pity that he was made a figure of fun by the Business Manager, so instead of actually listening, a lot of members viewed his time as entertainment. More fool them.
Time to start thinking and SNP membership should be, to quote a phrase, moving to “take back control”. A start would be wholesale demands to sack at least those four (incompetence should be enough), and then some, from the NEC. NEC have had people thrown out of the party for far less.
Such a debacle but on a smaller scale was supported, encouraged and facilitated at the toxic Coatbridge & Chryston branch to ensure nepotism prevailed to cover each other’s incompetence and dodgy practices. AGM rules misinterpreted, changed, aborted and HQ arranged online vote to elect the local MSP’s ‘approved’ family, employees and friends for branch officer positions – all resided over by Kirsten Oswald as an ‘independent’ candidate briefed to the hilt by HQ!
‘Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King;’
The Declaration of Arbroath 1320.
“ So the decision to restrict or debar candidates was made on agenda to be discussed over a period of two months, based upon papers written by the party’s corporate compliance manager, signed off by a CEO, sent to a Business Convener who chaired the meeting , before finally being given the OK by the National Secretary who is guardian of the Constitution and who responsibility for adjudicating on the interpretation of that Constitution, as well as preparing the actual agenda for meetings of the NEC”
The guilty apparatchiks wielding power, playing fast and loose with procedure, disregarding the constitution. These people are dirty soiled goods. They cannot be allowed to continue in post. But on whose instruction did they operate.
Nicola Sturgeon must take immediate steps to tell them to stand down forthwith. This is a signal she must send. To do otherwise would reduce her standing, show her to be partisan, show herself to be complicit.
She must send that signal as her ministers scurry for cover.
O/T
I hope we are all ready for the BBC Scotland ‘Exam Scandal’ exposure (Disclosure programme to follow up soon), it will follow as night follows day I suspect. It’s a change from hospitals but maintains the Scotland is shite narrative. The impression will be that John Swinney personally graded every paper.
This chimes with my experience of the conduct committee. Everything is political Angus McLeod is the fixers. There is no logic, fairness or constitution. Angus McLeod acts with impunity. The question is on whose behalf does he carry our his manipulation – himself, The woke cabal, Peter Murrell or Nicola Sturgeon
If Sturgeon doesn’t step in to sort of the cabal she wanted this to happen she does not want Cherry at HR
@ Patricia Spencer, 11.47am
Aye, a useful fool will always do what they are told no matter whether right or wrong.
SiU love this stuff.
Is Peter Murrell, Scotland’s own Dominic Cummings?
@Lomax,
As I said before there are some who tolerate anything.
When incompetence is uncovered, as it often is throughout the general U.K. body-politic and in the business sphere, I shudder to think of the incompetence inherent to those who make the decisions regarding the employment of key executives. Yet again, it would seem, we’ve have been presented with another bunch of fucking duffers at the very heart of an organisation.
Alex Salmond should never have resigned in 2014. Sturgeon has passed up golden opportunities to attain independence and has surrounded herself with poor quality people.
McConnell and Co got themselves into a similar situation.
I wonder how that ended up?
Balls up appears to be the answer ,
The coverup as in Watergate causes the Ballsup explanation to pale into insignificance its not the original mistake that causes the damage it’s the cover up
When will people in the politics business learn from others past experiences as in this case probably never, rewind to Alex’s masterminded political assassination same stupidity
@Bob Mack says:
4 August, 2020 at 10:55 am
“Many have retained their principles, but when you have people at the top running a party to their own agendas rather than for their members it doesn’t work no matter how loyal some members may be.”
Yeah that’s true. I was thinking along the lines when Robin Cook resigned. Brave decision to make but the correct one.
does anybody know who the plants from westminster are my money is on the murrells ever since she took over the party has crashed think about all the times out dear leader has been down there and when she comes back theres more F$%kups so glad I got out
Is it incompetence or arrogance on the part of our leaders?
Three own goals scored
Hate Bill… 1 goal down
GRA…. 2 goals down
NEC incompetence…3 goals down
If it was a football match the team and supporters would be on the bus home.
Interesting that NS is finding the time to address students directly and offer reassurance in the sad event that they didn’t get what they wanted.
Of course, they’ve been adversely affected by the bug so their recent hardship is relevant in a bug update. But shouldn’t that sympathy also apply to the bulk of her supporters who put her where she is and have been growing increasingly anxious over how the bug has, apparently, killed indy stone-dead?
Don’t we deserve a toty bit of reassurance?
Jfmgw
Probably nailed it Labour succumbed to the same problems,
I worked in a successful company that took over another company that failed, the staff were absorbed into our company it didn’t take long to figure out why the company that were taken over failed it was just like being infected, our company suffered the same demise not long after and I believe it could be traced back to the decision to absorb ingrained problems,
Most of the new members were mostly previous Labour voters or involved in running the Labour Party and the SNP have welcomed them with open arms, careful what you wish for i.e. Bigger membership , equals bigger problem
Witchy says:
4 August, 2020 at 12:33 pm
Is it incompetence or arrogance on the part of our leaders?
Three own goals scored
Hate Bill… 1 goal down
GRA…. 2 goals down
NEC incompetence…3 goals down
If it was a football match the team and supporters would be on the bus home.
nope just pure greed if thats them now wait till after independence what crap have they got lined up knowing we cant do anything about it as we will all be in jail for just thinking about speaking out
get out and stay out I LIKE THAT YES I LIKE THAT A LOT and when you are out lock the bloody door
@Ian Brotherhood,
You really have to wonder at the sheer incompetence of running a party dedicated to Independence and somewhere along the line take a conscious decision to keep Independence at the bottom of the agenda.
This may be an attempt to win over Unionist voters to an inclusive atmosphere, but it is misguided to say the least.
This decision is the very heart of all thd troubles we see today in the SNP. All of them can be traced back.
Ignoring the constitution of the party will inevitably create unrest among members and indeed senior figures within the party. That unrest should have been easily predicted. It wasnt.
They took their power for granted and inevitably their members as well.
Playing a blinder? Aye, right.
The boy Brexit has put a great cross into the box but there’s no-one on the end of it.
Rev – maybe set the links up to open in a new tab as well? Maybe folk are getting put off by being taken off your site? It puts me off anyway. 🙂
Hi Dave Beveridge.
I’m using Firefox on my MacPro. If I middle-click a link, it opens in a new tab.
Things just seem to get worse and worse but nothing seems to get done to stop it though I live in hope as they say the dullest morn often ends in the fairest day ???
” we want is an army of staff at hand to support a drive for independence.”
I disagree with the nec decision for exactly this. maybe 5 years ago the idea of all womens list or new blood might have been justified, but not now.
we are now coming down to the wire. we have enough big hitters. bring them back. now is not the time to stand unknown newbies anywhere.
have a look at eg the Lib dem msps, who is gonna stand against them? who would be the best candidates to do so? some unknown? or eg Angus MacNeil, Dr Philippa whitford?
its a no brainer
the point about mps resigning to take up msp position forcing douglas ross to resign is moot. i doubt very much if he would. if that is the case, it will be difficult for him to criticise snp mps for doing the same.
I wondered, when so many high profile mps complained about nec’s decision, what would happen? now we know. I think nec will get overturned. good
@Ron Maclean at 12:47 pm
Indeed, I suspect the Conniving Rotters and Their Perpetuation of Gloom think “Playing a blinder” is trying to get as much of their own agenda sneaked through without anybody knowing it!
I await Thy Bunghole Homey to trot in any moment now to correct Stu’s assertion that Indy should now be polling at 65% minimum…
@SC,
Why did you miss out the first three words of that sentence?
“The last thing” we want.
@jfngw says:
4 August, 2020 at 11:59 am
“I hope we are all ready for the BBC Scotland ‘Exam Scandal’ exposure (Disclosure programme to follow up soon), it will follow as night follows day I suspect. It’s a change from hospitals but maintains the Scotland is shite narrative. The impression will be that John Swinney personally graded every paper.”
It’s already causing a shitstorm on Twitter.
The Murrells have been nobbled by the english establishment, along with Wishart and Robertson.
In the same way the IRA political wing got infiltrated and nobbled.
The guy Hume who died yesterday, was the one who persuaded Gerry Adams that remaining within the UK was the best way forward.
The same thing is happening in Scottish Politics right now.
I resigned from the party as this was the last straw.
I wonder how many more paying members they lost over this and all the other nonsense they have been up to.
The SNP will slide downhill unless drastic action is taken to clear out the bad and the useless including anyone light on independence.
It is beginning to smell like the Labour Party.
Perhaps we need a large crowd of wingers to turn up with memberships at a few branches stir things up a little, unannounced you understand.
Bob Mack says:
Why did you miss out the first three words of that sentence?
“The last thing” we want.
———————
because i DO want the big hitters from wm to come north for the holyrood election.
whether the mps agree to resign their wm seats if selected or the nec decision is overturned, i couldnt care, only that they do come north
@Dan 1:01pm
The stooges will soon ride again
Pretty explosive stuff! And very brave of the writer to give the inside story.
Makes you wonder… if they can’t wrap their heads round their own constitution, how the bloody hell are they gonna navigate the country towards independence.
On the other hand, maybe they’re just corrupt self serving bastards…hmmm who else do we call self serving.
The SNP need cleaned out from top to bottom – what a farce!
The reported outcome of the NEC resulted in two things.
1) they stated a rule regarding a vacated seat as applying when the circumstances had changed. There was less of a reversal an more of a don’t be fucking stupid.
2) they introduced a rule that a cynic might interpret at blocking a particular MP from standing by requiring her to stand down before the election.
The problem is,
link to d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net
26.1 The National Executive Committee shall draw up and maintain Rules and Standing Orders covering
the following:
(b) selection of candidates to stand at any election in the name of the Party;
26.3 All such Rules and Standing Orders shall be submitted to the National Council or Conference for
amendment and/or adoption.
Which means that they can only propose such rules. It’s up to other bodies in the SNP, including the members, to put them into effect.
What can be described is a coup attempt where the NEC were pretending they weren’t the equivalent of EU Commissioners who propose rules and laws but do not have the final say on whether they come into effect.
The NEC may very well be able to influence or even outright reject any candidate for any election. This lot tried to be sneaky and hide behind rules one of which they had the brass neck to create for the occasion.
The party machine that has done the snp well over decade’s is broken.the custodians are self serving and corrupt.we need a clear out and fast.mr Morrell is the CEO therefore shoulders the responsibly of this shambles.and should resign asap.to my mind he seems to be running a quasi goverment from the kitchen at bute house.he is there solely by dint of being married to the first minister.he is quite prepared to sacrifice mps msps and good party workers.to maintain that position.even to the point of putting innocent men in jail.this can only be possible by allowing certain individuals.im looking at daddy from stirling and his young team.and the gra gang a free hand to exploit the snp for there own personal agendas.we all know they are there.who and how many is the problem.we need someone to stand up and point these people out.lets get our party back.
I see that even the most ardent, dyed in the wool, mad mental Sturgeon supporters who frequent Wings are very silent today, regarding their support for her.
Here pussy pussy pussy!!!
Has the Cat got your tongue???
Your leader already tried to ‘sort it ‘ and look at the result.
“In order to become the master, the politician wil! often pose as the servant”. Charles De Gaul.
We have several imposters in our midst right now.
the clown picture is very apt …
I feel like we have just had a FIRST LOOK UNDER John Wayne Gacy’s HOUSE …
shocker!
not atall, im more than happy if nec’s decision is overturned and the mps can stand for holyrood
clearing out nec? meh, who cares, i didnt know who these people were before, (same as everyone else, voters & snp members) and i doubt anyone will miss them
Describing Nicola’s success over Covid- 19. Is a bit like a football team claiming success for not conceding goals , but never winning a game.
It seems that Scotland is destined to spend it’s life under Nicola’a leadership defending , rather than attacking and scoring.
You know what happens to managers who never win games? Fans soon get bored with mid table drudgery.
You could accurately describe Nicola as the Craig Levein of the independence movement.
There is no ‘connection’ between Sturgeon and the Yes movement.
I’m still up for joining a mass demonstration outside Bute House, if the AUOB fancy organising one.
Or a similar competent organization who can put together demonstrations.
Or do the AUOB not want to rock the boat???
Nicola Sturgeon, The AUOB,,, every single one of them is on this fuckin Gravy Train.
@cat
Don’t think you’re getting what I said,
The NEC could decide up front that they can reject any candidate for any seat and if they had done so then that would be, relatively, fine.
What they can’t do is create a rule and then impose it.
They have to man up and actually take the flack for their decisions.
It’s a bit like the sketch from Little Britain where the character says “Computer Says No”, except that it’s only saying that because these fuckers programmed it to say that. Or at least are trying to do so.
If Alec Salmond was still First Minister does anyone imagine we would be this far up to our neck in it?
Ask yourself this.
Who gets 56 MPS at WM, a majority at Holyrood with the Greens, Then wins the Euro and Brexit referendum. Then gets another WM majority….then another..and still can’t get a fecking referendum?
There are two possible answers-
1) Someone who has no intention of getting independence.
2) Someone who has no tactical nous other than repeat , repeat ,
repeat a failed strategy.
In both answers the “who” needs to get removed.
If I was La Garavelli I might feel free to make an observation about what looks like an oddity in that Telegraph article linked to the SNP’s “Corporate Compliance Officer” (what a ghastly title).
Not being La G, it could be unwise to do so.
@orri
i do understand what your saying.
my point is that regardless of the rules, if there is enough will to overturn necs decision, then it will happen
good
to that end
Angus B MacNeil MP @AngusMacNeilSNP·3h
Ooft so according to this the Glasgow Cathcart back pedal was, expediency!! … And seems the lack of similar move in Edinburgh Central is stubbornness adding to ganging-up bullying by NEC. Leadership needed to stop this festering any longer.
Angus tweets this with a link to this article
I really hope some of the 54 percenters start to wake up and not continuously trot out this poll result as some kind of nirvana; while at the same time blatantly ignore the stench of shit that’s happening within the party.
One sniff of this crap with the general public and that poll result will evaporate.
Time to sort out the party’s dodgy internal politicking and what seems like corruption (not just NEC but also the actors involved in the AS stitch-up), officially dump the GRA and Hate Crime Bill.
The SNP cannot energise the country behind them for the HR 2021 election until these issues are finally put to bed.
Having said that, I still think we need a List Party mainly because they’re too caught up in their own bubble. Leopards can’t change spots and all that….
@Big Jock
we can call a referendum (decision by the courts on this -see Maugham case- in 12hrs)
but bojo can refuse a s30
no matter, a referendum isnt the only means of asking the will of the people. we can also do that with an election
Where is Sturgeon in all of this? What exactly is her definition of a leader? Seems like she’s trying to copy Teflon Blair in so many ways. He may not have single handedly destroyed Labour but he sure as hell didn’t try to stop it from happening. Got into power then got too busy playing the big stages. Sounds familiar.
I remember very clearly the words of Salmond, when the false accusations were made against him.
A reporter asked him if he had any comments to make about Nicola Sturgeon’s involvement in the case. With absolute dignity he said:” Nicola needs to concentrate on getting independence”.
To me that was a barbed comment about Nicola’s lack of progress. He refused to be drawn into a personal battle with her. Instead he fired a shot across the bows for her to hear.
What is particularly interesting is if you sit down and analyse the qualities, mind, contributions, potential of someone like Joanna Cherry (whose politics I do not share, mind).
Then forensically look separately at each member of the Fiasco Four. What they have done, what they might do one day for their country, for their citizens, for others. For independence.
I think it is an example of “night and day”!
Another example would be when Craig Murray was turned down as an SNP candidate – and remember the briefings against him in the anti-indy media… by SNP officials. If you sit down and look at what they have brought to the table and what potential they have for bringing anything to the table, you get another of those “night and day” contrasts.
I would say that it is only really worth having Cherry and the good Dr Philippa Whitford in Westminster (note: none of them originally professional politicians, but rose to high levels in their first-choice careers). I know some like Alison Thewliss, but I have heard her speak in the chamber and, when she has had an open goal, she has lapsed into “wokespeak” (however, she was very good, I recall, once against the Maybot in PMQ).
Interesting that all my examples are women [Western Isles MP would add]… yet the SNP policy is to cancel women! Honestly, if the UK were to set up an “SNP project” to co-opt the indy movement, they could not have dreamt, not in their wildest dreams, of enjoying the good services of the Fiasco Four.
Schrodinger – I am with you on that.
If Nicola had any balls she would have told Boris she would call a HR election if he refused a section 30 again. But the inconvenient truth is that the no answer suits Nicola. It meant she could blame WM and say” Look I tried guys”.
All this Gold Standard crap was part of the deception. WM could say no forever. Even if the courts find in our favour ,they can’t make Boris comply.
She is dealing in domestic law. When she should be dealing in international law. That’s what nationhood is about , and it’s how nations become free.
People who don’t meet Nicola’s approval get chucked under a bus. That’s loyalty for you!
@Big Jock
i’ve been trying to start a discussion on here for weeks concerning bringing forward the holyrood election to before jan 1st.
i’ve been told it cant be done cos it needs 66% support in holyrood. i’m not convinced it cant be done
wings used to be good at this sort of thing
@BJ
it’s how nations become free.
a prerequisite is a majority vote in a plebicite.
45% support is big, but would be ignored by everyone
Schrod- James Kelly wrote a whole article about the process.
Firstly the First Minister would resign.
Then what happens is the rest of the parliament are given the chance to nominate a new first minister. So essentially the Tories et al , would nominate a new leader. Because of the numbers the opposition could never win the vote. So it would go back to the start of the process over and over. It could go on forever, but realistically it would probably be one chance and then there are 28 days to make a decision.
After 28 days the Queen would be asked to dissolve parliament.
Early Holyrood elections-
Why not as Labour and Tory are always saying
They are a better option than SNP and it’s what the
People want.
Let’s ask them to prove it if they want to t still the people of Scotland.
It only helps our cause when they run off scared.
@SC,
“Wings USED to be good at this sort of thing”
Boy that’s some deflection. Wings is too busy trying to expose the corruption as ineptitude at the top of the SNP right now. No doubt be will focus on other things at the right time.
but realistically it would probably be one chance and then there are 28 days to make a decision.
i thought they only got 14 days to form a new government? and realistically, it could go on forever? if thats true, then most likely the unionists would drag it on forever.
if they did, could nicola retake power and ensure the holyrood election in may 2021 did take place?
@SC & BigJock
My recollection of previous discussions about this with those on the know (including input from former PO) was that there were 2 routes: 1) 2/3 vote for it in Holyrood, or 2) the FM steps down and if no alternative candidate can command a majority the PO is obliged to call new elections within “x” days.
So…it’s feasible, but incredibly unlikely in practice from a gradualist like the current FM.
@bob
fine then deflect, but i have been trying to discuss this since before the nec stuff broke
lesley riddoch now asking for nec to be over ruled
S Cat
… any legislation required for elections should be in place six months before the election (and it follows that no new electoral legislation should be introduced in this six month period)
link to archive.is
@Bob Mack 1:31 pm
““In order to become the master, the politician wil! often pose as the servant”. Charles De Gaul”.
We have several imposters in our midst right now“.
I know. they’re all over the thread.
@MBP,
Nothing to say about the article then? Or has The Cat
got your tongue?
I imagine had there been fewer SNP MPs, all of the SNP MPs would be free to contest seats for the Scottish Parliament. Perhaps they can all become a part of an elected, second tier legislature of Scottish government? For example, Joanna Cherry with her skills would make a good leader of a Scottish Senate.
I can’t remember if it’s 28 days or 14 days to form a new government.
However the six months to call an election , is only for a normal election. Not an emergency one where the leader actually just resigns.
Found this information online:
If Parliament itself resolves that it should be dissolved, with at least two-thirds of the Members (i.e. 86 Members) voting in favour, the Presiding Officer proposes a date for an extraordinary general election and the Parliament is dissolved by the monarch by royal proclamation.[18]
If Parliament fails to nominate one of its members to be First Minister within 28 days, irrespective of whether at the beginning or in the middle of a parliamentary term.[18] Therefore, if the First Minister resigned, Parliament would then have 28 days to elect a successor and if no new First Minister was elected then the Presiding Officer would ask for Parliament to be dissolved. This process could also be triggered if the First Minister lost a vote of confidence by a simple majority, as they must then resign. To date the Parliament has never held a confidence vote on a First Minister.
Nevertheless, no extraordinary general elections have been held to date. Any extraordinary general elections would be in addition to ordinary general elections, unless held less than six months before the due date of an ordinary general election, in which case they supplant it.[18] However, this would not affect the year in which the subsequent ordinary general election will be held.[18]
@mike cassidy
genuinely not sure what this means
@BJ
this would not affect the year in which the subsequent ordinary general election will be held
??
ok, cut it short, could the holyrood election be brought forward to before jan 1st
not withstanding covid restrictions
Why would anyone want an election with the same Management of the SNP still in place. That only confirms to them that they are untouchable.
For all those that say we must stick with the SNP, that it is the only method of delivering Indy… well the other side of the coin is the SNP must be squeaky clean, it must not be diverted from its purpose
To work day in and day out – in tandem with the YES Movement (lend us your vote) – to deliver Indy for Scotland
and, as the party in Government – Govern competently and skilfully, proving that Yes We Can
The GRA is a vote loser policy, and if you’re for it fine, but Indy first.
The Hate Bill is an incompetent, unworkable threat to free speech – start again, remember Indy first.
Brexit – means we lose our parliament, our whisky industry, our NHS, our workers rights, our food and water quality, our farms, and jobs, jobs, jobs. And pretty much any chance of holding another Indy Ref. Pretty much has to be Indy Now to save us.
So, we could argue about the sufficiency of evidence that one way or another NS and others at the top of the SNP have been nobbled – or look at what ground needs covered and get covering it.
Yesterday we were encouraged to march. Well we also need to use billboards, window stickers, car stickers, T shirts, balloons, lamppost stickers. And since its not coming from the SNP, it will have to be us.
Last week the SNP’s office in Perth – on the main arterial route into Perth – Glasgow Rd, Perth, had their big poster up – the one which said EU’s are welcome in Scotland.
One would almost expect an office with the experience of Roseanna Cunningham (who she, never seen or heard in the area) Pete Wishart, and frequent local Deputy FM John Swinney, one would almost expect that level of experience and service to have finger and pulse somewhere close together, but no, instead we have a big, out of date poster saying EU’s welcome in Scotland.
Dear SNP, I think you”ll find most EU residents are thinking the same as Yes voters, i.e., unless Scotland gets Indy, it’s FUCKED.
Ian Blackford said, ‘Scotland will not be pulled out of the EU against its will’. Well it bloody well will be if the SNP doesn’t sort itself out and pull its finger out its arse.
I never left the SNP, the SNP left me. But I’m still for Indy, are the SNP?
Bob Mack
you dont like nicola, i get it. regardless, she will be leader in the next holyrood election
then again, this thread wasnt about leaders, the question was, is it possible for the holyrood election to be brought forward to before jan 1st?
Schrod – A normal election could be called , if it is done so by December 2020. That would need the approval of 86 members. Jan 2021 would be within the six months so would not be permitted.
However the emergency election is another matter. That is just called when the first minister resigns and no alternative is elected. The six months in that scenario relates to subsequent ordinary election which would have been due.
So if for instance an emergency election was December 2020, then there would still be an ordinary election in May 2021. If it was January 2021 then the emergency election would be taken as the ordinary GE because it as less than six months before it was due.
Just a question: WHO is the SNP “leader” exactly?
Leader, as in leading a party, possibly somewhere?
Because nobody and nothing has moved an inch from 2014, while the scenery has been whizzing past.
The SNP is a rudderless wreck heading for the raggedy rocks of despair.
Abandon ship, folks.
@SC,
No. This thread is about the Fix and who knew about it?
Your very skilful at trying to lure people off-topic cat.
The thread should actually be Do we want an election with the Murrells in charge given what we know?
@BJ
to confirm
he due 6th may, if brought forward to 7th dec then no need for election on 6th may?
@cat
They tried to misuse a rule to bar someone from standing for re-election. Sleekit is the word for that.
The point is there was no rule that an MP had to give up their seat before they could stand for Holyrood. The NEC made one up in order to avoid actually having to make a call as far as Cherry was concerned. The problem is the NEC proposes rules. It has no authority to actually implement them. That is, to a greater or lesser extent, up to the membership.
Basically they’re trying to pull a fast one and, dangerously, convince the SNP membership in general that they have powers they, the NEC, don’t.
They could wriggle out of it by saying that it wasn’t a hard and fast rule as such but rather a guideline. That’s not actually what they were given a remit to do. If Cherry was the best possible candidate to win Davidson’s seat in the next Holyrood election then that is far more important than any Westminster seat where the government currently has a 80 seat majority and her voice is more than likely to ignored along with the rest of the SNP MPs.
The same holds where the incumbent has an advantage in any election such as Dornan.
The NEC aren’t using any form of strategy that might increase the SNP chances at gaining a solid majority at the next Hollyrood election. Instead they seem to be determined to use their position to get silence two voices against their pet projects. Obviously a minority SNP administration needing to trade with the Greens who support the woke agenda whilst allegedly supporting independence is more to their liking.
Conicidentaly, the NEC are in charge of vetting. So they’re far more likely to have, assuming they’re actually good at their jobs, dirt on any of their candidates before their electoral rivals do. So when a candidate signs a Womans Pledge one day and his Tweets are being aired the next day it’s hardly rocket science to conclude that those two events are linked and that there’s a distinct possibility that said information would have come from within the party.
@Big Jock,
Do you want to re,elect the SNP without changes at the top?
I must be slow on the uptake but I’ve read the article twice and I still can’t figure out:
How many were present at the meeting? The Fiasco Four and nobody else?
Why nobody attending the meeting understood rules or did and did not have the balls to say something?
S Cat
If Nicola Sturgeon resigned today
Or lost a vote of confidence today
Or Parliament dissolved itself today
It would be up to Ken McKintosh as Presiding Officer to set a date for an extrordinary general election
He has the ‘power’ to vary a normal election by a month
But its not clear whether this ‘month’ would also be his limitation for calling an EGE.
It seems unlikely it would be more than that in such circumstances
So if one of the above conditions were met
And that’s a big if
A Holyrood election could be held this year
@SC
Nobody apart from you & presumably a handful of zoomers either wants an election ASAP or thinks it is remotely feasible. May 2021 is early enough: it gives us longer to prepare, means the campaign is in better weather, and with any luck gives the adults in the SNP time to ditch the Sturgeonistas, or at least clip their wings after all the recent bourachs!
@orri
i do get it, but i think the pressure to overturn the nec decision is too great, they will back down
as to vetting?, yes nec is responsable, but since all the mps in wm were vetted only last dec, its difficult to see how nec could use this power to block mps
@Stuart Mackay,
The vote was split. Obviously some were against. One of them has spoken out today loud and clear.
The electoral process for Holyrood doesn’t seem to stipulate that the leader needs a majority. It simply states an exhaustive ballot. That means the idea of Ruth Davidson as First Minister might have seemed far fetched but wasn’t impossible. OK so without majority support any FM could be turfed out before they are in place. However that would need a majority to play along. At the same time you’d have no FM during the current crisis and a perfect excuse for Westminster to intervene given, demonstrably, Holyrood had lost it’s collective mind.
@andy
plenty folk would like to see a vote before we leave the eu on 1st jan, ask breeks. is he a zoomer too?
changing snp leaders is a question for snp party members. no one else. will there be a challenge i doubt it, but if there is, it will be members who decide. same as in every party
Forget the Fiasco Four. It’s Sturgeon & Murrell the Dispiriting Duo who are essentially the problem.
@andy
is remotely feasible
————–
that was why i asked the question.
well is it feasable? simple question
Certain MP’s/MSP’s in the SNP are using our Indy vote to keep themselves in a comfortable lifestyle and/or a proxy to further their pet projects such as this anti free speech and anti women laws.
I want independence first and foremost that’s why I joined the party and that’s why I vote for them, I see them as the only party that can deliver that, that’s what they say they’ll do and that’s what I expect them to do,
If Scotland was already independent I wouldn’t vote for any party that supports the GRA or Humzas hate speech bill, but right now because I want independence more than anything I have no choice, that is not democracy that is blackmail.
These pet projects need to be put back till after independence is won so we the people can vote fairly on them without a gun at our heads, they are taking the piss
Schrod – Any election called within six months of the normal election supplants the normal election. So yes. If election was Dec 7th 2020, there could not then be an election in May 2021.
However the purpose of this emergency election would be to use it as a de-facto indy ref. If the SNP won , then it would be down to the UN to decide the validity of the result.
If successful a confirmatory referendum would be held and then a normal GE for the new independent nation of Scotland.
@Bob Mack,
It’s not that the vote was split but the vote was invalid / against the rules but nobody realised or spoke up and they still went ahead with it anyways.
Seems everybody in that meeting is tarred with the same brush.
I think the problem is that Nicola will not even be using the 2021 referendum as an indi-ref. So she is never going to resign and force an early election. She would need to be pushed!
Instead what we will get is , give us another mandate for indy ref 2 in 2021. Then when she wins she will say she is too busy dealing with the economic fallout from Covid-19. She already planted that seed a few months ago.
Nicola has excuses lined up like a junkies cocaine strip!
@andy
May 2021 is early enough: it gives us longer to prepare, means the campaign is in better weather,
————
disagree with that, what more prep do we need? even come may2021, regardless of better weather, i doubt we could campaign normally, ie no leafleting or canvasing
waiting til may 2021, also gives bojo time to shut down holyrood and we will have left the cu/sm/eu by then. after jan 1st, we could be facing complete chaos
@BJ
what happens after a 50%+ vote regarding international recognition etc, is another matter
so you agree that it is feasable?
@BJ
all plebiscites going forward will be seen as indy plebiscites. regardless of what nicola said
@Stuart MacKay,
If so then I would not have expected this article on Wings today. Many people may not have been happy or protested but there is little they can do at the time if the Chair rules it is acceptable
@Bob Mack 2:42 pm
“@MBP
Nothing to say about the article then? Or has The Cat
got your tongue“?
What I see is some one very bitter spinning us a yarn based on unnamed “sources” informing him/her of what “someone else said” about what “someone else thought“. And of course, he/she knew fine well such anti-SNP rhetoric would find a more than willing audience on the “formerly independence supporting site” of WoS.
And how right he/she was. The Tories shouldn’t have bothered shelling out for those antipodean PR ninjas to find ways of undermining the push for independence. Those who purport to want independence on this site are already doing a sterling job of that.
@orri
The FM has to win an exhaustive ballot, so it’s very unlikely that anyone who can’t do so would be able to “enjoy e confidence of the Parliament”. The Scotland Act makes it explicit that an FM without such confidence must either resign or seek a dissolution.
@SC,
Nicola and the NEC would have to state it was a plebiscite on Indy and approve it in a manifesto. Chances of that on the available evidence? Slim indeed.Non existent really.
Schrod – Of course an early election is entirely feasible. It’s the mechanics that are complicated.
@MBP,
It seems I have mistakenly given you credit for something you clearly lack. Sense.
If successful a confirmatory referendum would be held and then a normal GE for the new independent nation of Scotland.
if we win a 50%+ majority, immediately declare out indy and wm agrees, then we can legislate any future we want.
Is this a case of unintentional poor practice, or intentional malpractice? I’m in no position to establish which. Anyway, it would appear that Mr. McCann may need some help in sorting things out, as we need the SNP to function effectively.
Embedding Human Rights into Business Practice
A joint publication of the United Nations Global Compact and the Office of the High Commissioner of Human Rights
link to ohchr.org
@MBP,
We want Independence all rjght .What we don’t want is a corrupt leadership.
@SC
A majority won in plebiscitary elections fought on a specific platform of “victory = independence” would make a confirmatory vote redundant surely?
Bob Mack says:
Nicola and the NEC would have to state it was a plebiscite on Indy and approve it in a manifesto.
————-
a boost yes, and it may happen, there are growing calls for this.
however, if indy is on the manifesto in any shape or form, then a 50%+ result will be difficult for anyone to ignore
if wm accepts the result, then as an indy country, holyrood will decide what happens next
@schrodingers cat 3:53 pm
“If successful a confirmatory referendum would be held and then a normal GE for the new independent nation of Scotland“.
Careful SC, Andy Ellis goes bat shit crazy if you mention “confirmatory referendums“.
Andy Ellis says:
A majority won in plebiscitary elections fought on a specific platform of “victory = independence” would make a confirmatory vote redundant surely?
————-
totally agree. if we win, we are indy, what happens after is for holyrood to decide.
as for indyref2, whats the point? if we already win with eg 55%, why would anyone, even bojo, suggest it?
Schrod – Interesting about the UN.
I wouldn’t put it past the UK to do this!! UK can vote against it!!
1The State submits an application to the Secretary-General and a letter formally stating that it accepts the obligations under the Charter.
2The Security Council considers the application. Any recommendation for admission must receive the affirmative votes of 9 of the 15 members of the Council, provided that none of its five permanent members — China, France, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America — have voted against the application.
3If the Council recommends admission, the recommendation is presented to the General Assembly for consideration. A two-thirds majority vote is necessary in the Assembly for admission of a new State.
4Membership becomes effective the date the resolution for admission is adopted.
Just to be clear the confirmatory referendum is not to allow a second vote.
The confirmatory referendum is put to the public to agree the outline of the proposed new country. So things such as the monarchy, or being in or out of Nato etc. It is not a vote to stop independence.
If not agreed the a new confirmatory referendum would be drafted. It’s basically a new constitution and is completely normal.
@BJ
lol
yup, what you just pointed out that if we win with 55% and declare our indy the day after….
it will open up the biggest can of worms in the un’s history
you could add that if china, russia and france (all really chummy with bojo ) accept our declaration, they would probably immediately call for wm to vacate its permanent seat ????
if biden wins in nov, he will only need to wait until dec before the shit hits the fan
.
Dear SNP NEC Member,
Thankyou for the service you have given and the decency you have demonstrated with the above fascinating and disturbing article.
—————————————
Meanwhile…
Breeks, we have not always agreed, but I think I love you.
Your quote is beautiful and so perfectly to the point that it should be repeated…
—————————————
Breeks says: 4 August, 2020 at 9:51 am
”We need our leader to step in now and sort it.”
“I think he’s on the case, but has a book to finish first.”
Al -Stuart – AS is writing a book. Jees there will be much squeaking of bums at SNP HQ!!
The UK if not accepting the result because it was not done under sec 30, the accepted legal route outlined by Wextminster would still have a veto at the UN.
A lot of green ink getting spilled on these pages.
@BJ
i disagree
we declare indy immediately. wm will try and stiff us anyway, no question.
we close the border, apply to join efta immediately so on jan 1st, we stay in the cu/sm along with ni.
we negotiate with wm as an independent country.
I think the negs will be short and sweet, ie gtf.
wm keeps all the debts and the assets.
only issue will be the sea area they stole. they get 2 weeks to give it back or trident goes on fuckin’ ebay and we invite putin for the first state visit to scotland 🙂
It’s hardly rocket science even for jars of thinking gradualists like Bungo: we are 9 months away from a shot at independence. The only thing necessary for us to take that shot is for the SNP to simply announce that if Westminster refuses to grant. S30 order for #indyref2, they will stand for Holyrood 2021 election (& indeed every subsequent general election) on an explicit platform that winning >50% of the popular vote is de facto independence.
Given current circumstances, the evidence of polls & upcoming no-deal brexit, the big question for rank and file SNP members and supporters is why they aren’t ensuring the current milquetoast nationalists at the helm actually use this strategy.
@Bob Mack says 3:55 pm
“@MBP,
We want Independence all rjght .What we don’t want is a corrupt leadership“.
What the “malcontents” on this site are getting all het up about are the internal machinations of a large, broad church political party. The sort of thing that is going on in every other party in the British Isles and beyond. Only usually, this close to a critical election for the core aim of the party and the movement it is the figurehead of, the dirty washing doesn’t get aired as publicly as this. It is self indulgent, self destructive narcissism.
The general population couldn’t give a monkey’s left testicle about the pushing and shoving that goes on in a political party. They assume it goes on and leave them to get on with it. What they do take notice of, however, is disunity and vocal discontent within the membership/support (obviously willingly amplified by a joyous opposition) and they will punish a party for it. So, in this case, goodbye independence for decades …. or forever. Cheers guys 🙁
*“hard of thinking gradualists” …..sausage fingers! 🙂
“it will open up the biggest can of worms in the un’s history”
Actually Schrodingers Cat.
Kosovo did exactly that, and the (ICC) International Criminal Court, found that Kosovo broke NO International laws.
At the very worst we would need to send a delegate to the Permanent Court of Arbitration, to settle the matter with England, our case would be very strong one in that we’re meant to be in a voluntary union, two separate countries, and that Westminster is denying us our democratic right to vote to leave this union.
How many times does a British nationalist PM need to say no, before it becomes one time too many and we need to act?
@Andy Ellis 4:17 pm
“*“hard of thinking gradualists” …..sausage fingers! ?”
Yes, very amusing Andy. Only, if the SNP get a majority of the vote at next May’s (or whenever’s) Holyrood election, I’m looking at independence by this time next year …. the same as you. Are you a “gradualist too?
@MBP,
Surgeon leaves and takes her party pets with her then problem solved. Seems straightforward enough.
Leadership or the Lack of is whats keeping everyone at each others throats , This disconnect from the SNP management and the YES movement became obvious when people started asking why no current SNP MPs or MSPs were represented on any of the marches , then a few started appearing , the ones that did show were on the same side as most of us here questioning what happened to the push for independence .This could be easily remedied and we all know by who
“you could add that if china, russia and france (all really chummy with bojo ) accept our declaration, they would probably immediately call for wm to vacate its permanent seat ????”
How so Schrodingers Cat, if you’re basing your assumption, if thats what it is, on the UK or specifically the rUK having and retaining nuclear weapons, it still would possess them after we declare independence.
My assumption and I think its a logical one is that Westminster would be given time possibly several years or longer to relocate its nuclear arsenal to South of the border. I doubt very much that would cause the rUK to lose its seat on the UNSC, infact if I recall right its almost impossible but not quite to remove a UNSC member, or to be more precise the top five, Russia, China, UK, France and the United States of America.
hey, leader negotiator for scotland in the scoot negs after we win!! what a plum job that would be
jrm, lets keep calm, we need to think this through!!!
me, do ye now, aye, may i suggest fur yer new flag jacob, a white cross on a white background. snigger 🙂
@Bob Mack 4:26 pm
“@MBP,
Surgeon leaves and takes her party pets with her then problem solved. Seems straightforward enough“.
No. What you have there is a party seen in disarray and a bucket load of blood letting splattered all across the media …. again, to the joyous delight of the opponents of independence.
The “malcontents” are so invested in this essentially administrative argy bargy that they can’t conceive it is not vitally important to the general populace …. until, as I said, it is splattered across the media. And they won’t see it as a reasonable realignment of the party that needs no further scrutiny or comment. It will be a weeping wound that will leave the SNP, and consequently independence, crippled for years to come …. just as we are on the eve of the most important election in the cause of independence’s history.
Again, as I said, cheers guys 🙁 Wee Ruthie’s letter of thanks will along just shortly.
ros
???
the ruk can retain nukes, pakistan has them too.
but only the uk has a permanent seat, if we declare indy, the uk ends. what right do they have to hold it?
when the soviet crumbled, russia continued to hold its permanent seat simply because the other 4 believed this was in the best interests of the stability of the whole region.
the ruk has no such saving graces, russia,china and france all have landfills bigger than england. the only place destabilised would be england
@Bungo
You can look, but you won’t find. Your gradualist mates are not about to deliver #indyref2 or indy anytime soon, or indeed this decade. The only way the SNP will be able to deliver on its purported central purpose is if we get rid of the current leadership and their monomaniacal (and politically cowardly) attachment to the “Gold Standard” Westminster sanctioned vote.
A majority of seats and even popular vote at Holyrood will no more be accepted by the international community as a mandate for indy than the SNP’s overwhelming victory in the 2015 Westminster Election was.
You know why that is the case, but continue to pretend otherwise.
“It will be a weeping wound that will leave the SNP, and consequently independence, crippled for years to come ”
Me Bungo Pony, I suggest differently, that the SNP has self inflicted the wounds, via its GRA bill its Self-ID nonsense, and its stringent and as Police Scotland have hinted at unworkable Hate Crime bill.
On top of this you have the machinations surrounding Alex Salmond, Mark MacDonald, James Doran and Joanna Cherry. It wasnt as you rudely put it the malcontents that caused any of that to occur, no it was the SNP heirarchy that allowed it to happen and like vigilant members of society that want to see the SNP kept straight and true, to bring about Scottish independence we’ve discussed it here on Stu’s excellent blog.
So in reality if anyone group of people has damaged the Scottish independence cause, its the SNP heirarchy, and not the concerned voters in here who have no say in the direction in which the upper echelons of the party wants to go.
Andy Ellis says:
4 August, 2020 at 4:46 pm
@Bungo
“A majority of seats and even popular vote at Holyrood will no more be accepted by the international community as a mandate for indy than the SNP’s overwhelming victory in the 2015 Westminster Election was“.
So you don’t believe independence is deliverable at all, no matter who is in charge. You are claiming your own pet scenario for achieving independence is a complete non-starter. What are you arguing about then. Just join Labour or the Tories and “get on with the day job” as they forever bang on about.
I think 99% of our problems can be resolved by getting rid of Murrel and Sturgeon.
When you want to stop the rot, take it off from the head. We have reached this point because of poor leadership and judgement.
Ultimately until we fix the disparity between the leaders and the yes movement, then nothing will progress. Re-electing the SNP is essential, re-electing Nicola is the problem.
A majority of seats and even popular vote at Holyrood will no more be accepted by the international community as a mandate for indy than the SNP’s overwhelming victory in the 2015 Westminster Election was.
—————–
disagree, the result in 2015, 49.5% was specifically on a manifesto for continuing to work with the uk. we only lost indyref 10 months earlier, we didnt have a mandate to even campaign for indy. what was there for the international community to recognise?
this is different, a 50%+ result on a manifesto for indy does ask the international community and the rUK a question.
how they will react is unknown, but that isnt a reason not to push for it?
The SNP don’t have to stand on an all or nothing more than 50% vote for us and we declare independence platform due to the way Holyrood is set up.
All they have to stand on is a mandate for independence preferably via a referendum agreed by Westminster. That leaves options open as to whether they would under any circumstances hold a referendum without Westminster agreement or even go as far as to declare independence.
On the list is where we have the opportunity to hold a referendum. A list only party will never and can never win a majority of the seats. What it can do though is stand on a platform of if over 50% vote for them then that is a clear mandate for Holyrood to negotiate independence or should their be no vote forthcoming declare it.
Now that’s where things get interesting. Obviously Westminster might point blank refuse to negotiate. However given a vote of over 50% they’d be hard pushed to do so unless they pointed to different electorates and a confirmatory referendum. And the SNP would be in the position where they either got the finger out or stood aside. Possibly enough MSPs would support or move to the list party that they wouldn’t actually be in charge.
If, however, the list party didn’t get over 50% of the vote the way things are going they’d poll high enough to get at leas a seat if not more in each region. Regardless of which they’d still have the independence via referendum as their plan B.
Obviously if the SNP manage a near clean sweep on constituency votes then they’ll have a majority and can faff about. If not then they’ll be put in the position of looking for support either from the Greens who don’t have independence as a primary aim or the list party who do.
Unlike RISE, who were chancing bastards, any list party has to state clearly that they want to twist arms and in the case of Westminster preferably up it’s back and clean off.
There is a positive side to the nuclear weapons planted here in Scotland.
We can sell our enforced share of the bombs to England and charge them
A very premium rate for storage until and English dumping ground can be
Found fur them in England.
Bungo @4:40
“What you have there is a party seen in disarray and a bucket load of blood letting splattered all across the media …. again, to the joyous delight of the opponents of independence.”
What do you think we have now, FFS? A bloody teddy bear’s picnic? Open your eyes man! The ship is close to foundering on the reef and the Captain has her head in a bloody novel!
Oh dear it looks as if I have to school myself on the workings of the SNP executive.
I appreciate the article, but I’m as confused as ever regarding Edimburgh.
I note the author is a member of the NEC, by some process was allowed to vote as a member (I don’t think they were merely an observer?)
Rather than the NEC’s members engaging ‘en bloc’ and able to engage in motions/amendments etc. – a core NEC committee (by some form of STV / off the top of their head?) whittled a motion down to one and presented it to select NEC members (not involved in the process) as a fait-accompli to vote on.
Following that vote, there was a further STV (?) of pre-selected options on how to amend and that was also duly passed. Those options aren’t mentioned in the article (“pre-prepared options”) “MP’s must resign first” was obviously one – what were the others, if any?
I understand that during this ‘vote’ there was no motion, or objection by any NEC member to the breach of standing orders; despite the Standing Orders and their breach being “Simple to understand”
From the article “No motion was raised” suggests Nothing was outvoted/ ignored and not a single member of the NEC (including the author) called a breach.
I infer that NEC members are not neccesarily required to be ‘au-fait’ with standing orders (however simple) “On checking the standing orders it seems he’s right”
Or if some were aware, they were somehow bounced by the core NEC Committee, into a vote for which they had no prior notice, nor time to react to.
I have not the faintest idea from the article what was going on.
The best I can do is; that a core committe of the NEC called a vote, without detailing the nature of the vote – which was to be held on a preselected and pre-approved motion.
It required the drafting in of some other NEC members – either minimal for some sort of valid quorum, or every other NEC member, if which the author was one.
The Chair of the Core Committee then said “You’ll be wondering why you were called here today – Sit down, shut up” “Good, now pick one of these two options – Amend / Do not Amemd the Dual Mandate…
Ok try again, here’s a clue, the answer is ‘Amemd’ – You at the back, I said shut up!”
“Good, now pick which of these options will be be the actual amendment…”
Must be aged 90 and accompanied by their parents / Must resign first.
“Still remembering to keep your mouths shut…wait for it – go”
“Very good, Constitutional Amendment passed, thanks for your time, now bugger off”
Is that close? I’ve no idea.
In my time, I’ve been dragged into a few doughnut meetings which I had no idea about, but really, not a cheep from a single person, including the author. I’ve never heard anything so absurd in my life.
Jeezus wept. Even, the Janny would have walked out of a meeting like that and taken the coffee and doughnuts with him.
(Yes via Zoom, I know)
I’ve no idea, but perhaps for the really slow of comprehension, someone could write down the Janet & Johm – in crayon.
@Republicofscotland 4:52 pm
“Malcontents” is not rude; it is an accurate description of those who are discontent with things. It is a simple catch-all for those on this thread clearly unhappy about a couple of policies no where near implementation, and somehow see this as reason enough to risk the core cause they purport to believe in.
There is plenty of opposition to the GRA and HCB out with the SNP (and within it through normal intra-party debate) to ensure they won’t pass as is …. if at all.
There is no need to threaten the cause of independence by self indulgently and self importantly using them as means to effectively destroy the party and consequently independence. This site is fast becoming one of the greatest threats to Scottish independence. Which, as someone who would wax lyrical about it in the past, I find no joy in saying.
BBC doing the usual post result analysis
The ones that did well should not have done as well
The ones that did badly should have done much bettter
We are all confused, we don’t understand
Flanagan on saying teachers concerned where there decisions have been overturned
The end of the world is ahead and it is the fault of the Scottish government
Pathetic
“but only the uk has a permanent seat, if we declare indy, the uk ends. what right do they have to hold it?”
Schodingers Cat, you’re assuming that because the current UK would lose a third of its land mass, that the Westminster government of the day would lose its seat somehow on the UNSC a permanent seat I might add. Logically I’d imagine that Westminster would still continue to use the name UK its well known around the world, what’s or who’s to stop it using that name.
Russia via its bloc last century had several names, in any case as I’ve stated in here its virtually, but not quite impossible for one of the big five UNSC members to be removed.
Me Bungo Pony 16:40
The “malcontents” are so invested in this essentially administrative argy bargy that they can’t conceive it is not vitally important to the general populace …. until, as I said, it is splattered across the media.
So, am I to understand that SNP leadership playing power games instead of doing what we elected them for is not the real problem.
Our real real problem is that it gets reported. This should be stamped out.
Elementary.
@Bungo
As I’ve said previously, if you interact with what people actually say rather than what you wrongly infer, we’ll all get along faster. Of course I believe indy is achievable: it’s even possible the current SNP will lead us to those sunny uplands. The point is they aren’t going to do it anytime soon using their current strategy. You and the other gradualist stooges can whine about it all you like, but it’s just vanishingly unlikely that their strategy could possibly result in a vote, still less actual indy, this decade.
It’s not just my “pet strategy”: it’s one advocated by the folk who actually think we should just get on with it, and not accept that British nationalists have an effective veto on when we exercise our self determination. Your political cowardice is your own affair: don’t expect us all to applaud you for it.
The majority I was referring to (as you well know) is a majority of seats, or even indeed votes, which is not won on a specifically plebiscitary mandate. A huge majority of seats in 2015 wasn’t a mandate for indy, but (as SC) pointed out it was achieved with 49.x% of the vote. However, it wouldn’t have mattered if it HAD been won with 51% or 60% of the vote, because it was a Westminster election NOT A PLEBISCITE.
Please at least try to follow what the grown ups are talking about?
its virtually, but not quite impossible for one of the big five UNSC members to be removed.
i think it would require all 4 other nations to say cheery bye. the us is the uks biggest allie. soon to be its only allie
the challenge will come if scotland declares indy
“There is no need to threaten the cause of independence by self indulgently and self importantly using them as means to effectively destroy the party and consequently independence. This site is fast becoming one of the greatest threats to Scottish independence. Which, as someone who would wax lyrical about it in the past, I find no joy in saying.”
Me Bungo Pony, I see you completely body swerved the other points and focused on the bills, so would I have if I were in your shoes as they’re completely indefensible.
Anyway trivia aside we know who is to blame for the restlessness among the natives, so to pick your brains for a second, what makes you think Sturgeon will call for let alone get a independence referendum in her next tenure as FM. The masses have done their bit by carrying us over the 50% line, why should we trust Sturgeon again and believe that she’ll actually do something significant this time around.
Of course I implore every person in Scotland who seeks independence to give their list vote to another independence minded party other than the SNP. Or are you of the mind that we should once again waste one million votes on the SNP to gain just four list seats.
@robertknight 5:04 pm
“Bungo @4:40
“What you have there is a party seen in disarray and a bucket load of blood letting splattered all across the media …. again, to the joyous delight of the opponents of independence.”
What do you think we have now, FFS? A bloody teddy bear’s picnic? Open your eyes man! The ship is close to foundering on the reef and the Captain has her head in a bloody novel!”
The hugely popular “Captain is in command of a ship that has the support of 55% of the population and her actions have seen support for independence at sustained record highs. These are the “headlines” the general population see and take a view on.
They don’t see the internal administrative argy bargy unless it is highlighted. Step forward WoS and it btl posters. Joanna Cherry’s and James Dornan’s candidacies (and how they are dealt with) achieves an importance on these threads that the general populace just don’t share …. until the opposition and MSM get a hold of the discontent story and run with it. Then …. probable disaster for the independence cause.
I have opened my eyes robertknight. They were opened when I came to these threads for the first time in years and saw the horror show they had become. Until then, I had seen the “headlines I referred to above and was quite excited about the prospect of independence next year. Then I saw all the self indulgent, self destructive cr*p on these threads and realised …. when the opposition get a look at this and have their spin doctors/media buddies go to town on it, independence will be gone forever.
@Republic
What totally invested gradualists like Bungo, SC and all the other Sturgeon fanboys and girls can’t stomach is the emerging realisation that it’s the SNP which represents the clear and present danger to achieving independence in any reasonable timescale.
Of course, many of them are intensely relaxed about the prospect of a vote or actual indy being kicked into the long grass potentially ad infinitum. All those sinecures to fill, mortgages to pay. Much easier to be a big fish in a small devolutionary pond than to be found out post indy to be a gradualist chancer, out of ideas and out of your depth.
@vlad (not that one) 5:14 pm
“Our real real problem is that it gets reported“.
No. The problem is that the “malcontents” are giving it an importance it does not deserve and self importantly using it to effectively destroy the SNP and consequently independence.
What is being drummed up as some sort of uniquely important set of circumstances are just, as I said before, happening in every party all the time. Its just not normal for them to be used by the party’s own members and supporters to threaten the whole raison d’etre of the movement they say they believe in.
Go to snp.org, front page – nothing about independence. Click on policies – nothing on independence. Click on constitution,then under “does snp have a mandate” click on read more. “We are committed to a referendum … that will be respected by the uk …” A) why? B) they will never respect our referendum C) shouldn’t that be rUK?
@Andy Ellis 5:16 pm
“@Bungo
As I’ve said previously, if you interact with what people actually say rather than what you wrongly infer, we’ll all get along faster“.
I did interact with what you actually said Andy. I interacted with your exact words. Not for the first time, you are claiming you never said things that are there for everyone to see. Are you hoping people won’t go back and check? That they will just take your word for it?
I suppose we could blame my lack of telepathic powers for my inability to discern you didn’t mean what you said and meant something different instead. If that makes you happier, we will go along with that 🙂
@Me Bungo Pony 17:25 pm
Joanna Cherry’s and James Dornan’s candidacies (and how they are dealt with) achieves an importance on these threads that the general populace just don’t share …. until the opposition and MSM get a hold of the discontent story and run with it.
Is it not a mite presumptuous to speak for the general populace? I have high regards for Joanna Cherry and I resent her options being nobbled (ditto Philippa Whitford, though I do not know if she might have wanted to stand for Holyrood just now).
With apologies, I do not propose to comment on your further contributions.
If one were to take the view that after Scotland’s independence there would be no continuing state of the UK, and instead two new nations – separate legal entities – had been created, then neither new nation would be entitled to the UK’s permanent Security Council seat, and so the seat would in theory be lost.
@Shug says:
4 August, 2020 at 5:06 pm
“BBC doing the usual post result analysis”
You are missing the point. The SQA have adjusted the gradings to prevent a sharp jump. But they have based their stats on the historical attainment levels of schools, rather than on the individual student. Consequently, more affluent areas have had less of an impact. The Scottish Government – ie Swinney – is responsible. He will have known precisely what the SQA were doing.
Regrading as a process is not in question. It is the way it has been carried out in. True, there are extraordinary circumstances, but it appears the SQA were more concerned about the overall figure, rather than the impact on students.
The SQA will now get an avalanche of appeals. A lot of students are relying on their results to get into their courses. If they have to change that means a further delay as SAAS process the changes.
Universities and colleges won’t wait forever. They are not under the control of Swinney – but the SQA is.
Given the above. What about the transition period. Would the UN still recognise the UK as a unit, until they agreed to recognise Scottish independence.
So if they did. Could the UK still block independence as per their permanent members right.
Fantastic! An independence party NEC being run by cheats. Creative!
Fantastic! An independence party, its roost being ruled by a husband and wife team. Soo-per!
Fantastic! An independence party filling their coffers with the hard-earned of their cannon-fodd.. eh, membership whilst having no timescale for an independence referendum. Cute!
Fantastic! An independence party that intentionally prevents an infinitely popular pro-independence champion from contesting an important seat in the country’s capital. Masterstroke!
Fantastic! An independence party overrun with those who place actual independence *not* at the top of their priorities. Bingo!
Fantastic! An independence party determined to smokescreen, mislead and alienate – yes, alienate – the country’s pro-independence citizens. Boom!
They thought it was all over – it is now!
Can we keep Covid-19 going a couple more years? It’s great for the leader of the independence party. Fantastic!
@vlad (not that one) 5:46 pm
“”@Me Bungo Pony 17:25 pm
Joanna Cherry’s and James Dornan’s candidacies (and how they are dealt with) achieves an importance on these threads that the general populace just don’t share ….
Is it not a mite presumptuous to speak for the general populace? I have high regards for Joanna Cherry and I resent her options being nobbled”
It is more presumptuous to assume that what is hugely important to you must be hugely important to the entire population. You are illustrating my point about the “self importance” being shown by “malcontents” on these threads.
I can promise you that if were to go into work tomorrow (a workplace of a several dozen people comprising Medical Consultants, Biomedical Scientists, Lab Assistants and admin staff among others) and say to them “its really shocking what happened to James Dornan isn’t it” I’d get blank looks all round as they struggled to work out who James Dornan was never mind give a sh*t as to what had happened to him.
Comment on my posts or don’t comment. I’ll deal with it either way 😉
Why not a grassroots petition to ask Salmond to return as leader of the SNP?
@Bungo
It’s your MO on here bud. Everyone knows it, and it isn’t fooling anyone. whether it’s because you just aren’t bright enough to follow detailed concepts and arguments, or because you’re simply arguing in bad faith, I’ll let others decide.
My approach and arguments are quite clear. They haven’t changed. No tired attempt on your part to obfuscate the issues can hide the fact that you’re a slavish party loyalist who simply won’t interact and answer basic questions. Like so many faith based zoomers, you ask us to accept your beliefs as fact. Gie’ us peace.
@Kenny says 6:05 pm
FFS! With “committed supporters” like you, we’re never going to get independence. Then again, perhaps your intention.
Andy Ellis 6:14 pm
What questions haven’t I answered? And I’ve yet to see any evidence that your beliefs are fact despite asking you for it numerous times.
@Beaker
Sorry but the increase predicted by the teachers would have made the pass rate increase so high the qualification would have effectively been worthless.
This was covered at the briefing, the teachers recommendation for the most disadvantaged would have jumped by 20%, and that being at least 15% above the historical pass rate for those students.
You can’t have the passes down to just the predictions of individual teachers, they are human as everyone else and will have their own, can’t think of a better word here, prejudices about individual students. There predictions needed independently assessed across the country by people who have no connection with their school.
Hi Me Bungo Pony at 5:05 pm.
You typed,
““Malcontents” is not rude; it is an accurate description of those who are discontent with things.””
You are using the term pejoratively though. It must be deliberate, because you actually use the correct term in the same sentence!
malcontent |?malk?nt?nt|
noun
a person who is dissatisfied and rebellious. it was too late to stop the malcontents with a show of force.
The prefix mal-
a combining form meaning “bad,” “wrongful,” “ill,” occurring originally in loanwords from French (malapert); on this model, used in the formation of other words (malfunction; malcontent).
You are implying that those who don’t accept your point of view are bad and/or wrong. The term you should be using is
discontent |d?sk?n?t?nt|
noun [ mass noun ]
• [ count noun ] a person who is dissatisfied, typically with the prevailing social or political situation: the cause attracted a motley crew of discontents and zealots.
I guess I’m a discontent…
Corona:
The UK official reporting site was closed today 4th August.
It has been replace with a UK figures only data report.
It is becoming more and more difficult to find England only data.
Anyhoo!
Scotland………today……00………Total….2491…BBC
N. Ireland…….today……00………Total…..556…BBC
Wales…………today……01………Total….1566…BBC
England……….today…..*06..*sun…Total…no data.
———————————————————-
UK……………today……89………Total…46299..WM Gov
The daily UK Total data from here. We are all in it together 🙁
link to coronavirus.data.gov.uk
@MBP,
Ostrich____head_____sand.
Save your breath guys.
Zoom meetings, Teams meetings, Skype meetings – all good for one thing – destroying human communication. The request for objection sounds more like a challenge and silence then becomes consent. I’m not excusing the NEC, but understand why the motion would carry.
The more nefarious a body or organisation is, the more they will get away with all sorts of things – the private sector is about to get an almighty kicking (just look at BA for a sign of things to come) and the Unions will be complicit by their inability to react quickly enough and by being frozen to the spot through fear of public outcry.
I would also hazard a guess that if the folks dealing with the covid crisis were all around a table, watching each others body language, the politicians would probably be getting it tight right now.
These virtual forums have their benefits, but not for you and me.
BDTT
‘You are implying that those who don’t accept your point of view are bad and/or wrong’
Spot on and that is exactly why debating them is futile – they are unable to reason with someone they regard as inferior to them.
It’s also what makes them dangerous.
Andy Ellis@ 5.29pm.
Andy you make some very good point there, it certainly feels like Sturgeon’s glacial movement towards Scottish independence is the plan.
However, Johnson’s power grab which will negate much of our parliaments powers, will surely force her (I hope) to reconsider this, and hopefully even she’ll recognise that Scottish independence is the only real way forward now.
What the heeeeeeeeeeeeeeell is going on in that party?
“i think it would require all 4 other nations to say cheery bye. the us is the uks biggest allie. soon to be its only allie”
Schrodingers Cat, no that’s incorrect, it would require two-thirds of the General Assembly, and all the other UNSC Permanent members to vote to have the UK removed, and as I’ve stated that’s very unlikely.
@Republic
It’s got to the point I doubt if Sturgeon and her gradualist posse would actually stir themselves to DO all that much even if the britnats did make a move on Holyrood or reserve powers supposedly coming back from Brussels to themselves. Five will get you ten that Bungo, SC and their mates will be amongst the first making excuses for the emasculation too.
Gradualists gonna gradualise. Always. It’s no more possible for such folk to find their political courage than it is for people to change sex.
Something I find quite illuminating within Stu’s article is the quote
“to survive a confidence vote if the inquiry doesn’t go our way”
This is an admission by someone on the NEC that The Salmond Inquiry has the ability to bring down the government. A ruling party with fantastic polls and a walk on water, living saint, leader is afraid that it is going to be ejected from office.
I greatly resent the bias tone of channel 4 news at the best of time
But I’m fuming at Enquiry begins today into the Scandals behind
The new Scottish hospitals.
There is a transparent enquiry being conducted in the appropriate manner!
Their in-depth investigations will decide if the word scandal deserves to be
Appropriated, not some Unionist script writers propaganda agenda.
Andy Ellis @ 7.11pm.
We’ll find out soon enough how Sturgeon wants to play this, when Westminster grabs the powers coming back from the EU. Will she make a lot of noise over it but do very little, or will she act on the power grab, for I’m hoping that the power grab increases the support further for Scottish independence.
The Indy movement is/was like a great big shiny apple and those who wanted a bite at Indy all worshiped it, believing this to be the elixir of life for Scotland, it is and I was one of them,
But sometimes what at first appears good, can leave a bad taste in your mouth, especially if the apple has been deliberately infiltrated by maggots, and our Indy apple has so many maggots they spill over into our Indy Scottish sites,
Eating away internally on our doubts, selecting the juiciest morsels to retain and feed its body Until from it’s cocoon it morph’s into a wasp, NOT A BEAUTIFUL BUTTERFLY WITH WINGS.
The maggots infiltrating the independence movement are proud that they can, and have started making new rules up just where they need them in advance, so THEY can then use these rules to manipulate circumstances, to rot the shiny apple from within.
This Lesley Evens did with AS to make sure there was doubt and scandal attached to him, and now they have turned their attention to his successor, to sow doubt, and scandalous accusations, into the hands and minds of the independence supporters
For those to blind to see the workings of the wasp in a butterflies cocoon, take note with how they
now wish to entangle Joanna Cherry,
one by one, the strong voices that shout for independence(no matter which party they stand up in) are being stung, and so are you.
Maggots have done this with AS, and they want to do the same with NS,
Andy Ellis says:
My approach and arguments are quite clear. They haven’t changed.
Nobody apart from you & presumably a handful of zoomers either wants an election ASAP or thinks it is remotely feasible
Big Jock says:
Schrod – Of course an early election is entirely feasible.
I thought i argued well for the election to be brought forward, not being dragged out of the eu etc, but hey ho, why anyone would argue to do that is anyones guess
See @TravellingTabby for a breakdown of plague statistics that the UK government may not want to communicate.
Link is to Scotland but click on the UJ virus mage for the rest
link to travellingtabby.com
namaste James Che
“you have much to learn greenhopper” 🙂
All the Nicola needs to sort it out, Nicola will lead the party into the next election etc etc fails to consider that people as close possible to the FM conspired, and perjured themselves, in an attempt to put an innocent man in prison for the rest of his life.
Surely, if she had nothing to hide, she would disassociate herself from such people and protect her own position. Nicola Sturgeon isn’t a politician who has been slow to cut people loose before. What possible reason could she have for not getting rid of the problem and moving on?
There’s only one I can think of.
@Davie Oga 7:32 pm
And another dastardly conspiracy is added to the teetering pile.
A “Lord” Peter Hennessey (Historian and Author) states on Channel Four news that the greatest single worry innthe longer term is that we lose the Union of the UK and talks about a Scottish Separation from the UK in the mid 2020’s , i could live with that given that it will take a couple of years from an Indy Vote to actual Independence. Shows the establishment is worried, just need to get the SNP onboard and the rest will be a breeze 🙂
It’s remarkable that some believe a referendum is just around the corner. They claim if we just wait a little longer we will be Independent. It does not stand-up to scrutiny sadly.
We are destroying Independence.
Nicola, section 30 only.she has publicly stated there is no plan B.
Add to that all the latest nonsense and do you see a party ready to throw caution to the wind and appeal to International law.
It’s taken a group of yes supporters to take the government to court to try and get a section 30. Yes .Individuals unsupported by the SNP. That’s where we are at.
Get many retain pipedream of strategies that will deliver freedom next year. Your dreaming. You wish it was a real prospect but it’s fantasy.
If Nicola resigned tomorrow who in the SNP would replace her.
I suggest Philippa Whitford, she’s great but I don’t think she would want it. Any practical suggestions?
@Brian Doonthetoon 6:29pm
Your description of “malcontent” more accurately describes the majority on these threads. They are most definitely rebellious. They want action and are actively working to undermine the SNP.
If they were merely “discontent“, they would not be calling for people to cancel their memberships, with hold their votes from the party, and the culling of individuals they had a particular dislike of.
It was never intended as pejorative, merely a handy descriptive term for a group of people. People’s reaction to it, coupled with the abuse I’ve had to take for pointing out the “bleeding obvious (as far as I’m concerned), are not going to stop me using what I believe to be an accurate description used in the right context.
The SNP need a `Night of the Long Knives`,
the woke misogynists need targeted and eliminated from the party,
and sent packing, back to the British Labour swamp they crawled out from,
or an independent Scotland will turn into a haven for the worst scum on earth.
anyhoo,
Commiserations to the citizens of Beirut, that was a devastating explosion almost looked nuclear,would be surprised if there are not fatalities in the hundreds,poor souls.
Leadership is the missing link. Right now the buck doesn’t stop anywhere. We’ve only ourselves to blame. We’ve been far too gullible and complacent. We’ve allowed a system to develop where an anonymous leadership team ignores its constitutional responsibilities, unchallenged. The result is stasis while the questions, uncertainty and doubts continue.
Should we continue to seek independence for a country with an unprincipled legal system, disreputable political parties, freeloading politicians and a compromised, inactive leader? I think we should, but first we must recognise the source of our problems and find an untainted, competent, ethical, determined and tough replacement leader capable of confronting our self-serving, deceitful establishment, running the country, promoting independence and going on to achieve it.
That’s not likely to be easy but neither is breaking up a three hundred year old union.
Signed: The rebel without a cause.
The struggle to obtain a referendum must be one of the greatest confidence tricks I have ever witnessed in Scotland.
A government doggedly set on one route which is constantly denied since the days of Mrs May and now Boris.
Just give us another mandate and we will ask again because Boris has to listen this time if we better 50%.
There is the con game. That’s the sting. They will ask again and they know right now they will be refused. Again.
Next time give us 60% and Boris will definitely
cave in.
We have become victims of the e mail from Nigeria promising riches from somebody’s dead General. Get we keep replying back. Enough.
@Bob Mack 8:22pm
Okay Bob, you’ve been notably silent on this. What’s your plan for getting independence? Nail your colours to a mast rather than just tearing every one else’s down,
The route to Independence has been well documented on this site and by Craig Murray. Read them.
Try telling a member of the DUP that dinosaurs existed. They don’t believe you.
That’s how I find some SNP supporters these days. Evidence is irrelevant. Faith is everything.
@Bob Mack 8:33pm
It’s Andy Ellis all over again. When asked to give evidence of their “beliefs, nothing is forth coming. You are merely told to find the evidence of their beliefs for yourself. Why should anybody waste their time looking for evidence of something that possibly doesn’t exist? If you have nothing Bob, just admit it. If you do have something, let’s see it.
Callmedave
On your link, in the left hand margin, click on ‘About the data’
Scroll down and click on ‘Legacy CSV downloads’
Click on ‘Deaths’
This lists all four nations daily deaths, albeit the format is different from the previous daily death lists which listed Wales, Scotland, N Ireland and England together. the new format shows all England deaths, then all N Ireland daily deaths, then all Scotland daily deaths, and finally Wales.
In summary for July 2020 only:
England Covid 19 Deaths 2,236
Wales Covid 19 Deaths 49
Scotland Covid 19 Deaths 5
N Ireland Covid 19 Death 5
‘Take care of your families and God help us all’.
Alex Salmond 23rd March 2020.
@MBP,
Your actually not worth the effort. Sorry.
Correct Bob,
The SNP itself has become an obstacle to independence. How did this happen?
Bungo seems to believe everything is going swimmingly and that we should all be as we were, nothing to see here, next train to independence central will be arriving anytime now, keep buying tickets to get on.
More people are wondering, if a train is coming, why are there no tracks?
“commiserations to the citizens of Beirut, that was a devastating explosion almost looked nuclear,would be surprised if there are not fatalities in the hundreds,poor souls.”
Scott Finlayson.
There was a border clash last month between Lebanon and Israel, several days before the clash an Israeli drone was brought down in Lebanon presumably by Hezbollah. The terrible explosion in Beirut could be retaliation by Israel.
@Bob Mack 8:49pm
I’ll just have to assume you’ve got nothing then Bob. All bluster and no substance. Just like Andy. Too bad 🙁
I was that explosion. The last time I ever saw anything like that was when an ammunition ship blew up.
Bungo just an old dog returning to his vomit because he can’t do anything else. He demands evidence and certainty whilst believing in unicorns. A referendum will somehow just happen by the force of our irresistable mandate.
Notice he never actually answers the many calls for justification of his faith based position. His best shot is whataboutery that his belief is no less valid than that of the “malcontents”, because ours can’t be proven and isn’t inevitable.
Of course anyone rational can see the difference between the balance of probability analysis of malcontents like us, and the political homeopathy of gradualists like him and his mates. He’s a trier right enough: proof positive that you just can’t kill a bad idea.
@MBP,
Your not open to debate sadly. I am not wearing my fingers down writing loads of information for somebody who is not intersted in reading one word of it and has predicted before they even start. No more communication to you.
@Andy Ellis,
Bungo can’t even have a good idea to kill.
@Bob Mack
He’s probably high up in the SNP or a SPAD: it’d explain a whole lot! 🙂
@Andy Ellis,
I suspect it is a SNP close family member. Very defensive so probably male married to female official.
Hi Me Bungo Pony at 8:12 pm.
You typed,
“Your description of “malcontent” more accurately describes the majority on these threads. They are most definitely rebellious. They want action and are actively working to undermine the SNP.
If they were merely “discontent“, they would not be calling for people to cancel their memberships, with hold their votes from the party, and the culling of individuals they had a particular dislike of.”
As a member of “The party” for a number of years, I recognise a zealot when I see one. That’s you, that is.
You probably hold some local position as some sort of representative for something but your input on WOS has, really, exposed your credentials.
You have, in your own mind, a particular agenda, which many contributors to WOS find unacceptable.
Next time my branch has a meeting, either actual or virtual, your input to the fight for independence will be minuted.
I suggest you do what is required of a Sherbet Fountain – suck it up.
OT
A couple of weeks old, but only just come across it.
Red Bull fires two top Executives for pushing woke agenda.
I don’t drink the stuff, but I might start! (then again, it does contain bull cum, so maybe not – yuk!)
@jfngw says:
4 August, 2020 at 6:21 pm
“Sorry but the increase predicted by the teachers would have made the pass rate increase so high the qualification would have effectively been worthless.”
You still do not understand what I am getting at. I know the education sector very well. What the SQA did was to “moderate” the results, but in a disproportionate manner. For example, able students from Motherwell are being unfairly penalised simply because the school they attend has poor attainment records. So now they have the stress of an appeal, which in highly unlikely to be completed in time for term start, given the higher than expected number of appeals. Universities do not wait. A number have already had offers withdrawn, and given that the English and Welsh results are released next week, there will be an almighty rush for places.
Because of the circumstances with COVID, the SQA should have been communicating with teachers prior to the results being released, to explain why each student was reassessed. Yes, some teachers will have inflated expected grades but I doubt in significant numbers. But the SQA needs to justify each and every case, and I would imagine there are a lot of parents who will be demanding just that.
What is to be seen is how many successful appeals there are.
I know there are no easy answers, but it seems both the SQA and Swinney are not accepting responsibility.
Me Bungo Pony
Keep it up , more power to your elbow.
The Union needs to split the Independence movement, there’s an army at work on this blog whose sole purpose is to cause division. They are getting more desperate by the day. With good cause.
The FM and the SNP are high in the polls an election bekons.
This blocking of Joanna Cherry from standing for Holyrood is the latest piece of guff from the SNP leadership which has morphed into new Labour. Everyone apart from the self-serving in-crowd can confirm what a contrived, secretive and transparently unfair decision it is. As for A. Robertson: he deserves zero respect as he is the intended and seemingly willing beneficiary of this gerrymandering.
The on-line push back from the yes movement has been a pleasure to behold, however I think many yes folk still can’t face up to this truth: the FM does not work to make Scotland independent. She tweets nonsense about the latest book she intends to read but not a word about the NEC fiasco. Totally useless.
Leadership requires integrity, courage, force and purpose, qualities the FM apparently does not possess. The media tell us she is a cautious politician but the evidence indicates that she is a timid self-serving politician unwilling to address the major problem Scotland faces. Being a moderately competent middle manager is not what is needed to win independence or indeed lead a party as large as the SNP.
Moreover, I have no faith in the current leadership’s ability to negotiate the necessary practical separation of UK assets etc. through to full Scottish independence. That will require an intelligent, tough and hard nosed approach in order to achieve a fair outcome.
I am fed up hearing the FM talking about Covid19. These briefings could be handled by Jeane Freeman who is very capable. The FM has stated that her thinking is entirely concentrated on Covid. She, unlike every woman I have known, is apparently unable to multi-task or delegate intelligently. It is an excuse to put independence out of mind and therefore there is an undeniable divide between the SNP Leadership and the yes movement.
The silence from MSPs and MPs is indicative of how stagnant and timid the party has become. Notable exceptions are Angus MacNeil, Kenny MacAskill and Philippa Whitford (there may be others I haven’t seen). We should have all three in our Holyrood Parliament along with Joanna Cherry. Also Chris McEleny who intends to stand for MSP.
Attending the Westminster HOC is playing the british game with british rules and should be abandoned immediately. Lets have our power base in Scotland taking concrete steps to withdraw from the Treaty of Union. It will not be painless but why continue to send Scotland’s revenue to London and receive back only paltry pocket money via Barnet (pus the fake deficit concocted in London).
As others on this thread have already stated: we need a clear out at the top of the SNP organisation otherwise I suspect the goal of independence will remain stalled for many years. Its an urgent situation as the scottish national health service and much else will be unprotected against Westminster (English) power.
@bdtt
You probably hold some local position as some sort of representative
—————
i applied but was refused 🙁
@bdtt
summat about startin’ fights in empty rooms etc 🙁
@Beaker
What you are effectively saying is we should just accept a 20% increase in the pass rate for certain schools because they are in deprived areas. If we could ascertain these schools had accurate grade prediction levels in the past then there would be some substance to accepting their predictions, but I would question what they have done to make such a dramatic increase in attainment standards.
If the discrepancy in the school education systems needs corrected then that needs to be tackled, you don’t do it by frigging the system to get the results you want. Historical results are relevant, you don’t get the sudden dramatic changes that would have happened by accepting all the teachers predictions.
Exams are always moderated to produce a pass rate controlled by exam authority, it has always happened. I was told this by one of my teachers in 1970 when I sat my exams, it has always been the way.
Don’t think I am standing up for the better off areas, when George Watson’s were sending their pupils for day visits to Heriot–Watt university my school was sending me to Shrubhill bus depot for work experience (I was in the top level class, the lower graded classes didn’t even get this level of attention).
i applied but was refused ?
Liar 🙂
Let’s be honest as far as politics goes about 95/97% of the population dont know or care about blogs like this.we are a small band that are a little obsessive about our own wee political gang.most on here look at what is said take the bits they like and forget the rest.its a great place to have a moan.and hope people agree.if you take yourself seriously on here you do have a problem.nicola is doing a great job she will be fm for as long as she wants.my prob is mr Morell I’d like him away to fuck.but I’m not gona obsess well not much.at the end of the day it’s the yes movement a list party msp or probably martin keatings.that will secure a referendum the snp will be dragged along as usual.
WOW…
So national secretary allows NEC to discuss and vote on a proposal
Now WOS presumably is suggesting that the secretary knew in advance what the NEC would decide
Maybe they did ? No way to prove it
Administration doing what it’s meant to do
If mistakes are made if unconstitutional motions passed they will surely be struck down
All political party’s work this way nothing unusual happening in SNP , sure some people don’t like what’s happening but at the end of the day constitution rules will be imposed
@Ckydebuilt,
This army of agents are mostly the ones contributing to keep Wings open for years. Rather defeats the purpose if we were agents wanting to close it down No?
I don’t care two hoots for SNP procedures since I am not and have never been a member. But the motion in the first place is highly suspect by the usual suspects for a suspect motivation which is clear to anyone with half a brain paying half their attention span to it.
Well done to bring the party into further disrepute amongst us hoi polloi.
I am a member of a political party as it happens.
ISP2 that is all.
Terry Callachan supports the SNP? Huh. That is all.
twitter followers
Willie Rennie 24.8 k followers
Jackson Carlaw 19.2 k followers
Richard Leonard 21.2 k followers
Patrick Harvie 82.9 k followers
Nicola Sturgeon 1.2 million followers
SQA have done the best they can in very difficult circumstances. Overall achievement of students is significantly up and bodes well for the SNP at next years election. Tories will complain that to many did well and Labour will complain that many did not do as well as they thought they should have.
Bob Mack says:
Terry Callachan supports the SNP? Huh. That is all.
——————
along with the yes movement who have backed them solidly since 2011.
Beaker
So you think Swinney is conspiring with the SQA to give poorer children poorer results?? really
SQA is one bunch of educationalists examining the results of another bunch of educationalists work which was a review of the work undertaken over the year to closure. Most of both are members of a Trade Union which as far as I can see is hostile to the SNP and if there was one e mail suggesting such it would be produced in an instant.
Under this you think they manipulated the result
do you work at the BBC?
@terrence callachan
Delayed posting until you got the SNP spin methinks?
So it’s suggested some people on the NEC were involved in the framing of Alec Salmond
It’s very likely that many of the people “involved” with the Alec Salmond case were persuaded by those around them that he was guilty I think it’s likely that many of them now realise they were sold a frame -up and they probably feel regret at being taken in by it.
It only takes one person in a large group to persuade many in the group that a lie is the truth .
I don’t think WOS tell lies but I think they sometimes present opinion that many on here believe to be FACT , that’s because WOS is highly respected and trusted by the Scottish independence movement but its a perfect example of how easily people can be moved one way or the other by respected peers and often they they go on to present “ the opinion” ….to others as a “FACT”
If you have attended meetings with large groups of ten or more you will know that most people around the table say nothing or very little and many around the table won’t even contest something they know to be a lie , it’s what happens in large group discussions ,it’s not all bad because usually after meetings where this happens there is private discussion amongst friends/allies about said lies and usually it all comes out in the wash.
It’s human nature that it works like this.
The romans found this to be the case too so little chance of it ever changing but committee is still regarded as the best way
I think you will find fault in the administration of all political party’s there will be criminal activity too I’m sure over the years many people have been expelled from political party’s for criminal activity and misbehaviour etc I do not think SNP are any worse than the their political party’s but the trend here is to behave as if they are , why ? It’s odd ?
SNP are a large organisation with a tried and tested constitution
Interpretations are often a problem but there are lawyers available to settle these things
I’m not worried at all about how the SNP is being run
There are mistakes corrections ups and downs in every political party
Plan A should have always been Independence by any means possible.
It is not going to be easy. There was never any short cut that would avoid confrontation. Political confrontation being the most optimistic type.
England’s economic future and sense of self is based on the premise of dominating these islands and exploiting the natural wealth of Scotland.
At some point The Scottish Government will have to man up, stand its ground, and take control of the people, resources, borders, and international relations of Scotland.
There are good people in the SNP. The policies that are so contentious are probably, in most instances, done with good intentions, but “progressiveness” will not deliver statehood.
Can you imagine the current leadership negotiating independence with a hostile neighbour?
Would they trade oil for a promise that England would change the Equality Act and pass self ID?
Would they start calling potential trade partners racists, homophobes etc. They already sneer at China, US and Russia.
Are they able to control Scotland’s borders. Denmark deported 2000 people last year. Germany will deport 20000 this year and it is just a small percentage of the illegal and irregular migration into the EU. Is Scotland actually going to play a constructive role in policing the EU’s frontier or will it be the case that they hand out EU passports, and free houses and benefits to all who “feel” Scottishy.
In most countries, however well meaning, the groovey, rainbow flag waving, pseudo radical, let’s all love one another, middle class posing is confined to municipal government and student politics. It is unbecoming of the national government of a country that faces an existential threat to it’s existence and will not deliver a secure, independent state.
@SC,
Tell you what cat. I have been on this site for several years reading posters like Clydebuilt demanding a fairer more decent country, unlike England where the politicians just use folk for their own end.
Reams of lines about their lousy behaviour being unacceptable
and wanting Scotland to be governed in a different way.
Guess what?. The SNP has been found out acting just the same and now those same fighters for a different way want us just to accept it was a minor procedural mistake. Hypocrites all.
Never mind the prognostication either. Ignore it. Sign away female rights and we will sort it later.
You might as well be ruled by Labour. You deserve nothing more if your principles are so shallow.
@Andy Ellis
I have given you a detailed description of my “plan/scenario“, and the reasoning behind it, several times on these threads now. Is this your “MO“? Denying you have said things you clearly have while claiming others haven’t said things they clearly have? And I’m still waiting for evidence that your preferred scenario for achieving independence is valid.
@Bob Mack
I am clearly open to debate or I would not be here. I had asked you to give me your preferred scenario for debate but you are apparently unable to do so. Sounds like some one not up for debate to me.
@Brian doonthetoon
You know of me in my non-Me Bungo Pony/work capacity. I have gotten badges off you including, ironically, a Wings Alert Reader one before WoS took this saddening turn. I don’t know what you mean by “my input to the fight for independence being minuted” at a meeting of a group I am not a member of. And what exactly will be minuted? What I actually said or your subjective interpretation of what I said? And to what end? Is it a threat?
All three of you are claiming I am something I am not on the basis of nothing but your own prejudice and inability to comprehend anyone disagreeing with you. Hubris or what? I hold no position within the SNP. My wife cares for Alzeimers patients and is not even an SNP member never mind a party official. If the lot of you cannot see how nuts you are all starting to appear …. You all really need to get a grip on yourselves.
@Clydebuilt
Cheers 🙂
I’m just a Scottish independence supporter supporting the only political party that will ever get Scottish independence in my lifetime
I don’t agree with everything SNP do or have done , I go back as far as Gordon Wilson he was just a Tory that wanted Scottish independence but I voted for him for the Scottish independence part not the Tory part.
Sometimes you have to do that
In this life you rarely get everything you want
If you do ,something else will pop up that you want but cannot have
Choose what is most important to you and go for it
To me it’s Scottish independence
So for that reason I support SNP
Everything else that SNP do that I do not like , I accept , it’s the sacrifice I make to ensure that my votes help Scotland free itself from England’s grip
We’re nuts? Ha ha .ha. I think you protest too much bud.
How can you threaten A Bungo Pony? You would need to be heartless.
In politics, there are pivotal moments that come along often out of the blue. Successful politicians seize these moments often turning adversity into success.
Margaret Thatcher (apologies for mentioning her name) was the most unpopular prime minister in British history and was almost certainly going to be deposed by her own party before the general election.
Then Argentina invaded the Falklands and everything changed. She seized the opportunity and the rest is history (horrendous for most Scots).
After losing Indyref 1, the prospects for Independence looked bleak and Indyref 2 was just something you dreamed about but in your heart you knew it was a long way away.
Then along came NS’s Thatcher moment with Brexit and even better than just Brexit was Scotland voting the opposite to the UK. Here was the opportunity to get Independence within a year or two if the willingness was there.
Unfortunately NS spurned the gift and all we’ve got now is dreams of what might have been. Covid has come along now and the response from NS seems to be the same – no Independence referendum.
Hate crime by Winger. Bungo Pony intimidated by sordid reports to a branch. Don’t worry Brian,I’ll send you letters and food parcels when they prosecute you .ha ha ha
@Bob Mack
You’re starting to lose the plot mate.
@George Wood,
Pivotal moments? Pivotal years more like for Nicola.
PS the BBC now has it on their main home page
I rest my cases Johnny Beattie is the new Call Kaye
@MBP,
Sorry I’m treating your perceived threat lightly. Being branch minuted must be very intimidating for someone yourself who is not even a member. Ha ha ha ha.
Bob Mack says:
You might as well be ruled by Labour.
———–
if thats what you think, go vote for slab bob
but save us all fae yer unionist pish
@Bob Mack
Before they come after you with the butterfly net, I only asked if BDTT meant what he said as a threat. Not that I felt threatened. But then you knew that. And to think I had considered you among the more reasonable of the malcontents.
@MBP
its wine o clock bud
“The last time I ever saw anything like that was when an ammunition ship blew up.” @Bob Mack says at 8:55 pm
Allegedly cause was an initial fire at a fireworks container setting off a secondary at a depot storing confiscated Ammonia Nitrate, third explosion was larger and potentially involved fuel storage tanks Bob.
Picture in the link below shows the massive blast wave beginning to spread out.
link to moonofalabama.org
One witness told BBC “moments before heard incredibly loud jet, very very low, looked up, blinding flash”!
SNP are doing a fantastic job
Hold firm don’t be swayed
Westminster and friends will try and trick you to stop you voting for SNP
SNP know that if the next referendum doesn’t vote for Scottish independence it will be a long time before there’s another
SNP are doing the right thing , good governance , building support , it’s gone up from 44% to 54%
a 10% increase
The Westminster propaganda machine is in full flow trying to split the Scottish independence vote
Who are Westminster’s allies ? Insider allies ? Impossible to prove but accusations fly left right and centre
The thing is there is a wide difference in views amongst Scottish independence supporters about what they want in an independent Scotland
Anyone with any common sense can work out that the SNP cannot possibly be all things to all people in that wide spectrum of opinion
What we have to do is continually tell each other that we still support Scottish independence
That’s it’s still number one on our list
Number one in our lives
That it’s still only SNP that will deliver Scottish independence
That NO list party will ever get you independence
That list party’s are of no use whatsoever unless your first vote goes to SNP
That any more than ONE LIST PARTY will just water down the effect and split the Scottish independence vote
And such a split will ensure that list party’s end up pinching votes from each other and from the SNP
Making it likely that overall Scottish independence seats are lost
And after that we can then disagree about whatever else but it’s got to SNP first
@MBP
bdtt wouldnt threatening anyone, i know him personally. you’re perhaps reading more into his comment than was intended
@SC
For Bob, it looks like it’s been wine o clock for most of the evening.
@terry
i agree, we are coming down to the wire. this next vote is it
no point in saving anything for the return journey
its time to push the boat out
@SC,
Away and boil yer head. Your an SNP minnion just like Bungo, who might need a chair to sit down when he reads this.could be a threat eh?
Heroes all.
@SC,
I christen this ship Titanic
So this year
there’s a near 3% increase in national 5 passes
5% increase in higher passes
6% increase in advanced higher passes
And a further narrowing of the attainment gap between children from rich and poor families
BBC and SKY and others who are supporters of Westminster’s propaganda war against Scotland complain
@Terry Callachan,
Your needles stuck. Knock your head on the wall. Vote SNP.vote SNP,vote SNP. I’m at it now.
Bob Mack …you are arguing with everyone tonight
Can I join in
Are you a Scottish independence supporter
Will you vote SNP
Do you live in Scotland
@SC
I’m genuinely interested though. Why would “I” be minuted? What would be the reasoning behind it? Is it based on the baseless claim I am an SNP official and would therefore be compromised by it? I just can’t fathom why he would even suggest it. It was bizarre.
@Terry callachan
Leave him Terry. He’s pished.
No Terry Im a Major General in the Gilbert and Sullivan Division, sent to pull you all to a false sense of security.
What do you think?
@MBP,
I feel your pain. Being minuted is akin to having finger nails pulled out. Brian your a cruel man.
Yep, Bob’s pished.
It’s the only way to read some of this stuff. It’s intoxicating but funny. Private Eye on steroids.
Thousands of people have resigned their membership of the SNP, having realised that the leadership has no intention of securing Scotland’s independence, that it has pursued the wrong strategy at every step of the way since 2014, that it is attempting to enact mumbo-jumbo gender-ID policies which have no objective basis and which are opposed by the majority of the population, that it is trying to impose draconian restrictions on freedom of speech, that it has instigated or is at least deeply implicated in the scandalous conspiracy to destroy Alex Salmond, and that it has gerrymandered the selection-process for prospective MSPs in contravention of the party constitution to suit its own agenda; and still we have people on here saying “I’m not worried at all about how the SNP is being run”.
You’ve got to be kidding. How stupid do you think we are?
I also very much doubt that “Nicola is doing a great job she will be fm for as long as she wants”. I suspect she’ll be in line for the boot fairly soon, and I won’t be sorry to see the back of her. Otherwise, the SNP is likely to suffer the same fate as Scottish Labour.
@Michael.
You mentioned boot. Bungo will take that as a threat. What were you going to do with that boot you mentioned? Hate crime?
@Bob Mack: I didn’t say it would be my boot!
Terry @ 10:55
Very last paragraph
After that we can then disagree about whatever else but it’s got to be SNP first
After what Terry ?
After marching up the hill and back down countless times, after god knows how many mandates, after being promised not to be dragged out of the EU .
No one seems to know exactly what happens when after arrives , is after like just round the corner ? , and within touching distance or all the other meaningless platitudes in order to keep spirits up , well if you had noticed most of the people here have heard the story before and before that , that is why these people don’t ducking believe the same hollow tales spoken by the same hollow politicians
We have had AFTER countless times so please don’t be offended if folks are fed up to the back teeth of AFTER they have been promised countless bloody AFTERS the want some NOW not more bloody afters , patience is not just thin it’s bloody evaporated gone disappeared disintegrated
I’m watching an episode of Star Trek and the Federation would be glad to have as many deflector shields on the Enterprise as are on the SNP supporters on this thread tonight.
Klingon,, to power at any cost!!!
Bob
You are publicising and inciting violence by repeating the word “boot”. I feel unsafe. Hate crime?
@Robert Graham 11:24pm
It’s time for a whinger to actually justify this – “after marching up the hill and back down countless times, after god knows how many mandates, after being promised not to be dragged out of the EU” – rubbish. Exactly when were all these “countless times“? And, for once, explain the mechanism that would have delivered independence on at least one of these “countless times“.
Ammonium Nitrate is the likely cause of the Beirut explosion. Even Hezbollah are not blaming Israel.
It is a common fertiliser but can be highly explosive in the presence of fire or a triggering explosion. It was the explosive of choice for the IRA who used a mere 200 pounds in the car bomb which killed 26 people and devastated Omagh..
There were apparently hundreds of tonnes stored for several years in a dock warehouse in Beirut. Probably in poor conditions adding to its instability.
@David Oga,
I recant on a public forum without reservation. I’m inadvertently minimising the horror of being minuted experienced by Bungo.
Should I belt up now? Oops did it again!!
I wasn’t going to belt anybody M’lud.
I daren’t even mention Smack The Pony is one of my favourite shows. Could get me life in Peterhead.
@bob
link to youtube.com
@Me Bungo Pony
Ask for a S30, get the “no” response expected. Call a referendum anyway, win it and become a Independent country.
All it requires is politicians in charge who want Independence.
@SC,
You critic you. Away and press your blue beret soldier boy.
We cannot win Independence without the SNP and need to keep voting for them. True
The SNP need to get their legislative program in order and remove non Independence supporting officials from positions within the party or we will not win Independence. Also true.
@George Wood 11:52pm
Careful now George, You have just described my preferred scenario perfectly. I wrote on “Wolves and Vampires” at 11:28am;
@George Wood 11:52pm
Careful now George, You have just described my preferred scenario perfectly. I wrote on “Wolves and Vampires” at 11:28am;
““As far as I’m concerned, “the plan” should be;
Step1: get sustained majority support for independence in the polls (that has begun thanks to Nicola Sturgeon)
Step2: get an SNP govt in Holyrood with a comfortable majority (looking very probable, again thanks to Nicola Sturgeon, if the Pop-Ups don’t manage to sabotage it)
Step3: give Westminster a final chance to grant an S30 order on the back of Steps 1&2 being achieved, thereby possibly putting the issue beyond doubt (they won’t grant it)
Step4: assuming Cummings refuses a S30 order, declare the sovereignty of the Scottish people and hold a confirmatory referendum without Westminster’s permission*. With Steps 1&2 firmly in place and a sympathetic EU/international community, it is our best chance of achieving independence …. in my opinion.
If you start agreeing with the likes of me on this site George, you’ll incur the wrath of Andy “evidence free” Ellis and Bob “pished up” Mack 🙂
@MBP,
He endures nothing but my sympathy for having to read your input.
You a betting man Bungo? I bet you £100 that nothing you have written will come to pass. You on ?
Put your money where yours myths currently reside.
Pay you at next meeting of AUOB if I lose. At Wings stall.
That’s how sure I am.
Reading Swinneys twitter feed, there are a lot of angry people on it about the “exam”
results. The word resign used several times. These are normal people who want the best for their kids, not the usual union crew either.
Grades marked down from poorer performing schools in deprived areas. Twenty years ago, the SNP would be these kids greatest cheerleaders. Egalitarianism.
Equality would mean equality of opportunity and the
right to be treated the same as kids from more privelaged backgrounds.
Equality to the SNP now is about the right
of men to get their lady cocks out n the women’s changeroom.
Silence from Swinney of course. Not a good look at all.
Bob Mack @ 12.27
Annnddd…..the handling fee, in the form of a donation to the Wings stall is????
🙂
@Liz g,
20%. Sounds fair.
Bob Mack @ 12.33
Very fair….the friends of Wings stall will be more than happy to facilitate fair play… 🙂
@Liz g,
, ____and take my money!!
And what would a Wings stall be doing at a pro-independence event? False pretences or what?
@MBP,
No. We will leave the con tricks to the SNP.
@Bob Mack
Will yi, aye?
@MBP,
Aye I will.
lieutenant steve, in my heart, i know i’m funny
snigger
Bungo,
That sounds pretty good to me and would agree with the essence of it but I’m perplexed why you feel we have to add caveats here and there when we already have current mandates in place.
Not using mandates that the Yes Movement worked hard to get is definitely not a vote winner in my opinion, politicians breaking promises may be an everyday occurrence but politicians in Scotland are under more scrutiny by the people here than the rest of this disunited kingdom.
People in Scotland that want independence have higher expectations from their politicians and integrity would be a key ingredient.
You may think that there are only a few of us disgruntled with the SNP now but surely breaking a covenant to have a referendum will disappoint many more.
It seems to me that the SNP leadership would rather displease their voters than upset Boris Johnson.
Bob Mack @ 12.40
But will ye no be flush cause ye won,in fact we’ll be havin the losers money,not your coin…aye!
@Sc,
That it? That’s your best shot? Cockeyed sniper right enough.
SC,
I was watching Good Morning Vietnam recently again. I see you’re a fan, alas Adrian Cronauer died 2 years ago.
@Liz g,
If Bungo is brave enough to take the wager you can have it all if I win. I think he’s all mouth and trousers though like SC.
Me Bunge Pony @ 12.40
Well ( like the song says )
“If you don’t know it by now”
Don’t be a fool man….turn up,and pay up,or not,it’s a Gentleman’s agreement as old as time….Or be forever known as a blawhard..there’s nae buddy yet ever been feart tae approach the Wings stall…we’re especially lovely and informative… 🙂
What say you…M.B. Pony shall we see ye there?
@Sc,
Blue beret (aka Frank Spencer).
Bob Mack @ 1.04
Steady on Bob Mack..
You’ll be encouraging us tae work oot we could be a wee gambling enterprise here.
But having said that….
We ( at the friends of Wings Stall )
Refuse nothing but blows.. 🙂
Bungo not paying attention as usual or has the last 5 year’s passed you bye 1 single thing and its a Quote from Blackford We will not be dragged out of the EU I will leave that one Fact with you. Be aware we have left the EU and are in the transition period.
@Robert Graham,
Save your breath. Bungo and SC are only here to play damage limitation games for the SNP hierarchy. Nothing more.
modern wingers chit chat btl
link to youtube.com
boab; mornin’ mistress ploppy Oi says
liz g; mornin’ mr ploppy Oi says, ha….ha… how we laughed
Shrodingers Cat @ 1.37
Are ye high ?
Whit oan earth are ye oan aboot.
Calm the fuck doon…and talk sense!!!
Jeasus…suffrin….fuck…
God gie me strength…..
And
I’m a fecken atheist!!!
Hi Hamish
I dare ye 100 times not tae answer 🙂
I see a solitary poster defending the SNP and their leadership getting it from all sides and still wiping the floor with them.
I’m not surprised since his assailants appear to be either pished, stupid or Unionist trolls, maybe even all three.
Nothing surprises me these days.
Ayeright @ 2.10
Aw..Comoan…. Don’t be so fecking anal aboot it.
We’re having a conversation…
And don’t ye go tellin me there’s anywhere else..that it can actually happen!!!
Pished,Stupid or Unionist… Is irrelevant..
That , the Union is over is the whole point …and it is over,my friend..
We just need to end it!
EH correct me if I am wrong but haven’t we already got these things
““As far as I’m concerned, “the plan” should be;
Step1: get sustained majority support for independence in the polls (that has begun thanks to Nicola Sturgeon)
Step2: get an SNP govt in Holyrood with a comfortable majority (looking very probable, again thanks to Nicola Sturgeon, if the Pop-Ups don’t manage to sabotage it)
Step3: give Westminster a final chance to grant an S30 order on the back of Steps 1&2 being achieved, thereby possibly putting the issue beyond doubt (they won’t grant it)
So basically all we have been waiting for is
Step4: assuming Cummings refuses a S30 order, declare the sovereignty of the Scottish people and hold a confirmatory referendum without Westminster’s permission*. With Steps 1&2 firmly in place and a sympathetic EU/international community, it is our best chance of achieving independence …. in my opinion.
But WAIT,WAIT didn’t cummings and bozo already say NO so where is this declaration of sovereignty of the Scottish people and the holding of a confirmatory referendum without Westminster’s permission*
Did I miss it
This pish definitely smells of the give us another mandate and we will definitely seriously think of an indy ref (maybe)
My predicted grade was : INDEPENDENCE
but it was downgraded to : DEVOLUTION
by the scotgov
And then ayeright or (scotsrenewables)comes riding in on his white charger to assist his fellow NS sycophants and cheerleaders
Can I ask ayeright and his fellow cheerleaders, with the corruption going on in the NEC and bullies apparently forcing policies through against the constitution where is the great leader the saviour of Scotland , question , is she and her husband NOT members of the NEC and are they NOT the most senior members of the hierarchy so should they NOT be taking action against the bullies or do they condone this authoritanianism
Seems this all started because of kids with an axe to grind.
It’s pretty transparent that a select few who have positioned themselves in key areas to further themselves and not the SNP or the independence cause are now playing there cards. Be it to push through covertly by removing opposition voices there personal agenda or to elevate themselves into MSP jobs by exploiting key areas where easy list seats could be gained for individuals who feel it’s their right to now get a top paying salary job.
It seems whenever they get caught or found out there try to excuse the aforementioned behaviour by saying it is reasonable to increase demographic numbers and representation to have an all female list. I am pretty sure one particular NEC member who is very vocal on social media championed that idea for her own personal political career move. Backed and support by the friends she has acquired she can rely on who she allows a platform to push through there own ideas on rights for trans people. The whole thing stinks.
I find it hypocritical and very much twisted when they shout about having more female representation but at the same time create and manipulate the rules to do there best to block a female (Joanne cherry) from being allowed to stand. That for me clearly shows an agenda and manipulation to suit the NEC who are working for themselves and not for the SNP or Scotland.
Either Nicola Sturgeon is in charge of the party, or she is not. Therefore, I fully expect this idiotic barring of Joanna Cherry standing in Edinburgh central to be revered forthwith.
If it is not, then it would be logical to assume that Nicola Sturgeon is not only complicit in such an anti democratic gerrymandering of process, but is happy with it. In which case she is not fit for office.
Given what has been done to Alex Salmond, her involvement in this NEW corrupt process would not surprise me in the slightest.
NS has no interest in independence. None. Six years, and she can hardly even use the word. But her and her husband have gotten michty rich, in the meanwhile. Aye, same as all the rest.
Scotland is about to be dragged wholly ilegally and against its wishes, into the toilet by England, and she tweets about her favourite novellas. Quite, quite, surreal.
That’s ‘reversed’ of course.
@Twathater 3.03am (!!!!)
“But WAIT,WAIT didn’t cummings and bozo already say NO so where is this declaration of sovereignty of the Scottish people and the holding of a confirmatory referendum without Westminster’s permission”
There is as yet no SNP majority in Holyrood (due to vote splitting in 2017) and there was no majority in the polls for independence late last year. So the conditions of my scenario had not been met back then.
To reiterate that the SNP have always said they would only go for independence when they could be reasonably certain of winning it. That is starting to be the case. Which makes it strange that the malcontents are now attempting to undermine the party. Strange and disappointing for those of us actually committed to independence that is,
@Bungo
The SNP as currently led are not going to achieve a vote, still less independence. It won’t matter if they do win even a convincing majority at the 2021 Holyrood elections, because their strategy (and the one you keep banging on about which you insist will result in success) is doomed to fail.
You won’t get another 2014 style Edinburgh Agreement. If your strategy is simply to insist like Pete Wishart that we will because British nationalist will somehow be overcome with an attack of reasonableness, you’re simply delusional.
So, I’ll ask you again:
1) What do you do when Boris Johnson says “now is not the time” again?
2) What is the timescale for a vote?
Those aren’t unreasonable questions, and should be fairly simple to answer.
Bungo
What will Sturgeon do with her 2021 Mandate for Scottish Independence?
Will she put it on her Bute House mantelpiece, along with all the other mandates she has been given by the people of Scotland?
“Just one more push”
Heard it all before Nicola.
I really can’t believe the Tories appointing Douglas Ross
as North Tory leader in Holyrood.
The devious STV voting system ensures there are a fair number
Of Tories in Holyrood so it looks like the Tories admit that they are
All of a poor quality and the current leader is a complete Dud.
Ross, in front of witnesses tried to stick his hand down the trousers
Of Labour MP Paul Sweaney. Everything dropped and covered up as
The Tories know how to do better than anyone.
A creep like this with other claims against him as a sexual deviant is the
Best they have?
Sickening to even sit in the same room as this guy.
If trust within the UK is broken to the extent that an S30 agreement is unlikely to be honoured whichever side of December it is anticipated/ desired then hopefully the Salmond faction will have learnt enough from last time around that the new list party will already have seduced sufficient numbers of McKays, McDonalds & opposition MSPs, etc to sway any vote on an early election if required (thus saving the FM and electorate from the drama of her needing to resign to achieve the same end)
Alternatively, if trust is not broken, the arch Brexiteers at CCHQ putting (former?) staunch Remainers (back) in charge of its Scottish branch could be a sign that Scotland will be remaining in, or rejoining, something resembling the EU after all..
Effijy says:
5 August, 2020 at 8:44 am
…Ross, in front of witnesses tried to stick his hand down the trousers
Of Labour MP Paul Sweaney.
Wrong Tory. I believe that was Ross Thomson. 😉
Douglas Ross just wants to persecute Gypsies and travelling people.
Bungo,
You don’t seem to understand that if the SNP are willing to flush the current mandates away, people will be angry at that?
Is this difficult for you to understand?
Yesterday I got the popcorn out, settled on a sofa, then enjoyed reading this article.
It seems clear to me that someone sat on the compliance manager, business convener and national secretary, it is too far fetched that people who volunteer for such position do this with the intention of subverting proper process. But I guess we won’t find out who. And yes, if in these positions who allow yourself to be sat on, then you should probably consider your position.
I should add that I am a member of a different political party in a different constituent part of the UK, and have for years defended a Standing Orders Committee chair you was a stickler for the rules and not a very nice person either, because being a stickler for the rules is the most important aspect of the job.
What would worry me most when I was an SNP member is that all this appears to be just about people. If for example different factions within the SNP would engage in such shenanigans because they have different views on how to bring independence about, I would not be surprised at all, since that is the most important policy of the SNP and thus it would be understandable if people feel everything goes to bring it about. But for a seat in a devolved parliament???
@MBP,
Yer no very busy for a lab worker in a time of crisis.
@ Cristian Schmidt,
Rules? Rules?.Don’t be silly man. They do not apply to the SNP hierarchy. Only the members.
Christian,
Are you saying we must adhere firmly to the rules unless they get in the way of what we want?
Andy Ellis says:
1) What do you do when Boris Johnson says “now is not the time” again?
2) What is the timescale for a vote?
Those aren’t unreasonable questions, and should be fairly simple to answer.
———————
point 1. i have no idea what bojo will do. i’m not the Brahan Seer. then again, neither are you.
however, not knowing how bojo will react isnt a reason to give up? you are so certain about what will happen if this senario plays out that we would be better off doing nothing.
this is pure sophistry and it is little wonder that yessers consider you a unionist troll?
gie yer heid a wobble andy
point 2. the holyrood election will happen either in dec or may next year. if this timescale still confuses you, refer to a calendar
SC,
Of course we don’t know what Boris will say but because we’re not asking, we’re all guessing.
I’m guessing he will tell us to fuck off, what’s your guess?
Middle class pen pushers who make the rules, working towards their own agendas, men dressed as women and lots of them prefer their own sex as partners, the SNP government needs to get some real people working for them, an even mix of people that’ll represent everyone in Scotland.
David Oga says
Agreed how did we end up here? Using an untested statistical model based on postcodes to determine grades. Listening to children on Radio Scotland this morning in car. Heartbreaking stories. Life dreams in tatters. The professor from the University of Edinburgh was correct. For the sake of fairness this decision needs revisted. Let children sit highers in the Autumn.
An excellent article by Kevin McKenna in the National newspaper, on the machinations of the SNP’s NEC and how it needs a good clear out, the likes of Alex Kerr who is also the convenor of the party’s Shettleston branch, and convenor of the SNP’s Glasgow Constituency Group, and Ian McCann, is the party’s Corporate Governance and Compliance manager, and has been described as Peter Murrell’s deputy.
Oh and McKenna adds that the jepordising of the independence movement isn’t the fault of the zoomers (McKenna adds) a favourite term of commentators eager to retain their passes to Bute House, but the fault of the SNP heirarchy that completely risks alienating its core membership.
I think McKenna has hit the nail on the head with this one.
link to thenational.scot
@Christian Schmidt,
our independence is not the big issue with these parasites/misogynists/Brutish Labour cuckoos, it is to enable men to have access to female only/protected spaces,
they hope to achieve this by control of SNP/Scot Gov constitution and law making and persecute all those that contest their misogyny,
two bills will facilitate this,
Gender Recognition Act Reform Bill,
Hate Crime Bill,
and if they pass , Scotland becomes a haven for predatory men and their woke enablers.
I think the SQA and also John Swinney got exam results in an extremely difficult situation as fair as possible. Of course there are anomalies and that is what the appeal process is for.
Data collected over the years gives solid figures for expected results. Outliers are obvious. The SQA used that solid data. Though critics are hysterical about the supposed bias toward “rich” schools the overall year on year data does not support this.
I hate saying this but the only objective test of learning is examinations. There are other assessment methods, many suiting people like me who did not perform well in exams, but these are subjective.
RM -You make it sound like some kind of Baroque Bordello with that description….very accurate!
I think we need to get some serious people back in charge!
Famous – Every single year people complain about the exam system and BBC lap it up.
My answer to all of these parents and young people. Just feckin deal with it. Stop with your bleating.
I am unhappy with things in life, it’s just life. There is too much look at poor me in this world! Too much accommodation of these eejits in the media as well.
I left school with 2 O’Grades. Guess what my own feckin fault for being a lazy fecker who hated school. I owned it. I went back to college and got my qualifications , then an honours degree in Psychology.
That’s what’s happened to the SNP. There are some real twats in the party right now.The ones who want everyone to feel sorry for them and accommodate their low self esteem.
It’s a political party not a social club , or a therapy clinic for the Facebook me too generation!
@breastplate
there is a high probability he will tell us to do one…
but that isnt a reason to give up,
why?
1. because he might say yes
2. because if he says no, whatever happens, whether thats a legal battle, an appeal to the un or the eu or the court of public opinion, etc our chances of success are much greater if we have a public vote with a 50%+ result in oor hipper
Famous 15 says
I dont agree with you. France, Germany retained their exam diet. Even England has postponed their exams until the Autumn. In a previous life I was a lecturer and an exam writer for the SQA so I am familiar with the standard moderation process. Every year students surprise you both ways. However ask the pupil who got 5As in her prelims and 5 teacher predicted A grades. Ended up with 2 As and 3Bs. Dream of doing medicine out the window. Far too important an issue to politicise. That girl deserves the right to sit her highers in the Autumn. Anything else is an injustice.
I agree SC but the impression I get from the SNP is that there is no sense of urgency and a fear of confrontation.
Exam grades are up by 5% and complaints everywhere. This year is an extraordinary one in so many areas, education being one of them. If the SQA had given grades completely as teachers put them forward the grade increase would have been around 20% which would have been attacked by the media and opposition. Individuals hard done by the SQA should appeal and hopefully their grades will be amended as they deserve.
@breastplate
regardless of what you sense from the snp…
every election going forward will be seen as a vote on the union, will be a defacto independence plebiscite
nothing can change that now
@Breastplate,
That want you to keep following because Independence is just around the next corner. Of course they forget to tell you that you are walking in circles round a Polygon.
The school exam results were always going to be jumped on by the media no matter which way they went. It was either the current version of so many marked down (the pass rate is up), or if they had gone with the teacher recommendations the results would have been declared worthless as the pass rate had increased by an unbelievable margin (it was a win-win for the MSM no matter what).
Reporting Scotland is now just a video version of The Sun, no reporting expertise and dramatic headlines, its journalists declare a scoop (exclusive) out of bullshit. They will manipulate stats to produce the highest number (93 % had their grades down graded when in reality it was 22%, you have to analyse the wording to get the reality).
Of course those that did not get the grades they expected are going to whinge, the same happens even when there is a real exam.
Jesus. SC and Bungo should be getting paid OT for that shift.
Of course they have an agenda, they’re SNP staffers or other.
They seem to believe more is better. It aunt. The Bard got it right – methinks they protest too much.
I see still silence over Cherrygate.They hope if they ignore it, it will disappear.
I’m still waiting for those at the top to go and I hope soonest.
I’m mad as hell. We’re still having to fight The Mooth and Ross Cons.
This should have been finished by now.
We should be indy in the EU or EFTA and no longer have to worry about these nutters
A death due to Covid-19?
link to thetimes.co.uk
or death due to incompetence and neglect?
On how many occasions have the circumstances of this event been repeated?
SARS CoV-2 is such a convenient excuse for systemic failure.
@Breastplate & SC
You’re right, there is no sense of urgency because the party as currently led has no political courage. It avails is nothing to have great poll ratings if there is no plausible plan to achieve a vote and vanishingly little prospect of the gradualists having the guts to fight for it even if there was.
Naturally gradualist shills like SC & Bungo insist it’s the only way, but all we can predict that, on the balance of probabilities, their lack of a Plan B makes a vote or actual indy un achievable this decade. That’s what they really mean by building support: another decade for the party to be big fish in a small devolutionary pond.
Of course as Wings and others have been pointing out for ages, there is no chance of an agreed S30 Order sanctioned indyref2, and no Plan B from the SNP. The gradualist LD magical thinking that they will be able to deliver because *reasons* becomes no more convincing for the constant repetition.
Of course nobody can predict future events with certainty. What we can predict with some confidence however is that the current SNP leadership cannot deliver Indy any time soon.
There has never been a year and there never will be a year
When everyone gets the exam results they thought they would.
Society puts too much pressure on people to pass these exams
With flying colours or proposes they are subject to a life of failure.
I’m my case at school I enjoyed Chemistry and always got marks
Above 60% even if I never studied for the tests along the way.
The exam came in two halves but they suggested I’d only got
Somewhere between 40-50%?
I did do very well in the exam and was very confident.
I felt certain that they must have lost one of the two papers.
I had the job I was after and didn’t need Chemistry so I didn’t
Think it was worth chasing up, so I left it.
For any youngsters reading I’d like to mention a close relative who
Worked hard at school and got great O Grade results.
Worked hard on her Highers but got very disappointing marks.
She wanted to go to Uni so she simply said the pressure had got to her,
she said she now had to go to College for 2 years to gain access to Uni
and that way she will get the degree she was after.
She is a high flyer in a prestigious job with a very good salary that supports her
Own house, fancy car and far flung holidays.
There are lots of routes to a contented and happy life.
There are many millionaires who left school without any qualifications.
It all comes down to your attitude to get on in whichever job you have.
No one sat exams before building the pyramids or the Great Wall of China.
I have often considered running for my local council elections for the SNP, one day I went to see my local SNP MSP about something, he was in my local library, he did not even have the good manners to get back to me with my complaint.
I will not name his as I would not like to embarrass him here on this forum
Anyway, having wasted my time with him, i was actually glad that I never actually considered running for the SNP.
I had a problem with water coming into my mothers kitchen a few years ago, I gave a good labour man a call, he was even in the next town and was housebound at that time due to his bad health
You know that man was awesome, council guys where there before you could say, good gracious some bloody eeejit has stolen ma pint. that was the quality of man labour had at that time.
And we in the SNP are stuck with a guy who could not be bothered to reply to me about my complaint
@andy
there is no plausible plan to achieve a vote
—————–
except there will be a vote in 9 months or before xmas
————
their lack of a Plan B
——————–
except the alternative to plan A, indyref2, which i have never mentioned, which is plan B, ie the next election being an indy plebiscite
whats your plan B? “wont someone somewhere do something”?
feel free to contribute
And I forgot to mention, we have another snp man standing against him in the future, who do you think I will vote for ?
A little clue, I live in Inverclyde
The whole schooling situation has been very difficult. No one should under estimate that. And of course schooling has been, and will continue to be a fertile area for ya boo politicking.
Exam results however are a vexing issue. For many they are the absolute key to the future for without them you don’t get the job, the college or university place that you planned.
Clearly in combination the educational pass rate assessments tumbled out much higher than what is indicated by all of the previous results. A twenty percent hike in pass rates in the bottom twenty percent of pupils identified to be from deprived backgrounds does not sound credible. And yes, it maybe arises from teachers as a whole marking pupils up at levels beyond previous years.
But to step forward and say that you are moderating something like 26% of pupils down to failure because they are identified as coming from social economic group C/D whilst only marking down something like 6% identified as maybe economic social group A/B was done for credibility, is plain wrong.
The schools and the SQA knew what was coming. The schools across the country put in prior lists of how they saw the pass rates. This was not unexpected, but what is unexpected is to declare publicly that different social groups were being marked down differently because of the social group that they came from. And the FM’s bold declaration to say that it was is arrogant – even if it might actually be the truth.
Yes it was never going to be easy, yes there is a large element of politicking, but surely that SQA could, should and did know what was coming.
Regarding the exams : This was always going to be difficult but trying to fit an extraordinary year into an algorithm so that ‘the integrity of the system was preserved’ was ridiculous.
During the first world war degrees were pass/fail and everyone knows that was no reflection on the individual but allowances were made for those returning from war or who had to interrupt their degree.
This is an extraordinary time. The year 20/20 will have all sorts of connotations from now on. No one this year can be judged the way last year’s candidates were. Uni students are getting their degrees on a no detriment basis i.e.they cannot get degree lower than their submitted work would determine. They can only improve. It should be the same for the SQA.
So they should have been allowed their estimated grades, every one of them. What was the problem? There will be a short fall in Uni places as overseas.candidates are down. We have a system already that rewards where you grew up and went to school rather than effort. The results this year would seem to have emphasised that even with the paltry 4 % increase.
Guess what? Once you get to Uni it all evens out anyway as you do not have the hothousing that private school and tutors enable.
Let the pass mark go up by 20% – it might surprise people what the effect actually is. The effect on confidence and knowing you aren’t being screwed by the system might have a better effect than what has happened. Decisions like this affect you in all sorts of ways. When you are young people tell you to work hard and it will be fine. Bullshit. Yesterday on Radio Shortbread they had a girl from Heriot’s in Edinburgh. Surprise, surprise her estimated grade was higher than she expected and she didn’t even need the result, she had her place.
Young people who knew their teachers wanted the best for them have been screwed over by a cowardly SQA.
Willie says
I agree with the sentiment of your post. And we shouldn’t be policticking on this issue at all. As you say because future income streams are dependent on exam results I think this SQA statistical model is legally challengeable. But also the consequences of shattered dreams under these dubious circumstances is incalculable. We need a mechanism in place to give pupils an opportunity to redress their grievances. It is possible at this stage to organise a diet of Highers in October. That would be my solution
@SC,
The plebiscite route has been examined to death. It has no legal standing within International law. It has to be organised through agreement with Westminster.
Imagine if Westminster declare such a referendum illegal. What could They do I hear you say?
They could actively withdraw al! Services provided by the Crown. Law ,civil service, benefits taxes. Every aspect of non devolved responsibility removed along with some devolved
Your passport becomes invaiid.Air routes cancelled.
They could also tell Unionists to embargo such a referendum. Unionists excluded from vote shouts the headlines.
Plebiscite with this in the background? Try again.
This has been looked at time and time again by experts of al! hues. It is possible but you better be prepared to go to war with a third of the population using hand tools.
Well said Terry callachan I could not have put it better myself, no matter what we must vote SNP, after Independence then will be the time to take stock
Mialuci – I live near you and I have the EXACT same with an SNP MSP.
Never replies to emails. I know there is a lot of quite rightful flak here about “Ruthie D”, but I have asked around and everyone who has come into contact with my SNP MSP says he is useless (and arrogant).
I have an SNP MP who is, by contrast, good at replying and getting things done.
I have also noticed on this board, in other parts of the country, the same complaints about SNP MPs.
I think this is maybe a problem in that Holyrood does not obligate elected members to respond in the same way that Westminster does. Westminster drills home the responsibility of MPs and has the “green card” system as well. Not sure Holyrood does.
But, most importantly, SNP members have discovered that, as the only “pro-indy show” in town (outside the list vote), in a country where the constitutional issue is the number one problem, they can rely on a solid block of YES votes… and then, pardon me, do F ALL in return for these votes.
It is the same story as “Scottish Labour” all over again. I think the remedy is to have a new party contest not just the list, but at least put up candidates in the constituencies. Yes, it costs money and there will probably be no real chance to cost-effectively campaign. But at least a wee crowd fundraiser towards the deposit – and, who knows, if they stand as the “YES Party” (or YES-Party-against-the-cancellation-of-women-and-hate-laws-and-all-thngs-woke) they might even get a few seats!
The problem with the SQA is that they’re ignoring any learning that took place after schools closed to most pupils. Some stayed open for those facing these exams remember. They are applying a model based on the expected outcome if the year had progressed as planned. What it may not have taken into account is the change in environment either to less crowded class rooms or remote study. Or that the teachers may still have been in contact with the pupils and getting feedback that indicated progress was being made.
Grades were based on subject teachers’ estimates moderated by the SQA.
Estimates were based on evidence of pupil performance in each subject plus teachers’ judgement.
Evidence will not be remotely consistent across subjects, schools, or even individual cohorts of pupils.
Judgements will not be consistent from school to school or from teacher to teacher.
There will have been a lot of overly optimistic calls, particularly where there is a lack of evidence. Even reams of classwork, homework and coursework do not replicate what an exam does.
The SQA seems to have looked for glaring outliers based on past performance from examination centres.
What’s so wrong about this?
@Andy Ellis 8:18am
“So, I’ll ask you again:
1) What do you do when Boris Johnson says “now is not the time” again?
2) What is the timescale for a vote?
Those aren’t unreasonable questions, and should be fairly simple to answer.
And I will answer you for the umpteenth time;
“Step4: assuming Cummings refuses a S30 order, declare the sovereignty of the Scottish people and hold a confirmatory referendum without Westminster’s permission*. With Steps 1&2 firmly in place and a sympathetic EU/international community, it is our best chance of achieving independence …. in my opinion“.
Perhaps this time you’ll retain it in your memory …. or, more likely, you will continue to pretend those questions haven’t been answered over and over and over again.
Speaking of unanswered questions, have you found any evidence to back your preferred route to independence. I have asked for that over and over and over again …. but still nothing.
@Bob Mack 9:23 am
“@MBP,
Yer no very busy for a lab worker in a time of crisis“.
Do you think we’re held hostage in the lab 24/7? Have you sobered up yet?
@Liz 10:28 am
“Jesus. SC and Bungo should be getting paid OT for that shift. Of course they have an agenda, they’re SNP staffers or other“.
Another one for the tin foil hat club.
Bungo,
You have said you gave answers to questions but I seem to have missed your answer on the timescale of a referendum.
@Breastplate 2:02pm
I have mentioned that several times too but, for the sake of completeness, I would think it could be held late 2021/early 2022.
@MBP,
You realise holding a referendum without agreement leads us to a very bad place indeed.
1.It will Be boycotted by every Unionist and probably most Councils and schools. Westminster will send a message it is illegal
2. Westminster will pull the plug immediately on every service which they control. Courts,Judges the lot.Everything
Air corridors road routes,sea routes. Everything can be closed off.
3. Having already established precedent of the method (Edinburgh Agreement), no country will recognise us.
Many noted Constitutional lawyers have answered this question.
They say there is only one way.
4.You are supposing that the 30% hard-core Unionists population will simply just give up their British identity via what they would consider an illegal act. Good luck with that.
@Bob Mack
Remember, unreasoning gradualists & knee jerk loyalist party drones like Bungo and SC have a faith based position. No amount of evidence or argument will shake their magical thinking that Nicola will somehow deliver a vote in 2021 or 22 because *reasons*.
We are asked to suspend belief and have faith in their assertion (for that is all that it is) that Britnat opposition will somehow melt awa’ like snaw aff a dyke. There is of course next to zero chance of it happening, as Stu Campbell and others have been pointing out for months. The higher SNP support the LESS chance there is of yoons agreeing to what they term a “legal” referendum. Some gradualists are of course stupid enough to buy this snake oil. Others know it is just an easy sell to the hard of analysis like Bungo & SC so they can pretend to want indy whilst relaxing in their devolutionary sinecures for another decade.
@Andy Ellis,
The English have for decades reduced our capacity to trade with the world by reducing our infrastructure. Think of the ports that have been closed. Huge amounts of our trade leave from English ports and airfields.
They can shut them off any time they like because it would take us years to make them viable again. Exports gone.
They control so many aspects of Scottish life. Banking HQs al! Based in London. English firms based in Scotland and vice vesa .Shut off money supply. They can do that.
No energy because troops will protect oil and and gas terminals for Westminster. Turn off the taps.
Devolution only gives us so much control over anything.
Still no evidence that your preferred plan for achieving independence would fair any better than mine Andy. Care to post it now?
All I’m hearing from the two of you is how achieving independence is “impossible“. Are you really sure you support it? It would explain a lot if you admit you don’t.
Of course, both of you could just provide the evidence of your respective plans for indy that are “infallible” …. but on past performance, it wont be forthcoming
@MBP,
I think we had a plan for Indy all right but it wasn’t the SNP plan. We should have been disrupting their parliament at every turn. Creating bad feeling from the Ennglish public.
Sowing disharmony wherever possible. Court proceedings to establish Scottish sovereignty of the people over Westminster
rule and our right to have a referendum if we chose via Claim of Right. The list is endless. None of it was done.
So we are where we are, looking around the next corner in hope where there is none. Johnson will get round to us soon enough, and it won’t be pretty.
@MBP,
Imagine you are Boris Johnson. Would you take the steps I have outlined above to bring Scotland to heel if they remain defiant? ( which with Nicola is unlikely)
ALL we hear from SC and MBP is with an increased vote for NS and the SNP in the HR election unicorns WILL happen , we have SC punting furiously an early HR election and if not a surge of seats will FORCE NS to overcome her cowardice and confront bozo the circus clown , then we have MBP proposing the 4 steps to heaven scenario where we must follow the 4steps rigidly or santander won’t come
SC early election good idea ,list seats good idea , NS she say NO
MBP 4 steps to heaven idea already wore the teashirt it’s beginning to become faded , needs a NEW BETTER teashirt
Notice with ALL these ideas being proposed by SC and MBP they ALL require everyone to swallow the GRA and HCB and ignore the corruption endemic throughout the SNP with her maj and hubby right at the centre of it , I think it’s called wheeeesht for the SNP vote and maybeeees indy in 20something
Me SANTA not santander predictive text a ********
@Twathater,
If I was Boris I could bring Scotland to heel within weeks of holding a referendum. That is fact. He has a large majority in Westminster who will back any action he takes to keep the UK intact, regardless of how many Scots support independence.
He has a vote from 2014 which said he was right. That superseded any current opinion poll you care to mention.
We should have been fighting this long before now and all we are doing is a rearguard action which is too little too late.
@Bungo
Why would I admit any such thing? Remember, I’m not the one hiding behind anonymity here Bungo. Folk who care to find out know my background. They know I was one of the #cybernat7 othered by the Daily Heil. They know I was an SNP member who resigned over the party;s treatment of GrouseBeater. they saw the picture of my membership card cut in two. All we know about you is you claim to support indy, to work in a lab, and that you spend an inordinate amount of time not answering fairly simple questions and arguing in bad faith.
I don’t have to justify myself, because unlike you I’m not a snivelling anonymous coward without the courage of my convictions.
Neither I, nor anyone else has ever claimed the plan for plebiscitary elections was infallible. you continually straw-man people on here, and it isn’t a good look. All we’ve ever said is that, on the balance of probabilities the chances of achieving a vote are objectively much higher with our route than they are with yours.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but not to your own class of facts. as someone who claims to be a scientist, that shouldn’t be a difficult concept for you to grasp.
It’s relatively simple: your plan (such as it is) is doomed to almost certain failure, because nobody will recognise your “confirmatory referendum” held after Boris says no, for exactly the same reason they wouldn’t recognise it if it was held now without a S30 Order. It’s hardly rocket science.
The alternative being posited by this site and many others, is that the SNP embrace the concept of Plebiscitary elections. Unlike an “unofficial” referendum, they are not subject to yoon veto, or to legal challenge, and a pro-indy majority is vastly more likely to be accepted by the international community than your favoured plan.
Of course there is no certainty in either route. Such is politics. What any reasonable observer can do, is judge which is more likely to be successful, and which is more likely to actually happen in the first place. As others have pointed out, yours is essentially just another “wheesht for indy” argument, asking us to trust the party to deliver. The thing is, many of us no longer have that trust.
@Andy Ellis,
A plebiscite election means nothing if Johnson does not recognise Scotland as a different country rather than part of the UK.
Legally be could demand everybody in the UK has a vote if he so desired.
It’s wishful thinking.
@Bob Mack
Not so. Referendums are, both historically and constitutionally, a relatively uncommon route to independence. As discussed here and elsewhere previously, the cases of Quebec (which blazed the trail), Scotland and Catalonia are somewhat different to the large numbers of countries which became independent in relatively moderns times: most involved de-colonisation, some disintegration of existing larger entities like the USSR or Yugoslavia.
It is always possible that British nationalists could assert they wouldn’t recognise a pro-independence majority in a plebiscitary election, but in the end it’s not their decision it’s up to the international community and to the people of Scotland whether they accept such a veto. The advantage of treating a Westminster or Holyrood election as a plebiscitary mandate, is that it is not open to the same legal/constitutional prohibition as an indyref.
British nationalists asserting that the whole of the UK must agree to Scotland becoming independent, much like the purported Spanish constitutional prohibition on secession, has no validity in international law. Self determination is a jus cogens (also known as a peremptory norm) which cannot be curtailed with reference to constitutional bans, appeals to preservation of territorial integrity or historical precedent.
It may be wishful thinking to expect the supine SNP to assert the right to secession following plebiscitary elections, but it’s certainly not wishful thinking. Indeed, it’s much more likely, on the balance of probabilities, that independence could be achieved more quickly using that route than by the delusion British nationalists will somehow “inevitably” succumb to our overwhelming umpteenth mandate sometime in the 2030’s!
@Andy Ellis
We will know soon enough Andy. Martin Keatings court case will decide the legality of Scots having power for any rdferendum.
Update tomorrow I think. Court will rule whether the issues of any referendum are devolved or not Here’s hoping..
@Andy Ellis
“you continually straw-man people on here, and it isn’t a good look
I don’t think any of the three of us can claim the moral high ground there Andy.
As to the methods of achieving independence; you are acknowledging that plebiscitary elections are not a slam dunk solution. Great, that’s all I’ve been saying. I’ve stated before somewhere on these threads that if your scenario successfully played out then fantastic.
However, it falls foul of all the possible problems Bob points out regarding my scenario of a confirmatory referendum. But neither of our scenarios precludes the other. They essentially complement each other. “Belt and Braces” if you like. Maybe the Belt of a plebiscitary election will be enough but, if not, there’s always the Braces of a confirmatory referendum. Neither require the permission of Westminster but are heavily reliant on international recognition. There’s nothing can be done about that without the S30.
Bob’s plan of essentially “annoying England into chucking us out” (I exaggerate for effect) is no more likely to succeed than any of ours. In my opinion, it is as likely to annoy Scots as English and be counter productive for that reason,
All In all, I really don’t know why we’re fighting over this.
@Bob Mack
The SNP should have done what Martin Keatings is doing years ago. It’s a huge indictment of them that they failed to do so: it’s always been a red flag for me that their gradualism extended so far that they failed to do so. With luck the court will find in his favour: assuming they do, the party will have nowhere to hide which will be interesting.
However if the court finds against Keatings then at least we know where we stand. There will be even less excuse then for the gradualists to determinedly refuse to have a Plan B. Gradualists gonna gradualise!
You seem to have some sort of “gradualism” obsession Andy. Not sure what the definition of a “gradualist is in the context of the Indy movement since 2014. To me, it appears you believe anyone unwilling to go gung-ho for an Indy vote even when the odds were significantly against us is a “gradualist“. I would have said “pragmatist” was a more accurate description.
@Bungo
I never said any solution was a slam dunk. You appear capable of starting an argument in an empty room.
The issue is your insistence that your fanciful plan will produce results in the short to medium term. It’s incredibly unlikely it will do so. Not impossible no, but just so vanishingly unlikely that I’m genuinely perplexed at your dogged insistence that we just have to trust Nicola, and a vote will fall into our lap. If you honestly believe that you’re either so gullible I have a bridge to sell you, or you’re just trolling for effect.
International recognition after a plebiscitary election is entirely unrelated to the S30 issue. If the courts decide Holyrood does need Westminster’s “permission” to hold a referendum, then that game’s a bogey. You can’t go on ad infinitum insisting that indyref2 is just going to magically happen in that case.
The reason I find you and other milquetoast gradualists exasperating is that you are collectively the most clear and present danger to achieving independence, not the unionists.
Since the SNP has little prospect of delivering on its raison d’être, I find I have less and less time for slavish loyalists droning on about trusting them.
@Bungo
If you can’t discern the meaning of concept of gradualism you haven’t been paying attention. Anyone familiar with WoS take on it can’t claim not to understand. Since 2014 the SNP has essentially sat on its hands.
It signally failed to put the matter of holding a referendum without a S30 Order beyond legal doubt. It prioritised stopping brexit over promoting indyref2. It became distracted with side issues with zero popular appeal like GRA and the new Hate Crime Bill.
The odds are more against us than they should be because the party fails to campaign. We can’t win without a vote, We can’t win without a campaign. Gradualism ensures we have neither. The reason for that is you and those who think like you….although I’m not sure much thought is involved in “wheesht for indy”.
[…] been a lot of talk in the last couple of weeks about the SNP NEC, the rather secretive body that controls the operation of the party (and therefore also in effect […]
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
4 August, 2020 at 11:05 am
“‘Are we at 54% because of the SNP (Leadership) OR in spite of it?’”
Given the circumstances of the last three years we should be at 65% by now, minimum.
Ain’t that the truth.