David Aaronovitch, The Times, 8 August 2013:
“Next year is the centenary of the start of the Great War and some nationalists in Scotland think Mr Cameron is pulling a Salmond. Coming as it does in August between Bannockburn and the referendum vote, they believe the commemoration has been planned as an artificial booster to Britishness. ‘There’s no conceivable justification or precedent in British history’, complained a Reverend Stuart Campbell, ‘for celebrating the start of a war.’
The Reverend’s idea that the Great War would be ‘celebrated’ is utterly wrong. But he’s right in the sense that this commemoration too is politicised. […] On page one of Christopher Clark’s book about the origins of the Great War, ‘The Sleepwalkers’, Clark quotes the American historian Fritz Stern, who wrote that the Great War was ‘the first calamity of the 20th century, the calamity from which all other calamities sprang.’
This is true and ‘victory’ is really neither here nor there, while ‘futility’ is almost an aesthetic judgement. The great unintended creator of multiple calamities – that’s what we should be remembering 1914 for. That’s the lesson.”
We find ourselves in almost complete agreement with Mr Aaronovitch, which doesn’t happen very often. We’ll see if that message comes across during the David Beckham celebrity England vs Germany football match, shall we?
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Smart Alec. But very correct.
#It was a hundred years ago, today,
Kaiser Bill’s men first began to play
Pointy helmets in and out of style,
Sauerkraut will always raise a smile…
So may introduce to you,
The Empire you’ve known for all these years,
Kaiser Wilhem’s German Military Baaannnddd…
We’re Kaiser Wilhelm’s German Military Band,
We hope that you will enjoy the war…..
“The Reverend’s idea that the Great War would be ‘celebrated’ is utterly wrong.”
Not utterly, I’d say.
“A commemoration that, like the Diamond Jubilee celebrations this year, says something about who we are as a people.”
Dave, Oct 2012.
Now that you’re being quoted in the national press as a “Reverend”, how about some clarification on which church this is actually from?
I don’t care if you play left-footed or right. I just wonder if you were ordinated by someone with the surname “Hubbard” or even “Moon”.
“how about some clarification on which church this is actually from?”
link to wingsoverscotland.com
I didn’t realise religion was important in politics…oh..
If someone has the title Dr, shall we ask what type they are and where they got their qualification? Or if they are “Mrs” which religion married them?
The Reverend’s idea that the Great War would be ‘celebrated’ is utterly wrong.
It’s gracious of you to resist pointing out that you said nothing of the sort.
I’d love to read it, but I’ve had bad experiences subscribing to newspapers, which is sadly starting to become more and more common.
One can but hope the education system of the past 50 years has worked as it did on me and people see this celebration of the 20th century’s greatest crime against humanity for what it is…
Sick.
Now that you’re being quoted in the national press as a “Reverend”, how about some clarification on which church this is actually from?
May I ask why this is important to you?
Just seems a bit weird if it is. Ok, really weird in the current context, but maybe I’ve missed something.
So sorry to go OT, but this is really good.
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
Reverend???? this is the language of sheep… Mr is better …
Just read ‘where the heart is’ lovely, ta Rev.
CW: I don’t care if you you play left-footed or right
(Had to educated myself quickly on this one – although my initial guess was right it seems).
Why mention it then?
“The United Episcopalian Brotherhood Of Mind Your Own Damn Business”
No answer then. Hubbard or Moon?
Rather than asking *me* why it’s important, you’d be better asking the “Rev” why *he* thinks it’s so important to both use the title and be so mysterious about it.
For various reasons, it’s a title which carries respect in many quarters – see Aaronovitch’s quotes.
To use it and not explain simply invites scrutiny. Mr Campbell should no doubt expect media attention to his, er, “notable” history in the computer games world, and questions about his use and non-explanation of this title.
That’s not a threat or a promise, just a forecast.
“To use it and not explain simply invites scrutiny. Mr Campbell should no doubt expect media attention to his, er, “notable” history in the computer games world, and questions about his use and non-explanation of this title.”
It’s hard – like, really hard – to overstate the degree to which I couldn’t give a shit.
“Why mention it then?”
Because some people are sensitive about that particular issue.
Does anyone else remember David Aaronovitch being host of (or a ‘special-guest’ on) CBBC, approx 12/13 years ago?
I’m not great with names, but I remember faces quite well, and I was astonished to see him crop-up on ‘Newsnight Review’ or some similarly high-brow cultural product. I distinctly remember pointing at the screen, thinking, ‘I know that dude’. I remain convinced it was him.
This is a man who can speak off-the-cuff on any subject a la Menzies Campbell i.e. endlessly – unlike Campbell, he frequently loses the ‘subject’ of the 500-word sentence, but effortlessly carries on, stringing non-sequiturs together like there was no tomorrow, and nae chance whatever of any comeuppance.
He is, IMO, one of the slimiest characters ever to worm his way into the MSM – a profoundly suspect character, a hand-picked, customised tool, and not to be trusted in any circumstances, but especially when he’s feigning praise of any sort.
That’s not a threat or a promise.
Again, why mention ‘threats’ if you are not thinking about them?
Some odd thoughts appearing in your posts. Slightly worrying.
I remain unconvinced that Cameron is doing this for any other reason than the excuse to wave union flags.
Is there another reason that that the ceremony with the head of state will be held in Glasgow?
Surely the UK state doesn’t do things in Glasgow.
Reminds me of Hitchens’ view of those who claim the title “reverend” – no offence to Mr Campbell, your efforts on WoS are admirable… but Reverend is not a suitable title for anyone in the 21st century…
btw as an atheist I have no problem with the Rev’s form of theism
link to yesscotland.net
btw as an atheist I have no problem with the Rev’s form of theism
I’m a lapsed Jedi and likewise.
I think the saying is ‘Any publicity is good publicity’?
Note that’s a forecast.
‘This is true and ‘victory’ is really neither here nor there, while ‘futility’ is almost an aesthetic judgement.’
Oh dear.
But this is a typical Aaronovtichism – any student could happily spend an hour parsing that statement into its constituents, and end up with the raw ingredients: hubris, willful ignorance, intellectual laziness, contempt for ‘the reader’ etc.
Aaronovitch is a Category Five troll.
Please ignore anything David Aaronovitch says in relation to Scotland and/or our referendum – his words are irrelevant.
Two things, first that is a very good link “scaredy cat” check it out folks, and two, this so-called celebration of the start of World War 1 is utterly disgusting, you do not celebrate the start of a WAR for fucks sake. It is nothing more than flag waving because of the referendum, shameful.
I assumed for a long time that the name and title was a pseudonym, not sure why, but it wasn’t iimportant. The content and substanceof the blog was what I was iinterested in.
but Reverend is not a suitable title for anyone in the 21st century…
In every century, atheists have convinced themselves that the world has outgrown religion. Every century, they’re wrong. Every century, they’ve convinced themselves that they know the truth but in every century they’ve failed to convince everyone else. And every century, some of them are so insecure in their atheism that they need to attack religion and believers. It’s almost as if they’re not atheists as a result of being intelligent and rational, but that they’re atheists in the belief that that will make them intelligent and rational. It doesn’t.
“Is there another reason that that the ceremony with the head of state will be held in Glasgow.”
From Wikipeda – “The Cenotaph is a war memorial situated on Whitehall in London. It began as a temporary structure erected for a peace parade following the end of the First World War but following an outpouring of national sentiment it was replaced in 1920 by a permanent structure and designated the United Kingdom’s primary national war memorial.”
If this was really a UK national commemoration, then it would, and should, be at the Cenotaph in London… that is if they really believe in the UK. Anything else is just political hoo-ha.
I think a scrutiny of the academic qualifications of Ben Goldacre’s dead cat Hettie might be instructive. In an abstract sort of a way.
Rt Honorable Alistair Darling.
Why is that “caught with his fingers in the till” Westminster expense abuser calling himself honorable?
Currywurst’s wee rant there reminds me an awful lot of a not-particularly-missed former visitor of this site…
@Currywurst
‘Now that you’re being quoted in the national press as a “Reverend”, how about some clarification on which church this is actually from?’
Leaving aside the whole being entirely irrelevant thing. You do realise that people can use any prefix they like. If I decided on a whim to call myself Lady Betsy I could.
With regard to our host it might be easier if you just made your point instead of asking what church he belongs to. We all know it’s only going to be some boring point like ‘Oh Church X believes chickens are devils and you belong to it so that means you want to kill all chickens’ or ‘so you’re not a real reverend, you are a liar’. Either way it’s a frightful bore.
I don’t care if you play left-footed or right.
Currywurst
I have heard that before just before the insults fly.
As a strong agnostic I can’t say it matters to me one jot which church Stu adheres to but I can’t see why it should even matter. There are independence supporters of all stripes including Jedi and FSM…Yaar!
I never for a second considered Stu to be a bonafide Reverend.I assumed it was an online handle
Is there another reason that that the ceremony with the head of state will be held in Glasgow?
Because it’s a Commonwealth ceremony and many Commonwealth heads of state will already be in Glasgow for the Commonwealth Games, which end the day before the ceremony.
O/T – I just watched NNS’s “wee dug” cartoon, and it’s very nice indeed.
Jiggs – sorry mate – in every century for the past 200 THOUSAND years of modern man – atheists have been 100% correct. There is no God, never has been, never will be…. there’s no Santa either or boogyman…. sorry…
I never for a second considered Stu to be a bonafide Reverend.I assumed it was an online handle
Currywurst, on the other hand, is genuinely a steamed tube of processed pig products, slathered in cheap sauce.
I have always fancied being a Rastafarian . Worshiping the most high , Ja Rastafari. Unfortunately I don’t have the hair for it, so I will settle With being an atheist .
as Eminem said we have the discovery channel dont we . we can make our own mind up about anything with a google search. A bit like how I made my mind up about Scots Independence.
James Joyce wrote, well, pretty-much everything he did, when he was ‘outside’ Ireland.
And that’s why very few people associate his name with that country.
are you a pastafarian reverend of the church of the flying spaghetti monster stu??
Jiggs – sorry mate – in every century for the past 200 THOUSAND years of modern man – atheists have been 100% correct.
QED. I never said you weren’t correct – although neither of us know whether you are – but you clearly can’t cope if the debate doesn’t go according to your script, which I’m guessing won’t rise above the level of argument by analogy. Which is why, 200,000 years later, atheists are still failing to convince everyone. You believe what you want to believe, but please don’t pretend you know the truth. You’ll start to sound like you’re religious.
The only front worth fighting:
link to morningstaronline.co.uk
LOL We don’t need to convince anyone – the burden of proof is on those making extraordinary claims… and claims of special “reverence” due to deep knowledge of an invisible sky fairy that loves us yet commands us all to suffer and die requires… well at least SOME evidence eh?
P.S. I do know the truth that logic and evidence dictates – there is no god… Well unless there is an evil god sadistic god … now that would explain a sh1tload…
Omigod, curry (at last!) has a point. There are only two types of clergyman: the decent, and the overwhelming majority. Aaronovtich is a clergyman. You know which sort.
@pmreck,
Thanks for linking to that article. Mary Barbour was an amazing woman and I’m pleased to see she might at long last be properly remembered. FFS Dewar got a statue.
@pmcrek-
Kin right.
It’s happening again, right now.
SSP will be there in Ayr, again on Saturday, Wallace Tower, and other places I don’t know.
We’re out there pmcrek – we have been since the turn of the year, trying to warn our own folk about this, when it was bollock-dropping cold, week after week after week. Now? When it’s that bit nicer, we get all-sorts claiming to represent those affected by the Bedroom Tax?
You know who I’m talking about here – ‘Dmitry Noshame’ has no more cred than Aaronovitch: fellow-travellers, now trapped in the Metropolitan bubble which allows them to ‘be’ themselves.
Opportunistic, ball-less, heartbroken, self-seeking, flashlight-craving scum.
Betsy, aye amazing women. We should be celebrating her life and her struggles instead.
Brilliant poll you have run Rev and cant wait for the other results to come through, I really do hope it gets the coverage it deserves. Also on the subject of this WW1 fiasco, this insult to all the families of those who sacrificed their lives. It was 100 years ago but you can still sense the utter waste of life that this war was all about, A mass slaughter of millions, organised by the ruling class of England. Does anyone know the agenda for the day?. I am hoping that it is on the BBC for a couple of hours then its over.. if its along those lines then we can bite the bullet, shut our eyes and then get on with our lives, But if its an event that is going to last for days then some kind of protest needs to be arranged, to let the uk government know that this farce is not in our names.
ianbrotherhood
That was an extremely inspiring and poetic rant mate, top class.
Kracker man – i honestly could not give a fuck whether you believe in anything. Perhaps you need to put on your tin foil hat and stop the fuckwittage and stick on topic.
Well played Jiggsbro!
Here we go again with the atheists who know everything.
Atheists actually are generally people who don’t know what they don’t know.
Agnostics I can relate to
Sneddon – Did I say I believed in anything? You need to read posts properly – right now you’ve made yourself look a bit of a tit…
Thanks though sharing your “couldn’t git a fuckery” you’ll be pleased to know that of course no one gives a fuck about your view …
@pmcrek-
You’re very welcome.
After talking to folk today in Ayr, I came away elated, but croaking, ended up greeting in the car on the way home – one lass stopped, (she had three weans, all under five), and she signed the SSP petition, and she signed the letter (the no2bedroomtax lobby-letter that they’d printed hundreds of copies of) and the weans were hollering and she had a nearly-gone yellowish bruise over her left eye, and she told me about her street (some scheme in Ayr I’m not familiar with, maybe ‘Belmont?) where near-enough every window has a UKOK sticker up, cause there’s a Councillor, a woman, lives up that street, and she got everyone to put one up, and she knows about the referendum next year, but she hasn’t had time to look into it, and ‘he’ never votes, she had to take him the last time, but she’s gonny find out about it, and she knows it’s about the weans, it’s not for her, and she will do when she gets the time, but she’ll no make the meeting next week…she’d love to, but, you know…
That lass can’t be more than twenty-two, twenty-three, and she looks completely done-in, and yet, and yet, there was brightness in her eyes when she spoke – she’s got her opinion, and she knows, in theory, that she has a voice, a place.
If we can get to that lass, we’ll win this thing.
@dave
If we come across a lot of deranged nutters talking shite, can’t we comment upon that? I thought that’s what we did here. FFS, we can’t all be atheists.
Krackerman,
You sound like you hate people who have faith and it’s obvious that you think your own atheism is far more important than anything on this site.
currywurst must be laughing his breeks aff. He posts ….You bite…and this very good thread is getting hijacked.
Theirs many people in Scotland who have faith that their is something more to life than what we experience on earth, so for anyone to post about ‘sky fairies’ and insult these people, leaves me wondering.
We want to attract people on to wings….insulting them isn’t the way to do this.
If Krackerman is a unionist, then I think we need to be aware that this might be deliberate.
Patrick: Krackerman’s comments here are usually pretty hostile.
I don’t think anyone can equate atheism with being unionist.
@BtP
Yes Scotland blog is making good use of findings.
link to yesscotland.net
The idea of this David Beckham football match is about as crass as it gets.
Mr Campbell show me your peppers if you have no peppers their will be trouble . your site has thousands of readers you could say it was revered and you write the majority and are respected by most readers here so their you go you don’t need peppers
Reverand. The term is an anglicisation of the Latin reverendus, the style originally used in Latin documents in medieval Europe. It is the gerundive of the verb revereri (to respect; to revere)
I am a self-appointed celebrant of the religion of the Celestial Teapot.
I can, and often do, celebrate anything, if I the bar is open and I have some lucre in my pocket, and it is rarely with tea.
Re the Rev’s “history in video game journalism” as I recall the mainly controversial thing he did as give accurate reviews to games unlike most magazines that would give a stinker 55%
Here I go OT again (sorry), but this is really fun. Besides a certain person’s hostility was getting me a bit down. If anyone else is a bit fed up with it, this might cheer you up.
nationalcollective.com/2013/08/09/being-a-yes-campaigner/
Can’t believe we have the minions on our side. No we are sure to win.
nationalcollective.com/2013/08/09/being-a-yes-campaigner/
Sorry, perhaps this link will work.
Any truth in the rumours that Panelbase have been got at by Better Together types in delaying the results of the WoS poll?
If true does that mean the results have been leaked to Better Together?
I give up!
Yo Rev.
Top article on NNS this morning.
link to newsnetscotland.com
Big Smiley
Why Glasgow,why 2 days after the Commonwealth games?Well we all know the answer.Trying to make gain from what was a political decision to send Millions of young men to their deaths.That’s the Brits for you.It will be the same fake Britishness that brings Tesco to cover their shops in Union Jack baby clothes following the birth of another tax dodger.Cameron should apologise we should mourn the deaths privately and then pray for independence.It’s actually quite scandalous…and it won’t work.
So why on earth is Cameron celebrating the START of WW1, just before the referendum…. the answer is obvious and it’s vile and sick….let the warmongering unionists celebrate this ugly date, while the decent amongst us remember the fallen with dignity and peace.
Regarding this ‘CELEBRATION’ of the commencement of the great war. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more coldly calculated piece of politicking in some time. There is no excuse other than a flag waving exercise prior to the referendum. Westminster has no Olympics or Jubilee next year. Scotland has the Ryder Cup, Commonwealth Games and Homecoming. Pure and simple the bastards are going to celebrate the deaths of a generation in an excuse to wave a flag at what they consider an opportune moment.
They are terrified of a feel good factor running through Scotland in 2014. How very fucking dare we feel confident, assured or good about ourselves as Scots instead of Ukanians. These are our events, held in our country. Of course we should take some pride in ourselves as hosts. Our bloody job is to show off at these international events next year, to show folks from around the globe just who we are and what we can do.
I’ll save my memories and commemorations of our war dead for the same day its held every year.
The guiding light from the Rev has always been “Play the Ball… not the Man”
or if you wish “Nil argumentum ad hominem”.
This question of title regarding our host is definitely a “spoiler” in my view.
Got them really rattled now.
Hail Alba
I cannot think of anything sicker than celebrating the start of an event that took the lives of over 16 million people and resulted in 20 million wounded in one of the deadliest conflicts in human history.
@Ianbrotherhood
Just read your comment on your day at Ayr. How can anyone not be choked with rage and sadness at the same time? This is not as good as it gets and I’ll be damned if we’re going to let people like that lass and her kids down. They’ve been betrayed enough by people they trusted.
@Macart and Ianbrotherhood.
Indeed this referendum is for the children… their future… their country.
And the weak and betrayed.
Everything else pales to insignificance!
Let’s be “tribal”.
Hail Alba
@Robert Kerr
Lived on a council scheme myself once upon a time and seen that same face surrounded by the weans many a time. The boy might leave the scheme, but the scheme never leaves…
Lets face it the Brits have form on these types of things. Nothing surprises me!
It’s obvious that the No Scotland lot are scared to death of Stu/WOS and the influence his articles are having on the debate. The ‘No’ camp will try and play the man because they can’t win fairly in open, honest debate. Stu’s superb journalism, his use of links to a sources etc., his ‘common’ touch are hitting the spot and don’t they know it! More power to you Rev!
Re David Aaronovitch, I’ve always found him sneering and dismissive although I agree with him re politicising the war ‘celebration’.
Anyone in any doubt about what the first ever commemoration / celebration of the start of a war is about need only read the words of the woman in charge of it.
there is probably not a supreme being, and that is scientifically and factually about all that can be said on the matter, beyond that the faith that something does, exists in the merest slightest possibility left. You can say absolutely nothing about the universe for a fact without the proviso of probably, simple quantum dynamics forces you to. I could jump off a tall building and I would probably plummet to the ground under the force of gravity which attracts me and the Earth together, but it is not outwith the realms of the possible that a passing dense and hence equalling gravitational mass was in just the right place to cause me to hang in the air. Think about the possibilities before you go spouting absolutes. And thank you for the memory of your Ayr campaigning, I teared up, I grew up in a tenement that was condemned for almost all of the ten years we lived there, we really should have all moved on from that by now. And finally, I believe Santa exists, ok! He might not bring me presents, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t somewhere, nobody ever went to war with Santa on their side, or killed someone because their idea of Santa was wrong, and that’s why in that little bit of possibility I’ve chosen to put Santa there.
Indeed our formative years still haunt us.
I was brought up in a “single end” in a tenement owned by my father’s employer. We had gas lamps at first. We had hole in the wall beds, two in number. We had a shared outside toilet.
I was lucky. I was intelligent and the then education system permitted me to get access to higher education and an honours degree without charge. I eventually became an owner occupier professional engineer.
Hail Alba
@Doug Daniel
Currywurst’s wee rant there reminds me an awful lot of a not-particularly-missed former visitor of this site…
That’s exactly what I was thinking…..
Re. Aaronovitch. I have long suspected that he is an ‘agent of influence’, responding to the needs of his puppet masters in Whitehall. An odiously slimy one at that. It might not be evidence, but he does appear on the BBC quite a lot, telling the people how to think. Personally, his just makes me think of Gríma Wormtongue.
Re. Currywurst’s “I don’t care if you play left-footed or right”. Is that not the same as “I’m not racist…”? And so early in the thread.
You’ve got them rattled Rev., keep it up.
The start of a war should never every be celebrated.
I’ve always been fascinated by WW1 “mans inhumanity to man” since I was at school and just recently whilst doing family research I discovered that my great grandad died at the Battle of Loos on the 25th September 1915.
The sad thing about this:
He got married in December 1913. Moved down to Liverpool to start a new life. My grandad was born 1914.
Great grandad enlisted with the Gordon Highlanders 27th July 1915 and was killed in action less than 8 weeks and never to be found again.
My grand aunt was born fatherless in April 1916, with great grandad being unaware that he was going to be a dad again.
What a waste of a life and a tragedy for families that was repeated in countless households for 4 long bitter years……….. and all for what? To do it all again in 1939 and almost every year since.
Celebrate. NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whilst I agree with the sentiments in the original post. I wonder when a scots political party likes to cite 1320 document as a claim of right over Northern Britain…when within its text it admits to arriving in these lands:
” The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed”
Then has the gall to complain when Britons re asserted their sovereignty!!!
………. and here was me thinking that the Picts were absorbed by the Dalriada Scots over a period of time before the race completely disappeared after Kenneth McAlpin became King of both the Scots and the Picts in 844.
We should take the opportunity to remind folks that the British and German royal families were closely related and that millions died in a family squabble…
We should remind people that during the first world war the Westminster government cut a deal with the French to divide the ottoman empire and therefore disempower the ottoman navy, that presented a threat to Brittish/French Business interests that needed control of Suez.
(yes Wars fought for big Businesses benefits isn’t a new thing)
The Sykes/pourot (sp) agreement created The Jordan/Iraq/Iran/Lebanon, and has caused the death of millions of Moslems, leading to a lot of the problems we see today.
I’m surprised Anas Sarwar, hasn’t complained about it.
If you look at the comments that were made by a lot of Socialists in Glasgow/Scotland at the start of the war, their was a clear understanding that the war was about big business.