That’s that one sorted, then
Posted on
March 10, 2017 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
We joke, of course. The Spanish government has made this position abundantly plain several times over a number of years, and it still doesn’t stop idiot Yoons (and media pundits who should know better) from spouting it.
But this time, in the flesh, it’s really quite hard to spin a way out of.
.
The “procedure”, incidentally, would go something like this:
SCOTLAND: Can we join/stay, please?
EU: Do you meet all the criteria?
SCOTLAND: Yes, we’ve been a member for 40 years already in the UK.
EU: Welcome! There seems to be a seat free.
And they’ll continue, hoping the audience knows no better!
Ahh, BBC Scotland must be so disappointed.
Wow and BBC Scotland news have us this treasure.
Are we dreaming or in a parallel universe.
If you have n’t already tweeted it Stu, allow me.
Hope it goes viral, lol.
Timely again, well done!
It’possible that the EU bigwigs are already discussing keeping us in hence the apparently different stance from the old Spanish voices.
Did you notice how the Tory immediately jumped in with the EU will take all our fish and our agriculture and our blood and the gold in our teeth in exchange for membership
And the EU is totally Baad says the Tory MEP who has been earning his living there and is under instructions from Mrs May to say that even though they’re the ones who would bargain away yer maw given the chance
Another thought, as Unionists will be making arguments that Scotland would still need to leave. If NI were to reunite with Ireland would it need to reapply to join the the EU?
I know that’s a hypothetical, just a thought.
Maybe the Beeb actually interviewed a real Spanish politician and not one spouting the establishment agenda !! Or is it Spain does well out of Scottish waters and would like to continue trading with an independent Scotland ?
Us: “Podemos Unirnos”
Spain “Si”
Sorted.
I liked the “very, very, very different” bit best 😀
Are the Spanish playing Hardball with Westminister……. “we’ll let the Scots in if you don’t give us access to Scottish waters “.?
Esteban Gonzalez Pons is a member of the Group of the European People’s Party (Christian Democrats), with 217 MEPs. The Deputy / Leader (I forget) has already indicated support for Scotland, but this seems to confirm that that support, or at least lack of opposition, is in depth. So add that to the 50 from the Group of the Greens/European Free Alliance, and perhaps bearing in mind David Martin, the Group of the Progressive Alliance of Socialists and Democrats in the European Parliament with 189 MEPs – 456 out of 750, with the other groups unknown rather than opposing, it’s looking very promising for theEuropean Parliament at least.
We’ve been putting out the message that Catalonia in Spain is very different from Scotland in the UK, constitutionally, and it’s good to hear Esteban Gonzalez Pons saying exactly the same thing.
Glen Campbell must have been off today.
He’ll be bealin that that one slipped thru the net.
Don’t worry, oor Glen will interview an MEP from every EU country until he finds somebody to say that Scotland has no chance of joining the EU.
Well I’m glad that’s sorted out early in the discussion.
Next?
Hi Brian, NI and ROI is just another Esat/West Germany. As far as fish is concerned we would be doing the negotiating as we could always join EFTA.
Auld Rock
Are there any Project Fear Dominoes left to fall?
How about the immediate bombing of our airports? Has that been officially debunked yet?
East Germany and West Germany unified and became the one member state without any problems.
“..there seems to be a seat free”.
*Mops coffee off screen*
Bloody brilliant.
@Brian Powell
East Germany reunited with West Germany, and was absorved into the EU with very little problem. That would set a precedent I would think for Northern Ireland.
But as that would be another little step to working pragmatically within the Treaties, it would clearly help Scotland’s case.
I think formally Scotland would clearly have to apply to join the EU, but effectively in all but the Treaties themselves, from still inside.
Clearly it is not what BBC Scotland would have wanted to hear, which makes me surprised and suspicious as to why they actually broadcast it.
But, but… I was listening to David Owen and Shirley Williams (ex gang of 4 for younger viewers from 1983)) on Radio 4 last night who said, that “Spain would veto Scotland’s entry”
It was gospel! 🙂
Seriously though, now that shortbread are going with that then there will be much banging of heads and gnashing of teeth in all the Unionist Yooniverse.
Just in time for the BBC EU Brexit debate too! Good timing.
Boom ! Another myth busted.
I think the planets are aligning – just need A50 and Nicola to announce indyref2 vote in Holyrood and the whole Westminster Brexit disaster will go into a complete meltdown.
Been a good week. 🙂
I can feel Independence in the air and a United Ireland to follow in a few years.
Funny how the Spanish Government/Rajoy seem less inclined to do Brexit Mayhem any favours, unlike back in Cameron’s day.
Perhaps Alyn Smith and Ian Hudghton have been working hard behind the scenes.
It’s handy to have something like this on the record. It will come in useful every time a Unionist politician tries to claim otherwise.
At street level, I doubt it would make anyone change their vote from “No” to “Yes”.
Spain will do everything in its power to avoid any comparison between Scotland and Catalonia now. When we first went for independence, we would be shut out of the EU, and it suited them to keep up the pretence that Catalonia and Scotland were in the same boat, because waving the veto threat around over Scotland allowed them to threaten Catalonia by-proxy. Now, of course, Scotland might actually get independence, so they want no comparisons between Scotland and Catalonia ever again – because that might imply that Catalonia could also gain independence successfully.
See, the Spanish are not quite as stupid as the red and blue Tories.
Well that’s very clear. The Spanish Veto Myth is debunked.
Of course, such clarity won’t stop agitated unionist characters from repeating the Myth ad nauseam, in every online forum, from now until the next referendum.
They hope to make people believe their lie by the brute force of repetition, drowning the truth in a flood of misinformation.
Our task is to act as lifeguards and save the unfortunate truth before it goes under for the last time…
Oh aye, apart from my own brilliant, incredible and most interesting blog I intend keeping clean, linked above which of course the Rev could provide a link to on the pages, hint hint, with a rough and ready budget share cost for Scotland, and an intention to add a brief section on EFTA / EEA and keep all up to date, here’s a useful link to get the picture of the EU Parliament groups to which MEPs belong
link to europarl.europa.eu
and here’s the full list of MEPs so when you see one, you can look up his or her party. Clearly groups are individuals as well, but they do seem to work together.
link to europarl.europa.eu
It was often said during the last referendum that there wasn’t an official EU position with regards to Scotland’s Membership because that could only come if a member state formally asked the question. This was always assumed to be the UK that would have to ask and that they never would.
Considering how much the UK is burning it’s diplomatic bridges, I suspect at some point during the Brexit Negotiations, one of the more Pro-Scottish Countries will take the opportunity to create a headache for the UK by formally asking the question instead.
Scott at 7:43 pm
At street level, what I found was that everybody’s granny gets their news from the Daily Express and the BBC. So it might have more of an effect than you think.
Before the rugby starts it occurs to me that the Group of the Greens/European Free Alliance (50 strong) which includes the 2 SNP MEPs, had their recent annual Conference in Glasgow to show their solidarity, so it’s not just the 2 SNP MEPs have probably been working behind the scenes, it’s probably most of that group of 50.
Which does show the importance of the Scottish Green Party supporting Independence, at a guess I’d say their influence within that group is higher than the SNP’s – the name of the Group tells a little story perhaps! The Greens are our friends …
Even here the BBC don’t report it properly.
The presenter uses the term ‘has suggested’ when ‘has said’ or ‘has stated’ would be much more appropriate.
@Mike
“Are there any Project Fear Dominoes left to fall?”
We’re still susceptible to alien invasion. In fact it may even be more likely if Prestwick becomes a spaceport.
Auntie’s Scottish website still not showing the whole story it’s been up about 40mins now although nicely tucked away in the corner down the bottom.
Dare say it’ll get a bigger splash once Rennie, Dugdale and the other one…the, the Tory… give it the all clear.
link to bbc.co.uk
Great news, but still too easy for the BBC to bury.
Rather than the EU just answering Qs on indy Scottish entry/membership quietly but nicely, it would be better it they could make it loud and proud, and impossible for the BBC to ignore (which they will try to do in any case).
Come on EU, do us a favour – shout it from the bloody rooftops:
Scotland is in!
Another thought, as Unionists will be making arguments that Scotland would still need to leave. If NI were to reunite with Ireland would it need to reapply to join the the EU?
Almost certainly not. See “East Germany”.
Ian – they put a negative slant on everything to do with the SNP and Independence.
Good to strike another lie off their list.
Maybe the Reverend needs to do some polling on what effect these comments may or may not have. Can any effect be quantified?
Well that’s interesting.
Of course, this assumes that post independence we’d be happy to give up being ruled from London to be ruled by Brussels in a refernedum, right…?
The Scottish and Catalan situations are no longer equivalent. That’s simply a fact. Scotland would be trying to join/stay having formerly been part of a state that’s not in the EU. In that respect the Baltic and ex-Yugoslav states are Scotland’s precedent – and,Spain had no problem with them.
Building bridges…
link to imgur.com
Och, anyone with any brain cells knows that Scotland would be more than welcome at the EU, in every which way.
We have sooo many resources, sooooo much produce, they simply would be really daft to attempt to veto Scotland’s continuation as a valued, very valuable member of the EU. The yoons know that, which is why they are going all out to discredit the Scottish parliament, and why they ignore, and/or ridicule our democractically elected SNP MP’s now sitting in WM. The yoons can’t stand that we have 56 SNP MP’s. Too bad!
The pretence by the yoons to make it look like the EU27 would have any qualms at all about Scotland remaining, is so obviously their own insecurity and panic that they could well lose their long standing, compliant gravy train.
The EU27 would have Scotland as a valued member quick as you can say jack flash.
Just looking online at the Glensanda quarry up near Oban today. I bet any revenues from such a massive producing stone quarry were or are not included in GERS! Thats your land that is, being quarried, with the stone going to the US, and er, the south of England, and elsewhere. Lovely stone mind.
It’s not just oil that the yoons take.
Mind you they have tried to take Scotland’s identity, partly succeeded, but now that is changing. Not least because identity and the meaning of it is changing. You can love your country, and still be inclusive.
The yoons are exclusive. Something really stinks about exclusivity.
Looking at the masks, and the internationality of cultures at the museum in Edinburgh yesterday, I was struck by the way that humans look at themselves and how they look at others, and how they express their own fears.
Like my mother used to say, never be scared of the dead, it’s the living that will hurt you!
As a side note, my son texted asking if there was any ‘Monster in the house’ crikey I thought, better call him. It was that awful energy drink he meant, but I had been looking at monstrous masks for a while. LOL.
I cannot think of one country other than England and the far right politicians and groups who think they are RULED by Brussels. They have choices.
Where does this Brussels rules nonsense come from anyway? Why do people believe it?
These arguments are putting the cart before the horse.
It isn’t at all clear that an Independent Scotland arising while still in the EU, would at any point be outside the EU requiring to get back in. There is nothing to veto, although there will have to be some administrative reorganisation. There seems a presumption in such comments that Brexit seems bound to happen first. Strikes me that’s a poor show on Scotland’s part if we allow that to happen.
With regards to NI, yes there are close parallels with German unification, but to tweak that perspective a little, when German reunification occurred, there was no precedent for such a thing to happen until the EU enabled the process to happen. The EU set a new precedent appropriate to the event. No drama. No fuss. And as far as I’m aware, no vetoes.
So there are clear parallels for both both NI and Scotland; NI would simply come under the Irish umbrella like East Germany did on reunification, and where Scotland is concerned, where no precedent already exists, the EU will simply create one. If Scotland wants to remain a member, and the EU wants Scotland as a member, we should have confidence that a simple mechanism will be devised to see it happens.
When both parties want something to happen, the EU will find a way to make it happen. I forget which EU big fish has already said as much, but I think it was Jean-Claude Juncker.
Theresa May will be spitting blood when she hears this
Ooops!
I suspect we are about to witness more jobs being lost at “Keep the Jocks in their place” HQ a.k.a. Pacific Quay after THAT broadcast then.
*shouts from D.G. (Jocks) office of “does NO ONE do any research before broadcasting these uppity Jock pieces?*
Until we achieve Independence we have no friends in the UK, afterwards we’ll have a whole bunch of hingers oan pretendy ones and the Unionist parties will still go into overdrive to make it all look like a giant mistake so’s they can get elected to do it better
And Willie Rennie will want a referendum that isn’t a referendum on the details of the “doesn’t have to be final deal if we don’t want it and must be debated at Holyrood bill”
After all Willie speaks for, well, Willie and everybody that we don’t know about
So a lot
That was always Spain’s position, they just never said it out loud before the last referendum because their EU partner was the UK government, and so they did nothing to undermine the UK’s wish for Scotland to stay in the UK.
Brexit was a game changer – now the UK government is no longer viewed as an EU partner, and Scotland is being sized up as a potential one. It reminds me of when Nicola Sturgeon was invited to address the Irish Seanad recently – Ireland always felt like that, they just didn’t show it while the UK was an important ally.
Where power lies in the EU is interesting, but of the power structures the Parliament probably has the least. The Council of Minister holds the most (and is least open about how decisions are made) with the Commission following on.
However that said the Scottish Government has been playing a blinder, winning support critically in Germany (public opinion too). Merkel and the Greens are supportive of an independent Scotland joining and they are useful friends to have, practically all the UK concessions and rebates from the EU over the years have been won because of German support (and advocacy) on behalf of the UK. Germany is the biggest power player both in population size (qualified majority voting makes Poland important too) and size of economy in the EU (got to love Angus Robertson and his fluent German).
The UK has (to quote my sister who has worked for the EU and lobbied it for twenty years) an unfortunate predilection for gunboat diplomacy, they seem unable to manage (as is the way of most other EU governments) the required “give and take” that securung deals in the EU requires. Possibly because there isn’t a history of coalition politics in Westminister. So hard brexit is probably all they can achieve.
An independent Scotland will be welcomed precisely because it will give the EU a wonderful opportunity to say ‘sod you’ to Westminster.
Re;Luigi@8.13pm
Hmm, are some factions of the EU playing games with Scotland? A bargaining chip? They know fine well that Scotland is a huge, huge asset, er fishing, oil, renewables, land, water, stone! So are likely playing that down just now. Don’t let Scotland know that in fact, they are so very important, at least, not yet.
I don’t know chess, but where would Scotland be on the board right now?
Breeks @8.40pm
You stated: “When both parties want something to happen, the EU will find a way to make it happen.”
This is absolutely correct. I have the following on record from a senior European Commission official in part response to a question I posed on Scotland’s potential status re-EU membership:
“Accession is not just a legal process but is a matter of political will. Should accession be the will of the Member States, it would be the role of the European Commission to facilitate the arrangements as smoothly and quickly as possible.”
@SquirrelTower – there are plenty of reasons why the EU wants Scotland to stay but your last sentence is correct too, it is a chance for the rest of Europe to stick two fingers up to the Brexit crowd.
@call me dave
That’t the unionists line though, like Ian Duncan (European Conservatives and Reformists Group with 74 MEPs which the UK wants to leave):
“We in the UK all need to work together to get the best deal to leave the EU and the SNP should work with us to leave the EU which they don’t want to do and neither does Scotalnd but it’s disloyal and they’re stabbing us in the back if they don’t work with us to do something they don’t want to do and which isn’t in their interest nor in Scotland’s, but it’s back-stabbing for them not to work with us, and sob it’s a disgrace they’re representing Scotland which wants to stay in the EU when they should be working sob with the UK to leave the EU which they don’t want to do”.
I just read that back over and it really doesn’t make any sense.
Yup, that’s it.
John Moss says:
10 March, 2017 at 8:24 pm
Well that’s interesting.
Of course, this assumes that post independence we’d be happy to give up being ruled from London to be ruled by Brussels in a refernedum, right…?”
Wee question John, if the UK was being ruled by Brussels as you describe, then how come the UK is allowed to exit the EU without asking anyone’s permission in Europe? It is a complete distortion of the truth to say a country loses its sovereignty when joining the EU and is in any way “ruled” by Europe, because any member nation always has the means to withdraw from any and every agreement.
Yes, there are areas where sovereignty is “leant or shared”, but it is leant consensually, by agreement, but ultimately every Nation still retains the sovereign right to withdraw and disagree.
iScotland would not be ruled by Europe to any greater extent that which Scotland agreed to observe European rules.
I have used the parallel before of EU membership being like a golf club membership. The golf club doesn’t take over your life, ownership of your possessions or lay down rules for you to live by. Instead, the golf club has rules for members, such as not wearing spikes in the bar. You don’t surrender your national sovereignty by agreeing to the membership rules which exist for the smooth running of the club. You respect the rules because you agreed to do so as part of your membership. If you don’t like the rules, you are free to leave the club… just as the UK is doing.
Whole different ball game with Westminster. We in Scotland very much are ruled, because Westminster professes to hold command of our Scottish sovereignty and declares quite wrongly that parliament and Queen are sovereign in Scotland. It ignores the sovereign will of Scotland’s voice, and overrules our wishes routinely. To escape our subjugation by Westminster, we must first extradite our sovereignty and have its legitimacy recognised so that other Nations know and accept that Westminster is not our sovereign seat of government.
EU membership is consensual agreement we voluntarily sign up to. The Act of Union is a dysfunctional misappropriation of our sovereign freedom and capacity to say no.
Any other dominoes to fall…
WM declares Faslane and Coulport English overseas territories and send in Army guards to protect them in perpetuity.
(Apparently they are considering sending in army guards if the workers strike).
I do not understand people who would vote against the EU.
The EU has two distinct methods of legislation. There are EU regulations which are compulsory on all member states. These tend to be around individual and collective safety I. E. Food standards and labelling to ensure a secure food supply and also climatic improvement. The Scottish government actually implement them on a day to day basis.
The second type of legislation are Directives which are much more flexible . The member nation can pretty well do them within their own timescales and methodology. No nation is forced to instantly apply directives.
I believe there abounds much ignorance about how the EU works and people are relying too much on a very very biased media for facts.
Once again, late to the party but, as others have typed, the NI/Eire situation is the same as the E.Germany/W.Germany scenario.
The precedent has been set.
@joannie There are indeed plenty of reasons why the EU will welcome Scotland, it is by nature an expansionist organisation and its had a kicking because of Brexit, so it would probably be a welcome opportunity to embrace Scotland. Junkers White Paper is interesting about levels of integration
It won’t stop the Express from printing black as white as this will not suit their political agenda.
@ John Moss says:
“Of course, this assumes that post independence we’d be happy to give up being ruled from London to be ruled by Brussels in a refernedum, right…?”
They’re quite different things, John. Here’s Wee Ginger Dog on the topic . .
“The UK is a unitary state to which Scotland belongs as a possession. The EU is a union of sovereign states. The difference between the UK and the EU is the difference between being a bonded labourer and having an ownership stake in a company where you are a partner.”
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Wow! Who let the dogs out?
Do we have a mole/Deep Throat at Pacific Quay?
Ronnie Anderson, what have you been up to?
Heeheeheeheeheehee…….
So we know from 2014 that the Pensions LIES spouted by Better Together were confirmed as LIES by the Treasury.
We know that the OIL issue is NOT an issue.
link to qz.com
link to cnbc.com
Now we find out the even the BBC is broadcasting what WE have ALWAYS known about Scotland joining the E.U.
They will throw the idea about using £ in our face but WE will tell them THIS time to take their useless £ and shove it where the sun don’t shine.
NEXT? 😀
Ha ha Alberto Nardelli in a Buzzfeed article has written
“One senior EU official BuzzFeed News spoke to in Brussels described an independent Scotland’s chances of joining the EU as a “slam dunk”.
@Meg merrilees 9.10pm
“WM declares Faslane and Coulport English overseas territories and send in Army guards to protect them in perpetuity.”
A Scottish version of Guantanamo bay in effect?
With regard to bombing the airports, IIRC that happened in Slovenia and they’re in the EU … aren’t they ??
Meg Merrilees @ 9.10
One of my big concerns too Meg,and one of the things that I was disappointed to see wasn’t addressed in the interim Constution,last time.
EG….No Foreign Military Base permitted on Scottish soil…
Especially since Alex Salmond had very cleverly,made it clear that Scotland needs that Base for our own military!
By the way thanks for looking out for those of us answering that guy from England last night, thought he was a bit suspect but he stayed polite and bowed out before getting into a circular argument… Which I have no patience with anymore anyway….But thanks again for letting me know it wasn’t just my spider senses that were tingling.
Arbroath1320 says:
10 March, 2017 at 9:28 pm
‘They will throw the idea about using £ in our face but WE will tell them THIS time to take their useless £ and shove it where the sun don’t shine.’
With a future Scottish currency taking a different trajectory, I wonder if we’ll see Scots snapping up bargain holiday homes south of the border 😉
Meg merrilees says:
10 March, 2017 at 9:10 pm
Any other dominoes to fall…
WM declares Faslane and Coulport English overseas territories and send in Army guards to protect them in perpetuity.
(Apparently they are considering sending in army guards if the workers strike).
Not sure what exactly the Army will be able to do Meg the Strike that looks to be ON is for workers who work in roles involving radiation monitoring, weapons support, cleaning, logistics, maintenance and repairs.
As far as declaring Faslane/Coulport “overseas territories”
or whatever would put rUK in serious dispute with the U.N. I believe. Under the nuclear non proliferation treaties no country can store any nuclear device in another country. My ignorant understanding of this would mean that rUK would need to stock their nukes in rUK. Claiming Faslane/Coulport as rUK territories does not wash it with U.N. non proliferation treaties in my view.
“If NI were to reunite with Ireland would it need to reapply to join the the EU?”
No the irish prime minister (taoiseach) has already asked the EU for a United ireland provision clause
A ireland is a state with a “veto” in the brexit settlement It’s hard to see anyony else objecting – except of course the Brits. And they can’t because of the good Friday/Belfast Agreement
link to theguardian.com
As a Europhile, when I voted Yes I was in no doubt we would be welcomed in Europe.
While on holiday with my family in Spain in May 2014, my oldest son (who lives in Surrey) said to me, completely out of the blue, “You’ll not be in the EU.” To which I replied, “Fishing, renewable energy and oil.” He never mentioned it again for the rest of the week.
I still have no doubts we will be welcomed – Guy V (can’t spell the rest of his name) has said, “We can’t afford to lose Scotland.”
On EU membership.
If you support independence for Scotland, just visualise this for a moment: a month after losing a second IndyRef, respected analysts of polling data tell us that the reason we lost narrowly was that Yessers in 2014 voted No in Indyref2 because they did not want to be in the EU – i.e. they were not prepared to argue their case within an independent Scotland’s democratic system but were happy to use a referendum vote and a Tory government’s policy within the UK system, even though it embeds a democratic deficit for Scotland .
The EU, its role, influence and impact, has been misrepresented by much of the UK’s right wing media and politicians for decades. I am no supporter of the Labour Party but anyone thinking about making a voting decision about Scottish independence based on their current views of the EU should at least spend some time looking at the Labour MP Richard Corbett’s web site ( link to richardcorbett.org.uk ).
They should also reflect carefully on Wee Ginger Dug’s thoughtful blog on the essence of the case for independence at link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com.
Too late to influence votes on Brexit but not too late to get some perspective in advance of Indyref2 – and the strategy and tactics we need to achieve the goal of independence.
I have serious concerns about how the EU has dealt with Greece – the EU is far from perfect – but it is notable that one of the EU’s severest critics, the former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis, is an advocate for reform not for abolition or withdrawal (see this pan-EU movement for democratic reform at https://diem25.org – ever heard of it via UK media?).
Glamaig says:
10 March, 2017 at 9:35 pm
With a future Scottish currency taking a different trajectory, I wonder if we’ll see Scots snapping up bargain holiday homes south of the border ?
Only one thing to say to that idea Glamaig … Aint life a BITCH! 😀
Hi uno mas.
Re:Guantanamo Bay.
This quote is from the link below.
“In 1903, the United States and Cuba signed a lease granting the United States permission to use the land as a coaling and naval station. The lease satisfied the Platt Amendment; this amendment stated a naval base at “certain specific points agreed upon by the President of the United States” was needed to “enable the United States to maintain independence of Cuba.” The United States and Cuba signed a treaty in 1934, granting the United States a perpetual lease.”
link to en.wikipedia.org
I would think a referendum would be required in iScotland for the Sovereign people of Scotland to grant any lease to the Kingdom of England for continued use of the Clyde naval base. If there was a lease without Sovereign permission, methinks the government of iScotland would be treading dangerous waters.
Westminster tells Scotland when to take part in wars and whether or not we have nuclear weapons. Brussels does neither.
[…] Wings Over Scotland That’s that one sorted, then We joke, of course. The Spanish government has made this position abundantly plain […]
@stewartb 9:40 pm
The amount of ignorance of what the EU does is shocking. The UK media is directly responsible.
Wee Blue Book needs a section on this in the Revs readable style. Alyn Smiths Wee Bleu Book had all the information in it but it took me a couple of attempts to read it, it was so boring.
Colin Dunn,
“They’re quite different things, John. Here’s Wee Ginger Dog on the topic . .
“The UK is a unitary state to which Scotland belongs as a possession. The EU is a union of sovereign states. The difference between the UK and the EU is the difference between being a bonded labourer and having an ownership stake in a company where you are a partner.””
Despite a few loud mouthed Scots shouting from the rooftops that they are “sovereign”, Scotland has effectively been a colony of England for the last 310 years.
A Scottish dog is more “sovereign” than a Scot.
It can at least bite someone it doesn’t like.
Y’know, between catastrophic back to back conferences, poll results not quite agreeing with their public rhetoric and now this?
The yoonitariat don’t appear to be having the best of months.
Bless. 🙂
Indy Live seem to hide their fundraisers – only just seen it with less than a week to go
link to indiegogo.com
@ Meg Merrilees and others – overseas territories
I posted what I thought at the time was a bit of a paranoid post about all the MoD movement in Scotland (hub for all subs, Lossiemouth, Military ‘School’) and you got back to me mentioning the Sewel convention amongst other things.
I am a bit heartened by Arbroath 1320’s reply but have also been wondering about the large piece of Caithness which the MoD owns. I’m assuming that other countries ‘play’ here as well. What would happen to that arrangement – does anybody know?
Thanks stewartb at 9:40 for those links.
Hopefully this will kill the Unionist / MSM propaganda over EU veto and have to use the Euro punted by the Red Tories.
Meanwhile why did BBC / MSM not headline this report on Scotland’s productiveity?
The UK has a massive trade deficit but Scotland has a positive one and the only nation/region of the UK not in deficit.
Despite the downturn in the oil and gas sector, productivity in Scotland has grown four times faster than the UK average and our economy is now performing at the same rate.
Output per hour worked in Scotland – a measure of how much output the economy produces in each working hour – has grown 3.5% in 2015, compared to a UK figure of 0.9%.
Over the longer term, output per hour worked is now 9.4% higher in real terms than in 2007, prior to the recession. In 2015, UK productivity was only 0.1% higher than its 2007 level.
Scottish productivity has now effectively caught up with UK levels – increasing from 94.5% of the UK average output per hour in 2007 to 99.9% in 2015.
link to dailybusinessgroup.co.uk
Liz Rannoch no worries, it’s Scotlands land they cannot decide to keep a bit, we could lease a bit if we wanted , higly unlikely however as we will be a member of NATO , then obviously it could still be used for NATO purposes. I noticed when I was doing the nc500 before it was called the nc500 there is quite a few military installations designated NATO bases particuarly piers and jetties on the west coast.
@Thepnr says: 10 March, 2017 at 7:16 pm:
“It’possible that the EU bigwigs are already discussing keeping us in hence the apparently different stance from the old Spanish voices.”
Actually, Thepnr, That has been the Spanish official stance for a very long time. The only persistent claims reported as otherwise came from Barroso and he is Portuguese and not Spanish.
Furthermore, he was mostly misquoted by such as the BBC as he usually qualified his statements by saying, “This does not apply specifically to Scotland”, or something like that.
Then there is the fact that Barroso was not even speaking as an European Commissioner or spokesperson but always made it clear it was his personal opinion but even as an EC person he was no more than an EU Civil Servant with absolutely no EU decision making powers.
Just to back up my thoughts about nukes being stored in an independent Scotland Liz here’s a link to the treaty on the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons.
I think Articles I and II are the important ones that cover rUK stocking up their WMD’s in an independent Scotland.
link to un.org
As an independent nation we will have many, many friends who will support established International Law.
The North Sea border will be horizontal as per agreed rules, the territorial waters and coast will be recognised. The Empire gun boat tactics would not be tolerated by the UN.
However some short term arrangement could be made for the transfer of the Trident / Astute Class subs. I could live with a 5 year “lease” until a new port was found.
Knowing that Trident will be removed never to return would make any short term accommodation acceptable ( providing they pay and don’t piss us off on other areas)
@ Cadogan Enright 10.00pm
Another fundraiser hiding away:
link to crowdfunder.co.uk
They MUST get their £30,000 with 37 days left. Anybody going on this? Is this to do with Glasgow CC demanding silly numbers of stewards?
Hi Cadogan Enright.
Repeating this from the “Levelling The Field” page.
I linked to that fundraiser in a response to “Rock” on the 8th.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Rock wants to bite somebody. Man the barricades in George Sq and declare UDI. Is that it? Should last about 2 minutes.
I get the feeling you want a popular uprising Rock. Symbolism.
Ain’t gonna happen bud.
On the LibDem and Slab Conferences and the utterances of Rennie and Dugdale. They don’t really know why they are arguing for, any serious political questioning would expose them.
It is only the UK Unionist bubble that allows them to go on making public statements. If some of the German, French or US news agencies were to have them in a news conference they would be ridiculed.
Tomorrow’s “National” front page;
Re my previous comment.
Of course, “Rock” didn’t deign to reply, probably because she is so fixated on destroying The National, that other questions, looking for answers, are beyond her capabilities.
The “National” twitter pages:
link to twitter.com
@Neil Cook says: 10 March, 2017 at 7:18 pm:
“Maybe the Beeb actually interviewed a real Spanish politician and not one spouting the establishment agenda… “
The Spanish official line has been exactly as quoted here for as long as I can recall. By that I mean that real Spanish government spokesperson’s have claimed that Spain’s quarrel with their autonomous regions is quite different from that of the United Kingdom. They have often stated they will not bar Scottish membership.
First note that Spain is not a federation nor is it a union. Spain is a highly decentralized unitary state.
Spain’s legal sovereignty is owned by the nation as a whole which represents the central institutions of the national government.
Thus the national government has asymmetrically devolved power to the autonomous communities, who in turn, exercise their own right to self-government within the limits of the legal national constitution and their legal autonomous statutes.
i.e. the regions of Spain are autonomous already.
You have been soaking up the Yoon propaganda for far too long. Quite simply the story according to the UK broadcasters and dead tree press has been a pack of sheer lies.
welcome as it is, these statements are not official eu positions
i expect the eu to officially to declare, once article 50 is enacted
1. NI, Scotland, Wales and England, while united as the UK, will not get special treatment in these negotiations. the UK arrangement will apply to all nation states of the UK
this is sad, but inevitable, and if the troubles in NI kick off again, the EU will get blamed. they are damned if they do and damned i they dont
2. What I hope for is that the EU might also officialy announce their position regarding an indy scotland and a NI united with the ROI.
Here lies the problem, put yourselves into the shoes of the eu leaders and imagine for a moment what the presidents of france, spain, holland, germany or italy would say if the eu made similar comments or commitments to an indy scotland for say, bavaria, lombardy, freisland, britanny corsica, catalunia or the basques?
i have no doubt the eu would like to stick one on treeza, but they also have their priorities, we will know the answer in a few weeks just how far they are willing to stick their necks out or scotland
@Clydebuilt says: 10 March, 2017 at 7:24 pm:
“Are the Spanish playing Hardball with Westminister……. “we’ll let the Scots in if you don’t give us access to Scottish waters “.?”
No! The Spanish government spokespersons have been saying the same thing for many years. Spain will not oppose Scottish Membership.
You should never believe the Yoon Propaganda. I’ve been telling Wings for years that the Spanish official line was neither that as stated by the Yoon propaganda and making the point that Barroso was NOT an EU spokesperson and was very careful to say it was his own views he was stating. Not only that but Barroso is Portuguese – not Spanish.
Scotland
A
nation
Again
The future
Awaits
A lot of speculation now that May will trigger A50 next week.
Final debate in the House on Tuesday, and around 20 Tory rebels discussing this weekend, on whether they support the Lord’s clause on EU nationals, because, of course, May wants them as bargaining chips.
Just read a piece in Irish Times, saying its time to start explaining Brexit economic realities to NI, and talk about reunification. Given the changes in political make-up, view was it might not be as difficult as some think.
Apparently an unnamed minister in May’s government advised the FT. A referendum is on its way. There must be agreements behind the scenes we are not privy to.
I suspect Sturgeon will spell it out on Friday or Saturday.
And remember how Alyn Smith MEP, was given a standing ovation in the European Parliament when he said “Scotland has not abandoned Europe. Don’t abandon Scotland”
He is on the Foreign Relations Committee and is a man of influence and I am sure that behind the scenes, Scotland’s cause is getting more and more support.
When Article 50 is triggered watch out for a storm of support from Europe.
Bob Mack,
“Rock wants to bite somebody.”
The Wee Ginger Dug has bitten a few loud mouthed “sovereign” Scots:
“Here’s Wee Ginger Dog on the topic . .
“The UK is a unitary state to which Scotland belongs as a possession. The EU is a union of sovereign states. The difference between the UK and the EU is the difference between being a bonded labourer and having an ownership stake in a company where you are a partner.””
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Just a wee heads up folks.
Let the fun begin. 😀
link to archive.is
From what I have gathered there is a train of thought that she would not want to trigger A50 the following week because 25th March is the 60th anniversary of the signing of the Treaty of Rome. I would suggest that two or three days prior to 25th would also be scratched out due to the preamble and lead in to the celebrations. This would leave either Monday 20th March or 14th to 18th March, the week leading up to SNP conference.
In my view with my “amazing” deductions here I’d say Mayhem is screwed no matter when she sends her A50 letter to Brussels. 😀
Brexit: The EU will not cease to trade because we in the UK are important to them.
Scotland’s biggest trading partner is he rUK. The EU is only a quarter etc etc.
Compare and contrast or just bloodywell think that one through!
@ Lenny Hartley
Arbroath 1320
Clootie
Thanks for the posts think I’ll sleep better the night!
Clootie – Aye that 6000 sq ml is a pet hate of mine too.
Starting to feel all .. schwoogly .. inside. Best I can describe it! Off to ma pit wi’ a smile on ma face. Thanks for cheering me up – all wingers.
“Rock” – what was the point of your comment at 10.53pm?
You added nothing to what had been typed previously but felt the need to repeat it.
Is it your time of the month?
It irritates me no end that they (the meeja) keep quacking on about “rejoining” and “re-entering” the EU, and national politicians are no better. If Scotland becomes independent before the UK Brexits, then it remains in the EU, and you can’t come back in if you haven’t gone out first.
The devil will be in the all the details that have to be amended as a consequence of the rUK leaving, but the principle is crystal clear.
@Liz Rannoch
An Indy defence paper mentioned on Wings before covers that pretty well on page 32 of this:
link to scottishglobalforum.net
Continuing such facilities for NATO members gives NATO a strong incentive for us to be members, and also provides a part of our contribution to NATO. Any “extraordinary” use by the rUK outside NATO exercises would be negotiable though, perhaps in return for training facilities.
As for Faslane and Coulport, 10 years would probably be more like it, but that would need something of equal value back from the rUK in return – like contining building of the T26 on the Clyde, and or plus money.
@BDTT –
It’s great to see ‘Rock’ cracking jokes!
And no wonder – as a genuine indy-supporter, s/he sees the 50/50 poll in conjunction with an alleged slump in The National readership.
Why wouldn’t s/he be happy?!
Arbroath 1320 @ 22.18
Thanks for post that link, Arbroath 1320 I hope it does turn out that the neuks can’t stay,but I really don’t think so.
If Faselane is declared UK Territory as a get around the rules situation.
The argument would be “I think” that in the interests of not leaving the rUk undefended,or at least deprived of it’s main mode of defence.
Also to not leave a gap in NATO’s defences.
The non poliferation treaty would need to be tweaked to allow for the Territory change on the island.
The only way around this that I can see is to have the area declared UK Territory….Then good luck getting them out….
It’s my understanding (and willing to be corrected)that the powers that be already altered the rules for Trident, as Coleport doesn’t comply with the required distance from Faselane.
It was fine for Polaris but Maggie wanted the more powerful Trident,and because the facility already existed,an exception was made.
If that’s true then it is no impossible that Britain’s waving the rules again.
Clootie @ 10.20
Everything I care about is in the blast zone of those things,so for me not 5min never mind 5yrs.
I understand the Subs need a place…
But not the warheads..
Put them on a ship (willing to wait for decent weather,tis Scotland after all) and get them gone to wherever Westminster wants to keep them as soon after a yes vote as possible.
We should make it so our Constution won’t allow WMDs.
Fireproofjim,
“When Article 50 is triggered watch out for a storm of support from Europe.”
I can predict with 100% confidence that Scotland will be ignored by both the UK and the EU.
If we want to be heard, we should announce an independence referendum the day Article 50 is announced.
I am having a momentary flush of compassion for the Liberals. I have been to a couple of work conferences where they have used those bronze/red velvet chairs. They look like they should be comfortable but were in fact designed by the Marquis de Sade.
Moment has passed 🙂
Ian Brotherhood,
“@BDTT –
It’s great to see ‘Rock’ cracking jokes!
And no wonder – as a genuine indy-supporter, s/he sees the 50/50 poll in conjunction with an alleged slump in The National readership.
Why wouldn’t s/he be happy?!”
Ian Brotherhood,
11 February, 2017 at 12:59 am
“Rock and his supporters are – successfully – choking the life out of creative, informative discourse on this site.
No more appealing to Rev, or anyone else – I’m out.”
Are you back “in”?
Just to start an argument with me?
@Rock –
‘I can predict with 100% confidence that Scotland will be ignored by both the UK and the EU.’
No-one on this planet can predict anything about the consequences of ‘Brexit’.
That’s why I can state, with 100% confidence, that you’re a fekking eejit.
Edward Freeman,
“If Scotland becomes independent before the UK Brexits, then it remains in the EU, and you can’t come back in if you haven’t gone out first.”
How will Scotland become independent before the UK Brexits if the independence referendum is not held until autumn 2018?
As I have said before:
“The longer Scotland remains in the UK after Brexit, the more difficult it will become, because the laws that matter are made at Westminster.
All EU laws would be quickly struck off by Westminster after Brexit.
Scotland can only get the best deals possible from both the EU and the UK if it becomes independent before Brexit happened.”
Brian Doonthetoon,
“Is it your time of the month?”
Shows the depths to which the likes of you sink to.
Rock says:
“How will Scotland become independent before the UK Brexits if the independence referendum is not held until autumn 2018?”
Article 50 being triggered merely starts a 2 year process of exit talks and there is a reasonable chance of an extension being required.
So UK will BREXIT on 1st April 2019 at the earliest. Maybe the whole thing will turn out to be an April fool.
Pons’ words seem clear, but they’re not the only words here. Catalonia is a hot potato just now.
On 9.3.2017 (yesterday) “Rajoy se compromete ante May a oponerse a una Escocia dentro de la UE y fuera del Reino Unido.” In other words, he is quoted as promising May he will oppose a Scotland within the EU and outside the UK.
However, trouble looms for Catalonia (and sorry, Robert, Spain’s regions are actually only paper autonomies – too long to discuss).
With referendum plans continuing in CAT, Rajoy is threatening to close down parts of the Catalan parliament and if this doesn’t stop the indie movement, has asked the EU constitutional Venice Commission for a report on plans to apply a State of Exception in the region, appropriate for major health emergencies, mass contamination or catastrophe, threat to democratic institutions, breakdown of public order, insurrection or act of force against the sovereignty of Spain, its terrotorial integrity or constitutional order (whew). Don’t forget the current EU is conservative dominated.
link to ara.cat
At present the territorial conflict is being dealt with in the courts and no political solution or negotiation has been offered nor will it be offered. Scorched earth.
I just inform people of the uneasy situation here while knowing that one response may be “well if they break the law what do they expect”. But solidarity, folks, you know the ditty that ends “and then they came for you” …
The EU must give Scotland a way better offer of your out with the UK and that’s it. Start your application.
They may not wish to do so too early on in any brexit negotiations taking place. Who knows? The process is thus far uncharted and it’s anyone’s guess how it will play out at this point in time. I hope we get enough indication to help our cause anyway.
If Faslane is declared UK Territory as a get around the rules situation.
The argument would be “I think” that in the interests of not leaving the rUk undefended,or at least deprived of it’s main mode of defence.
Also to not leave a gap in NATO’s defences.
In my view Liz rUK might be permitted to use that excuse for a short period of time of say around 10 years to allow rUK to find a suitable new site. I am not sure they would be permitted to hold Faslane/Coulport for an unlimited period of time. Remember back in 2014 during the independence referendum Faslane was highlighted as H.Q. for the future Scottish Defence Force.
Unless a full equipment set up could be acquired from rUK on day one independence, which will NEVER happen, then the only alternative to build up equipment levels is over time which would coincide nicely with a 10 year limit to rUK retaining the services of Faslane/Coulport.
During the 10 year “gap” I’d think the SDF would be working alongside rUK personnel to build/reconfigure Faslane into what THEY want a post independence SDF HQ to look like.
In my view, even if rUK does lay “claim” to Faslane/Coulport after independence as “UK Territory” I am certain they would have to make some sort of financial payment to the Scottish government for the “privilege”. This is where the Scottish Government can get right down and “dirty” with rUK to ensure they LEAVE. The annual charges for Faslane/Coulport could/should be made so outrageous, say £10 Billion per site per year, that rUK would be only too happy to leave. 😀
@yesindyref2 says: 10 March, 2017 at 7:31 pm:
” … I think formally Scotland would clearly have to apply to join the EU, but effectively in all but the Treaties themselves, from still inside.”
One teeny-weeny problem with that argument, yesindyref2.
To apply to join the EU you must first be outside the EU to begin with.
Now facts are facts and it is a fact that the United Kingdom is indeed legally exactly what its name describes it as. A united kingdom called, “The United Kingdom”.
As such the, “Member State”, of the EU is a bipartite union of only the two signatory kingdoms that united to form, “The Union”, and they are not countries but kingdoms and are legally equally sovereign. i.e. The UK Government really has no legislation or legal claims of sovereignty over Scottish legal jurisdiction.
The EU has no laws, rules or legal mechanisms to expel a Member State nor has it any such laws, rules or mechanisms to take away any EU citizens citizenship and Scotland and the Scots have been respectively an EU country and EU citizens since as long as there has been an EU. It you like, we are founder members.
In fact the whole ethos of the EU is to unite and safeguard the member states & the equality of all EU citizens. To expel either would require they instigate the legal ways to do otherwise and if they did they would destroy the whole raison d’être of the European Union.
In any case it is quite a task to change EU laws as every member state has to agree and they all have a veto.(That’s equality for you).
Now consider this – The EU has already shown that it is not prepared to break EU rules to suit the UK Government.
The law is that the only way out of the EU is by formally submitting a written Article 50 request. There will be no action taken until that request has been made. The same thing applies to individual citizens and as Scotland is an equally sovereign partner in the UK then the EU must give equal rights to both Kingdoms.
Now that brings in an immediate anomaly. N.I. is NOT a partner kingdom in the UK but was an integral, annexed, part of the Kingdom of England long before there was a UK. We cannot consider the N.I. case as being like that of the Kingdom of Scotland.
However, if the EU rules that the UK as the member state is composed of two equally sovereign kingdoms then there is no need for the EU to go to the trouble of changing EU laws and thus both kingdoms of the union have equal rights to take the UK’s place as the existing Member State.
However, because that member state has bisected itself, the conditions of membership would need to be re-negotiated and the Kingdom of England might find itself with a wee bit of a problem.
There is no legally elected parliament of either the Kingdom or the country of England and if, “The Union”, has ended then the UK Parliament has also ended and thus has nothing to barging with.
To put that another way – if the UK has already split up after an independence referendum then how can the UK submit an Article 50 request the UK should leave? For that matter how can a parliament of the UK request to leave the EU when no UK parliament still exists?
Mind you that does have certain advantages for the Kingdom of England. It cannot be asked to pay back those billions of pounds that the EU rules say a member state requesting to leave is due to pay back because Westminster is no longer the United Kingdom Parliament.
Nothing in the Graun at all Scotland politics, not even SFibDem conference. How things change in the good olde UK zone.
From,
link to theguardian.com
Scottish independence: Spain blocks Alex Salmond’s hopes for EU transition
No automatic welcome for independent Scotland, says Mariano Rajoy, who expects UK to take same stance on Catalonia
via
link to theguardian.com
Scottish independence
Independent Scotland would be ejected from EU, says Spanish prime minister
to,
link to theguardian.com
The Unionist media has shifted tack from “Project Fear”, which would be hard to spin this time round, to “Project Lull Us into a False Sense of Security”, so that we take the foot off the pedal thinking it’s inevitable, and then they bring out the heavy cannon and mount a surprise attack just before the vote.
It’s a tried and tested method.
Beware.
Anent our figures as a trading nation; the Unionist keep talking about the £15 billion deficit in the GERS, especially that dog food salesman fella.
I here the usual rebuff to this which is that the deficit is a comment on the poor economic management of Westminster, to which I agree. But here’s a thing:
1)We are net exporters
2)Our GDP per head tops the UK GDP
3)We pay more in tax per head than the other nations of the UK.
So I ask myself the question, how come we have such a big deficit? We are not uniquely expensive or wasteful in the way we organize ourselves.
Of course the answer is in the way that Westminster re-charges us for services rendered and in the way that the debt is divided up. We need to up our game in demolishing what is a spurious attempt at telling us we are too wee, too poor and too stupid.
Spain would never cut off their nose to spite their face, their fishing industry takes something like 40% of all fish out of Scottish waters, waters tehy need access to to keep their love of fish on the plate, but Fergus Ewing has already came out in January stating Scotland would not join the CFP, for that to happen, Scotland would have to join the EFTA rather than full membership.
Agree with an earlier poster..
If we become independent before a completed brexit, we surely would still be in the EU ??
It would then follow that,going by uk logic, the EU and not the Uk, would be throwing us out, then letting us back in….!!
Ludicrous .
As for nukes on the Clye and over seas territories, form what I read in Articles one and two of the nuclear Non Prol agreement is that as long as thsoe warheads came under Scottish ownership from England then they could technically keep a hold of them in an overseas territory, both articles only state that “ownership” isnt allowed to change hands,and if Westminster took control of Faslane and Coulport, then those WMOs wouldnt have changed ownership, we need to do a Norway and an Australia and ban them from our EEZ
“Is it your time of the month?”
It’s always that time of the month to point out the use of misogynistic insult.
Col @ 11.31
I actually think that the subject of Scotland will be the issue that will be seen to have caused the breakdown of the Brexit talks.
Both sides can’t negotiate asset’s and resources that don’t or won’t belong to them.
As Unionists are fond of telling us…We are no in the EU,the membership is for the UK.
Soooo the EU have no say in Scotland’s resources.
But,if Scotland’s potentially going to decide to exit it’s UK Treaty obligations then Westminster’s team can’t bargain with our resources either, because at the point of Brexit Scotland will have her resources back.
These two cannot reach any deal that includes Scotland,that as far as I can see, would last long enough to let England Brexit.
IMHO and in a very round about way… That’s where the real Scottish veto lie’s.
And wi a tin hat oan… Mibbi why May is sayin she will just walk, because if we are all right about Scotland’s wealth.
Then the best possible Brexit deal for their Precious Union is to leave WITH Scotland,and not have to put Brexit on hold to wait for us to vote….Be at our mercy sort of thing.
Then have to negotiate with only the assets of England,Wales & N. Ireland.
@ Swami Backverandah
Hear, hear!
(I was very disapppointed by the post you quote.)
Spain is absolutely playing hardball with Westminster and the prize is Gibraltar. If Theresa May’s UK Government cedes sovereignty over Gibraltar to Spain be prepared to see Spain seek to thwart Scotland’s EU ambitions. Conversely if Theresa May’s UK Government won’t play ball over Gibraltar watch them use Scotland to screw the UK. Either way the UK won’t come out well.
@Marga
That quote appears to have been made on 13th October 2016 – a lot has changed since then.
link to elespanol.com
The BBC web pages for Scotland have a headline:
SNP Form New Council Administration
About the party taking over from Labour at Clackmannanshire Council.
What happened to the BBC’s longstanding policy of describing such a thing as ‘SNP seize power’ or ‘SNP seize control’ or ‘SNP in council coup’?
What with BBC Scotland reporting the Pons remarks could it be that there are some staff at Pacific Quay who are starting to hedge their bets?
@Marga
I meant the quote in a newspaper about what Rajoy is supposed to have said to May when she visited last October. It might have been reported again yesterday, but it’s based on an old report, and a meeting 5 months ago.
Papers do this all the time, dragging up old news.
@Liz G
I doubt it would be legal for the rUK to hold on to land in a foreign country. So it could only be done with negotiation and agreement. Salmond would have agreed, no idea if Sturgeon would. Which means of course they don’t either, which means of course she can get more for the agreement than Salmond could. He was a pussy-cat, she’s a tiger!
@crazycat
Without getting into the discussion of the actual topics of posters – diverse viewpoints always welcome – it’s useful for many (well me anyway, can’t speak for others), to be aware of what actually constitutes misogyny, or sexism, or racism and so on.
So I post, also in the hope that, if I have construed wrongly, it can be pointed out.
Stu’s had discussions previously on what constitutes these types of exchanges. Misogyny can be one of the most difficult to identify, and I (or others) can be so used to using it as insult in a way we think is acceptable, that we don’t notice it.
Hi Rock at 11:23 pm.
You quoted and typed,
“Brian Doonthetoon,
“Is it your time of the month?”
Shows the depths to which the likes of you sink to.”
What depths? YOU have never divulged your gender so why, I assume, take it as an insult that I allude to you being feminine?
Is it sinking to depths to assume you are of the female gender? Have you something against women that you see being assumed to be of that gender as some sort of an insult to your perception of yourself?
Your apparent misogyny is a lot more important, in the scheme of things, than any perceived failings in The National’s support for independence.
Perhaps you could explain to us lesser mortals why referring to you as female upsets you so much?
OT
From the Herald: “ CASH-STRAPPED councils face soaring wages bills and higher debt payments as the ‘the spectre of Brexit’ hangs over Scots local government, a leading think tank has warned.
Calling for an urgent debate on the role of councils, the Fraser of Allander Institute said the UK’s exit from the EU was creating a whole new raft burdens for local authorities to deal cope with, coming on the back of years of cuts and mounting demands on frontline services.
… Commissioned by the Scottish Local Government Partnership (SLGP), which represents Glasgow, Renfrewshire, Lanarkshire and Aberdeen councils”
Aren’t they all Labour controlled?
@Robert Peffers “To apply to join the EU you must first be outside the EU to begin with.”
Where in the Treaties does it say that?
Article 49: “Any European State which respects the values referred to in Article 2 and is committed to promoting them may apply to become a member of the Union. . . . ”
Scotland would ba a European State.
Or Article 48 (Salmond’s preferred route): “1. The Treaties may be amended in accordance with an ordinary revision procedure. They may also be amended in accordance with simplified revision procedures.
2. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the Treaties. These proposals may, inter alia, serve either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties. These proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall be notified.”
It’s RealPolitik unless specifically excluded in the Treaties when it’s a matter of EU Law, and so it’s up to the EU-27 to do, basically, whatever they like.
@ Brian
Do you really, seriously, not know that it’s saying “is it your time of the month?” that is the problem, not the gender assumption?
Apologies if this has been previously posted…
Conservative Party ‘cheated’ election laws to win seats in General Election, whistleblowers claim
link to archive.is
Sorry folks, I seem to have missed a good discussion on Faslane/Coulport.
Reassured by some of the points raised tonight, thank you.
Is there anyway it could be considered a ‘Royal Peculiar’ issue since Bessie owns the foreshore of the whole country…
Could she put up a fence to protect her property, which would have to be guarded by extra military personnel?
Mind you, I’m forgetting, what will Argyll and Bute use for their tourist brochure if Trident is moved from Faslane?
I love Spain.
I love Catalonia.
I love Scotland.
X.
We are the pioneer’s of this planet.
Have an amazing weekend Scotland, CC coming up later on ra day..
Listening to the wind of change.. viva!
Mind you, I’m forgetting, what will Argyll and Bute use for their tourist brochure if Trident is moved from Faslane?
To be honest Meg I have every confidence in Argyll and Bute finding a suitable replacement. I have to say I will miss the opportunity to drive one of those nuke sub thingy’s. 😀
Aussi ~
J’adore le Europe.
X.
SO Saturday..’Mon our first XV!
Meg Merillees @ 12.50
Have heard of the Royals “being” peculiar, but haven’t heard of “A” Royal Peculiar!!
Anyhoo I think in Scotland she disnay actually own the land, she’s a sort of Caretaker/groundskeeper.
@Meg merrilees
It seems to be passing to control by the Scottish Government via the Scotland Act 2016, but even in the rUK isn’t owned by the Queen.
link to thecrownestate.co.uk
So she couldn’t do a thing!
One more about Crown Estate:
link to gov.scot
“The Scottish Government intends that communities will benefit once the Crown Estate has been devolved to Scotland and has already committed to providing the net revenue from marine activities out to 12-nautical miles to coastal and island communities.”
But the MOD do own land, this would transfer to ownership of the Scottish Government, who could then lease it back out I guess. But under their control – Scotland is Scotland, the border stops at Berwick / Gretna, and out to sea along the maritime boundaries. Dat’s the LAW!
Hi crazycat.
I think you may have missed what I was up to. Now that I have admitted it, it’s blown.
Apologies if you were offended.
So I will not respond to “Rock”, in any shape or form, in future.
Regarding the above..
Sorted 🙂
’17.
That’s the one.
@ Brian
Fair enough. I’ll bear that in mind for next time.
GOOD- we can stand that domino back up then!.
Liz ‘a Royal Peculiar’ is basically a get out clause – a bit like the Royal Prerogative in parliament- that gives the monarch jurisdiction over something, usually a church but can be other buildings and things e.g. The Royal Albert Hall is one because it is part of the memorial to Prince Albert built by Victoria and that can affect some H&S legislation – I think?
Felt a bit guilty about the thumbs down on Mr. WM Junk yesterday, but I notice he hasn’t come back!
Liz g has it right. The foreshore is part of what is known as “the regalia ” – controlled but not beneficially owned by the Crown.
SCOTLAND: Cheers.
@Yesindyref2
That SLGP are the breakaway from Cosla. Cosla being the only group the SG can legally speak to on group business.
They were told that, went ahead, and commissioned that report, which is couched in caveats, and Allander are not calling for anything.
Its Glasgow going through desperate shinanigans and wasting money, again.
@Valerie
Yes, the thing is though that the report says “Brexit Bad”, which does no harm to the cause of Independence, and it’s a report commissioned by Labour controlled councils.
Which should give the Labour party cause to stop and think about its stance on Independence and staying in the EU 🙂
It might make the council elections even more interesting.
Theresa May minus 20 days to go MAX.
Freedom awaits ye Scotland..
Let’s make some new friends.
Anybuddy gotta digital A50 countdown clock for 31/03/17..?
I was under the firm impression that right after the Brexit referendum, there was discussion of a holding Pen status for Scotland.
I have seen this extended to all manner of interpretations, from EFTA to special arrangements etc. However I could the distinct impression the holding Pen status was quite narrow, and closely defined.
Before any such status could be agreed, there would be a presumption that Scotland would be in the process of realising its own constructional sovereignty. The holding Pen idea was to reserve a full membership place for Scotland, but afford us a transitional period of time to formalise our independence and extract ourselves from the Union, while also adjusting our representation in the European Parliament to reflect our new independent status. Time to pack our bags and say our goodbyes, but not much more.
Anything from a UDI to a successful referendum result might auger in such a transitional status, but anything less than these commitments, anything stopping short of independence, and holding Pen status is not going to happen.
Meg Merrilees @ 1.25
RE. Mr Junk,felt a bit bad myself at first for doubting him.
But no-one was nasty to him and his enquires were answered.
Which is about all he can expect,since it really has nothing to do with him,and he was “apparently” only being curious.
Felt less bad when after offering my opinion to him,he side steped my questions and jumped to another point that he felt needed clarification.
That was just rude.
So what ever his motive for inserting himself into Scotland’s business, I don’t think we should feel too bad because while he stayed polite,he wasn’t very respectful to the people who engaged with him!
Cactus says:
11 March, 2017 at 1:53 am
Theresa May minus 20 days to go MAX.
Freedom awaits ye Scotland..
Let’s make some new friends.
Anybuddy gotta digital A50 countdown clock for 31/03/17..?
Not convinced you’ll need a 20 day countdown clock Cactus. There are strong rumours floating arpound Westminster and media that Tuesday could be “extremely” interesting. 😉
link to news.sky.com
So it looks like all we need folks is a four day countdown clock! The best bit THREE days later it’s the SNP conference! 😀
As I mentioned earlier Mayhem has boxed herself into a corner so tight she has no idea whether she is coming or going now and the clock ticking just jumped up a couple of levels to DEAFENING level. 😀
@Robert Peffers
That was an incomplete answer, I split it in two.
The second part is indeed along your bipartite lines, and the Crawford & Boyle paper shows how important the issue is to the rUK Government. And thereby exposes it’s weakness, and the weakness of its negotiating hand with Scotland. It was the very first paper it commissioned and published! Some legal bods think unwisely – it shows its arguments prior to any potential court case, and allows time for preparation of a solid rebuttal.
There are of course the 3 different ways of Scotland becoming Independent, in International eyes – posted for those who haven’t followed this before.
1). Secession. Scotland leaves the UK. Scotland goes away with nothing, no treaties, no assets to speak of except our fixed assets like buildings. Scotland can take a share of debt if we want. The UK is still the UK, just without Scotland.
2). Separation. The rUK (whatever it calls itself) and Scotland split the assets and debt according to agreed formula, both inherit the treaties and just have to confirm them. In the case of the EU Scotland would just say “yes, we’re staying in”.
3). Dissolution. The UK exists no more, treaties would have to be renegotiated (both sides reaffirming), debts and assets – probably split same as for separation. But it’s not a good move for either country, and there’s even the possibility it wouldn’t be recognised internationally.
In all cases there would be safeguards so that creditors outside the UK would be taken care of. And this might well include the EU, and in all cases Scotland gets our territory, our territorial waters, and our EEZ – unless for some odd reason we agree to sign it away (not over my dead body). But a 10 year lease over Faslane and Coulport – with agreed access via the Clyde and our territorial waters, fair enough.
From the rUKpoint of view, it wants to be the Continuing state which it only is if Scotland secedes. But that has problems for Scotland, we have no treaties, we have no memberships.
My feeling is that the actual mechanism would be some sort of compromise where Scotland effectively secedes to allw the rUK to have continuing status but also separates – if both sides agree then internationally there’s likely to be acceptance.
Over the top of all that of course is RealPolitiks which can basically do whatever it wants.
@Liz g
Who knows, there were a few wee tells, but that could just have been because he gets his “information” from the quite ignorant London-based media – or even the Scottish. McWhirter for instance keeps on going on about “after Brexit”, when what he should be saying is “after negotiations are complete”. Clearly he doesn’t read my comments – the first one a couple of times – beneath his articles.
Sensible questions though, I think, should always be treated with sensible answers. Benefit of the doubt thing.
But the ignorance outside Scotland of the true postion is very genuine. People aren’t that interested so tend to believe what they hear on TV or read in the papers.
Breeks @ 01:55,
You could be right about the options for “holding pen” status. It’s of course impossible to know for sure, since the EU has stayed diplomatically schtum and we are not privy to what’s being contingency-planned within their ranks.
However we should keep in mind that, as other posters have already mentioned, the EU often makes up its rules as it goes along, to fit new circumstances.
So I could see the actual declaration of an independence referendum as sufficient grounds for activating “holding pen” status, since to withhold that possibility could (at a stretch) be argued as an interference in the process! But while the EU are not likely to go out on a limb for us before indy is achieved, all the signs are that in the meantime they are going to be very willing to stretch.
As things stand, however, such a declaration will require the agreement of UKGov, which it will presumably therefore attempt to stall as much as possible, or even try to “poison” as in 1979.
Another possibility I could just about see is the EU declaring a willingnesss to allow Scotland a presence pro tem on the UK side during the negotiations. If for no other reason than to invide Mayhem’s likely refusal, thereby giving us one more little nudge forward to indy.
All pure speculation on my part, I must admit, but not entirely impossible either. We shall soon see!
Err, “invite” not “invide”. Duh. (It’s getting late.)
Roll on Monday, roll on Tuesday.
Cheers to ye Arbroath1320, muchos loveos sis.
X.
Yesindyref2 @ 2.14
What I thought was a bit strange,was when he said he just stumbled upon the conversation,which was about oil.
This apparently prompted him to ask about Brexit… Bizzare
Anyhoo,as you say benift of the doubt is probably the best approach,but only for a wee while.
Things are getting to serious now to piss about…That was a really interesting discussion about the oil.
But it was one you (well me actually) really needed to concentrate on to take in,so he was a bit distracting.
Anyhoo I was glad Meg said something,cause sometimes ye doubt yerself and don’t want to hurt someone unnecessarily.
Liz g @ 02:29,
What a bunch of vile seps we are to still be concerned that we treated a random interloper quite properly! (And to our credit too, if I may say so.)
Worth remembering also that other (“silent”) readers may get some benefit even if the OP him/herself is insincere or merely slightly eccentric.
Robert J Sutherland @ 2.40
Drat.. I keep forgetting we are ment to be vile separatists.
You would think that the media would start pointing out that we canny get this vile-ness thing right.
LOL.
Your probably right Robert there is always the chance that someone else reading will pick up a point or two.
@Liz g + @Robert J. Sutherland
I just presume that the whole of Wings is spidered by a private search engine, and then run through a text analyser, and put into a relational database for queries. There’s many of the first, one written by an Indy supporter back in the early naughties or before for instance, the second has been around since the 70s if not before, I’ve built and used them way back, the third is of course just a query language like SQL. It’s how, for instance, some posters might be able to easily find what someone said 3 months ago – google is a bit painful for that and takes time.
Just a thought.
Ah well, beddy nights, tiring day ahead watching rugby on TV. I should be working oh well nevermind.
Myth busted.
Sorry to be a wet blanket,
but they have done this time and again,
they throw us a bone to shut us up then its back to relentless negativity x2
this report should be seen as a signal they’re about to come out with a lot more crap which will eclipse a good news story!
Willie Rennie is going to make “the emotional” case for the Union today. Perhaps he’s hired Cambridge Analytìca to target us all with tailored ads. They believe that voters use emotions as a guide.
Expect the media to push endless nostalgia. Back to the 30s. Britain stands alone. We’ll Meet Again on an endless loop, etc etc
Rennie to make ’emotional’ case for United Kingdom – link to bbc.co.uk
Neither the UK or the EU can afford to loose Scotland.
Get ready for the biggest tug of war in political history.
The EU will dangle a big juicy carrot (or several carrots), whilst the BrexitNats will threaten us with a dirty stick full of rusty nails. Why? Be cause it’s all they have. Not a time for the faint-hearted. 🙂
I believe the BBC and Kezia, and Wullie, and Ruth, and George I’ve trousered 650,000 of the pounds you Sweaties can’t keep Osborne, and Our Man in Hong Kong Danny Alexander, and his alter ego Douglas Friend of Bono Alexander, and The Clunking Fist Broon, and Lord Darling of Flipping, and Lord Reid of Parkheid, and Lord Greyskirt McConnell, and Jim the Eggman Murphy, and Johann Something for Nothing Lamont, and Margaret We Need To Have a Conversation Curran, and Ian Bayonet of the Scots Davidson, and Alistair Pants On Fire Carmichael of Portsmouth, and Ed Balls-Up, and Nick the Clegg, and Ed the Millstone, and David Hogshead Cameron, and Lizard Lips Mundell the Magificent, and Lord Robertson of the Planet Zircon, and, from the Goebbels Suite at Pacific Quay, Fraser, Robertson, Brewer, and Campbell, England’s Back Four in their away team, defending the Motherland’s Last Colony, and the Dead Tree Scrollers of the Fourth Estate Fifth Column.
Scotland is too wee too poor, and too stupid.
We’ll be at the back of a ten year queue to get back into the EU, Engwaland will stop sending us Kendal Mint Cake, and Yorkshire Puddings, we won’t be able to use the pound, nobody would lend us any money, we’d have FIFTEEN BILLION POUND Deficit, we’d have to pay folk to suck the last few drops of oil out of the ground,we’d have to cut benefits, stop pensioners state pensions, and North Korea and Russia would take turns at showering us with ICBM’s.
Or; maybe they all got it wrong, and were a bunch of fucking self seeking liars.
Went along to one of Paul Kavanagh’s (WGD) talks last night. Highly recommend that if you get the chance, get along and listen to the man.
Also
The dug is bigger than you think and a shameless extrovert. Will stop for petting. 🙄
Brian Powell says:
10 March, 2017 at 7:17 pm
Another thought, as Unionists will be making arguments that Scotland would still need to leave. If NI were to reunite with Ireland would it need to reapply to join the the EU?
I know that’s a hypothetical, just a thought.
I know this has been answered and likened to the former East Germany after reunification, but let’s also be perfectly clear; as a current member, fullfilling ALL the necessary terms and conditions for joining as an independent nation, we are separating from a leaving union of countries because, amongst other things, we don’t want to leave the EU. East Germany would have not been able to join as an indepndent country as they met very few of the conditions at the time. It was only by reunifying with the West, who already fulfilled the terms and conditions, that they could manage to join.
Apart from that, they ceased being a country, although many did not recognise them as a separate county and reverted to being the new 5 federal states (Berlin was already part of West Germany) of a leading member state. Anyone familiar with the area will know that it still suffers greatly with many many empty buildings right wing extremism that the freedom of speech and freedom of political expression has brought with it. It has had billions invested in it, but that investment has made a few very rich and the majority jobless. Many areas are now empty of people and the buildings are falling into a sad state of disrepair.
The former East German situation is totally different in all respects from that of iScotland retaining/regaining membership.
If iScotland retained it’s membership by being the successor state of the UK, wouldn’t that mean we would need to keep ALL UK debt as the state(s) leaving the UK would no longer need to furnish them?
Better leave and rejoin the EU than that.
Macart
Aye I have been to one of Paul’s talks…big friendly ginger dug would be more accurate 🙂
Paul’s knowledge of Spanish politics and the nuances therein is refreshing compared to the shallow bilge we get in the media.
I heard the Liberals on the radio this morning. I see they are viying to be the bestest Ultra Loyalist No Surrender Party. Even the Tory and Gary Robertson seemed taken aback (Gary said he was taken aback). I think any thought that Liberals might be a safe last bo to tick in the Council Elections needs to think again.
latest rumours from wm, treeza plans to storm out of brexit talks after german elections.
the 2 year a50 period is a maximum, not a minimum, I cant see why the brexit negs will take longer than 2 mins let alone 2 years
with no deal on the table, treeza will have no choice but to leave as the uk cannot start trade talks and deals with other countries until the uk has officially left.
this could be as soon as this sept. we dont have 2 years to hold indyref2, or the option of remaining or staying in the eu. we will be out this sept and after indyref2 in sept18, an indyscotland will need to reapply or whatever type of membership it wants
we will also be without the protection of european rights,
@HandandShrimp
Seems the Liberals are quite so Liberally minded anymore.
No, I won’t be casting any vote toward any unionist party in the coming elections. Had there been one, even an individual, I respected that would have been different. Today though and after the conferences of the past few weeks?
They made a choice. Now I think they’ll find so will the folk who’ve been exposed to the rhetoric and fallout from those conferences.
Just so they know though. Their choice.
@Shrodingers Cat
Seriously? The UK and EU are already at loggerheads over the 60 billion price tag the EU has put on the UKs departure and that’s without Article 50 even being invoked.
If you think its not going to take a hell of a lot longer than 2 years to sort out then you’re not paying attention.
There is a spaghetti of legal legislation to untangle before a UK outside of the EU can begin to operate as the UK again.
Until the legalities are sorted out the UK is going nowhere.
Hissy fits or no Hissy fits.
@schrodingers cat
you say,
`the 2 year a50 period is a maximum`,
where in fact Aricle 50/3 state,
`two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period`,
though does not cover the scenario if one side wants an extension and the other does not.
Spain’s position was always that, due to the Spanish constitution, Catalan independence or even a referendum would be illegal, whereas Scottish independence achieved through a referendum and recognised by the Uk would be le legal. Spain accepted that it could not veto the accession of a legally independent Scotland, hence the difference between Scotland and Catalonia
Liz g, Yesindy
I think it was good that our ‘interested Mr. Junk’ got a civil reply but even today my gut instinct is unchanged.
Who knows whether he was legit or no but I just got the picture of one of these Government-trained cyber-snoopers posing as an interested party trying to find out some of our ‘innermost thoughts’ .
‘Carruthers! find out how these Natzs really think about Brexit. Jump to it , man, and make sure you use camouflage! ‘
Nothing as subtle for the BBC coverage of the Greens conference today.
Just listened to Patrick Harvie’s speech – very good.
The applause was deafening!
Sounded like more than the Scottish Tories, SLAB and Lib-Dems combined –
BUT WE’LL NEVER KNOW.
The entire time we were only shown Patrick’s head and shoulders and no wide angle shot of the hall, the size of the room, the numbers in the audience and at the very end, when Patrick thanked two members who were standing down – and obviously got an ovation – we didn’t get to see them.
Worse still, at the final part of the broadcast, Harvey invited all the upcoming candidates to come onto the stage to applause, the BBC cut away.
End of broadcast.
To all extents and purposes, Patrick could have been giving his speech in an empty room with canned applause except that at the end, he definitely got a standing ovation as you could see the tops of at least 8 heads obscuring the very bottom of the picture.
Is the BBC biased? Definitely…
Dek says:
11 March, 2017 at 1:27 am
Liz g has it right. The foreshore is part of what is known as “the regalia ” – controlled but not
The Crown Commission controls from the Mean Low Water Mark to the Mean High Water Mark , in other words from the lowest the water goes out and highest in rises, and it is the average tidal range, not including spring tides
yes seriously
if the uk’s opening gambit is the UK will leave the single market and the custom union and adopt WTO rules, what is there to discuss? this is a very binary option. as for a trade deal, the eu has already stated numerous times, these are brexit negotiations, not trade negs, trade negs can only happen once the uk has left. I fully expect i the uk refuses the 60bn bill, the eu will merely make its payment a pre-equisit for trade negs to even begin
Scot Finlayson says:
@schrodingers cat
you say,
`the 2 year a50 period is a maximum`,
yes it is Scot, the brexit negotiation dialog from treeza is all about what a great trade deal the uk will get from the eu, whereas the eu has said repeatedly, no free movement of people, no free movement of goods and no trade deal until after the uk brexits.
this is why treeza announced the uk is leaving the single market, not because she wants to, but to save face when the eu tells her officially the uk is out of the single market. Storming out in september is another face saving exercise as by then, it will be apparent that the brexit negs are over and no trade negotiations are going to take place either. Leaving early, is the only way the uk an start trade negs with anyone. If the pound tanks and the economy stutters, she will need some good news in the form of new trade deals with elsewhere, the option of sitting and twiddling her thumbs or 2 years wont be an option.
Schodingers Cat
“What is there to discuss”?
I already told you there is the entangled mess of the joint legal legislation that flows through UK legislation that has to first be untangled to a mutual satisfactory conclusion. That alone is going to take years.
The UK Government wont be able to enact a hell of a lot of legislation until it becomes untangled.
It wont be able to introduce new legislation if it clashes with existing joint EU UK legislation.
You cant ignore the massive great big fat fucking elephant in the room.
crazycat,
“@ Brian
Do you really, seriously, not know that it’s saying “is it your time of the month?” that is the problem, not the gender assumption?”
Exactly.
Thank you for forcing him to apologise for his disgraceful comment.
You will have noticed that he was still trying to argue with me about it.
craig sheridan,
“Article 50 being triggered merely starts a 2 year process of exit talks and there is a reasonable chance of an extension being required.”
I thought 2 years was the maximum, hence the delay in triggering it.
I see zero chance of it being extended.
The rest of the EU can’t wait to get rid of this obstructing member.
For future reference:
Brian Doonthetoon,
11 March, 2017 at 1:15 am
“So I will not respond to “Rock”, in any shape or form, in future.”
Ian Brotherhood,
11 February, 2017 at 12:59 am
“Rock and his supporters are – successfully – choking the life out of creative, informative discourse on this site.
No more appealing to Rev, or anyone else – I’m out.”
Thepnr,
8 March, 2017 at 10:04 pm
“@Rock
Still seeking attention then. You’re a bigger numptie than Harvie. You will never receive a response again from me. Your not worth it.”
Rock your clearly an mi5/gchq/sis/Mis
Spook
We can all see you for what you are!
Not quite how the Olive Press reported it. (English language paper in the South of Spain.)
link to theolivepress.es