Taking the strain
We’re on about Day 79 of NoScottishPoliticsNewsGate (today’s big “EXCLUSIVE!” in the Herald is something we told you about last Friday, and was also an “exclusive” in yesterday’s Scottish Sun), so we found ourselves getting diverted by something else in the papers this morning.
The Scottish Daily Mail had a piece on the cost of train journeys from Scotland, and living in Bath you don’t need to tell us how scandalously expensive British railways are compared to almost any other country in the Northern Hemisphere.
But the Mail is the Mail, and it couldn’t help distorting even an open-goal of a story like that until it had almost no relation to reality. And it’s a very useful illustration, should anybody need yet another one, of how this country’s newspapers vastly mislead their readers without actually technically lying.
The centrepiece of the article is this table:
And even semi-alert readers will have immediately picked up on how dishonest it is.
For a start, no sane person who’s paying for their own ticket ever gets an open return on a train. They’re just unnecessary. A bog-standard off-peak return is highly flexible (you can come back on any off-peak train within a month) and half the price.
For example, a train from Edinburgh to London tomorrow, coming back on Thursday, will cost you £142.90, not £319, even if you want to leave at the crack of dawn.
And even at less than 24 hours notice you can cut that by £25 if you’re prepared to tie yourself to a specific return time. Otherwise you can come home whenever you feel like it up to the start of January.
To fly, on the other hand, the cheapest RyanAir will do the trip for is £107.24 for two singles, flying out in the middle of the afternoon and coming back at dawn, meaning that you only really get one day in London – you’re not in town until gone 6pm on the Tuesday and you’ll need to be up by 6am on the Thursday.
That’s because RyanAir actually flies to Stansted, almost 40 miles outside London.
So to get to and from actual London you’ll need a train. The Stansted Express takes 50 minutes each way and costs £29 for a return, making the total cost of the journey £136.24 – barely a fiver less than the flexible train from Edinburgh.
Plus an extra tenner if you don’t want to be in security all day.
And another £8.50 return for the 41-minute tram ride to Edinburgh Airport.
And for that you can only take one tiny bag with you, barely enough for a change of socks. If you want to take enough luggage for a couple of nights or for bringing back any souvenirs, you’re talking another £30 to £53 each way.
So all in, from central Edinburgh to central London, you’re looking at:
RAIL: £118
(most comparable option, fixed times)
AIR: £144.74 (cheapest) to £215.23 (more comparable)
(depending on baggage and security speed)
Which isn’t very much like the Mail’s claimed £319 vs £97.
And it’s not like you save on time. The tram plus the flight plus the train from Stansted totals just shy of three hours in pure journey time, plus transfers and however long you spend in the airport taking your shoes off and getting rid of all your snacks and drinks in case they’re bombs – let’s conservatively say another hour including a sensible contingency allowance, so four hours in total. But realistically more than that.
On the train you’ll get from Waverley to Kings Cross in 4h 19m, with as much luggage as you can carry, all the 2-litre bottles of Pepsi you want, and the absolute minimum of hassle – just sit down, relax and go. You’ll get two full days in the UK capital for your money, and for a couple of quid less than the cheapest air fare you can also make your return journey on any train you like for a full month if you want to extend your trip.
(With the fully comparable ticket flexibility, baggage options and so on, the respective totals become £143 on the train vs £258 by air.)
Nothing the Mail’s article says is technically untrue. But it’s a wildly unfair portrayal of the reality, and that’s just for a simple bit of travel. So just imagine how much they’re misleading you about anything that actually matters.
Question though is WHY the Mail is punting this ridiculous story. They always have a hidden agenda.
have you counted the number of airline adverts they carry
good analysis here easy to forget about getting to and from airports and how much time and money that costs. Thank you. I know this is a slight divergence to your main point which is time and money, but Id like to add a bit about all the waiting, mainly standing when flying. You have to queue (standing) for the bag drop, then queue (standing) for security, then queue (standing) at the gate, then sit on the plane for hours cos youve missed your slot because the plane is late (because an earlier plane left late because the sub contracted portable exit stair company couldnt provide serviceable stairs to get off the b**** plane for 15 minutes on the previouss flight – yes it did happen). So now you are way over 5 hours never mind 4.
Nobody likes being lied to or mislead or diverted from the truth so who are the target people of articles like this because it can’t really be consistent users of these services because most of them you would think would know the prices fairly well. and it can’t be the car drivers because in general speaking as a car driver I don’t care
So who are the Mail and other papers communicating with when they do these stories, is it just the elderly who don’t travel but are enraged at the thought of it being expensive if they did, or is it just supporters of general bitterness who enjoy spreading this drivel just because they can, or is it very young people who don’t have enough money to travel even if they wanted to
Or does the Daily Mail and others believe that there are enough stupid people out there who’ll keep buying this just because they’re stupid enough to enjoy being insulted
You’ll always get stupid people but in the age of the interweb where people are buying less and less newspapers especially of the quality of the Mail one would wonder at this strategy as a business model for the future
Unless you conclude that the people running the Daily Mail are themselves stupid
Once again the Rev exposes the craven deceit of scum-rags like the daily mail.
Talking of misleading I can’t wait for the BBC programme about how long people are waiting for operations and how shite the nurses and doctors are, closely followed by how students would be much better of if they paid £40K in uni fees (heard Brewar on Sunday)
Of course all to be repeated endlessly by radio Scotland all morning and Call Kaye repeating it endlessly.
I noticed they stopped attacking the Police – I guess some producer got a knock on the door and told how often the cops would be pulling him over if the nonsense did not stop.
The icing on the cake of course is how the BBC protect us from FAKE news – Is it possible to Trump the BBC
HA HA HA
I vastly prefer rail to flying. Cut the train journey time by an hour and absolutely nobody will fly.
You also get 4 hours uninterrupted working / thinking / sleeping / drinking time on the train, and only an hour of that on the plane – the rest of the time is taken up by faffing about.
This kind of article is stock-in-trade for the MSM and has been repeated with variables for years and years now. Particularity useful for them on a slow news day. I work in publishing and we call it a ‘kick the filing cabinet and see what falls out’ news feature. usually a boiler plate article – fill in the blanks for fares and times etc…compare railway walk-on fares against airline APEX fares. Also, what you don’t say is that airline fares change daily whereas standard rail fares such as off-peak open returns (return in a month) do not vary from day to day.
Interestingly enough, try comparing long distance train fares with trying to buy a ticket on the day of travel at an airport at an airline ticket counter….ouch! Four significant figures have been quoted at my local airport in the past.
Some people are just beyond help out there.
A few years ago, i was in a checkout queue buying milk eggs etc, and the old couple were putting through their weekly shop, which included a case of beer.
Thd checkout staff kindly, and she thought, helpfully, informed the couple that if they bought 2 cases of beer, it weirdly, worked out £1 CHEAPER.
It was one of those ‘2 for £20’ sort of deals or £21 for one case deals supermarkets were so fond off.
The woman went off on a rant saying that if they wanted 2 cases they would buy 2…and were pretty nasty to the checkout woman.
Even after explaining it to them, they were indignant …”do we look like we cannot afford to buy 2 cases of beer” ? !!!
She gave up and off this old couple stormed.
Some people just do not want to be helped, nor even listen.
I bet if that couple dropped their money, they wouldn’t scream “do we look like we need that money” at a good samaritan trying to hand it back to them?
Probably accuse the good samaritan of trying to rob them.
Readers of certain media fit the above bill, i would put money on it.
And here in Dundee there’s a small plane which flies from here to London City for pretty silly money if you’re rich enough. Getting to a larger airport even if you take the Megabus (change at Halbeath park and ride) takes a long time.
But a short bus ride and I’m within spitting distance of our spanking new train station upper entrance (same old Victorian one down on the platform of course) but you can get a Virgin or CrossCountry train to central London. Done it a couple of times.
I even did Dundee to Glasgow Paisley entirely on public transport (work travel to the US) once. Doable if you don’t mind the bus stop outside Paisley station. Lone females in the winter dark might not, I’m 6′, broad shouldered and athletic so I’m fine with it.
Besides I love trains if there’s the time. You see more for a start and as you say you can take pretty much as much luggage as you want.
Guy put a folded wheelchair under the Megabus at Halbeath coming back from Edinburgh this morning. Not so easy at the airport.
As an elderly old git, I can get a third off return rail travel to London with a senior rail card, for £71.00 and even save a lot more by ticket splitting.
Mind you, I wouldn’t want to go to that there londinium in the first place.
I actually flew back to Manchester rather than Glasgow last year with Emirates. The flight was £200 cheaper, left at the same time and got me into Motherwell via the £48 return train ticket at the same time my flight would have landed in Glasgow.
I actually spent an overnight in Bury, visited Arcade Club,played a ton of 1980s arcade games, drank some beer and took the flight next morning for the same cost as would have been the direct flight to Glasgow. Split Ticketing can cut your journey immensely on the West coast main line.
Why anyone would choose to fly rather than take the train to Central London I have no idea. City to city, slap bang in the centre of town and the exact same journey time (or better !) with a fraction of the hassle.
And let’s not forget tge “SNP MP’S in business flights” lies that these bastards printed just 2 years ago because the politicians need to buy open returns.
I used to be able to get back from Norway offshore via Stavanger and Aberdeen than I could from the Northern rigs via the Shetlands.
Proud Cybernat says:
Question though is WHY the Mail is punting this ridiculous story. They always have a hidden agenda.
Surely a better question is simply, “Why is the Mail”
Absolutely spot on. The wife remains keen to visit London in the New Year and keeps looking for cheap flights. They’d need to be VERY cheap to justify it in my book. I’m never in an airport less than an hour before flying to get through security etc. Even a glasgow to London City BA flight you have the DLR to get (min 30 mins) at the other end and there’s the waiting at the airport for trains. I don’t understand flying to London as I don’t believe it’s possible to get from door to door any faster than by tain. And trains are better for the planet.
I live just north of London,I recently visited my sister in Glasgow by train. Booked 3 weeks in advance, the return fare was £73 First Class (with an old codgers railcard). And that includes as much as you can eat and drink on the main section between Peterborough and Edinburgh and free tea and biscuits Edinburgh to Glasgow. Obviously this is of little interest to your average Daily Mail frother.
I read and article in the DM (at the car dealer, I didn’t buy it, honest) regarding the amount of immigrants in our jails and what a bunch o criminals they are etc etc. It took about 15 minutes research using their data to work out percentage of each minority in jail compared to that of the population to discover the least law abiding people in Britain are…The British of course!
What’s motivating this story?
Perhaps it’s just as simple as having a good moan to a readership which likes nothing better than a good moan. They live in a world where things are just all wrong.
I have the image of a Mail reader as having a permanent scowl. The kind of person who snaps at everyone and never says please or thank you.
The Mail likes to make such folks feel at home when they read it.
“I actually spent an overnight in Bury, visited Arcade Club,played a ton of 1980s arcade games, drank some beer and took the flight next morning for the same cost as would have been the direct flight to Glasgow.”
I so so want to go to Arcade Club. It looks fantastic, especially in the new venue.
@ Muscleguy
Where’s this “Glasgow Paisley” place you were in, big man? Egh?
Yup. Train every time for me. I took the family on that route in September. It was about £110 each way for two adults and two kids. Our youngest is two years old, and travelled free.
The return train got in to Waverley 31 minutes late. The announcer apologised and informed us we were entitled to compensation. LNER refunded the entire cost of the return leg.
“this country’s newspapers vastly mislead their readers without actually technically lying.”
To be fair the Ferret does the same with their nuclear reporting but because they are promoting a political viewpoint that Wings (I assume) agree with they get retweeted instead of put down.
Craig P @4.O5
Exactlty, airports are hellish for wasting time. My wife and me are going to London tomorrow from Kirkcaldy, (with free car parking), with 2 senior rail cards, first class for £206. Go standard class and it will be a lot less. Takes 5 hours but you are in comfortable seats with free tea/coffee and snacks on the journey. Sleep, do a crossword, read and relax and you get there refreshed.
Been doing that for years, and as long as you book in advance you will get a good deal. The staff are always pleasant as well.
Sad to say I used to buy the Mail, but I liked it for the crosswords. Been a long time since I picked one up now though.
There is no doubt that travelling by train is less stressful and nobody has you emptying your pockets and taking your shoes off. I remember when catching the shuttle was like jumping on a train then it became increasingly tedious. Also you rarely see the newspapers ranting about late planes but I think we have all sat on the tarmac inexplicably for 2 or more hours.
I do wish the train fares were more transparent though. Then I wish energy tariffs were more transparent. I wish mobile phones and internet prices were more transparent. The UK business model is to treat people as appallingly as is possible to get away with without actually going to jail.
flexible tickets are not always available with airlines, I doubt Ryanair or Easyjet do one and you are mostly booking well in advance anyway.
Booking train tickets well in advance saves an absolute fortune. Edinburgh-London return, in advance for January has cost me £66.50
The best value would be to cancel your Herald subscription/order and travel by any means you choose.
The Attorney General sounds like a pissed over acting Brian Blessed,
it
The Attorney General sounds like a pissed over acting Brian Blessed,
it`s like `Carry On Up the Union`.
Does anyone believe a single word any of the unionist rags print? Their useless hacks will print any old bollocks, if it raises sales and favours the union.
Even after we achieve independence, I’ll never buy them.
In addition, aye would say Theresa May is also taking the strain.
Aye Love listening to Scotland’s First Minister, Nicola, speaking on the radio… she looks to the bigger political picture affecting all and makes Theresa and the Tories look SO amateurish.
7 and a bit days to go now.
It’s 6pm.
I have never and will never fly with Lyin Air, haven’t flown Sleezyjet (although they seem to better),as for Lyin Air I would rather drag my rotting corpse over broken glass than give them business.
Train costs are a problem, but hey who privatised them? maybe its time to take them back into public ownership, but this would have to be done fairly, I am sure “cherry picking” would still be rife. The usual excuses of “large populations need more trains than the rural areas” etc.
A few years back the wife and I walked into Valencia train station to get to Barcelona. Normal punter class ticket, leather reclining seats, film/ supplied headphones, spotless, coffee 1 euro. Left to the second arrived to the second.
A few days later decided to get a return back to Valencia, the lady in the Barcelona office noticed we had purchased 2 singles previously, she then deducted the cost so in theory we got the cheaper return ticket. The Spanish rail system is light years ahead of wipoff Bwittan
But then again we are constantly told by the establishment that the EU is a con, I personally know from experience from EU travel, who the real con merchants are, and they are not in the EU.
Expect the ESSEMMPEE BAAD to get the blame for this.
Scot Finlayson@5.05
As in all “Carry On films” there were normally a pair of t*ts on display, take a look at the current Tory party, they are full of useless ti*s. Gove, Fluffy etc.
“Carry on Up the Onion” its enough to make you cry.
Who would play the matron?? Too many choices for that role.
It is just nonsense. With a rail card the journeys are far cheaper. Booked in advance cheaper still. If the rail times in the North and Scotland were reduced, it would be much quicker. Rail could compare with flight times and be more convenient. Every hour. Instead of hanging about in airports. Instead of spending £Billions on HS2, which will make rail journeys throughout Britain take longer. A total waste of time and money with no business case.
OT but hilarious … in a sad sort of way.
Media full of the ‘revelation’ that Irish Brexit backstop could go on indefinitely according to attorney general in his advice,
That’s what BACKSTOP means! It was ALWAYS intended to operate until some suitable alternative came along. No alternative and it becomes PERMANENT.
No body been paying attention? The MSM never does, does it?
It’s a couple of euros on Spanish trains and buses. Subsided public transport. It was a euro on the Dublin trams. Fixed journey. Fixed price. Only two routes over the City. They were planning to extend it,
The Edinburgh trams are much cheaper than the bus. OAP’s from other places can’t use their off-peak (bus) travel passes on the Trams. They should be able to use them. The Trams were supposed to be for everyone. Paid for by all taxpayers. In many rural areas there is a poor bus service.
Fuck – the BBC are in full SNP bad mode tonight – either directly or subliminal. I really do hate these bastards.
Regards the DUP and the Irish Back-Stop,,,the problem our Orange friends have in N Ireland is that they could never come to terms with living under Dublin Rule.
Because that is what would happen,,,Dublin would have more of a say on day to day life in N Ireland than London would.
Well done wingsoverscotland another good report.
I love it when you give the facts the show us the lies and deception played out in UK newspapers and BBC.
Surely there can be nobody left in Scotland that still thinks they get news and truth in newspapers and from BBC ?
I mean once you discover the lies and deception don’t you just naturally look at everything they print and say with great suspicion ?
Of course there are people who benefit from those lies and that deception , we must not forget about that , they are right here amongst us .
Air travel just sucks anyway….rabbit warrens forcing you through shops with shitty low ceilings, no natural daylight – then through fascist control……I mean…..body scanners….wtf is that all about?, and people just TAKE IT!
Then onto a tin can propelled through the air at stupid speed with the fuel tank six inches under yer feet (and no, its no as safe as they say).
Sharing a confined space with grumpy pissed off smelly people all breathing in re-circulated air and hoping no to catch the lurgy.
Its a shit state of affairs and airports are no better than bus stations, run into the ground by greedy bastards obsessed with finding a new way to screw you over…..drop off fee…..f*ck me…..and people just TAKE IT!
BBC Reporting Scotland tells us that a man needing a hip replacement went to France and had it done then sent the bill to the Scottish government
Two things here, 1 France is an Independent country that doesn’t have its budget set by someone else
2 The Scottish government paid the bill without question because it’s not always about money but shortage of staff that causes longer waiting times, and why is Scotland short of staff, well I think everybody with a brain knows the answer to that one
Teachers are striking = Unions, Trains going slow or being cancelled = Unions, who’s in charge of the Unions? no need for postcards is there
In St Andrews today a man came and told us he was a spy from MI6 and we should be frightened of Russia
I’m not a spy but I think we should be frightened of the people who sent this man from England to Scotland to tell us he’s a spy from MI6
Do we think MI6 sends spies to come to Scotland to tell us they’re spies? I kinda don’t think so, I mean we’re not really supposed to know are we so why would you come and blab to a load of foreign and rich University students
BTW I am a spy really, Ooops I blabbed!
Ken500 says:
The Edinburgh trams are much cheaper than the bus.
This is just untrue, they both cost £1.70 for a single. Why do you continue to post lies on this forum?
Dr Jim 6.55pm
The more we hear of England’s built in hatred of all things Russian,, the more I find myself siding with Russia.
If England ever did find the guts to go to war with Russia, I could see myself digging out my old Cossack uniform and side with my Russian friends rather than those detested bastards to the south if our border.
The “ Jackie Bird show” tonight “ starring “ better together2 GB ( Gordon Broon) and “ Sir” Ian Wood . Surely Alistair Darling will be “ starring” over Xmas? ( after all its panto season ).
News just in! Britnat Westminster has just passed a law, thanks to its English majority, that compels all Scots to commit suicide.
Rabid britnat Scots are already dropping like dead stinking flies. Reports confirm their last words are always, “Westminster law must be obeyed. Westminster law must be obeyed… we’re… not… worthy… section… thirrrr.”
BBC Reporting Scotland setting new standards for reporting – as low as you can get standards.
Every aspect of Scottish society according to this programme is rubbish. They can always find someone (usually a Britnat who hates the SNP) to tell Scotland how rubbish some sector of Scottish society is and how it is all the fault of the Scotgov and these useless people called Scots who annoyingly live in Scotland.
Amazingly despite the fact that 50% of the people living in Scotland think the media in Scotland is rubbish Reporting Scotland never seem to be able to find anyone to rubbish Reporting Scotland and the media in Scotland.
According to the media in Scotland the only sector of Scottish society that is not rubbish is the media in Scotland. Is the reason the fact that the media in Scotland is not Scottish but English and therefore exempt from being classified as rubbish.
English TV and English propaganda.
Its a wonder there are any Scots left in Scotland with all the conditioning that has been going on for centuries.
When others are discussing whether the UK Union is about to hit the buffers or if the SNP’s indyref policy has gone off the rails, Wings discusses a Daily Mail article about train fares.
Enjoy.
@7.41
And your point is????
ZZZZZZZZZ
I once thought I may have to get back to Edinburgh from South Wales (Cardiff). Pricing up the train it was going to cost over £300 and that didn’t include all the other public transport links and it would have taken 8 hours and 2 changes.
Flybe from Cardiff was cheaper and quicker. I had a quick look online and could have got a week’s B&B in Turkey cheaper than the train fare.
It’s quicker and cheaper to fly.
Great stuff and good to know thanks Stuart for once again, debunking the pandering to faux outraged from somewhere, anywhere, as long as they can be outraged at stuff that has minimal effect in their quality of lives.
O/T
I was in a local charity shop other day, got chatting to an older lady, she was all, lovely this cheap jewellry, lovely that (revolting) sequined dress, and the usual, ‘ah, but it’s nowhere near as bad as it was in my day, the young have it so good now don’t they’.
Me, er no I don’t think so, and anyway, this is 2018, it should be a decent life for our young people. ‘Oh but they do have it very good’. Me, really? there are far too many who most certainly do not! End of conversation.
These right wing rags pander to those lost in the past, where life was very hard for many, and are led to believe their generation had it the worst, so it can’t be as bad now.
I fear some are fed a few tall tales, as if the younger people now are having a ball. Most are not, and if we don’t treat them right, there’ll be no one to pay the pensions of the next gen of retirees. Then what.
Ps if any of you are feeling at all Xmassy yet, go watch ‘Granny ‘o’ Grimm’s Christmas Greeting’ on youtube, or Granny o Grimm’s Sleeping Beauty’. Beware, it’s quite dark.
Oh and one more thing. Airline compensation is far better than rail compensation. If you have patience when delayed. Yes it’s crap but The other year we had 2 delayed/cancelled flights. The compensation not only paid for flights but we actually made money and I have 1 decent crappy flying story to tell.
Cubby @ 7:40 pm
You wrote: “BBC Reporting Scotland setting new standards for reporting – as low as you can get standards.”
This evening’s Reporting Scotland was exceptional, even by the programme’s own illustrious standards, in showing its viewers just how crap Scotland is in so many aspects of the life of the country. Tonight’s editor/producer is due a promotion … or a gong … for packing in so many negatives in one half hour! And then, to cap his/her achievement, even managed to get Gordon Brown into the limelight!
Had some feedback recently from a former YES voter who is now tending towards NO – if they have a chance to vote again – because of ‘all the negativity’ around! I have always been concerned at media negativity damping down momentum towards YES but hopefully it won’t have the potential to do more damage than that!
“Collie says:
3 December, 2018 at 7:13 pm
Dr Jim 6.55pm
The more we hear of England’s built in hatred of all things Russian,, the more I find myself siding with Russia.
If England ever did find the guts to go to war with Russia, I could see myself digging out my old Cossack uniform and side with my Russian friends rather than those detested bastards to the south if our border.”
Keep your racist nonsense to yourself.
Our argument is with Westminster not the English people.
Huh! They’re never knowingly honest to be sure. I wonder if they even know what they’re doing, or what they’ve done to their own insustry? … No. Never mind.
“” Brian says:
3 December, 2018 at 7:48 pm
I once thought I may have to get back to Edinburgh from South Wales (Cardiff). “”
Let us know when you actually do it, instead of wasting time researching scenarios to pick a point, or your no’s.
“Brian”
… and you’ve got more chance of surviving a train crash.
Colin Alexander @ 7.41.Read the last paragraph of the Rev’s post. Or did you not get that far?
” Brian says:
3 December, 2018 at 7:48 pm
I once thought I may have to get back to Edinburgh from South Wales (Cardiff). “
How did you imagine you would get to South Wales (Cardiff) initially? Brian ~~:
Watched the Attorney General Geoffrey Cox this afternoon answering questions on the legal advice.
Boy, this man is class.
Someone mentioned Brian Blessed.
Agreed
But what conviction he had and a complete command of his subject.
Definitely, someone to watch no matter your political allegiance.
I wonder if their target in this instance might be Jeremy Corbyn, and his rail re-nationalisation proposals? Another dig in an ongoing long game, perhaps.
” Brian says:
3 December, 2018 at 7:55 pm
Oh and one more thing. Airline compensation is far better than rail compensation. If you have patience when delayed. Yes it’s crap but The other year we had 2 delayed/cancelled flights. The compensation not only paid for flights but we actually made money and I have 1 decent crappy flying story to tell. ”
If you don’t have patience, is it not better?
Surely 2 jolly decent & jolly crappy flying stories to tell?
and oh, 2 more things.
Nice to see Gordon Brown back out and about always enjoyed Gordons humour.
Like to see Gordon back as chancellor pair him up with Hugh Gaffney as PM.
Now theres a team.
@george wood: “Our argument is with Westminster not the English people.”
Well said and worth saying often!
And remember that large tracts of England also suffer under Westminster misrule, having neither any kind of “responsible adult” regional government to mitigate its effects, nor the possibility of independence from whatever fiasco the Etonian clique unleashes next.
Making common cause with people south of the border is better than making enemies of them.
I always travel by train if possible. Takes you right into the heart of whichever city you’re travelling to rather than being 30 or 40 miles outside. Overnight sleeper seats are good value though last few times they could have done with turning the heating up.
Collie says:
3 December, 2018 at 7:13 pm
“The more we hear of England’s built in hatred of all things Russian,, the more I find myself siding with Russia.
If England ever did find the guts to go to war with Russia, I could see myself digging out my old Cossack uniform and side with my Russian friends rather than those detested bastards to the south if our border.”
It was the ultimate in stupidity and gutlessness for Nicola to stand “shoulder to shoulder” with “Tory scum” Saint Theresa and the “ghastly” Boris Johnson as they declared war on Russia after a false flag operation.
She had no reason to open her mouth – she should have dismissed it as a reserved matter. That would have shut up the unionists. Instead she is now hostage to what she said.
Sky News is probably now worse than the BBC!
Headline …. “Labour and DUP team up with four other parties to threaten ‘contempt’ over Brexit legal advice”
Shoosh… never mention Scotland or the SNP.
If you’re travelling between Edinburgh city centre and the airport, I would recommend the bus (Airlink 100) rather than the tram. It’s faster – 25 to 30 minutes instead of 40. It’s cheaper (£7.50 return). If you’re a pensioner from outside Edinburgh, you can use your bus pass on it, unlike the tram.
“Had some feedback recently from a former YES voter who is now tending towards NO….”
Oh aye – sure you did.
Once a voter’s eyes are open to how badly served Scotland is within this anachronistic and utterly dysfunctional so-called ‘Union’, they do not easily close.
I’ve never met anyone like that – EVER. So, it makes me wonder what your game is?
o/t
Speaker backs Brexit contempt debate
link to archive.is
o/t
Article by Tom Gordon
Nicola Sturgeon rejects idea of Scottish independence without Indyref2
link to archive.is
Tom Gordon lies.
“MorvenM says:
3 December, 2018 at 9:17 pm
If you’re travelling between Edinburgh city centre and the airport, I would recommend the bus (Airlink 100) rather than the tram. It’s faster – 25 to 30 minutes instead of 40. It’s cheaper (£7.50 return). If you’re a pensioner from outside Edinburgh, you can use your bus pass on it, unlike the tram.”
Do the signs at the airport still direct tourists to the trams rather than the cheaper and faster buses?
All these tourists getting ripped off by the council, airport and LRT.
Thanks Nana for posting both links.
The FM says the referendum must come when support for Independence grows higher
I believe that to be wrong because I believe a referendum on Independence should be held when support for the Union goes down and that’s a different thing
Support for the Union is going down but that doesn’t necessarily equate to those NO voters switching to YES, my firm belief is that previous NO voters just won’t vote rather than admit they were wrong
Just because people are or were wrong doesn’t mean they don’t have any pride in what they may have thought and believed in 2014 they just don’t want their noses rubbed in it as they did to us post 2014
Voters don’t vote in every election for various reasons next time I believe many NO voters just won’t vote
If Scotland is to wait for a shift in polling for YES we’ll wait till the cows come home, plus is that how we’re doing parliamentary democracy now, depending on polling companies?
because if we are there’s not a lot of point in having a parliament at all we might as well leave all decisions to the press and Rupert Murdoch like they want us to
@Brian Powell
Indeed he does lie, as does Glenn Campbell who is also saying the same re indyref2
I can not find any footage of Nicola actually commenting on indyref, have found her commenting on a second brexit ref
video
link to twitter.com
Proud Cybernat @ 9:27 pm
“I’ve never met anyone like that – EVER. So, it makes me wonder what your game is?”
Disappointed in what seems like a rather too aggressive response there!
‘My game’ as you put it right at this minute is spending thinking time how best to use the opportunity I have to get back in touch with this ‘real’ individual and address their point of view. And the context of my initial remarks was the exceptional negativity – even by its own standards – of Reporting Scotland’s programme tonight and its potential influence.
But why the hell am I justifying myself to you? Perhaps to discourage any complacency.
George Wood
Fuck off !!!
I fly to London twice a month for work and have done for years. My flights typically cost £9.99 each on Ryanair. Add in the taxi and Stansted Express and it’s roughly a £45 journey one way. £90 return. Significantly cheaper that if I was to use the train. If I could ever get a train for the same price, I’d consider it.
YES to NO never heard of such a thing, NO to YES and NO to not voting I’ve heard of
The sooner we are free of these detested English bastards, their stinkin Parliament and their corrupt media, the better.
I’ve always thought that Wings was a fairly friendly forum, but I’ve posted twice – the first disappeared and the second has been “awaiting moderation” for 6 hours. As a long time “lurker”, I’m not feeling encouraged to participate, or very welcome.
“I’ve always thought that Wings was a fairly friendly forum, but I’ve posted twice – the first disappeared and the second has been “awaiting moderation” for 6 hours. As a long time “lurker”, I’m not feeling encouraged to participate, or very welcome.”
All new posters have to have their first post manually approved, as clearly noted on the About page. I have other stuff to do all day than approve comments, so I don’t always get round to it for a wee while. After the first one comments get posted automatically.
After the 2014 Independence Referendum, the Electoral Commission measured the voting process as ‘the gold standard’. Meaning, that the conduct of Indy2014 was such that every country on earth ought to create their referendums after the example of Indy2014.
Can anyone please tell me how, to take just one example, the Postal Voting system in Indy2014 could possibly be classed as ‘gold standard’.
But more importantly, why does the Scottish government continue to agree with the Electoral Commission’s ‘gold standard’ assessment.
Collie give it a rest.
Either you have an issue with cognisance,
Or you have 77 brigade stamped on your forehead.
Make your mind up.
Either way, don’t clutter up formative debate with
Naughtie step for you. ..
Is anyone checking out the people in the bbc programme to see which are the actors, which are tory or labour councillors and which are real
Just a thought
Pete Barton
Fuck off !!!
Dr Jim says:
That’s a good point.
The world many NOs associate with and want to perpetuate has dissolved around them and they know it. If they aren’t disillusioned with their Union, unionist politicians & parties, Westminster, and the UK system … they should be! Many will be hacked off at the way things have turned out since 2014. Those that aren’t, are the completely blinkered!
Many NOs are likely to feel abandoned by those they supported. That does not mean they have changed their minds about what they want, it’s just what they want is no longer in the table. And, it doesn’t mean they will abandon their beliefs and views to become YES,
However, hopefully they just won’t vote!
I’ve thought of NOs as either up for conversion or BritNats to the core.
I agree with you … many will give up, feeling no one listens to or represents them. Sad, but better that than voting NO again!
Gold Standard (part 2)
The effective value of any vote, is conditional on the value of the Campaign which preceded it. A corrupt or fraudulent campaign renders even a perfectly administered vote democratically compromised and virtually pointless.
Both campaigns for Indy2014 and EU Ref16 were a disgrace. Both relied on fear and lies, and on dark money in the case of EU Ref16, as well as the involvement of Cambridge Analytica. The involvement in Indy2014 of Cambridge Analytica has not yet to my knowledge, been investigated, although on the balance of probability, Cambridge Analytica was involved.
Gold Standard? That’ll be Fools Gold then.
Dr Jim says:
3 December, 2018 at 10:14 pm
“The FM says the referendum must come when support for Independence grows higher”
“If Scotland is to wait for a shift in polling for YES we’ll wait till the cows come home”
Just be a bit more patient Jimmy, the cows have assured the FM that they are coming home in 2640 AD.
Dr Jim (17th March – “The usual suspect”):
“Our beloved First Minister Nicola Sturgeon (blessings be upon her)”
Dr jim 3.50pm. Spot on(love your posts). Although my wife and i both pensioners, we regularly travel in pensioner circles (albeit england) coach holidays,cruises etc,90% of our travelling elderly english companions are avid readers of the daily heil. And at first recoil upon hearing my accent( yes im classed as a foreigner).Bet that surprises you psb’s .And always amuses me at the end of our holiday when aforementioned says us “brits” should stick together just because they’ve got to know me and think im not to bad a guy for a colonial.
manandboy says:
I agree.
Both were won by lies, false assertions, and promises which weren’t ever going to be delivered.
This happened in both cases because the UK now has a media which does not inform and educate. It has private and state propaganda organisations. Lies are not called out by the msm. Dumbing down is policy. Too many voters were too ill informed to make rational and educated decisions. Simply, they could no longer identify bullshit.
Thanks Collie
Real informative debate.
I receive £164.35 a week as my state pension living in england. If i received £140 a week living in an independent Scotland, i would move back home tomorrow.
Collie
Had too many sherbets?
Your racism is nauseating.
Your vision of an Independent Scotland is not one that I could vote for, I would rather stay part of the Union than live in the kind of racist country you advocate.
Collie, and others..just for you:
I am half English.
I feel abused by your comments.
Perhaps others feel the same way.
I understand where you are coming from but..
This is not what is needed right now.
England is holding Scotland back.
Anything or anyone who tries to hold my country back is my sworn enemy.
A foreign Nation is acting against my country,,,they don’t have my country’s best interests at heart and therefore are my enemy. And any enemy of my country is a danger and needs to be eradicated.
And equally anybody who sides with my enemy is also my enemy.
So as I said,, the sooner the detested English bastards are dumped the better.
I wonder if the prices are different if you are going to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Manchester, Birmingham from London? Why isn’t there never any outrage at the prices travelling from London?
Collie
agent provocateur– used by the brits from day 1. Go away and return to crawl under your nearest rock.
Collie 10.34pm. My wife and daughter are english, and certainly not b*****ds. So why dont you just sign off your shift early you 77th f****g troll.
OK Collie, I’m off to bed now to beat the crap out of myself for harbouring my half Englishness.
Hope you’re a misguided scot.
Or, you’re a man taking a shilling.
In which case, there is a special place for those of your ilk.
And ‘It ain’t half hot Mum’
Pete Barton
The enemy within
Collie
England isn’t holding Scotland back. Scotland is holding Scotland back.
What a shower of English luvvin bastards you lot urr
Hamish 100
I have told you before,,don’t annoy me ya fuckin wsnker
collie dug
woof woof. You are a fishin trawler
cOLLIE
Take yir anger pills, get a guid night sleep once your mammy sings ye a wee lullaby ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, Once you threaten and you do this quite a lot you have no argument.
If I ever meet you at an Indy Rally Hamish,, you’ll soon recognise me,,I’ll be the one who brekks your neck dickheed
Yeh yeh, bully boy threatens a pro independence supporter. Please pass your details onto Police Scotland. They are kept busy enough with silly billies like you. Now off to bed with your warm milk. lol
Soft kitty warm kitty little ball of fur, happy kitty sleepy kitty purr purr purr
Whatever happened to the pleasant sensible collie that showed up in the past. Mr Angry and Mr violence has taken over again.
You are not helping the cause of independence with your outbursts. So if you are genuine then please stop it. If you do not you will be labelled as just another Britnat troll.
I’m breaking the tension
Hamish
If I get a hold of you the only bed you will be going to is a Hospital bed.
There are ‘agents provocateur” appearing more on Wings.
It seems we are well experienced to recognise them. So be it.
I had a great holiday in Cornwall in 1983. And the funny thing was, the Cornish had the same attitude to the Westminster establishment as we Scots have.
Furthermore, in the pub one night, we got into a blether with a couple from Newcastle, who felt the same way about the Westminster Establishment.
Fast forward to 2006 and I had reason to visit Bexhill on Sea, Sussex. They too had reservations about the Westminster Establishment. Their Freeview reception was crap, for which they blamed “London”.
It’s not “the English” we have a problem with, it’s the Westminster Establishment.
So you trolls who blame the English for Scotland’s situation, get a life. We recognise your style. So really, FFFF off.
@Rock
Now you’re trying to misrepresent me and that’s not nice man
when I say Nicola Sturgeon blessings be upon her I really mean it she’s the bees knees and a fine wee stoater of a woman and the only people who don’t like her are very very Baad people or they fancy her and she doesn’t fancy them back so they get phsycho bitter
You’re not like that are you Rocky boy surely not
Davie Oga@11.34pm
Westminster directs all the propaganda that conditions so many Scots to think like Britnats.
Westminster loots Scotland resources.
Westminster corrupts democracy in Scotland.
Westminster is in England.
So sorry I can’t agree with that statement.
Brian doon the toon
You always get dicks like you have to say something,,but as usual it always bullshit. You should stay off the hard stuff sir and mind your own fuckin business
When the European Union formed one of its main aims was to combine so they would never see the rise of Nationalism of the unpleasant type again
Since then they’ve expanded into the now 28 countries soon to be 27 with the UK leaving because one part of the UK has decided to revert to the unpleasant form of Nationalism that they originally joined the EU to help avoid
It’s puzzling that the UK continually demonise the SNP Nationalism as unpleasant when the SNP main aim is to join with the people who are trying to rid us all of the unpleasant types while it’s the UK who are the real separatists in leaving the peace club
Are there really still folk out there who can’t see that or are blinkered by sectarianism or some blind loyalty to a regime that doesn’t care about them anyway
SNP We really are the good guys y’know, not a uniform in sight and we like joining up with other folks
Another English luvvin bastard
No wonder it’s taking so long for us to pass the 50% mark in support for Indy,,, if you lot are anything to go by we will be an English Colony for another 300 years
Collie with his violent anti English nonsense is clearly not a supporter of independence.He is not even subtle and clearly a troll.He wants a parade of anti Englishness to destroy the independence case but he is getting few if any takers.
Colin Alexander @ 7:41 pm
When others…
What others?
Hi (and I don’t really mean that) Collie at 12:34 am.
You typed,
[BTW there are no spaces in “Doonthetoon”].
“Brian doon the toon
You always get dicks like you have to say something,,but as usual it always bullshit. You should stay off the hard stuff sir and mind your own fuckin business”
I am not usually literally aggressive but, with you, I succumb. You are an @®$E. Please go away, elsewhere or whatever.
@Collie:
My Mum born and bred in Wolverhampton married my Edinburgh Dad moved to Scotland after the war and lived here till her 80s till she passed away after 59 years in Scotland and if she were alive today would most certainly vote NO to Independence
What would you have me do about my Mum if she were alive today
Have a care in what you wish for and have a look at how that went for Ireland where nobody got what they wanted and it gave the British the excuse they wanted and it’s still there today and still nobody’s got what they want except a lot of dead relatives and a lot of bitter memories
It’s never the fault of the people it’s the fault of the power that brainwashes them
Looks like Collie is just another paid to troll sneaky Britnat taking a new approach threatening violence against independence supporters when he is masquerading as an independence supporter.
As the number and frequency of the Britnat trolls increase the more obviously worried they are that independence is coming and coming soon.
@Collie,
You should stay away from a keyboard bud. Your too full of hate to be of any use to any beggar. Try your shi#te against the Scots who vote for the Union instead, rather than your soft target of those with English lineage.
Most English couldn’t give a shit whether we were indy or not—except those in Westminster.
I very much agree with each of your points Cubby, but it is up to Scottish people to change each of them.
No one is going to do it for us but ourselves.
Aw yous Wingers who have altercations wie the resident Troll’s am sending yous Tickling sticks fur christmas . Tickling the Fannies might put them off commenting .
@BDTT
It’s not clever enough to be a 77th operative, I’d think they’re quite able, frankly. More likely a degree project from a group of four students who, from the looks of it, will be very lucky if they scrape a third class degree after 6 years. Could be a Mundell recruit though, or SiU but with the competence of SiU we’d probably know the identity and the pittance being paid as they’ve run out of money.
To be pitied and pointed at and laughed at, depending on style.
“Your comment is awaiting moderation”
Good heavens! Is “Mundell recruit” now on the naughty list, or is it “SiU”?
Ah! Probably “77th operative” when talking about the barking mad AP.
Like you I have to go up and down from near Dundee to Bristol quite a lot for work reasons. Cheapest is via Easyjet from Edinburgh to Bristol.
The train is unpleasant, expensive and you can’t always get a seat . Sometimes I persuade myself that it might be OK by train this time and usually I regret it
Edin/Bristol T. Meads / Edin 7-9 Dec. £179.20 ( I would get a 30% reduction because I have a senior railcard )
Edin/Bristol/Edin by Easyjet = £66.52 ( travelling 14-17 Dec )
The travel dates are different because you have to book at least a week in advance to get the cheap flight. The price difference would be less if you had to book a flight at short notice.
Christmas is coming and that 80inch 4K smart TV is looking nice … but, nae bawbees
I think I will try to GET A JOB as a shill for JTRIG or the 77th. I won’t be the first Scotsman to sellout his country … (or the last)
ahem …
fellow Scotch people, do you not HATE THESE ENGLISH BASTARDS
and should we not DRIVE them from our shores …
the SNP is selling out independence
Nicola only wants out of the UK in order to FLOOD SCOTLAND with PAKORAS and NAGGERONIANS seeking asylum in order to ravish white women
the SNP are trying to turn us all HOMOSEXUALIST with their tranniness in schools propaganda
we should send a message – I know where we can get weapons*
vote UKIP, white brothers
Enoch was right
tommeh tommeh tommeh – tommy robinstein
the SNP are taking SOROS money
UDI now
the SNP plan to fluoridate the water to drain our vital essences
chemtrails and shit
* 3 steak knives, £6.99 from Lidl
paypal, bitcoin and nectar points accepted
Just a quick question.
How many people reported the insane rantings of the bigoted hate spewing fool, the one that goes by, Collie ?
There are at least 6 posts which are completely unacceptable for on here.
How many engaged rather than done what Stu says to do, namely, report such disgusting garbage so he can deal with them ?
I have reported 3 comments to Stu, and at least one should be getting reported to Police Scotland.
They cannot rant thier bile if Stu bans them, can they ?
That’s funny
@geeo
It’s a difficult one. At least we know this one is “Collie”, but when banned, it could come back unders some other name, maybe already is. Make one or two positive posts and then come out bit by bit with the agenda of trying to discredit genuine posters. It’s the 3rd or 4th incarnation that’s threatened other posters.
As well as Stu, people should consider reporting it to Police Scotland. Mutliple reports could result in an investigation.
Collie I doubt you are a plant. I think there is credible possibility you are the real deal genuine bigot, but like most bigots, a big part of the problem is you don’t see the harm in it.
All I can do is point you towards this video of “Unionism” basking in all its glory, and warn you that these guys are to the Unionist movement what your anti English hate speech is to our Independence movement.
link to m.youtube.com
These numpties aren’t plants. I’m positive these people exist, and while it sticks in my craw, I respect their right to free speech, but I also believe the place for such narrow minded ill informed hatred is way, way, way out on the furthest perifory of the dialogue, and far enough away from the mainstream debate that nobody can actually hear it.
You need to exercise more self discipline Collie. If that’s how you genuinely feel about the English, then take some friendly advice. You need to get some Cillit Bang onto that dark stain inside your head before the hatred chews you up from the inside. If you feel can’t do that, then please start making your way to way, way, way out there at the perifory before you discredit the cause in the same way a brainless Rangers fan in an England top is going to win converts to Unionism.
Get smart Collie, or get lost. Sorry pal, but that’s the deal.
How disappointing to come on here scrolling to the bottom looking for the latest informed debate but all I find is reference to someone who comes on here spouting nonsense. Can we please clean up this site because there’s nothing interesting going on in the comments section at the moment. Something is no right here. People are going to switch off and newbys are certainly not going to be engaged.
Agreed.
Dr Jim @ 12.02 am You did =)
It would be too big a shock to the system if the Daily Mail were ever to print anything that was close to fair or true.
….and AS USUAL, the same people, who actually DO know better, fall into the unionist trap and spend a night engaging with pretty clear and freaking obvious trolls that would be recognised by a savvy four year old. Well done guys….slow hand clap. Jeezo.
They have changed the prices of the Edinburgh Airport bus. It used to be £6 single. £12 return.
Now it is cheaper than the tram. £4.00 single £7.50 return. Pensioners can use their bus pass and it is quicker.
Trams £1.70 2 stops. £6 single £8.50p return – but that is buying in advance from the machines. Dearer to pay on board (or it used to be).
People actually went on it for the return journey but only bought a single ticket. Not realising it was cheaper to pay at the machine. It was going to be £12 return, paying on the tram, but the conductor just charged the regular fee.
The idea of the trams were to make it cheaper. A cheaper form of travel. Yet it is dearer? Mind the construction cost was so much than anticipated. A blooming disgrace. Still not resolved. So much more over budget and the inconvenience. Digging up the roads. Businesses, especially in Leith losing business to no avail. The line didn’t even get finished. Although all the piping go renewed. Thevtiurudts were taking pictures of the chaos. Going to come back and take photos when it was finished. The chaos became a tourist attraction for some enthusiasts,
Edinburgh still has the lowered publically subsidised fares in Scotland. The wealthiest City. All the other Cities transport was privatised,
OAP’s should get to use their off-peak travel pass on the Trams. The point was for more people to use the Trams. If they are undersubscribed there has to be more buses.
At this rate Rev Stu will have to shut down at night. The carry on.
Looks like some folk have had ‘one too many’. Though not one to speak. A few fallings oot. Kettle black. A winding up. Got a warning.
Why do people rehash the rubbish. It looks like they are saying stuff.
Links
link to snp.org
link to businessforscotland.com
NICOLA Sturgeon insisted last night that the best way to achieve independence for Scotland is via a referendum.
link to archive.is
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.com
Use translate button
Theresa May has two weeks to rally skeptical MPs to the Brexit deal. The Scottish National Party will not be convinced.
“We will not be blackmailed,” said Scottish Foreign Affairs Minister Fiona Hyslop. “There is always another way of doing things and there is no majority for a Brexit without agreement. ”
link to euractiv.fr
link to pensionersforindependence.scot
Ahead of the five days of Brexit debate which starts tomorrow, this afternoon there was a debate on a second EU referendum in Westminster Hall. I summed up for the SNP – watch the full speech here:
link to youtube.com
Article from 2014
link to forbes.com
link to poundsterlinglive.com
link to opendemocracy.net
Buy shares in whitewash
link to twitter.com
Roll up, roll up, to see the Amazing Turd-Polishing Woman!
link to archive.is
link to politics.co.uk
link to openeurope.org.uk
link to politicalquarterly.blog
link to uk.businessinsider.com
Read the foreign affairs thread within this tweet
link to twitter.com
Never before have I seen blind anger like this on the streets of Paris
link to archive.is
The silence and lies behind Britain’s Brexit mess
link to archive.is
NEW: PM’s desperation now includes harassing local councils to promote her deal. Letter sent from Cabinet Office to local authorities asking them to “identify appropriate opportunities” for promotion of her plan and sharing of government tweets. At least one council is fuming.
link to twitter.com
If the Crown ignores the will of Parliament we will now have, at long last, the first genuine constitutional crisis of Brexit.
link to twitter.com
Brexit: contempt all round
link to eureferendum.com
David Attenborough: collapse of civilisation is on the horizon
link to archive.is
link to change.org
Sadly, this article lost all credibility when using the tram as a genuine mode of transport.
link to notjustsheepandrugby.blogspot.com
link to uksala.org
link to edition.cnn.com
WASHINGTON (AP) — The attorneys general of the District of Columbia and Maryland said Monday that they are moving forward with subpoenas for records in their case accusing President Donald Trump of profiting off the presidency.
link to apnews.com
Speaking off rubbish. The Herald going on about civil unrest and dark deaths because of green energy. Should they not be speaking about the unionists. The Tories.
Labour ‘winter of discontent’. Three day weeks and candles. The rubbish piled in the street. The dead not getting buried.
Thatcher. NI 20% unemployment. The Troubles. Unemployment 15% in Scotland. The only place it was under 10% was London S/E. Interest rates 15% + People losing their homes because they could not pay mortgages. Inflation up to 25%. The abuse of the miners. Civil unrest, riots and violence. The Poll tax.
Brexit. May and the Tories on the way out. The LibDem/Labour enablers. Sanctionig and starving people. Targeting vulnerable people.
I’m surprised to see the Daily Mail complaining about some of the privatised rail companies from England. It’s very revealing they have nothing to moan about regarding ScotRail.
I have to agree with others above ,that trains are better to London – when compared with the utter hell that is airports nowadays.
It wasn’t always so bad at airports though. In the heyday of properly run airlines and airports, I remember you could turn up to the airport with very little messing about. Their were a few shops. but the corridors were wide and free from all the shop clutter you have now. Similarly, all the staff were friendly, and the airlines all had plenty of legroom (which also meant their was never a shortage of overhead locker space) and that spaciousness on board made the atmosphere much, much more pleasant. It was an enjoyable experience.
No shoes off, no silly wee bag of ‘liquids’, no hassle trying to get though security, a friendly check in person, who was happy to help, with plenty of support staff. No unnecessarily aggressive unhelpful employees. no paying for tea and coffee or food on board. I could go on. Oh, and before somebody says, it was also expensive, I disagree. Just like right now, if you bought at short notice, then it was mad expensive, but if you bought a non changeable ticket a few weeks ahead, it was no more expensive than it is now.
The BA shuttle to London was exceptionally good (but only while they still had competition from British Midland). Same was true at heathrow. Now if you travel in BA business class in Europe, you might be shocked to find out, you have cramped seating, with the same crappy lack of legroom as Ryanair.
I remember when LHR Terminal four (where BA long haul used to go from before T5) was soooooo spacious inside. Now it is jam packed with shopping opportunities, to the extent that actually getting anywhere is difficult.
Either the sleeper (but it is very expensive, unless sharing a cabin with a complete stranger is your thing) or day train to London is now far superior. Their was a time when air travel was the best way to go, but now, like many here, I avoid it unless absolutely necessary. Flying nowadays (unless in First class) is truly the most god awful experience ever created by man. It is just truly awful nowadays.
Nah, for the money you would shell out to endure the airport nonsense, you can travel First class on the train, and as others point out, it takes you right into the centre of London. However, I reckon one of the best value trips is to Newcastle, fast, fast train, every hour right from Edinburgh into newcastle in an hour and a half.
British Nationalist activists have started flooding this and other pro-independence sites with their drivel, hoping to clog up the messages or reveal pro-independence people as bigots.
It’s best not to respond or give them any attention. Like with a needy, pushy child.
Remember when they wanted passport free travel throughout Europe Then the illegal wars and the barriers went up. Checking and rechecking everyone. All the restrictions in toiletries etc. Over the top surveillance.
The Tories are now fighting like rats in a sack. Never a dull moment. GE soon.
Anywhere but Heathrow,
What time do we expect the EU court results ?
Nana says:
4 December, 2018 at 7:17 am
If the Crown ignores the will of Parliament we will now have, at long last, the first genuine constitutional crisis of Brexit.
link to twitter.com
Steam coming out my ears. Is NOBODY listening???
(Not at you Nana
)
Could be wrong Wull2 but I have a 9am springing to mind…
Mmm, and as usual the troll thing attracts another few postings all posting about trolls and how people shouldn’t point them out or engage them.
So you get troll effect x 4.
Now all it needs is for someone to summarise the troll, and the thread, and then people to disagree with the summary, and others to suggest the summary should be put in a FAQ, then others to comment that the FAQ should be held externally, then others to say it should be posted every thread, then others to say …
… hey, we got ourselves a Convoy! 10-4 good buddy.
@Nana
Some standouts this morning Nana.
The FM is right. A referendum is the best way. Not the only way, but the best way.
The piece by Mr Lis in Politics UK isn’t far off the mark either, but the prize for winning the internet goes to Mr Attenborough. Sits right up there with a similar warning from the late Mr Hawking as I recall.
Advocate General of European Court rules that UK can withdraw its Article 50 notification to leave the EU unilaterally. UK would not need permission of other member states.
link to twitter.com
statement
link to twitter.com
Advocate General Campos Sánchez-Bordona proposes that the Court of Justice should declare that Article 50 TEU allows the unilateral revocation of the notification of the intention to withdraw from the EU
link to twitter.com
Thanks Breeks, back to bed for me for a few hours, its cold outside.
J Maugham says
Here’s what I understand to be the AG’s conclusion – exactly what we argued for.
link to twitter.com
@Nana
Phew!
It’s been difficult not saying it’s in the bag, but it did look as though it was in the abg but you don’t want to say it#s in the bag until it actually is in the bag.
Phew!
ECJ 90% opinion another step on the way.
@Nana
Beat me to it on the AG news Nana. Yer on a roll.
Alyn says
link to twitter.com
Andy says
link to twitter.com
Morning Macart
I’m going to need a lie down after that
Robert Louis disagree that Airlines back in the day were no more expensive than now if you bought in advance. The only way to get a cheap ticket was to turn up at the airport and go on a standby queue and hope that other folk had cancelled. I used to travel internationally extensively , once I remember I had to go on a course and had a choice of three venues, New York, London or Nice, fancied Nice but that course was booked up before I made enquiries, So Looked at London and New York, I actually flew to New York and stayed in the Waldorf Astoria cheaper than it would have cost me in a relatively not too expensive hotel in London, The price difference between the flights was around £30.
That was around the turn of the century, then Ryan Air changed everything, I once got a flight from Prestwick to Stockholm for 2 pence return, the guy sitting next to me paid £160 for his return.
Even by the time air departure taxes were added the total cost and this was before they started charging for check in and baggage was still cheaper than the Bus from the airport they use for Stockholm to the city. About ten years ago I used to fly several times a month in the summer with Ryanair , sometimes flying to Belgium twice a week and they were great, never had a delay or lost baggage. However if I was travelling to London today from Glasgow / Edinburgh , the train would be my first choice.
So.
Parliament votes to reverse brexit.
The immediate ‘justification’ for indyref2 is removed.
UKIP reawakens in England.
Maybes aye. Maybes no.
@Lenny Hartley
There used to be inclusive travel tickets, had to be a Saturday or weekend in between going out and returning.
The way was to overlap return tickets b ought in Scotland and Germany say, so that you could get the full benefit. They were quite cheap.
@Nana
Might as well have that lie down. I know it’s early, but perhaps just the one medicinal Tio Pepe and a large bar of chocolate.
Someone’s just lit the blue touch paper. Now if only the SC had the will to come to its ruling on the Continuity Bill before the vote on the 11th that would really be 5.4.3.2.1. Bourach. Mind you there is a reason for the delay, so… pfft. The next bit should be good regardless.
Here’s the press release
link to curia.europa.eu
Nana at 0821,
Thanks for link. This is excellent news. Thanks to all the Scottish politicians, especially, I believe Andy Wightman, who pursued this through the Scottish courts.
So, article 50 CAN be ended by the UK as and when it wants. So the liars of westminster can no longer claim that it’s either May the dictator’s deal or no deal.
Very, very good news.
@ Breeks.
” steam coming out of my ears, is nobody listening.
Me too. The sheer arrogance and ignorance is unbelievable.
The Sovereign people of Scotland said no to leaving the EU.
Scotland’s Parliament said no and Scotland’s MP’s said no, by majority.
The Crown ignored Scotland. What’s the difference.
Breaking news Article 50 can be irrevocably rescinded.
Sky News look like someone just cut them off at the knees.
After months of Non Reporting the case in question. The staff reporters dont have a clue about what’s just happened.
This is funny from that AG opinion:
“and does not involve an abusive practice”
LOL
@Macart
“one medicinal Tio Pepe and a large bar of chocolate”
I was going to have porridge, but I’m all for change
link to alynsmith.eu
Haud on a wee minute, this is interesting:
“he Advocate General interprets Article 50 TEU, having recourse, with regard to what is not expressly provided for in that article, to the relevant provisions of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties on which Article 50 TEU is based. Pursuant to Article 68 of that convention, http://www.curia.europa.eu notifications of withdrawal from an international treaty may be revoked at any time before they take effect.”
What’s interesting to me is the actual reference to the Convention, as it shows that that is important to the ECJ.
When you do the reading, all these conventions are interesting but you never know whether they exist in real time. Not this proves this one, at least, is.
WOO HOO! So much for T may’s statement that it is My deal or No deal!
things just got a lot more controllable.
Thankyou to those politicians who have had the courage of their convictions to see this through.
Not out of the woods yet, and I’m not sure how this will pan out for Indy ref 2. If there is a second EU ref then no-one ever again can deny Indy ref 2, especially not an Tory PM.
A second EU ref with a Remain decision is looking more likely.
Now we know, as thought, why Theresa and Nicola met yesterday – wonder what the 13 scottish Tray-tor Tories think now and would love to know what (t)Ruthless thinks!
To clarify that, I’m thinking (ahead) of the Treaty of Union.
Lenny Hartlery,
Yes we’ll have to disagree, because I used to fly very, very regularly, and recall how the fares compared quite clearly. In my opinion, airlines like Ryanair are the problem.
Steve Peers Professor of EU, Human Rights & World Trade Law, University of Essex is tweeting on specific points re the ruling
see here
link to twitter.com
Bbc TV Breakfast from Stirling this morning with smiley presenter telling us Nicola Sturgeon failed to convince local voters.
On Article 50 judgement will broadcasters tell us it was Scottish Indy supporting politicians who brought the case.
Jings, the whole of this thing is dynamite.
“The Advocate General emphasises that withdrawal from an international treaty, which is the reverse of a treaty-making power, is by definition a unilateral act of a State party and a manifestation of its sovereignty.
I’ll shut up now and just silently gloat.
Yes indy ref2
I’m on your line of thinking already! Nice one!
Yesindyref2 at 0854am,
Does that apply to ALL international treaties. Like the treaty of union of 1707?
Heh. News filtering through on the advice and media channels don’t know whether they’ve been punched, bored or countersunk.
So a sovereign state can behave unilaterally and withdraw from an International Treaty and WM has recently endorsed our Claim of Right. Hmmm.
Discussion about the judgement on BBC R4 at 8.40 suggests that there will most probably be a 2nd EU ref to rubber stamp a decision to revoke Art 50.
Game on!
ECJ Advocate General Campos Sánchez-Bordona recommends court should find UK CAN unilaterally revoke Article 50
Needless to say Nick Robinson sounded a tad deflated.
Headline news at 9.00 – Chris Grayling says he didn’t ask enough questions before allowing the change of timetable in Spring;
T May is preparing for the discussions on her deal or no deal in Parliament – the Eu Advocate has said that Britain can reverse the Art. 50 decision, but this advice is not legally binding. An ECJ ruling, usually is.
Weasel reporting.
Meg merrilees says:
4 December, 2018 at 8:55 am
Yes indy ref2
I’m on your line of thinking already! Nice one!
I’m there too, but rather than gloat, do not dwell on the revocation of Article 50 but the Constitutional legitimacy of doing it and the sovereign personality behind such legitimacy. By rights, this should give a Constitutionally Sovereign Scotland a sovereign veto over Westminster’s faux Parliamentary Sovereignty.
Scotland’s Remain mandate is Sovereign, whether Westminster likes it or not, and whether Holyrood likes it or not.
Robert Louis, maybe it was because I was based in Aberdeen and they hiked the prices but it used to cost circa £230 for a return to Gatwick twenty years ago, you could not get it cheaper buying in advance but maybe because I had to fly on an open return made the difference. Most of my flights were International (sic) but I did fly to London reguarly. At one point for a year after a big scare, i took the sleeper, now that was expensive, especially as you spend half the night on the return journey in the bar.
INDEPENDENT says:
4 December, 2018 at 8:46 am
Breaking news Article 50 can be irrevocably rescinded.
Sky News look like someone just cut them off at the knees.
After months of Non Reporting the case in question. The staff reporters dont have a clue about what’s just happened.
Ho Ho, it’s about to hit the fans, folks.
I need a popcorn break. Pringles anyone?
@Meg merrilees
Well, we’ve discussed the possibilities a bit, so it’s not too much of a surprise I guess
“Shiver me timbers” they’ll be saying in the HoC and the other place.
“Bye now and have a nice day”, says I.
@Breeks
I wasn’t thinking of Brexit
@yesindyref2
Winky thing
Meg merrilees says:
4 December, 2018 at 8:59 am
So a sovereign state can behave unilaterally and withdraw from an International Treaty and WM has recently endorsed our Claim of Right. Hmmm.
Aye, and 62% of a sovereign nation voted to remain in the EU.
It’s official – we now have a full-blown constitutional crisis.
Your move, Mrs May
Probably worth reminding folks. The AG news is an opinion. It’s advice. Not a ruling as yet, but it does show the route of travel.
@Robert Louis
As far as I understand it, any court ruling can be quoted as contributing to a precedent, and with the ECJ currently being the highest court of Scotland for the time being, it is interesting.
@Macart
Indeed, we’ll have to wait. But seems to me a better hasthag than #DissolveTheUnion is #WithdrawFromTheTreatyOfUnion.
I know – we should not count our chickens.
But even this opinion is an amazing achievement (and it will certainly put the cat among the pigeons). Not impossible, but it would be highly unusual if the ruling went against the AG opinion. If that did happen, appeals would inevitably follow.
This could drag on for months.
In the meantime, it will be hilarious watching the BritNat media tie themselves in knots, as they try to spin this in favour of Brexit.
Mmm, I really should go to bed been up all night tidying up after a job but hey, it’s one of those exciting things, frankly. Anyway, here’s a little light reading for anyone sick of counting sheep baaa baaa
link to treaties.un.org
@yesindyref2
S’about right.
Coupled with the outcome of the Continuity Bill case (and that outcome could fall either way) in the SC, I’d say it belt and braces the issue.
Over to Treeza at this point. Seems t’me, she has a bit of explaining to do to the UK’s populations and parliament. Should be good.
Really disappointed by the article in the National regarding NS today. Honestly, I despair. If London refuses to ‘allow’ a referendum, NS will go away meekly, and insist we need to wait until more people want independence. No fight in her. Just no fight at all. I don’t know whether to call it political naivety or cowardice. She talks tough, but simply WILL NOT take action.
Sorry, but I am now more than ever firmly of the opinion that we will not get independence whilst NS is leader of the SNP. I am truly disappointed at the way she has literally strung Scots along for over two years.
She kept saying that she would wait until the brexit deal was clear, and she clings to that continually. But, whilst that approach may have been relevant two years ago, events have changed. It is abundantly clear that neither we, the FM or even the Tory Government will ever know the final ‘deal’, so in my honest opinion, clinging to her stated policy is now simply absurd. But of course, it provides her with a reason to do nothing, and to never call a referendum.
Then to top it all, she is now running with the Pete wishart baloney of waiting for another election and then ‘asking’ for permission again.
Of course in the REAL world, London is never going to offer ‘approval’, when it is likely to lose. That much is pretty f*****g obvious. Scotland does not NEED permission, and NS coarrying on with this style of argument, is starting to look very disingenuous.
I despair, I really, really do. It’s just endless procrastination and obfuscation. No action. That is not leadership. No wonder Theresa May ignores her.
I know many here won’t like to hear all this, but it is how I now genuinely think, and I was a NS supporter at the beginning, went to the hydro event, and cheered along etc..
If NS doesn’t have the stomach to fight for Scottish independence, perhaps she should step aside and let somebody else who will. (and I should point out, I have held back on saying that for a very long time, so as not to help unionists, but I have really had quite enough).
THE CONTEMPT VOTE TODAY IN HoC
From the electorate’s pov, the first issue of the ‘contempt vote’ is, will democracy be upheld in the Hoc today, or will the govt., by bribes, blackmail and threats, succeed in rigging the vote.
Breeks – certainly not gloating. Just considering the next move.
seems to me T May is right, FOR HER preferred outcome when she says It’s her deal; or no deal and it is thus for any Brexiteer.
However, for Remain voters and everyone else, there is now a lit Exit sign alternative from this Mayhem ( pun intended) which will most probably need the endorsement of a second EU ref to democratically substantiate the revocation- and there is the Caveat that Art. 50 can only be revoked before the Withdrawal Bill is concluded, hence the urgency as that conclusion will take place following the Dec 11th vote.
Things just got a whole lot interesting for us and N. ireland – the Remain voting part of the UK. Only thinking about Scotland here:
We have restated our Sovereignty in WM UNOPPOSED, nay, WM has recently accepted that we are a sovereign country so as such we can withdraw from this International treaty of Article 50. However, we voted to remain part of the UK in 2014. The fun starts with a proposed second EU ref to democratically endorse Art. 50 withdrawal.
If that is allowed then a second Indy ref cannot be denied ever again.
If Brexit goes ahead, can we as a Sovereign nation say we are not leaving the EU ?
does that depend on our constitutional state within the UK at that time?
Is this what Joanna Cherry means when she says that she think Indy could come through another, non-referendum means?
So many new options. Nicola has played a blinder THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS and the whole face of this week of debating at WM just got a whole lot more optimistic. TV debate dead in the water.
I am whistling this morning and the sun is shining,
Reading about the ECJ ruling on the right to cancel Brexit I noticed that the EU’s chief law officer is called Hubert Legal. Made my day.
Robert Louis – anxiety + imagination = ignoring the facts and coming to the wrong conclusion. Plz come to your senses, you are so much better than this.
@Robert Louis
It depends on the actual importance on the ruling that this opinion hopefully precedes – and the ruling on the Continuity Bill perhaps.
I say we keep the pressure on, but for us not to be surprised if it’s all a front while waiting for these things to resolve. Salmond was “Real Politik”, Sturgeon is all Law, and seems to me, these last one or two years have been the years of Law.
Searched for Brexit on google with filter set to last hour.
World media jumping up and down on the legal statement.
A few passing mentions of revocation statement in UK msm appear on google. Isn’t in a single UK headline.
Biggest Brexit recent news, and UK msm plays it down. Says everything you need to know about UK media.
Never mind the shops running out of things after March 29th, they will be running out of popcorn today.
To live in a world where the every day currency is distorted facts, half-truths and outright lies, surely these Journos must carry their trade over into their personal lives.
Must be shit being them…
Worry not!
We are in a a win win win situation. UK politics is descending into chaos. Politics darn sarf could descend into complete idiocy and even violence. The case for the UK has been irrevocably damaged,the case for independence immeasurably and permanently strengthened.
Time to reveal our new campaign slogan – Better Together – with all our European friends
National’s got it, Herald’s got it, Scotsman’s got it, haven’t checked any others.
Robert Louis
Have patience.
We will win this.
If we had held Indy 2 by now and lost then we would be bound for a long time to come to the sinking EU – things really would be over for my generation and probably the next.
Look at the riots in France recently-in one way they have worked as the French gov has changed it’s mind on the fuel price but lives have been lost and people’s livelihoods ruined on the way. Don’t get me wrong I’m NOT suggesting that we need to resort to violent street protests to achieve our democracy but there has been a show of a strength of opinion which has convinced the Government to think again.
Is Scotland at that level of strength of opinion yet?
Look at the strength of feeling in Catalonia- are we openly at that level yet?
This year we have had the Indy marches which have been a fantastic start. The timetable for next year is already out, so clearly AUOB is in for the long haul and think we need another year.
I would love it if we could say we were independent today! It is coming, and we will be Independent.
A baby takes nine months to be formed and born. It can be born early but can struggle as a result, or die or go on to live a normal healthy life.
I don’t want to live in an independent Scotland that has been born too early; where 48% of the people still want to be in the status quo, where Ruth Davidson constantly argues for a second referendum to prove that we want to stay in the UK.
No I want to live in a country that will be proud, one and all, to be Scottish and Independent and we will achieve that.
Take heart and hang on!
@me @ 9:38
Now I see headlines appear. FT, Indpendent, Sun.
What it probably does highlight is the UK news rooms weren’t watching this at 8:00. They weren’t sitting on the edge of their seat, as they should have been. They have belatedly picked up on the significance from Twitter etc..
Thanks for the news, Nana. Pravdasound4 sounded somewhat miffed by the ECJ news this morning. It’s only an opinion, after all, not a ruling and no mention by Pantsonfire Robinson of dastardly Scottish origin of this vile legal wheeze.
Quick, get on batty Jilly Cooper to gush about dogs giving emotional support for our brave servicemen/women.
Job done for today: nothing to see here, plebs.
And don’t mention the S______d word.
New Panelbase base asking all the questions, lets hope its published and not a private poll!
Meg merrilees says::
4 December, 2018 at 9:32 am
“Nicola has played a blinder THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS..”
That she has, Meg. That she has.
I understand that some folk are getting impatient, but please don’t believe all the guff you read in the press or watch on the BBC. As far as I am aware, Nicola has conceded nothing and all options remain on the table.
The UK is creaking at the seams. Something is about to give and when it does, things will unravel fast IMO. For us, it’s just a matter of holding the line, not giving up and waiting patiently. As this has panned out, the more I am convinced that Nicola and her team have carefully thought this out and anticipated every WM move. This can now only end one way for the blundering Mrs May and her BritNat cronies:
Checkmate
It hasn’t happened yet, and it may not happen quickly enough for some folks, but it now looks inevitable. Waiting game.
Good time to republish this
RE: The Scottish Continuity Bill (SCB) court case.
Why is it taking so long? I profer my humble opinion.
The UK Supreme Court (SC) has been asked what, on the surface, looks like a very straightforward question; Is the Scottish Continuity Bill competent? You would think a simple Yes No would be in order here; but you’d be wrong. For to answer this question the SC must first grapple with the sticky question of Sovereignty. Specifically whom or what holds the Sovereign power in the UK.
When our Scottish Parliamentarians signed the Treaty Of Union in 1707, the Kingdom of England (KoE) assumed they had signed over their Sovereignty and have acted accordingly ever since, indeed all Scots Unionists aver this truth. However as the Kingdom of Scotland’s (KoS) Sovereignty rests with its people as asserted in the Declaration of Arbroath and subsequent restatements in the various Claim of Right Acts over the years, this was not true. The KoE Sovereignty has always rested with the the Monarch, sometimes it is asserted that it has been delegated to Parliament and whether or not this is still the case given the dissolution of the English parliament in 1707, it makes no difference to the essence of the case. So we have a situation where there are in fact two Sovereign powers in the UK. So how is this resolved? Quite easily actually. At Westminster there are 59 Scots MPs representing KoS Sovereignty (SS) and the balance of MPs represent KoE Sovereignty (ES) so when votes are taken it needs to consider this fact. Acts of Westminster are only lawful when both Sovereignties align. If there is disagreement then either one or other compromises or the Act fails. If ES overrides SS then that is a descision which could and would #DissolveTheUnion, no Ifs no buts. The only exceptions to this would be the Powers held by Holyrood and the procedural trickery of EVEL which prima facie allow the exercise of separate Sovereignty for issues directly pertaining to the domestic agendas of the respective Kingdoms. Even here, there is an issue, as reductions in budgets in purely KoE expenditure have been used to justify reductions in the KoS Block Grant.
Let’s apply this logic to the SCB case.
The Scotland Act 1998 delegated powers to the Scottish Parliament and it did so with the approval of both ES and SS at Westminster.
The Scottish Parliament passed its SCB but prior to achieving Royal assent it was challenged by Westminster at the SC. Westminster subsequently passed its UK EU Withdrawal Bill (EUWB) which became an Act having received Royal assent.
There are now two conflicting statutes, what does the SC do?
Well if you follow the logic in regards to Sovereignty the answer is straight forward.
If the EUWB obtained approval of both SS and ES then the SCB is unlawful, as the powers that were legally delegated are legally removed, otherwise the SCB is lawful. In this regard then Westminster holds the supreme power.
With respect to this case there is no need to answer the question of the legitimacy or status of Holyrood. However the elegance of the solution puts on notice that both Kingdoms hold an effective veto over any Act which affects the whole of the UK as opposed to one which affects only one of its singular parts.
It’s taking so long because they are desperately trying to find an elegant alternative and there isn’t one.
This is a massive blow to the cushy Westminster cabal where the bobsy twins of Tory and Labour take muggins turns at power in a faustian pact to deceive the people into believing they have a choice. Now with SS correctly established in Westminster it is possible for the Scottish MPs to completely disrupt proceedings and prevent any and all business being done.
Throw into the mix then the A50 case due at the European Supreme Court (ECJ) next week, when it is likely that the ECJ will agree with Lord Kerr’s assertion that A50 is revocable. The UK has then a clear choice with full knowledge of the consequences, revoke A50 and remain or brexit and #DissolveTheUnion, it cannot have both.
In the event that either party is unhappy with the solution, they can always appeal to the ECJ. ?????
@galamcennalath
They probably presumed 9am meant 9am GMT as everything revolves around Greenwich
@ Meg Merilees.
It was, and still is an imperative that Scot Gov keeps its powder dry. That it is seen to do everything in its power to resolve within the UK Constitution the differences between the only 2 Partner Sovereign states. The Acts of Union, both English and Scots, passed to Westminster a legal obligation to uphold the Treaty of Union. It doesn’t matter how often Westminster has broken or abused that obligation, what matters is when we the People of Scotland decide to hold them to account for their actions.
The Withdrawal Bill was a clear and unequivocal breach of the Treaty of Union. However, the withdrawal has not yet come in to force, though the crown is in clear breach of its obligation under Scots Constitunional law.
Yesindyref2 @8:40am
“Haud on a wee Minute….”
Can you link to this information below this quote please
@Kangaroo
From Nana’s link:
link to curia.europa.eu
Seen a tweet saying that the Brexit negotiations could take 5 to 10 years so that’s how long independence vote could need to wait.
Not sure of the logic of this, why sit through 5 – 10 years of negotiation then vote to go into another few years of negotiation when we disagree with the initial outcome. Seems more sensible to start these negotiations as soon as possible, I don’t want to be waiting another 15 years to see what Scotland’s future is (I suspect I’ll be gone by then).
Also after years of negotiation, I’m not sure you could persuade the majority to vote for more. Going down this route I cannot see another indyref for at least 30 years.
Radio 5 folk call in spitting feathers that there might be a 2nd referendum on EU and then Nicky Campbell broke the ECJ news.
Waaahhhaa! Jings!
Popcorn supply will run short.
Indyref2
I have read that document now. I disagree with your conclusion, which I may have misread.
The AG opinion is that the A50 notification can be withdrawn unilaterally by the member state based on its constitutional requirements.
So UK is member state and therefore UK needs to make decision.
The sovereignty reference is a Furphy IMHO as it merely confirms the first part of the AGs opinion.
It is , as you have correctly identified, that the Claim of Right etc is critical to getting the ECJ to recognise Scottish Sovereignty. So now IMHO Scotland can take a case to the ECJ to be the Continuing Member State if the UK, as decided by Westminster, that it wants to continue with Withdrawal.
This compounds Westminster’s problem as identified in my post at 10:01am above.
Pass me more chocolate.
Interesting development in Brussels.
Kangaroo says:
4 December, 2018 at 10:01 am
Throw into the mix then the A50 case due at the European Supreme Court (ECJ) next week, when it is likely that the ECJ will agree with Lord Kerr’s assertion that A50 is revocable. The UK has then a clear choice with full knowledge of the consequences, revoke A50 and remain or brexit and #DissolveTheUnion, it cannot have both.
Checkmate.
Take a step back and look at “Collie’s” real aim.
It’s not stirring up the s**t with individual people like BDDT, Dr Jim (Hola senor..!) or others under the quise of “hating” the English.
It’s more to do with getting the reputation of WOS trashed. He’s trying to goad WOS, for it to be seen as unreliable and “racist”; undermine the reputation for the quality of the journalism and quality of the commentators then you effectively reduce the influence and impact on the readership at large.
Same goes for ALL the other “trolls” and troublemakers.
Stay cool and think of the thousands of readers who don’t post but do read what we say/do.
So IF there is to be a 2nd EU-Ref then Scotland’s rights must be placed front and centre. The decision to Brexit can be carried only, as the FM asked first time round, when ALL FOUR of the UK’s constituent parts agree.
Failing that then each of the UK’s constituent parts should be allowed to have their individual wishes respected in the vote outcome (i.e. as we presently see with Gibraltar, N.I., England and Wales’ respective Brexit wishes being accommodated). Scotland’s wishes should be respected too.
If WM refuse to have a 2nd EU-Ref then there is nothing to stop Scotland having a 2nd Ref with the options (on a transferable basis):
Rank your preferred option with 1,2,3:
Scotland should leave the UK and Remain with the EU. 1
Scotland should leave the EU and Remain with the UK. 3
Scotland should leave both the UK and the EU. 2
Kangaroo says:
4 December, 2018 at 10:41 am
Indyref2
I have read that document now. I disagree with your conclusion, which I may have misread.
The AG opinion is that the A50 notification can be withdrawn unilaterally by the member state based on its constitutional requirements.
So UK is member state and therefore UK needs to make decision…
Yes, but the ruling means the sovereignty of Westminster’s Parliament is distinct from and superior to the will of the incumbent Government, and that should lead directly/indirectly on to a review in strict Constitutional terms of what legitimacy there is to Westminster’s Parliamentary Sovereignty, which has already conceded to the Claim of Right principle and Scottish popular Sovereignty.
Westminster can overrule Theresa’s Government over Article 50, but when it all shakes out, I think Scotland should theoretically walk out the mess with a sovereign veto from the Scottish people that the UK cannot leave the EU without Scotland’s consent, which is consent they do not have.
Rather than English votes having the power to drag Scotland out, Scottish votes will now have the power to bind England in, or, if leave they must, they exit the Union and the UK ceases to exist.
It’s kinda like a Scottish Backstop,… do what you like Westminster, but whatever you do must be compatible with Scotland’s Sovereign integrity. It doesn’t matter that Brexit was a UK vote, Brexit compromises Scotland’s Sovereign will to remain. Scotland has a veto, England must stay in the EU or end the Union to leave.
….I think.
Luigi @10:51am
How do you get the smiley faces to appear. Mine revert to ?????
Kangaroo says:
4 December, 2018 at 11:05 am
Luigi @10:51am
How do you get the smiley faces to appear. Mine revert to ?????
Try a full stop. then space, followed by :, followed by )
.
Seems ElGordo is riled. poor wee mite. How I got to Wales is none of your business.
Weirdest troll to be fair.
Proud Cybernat says:
There is a third option which has been effectively clarified today….
Scotland should remain in both the UK and the EU
… not one for us Wingers, but a lot of 2014 NOs would welcome it.
I suspect what is most likely to happen is that the four permutations get whittled down one by one by events at WM. Is the fourth one I highlight invalid if WM don’t call the ref? The will of the Scottish people has nothing to do with WM, though.
Oh My! The fans is full blast and the brown stuff is flying far and wide this morning. Lots of Brexiteers waking to the bad news are slowly getting over the initial shock and now spitting blood, complaining the A50 “opinon” is yet another example of EU interference (how dare they!). It has also been noted that it was the bloody scots getting up to their tricks again.
One thing now is for sure: TM’s “deal is now dead in the water. There is no way that remainer MPs will support it if there’s a chance it can be revoked.
Breeks @ 11:04am
I think I said that in my post of 10:01am, which has been my position for a long time.
However I now think it is possible for Scotland to take a case to the EU that we are the Continuing Member state and so we stay in both the EU and UK in accordance with our votes of 2014 and 2016.
This is why it is very important that we recognise the significance of using the GBP as per the Growth Commission Report. Scotland therefore is in the position of NOT having moved in any legal or substantive way from the full membership position of the UK as a member state.
@me
I meant ‘fourth option’
Been away for a few days and not caught up yet so maybe “Brexit Divorce” has already been linked to. Fair cheers you up.
Comedy short 2 mins:
link to youtube.com
galamcennalath says:
4 December, 2018 at 11:13 am
Proud Cybernat says:
Scotland should leave …
There is a third option which has been effectively clarified today….
Scotland should remain in both the UK and the EU
… not one for us Wingers, but a lot of 2014 NOs would welcome it.
I want independence when the people of Scotland are ready for it. No sooner, no later.
Imagine if May’s withdrawal bill gets defeated by a margin from Scots MPs, perhaps even on a second attempt in WM.
Then, the most straightforward and common sense action is for WM to vote to revoke A50 (an option instigated by Scots) to avoid disaster.
The best April Fool Scotland could ever deliver to England
Galamcennalath
If they vote either for Mays deal or no-deal and Scotland gets to be the continuing member state, that would be a great outcome for Scotland.
Or as you say vote to remain. A win again.
. ????:,)
Now how does Westminster roll everything back to remaining in the EU without the leave voters noticing the First Minister of Scotland is behind the whole idea, because if they realise it was her idea and plan all along (after the demonisation of all things Scotlandy and First Ministery) they’re heads will blow up
They (Westminster) can’t just admit they were all wrong and can’t deliver what the leavers thought they voted for and they’ve probably sent the bus back so they’d need a new bus with another slogan (It wasn’t Nicola Sturgeon’s idea honest) that would fit on a bus
Lots of options now so is Westminster prepared to reverse and be honest with folk or are their jobs more important than 65 million people
Yeah you’re right, the jobs thing, they’ll still make an arse of a simple way out
Where’s the BritNats’ favourite constitutional expert, Prof. Tomkins, when you need a bit of light entertainment?
I would so love to hear his take on today’s legal opinion on A50.
@Capella
Thanks. These guys are good. I hadn’t seen them before ….
“An Englishman Plays Risk”
link to youtube.com
As the pressure on Theresa May and her handlers increases by the hour, or so it seems, something has got to give, and quite imminently. But what? And will we see anything new, anything that has been kept from our view?
One thing is very clear. When it comes to the Union, Mrs May and the entire Tory Party are 100% Remainers.
Above all else, they want to REMAIN IN POWER.
They also want the Establishment to REMAIN IN CONTROL.
They want to REMAIN free to rob Scotland blind.
They want Scotland to REMAIN SUPPRESSED, EXPLOITED & ABUSED.
They want the Ruling Class system to REMAIN.
They want AUSTERITY TO REMAIN IN PERPETUITY.
They want the Gravy Train to REMAIN for all Unionist MP’s.
They want to REMAIN arrogant, superior, contemptuous, greedy, uncaring, racist, xenophobic, privileged and entitled.
They want everything they’ve stolen from the colonies of the British Empire to REMAIN in the Establishment.
They want the ability to REMAIN able to move all their money offshore and to pay no UK tax while REMAINING in the UK.
Yep. The Tories are REMAINERS through and through.
Seems to me – reading all other comments as well – the UK can only leave the EU when both sovereign signatories to the Treaty of Union agree to the UK leaving the EU.
Currently one wants to leave and one wants to remain. One cannot be forced to do the what the other wants or it becomes a dictatorship not a partnership.
This judgment this morning has informed us that Art. 50 can be reversed before the Withdrawal Bill is concluded.
Currently WM is discussing who is in charge of the UK – is Parliament Sovereign or is the Party in Government Sovereign. Well, we keep being told that Parliament is Sovereign therefore T May and the Tories might be in for a shock.
If we establish that Parliament is Sovereign then we look at the treaties that this Sovereign Parliament has signed and is bound by, then you cannot escape the fact that the WM Parliament has agreed that the Claim of Right stands and Scotland is Sovereign people.
The Treaty of Union says that the WM Parliament can normally legislate for matters concerning most of the UK except those matters which affect the Private Utility of the Scots – can’t remember the exact words – in other words, they cannot boss us about.
We now have the situation where a WM recognised Sovereign nation, who happens to be the other signatory to the International Treaty of Union has said stop – we disagree, we want to Remain. You go if you want to but we are staying.
So it’s Preciousss Union or Brexit Theresa but not both and we have to sort out the Constitutional mess that exists in the UK.
Time is still critical. – if, God forbid, the Withdrawal Bill creeps through next week then it’s Indy ref game on.
Hopefully this announcement this morning has bought time for everyone and that good will come of it.
———–
Luigi:
I think a second EU ref is inevitable to gain a Remain vote. If it has a large majority for Remain, it might establish some sort of democratic decision and possibly silence those who voted to Leave. We are led to believe that those people who work in Japanese car factories in Britain are now very worried that their jobs might disappear after the Japanese Prime Minister told T May they would have to seriously consider pulling their factories out of the UK. Not sure these same folk would vote Leave given a second chance.
st joanna de cherry there, telling EBC how it is
superb, bravo, encore
To Westminster, Scotland is like having a row of Cash Machines/ATM’s in the Cabinet room at 10 Downing Street which are replenished hourly by the Scottish Oil Industry.
Shame it’ll be closing down soon.
Just for the record;
our First Minister is in Poland today dealing with a real issue, as part of the day job.
She is attending and speaking at the UN International Conference on Climate Change – the one where David Attenborough’s face and words were plastered all over the National news yesterday.
Will we get to hear what she has to say? Doubt it.
The Tories – hate your neighbour but never forget to say grace.
The world’s worst.
Anyone know when we get the actual judgement as opposed to the AG’s opinion? I really thought today was the day, but obviously not.
@shiny
A couple of weeks at the most till the full judgement is issued.
What will the government have to offer you to get behind their deal, asks Adam Boulton of Allyson Thewlis SNP not realising you can’t bribe the SNP with VOWS and money but nevertheless Boulton advocating the usual corrupt Westminster chequebook democracy that bought the DUP
@shinty.
The EU, AG, has never given his view at this stage of a proceeding and been wrong.
His statement is basically the result pending full legal text of that judgement.
Nicola Sturgeon once again recieving British Nazionalist dogs abuse for being at the climate change conference with other world leaders and VIPs on this matter because Scotland IS a world leader in this field
What the British Nazionalists don’t seem to get is you have to be invited to these turnouts, you don’t just show up and make speeches, the rest of the world recognises Scotland’s FM as an important voice in these matters, it’s only in the UK they don’t want to recognise Scotland, the rest of the planet rather likes us, indeed quite a lot
Kangaroo says:
4 December, 2018 at 11:14 am
Breeks @ 11:04am
I think I said that in my post of 10:01am, which has been my position for a long time.
However I now think it is possible for Scotland to take a case to the EU that we are the Continuing Member state and so we stay in both the EU and UK in accordance with our votes of 2014 and 2016.
This is why it is very important that we recognise the significance of using the GBP as per the Growth Commission Report. Scotland therefore is in the position of NOT having moved in any legal or substantive way from the full membership position of the UK as a member state.
Agreed. Scotland has not initiated the Constitutional change to the UK’s circumstances, and recognised as a sovereign entity, neither Westminster nor Brussels can overrule that Sovereignty. Westminster cannot drag us out, and Brussels cannot expel us if we don’t want to leave. England on the other hand has chosen to leave, and thereby, through their own actions have rendered the Union with Scotland untenable.
England and Wales can choose to leave the EU as is their sovereign prerogative, but they cannot overrule Scotland’s equally Sovereign prerogative to remain.
But the million dollar question, when Scottish Sovereignty determines one thing, and English Sovereignty determines something else, then at some point or other, the Union has already ceased to exist.
We would seem to be looking retrospectively towards a technical breach of the Union which has already occurred, and was instigated by party or parties which does not include Scotland.
In terms JK Rowling might understand, it would seem Westminster has inadvertently given Scotland a sock.
Kangaroo & geeo,
Thanks for that, I was a wee bit afraid we were all jumping the gun.
@Breeks
{In terms JK Rowling might understand, it would seem Westminster has inadvertently given Scotland a sock.}
Aye but there’s still a few things left to do get out of the infamous UK Hotel California.
Fingers X’d for the Continuity Bill case.
@grafmidgehunter10.58am.
‘Collie’ is in moderation, so his hate filled bile shall no longer be appearing on wings.
I reported 3 of his posts last night, and Stu has taken the appropriate action.
Beats the hell out of allowing these types to ruin threads, and sends out a message such bilious hate will not be tolerated.
I also got Blair Paterson’s anti english bigoted rant deleted, again, by simply reporting it.
2 examples of how easy it is to help clean up wings and protect our reputation from nasty wee oiks seeking to do us harm.
I will not hesitate to continue reporting posts which are not acceptable.
I picture these people hitting ‘post’ and seeing the words “your comment is awaiting moderation” appearing, and them realising their hate filled bigoted rant is not ever going to be read by anyone on here.
THAT makes me happy.
Breeks @12:15pm
IMHO there is no technical breach
a) in the case of UK Remains, or
b) if Scotland can be the continuing member state. Which is now possible IMHO.
Otherwise there is a massive breach in the Union.
So we can be in both UK and EU.
The Continuity Bill judgement will clarify the status of Sovereignty within the UK. This will be the defining moment for the Union. I don’t think the English are going to like the outcome.
Kangaroo and Breeks
Sinn Fein recognises the significance of what has been achieved this morning by Scotland and they commented as much last week ( there may be some but i’m not aware of remarks this am yet).
N. Ireland voted to remain as did Scotland and Gibraltar.
Let’s leave Gibraltar out of this just now.
If we are able to Remain, so can N. Ireland. Let England and Wales – if it is daft enough- Leave. No Irish backstop but I don’t think the DUP will be happy and the OO might get a bit miffed. Border at Carlisle and Berwick – we can handle that. After all there is this modern technology stuff that T May kept talking about.
@ Galamcennalath – bright comics from Ireland are a great tonic. To see oorsels as ithers see us, indeed.
Dr Jim says:
There is one obvious way out. Emergency legislation to dissolve the Union. Then Scottish MPs won’t be present for the vote!
Astinishingly, BBC r4 News at one reporting that the judgement from the EU has come from the Blind Side!!!!!
Exactly who is being blind here?
Some thoughts… in no particular order.
The English electorate are now – roughly – 50/50 over Brexit, and thanks to the pesky Scottish MSP’s – they now have the 3rd option – to Cancel Brexit – firmly on the table. I really wouldn’t want to be an English MP at the moment. Talk about divide and conquer.
And isn’t it marked, that this was primarily driven by pesky Scottish MSP’s. The power it invokes is so much more direct and applicable than a Peoples Vote, so it kind of makes the PV look a bit convoluted, more of a time burning distraction, and a way of tying up the IndyScot’s and wasting their energy.
This current legal win, how pragmatic and sensible. I think it will play very well with our former No Voters.
Re concerns about Nicola Sturgeons tactics. I would share them, if it wasn’t for the fact that her MP’s raised Scotland’s Claim of Right in WM recently. I think that is going to be pivotal very soon.
I do not think Nicola Sturgeon is speaking to me, or any of the other Yes voters at the moment. Our loyalty and votes are in the bag. I really think her pitch just now is very firmly aimed at our former No voters. And I think she is playing a blinder.
So, going back to the roots of Brexit, and the motive for it.
Centuries of stealing from continents, stashed away by our ruling elites, into Off Shore tax free accounts. And a determination by the ruling elites, not to be identified and not to be subject to the EU’s imminent new Tax Laws.
And Scotland’s natural resources to pay for the expensive upheaval, and keep them in the style to which they are accustomed.
The selling off of National assets – like Scottish Water, Scottish NHS, etc, as sweeties and baubles for the the willing helpers.
I think of it like this,
A Mountain of Wealth
A Building full of Cash and valuables
A Room with the petty cash box
Nothing about Brexit makes any sense, until it is looked at through the Tax Legislation lens, and then the whole construct makes sense.
Today’s ECJ guidance/ruling, has now ruined the entire Brexshit construct. We can just stop being so silly and cancel it. Wow. No wonder they fought tooth and nail to prevent it going to court.
Of course, unless the elite have actually managed to negotiate a secret deal to protect their tax free asses, then there is no way they can allow this. They have put the nations eggs into the basket… and for what it is worth, I don’t think the EU has blinked in any way, and they are now reaping the benefits of all the jobs and industries coming their way.
So what happens now? They cannot hold a meaningful vote on Brexshit, in WM, without option 3 – Cancel Brexshit, being one of the options they can vote for. I suspect we’re going to hear a lot of ‘respect the will of the people’ bollocks soon, along with a renewed call for a PV.
There’s very little time for a PV, and with Labour either not on board, or split down the middle, in addition to the terms of it being unclear – Soft, Hard, Cancel? – it is likely to muddy the waters even further. (Call me cynical, I rather think that’s what the powers that be, want from it.) And once again, no protection for Scotland’s vote to be honoured.
So, if in the near future, our Scottish Parliament votes to Cancel Brexit, by majority, and if in the HoC’s meaningful vote, our Scottish MP’s (perhaps, even including the Libdems and some of the Labour MPs) vote to cancel Brexshit, and if its not on the ballot, walk out en mass. How would that play out. One thing is for sure, for the English constituents, desperate to be represented, and remain in the EU, they will not be happy bunnies if their own MP’s are not seen to be just as committed.
And then it comes down to the fact that the terms of Brexshit being negotiated, break the terms of the Treaty of Union…
Anyway, just some thoughts. Interesting the Riots in France don’t you think, over fuel price rises. You can bet that the rest of the EU is fully aware of the value of Scotland oil and gas reserves just now. Wonder who they would rather deal with re that in the future, sensible Scots, or the arrogant Brexshiteers.
I find it interesting that here on wings if anyone says anything bad about English people they are castigated severely with foul language included.
There is no point trying to make out that it’s not the fault of English people that we have this Brexit mess, no point trying to say, it’s the government, the fact is it is English people a majority of them that voted for Brexit and the government are carrying out their wishes, yes there were lies included in the leave campaign but the “we hate foreigners and want them out ” was no lie ,it was up there on the front page, on people lips, I was shocked by it when speaking to English people at the time.
What English people are doing in this Brexit facade is not as bad as what they have been doing to Scotland and its people for very much longer, so I will stand against you people on here who are saying it’s nothing to do with English people it’s all to do with their government.
Come away and debate it with me, I’m ready.
I don’t hate English people I don’t hate England but I do hate what they have and are doing to Scotland, they are doing it with open eyes they don’t care either, no point saying English people in Scotland have no interest in whether Scotland is independent or not because that is a lie too, hundreds of thousands of them voted in 2014 to stop Scottish independence happening, there is documented proof that if English people living in Scotland had not voted against Scottish independence we would now be independent, they behave like colonists behave.
I don’t want English people being able to vote for their country England ,to continue controlling Scotland it matters not where they live, they should not in any circumstances be able to vote for their country to continue controlling my country.
If they claim to be English Scots then we should accept that but only if they meet passport regulations which say they either have to have been born here or have a parent who was born here.
That’s the rules England apply to people so we should apply those rules to English people here in Scotland.
That’s not racism that’s not hating English people it is simply applying existing rules about nationality .
It is not normal for an occupying nations people to have a vote on the independence of another nation ,it is wrong for you to say it’s normal because it is not.
Definition of deception. 1a : the act of causing someone to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid
Source Merriam Webster.
Should publications which use deception be allowed to call themselves ‘NEWS papers’? Perhaps a LARGE disclaimer ‘For Entertainment Purposes Only’ would help??
I note that all on here who complain about the media stopping all the things about the SNP and Scotland being heard and their points of view being silenced have emulated them by having Collie silenced the whole point of independence is surely everyone having their say whether you like it or not ???
Blair Paterson , there is a huge difference ‘twixt silencing a legitimate comment and silencing a violent threatening comment.
Free speech without sense , consideration nor rational thought is to be avoided and foolish abuse condemned.
@Dorothy Devine
Absolutely correct, there is no place for any voice that threatens violence against others because they disagree.
The uttering of threats of violence is not “free speech” but intimidation of those that disagree in order that they be silenced.
I’d say the ECJ ruling is why the UKSC are delaying the ruling on the Continuity Bill, they don’t like having judgements challenged in the ECJ – not from a parochial point of view, though that too, but because it takes (usually) a long time.
So there’s likely to be a week or two wait for that too, until the official ruling is in, though the UKSC might come up with a provisional one based on the AG opinion (seems to me).
Meant to say, the wording of that opinion could have almost been written by any Winger – I wonder if they read Wings?
Dorothy Devine….but it’s likely collie and Blair started off here on wings just giving an opinion and were then saturated with abusive and threatening comments and in response did the same.
There are a few bully types on here that go over the top and it’s mighty tempting to retaliate up a notch .
If someone says something you really don’t like you should respond with a reasoned reply, if you are unable to do so , just don’t reply…it’s not compulsory.
Everyone deserves a chance to say what they think.
I really really do want to hear from the good the bad and the ugly it’s the only way to get balance
@Terence callachan
The only opinions that you appear interested in are those that support your claim that exclusing English born from voting is right.
You’re not in the least interested in balance.
One shambles after another
Who would have thought that Brit MP’s don’t like being treated with contempt. Lol.
What goes around …….
@Blair Paterson.
Collie sealed his own fate when he threatened physical violence on others.
I reported him.
3 times in fact.
I also got your anti english bigoted rant removed.
You keep posting such garbage and i shall keep reporting it.
Solution ?
Stop posting bigoted guff, simple.
I’ll say this once.
How any decent human being living in Scotland in the past few years voted for any of those Tory fuckwit dumbdowned sockpuppetted dummy wannabe pricks and put them into the UK parliament should hang their heads in shame. Utterly disgusting bunch of slackjawed muppet wankers the lot of them.
5 years is the same amount of time as naturalized citizenship in Ireland. People who are not Irish citizens are not allowed to vote in referenda or for the presidency. British citizens are allowed to vote in elections to the Dail. Other European citizens are only allowed to vote in local or European elections.
The English born posters on this thread would be entitled to vote under a five year residency rule. Restrictions by residency are perfectly acceptable in the EU. No country in the EU allows people who aren’t citizens to vote in national elections. The current setup in Scotland is bonkers.
Incidentally, I would vociforously defend the right of English born people to vote no provided they met a residency requirement as they are defacto Scottish citizens.
Just been watching Sky News from Edinburgh and they were interviewing 2 panels re brexit. I’ve never seen so much bias in a tv program. There was one Scot out of 8 on the panels. Then the last person interviewed was an Aslef train driver who was so Snp baad you wouldnt believe. This is what Scotland are going to be up against in the future.