Prisoners of time
So we’ve got a couple of weeks to wait to find out what the SNP’s grand plan that they should have had ready yesterday was, and in the absence of anything better to do we suppose we might as well speculate on the possibilities.
WARNING: if you’re one of the decreasing rump of ultra-faithful still clinging to the idea of a new indyref in 2020, don’t build your hopes up.
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OPTION 1: GO STRAIGHT TO COURT
This is a bit of a non-starter because we have no legal grounds to bring a complaint about anything. The UK government has no obligation to grant a Section 30 order, so the case would fall at the first hurdle.
Result: NO INDYREF IN 2020.
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OPTION 2: CALL SOME SORT OF CONVENTION
This is the idea recently proposed by Kenny Macaskill. Doubtless there’d be some jolly spirited intellectual debate and everyone would feel very important and have a super time, but whatever it produced wouldn’t be in any way binding on the UK government, and in any event it would definitely take many months to be set up and run its course.
Result: NO INDYREF IN 2020.
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OPTION 3: ANNOUNCE YET ANOTHER “SUMMER OFFENSIVE”
Remember the last time the SNP tried to keep its activists busy over the sunny months? It amounted to going out knocking doors like they do all the time anyway, and had no discernible effect on anything. Any scheme of this nature would be a simple admission of defeat and push any hope of a referendum beyond the 2021 election.
But hey, maybe there’ll be another petition. That’ll sort it.
Result: NO INDYREF IN 2020.
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OPTION 4 – BRING FORWARD A REFERENDUM BILL
We already know there isn’t really time for this. An article in yesterday’s National speculated that even if the referendum was scheduled for 17 December 2020 – an idea even a blind-drunk Baldrick would dismiss as far too idiotic to contemplate – it’d still need to have been signed off by April.
But the last non-insane possibility for a date in 2020 is mid-October, which shifts the deadline up to February. And that was based on the assumption of the UK government agreeing and co-operating at every step.
Since they’re clearly not going to do that, the opposition parties would hold the bill up at every possible juncture, and there isn’t the slightest chance of it being passed in time. Even if there were, the UK government could simply pass legislation changing the Scotland Act and stomping on it, as they did with the EU Continuity Bill last year.
Result: NO INDYREF IN 2020.
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OPTION 5: JUST KEEP BEGGING
The only actual plan the SNP seem to have is to continue appealing to Boris Johnson’s better nature and sense of moral probity (stop sniggering at the back), and demanding something he quite obviously isn’t going to give them.
Result: NO INDYREF IN 2020.
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OPTION 6: DECLARE INDEPENDENCE IMMEDIATELY
This is the favoured strategy of Craig Murray, for which he makes a broadly compelling realpolitik case, noting in particular that the EU would suddenly be disinclined to protect the interests of the UK, which will shortly be a non-member state.
The main problem with it is that it’s very hard to justify a unilateral declaration of independence to the international community without a shred of measurable evidence that it’s the will of a majority of the Scottish people.
He suggests that a possible solution would be to make the declaration first and then hold a confirmatory vote, but that would seem highly likely to backfire, and the mechanics of it appear fanciful – how would Unionist councils, who would be enraged at the declaration, be made to co-operate with the retrospective referendum, for example? Would the UK government intervene with military force?
(And lordy, HOW embarrassing would it be if we somehow managed to hold it, lost and had to un-declare independence and meekly shuffle back to the UK?)
As far as we can see a UDI strategy could only work with either a referendum result or sustained polling above 50% as justification, and an acceptably lengthy period of majority polling would require more than a few months. Even a bare-minimum six months definitely takes us well beyond the deadline for holding a vote this year.
Result: NO INDYREF IN 2020.
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OPTION 7: CALL AN EARLY HOLYROOD ELECTION
There doesn’t initially seem to be much point in this, since there’s one due in little over a year anyway. But if keeping the 2020 promise was deemed important enough, the Scottish Government could stand down, block the formation of an alternative government (they have enough votes, assuming Green support), and trigger a new election at which they could campaign on the sole policy of declaring independence.
(There’d be very little point in campaigning for another referendum, because that’d just get us back to where we are now – Holyrood has already voted for one and been rebuffed. So it’d have to be UDI.)
This would be a highly risky strategy, as polling suggests the Yes vote is still below 50%. And the timing would be tricky with the Alex Salmond trial looming on the horizon in March. However, you only need a couple of months for an election and if we were doing away with the need for a referendum it does seem to at least theoretically offer a possible route to victory before the year’s end.
Again, however, the Scottish Parliament exists at the whim of the UK one, and it could simply be suspended, on the excuse of having exceeded its powers, as the Northern Irish Assembly has been for the past three years.
Result: NO INDYREF IN 2020.
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So it’s a pretty gloomy picture, in large part because so much time has been wasted since the Brexit vote on trying to deny England and Wales what they voted for, rather than establishing some legal facts or using the arithmetical leverage that we had in the House Of Commons until last December but which has now been lost.
2020, certainly, is an absolutely dead duck, as all intelligent people have known for a long time. But it’s not hopeless.
In this site’s view the best strategy is still to first pursue the legal route by notionally legislating for a referendum (with no intention of actually carrying it out) and contesting the UK government’s inevitable challenge in the Supreme Court.
If that challenge was won, all well and good. The Scottish Parliament would have the right to hold referendums whenever it chose.
If the case was either lost, or wrecked by the UK government moving the goalposts (as detailed above) to outlaw it, that would strengthen Scotland’s case in the eyes of the international community, because it would clearly be being denied any democratic route to self-determination, a protected right under the UN Charter.
The scheduled 2021 Holyrood election could then be held – which the UK government would this time have no grounds to cancel or obstruct, because it would be due as the normal course of events – on the basis of being a de facto referendum. Were more than 50% of the vote to be achieved, Craig Murray’s plan would become viable.
This strategy is not foolproof. There’s no guarantee any court case could be concluded before the election is due next May, for example. The opposition parties could refuse to conduct the election as a plebiscite, at least partly undermining its credibility. And the UK government could cancel the Holyrood election even without having any legitimate basis for doing so.
But again, such draconian and unjustifiable action would strengthen the case for UDI and the prospects of independence being recognised by the international community.
It’s not an easy road. But a legal challenge followed by either a legal referendum or a plebiscitary election is the only one we can see that doesn’t lead down a dead end. Whether the SNP has either the wit or the stomach to take it is something we’re only going to have to wait a little while longer to find out.
“It’s not an easy road. But a legal challenge followed by either a legal referendum or a plebiscitary election is the only one we can see that doesn’t lead down a dead end. Whether the SNP has either the wit or the stomach to take it is something we’re only going to have to wait a little while longer to find out.”
Yep it makes the most sense to me. In effect the SNP are still carrying out their mandate (via the courts) but are being prevented from doing so by WM.
I thought about an early holyrood election too – as an emergency measure – and it might still be viable if things start to get messy after January 31st, but a year isn’t a long time and a year from now we need to have our ‘AUOB/Yes alliance party’ well and truly in place.
Interesting thoughts. I do think the SNP gambled that fighting brexit increasing support for indy (or, cynically, the SNP) and it has backfired a bit. Pretty grim place just now and frankly the bar is now so low most will be happy with ANY plan that isn’t “ask BoJo again.”
Part of me says we should just hold one anyway but the logical part of me resists as it’s unlikely to go well with the EU who are currently conducting amazing feats of contortions to avoid recognising what is happening in Catalonia. The same part of me is against UDI.
If the 2021 election has to be a defacto referendum so be it but let’s not pretend that the yoons will count every non SNP vote/MSP seat (whichever conveniently fits their narrative more) as a “strong message” against independence. The De Hont system will likely aid their case.
Dark times.
Of course, if the SNP had been preparing for a referendum or actively trying to get the prospective vote share up and had the SNP used the GE an alternative route to a referendum or declaration of independence through the election manifesto. Or stopped trying to persuade the people of England that they had voted for the wrong thing, thereby trying to save the union. Or had the SNP not allowed Johnston out of the cage he was in by facilitating the GE, we would have been in a different position. The SNP have had 5 years to prepare for all of this and more and wasted every single one of them. So what changed 5 years ago that caused all of this to happen ( or not to happen)? Oh yes, I remember now, Nicola Sturgeon was elected Queen of the SNP
I think you are right, Stu. In addition, the SNP would need to propose and elect a new party leader who will be more robust regarding independence. I am not sure that the SNP rank and file would be brave enough to do that.
No I don’t think the SNP will oust Sturgeon. It’s a hard sell when they’re politically successful (by some measures) and I’m not sure who is the obvious replacement.
The party as a whole should be setting policy though, NS should merely be enacting it. The party needs to push her to indy priority.
Seems to me that most inconvenient truth to the whole process – whatever plan or route is chosen – is that support for Indy Ref 2 nevermind independence is not high enough.
We need to see 55% clamouring for Indy and another 10% keen on it under certain circumstances in the polls. And we have nothing like that.
Will the SG still excist to allow any of these plans to work?It has already been muted at westminister that the SG could be disolved.
As you say Stu, there are no guarantees, so why not do as Craig Murray says.
The reason for this can be the 62% of Scotland who voted to remain. I’m not sure how much sympathy or not we would receive from the international community but I’m sure Scotland has enough friends and Britain and Boris enough enemies.
As you have pointed out yourself, both referendums are not compatible with each other so a Declaration of Independence under the proviso a confirmational plebiscite is held could actually work.
Of course there are people who are not going like It on both sides but there are no sure things and we can only guess at odds of it working.
“We made a commitement to the people of Scotland and we intend to absolutely deliver on that” Michael Russell 10 minutes ago
Despite the usual badgering as to how and what ifs Michael Russell told Gary Marshall of the BBC he wasn’t going to give the UK the opportunity to debate this
15 miutes earlier Gary Marshall tore Douglas Ross apart with his silly Once in a generation quote
Michael Russell pointed out that Northern Ireland has the opportunity to vote every 4 years on its future or 8 years on reunification and that a political generation is 4 years if you were to adhere to political events never changing
There was more in the interview which I won’t quote beecause I can’t remember every word but the essence of Mr Russells words there will be a referendum when they said there would be one and that would set out and announced very soon
Nicola Sturgeon has said in the past that she thought all this would end up in a Court…. I guess time will tell,and for an early Holyrood election too. We don’t yet know if the backlash to all this would create the tipping point?
Kevin Pringle ex SNP adviser made an interesting observation this morning when he said, from the point of view of the Tories in Scotland it makes more sense to have a referendum on Independence because it gives them the opportunity to oppose it, because without the prospect of that referendum where does their vote share come from as there’ll not be much incentive for their supporters to vote for them because they know they’re never going to be in government in Scotland so what’s the point of voting for them, and they have’nt had any policies in the last five years except for stop Indyref
He went on to say that even if the UK position continues until the 2021 elections then the Tories have nothing to offer their voters at all and the SNP are likely to sweep them out of Scotland altogether in voter retribution for being dictators
The Tory representative predicted there would be a Tory revival and the terrible record of the SNP would fail under proper scrutiny, in other words we’ll tell the same lies we’ve been telling for years but everybody will believe us this time
I really doubt that
From 9am call Kaye is hosting a Yoonfest for her phone in programme “How do yooo feel about Boris Johnson’s decision, is it the right one?” she begs
Holyrood as the lawmaking body in Scotland can pass legislation making it illegal for council officers or concillors to frustrate, impede or fail to implement an election or referendm or concultation duly passed by Holyrood, or else.
This would look rather illiberal and would telegraph the intention but it would prevent the scenario you outline though it might be necessary to jail people and remove councillors from office pour encourage les autres.
But this is the sort of thing the SNP should have done in advance after May’s Now is not the time. Much like the removal of the charge of sedition from Scots llaw in advance of 2012 and the unification of regional polis into Polis Scotland. The latter prevented individual area commanders going rogue.
As for WM sending in the troops they can’t rely on the Scottish troops, we could simply deploy winsome young things armed with flowers and disarm them. Ditto Welsh or Irish regiments. So, English troops ‘invading’ Scotland. How will the Scottish troops in say Edinburgh Castle barracks react to that? Even if they stay in barracks it potentially pits armed Polis under the control of Holyrood facing off against English squaddies. We could arrest them 😉 But more serously they would need air support to pick off the polis snipers. Also armoured vehicles.
All in the full glare of the world’s media who would love it to bits.
And finally if Belfast was a big morass for the British army Glasgow will make it look like a walk in the park. Ditto here in Dundee. Dundee is long and thin, hard to control. Take a lot of troops, especially if the polis are on our side. That could get very messy very quickly.
IOW it ain’t happening. It would be a propaganda win for Scotgov winning it international sympathy at a stroke. Spain had the luxury of a paramilitary federal police force, we have no such thing so troops are the only option. English police need Scottish clearance to operate under Scottish law.
So WM have no actual practical options other than legal and diplomatic to prevent or stop a UDI and they know it. A UDI basically just requires Holyrood to formally withdraw from the Treaty of Union due to manifest and listed breakings of it by WM. Trump wiithdrew the US from the Iran nuclear treaty. These things happen all the time.
At the moment Holyrood pulls the trigger WM can only inlfame the situation and hand them propaganda victories and international sympathy unless they are reasonable about it. There is the danger for WM of realpolitiks in the EC resulting in EU recognition and strongarming of EU govts to follow suit. Our Scandi friends might well go for it as well as might our friends in Eire. A UDI could wrap us in recognition and isolate rUK, which needs EU good offices to get a trade and exit deal.
We should not discount this. We must always make WM worry that we might go there.
I’m prepared to get on a bus and go to Edinburgh to participate in a human shield around Holyrood to prevent it being shut down. Make those English troops come through us and Polis Scotland maybe the Fire Brigade as in Catalunya oh and our winsome young things armed with flowers brigade. Young squaddies being smiled at and flowers being put in their gun barrels under the glare of the world media. WM can only lose that confrontation.
Interesting & worrying times.
Before Scotland can know where it needs to go, it has to know where it already is.
We cannot afford to dither about this exasperating ambiguity over sovereignty.
I have harped on about this for years, BECAUSE IT MATTERS. All roads lead to sovereignty.
It matters, because if Scotland is sovereign, then Westminster is not. If Scotland is sovereign, then neither Boris Johnson nor the Westminster Parliament have the power to overrule the sovereign will of Scotland. incidentally, neither does Nicola Sturgeon.
If we are sovereign, it has a definitive affect on this concept of UDI. There is a vital distinction which many misunderstand between a sovereign entity like Scotland bringing a political union to an end and thus being “independent” of it, and a secessionist UDI which creates a new Sovereignty which hasn`t existed before and must be created from the living flesh of the “mothership” sovereign entity it has chosen to leave.
The latter UDI is massively problematic because it is typically disputed and mired in controversy, with all manner of boundaries and separations which need to be defined, settled and agreed.
The former UDI, which I hesitate even to call a UDI at all, should not pose any kind of a problem for a Sovereign Nation like Scotland, which has it`s own Constitutional Birth Certificate and centuries of undisputed provenance, identity and distinct culture. We are not creating anything new, merely unilaterally terminating a bilateral treaty.
Scotland IS Soveregn. Westminster recognises the Claim of Right and sovereignty of the Scottish people BECAUSE IT HAS TO. It cannot remove the sovereignty from the Scottish people by the very definition “they” are sovereign.
If Westminster can be obliged to concede recognition of the Claim of Right and Sovereignty of the Scottish people, then Scotland must now secure similar reognition from the UN and EU, and compell them to acknowledge the sovereignty of the Scottish people has been improperly usurped by Westminster`s colonial subjugation.
This distinction is vital, and should be our first priority, first because it leaves UK sovereignty compromised and disputed, which in turn leaves Brexit paralysed in stasis, but it doesn`t necessarily terminate the United Kingdom`s existence. It does however leave it hanging by the merest thread, with Westminster obliged to cut that thread if determined to proceed with “England`s” Brexit.
If Westminster recognises the Claim of Right, then so must the EU and UN.
For as long as we prevaricate and dither, we fuel the perception that maybe Scotland somehow isn`t really sovereign, and this confusion and uncertainty is exploited to the fullest extent possible by Westminster and the Tories.
Within the next fortnight, we MUST see decisive action to secure international recognation for the Claim of Right and Sovereignty of the Scottish people.
Fk the Scotland Act, FK any Section 30. Assert Scotland`s Constitutional Sovereignty, and Westminster has NO power over us. None.
So disappointed with the SNP.
After a lifetime of voting for independence to watch our advantage (such as they were) be pissed up against a wall.
But this is only a battle in a very long war, so they better pull something out of the hat or I for one will be cancelling my membership and looking for a new vehicle to move forward with.
The “Wings of hope party?”
“But a legal challenge followed by either a legal referendum or a plebiscitary election is *the only one we can see*…”
I’m hoping the emphasised part above is the most important thing you’ve said so-far this year. Hopefully there will be some route that only those in the SNP and the EU are aware of and nobody else has picked up on it yet.
There has to be because as you have pointed out all the other routes would appear to be fucked, for want of a better word. 31st Can’t come quick enough to see what the response is. It had better be bloody excellent.
Can any one else think of a time and country where government ministers are allowed to spout basically lies and have these broadcast unchallenged, in fact they are taken and repeated as fact by the media. This is not journalism but just state propaganda.
These people are not journalists they are, as I have seen stated before, courtiers. Willing to tell any lie to ingratiate themselves with the powerful. After all there may be a reward of a honour from the state in the future.
RE…. The council’s acting for Westminster and not the Scottish electorate to refuse to hold a vote!
I suspect a Council Tax Strike will soon change their minds.
If they work for Westminster they can get their money from them…. If they want money from us then they need to actually work for us….
Dr Jim wrote on 15 January, 2020 at 8:29 am:
“15 minutes earlier Gary Marshall tore Douglas Ross apart with his silly once in a generation quote.”
Damn! Missed that! Can you give us the general gist of what was said?
Lollysmum @ 9.30am – “interesting & worrying times.” – said EXACTLY what I was going to!
What’s wrong with tanks on the ground and martial law in Scotland?
Think of the worldwide attention and condemnation Westminster would attract by doing that. Scotland would get a huge support of sympathy and Westminster couldn’t escape looking like the bad guys. They could never lay claim that the UK was a democracy again ever.
Plus, it’s extremely doubtful that troops would shoot to kill. There may be a few arrests but that’s about it.
So, UDI would be my go to tactic.
However………
It seems obvious to me that the SNP read this board, Craig Murrays board and the rest and no matter what great ideas are presented, the SNP will deliberately go out and do the exact opposite.
So basically, all we have left with independence are assorted talking shops.
And there’s a very good civil disobedience move suggested by Liz g at 9:30 am. A mass cancellation of council tax direct debits. But it would have to be perfectly organised *and* most importantly adhered to by everyone. If they tried taking legal action it would utterly clog the already strained legal system. Nice one Liz g! 🙂
Could they not appeal to the UN under Art 1. ‘Right to Self-Determination’?
I note in Johnson’s reply to the First Minister that he used the word “agree” to a referendum, rather than “grant”. I believe that “agree” is, in this context, the correct term. We should not give them power they do not hold by using “grant”. Like the block “grant” it is, in my view,inaccurate.
Stand to be corrected. Again, in my view, waiting until the 2021 Holyrood election for another mandate will be a disaster. Once out of the EU we are done for and Scotland will remain a colony for ever.
Breeks,
I don’t see UDI as secessionist at all, I see it as flexing our Scottish muscles (exerting our sovereignty) so I am in agreement with you.
We’ve asked Westminster politely to cooperate but they refuse so now it’s time to have them tellt.
I may be wrong Breeks but the only difference I see between you and Craig Murray is that you want to use the courts to get recognition of Scotland’s sovereignty while Craig already takes it as a given and is ready to go straight to the international community.
As I say, maybe I’m wrong.
We would not be in this situation if the SNP leadership understood and respected the law. The constitutional legality of Article 50 should have been challenged the minute it was approved by Westminster. It is now too late to resort to constitutional law to defend Scotland from English fascism. I’m raging.
Guy next to me said “There will be blood on the streets!” at yesterdasy rebuttal and I replied “Naw, Scotland will just shrug”
We fucked it…we shat the bed and paying for it will be our comeuppance for eternity by the looks of it.
No idea what we do now…a Tory Majority in Westminster need do nothing. Folk claiming “The Scots People are sovereign” means as much to Boris as the empty “Once in a generation” promise means to us.
Bill McLean
You might be on to something, as control of language and narrative is the colonialist’s most powerful tool.
Your idea of legislating for a second referendum is probably the best way of taking things forward.
But the polls won’t move until Scotland feels the actual pain of Brexit. That would be the best time to conduct some sort of referendum or election.
The interesting times we are living in just got more interesting.
I honestly don’t know what might be the best route forward for us, but, what I do know is, for as long as we have SNP MPs inside the House of Commons, they MUST wage a strong guerrilla war against the Government.
Every time a Tory, or Ian Murray, stands up and spouts lies about how Scotland is being governed – call-out their lies. This will stymie the work of the House. Whenever BoJo says the Scottish Health Service is in a mess – Ian Blackford must call him a liar and in his defence, point-out how much better the SNHDS is doing than the English NHS.
Every time they use the “once in a generation” line, come back with Thatcher’s “majority of Scottish MPs is a cause for independence” quote. Remind them the SNP| has a bigger electoral mandate than the Tory Government.
But, particularly in any Brexit business – reconvene the Scottish Grand Committee, and debate Brexit’s effect on Scotland. Pass a SGC motion condemning Brexit as being against the wishes of Scotland. This will hold-up progress, tie-up the HoC in additional votes and generally piss them off.
BoJo just might think: “They don’t have a majority for Independence, let’s give them their referendum, beat them again and shut them up.”
Or, they could decide, it’s too-much bother hanging onto the Jocks, let’s let them go.
We have to try everything and anything. And don’t give them a second’s peace.
Colonialist get in you head and make a monkey out of you by instilling their world-view within the dominated Other. So you do things like not using the law to defend Scotland’s public from totalitarian authoritarianism.
An utterly depressing article, all the more so cos it’s spot on. 🙁
So where do we go from here? Just wait for the next Holyrood elections (assuming Johnson just doesn’t close it down), vote SNP and tell him that we’d really, really like him to grant us another referendum?
I for one am sick of this so-called nation being on its fkin knees.
@Peekay
Yes they could.
It can take a long time.
Priority is given to areas of conflict or persecution.
They did appoint a SR a few years back to preempt conflict, he would be the best bet for a fast track.
Unfortunately, in the last couple of decades the UN’s authority has been eroded, especially by the USA, to a less extent, by Russia and, of course, the UK.
In particular with the Chagos Islander’s affair, although small in the scheme of things, it seems the UK is now willing to ignore international law.
Whether it would be willing to do so in the much larger and clear cut case of Scotland and therefore transition all they way to pariah state status, only time will tell.
I hope and suspect that non compliance with article 1 of the UN Charter and article 1 of the ICCPR treaty and therefore probable withdrawal from both, would be a step too far for the English electorate.
BBC Scotlandshire actually trailing Kaye wi’ an E’s phone in with “Should Scotland have the right to choose its own future”? Jeez – we are well down the slippery slope to a fascist dictatorship when the state propaganda organ can seriously suggest such a binary choice, without the least sense of irony.
@Stoker
The gist of the converation went a bit like we have all said on this site, at one point Gary Marshall actually said to Douglas Ross “Well why isn’t Boris Johnson dead in a ditch like he promised and at PMQs Boris Johnson said the once in a generation line himself about Brexit so how come he can say it and it’s just a remark but Scottish Politicians say it and you claim it’s set in stone forever”
Gary Robertson also asked Douglas Ross how long a generation was “Eh 30 or 40 or 50 years” came the answer
Basically Douglas Ross came across as exactly what he is
A wee Diddy
I thought I’d see how long I could suffer Call Kaye this morning and I have to say I did well in hanging in there for about 45 minutes as the Yoons did their best to justify Scotland being silenced with difficulty and avoiding mentioning their football team
One woman took the biscuit though as she said “The decision was taken in 2014 I’m aware there are other principalities, Scotland Ireland and Wales but that doesn’t justify another referendum” and she actually sounded Scottish
Principality eh! I did laugh but at the same time, Whaurs ma gun ahm pittin these folk away where they kin dae nae further harm
Socrates MacSporran says:
15 January, 2020 at 10:02 am
Every time a Tory, or Ian Murray, stands up and spouts lies about how Scotland is being governed – call-out their lies.
I would suggest that the SNP MPs jeer and howl at them, in the same way they jeer and howl at us. We will see how impartial Mr Speaker and the rest of the house is, when they tolerate one group of MPs doing this (no prizes for guessing which one) and then complain and try to silence the other for the exact same behaviour.
I favour option 6
Wings says about option 6
“
The main problem with it is that it’s very hard to justify a unilateral declaration of independence to the international community without a shred of measurable evidence that it’s the will of a majority of the Scottish people “
Ehh excuse me but we have a big majority MPs in Westminster elected by the people of Scotland
We have a big majority f MPs elected by the people of Scotland in the Scottish Parliament
It is a commonly held view here on wings that there should be a new wings party to target List seats and that appears to be the only option wings puts forward
I’ve nothing against that idea but in reality having all the List MPs supporting Scottish independence doesn’t really change the number of votes by the people of Scotland for Scottish independence which appears to be what wings is saying is the drawback at present.
If Westminster uses a FPTP system to do everything they ever do
I do not see that they have a case to argue against Scottish independence saying it has a majority of seats from Scottish people’s votes in both Westminster and Holyrood especially when we know that the voting system set up by Westminster it’s one that was made to prevent SNP ever getting a clear majority
@ Stu Campbell
Regarding Option 6.
1. We DON’T declare independence right away.
2. The SNP withdraw their MPs and form a convention of themselves, MEPs and MSPs and announce they have reconvened the Parliament of Scotland, as the forum and Parliament exercising Scotland’s sovereignty.
3. The PoS declares the refusal of a s30 unconstitutional abuse of Scotland’s sovereignty as is forced Brexit against the will of the people of Scotland.
4. It announces the Union treaty, as it was, is unilaterally revoked eg. UK Parliament no longer has sovereign power over Scotland. It announces the people of Scotland are sovereign, always were but, the UK abused this.
5. There will be a Parliament of Scotland referendum giving a choice of independence or negotiations for a new Union treaty. If Scotland votes for independence – Scotland will be independent.
6. Broadcasting and referendums etc are now reserved to the POS. New law of jail terms and unlimited fines for individuals and organisations who breach the neutrality of broadcasting during the referendum campaign.
Even If Scotland rejects full independence, as the 1707 Union treaty is already null and void, so the Parliament of Scotland will attempt to re-negotiate a new Union where Scotland retains the PoS with sovereign power to veto UK legislation as an equal partner is any future union.
The UK would not want such a new Union anyway where Scotland had any real sovereign power.
Which will be voted on in due course if negotiations are completed.
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Stoker @ 9.38
Thanks Stoker 🙂
Also…. As a warning shot to the council’s…
Actually cancelling the direct debits and using your right to pay cash done in enough numbers would cause huge problems for rouge council’s.
Paying that cash at the council’s own offices too will create chaos and have security issues for the sudden increase in cash to be banked…. Not forgetting paying in small denominations 🙂
Civil Disobedience needn’t be illegal and can be inclusive!
Im not so sure the legal route is a non starter The reason I say this has just been evidenced by Brexit. Eufope could not keep the JK in the Treaty by forcing it. Leverage yes, but nkt by just saying No you cannot leave.
The Treaty of Union is exactly the same. Co signed by two soverejgn nations who agreed to act as one entity. As far as I know there is nothing which dissolves Scotland as a nation in the Treaty. This also app!ies to England.
We do however officially recognise them as separate countrys in many ways. Sport, law, EVEL., and diffefent structures in services.
Had there been complete unification then provisions to make Scots law separate a!ong with education could never have been accepted.
The fact that our representatives are outnumbered 10
to 1 in the legislature should be an irrelevance in fact.
It is a case aboug the rights of Scotland as a signatory to a Treaty and its entitlement to end that Treaty if the people so choose.
both ruth davidson and adam tompkins are on record as saying that a tory government should NOT block a mandated request by the SG for indyref2/s30. why? it was because they believed it would push nos to yes
i, and many others, believe this to be correct. they have now backtracked on this because they have no choice, party policy is determined by bojo. the fact ruth has resigned is an indication that the scottish tories still believe their initial stance to be correct. bear in mind, they will have polling data to back up their belief.
I believe the SNP tactic is correct, it is they who have forced bojo into this position in an effort to redress the biggest problem we face, which you correctly highlighted in your article, we dont yet have 50+% support.
how unsustainable bojo’s refusal to grant a s30 is directly proportional to how big support for indy becomes.
I agree that making overtures to the EU/UN and other international bodies cant do any harm but, like you, i doubt they will “rip themselves a 2nd arsehole” for 45% of the people of scotland
I, like you, also think that calling UDI and or holding indyref2 without a s30 is a non starter. not because i believe that a sovereign scotland doesnt have the right to do so, it obviously does, but because it would risk ending in chaos, boycotted by unionist and councils and universally ignored by the international community.
If this is the case, then i struggle to see what else the SNP could or can do? Im all ears.
will we have indyref2 this year? that will depend on the speed and the size of the swing from no to yes. james kelly has now crowd funded a poll which may help clarify this point. Id like to think that we could hold indyref2 this year (legislative time table apart, where there’s a will there’s a way) but I see no means for Nicola to force one.
the swing from no to yes will be small, incremental but only in that one direction. the red letter days, 31st jan, 31st june and 31st dec are the ones to watch. unfortunately, the 31st dec will be the most telling and as such, i doubt the polls will have swung sufficiently before that date to pressurise bojo into caving in and granting a s30. I might be wrong, in which case, if the polls have swung in our favour before then, nicola might call a holyrood election before then. but i fear not.
but im fairly certain that by this time next year, we will be out of the eu with no deal. Ireland could well be in turmoil with a border raised across the north. the labour luvies in london will consider their loss on dec 12th as a bullet dodged and support for bojo and the tories will begin to crash. brexit is the unionist bag in scotland, not ours.
all in all, im quite upbeat, my biggest worry was that bojo would simply ignore the SG request and prevaricate about the bush, but he didnt, so we now, at least, have closure on this particular issue.
there are those who were hoping for indyref2 before we leave on the 31st of dec in an effort to bridge the gap (holding pen) between the uk and an indy scotland eu membership. I was one of them. But it was never in my or anyone elses power to grant it. It is for the people of scotland to decide and they have chosen to see exactly what brexit means. so be it.
We are continually being told by Tories like Jack, Gove, Murray and Jess Phillips that “The majority of Scots do not want another divisive independence referendum”. And how often do we have to put up with circular arguments about whether there is a mandate or not?
An OPTION 8 may be to settle these questions so we can move on. Hold a referendum to ask folks if they want an independence referendum. No need for a Section 30 order as not a constitutional question in itself.
If feeling really cheeky, could include a second question along the lines of “If there is to be another independence referendum, how would you vote if asked if Scotland should withdraw from the UK and resume as an independent country?”
Could probably happen in the space of a few months if political leaders were suitably motivated.
Scotlands government really need to stop fighting on the battlefield that our Westminster enemies choose that is a huge mistake. The Scots Parliament as one of the two signatories to the treaty of 1707, simply has anounce that we are withdrawing from said treaty. Due to numerous violations of said treaty by England much to the detriment, of scotland and her people’s. Game over for England.
@admiral 10:09am
100% correct, the very idea that a broadcaster should even be posing the question on whether a people, a country, a Nation should have the right to choose, in this day and age is unbelievable
Do Independence supporters have to sit in the back of buses now or have yellow stars sewn on to our clothes and wait to be told our fate, because the folk who that happened to sat in their homes and feared the sounds of white authority or jackboots, but Scots have to fear Englishmen in suits now
terence callachan says:
It is a commonly held view here on wings that there should be a new wings party to target List seats and that appears to be the only option wings puts forward
I’ve nothing against that idea but in reality having all the List MPs supporting Scottish independence doesn’t really change the number of votes by the people of Scotland for Scottish independence which appears to be what wings is saying is the drawback at present.
————
this is true, but the idea of another indy party on the list isnt designed to increase the vote % of indy parties. its designed to remove unionist list msps, ensuring a pro indy majority and locking out the possibility of a grand unionist coalition taking power and shelving the question of independence for 5 years. this can be done with the 45% support we already have.
I’m mildly amused by seasoned activists still relying on the Scottish Government, the Scottish Parliament or the SNP to lead the charge for Independence.
All the above are part & parcel of the establishment, would it be the BritNazi or the ScotFeart.
No BritNazi colony has ever gained independence through the establishment channels. Ever.
It has always been a popular uprising that made it happen.
But there are too many cosy buggers here that don’t care enough about democracy, or the poorest and the vulnerable, or even their own children, and live eating our future. See inaction on climate change as an example.
When a revolution starts, it’s always a minority to kick off, but is often enough.
While I’m not advocating a campaign of armed confrontation (we’ve seen what happened in Northern Ireland, the BritNazi Establishment is still occupying some of Ireland), imagine the numbers peacefully marching at AOUB events (80/100 thousand people) surrounding some critical UK infrastructure to cripple it with a blockade.
Make Scots such a nuisance for the rest of the UK to make it clamour for us to go.
Add the sweetener of North Sea Oil, and you’ll see even the staunchest BritNazi agree that we should go.
Make the UK an unsustainable proposition.
It will be living hell for a while, but at the end of it there’s a better nation waiting.
if Scotland were to have a referendum this year we’d lose, a couple of years of Brexit pain and Indy support will reach 60%, well worth the wait.
Thanks for response Cameron. I’ve lived in number of British colonies, and some of them since their freedom. When they were colonies I was often embarrassed by the behaviour and language of the colonizers – all of them since becoming Indpendent have florished,with the exception of Hong Kong, which has always been economically succesful, but now has drifted backwards into to another form of colonization. Some of the original colonizers of course were Scots, Irish and Welsh which reminds me of the behaviour of the Israelis to the Palestinians and the Irish in New York. Why do the colonized and persecuted become colonizers and persecutors themselves?
In case the penny hasn’t dropped for some, Brexit challenges the scheme of internationals human rights law and the international legal order in general. It sticks two big fingers up to the concepts of liberty and social democracy.
Observations of concern.
First the littany of lies regarding the performance of the SNP government which has been added to the mantra list of Tory ministers and regurgitated at every oportunity for the last few weeks. The implication being that this preparatory to Westminster intervention in or even suspension of Holyrood.
Second the 60% Bill in the HoL. A second front backstop.
Suggestion.
A poll asking whether an indyref2 in Scotland should be agreed to by Westminster if the Scottish Government votes for one.
Poll carried out in ENGLAND.
I don`t know how you can say the legal route is a non starter.
It was Joanna Cherry`s case through the Court of Session which romped past the Supreme Court to the ECJ, which affirmed that Article 50 could be revoked, which breathed life into the entire UK Remain argument. Scots Law in action.
It was Joanna Cherry`s case through the Court of Session which romped past the Supreme Court and reigned in the UK Prime Minister`s unlawful prorogation of Parliament. Scots Law in action.
Scots Law exists by virtue of the same Constitution as Scottish Sovereignty, so Scotland`s Constitutional strength has already seen action twice and has not been found wanting.
In fact, you could argue that two relatively minor cases of Constitutional “housekeeping” have done more to steer Brexit and hold the Westminster Regime to account than anything “political” either in Holyrood or Westminster. Our politics might be impotent but our legal Constitution manifestly isnt.
Bill McLean
I used to be able to spout this stuff at a psychoanalytical level (in my dreams). 😉
Colonizing and decolonizing minds
https://m.tau.ac.il/humanities/philos/dascal/papers/Colonizing%20and%20decolonizing%20minds.doc
Matt Hancock signals A&E waiting targets likely to be scrapped
Matt Hancock has signalled that four-hour waiting targets for A&E are likely to be scrapped for the NHS in England after the worst figures on record this winter.
From the Guardian.
I sincerely hope the next time the Yoons criticise the Scottish NHS this is thrown forcefully back in their faces.
I think you forgot to write “no indy ref in 2020” at the end of your own suggestion.
Asked the following on Twitter this morning, just before 7am:
‘Would you like to see indyref2 being held on Sept 17th 2020?’
1588 votes cast so far
Yes 92.8%
No 7.2%
Okay, okay, usual caveats, it’s just Twitter, it’s a personal account etc, but interesting all the same.
https://twitter.com/ianbhood/status/1217336365958008832
Alex Montrose says:
if Scotland were to have a referendum this year we’d lose, a couple of years of Brexit pain and Indy support will reach 60%, well worth the wait.
——————–
unfortunately, i think you are right
Corrado Mella @ 10.30
Apart from this is a first world democracy and the 21st century so the old type resistance won’t work here.
It’s not necessary
We’ll find a peaceful route to do this thing…. This bloody Union has spilled enough Scottish Blood not one drop more of our young as far as I’m concerned.
Apart from all of that Corrado….
History teaches that the very people who can lead and win a revolution are the very people you absolutely do not want to finish up in control of yer Country!
Aye?
@Chic McGregor 10:32am
You’d be asking England to take yet another decision over Scotland, it doesn’t matter even if they said Yes it can’t be their decision or you would be agreeing Scotland is their vassal state to decide on as they please
That doesn’t sound like you Chic
Scotland will never free itself from Westminster’s tyranny, until folk accept that contemporary British constitutionalism is no longer compatible with social democracy, and the Prime minister is a fascist.
https://www.goodenoughcaring.com/the-journal/the-colonized-mind/
Just a hunch but I wonder if the Eu hinted to Nicola if she bust a gut to try and keep the whole U.K. in then they’d look favourably on independence. Could explain a lot. The snp have been working hard in Europe and beyond to raise our profile as a soon to be independent state. Craig Murray is right about the recognition of the international community in this. Plus come 31 January and England out you’re not telling me that the Eu wouldn’t back an indy Scotland? And go out if it’s way to help us succeed while the potential lesson of England going down the tubes cos of brexit would be a fine example to any countries who were thinking similar.
I agree with the route above. Holyrood 2021. Annoying to wait. But heh. What’s another 8 months.
But whatever plan/timescale snp will know that if they don’t act before feb 1st they are toast.
SC writes at 10:21 am:
“the fact ruth has resigned is an indication that the scottish tories still believe their initial stance to be correct.”
How do you reach that conclusion? I and many others happen to believe she was told to resign, for going against Bozo in every round of the party leadership contest, or be unceremoniously kicked out in a very public manner. Either that or she got wind of what was heading in her direction and jumped before she was humiliatingly pushed.
Your options seem correct however by the time we get to 2021 the farmers and fishermen will have seen their business trashed, unemployment will be taking off.
If they still vote no then let natural selection kick in
Fill your boots peeps.
RATIONALITY AND COLONISATION: THE COLONISATION OF THE MIND
https://www.academia.edu/6619110/RATIONALITY_AND_COLONISATION_THE_COLONISATION_OF_THE_MIND
Breeks @ 10.37
The “no legal route” is correct Breeks… The Court could make Westminster go back because they didn’t keep to the rules that are written down for closing it.
There are no rules written down which say Westminster must pass a section 30.
If we wanted a different legal answer we would need to ask a different legal question…. Not forgetting any rule that is written down which Westminster don’t want enforced they can un write it down and the Courts can’t do a thing about it.
schrodingers cat says:
15 January, 2020 at 10:43 am
Alex Montrose says:
if Scotland were to have a referendum this year we’d lose, a couple of years of Brexit pain and Indy support will reach 60%, well worth the wait.
——————–
unfortunately, i think you are right
Clearly neither of you are reading what is currently being said.
And for the record, when and if Scotland ever does have a referendum, with the monopolised BritNat UK media indoctrination and propaganda running unchecked 24-7, I suspect we might find any number of referendums difficult to win, whatever the argument and however long we prevaricate wringing our hands in impotence.
When you`re playing in a rigged game, you gotta think outside the box.
Very clear and concise analysis. Many thanks for that.
If the Holyrood Election is to be the defacto vote on Indy (assuming Hollyrood isn’t shut down by Boris).
It will require that all SNP leaders and membership /yes supporters are aware that this is the plan, and then all out campaigning for same. None of this are they/aren’t they, cards close to the chest, Nicola has a secret plan, nonsense.
And I would suggest we think about how the British Establishment could or would Nobble the SNP – what form would that take, and how would it be enacted by those who are nobbled?
My guess is they would seek to bribe, entrap, or threaten key players within the SNP. For those not bribable, or entrappable – serious threats on the safety of their loved ones would be enough. The pill would then be sweetened, with plumbs for their loved ones, a place at Oxbridge for the kids, or a fancy job at the BBC – after all, this worked well for the Labour Party.
They would not seek to have the Nobbled ones step down, or do 180 turns, on no, too obvious, far better to have them in situ, in power and influence, constantly spiking the proverbial guns, and shouting hold, hold, hold – not so much a case of keeping powder dry, very much a case of pulling punches.
If a plan is declared, a workable, clear, democratic plan – it becomes so much more difficult to operate the pulled punches game.
For all Yessers and SNP members, if you have the above behaviour in mind, it at least opens you up to the ability to go round them (it would be a complete waste of time attempting to prove the above, and would achieve nothing even if you could). The objective should be to have a road map plan fully declared so that we can all put our shoulders to the wheel and work towards it.
One example of going round them might be, if the SNP starts losing credibility over things like GRA, AS trial, possible bad publicity against NS, for our big hitters, to be prepared to stand as Independent Independents in a one off Indy vote. The likes of JCherry, P Whitford, Black, Blackford etc all have enough profile and experience. This would have the benefit of preventing the British Establishment trying to cut the head off, as there would be no head.
In ordinary times this would be a bad idea – think of the original LibDem manifestation or the more recent LibDem/Tory Remain party which I can’t even recall the name of. But these are not ordinary times. People will rally round a single National Issue, especially if it is promoted by proven professional people.
I hope the above makes sense. If it is all going to hinge on a Holyrood vote. What will our plan be when they shut it down, in all but name. Not a lot of point in blocking roads in London and pissing off ordinary English people – the thing that is most effective is if the action affects big money.
All this talk about waiting until the conditions are right. That is politics, which should not think itself in authority to decide which laws are or are not respected. That’s excessive direct democracy and populist nonsense on stilts. Constitutional practice in Britain is now damaged beyond repair, IMHO.
The next ‘event’ will come this week – and may be why Scotgov are delaying their response to Johnson – when the Scotgov’s referendums bill either gets royal assent, referred to Supreme Court, or vetoed by powers of the Sec of State for Scotland.
Does Holyrood & Scots Gov have the competence to unpick the orignal Treaty of Union and whether it is being applied correctly?
As Holyrood was a reboot of the original Scottish Parliament then does a review of this nature not fall into scope as an inherited power?
Malta independence
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1963/dec/10/stolper-report
“I think you forgot to write “no indy ref in 2020” at the end of your own suggestion.”
That really ought to be taken as read by now. I haven’t exactly been ambiguous on the subject.
@Corrado Mella
If you seriously want something, you don’t care how you get it.
The Scots seem constrained by a reluctance to let that happen.
Compared to liberation movements elsewhere, and I presume we regard the SNP as part of such, the Scottish one appears to be carrying too much British baggage, too much sentimental attachment to the racist ‘fairness’ myths with which textbook Britishness is infused.
There is exceptionalism at work. The notion that we are different from x y or z and have a unique road map to independence is simply insular hubris and spectacularly myopic.
Seen from abroad the Scots look like ditherers or worse unprepared or unwilling for the turbulence and sacrifices that the path to independence may demand. Hence the default, procrastinating, bloodless posture of ‘legalism’.
If its bargain basement independence that is wanted, you’ll have a long wait for that actuary approved fire sale.
Unless, of course, you’re prepared to start the fire yourself.
SNP settling in for another 5 years. Indy is now as good as dead for at least that length of time. The tories will never give us it unless they can win it.
And not forgetting this snidey little Bill that has appeared at Westmonster:
https://services.parliament.uk/Bills/2019-20/referendumscriteria.html
@Dr Jim
The purpose of that poll in England would be to put pressure on the ruling nutteratti. They are far more likely (indeed only) to listen to the Englkish voice.
Daisy Walker @ 11.00
Unfortunately Daisy laying out a route map may be the very trigger for Westminster to suspend Holyrood.
While I don’t know for sure what kind of method they’d use I’m in no doubt if Scottish Government give Westminster a reason they’d take it.
Mibbi that’s why the SNP don’t give much advance warning of their intentions and for all the very carefully worded stuff.
The backlash for closing Holyrood would be much less damaging to the UK (international standing included) than the loss of Scottish Resources.
I’m sure they would rather just chip away at Holyrood over the next 10 Tory year’s but I’m also sure one wrong move and they’d take their chance with it…
They managed to keep Stormont shut till they secured and recalibrate Westminster, because, I think, they want to dump N.Ireland carefully .. and that parliament has all sorts of legal protection!
Rev Stu @ 11.11
Aw… But I really really want one….be a lamb and go and get it for me 🙂
The scots Parliament that signed the treaty of 1707 was adjourned on the 25th of March 1707. When the Parliament was reconvened, in 1999, then speaker winnie ewing said this, the scots Parliament adjourned on the 25th of March 1707, is hereby reconvened. So in truth it’s the same Parliament that signed the original treaty, and therefore this same parliament can repeal it. You would think the high heed yins in the snp and Parliament wid kin this.
Stu…’grand plan that they should have had ready yesterday’…maybe it is ready. Nicola has looked awfully confident lately…maybe there is a third party watching from the sidelines that come into play in a couple of weeks!
Please try to understand Westminster’s lack of respect for our human rights. That might sound woke-ishly liberal, but your rights are vital to your well-being and economic potential.
https://www.theadvocatesforhumanrights.org/human_rights_basics
Perhaps Johnson’s arrogance and bullying will be enough to persuade some more labour voters to cross the fence and quite frankly if Scots accept this boorish behaviour, we don’t deserve to become independent.
Do we know that we have the necessary support to win a referendum now ? No we don’t. Like it or not we are not yet the political voice of a self evident pro indy majority.
What we are is a movement that was surprised by it’s own resilience after 2014 and is now surprised again that our more recent progress has not been greater !
This situation is producing an exotic variety of adventurist suggestions on how to square that circle. The failure of any one of them would be disastrous – and let’s be clear they are all big gambles.
Like it or not Scotland is still largely brooding on both the rolling crisis of the uk and Brexit; even though it now considers indy to be a serious possibility at some stage.
Johnson’s uk is going for an English, jingo, anti democratic solution in the face of coming waves of crisis for which it has no thought out solutions.
We must not do what they want us to do – break our own necks!
We need to build, build, build support on doorstep and street by campaigning on real issues which feed into indy and simultaneously be ready to seize an opportunity when crisis produces it.
We’re in danger of falling into a ‘now or never’ trap fuelled by frustration and impatience. That’s what our opponents want – there are no benefits to the uk – they need us to bust ourselves. DON’T DO IT.
Keep cool and keep pushing.
If Scots accept Johnson’s arrogant bullying then we don’t deserve independence.
Does anyone else think all this dithering and Brexit saving England stuff, might actually be part of the plan A to deceive and deflect the WM Britnats down a side road away from their actual intentions which nobody is supposed to know about?
AS was a master of this, he took Cameroon to the cleaners with the Edinburgh Agreement.
Perhaps one answer is to call an Indyref on the same day as the Scottish Parliament Election in May 2021.
SNP hierarchy are concerned of a boycott by No voters, which worked for Spain. But if Indyref 2 is held on the same day as the May 2021 Scottish Elections, how can the unionists square their message of vote Tory, Libdem or Labour in the constituency and regional list vote. While also saying don’t turn out and boycott a ballot paper for Indyref 2? That’s an impossible message to get out. They would be forced to campaign and take part.
There is also a concern about the cost of Indy Ref2 being used against us. If its on the same day as the May 2021 election, there is minimal extra cost. There will essentially be one campaign, no extra cost for local councils organising voting days, polling officers and returning officers. Its really a bit of extra printing cost for ballot papers and a bit of admin cost.
Lastly, the vote could be taken in two ways. It could be a straight out Indyref2 YES NO to Indy, or a question asking do you want to give consent for Scottish Parliament to hold Indyref 2.
If nothing is acceptable to the British government as a legitimate mandate for a second Independence referendum and we have no other cards worth playing, then surely we’ve all woken-up this morning in a dictatorship? This is a deep qualitative change which, to my mind, changes the game completely. It now seems we can have as many electoral majorities as we like, but that alone won’t alter the position of the UK government regarding Scotland’s wishes.
This is the sort of situation we used to imagine only happened elsewhere, in dictatorships, in fact. With the new game must come new rules. It remains to be seen how long the avowedly Liberal Democratic S.N.P. will last in such a dictatorship.
The San Andreas Fault is a continental fault running through California.
The fault divides into three segments, each with different characteristics and a different degree of earthquake risk.
The slip rate along the fault ranges from 20 to 35 mm (0.79 to 1.38 in) per year.
Not to be confused with:
The St Andrews Fault is a consciousness fault running through the minds of Scotland’s inhabitants.
The fault currently divides approximately equally into two segments resulting in Scotland existing in constitutional limbo.
The slip rate along the fault changes predominantly through natural wastage by approximately 1% per year, thus increasing the size of the segment that believe Scotland is a country fully capable of governing itself, rather than being stuck in an undemocratic union with its southern neighbour and plagued with being outvoted by 10 : 1 and constantly overruled by a bunch of psychos it didn’t elect.
“Liz g says:
RE…. The council’s acting for Westminster and not the Scottish electorate to refuse to hold a vote!
I suspect a Council Tax Strike will soon change their minds”
Except we would be hurting ourselves if we did that. Why not go for the much simpler one of cancelling your TV licence – and that one hits Westminster’s pockets and their propaganda machine.
#NowIsTheTime #BoycottTheBBC be #TVLicenceFree.
AltClut
Waiting until the circumstances are right, places politics above the law. It is this level of ignorance of the law that has gotten us in this mess in the first place.
“It’s not an easy road. But a legal challenge followed by either a legal referendum or a plebiscitary election is the only one we can see that doesn’t lead down a dead end. Whether the SNP has either the wit or the stomach to take it is something we’re only going to have to wait a little while longer to find out”.
It’s this or nothing then, we have everything to lose or everything to gain, I say throw the dice.
I think what we need right now is a poll to determine where exactly we are with regards to the percentage of folk in Scotland who support a second indyref and independence for that matter.
I’m quietly confident it’s over the 50% mark. From there on, we can decide which direction to take.
@Graf Midgehunter 11.38 am
If only! I would love if it could be so..
AS was and is a true maverick and thinks outside the Westminster rule book which is maybe why he finds himself in the position he is in…
Case to the UKSC, where without any ability to compel Westminster to do our bidding we’ll lose, followed by the 2021 election on a single-issue manifesto pledge to repeal the 1707 Act of Union.
Works for me!
There was never going to be any easy way out from the English maw, especially when, as now, they’re in “fight ’em on the beaches” mode. That doesn’t mean you stop trying. Unfortunately, it’s going to get dirty. Forget that “civic nationalism” stuff, you’re going to have to create strife, discord and bad feeling between Scots to make this happen.
Re my above comment I think James Kelly of Scots Goes PoP, in about to conduct a poll to find out roughly where we stand. Anything above 50% should be used as a catalyst to push on somehow.
Wait till 2021 gives the SNP government time to get everybody organised and get other countries involved, must be some support from America, Canada, New Zealand, and Europe once Brexits comes, organise get everyone thinking the same way no in fighting because that just plays into the hands of the unionists and find out exactly where we stand regarding our legal rights as we do have our own legal system or have we?
Rm
I wouldn’t look to Scotland’s benches for support, some of them are so out-of-touch that they are unashamed about their lack of respect for constitutional justice.
Breeks says:
when and if Scotland ever does have a referendum, with the monopolised BritNat UK media indoctrination and propaganda running unchecked 24-7, I suspect we might find any number of referendums difficult to win, whatever the argument and however long we prevaricate wringing our hands in impotence
—————–
the estabishments control via the msm and the bbc is on the wane and will only get weaker
we are only impotent because we are not the majority. not yet anyway
If the westminster government institutes direct rule as they seem to be heading towards… for what other purpose are the UK hubs for as they at present manned by three thousand civil servents with no remit or authority.
Then at last we will have a target for direct action, picketing the hubs 24/7 will hurt nobody and still make Scotland ungovernable by exterior forces!
The drawback of meekly adhering to OCD pinhead dancers and their interpretation of the law as if “the rules” are set in stone for ever, nevermind a generation.
Imagine for a moment Rosa Parks was Scottish…
Bus Driver: “Get outta that seat hen”
Rosa Parks: “Okay”
Stoker says:
15 January, 2020 at 10:49 am
SC writes at 10:21 am:
Either that or she got wind of what was heading in her direction and jumped before she was humiliatingly pushed.
This. As one of her long-suffering constituents, I can confirm that she was well on course to lose her seat next year. True, she would likely get back in on the list, but her already threadbare credibility would be shot to pieces.
She decided to cash in with the media appearances and consultancy work while she still had the opportunity. Defeat next year would have closed those avenues, as well.
@ AltClut 11.35
Agreed.
Whats Stus option8 ?
please do reveal your true calling as the All knowing messiah !! lol !
bring on the Wings party
I want to see Carlaw’s face when he bumped out
To be able to show a sustained support for independence youd have to stop equating Scottish Independence with socialism. We arent all so fucking thick and unaware of the 20th century to be convinced that a bunch of hyper woke, economically illiterate, self righteous posturing hypocrites should be given the reins to utterly sink the country while we give outr new freedom to globalist institutions
“Whats Stus option8 ?
please do reveal your true calling as the All knowing messiah !! lol !”
The one explained in the last eight paragraphs of the article, you fucking twat. Maybe try reading it.
Joe
Good to see you’re still living, that’ll relieve RN. Sorry if I’ve been unkind but Scotland’s political and legal ‘disappearance’, is harmful to good mental health.
The world has already re-structured so that globalist institutions have now become vital. Do you buy a new car when it run into mechanical problems, or do you get it fixed?
There is little doubt that the current SNP leadership’s idée fixe is the securing of independence via popular plebiscite and that we must all temporize awaiting the right moment.
This is either a well considered strategy for success or a strategy for doing nothing.
We are at the position the Québecois were some decades ago, appearing to be on the edge of success. The 1980 and 1995 referendums did not endorse that.
The nationalists in Québec were adherents of the tactic being pursued by the SNP.
The feeling that Scotland might end up as political clone of Québec is very possible.
Does this link represent a possible future?
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/22/world/canada/quebec-independence-elections.html
And would the SNP be very happy with such a devo max dispensation?
A ‘cake and eat it’ solution that the Johnson régime might be tempted to propose?
The devo tweek that saves the UK’s face?
@Mark Robertson,
If nothing else I think Stu would at least take action of some description, rather than the SNP tactic of sitting until covered in cobwebs saying the same thing over and over about Scotland being out of Europe against its will, or is being stripped of devolved powers aagainst its will.p
If Scotland’s politicians declared a Parliament of Scotland exercising Scotland’s sovereignty, that “sovereign” parliament is not subject to UK Parliament or “UK Constitutional law”.
A sovereign parliament is not bound by others’ laws: it’s sovereign.
So it doesn’t matter what current UK Constitutional law says about the current Union, that would not apply.
A sovereign parliament is not bound by the Acts of Union from 1707: ask Westminster about that if you don’t believe me. So, a SOP exercising Scottish sovereignty can void the Union Treaty regarding a single (sovereign) GB Parliament that rules over Scotland.
A SOP exercising Scottish sovereignty would be a creator of statutory Scots Law, it would be exercising Scottish political and legal sovereignty of the people, nothing illegal or contrary to international law.
It would be entirely in compliance with international law and the UN regarding self-determination and exercise of national sovereignty.
@Corrado Mella
Absent a formal campaign two things operate
1. Folk have no reason to open their doors to campaigners and take part. Doors will be closed in our faces and folk will ask ‘why are you bothering us?’. This happened early in the last campaign. Some folk refused to engage until the last few months of the campaign last time.
2. It would ask people to commit to an open ended campaign with no firm achievement point. After the Brexit vote Dundee RIC polled a Dundee suburb to take the temperature. I took part. Imagine if we had had to continue ever since and now Scotgov says we just have to wait and keep banging our heids against Bojo’s brick wall. Where is my motivation to continue?
As it happens Dundee RIC meets for the first time since this evening. I will be there and see what is proposed and perhaps contribute my 5p. Sadly I can’t afford to contribute much more. But we shall see.
If it is an equall Union why do we have to ask for permission ???and it says a lot about our MPs when the ordinary SNP members have got to tell them how to answer and act at Westminster as I said even I could hold the Gov., to task better than they are doing as someone said they listen to the daily farce of tweedle dum and tweedle Dee and never rise awf their arsenal
It’ll come as no surprise that I don’t agree that option 4 is a non starter because….time.
If the UK (pop. 65 m) can hold a referendum in 22 – weeks, from the decision to have one to polling day, why does Scotland (pop. 5 m) need 46 + weeks? Answer, it doesn’t.
If the argument is that the SNP leadership hasn’t got the bottle to go down this route, well, maybe so. We won’t know till the end of the month. But their statements so far show no sign of fear. Ian Blackford made some strong statements in an interview yesterday. Pete Wishart told the Tories in Westminster to give up “it’s over”.
https://twitter.com/PeteWishart/status/1217127957623386114?s=20
Yes, it could all be bluster. But so could Johnston’s and Jack’s denials.
Then there is indeed Real politik. The UK intends to negotiate trade deals with the EU from 1st Feb. We are still governed by EU rules until December. The SNP leadership say we won’t be taken out of Europe against our will. That might make bargaining away Scottish energy and fishing waters a bit more difficult for Westminster.
It’s too early to be gloomy IMO.
I keep wondering why we can organise and have a GE in 6 weeks but we can’t have a referendum within 6 months!
In Pavlovian terms Johnson will have now triggered instincts of defence in hundreds of thousands of Scots previously lukewarm about or opposed to independence. With enforced Scexit from the EU to shortly follow, thus magnifying those instincts in many.
In the past, other Westminster PMs avoided triggering such instincts in Scots when knocking back our national aspirations. Even Theresa May said “Now is not the time”. Thus implying that the door to indyref2 was not slammed shut.
Johnson’s imperious actions show he has none of the caution of the professional politician. He truly is the leader of the arrogant and xenophobic brexiteers.
The huge collective wave of the defence instincts of Scots is coming, now that our right to self-determinatoon has been officially denied by the UK government.
The Scottish National Party had better get its surfboard ready to ride that wave.
@shug
The wings party is non existent !
However Stu allready has no ideas on where to go and how to get us there , but do keep up with your donations .
Reading the comments on this posting has been enjoyable as there seems to be a lot of good input of energy and wise comments that dont fit with the negative Stu wings Party !!!
Critisism is not the same as being industrious STU !? !?!?
kapelmeister
Damn it, why didn’t I think of that? 🙂
Option ‘xxrt’ to your option 6….
Nicola announces a date for the referendum. Then declares indy on 1st Feb at 10.00am. The pre-arranged UN peacekeeping and election oversight qcontingent arrives by plane at 10.01 at Prestwick, with more by ship at Rosyth. Invited by the interim leader of the new independent nation.
The newly independent (and rather surprised!) nation takes the white helmets to their hearts as we do all incomers. The referendum proceeds to an overwhelmingly positive result.
Doris cowers in her fridge and wonders what went wrong with Demonic Cumming’s plan.
Just idle musings from my happy place.
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Here’s a plan of action:
Scotland’s MPs, MSPs and MEPs: reconvene the ancient Parliament of Scotland to exercise Scotland’s sovereign power following the abuses of Scotland’s sovereignty, eg denial of democracy and forced EU Exit. Defend our sovereignty now – by exercising it.
That parliament would not be subject to UK Parliament, UK constitutional law or other laws as it would be exercising sovereignty.
It would be simply exercising national sovereingty in accord with international law.
@stu
I read it mate but didnt interpretate a Wise Stu wings party mandate to further our cause for independence ,im sorry !
I do however notice an increase of foul language from you to posters on the blogg ,
You need to refrain from crude language in public if you are to get anywhere in politics ya dum cunt !
Steve Ashton@1.03
“Take the white helmets to their hearts”
You can shove that idea where the sun don’t shine.
If we have to depend on that sorry shower, then we will be truly FKD. (They have form)
Stu, great post as always, for the moment I am “keeping the faith in Nic & Co”. Another couple of weeks and then we will see where we are.
Capella @12.51
I think there’s lots to feel gloomy about come 1st Feb.
Unless the SNP come up with a bold set of actions on 31st January that puts independence firmly on the immediate to short term horizon, then of course our resources and loss of geographic protected status for food & drink etc will be a bargaining chip in the EU trade deal; and any other trade deal the UK can muster.
In the absence of something truly seismic coming from Nicola / SNP (e.g. a declaration of independence) then the EU will simply negotiate with the UK as that is the member state. It’s a certainty the EU will demand concessions on fishing grounds amongst other things which WM will happily give in return for city of London concessions.
The EU may be politically sympathetic to Scotland but it’s up to us to do something to bring about independence. What they won’t do is show any sympathy when trade talks begin – they are the world’s largest trading bloc not a charity.
What Nicola does next is so important. And doing more of the same i.e. nothing – is suicide.
Ottomanboi says:
There is little doubt that the current SNP leadership’s idée fixe is the securing of independence via popular plebiscite and that we must all temporize awaiting the right moment.
This is either a well considered strategy for success or a strategy for doing nothing.
—————–
what else can nicola do? the only way to independent is a 50%+ vote in a s30 referendum
nicola’s strategy is about to deliver one of the missing pieces to this puzzle, 50%+ support for indy. i wouldnt call that doing nothing. indeed it is the most important part to the puzzle
We have 2 weeks till we are no longer a member state of the EU, I’m thinking thats the reason perhaps for the SNP delay.
The EU aren’t able to comment much on the internal politics of a member state, that stops.
I’m hoping all those trips to EU leaders have something in the hat, lots of maybees, I’m thinking.
But anything has weight because the UK dictatorship is in trade talks with the EU, thats big pressure we don’t have….
If anyone was still in doubt how clueless Jess Phillips was/is about Scotland…one only has to look at WHO she appointed as her Scottish adviser..Blair McDougall…Head strategist of Better Together…the very thing …the VERY thing…that is …….Better Together…..that VERY thing that sunk Labour in Scotland….a campaign that saw Labour colluding with Tories and being their willing hand maidens to entrap Scotland in a (non) Union to then see EVEL heralded in as a result before the ink was dry on the result of the Indy Ref 2014…..and thus ensured that they, Labour, could never be revived politically in Scotland…..much to the delight and satisfaction of their Better Together masters the Tories…they done them up like a kipper….and Jess Phillips is ensuring that once again they align with Boris’s Tories in keeping Scotland imprisoned in a Tory Brexit Britain they did not vote to be part of…a kind of mini revival of BT the post Brexit sequel…wow Jess you and Blair are THE perfect pair to ensure Labour never ever are revived in Scotland…knock yourself out Hen…you’re doing a fine job for promoting independence in Scotland…Lol
Jess’s strategy :
Contempt..Yes
Disinterest…Yes
Trolling…Yes
Ignorance..Yes
Clueless…Yes
Indifference…Yes
Delusion..Yes
Whatever the future strategy deployed by the SNP …one does have to admit that with politicians like Jess Phillips indirectly on our side..Lol..we have to be grateful that she and others like her ARE ignorant of politics past and present within Scotland and that their knowledge is skewed to such an extent that they make even MORE tactical mistakes.
FFS is Jess not aware of this :
“Know Thy Enemy. If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle”.
Fortunately she does NOT know her ‘enemy’ and I feel sadly lacks self awareness in her dishonest grasp of this situation through her woeful misrepresentation and willing misunderstanding of us, who want independence, as somehow unbelievably a “threat to working people” …with no sense of irony of her own fellow countrymen via Brexit mania….and she is making the same mistake others have made in underestimating our cause indeed misrepresenting it because she assumes too much without understanding what it is that she is facing nay fighting against. Arrogance and entitlement is going to be their downfall ….together with contempt and ignorance…and a blatant inability to recognise the needs of Scots….negative traits that seem to be embedded in their Union uber alles DNA….
I wait with bated breath as to what the next move in this saga will be….on both sides of the constitutional debate….but somehow I think it will down to the people, population, to determine the final outcome….both Scottish and English…the Scots , by a majority, to want to be independent….and the English to also want to be TRULY independent….remember if they, the English, did not want to ‘pay’ to be in the EU why do you think they will ‘pay’ for us, the Scots, to remain in the UKnotOK ( their political masters may find their past comes back to haunt them in their repeated statement that England subsidises Scots)…oh the irony if that were to happen…for English voters to campaign for Scotland to be out of the UKnotOK….Laugh …I would never stop …mucho back peddling would we see via Unionist politicians of all colours…perhaps a huge trend on Twitter needs to be started….if you can’t beat them join them…well join them in the sense of repeating untruths….Lol
What Nicola does next is so important. And doing more of the same i.e. nothing – is suicide.
i say again, is increasing support above 50% doing nothing?
what else is there?
schrodingers cat
Your experience of international law may have left you disappointed, but your experience has been is some shitty places. The Scottish government damages support for the structure of international law, by not making use of international law to defend us from Westminster. If we keep on using Westminster methods, we’ll be at it for a lot longer than Scotland will enjoy legal protection from the law.
lol@Mark Robertson
….legal protection by and from the law.
Britain is no longer a social democracy, so constitutional procedural-ism that is consistent with contemporary British constitutional practice, can not be considered supportive of social democracy.
@cam
i think nicola will pursue this in the eu/un and international courts. I dont know whether she will win, im not a lawyer. however, we do have lawyers in the yes movement, lallans peat worrier etc, who dont think she will.
Im not sure it matters since these endevours will also be played out in the court of public opinion in scotland. The most important court. if all nicola succeeds in doing is to clarify to the people of scotland that the uk isnt a union of equals and its subordinate status, it is probably worth pursuing
getting 50%+ support in scotland is a necessary step
the article by CMurray makes a couple of good points; taking the UK to court with some kind of legalistic tomfoolery based on our understanding of the act of union, is not going to work; its international law you need. “international law”, the UN, etc are at times treated with respect and obeyed, or treated with contempt and ignored by the major powers, all depending.
– um, okay. Then he uses as an example – Kosovo. Which is interesting.
From what I have read Kosovo is an illegitimate gangster terrorist state, operating as a global narco-hub, funnelling all the afghan powder into europe; it is also run by the CIA. Its moral right to exist as an independent nation is dubious at best, and yet it is a country and we are not. Why so?
– because the Americans said so, more or less, boiling it all down. So, we would need some kind of a favour from a guy our leaders have taken pleasure in annoying. That was clever; ok hes a cunt, but you dont need to tell him that, just like you dont humiliate the waiter till after you have eaten.
The trannies may be powerful, but they lack this level of hard power (as yet).
– can someone arrange for “10 plagues” to hit London?
schrodingers cat
Politics does my heed in. 😉
Look on the bright side, at least the Tories are going to crowdfund the half a miilion pounds to get Big Ben to chime on Friday the 31st to rub salt in the Brexit wounds.
And it looks like it will mainly be Tory politicians funding it. What a bunch of tossers.
I thought Holyrood governments could hold consultative referendums whenever they want? Wasn’t the brexit referendum a consultative one?
Perhaps we should be looking at how the Iron Curtain countries got independence and follow that model.
The international community had no problem with that on the whole.
Dear SNP,
We need martyrs.
As a foot soldier since Winnie won the Hamilton by-election I have to ask why 2020?. We have had our ebbs and flows our ups and downs but the movement has always progressed. The influx of members of the SNP concerned me at the time as I thought that these people were looking for a quick fix. Look back to the 1950’s when Nationalists were looked upon as weirdos spouting unrealistic dreams and ideals now look how mainstream our idea of independence has become. As my Granny used to say keep a calm souch.
I may be out of step with others here but I’m not sure a late 2020 Indy ref is such a great idea. It needed to be spring 2020 at the latest.
With a Holyrood election next year, if an Indy ref was won in Oct 2020 and by whatever quirk of the voting in 2021 the Indy majority slipped we would have a constitutional dogs breakfast. We would likely end up with some compromise that is little more than devolution+ at best or nothing at worst.
A pompous bullying Westminster and no vote may, on the other hand, result in a poor 2021 for Unionist parties.
Is denying a vote in 2021 following a big win feasible? Jack and Johnson sound more like Stalin than advocates of democracy so I am not sure on that but certainly at that juncture some sort of UDI move may have to be considered especially if we are told election results in Scotland do not matter.
This is going to be bumpy ride but if Johnson and his sidekick Grima Wormjack think we are going back in the box then they are in for a nasty surprise.
@ IZZIE.
If Nicola has a Constitutional duty to act in defence of the Sovereign people of Scotland, to adhere to, and uphold their expressed will, so also does the crown.
Cameron B Brodie and Shrodingers Cat.
I personally think that we/Scottish Government need to get this in international Courts and fast.
This is not the weak T.May government that’s falling apart.
This is a Westminster Government that can do what ever it likes….. Up to and including legislating to make it illegal to vote on constitutional matters in a Holyrood Election.
Then we couldn’t vote for Indy in the 2021 elections….
Well we could,but we would then really be in the same position as Catalonia.
They could do the same thing in 4 year’s for a Westminster General Election and that law would stand up to and until a sympathetic Westminster Government was elected and persuaded to change it. No UK Court of any description could do a thing about it they apply the Law as Westminster have written it.
Every Westminster Scottish MP being SNP and having stood on an Indy manifesto would be of so little concern to Westminster they probably wouldn’t even bother to jail them!
Welcome to Parliamentary Sovereignty….
David Hynds says:
I’m hoping all those trips to EU leaders have something in the hat, lots of maybees, I’m thinking.
————-
I hope you are right too. but i wont hold my breath. the eu’s prefered route for scottish indy is via an agreed process between holyrood and WM.
even spain conceded this point, if indy is agreed between WM and HR, they really have nothing to say on the issue. it would be a faite accompli and would immediately open dialogue with scotland.
history littered with examples of countries backing the losing or wrong sides in other countries
during the arab spring, the UN/EU/UK/US backed gaddafi’s opponnents. that went well. they backed Assads opponents, the FSA, trained and armed 5000 of them. 4995 of which deserted and joined ISIS. that went well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vzrG3mNnk
scotland is split 50/50, eu leaders will be unsure who to back, they will alienate half the population either way.
I think they will remain neutral even once the uk leaves.
Thursday 6th May, 2021.
Keep that date in mind.
The SG has until then to exhaust any legal route via the courts to force the UK Govt. to legislate for an Order in Council under Section 30(2) of the Scotland Act 1998. Even if, and it’s a big IF, the UKSC found in favour of the SG and forced the UK Govt. to bring forward a Bill, the House of Commons could still vote to stop its progress at the First Reading and neither the UKSC nor SG could do anything about it.
2021 Election is our best/only option.
schrodingers cat says:
15 January, 2020 at 12:21 pm
—————–
the estabishments control via the msm and the bbc is on the wane and will only get weaker…
Oh no it isn’t. There is absolutely zero chance of breaking the BBC monopoly, and zero chance of Broadcasting being devolved to facilitate a genuine Scottish Broadcasting network.
You need only look at Rev Stu’s Twitter account to see how fragile social media can be, and susceptible to mismanagement like Facebook selling data or Establishment Spooks getting onto the Board of Internet Companies like Twitter.
The Internet is like a war, where every new measure spawns every new countermeasure, and the free distribution of information has been on the up for a long time, but the darker forces of control aren’t sitting back, they are regrouping. There is the systemic re-writing of Wikipedia articles, and of course, Julian Assange being deconstructed by his vindictive enemies for daring to publish embarrassing truths.
Liz g
It just seems daft trying to gain constitutional liberation by use the very law and practice that has denied you liberty.
Take the matter out of Westminster’s grubby mitts, and seek impartial jurisprudence a.s.a.p. (i.e. appeal to international law).
@schrödingers cat.
You appear to have insights into the FM’s ‘strategy’ denied to many.
Is that based on faith or fact?
It would indeed be a joy if we sceptics were proved wrong but I sense on the evidence of past performance, not.
The British state has the upper hand in this matter. We either defer and kiss that hand or strike it off. I consider that the latter action, however effective, would be viewed as a mark of extremism.
Being determined not to be perceived as ‘extremist’ is in the SNP’s DNA.
It is by nature a middle brow, conservative party. Fine, if you like that sort of thing, for government but lacking lustre for the task of liberation.
I stick with my view that a maxi-devolutionist tranche of extra powers to Holyrood would satisfy those of a moderate temperament. It plainly worked in the Québec situation. Why not in Scotland?
A ‘vow’ that was kept, that would be a rug pulling novelty.
There is another option: take the U.K. governments advice and get on with the day job but in a way which will stagger them.
Scottish government has existing powers to abolish all Scottish and council taxes and reduce income tax on earned income to zero , and replace same with Annual Ground Rent. That can raise far more public funds even to include a Universal Citizens Income for everyone of say £200 per week.
Most tax payers in Scotland would be significantly better off and the older folk would nave their UCI of £200. Plus their state pension which is the responsibility of Westminster. Can imagine the outrage across England at that?
Too much detail to put on this post but the figures work.
A constitutional crisis will follow .
Scotland will be in control of all its public funding . He who has control of the funds has control of the debate.
@Graeme McCormick
Scottish budget next month but unfortunately I don’t think Derek Mackay will be so gallus. Like your thinking though and it cheered me up. 🙂
O/T
Just catching up today been busy lifting three carpets in three rooms and under felt with associated furniture shifting.
Carpet fitters tomorrow 🙁 Jings! Too old for this now.
Interesting the way the BTL thread here mirrors Stu’s OP: a depressing start followed by more constructive discussion of plausible solutions. Interesting too the way consensus is forming here and elsewhere that the courts + Holyrood 2021 is the way to go.
Just because those initial options won’t lead to an indyref in 2020 doesn’t mean they should be dismissed. If Holyrood 2021 is indeed the target, there would be nothing wrong at all with a convention or a ‘summer offensive’. And there’s no reason canvassers couldn’t also spread the word about e.g. the Digital Covenant. https://digitalcovenant.co.uk/
Again, let’s stopping thinking about Option 1 OR 2 OR 3 etc, but instead about putting lots of them into action simultaneously. This is a (political) war to be fought on as many fronts as possible.
On which note, more discussion is needed on how to provoke more support for Scottish independence among English Tories, and also on how to demoralise staunch Unionists in Scotland (not instead of the options discussed BTL but alongside them). The happy-clappy style of summer 2014 is fine for converting soft Nos, but for the staunch brigade a less nicey-nice approach is needed, something closer to the tactics of demoralisation used in the States and that were also used against us in indyref1. We need to hammer home to the hardliners that they’re yesterday’s men and women, a past-it, servile national embarrassment.
Apart from the Orange Order, Scottish Unionism doesn’t even have the mad energy of the alt-right in the States or the Brexit racists down south. All it has is a thrawn, sour-faced inertia that works okay when it’s in a clear majority but that may prove surprisingly brittle when it knows the battle’s lost.
Which is why, as schrodingers cat says above, repeated polls showing these hardliners that they’re in a permanently shrinking minority will be vital. That GE was demoralising for them too, both the SNP landslide and the Tory one. January 31st and its toecurling bongs will be too. And the coming Brexit recession. And their pathetic wee freakshow turnout in Argyll Street on Saturday. Etc.
The SNP leadership may still be determined on a referendum, with or without an S30, as they may feel that a Holyrood plebiscite wouldn’t be enough for the EU. In which case the best approach might be a Holyrood election followed weeks later by the indyref. A pro-indy victory/landslide in that election would be seriously demoralise Better Together II. That Holyrood election, far less likely to be boycotted by Unionists, could also have a referendum on whether Holyrood has the right to call an indyref.
A crushing victory in that first referendum, plus a pro-indy Holyrood majority/landslide, badly demoralised opposition, MSM torn on whether to boycott or not, followed weeks later by an indyref victory given validity by all the Unionists who participated in that first referendum – that would be hard for the international community to ignore. If in the meantime we can provoke English Tories into supporting our independence then Johnson and Cummings might just crack.
Much of the Brexit fog has cleared now, and our colonial masters have told us democracy is dead here. We know the lay of the land much better, and what we’re up against. Let’s start having fun again, even/especially if it involves humiliating our opposition.
ZZIE says:
15 January, 2020 at 3:01 pm
As a foot soldier since Winnie won the Hamilton by-election I have to ask why 2020?.
Hi, ZZIE
I’m nearly 65. I’ve been voting SNP for 45+ years. I’ve never seen such an advance in the cause of independence until the last 7-8 years. Let’s not forget 50+ years of struggle against the prevailing wind in our haste to get over the last few metres to the winning line.
All I can say to the young ones is – ca’ canny, they’re are playing their last losing chips. Don’t let them blindside and distract us. They are on the losing side – they know it’s just a matter of time.
It’s coming! It’s coming!
Breeks says:
schrodingers cat says:
the estabishments control via the msm and the bbc is on the wane and will only get weaker…
Oh no it isn’t. There is absolutely zero chance of breaking the BBC monopoly, and zero chance of Broadcasting being devolved to facilitate a genuine Scottish Broadcasting network.
i never for one moment suggested broadcasting will be devolved. it wont be.
but newspapers and tv audiences have been falling of a cliff. fact. and will continue to do so. how can you suggest that their influences are increasing?
Ottomanboi says:
15 January, 2020 at 3:48 pm
@schrödingers cat.
The British state has the upper hand in this matter. We either defer and kiss that hand or strike it off. I consider that the latter action, however effective, would be viewed as a mark of extremism.
A ‘vow’ that was kept, that would be a rug pulling novelty.
—————
how exactly will you strike of this imaginary hand?
what exactly are you going to do to bojo? bleed all over him?
nicola and the sg will carry on doing what they are doing. good luck to them
the question before us is, what will we do?
leave the vacuous speeches to the politician, we need concrete suggestions not empty rhetoric
what Unionist Media BDSM Club said
Liz g says:
I personally think that we/Scottish Government need to get this in international Courts and fast
—————–
i cant see how this would damage the yes campaign. i hope they go for it
but it still leaves the question liz, what are we going to do?
Ottomanboi says:
You appear to have insights into the FM’s ‘strategy’ denied to many.
————
no, i dont. just more insight than you
not difficult to be honest
Anyone ever considered becoming an evangelist? What harm would it do? 🙂
Liberation Theology in Social Work
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304194749_Liberation_Theology_in_Social_Work
Grima Wormjack
lol
im sttealing that 🙂
Your options 1-6 seem reasonable enough, Stu, but your “clincher” =cough= for option 7 is a “deus ex machina” if ever I saw one: “oh, if the UK Gov could see it was going to lose the game, it would just confiscate all the pieces!” That’s total bonkers. Pathetically shallow and unconvincing. A childish getout like hiding your face and claiming invisibility. If the UKGov were to try suspending Holyrood in a kind of overt coup, it would be game over. Even the most self-deluding PSB would be incensed.
The UKGov can only get so far by bluffing, but once it’s called, it loses, and it loses big. The result would be like Dorothy pulling the curtain open to reveal a little man behind a mike. Pulling a big lever in total desperation like that would be political suicide in Scotland, and would destroy the UK in the process.
Scotland’s liberation will be won in the minds of the voters, not the courts, though we need to use all appropriate legal steps.
Foundations for Liberation: Social Justice, Liberation Psychology,
and Counseling
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9589/4fc6eeb0b0297d0b3bc6869e7bc3d7480fa1.pdf
Maybe for a sensible way forward you would be better going elsewhere, and no need to look further than WGD:
https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2020/01/15/the-stick-to-beat-the-bully
Always uplifting and making sense. Though I could still see that whole agenda being brought forward.
Have been reading a book called None Dare Oppose by John MacLeod (Birlinn, 2010).
I know next to nothing about Highland/Islands history so it’s a proper eye-opener. Some commenters here will be able to supply more info on the subject i.e. how the Isle of Lewis was literally ‘bought’ by a well-heeled drug dealer who installed a brutal man to use a firm hand on the people. This was mid 19thC, and covers the famine and the misunderstood nature of ‘The Clearances’ as experienced there.
I’m just about halfway through and it’s utterly mind-boggling, how people were treated then. It keeps resonating as a great metaphor for what’s happening nationally right now.
Also watched a film called Black ’47 (after someone here mentioned it a few days ago) and that supplies a lot of contemporaneous imagery from Ireland. The combination of the two is really quite disturbing. (Consider this – Prince Philip was born only 74 years after the ‘Black ’47’ i.e. the peak of the Great Hunger in Ireland)
The point I’m making is that we could perhaps use this fallow period (well, the next fortnight at any rate) to refresh/expand our general knowledge of specific historical examples to bolster the case for indy, if only in our own heads – ‘nurse the wrath to keep it warm’, if you like!
We should never ever forget how the British State treated us in centuries past because one thing’s for sure – we are so close to slipping from the Tories’ grasp now? they won’t ever allow us such a chance again, no matter what it takes. They’ve got ‘form’, and there’s plenty of it.
😉
https://booksfromscotland.com/book/none-dare-oppose-the-laird-the-beast-and-the-people-of-lewis/
I’m reminded of the Duchy of Grand Fenwick
Black 47 was very moving
And another that might help some see British nationalism through new eyes, or help others see the light. 🙂
Introduction to Community Psychology
Chapter 9
Oppression and Power
https://press.rebus.community/introductiontocommunitypsychology/chapter/oppression-and-power/
I might have already posted that, so here’s a bonus.
Social Justice, Diversity and Leadership
https://ejcop.psychopen.eu/article/view/145/html
Might seem a small point, but a May 2020 Holyrood election would not, or rather should not be an early election, the 2016 parliament should end then, and Holyrood should return to four-year terms asap. It’s all part of the mindset, allowing London to dictate Edinburgh’s timetable as we did with the 2015 election that wasn’t. We shouldn’t do it again, Holyrood needs to assert itself. Stop behaving like a devolved parliament, behave like a national parliament.
It’s great to read all the interesting comments from what appear to be very intelligent people who know the answer/answers to our predicament. Unfortunately, knowing what you want, and making every logical/honest and articulate argument for it is not going to win it. We have always been held in something approaching contempt by the Westminster, like every other race that they “other”. Remember England needs to “other” everyone to satisfy their sense of exceptionalism. Note how HYFUD opened his comment on Boris’ decision – HA HA wasn’t it? We know he is a clown but we have been ruled by Westminster clowns many time and accepted it timidly – is there a race memory of what they have done to us in the past when we objected? We were fools to get into this union. We have been made fools of ever since. Feel for the poor Scots who died for this disgrace and their families who suffered because of their deaths – what thanks did they get from the mother ship?
I’m 76 years old this year and and fear that I will not see our Independence – if we are still in this foul union this summer theres no chance. No matter what happens in the Holyrood election in 2021 it will be ignored. Mark my words!
I know none of these are exactly practical suggestions, but they are crammed with practical insight into how to resist cultural oppression and achieve social justice. That’s all Scotland is looking for, ffs.
A Living Theory of a Practice of Social Justice:
Realising the Right of Traveller Children to
Educational Equality
http://www.jeanmcniff.com/userfiles/file/Theses/Bernie%20Sullivan/Bernie%20Sullivan%20PhD.pdf
I see WM has moved to shore up the Supreme Court by appointing Lord Reid to head it up.
Ah yes, the age old tactic of using one of our (perceived) own to screw us over therefore absolving themselves of blame for the pre-planned outcome.
Perfidious indeed…
An alternative referendum question to be asked alongside the Holyrood election: if an independence referendum is held, should its result be respected?
A big win on that question, with plenty of Unionists participating, followed by another big win soon afterwards in the indyref — that would be pretty hard to ignore.
@Cameron B Brodie.
Absolutely pointless going to court seeking a Section 30, and I can’t believe that is the intention of the SG, I also sincerely hope that the case being brought forward by the crowd funder doesn’t either. Neither should we go anywhere near the Treaty of Union.
Looking at Johnson’s letter, with the exception of the ‘ can’t agree to a referendum ‘, its full of lies. To my mind its being used as bait. Let’s hope nobody bites.
Sovereignty is the issue, and its the only issue.
Wee Ginger Dug wants to turn the 2021 election into a plebiscite election on indy. Great. Though for the life of me thats what I thought we did in the last two elections where the SNP offered indy as an escape from being put out of the EU.
Groundhog Day right enough.
“is there a race memory….”
Sort of. We’re in a battle between two cultural memories and psychologies. Brexit will become a nightmare that will haunt Scotland for generations, if we simply roll over.
Collective Trauma and the Social Construction of Meaning
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095989/
I’m waiting for Stu’s list party to form because the thought of voting SNP next election, with its transgender pish, horrifies me. They think they’re playing with a captive electorate and that is not democracy.
Golfnut
I’ve never suggested we look for a S30, I don’t trust British justice. Perhaps you’ve mistaken me for who feel compelled by British constitutional law.
Sorry for the loss of syntax earlier, but I was bursting for the toilet. 🙂
Still, there are too, too many, not ghining like Scotland is a country, merely joined by a treaty, that can be neded by either party. Their is no UDI, their is ending that treaty.
It is not for England to prevent Scotland ending that treaty. Yet, I see the SNP moaning that it is just not right. What the SNP should be doing is not even arguing the point. They just need to do it.
Westminster, and in particular Lying racist Johnson, no longer adheres to democratic concepts, so it is time to stop all the polite discussions and chats or debates over who can or can’t do what.
If England wanted to end the union treaty, it just would. It wouldn’t even think of asking anybody else. So why do Scots and the SNP leadership sweat over this so much. End the union treaty, followed up by an immediate confirmatory referendum.
You do not say ‘you are going to assert Scotland’s sovereignty, you just do it.
Following your links and comments Cameron. I’m sure race memory plays a large part in the acceptance behaviour of many races not just ours. In my long comment at 0509 I was not implying that all English people felt “exceptional”, in many ways they are just like the rest of us. I thought it was self-explanatory what I meant and thought to clear it up before I get called names. See what I mean about race memory?
If the SNP want the next scottish elections for an indy mandate, they can f*** right off. I’ll vote Tory, rather than vote for them. They have a mandate. They have several. Another will make no freaking difference.
Unless a radical approach to the 2021 Holyrood election is taken – ie, mandate for independence on over 50% of vote and 50% of seats – then I’m afraid the ‘next thing’ that will happen is the final stage in the process of dealing with loss – acceptance.
And with that we will see the current support for Indy slowly but surely fall away…..by the time we get to 2025 I’d put it at around 35% and it will be all over.
The Brits know this, they’re not stupid….evil, yes, but not stupid and they will do everything to get their way.
Bob Mack says:
Wee Ginger Dug wants to turn the 2021 election into a plebiscite election on indy. Great. Though for the life of me thats what I thought we did in the last two elections where the SNP offered indy as an escape from being put out of the EU.
Groundhog Day right enough.
————
whether that happens or is even proposed by the snp will surely depend on the polls swing. eg, if we get to feb next year and support for indy and the snp is still at 45%, whats the point?
if we get to june this year and support is at 60% i wouldnt be surprised if nicola didnt dissolve holyrood and call a he in sept under exactly those conditions
this is why i was so interested to see a full scale indy poll, the first after bojos win. james kelly recognised this and yesterday crowd funded for just such a poll (the 1st time he has done such a thing, i believe)
Bill McLean
Sorry I meant to address you directly with my previous post. Cultural struggle is a very tricky course, full of hidden traps.
Collective memory is a significant driver of political behaviour. That’s why nostalgia was heavily pushed in support of selling Brexit. Nostalgia is cat-nip for some folk, who tend to possess personalities that can be characterised as right-wing, authoritarian, racist, sexist and homophobic. Tory for short. 😉
A key component to resisting cultural oppression, and Tories, is simply to ridicule the arrogant twats.
Approaching History as Cultural Memory Through Humour, Satire, Comics and Graphic Novels
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/contemporary-european-history/article/approaching-history-as-cultural-memory-through-humour-satire-comics-and-graphic-novels/1C904A5B4B8B6891BE6A45236F97720F
Seen one or two comments referring to the threat of that lot shutting down Holyrood. This might help ease your worries.
Was looking through some pdf documents earlier today about ‘The Smith Commission’ outcomes and from what i read and what i can gather 2 quite important points were noted.
(1): Everyone involved agreed that ‘The Scottish Parliament is permanent and
(2): For the closing down of Holyrood there has to be a “super majority of two-thirds” in favour at Holyrood.
I know they have a habit of just ignoring what suits them at any given time but i’d imagine this would be protected by law (don’t laugh). Also, if they tried that without the super majority, apart from it riling quite a percentage of Scotland, the international community wouldn’t look on their actions favourably.
Just some thoughts to help give some peace of mind.
BTW, during this reading session i’m sure i came across a paragraph that, in quite a sneaky way, implied that “parliament” (WM) is sovereign over all. I’m trying to see if i can find it again. What i do remember is that the word(s) “notionally” &/or “perceived” was/were used. If i find it again i’ll put it up here for those who like to pick at the bones of such carcasses.
The Cat on HR 2021, says
‘whether that happens or is even proposed by the snp will surely depend on the polls swing. eg, if we get to feb next year and support for indy and the snp is still at 45%, whats the point?’
The ‘Point’ is that it will be our last chance at it, so we’ll have to roll the dice with 45% and take our chances. Indyref1 started out low 20’s if some polls are to be believed.
Who Dares Wins
McBrian says: at 12:53 pm
“I keep wondering why we can organise and have a GE in 6 weeks but we can’t have a referendum within 6 months!”
Aye, indeed McBrian.
And there’s also the major point to be made that the Conservative Party had no concerns creating those elections whilst ignoring the previously agreed 5 year Fixed Term Parliament Act multiple times as they attempted to extricate themselves from the changing circumstances of the shitshow their party created.
So a political party and their supporters, which make up a minority of the UK population, can engineer a “democratic” process that best suits them holding power, but an entire country such as Scotland isn’t afforded the basic choice of choosing a path out of the very same Conservative created shitshow.
“Once in a generation” spouting zealots can stick this point richt up their fuckin arses!
Stoker…
‘Suspension’ is not the same as “shutting down” or “closing down”.
Given the racist overtones of Brexit, this might provide valuable insight.
Implicit stereotypes and the predictive brain: cognition and culture in “biased” person perception
https://www.nature.com/articles/palcomms201786
Bob Mack @ 5.19PM
Excellent point. We are now in extreme territory where the UK State has made it clear that ANY democratic mandate will not be recognised.
So, a plebiscite election mandate will NOT be recognised by the UK. In practical terms, the Unionist parties will not stand on a Union mandate only. They will use the SNP’s arguments about how a plebiscite election does not count, cos people vote for parties for a number of reasons, so it’s not an indy v union only.
As I predicted, the UK Govt have the measure of Sturgeon from 2017. They called her bluff in 2017 and have done it again.
The SNP colonial administrators do as they always do: bend the knee to their British Imperial Masters.
————————————–
Where do we go from here under Sturgeon’s strategy? Out of the EU and into a unitary UK state, in a worse situation than Catalonia.
Bill McLean@5.09
Bill I feel your pain, I think we all do at this moment in time, at least we can all hold our heads high if it does go “Tits Up”. We have put our faith in the Scottish Independence Party,(SNP) if they fail us, we are not to blame, they are, it wont bring comfort to us but we can say, “at least we tried” and when the dust settles, (I hope we weren’t taken for mugs).
At the moment I feel for all my old mates who are no longer with us, who got me into believing/voting for Indy and the SNP decades ago, they still “believed” on their death beds, like you, this year is the decider.
Don’t let the bas*ards get you down.
Behave as an independent country seems a fine strategy to me.
So by what measures do we assert our rights as a nation, as co-signature to a Treaty?
When “Big’ Ben chimes to record the UK’s departure from the EU, the bells of St Giles in Edinburgh should ring to announce Scotland’s intention to remain in the EU.
Hopefully Ian Blackford will announce this in the UK parliament on 31st January.
There is zero chance of UDI succeeding, as I’ve been saying to people who propose it, for years. Less than half the population who voted in the referendum voted for independence, and no poll has showed more than 50% support for independence. Therefore, a unilateral declaration of independence would have no ability to claim majority public support.
A referendum without a S30 or the support of the Councils in Scotland would be doomed to fail, and even if it took place it would have no legitimacy in the eyes of the international community – and as any student of international studies will tell you, your independence is only as good as the recognition of it from others.
There is no way to independence which does not involve getting the agreement of the Westminster government, particularly if you want to have any legitimacy in the eyes of other organisations, such as the EU, which you would want to deal with as an independent nation.
As for trying to prod the international community by showing a lack of democratic ability to self-determination, well, that hasn’t exactly worked out for Quebec. Or Catalonia. And while those two cases are different from Scotland, they’re not different enough to not be taken as samples of how the international community works.
I’ll be honest – I don’t see that there is a route to independence for now. Westminster crapped themselves at the result of the last referendum, and they’re not about to allow the chance of Scotland actually managing to leave.
I agree court is the next step, and it’s always been the next step. But, I don’t really hold out much hope for it making any difference to the situation.
I’ve been out. Has anything changed since I’ve been gone?
@Mist
HTH
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=Has+anything+changed+since+I%27ve+been+gone%3F
ahundredthidiot says:
Indyref1 started out low 20’s if some polls are to be believed.
————-
they arnt to be believed, the initial polls didnt ask the actual referendum question and also included a 3rd option of devo max. the unionists simply added the no,devo max and DK’s support together and announced that indy support was only at 29%.
only once the actual question was finalised and the devo max question removed can any real comparison be made. at that point support varied from between 42-48% depending on which pollster across a period of 18 months
quite accurate considering the actual result
Golfnut
Sorry for not twigging earlier that it might be helpful if I’ll tried to clear up any confusion. I want an appeal made to international law, to establish whether Westminster is acting withing the constitutional perimeters of the moral law justification of the constitution. If not, the constitution no longer holds legal force. At least that is my understanding of how it should play out. Even if it didn’t, imagine the publicity the case would generate.
Listening to Johnson at PMQs on the unionist news programme STV news, and his utter disregards for democracy in Scotland, he reminds of English King Edward Ist.
I think if we really want independence we’ll need to take it, for it will never be given by London.
“I think if we really want independence we’ll need to take it”
How do you suggest that happens then, @Republicofscotland, given that more than half of Scottish voters voted against independence, practically no Scottish councils would support it, and the international community would not recognize it?
‘International community’
Well, there is no such thing, though I discern the gist.
What is the acceptable quorum?
For example, in Catalonia’s case, two countries were prepared to accept their declaration.
Is it that within the EU 28 (27?) No single country could declare – it would be an en-bloc agreement? (though it wasn’t en-bloc with Catalonia, each country issued its own statement) there are an additional 3 (+ the Swiss) as seperate EEA countries – any of them? And of course the myriad other global countries ad-nauseum, again, what’s an acceptable quorum, from.whim and why?
There is arguably no such thing as an ‘unrecognised state’ (the current so-called unrecognised states’ are mostly recognised by someone and all are in trade and diplomatic relations) Hell, as I’ve mentioned before, the EU has specific policies and legislation to deal with them – far more than Scotland has with the EU.
The closest any country is to an unrecognised state, is actually Scotland; simply because the rights she currently claims for herself are far less than any other ‘disputed state’ – never mind what the UK deigns to recognise (which is nothing – not a jot – the Scotland Act is quite clear on that) No part of the Act(s) constitute any binding rights of state, all rights are reserved to the Crown and the Sovereign UK Parliament. All of them, we merely have a loan of them.
So, no point greeting Scotland would be ‘unrecognised’ – it already is and what’s worse, barely recognises itself.
Anyway, just bloody stand on an Indy ticket, whenever – this year, next year, any bloody year. Winning an election on that (no matter the percentages and ratios) was good enough for the greater number of existing global states in the *ahem ‘International community’. The quorum of who would, or would not recognise Scotland, is a moot point.
House of Commons 20 minutes ago Deirdre Brock in a speech tells the English parliament that 40.000 children a year die in England because of poor air quality and they’ve been promising to do something about it for 30 years and have done nothing
Now I think that beats a pigeon flying in a window but you never hear that on the news
Rea Wolfson, remember her, the Labour party activist who blamed the SNP for not paying the Glasgow women workers when it was her party who went to court to prevent them being paid, well she’s back but this time she’s a climate change protesting activist blaming the Scottish government for “Glasgow’s crumbling infrastructure and potholes” and she’ll be there to protest against the terrible SNP when the climate change conference comes to town
Also, @Republicofscotland, James Kelly has just completed a fundraiser which was set up to carry out a poll to determine the support for independence post General Election, so you’ll get your wish with that.
I really hope it shows more than 50% but I’ll be astounded if it does.
Yes, I agree. ALL democratic means MUST be exhausted AND support has to be overwhelming. At THIS POINT UDI could be possible, but not at any time before.
As I KEEP SAYING, plan B can’t be used before plan A. This won’t happen soon, this WILL take time. But the direction of travel i obvious for anyone to see. Remember the level of support when the Referndum date was set back in 2012? It was minimal, 30%? Maybe not even that, I just don’t remember. Look where we are now, 50%. STILL we need more. To get where we need to be we have to have 70% minimum (for UDI)
I agree, unless there is a sea change in politics, there will never be another IndyRef, no matter how many support it. Things CAN change though, SLAB could become a genuinely Scottish Party with their own, pro Indy, point of view. We COULD get an Indy-friendly Labour leader who MIGHT grant Indy2 in as little as 7 years BUT it seems more likely that Labour will lurch to the right, become Tory-Lite under Kier Starmer and they will become their evil twin once more..
Sturgeon should declare UDI and if anybody complains, she should just repeat her mantra that she’s acting in the best interests of the Scottish people.
Now, what’s so difficult about that?
Right everyone, mind and show up, and don’t forget your candles.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18162089.candlelit-vigil-protest-scotland-office-indyref2-refusal/
The psychology of BBCs Reporting Scotland is pure evil.
They just led with a heart breaking story on MND – quickly followed by NS whinging about indyref2.
This is NO accident – it is the face of evil itself.
Cunts the lot of them.
Cod
Britain is no longer a social democracy. Unfortunately, Scotland’s electorate is not sufficiently engaged or informed to defend their legal identities for Westminster’s abuse of constitutional power. That is the job of the Scottish government.
It is clear you acknowledge Westminster as having legal authority over you, so you’re unlikely to attain liberty if that is the way you view the world. Politics is not above the law, and should not try to determine which law is adhered to and which is not. Westminster has broken the moral law justification of the constitution. The game is over if only those in a position to strike, would do so promptly.
Gary 45% – the “bas*ards” aren’t getting me down any more than they always have done but thank you and Cameron for your responses. Although I no longer live in Scotland i’ll always want our freedom and hopefully maybe be fit enough for a visit up to my beautiful free homeland. Just been listening to Dougie Maclean singing “Garden Valley” – heartbreaking!!
Good luck to all tru Scots whether born in Scotland or not!!!!
Having waded through even more agonising here (some of it confected by the usual suspects) I have just one positive thought for you all: Bozo is bluffing.
It’s what a privileged private-school education teaches you, even though it’s not on the formal curriculum. Convince your opponent that your own case is iron-clad (even when it’s just tawdry wishfulness) and OTOH that their cause is hopeless, and hope they will meekly accept your spun fiction and concede.
Any government only survives by the (often implicit) acquiescence of the governed, but as soon as that acceptance breaks down, it is toast. Just look at what happened to the late unlamented government of the GDR, as one example. Our main difficulty heretofore has not been in any perceived or actual failing in the SG/SNP, even though we may rightly quibble about some of its members’ judgements and actions, it is in achieving the magic and necessary engagement of the majority of the (voting) people of Scotland. Our communal fault, thus, though with well-understood reasons behind it such as the capture of the “popular” media by British Nationalist vested interests.
But these are changed times indeed. Despite all the difficulties, popular support for independence remains strong and many more are now willing to consider it as a legitimate option. Foolish actions by a tone-deaf bunch of English exceptionalists in London, as in the present outright refusal, are no longer able to deflect or deter the unwary, because we are no longer unwary, and are no longer willing to meekly concede to the Bluffer’s Gambit.
The more BoZo chances his luck, the quicker we will expose his bluff. And I don’t for a moment believe that the SG/SNP are going to sit idly by now and duck that necessary challenge, and pop his over-inflated balloon.
“How do you suggest that happens then, @Republicofscotland, given that more than half of Scottish voters voted against independence, practically no Scottish councils would support it, and the international community would not recognize it?”
Well, 2014 is in the past and before the recent GE, polls regularly showed indy support in the low 50s. Why if anything should it go down, has the union suddenly become more credible? If anything under Johnson it’s worse.
Secondly we’ll have a better idea on where we stand after James Kellys poll, I’m quietly confident that yes is still in the 50s or even up to 60.
If we don’t get a indyref this year, which is looking unlikely then why not use next years election as a referendum, 50%+, SNP plus, Greens plus say a indy list party hoovering up the majority of list votes would surely be enough to take us over the 50%. We then declare independence.
As for international recognition, I’m sure the EU nations would recognise us, it would be in their interests to do so.
Sturgeon has time to speak with heads of state between now and 2021 election, infact most of them will be here in November for the Climate Change conference. Though I’m under the impression Johnson has barred Sturgeon from attending.
Like I said we must take our independence.
Jack McConnell had some words of advice for the FM over the climate change conference expences, he said ” I would say to Nicola get the UK to put it in writing, don’t go ahead on their word or a handshake”
Oh aye, in other news Nicola Sturgeon just said there will be an Independence referendum this year and Johnson can keep saying NO if he wants, he’s doing my job for me
I’m reading this, but I want to read it again, sleep on it, and let it sink in, because I think some folks are getting the wrong end of the stick. It might be me, but at this point in time I don’t think it is.
http://betternation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/NeilMaccormick.pdf
Let me quote a piece…
“Absolutely critical, then, is the question whether a referendum could constitutionally be called by a Scottish Executive under the present devolved powers.
Ah, says the objector, the Constitution is a reserved matter under the Scotland Act, so how could a Parliament which has no power over the Constitution pose a question about the Constitution and put it to the people? There is an answer to that, as compelling as it is simple. The Scottish Executive has unlimited powers to negotiate with the Westminster government about any issues which could be the subject of discussion between them, therefore it could seek an advisory referendum.”
I have seen this quoted as informed evidence that Westminster essentially does not hold all the critical cards, and Scotland has to beg…. But let me change the emphasis to make my point…
….Absolutely critical, then, is the question whether a referendum could constitutionally be called by a Scottish Executive under the present devolved powers.
Ah, says the objector, the Constitution is a reserved matter under the Scotland Act, so how could a Parliament which has no power over the Constitution pose a question about the Constitution and put it to the people? There is an answer to that, as compelling as it is simple. The Scottish Executive has unlimited powers to negotiate with the Westminster government about any issues which could be the subject of discussion between them, therefore it could seek an advisory referendum.
The distinction I make is that Devolution Legislation may be, and probably is, quite watertight in restricting the options and choices available to a devolved Government. But that is a dispute between the Constitution of the Westminster Government and the Constitution of a Devolved Assembly. It is NOT the dispute between the Constitution of the Westminster Government and the Constitution of a Sovereign Scottish Nation.
If we eat in the Westminster restaurant, we can only pick and choose what is on the Westminster menu and observe the rules of their establishment. But a genuine constitutional dispute would not be conducted according to Westminster’s rules. Once Scotland’s MP’s and MSP’s step outsideWestminster and Holyrood, there is no longer ANY covenant between them and Westminster whatsoever; Scotland’s properly elected government exists solely to administer the will of Scotland’s sovereign people. Stuff your “Scotland Act” and “presently devolved powers”, up your Boris Johnson.
MacCormick says something else too… Page 1.
“…More important to me is the conviction that no other path than a constitutional one ought to be taken. A rigorous constitutionalism has always characterised the SNP’s approach to its central policy objective of re-establishing Scotland’s position as an independent state, in con- temporary terms as a member state of the European Union.”
“Rigorous Constitutionalism” would require the sovereign will of the Scottish People to remain in Europe to stand and NOT be overruled by Westminster’s unlawful and unconstitutional colonial misadventure.
I would argue we are in the mess we are in expressly because the SNP is NOT observing “Rigorous Constitutionalism”, has turned its back on Constitutional Sovereignty, and instead has allowed itself to be artificially contained in the fishbowl of devolution “kindly” provided by Westminster. This isn’t Sovereignty. This is a stage show with contrived scenery and backdrops.
Step outside the Scotland Act and the whole smelly string vest of devolved powers. Independence means we ski off-piste and make our own decisions. We are Sovereign.
Cod…
IndyRef2 isn’t needed…
2021 – The SNP can put forward a single-issue manifesto pledge whereby if returned to Government with over 50% of votes cast AND over 50% of seats they’ll introduce a Bill at Holyrood to repeal the 1707 Act & Articles of Union with England and return to Scotland the status of an independent, sovereign State.
Should the electorate provide the 50/50+ result needed then job done by any and every measure of democratic legitimacy.
Westminster can stick their S30, or lack thereof, where it causes them maximum discomfort!
“I really hope it shows more than 50% but I’ll be astounded if it does.”
Why would that be, is it really such a great leap from endorsing the SNP for government with several mandates, which has been achieved regularly, to voting for independence. I think you’re underestimating the Scottish public, look what happened when Sturgeon appealed for your vote to show Johnson that we need to be taken seriously, they rose to the challenge.
As I said this is not 2014, come the 31st of January I’m hoping we have a more vocal ally in the EU.
“IndyRef2 isn’t needed…
2021 – The SNP can put forward a single-issue manifesto pledge whereby if returned to Government with over 50% of votes cast AND over 50% of seats they’ll introduce a Bill at Holyrood to repeal the 1707 Act & Articles of Union with England ”
That’s my line of thinking as well.
Surely the SNP and the Greens and hopefully a list party hoovering up the list votes taking out Wells, Tomkins, Fraser Kelly etc would gives us at least 55% of the vote.
Johnson would then be falling over himself to offer a indyref, however we’d counter that predictable move by immediately declaring independence.
A blast from the past.
A referendum well and truly rigged….and some people want another one..
https://www.sott.net/article/286355-Special-Report-Scottish-Referendum-Rigged-The-How-and-the-Why
@Ian Brotherhood at 5:00 pm
Don’t know if you clocked my post a few days ago but if you enjoy reading you may want to check out the following, if you weren’t already aware of it.
His Bloody Project by Graeme Macrae Burnet.
If Scotland were to have a referendum this year we’d lose, a couple of years of Brexit pain and Indy support will reach 60%, well worth the wait.
How the f**k do you think we’ll be able to hold a ref after 2 years of Brexit. Folk need to wise up, this is going to get messy.
Be prepared
A nice wee outside looking in video from al Jazeera tv on the AUOB march in Glasgow last Saturday.
As others see us.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1217136796414496768
Anent the transience (or otherwise) yet to be shown to Scotland by Brussels following 23:00hrs; 31/01/2020)
I’m no politician but for me:
Simple statement to EU, back us and we’ll Article 49, don’t we can EFTA.
Our marine and energy assets alone would allow us to gain Free Market Access As an EFTA member (for example currently Norway allows EU boats to fish in its EEZ waters, in return for market access as well as the right to fish in EU waters).
Oh aye, and all our lovely, geopolitically secure energy (old school O&G and new school renewables) would still available but with a “Bet you’d supported our democracy!” mark up.
16 Sleeps to go until there actually is a “Material Change of Circumstances” (17 if you go to be early on the 31st)!!
😉
@Republicofscotland
Re your AJ link
Get it now, we want independence because we don’t want their Brexit.
SNP’s ‘nuanced’ indie message confusing the punters.
Hi Robert Louis at 5:33 pm.
You typed,
“If the SNP want the next scottish elections for an indy mandate, they can f*** right off. I’ll vote Tory, rather than vote for them. They have a mandate. They have several. Another will make no freaking difference.”
I would suggest that you’re confusing two different mandates. Yes, the SNP already has a number of mandates to carry out an independence referendum.
However, if they use the next Holyrood election to offer that if pro-indy parties gain a majority of votes and seats, then the Treaty Of Union is dissolved – and Scotland becomes, once again, an independent nation (a plebiscite election, to quote Wee Ginger Dug), that’s a whole new flask o’ hough.
Why would you want to vote Tory if that was on the table?
The reason Scotland finds itself in this position today with no obvious viable route to independence lies firmly and squarely at the feet of Sturgeon and the SNP, so make no excuses for them.
These are the people who fought tooth and nail for the past three and a half years fighting to overturn the result of a democratic UK referendum, when they should have been fighting tooth and nail to overturn the result of a democratic Scottish referendum.
And that’s precisely the reason that we find ourselves where we are today.
@Dan (7.13) –
Cheers.
Aye, that was one of the books we did at UHI. Very interesting, and even more so if you don’t know whether or not it’s based on fact. I heartily endorse your recommendation sah!
😉
If the SNP are canny, they won’t just list the next steps they’re taking next. Instead they’ll say to Johnson “If by [date] you haven’t respected the Scottish mandate in the GE and agreed to an S30, you will have given us no option but to take the following steps.”
Saddened, grown-up, reasonable-sounding, faux-reluctant, keeping the heat on the pricks denying Scottish democracy.
A thought structk me watching the aljazeera video. The first lady interviewed couched her desire for indy in non-nationalistic terms of attachment to the EU. The Gammons want to Brexit us because of many reasons that were over-driven by ethnic and cultural nationalisms.
I’m sure the SNP the aware of the fault-line opening up in the Yes movement between pro and anti EU nats. I hope they are going to be able to counter the whirlwind of nasty Euroskeptic narrative that is heading in our direction.
The choice facing Scots is now one with a potential for true liberty and justice, defined by ourselves within the EU (or EFTA). Or a state of constitutionally illiberal cultural subjugation by Westminster.
Ottomanboi
I thought that might be an ‘official’ opinion. It makes sense, IMHO. If folk are too scared to vote for indy, perhaps they won’t be so afraid to vote for the EU. Different moral responsibility and stuff, in the electorate’s minds. Most importantly, its not “nationalism”, which the European psych is still trying to come to terms with critically.
Seeing as my suggestion for flash mobs consisting of 10s or 100s of large Sumo suited Saltire carrying activists running around causing uncivil obedience has gone down like a damp squib, I’ve been considering other options.
Anybody getting fatigued with marching?
Then save your energy by getting a cuddybacky ride from William Wallace.*
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rubber-Johnnies-Scottish-Scotsman-Halloween/dp/B072Q6Y9HD
*NB: May not actually save you energy.
Hey Scots you dour bastards, look to Catalonia for 6.5 mins of inspiration on how to express yourselves, then bow your heads in shame coz we can’t even get half a dozen folk on a coach to try to sing a song…
There must be 1000s of folk from all walks of life that worked together to do their bit in organising and choregraphing this, and it’s filmed in one fuckin take!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nPvfqn2hhI
An awfy lot of folk are now getting angry because the SNP are going to do what they said they would and I’m not sure why, the election was for a choice on Scotland’s future and or to stop Brexit and they won that because we voted for it, then everybody complained about Boris Johnson’s refusal to *allow* Scotland a referendum which the FM says she’s ignoring and going to hold one anyway when she said she would
What’s to be annoyed about? or is it just the FM they don’t like and want her to fail more than they say they want Independence
Scotland’s a puzzling place at times 5.5 million people with 5.5 million different views on how they want folk to fail in their own country
Take a look at the Yoon in Scotland argument, they don’t care what Boris Johnson and his modern day Nazi party do to Scotland as long as they defeat Nicola Sturgeon because they believe without her they can win, well they used to believe that about Alex Salmond too and how’s that working out for them, they fear us so they target the leader of what they fear but deep down they know even if the current leader isn’t there, there’ll be another one who believes the same thing and they’ll target him or her too, because they fear US
Yoons are a one issue collection of sectarians pensioners and thicko’s followed by the people who’ll never admit they’re wrong, the people in those groups are never ever likely to change on pain of death, at this moment I reckon we’re about as good as it’s going to get
If the SNP bring forward a referendum are some folk seriously thinking they wouldn’t vote for it because they don’t like this or that about whatever when we’ve been screaming for another referendum since 2014
Remember what she said at the beginning of this election “I don’t just want to hold a referendum I want to win one”
so she believes she’s got the numbers and the rest of the party does too or they wouldn’t be doing it, they’d have come up with some mitigating strategy to avoid having a referendum and putting it off till they thought they could win, but at this moment they’re confident of victory over Johnson so I reckon back them up because they’re in the job, we’re all just sofa politicians who know nothing till after the event who’ll say I told you so if or when it goes wrong or the predictors of doom before it happens
Any arsehole can moan about the teams striker before or after the game, but they’re not the ones kicking the ball
Politics has become like football where everyone knows they could manage the team better as long as they don’t have that responsibility to actually do it
Constructive criticism they call it but don’t understand that there’s no such thing, it’s an oxymoron, but we have plenty of people who indulge themselves in it
Westminster keeps harping on about the 300 year hundred old union and how great its been so surely we can do the same.
We all know it was a handful of aristos that agreed to the union with England and were paid for their treachery. But the people of Scotland who had no say in this momentous decision affecting their country rioted throughout the land in protest. Would that therefor perhaps not make the act of union null and void as the citizens of Scotland never voted for a union with England.
Even if this is irrelevant in 2020 should the likes of Johnson and his ilk not be reminded of this.
I agree with so much in this post & comments, yet there remains insufficient clarity and not enough consensus as to the way forward, to provide confidence that the Independence movement knows how to get to Independence and when.
So I return to my own perception of where the cause of Independence is right now and how it might move on.
I’m reminded that we are only here through events which were unforseen, like the rise in independence sentiment around Indy2014, the sudden surge in SNP members after Indy2014, and the Cameron decision to hold an EU referendum which has brought the UK, and England in particular, worldwide disbelief and derision.
There is no evidence to indicate that such unforeseen events have ceased to be possible.
The British Prime Minister is a man whom no one in the UK would trust to babysit their children for a few hours, or to look after their business for a few weeks, or to give them advice on any serious personal matter. And yet when the same person writes a letter to Nicola Sturgeon about Section 30 which would have been better composed by a child at Primary School, the Independence Movement appears to believe that the end of life as we know it, is upon us.
And of course, I myself have reacted in somewhat unflattering ways. But such outbursts soon gave way to more sober reflection, as I’m sure many others have done, and I now find myself persuaded to put a measure of faith in the continuation of the dynamics of these past few years.
I certainly believe still that Brexit is like an avalanche which will continue to be destructive, and which has yet to run its downward course. Indeed, it hasn’t even begun. We have yet to see the force and impact of the now imminent Brexit on the British political establishment. It must be very doubtful that it will leave Mr Johnson still standing, both politically as well as personally.
In purely democratic terms, Mr Johnson is a psychopath with a dictatorial and fallacious tendency. I can only imagine the onset of Brexit will inflate these elements in the Prime Minister to the extent that he will become insufferable and unacceptable. Including to a healthy number of Scotland’s No voters.
It does seem likely to my mind that in a short time, the picture will change again as the Brexit ‘avalanche’ makes further damaging progress.
England is already deeply divided and unhappy. Scotland’s Auld Enemy is a weakening force. No bad thing when, as so many before us have done, we seek to recover Scotland’s sovereign independence from the nightmare of Colonialism within the English Empire. Scotland is not a Colony, but we are certainly treated as one, with all the historic English tendencies to brutal suppression and comprehensive, boundless greed and exploitation.
Not long now.
A plebiscite election win would still require Scotland to declare independence / the union dissolved / UDI / (whatever your favourite term),
As the UK state will threaten to NEVER cooperate / recognise it.
In my opinion, I can’t see the SNP / Scot Govt / Scot Parliament doing anything without Imperial approval.
So could do this, could do that, is worthless.
The SNP are an Imperial puppet government. Colonial administrators. Bought and sold.
Their careers and kudos comes from following British Imperial Law.
Manandboy , thank you , I was beginning to despair but you cheered me up.
And for those saying ‘ I won’t vote for the SNP because whatever’ who the hell are you going to vote for ? Tory? labour? Green? Liberal?
And where will that get you ? Particularly those that say they want an independent Scotland?
There is no other show in town .
Dan says:
Seeing as my suggestion for flash mobs consisting of 10s or 100s of large Sumo suited Saltire carrying activists running around causing uncivil obedience has gone down like a damp squib, I’ve been considering other options.
————-
i think its a great idea, civil disobedience with humour, is a winner as far as im concerned
it always reminds me of prof pongo who stood in a council by election dressed as a penguin and beat the libdems into 2nd place.
dont underestimate how ridicule can undermine and destroy a politicians career.
Dr Jim
Perhaps I am a bit paranoid, but in case I fall in with those who you might be thinking of, I don’t hate the FM. I simply understand the dangers of introducing gender-ideology into law.
I’ve actually been thinking about that situation, and I’ve possibly been unfair to the FM. I’ve already made clear that I appreciate she does not have a training in social science and critical feminist legal theory. I’ve just been wondering if she is a victim of circumstance and the effects of pluralistic ignorance.
These trans-lobby groups probably established themselves when Labour were in power. So they had there feet under the table before the FM took charge, and she lacks the skills to challenge their illiberal irrationality on an intellectual or legal grounding.
So perhaps she trapped into a ‘liberal’ position, though that doesn’t explain the apparent mismanagement of the civil-service.
Well done Ninewells A&E
https://twitter.com/alanferrier/status/1217385376601518080
Bet The Courier were bealing having to report this. lol
Dan 8.57pm seen a stag party in Blackpool with mock Irish leprechauns doing this. Pity they dont cuddyback f-kin Morris dancers.
Dan
I thought it was a cracker myself.
I don’t know if folk will remember me suggesting the performance art that mocked Labour in 2015, with the music from Star Wars, is a masterpiece of semiotic disobedience. I hope it has been afforded appropriate recognition by the National Library.
UK: Empire strikes back as ‘imperial masters’ gather in Glasgow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMcngLWjOrs
SEMIOTIC DISOBEDIENCE
https://openscholarship.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1180&context=law_lawreview
Dr Jim: “Scotland’s a puzzling place at times 5.5 million people with 5.5 million different views on how they want folk to fail in their own country.”
That’s superb, and your posts in general are entertaining and insightful.
Dr Jim @ 9.01
They may…. Scrub that… They will try to portray this as Nicola’s referendum,just like they did to Alex in 2014.
But this refusal also opens the door for us to to do the exact same thing to Boris Johnson and him trying to control Scotland,to personalise it right back to his obsessive UK Brexit project he is trying to force Scotland to be a part of…
Labour hopeful Lisa Nandy shows herself to be a bit of a fan of the OAP bashing Guardia Civil and their abilities of dealing with “divisive nationalism”.
Is she sure her name’s not Lisa Nazi?
Newbies won’t have caught me banging on about semiotics, which shapes our perception of reality, and forms the basic informational system of communication. So here’s an opportunity to catch up. 😉
Critical Semiotics
Theory, from Information to Affect
https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/critical-semiotics-9781472596383/
So it begins…. But not with the confidence of 2014…
Clyde property posted and quickly removed a Tweet about Indy Ref two affecting House Prices…. ( sorry can’t do links)
CameronB Brodie says:
“I’m sure the SNP the aware of the fault-line opening up in the Yes movement between pro and anti EU nats.”
I have always been a euro-skeptic and the EU’s blatant anti-democratic shenanigans around the Treaty of Lisbon and Maastricht, re-enforced my misgivings.
It is, like the United States, China and Russia an elitist den of self-serving pirates. Government of the People – By the privileged few.
I’ts apparently pleb-friendly regulations are only in place to protect their markets. The freedom of movement for workers and capital – is to provide hungrier and cheaper labour where it is needed and and the big-boys can still move their factories into the ever-expanding poverty stricken eastern zone.
That said Scotland in the EU or EFTA is a considerably more attractive proposition than to willingly become an inconsequential region of the USA’s next Colony.
So I think the fault-line will remain fairly stable until after the barbed-wire goes up in Berwick.
Malta occupied by British forces
Sounds familiar
Maltese protest British forces open fire and kill them
Sounds familiar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sette_Giugno
Just watched a clip of Blackford at PMQs today. He allowed BoJo to use the: “Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon said it was a once in a generation referendum,” line – without coming back at him with the: “Margaret Thatcher said a majority of SNP MPs at Westminster was a trigger for independence” line.
Every time they use their line, hit them with that one – I reckon they will soon shut up, since you cannot criticise the Blessed Margaret.
Then, to compound his folly, Blackford allowed him to say Scotland’s deficit was six times that of the rest of the UK. He ought to be pointing out that the Scottish Government is not allowed to run a deficit, any notional deficit refers to decisions for Scotland, taken by WEstminster – and get into him for that.
The deficit jibe is a downright lie. Call it as a lie, then hold up HoC business. Stop playing nice with them.
I hear that the Tories are going to make sure that TV quiz show contestants who win the prize of a ‘holiday of a lifetime’ are never allowed to go on any subsequent holidays because the TV companies have promised it was the holiday of a lifetime.
Who can end the 1707 treaty on behalf of England? They don’t have a parliament. Surely this currently lies in only Scotland’s hands.
Blackford very poor at prime ministers questions and not for the first time. The SNP need to toughen up, take the gloves off and start fighting hard for Independence. Time for the softly, softly approach is long gone we need strong decisive action and we need it now.
Interesting that the church in Malta supported British rule before Malta declared independence
So many similarities in british behaviour to what we see in Scotland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(Malta)
Malta as a british colony suffered
Excerpt from a book by Prof Frendo as follows
It has to be said to the credit ofMr Mintoffand ofthe Malta Labour Party that their support for Independence was a determining factor in Borg Olivier’s manoeuvring with the British government.
We owe a debt of gratitude to the author of this book for making many of us re-live yesterday; for teaching the present generation, especially those born since Independence how difficult and humiliating it was to live as a colony. To coming generations Prof. Frendo has shown the contribution made by many Maltese politicians to the constitutional development and welfare of the Maltese Islands. In particular this book brings out the diplomatic skills, the perseverance and the strong belief in the Maltese people which Borg Olivier displayed in the difficult years leading to Independence, making him indeed Missier Malta Indipendenti.
I can’t say I care much who wins the Labour leadership battle but Nandy and Phillips have looked particularly awful. Notwithstanding Nandy’s admiration of Spanish police brutality (and presumably the Black and Tans) her platitudes about all pulling together made her sound like Boris lite.
English politics has gone to a strange place and the first thing they have done is smoke the local mushrooms. I have never felt more alienated from what they say and apparently think.
Socrates MacSporran says:
“The deficit jibe is a downright lie. Call it as a lie, then hold up HoC business.”
I wonder how many of the commodities that occur in or are produced in the UK. Yield a higher per head of population value in England than in Scotland?
If as I suspect, damn few, hops, chalk and asparagus maybe … what would the over-all balance be?
Yet he claims that they subsidise us – Something doesn’t seem quite right.
Malta declared itself independent 1964
This book shows so many similarities in the way Malta and Scotland have been treated as british colonies
“ the origins of Maltese statehood “
Here is a para from the book
“Sometimes it is tragic to find Maltese students who know more about the Wars of the Roses than about events which led to their Island’s independence; “
Why did Donald Trump personally order tariffs to be placed on Scotch whisky and other Scottish products for a complaint he says he has with the French but there are so far as I know no Tariffs on English products and Boris Johnson *says* he is trying to get him to change his mind and remove Tariffs on Scotland but he told the family of the young man who was killed by car by an American woman to forget it they had no chance of bringing this woman to justice
If and when Scotland is removed from the EU in the next two weeks the American Tariffs on Scotland should cease automatically and yet the Whisky industry says they won’t be
Will the Tariffs come off if Scotland agrees not to be Independent,.You betcha they would and Boris Johnson can say he saved the day for Scotland from the Tariffs that he and Trump personally cooked up before the election to hold over Scotland
You could say we can’t prove that but does it sound like Johnson and Trump….You betcha it does
After all Scotland doesn’t make Boeing airyplanes that Trump says is what it’s all about
Green party’s Caroline Lucas says that she’s been placed on a police extremist list
I wonder who has the power to do that and I wonder who else is on the English government’s exremist list
Novara Media interview Tom Mills who wrote the excellent critique of the BBC “The BBC: Myth of a Public Service”
1 hr 8 mins.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=144&v=n9fWnQLh96c&feature=emb_logo
terence callachan
I was fairly young back then but I seem to recall the adult vibe as being one of incredulity … slapping “us” in the face after all that we had done for “them” during the war.
@ Dr Jim – Richard Murphy wrote about this a few days ago. The police in England have put out a leaflet classifying anyone who participates in Climate Change protest as an “extremist”. If you are a teacher or university tutor and you come across such dangerous subversives as Greta Thunberg you are supposed to report them to the police.
The police say it is a mistake.
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2020/01/11/there-are-climate-change-extremists-but-theyre-most-likely-defending-the-status-quo/
The GERS deficit figure is preposterous and should be mocked every time its mentioned, yet for the last few years what we’ve witnessed has been:
” Scotland has the highest deficit in the EU, and in fact its worse than Venezuela. Scotland would collapse without the fiscal transfer from England” etc etc
And the response from the SNP?
Aye, but it’s coming down, and it’s better than last year.
Fucking pathetic leadership. Fucking pathetic.
I’ve lost track of the number of times complaints are made here about how shite SNP reps are when it comes to making points like the Blackford/deficit one mentioned above.
Am I missing something?
Is it a clever game?
Or are they really competing for Chris Iwelumo’s title?
I mean.
If most of them really are that bad
And I’m beginning to think they are
Then the politically clever thing to do would be to boycott the media
That way you look like you are taking a tough stance with MSM bullshit
While actually concealing your frightening ineptness.
And as a bonus you don’t have to bother about the scorn such a stance would heap on you.
You’re getting that already.
ps
I was going to suggest they grow a pair.
But I don’t want to upset the SNP Wokers!
Regardless of what people think of Trump. Scottish statehood is dependent on recognition by the EU countries and The USA. Moresoe with a non cooperative and hostile Westminster. Yet, the president comes to Scotland and instead of building bridges and pressing Scotland’s case, The FM led the Pride parade instead. Some priorities there. Dr. Jim alludes to the fact that Trump has targeted whisky deliberately. You can’t put the blame on Johnson for that one. Think the FM can own that herself. Still it’s only the US. Trump will be gone in Jan 2025. Plenty of of time to collect a few more mandates!
What do we want?
Semiotic Disobedience: Shit-disturbers in an Age of Image Overload
https://www.slideshare.net/danieldrache/semiotic-disobedience-shitdisturbers-in-an-age-of-image-overload
And why do we need them?
Health, Healing, and Social Justice
Insights from Liberation Theology
https://www.pih.org/filebrowser/download/706
Btw, does anyone know if the Church of Scotland is still happily married to British nationalism?
Liberation Theology and Social Justice
https://www.liberationtheology.org/library/LiberationTheologyandSocialJustice_religiononline2570.htm
There are two basic ways to read the British constitution (if you can find it). The legal reading and the moral reading. Brexit is justified through a strong legal interpretation of the constitution, without balance of input from the moral reading. As such, Brexit has no moral foundations and so can’t be considered coherent with “natural law”, which is the source of the constitution’s legal force.
Toward Psychologies of Liberation
https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9780230537682
Davie Oga Trump is a huge Boris fan and loathes Sturgeon, certainly no chance of US recognition of any SNP declaration of UDI while he is president and Spain too having imposed direct rule on Catalonia when it tried to declare UDI would ensure the EU did not directly condemn Boris doing the same if the SNP followed suit to ensure it kept the direct rule card in its armory if still needed
McDuff The residents of Scotland affirmed the Union when 55% of them voted for it in 2014
@Davie Oga
Check the date of when the Tariffs were placed and when Boris Johnson became best pal of Trump and PM but if you think it’s the FMs fault why didn’t Trump order it a long time ago if his grudge was personal against her, and he ordered it, it wasn’t the American government’s trade department
But I’m guessing just like you are, but your guess reads like it’s based on personal dislike, if you don’t like the FM or the SNP don’t vote for them, there are other options which I’m sure you know
Oh and Scottish Independence is not dependant on American recognition, after all their Declaration of Independence was written and based on Scotlands declaration of Arbroath which they have long been thankful for, and when Trump is nothing more than a memory they’ll still be thanking Scotland for that
Btw, I wasn’t suggesting the FM is in anyway intellectually limited, I just think it highly unlikely that her legal training introduced her to political ontology, phenomenology, feminist standpoint epistemology, and stuff. A good Scottish invention that, epistemology.
Gender-ideology requires an anti-foundationalist epistemology, as does British nationalism. Anti-foundationalist epistemology provides the conditions for totalitarianism.
Truth and Method: Feminist Standpoint Theory Revisited
home.ku.edu.tr/~mbaker/cshs503/hekman.pdf
The late night poison parrot has arrived spewing Boris’s words like he’s a member of the Orange Lodge and a *one nation conservative* another modern terminology for those who deny there are 4 countries involved in the British Isles by attempting to obliterate the other three and subsuming them
The other modern word is *populist* the new polite description of Nazi
HYUFD
You do know Trump has just been impeached, ToryBoy?
Cameron B Brodie By a Democrat House, the Republican Senate will vote it down. I also can’t see any of the current weak crop of Democratic presidential candidates beating him in November
HYUFD
I’m not commenting on a live case. Are you aware of any of the evidence arranged against him? Are you a rational being or simply a reactionary partisan?
Lets take HYUFD on a little philosophical excursion.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13869795.2019.1599050
And here is why British nationalists simply can not deny Scotland self-determination. Irrational belief is no grounds to arbitrarily deny legal recognition of inalienable human rights. Which are indivisible from the individual in any case. As such, it is hard to consider contemporary British nationalism moral in character, or legal in standing.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11098-016-0657-8
NO one will make an impression on this one CBB, the Internet is full of his kind at the moment chests puffed out faces flushed in victory, right hand raised in the air alive with their own self importance and the arrogance that comes with the belief they are invincible, and death to those who disagree, if the Tories were handing out uniforms these types would form an extremely orderly queue to receive one while keeping an eye out for anyone who didn’t look like them in it, just like the same ones in America when he won, then they began shooting the black folk they always hated but wouldn’t now be found guilty of knocking off, like they would do to us given the chance
Even Louis Theroux would be terrified to go anywhere near to expose them, but they’ll soon be doing it all by themselves
There’s very likely a big deflation coming for them though when the EU says sorry but this trade deal thing you want is going to be more than problematic, and the person doing it will be a woman, and they hate that, that type always do
Johnson and Trump two men who can’t deal with women equally because they don’t believe women can possibly be their equals, let alone superiors
@ Dan 8.57pm good video Dan and I bet we could do that too but there is one thing that stops us the freezing f+++in rain
I loved your idea about flash mobs I have actually seen one done in Germany with Tommy Sheridan and it was stirring
What is epistemic normativity?
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13869795.2017.1287296
https://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199231188.001.0001/acprof-9780199231188-chapter-12
Dr Jim
You’ve got to feel a little sorry for someone who makes such an effort to piss on someone else’s chips. Though Torydum and misogynistic paternalism are kith and kin, and British nationalism is the practice of Tory ethos and tradition. Old-skool rational-paternalism* towards Scotland, certainly appears to be back in fashion. 😉
* the logic of imperialism.
The oxford scholarship link was to this, for those who don’t clock blind links. I thought it a bit of overkill but didn’t delete the link.
Epistemic Value
Epistemic Normativity
Get a big wummin and go solo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzGN-GU7xdY
We’re all prisoners of time. Though they have just detected some ripple in time and space heading this way. Way out perhaps? Loads on in the mean time as the UK goes on .
Brexit day could be celebrated at the Scotland v England Calcutta Cup match in just over 3 weeks.
March sees the start of the Alex Salmond auto da fe with Scotland v Israel match half way through it. Could end with a chance to be hosting our own finals games in Glasgow and the former first minister vindicated . Or we could out the cup and hosting countries that didn’t exist until the nineties and the best leader the SNP has had is locked up . All before Easter.
Then this summer England hosts their best chance ever to become European Champions . Every game they manage whatever at Wembley.
Wonder what the weather will be like in the build up to COP 26 the largest ever summit in the UK when world leaders make a last pretence/effort to start stopping this shitfest to Armageddon. Should create a few temporary jobs in Glasgow as parts of it become international territory.
Prisoner I am , it’s being televised though.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158009582268293&id=707213292
A memorable image from the AUOB MARCH IN GLASGOW (11.01.2020)
The SNP have the tools to resist this nonsense where an unelected Tory government in Westminster dictate to Scotland.
With a majority of MPs and with control of the Scottish Parliament the SNP can push the Scottish mandate and ipso facto operate Scotland Outside Westminster control.
Act as a sovereign nation. What’s to stop Hollyrood doing that. Just take control and ignore Westminster diktats.its maybe easier than we think.
Think independent, act indeoendent, what’s stopping us.The mechanisms are in place. Let’s use them.
https://www.liberationtheology.org/library/LiberationTheologyandSocialJustice_religiononline2570.htm
As recommended by the inestimable CameronB Brodie earlier, a little light reading, perhaps for incorrigible insomniacs as well as the most dedicated academics. But not, I repeat, not for the fainthearted.
Inevitably, I am still unable to answer the question posed, viz, ‘does anyone know if the Church of Scotland is still happily married to British nationalism?’
Should anyone come to a text-based opinion in answer, I would be very interested to read it.
In the meantime, if memory serves me correctly, Yes voters from the Church of Scotland in Indy2014 numbered around 35% of membership of the CoS. An indication perhaps that the answer may be ‘yes’, but only by majority. Those 35% are to be celebrated.
And how, Willie, does Holyrood acting ‘independendently’, get to control Scotland’s income from all sources, or Scotland’s Unionist Councils?
Let’s just be independent, the way England and every other independent country is independent. Minus colonies of course.
If Northern Ireland gets special status for trade & customs with the EU, but Scotland is denied the same conditions would that not constitute a breach of the act of union 1707 section VI which states that Scotland must have the same conditions for trade and customs as the other parts of the UK?
“That all parts of the United Kingdom for ever from and after the Union shall have the same Allowances Encouragements and Drawbacks and be under the same Prohibitions Restrictions and Regulations of Trade and lyable to the same Customs and Duties on Import and Export And that the Allowances Encouragements and Drawbacks Prohibitions Restrictions and Regulations of Trade and the Customs and Duties on Import and Export settled in England when the Union commences shall from and after the Union take place throughout the whole United Kingdom”
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1707/7/section/VI
ANOTHER GLITTERING TORY SUCCESS STORY
http://archive.ph/wip/HdOSR
“Criminal records scandal: police chiefs blame Theresa May
Former home secretary accused of botched reforms that led to failures over foreign criminals”
“Theresa May has been blamed by chief constables for botched police reforms that led to tens of thousands of alerts on foreign criminals being kept from their home countries.”
“She is accused of “starving” the crucial police national computer (PNC) of money against advice from forces when she was home secretary, and instead pushing ahead with an ambitious and costly super-database to replace it that is now years behind schedule and millions of pounds over budget.”
PM Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson makes Theresa May look outstanding in political management and leadership.
PMJohnson redefines the meaning of the word ‘clown’, while at the same time, guaranteeing that no one will ever again take Westminster politics seriously.
Except that is, for the naive among us, – and those thoroughly brainwashed British Nationalists, especially in the Tory, Labour and Liberal Democratic parties, the OO, and the diminishing and isolated Loyalist community in the temporarily English-partitioned six counties in the North East of Ireland.
The English Establishment is fighting for its very life, as The Grim Reaper rises from his chair, his next assignment written for his eyes only. But the English Ruling Class know that their time has come.
It is surely imperative that the Scottish government make a statement on Stephane Sechaud’s comment above.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/aosp/1707/7/section/VI
@stephane sechaud
Im no lawyer or constitutional expert , but i agree , it probably does constitute a breach of the acts of union.
The trouble is, this is nothing new. England , with its pre dominant position within this unequal union , has been doing just that since 1707.
It was one of the reasons that moved lord seafield , one of the original supporters of this union , to propose the first self government of scotland bill in westminster back in 1714.
William lecky famously wrote in parliamentary history
“Scotland is one of the few instances in history of a nation whose political representation was so grossly ineffective as to not merely distort , but absolutely conceal its opinions.
The question then becomes not wether england is breaking the acts of union , thats nothing new , but what scotland will do about it?
@manandboy – what’s interesting about that link is ‘Words repealed by Statute Law Revision (Scotland) Act 1964 (c. 80), Sch. 1’
That means Westminster asserts the right to change this Act. Not news to us perhaps, but a clear example of them doing just that.
What that assertion is based on I have never found an answer to. Its like ‘don’t ask, we don’t talk about that’.
So where is it? Where is bite back from our Government? What form is it taking?
I’ve seen a handle of quips about Boris Johnson which stop short of any commitment to anything, and about three times the number of quips about Lisa Nandy being a fascist sympathiser.
Hello, we’re getting fucked out of Europe in a fortnight, our Constitutional Sovereignty is about to have it’s wings and legs pulled off, and our Scottish Government which has sat and twiddled our thumbs for us for over four years is expressing all the anger and outrage of a theatre goer who was rather disappointed with a performance.
If the SNP, that’s the National Party of Scotland, the appointed souls we have chosen to lead Scotland out of subjugation, “the” Party of Scottish Independence…. if they do NOTHING while Scotland’s inviolable Sovereignty is sacrificed on the broken alter of a Treaty of Union which is tissue of perfidious sophistry, then this “devolved” government is worthless to us.
Rather than expecting the SNP to expose their comfy seats in both Holyrood and Westminster by any animated rejection of Westminster’s colonialism, maybe Scotland the Nation, the Sovereign Nation, should simply sack them, and re-elect a thoroughly new sovereign Scottish Government, loyal by oath to the Sovereign Constitution of Scotland, and obedient to the democratic will of the sovereign people of Scotland.
“Yet if he should give up what he has begun, and agree to make us or our kingdom subject to the King of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive him out as our enemy and a subverter of his own rights and ours, and make some other man who was well able to defend us our King; for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule.”
Please tell me, through toothless acquiescence of our Brexit subjugation, and arbitrary abandonment of the principle of Scottish Sovereignty, perhaps the SNP is missing another mandate they have already secured… the mandate the Scottish people have to drive them out a subverter of their own rights and ours, and make some other Scottish Government our “king”.
What does it matter if the 1707 Act of Union is breached.so what if Scotland is treated unequally with NI ( or intact Ireland which was not a part of the UK until their 1801 Act of Union )
What does it matter if a majority of Scottish MPs are ignored.
What does it matter if Scots Law guaranteed under the Act of Union is usurped.
Lie down Scotland. Just lie down and take a kicking. Let England stamp on your face. There is nothing you can do.
Later on in 2021, and unless we create an alternative independence party, or do something now, we can re-elect the pseudo independence SNP as token political ornament.
Sorry too.. my spelling gets really sloppy when I’m angry.
If one Scottish army won’t fight, we must raise another.
The SNP Scottish Government should appoint an independence minister who should have a meeting with all appointed organisers of all the different independence groups, English for Independence, woman for Independence, Ric , Bikers for Independence etc, etc, etc start meeting at least once a month not just in Edinburgh but all round Scotland and open for anyone to attend and have their say, organise stalls at all the shows during the summer arrange for stalls at all the Highland games here and all over the world where they take place, organise peaceful marches, won’t be long till you get more and more people changing their views, the only thing is the Scottish Government will have to spend a wee bit of money to organise and to keep it going as long as everything is transparent, they have to do something now or they’ll miss the impetus.
Breeks says:
Sorry too.. my spelling gets really sloppy when I’m angry.
If one Scottish army won’t fight, we must raise another.
—————–
a call for other people to take up arms
ha ha ha ha ha
thomas says:
The question then becomes what scotland will do about it?
————-
no it isnt
The question is what will you do about it?
Willie says:
Lie down Scotland. Just lie down and take a kicking. Let England stamp on your face. There is nothing you can do.
————
what do you plan to do about it?
As I’ve said how to before: Scotland exercises sovereignty to exercise the decisions already democratically established.
Let the UK Govt argue in court and by its actions before a watching world that Scotland’s democratic decisions by a sovereign people can be overruled by the power of Empress Queen Elizabeth, based on English pre-Union law of Divine Right of monarchs.
Let the British Empire’s Supreme Court rule before the world and the UN, if it dare, that Scottish democracy and common sovereignty of the people is overruled by the authority of the Divine Right of Kings via UK Parliament.
robertknight wrote on 15 January, 2020 at 5:53 pm: “‘Suspension’ is not the same as “shutting down” or “closing down”.”
Very true Robert, i never said it was. There’s been 1 or 2 folk on WOS using the terminology i mentioned. But since you mention it you’ve raised an interesting point. “The Scottish Parliament is permanent” they say?
So if that’s the case then surely any attempt to even “suspend” it would be, technically, breaking the terms of ‘The Smith Commission Agreement’ because stopping the routine working of anything means it’s not permanently running?
Those better at languages and with words could probably word that better, as would any legal-eagles etc, but you’ll get what i mean.
The current Scottish stasis is a strong indicator that the reluctantly nationalist SNP ought not to be left to direct the course of the independence movement.
An autonomous nationalist body, think tank, symposium or policy institute independent of the normative party political is overdue.
The SNP’s day job is running devolved Scotland as it is now, such a body would be concerned with Scotland as it could and ought to be and the means by which a sovereign state can be restored. We need fresh thinking.
The design of the old matrix is proving inadequate.
Don’t know if i had a dream or a nightmare last night. Was at the end of this month and the First Minister was announcing a referendum and shouting to Bozo “You can’t deny Scotland access to democratic processes.” Then i woke up drenched in sweat feeling good. The mood in the dream/nightmare was one of high confidence on our side. True story! All this crap must be getting to me. 🙂
The unionist grand strategy is to win enough MSP seats at the next Scottish election to be able to replace the SNP+Green government
Rm says: at 8:30 am
I’m not sure I’d want the Scottish Government (and by extension the SNP) anywhere near micro managing the greater YES movement.
The grassroots activists groups you mention are already up and running, working away raising awareness, and over years have built up networks to other groups and individuals.
So when the YES Bikers attend an AUOB march it has been arranged where, when and how they will interact with the march.
The grassroots have this stuff in hand. Allowing some egotistical politicians to try and own it gives me the jitters.
FFS for years we’ve been banging our heads against a wall with frustration because our politicians still can’t learn or manage to put together a quick rebuke to OIAG and Deficit soundbites thrown at them in interviews.
If they showed a modicum of ability to address these basic aspects I might have a minuscule amount of confidence in them, till then they can concentrate on the tasks and mandates we elected them to do on our behalf.
The Tory strategy for Scotland is to replace the SNP+Green scottish government at the next Holyrood election by a grand unionist coalition of Tory+LibDem+Labour. Put an end to the uppity Scots for ever: and not just on the independence question. This has become a little less plausible after the loss of Ruth Davidson, but it’s not impossible. Most to the point, the tories don’t think it’s impossible, and this thought will determine the tactics at least up to the next Scottish election — and probably beyond, if they are not, after all, successful then.
@ Ottomanboi on 16 January, 2020 at 9:35 am:
Not long after the 2014 indyref i floated the idea that what we need to get going was various groups of people getting together according to their expertise or preferred choice. Then working on producing a small booklet, from a pro-indy point, and getting it into circulation.
For example one group could do ‘Finance’ which would cover pensions, taxes, currency & GERS. Keeping it well short of boring but above all else factual. Along similar lines to WOS’ ‘Wee Blue Book’ but in booklet form 2-4 pages long.
There would be other groups formed to cover other serious issues such as borders, passports, movement, Exports, Defence, Health etc etc. I know there’s other topics but this is just to give you a clear idea. And each group would be responsible for raising its own funds and printing etc.
Even suggested a stiff A5 size card worth of factual info on each of the main topics would be sufficient and cheaper. One or two folk thought it a good idea but that’s as far as it went. Too late now!
Scottish Parliament apparently voted against the SNP education policy yesterday. Gary Robertson (RScotland) interviewed Larry Flanagan this morning, cuing up opportunities for SNP bad responses. He didn’t get them. LF let us know that teachers are fed up of endless change. They have already reviewed the 3 – 15 curriculum and are currently reviewing the senior curriculum. They need peace to get on with it. Thus he endorsed John Swinney’s promise to “reflect” on the vote in parliament.
Gary very disappointed.
Not often that happens.
Climate Change protesters are blockading Shell’s Aberdeen headquarters. Meanwhile, dangerous revolutionary, David Attenborough is warning that the moment of crisis has come.
It’ll be interesting to see what the public reaction is to blockades of HQs.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-51132110
I have just had to swat an annoying mosquito buzzing round my ears. A mosquito – in Scotland – in January.
So a unelected member of the undemocratic House of Lords, Lord Patrick Cormack, is trying to get his private members bill into law that rigs a second Scottish indyref, in a similar fashion to that of Labours George Cunninghame in 1979. Where the dead counted as no voters.
It’s patently obvious to me that democracy at Westminster is now what they say it is.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18163116.zombie-voters-decide-indyref/
Stoker @ 10.09 you should keep up with Business for Scotland’s efforts and publications on the economy.
O/T Scotland in Union stalwart Allan Sunderland praises new Aberdeen by pass but somehow forgets to mention which government built and paid for it against some Unionist mainly Lib Dems objections
https://www.snp.org/nicola-sturgeon-looks-to-the-year-ahead/
“The SNP will continue to work with others to soften the impact as much as we can but there is no doubt that the Tories have been emboldened by their election success south of the border and will be in no mood to compromise on their hard Brexit plans.”
Nicola Sturgeon. 16th January 2020, two weeks before Scotland’s unlawful and unconstitutional colonial subjugation which will damage Scotland’s economy by four times the damage of the 2008 Credit Crunch.
Go and get fucked SNP. I have no other words. Go find a hole to live in, you tossers.
Interesting (and somewhat disgusting) to see Nandy on AN advocating Spanish style Policing to deal with the pesky Scots, but even more interesting to see the almost wholesale support within the MSM for her horrific comments.
Brexit is an English Nationalist project – and that is who she is appealing to.
Things are now at the stage that the ‘nice leftwing English colonialist’ – isn’t even trying to hide it anymore. I mean they’ve always felt bad about it – and waffled on about internationalism, but really they want to keep Scotland as an English possession just as much as the Tories, just with added hypocrisy…. and a sad face.
Hopefully some of our former No Voters will start to see behind the curtain and not like where this is going.
If this kind of talk keeps getting pushed and well received in Englandshire, a working Holyrood isn’t looking likely.
I see the perpetually rejected by the electorate Tory MSP Carlaw is promising tax cuts for the middle class, should he somehow become Scotland’s First Minister.
Our wonderful MSM is totally on the ball as usual, asking which public services are going to be cut to pay for this. Errrrr – NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Although we probably won’t get our indyref this year, hearts and minds in Holyroods unionist parties might be opening up to the idea of a indepedent Scotland.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18163172.snp-mp-says-parties-keen-indy/
@Stoker, 10.09
The work started some time ago
As Sinky says, have a read of Scotland the Brief, available in A5 or A4, eye-opening,
https://www.businessforscotland.com/scotland-the-brief/
You should also try how to start a new country: a practical guide for Scotland (and it really is a practical guide so, for example, has how to set up Scotland’s currency) from https://support.commonweal.scot/product/how-to-start-a-new-country-a-practical-guide-for-scotland/
For discussion documents on other topics, see
https://commonweal.scot/policy-library
It’s official!
The SNP are modifying the blue in Scottish Saltires from Pantone 3000 to Pantone 000c.
Indyref2
Point of Order in the debate:
Boris Johnson and the UK state have NOT blocked or refused indyref2. They simply refused a section 30 request.
As far as I know there’s only one person that is currently blocking indyref2: Nicola Sturgeon – with SNP approval; despite the many mandates to deliver indyref2 in the lifetime of this Holyrood parliament.
Sturgeon is the person who insisted an indyref cannot go ahead without a section 30, without the cooperation and approval of her Imperial Masters.
Don’t blame the UK, Evil Empires do what comes naturally to them: blame the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon in particular.
!isa Nandy ?____then they fight you.
Breeks @ 11-10am says “Go and get fucked SNP. I have no other words. Go find a hole to live in, you tossers.”
For someone with ‘no other words’ you do seem to find an awful lot to spout on here!!
sassenach says:
16 January, 2020 at 11:41 am
Breeks @ 11-10am says “Go and get fucked SNP. I have no other words. Go find a hole to live in, you tossers.”
For someone with ‘no other words’ you do seem to find an awful lot to spout on here!!
If you don’t like my words, let me quote you Rabbie Burns, “Ode to the SNP”.
O would, or I had seen the day
That Treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay
Wi Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour
I’ll mak this declaration
We’re bought and sold for English gold –
Sic a parcel o rogues in a nation!
.
Ya missed one Stu.
That is not like you chief 😉
We should add an option to the list in your article and get it taken to the door of number 10 Downing Street & House of Commons by ALL the Tory MPs and Conservative voters.
Some canny Scottish lateral thought is needed here. Stu. Rather that us all sit on the side-lines of what feels like Ally’s Tartan Army song and a perpetual 1978 World Cup losing streak translated to IndyRef-never-gonnae-happen, maybes we should go proactive and invade England…
Stu., here is what you missed off of your list…
OPTION 8
Positively utilise the power of hatred that middle England Tory voters have for we subsidy junkies in Scotland.
We print five million copies of the…
WEE BLUE BOOK TO HELP ENGLAND GET RID OF SCOTLAND.
Take the battle to the strongest, most powerful part of the U.K. That is… Middle England.
They already hate us down there. When they read this all too common Scots are subsidised pish…
http://archive.is/tlLFs
The English below-the-line comment sections become a cesspit of Little England Scot-haters.
Stu., if we help Westminster Tory’s to vote for IndyRef2 by mobilizing Middle England to write to their shire MPs en masse, then that will get us much closer to SEXIT.
‘Gold standard’ an aw that…
Imagine you’re famished and finally get out of the office to grab some lunch…
What you want is one of those designer deli sandwiches with the really top-grade bread and pastrami and top-notch Orkney cheddar cheese and all sorts of pickles and blahdy-bla. It costs a fiver.
You’ve only got three quid. It’s enough to get a lunchtime meal deal in Greggs: a basic cheese and ham baguette, a packet of crisps and a bottle of water.
But because you can’t have the big fancy piece? you just do without and go back to work, well brassed-off, belly growling.
(Okay, it’s not the best analogy ever created but I’m sure you get the gist.)
🙁
“Labour MP Lisa Nandy says places “like Catalonia” may provide examples of how to “beat” the Scottish independence movement. So, with police brutality and by locking up elected politicians?”
https://mobile.twitter.com/stephenpaton134/status/1217558374092623874
Jeez oh, so Labour (Lisa Nandy) intends to beat up, shoot and tear gas Scots if they vote for independence, and here am I thinking that only the Tories would think of such a thing.
What really gets me with the Labour bunch of leadership candidates who hope to woo back their brexit voting English nationalists is this notion that they think they get to define what social justice is all about. They care just as much about Glasgow as they do about (say) Bolsover supposedly.
Well Bolsover voters didn’t care about Scotland when they voted in the Tories and 70% in favour of Brexit. It’s all one way traffic for English Nationalists – do what is best for England’s myriad of problems – inequality, NHS and education – and if you don’t then you need stamped down and beaten up.
Lisa Nandy is being feted by allegedly sensible voices on the internet because she wasn’t ambushed by Andrew Neil. Is that the benchmark for a leader? The same media test that Boris Johnston managed to avoid? He wasn’t that hard on her, it is almost like he knew what she was going to say. Is she the Unionist darling now that Davidson, Swinson, Dugdale etc etc are all gone.
She said what seems unthinkable to us, that Spanish style democracy is to be admired no matter what it entails because the result was right for her. The same ‘Socialists’ that got Alex Salmond thrown out of the EU Socialist alliance in 2016 will be right behind her, along with the GMB (Richard Leonard’s tribe).
So we are seeing Labour yet again doing the Tories dirty work for them, saying the unthinkable and laying the foundation for legislation to take away our rights.
Well done Labour.
Brutish Labour, shadow health secretary, Jonathan Ashworth ,
absolutely eviscerating the standards in the English NHS in UK parliament.
Unionism is racism. Its cultural myths fractured Scotland into Anglo-saxon lowland Scot and Celtic highland Gael.
The former considered much superior to the latter by virtue of supposed better DNA.
We know that, except for believers in the pseudo-science purveyed by the Ancestry industry, all that is racialist nonsense. But, its traces remain in the way Scots perceive themselves.
Thanks to the Union, England and its language culture have a psychological ‘edge’, sufficient to induce the lamentable Scotch cringe in even the best.
The Scotch cringe is not a one off, the dominance of anglo-american influence has provoked many cultural cringes. Such cringes are weak points allowing the virus of colonialism and neo-colonialism to spread its infection.
I am a Scottish nationalist because I believe it is an antiviral and a powerful one, designed in a particularly experienced laboratory.
Lisa Nandy’s Catalonia comments mentioned on the Politics Show and how the “Nats” didn’t like them. Someone pointed out that some politicians don’t understand Scottish politics. Really?!!
“The people are telling us they want a Labour government” says Labour’s one and only MP representing Scotland Ian Murray
We just had an election and I’m sure the people actually didn’t say that at all
Tory candidate for leader in Scotland Jackson Carlaw said “we need to campaign to teach the Scottish people about patriotism again not Nationalism”
Eh, erm, whit noo?
FMQs today,Chapman asking his question and all the time a certain person messing on her phone,I seem to know the face oh yes its that Davidson person the golden women of the Tories who chickened out when the going got tough.
Well done to my MSP Kenny Gibson at FMQs. “SNP MSP Kenneth Gibson says trans women being placed in women’s prisons can have an impact on vulnerable female prisoners. Ms Sturgeon says it is important to protect women’s rights, but we must also respect and protect trans rights. There is not an inevitable conflict between the two, she adds.” Apparrently Christina McKelvie and Shirley Anne Sommerville weren’t happy, so he must have been talking sense.
There once was an MP named Nandy
For neo-Francoists she was very handy
She praised their thug style
Said it stood out a mile
And to try it on Jocks would be dandy
The Mandy comments should be abhorrent to every Scottish media outlet. But alas we live in a country where the media represent neo facism, the British state and Westminster.
A bit of levity…
Please sign the petition to have Tommy Cooper made the patron saint of East Kilbride.
https://www.change.org/p/scottish-government-make-tommy-cooper-the-patron-saint-of-east-kilbride/psf/promote_or_share
Stoker@9:33…
I catch your drift. Westminster can and has suspended devolved institutions without the need to abolish them. Witness the “Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections and Periods of Suspension) Act 2003”.
The Northern Ireland Assembly existed albeit on paper throughout all the recent periods of suspension.
It’s not beyond the realms of the impossible to imagine BawJaws, Gove, Jack etc. rushing through emergency legislation on an 80+ majority if it suited them.
Who knew …well us really…that showing how TOUGH you would be on Scotland and those of us with a passion for leaving the Union (Non) was the true measure of how good/effective/strong you would be as Labour HQ Union uber alles leader.
Keep it up Labour….once more you, via those who vie for the position of leader, are resplendently Unionist in displaying your contempt and ignorance of Scotland….and it’s people….as per.
From candidates as the prospective new leader to candidates for the new deputy…a consensus has continued to be upheld that Scotland shall NOT be heard and must cede to the will of the majority aka England and it’s parliament WM…. a La Labour HQ….and there doth the Branch office follow.
Let’s be honest they are doing a lot of our work in convincing Scots ….who may still be erring on caution….that we are and always have been dictated to as the ‘minor’ part of UKnotOK and the fantasy of a Union of equals is only used when they feel they need to placate us back into subservient mode.
” First they ignore you..then they laugh at you..then they fight you…then you WIN”….
Perhaps if their passion had been deployed better in the Brexit mess we would all, including our English Remain friends, NOT be in this current position….but then they must constantly placate the majority English electorate if they are to win the biggest prize and sit in the seats at WM as government…….the indisputable fact in UKnotOK is that England always gets what it wants by a majority while others within the UKnotOK are expected to just accept this and have no recourse to change it…..well Scotland does…and that is the problem…for ALL Unionist parties….the fact they choose NOT to accept that Scotland has a choice is a problem THEY need to address….the more they resist …the more Scots will see and indeed wonder why they want to keep us in a Tory UKnotOK…..via dominance.
Funny how Labour sit on the fence on so many things and yet on the Union they are 100% on the same page as Boris and his Tory party…..perhaps that is something Scots, who still support Labour, should think long and hard about….before it’s too late…..bearing in mind those WE elect in Scotland should also have a plan to ensure our escape from those who seem perhaps too intent on holding us captive within this (Non) Union of unequals….as , I believe, they have promised on more occasions than even I can remember.
“A promise made is a promise kept”….we all await on it being honoured…..SNP.
I may be missing something but why do many on here pay so much attention to what goes on in British ie English political circles?
We need to stand back, adopt a clearer, leaner perspective and ‘selfishly’ concern ourselves with one thing only.
Let the rest ‘go hang’.
Scotland begins training for the day Lisa Nandy becomes Prime Minister.
https://twitter.com/IndyTom3/status/1217556509699248133
Re my comment at 3.22pm…one of the prominent ‘liberal’ minded remainers take on Phillips and Nandy’s position on Scotland via Twitter…has tweeted this :
” In both cases they’ve made comments or allusions that were probably unwise. Everyone messes up a bit. It happens”
Yeah..it happens..mistakes…like all of the ‘mistakes’ Corbyn made…wow it seems Labour just keep making mistake after mistake…so perhaps considering even VOTING for LABOUR would be the BIGGEST mistake a voter (in Scotland definitely) could make irrespective of WHO was their leader…new boss same as the old boss eh?
If you need to make excuses for them BEFORE they are potentially elected as ‘new’ leader then perhaps you should consider YOUR position as a fanboy of the candidates you are obviously supporting Mr Ian Dunt….Scots on the other hand do not..we see them for what they are…no friend to Scotland most definitely…and NO it does not just “happen”..and was NO ‘mistake’ ….what they said was deliberate, tactical and it’s intention crystal clear and no amount of spin by you will change that FACT.
Lisa Nandy espouses british values.
Labour, Conservative and Libdem politicians all edpouse british values.
Almost all british minded people are like that.
There are probably a few who aren’t.
Maybe in the likes of Extinction Rebellion, or Green peace.
Maybe.
Ottomanboi
Sometimes I wish I’d taken the blue pill. 😉
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/10826718.pdf
Now I’m just showing off. Or am I? 😉
Identity, Oppression, and Power
Feminisms and Intersectionality Theory
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0886109907310475
No, I just understand the illiberal nature of British nationalism.
POWER, PRIVILEGE, & OPPRESSION
http://www.scrippscollege.edu/xbk/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/files/Power-Privilege-and-Oppression.pdf
Has anyone considered that Nandy Knows there can be no more than one
Labour MP in Scotland and they will during her career be more Scottish Tory MPs?
Does Labour have better chance of a Westminster majority down the line if Scotland is free?
Does she think that such a comment will fuel the independence movement further?
There really is Zero Talent in Labour, especially Scotland.
It will be a generation before anyone worthwhile might come through
But who with any true socialist leanings would join the disaster that is Labour?
Labour’s Welsh NHS and Transport policies are failures behind the Tory versions
And the Tory one compared to SNP’s.
Labour had their name on the corrupt Scottish Parliament building, the Edinburgh Trams,
The Glasgow Council refusal to apply equal pay.
They refused public access to the McCrone Report, the Dunblane massacre they stole 6,000 miles of Scotland’s maritime waters, the took a full year to decide if the Tory Bedroom Tax attacking the disabled was fair.
They signed up the incredibly stupid and costly PFI schools and hospitals with crippling interest payments.
They didn’t vote against the last round of Tory Austerity cuts, they lied about an independent Scotland not having pensions, knowing them to be guaranteed, and outrageously put forward
Would wouldn’t have a blood transfusion service or be capable of managing transplant surgery?
They are a very low life form and I could never have anything to do with them again as long as I live.
To quote Thatcher “New Labour is her proudest achievement”!
Imitation is the sincerest for of flattery for the Tories.
Reposting this link from the previous thread:
At the bottom of the article there is a question on Yahoo looking for your vote:
Should Scotland have a second Independence Referendum?
Voting for YES currently on 44% could do with a bit of reassurance I think….
Apologies to Rm for my post at 9:53 am.
I meant to start it with “@Rm” rather than “RM says”, so don’t want anybody to attribute what I said as coming from Rm in an incorrectly formatted response I made to their 8.30am post.
Cheers also to those who were mildly positive to the formation of a Saltired Sumo Society (Uncivil Obedience chapter).
I’ve taken your responses as a tacit but ever important mandate to proceed and have procured 4 suits!
Note that you have also been inducted into the group as honorary and founding members and I expect you can’t wait to get suited up at at the first possible opportunity. lol
Here’s a tune dedicated to y’all.
Turning Japanese by The Vapors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWWwM2wwMww
Meg
What link?
According to this article:
https://www.insider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1?r=US&IR=T&utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark
Even the mighty broad shoulder of the British economy we’ve been told constantly about can’t sustain that amount of damage.
It is fair to say that Brexit will really start to bite next year. It makes sense holding a referendum then.
Above all what I want to say is that there’s no need for defeatism or a lack of confidence as we await the announcement of the FMs plans later this month. There is all to play for.
https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1217845800799211521?s=20
So here we go again, folks, looks like they’re stepping up a gear or two with the continued lies of 2014.
Firstly, note how immediately Microsoft & MSN distance themselves as far from the pile of shite that’s about to follow.
Secondly, if you scroll to the end you’ll see the author, ‘Emma Guinness’, is just another churnalist making all sorts of claims in her new found life, apparently, and that she works for Vt.co.
A basic search shows that:
“VT Communications was a part of VT Group plc. VT Communications was essentially the company formed from the privatisation of the BBC World Service transmitter sites. It was initially named Merlin Communications, then, after acquisition by VT, VT Merlin Communications.” http://archive.is/gzEpy
Looks like dear ‘Emma’ followed the yellow brick gold and now she’s working for the grand old wizard Merlin. Yeah! Right! If any of that is true then dear Emma’s clearly cut out to be a BritNat Unionist, fuck you jack i’m alright eh?
How long must we wait before they, who excuse so much of the many Unionist f**k ups, begin to declare……
Scot Nats take Lisa Nandy’s comment on Andrew Neil show….out of context…BUT see here’s the excuse we offer the Nats…..Lisa perhaps should have elaborated what she meant….of course she NEVER meant that the UKnotOK powers that be should get physical with Scots seeking indy……i.e. she was so NOT condoning violence as inflicted by the Spanish authorities upon Catalonians…i.e. the separatists… BUT just meant withholding the right to hold another Referendum….cause that would have been fine and dandy and MORE acceptable to the Scot Nats….democracy no more but we won’t beat you up to enforce it…just keep saying No and continuing to ignore you….see…context is EVERYTHING…not Lisa’s fault the Nats chose to misrepresent what she said…honestly they are just grievance mongers are they not…it’s all simples really….
Does that work for you Scots ?
Seems Social JUSTICE Nandy style comes at a price indeed does not exist ….for the few (Scots)….. but for the many ( you know who)…well it’s bring it on…or NOT if Labour were in charge….
I am now once more at the screaming stage again….partly due to a section of Scottish society whose apathy on the UKnotOK sh*t show we, in Scotland, are having to ENDURE and STILL they vote for Unionist parties ( aware some’s allegiance is via religion as opposed to political beliefs) AND screaming also partly due to politicians like Nandy and many others who utter, with no sense of awareness or concern, such inane, insulting and destructive utterances with no sense of the potential impact they may have on those whom they are targeted at…like Nandy cares how we, the Scots, feel…I am delving deep into fantasy if I believed OUR opinion mattered to her and her cronies….I am , like others, melting with rage, frustration, desperation, incredulity and many other emotions at how this is still allowed to continue with nothing happening to speed up our release from this toxic f***ed up full of C**t WM politicians mega flawed political dictatorship who are lording it over us and telling US, Scots, what we can and cannot do…..I have to be honest I am also screaming a wee bit with the SNP hope I am proven wrong and they do have a Plan B (as in ‘B for Better’ than just asking for a ref.)……aaaaarrgggghhhhh times a million.
Maybe I will laugh in the face of adversity…nope..still raging……Somewhere over the Rainbow…nope…still raging..sorry for this negative comment but honestly my patience is wafer thin at this whole sh*t show and my depression is starting to impact upon on how I am acting and reacting to this never ending saga of Cr*p…I need hope because just now I feel such deep despair and a huge sadness…FFS someone make me laugh cause I do not have the energy to try and raise any humour.
Please download this from the university of Malta
It’s a book called “ the origins of Maltese statehood”
Malta became independent 1964 , not that long ago
This book gives you information about how the british state treated Malta
You will recognise a lot of the behaviour as being the same that Scotland gets right now and what we can expect a time passes
Honestly you will interested in this book here is a link
https://www.um.edu.mt/library/oar/bitstream/123456789/23515/3/The%20Origins%20of%20Maltese%20Statehood.pdf
When a career criminal steals your online banking details and then withdraws a few grand from your account, he is not in the slightest bit interested in your democratic rights. To him democracy is meaningless.
The English Establishment is just like that, as is the Westminster Unionist Alliance. To them, Democracy is just for window-dressing. It doesn’t matter if it’s Tory, Labour or Liberal Democrats. They only want Scotland’s wealth.
By importing the ideas of Neoliberalism, Margaret Thatcher turned contempt for Democracy into unspoken Westminster Government policy. And so it has been ever since, with the relentless transfer of public wealth into private Bank accounts. It is Scotland’s great misfortune therefore to be incredibly wealthy and to be in a Union with perhaps the most evil and most treacherous country on earth, England. Not the whole population of course, but mainly just the Ruling Class, aka the Establishment.
In talks between Holyrood and Westminster since the SNP came to power in Scotland, the SNP have always used the language of Democracy and meant it. Westminster also always speaks the language of Democracy, remember the VOW and the Smith Commission, but they don’t mean a word of it. It is debatable, say the cynics, that the SNP leadership are fully aware of that. Hence the reason for the suggestions that the SNP are gullible and naive. Like chickens in the Scottish hen-house listening intently to the promises of the English fox salivating in the corner.
But we digress. The point to make is that while Scotland has remained largely true to its democratic and socialist credentials, The English Ruling Class has made a deviously malign move to a neo-liberal, rampant Capitalist, almost outright criminal and colonial model of government.
Thatcher’s grand plan to create a turbo-wealthy, all-powerful elite, at the expense of the bulk of the population, is nearing completion. And all done in the political disguise of the Union. But the truth is that Scotland is no more in union with England, than a cow is with its dairy-farmer owner. Scotland is a Cash Cow – which delude itself with ideas of democracy and self-determination.
With the Brexit deadline approaching, the pressure is certainly showing everywhere you care to look, and certainly in Scotland.
I still think Scotland will win the match with a couple of late and unexpected goals, leaving England defeated, dejected and bereft of any comfort. After 313 years of callous abuse of Scotland, it is the least they deserve.
The disgraceful state of “journalism” in 21st Century Scotland.
Tonight the BBC in Scotland declared that the issue of The Scottish Football Association *possibly* making plans to ban the heading of footballs within childrens’ football is far more important than the one about an English Labour leadership candidate stating that Scots should more or less be beaten & brutalised into submission.
In any other country this would be getting screamed from every outlet possible and the offender left to face the backlash the minging tramp deserves. But instead it has all been ignored and not even mentioned in their headlines report at 6pm. We’re not supposed to insult or threaten them (politicians) but they can get away with what they damn-well please?
Even worse, the SFA story has been on the BBC text service for about 2-days and only now they make it No1 headline “news”.
Just shows the extremely low standards of the racist UK Labour Party too. If that was an SNP candidate you can bet your lot it would be No1 story on *every* outlet. She should be instantly removed from the contest and kicked out. They’d be the first to demand the same of the SNP.
Pure Red Tory Scum!
Clapper57
I don’t blame you for screaming inside. States have a legal duty to protect civil society but it looks like the British Labour party, and British culture in general, doesn’t give a fuck about diversity, equality and justice. That’s because the British political process is fucked-up-beyond-all-recognition, and is incapable of respecting the rule-of-law and the principle of universal human rights.
Let’s get out of Dodge pronto.
Key concepts on ESCRs – What are the obligations of States on economic, social and cultural rights?
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/ESCR/Pages/WhataretheobligationsofStatesonESCR.aspx
@ Stoker @ 6.27pm
Well said Stoker.
On Social media the Lisa Nandy story is huge but once again the state run media suppress this story to those who are , for now, oblivious to it’s happening due to their non online participation….and fake news is supposed to be ALL generated via social media….Hmm…well at least one actually GETS the news via online contributors…. where as the (official MSM Lol) portraying themselves as THE media and who pretend they are the paragons of virtue and truth seekers just ignore i.e. do not report on the news that they do NOT want you, the public, to know about…while highlighting the news they are desperate for you to know…it’s called propaganda.
Very much ….Conspicuous by it’s absence ….but they did have time to show Ian Murray’s Edinburgh launch for HIS Labour deputy leadership campaign…with absolutely no awareness of the timing being BAD…especially Murray stating ( with NO irony) that Labour support all nations in this (Non) Union…..timing is a bitch.
************************
@ CameronB Brodie @ 6.46pm
Also well said my wise friend…as in friend in united cause that is.
Clapper57
Soul brothers. 🙂 Did I take that too far? 😉
@Clapper57 –
Whenever you get down, try remembering the time when Michelle Mone picked up that wee dude in Vietnam.
Works for me anyway!
😉
@manandboy
Democracy in UK = #Shamocracy
Scotland is a supposed equal and valued partner in the UK with a third of the landmass and a larger sea area than our southern neighbour (even with them stealing 6000sq miles by moving the maritime border), yet we are outvoted by 10 to 1.
“But political representation is allocated by population” the Britnats say.
Well how is it that in the 300 of years of The Union the Kingdom of England’s population has grown at a significantly faster rate than the Kingdom of Scotland, with all the economic benefit that process has generated for them.
We have Allstar Jackass as a Secretary of State (not for)
Scotland who belongs to a political party Scotland has rejected for longer than I’ve been alive.
Scotland wanted to remain in the EU but is being dragged out against our will because our equal partner chose to leave off the back of a vote result obtained through various breaches of the electoral process.
It appears Scotland is recognised as a Parliamentary Constituency of the European Parliament for what that might be worth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_(European_Parliament_constituency)
Fairliered
Well done for your support for your MSP, Kenny Gibson, and his moral stance towards protecting biological women from legal harm and physical danger. He’ll probably be too busy to read this, but if he has researchers… 🙂
Gender-ideology and British nationalism are grounded in anti-foundationalist epistemology, which hides the true nature of reality, and provides the conditions for totalitarianism. Anti-foundationalist epistemology insists reality is socially constructed, so has no interest in empirical reality.
Human rights need to be rationally and normative-ly grounded in empirical reality, if they are to be effective and have legal force and effect.
THE RETURN OF THE ETHICAL: HUMAN RIGHTS
FOUNDATIONALISM IN RORTY/ EAGLETON CONTROVERSY
openaccess.bilgi.edu.tr:8080/xmlui/bitstream/handle/11411/614/The%20return%20of%20the%20ethical%20Human%20rights%20foundationalism%20in%20RortyEagleton%20controversy.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
@ CameronB Brodie @ 7.11pm
“Soul brothers. ? Did I take that too far? ?”
Hi Cameron…too far ?…only in as much as I am a Sister Lol but hey I can self ID as a soul ‘brother’….oh FFS don’t get me started on that again.
@ Ian Brotherhood @ 7.16pm
Oh Ian I saw a picture of that on twitter the other day..actually may have been on YOUR Twitter account…that HAS made me laugh..Thank you….oh my God…why in this life do idiots prosper when they are so obviously idiots…probably tried to sell him some of her failed fake tan when she found out he was an ADULT….while she mentally is a still a child…a very very naughty one….think Violet Bott…sorry Lady Violet Bott ( or BOT as in computer generated or computer ( Tory made) GENTRY generated …Lol).
Thank you both so much… you lovely lovely people have a fabby evening…hope ONE day to meet you both at a WOS event .
At least someone somewhere (besides the always-reliable WGD) is still making sense and thinking constructively:
“Magical thinking”, eh? There’s a lot of that around at the moment. Not to mention purposeless (or even purposeful?) negativity.
Worth a read.
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-no-legal-shortcuts-to-independence.html
Does anyone here know what the state of play in the SNP is these days … I’ve been out of the loop for eons.
Back in the day, Conference elected conveners for all the functions of government and National Council debated and voted on whatever the hot topics of the day were.
The Parliamentary groups appointed spokespersons for all those same positions and although they were not bound by the decisions of the rank and file … they would be walking on thin ice if they rode roughshod over them.
What I am asking, is … Are the Party natives getting restless?
Or has twenty odd years of being neutered by Salmond’s gradualist, “civic nationalist” cabal lobotomised the volunteer wing of the organisation completely?
I turn my back for a decade or three, and political science turns to shit. Unconstrained post-structuralism combined with the concept of performative embodiment, is a recipe made in hell. 🙁
Contemporary British constitutionalism does not appear compatible with contemporary political theory. The introduction of anti-foundationalist epistemology into law (see gender-ideology), certainly is not. I am very rust though and in no position to endanger policy, so nothing to worry about if I’m wrong. 😉
https://thenewpolis.com/2019/07/03/politics-and-its-double-deleuze-and-political-ontology-part-1-borna-radnik/
Clapper57
Sorry, soul sista. 😉
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zefKDJB_uoo
Socrates MacSporran at 1006pm,
I have to agree. The SNP really, really need to toughen up their responses to these nonsense statements by England’s lying racist prime minister. As soon as once in a generation is mentioned, then they need to hit back, not go into a technical explanation of statements.
They really need to stop wasting such opportunities.
I truly think none of them have ever had media training.
Maybe Lisa Nandy was just using a figure of speech you know like *once in a generation* because you can say anything you like in England or if you’re English and it’s all perfectly fine and not taken literally like “I’d rather be dead in a ditch” but don’t dare say anything in Scotland because it becomes a set in stone meaningful fact
I remember when Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon said loads of stuff that the English all said meant nothing and they were talking rubbish, oh but except for that though, they definitely were legally meaning it when they said that and we, the English have judged it so which makes it even legaller and more factier and more promisy sounding and any more of your SNP Independence freedom terroristy talk and we’ll send in the troops
Because we your English masters and Lords representing the crown and our soveriegn Queen of England have told you to stop it
OT rant.
Today I found yet another fuckin good bastardin reason for Scotland to get the hell outta the clusterfuck of the twatting union… so we can attempt to forget all the British shite I’ve had to work on.
Today’s clincher was a “Triumph” of engineering design in the form of a TR7 engine.
Some lazy useless cost cutting fuck thought it would be sensible to just try and use half the V8 engine rather than start with a sensible new design based on a 4 cylinder inline layout.
Stage four Tourette’s was reached in short order because the cylinder head cannot be removed in a straightforward manner because the studs holding it on are not all on the same plane because the original V8 design has two heads on either side of the V configuration engine block and engine bay.
Removing the studs is a ridiculous task because they are such a tight fit in the cylinder head, nae cunt ever heard of using a couple of simple dowels to properly orientate two items together rather than using the full length of 10 high tensile steel studs jammed tight due to the inevitable corrosion one gets between two dissimilar metals in an alloy head.
If the dumb fuck does nae ken about dowels I guess the irregular clamping forces on the head gasket caused by using studs at differing angles would be way over their head…
Fuck sake, like every other one of these shitfests of an engine I’ve had the not so joyous experience of working on the studs were a monumental ballache to get out with heat, hammers to shock them loose, and even welding.
Ultimately used two jacks to lift the head enough to get an air hacksaw in to cut the last two studs and get the head off. The two remnants of studs seized in the head will need hydraulically pressed out once I work out a way to support the head on the press to compensate for them not being at 90deg angle to the machined head surfaces.
I don’t have a broad enough vocabulary of swear words to even begin to describe the bizarre waterpump setup on the engine…
It is just absolute utter utter shite but sums up the British car industry and why it met its demise.
By comparison I can drop the entire engine, gearbox, and drivetrain outta a VW Golf in the time it took to do what should be a simple task of removing a cylinder head from an engine that wasn’t even fitted in the car so access to work on it was good.
Unionist parties got more votes or the something or other year was less votes or two apples make and Orange
This constant comparing of different election results over different propositions then comparing them really does get right up my Arse by the opposition to democracy parties
They’re like a sports programme comparing Anthony Joshua’s earnings to Muhammed Ali’s and coming to the conclusion that Joshua is a better boxer because more money is earned by him thus he’s better, what a load of crap on a stick
There’s no evidence they say, then have a vote we say, but there’s no evidence they say until we see that newspaper polls show something different, so the UK governments political position on Scotland is if the newspapers don’t tell us something’s changed then it hasn’t
Not any point in having government or elections at all then, we should just leave it all to the English controlled media and polling companies to run Scotland
@Dan,
read somewhere that in America the farmers are buying up old tractors, pre electronic 70`s – 90`s because they can actually work on them when they break down,
instead of paying a dealer $150 an hour for some fitter to tell you it`s f@cked put it of the road for weeks while they wait on a sensor from China.
Trump just tweeted,
I JUST GOT IMPEACHED FOR MAKING A PERFECT PHONE CALL!
Ah Dr Jim, did you not see the fabulous piece in the Sun today by their columnist Bill Leckie.
By dint of calculation he thinks the SNP speaks for no one because the last GE vote of 45% for the SNP is really only 30% when you multiply by the turnout percentage and thus the SNP vote is diddly squat.
Funny old arithmetic that especially if you applied it to Labour and the Tories in Scotland where the SNP vote was bigger than those two parties combined and three times Labour and two time the Tories.
But hey, Johnson has a humongous majority of MPs whilst in Scotland they don’t.
Time we found an alternative to this non functioning democracy. Now, if the non democrats abusing their assumed power were to feel the popular backlash, then they’d have to hide in bunkers.
Just observing like. Voting doesn’t count.
@ Clapper57 on 16 January, 2020 at 7:07 pm: Gave up Twatter mid-way through last December due to their attempted silencing of Rev but i couldn’t resist any longer due to this Nandy nonsense.
Besides, the Rev’s using his other account now and we need as many voices as possible in as many places as possible for this fight. It’s going to get seriously dirty.
__________
Dan rant @ 8:31 pm: Thanks for that, gave me a good jaw-aching laugh throughout reading it. 🙂
__________
@ Dr Jim on 16 January, 2020 at 8:40 pm: Spot on! Time everyone toughened their responses and stop expecting the BritNat Unionists and their propaganda platforms (media) to play fair. Has several years, at least, of them blatantly crapping & pissing all over Scotland not taught some folk anything about the UK “media”?
“Scottish Government could hold indyref2 WITHOUT Johnson’s permission”
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18166514.scottish-government-hold-indyref2-without-pms-permission/
Sinky wrote on 16 January, 2020 at 10:56 am: “Stoker @ 10.09 you should keep up with Business for Scotland’s efforts and publications on the economy.”
I already do, thanks. The A5-card/booklet production idea i was floating was about getting the info into circulation all over Scotland – through the doors as quite a lot of folk are not on social media or even on the internet.
@ cirsium on 16 January, 2020 at 11:21 am: Thanks for that but see my response to Sinky. I’ve seen those links you posted but thanks again for your efforts.
I run my own wee projects as i got tired of seeing lots of ideas being floated by various indy folk and essentially getting nowhere.
Glad i went that route as i get to plan and deliver everything without worrying about being let down etc. 🙂
Democratic political economy aims to minimise discrepancies in distributional justice. The political economy created by British nationalism, not so much.
Full text.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1467-9248.1995.tb01733.x
O/T
I’ve been thinking about this for while and hopefully it will generate some debate.
Of course there is frustration on the constitutional front but I was thinking in the meantime, while the SNP government is going in the right direction of creating the structures of an independent country with the powers they have for example creating the Scottish National Investment Bank, could they do more radical things that could challenge the British system?
An example of I was thinking was well as the Investment bank, they could create a sort of retail bank that could then in time be built up to a real one that be used to challenge the nonsense that on independence the banks would leave Scotland.
At the moment, the major banks are shrinking their retail network to the point that large parts of Scotland are suffering with not only lack of branch access but also access to physical cash both for private individuals and businesses.
The Scottish government could fill this void by creating an entity within current banking laws like a credit union and act as a form of current account whereby customers can deposit and withdraw money. The SG could work with local government and businesses like the Post office for the bricks and mortar part of this ‘bank’.
Whether this could work in practice is another thing as it is very risky to create and be responsible for the infrastructure of moving cash and coin about the country, not to mention working in regulatory frameworks.
If it could work, it would be great example of the SG doing the ‘day work’ as well as building the infrastructure for an independent Scotland. It would also be popular as many communities throughout Scotland are left high and dry by the various British institutions and inaction of the British government.
What ever the grand plan is I think there is a reason for it to be played out the way it has, like a divorce settlement to make it in favour of one side us! Considering what the British establishment is like, including the like of msm & mi5, its impressive that the grand plan still remains a secret!
Given how close we are to the Brexit date 31st January I think this is crucial as it may cut down WM’s options of retaliation. I have a gut feeling it is to somehow allow us to exit the Union & remain in the EU, don’t know how but here’s hoping whatever it is works, it looks likely to go right down to the wire!
See if they ever let me anywhere near control of a political party. 🙂
dss.ucsd.edu/~gmackie/documents/SchumepetersLeadershipDemocrac.pdf
@Scot Finlayson at 8.52pm
I can well believe that and I’d recommend folk in the market for a used car choose a common and straightforward platform to keep the complexity and running & maintenance costs at reasonable levels.
Big wheels with low profile tyres may look cool to zoomers but with the state of the roads these days smaller wheel diameters with taller profile tyres that give the same overall diameter as the “bling shite” will be more comfortable and compliant on the road.
The whole industry has become a joke with form over function and electronic gizmos galore, and unfortunately the public seem to lap it up quite happy that they are being discreetly extorted.
@Stoker at 9.13pm
At least the jaw aching laugh might temporarily distract from the ever present pain due to banging our heids against the wall in exasperation at watching our well paid elected officials lacklustre performances in rebuking Deficit and OIAG pish…
This has been going on for years. In defensive terms under relentless attack it’s often best to learn to clear one’s lines with a big simple hoof up the park rather than fanny about with a load of jinky pish on one’s own six yard line.
If one has put in the time to be a sensational and skilled wordmonger one may be able to pull off some kind of wizardry against one’s opponents, but if one has ignoring what’s going on and instead been bending one’s mind into the realms of denying biological reality, one may not be able to pull back out of the twilight zone quickly enough to confidently produce utterances of any rational worth.
If the latter is the case one may instead wish to consider emigrating to Fantasy Island.
Dan@8.31
Did you try blowing the tyres up first or turning on the wireless, if not? try that, if that doesn’t work, skelp a good bottle of single malt, when you wake up, the car will still be FKD, but at least you’ll have had some fun, not advisable if driving the next day or you have health issues.
Hi Stoker, We need a coordinated fund raising effort to get the economic case through every door before any Indyref campaign begins.
Meanwhile everyone needs to challenge the supine Scottish Parliament decision to take down the EU flag at Holywood on 31 January.
Scotland voted 2 to 1 in favour of EU membership and as I understand it the flag is not actually an EU flag but European Council flag which UK is not leaving next month
In Scotland everybody demands that Scotland’s FM be all knowing, all doing, psychically aware, compassionate for all, Just, reasonable, and above all she must be able to sing dance take a drink and be able to fight
In England they have a PM who cannae tuck his shirt in, count the amount of illegitimate kids he’s got or complete a whole sentence without making guffing muffling noises
What kind of thick as shite idiots voted for that guy, Ooh I know, the same thick as shite idiots who voted for the American one
*Go compare politician comparison website to switch now*
See if they had one of those I’d put money on folk switching a lot after realising they’d been done, but like the big power companies, who are the demographic who never switch thus keeping them powerful and able to charge what they want, yeah you guessed it
O/T update on my idea several days ago of FM saying to the Queen “support Scotland’s vote to stay in the EU by refusing Royal Assent to the Withdrawal Bill or we’ll get someone who will [eg Harry, anyone?]”.
My MP came back within seconds to say it wouldn’t work…
He is no doubt right given the Queen didn’t even come to Scotland to be crowned and clearly only rates England-as-UK crown – but it would be fun!! And would put the wind up the establishment. Especially with the Harry gambit.
@Sinky 10:06pm
I just learned that the bringing down of the EU flag outside Holyrood wasn’t the parliaments decision it was the *corporate body* who runs the parliament in consultation with the Presiding officer
Apparently not a single MSP of any party was even asked their opinion, so who are these *corporate body* people and how come they have more power than the elected politicians we voted for
The nature of policy would be grounded in critical realism and a respect for diversity, that’s for sure.
Full text.
link
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13698230.2018.1555684
Question.
If the Queen does die, does her succsessor have an automatic right to the Scottish crown, or do the Scottish people have an ancient right to vote for who they would like?
Dr Jim
It seems the “pro EU” Lib Dems had the casting vote in the Corporate Body decision to remove the EU flag from Holyrood on 31 January. Of course our Scotland In Union’s Presiding Officer is happy with this decision.
All wingers need to oppose this betrayal of the democratic decision by Scotland’s voters to remain in the EU.
Petitions to Holyrood do have an effect, apparently – so why not petition to keep the EU flag flying as reminder that 62% of us voted to stay?
Reading that 135,800 EU Nationals have so far applied for either Pre or Full Settled Status in Scotland.
From a quick search (google search results page has gone all weird with some “upgrade”) in 2016 there were 209,000 EU Nationals in Scotland accounting for 3.9% of our population.
There were also 128,000 non UK/EU Nationals also living in Scotland accounting for 2.4% of our population.
I hate lawyers and why not – I could tell you stories; anyway, getting to that era when unfortunate eventualities have to be thought about …
LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT
– so I go down to WH SMITH and get a LAWPACK – great stuff, very useful.
Then I see it : DISSOLUTION OF TREATY
!!!
– ya dancer; bought it, filled it in and submitted to the Sheriff Court. I am now looking for one dealing with COLONIAL REPARATIONS, to put an additional claim for – e.g. 50B barrels of oil and 5Trillion in assorted penalties.
Just call me the father of the nation. But I am out of pocket for £25, so I will have to ask the wingerist community to pony up the dosh for my crowdfunder.
– when I was a kid, I remember on the telly some lawyer historian bigwig say in stentorian tones
“of course, the treaty of union has had its terms -breached- … many, many times …”
– and yet we are still here. Such naive dreams of the 70s, along with flying cars, jetpacks, holidays in space, cures for cancer, scotland winning the world cup.
All law is bollocks unless you can make the other guy obey it; law follows power, its just paperwork.
@Sarah at 10:41 pm
Hud oan, surely some mistake! Why do we need a petition to keep the EU flag flying when I’ve been telt for years that Scotland willnae be taken oot the EU against our will.
If one has put in the time to be a sensational and skilled wordmonger one may be able to pull off some kind of wizardry against one’s opponents, but if one has ignoring what’s going on and instead been bending one’s mind into the realms of denying biological reality, one may not be able to pull back out of the twilight zone quickly enough to confidently produce utterances of any rational worth.
Bravo Dan (10.00)
Bob Mack @ 10.29
While the term “Heirs and Successors” is valid in Scotland then No, no vote is required!
I’ve been arguing for,forever ( it seems ) to get that term OUT of public oaths,in the interests of Scottish Sovereignty.
But more than that…
It has no place in our Scottish Constitution.
If we are to give – The Honours of Scotland – to a Monarch as our Head of State, then it should be … Once again… As with our Government…. Our choice!
If Charlie Windsor is actually as popular as we are all told he is?
Then I have absolutely no problem with him becoming King.
But I will not, and should not, visit that “Rule” on my descendents,or anyone else’s for that matter… I have not that right… Nor do I claim to, or support anyone who does!
Our Constitution should have nae truck with inherited positions.
Let the Children of Scotland choose…
Our Job.. Our Only Job…. Is to enshrine that choice and put it beyond doubt…. We’re no lookin to make our fortunes out of this… 🙂 We’re looking to DO the very best version of, naturally, -Imperfect- Democracy that we can manage.
While No rocket science. Tis as complicated.
But as always…
Aim fur the moon,and ye jist might hit the Stars 🙂
Just stumbled over this:
https://twitter.com/mimosacymru/status/1217399676309209090
“For watchers of Welsh & Scottish #devolution , Welsh and Scots Law, Brexit and the future (or not) of the UK, these observations about Clause 38 in the #WithdrawalAgreementBill in
@SeneddCLA
from
@AMCarwyn
were pretty troubling:”
Carwyn Jones pointing out that this Clause 38 seeks to establish UK parliament as sovereign in law across the whole of the UK. Three clips on the twitter feed worth listening to. ( and worrying about? ….. or potentially breaching the treaty of union? … )
‘Our access to much of the world is through language alone. We only see our tiny sliver of the world with our own eyes, much of the rest of it has to be described in words or shown to us through images. That means it’s very easy to manipulate our perceptions. If you control the flow of information, you can completely alter someone’s understanding of the things that they can’t see first hand’
http://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/01/how-to-avoid-swallowing-war-propaganda
Pre-Trump, Pre -Boris and the Dom, pre Brexit Scotland’s bid for Independence was subject to endless debate and scrutiny, legal consideration and dire warnings of being shut out of the EU whilst under the protectorate of its other bigger, broad shouldered UK Government. Scotland is deemed just a bit too fragile and diminished to be invested in its own potential and take its place on the world stage as a newly independent nation;
‘Conclusions from the legal Opinion indicate that as the remainder of the UK would be the same state as the existing UK with the same international rights and obligations, its EU membership would continue. Crucially, it would continue on existing terms, including all the UK’s current opt-outs (for example, on currency or the rebate)… By contrast, an independent Scottish state would be required to apply and/ or negotiate to become a member of whichever international organisations it wished to join as a new state. In some cases this would be straightforward; in others, notably the EU, it would not. It would not, as the Scottish Government has suggested, be within the gift of the Scottish Parliament or the UK Parliament to decide these matters…
But wait there’s unanticipated gain;
‘Under international law (the NPT), an independent Scottish state would not be recognised as a state entitled to possess a nuclear deterrent. A forthcoming paper in the Scotland analysis programme will examine the specific issues relating to the UK’s current provision of defence and security for all its citizens, and the potential implications of Scottish independence’
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/
uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/79417/
Scotland_analysis_Devolution_and_the_implications_of_Scottish_Independence
Whether we voted for it or not Scotland is subject to the Dom’s ramblings from the WM bunker, a relentless inversion of the truth about the threat of a left of centre alliance and those millions of ‘foreigners’ to the status quo
‘ Tell your family and friends face-to-face: if Boris doesn’t get a majority, then Corbyn and Sturgeon will control the government, their official policy is to give the vote to millions of foreign citizens to cheat their second referendum, we’ll all get screwed on taxes, Parliament will drag the whole country into crisis, and immigration will return to being a central issue in politics instead of being marginalised by Brexit…If MPs get away with cheating the biggest democratic vote in our history, why should they ever respect democratic votes? It’s already hard enough to make them stick to promises without letting them get away with this’
https://dominiccummings.com/2019/11/27/on-the-referendum-34-batsignal-dont-let-corbyn-sturgeon-cheat-a-second-referendum-with-millions-of-foreign-votes/
The British state is collapsing across a number of fronts .Put that on the side of a bus.
It’s not Scotland’s civic nationalism that is worryingly divisive or disruptive. Scotland, the country and nation, voted to retain its outward facing international focus and develop its own agenda of social justice, a very positive 21st modern European identity and move towards democracy, peace and stability.
‘People who are growing poor and desperate turn to hating and dehumanizing and demonizing those even more powerless and disposable than they are — the others and strangers in their societies. In America, it’s Mexicans and Latinos, in India, Muslims, in China, Uighurs, in Britain, Europeans. But the theme and the dynamic is precisely, exactly the same. It’s not a coincidence these countries have all collapsed politically, into various forms of nationalism, authoritarianism, outright fascism, away from democracy, peace, and stability’
https://eand.co/this-is-how-a-civilization-collapses-b3da4e62ed94
Aim fur the moon,and ye jist might hit the Stars
The problem for Scotland at the moment is we were aiming for the stars
And it looks like we’re about to hit the moon.
http://archive.is/TQc1k
Well, here’s to the next generation!
https://twitter.com/YourWullie/status/1217786117841354753
Isn’t it funny how some Labour politicians when they’re out of office like Carwyn Jones immediately agree with the SNP version of democracy when they definitely didn’t agree when they were in office
Even Jack McConnell has been agreeing with Nicola Sturgeon lately
Could it be they now have nothing to fear regarding their positions anymore, which continuing that thought would mean that they did have something to fear before, like their jobs, and like journalists their jobs are more important than their country so they do what they do for money
Meaning these people have no morals or principles until they decide they can financially afford to have them
Mike Cassidy @ 11.54
Aw Mike…. It wull be fine…
The – actual Union was over the day they made the – VOW –
We’re just figuring out how…
Ha Kunia ma ta ta 🙂
@ Dr Jim at 10.16
The members of the Scottish Parliament Corporate Body are:
David Stewart
Andy Wightmnan
Liam McArthur
Sandra White
Ruth Davidson
Ken Macintosh
MSPs every one (unfortunately, in some cases).
Brilliant analysis Rev, debunking Craig Murrays proposal so casually makes me wonder if Mr Murray was serious whilst proposing it?
There will be no referendum, for a few years and if polls don’t change the 45_55 mantra, then never.
Even if Scots get so tired of being on constant standby politically , that they fail to turn up for Holyrood 2021, and the SNP get a majority.
It will still be flawed as the Murrells know that no one turned up, though they WILL for a real vote.
I don’t know if Dominic Cummings is simply a bit thick or simply evil, but that sort of toxic rhetoric is not what I consider measured or appropriate. It is simply not acceptable to be coming from one so close to the PM.
This one should prove instructive as to Westminster’s high-handed attitude towards Scotland.
Structural Racism, Institutional Agency, and Disrespect
digitalcommons.sacredheart.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1090&context=rel_fac
@crazycat 12:27am
So only one SNP and one Green that might have opposed it from a list of 4 Unionists even if they voted for or not with Ken McIntosh having the final Unionist vote I’m guessing
It’s the Smith Commission all over again, what would you like Scotland? ah sorry the three English parties have overuled you
It’s a real misery guts petty thing to do over a bit of cloth that can harm nobody, especially when you consider Scotland is stll benefitting from EU initiatives, and it could engender folk to employ their own pettiness over the Union flag wherever they see it
Not me you understand,definitely not me, I would never ever do a dastardly thing like that personally
Have I said enough to make myself sound not petty
Isn’t it funny how Unionist’s always want to run the country by the result of newspaper polling till it comes to them Polling badly then they say “It’s the peoples votes that count not pollsters”
Labour’s Ian Murray said that exact thing today when he stated “The *country* wants a Labour government that’s what the people are telling me” and not a single newspaper called him a liar, why? because he’s a Unionist so can say whatever he likes
I percentage terms the SNP poll higher than the Tories but that poll doesn’t count, Scotland y’see, different rules for different days and well SNP so terrorists eh
re. Britain’s march towards outright fascism. Here’s one for those who want to understand Brexit’s probable harmful psychological impact on Scotland’s cultural psyche.
Toward a Psychology of Social Change:
A Typology of Social Change
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2017.00397/full
And another one. Folk better pull their socks up fast, as fascism appears all of a sudden, and as if from nowhere.
Dramatic Social Change: A Social Psychological Perspective
https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/14/30
Special Branch “spies” are firmly embedded within the civil service and in the government in Scotland. Their mission being to leak intelligence to Whitehall.
There are also political “sleepers” tasked with disrupting the business of the Scottish government.
The US has plans in place to ensure its nuclear deterrent interests in Scotland are not threatened and the CIA are providing full support to the UK Special Branch.
Signal and human intelligence resources are in place on the internet.
https://caltonjock.com/2019/08/28/will-westminster-proscribe-the-snp-forcing-an-election-in-scotland-returning-the-unionists-to-power-parts-1-5/
@ Dr Jim at 12.51
One from each party in the Parliament* – it has to contain at least 4 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliamentary_Corporate_Body).
*at present – that doesn’t seem to be mandatory, judging by the list of former members, although anyone who has resigned has been replaced by someone form the same party..
And more on why Scotland must break with tradition in order to defend open, civic society, and the potential future that will be available to future generations. Culture is considered one of the core load-bearing columns that support the concept of sustainability. Cultural rights are, subsequently, vital to sustainable approaches to living. Human rights and environmental quality are mutually supportive policy concerns, without a respect for human-rights, the environment suffers and a downward spiral of decline is probable. A state of total social collapse is then quite likely.
https://www.sum.uio.no/english/research/groups/culture-ethics-sustainability/
I hope Scotland will be able to avoid what I think is coming down the road, though I am very, very, rusty. What the hell is Scotland’s judiciary going to do about the current state of constitutional over-reach. Why not poll them, put them on the spot?
Full text.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/nana.12399
Thunk up by Karl Popper, the father of the concept of “open society”, Critical Rationalism is an essential component of a post-colonial word view. However, though considered one of the 20th century’s great philosophers, his personal politics could prove problematic. Most of contemporary academia consider “popular sovereignty”, such as Scotland’s, allegedly, to be the optimum, practical, form of constitutional legal order.
The Paradox of Karl Popper
The great philosopher, renowned for his ferocious attacks on scientific and political dogmatism, could be quite dogmatic
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/the-paradox-of-karl-popper/
And the reason I’m making so much effort. Night, night. 😉
Habermas on the Reciprocity between Liberty and Popular Sovereignty
https://www.patrikschumacher.com/Texts/Habermas%20on%20the%20Reciprocity%20between%20Liberty%20and%20Popular%20Sovereignty.html
Dr Jim says:
16 January, 2020 at 10:10 pm
In Scotland everybody demands that Scotland’s FM be all knowing, all doing, psychically aware, compassionate for all, Just, reasonable, and above all she must be able to sing dance take a drink and be able to fight…
Horseshit Dr Jim.
People are rightfully getting disillusioned because she has done sweet fuck all to prevent Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation and abject humiliation. We had an open goal a mile fucking wide and the SNP have pissed the opportunity up against the wall. Even Northern Ireland has secured a better deal than Scotland. Even the creationists in the DUP secured a better deal than the yellow drips in Holyrood.
Stop Scotland being Brexited against it’s will? Fuckers can’t even keep the EU flag stuck up a pole.
There’s only one thing I want Nicola Sturgeon to do, and it’s not wear a fucking medal.
On the 31st January, the Scottish parliament should be taking down the disgusting, filthy, racist, hateful colonial ‘union jack, and raising either a saltire or another BIGGER EU flag in its place. They should definitely NOT be removing the EU flag.
People say, ‘oh it’s just flags’, but if that were true, their wouldn’t be any anywhere. Flags matter, especially right in front of Scotland’s Parliament, where all Scottish constituencies voted to remain in the EU.
The Scottish government should not let this nonsense pass. Instead they should not just defend the EU flag staying, but demand the odious English colonial ‘union jack’ be taken down. That flag is an insult to any Scot, and should have no place outside Scotland’s parliament, or indeed in Scotland.
Westminster no longer plays by the rules. It is high time the Scottish Government started doing the same. This is just one wee example. They need to stop going along with such london-worshipping, servile, English colonial rule sh*te
I just want to point out, that as of the rejection of a section 30 by England’s racist lying prime minister, the nature of the union between Scotland and England changed. It is now no longer a voluntary union, since Scots are being denied the right to choose.
That is an important change, and above all else, the Scottish Government must not let that pass. Forget referendums or even independence, that change from a voluntary union to one of effective colonial subjugation is what needs fought.
It is an important difference. Scots are no longer ruled by England through choice. Until the section 30 rejection, it could be argued they were. Even Thatcher understood that concept.
Just think… rather than naval gazing about whether or not Scotland can hold its own referendum, in a parallel universe, we “might” have been covering, indeed, “have covered”, the exact same Constitutional principles, only instead of a lame Referendum sometime in the next decade sponsored by the BBC, we “might” have been establishing beyond legal doubt whether Scotland’s Remain Mandate was Constitutionally Sovereign, and/or whether Scotland could have revoked Article 50 unilaterally, and actually stayed in Europe, breaking the back of the Union in the process.
Just think… Rather than naval gazing about whether or not Scotland can hold its own referendum, we might have been lobbying the UN and EU to formally recognise Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty enshrined in the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath, The 1689 Claim of Right to “bolster the position of parliament within the Scottish constitution at the expense of the royal prerogative”, subsequently affirmed by an Act of the Scottish Parliament of 1703 and retained by the Parliament of the United Kingdom after the Acts of Union 1707. Subsequently reaffirmed in the 1989 Claim of Right, a recognition of sovereignty even signed by sworn godammned Unionists like Brown and Darling, and ratified yet again by Westminster in 2018.
If Westminster has been obliged to recognise the sovereignty of Scotland since 1328 Treaty of Northampton / Edinburgh, where the dowager Queen Isabella of England stated that “that Scotland, so defined, “shall belong to our dearest ally and friend, the magnificent prince, Lord Robert, by God’s grace illustrious King of Scotland, and to his heirs and successors, separate in all things from the kingdom of England, whole, free, and undisturbed in perpetuity, without any kind of subjection, service, claim or demand”…
.. then tell me friends, why are we allowing our Constitutional Integrity to be grossly misrepresented, and why is the International Community, the UN, and EU in particular, NOT being required to respect the sovereignty of Scotland at least as a minimum, to the same benchmark as our immediate neighbour.
Why friends is there no challenge or even invitation for the EU to recognise Scotland as the Westminster Government does, and recognise the Claim of Right and Sovereignty of the people of Scotland?
That one concession of proper and appropriate recognition is both a kill switch for Brexit, and in my opinion, would render the UK Union completely untenable, but broken by Westminster’s colonial infidelity, not Scotland’s self defence.
…and lastly.
Don’t wallow in the refuge that these issues have never been tested in law.
Right now, Boris Johnson and the Architects of Brexit are testing these principles to destruction, and Scotland is doing NOTHING.
Good point Robert, that’s the thing, everyone, Europe and the whole world can now see that Scotland is not in a consenting union with England, it is being held captive in a prison by England, and that cannot be unseen.
Like you say no matter what happens moving forward, no one can pretend Scotland is a country anymore. Scotland is now officially a colony of England.
As our ‘good friend’ David Mundell (previous Secretary of State for Scotland) once famously say, Scotland ceased to exist as a country and was absorbed into England as a result of the 1707 Act of union.
All we can now do is either accept that or try our best to save Scotland to give our children a chance of a better life than we have had.
No region in the world can compete in the football World Cup or the Rugby World Cup and all the other world games that take place, Scotland does compete we are a sovereign country which someday hopefully be an independent republic country. We don’t need to prove anything to any other country, the Scottish government have to let the world know what we’ve contributed to the world Scotland not the United Kingdom but Scotland on their own.
Sinky wrote on 16 January, 2020 at 10:06 pm: “We need a coordinated fund raising effort to get the economic case through every door before any Indyref campaign begins.”
I would agree with that but it would have to be fronted, organised and seen through to completion by a reputable body such as Business for Scotland. Associating it with a political party would immediately deter some folk before they even read it. It would have to be 100% accurate without being long-winded. Quoted financial facts laid out properly would be sufficient but at the same time being careful not to cross into territory that can only be determined *after* we take back our self-determination.
Other than this i strongly advocate we all take it upon ourselves to get our own projects, locally focused, up and running. Nobody knows the political layout of an area better than someone who lives there. And a major bonus of this approach is that the BritNat Unionists don’t have a clue what we’re up to until materials start hitting the streets. Better still if individuals got together and organised wee groups to take care of their own areas. Impossible for the Yoons to keep track of us.
Another good reason for doing things this way is people are a bit fed-up of seeing begging bowls (crowdfunders) stuck under their noses. A lot of folk just can’t afford it and others can only afford to stick to their 1 or 2 favourite causes. Although very well meaning there are crowdfunders cropping up left, right & centre for a multitude of causes that are just a pure waste of time and are taking money away from better causes imo. Going locally will allow individuals to focus all their energies, time and money on their own areas for leaflet, booklet, billboard and/or activity campaigns etc etc.
These individuals/groups could also, as part of their remit, help to deliver SNP indy related material whenever the SNP release the material but making sure it’s delivered on completely separate days from their own local materials. Just some thoughts.
One_Scot says:
17 January, 2020 at 8:21 am
All we can now do is either accept that or try our best to save Scotland to give our children a chance of a better life than we have had.
Speak for yourself.
The chains which bind Scotland are a home grown illusion.
If Holyrood is legally constrained by the powers given it by Westminster, then do not bow to Westminster, but instead step outside Holyrood’s straight jacket and rekindle the true Parliament of the Sovereign Scottish Nation OUTSIDE and APART from Holyrood.
There was a comment here, or the previous article maybe, which listed the changes made to the 1707 Act of Union. THERE ARE NONE. It is unaltered since 1707.
***IMPORTANT*** Do not muddle up the 3 separate entities; the Sovereign Constitution of Scotland, the limited (and it seems very limited), constitution of a devolved assembly in Holyrood, (let’s call it an instruction manual rather than a Constitution), and the inferred Constitutional Sovereignty of a colonialist Westminster regime determined to subjugate Scotland.
Scotland’s strength lies in the first. Options 2 and 3 are both contrive and artificial doctrines orchestrated by the British State.
The limits of Scotland Act, Sewel Convention, and devolved power legislation and constraints arguably MIGHT bind the hands of Holyrood, but they do NOT bind Scotland’s hands or restrict our capacity to act as a Constitutionally sovereign Nation sailing under the flag of Option 1.
When people are saying our MP’s must come home from Westminster, it is not a symbolic or ceremonial gesture. It is stepping out from under the umbrella of UK Colonial “Sovereignty”, (they are not sovereign over us), and have our MP’s standing up for Scotland as servants of the Constitutionally Sovereign Scottish people over whom Westminster has absolutely NO power or say.
It is like identity theft. Westminster has stolen our wallet and is claiming to be sovereign over Scotland and able to overrule us. But Scotland has the birth certificate, drivers license, photo ID and corroborative witness to prove that Westminster is NOT sovereign, and CANNOT overturn the will of the sovereign Scottish People. Why we are sitting deaf, dumb and blind as this theft takes place is utterly beyond me.
Ask your MP’s and MSP’s. “Are you loyal to the Sovereign People of Scotland, or the colonial usurper of Sovereignty, Westminster? It is a particularly poignant question to ask our MSP’s, because they are currently acting as if Westminster CAN overrule them, and that is not consistent with the Constitution of Scotland.
Another year of probable hovering and havering has begun; hovering around the status quo and havering about how awful it is.
I am an advocate of the ‘if you want it seize it’ approach, because nothing is ever handed to you on a pretty plate.
Some dramatic event, and I don’t mean pacific popular demonstrations of the day out type, has to be engineered. The system needs to have its dirty hands exposed.
The independence movement in Scotland needs to be ‘bloodied’, to use the landed toryism.
We need political martyrs. Authentic liberation struggles have the potential to offer them, corrupt systems provide the martyr’s crown.
Whatever…..this docile movement needs to be shocked into life.
In fact, perhaps we should test our MSP’s, because if they are sitting in office observing the rule of Westminster as the superior over Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution, then we should act swiftly to impeach this devolved Government with all possible speed, and replace it with a Sovereign Scottish Government.
It is serving the Interests of the UK before the Interests of Scotland, and we must therefore assume that Scotland’s interests have been compromised… such as our exclusion from Brexit Negotiations.
In truth, we should have done this in 2016 when Holyrood set itself above the emphatic Brexit Remain Mandate returned by the sovereign Scottish electorate. We must face the ugly and unpalatable possibility that Holyrood isn’t the Champion of Scotland’s Sovereign Interests, but perhaps it’s greatest hindrance.
I don’t doubt Holyrood’s motives, nor the SNP’s motives, but even the very best intentions can be misguided or blindsided.
Even if you’re persuaded by my arguments, ask yourself this… What is the down side to seeking recognition? Even if Nations said no, we are no worse off than we are, just a leaf in the stream.
The Scottish government seems quite content to sit and play by Westminster rules and games, stir the pot a bit get Joanna Cherry to get a team together start rocking the boat inside Westminster if they don’t like it down there they might throw all the SNP MPs out of Westminster and out of England get back to Scotland you ungrateful sweaties, they’re breaking the Union then.
A few posters on here this morning advocating the setting-up of a “true” Scottish Assembly to properly reflect the views of the sovereign people of Scotland and act against Westminster.
The elephant in that room is the fact, on the only occasion since 1707 when the sovereign people of Scotland were asked to vote between continuing the Union and Independence – the Referendum of 2014 – they chose the Union.
Therefore, whether we like it or not, the chosen will of the sovereign people of Scotland, at the moment, isto remain in the Union.
The easiest way out of that situation is to have another Referendum, but, that Referendum is not withint he gift of either the Scottish Government, or our MPS.
We have to drag Westminster into agreeing to Indyref2 and I feel to do this, we have to fight a guerrilla campaign on their territory, within the House of Commons. Make life so-difficult for the Tories, they will allow Indyref2.
That means, we stop being nice. We disrupt HoC business every day. We make life intolerable within the “best club in London.”
It is asking a lot of our 48 MPs to do this, but, they have to, and they have to be backed-up by Holyrood, absolutely refusing to work for and with the Westminster government.
It’s been rippin ma knittin this weather with all the talk of ‘relative mandates’ and percentages of seats and percentages of the populace at Westminster v Holyrood.
There is one very important thing to remember:
In 2014, around 30% of the overall 84.6% vote, was from non-Party affilliated, non Party voters, non voters – across the divide in Scotland.
We managed around 10% and NO managed around 20% of them*.
At the last Scottish Elections, turnout was around 56% and in 2011 just 50%.
An Indy referendum brought out the non-voters, which was reflected in turnout. Attempting to extrapolate a mandate based on percentage of seats/votes in an election, for any Party ideology, is an aberration. Only asking directly works and Scotland can’t have another again, because the Union thinks it would become patently obvious what the missing 30% in Scotland would say now.
The interesting question is how would standing on a specific Indy ticket in 2021 (effectively a referendum choice) affect turnout and voting for that election? Would it also trigger the turnout of the missing 30%, how would they vote and how would that affect the makeup of the Scottish Parliament in 2021? – The Indyref in 2014 had an 84.6% turnout remember.
The UK GE’s in 2017/2019 were in the region of 66-68% I believe – down on prior baselines of around 70-75% in previous decades – but across the UK, the Brexit referendum turnout was pretty much the same level as a UK GE – Not so in Scotland, where the turnout was lower at about 67%.
The one thing 2014 showed, was that Independence engages more potential voters to turn out than any other issue. We should not forget that and cogitate on its significance then and now. We often lose sight of those who really matter to Independence and that is the disaffected non-voters who will turn out for a referendum in Scotland and swing it. It’s non-voters who need convincing. Who are they and why did they suddenly appear indeed. The tinfoil hats would suggest that is a very, very good question…
*Related to that analysis, is that the baseline, or core cross Party vote, shows that Independence voters have a greater core ‘election’ voter base than Unionist Parties. Their 2014 victory was delivered by non-voters and that was a close run thing.
@Breeks
If a people collectively believe themselves to be a nation what the rest thinks does not matter.
The SNP’s sole raison d’être is the achieving of independence not governing Scotland as a dependency. The current régime is not a substitute for the one pre 1707, it is a simulacrum.
Sturgeon seems more at home with feminist, identitarian and climate matters than independence.
She has created for herself the right profile to strut some NGO runway.
On the evidence, she and her chosen team are not the ones with the vital spark to deliver independence.
Unfortunately, as yet no one has emerged on the Scottish political stage as a potential ‘deliverer’ either. Maybe by looking to politicians and functionaries we are deceived, looking in entirely the wrong direction.
The UK Parliament follows the English constitutional practice: The King of England delegates his supreme sovereignty to the English Parliament to exercise on his behalf.
It was established law that the Crown in Scotland is a limited power subject to the people’s sovereignty.
The Claim of Right 1689 is legal proof that the Crown in Scotland is legally limited, subject to the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.
I find it inexplicable why the Divine Right of Kings (sovereignty of the monarch) principle is accepted in Scotland via UK Parliament, when it is a principle that is AGAINST the law and constitution of Scotland.
———————–
If challenged, the courts in Scotland and the Supreme Court may well rule that UK Parliament is sovereign via monarch in parliament but, if it did, it would reveal the legal establishment is rotten to the core and requires to be replaced by an explicit constitution and legal system that is founded upon the sovereignty of the people, to serve and uphold the rights of the people.
If the legal Establishment of the UK State (including the Scottish Courts) will not recognise Scotland’s ancient and explicit constitution of sovereignty of the people, then that would be worth finding out. It would clarify we have returned to a system of Crown tyranny.
As we speak, the legal system is being reformed by the UK Govt to limit legal challenges to Crown power.
Socrates MacSporran @ 10:08
Yes, the SNP needs to disrupt Westminster business. Making incessant points of order to the Speaker etc. The inevitable charges of obstructing democracy can simply be countered with the reply that obstructing democracy is precisely what Westminster is doing to Scotland.
We have been promised a referendum on Scotlands future in 2020, but is it written anywhere the question is specific to independence?
Just trying to get my head around if it (the question) will be about EFTA membership, and Indy in another (different year) question?
Sorry if I’ve missed it int he blog & comments – been lurking since 2014, and recall the EFTA membership is only open to “sovereign nations”, now that it’s widely accepted Scotland is sovereign, is this possible?
Is this why it is rarely mentioned? the Plan A was smoke & mirrors?
The real problem Scotland has, is thzt for generation after generation politicians representing Scots have allowed England to have control, and alter powers enshrined in the Treaty of Union. Probably done deliberately to water down any residual feeling of Scottish identity.
As such these changes have become accepted fact.
We have to re,establish our rights as a partner nation u der the Act of Union, and soon, or the Westminster steamroller wil! crush them permanently.as evidenced by the privzte members bill currently in the Lords.
Political leaders must now act to firm up our rights under the Act of Union, or move aside.
@ Robert Sneddon – the question and the franchise will be the same as last time, Mike Russell bas said. The framework bill has already been passed. The only thing left is the date.
@Capella, thanks.
Any thoughts on if the indyref2 isn’t possible this year, would it be possible to have a seperate refendum on ETFA?
Looked on the bookies, but cant see anyone offering odds on it.
Wrote it before and i’ll repeat – waiting until the 2021 Holyrood election is a mistake that we will never be able to put right. Westminster/British government is vindictive, foul and corrupt but they are not stupid. Hundreds of years of bending others to their will has not been wasted. Little Scotland, out of Europe, with an alternative government to Holyrood already in place in Edinburgh and with a willing 5th column of British Nationalists in our population, will be overwhelmed. Sure we have lots of well-meaning and intelligent people on the side of independence but it is clear they are not up to the job of making the final push! Hate to be so negative but I live in England and see the people here, just the same as we are, being taken in by this awful government at Westminster and they just won’t see it. I heard one on radio the other day trotting out the same learned propaganda that we “voted against the elite who have ignored us” – then they vote in Tories. My God! What a mess and that’s another reason why Scotland should make it’s move now! But I see no sign of it. Fear for the future of Scotand as a nation and our kids chances!
Stoker @ 9.11 is spot on. Funding it properly needs some serious money but if I win the Lottery I would finance it.
I see Aidan O’Neil QC is arguing in The National that Holyrood has the power to hold the referendum without permission from Boris Johnson.
And can anyone tell me was the out of touch SNP MSP on Sp Corporate body who voted “Unanimously” to remove the Council of Europe flag? We know Andy Wightman also sold the jerseys and the pro EU Lib Dems always put London rule first
Socrates MacSporran,
I’m not sure you can successfully argue that 2014 was the last time the Sovereign People of Scotland expressed their opinion or that 2014 is the only time it counts but I understand where you’re coming from.
Could the Scottish Parliament make voting in HR elections mandatory (just like here in Oz)?
That would certainly help the problem with voter fraud. Fixed number of registered voters and a mandatory turn-out – would be difficult to sneak in ‘ghost’ votes.
Here in Oz you are $$ fined if you don’t vote – as a result massive % voter turn-out. Would then be hard for Unionists to manufacture a boycott with the hope of saying an indy manifesto election is null and void due to low voter turnout. Just a thought….
As unionists at Holyrood manage to get the EU flag removed from the building.
A lawyer thinks our insured is possible.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18166514.scottish-government-hold-indyref2-without-pms-permission/
It is now clear that we are not effectively in a union, it is a de-facto occupation and Scotland is in effect a vassal state were its MP are second class at WM. Not allowed to vote on English matters, whereas English MP’s can now over-rule the elected parliament at Holyrood.
If this is not a rock solid reason to end a so called union then what is?
jfngw
What’s to stop us ending the “union of parliaments” NOW and leaving ending the union completely to a referendum?
That’s the ‘Playschool’ look through the arched/round window graphic at the top.
Ah the innocence of childhood.
Can almost hear Brian Can’t saying ‘what can we see through the barred window Scotland?’
That’s right children, food banks a sea of butcher’s aprons and bleak future as a colony of olde England.
Goodbye till the next time.
Well, apart from the SNP’s slave affair with devolution.
Sandra White SNP MSP is the one who is out of touch with Scottish public opinion and made the vote to remove the EU flag unanimous @Sinky says at 11:40 am
The rest (Red, Yellow and Blue Tories) pretty much true to BritNat form (disappointed by and Andy Wightman MSP voting in favour but then disappointment with votes of the Green MSPs is something I’m getting used to in this Scottish Parliamentary Session!)
https://www.parliament.scot/abouttheparliament/18343.aspx
As with GRA the SNP seem to be misjudging the mood of the electorate 🙁
I also think if they reconsider and allow the EU flag to continue to fly outside the Scottish Parliament it should be flown at half mast to remind folk here and abroad of Scotlands 62% remain vote in 2016!
Robert Sneddon @ 10:43,
The issue of independence has bu**er all to do with international relationships post-indy, so why try to bring in a distraction like EFTA?
Save us from all these irrepressible tangentialists. Dealing with them is like whack-a-mole.
It’s even true of bread-and-butter political issues. They may very well motivate us all for (or against) indy in various ways, but they ultimately have no bearing whatever on the paramount issue: do we want to decide for ourselves, or be ruled over by others who see us merely as possessions?
Divide-and-conquer is the classic BritNat gameplay, so let’s not indulge ourselves in it for our opponents’ sake.
Post-indy, we can freely move on to the brass tacks of building a new country, including democratically deciding on our international allegiances. By recent past experience, that is likely to include becoming a top-table full member of the EU, but if that proves difficult to arrange for any reason, EEA/EFTA is certainly another option. Let’s see.
But first things first. The only issue that matters right now is to take full power into our own hands. Everything else is strictly secondary, and an unhelpful distraction right now.
The quest for ‘gold standard’ referendum, another Edinburgh Agreement, disputable outcome, “legal” … all fine and dandy.
Indyref1 only had its Section 30 and Edinburgh Agreement because the BritNats were 100% confident in the beginning that they would win.
Here’s a simple question ….
If there had been a Yes win in 2014, does anyone actually believe Westminster would have rolled over and agreed to a straightforward dissolution of their union?
IMO They would have argued tooth and nail, they wouldn’t have cooperated, negiotations would have stalled or dragged on indefinitely, a second ref on the ‘final deal’ would have been proposed, they would thrown baskets of spanners into the works!
If the 2014 will of the people was for independence, we would still have had to appeal to the international community and laws. And, IMO, we would still have had to dissolve the union and walk out without the cooperation of London.
Does anyone following events in the last few years think differently?
Republicofscotland @ 12:11,
I would not be at all surprised if a move toward a go-it-alone referendum this year bats the ball back over to BoZo’s side of the court, and forces him further out on a limb.
As for the Scottish Court System, attacks on its treaty-guaranteed independence are not likely to gain any traction here, not least because the standing of the very judges themselves here would be under threat.
BoZo is bluffing, and we can and should call his bluff. He is the empty posturing Wizard of BoZ, and we have our very own Dorothy.
The London Borough of Camden has specially made EU flags flying on it’s offices and in many streets with wording along the lines of “proudly working with our resident EU nationals”.
What does that make us? Pathetic? Maybe.
@JWT at 12.25pm
One ponders if they are misjudging the mood, or deliberately antagonising sections of the Scottish electorate to the point the disgruntled are motivated enough to form a new Scottish pro-Indy party in time for any future Scottish election, whenever that may be…
If AN other Party formed that would mean there is a clear distinction between the SNP and the AN other Party, so they couldn’t be accused of electoral manipulations by being one and the same.
It seems to me there’s a significant gap in the Scottish political market for a Party with sensible and science based policies that the Scots actually want.
The majority of the regional list seats in the Scottish Parliament currently get hoovered up by candidates from English based Parties that are all for the Union.
Those unionist Parties seem to be able to hold similar constitutional views without being accused of being in cahoots with one another, because one of them suffers from chronic IBS that means they occasionally fart out some pish about federalism or shutting the Hoose o’ Lairds.
I would say to the SNP gov., as the song says Freedom just another word for nothing left to lose .So what are you waiting for ???
RepublicofScotland @ 12.11pm
I read the Aidian O’Neil QC paper and while it seemed way more positive that the McCorkindale and Mcharg opinion, it still does not give us a full proof exit strategy via the courts.
I’m tempted to agree with one of the points from McCorkindale and Mcharg that independence will be best achieved politically rather than through the courts (if I’ve understood them correctly).
This is ultimately going to be down to the people of Scotland to make independence happen. We can’t rely on the courts (certainly not courts whose judges can be easily nobbled – e.g. Julian Assange situation etc; UKSC etc). Frankly I don’t think we can trust the courts.
I think we need to start protesting to the Scottish Government insisting they act on the sovereign will of the Scottish people. This ultimately comes down to the Scottish people demanding our sovereign claim of right to both HR and WM. I think Craig Murry is correct in that the SNP should remove our MPs, MEPs into what he describes as a National Assembly and agitate for independence.
But such an action requires people power behind it – maybe it’s time for a ‘Claim of Right’ march in London walking from Buckingham Palace to WM. It would certainly get international coverage.
It requires the Scottish people to strike, blockage (if need be) and just for the bloody fun of it do a ‘sit in’ on Pacific Quay and storm the newsdesk.
I’ve been doing some reading up on the recent independence of the ex USSR states – they all happened due to people power and striking while the ‘beast’ was weak. Sadly we missed that golden opportunity of acting while WM was at its weakest, but surely we’ve still got people power?
Socrates MacSporran says:
17 January, 2020 at 10:08 am
The elephant in that room is the fact, on the only occasion since 1707 when the sovereign people of Scotland were asked to vote between continuing the Union and Independence – the Referendum of 2014 – they chose the Union.
But you miss my point Socrates. A No vote in 2014 was just as sovereign as a YES vote. It was Constitutionally sound because the people of Scotland got what they voted for. What it WASN’T, was an abdication of Sovereignty and the doing of a thing that couldn’t be undone. Scotland voting No could not have been overturned by Westminster any more than Scotland voting YES.
I’ll answer Capella too coz it’s related…
Capella says:
17 January, 2020 at 11:11 am
@ Robert Sneddon – the question and the franchise will be the same as last time, Mike Russell bas said. The framework bill has already been passed. The only thing left is the date.
I think the question is a terrible question, and one which lets the whole flock out the pen. Look at the issues we’ve been dealing with ever since.
There is no necessity for a loaded question about creating a Nation and rolling around in a field of Independence clover. I fully understand it, but we voted No, and thus all those loaded issues about being a Nation and Independence are coming back to haunt us. Since the question was asking whether we should be a Nation, does voting No mean we’re not a nation? Boris Johnson seems to think so, and so does half the SNP apparently. That’s a gift WE gave him! … and it just wasn’t necessary.
A far better question, which would have let loose one sheep, not the whole flock, would have been “Should the Nation of Scotland dissolve the 1707 Treaty of Union with England? Y/N?
Simple, explicit, perfunctory. Job done.
Far from exposing Scotland’s Constitution to ambiguity and uncertainty, and calling Scotland’s Sovereignty into question, the right referendum question might have done the reverse, and nailed Scotland’s boots to the floor with sovereign credentials which were non negotiable.
The only change we require is an end to the Union, not any act of Nation creation. If we vote No, we lose nothing Constitutionally, but merely postpone our deliverance until the day we vote Yes. If we vote YES, we are rid of the Union.
Why load up the question until it reeks of Tartan triumphalism that even moderate Unionists will find even moderately unpalatable? We could have made it much easier for them to vote YES without feeling they were being disloyal. I KNOW we didn’t see it like that, but to a unionist, the question was like cod liver oil.
Furthermore, ask the question about a bland perfunctory dissolution of the Union, and the very question itself becomes an informative process that is more awkward for the BritNat propagandists to manipulate.
Mike Russell is in my opinion making a mistake with the question.
@ Robert Sneddon – referendums are not reserved. The Scottish Government can hold referendums any time it likes.
The Union is reserved. So anything which might change the Union is likely to be challenged by the Presiding Officer as “not competent”.
In fact an ever better questions would be “Should the Kingdom of Scotland dissolve the 1707 Treaty of Union with the Kingdom of England?
@Capella,
thanks, does that mean that Scotland can’t have a treay with England (United Kingdom), and also have membership of other treaties in it’s own right?
I was thinking that we could take some votes from anti EU (political uniun with EU), by having a useful free trade treaty with the EU in our own right.
Counting down the days until 31st to see what happens either way.
best wishes
& Sorry – if not, then what would need to change to allow that to be an option?
As far as I see things, the question is whether Scots would prefer a future that is protected by and from the law. Or do they want to live in a perpetual state of legal invisibility and constitutional vulnerability? If the former, then Scots need to better understand the law and begin to respect its protective potential. If the latter, best of luck as I value my human rights so I’ll be buggering off elsewhere.
Can i take this opportunity to clarify a certain situation please?
THE SCOTGOV DOES *NOT* NEED ANYONE’S *PERMISSION* TO HOLD A
REFERENDUM.
Pro-indy supporters really need to stop using that BritNat mantra. Because it is a deception at best and a bloody down-right lie at worst.
Thank you, rant over, as yous were. Have a great weekend folks.
@ Robert Sneddon – sorry I moved on to the next thread. International treaties are also reserved. The answer to your question is “independence”. That’s the only way of conducting our own foreign and financial affairs without interference.
Here’s an Establishment perspective of constitutional conventions. I mean, this is a well respected legal school and they come out with rubbish like this bizarre conception of the British constitution. Looks like there’s a bit of institutionalised policy creep going on here, I can’t believe they’re teaching them sloppy political ontology. 😉
No wonder the English have an identity problem, if English academia is filling their heads with mince. Just like this gender pish. We are governed by clowns and sophists.
Magna Carta: a charter of English law, dated 1215.
Treaty of Union: founding document of British constitutional law, dated 22 July 1706.
https://blogs.kcl.ac.uk/kslr/?p=101
And a bit more.
The Models of Parliamentary Sovereignty
https://legalresearch.blogs.bris.ac.uk/2017/12/the-models-of-parliamentary-sovereignty/