Some very brief thoughts on RISE
Posted on
January 07, 2016 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
(And the rest of the “pro-indy left”.)
If you’re primarily or solely contesting regional seats, and you’re chiefly (as seems to be the case) targeting people who are going to use their first vote for the SNP, “Vote for us so that we can provide strong opposition to the SNP” is a pretty weird pitch.
You’re basically asking people to use their second vote to cancel out their first. And that’s quite a tough angle to be trying to sell them. Just saying, like.
Here’s my thoughts on RISE…
…….
Neat!
SNP/SNP end of!
After Indy then anything goes, until then we need a single purpose.
Logic fail by RISE? Color me shocked.
I get the feeling they just cannae be bothered going after the real low hanging fruit, the labour rump.
The danger is of course that they’ll simply bleed away nationalist votes without gaining any seats, and at present that is a very real danger. OTOH who else will keep the SNP ‘honest’ and on message?
If they get too comfortable in power they may well start to back-pedal on both independence and socialism, they’re only human after all. The ‘Labour’ Party were socialists once, difficult though that may be to believe.
SNP X 2
Nought else required.
Their whole pitch is based on a false premise. We can’t know the result of the constituency vote therefore we can’t assume an SNP win.
Surely there has been enough debunking of this stuff by yourself and Scot goes pop for most people to realise the flaws.
Get independence first then vote for what you believe in.
The best vehicle for independence is the SNP.
it’s been startling to watch the pro-indy left use what’s a constituency strategy for a list vote.
only sheridan foresaw and overcame the dichotomy; pity he’s so pro-sheridan, really.
And your alternative proposal for establishing a radical left prescence in Holyrood is…..
“And your alternative proposal for establishing a radical left prescence in Holyrood is…..”
My proposal is that if the radical left wants to be elected, it should use more persuasive lines.
SNP X 2 will do the trick.
vote for them to replace the present unionist opposition,
personally, I think the monster raving loony party could do a better job than kez and co. id much rather see colin fox sitting in holyrood than Tomkins. that’s a no brainer, even if you cant see it rev. Just saying like….
I once gave my second vote to Tommy Sheridan which was as it turned out at the time not a wise move. So this time it will be SNP/SNP because I do not trust these people and as you say what they are suggesting cancels out my first vote.
What they are also saying is that SNP will remain in power as you can’t oppose the SNP if they are the opposition.
Strange. But I like the concept of having the two highest majority parties as pro-indy or 3 if we include Greens. Dont know much about Rise so not sure who’s best for the job.
Effective opposition is important and dowm the line in a post-Labour world non-SNP fans will think ‘well, there’s no point in voting Labour cause they stand no chance what other options are there?’ They will look for an alternative. And if they end up liking said party and find they are pro-indy then all the better.
It’s weird especially because they don’t really focus on things like a stronger land reform programme or opposing NATO membership or anything – kind of an “SNP Plus” position – but rather “we’re indy but not BIG indy so vote for us cos we’re not the SNP.” I’ve seen about about ten times as much from RISE saying why it’s vital to democracy and independence not to waste votes on the one party capable of delivering a second referendum than I’ve seen of their policy platform. Then again, I only read Bella once every week or two, so maybe I miss the reality-based stuff.
So the pitches then for this election are #SNP, #SNPBad and #SNPNotSNP. What’s a guy like me to do?
Don’t know why the pro indy folk at RISE dind’t just join the SNP and swing it further to the left from the inside. A bit like Blairites did with Old Labour but in the opposite direction.
For me, it’s SNP/SNP but i would suggest that if there were to be any chance of other pro independence parties getting in on the list vote then the Greens, Rise, Solidarity etc should come to some agreement on which constituencies they should stand and which they should concede
Their whole pitch is based on a false premise. We can’t know the result of the constituency vote therefore we can’t assume an SNP win.
nothing in the future is certain….agreed, but by the same logic, murphy was correct to state that labour would hold ever seat in the ge. the reason why myself, and everyone else, thought he was deluded is because we don’t deal in absolutes. we deal in probabilities. So while we cant be certain, if you wish, you can believe that ruth Davidson is going to lead a tory fight back in Scotland, and will be the next first minister next may, as you say, we cant be certain, but I still think you are probably deluded
SNP x 2!
By the way, no National for sale anywhere in the whole of Silverburn this morning!
Not sure why everyone is going on about RISE when the link provided is for a Common Weal candidate?
“Not sure why everyone is going on about RISE when the link provided is for a Common Weal candidate?”
Because the piece says it’s about the whole of the pro-indy left. I’m pretty sure the Common Weal isn’t a party.
There is a big picture. – Independence.
All Independence supporting parties must see that the ONLY party which can deliver this is the SNP.
Campaigning in May for a few votes for Rise or SSP will only dilute the chances for independence. As others have said, after independence let a thousand flowers bloom, meanwhile keep your eyes on the prize.
SNP/SNP
I do not trust these people
possibly not but the point is to replace the unionists with these people
I may not trust tommy Sheridan very much, but I trust him far more than jacky baillie
tommy’s heart is in the right place, jacky baillies brain isnt
I still think wings should stand candidates on the list and call ourselves
…..
SNP2
It’s simple. If RISE say “Vote for us because we’re good and have these (x x x x) policies, so please give us you vote on the list”, that’s honest and fair competition.
If they say “a vote on the list for the SNP is wasted”, then that’s dishonest and who on earth would vote for a liar?
@thoughtsofascot
Exactly. If they want to be a presence / opposition they should target the shambles that is a tired, weak and confused Labour Scotland Branch.
By doing that however I am guessing their column inches and air time will drastically diminish as that does not fit with the CorpMedia strategy for Labour Scotland Branch which is palliative care to nurse them over the line to some seats.
It has to be SNP X2 for me at least.
The primary target is to ensure an independence supporting Party in power,which is and always will be the SNP.
Normal politics can resume after we have achieved our aims.
Interestingly ennugh, I do not want to destroy Labour ,but I do want to force change upon it. It has to radically change to earn my support ever again.
The political sutuation today is unique and could well be the last opportunity for decades to attain our freedom.There must be no mistakes or false sense of fairness.Too much at stake .
As for the one party state nonsense,the SNP are as answerable at the ballot box as any other,and the people of Scotland do not tolerate fools easily these days
Though I think there is something in the idea that if the SNP got to the point where they were elected unthinkingly election after election they could get complacent, I do not think we are at anything like that point.
Honestly SNP success is still so new when compared with the earlier decades of Labour hegemony (as well as the dominance of unionist parties and their ideas UK-wide!!) and (sadly) the SNP have not been so successful or dominant that they were able to push their flagship aim/policy through when most of us here wanted it to happen.
I really do think it’s early to be calling them ‘settled’ or ‘complacent’ though I’ll be right in there calling for them to be more bold and considering voting for others if I feel they are faltering on pushing for independence because they have gotten to like their careers a bit too much and became more concerned with being re-elected again and again.
SNP need a strong opposition? Like they haven’t already got most of Westminster, the BBC, and almost every newspaper opposing their very breath?
I’m not a member but I don’t see much sense in voting other than SNP x 2.
If only we had an aid, or device to help us with a choice of alternative party to the SNP for our second vote, I Know what about a wee wheel, or one of those folded paper jobs, the one where you put your fingers inside and you can see different faces as you move your fingers?
Actually we don’t need a opposition in Holyrood as we are lucky to have the corporate media, I mean if there really was any need to hold the SNP to account there best placed, it would make a change from manufactured smears to actual journalism, but surely not insurmountable for the grandee scribes of the Herald or Scotsman?
I had a dream where I took over the Scotsman, on my first day in charge I held an editorial meeting where I explained how we were going to be pro independence, and sat back and watched the room turn into a fair representation of a zombie apocalypse with hysterically screaming editors diving out of the windows and journalist’s brains exploding all around!
Anyway back to reality, in my opinion the only thing better than voting SNP is voting SNP twice, just saying with my open mind!
You can take the RISE outa labour…. etc…
jim
in fife and mid Scotland in 2011, snp won 8/9 constituencies and 1 x list msp
in may, the snp will win all 9 but with 45% of the list vote, they will win no list msps, none, nada, fuck all
wullie rennie is holding onto his list seat by the skin of his teeth, how is using my vote to replace him with, rise, sg, solidarity or screaming lord such, diluting the chances for independence?
@ Schroedinger’s Cat
” may not trust tommy Sheridan very much, but I trust him far more than jacky baillie
tommy’s heart is in the right place, jacky baillies brain isnt”
brilliant!
The basic problem for RISE is that people simpl
There is something about the left-left which has always puzzled me. Hard to put into words but perhaps one way is the apparent believe that is some way, fighting a good fight but losing miserably because you lack widespread appeal with voters, is a successful outcome. Being seen standing up for you principles seems more important than getting the opportunity of implementing policies based on those principles.
You must persuade voters that you best represent them. Setting yourself up as an ‘also ran’ by only appearing on lists is a poor start. It all reeks of a group who want to be noticed and listened to, but don’t want the hard work of becoming a full party.
I’m a member of the SNP but am not a political party type of person. I vote, but to be a member? Good grief! Perish the thought!
But these are not normal times, Independence is up for grabs, it’s in reach and I can taste it. Until we get Independence, and while the SNP remain true to the cause of getting Indy, as they are, it’s SNP both votes for me, and I’ll probably stay a member as well.
[…] Some very brief thoughts on RISE […]
As to RISE and the Greens, I believe they are both pro-independence (less so in the latter case, evidently) but do not mind doing whatever it takes to get their own people elected, even if it’s at the expense of having a majority of pro-independence people in Holyrood or inadvertently ending up with a unionist coalition in power.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that in itself. They have their various aims and need to try to further them under the situation given (in a Holyrood which is not an independent parliament).
However, they should be bolder about saying ‘these are our radical policies and why they need pushing’ rather than woolly talk about being the best opposition or having a ‘pro-independence majority in Holyrood’ (we already have one, with the SNP achieving it with a lesser vote share than they are currently projected to achieve in May).
In the latter case especially, there is some really disingenuous chat going on, as if what they advocate is the only way to achieve this.
Could what they advocate achieve it? Yes. But those otherwise minded to vote SNP twice should not be allowed to be put off by claims that a vote on the list is ‘wasted’ and threatens the chances of a ‘pro-independence’ majority. If anyone questions the logic, they should be told that we already got one because significant numbers of people voted SNP last time and that this is still the most likely way that another such result will occur this coming election.
I simply cannot understand those who claim to be socialists and who are attempting to persuade SNP voters to give them their second vote.
Surely they should be trying to persuade those who are still prepared to vote labour that the Scottish Socialists, solidarity, etc represents the policies and values that the old Labour party were founded on.
Mmmmm, I’ll stick with making sure we have a shot at independence first.
SNPx2
Why doesn’t the SNP create a 2nd party for all the list MpS and then the vote for this party cant be diluted and then they can go into coalition with themselves!! Seems logical and I cant see what the other parties can do about it !!
Schrodingers cat:
Jackie Baillie’s brain
?????Do’h!
yesindyref2 says:
It’s simple. If RISE say “Vote for us because we’re good and have these (x x x x) policies, so please give us you vote on the list”, that’s honest and fair competition.
to be honest, I coundnt give a flying proverbial what policies anyone has, except for independence. that includes the snp
to think that arguing against or for, nato, the eu, a republic, austerity etc is relevant, is deluded bollox.
without independence, we cannot effect any of the topics above. they are excersices in angelology, nothing more.
getting an over all majority for the snp is my first priority in may. getting rid of as many unionists list msps, replacing them with other indy supporters, is a nice to have. not a be all and end all position
the region in which I live, fife and mid Scotland, the snp will take about 45% of the list and win no list msps.(if anyone wants to waste their money, 1’ll give you odds of 5-1) I am not wasting my vote, I am trying to maximise it to ensure that wullie rennie is toast. that doesn’t make me a liar dads!
SNP x2, is the only way forward, anything else is a negative to our aims. As others have said, concentrate on our ultimate goal first, after Indy it the time for further discussions.
The SNP would also be the only viable option for at least the first term of Indy, because they now know how to govern.
We will need that, no one else is capable.
As has previously been indicated on this site, it is not possible to vote tactically with your second vote.
Indeed, that may be an aspect of the constitution which requires amendment in the future.
In the meantime, SNP2 – and let’s tell Osborne where to stick his mojo!
The people who are most likely to vote for RISE come to this site. Just take a look at the comments, or look at the polls. RISE have zero chance of getting anyone elected. I am a socialist and it hurts to say it and there are good reasons to stand in the election anyway, but we are kidding ourselves if we are saying firstly that RISE represents, the pro-indy left. They don’t, sorry. Also, RISE is not really a group, it’s two separate groups in an electoral pact, which is fine, but there is a process for creating democratic structures, which RISE would have to complete, before they can say that they are a group. Unity of the left must be a goal for any socialist, but I am sorry to say its as far away as it has ever been and it has a lot to do with a certain perma-tanned person, who still seems to be listened to, which is just depressing. I want what all lefty yessers want, an independent socialist Scotland. I sincerely wish that RISE was a means of getting there, but its not and that is sad. Best thing we can all do is snpx2 sorry comrades, but that’s the reality.
If you want independence but don’t like the SNP I’m afraid the only option is voting SNP. Anything else costs your goal support and votes which equals losing seats to unionist parties. SNP is the ONLY option at the present time. Vote for anybody once we achieve that goal. Not the tories though!
Like many others above, I vote SNP, as they are the ONLY party with the credibility and oomph to help Scotland achieve independence.
There is another consideration however, and that is, at the election in May, what will scare the Tories and the Britnat establishment most? What will put Scotland on the London agenda once again? Would it be a minority SNP Government or a majority SNP Government. My money is on the latter, and that is why, using pure common sense, I’ll be voting SNP twice.
Beware of those advocating otherwise, as the pseudo-mathematics and such tomfoolery they employ simply do not add up. Never forget, as we saw in the independence referendum, London will do ANYTHING, including dirty tricks to prevent another referendum/independence, and if that means deliberately trying to sow division or split the pro indy vote, to prevent an SNP majority, then that is what they will do. That is how Westminster works. It has always been so.
If you want a referendum, it has to be snp twice.
It’s also pretty weird to go on about how people should be looking at the wider picture rather than simply focusing on independence, while simultaneously going “vote for us because independence.”
Personally, I think if your main argument for why folk should vote for you is because you’ve chucked some completely unrealistic numbers into a voting calculator, then you’re basically conceding that you’re not good enough to get people’s votes based on normal stuff like, y’know, policies.
I find the “Scottish Syriza” thing pretty daft, to be honest. I mean, Syriza has been around in various forms since 2004, it didn’t just pop up from nowhere. The reality is there’s not much of a gap for an “anti-establishment” party in Scotland, because the SNP already occupies that space, just as Podemos were hardly a revelation in the Catalan elections, where the coalition they were part of actually lost seats.
Neil Cook
That is a brilliantly simple idea, is it possible?
SNP x 2
O/T
I see Jackson Carlaw and others moaning t hat Mr Salmonella is the highest earning politician in the UK.
Sour grapes…I’ve got some too in the fruit bowl left over from Christmas.
🙂
WOS guilty of what he criticises the MSM of? Quote only one argument & then accuse RISE of needing better arguments?
“WOS guilty of what he criticises the MSM of? Quote only one argument & then accuse RISE of needing better arguments?”
If I’d seen any better arguments I’d critique them.
The issue I have with tactical voting for smaller parties is that it seems to be, currently, a one sided approach.
If these pro-indy minority parties didn’t field candidates in the south of Scotland for example where they split the pro-indy vote to such an extent that we have Mundell elected, then I’d wholeheartedly support them asking for a loan of SNP second votes in areas that are unlikely to see an SNP list candidate elected.
However, they do field candidates here. The very fact they do so makes clear that their agenda is not ‘maximise pro-indy elected members’, it’s promote their own party at any cost. Fair enough, but if so, don’t ask SNP supporters to lend you their vote.
Until such a time as the smaller parties start playing smarter, there’s no way I will be risking supporting any of them with my list vote.
mike cassidy
As has previously been indicated on this site, it is not possible to vote tactically with your second vote.
bollox
The bottom line is this, if you think the unionist media have prematurely over played their, ‘the honeymoon is over’ card too many times already regarding the SNP, that will be magnified by infinity if the SNP do not win a majority.
The thought of what it will be like if the SNP fail to win a majority does not bear thinking about.
If you want Scotland to be Independent then it is imperative that you vote SNP/SNP.
Anything else only risks failure.
@
Sorry, have heard all this posturing utopian farrago before. SNPx2.
@Doug Daniels it’s my understanding that Podemos were anti-Catalan Indie, which might be why they did so badly in Catalonia but a lot better in the overall Spanish vote.
A better Catalan comparison for Rise may be La CUP who are further left than Junts Pel Sí and have just forced another Catalan vote by refusing to support the center right Artur Mas for president.
Fortunately Nicola is center left, will get an outright majority (unlike MAS) such that Rise will NOT be able to do the same & we can move forward towards IndyRef2
Oscar
indigo says:
The issue I have with tactical voting for smaller parties is that it seems to be, currently, a one sided approach.
If these pro-indy minority parties didn’t field candidates in the south of Scotland for example where they split the pro-indy vote to such an extent that we have Mundell elected, then I’d wholeheartedly support them asking for a loan of SNP second votes in areas that are unlikely to see an SNP list candidate elected.
well argued and relevant point. I argued relentlessly that the ssp and greens scould not stand at the ge… I said it would split the yes campaign and it did exactly that. many of the people on wings, some on this thread, argued against my position and it turned out to be one of the most damaging things to have happened to the yes camp. however, by your own logic, does that mean you are willing to lend solidarity your list vote, since they took the decision to follow exactly your position?
Neil Cook
That idea would totally subvert the rigged nature of the Scottish voting system. It’s brilliant and I agree, why not form “SNP TOO” as a party. A bit like Red Bull and Torro Rosso – to draw a F1 analogy.
My two pennies.
I want Independence for Scotland. SNP are the main vehicle for now. I am not a member of any political party.
I shall vote SNP plus SNP.
Remember the World shall be watching us. The more votes the SNP receives in both ballots the stronger the message….. Scotland wants Independence. Do not dilute that message.
The total number of SNP votes matters as much as the number of SNP MSPs
The game’s afoot.
One_Scot
The bottom line is this, if you think the unionist media have prematurely over played their, ‘the honeymoon is over’ card too many times already regarding the SNP, that will be magnified by infinity if the SNP do not win a majority.
The thought of what it will be like if the SNP fail to win a majority does not bear thinking about.
take note folks, this IS the only valid arguement against tactical voting in the list.
ie. it is too great a risk
good point well made one scot
I am and have always been a socialist. For me it is independence first and party politics later. I shall be voting SNP x 2 do not risk splitting the independence vote, and my hopes are firmly with the SNP.
People can vote for whom ever they want, as is their right.
Me? I’m voting SNP/SNP
Peter McCulloch
I simply cannot understand those who claim to be socialists and who are attempting to persuade SNP voters to give them their second vote.
Surely they should be trying to persuade those who are still prepared to vote labour
actually, they will be doing both. fiendishly clever huh
indyracer2018 at 10.06
“And your alternative proposal for establishing a radical left prescence in Holyrood is…..”
is that they do the work, stand for constituencies, win some of them and stop piggy-backing politically by using the list for a free and easy way into parliament (they hope).
To present as a serious,sensible,disciplined,coordinated and permanent radical left presence in the parliament they have to do that stuff, not just pop up before elections.
What’s the betting that the media will give them lots of coverage to dilute the SNP vote?
Most of them would be far better in the SNP but that would mean they would have to subscribe to group discipline etc etc etc and all the other annoying and inconvenient little things that allow a political movement to gather support and power.
How about they just got behind the SNP ( Scottish National Party- whose members are from all persuasions) and when we are an Independent country, they can then all form splinter parties!
Labour folk can’t hack voting SNP! So they invent new Scottish Independence parties-Jeez!
Vote SNP x 2 and we might get Independence some day! Give your 2nd vote away and we won’t!
Outright attack of the SNP would seem to be counter productive.
But half the vote is SNP, if you want votes you have to target the SNP vote, so the memes on sale here are – SNP not really left wing or progressive, and One Party State hysteria…
And the unionist media are helping to sell that, perhaps without realizing that they supporting rise and not Labour/Tory/LibDem.
schrodingers cat says:
“fife and mid Scotland, the snp will take about 45% of the list and win no list msps”
At 45%, they probably will take no list seats.
In 2011, Annabel Ewing got her list seat on 45.2% because the SNP only won 8 of 9 constituencies.
Willie Rennie got his list seat on 5.9% because LibDems won no constituencies.
LibDems will not get 5.9% this time. They will be toast.
In May the SNP will probably win 9 of 9. However, if their list vote was higher, say 50+%, then they are still in with a chance of one list seat.
ALL parties are competing for list votes. Small parties will soak up small single figure percentages.
I live in Fife and Mid Scotland and will be voting SNP-SNP.
If most SNP voters do the same it could be over 50% list. One tenth of that is just over 5%.
Realistically Tories will get two, Labour three, then the second last seat will be up for grabs with parties on …
SNP % divided by 10
Labour % divided by 4
Tory % divided by 3
LibDem %
Green %
Rise %
UKIP %
The final seat will have one of the above effectively removed, then ANY one could running. We are talking a small share around 5% at that stage.
SNP-SNP is the Indy safe option.
Robert Peffers@11.03
Certainly your briefest comment, if not your most illuminating.
For me it will be SNP x 2 in May.
I agree wholeheartedly with the concept of effective opposition however in this case I really do believe that RISE have got their knickers in a twist. To me it looks like they are all about getting bums on seats and NOT, as it should be in my view, getting the right people INTO Holyrood with the “expulsion” of the wrong ones.
This idea of RISE that the second vote should be RISE end of so to speak is, in my view, just plain wrong. RISE, in my view should really be concentrating on snatching seats from Labour. Labour, after all atre the second largest party in Holyrood at present and, in my view, the most ineffective.
I hope I am wrong in my thoughts here and RISE will be going after Labour List seats but what they say and how they say it gives me the impression that they will be looking to target List SNP candidates. This is NOT a good view in my opinion. By doing this they are letting the Tories and Labour back into Holyrood via the back door.
rant over you can all open your eyes again. 😀
SNP/SNP for me.
I wonder if living in Aberdeenshire has anything to do with me suspecting that all minor parties are False Flag Unionists?
AWPR or Aberdeen City Council anyone?
@schrodingers
Not in the South of Scotland this time around because there’s simply no way that the SNP will have a constituency clean sweep. The unionist vote seems to very much be consolidating in the direction of the Conservatives, so the SNP will need every list vote they can get here.
If I was in a list area where the SNP were very likely to take all constituencies then yes, I would be very open to placing my list vote elsewhere.
I have said this before…… Due to the multiplier in the regional vote system the best supported party is unlikely to get many list seats. The only way they will is if the opposition vote collapses completely and that is not likely to happen.
What’s wrong with setting up a second Indy supporting party seperate from the SNP but holding the same beliefs and values ?????
If it were seperate they could Hoover many of the list seats and effectively maximise the SNP vote share.
It could be done.
For those who have forgotten
link to wingsoverscotland.com
with a couple of direct quotes for the faint-of-heart when it comes to the maths.
“So now we have to deal with the tactical-voting issue. The whole point of AMS is that by redressing the unfairness that tends to result from FPTP, it’s designed to make tactical voting both unnecessary and pointless. Indeed, because you can’t know the constituency results in advance, it’s basically impossible.”
“It’s not this site’s business to tell anyone how to vote. What these numbers strongly suggest, though, is that tactical voting – of any sort and for anyone’s benefit – in an AMS election is a mug’s game. You should vote for the party or parties that you most want to see form the government, rather than trying to second-guess the system. Because if you try, chances are it’ll make a chump out of you.”
SNP/SNP
indigo
I would agree with you about the south of Scotland, snp 1 and 2
One Scot is absolutely correct.
The Corporate media will have a field day if the SNP are returned as a minority government. Hell, they will attempt a field day if the SNP majority does not increase in 2016. ‘Proof’, they will scream, ‘that independence is dead and we are all One Nation’. They will attempt to transmit that message around the globe.
Anything other than SNP times 2 is an indulgence we cannot afford.
As I stated earlier if the List Mps form the alternative SNP party and stand and win a barrowload of list seats the other parties can do nothing about it and after the election They say they are leaving the alternative party and joining the SNP they cant do nothing about it.
How many MPS in Westminster have changed parties in the past and they didn’t have to lose the seat.
Time for the Scottish Wings party to be formed with List Mps and candidates already proposed by the SNP !!
Surely enough time to get in place before May
Can you imagine the media they would have a canary !!
The SNP do not represent a one party state, they are just Scotlands voice in the house of Westminster being led by the Tories who are actively striving to turn the rest of the UK into a one party state.
@Cat
Course you’re not a liar. But, looking at the old scoreboard and my detailed spreadsheet, for Mid Scot and Fife in 2011 SNP got 1 list seat with 45.2% of the list vote. Projected by me on last opinion poll to get 51.2% of the list vote – and one seat – the 7th seat, with Greens getting 1 seat (4th) whereas they got 0 in 2011.
Yes, I don’t give a flying one either regarding policies compared to Indy, because without Indy and full powers and control over ALL revenues, many policies are just so much hot air.
O/T I am looking for a little help for a conversation i am having online in regards to the £2,598 First Ministerial pension that Alex Salmond said he would give to the Mary Salmond charity each month.
In the Registry of interest you can read his pledge:
link to scottish.parliament.uk
But in the OSCR page of the charity, no such payments have been made to the charity:
link to oscr.org.uk
I’m sure if any impropriety has been committed by Salmond over this then the unionist media would be all over it already and my thinking is that the payments are perhaps handled by a third party or something. Any help regarding this would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Do voters buy this kind of stuff? It just raises my hackles
Q. “Who is there to ensure such a formidable government takes responsibility? Who is there to offer a coherent alternative? It’s been nine years since Labour held power in Scotland: how much longer can we realistically deflect blame on to the failings of an administration consigned to history?
The SNP, as much as it might pain some to admit, is now the undisputed party of the Scottish establishment – not Labour. With that title comes a necessarily enhanced scrutiny.”
A. We the voters RISE.
Shaking off 70+ years SLab right to reign over us, with red and blue Westminster still running fiscal Scotland?
RISE, Get in the sea!
I agree the basic premise behind the RISE message is dishonest. Worse than that, they are putting the whole independence project at risk for the short-term gain of their own parties.
They should just stand on their policies instead of trying to manipulate the voting system and the voters.
Ive seen and am convinced by the Scot Goes Pop worked examples of how the voting system works. Anything less than SNP + SNP risks a minority administration, or worse, some sort of Unionist coalition, and is doing the UK State’s work for it in trying to prevent independence.
I feel for the individuals in RISE and the Greens, they believe in what they stand for and its good stuff that I would like to see in an independent Scotland, but its extraordinary times, independence is within our grasp and they MUST understand that without independence and a proportionally represented free Scottish Government they have ZERO chance of any of their ideals ever being realised. With any luck they will only have to make this sacrifice in one election!
Its unfortunate that the voting system is hard to understand. Its asking too much of people to understand it. Ive been through Higher Education and work in a technical job, and I still cant remember how it works without referring back to that Scot Goes Pop example.
Surely its possible to have a proportional system using a single vote? Just top up from the list according to the proportion of first votes cast.
It is important That we target an SNP MAJORITY of the vote on the list as the list will not be kind to us in seats achieved.
A majority on both votes gives a stronger mandate for IndyRef2
@Marconatrix says: 7 January, 2016 at 10:05 am:
” … If they get too comfortable in power they may well start to back-pedal on both independence and socialism, they’re only human after all. The ‘Labour’ Party were socialists once, difficult though that may be to believe.”
ae chance, Maconatrix. What happened Labour was not that they became too comfortable but that they became a whole UK, that is a Unionist, Party.
Labour began in Scotland with Kier Hardie who began his political career as a member of the Crofter’s Party. James Keir Hardie was the first Labour Member of Parliament. He started work aged seven. After working as a delivery boy he worked in the mines where he became a full-time trade union organiser. He led the failed Ayrshire miners’ strike in 1881 which never the less made such an impression on the mine-owners they granted the workers many concessions for fear of future industrial action.
He was backed by the Liberals to stand for parliament in Scotland but was well beaten. He later won the parliamentary seat of West Ham South inn England as an independent in 1892, and then helped form, “The Independent Labour Party”, (ILP) in 1893.
In 1900 he helped to form the union-based, “Labour Representation Committee”, that was then renamed, “The Labour Party”, and with which the ILP then merged. Hardie was also a lay preacher and temperance campaigner, who supported votes for women, self-rule for India, home-rule for Scotland, and an end to segregation in South Africa. At the outbreak of World War I, he tried to organise a pacifist general strike, but he died shortly afterwards.
The problem was, of course, that as, “The United Kingdom Labour Party”, Kier Hardy, like the present lot of Labour Members of Parliament, had sold out their socialist credentials and had become fully paid up members of the, “Westminster Establishment”, and thus fully fledge unionists and unionists are never really Home Rulers in any shape or form.
The SNP remain a Scottish Party and will always be for Scottish Independence.
all minor parties are False Flag Unionists?
mmm, even if they are, isn’t it better than say…uum…unionists?
RISE and any other minority can start cutting their teeth on any council elections. Get some real experience of dealing with an electorate who may not share your ideals.
Sheridan is like Farage, a single ‘Me’ construct. If they leave for whatever reason the wheels come off. Indy is bigger and better than that and I see the SNP as the only vehicle able to deliver.
It’s not just about seats, percentages send clear messages to Westminster. It has to be twice as loud for Scotland to be heard. SNP/SNP
Its unfortunate that the voting system is hard to understand. Its asking too much of people to understand it. Ive been through Higher Education and work in a technical job, and I still cant remember how it works without referring back to that Scot Goes Pop example.
you accept that you don’t understand they system but are certain that….
“I agree the basic premise behind the RISE message is dishonest. Worse than that, they are putting the whole independence project at risk for the short-term gain of their own parties”
do you want to buy a bridge?
Colin Fox / Cat Boyd etc are excellent candidates. However this is not the time to divide our vote. From now until Independence is achieved we need to send a clear message regarding our determination to become a nation once again.
The time to vote Green, Rise etc is AFTER we attain nationhood. I like many others may vote differently later when the critical objective is delivered – until then it will be SNP X 2 every time.
Nothing will be achieved that changes the quality of life for the people of our country until Holyrood is the primary policy driver. A division of our vote now will set us back on that journey.
Far too many endeavours in regard to progress fail due to minor factions wanting their particular label to be prominent.
The SNP banner is the rallying flag of Independence – That MUST come first.
Sorry Colin and Cat but Scotland comes first at the moment and I hope you both do well after we achieve Independence.
Robert Kerr @ 11.09 makes a great point regarding how the SNPs overall share of the vote will be interpreted.
My whole issue is with the list vote being spoken of as if it is a second choice rather than a way of proportionally levelling out the constituency vote.
The Additional Member System is in place to create a more proportionally representative chamber at Hollyrood, not to be tactically manipulated.
Incidentally, it seems to me that the only tactical voting that’s possible is through the constituency rather than the list.
The list vote represents the make-up of the parliament (i.e. you vote for who most closely represents your political views). With the constituency vote however you are voting directly for a parties candidate that you want to see represent you, and if your particular flavour of Indy party isn’t available to you to vote for, then the obvious tactical decision is to bolster the SNPs candidate!
Generally speaking, I don’t think it’s wise for anyone to speak of ‘wasted votes’ as people know exactly how important their votes are. It is an insult to the electorates intelligence who, if they happen to be a little doubtful on the specifics of the D’hondt calculation method can be trusted to fully research it for themselves, in my experience 😉
My advice to anyone involving themselves in the upcoming activities is to concentrate on policies rather than numbers.
2/5 on kezia mentions oil price FMQs
OT completely:-First Minister’s Questions will begin at 12 Midday today for 30 minutes.
Scottish Parliament TV:-
link to scottishparliament.tv
Take about 2-3 hours for the FMQs to be Archived and available to all.
If I may can I throw a wee insignificant spanner in the works here? 😉
As some, maybe all of you know, there is a new kid in politics town. It is called the Unionist Party. Now don’t all go rushing for the sick bucket at once now. 😀
Above everything else please keep the laughter down to a dull roar … PLEASE! 😀
link to abbup.org
link to facebook.com
Now, as things stood last May we had four Unionist type parties on the go in Scotland namely RED Tories (a.k.a. Labour), BLUE Tories (A.K.A. Tory), PURPLE Tory (A.K.A. UKIP) and the other one (a.k.a. Lie/Dems). This meant, in my view, the unionist vote was split FOUR ways.
With the arrival of *chokes* theUnionist Party does this not lead to the possibility of the unionist vote being split FIVE ways? 😉
If a five way unionist split doesindeed happen then could that not help a) RISE b) the Greens and c) the SNP to win more seats from the List vote? 😉
@Me
The spreadsheet I produced just has all regions getting all SNP constituency seats bar 2 (Orkeny and some South of Scotland seat I didn’t identify) to make the spreadsheet easier (that is configurable), but that is unlikely to happen. I’ll happily put the .xls file up on my little-used wordpress if there’s enough demand, but it is a bit dangerous because of that premise, so I’d have to put up loads of WARNINGS with it! Also clean up the decimal places a bit.
Any demand for it, let me know – it means you could mess around yourself, I’d have to do some “instructions” with it which would take a bit of time.
There will be no unified ‘left’ in this country until Sheridan fesses-up or fucks off. There’s no sign of him doing either anytime soon.
@Lesley-Anne
Yes, I must admit I did consider “false flag” campaigning a little for the new party …
looking at the old scoreboard and my detailed spreadsheet, for Mid Scot and Fife in 2011 SNP got 1 list seat with 45.2% of the list vote. Projected by me on last opinion poll to get 51.2% of the list vote – and one seat – the 7th seat, with Greens getting 1 seat (4th) whereas they got 0 in 2011.
greens missed out on the 7th seat to the snp, but bear in mind, in 2011, the snp won 8/9 seats, this time they will take all 9 and their vote will be divided by 10, not 9. so even if they do get 51% of the list vote, they will still not win any list seats. btw, my spread sheet shows they got 50/45% con/list in 2011, and in may 2015, if you add up all of the constituencies in the fife mid scot region they got 50% of the vote. I don’t know there you get the 51% prediction for the list in this region since it has always been below the constituency vote.
I predict a 46% snp list vote in this region. ie, no snp msps and wullie rennie holds his seat
The latest projections I have found for May 2016 are this :-
SNP – 71
Lab – 24
Con – 14
Grn – 12
L.D – 7
UKIP -1
That would be 83 for Independence and 34 for the Union.
Probably Lab and Con will be closer than 24/14 more like 20/18 I think.
If RISE could disturb Lab/L.D/UKIP it would be good for the Independence cause.
I have suggested and would prefer an Independence Umbrella Party(not including but supported by the SNP)like the YES campaign. That is unlikely to happen.
So my question is – How can we help RISE to take seats from Lab/L.D/UKIP ? Now that would be helpful to the Independence cause. Not so sure about Colin Fox but Cat Boyd and Jean Urquhart would get my vote.
Soda 11.39.
Simples. Ask Mr.Salmond.
As long as Scotland is the UK some of the left will always have a schizophrenic attitude to Scotland.
James Connolly of Edinburgh was a founder member of the ILP with Keir Hardie in 1893 but Labour members in Westminster cheered when he was executed ( or more accurately “was murdered” as he had surrendered) in Dublin in May 1916.
The only sensible vehicle for constitutional change in Scotland at this moment is the SNP which has no complications to deal with
Sheridan fought the council tax (went to prison) and stopped warrant sales in Scotland. Stopped vulnerable people’s goods being sold off at undervalue. Sheridan did more for the vulnerable in Glasgow/Scotland than any other person.
The Greens are misguided and unreliable. Cost the taxpayers £Millions. Renege on their own policies and support the status quo, the Unionists/Landowners, who fund their protests.
Nation Libre: “… if there were to be any chance of other pro independence parties getting in on the list vote then the Greens, Rise, Solidarity etc should come to some agreement on which constituencies they should stand and which they should concede…”
Don’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen. It’s amazing how the ‘radical left’ (who supposedly stand for people working together for the common good) always manage to fall out, splinter, fractionate and fight each other as soon as there’s a chance of achieving anything.
The one and only positive thing I can say about the Labour Party is that they historically managed to contain a broad range of views under one banner – and occasionally it got them enough votes to do something useful. But that’s history: neither Jez-and-the-backstabbers or Kez-and-the-bookcookers have a snowball’s chance of ever agreeing on a clear message that will get them elected.
RIC, SSP and Tommy Sheridan did a lot to boost the Yes vote at IndyRef1. If they came together to offer an alternative for SLab voters, I’d applaud.
But I think they’ve probably worked out that the remnant Labour voters are either hardened Unionists or people with their heads up their bums, who do it out of ingrained habit. Getting ex-Lab voters back from the SNP is the soft option for RISE.
Ye gawds.
Kezia going on about private jousing and in her second questions goes on about 16 to 35 year olds owning their own home. 16 year olds owning their own home!!! … REALLY!!!
I always knew there were far too many milljonaires living in Scotland these days! 😀
Independence or an argument about who’s more lefty than who?
Will I just eat my cereal and then vote SNP/SNP
Simples, if you want a nail in you hit it with a big hammer
What’s a Rise with respect, Nobody, they just aren’t in it so why on earth waste a vote and dilute what you’re trying to do by leaving room for Yoon parties
SNP/SNP You know it makes sense!
It doesn’t cancel the first vote as they won’t oppose them on independence. The complete refusal to consider any other pro-indy party is baffling and goes against the pluralism of the indy campaign.
“It doesn’t cancel the first vote as they won’t oppose them on independence.”
Nobody mentioned independence.
Missed a bit in my last comment. –
I would have no problem with intelligent opposition to some of the SG/SNP policies. Thus far there has been little or none.
To be truly proportionate the list should be determined by the votes cast on the FPTP ballot.
No need for a second vote which is now being used in ways it was not intended.
@cat
Yes, the spreadsheet assumes all 9 constituency seats.
2011 Overall list vote SNP 44.0%
2015 TNS Poll list vote SNP 54%
2011 Mid Scot & Fife list vote 45.2%
Uniform swing 2016 prediction from TNS Poll = 45.2% * 54% / 44% = 51.2%.
I calculate each region individually, and the SNP get the 7th list seat for Mid Scot & Fife.
Ian Brotherhood at 11.57
That is true,sadly. Is he big enough or wise enough to see this?
Ian Brotherhood
There will be no unified ‘left’ in this country until,….
the first statement of rise effectively banned Sheridan, and anyone else who supported solidarity, from being part of rise
alan grogan has already said he wont be part of rise and the ssp may still stand candidates
the problem with the left is they continue to blame everyone else for the divisions
btw, the ssp stood 4 candidates in may at the ge, they got a combined total of 800 votes, at a cost of £2000, about £2.40 a vote
the ssp and greens decision to stand candidates in may was and still is, the most divisive thing to happen to the yes campaign since the referendum .
people in glass houses shouldn’t through stones…
Oh dearie me … tin helmets on folks … Austerity asterity austeriy … SNP BAD! 😀
Look out folks Kezia’s last question straddles A.P.D. 😀
Good for Nicola Sturgeon to remind the chamber that her £3,000 is the THIRD use of A.P.D. 😀
You don’t tie the hands of your prize fighter..
SNP/SNP
@nodrog
If while campaigning you get someone saying “I hate the sneaky divisive lying SNP and that Alecsammin””, ask them to vote for Green / RISE instead of Lab / LibDem / Con.
@schrodingers cat
You cannot guarantee that the SNP will win every constituency seat, especially the NE Fife seat. Perhaps if SNP supporters stopped promoting giving the list vote away the poll percentage may go up for the list seats.
@Schodingers cat
What Im saying is when I read the worked example, I understood the system enough to understand that not voting SNP+SNP risks a minority government. I can take that understanding and vote accordingly, but I couldnt reproduce the explanation without referring back to it.
I assume they’re capable of understanding it too. As I say its a difficult situation. I want them to succeed and prosper, Ive voted for them in the past, but independence is the priority, without that they will certainly never succeed and prosper. This election is key.
Lesley-Anne
The gormless Dugdale also stated that the SNP wanted to cut the APD tax paid by the big airlines
Which is idiotic as APD is actually paid by the passengers
through ticket purchase, the airlines don’t pay anything, they just collect from the passengers to pass onto treasury
Its passengers that will benefit if APD is cut and will open up routes through passenger demand
I’m an unashamed centrist – you need to both protect the vulnerable and encourage enterprise while in government, which means it is SNP/SNP for me.
I have always been wary of hard-left hang-the-rich parties, their tendency to eventually fight among themselves, but appreciate their essential voice for the poor and would not object to their presence in Holyrood.
RISE are relatively new & will gain some political & campaigning experience this year, and I wish them well. Folk like Common Weal are at least generating ideas for a future Scotland, and if they gain an MSP or two, they’ll learn the difficult part is implementing them and taking everyone with them.
Turnout in SP elections in the past is 50-60% so there is plenty scope for them to tap into non-voters & the disillusioned who fell off the radar after the Referendum, as well as the rump of SLab.
I won’t tell anyone not to vote for them, but they’ll need to earn their own voters with policies & positions, & not just hitch a pro-Indy ride
Re the Fraser Stewart article on Common Space, Doug Daniel nails it in his comment with one single statement:
“The thing that gets me about articles like this is the fundamental dishonesty at the heart of them. “
The article has nice warm fuzzy feelings about Democracy in Scotland, while totally ignoring the fact that Scotland at Westminster with 58 out of 59 non-Conservative MPs is totally overruled by the 590 non-Scotland MPs – on Scottish matters. There is no SVSL without Independence, and that’s the real democratic issue.
@Fireproofjim says: 7 January, 2016 at 11:22 am:
“Robert Peffers@11.03
Certainly your briefest comment, if not your most illuminating.”
Only just the shortest, Fireproofjim, I have posted the comment, “No”, before.
In this instance I didn’t post anything. I began by inserting name and email address and @. Then my doorbell rang. I went to the door and returned to find the post had gone.
So put down to the computer gremlins – or, perhaps, the wee dug.
There is SO much stupidity being talked about tactical voting. It’s very simple in AMS:
* List vote for the party whose policies are closest to what you want.
* Constituency vote for the human you want to represent you.
* If you vote for what you don’t want, you will get what you don’t want.
Only the constituency vote can be tactical, because it’s FPTP, and even then you can’t keep a specific person out if they are also on the top of the party list.
So, interesting question: why are the BBC frantically trying to keep the Lib Dems as a “major” party and the Greens as a “minor” party? Are they worried about the Green second vote displacing Lib Dem list seats?
Are they fuck. The Green list vote isn’t the point: 9 seats? Whatever. But if you want to vote for Green policies and can’t vote for a Green constituency candidate, who gets your FIRST vote? Probably not any of the unionist candidates, because they all implicitly support keeping environmental and energy policy in the hands of the British Unionist Party (aka. red/yellow/blue tory coalition).
The green surge is basically a source of free constituency votes for SNP by default.
Edward says:
7 January, 2016 at 12:22 pm
Lesley-Anne
The gormless Dugdale also stated that the SNP wanted to cut the APD tax paid by the big airlines
Which is idiotic as APD is actually paid by the passengers
through ticket purchase, the airlines don’t pay anything, they just collect from the passengers to pass onto treasury
Its passengers that will benefit if APD is cut and will open up routes through passenger demand
AHA!
You noticed the Elephant in the room alongside wee Kezia then Edward. 🙂
Isn’t it amazing just how glaring STUPID Kezia Dugdale turns out to be week in week out. I can NOT believe that she does not understand how the A.P.D. payment system works.
JEEZ!
Dugdale wants to the next First Minister. … REALLY? 😀
My politics are socialist. My need is Independence. When independence is achieved then we can, and will, produce the kind of Scotland we want by our political leanings defining our needs. Until then SNP/SNP it has to be!
As others have already said on this thread any diminution of the SNP vote in the Holyrood elections will be used by the Unionists and their media to portray the SNP as becoming less it popular.
There is also the very big risk that splitting the SNP vote will allow a unionist politician to get elected.
This is what activists in the Borders claimed happened as result of the Greens standing a candidate in the constituency during the general election it allowed the Tory David Mundell to get re-elected.
RISE are the physical manifestation of Scots unable to agree the colour of shite.
Maybe they should grow up, get real, dissolve, get behind the SNP, secure independence, THEN we can all argue the correct colour of shit.
SNP x 2, nothing less.
Got work to do, here’s the detail for Mid Scotland and Fife, using the projected list vote with uniform swing from 2011 actual results, using the TNS pre-Christmas poll.
SNP 51.2%, Lab 17.5%, Con 12.6%, Lib 4.2%, Grn 7.9%, Other 1.5%.
List seats won using the resulting divisor from total number of seats so far + 1:
Lab 17.55% (8.77)
Con 12.59% (6.30)
Lab 8.77% (5.85)
Grn 7.93% (3.96)
Con 6.30% (4.20)
Lab 5.85% (4.39)
SNP 5.12% (4.65)
Figure in brackets is the resulting % for the next round. So the SNP would win an eighth seat if there was one.
See what I mean about tidying up decimal places, but they’re needed in some cases.
Kezia knows fine what she’s doing. She can talk rubbish knowing the BBC will unquestioningly broadcast it in bulletin after bulletin with no rebuttal, and enough people will hear and believe it to give Slab a few more votes.
Scotland has to come first. For me, that means SNP x 2.
As others have said, after, and only after, we achieve independence, then we can sort out the shape of our parliament and vote for the smaller parties.
Eyes on the big prize guys. SNP x 2 till then.
I would vote for RISE to-morrow if we were independent but united we must stand,no splitting the vote.
RISE on The Daily Politics? how exciting. The Daily Politics panini for lunch, BBC, Lord Hennessy, red/blue tory etc imperial masters bashing on about Trident 2, great debate, red Ken a bit flaky, Ligger Neil very excitable, any Scottish region voice? not a chance in nuclear winter, BBC style.
Panini’s Italian for sandwich.
Yes, Mundell would probably have been kicked out if the Greens hadn’t stood in the constituency,
BUT
The Green party is a totally legally constituted political party, it is fully entitled to stand candidates wherever it wants, and campaign on behalf of that party. Indeed to be taken seriously as a political party it has to stand candidates, and results in both UK and Holyrood elections are taken into consideration by polling companies and the likes of the BBC.
It’s totally up to the voters who they vote for, and if people vote for Green in a marginal constituency, that’s up to them. One person, one vote. That’s democracy.
It’s also up to individual activists what they do on a marginal seat, whether they want to suggest to voters that, if they don’t vote Green, perhaps they could vote SNP as the SNP candidate might force out the Conservative and has more chance of doing so.
But any political party is full entitled to stand candidates, anywhere they want.
And I should know better but…
Soda says: 11:39 says: 11:39
O/T I am looking for a little help for a conversation i (sic) am having online in regards to the £2,598 First Ministerial pension that Alex Salmond said he would give to the Mary Salmond charity each month. In the Registry of interest you can read his pledge:
Well the link you supplied makes no reference to pension, only to pay? So well done you have confused me! If it were pension the scheme rules are as follows;
Scottish Parliamentary Pensions
A pension (a “scheme pension”) is to be paid to every individual who—
(a) has reckonable service as an MSP or office-holder,
(b) is aged 65 or over, and
(c) is neither an MSP nor the holder of a qualifying office.
Alex Salmond is 61
But back to your little dig, the link to the financial return you supplied is to end of March 2015, again you confuse me as Alex Salmond became an MP In May 2015, you may remember that election when the Scottish electorate all but obliterated the old parties of yesterday!
But to answer your question as to the lack of media interest, as Alex previously paid £92,000 to this charity in previous years, and as the charity is not due to report until March 2016, maybe the press, not wishing to attack a man who has given more to charity that I doubt you or I ever will, have the good sense that by your pathetic attempt at a smear you clearly lack.
Regardless of politics it is good advice never to attack a man for his charitable works, not ever! Do you grasp how low that would make you appear?
You’re not Stuart or Claymore 65 are you; I thought the schools were back.
There really is a very simple answer to this.
RISE should be targetting the Labour 1st preference as follows.
Dont vote Labour Vote RISE. 2nd preference Vote SNP?
Simples!
In my view, the far left did have a window of opportunity maybe 10 – 15 years ago.
At a time when that broad indy support which exists across the entire domestic political (dompol) spectrum could have been harnessed in a cross-party constitutional alliance. Perhaps with a joint constitutional manifesto separate from their own dompol manifestos.
A viable left plus the SNP/Greens for the centre plus a business friendly right of centre party could have succeeded in gaining an indy referendum for Holyrood back then, and at a time I am sure we would have won that referendum (54% Yes starting point in polls).
Indeed, at that time it appeared the only way such a referendum could be attained then, since it seemed scarcely possible that the SNP or any single party with its own specific dompol manifesto for that matter, could have gained a chamber majority in Holyrood.
However, as we now know, some fine position tweaking with good leadership by the SNP and more importantly, a propensity for self-destruction by their rivals, lead to a near miraculous situation where enough Left and Right voters were willing to lend their vote to the SNP to achieve a result which was designed to be ‘impossible’ in the Holyrood system.
In other words, the SNP became as much a movement as a party.
But it was not to be, largely, IMV, down to the monumental and vying egos within the Left faction.
Of course, everyone has some kind of ego, but I think it is true to say that those who seek political office tend to be significantly above average on that score, it is part and parcel of the (self) selection process. There, are, of course, exceptions, especially within the SNP’s new contingent, where a larger number than usual have had it foist upon them, to varying degrees.
But in my less than happy experience with the far Left back then, it was both a surprising and dismaying revelation to me just how monumental the egos of those vying for leadership(s) in that part of the poltical spectrum were. Adulation, adulation, adulation by a willing following being their main, sometimes seemingly only, goal.
This was surprising to me because I had naively thought that since greater equality was the far Left’s USP, the opposite would be the case.
In hindsight, I should not have been surprised since the clues were all there in the early history of the Russian revolution. But I still do not understand the psychology which underlies that seeming dissonance, especially that propensity of a lumpen proletariat to eagerly seek, lionize and follow a leader.
I also found the vying leader’s unwillingness to bend their high moral ground principles even a little in the name of pragmatism very frustrating, at the time putting this down to an unwillingness to actually become electable because of the accompanying responsibilities that would have entailed. But, again, subsequently, I have come to realise that protection of their ‘Prolier than thou’ stance was vital to maintaining their own leadership position(s).
Ho hum.
Anyhoo, when it started to look like the far Left could become a vehicle which could help force a referendum it was a depressingly simple matter for the Brestablishment to exploit the inherent weaknesses and cause the destructive schisms which ensued.
Have lessons been learned? I hope so, but will require some convincing. I hope so because there is no way of knowing just how long those on the further Left will be willing to forego their natural dompol positions and keep supporting the SNP.
We may yet need a viable multi pro-indy party strategy if only in future I would rather not contemplate.
Their sole policy platform so far appears to be “Let’s try and hoodwink some SNP voters” full stop.
We all know in our heart of hearts that the only way RISE will still exist by 2021 is if only one of them gets elected. If 2 get elected, within six months we’ll have RI and SE and if 4 get elected, we’ll have R, I, S, and E.
I’ve previously always split my vote, but then I had Margo to vote for. I’m humming and hawing about the Greens but realistically it looks like both votes SNP for me.
THE RISE Popular People’s Front for the Liberation of Scotland may do better in 1970s Tooting.
What gets me – and makes me a tad suspicious – is that RISE appears to be expending its energy on gaining votes from the SNP. Why not go after the Labour vote? Why feed off the SNP’s years of effort and its members’ personal sacrifices? Why risk weakening the independence cause?
You can bet that, short of a defeat for the SNP, nothing would please unionists more than to see it lose its majority, and having its practical legislative programme hamstrung by a coterie of idealistic egos.
yesindyref2 @ 12:42
Well done with prediction. It makes clear in calculations based on polls what I was trying to say earlier in woolly words!
What you are doing using polls is the only predictor of what might happen.
And, yes, it means SNP-SNP is the safe choice. What matters most is denying any of the Unionists the seventh, or even sixth list seat.
Why water down the SNP vote by doing anything like what they are suggesting. Their time will only come when we are independent.
In the meantime it’s SNP/SNP
The reason why less young people buy a house is because there are less young people as a % of the population (pro rata). They are in education longer as a % (pro rata). Many young people would rather rent as it gives them more disposible income and it gives them more freedom, to travel etc. They share which is cheaper – more disposible income. People often seek to buy a house when they want to have children or ‘settle down’. People are having less children and later. ‘The Pill – available contraceptives. Demographics.
James Caithness
You cannot guarantee that the SNP will win every constituency seat, especially the NE Fife seat. Perhaps if SNP supporters stopped promoting giving the list vote away the poll percentage may go up for the list seats.
correct, I also cannot guarantee that the monster raving loonies wont win in may either
that doesn’t mean we cant know what the probable outcome will be
ie,
the MRLP probably wont win the holyrood election in may, based on the fact they have never one anything before
the snp will probably win 50/45 constituency/list vote in fife and mid scot giving 9/0 msps, based on the fact they got 50% of the vote in this region in the general election.
I would love the snp to increase their list vote in this region from 45-50% but even if they do, they still wont win any list msps in this region
I am sure as we near the election the unionist media and other unsavories will try and promote Independent supporting parties other than the SNP in an attempt to split the SNP vote.
The main thing we need to do is to stay focused on our goal. Once Scotland is Independent there will be plenty of time for the smaller parties to flourish.
It is easier to buy a house now. Than 40/50 years ago. Easier funding is available. Less % deposit. 3 x joint incomes. More women work.
Rise is just not a genuine sounding political movement let alone party.
Radical? The leftys are always said to be ‘radical’, the right wing love it. Just what that word conjures up in people’s minds is not one which gives them a sense of security.
Designed to detract, distract and make Scottish politics appear to possess an element of anarchy.
No thanks, it’s going to be, SNPx2 :-))
Common Weal are at least generating ideas for a future Scotland, and if they gain an MSP or two, they’ll learn the difficult part is implementing them
um, don’t think CW are standing for election?
Scotland only got ‘granted’? Devolution 15 years ago – 2000. After years of campaigning. Only since then have the accounts been opened to show the Unionists years of lies, illegal, secret criminal behaviour. Even that was flawed.
RISE are just beginning. They may turn out to be a useful political entity for Scotland, but like all new parties, we can’t tell at this stage. They do have some good people standing though, from a variety of backgrounds.
They won’t win any constituency seats, so it makes sense for them to ask people to use their 2nd vote for them. They are wrong to say “both votes SNP can not and will not work”, as it is likely that the SNP will win some regional seats, again (they won 16 last time). But on the bright side, at least they aspire to opposing the SNP in Holyrood and not another party, and they are pro-independence.
If they win a few seats, great, let’s see how they get on. The Greens gained a lot in political maturity (and media exposure) from having even a small number of seats, and they added a valuable voice to the Yes campaign, so it may be that RISE can develop and do the same in the next referendum.
I might be repeating this video but it should be shared everywhere.
link to facebook.com
@Ken500 1.18pm
You are right. When I was in my early 20,s trying to buy a house, with both my husband and I working full time, only his salary x 2 was taken into consideration.
That’s why, when Thatcher started to sell off our housing stock, people jumped at the chance to buy. Who can blame them?
I have never disputed that the greens are a legally constituted political party.
And yes we do live in a democracy and a party can stand candidates in any constituency it likes, that’s as it should be.
However the electorate should be fully informed of what the consequences are in voting for a party’s candidate that hasn’t a hope in hell of winning the seat, which in this case resulted in the re-election of Tory MP David Mundell.
This is a problem we face with up coming Holyrood elections as RISE asks SNP voters to give them their second vote.
Somebody is taking a “Rise” we have so much history of splintering in Scotland it became the national obsession, Church of Scotland, Free Church, Free Presbyterian Church, Free Church Continuing, Congregationalists, United Free Church etc’ etc, ad nauseum. The old story of the benefactor who built two kirks, one to attend & the other to keep well away from springs to mind. Only a double-dunt for the SNP will do!
Anent @ Nova Scotia & the National, whoever is in charge of marketing the paper needs a boot up the arse, they seem quite content to tread water, a commercial success doesn’t appear to be what’s at all wanted?
dads
the problem with your figures is they take polling results for the whole of Scotland and shoe horn them in to the region of fife and mid Scotland
if you total the votes for every constituency from the general election for the region of fife and mid scot, the snp got 50%
that is what they will do again in the constituencies for holyrood in may and the list vote will be as it was in all previous holyrood elections will be lower, about 45%. even if it is 50% in the list. the snp still wont win any list mps in this region
The main goal is independence,after which many will vote for other parties. It isn’t that nobody likes any of their policies.It’s just that independence needs to be in place first to get the power to enact policy without another parliament overruling and undermining an elected Scottish governments decisions.
“Neil Cook says:
7 January, 2016 at 10:46 am
Why doesn’t the SNP create a 2nd party for all the list MpS..”
The electoral commission would crack down on that.
The only way a pro-indy list vote would possibly work is a simple YES party or Independence party with no other agenda beyond achieving self-government.
Perhaps even involving former SNP politicians. But it could be a fine line as to what would be classed as an SNP front.
With RISE and the Greens, independence seems secondary to their main platforms of the hard left or the environment. Problem for the small parties is they just split the vote amongst themselves.
SNP / SNP worked last time.
If they fall short of a majority because of failed tactical voting, I could see a unionist coalition of Lab/Tories/Libdem just to keep the SNP out. That’s what happened in various councils.
Not just for independence, but for a continuation of managing Scotland’s pocket money against the odds, for finding new ways to mitigate the dreadful welfare cuts to our poorest, for thinking and acting on the environment, against huge huge odds. Just a few things why we need an SNPx2 in May.
They are just getting into their stride and if you think about it, have done pretty well considering the work they did on the Indy ref. The whole bridge situation, the floods, the NHS, I can’t imagine where we would be had liebour, libdems or tories been at the helm. A chilling thought.
Next time though, do we need such a long campaign in the run up to the indy ref?
On APDT. You can tell by Kezia’s face that she knows she is not telling the truth. .
Osbourne knows he has failed, tries to find excuses, but continues to rack it in for the associates and relatives. Father-in-law, best man and brother-in-Law.
@Ken
Yes it’s easier to buy a house now. The problem is that the cost is a far greater percentage of our salary now. Friends of mine are taking on 40 yrar mortgages. This easy credit is what caused the financial crisis. Because rental cost rises with house prices more youngsters are pushed into getting onto the hosing ladder It’s a debt trap.
Imagine having the power to print money, lend it out knowing that there’s a good chance the recipient will default. You get the asset (house) and you’re protected by the tax payer.
That sums up our economy. The silly thing is by encouraging greater levels of private debt we end up with less disposable income with which to stimulate the economy and we can see the results of this today.
I’m sick of so called intelligent middle classes looking on house price inflation as a sign of a strong economy.
Would the Voting Field not be much clearer after Independence ,Rise & other pro Indy parties have less compitition, if they,re Policies are that good Why rush, we,ve waited 307+ years for Independence (how long have they waited ,how long have the been in excistance ).
As I said to Colin Fox & others , their profile has been lifted by the 1st Yes Campain & they need to bide they,re time, some People cant wait to get their feet on a Gravy Train, at the cost of Independence.
SNP 1 & 2.
O/T Has anyone read this yet
link to cityam.com
There was infinitely more flexibility in renting, no one blames anyone for buying, but look at the outcome from a generation who bought all the council stock, which has impacted the following generation’s ability to rent in areas they were raised in.
Especially if that area happens to be one of the wealthier areas. Thatcher did a grand job in splitting social cohesion, she achieved that through buying off socialists. Go figure.
On topic SNP/SNP Scotland First, Party Later.
@cat
Yes, I took uniform swing which is the standard way of doing things, so if there’s a 22% increase in the list vote all over Scotland for the SNP, from 44% to 54%, I worked that out (or the spreadsheet does) for all 8 regions.
But if instead of 51.2% list vote in Mid Scotland and Fife, the SNP “only” got 45%, they would still get the 7th list seat, as the resulting %age would be 4.50% compared to the nearest being Labour at 4.39%.
Ken500 says: “It is easier to buy a house now. Than 40/50 years ago.”
Aye, but it’s much harder than 10 or 12 years ago – when the banks that Labour de-regulated were handing out 120% mortgages of 4 times the buyer’s salary, to 18 and 20 year olds, as if there was no tomorrow.
It was just a bloody pyramid scheme and it caused the 2008 crash. It invisibly impoverished the people. It set young people up for a life of debt and lowered living standards, in pursuit of higher house prices. It postponed the realisation that the UKOK economy is in terminal decline. rUK doesn’t make or sell anything of value since Thatcher decimated industry, so they have to depend on Scottish produce and artificial property bubbles to stave of a ginormous slump.
The fact that SLab’s key policy seems to involve re-inflating the bubble shows that they’ve learned nothing. They’re still the party for the property speculators, against the workers.
I’m in the south of Scotland and only realised recently that I have been voting SNP for close on thirty five years, at first tactically to keep the Tory out, since I could never describe myself as a Nationalist, but then with increasing conviction that the only way to achieve the society I want is to have independence.
There are aspects of SNP policy with which I differ but for the foreseeable future, they are the vehicle for the only real change possible and that is independence. So for this election, yet again, I will vote SNP first and second. I don’t care to second guess the d’Hondt system and in the circumstances, feel that support for the SNP must be kept firm in the face of a hostile onslaught from the MSM. Irrevocably, the chance of independence is closely tied to the fortunes of the SNP.
As Schrodingers Cat says above NATO, Europe and the rest are of no consequence and only distract from the one thing that maters INDEPENDENCE. I would vote for the devil if it would bring independence Dugdale is however a unionist so it will have to be SNP X 2.
The Flamester at 1.46 –
How can any supposedly intelligent UK politician misunderstand Scottish politics to such an extent? But then, since he is typical of so many, this is why independence for Scotland is imperative.
We have the Greens and the SSP. I think that a third left wing group is perhaps gilding the lily.
Before the whole fall out from Sheridan, the SSP were a lively bunch who were winning seats. The left needs to come together if it is to recapture that momentum.
@Shroderings cat. Have you read the Rev,s reasons for Wings Over Scotlands excistance.
Nice example of rancid The Graun Britnat attack propaganda today.
link to archive.is
“Former SNP leader Alex Salmond holds a copy of The National newspaper during the Scottish independence campaign. Photograph: Murdo MacLeod for the Guardian”
National kicked off a month after the referendum but why let facts n shit get in the UKOK way.
link to facebook.com
Whatever rancid The Graun pay their hacks in their Scotland region, its not enough:D
The Flamester says:
7 January, 2016 at 1:46 pm
O/T Has anyone read this yet
link to cityam.com
Yep, just read that on Yahoo. Amazing how London sees Scotland through London’s eyes.
Scotland will decide when and what’s best for Scotland, not vested interests from London business. Nice pic though!
I see no sign that the small pro-indy parties will provide a more credible opposition than the current lot. The only difference is that they will not shout “SNP Baaaad” before they say “Do the impossible!” as the current lot do.
That is what they seem to be doing in the National anyway.
Rev Stu in Realpolitik fail!
Come on you know full well why they are doing it. Nobody with an ounce of common sense thinks the SNP are not going to sweep the constituencies based on current polling. Therefore there is little point in small parties with scarce funds targeting constituency races, now is there?
You and everyone else is still in a FPTP mindset when this is a PR election where different tactics are in play.
Oh and shame on you denigrating Margot, who stood on the list as a one woman party for the same reasons. Did you attack Margot? If not then you are a hypocrite. Or is it just parties you don’t like or rate who are not allowed to act tactically on the list/
And to all you SNP tribalists I will give my votes where I fucking well please and you can stuff your overblown sense of entitlement with your ‘how dare these people do this to our beloved Party?’ lines. Do you know how stupid and blinkered you look?
O/T.
Prince George has his first day at Montessori nursery.
The TV on Loose Women today,Jane Moore heard commenting on this story just remember that this little boy will one day be King of ENGLAND is she forecasting that Scotland will be independent by then for me it will be a lot sooner than that.I noticed that Andrea Mclean born in Glasgow did not think fit to correct her.
Vote for the Judean People’s Front…or is it the People’s Front of Judea?
No. The job is not yet done. It has to be SNP / SNP.
And to all you SNP tribalists I will give my votes where I fucking well please and you can stuff your overblown sense of entitlement with your ‘how dare these people do this to our beloved Party?’ lines. Do you know how stupid and blinkered you look?
RISE are going to be ruthlessly exploited by BBC, all unionists etc.
Divide and conquer Muscleguy.
@The Flamester at 1:46 p.m.
Thanks for the link.
Is Bernard Jenkin supposed to be clued up on Scottish matters? Because he says, and I quote: “SNP took all but two Scottish seats in the 2015 general election.” Does he know something that we don’t know? Was Fluffy’s recount a fix?
Andrew McLean says:
7 January, 2016 at 12:52 pm
And I should know better but
Thank you Andrew for the response…
Straight off the bat, it wasnt a dig it was a simple query. I can assure you whole heartedly and with utmost sincerity that i am a yes voter, SNP member and a life long independence supporter and i have in fact been arguing with a unionist about his attempt the stir the shit in regards to Mr Salmond and his upcoming radio presenting job. He produced the OSCR link and it was presented by him as evidence of dishonesty by Mr Salmond.
I disagreed but could not explain the report and was asking for help as my rather amateurish attempts at finding out (short of asking Mr Salmond himself) fell somewhat short of an explanation i could counter his argument with. I simply replied in much the same as the last paragraph in my previous post.
If you read my post again but this time without the paranoia you will see it is a straight forward request for information and no, i have never posted here as anyone other than Soda.
Thanks again.
Scotland already has an effective opposition to the SNP. It’s called Westminster.
Together, we will stand, divided we will fall.
dads
no they wouldn’t, if the snp get 45% of the list vote again in may in this region F&MS, there total will be divided by 10, not 9 as in 2011, where they won the 7th seat from the greens by 40 votes
The Green party is a totally legally constituted political party, it is fully entitled to stand candidates wherever it wants, and campaign on behalf of that party
no it wasn’t, from the referendum to the ge, we were fighting to keep the yes campaign alive, not win a party political broadcast. there were many suggestions, Scotland alliance, snp making way for greens and ssp in some seats, the greens and the snp not standing in the ge, etc
while there were disagreements about what was the best method,the goal was the same for everyone. get rid of the unionists.
had voting MRLP been the best way of doing that, I would have been arguing for people vote for them.
it was, and still is, nothing to do with policies or even politics, the yes campaign is still running, god know project fear is still going, and until we gain our independence, there is no political parties or policies, I will support any position that furthers that goal of independence, in/out eu, nato, trident, the queen, i couldnt give a fuck, cos until we get our independence, Scotland doesn’t have any politics, England decides for us
Food For Though.
There’s a Plaque incerted on the wall of Holyrood R/Mile
Its easier tae throw a Stane at a Politician in HOLYROOD
Than tae throw a Stane at a Politician in London.
Or words to that effect,but the message is easely understood.
Not being a Member of any Political Party I Campain solely for Independence & Scotlands People SNP 1 & 2 .
Totally off topic. The UKOK Paradise is going to get hit by a quadruple whammy but of course it is all the fault of Johnny foreigner and the Jocks who cant get their shit together.
The BBC must have been having paroxysms of orgasmic delight at the global economic forecasts as they soften us up for deeper and more savage cuts. 6 weeks is such a long time in politics, well it was only that long ago that Osborne and the neo Fascist Brit Press and Media were telling us that the World and UKOK had ben saved for all time.
I think we should ALL FOCUS on working our way through a set of short term aims to achieve the long term objective ….. INDEPENDENCE.
To do so ALL pro-Independence supporters, of whatever hue, should vote SNP/SNP in May.
All pro-Independence supporters should vote to stay in the EU in the hope that it pushes support to over 60%, helps to trigger another Referendum and achieve our Independence. Some (and I reiterate ‘some’) former staunch no voters, such as the rUK relocators, may also vote for Independence at this juncture.
When we do get our Independence vote for your preferred Party such as Rise, Greens or whatever.
Then call for in / out EU and Monarchy Referendums.
On topic this time. Scotland already has a rabid and organised opposition. It is called the Bwitish Press and Media.
@muscleguy.
Do what you will. I will vote SNP X2 for sound ,valid reasons.
The Flamester @ 1.46. Thanks for the link.
Bernard Jenkins seems to think he knows all about the way we Scots think and act. Sad really. Strange how the view from London is so far from the reality.
I think that he will find that it’s for us to decide about the next referendum, not Westminster. For once I think wee Willie Hague is correct, if Scotland is dragged out of the EU against our wishes it will spell the end of their precious union.
As some wee woman, somewhere once said, bring it on. Wonder what happened to her?
To muscleguy
You must have been reading different posts to me!
No one was being party tribal or blindly calling for support for their beloved party.
The call was to keep united and send a clear message. Scotland and the people who chose to live here come first.
No message went out telling you how to vote. The posts were simple and clear on the priority of independence.
I don’t understand how a constructed arguement becomes an instruction.
I like many others wish we had a YES party – but we don’t!
ronnie anderson says:
“Its easier tae throw a Stane at a Politician in HOLYROOD
Than tae throw a Stane at a Politician in London.
Or words to that effect”
Therein lies one of the main reasons for Indy. Perhaps politicians should be considered to be like enemies – best to keep them close – as another saying advises!
One thing is certain. When Indy comes, our politicians and governments are going to be scrutinised and held to account like none have ever been before on these Isles!
Scotland now has an extremely politics savvy population! We will be watching their ever move!
JGedd at 1:34 p.m.
Interesting comment. Some points in reply.
First, remember that the SNP is the Scottish National Party, not the Scottish Nationalist Party. So you could vote for or be a member of the SNP without being a nationalist.
Second, what is wrong with being a nationalist? The Oxford Dictionary offers alternative definitions of nationalism but the one I like is “Advocacy of political independence for a particular country” and they use Scottish Nationalism as an example.
You say you are not a nationalist so I believe you. But you do seem to meet the definition above. There would be nothing to be ashamed of if you were a nationalist – it is not a dirty word.
Jings, where there shall be harmony or something discord. Eh.
@Muscelguy
Vote for who you like, your vote is not wasted. It’s your vote.
@Soda
I took your posting as a straight one, had a look, but the records only go back to 2011. In the time since there’s been about £8,000 expenditure more than receipts, so either there was residual income in the bank before 2011, or there is other money somewhere. It’s quite possible too that although the Trust is the main vehicle, Salmond finances things out of his own pocket rather than go through the hoops, or gives to other charities. Who knows!
@cat
I’ve put the mathematical situation and it’s correct, fully. I did divide by 10, not 9, hence if you look back at my figures why 51.2% becomes 5.12%!!!!!!!
But it’s uniform swing, every region, every consituency can have local factors which can give them a greater or lesser swing, for every single party.
As for parties, after we get Indy I’ll not be a member of any party. I’ll vote no longer for an Indy supporting party, because we’ll have Indy. Who knows, I might even vote for the Monster Raving Loony Party though, to be honest, having had a look at their website a year or two ago, they have some really nasty policies on there.
Until then I also put policies second, but then I’m not a political party, they have to have policies or they’re not a political party, as Labour found out to their cost, and the LibDems too, whose only policy was to try to get ministerial positions.
Re. Kier Hardie. Wasn’t he a bit “blood and soil” and that? A “working class leaders” who’s total embrace of empire and all things One Nation Britain, meant Young England (‘socialist’ Conservatives) and the Tory right, didn’t really have to worry about ideological attacks from the ‘left’. The Fabians, after all, were managerial rather than radical.
The more things change….
link to robintilbrook.blogspot.co.uk
As Robert suggests, Keir Hardie was absorbed by the Establishment, though I’m not sure if I can admire a man who fervantly supported the empire. That’s a very funny type of socialist, IMO. An English Socialist!
I would very much like to see a grouping of left wing parties in the Scottish parliament. AFTER we become independent.
I “hae mah doots” about RISE though.
Its worth remembering that the SSP had, what, 6 or 7 MSPs? and successfully championed causes which weren’t a priority for the bigger parties. They could have built on that good start, they had some excellent, capable people. Instead they imploded – split the left wing vote and lost all their seats.
Its often been said that the British Establishment infiltrate these left wing parties and sow dissent from within.
Looks like that’s exactly what’s happening here. RISE can’t get any MSPs on the first preference as they don’t have the support.
What they can do is split the left wing vote, taking 2nd preference votes which,(based on current polling), would have otherwise ensured an SNP or SNP/Green majority.
This splitting of left voters will help no one but the unionist parties.
We’re stuck with this rotten system for the moment, until we gain Independence.
I can’t see any other way of doing that than SNP 1st and 2nd preference
Sorry, I couldn’t resist. My Bad. 🙂
@Muscelguy
Vote for who you like, your vote is not wasted. It’s your vote.
Red and blue tory unionist BBC/msm attacking SNP with RISE too, is the whole point.
It all segways into red and blue tory attack on SNP Scots.gov NOT fixing the economy, building new houses, raising slave wages, extortionate home energy costs, you name it, with Westminster’s 70% fiscal control of their Scotland region.
Muscleguy, get in the sea! but only up to your knees:D
Or, as torygirl sockpuppet Ruth Davidson kept stating unchallenged, throughout their vote NO or else Project Fearing, “the money comes up from London.”
Some of my very brief thoughts on RISE:
1. It was the Radical Independence movement (married to all the individual efforts, first and foremost being the WBB and Wingers) which took us from 30% to 45%. If we had relied on the Official Yes Campaign, its lacklustre leadership, poor literature/website, ineffective interviews by leading SNP people, we would not have got above 33%…. and indy would have been put to bed for 100 years.
2. The SNP carried the torch through the wilderness years of 10%.
3. The Scotland we all want to see is, I think, one where the minister for social justice will be someone with the passion of Tommy Sheridan, with a special mandate to tackle and END forever child poverty in our oil-rich nation.
4. The YES movement should be attracting more “real” conservatives, those who want to stand on their own two feet, who want Labour chased out of Scotland forever, who want to do international business by flying not through London, live in a major capital city like Edinburgh, earn money in a petrocurrency like the Scottish £, those who are appalled at the Scottish Tories being a WM front led by someone who gets up to shenanigans at every election (indyref1 – broke law, GE2015 – implied SNP heavies stopping folks voting in Fluffy’s dead-heat constituency).
In short: there is a place for everyone in the YES movement and there should be NAE, I repeat NAE bickering (oops, almost wrote “bevying”) in the indy movement.*
[* RISE and Solidarity campaigned for the SNP in GE2015, do they have to haud their wheesht at EVERY election? Give them a chance — only I would ask them to withdraw in places like the Borders, Northern Isles, Morningside]
Mmm, the one thing I add is that after Indy we will need a strong parliament to steer us through the first 4 or 5 years (hopefully we’ll be back to 4 year election cycles). And as long as Swinney is still going, he’s got my vote for the financials, and I must admit Sturgeon has mine also for the international stuff.
United we stand divided we fall!
The object of the unionists and the selfish is to keep the enlightened from educating the scared and selfish. 2 votes for independence. Then we can set up the system that we, all the people of SCOTLAND want and vote for. It’s called democracy, something that Westminster and the elite are totally against.
ENGERLANDS way of controlling the colonies has always been DIVIDE AND CONTROL. Backed up by extreme violence when required.
Both votes for freedom. DO NOT BE CONNED AGAIN!
O/T
If you want to persuade people (particularly those who run a mile when you mention Indy scot or the SNP) of the ineptitude of the last 3 decades on governance in the UK I reckon this video is a good place to start. David graeber does a very good short video about government surpluses (the core belief of the Tory animal) and how they relate to the rest of the economy. It’s a very simple but powerful..
link to archive.is
Soda says: 2:29 pm
And I should know better but Straight off the bat, if I have offended then apologies, but it is a tactic of trolls to post links that have no relation or completely disprove the accusations made, all the information you required was available in the links you yourself supplied hence my scepticism.
As for paranoia, regardless of lifelong commitment or like me a convert on the road to Damascus, my paranoia has actually saved my skin on more than one occasion, so I see it as a friend not a hindrance!
Feel free to use my previous post to berate the master-debater you are conversing with. What you have said makes him sound like a bottom feeder so shouldn’t be a problem for you.
Thanks for your comment TD.
I was trying to keep my comment brief. So to explain, I didn’t think that “Nationalist” is a dirty word. If I had thought it so abhorrent I don’t think I could have brought myself to vote SNP, even as a tactical vote.
I started out as a Labour voter, like many people here, but became more and more disgruntled with Labour’s increasingly pusillanimous defence of socialism. Blair finished it off completely for me.
On moving to the south west of Scotland about thirty seven years ago, I found myself in a constituency with a strong SNP presence and the best chance of keeping out the Tory party. What I was trying to explain was that independence was not then a priority for me, but keeping out Tories was.
Eventually I came to the conclusion that the direction of travel in England was going to ensure Tory or Tory-lite governments in Westminster for the future, so I became convinced that independence had become the most important priority for Scotland, if we were at least to save the community of Scotland from that fate. So without breaking stride I continued voting SNP, but never at any time did I feel that I had to swallow my conscience to do so.
There I hope I have explained myself. I was trying to save boring everyone with a full explanation of my thinking but it seems I inadvertently caused offence. Sorry about that, and also sorry for boring everyone with the longer post I tried to avoid!
JGedd 3:30 p.m.
You certainly did not cause me any offence and thanks for the summary of the journey you have been on. My main point was that there is nothing wrong with being a nationalist and if we regard ourselves as nationalists we should do so with pride. Nationalism is respectable and we should not let unionists hijack the term and use it as an insult.
I wish that the terms “list” and “preference” were not used, in terms of the Holyrood election.
If you’re on the electoral roll, you get two votes. You vote for the candidate you want to represent your constituency and you vote for the party that you want to represent your region.
The only “preference” involved is that you’re voting for the individual you prefer and the party you prefer. Your regional vote is not, for example, a ‘second preference’.
To repeat: you have a constituency vote and a regional vote.
Lists are compiled by parties to put their candidates for the region into a pecking order. Only party members have a vote to elect candidates onto the list.
Non-party members do not have a list vote – they have a constituency vote and a regional vote.
Colour me ‘Proud Pedant’.
@ Robert Peffers
I agree with your conclusion about the SNP and with your diagnosis of what went wrong with LABOUR, regarding becoming a UK party. It’s otherwise a very Hardie centric view
I believe Robert Cunninghame Graham was more responsible for the original move to set up Scottish Labour and as President was pictured with Hardie on the original membership cards. As the first socialist mp and later first SNP President he is well worthy of inclusion in your narrative.
I reckon I can guess where muscleguys muscles are
Do what you like with your second vote muscleguy, dig your heels in, ignore the evidence, keep a Scotland divided, you go for it kiddo.
OT ORB poll UK
43% leave
36% stay
21% dk
… Bring it on, Cameron! IndyRef2 looking closer every day.
The spurious reasons for RISE’s existence ring claxons and bells.
If we had secured independence again I’d see nothing wrong in a counter group of like-minded people getting together to provide choice in how society can be organised for the greatest benefit to the greatest number of people. Before independence smacks of political naivety, dumb stupidity, divide and rule, and MI5.
The biggest problem is that most people see the Regional or List Vote vote as a second choice vote,
out of the nearly 3 million voters in Scotland how many understand the Additional Member System,which is different from the Single Transferable Vote system used in Local government elections and the First past the Post system in UK elections,
and how many know how the 2nd or Party vote is calculated using the The D’Hondt Formula – which penalises high gains in the constituency vote,
try asking family or friends,9 out of 10 will not understand and will think 2nd vote is for your second choice.
Apology accepted in good grace Andrew and i know what you mean mate. I tend to play along with any suspicious posting and it usually becomes quite evident pretty quickly as to their real intentions.
Anyway, it would appear the convo with the unionist died after i i pointed out that if there was anything in his accusation the press would be all over it already and my suggestion that unless he could provide substantive evidence then he was just being a bit of a shit stirrer lol
Cheers anyway all the best.
A few years ago I stood in front of the Danish Parliament and the guide said that when the people inside did things they, the people outside did not like they stood there and told them so. I want the same for my country and the only way I see it happening is with presently the SNP. Should they fail we can try elsewhere but right now only one party can achieve it.
We have a lot of johnny come lately Partys who may be quite sincere but I have yet to be convinced, sorry the SSP fought like Labour among themselves to eject their Leader, I trust them not at all, and I fear that the Greens would sell Scotland out for spurious Green reasons.
Scot Finlayson
out of the nearly 3 million voters in Scotland how many understand the Additional Member System
most of them seem to be on this thread today
It always was , and always will , mmmmm I feel a song coming on , like many Wingers of my generation be SNP x Forever.
SNP x 2 again then.
@heedtracker says: 7 January, 2016 at 3:04 pm:
” … as torygirl sockpuppet Ruth Davidson kept stating unchallenged, throughout their vote NO or else Project Fearing, ‘the money comes up from London’.”
“
There really is no problem of, “The money coming up from London”, heedtracker.
The problem seems to be mainly due to the stop the money makes at the end of the money’s first leg of the return journey it makes from Scotland to London on a return ticket.
Like the Kelty Clippie the London Conductor punches the ticket twice and says, “cummon get aff”.
CameronB Brodie says: “Sorry, I couldn’t resist. My Bad. :)”
Not at all, I had a good laugh at your Keir Hardie comment. There’s nothing like watching a sacred cow get slaughtered of an afternoon. 🙂
Keir Hardie was a man of his times. In them days, openly opposing imperialism could have got you hanged for sedition… or excluded from politics at least. And niceties about multiculturalism hadn’t been dreamed up yet. So I don’t think you should write off his achievements because of an occasional bit of forelock tugging or casual racism. … but, anyway.
@ schrodingers cat
What would be your recommendation for our seat of NE Fife?
Constituency vote – SNP
List vote – Alternative YES party
Maybe see you next Friday 15th and discuss over a pint.
I was thinking about starting my own party and I thought I’d call it “Indy Bandwagon Party” a party for all to jump on experienced and non experienced people welcome with positions open on every topic, just pick the one you like and off we’ll go and stand for election
Then I thought about it again and realised I’d have to stand against the SNP and I don’t want to do that for two reasons
1: I vote for them because I like them and I’m a member
2: The SNP that once was a struggling party of dedicated protesters trying to wrest control of our country back for all of us is not that party anymore
Over the years they have learned and grown and built the most powerful political machine in Scotland, if not in Britain so to stand against them with my new “Indy Bandwagon Party” would be like resisting the “Borg” futile
The Starship SNP can now at will descend at warp speed and destroy all before them if they so choose but at the moment they do not choose because they, like all of us want allies not enemies, so join the Federation friends it’s really OK
But for my wee new party I don’t want to be Photon Torpedoed worse than Kezia and Willie and Ruthless every single day of my life for money because it’s No Anuff Tae make me do it, I’ll just leave it to Admiral Sturgeon and First Officer Swinney
Even the new Junior ensigns are frightening like Mhairi Black (who received yet another round of applause from all sides of the house this morning and the Speaker never stopped it” Och you know the rest
Live long and prosper
I predict that The National (The Herald’s cash cow) will be promoting the list vote for RISE or The Greens.
Anything to reduce the SNP vote.
It doesn’t matter if the list vote results in a list seat for the SNP or not. Vote SNP+SNP to push the total SNP vote to 60% or more.
Only a strong SNP majority government can give us a second referendum and independence.
Patrick Harvie and others would hold the SNP to ransom if they got the balance of power.
@james
while it is unfortunate that there isn’t a single alternative option for the list vote, because the list vote is a pr vote then if people in F&MS vote for eg, greens and rise, then it could lessen the effectiveness but not cancel it out all together.
also james, F&MS is the region your list vote counts towards, not NEF, and as you well know, fife is sometimes called a mini Scotland, eg, red forthsiders in the south, libdems in the north etc so it is unlikely that everyone in the region will opt for the same alternate vote. the region of Glasgow is more, homogenious.
I think a snp1 greens2 will pay the most dividend, as it will lift the green vote from 10k to 15k and above wullie rennie, however, we would still need another 15,000 supporters voting for either the greens or rise to ensure wullie rennie loses his seat
‘I predict that The National (The Herald’s cash cow) will be promoting the list vote for RISE or The Greens.’
I know everyone has their own opinion on The National, for me the jury is still out.
Depending how they go with your angle, will go a long way to telling me what I need to know.
That’s not actually true. They are voting in two separate elections. Say, is it my imagination or was there NO-ONE saying “F*ck you, Greens and Socialists, we don’t want your vote” BEFORE May 2015? It’s only AFTERWARDS we’ve decided they should be derided for voting the way they want. I wonder if they’ll ‘loan the SNP their vote’ the next time? Hmmm.
“That’s not actually true. They are voting in two separate elections. Say, is it my imagination or was there NO-ONE saying “F*ck you, Greens and Socialists, we don’t want your vote” BEFORE May 2015? It’s only AFTERWARDS we’ve decided they should be derided for voting the way they want. I wonder if they’ll ‘loan the SNP their vote’ the next time? Hmmm.”
Nobody’s deriding anyone. Nobody’s saying “don’t vote Green or RISE”.
Scunterbunnet
I do try not to judge the past against current values and norms, but I can’t help but see British Labour as having been shaped to form part of the One Nation British Empire Establishment, right from the start. Remember, their constitution was written by the Fabians, who supported imperialism. Indeed, Viscount Milner, a prominent Fabian and probably one of the most influential men of his time, was a self-declared English nationalist and imperialist.
Re’ achievements. Might not the post-war settlement have been the minimum required to prevent revolution and maintain cohesion throughout the Commonwealth (the confederated ’empire’)?
Anyway, hope you also got a giggle from the link to the English Democrats. 😉
@Helena Brown
“I fear that the Greens would sell Scotland out for spurious Green reasons.”
Too right. Never forget that the Westminster Green Party (independent from but affiliated with the Scottish Greens) voted against SNP ammendements to the Scotland Bill. They can raffle themselves as far as I’m concerned.
IndyRef2 needs SNP 1 & 2.
Like the Kelty Clippie the London Conductor punches the ticket twice and says, “cummon get aff”.
It is UKOK bonkers listening to UKOK unionists ragin away at a Holyrood that has 30% fiscal control. My Slovene girlfriend and future Lord Tomkinski explains it all here
link to notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com
Just one more chancer on the make for sure but my Slovene girlfriend explains clearly here how The Vow, Smith Commission, Scotland bill is designed to take life out of the SNP and Scottish independence with as much economic damage as possible.
And to cap it all, we’ll have to now endure tory hard core UKOK unionists, from far right pervs at the Heil, #SNPouters, BBC Scotland, STV, Jacky Bird etc, all campaigning for RISE.
Madasfcuk.com
This is illogical nonsense, reverend Stu. And it indicates how desperate the anti strategic vote argument is becoming when even your good self resorts to such sophistry.
The second vote (regional list vote)does not cancel out the first unless it is used to do so i.e. voting for an indpendence party with vote 1 and then a unionist party with vote 2, or voting Tory with vote 1 and Labour with vote 2.
The strategic appeal is not an appeal to SNP voters. It is an appeal to all Yes voters. It says the following ‘based on all opinion poll evidence it is possible for YES voters, in May, by voting SNP in every constituency and by voting, (according to personal prefernce for one of the smaller pro-indy parties (Solidarity, Rise or Greens) on the regional list, it is possible to elect both a pro-independence Government and a significantly increased pro-independence position on the opposition benches, whilst also reducing unionist representation. This improves the overall position for YESin any future referendum debate
This, of course, may or may not happen – but the logic (on current polling evidence is surely irrefutable. Now, I don’t deny for a moment that there are other ppoitical considerations that may come into voters minds. Some aapparently, just don’t accept that supporting indy parties other than the SNP ‘helps’ independence. I don’t agree with such a view, but I can realise it’s there and respect democracy. There are also policy differences between the SNP and the other pro-indy parties. Solidarity wants to extend the moratorium on fracking to an outright ban, for instance, and Rise wants a maximum as well as a minimum wage. These all might be perfectly good reasons for chosing either to vote SNP 1 & 2 or SNP 1 & Solidarity, Rise Greens 2.
What voting strategically from a YES perspective does not do, is cancel out your first vote for the SNP. That vote counts to elect an MSP of the biggest pro-independence party in your constituency, and (on current polling) the SNP back into Government.
When I go into the polling both to vote SNP in Inverness in my constituency, I do not, in any sense, cancel out that vote by then voting for Solidarity on the list. What I will have done is voted for a pro-indy Government (in probability) and a pro-indy socialist opposition MSP (in hope).
I put it to you that that is a perfectly logical and principled position to take.
Muscleguy,
“Do you know how stupid and blinkered you look?”
Not as stupid as you do after that post.
The Scottish National Party is exactly that: it is the National Party of Scotland. That means that it represents all facets of Scottish politics because it is the NATIONAL Party. It has on board left wing and right wing members. It has members who want a ‘Green’ Scotland and it has members who are ‘liberal’ in their attitudes. All these different political attitudes have come together and buried their differences with one view in mind: to achieve an independent Scotland.
We do not need an independence supporting left wing party called RISE or anything else; the SNP already has people who are left wing minded within its membership. Voting for Rise is political naivety at best and a con trick at worst, and it should be given the heave ho until we get our independence.
I find it incomprehensible that we should have come to the stage where our independence and ancient freedoms are within grasp only for some people to jeopardise our efforts because of some half baked reasons that seem to make sense only to themselves.
link to caltonjock.com
@CameronB
I agree, British Labour Party is nothing but the left wing of the Establishment, and has been for a long time. But I’d give Keir Hardie and the ILP the benefit of the doubt: they were doing their best under the circumstances.
And yes, the postwar settlement was a sop to prevent real socialism.
And no, I can’t see the funny side of the English Democrats.
Is independence in the SNP manifesto for the Holyrood election?. If not why not?.
Rock@4.53
And I predict that whatever the National does, you will continue to denigrate it, although you say you would never read it.
I also predict that you will continue to call readers of the National gullible fools.
You are really getting boring with your obsession.
This is the paper which has printed articles by everyone from Nicola to Cat Boyd. I support their judgement. Or perhaps they are gullible too
Sorry this has nothing to do with RISE but it is too good NOT to link to.
This is a link to the Labour branch office explaining away their *cough* plans regarding the £3,000 to new first time house buyers.
p.s. look out for the cracker statement on page 2.
just 28% of those aged 16 – 34 in Scotland now own their own home. 😀
I am sorry … no seriously, I really am sorry for laughing here cause I know that owning your own home is a very challenging thing to do but SERIOUSLY house owners in Scotland from age 16 upwards???
I once owned a house but it took be until I was in my 30’s before I could aford to buy it. So, seriously, where on earth are all these 16 – 30 year olds getting their down payments from?
link to immersive.sh
“Caw caw caw mooooo”.
Sorry, just trying out being gullible.
Oops!
I forgot to warn folks to keep a keen look out for the now inevitable and regular repetition of the “we’ll use the savings from NOT cutting A.P.D.!” line. (page 7) 😀
Scunterbunnet
But there ‘nationalists’ just like us.
Em, maybe not. 😉
“It is a core belief of modern Toryism that power should be driven down to communities, not hoarded at the top”
Just read carpet bagger Tomkins latest UKOK North British blog thingee. Modern toryism savaged the living day lights out of YES Scotland, then did the same to Scottish devo anything, keep pumping any git in to the trough for life house of lords, grovel to royals etc but here we are, a toryboy unionist tubthumping/assuming we’re all morons.
@Lesley-Anne
link to immersive.sh
The website that the SLabbers are using is called ‘immersive.sh’… they missed out ‘it’ at the end
I brought this subject up on a previous post a few weeks ago.
Much as I respect RISE, it has to be SNPx2.
When Independence comes, RISE can run Scotland, if that is the wish of the Scottish people.
It’s not necessarily daft to say what RISE are saying.
In a democracy, oppositions generally form in order to oppose the ruling party, and eventually they’ll take over from them. From time to time, the opposition parties can be so useless that people start thinking that the ruling party will rule forever, but eventually the parties will reinvent themselves or get replaced by new and better parties.
In other words, the SNP will not rule forever (and I’m saying that as an SNP member). Eventually some opposition party will find an effective and appealing way to oppose them.
Now, this opposition party could either be one of the Unionist ones (no matter how clueless they seem to be at the moment), or it could be another pro-independence party (e.g., the Greens or RISE).
Personally I very much hope the party that will one day oppose the SNP successfully will be pro-independence, because it would mean that there’ll basically be a Nationalist consensus in Scotland where being Unionist is weird (just like there used to be a Unionist consensus in the Labour-Tory days).
I can therefore understand why many pro-independence voters will want to support the SNP with one vote while trying to build up a pro-independence opposition with the other vote, even if I’ll personally give both my votes to the SNP.
immersive.sh
Ironic that the Labour party uses a website with the country code top level domain of “sh” for St. Helena, a British Overseas Territory with a population of just 4,300, and where Napoleon was exiled to. Most fitting.
The Rough Bounds
I find it incomprehensible that we should have come to the stage where our independence and ancient freedoms are within grasp only for some people to jeopardise our efforts because of some half baked reasons that seem to make sense only to themselves.
here RB, I am not half baked, having been in the snp since I was 16, 35 years, I was campaigning for indy when you still thought the fuckin spice girls were pretty cool. the point being made is not to get rise or the greens elected, but to stop the unionists winning seats, if you cant make sense of it, that’s your problem. you should try before throwing insults at others who do understand whats happening
btw, I predicted 50+ snp seats on 23rd sept 2014, I also predicted the vote share for all of the unionist parties in Scotland in may within 0.1%. that is because I do understand the system
In other words, the SNP will not rule forever (and I’m saying that as an SNP member). Eventually some opposition party will find an effective and appealing way to oppose them.
If the SNP lose, that’s end of Scottish independence, for a long long time, in a galaxy far far away.
For the life of me, I cannot understand why RISE are doing this.
There are around 20% of voters who still say they’ll vote for Scottish Labour out there, many of whom hate the SNP. SLAB, by all accounts, is softening on independence so that should not be a deal breaker in RISE’s attempts to woo these voters, who must be crying out for a credible alternative to the parade of numpties they are presented with in the SLAB leadership. RISE should be targeting them with a credible alternative Left message, not the SNP vote!
I haven’t done the sums but even if they took just a third of those voters they would win some seats, surely. And we would have additional pro-indy MSPs – everybody wins.
As others have said here, it is deeply, deeply suspicious that the ONLY beneficiaries of RISE’s current tactics would be the Unionists – and the UK State.
Thoughts on RISE?
…. Tumbleweed ….
No has any thoughts on RISE.
SNP x 2 🙂
@The Rough Bounds 5.36
I agree with you.
Sick to death of debating this on web sites today. Make no mistake, there is a huge push by Rise to get SNP 2nd votes.
I have always voted SNP (52 years). I am more left and Green, but happy within the party with “to the rights”and “to the lefts”.
I most definitely would not vote for Patrick Harvey who is Indy, sometimes maybe.
All the left parties can bide their time and after Independence things change and I might consider voting for one of them. They have to do their time though. Work their way through the councils and show folk that we can trust them.
Until then it’s SNP/SNP for me!
@ muscleguy
‘Roid Rage’?
Quakeawake says:
“20% of voters who still say they’ll vote for Scottish Labour out there, many of whom hate the SNP. … RISE should be targeting them with a credible alternative Left message”
For me, the fact that Rise don’t seem to be starting with the obvious, rings alarm bells.
As SLab disintegrate, leaving traditional socialists in search of a home, why aren’t Rise going straight for them as a matter of priority? They seem to be missing their best opportunity.
@Quakeawake
If RISE took 1/3rd of Labour votes, they’d take 1 list seat in Central, Glasgow, Lothians, Mid Scotland & Fife, South of Scotland and West of Scotland = 6 seats, all at the expense of Labour. Based on that December TNS poll.
In Central, because of the dropped Labour vote, the SNP would take 2 list seats instead of 1, so the effect of RISE taking Labour votes would be win-win for RISE and SNP.
H&I Lab would lose one more seat, taken either by SNP or Greens. NE Scotland, Lab lose one more seat to the SNP.
So if RISE successfully target Labour, that’s 9 less Labour MSPs. This is not an exact science and I need to get a life! Well, any excuse apart from getting down to that work 🙁
face it, outwith Glasgow and surrounding areas RISE will be lucky to get their deposit back as voters are not as socialist as them.
Before we get independence then its a no brainer SNP x2, then after vote for whoever the hell you want be it RISE/SSP or god forbid Tory, but until independence then we cant risk splitting the vote
@yesindyref2 Thanks for that good work at the abacus!
It won’t be wasted because I’m thinking I’ll drop Cat Boyd a line or two on this. She makes sense, mostly, in the National and I’m curious…
It’s actually incredible how quickly RISE has become so ‘known’ in the mainstream press etc. Are they getting more coverage than SNP press releases?
That in itself engenders a slight raising of suspicion, if the media are flattering them they are being used. It’s not difficult to then see, that they are merely being promoted to disadvantage the SNP by potentially splitting the vote.
They have to know their star is not rising because of tangible policies etc, but because they are quite probably being used to stop the true rising of an Independent Scotland.
The SNP are the vehicle, now get in the fucking car, and let’s go…all for one and one for all…till we get to THE destination, then everyone out and play, till then gies peace. ?
? = 🙂 (android schmandroid)
Rise’s leadership strategy of specifically targeting SNP votes and crabbing SNP rather reveals where their priorities lie.
Their own political careers and personal furtherance come before Scotland’s pursuit of independence.
Sounds all too familiar to me.
Whether M15 have got to them I’m not sure,but they will certainly be used by same for all they are worth.
K1 7:19, well said.
In close seats, polls can be twisted, tactics encouraged and malaise can go undetected.
TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED.
First vote to elect our government.
Second vote for Independence, to make sure.
WE’RE ALREADY ON THE SAME SIDE RIGHT NOW.
The YES camp must stay united.
Well said JGedd. I have always been a proud Scottish Nationalist.
SNPx2 🙂
@ Scunterbunnet 6.06 ( 28% of 16 to 34 yr olds now own their own home )Jackie Baillie’s left her fingerprints aw er that piece. Er 16 olds, whit school did the go tae,doesent gel with they’re claims that Scottish Education is shit.
…sorry, I meant TD in reply to JGedd.
Apologies.
Wuffing Dug
Exactly. Only we know who they are… sort of.
O/T
@ Rock says at 4:53 pm ”I predict that The National (The Herald’s cash cow) will be promoting the list vote for RISE or The Greens. Anything to reduce the SNP vote …… Only a strong SNP majority government can give us a second referendum and independence.”
I can’t figure you out Rock. On the one hand you seem keen on Scotland becoming Independent but on the other hand constantly criticize The National.
Practically everyone is in agreement that the greatest obstacle to achieving Independence is the corrupt unionist media (CUM). We now have a daily newspaper, for the first time ever, that supports Independence; publishes data that you wont find in any other newspaper and brilliant articles by individuals such as Weegingerdug and Gordon MacIntyre Kemp (to name but a few). The National acts as a platform for them to impart important information, as the corrupt unionist media wont entertain them. It stands to reason then that with rising sales our chances of getting our Independence improve. Not rocket science!
This newspaper is in its infancy and is going from strength to strength, brilliant imo (now have a Scottish history section too .. great), but to say that it’s the Heralds ‘cash cow’ borders on the ridiculous.
I’m actually beginning to wonder if you want Independence at all Rock? Wonder if you’ve actually ever read the newspaper at all? If not you should think of doing so if for no other reason than to undermine and peeve off the SCUM.
Nationals latest tweet, coincidence or not.
Link One_Scot?
Here we are:link to mobile.twitter.com
It is just The Nationals Twitter page,
link to twitter.com
But it looks like the exact article they ran 12 hours ago.
SNP x 2, don’t get aff the bus.
Off topic
I am feeling a little bit smug this evening, at hearing Algy Cluff are abandoning plans to set fire to the coal under the Forth, and taking their largesse off to England, poor sods.
I have argued and fought for months with the naysayers and slaggers of SNP.
Cluff cite the SGs announcement to extend the moratorium up until 2017, as a key reason, in other words, a hostile environment.
I have been heavily involved with my local anti fracking group, but due to the absolute hostility and slander to the SG, I have taken a step back.
There is no way we would be this far forward without SNP. Meantime, Tories will ramp up, and make cracking far easier down south.
And so it begins.
Cat Boyd said it was a “privilege” to have been selected
Cat Boyd tops Glasgow list as Rise names contenders for regional challenge
JANUARY 7TH, 2016 – 12:11 AM ANDREW LEARMONTH 24 COMMENTS
SCOTLAND’S newest left-wing party Rise have put SSP chief Colin Fox, National columnist Cat Boyd and former SNP MSP Jean Urquhart at the top of their regional lists for May.
Regards Rise.
Way to go folks. Split the vote and lose a grip on the goal.
The formation of Rise stinks of Security Services manipulation. Useful idiots.
The only way is SNP x 2
Ah, got it, it looks like they are looping their stories, Spok will be up next.
We should not be looking at motgages more like it,we should be looking to build good solid affordable homes for this/next generation thereby releasing our kids from an entanglement/imprisonment with banks,anyone that can come up with a good solution would surely be taken very seriously,I can,t get my head around houses at £350 00 + they are up and ready after a month or so,somebody,s making a pile.
The time to sort this out has passed. Did the Scottish greens, ssp, RIC and the SNP get together to firm a yes umbrella group after the indy ref? They did not.
We all decried the unionist tactical voting campaign- I see no reason to risk succumbing to their failed tactics.
If you believe in green policies or RISE policies and hate the SNP vote for them but unless we all vote RISE or green on the list it could well be wasted.
An SNP popular majority is the signal we need to kick off the next independence campaign.
This discussion is kind of redundant- start with policies rather than tactics.
The Cuthberts got back to me on the bar nett formula suspension in the 80’s – positive response without promising any action. No response from Pete Wishart as yet. Might have to do this myself and put something to Stu and the National. Which is not going to happen tonight.
Peace
O/T
Just wow. Just read Lesley Riddoch’s rather bizarrely negative, somewhat contradictory (see that word, tory, again) article in the National.
What with A.Salmond being accused of, ‘back in 2013’, ‘conceiving it as a ‘military campaign’ with no time for luxuries like reflection or disagreement’, and the now the SNP are using the whole idea to secure votes, while ‘headlining on independence deflects important questions about their role in office’.
Really? Are we talking about a unionist, pro austerity, attacking the poorest and don’t give a fck about the people party? It sounds like it. Ok, can Lesley now enlighten us as to what she means by ‘important questions’?
What utter tosh, much of the article is badly thought out, not backed up by anything concrete and making claims about the SNP which don’t stand up. I am very disappointed as I saw Lesley speak a couple of times in 2014.
She was clearly no friend of the SNP, fine, but now seems to be making sweeping, inaccurate statements about them, while saying ‘the plummeting oil price gives N. Sturgeon a serious economic challenge’. WTF Lesley!
Probably many here will have read the article, so you will know what I mean.
O/T
@ Valerie says at 8:25 pm ”I am feeling a little bit smug this evening, at hearing Algy Cluff are abandoning plans to set fire to the coal under the Forth, and taking their largesse off to England, poor sods ….. I have been heavily involved with my local anti fracking group, but due to the absolute hostility and slander to the SG, I have taken a step back. There is no way we would be this far forward without SNP. Meantime, Tories will ramp up, and make cracking far easier down south.”
That’s GREAT news for you Valerie (thumbs up) and of course for all anti-frackers in Scotland in general. Fracking is my number one reason for supporting the SNP … after Independence that is and it really annoys me that so MANY companies have been awarded licenses, by fat cat Westminster, to frack in Scotland ….. waiting patiently like vultures ready to swoop down and decimate our beautiful country.
O/T
I see that the BBCs … Pacific Quay .. bill for taxis last year amounted to £740,000. Unbelievable and high time we all cracked down on them. In fact I’d be interested to know how much money they get in total and how is spent such as on programmes, wages etc.
O/T Fairly missing Nana and her brilliant posts. Anyone heard from her?
ArtyHetty says:
” Just read Lesley Riddoch’s rather bizarrely negative, somewhat contradictory article in the National.”
Aye. Lot’s of woolly unsubstantiated opinions. Piss poor, not to mince words. LR is usually more reasoned and informative in her writing. We all have bad days!
@ Flower of Scotland
Agreed they must show us they are capable in our councils before they can be trusted to be in our parliament,they have to understand we the majority of the yes movement have a plan ,the SNP will be the benefactors of this plan not just because they are for independence but because they have shown they are competent.
I think some have got ideas above their station due to getting a little bit of fame and its gone to their heads and frankly will do them no favours in the eyes of their fellow independence seeking comrades.
Hehe and a belated Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year wingers my computer went on the blink.
The only place for tactical voting is in the constituency and only where you believe that your prefered party have little to no chance of winning and the party you choose instead will. The regional vote is a banker so you should always vote with your there.
Whilst there’s always a chance that the 2016 election will be a rerun of the GE and the SNP secure a majority it’s by no means certain. Even so the results of the “PR” vote is going to be important in making any majority convincing. It has to be as high as possible and over 50% .
Assume HM security forces have been infiltrating and gathering “intelligence” on all us “rebellious Scots” for a long time. I am sure their minds and activities have moved up a couple of gears over the last few years.
Our new head of police Scotland has been exposed to “secret political skulduggery” in his past employment I believe. So he was a good choice for WESTMINSTER. Lucky old Westminster.
Anyway don’t be surprised at anything these tubes throw at us, they are capable of ANYTHING, just look at the history books they are very proud of what they did all over the globe. You won’t have to go back very far.
If Cat Boyd is so keen on a Holyrood seat what was stopping her from joining the SNP and like Mairi Black geting somewhere & actually using her talents. She’ll spend her best years carping from the sidelines & getting naeplace!
@Schrodingers cat. 6.15pm.
Dear S.C. I did not accuse you of being half baked. I wrote ”half baked reasons”. Also, I have never thought ‘the f…… Spice Girls were pretty cool’ as you put it. You presume rashly. You are certainly to be applauded for having been a member of the SNP for 35 years. I personally joined the SNP in 1962, and that was 54 years ago. What’s next? Do we measure the length of our dicks?
Oops! I presume too much; you may be female.
Well done on predicting the number of SNP seats at over 50 and also well done on predicting the unionist vote share at the election to within 0.1%. That is indeed extraordinary and quite remarkable. Some would say wonderful.
I think you will get to the top of RISE very quickly: very, very, very quickly indeed. But as you are obviously an intelligent person (though apt, it appears, to make rash judgements about people) I don’t think you should bother taking a piece with you.
Glad you got a positive response from the Cuthberts Tam, pity no follow up from Pete, so far. Can’t believe there is no interest beyond our ‘shores’ here on Wings regarding the total deceitful and lying invisible screwing of our country admitted by both George Younger and Malcolm Rifkind in those released papers.
You may have to dae it Tam. It needs wide circulation and we are all gonna have to print out and leaflet this information in the lead up to May. They are still ‘at it’, no reason to think otherwise. There’s no enough years left on the the planet to uncover the great wrongs that have been foisted upon us by that mendacious Westminister establishment.
No the night…as ye say…the morra? 🙂 (jist joking’)
I think we should all be helping RISE to take over from Labour as the left-wing opposition in Scotland (not that Labour has been remotely left-wing for aeons, of course). That is the Scotland we want. An opposition with principles, not some stooges run by a foreign capital complicit in hiding our oil wealth (economic potential), running us down, attacking the disabled, launching illegal wars and even stealing our sea water!
On the subject of the Scottish left…. well well well…. some VERY interesting information just been put up on Craig Murray’s blog… So much for Murdoch v BBC…. they are linked much closer than we think, when the link is Jackie Bird…
“I personally witnessed in court in Edinburgh last month Tommy Sheridan, with no lawyer (he has no money) arguing against a seven man Murdoch legal team including three QCs, that a letter from the husband of Jackie Bird of BBC Scotland should be admitted in evidence. Bird was working for Murdoch and suggested in his letter that a witness should be ‘got out of the country’ to avoid giving evidence. The bias exhibited by the leading judge I found astonishing beyond belief. I was the only media in the court.”
@ Kenny, was it not the ex-husband of Jackie Bird? we cannae blame her for everythin!
@ Tam Jardine -glad to hear about the Cuthberts’ response and that you will be persevering with your researches. Very worth while IMO.
Watched some of the debate in Westminster esp. Mhairi Black’s excellent speech. The SNP are not letting the Unionists relax. So it is SNP x 2 for me although I would like to see some Greens, RISE and SSP in Holyrood. Fortunately, I don’t have that dilemma.
Re The Lesley Riddoch article I thought it was pretty good! Here’s how I saw it.
The first 3 paragraphs are just setting the scene for the rest of the article and can more or less be ignored maybe with the exception of the very first sentence:
“SO, Indy is back. To the surprise of almost everyone except Nicola Sturgeon’s inner circle”
Bollocks, of course Independence had to remain “at the heart” of any SNP campaign.
Next 2 paragraphs give a bit of history about the start of Indy1. Riddoch states this announcement by Sturgeon is “very shrewd timing” and of course it is as far as I am concerned.
Even reading posts on Wings in recent times you could feel the tension due to the fear that the SNP were putting Independence on the back burner for now. All a ploy and a good one.
“Alex Salmond conceived of it as a military campaign, with no time for luxuries like reflection or disagreement.”
Of course he did, I haven’t bothered searching for a quote or a direct statement but I would be more than 90% certain that one exists. There was no time to muck about with detail, all or nothing.
I’ll just post a few quotes from the rest of the article:
“Spending on Trident’s replacement has already begun and changes to welfare and benefit rules have caused the suicide of scores of hopeless, lonely people. If Scotland stands for anything, it opposes this heartless, market-driven dogma.”
Can’t see much wrong with that point of view.
“What better time to be pointing out that independence would mean we could be making some tough but very different choices right now? Of course, the plummeting oil price gives Nicola Sturgeon a serious economic challenge, but since Indyref2 is probably still years off, she has time to devise and lay out an alternative economic strategy.”
Who would deny that with oil at $30 rather than $100 means a loss of billions to an Scottish exchequer? It does, so there would be a “more” serious economic challenge than otherwise would have been the case.
“Headlining on independence not only deflects important questions about their record in office, it bolsters the SNP vote, acting like a giant reset button to galvanise activists, deter drifters and stop supporters backing the Greens or Rise with their all-important second or list votes.”
All true, now the media will go apeshit about holding a second referendum which will weaken their pathetic attacks on Health, Education and Policing.
I saw nothing wrong with the article, it was her view, her comment and obviously will not be to everyones taste.
Hey, if we all loved the same flavour of ice-cream then their would only be Vanilla. Tasting something different can be a joy.
Wee bit of handbag waving going on I see – hope Brian Doonthetoon’s point at 3:40 is being taken on board by everyone.
There is no mandate in Scotland for renewing Trident, for Mr Osborne’s failing austerity experiment,increasing the nos of children living in poverty and for those families bordering poverty.
There is no mandate in Scotland for the privatisation of the NHS(this is when the NHS budget using public funds is sliced up and awarded to private companies supported within a legal framework voted for by many of those who stand to gain from the acquisition of such contracts -aka NHS England and the Health and Social Care Act 2012) and general reduction of state provision and social support.
There is no mandate to bomb Syria in a complex messy conflict where at least 200000-300000 (mostly civilians) have died many of whom are children,2 million (mostly civilians) have sustained injuries of varying severity and 11 million people have been displaced with numerous cities in ruins. We will continue then to witness a population die by torture, barrel bombs,chemical weapons,starvation, drowning within a dynamic of continuous and mutually reinforcing escalation.
There is a mandate for growing our economy using all levers of power, for Scotland to be energy self sufficient, for sustaining state provision-perhaps following the Nordic economic model adapted for a Scottish context. Scotland could be a force for peace and not conflict with a localised and accessible government that is open to critical appraisal of its policies and still works for the common good.
This can be stated with confidence because we have a democratically elected government who is steering Scotland in a different direction to the WM elite who are sailing UKOK towards an iceberg that will crash UKOK’s ‘financial recovery’. But the UKOK elite will vacate that particular sinking ship whilst the 99% will remain as 3rd class citizens-without the hope of a lifeboat.
We should vote for our party of independence in May, it is not a step into the unknown it is the next step in the progressive walk towards independence.
I think it’s just too soon for RISE. Yes we need ‘credible’ opposition, but that’s after Independence, obviously. I can’t really understand why they are pushing this line anyway…now…in the lead up to May.
It has to have an element of ego in it, surely…as Fred said above, Cat Boyd was fab during Indyref, she could have easily stepped into a seat and got stuck in, like Mhairi. There’s nae point in being ‘radical’ from the sidelines, and let us be clear, radical in Scotland as part of the so called Union, is to be an Independence supporter, it’s our ‘norm’ but it’s the Union’s definition of ‘radical’ and that’s why they fight it.
The nuanced step would be for RISE to encourage their followers to vote for the SNP to ensure the pressure is kept on in agitating for Independence…at the same time growing their base from the point of view of their policy agenda in light of how Scotland’s political landscape may look after Independence.
In 2017 they can put people forward for the council levels and really gain experience on the ‘street’ level, again building up to a significant party that the electorate ‘recognise’ as effective in administration, by the time Independence comes, they could be a recognised and credible alternative to what would be the mainstream SNP.
But right now, I just don’t get it, it’s like an own goal, they are in danger of already forming a legacy of being the vote splitters that ensure that the SNP don’t form a majority in Holyrood, and if they don’t have a majority then we are all fucked. Including RISE, they will sink like a stone and never be forgiven for this, by the wider Independence Movement.
I wish Cat Boyd or anyone who is a member of RISE in a position to speak for the party, would come on Wings and explain it to us all.
Explain how this help us gain our Independence at this critical junction in Scotland journey, explain why you think voting for RISE won’t cause a vote split? Never mind all the tactical pish, just explain the reasoning in plain terms, of how you can be sure that your push for prominence at this time is not utterly counter intuitive and counter productive in ensuring the pressure is maintained and turned up to boiling under the arses of the Unionists…by having a majority SNP government in place at Holyrood?
Even Tommy Sheridan gets that. (like him or not, he said to all his followers, vote SNP last May)
Paula Rose says:
7 January, 2016 at 10:14 pm
Wee bit of handbag waving going on I see – hope Brian Doonthetoon’s point at 3:40 is being taken on board by everyone.
What did he say?
@Scott Finlayson
“how many know how the 2nd or Party vote is calculated using the The D’Hondt Formula – which penalises high gains in the constituency vote”
Quite a lot of people on here know how it is calculated, it isn’t a complicated calculation. However, not a many seem to understand how that pans out over the full range of options.
At least judging by the utter nonsense produced by many on both sides of the argument.
Those of us who have looked at the full range of possibilities over the years do understand how it works and how it can be exploited by a multi-party election strategy.
Here is how it works.
For SNP 1 & 2
Starting from an SNP vote of 30% say(don’t think anyone would envisage less than this).
As the SNP vote gets higher than this there will be more FPTP SNP MSPs and less List SNP MSPS but with a total SNP MSP count higher as the vote grows.
This goes on until you get to around the 54% mark when all, or nearly every FPTP seat is SNP and List SNP MSPs are minimised. Minimised meaning possibly zero but more likely in the low single figure range.
Past this point as the SNP 1 & 2 vote increases further through 60%, 70% etc. the SNP List MSPs will start to increase in number.
Clearly 100% SNP would return only SNP MSPs.
But this would happen well before 100% is reached, probably at around 85%-90% SNP since not every non SNP voter will vote for the same List party in a region (unless they have a very strong electoral pact).
For SNP 1 & Other(s) 2
Best result in terms of maxmising total indy MSPs would be for two other pro indy parties to receive an evenly split vote 2.
But it is complicated mostly by the percentage of SNP 1 vote that is reallocated on vote 2.
100% allocated 50:50 to two other parties would produce the most spectacular increase in total indy supporting MSPs in the range 30%-60% SNP 1.
I first calculated split vote 2 effects way back around 2003 when a viable Left and Greens pro indy option still existed.
Sufficient pro indy MSPs could have been elected to Holyrood with an SNP 1 vote (reallocated for vote 2) as low as the high 30’s range. Yes, really.
But, of course, that would have required a strict electoral pact between the indy parties and a very large compliance by the pro-indy electorate.
And that is the problem. For any such strategy to work, there has to be inter party agreements and a strong promotion of the strategy with a high degree of compliance by the electorate.
Something which needs a high degree of willing on all sides.
For example, for the present level of support for the SNP from polls, you would need to get to a situation where 40%+ of their vote 1 reallocated for vote 2. Below that, you would really just be replacing SNP MSPs with Greens or pro -indy Left MSPs (mainly Greens given the relative base support).
The total, still would not increase noticeably even at 40% reallocation.
Above 50% of SNP 1 reallocation and you start to make real gains in total pro indy MSPs.
It is even possible, in some smaller percentage reallocations, given regional and vote vagaries to end up with a slightly smaller total of pro indy MSPs than if everyone voted SNP 1 & 2.
But much less of a likelihood than some would have you believe.
So any SNP1 Others 2 policy would have had to have had pre inter party agreement and would need to have been strongly promoted.
AND would need to have begun circa June last year.
However it quickly became apparent that that required degree of willing did not exist. The window of opportunity closed and since then the only viable option from an indy standpoint is
SNP 1&2.
Yes, it is a pity, because a few percentage points fall for the SNP between now and May could spell disaster and a properly orchestrated split Vote 2 could have provided a good measure of insurance against this in terms of total pro-indy MSPs.
Two major problems with it for the SNP were the increased liklihood that they would not have whip-able majority and the moral effect on their List nominees. Both very understandable.
But it is way, way too late to do anything about that and we must all now get behind promoting SNP 1&2 and hope they gain a majority in Holyrood.
As I said, there is a slight danger that small movements from SNP1 to Other 2 could even produce 1-3 Less total pro indy MSPs depending on regional predelictions and split vagaries.
Given the indicated range of SNP support a split vote 2 strategy would have made statistical sense in terms of providing insurance for a pro-indref2 majority, but the willing was not there to carry it through to effective levels.
So we are where we are.
SNP 1&2, fingers crossed.
What is happening to Tommy Sheridan is a disgrace. The Crown Office is a Law unto itself. Tommy Sheridan committed no crime. Murdoch did. The biggest criminal on the planet . Illegally hacked, bribed public officials. A tax evading Non Dom who was illegally and secretly given Press ownership by Thatcher’s illegal interference. She then lied and denied it.
Harold Evans, ex Times, wrote an article recently about Thatcher’s duplicity when the papers were released last year under the 30 year rule. NI are liars. Murdoch should be in jail, along with his sythopants. If Coulson had told the truth Tommy Sheridan would not have be found guilty. The ‘Press’ can rot.
More lies are coming out about Libya/Blair and the ‘Press’ involvement and their lies for the disgusting corrupt Westminster Unionists politicians.
O/T We were all talking a wee while back about George Orwell and Scotland, but I think we can all agree that he got it very right in the title of one book in particular… “Homage to Catalonia”!
Hi heedtracker.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Rise will fall. If people want to waste their vote it is up to them. Just don’t feel sorry after. Vote NO you get nothing. Wasted votes do not count. How do people want to feel after. Feel.
Looks like the Wings dam has just burst! LOL
IMO like most folk on here is vote for whom you want.
The problem I have with RISE is their attack on SNP policies – not that I agree with all SNP – and not Lab.
Today Common Space ran three articles criticising the SNP on eg land reform timidity, again I don’t disagree but I want indy and the SNP are the ONLY party that can deliver that.
So I don’t support RISE and also Andy Grogan who worked very hard with LFI has left them to stand for SSP.
Again my opinion and no one elses, the ‘left’ always seem to fall apart with in-fighting, indy is close but not close enough
Best way to stop an SNP majority at Holyrood is to split the Indy vote.
In a straight Indy vs Union fight, the Indy vote will lose, just.
But with the Union vote split into 3, the single party which will pool the Indy vote will win.
SNP/SNP all the way.
Fred, I have nae idea about the marital status of the Auld Waxwork. By the way, I do know that Cat Boyd actually once was asked the question why she did not stand for Parliament, I cannae quite remember her answer and do not want to misquote her, but I think she prefers being on the frontline, giving direct help to trade unionists, etc. Just as there are “six ways to Sunday”, there are more ways than one to be politically active and working towards creating a better and fairer Scotland.
Catalonia is not voting for Independence. The Press made it up, to try to discredit Scottish Independence. Use it as a false flag. 2.4million out of 7.5million, with resident EU citizens not allowed to vote. Just vote RISE and see what happens. Another Press false flag. Right into their barrow.
@ Kenny at 9:53 …… Tommy Sheridan
Very interesting Kenny. Thanks for that. Will have to check out Craig Murrays site now.
Some GREAT posts on here …. too many to mention.
OT but maybe relevant after all.
You’re maybe right not to trust the left-left. In Catalonia unless there’s last-minute fireworks (still hoping), it seems that, as well as some bad mistakes by the independence movement, a radical left party claiming to be independentist, with a casting vote on the investiture of the next government, has just killed off Catalan independence hopes.
Claiming in their election candidature to be the fast-stream way to independence and social justice in one go, they’ve now prioritised Spain-wide social revolution (Podemos) and ditched independence, having conned many impatient independence voters, using their votes to bring down the traditional independence parties instead of investing their presidential candidate. New elections bode ill for the traditional independence movement.
Spain isn’t the UK, but does this sound familiar to anyone from what’s happening in Scotland? If so, beware, left-left has divided loyalties and involves some procedures and people you would be well advised to study in detail before trusting them with your vote. They could use it against you too.
O/T
Did anyone else see the article on the internet today, regarding Israelis refusing to fly on a Greek plane from Athens because they demanded that 2 Palestinians be removed.
They accused the innocent Palestinians of being terrorists.
The Greek airline removed the said Palestinians and put them up in a hotel, and then a later flight.
This story seems to have disappeared from the media news.
“Israel the new Nazis”.(sue me)
@thingy @7.48
Do they know who they are?
An opportunistic artificial construct is my take.
RISE? FFS
Thought given.
Now back to….
SNP x 2 🙂
Brian Doonthetoon says:
7 January, 2016 at 10:34 pm
Hi heedtracker.
Nice. It doesn’t get any more straight forward than that.
RISE should target voters who do not/will not vote SNP. There are plenty of them about.
As we all know fully well the good old BBC is politically NEUTRAL … right? 😉
link to alittleecon.wordpress.com
Marga at 10.54pm
There’s a livestream skype conversation on Independence Live giving the latest on Catalonia’s woes. Recorded earlier today.
link to independencelive.net
@Quakeawake
If RISE worked it out themselves, and targetted Labour votes, they could perhaps get help from however many of the 115,000 SNP members go campaigning. Along the lines of someone saying “I’ve had enough of Labour but hate the SNP”. Well then, vote RISE or Green.
As it is with this “a list vote for the SNP is wasted”, they’re totally hacking off most of the 115,000 SNP members.
Ooops!
Missing post at 11:00.
Ach well it’s my own fault trying to be too smart for my own good … AGAIN! 😀
@Ken500 (10.28) –
I always read your comments with interest, and admire the way you succinctly outline the sheer scale of what we’re up against – there are certain BTUKOK crimes which we all forget from time to time, and you provide a great service in issuing regular reminders.
However – 🙂 – along with several other regulars you are not well informed about Tommy Sheridan. I recommend Alan McCombes’s ‘Downfall’ (Birlinn, 2010) for the boak-inducing truth about the man and what he did.
I’ve been biting my tongue all day, reading this thread. It’s very seldom that WOS has any dedicated discussion of the “pro-indy left” (as Rev calls them above) and whenever we do it ends up in a slanging match with tired old stereotypes being wheeled out yet again. These arguments erupt because we haven’t all accessed and digested the same information.
Many SSP members/supporters are perplexed and angry right now – ‘our’ party has suddenly become all-but invisible after years of hard slog to rebuild it after the carnage wrought by you-know-who.
There’s no excuse for anyone with a serious interest in what’s happening in Scottish politics not to be aware of what Tommy Sheridan is all about – it’s testament to the passion of his supporters that the TS ‘myth’ has persisted, but that doesn’t make it any less of a canard.
I hope fellow Wingers will accept the following in the spirit with which it is offered – I’ve never known the man personally and I’m not into character assassination, but this lingering lie that ‘Oor Tommy’ was somehow ‘wronged’ must be challenged, no matter how unpleasant the process may be.
Reader reviews of ‘Downfall’ by Alan McCombes –
link to amazon.co.uk
Important background information on TS and the damage he caused, in Kevin Williamson’s resignation letter (2006) –
link to myresignationletterfromthessp.blogspot.co.uk
Tam Jardine, can I suggest you copy your correspendence re Cuthberts and Pete W to also include Chris Law, Dundee MP. He is also on the Scot Affairs Comm. I know him and I would suggest he would indeed look at this.
@ Kenny
I heard Cat Boyd respond to being asked whether she would stand for Westminster by saying it would be like a 5-year prison sentence. That’s a pretty unambiguous rejection of the idea. I’m sure I’m not misquoting her because I was there when she said it, at the Edinburgh Radical Book Fair in 2014.
Robert Louis at 10.53 says it for me…..
To get a second referendum it has to be SNP 1 & 2
Crazycat, yes, that is how I remember it now you have said it!
@ Phronesis
Plain,simple and true.Respect!
Paula Rose: Wee bit of handbag waving going on I see
I haven’t read the posts in question, but with respect, can we drop that infantile cliché?
It’s a comment guaranteed to infuriate the participants rather than douse flames.
Debating opponents are always serious when making their point clear, no matter how repetitious, over-emphatic, or boring observers think they are. There’s nothing more annoying than a third person entering the fray as referee reducing their time and effort to that of spoilt kids fighting over a toy.
‘I heard Cat Boyd respond to being asked whether she would stand for Westminster by saying it would be like a 5-year prison sentence’
Will it not be a prison sentence if elected to the Holyrood parliament…or was it just Westminster she was referring to?
Ian…thanks for that information, I admit to being completely disengaged regarding the Tommy Sheridan court case et al, so really just picked up on snippets here and there at the time, but haven’t ‘delved’ into the nitty gritty of the split within SSP and his central role in causing this etc.
I’ll get the kindle version of that book you linked to, to gain a better understanding of this. Cheers.
@GB –
Hoping to catch your eye if you’re around…
Anent your ‘Christmas Tree Files’ posts, many threads ago now (but fairly recently)…if I recall correctly, those comments came at the end of a long thread and were not carried on, as they deserved.
I suspect it’s a subject which many of us would prefer not to dwell on, but it’s surely at the very crux of what this site is all about.
Just curious – in your opinion, would it be a worthwhile/productive exercise for willing Wingers to submit simultaneous FOI requests to the BBC for data they may have on ‘us’ right now?
@ K1
I’d have thought so, but perhaps she was thinking about having to live in London, or cope with Westminster’s style, or has just changed her mind in the intervening year and a bit.
I guess the ideal to work for would be 78 SNP MSPs, 12 Green, 6 RISE including Cat Boyd and Colin Fox, Tommy Sheridan, and a few other assorted bods with 2 LibDems to keep each other company.
Yer affy kind yesindyref2…’..with 2 LibDems to keep each other company.’ 😉
Ian Brotherhood at 11.20
Thanks.
I note that Allan Grogan has resigned from the committee of SSP citing internal stress in RISE which he believes the SSP should not have joined.
I will be surprised if RISE makes it to the election as a coherent organisation.
@K1
I know, must be still full of the Christmas spirit. Mind you, neither would be Oor Wullie, out of the TNS poll predicted 1 Constituency MSP and 3 list, he’s left on his pail head in hand.
@Tam
I hope the Cuthberts take it in hand, good stuff.
@Margaret, 10.54
That is pretty upsetting.
I would really urge pro Indy voters to think hard before they consider voting other than SNP x 2.
Look how many years experience and hard work its taken seasoned SNP to get us this far. Meantime, their record stands up well to scrutiny.
The point has been made, why are these folk not trying their hand at local level next year? It’s not the easiest jumping in at Scottish level to do politics, and there is a certain skill to it, if you are doing it right.
You have to know how a gov’t bureaucracy works, the right time to battle and not, how to handle professional officers to achieve your aim.
They could be building their name, party and policies etc. There statements to date are woolly to say the least.
Campaigning for Yes is an entirely different prospect to serving the electorate if you mean to do it right.
It’s a democracy, but I can’t see how this cul de sac helps our goal of independence.
Ian: “would it be a worthwhile/productive exercise for willing Wingers to submit simultaneous FOI requests to the BBC for data they may have on ‘us’ right now?
Yes, is the swift, direct answer.
I remember making that remark about the Xmas trees. Some months back I had a long talk socially with the former respected head of BBC World Radio John Tusa. He had arrived at a sad point in his life witnessing everything he had built up disintegrate and destroyed by successive Thatcherite BBC bosses, Birt, Grade, et al.
As the evening progressed I mentioned my anger at seeing the black listing of employees too left-wing or too Scottish nationalist, and how appalled I was to see MI5 employees strolling about the building and masquerading as journalists. I was looking for some acknowledgment, even a nod of his head, that he too had suffered the same monkey on his back.
Until that moment the conversation was warm and convivial as we swapped anecdotes and expressed political attitudes. He went silent. He just stared at me, a familiar BBC executive diplomacy kicking in. He didn’t know me well enough to open out. I thought his silence spoke volumes.
I signed a contract with the BBC but refused to sign the Official Secret’s Act. This got me my first black star.
The BBC is a nation state unto itself.
It breathes its own rarefied air, it feeds off itself, it is insular, self-protecting, and self-healing when wounded.
It casts dissidents out into the cold and blocks them thereafter. It’s incestuous, it’s lazy, it’s own worst enemy. It’s governed by strident unionists.
It’s autocratic with an inner life unseen by the public (until Savile) of employees back-biting, having affairs, grabbing unethical opportunities, fighting colleagues for better resources or creative freedoms.
It’s all those things.
@Marga, @Valerie
It is indeed absolutely vital to have a clear SNP majority, and if it’s not more than 2011, the media will be all over it claiming that the SNP bandwagon has halted, is shedding wheels, and that Independence is dead in the water.
I think there were a few hangers on with the Indy cause, people with their own agenda,, their own ambitions. They’ll pay lip-service to Indy when it suits them, and drop it like a hot potato when it doesn’t. I’m not going to name them though.
[…] is put forward by Stuart (ok Stuart?) Campbell in “Some very brief thoughts on RISE” (link to wingsoverscotland.com) Rather than try to precis his argument, I will just reproduce it here, because it is very […]
Back and forth and forward and back, this party that party, whom ever’s preference
Until Independence there’s only one party gets to decide anything and that’s the Tories so the answer’s simples innit
You vote for the party who’s capable of delivering what you want
And there can be only one
@GB –
‘Swift and direct’…and then some. (!)
This is serious stuff, and requires some thought…
Off to think about it, but thanks aplenty for such a positive response to what has heretofore been a nebulous daydream.
Do I really want to see what they have on me, and other folk I know who’ve been politely chapping on the doors of various BBC ‘creative’ departments for years, nay decades?
Hmmm…I think, actually, I do.
Anyone else?
If so, let’s do it.
Whenever I hear of pro-Scottish splinter groups I see that vision in ‘Braveheart’, the betrayal in the last battle, when Wallace has the upper-hand, looks to his barons on the hill on horseback to give their promised support and charge towards the enemies troops, but is appalled to see them turn their steeds away from the scene, each one duly bribed by the English king.
Has anything changed since that moment?
Re RISE/SSP/GREEN/OTHER..etc
Interesting discussion on here tonight.
We must trust the depth and variety of the SNP members and representatives to carry the day.
There are many existing SNP diehards, of all colours, who will, eventually,form much of any new left/green parties, post-independence.
Socialism has been PROTECTED by the SNP.
Without independence the SNP can only fine-tune the pocket-money we get back from our overbearing abusive partner.
The ‘much’ fairer society will come after, once INDEPENDENCE CREATES A TRUE DEMOCRATIC PARLIAMENT..
Within the constitutional framework we are in opposition.
Single issue resignations etc are unfortunate but inevitable within a broad church.
Groups within groups are fine for local needs when some action requires tact and vice versa.
I have both sympathy and respect for anti-nato-trident resignations AND the SNP for facing up to responsible democratic fundamentals (diddily)
THE MEASURE OF RISE, WILL BE ITS STYLE OF CAMPAIGNING, IF THEY ARE NEGATIVE THEY WILL ONLY APPEAL TO STUBBORN LABOUR TYPES.
They are not for me at this crucial next step…
Independence should appeal to all people of principle.
Politics after independence SHOULD TAKE PLACE AFTER INDEPENDENCE, stupid.
The ‘much’ fairer society will come after, once INDEPENDENCE CREATES A TRUE DEMOCRATIC PARLIAMENT
fuck a fairer society, the whole point of this thread, (woosh as it goes over yer hied) is not to elect tommy Sheridan, colin fox or Patrick Harvey so we can sit in a circle and sing fuckin’ koombayah,
the point is to maximise our vote to keep wullie rennie, prof Tompkins out of holyrood
wake up at the back there!!
Grouse Beater
Whenever I hear of pro-Scottish splinter groups I see that vision in ‘Braveheart’, the betrayal in the last battle….
stop it gb, yer coming over all walter scottish now, we’ll ging awa’ tae bide awa’ until it brings a tear tae a glass, so it would
🙂
Dads says:
It is indeed absolutely vital to have a clear SNP majority, and if it’s not more than 2011….
the reason the swingometer broke in may is because the London media compared 2015 with 2010
indeed, many on here after the ref did exactly the same, some on wings going as far as to say the snp should not waste time canvassing in Kirkcaldy and cowdenbeath because Gordon brown had such a large majority.
it was me who pointed out that a holyrood election in 2011, 10 months after the 2010 GE showed quite clearly that labour were defending a 300 majority in Gordon browns seat. why do you think he retired?
getting many more seats in a holyrood election than the snp did in 2011 is virtually impossible with the holyrood electoral system, eg, 68 in 2011, 72 in 2016. what will change is the map. I have a metal pin map of the 2011 result, indeed, salmond made Cameron sign the Edinburgh agreement under a poster of the 2011 result map. Remember?. the only thing that will change is the colour of the map, it will be all yellow. and that is what the papers will report, not that the snp gained 4 more msps than in 2011
Something which needs a high degree of willing on all sides.
spot on Chic Murray, a correct assessment of what is being argued here and why it has failed. it would have required a concerted effort to make it happen, after the rev said no the idea died
one of the other reason this idea is failing is the actions of the greens and the ssp
ian brotherhood, it may come as a surprise to the 20 or so members in the ssp but no one in the snp or the rest of Scotland cares who is fuckin who in the ssp. the ssp are only world famous in their own lunch time. this entire idea is based on replacing the unionists list msps with other indy supporting msps, on the premise(correctly) that regardless of their actual policies , they would be better that kez, rennie and Baillie. the reason people wanted this to happen was nothing to do with politics, the snp or Sheridan or the ssp or the greens. we were doing it for the indy campaign, a goal which is far above any political party or politician. no one asked you to join sheridans scout group, the ssp was asked to come together, to facilitate the process and give the yes suopporters a single option to vote for. the ssp couldn’t even do that, where there was 2 parties, there are now 3.
this project may well have failed because of james Kelly and the rev, but the ssp is also to blame. people don’t trust you. frankly, I don’t blame them
Despite leaning towards socialism (although I have no objection to people earning a decent crust), the problem with the left is that it has always been full of “trendy lefties”. (remember that photo of Flipper?)
Back in the seventies, the Social Secretary at Newcastle Uni was one of those. Led all the student demos to London, shared a platform with Harold Wilson at the Durham Big Meeting (Miner’s Gala) and then daddy picked him up in his Roller at the end of term.
There are too many egos in Rise. The National verdict for me is on thin ice in that respect, although I continue to buy it in the meantime. Some of it’s front covers are eyecatching which is refreshing and certainly has an impact.
My main problem with socialism is that it recognises a class system, but that appears to be a particularly inherent trait in these islands. In Germany, it was commonplace for the bank manager to sit and get pissed with the street sweeper, and I personally had the privilege of getting rat arsed with the Minister for La Poste in France. He was a normal bloke. Can you imagine a similar situation in this country?
Perhaps we should forget about a minimum or living wage. Instead we should look at imposing a maximum wage. Who needs more than say £iooooo per annum? And before we hear the usual claims of losing the top talent, all I will say to that is bollocks. Many of our best researchers do their work through love of their job.
That however is a debate for the future. Meanwhile it is SNP x 2.
@The Rough Bounds
What’s next? Do we measure the length of our dicks?
dear rb, naw, I would want you gettin’ a complex 🙂
Rob James says:
There are too many egos in Rise.
correct. it wasn’t the yes camp, or the snp or the greens, or ric or the ssp which died on the 19th of September. it was Scotland. the comeback we made in may was great, but Scotland is still on life support in intensive care.
the only way Scotland can be saved is for the people to rise above the petty party political bickering. the ssp have clearly demonstrated they are incapable of rising above their own narrow selfish agenda, not even to save their pwn country. it is unsurprising that james Kelly and the rev, and many others, don’t trust them
Agree with a lot of the comments above.Personally I have no objection to anyone joining the march to independence for this great nation of ours.
1)Having spoken to many “socialists” in my time I was once lectured by Mr Sheridan that they were internationalist not nationalist. (I am not a nationalist either I support independence ).This was at a political hustings where he openly derided the SNP for being in his words insular and narrow minded.
2)The National is in my humble opinion a patsy.It does have some decent articles but I’m just not entirely convinced by it.I always think it has the hint of aye but.Just my opinion mind.
SNP x 2 here in May.
State media control in the UK, Hungary, and now Poland.
The EU isn’t exactly a hotbed of democracy these days. Inevitable consequences for EU referendum in UK in 2016.
“Ignoring the concerns of EU politicians and media freedom groups, the Polish president has secured government control of state radio and TV. The EU Commission has downplayed the move, asking that it not be “overdramatized”. (Reuters/RT)
link to rt.com
@ Rob James.
The minimum wage was an abomination, for all the rhetoric from employers ‘re costing job’s’, it’s real purpose was to supply cheap Labour. To many employers and councils,(if you have ever been involved in the tendering process for service contracts you will know this to be true), stipulate they will pay no more than the minimum wage.
Japan, I read this somewhere,within its constitution, prevents a low wage culture by stipulating that the highest played employee is x times the lowest paid. So if the boss wants a pay rise, everybody gets one.
Even if I am wrong about the above, it seems like a better place to start than stipulating a minimum wage.
@The Isolator… you just contradicted yourself. Quote;”I am not a nationalist either, I support independence.”
NATIONALIST
[nash-uh-nl-ist, nash-nuh-list]
noun
1. A person devoted to nationalism.
2. A member of a political group advocating or fighting for national independence, a strong national government, etc.
Your contradiction is in definition 2.
The Isolator 6:51 a.m.
“I am not a nationalist either I support independence”
Given that one of the Oxford dictionary’s definitions of nationalism is “Advocacy of political independence for a particular country”, I don’t understand your comment.
Schrodinger: There are too many egos in Rise.
Four posts: yer coming over all early morn John King. 🙂
Stating one stands as opponent to the indie party while purporting to be in the same indie camp is a betrayal in itself; people who want their own team, their own power.
Mind you, I expect Scotland to be a hyper multi-party state with lots of splinter groups, at least for a decade after indie is secured.
I know that your brain is not that binary Stu. Its not weird to be United in wanting independence but at the same time want the SNP to be accountable on domestic issues.
Dunno, maybe its just because I live in Scotland.
After Indie it is likely that the SNP shall dominate Scottish politics for a while. Just like Congress Party of India did after their transition from Colonial rule..
Democracy shall eventually dominate.
link to en.wikipedia.org.
An Indian (Keralese) acquaintance referred to them as “Congress-Raj”
For Now, SNP + SNP as vehicle for independence.
If Scotland was a true one-party state the SNP would have established the ‘Scottish National Opposition Party.’ And it would be the only official opposition party.
‘Mind you, I expect Scotland to be a hyper multi-party state with lots of splinter groups, at least for a decade after indie is secured.’
Agreed, the problem wi RISE is it has the potential ‘before indie is secured’ to splinter the Independence movement…which I could well begin to ‘feel’ is actually what it’s ‘function’ is. 🙁
The thing about the Official Secrets Act is that it applies to you regardless of whether you sign an acknowledgement that you’ve read it or not. That’s kind of an important distinction. That said it does include a defence of ignorance which is harder to pull off if you know that you might at some point in your employment gain information of the type covered by the act. News gathering has to be one of the most likely places where that might happen.
So the BBC asking you read the act and sign that you have is a “No shit Sherlock” kind of thing. If they still employ you then it’s reasonable for them to restrict you to areas where there’s a lower risk of being exposed to “Official Secrets”. That might include the pre-briefing for the budget as an example.
If it’s an open secret or rumour that members of MI5 are employed by the BBC then fair enough. However if you know for a fact that they are then it may not be something you can actually acknowledge without breaking the OSA. Asking someone high enough up to know the truth of such an allegation might be considered rude to say the least.
Nationalists are nationalists because they want Scotland to take its place in the international political arena once more.
People proud to be Scottish and and British unconsciously imply they’re happy to be subservient, dragged off to wars contrived by England.
Neither in nor out, so what’s it all about?
Sorry about the flags!
link to archive.is
SNP x 2.
Orri: Official Secrets Act
It’s a blatant gagging order, with the acknowledgement you will be asked to engage in unethical actions from time to time.
I repeat, with the exception of creating a new fighter plane, or working on the patent of a new invention, there is absolutely no reason why any government work should be secret. None whatsoever. They are elected representatives working on behalf of us, accountable to us.
Having read many post on here, I think it is clear that there varying views on how to vote in May, but I think there is also the sense of realisation that if we do want Scotland to be Independent, we need the SNP to be at full strength, because if they are not, then we may find that all of our individual hopes and dreams may never be realised.
Rightly or wrongly, I believe in the saying ‘the greater good’.
Do we really want Scotland to be Independent, or are we happy for it to remain a pipe-dream.
Only time will tell.
Fair enough – but I live (and vote) in Lothian. I think Colin Fox would be a very good addition to the parliament. So I likely will vote SNP – Rise. No real strategic voting just looking at candidates – I don’t think that someone on the SNP list will be as effective a voice in the Parliament.
I worry that the longer a party is in power with an inadequate opposition the more likely it is to lose its way. However not really a worry for SNP because although the other political parties are hopeless it still gets a lot of oppostion from MSM.
SNPx2 because we need a rerun of IndyRef and won’t get one without an SNP majority. They are the only ones I trust to deliver when circumstances are right.
I’ve used the word ‘rerun’ because more and more I’m thinking that’s what it will actually be.
It is becoming clearer every day that the last vote settled nothing. Cameron won with promises he didn’t keep. DevoNotMuch via the Scotland Bill might never be acceptable because of financing, even if it is pathetically less than a NO vote was given for.
So, SNPx2, get a good solid majority and use the Tories behaviour, either specific instances or overall, as a reason to rerun as Indy versus limited devolution with London Tory rule on most things. That should have been the way the first vote was decided, it definitely should be the way the second is presented.
If you trust rise or the SSP you are a fool.
If you think rise or the SSP will ever be anything more than a insignificant part of politics in Scotland you are a fool.
The real shame is Tommy Sheridan, such promise wasted.
He can come back exonerated when Carmichael comes back exonerated.
Political change is often driven by symbolism more than dry numbers.
The first SNP government
The first majority SNP government
The recent SNP landslide victory for Westminster.
We need continuation of the pressure now by staying with the majority Party at Holyrood and achieving very large percentages in both votes.
Unfortunately we have a few individuals who think they are “experts” on statistics and who make it clear that they think that the rest of us are too thick to understand their wisdom.
A) the list vote remains important as nobody can guarantee that the voting intent for the SNP will be maintained until May ( given the media onslaught of SNPbad)
B) The SNP may only hold ground as regards MSPs with a much increased vote but that is a critical signal to Westminster that Independence remains on the table.
Get behind the best placed party to deliver an Independent Scotland. Follow your heart and not some well meaning fool with a spreadsheet.
Ask yourself why RISE is being pushed by the unionist media!
Orri, its not just the BBC who have the boys in, go to any national newspaper, any political party, including very much the SNP.
Grouse Beater
Actually I think there is much, much more you have to add to that list, think of an Independent Scotland, are you suggesting that we wouldn’t have our own sis, and if we did that it wouldn’t work hand in glove with the rump UK, and even the NSA, come on we both know the drill.
Apologies to Brian McHugh and TD above, I meant I wasn’t a nationalist in the context of Sheridan speak.
Red Wedge and the free thinking “Internationalist” is a Socialist get out on the road to an independent Scotland and always has been.
You are correct though I didn’t articulate it very well in my initial post.
Funny how the unionist media are starting to give these wee “alternative” parties, the oxygen of publicity???. Aye right!. Snp x 2.
We must fight to stay in the EU says Gordon Brown, fight with every fibre of our being says Gordon Brown
But not with the SNP they’re Baad says Gordon Brown
Convince people to stay in the EU he shouts as he waves his paws around making fists in the air and banging his hands together
But if England votes to leave well it’s all over because they’re in charge and we’re to wee to do anything about it
So Gordon Browns argument is stay in the EU SNP Baad until England decides
My chest fair puffs out with pride at Gordo’s conviction and loyalty to….. “Feckin England” !!!!
Trini Lopez “If I had a hammer” I would derive a great deal of joy in Feckin hurting that man
OT. Yesterday. Mhairi Black MP adresses the Commons on the inequality of State Pensions for women,and the unfairness to women in the Tory’s proposals.
link to parliamentlive.tv
ALSO Mhairi Black MP was interviewed by Jenni Murray on Radio 4 Woman’s Hour this morning at approx five or ten past ten—–a good hearted interview about the State Pension,and other things lasting about ten minutes.
Should be up on iPlayer later today.
Isn’t it about time we identified a 2016 Parcel of Rogues in descending order and record them for posterity.
1 Gordon Brown
2 Alistair Darling
3 Brian Wilson
4 George Robertson
and so on. Oops they’re all Labour – and so are the next ten on the list.
A top hundred would be very possible with places for Eleanor Bradford and Bonkers Smart.
@ Kenny, I’m a big fan of Cat Boyd, doubtless she has her own agenda but we need young radical Scotland in there, the SNP have had their fingers burnt recruiting rentier candidates, it’s a broad church & it’s up to the young to change the party big-time, the landslide of new members makes this possible. The real problem is this shite list system, losers who have not a chance in hell of a constituency win seek to jump the turnstiles on borrowed votes & the toys are oot the pram when they’re fund-oot.
The Isolator 10:44 a.m.
No need to apologise, but I think there is a need to reclaim the word “nationalist”. Your comment that you were not a nationalist but supported independence raises the suspicion that to be a nationalist is in some way undesirable or not respectable.
Sheridan’s statement that he was an internationalist and not a nationalist implies that the two are incompatible – they are not. It is perfectly logical to favour political independence for a country and to want that country to play its full part in the international community. Indeed, that is what I think most nationalists in Scotland would want to happen.
We should wear the nationalist badge with pride. It is completely respectable to be a nationalist and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
@Dr Jim
Brown is an irrelevance, a proven sell out and tool of the establishment. He’s not fit to wash the feet of the poorest in Scotland. That arse should be begging forgiveness of the population rather than preaching his usual poisoned chalice bollox.
If folk feel like being sheep, they can listen to his brainfarts all they want. If they feel like looking to better their lot and everyone else’s, they’ll find better company to keep these days ready and waiting for them.
We don’t need our ex politicians or indeed our current ones telling us how crap and useless we are.
Happily we’ve got a few that actually believe in our potential. 🙂
Macart @ 11:34
Well said furry face!
We don’t (Them) telling us how crap and useless we are. Happily we’ve got a few (the majority surely?) that actually believe in our potential.
And that sir is the nub! What has the union to offer, nothing nada zilch! Just more of the same into perpetuity!
What can independence offer? Well only the world and everything in it! To be the master of our own destiny!
Those who call themselves Scott’s have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win!
So, we need to encourage these new pro Indy types because the SNP need to be held to account???
That will be because there is no one holding them to account either legitimately, or spinning lies? There is no one raking through all their private affairs, to concoct some empty rant about them?
It’s obviously SNP bad that there isn’t a coherent opposition?
What makes anyone in their wildest dreams think being an ardent Yes campaigner, is suitable grounding to understand the UK and Scottish law and machinery to make you successful opposition?
There’s a reason RISE make woolly statements, like we will tackle bad landlords, with no further explanation.
Yes meant we were out of the EU we were told
No meant we were in the EU
Now they say we might be out we might be in, but it’s OK because we get a vote that we didn’t ask for but are told it’s an offer to us, a choice, to choose in or out
But then they say, well Scotland doesn’t really get a choice because it’s Englands vote that decides the outcome
All Scotlands polls have indicated so far that we would prefer to remain in the EU so WHY are we even taking part in this fiasco at all just because the Tories got scared of UKIP at the General Election and panicked
Isn’t this just an English problem and for them to sort themselves out if our votes don’t count anyway
What happens if it’s Scotlands votes by a squeeze that keeps England in the EU against it’s will
might there not be a little resentment from our cousins in the Sarf when Davie Cameron explains to English voters it was all democratic but basically it was the Scots wot dunnit
Having declined the offer to do business with the ageing whores of the Red/Blue Tories,it is unlikely many voters will have their heads turned,by a flash of thigh from socialist twerkers.
Appreciate the offer,……..another time,in an Independant Scotland….I am sure you will find many suitors…but right now we are too busy.
SNP x 2
@Schrodinger’s Cat 🙂
I sense you may possibly feel an element of betrayal (to logic and statistics) in my advocating SNP 1&2 (since circa August) but in mitigation, most people are not completely logical. fewer still have a good knowledge of statistics and in politics, perception is often, sadly, more important than reality.
Therefore, without enthusiastic top down promotion of the split vote strategy and the time to get the message out there, the strategy, while statistically and logically valid, was doomed.
I believe I intimated that possible/probable outcome to you many months ago along with the possibility that a small percentage reallocations might even produce one or two less total MSPs.
Regarding the left left. As conveyed in my earlier post, the problem they have, as I see it, is that their supporters are political idealogues. A support which by dint of their pursuit of an ideal, demands impossible perfection in its leadership.
Procedurally this puts their leadership in an ideological straightjacket. The are unable to bend in any way, towards a more electable direction. They cannot admit of any mistakes. They cannot even suggest any starting point from whence they can set off towards their ideal which falls even slightly short of it, however temporary.
Until such time as someone with a more pragmatic approach leads the left left, defining their ideology as a goal which may require political pragmatism to obtain, then I fear they will struggle electorially.
But, naturally, none of the leadership contenders want to be the first to put their head above that rampart lest the next candidate who claims political perfection knocks it off.
And there are many candidates.
As such, their leadership will always be vulnerable to those, externally or internally, who would seek to depose them. And unless things change, all too easy for Londonia to fracture and nullify.
The left left have, seemingly innately, built points of fracture into their structure in the past. Whether RISE is just paper over those cracks or the required rebuild remains to be seen and proven.
So for me, it was always going to be primarily the Greens for a potential split vote 2 if the project had taken off.
The antipathy towards the Greens from many of the SNP commentariat caught me genuinely by surprise since it did not reflect my own personal experience of them at all.
But that is all water under the bridge.
Must be SNP 1&2 now.
Oscar Taimes – “it’s my understanding that Podemos were anti-Catalan Indie, which might be why they did so badly in Catalonia but a lot better in the overall Spanish vote.
A better Catalan comparison for Rise may be La CUP who are further left than Junts Pel Sí and have just forced another Catalan vote by refusing to support the center right Artur Mas for president.”
True, but the reason I used Syriza and Podemos was simply because that’s the two parties RISE most like to model themselves on. They use Podemos to try and disprove the idea that you can’t get a new political alliance up and running and winning votes in under a year.
But you’re quite correct, the actions of CUP in Catalonia highlight the risks of the SNP having to rely on support from smaller parties. The one thing we need for another referendum is an SNP majority, so why folk want to put that at risk for the sake of trying to artificially reduce the unionist representation by a handful of seats is beyond me.
If anyone’s still around, nice display of BBC UKOK propaganda boosting another another new unionist party in Scotland, from Pacific Quay, via the master, Ligger Neil.
Didn’t listen to hard but the spokesman ends with, “we’ll have one MSP in May” or something like that. Really nice of the BBC to give so much air time to a new party in their Scotland region. Every little helps.
link to bbc.co.uk
45 mins in, they say the Smith Commission has gone too far and they must save the union.
Come back soon my Slovene girlfriend.
link to abbup.org
Here they are. RISE has competition?
Calm down Schrdingers.Cat.
If I can’t post that we need a fairer future what’s the funking point in anything.
And I am awake, are you.
Chic McGregor @ 12:17
More eloquently put than my offering. At present, Rise, Greens etc are shielded by the fact that the establishment is too preoccupied in it’s task of trying to bring down the SNP. In other words, they are undergoing no scrutiny from the media and are free to spout whatever jibberish they like.(That is not in a literal context)
The SNP on the other hand have had to play a rather long cagey game, taking account of the ramifications from both establishment and electorate. I believe they have handled this well. Mention the word radical to some of our more elderly citizens and they will cast off their zimmers and bolt for the nearest exit.
WOMENS’ PENSIONS. Jack Murphy said at 11:17am:-
” Mhairi Black MP was interviewed by Jenni Murray on Radio 4 Woman’s Hour this morning at approx five or ten past ten—–a good hearted interview about the State Pension,and other things lasting about ten minutes.
Should be up on iPlayer later today.”
The link is now up and running.
BBC iPlayer:-
“When the new flat rate state pension starts in April 2016, thousands of women born in the 1950s won’t be able to access the full amount. 🙁
Mhairi Black, the youngest MP in 350 years has led a House of Commons backbench debate on the issue and joins Jenni [Murray] to discuss her concerns.”
It’s the first item.
link to bbc.co.uk
@ Chic McGregor
your probably right, it would have required a concerted effort on both sides. but the greens and rise have pissed away whatever goodwill they had from the indy supporters. ironic, because the membership of the greens and the ssp also tripled last year. hint, they didn’t come from the better together campaign
I was also taken aback by the way supporters turned on the greens, but we are not in a normal electoral cycle, people are still fighting the indy ref and the rules of the game have changed.
Ron greer and Deborah storr may think they are being clever attacking wos and alex salmond, or Harvey and Lucas opposing the snp FFA motion in westminster or stephen paton opposing the snp scotrail franchise and of course the greens and the ssp standing candidates in the election, but in the political landscape we are now in, genuine criticisms of snp policy are no longer possible. they are seen as direct attacks, not on the snp, or the yes movement, but on scotland, they are seen as just another cog in the on going project fear snpbad campaign.
Scotland is now a party political free zone. people support the snp, not because of their policies, but because they are the best route to independence. If tommy sheridan had been seen as the best route to independence, we would all now be in solidarity.
I did try to warn the greens, and the ssp, Sheridan understood what was at stake and chose the correct course of action, but rise and the greens continued to play the kind of internal party politics which existed prior to the ref and are now paying the price.
I feel betrayed by them, not because they have damaged their own parties, but because they have damaged the yes2indy campaign. And Scotland
@ Doug Daniel
You hit the preverbial nail on the head with the use of the word trying Doug,some need to take a good hard look at the way the system works,just because we created a SNP majority doesnt mean that is what will happen next time and i fully believe if the unionists can muster together more than the SNP they will try to take over as a 3 party coalition,westminster will demand it we cant let that happen.
Never forget yes movement the britnats just love to use the old divide and conquer so lets not get ahead of ourselves there will be space for new politics after independence but not before, the system and the way it is rigged will not allow it,it took us years to squeeze the SNP through the chink in their armour to take control of a parliament that was designed to never let one party have a majority(just as well Labour were piss at everything they couldnt even rig the system properly)
So my advice to all budding wanna be Scottish politicians is this bide your time and support us the yes movement and our plan towards independence if you want a future as a member of our parliament,the plan is simple vote SNP/SNP.
Now 2017 that will be different and will give good experience to the smaller parties if they can join with the SNP in coalition to stop the onions doing it,then we can get a good look at your performance,because you know we just dont want any old idiot getting into our parliament we get enough of that with the onions.
All I know about RISE is from the fairly numerous articles that The National likes to run on them, usually fronted by Cat Boyd. Like many on here I’m conflicted about The National, sometimes it’s support for Independence seems, like Cat Boyd’s, dubious. Other times it’s better and I’m more inclined to think that we’re better with it than without it. Jury’s still out so far as I’m concerned.
From what I’ve seen about them RISE seems to be more interested in promoting pc stuff about wimmin and lgbt than Independence. They can’t possibly be so stupid as to not realise that while Scotland remains stuck in the union they have no real chance of achieving any significant success, but post Independence they (and others) will start to come into their own, but not before.
Therefore they must be fully aware of exactly what they’re doing. If they succeed in their aim of splitting the pro-indy vote do they realise just how profoundly hated they’ll be throughout Scotland?
louis.b.argyll
Calm down Schrdingers.Cat.
If I can’t post that we need a fairer future what’s the funking point in anything.
And I am awake, are you
no I wont calm down and yes I am awake, the funkin point is and always has been, that any discussion or desire, be it a fairer society, membership of nato, the monarchy, trident, the snp,ssp,rise,greens etc, is nothing more than hot air and angelology
our opinions, indeed even our votes, count for nothing, they never have. EVER. we are over ruled by the wishes of English voters
if we had elected 59 fuckin mother teresa mps rather than snp mps, we would still be at war with Syria.
this is the whole point of this article
I have been reading the posts on this subject, checking the latest polling predictions and thinking (dangerous activity).
It looks like other than the SNP there will be no Independence supporting parties standing for constituency seats. Which suggests to me that the SNP will get around 63% of the constituency vote and the Unionists around 37%. This is because if you support Independence and have no one else to vote for but the SNP you will vote SNP on Constituency seats.
Therefore if I wish to minimise the Unionist representation at Holyrood I will vote Independence/Independence and I will vote Regionally for the Greens or Rise depending on who I think has the best chance of winning a List seat and Constituencywise for the SNP.
This will also give me the satisfaction of getting one back at the Tory voters who helped elect our lonesome labour MP.
No doubt some mathematical genius will tell me I have it wrong – but thatis how it seems to me. Vote INDEPENDENCE/INDEPENDENCE.
jcd
If they succeed in their aim of splitting the pro-indy vote do they realise just how profoundly hated they’ll be throughout Scotland?
how can they do this in the constituency vote if they are not standing in the constituencies?
they did in the ge which is why folk in mundells seat loath them
Missed reading Wings yesterday. Arrrgg!
Read Stewart Fraser’s article and would have left a comment on the Common Space site but do not want to give so much presonal detail to join, learned not to that with cold callers.
Sounded pretty passive agressive SNPBAD to me.
Could have taken alot of his comments to pieces.
Simple fact is, to date I have not been attracted to vote for RISE or any other supposedly proindependence party. No other party has convinced me that they want Scottish Independence as much as the SNP. Or that I can trust them or their policies.
To date I have been quietly impressed with the politics of the SNP, how they conduct themselves and how they govern my country. I trust the SNP, based on evidence.
I will be voting SNP/SNP with a clear conscience and a light and hopeful heart!
No other party has convinced me that they want Scottish Independence as much as the SNP.
then I hope you will be happy with a whole pile of slab and tory list msps, cos that’s the choice you have just made
Petra,
“Practically everyone is in agreement that the greatest obstacle to achieving Independence is the corrupt unionist media (CUM).”
And The Herald is part of that ‘CUM’. It would have folded by now if gullible independence supporters hadn’t been giving it a lifeline buy buying its sister paper The National.
The National is nothing more than a cash cow for the venomous Herald.
Otherwise their headline news everyday would be the sort of hard hitting articles the Rev. Stuart Campbell publishes here every day.
The owners of The National do not support independence. The moment they think that The National might be increasing support for independence, they will stop publishing it.
They have already been trying to milk more independence supporters by threatening to close down if sales don’t increase.
I don’t give a damn about what you wonder about me.
TD and The Isolator (no need to apologise as TD said, but I agree with TD. The unionists have had a concerted campaign to sully the term ‘Nationalist’… time to take it back.)
Nationalist is not automatically in contradiction with Internationalist.
I have met many unionist UKIP’per types, who are internationally isolationist (Anti-EU etc), but I didn’t meet a single Yesser through the entire Referendum process, through the many conversations and folk I met, that was of isolationist mind. Some may exist, but I never found any.
Back to the dictionary…
Internationalism
in·ter·na·tion·al·ism [in-ter-nash-uh-nl-iz-uh m]
—noun
The principle of cooperation among nations, for the promotion of their common good, sometimes as contrasted with nationalism, or devotion to the interests of a particular nation.
…The key above is the word ‘sometimes’. It goes to follow that this means not always. I propose from my experience that for Scottish independence advocates, that ‘sometimes’ is particularly rare.
@Rock (7.49) –
‘The owners of The National do not support independence. The moment they think that The National might be increasing support for independence, they will stop publishing it.’
That’s a big claim – what evidence do you have to back it up?
Love the Nash, worth it for the letters alone. Mebbes Rock you should try writing in a letter or two instead of rabbiting on here like a cracked gramophone record.
schrodinger’s cat @ 7.35pm
And I think you are wrong.
I will not vote without trust.
I will vote SNP/SNP because I think that is the best way for me to vote.
And best for Scotland 🙂
Yeh Rev, I like that idea of using your second vote to cancel your first. Simples, really. Like better together. Most powerful devolved administration on the planet.
“The second vote (regional list vote)does not cancel out the first unless it is used to do so”
Which is exactly what is proposed in the article linked to – electing other pro-indy MSPs with people’s second vote specifically to oppose the SNP ones they elected with their first vote.
You know with the amount of pro-indy parties, ie SNP, solidarity, ssp, greens, rise etc, independence votes are going to be dispersed between a wide selection and will that not let the unionist parties in more?
It’s not strange at all. Given that the vast majority of SNP votes are cast as a means to an end, the presence of other voices would be welcomed by many SNP voting, independence supporters.