Place don’t close until they wanna leave
Posted on
October 01, 2017 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
What’s going on in Catalonia today:
This site can’t claim to know enough about Spanish and Catalan politics to have an opinion about whether independence for Catalonia is a good idea or not. All we can say is that democracy is a good idea, and the draconian and extreme attempts of the Spanish government to suppress the referendum – ludicrously under-reported in the UK media, particularly broadcast media – are a terrifying throwback to its fascist past. We very much hope they don’t succeed.
Si
To the People of Catalonia
My thoughts and prayers are with you all today.
May you be safe.
May your voice be heard.
Joy and peace to you all =)
UK media’s been really creepy about Catalonia, with all their usual misinfo, no info dirty tricks. Prog liberal Graun’s front page headlines today, “Catalonia Region riven with tension on eve of referendum day. Madrid is determined to prevent an independence vote it regards as illegal…‘Red belt’ Catalonia’s leftwing veterans distrust separatists… ‘Coup d’etat’ Spanish ambassador to UK attacks referendum.
They just left out vile, from 2014 basically.
The unionist watchword today, both in Spain and Britain, will be “legality.”
The democrats of Catalonia will trump it with “justice.”
Hopefully we will be kept up to date on the voting today, on here if not anywhere else. I trust what I read here. Good luck Catalonia, fortune favours the brave!
Sitting in Cataluna at this moment.
Probably would have been better to get a catalan to explain this rather than an american. Sorry
If the Spanish constitution doesn’t allow democracy to flourish they could change the constitution. Problem solved.
Wishing the Catalan people peace and goodwill today and a happy and prosperous future.
Good luck to the people of Catalonia, I hope that it stays peaceful, but I doubt that that is the intention of the Spanish Government.
It’s never a good idea to try and suppress democracy, sooner or later, it usually bites you on the bahookie. All of the world is watching, well except here. Nothing to see, move on, or total crap in relation to the story.
The UN have spoken out against Spain, so, what about the EU? It’s disgraceful that they haven’t said anything at all. What about their EU citizens rights and protections, do they not count for anything anymore? Come on EU.
Its not just Spain near break up, Independent embraces the fear, of democracy. If democracy does anything, it really exposes how far right reactionary all UK media really is.
link to independent.co.uk
Good morning to you the People of Catalonia ~
Greetings frae yer nearby (aye) neighbour.
Yer citizens are sovereign today.
Hold tight and sing loud.
You ok furan exit poll..
To yer democracy!
Je Suis Si X.
A logical (and possibly defensible) response from a democratic government in Madrid would be to declare the result of a Catalonian referendum to be non-binding because of their insistence that it is unconstitutional. This would reduce the status of the vote to that of an opinion poll.
To declare the vote illegal and forcibly (and expensively) attempt to prevent it taking place is about as undemocratic as can be imagined.
I wish I was hearing this being roundly condemned by governments which claim to be democratic all across Europe, and particularly by the EU itself.
That I am not hearing this may be because MSM is not being very forthcoming in reporting such condemnation or it may be that our European governments are tacitly admitting that democracy is not their political system of choice. Many of us know this to be true, but I don’t recall it being so blatantly and publicly acknowledged before.
I think we all have good reason to be worried about this. Not just in relation to Indyref Scotland, but more widely too.
Concerned individuals may wish to add their support to the pan-European DiEM25 movement or our homegrown ‘Unlock Democracy’ organisation.
Currently watching Sunrise Sky. They have a guy live from one of the polling stations.
“Democracy is everything”.
The crowds in Madrid were singing pro Franco and Nazi songs yesterday.
Good luck Catalonia. Seize your opportunity.
Unlike us in Scotland, where we have an SNP First Minister who regularly pats herself on the back for NOT mentioning independence. If only the SNP had the same fortitude to stand up for Scotland, as the leaders in Catalonia do.
Meanwhile, the SNP Scot Gov sit and watch as Scotland is dragged down the toilet with England and out of the EU, against the clearly and democratically expressed wishes of the people of Scotland. SSSSh! don’t mention the ‘I’ word.
Breaking
Riot police deployed in Barcelona. Helicopters an aw. But loadsa cameras.
An excellent film Phantom Power Films, AGAIN! Thank you =)
Liz Castro, thank you
I found that to be a clear and concise synopsis bringing us up to date on the situation in Catalonia.
The aggression of the Spanish government is alarming and bizarre. And surely not acceptable.
The paucity and tilt of British media coverage speaks volumes. Not good ones.
This, I believe, is one of those moments in our World’s history were the choice is critical and will have a huge impact on the future.
Do leaders of ‘democratic’ nations stay silent for fear of political and economic backlash or do democratic nations step up and speak out for the right of a people to have their voice heard?
What happens now?
I wish Catalonia peace and their voice.
Doors being barricaded by folk wi cameras police trying to seize ballot boxes.
Think it’s a different place from where the guy is live.
Robert Louis. SSSSh.
I have never really been able to grasp this daft notion of ‘banning’ referendums. A referendum is just a very big democratic valid opinion poll. Surely in a democracy, such a thing should NEVER be banned.
You either have democracy or you do not. You cannot pick and choose – something the Labour party and the current Westminster Government should heed. Truly shocked that Labour are not standing shoulder to shoulder with Catalonia and its people.
RT live stream:
link to rt.com
Cactus @ 8.02 am
‘People of Catalonia…Hold tight and sing loud’
Je Suis SI aussi X = )
(How do we say that in iCatalan?)
The popular uprisings in Easr Germany that led to the fall of the Berlin Wall, and in Poland, were enthusiastically and supportively reported by the BBC et al. How different this time.
So on the day when Spain might break up, Graun tories try to keep it all well away from their Scotland region. And who does it best for our imperial masters, a Scot’s ligger.
link to archive.is
Good coverage by Sky News but not BBC
Ghillie at 0818am,
Surely you are not suggesting I do not express my views on the current SNP leadership? Or is my comment about ‘SSSh’ and ‘not mentioning the ‘I’ word’ just very accurate, and touching a raw nerve?
Are only opinions YOU agree with allowed?
Catalonia- your people are sovereign. Not the jackboot Madrid para military
England may fear your independence but Scotland does not.
Gaun yerslel
Sky News showing live coverage of the Catalan Referendum, BBC talking AGAIN about the Invictus Games and how Prince Harry and Union Jackery is good.
Hope today goes well for Catalonia.
Robert Louis — sounds awfie like Colin Alexander and rock. Have any been seen in the same room?
A independence referendum is coming. All down to timing
Let see the Tories and labour infight first.
Ps if the bully boys in Madrid terrorise Catalonia then we all should seriously think of boycotting Madrid and the costa’s and visit Barcelona instead.
Are only opinions YOU agree with allowed?
You have a point though, on the current SNP leadership and Brexit. But look at the Scotland timeline since the Brexit ref. Sturgeon calls for ref2 on England voting Leave a year ago. Within 8 months, tories have called and held their snap GE that takes out much of the “current SNP leadership,” like Salmond and Robertson, as well as handing hardcore yoon tories like Colonel Ruth a massive boost.
There is a clearly a point where the SNP have to decide, that the far bigger, far richer, powerful and aggressive opposition, in England and Scotland, may well just be too powerful to match, face on?
Hey Ghillie x ~
Ah’ve just taken lessons in iCatalanian.
They say:
I liked yer aussi was coooool btw
#Mantingueu-vos-apretat-i-cantem-fort
Anne
Good point, but E Germany and Poland were far away and didn’t involve Scotland becoming independent, so that was OK!
Fergus Green 8.26 am
Thank you for link to RT live stream of events in Catalonia.
Folk standing their ground peacefully while heavily kitted out riot cops look like they just lean and push.
I see quiet courage and strength.
Whatever hollow victory the government of Spain hope to achieve in the short term, it is clear that the people of Catalonia WILL stand their ground.
Sky News had some female eejit guest on this morning reviewing the papers and she mentioned the Catalan Referendum and then said:
“Scotland, Wales the North East of England, where will it all end?”
She actually thinks that Scottish Independence is on a par with some regional democracy in the North East of England.
This is what we are up against folks.
Watching Spanish riot police manhandling people who want to vote in #Catalonia is actually quite sickening #ShameOnYouSpain
In the greater picture of things, one eye will also be on the EU. Courts for Justice and Human Rights were set up in Europe in the aftermath of World War 2 so that persecution and subjugation would never happen again.
If things do turn nasty in Spain …will the powers-that-be within Brussels finally take a stand, or will they turn the other way? If they did the latter, then they have just made a mockery of those values, ethics and morals that the EU was built on.
Europe knows that if Madrid uses force or enforces its draconian laws to subvert the idea of democracy, then Europe’s top leaders, as well as its institutions, will get condemned for all quarters. In this Catalonia referendum, there is no hiding place for them.
Mantingueu-vos apretat i cantem fort
Thank you Cactus! My first Catalan =)
A brilliant place to start!
I hope my next Catalan word can be ‘congratulations’.
And ‘peace and love always’ =)
Does Treeza support the Spanish riot police wrecking the Catalan Polling Stations???
I wonder in Andrew Marr will ask her this morning?
Viva Catalonia . Are not the Catalonians EU citizens . Wheere the fuck are the EU in all this ??? . Millions of Euro’s in damage will be done by those Spanish Police & the costs of treating the injured.
Power to the Catalonian People .
BBC News… Nothing to see here…. Move along…
It will be good to see how long they can downplay the scenes from Catalonia
It’s funny, I have been looking forward to today for some time, but having seen some of the video footage of the Spanish riot police in action I feel physically sick.
BBC news 24 reporting was so one sided this morning by focusing on a demonstration against the vote and speaking to those against it. BBC no stranger to pushing political agendas for the masses of the UK.
Ghillie, they could also say:
Felicitacions!
One_Scot
It must have been what nazi Germany was like 80 years ago. But look at how Britnats and yoons in Scotland, let alone England back the Spanish government.
@Robert Louis
I think I mentioned Independence once but I got away with it. Doh! I did it again!
Will it make Nicola cry?
Awwwe, BBC radio just lost their connection to their live interviewee in Catalonia.. intermittent signal, then gone!
———-
Making your way in the world today takes everything you’ve got.
This place don’t close until they wanna leave.
Cheers!
The Catalan People have played a blinder and Spanish Rule so far has acted just like most thought it would. The large news channels coverage from Countries around the world are acting as expected. The new age of People media will Capture the whole thing. Catalans just hold your nerve.
The comparison with Scotland is clear. We stupidly allowed the British State involvement and they acted accordingly. Next time we cannot let the Despot State get involved.
@ Hamish 8.50 Anybody holidaying in Catalonia should boycot the Spanish businesses ( check shop/business frontage for WHITE REG LICENCE PLATE ) .
Catalan business have a BLUE REG LICENCE PLATE .
Shit. Looks like the Spanish police have fired guns.
Oh Catalonia. Stay strong.
Doesn’t it make a mockery of Scotland whining about having international monitors and observers?
Just remember these people the riot police are forcibly removing from polling stations are trying to vote.
Spain should be thoroughly ashamed of itself, and should properly be the pariah State of Europe and the UN. I agree with you JLT, the EU is under the spotlight just as much as Spain, ..well maybe not quite as much.
The EU is hampered however by the same preconditions as Scotland in 2014, where they could not be involved unless Cameron’s Tory government, the sovereign UK voice, asked them to be involved.
Perhaps the EU needs to reexamine its status in the way it handles Independence seeking movements who cannot by definition engage at the level of a sovereign government.
But today is all about Catalonia…
link to newscatalonia.com
Thanks for putting this on Stu, just shows you the Establishment are everywhere.
We all think we live in an honest democracy, where everyone’s voice matters, but in reality its the opposite.
Honest Democracy brings peace,
Oppression brings War.
Referendum illegal? How can people voting in a democracy be illegal? Or perhaps Spain, like the UK, believes democracy mustn’t be allowed to go too far.
Channel hopping like mad.
Rubber bullets (possibly stun grenades) – on Sky
BBC peaceful ‘heard that some scuffles are breaking out in other areas’ but nothing violent
Sky – somebody (Lord Reynard??) from HoL there to monitor ffs
Hi Cactus, maybe sign off ‘¡Yo soy Sí!’ (Spanish tho, not catalan, so maybe not :))
¡Hoy, bueno suerte,a todos los hombres de Catalunya!
Offskie to Spanish embassy Castle st Edinburgh for 12.
What’s going on in Catalonia could well be a template for how the British government would behave in the event of an unofficial Scottish referendum or UDI.
Anyone else noticed the BBC radio anchors and guests becoming increasingly st-st-stuttery’, flappy and disorientated when talking in reference to independence, They’re SO n-n-negative.
They are just SO annoyingly amateurish, they may even be cherophobic.
Cherophobia was common in many previous no voters.
We have found a cure!… Vote Yes.
Mon the Cool Catalonians!
Cherophobia:
link to en.wikipedia.org
ps. keep an aye on the Wings twitter account.. the posts are fair flying in!
If the EU sits on their hands (they will) after this Spanish state violence then I think a lot of pro-indy people (me included) will change their minds about wanting anything to do with the EU.
Interesting times. Stay strong Catalans…
We all live in a democracy, aye one where as long as you agree with the Establishment it is fine.
I despair that there seems to be certain sorts that are allowed freedom, Kosovo anyone. If you live somewhere that contributes heavily to whichever Establishment is nominally in charge you will find they have all the similar establishments at their back. You notice I do not use the word State. I seriously doubt that is the name for them, do nit forget World Government here in the West consists of the extremely wealthy who come together once a year in Davos. They run the Governments.
Good wishes to all in Catalonia, wish we had half your strength oh and a few less toons.
Just heard GMS manage to lose contact with a live local journalist just as he was about to say something off message. Luckily, they had a pro-Madrid professor to cut to instead.
Yoons, not toons. Blessed Kindle and predictive text.
This day, will go down as the day Catalonia left Spain for good. When the Spanish central Government has its police officers (armed thugs) shooting at people who are trying to peacefully vote in a democracy on the streets of Barcelona, and forcibly breaking into buildings to ilegally steal votes and ballot boxes, then their is no way back.
How does the extreme right wing Francoist prime minister Mariano Rajoy expect Catalonians to agree to Madrid rule, when HIS OWN police thugs are shooting at them in the streets of Barcelona?
And the North British branch of Labour? They are happy with this.
Here is what Mariano Rajoy thinks of democracy; you can vote, but only if you vote for me. Just like Franco, eh?
EU silence says much.
Reports coming in shots fired with rubber bullets…..and I use that term lightly, as it seems these bullets are the size of tennis balls.
I will be supporting the Catalan people outside the Spainish consulate in Edinburgh at 1pm. Hope to see you there.
Independence is an orphan. Nobody wants to support it as almost all major nations fear democracy breaking out in their area. It struck me listening to RT Russia Today that they were giving the SpNish Government aid and comfort but remembered a few regions in Russia would like independence.
It is no use swearing and cursing the noes. Convince them that we should never be fooled again.
The theft of our resources and the insanity of Brexit makes it easier. However the UN and the EU must assert human rights. Democracy or enslavement!
We are watching live as Mariano Rajoy’s fascists terrorise and openly shoot at unarmed people in a democratic vote. The silence from the EU, the United Nations, France, Germany, The Netherlands, Sweden, Italy, Portugal, and of course Westminster is deafening.
In Catalonia as in Scotland, colonial chains wont last much longer.
The Basques also took to the streets in their thousands to support Catalonia.
These old colonial powers are now shaking in their boots, democracy? they cannot allow that!!
The EU? while castigating other countries across the globe for their lack of democracy, they cannot bring themselves to support it when on their own door step.
This will leave the EU tarnished, they are siding with
behind corrupt constitutions designed against democracy, against the people, that will not go down well.
BBC 10 am news gave the tory turds the first 8 minutes then three mins on Catalonia voting showing calm with just the minimum of scuffle.
No mention of rubber bullets fired and the violent scenes seen on SKY earlier.
Back tracked to Catalonia two minutes later with unconfirmed reports of rubber bullets being fired.
Back to SKY or RT news for me.
Trust the BBC, NO Way.
It is a PR disaster for the Spanish state with images of heavy handiness being seen all over the world except the BBC.
Euro news is showing live coverage all day.
Ch 620 on virgin.
Catalinias President just made a speech.
I guess the previous intended peaceful democratic choice was for the People of Catalonia to vote Yes or No to becoming independent or not. An innocent vote.
That now appears to have amazingly magically modernised into…
The Madrid Government vs the People of Catalonia.
Their eventual feat is now sealed.
Si Catalonia… “then you WIN!”
BBC news 24 are showing a programme about “generation z”….16 to 24 year olds and are they misunderstood…!!
Oh look….a big fecking huge squirrel..
Scenes of police brutality coming from Catalonia are a PR disaster for more than the Spanish government.
The misreporting from the BBC and the silence of Labour and all the rest are now PR disasters for ALL the usual creeps.
It is not referendums that are divisive but the choices people make.
Silence in the face of what we are seeing this morning is a choice I will not condone.
Stay strong Catalonia.
The will be the majority of Spain off my travel list then, let’s see how they handle the reduction in tourist revenue next year.
Such a pity – once you get away from the main tourist areas frequented by our British countrymen, it really is a gorgeous country to visit with some lovely people – and all at 1/2 the price of the going rate in the Costas’ resorts.
I’m watching this in absolute horror, my worst fears are being confirmed. These poor people are only trying to vote, they are not offering violence, only trying to make a mark on a piece of paper.
As I said earlier, where are the voices of the EU? These are your citizens being brutalized and denied their democratic rights. Or, does that only work for some and not others.
I had to think hard in our EU ref, and voted remain, but had to hold my nose. I will really have to have a very hard look again at the EU. If you can’t, or won’t, stand up for your citizens, what the hell is the point of you.
I’m so bloody angry about this.
Catalonia vote “derailed” according to Sky news.
Just back from Italy where there was no WIFI but managing to keep up!
Thanks for this Rev. Felt weepy this morning and angry at the treatment of the Catalan people by Spain.
Good coverage by RT and Euronews. Shouts for Majoy to resign.
Had a wee laugh to see Robert Louis still at it. He makes me chuckle!
Euronews reporting Owen Jones criticising Spain, on twitter, but wants Scotland to be denied democracy! Irony klaxon!
Viva Catalonia
Viva Democracy
Viva Independence
F*ck the Fascists
Blai antonio a 76 yrs old retired taxi driver,said on the steps of the school after voting. We give all our money to the (Spanish)government,and get crumbs in return.Does that ring a bell proudscotbuts?.or are you’s still in denial?.
When you’ve got something somebody else doesn’t there’s always someone who wants to take it away from you and even if you achieve equality somebody will still want to be more equal than you
Unfortunately violence works because it achieves the immediate aim and lives long in the memory and the winners of the violence make sure they celebrate “commemorate” that violence to impress the point that they’ll do it again
Flower of Scotland at 1049 am,
You can disagree with my opinions, but don’t insult me. Or is it that just like Rajoy, you think it’s ok to insult me, because you disagree with my views??
Probably done more for Scottish independence in my lifetime than you have, and yes, I’m in the SNP, been to conference many, many times, went to see NS at the Hydro etc, and was posting on newsnet when it started, long before this site started and people like you arrived on the scene.
Think on.
Andrew Marr:
“We will be reporting next week from Glasgow for the SNP Conference where we will have Nicola Sturgeon on, plus Ruth Davidson leader of the Scottish Conservatives Party”
What???
Ex BBC Scotland reporter Davidson is going to be given a platform on the Andrew Marr show to try and wreck the SNP Conference before it has even started.
BBC Bastards one and all.
GRRRRRRRRRRRR fuckin GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Worse than that @Ghillie says at 10:40 am
Silence in the face of what we are seeing this morning (the misreporting from the BBC, the silence of Labour and all the rest) are tacit approval that the people should not be allowed make choices that the Establishment don’t want them to.
BritNat Broadcasting Corporation and BritNat Labour support Fascism plain and simple.
Keep the Red Flag Flying Mr Corbyn? my arse.
Riot police acting like thugs, rubber bullets, elderly people thrown about, bloodied faces.
Looks like Franco has had a remarkable recovery.
Amazing how terrifying a wee x in a box is.
Never mind Brexit, Spain should be escorted to the door as unfit to remain in the EU.
Was the Brits modern template to attack people on the mainland with the police first used during the miners strike?
The hatred I have for BBC Scotland is something that words cannot explain.
To put it simply:
I DETEST THE BASTARDS!!!
Hey fionan x ~
Thanks for another way to say. I went for the computer translation so who knows how it comes out like for real!
———-
Video EVERYTHING in and outside of your polling stations PoC.
Flood your social media with the videos of violence from the aggressors.
Did you see from the Wings twitter feed — other than the other shameful scenes — the auld gent approaching to talk to the armed polisman… he forcibly pushed the auld guy back.. (he could have fallen landing on his head) Video the ID numbers from the back of their ‘riot gear.’ Remember what happened down south.
Be outraged People of the World!
The courage of the Catalan people, particularly the senior politicians who have suffered arrest and serious financial harm is an example to us all.
The deafening silence from the British Nationalist Party’s and our regime broadcaster is shameful.
The Spanish Government will not recover from this.
I also think the EU has suffered serious damage to it credibility.
Good luck to our brother’s and sisters in Catalonia.
BBC news…2 mins ago.
“Why are the Spanish Government taking such a hard line, after all, the British government had a referendum in Scottish on independence”…!!
BBC interviewing itself here…interviewee was europe correspondent, who claimed “it wouldn’t have been Yes anyway”
Rajoy should resign in disgrace. That’s all I have to say about the scenes I’m seeing on Euronews this morning, he’s not fit to govern.
budwiser@11.07,
Its the BBC, stop paying the licence, keep feeding the monster and this is what you get.
@Maureen says: 1 October, 2017 at 7:30 am:
“Hopefully we will be kept up to date on the voting today, on here if not anywhere else. I trust what I read here. Good luck Catalonia, fortune favours the brave!”
Forget the Scottish MSM, Maureen, they either do not report or tell lies. Try this link to Reuters News agency – they are better:-
link to uk.reuters.com
It is, anyway, where the lazy MSM cuts and pastes, almost word for word, the news they choose to publish.
@Street Andrew says: 1 October, 2017 at 8:04 am:
” … I wish I was hearing this being roundly condemned by governments which claim to be democratic all across Europe, and particularly by the EU itself.”
Whoa! Street Andrew, you won’t hear the EU openly speak out against any of their member states for such things are not done due to diplomatic protocols.
See my previous reply to Marie Clark.
Must-see video from Phantom Power. The parallels with Scotland are incredible.
I have a degree of envy for the Catalans, they’ve got their act together and will have their independence. Good-luck to them.
If Scotland is media-conned a second time into voting No, I seriously think I’ll move to Catalunya
@Robert Louis says: 1 October, 2017 at 8:11 am:
Your anti-SNP slip is showing just a little bit too much, Robert Louis. It indicates you are either not really an indy supporter or stupidly impatient. I’m becoming inclined to believe the former.
You can believe it or not but there is only one path that will lead to Scottish independence and that path is via a Scottish Government of the SNP.
You will not get Scottish Independence by a bull at a gate charge against the Westminster Parliament by a Unilateral Declaration of Independence. Nor will you get it from any other political party in or out of the Holyrood parliament.
There is only one legitimate game in town and that is to wait patiently for the Brexit Negotiations to reach their obvious and ultimate conclusion of a Westminster walk out with NO agreement and then, and only then, another referendum.
I remain deeply suspicious of anti-SNP numpties and their declared objectives.
All the old colonial powers cling on to what they can control because the are all bankrupt. They need to try by any means to thwart democracy that may remove their power over repressed people in order to try maintain their resemblance of power.
The world is changing, peoples hopes of real freedom are rising, a high tide is swelling in opposition to these corrupt regimes.
Sooner or later, they will have to adjust to the new reality, kicking, biting and scratching as they try to cling on to their colonial ways, especially regions who have vast assets still to be plundered.
They will get worse and more paranoid as time goes by.
However, eventually, they will have to concede and learn to work with their free neighbours.
I hope we understand how vital it is for Scotland to have sovereign legitimacy established before we hold the next referendum.
Spain, with sovereignty, can arbitrate what is and isn’t legal, and other Nations, which might undoubtedly be horrified by Spains suppression of democracy, are greatly impaired in how they can react. Sovereignty is an absolute condition, but limited by its jurisdiction. Even if Spain surrendered itself to fascist autocracy, it would still be protected by a sovereign jurisdiction which other nations could not violate. There would be protest and condemnation, but no intervention.
With Westminster free to declare UK Parliamentary Sovereignty is ascendant over Scottish Sovereignty, if Westminster declared a Scottish referendum illegal, be in no doubt, that would be the view which prevailed internationally, and other Nations would be obliged to keep their distance, just as right now, other Nations have extremely limited options in what they can do about Spain. I guarantee most comments will express disgust at the heavy handed police, but settle upon respect for the Spanish law, because Catalonia falls under Spains sovereign jurisdiction.
ScotRef, whenever it happens, must be acknowledged beforehand as the vote of a Sovereign Scottish people. (The paradox we have to reconcile is that a sovereign people does not require an Independence referendum to be sovereign).
With Sovereignty made safe, even if we lose the referendum vote, we still win with our sovereign identity crystallised. Scots law is safe, sovereign and dominant. Without making safe our Sovereignty, and placing our faith in democracy alone, we commit the cardinal error of leaving Westminster as our “superior”, with the sovereign capacity to render everything we do illegal.
There are two issues to Scotland Independence, the sovereignty which empowers us, not Westminster, to decide our own fate, and the lesser, almost academic decision itself to become Independent from what is left of the UK.
But our Sovereignty goes much, much, further than that. Because not only does our sovereignty protect our choice to be Independent, it also empowers us to enter sovereign agreements with other Nations. The holding pen status for Scotland mooted way back in the hours and days following the Brexit result was Europe’s invitation addressed to a sovereign Nation yet to make its mind up about being Independent, – but in all other regards, sovereign.
The UK Union is a straight jacket yes, but again, IF WE ARE SOVEREIGN inside that UK straight jacket, then what is there to obstruct us making our own, separate international agreements? We can stay in Europe, as the rUK by ourselves. We could be the British contingent which did not elect to leave Europe, but which only needs urgent tailoring of the UK’s responsibilities to suit Scotland’s smaller capacity, and of course our revised definition as Scotland alone.
We have chuntered on about constitutional debate and draft constitutions for decades, but nothing ever gets resolved and we never seem to reconcile the obvious A,B,C, starting blocks. It is all so aspirational and subjective, but we never get to the nitty gritty realities.
Are Scots sovereign? Yes we are, or no we’re not. Formal ruling required.
If we are sovereign, then Westminster cannot be our sovereign superior. It is a definitive impossibility. Can we start being clear about that please?
If then, it is not ACTUAL Scottish Sovereignty which currently is seconded to Westminster, then what, specifically, is it that Scotland currently DOES concede to Westminster? It is something that very much looks, sounds and smells like sovereignty, but obviously it cannot actually be sovereignty, because that cannot be removed from the people. RIGHT? So what is actually happening “constitutionally”? – and I mean we need to examine that in forensic detail and clarity.
What physically empowers Holyrood? Is it white divine Sovereignty from Westminster? Is it Red Sovereignty from the popular sovereign people of Scotland? Is it an amalgamated pink communal Sovereignty? (How does that even work???) Or is it a raspberry ripple type opportunistic Sovereignty?
Is this “sovereignty on loan” predicament we suffer at the moment a legally binding and contractually competent secondment? Is it proper licence for Westminster to administer Scottish sovereignty but not determine it? Is it proper licence for Westminster to administer Scottish sovereignty AND determine what that is? Why don’t we know?
We Scots as a people have to understand with much greater clarity what our sovereign constitution actually says, what it physically means, precisely how valid and immutable it is, and what has gone wrong between our constitutional sovereignty in principle, and our actual capacity to make decisions that are binding upon ourselves.
By all means, let us get behind the SNP in pushing for a positive YES referendum, but there is more important business afoot to be done first. We need to win the battle of Sovereignty Hill, and have Europe and the UN understand that it is we Scots are in control of Scotland, irrespective of whether we are still part of the United Kingdom, or we have chosen to leave it, or indeed that it is the sister component of the UK which has chosen to leave us.
I know, I know, I know, this is all tiresome pedantry for most of you, but please just listen. It is pedantry, but pedantry which occurs right at the tipping point of the fulcrum. Being sovereign is everything, it is the beginning and the end.
@Robert Louis says: 1 October, 2017 at 8:40 am:
“Surely you are not suggesting I do not express my views on the current SNP leadership?”
Bloody hypocrite! No one has suggested you cannot express your anti-Sturgeon or anti-SNP views, Robert Louis? , Whatever gave you that idiotic idea?
So why are you attempting to claim anyone is?
Yet here you are attempting to prevent others from expressing their views that you are perhaps anti-independence by attempting to undermine the only reasonable hope of Scottish Independence.
Scottish independence is not ever going to be achieved by any political party in Scotland or the UK as they are either all unionists or unelectable in Scotland even if while being unelectable the MSM and Broadcasters give them far more coverage than either their membership or political views merit.
” … is my comment about ‘SSSh’ and ‘not mentioning the ‘I’ word’ just very accurate, and touching a raw nerve?
No! Robert Louis, your comment is just utter pish and utterly stupid besides being counter productive.
Are only opinions YOU agree with allowed?
I repeat, Robert Louis, that no one has suggested you are not allowed to make stupid, unproductive and anti-independence comments but several have expressed views that your comments are anti-Sturgeon, anti-SG and anti-SNP.
While several are attempting to remind you that there really is never going to be any other path to independence other than by the party that has brought us this far already and by attempting to undermine them you make yourself am enemy of the independence movement.
So there you go – continue to express your views by all means but please do stop attempting to prevent others from commenting on your stupidity.
Sovereignty is ALREADY decided.
We ARE sovereign, that does not need “clarified”.
The fact WM acts like they are sovereign over the Scottish People is irrelevent to the FACT that we are indeed, sovereign.
When the time comes, there is only ONE outcome legally, Scots are sovereign, and it is in black and white saying so.
WM knows this.
Not convinced condemning the EU and U.N. at this time is appropriate to be honest.
Events will be addressed AFTER the full story emerges later tonight and tomorrow.
Instant reaction by international bodies is not going to happen, but that is not to say there will be NO action.
If, as reported, the Catalan government declares UDI in the next 48 hrs, it would be completely inappropriate for the EU and U.N. to comment today on the actions of the Spanish Government.
Just how these things work.
If that UDI happens, things will get interesting real quick, as the EU and U.N. will NEED to respond.
Bit early to trash talk the EU in respect of Scotland,we risk falling into a self triggered trap there imo.
@Cactus says: “Yer citizens are sovereign today.”
I think Cactus makes the vital point – the People of Catalan have indeed demonstrated their sovereignty today, by turning out to vote.
Just because a Gov decide to make voting illegal in a particular instance for their own gain, doesn’t make it right!
Liz Rannoch says:
1 October, 2017 at 8:05 am
Currently watching Sunrise Sky. They have a guy live from one of the polling stations.
“Democracy is everything”.
Sickening to think this is happening anywhere – let alone in Europe, in a favourite country, a Democratic country.
Thanks to Wingers for the coverage.
The coming British Nationalist outpouring of support for police tactics in Catalunya will be sickening.
The sunrise sky this morning was a delight which the Spanish state violence clouds. That sunrise was likely thanks to a coming eruption in Bali of volcano Gunung Agung.
Robert Louis@10.57
I’ve been voting SNP for 52 years and have been in the SNP for 42 years.
Although I don’t comment a lot I know who the wee fakes are. Been on this site since maybe 2012.
That’s all.
Theresa May on Marr.
AM was it a mistake calling the General Election?
TM No it’s always good to ask the people.
Pity Marr didn’t have the balls to ask about events in Catalonia or indeed his country of birth.
I am horrified by the Spanish Colonalists brutal actions
Against the Catelonian People and Democracy.
Where are those who would take office and
Excessive monies to claim that they are working
to defenders the peoples of the world?
The EU, the United Nations, the World Media.
All very well paid and all doing nothing to stop this
Travesty of justice again all put down to money before people.
I want the people of Catelonian to know I stand with them and democracy against anyone and any thing.
Can any kind of link be made that we have these posts put on a
Catalonian independence web site.
I”d also like the so called Spanish Government to know
That Holidays there are finished for good, and their produce
Such as oranges, grapes, plums, etc, will no longer be
Purchased if the bear the name of Spain on their packaging.
Spain is dead! Long live Catelonia!
If the Catalonia government declare Independence will Spanish government send in the army. Is this how it would be in Scotland when we hold the new Independence referendum as no matter what the London government will just keep saying “now is not the time”
Have Scottish voters the stomach for the fight ?
Still talking shite stinky pete ?
Not going to happen, sorry bout that.
Scotland is a COUNTRY seeking to end a political union of EQUAL partners.
WM have created an illusion of being in charge of the union, but that is completely fake.
And they know it.
It works while they are bluffing, but when we CALL that bluff by announcing a referendum date, that illusion will crumble.
Yes, they might try delay the Section 30, but when the SG threatens to go ahead without them, and declare the Act of union (and treaties within) in breach if a S30 is denied, WM will fold pretty quickly.
I bet you my house on it.
Absolutely disgusted with the Guardia Civil and the Spanish Government. Absolutely moved by the fortitude of the people of Catalonia.
Spanish Consulate in Edinburgh. Email is cog.edimburgo@maec.es
Folks who wish to express their concerns should email or call.