The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland

Keep the red fists flying

Posted on September 30, 2017 by

Print Friendly

    192 to “Keep the red fists flying”

    1. jimnarlene says:

      Guid yin! The party o pish.

    2. cearc says:

      Taking back Scotland? One punch at a time.

    3. jdman says:

      Hahahahahahahahaha brilliant! 🙂

    4. winifred mccartney says:

      Brilliant – only a party this deluded could turn victory into defeat.

    5. Arthur Martin says:

      A sack of ferrets!
      What individual of sound mind would lend their vote to this bunch of rank amateurs?
      Wake up Scotland, Chris’s cartoon shows them for what they truly are. You’re not voting for Corbyn when you put that X in the box, its this bunch of useless numpties that couldn’t run a ménage let alone a government.

    6. Ken500 says:

      That really brought a much needed laugh. The chaos of the vanities.

      Fighting among themselves when they should be fighting the Tories. The UK Labour Party where do they stand Scotland has been let down for too long by the Cons and other people.

      Illegal wars, financial features and tax evasion. The UK political class. They really should be out, on the grass. While Scotland goes on to pastures new. Just keep on voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. .

    7. Croompenstein says:

      Kezia is off to the right clapping her hands and shouting ‘fight, fight, fight’

    8. John Sellars says:

      Labour there…snatching defeat from the jaws of, er…defeat.

    9. heraldnomore says:

      Neil Oliver to take over as President of National Trust for Scotland.

      Think I’ll be handing my card back, and telling them exactly why.

    10. mike d says:

      Aye liebor,the party who wasted millions under blair trying to introduce identity cards.illegal wars,atos assessments, corporate tax avoidance,,etc,etc. A party who if it were on fire,are not worth p***ing on.

    11. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Aye Right!! Pure Jackie Baillie!!

    12. ShredderIsAlive says:

      Loving it.
      But it feels like Hamish should be in the background, casually watching the chaos with a wee bag of popcorn.

    13. Brian Powell says:


      I canceled my life long membership when the Chairman of NTS used his official position to come out against Independence in 2013.

      I told them the reason: every individual can decide and vote as they want but for the Chairman to use his official post was not acceptable.

    14. Gary45% says:

      Cracking “Toon” Chris,
      There lies the problem with Labour, in reality they have never been united, back stabbing and self interest are the norm,(house of lords shiny, shiny) surprisingly the media apper to be turning on the Tories, and are projecting Corbyn as some sort of messiah!? his battle cry of “We will fix Brexit” or similar shows how clueless he is.
      The Tories made the mess, the Tories clean the mess. then they take the fall for their impending disaster.
      Corbyn claims to be a man of the people, take a deep look and you will find another “Establishment” mouth piece.(like the rest of Labour including the Northern Branch)
      Labour “don’t get it” and never will.

      Establishment Red or Establishment Blue there is no difference.

    15. Bugger (the Panda) says:

      @Brian Powell

      THE National Trust for Scotland is bracing itself for yet another controversy when broadcaster Neil Oliver is appointed as president of Scotland’s largest conservation charity later today.

    16. MajorBlodnok says:

      The Scottish Labour Party – a fathomless bucket of warm ‘Lillian Gish’.

    17. Famous15 says:

      Neil Oliver should stand for leadership of the “Scottish” Labour Party .He has that sneaky snivelling look and would fit right in to talk his fish. BTW cancelled my NT for Scotland membership over ten years ago.

      It is positively pro union even fanatically so. Communities around Scotland should take over NT properties for the benefit of their communities.NT is full of anti Scottish rogues.

    18. Famous15 says:

      Haud oan! Missed it first time round.”Won the election”

      More fish!

    19. Tinto Chiel says:

      Beautifully drawn, Chris, sums it up perfectly.

      I would love to see that on billboards all over Scotland since the BBC *wreathes himself in garlic* is really trying to big up Saint Jeremy to “take back Scotland” (where to? Islington?) at the mo.

      He thinks he’s Che but he’s actually Capt. Mainwaring.

      Could I respectfully, suggest JC’s tie is too well knotted for a sloven like wot he is?

    20. galamcennalath says:

      Excellent cartoon. Although incompetent, Labour are still an election threat to the SNP and therefore Indy.

      No SNP government, no Indy. Simple as that. The Unionists only need to get an anti Indy majority of one at Holyrood to stop ALL PROGRESS for five years.

      As for Wee Oliver, perhaps the NTS should rename themselves the National Trust for Outer England. How can they justify having someone who is openly opposed to democracy in Scotland?

    21. john ferguson says:

      It reminds me of a poem I learned at school, it goes, There once was two cats from Kilkenny who though there was one cat too many, so they fought and they fit and scratched and they bit , and instead of two cats there wasn’t any. Hope I remembered it right.

    22. David Caledonia says:

      The Labour party…… yes a party that has been in labour for a long time, but never delivered lol

    23. louis.b.argyll says:

      winifred mccartney says:7:19 am
      Brilliant – only a party this deluded could turn victory into defeat.

      What victory? Did I miss something?

    24. Footsoldier says:

      Off topic but I have newly learned that Neil Oliver is to be appointed President of the National Trust for Scotland in Dundee today.

      Does NTS really think the appointment of such a divisive character with his independence hating profile to be a good thing? I for one will be reviewing my membership when it comes up for renewal.

      I am not on Facebook but those who are might raise the topic.

    25. One_Scot says:

      Lol, JB only needs to trip and she’s won that fight.

    26. louis.b.argyll says:

      Oliver? Président?

      Away and boil yer heed. The guys a liability to history itself.

    27. Dr Jim says:

      They should be renamed the Kama Sutra party

      They try out every position to see what the people will like most then change it afterwards to the subservient Tory position

      On another note I see Ruth Davidson’s working overtime in that big England to get herself out of the Scotland she loves
      for a seat in that country where she can do the most good

      For herself!

    28. louis.b.argyll says:

      I suppose Neil Oliver is a perfect match for the type of history espoused by the NT.

      History that must be frozen, with no further progress for humanity, in case it’s risky to THE SUPERIORITY of those who have done well from previous oppressions.

      When do we picket their properties?

    29. ronnie anderson says:

      Slabs missed a trick they’ve already made the film Red Dawn lol .

      Chris that toon could have been done with Blood splatters , more the better . Truly Red

    30. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Powell says: 30 September, 2017 at 8:41 am:

      “I canceled my life long membership when the Chairman of NTS used his official position to come out against Independence in 2013.”

      I left long before that, Brian. One of my favourite runs with the campervan was down to St Mary’s Loch via the Grey Mare’s Tail Waterfall and finding that NTS were now charging Scots, who have legal right to roam in Scotland, to park and visit the waterfall.

    31. Craig Macinnes says:

      Just cancelled membership of NTS on learning of the decision to appoint the charlatan Neil Oliver as president of the Trust.

    32. starlaw says:

      With the appointment of Neil Oliver as president of the National Trust for Scotland, will this organisation now be changing its name to The National Trust for South of Orkney.

    33. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Footsoldier Shared on F/Book as soon as i read the piece .

    34. mike cassidy says:

      Who you gonna call?

      Former humanitarian crisis management adviser to the Office of the Caesar!nian Prime Minister

      Henry Bolton.

    35. While we can all enjoy the civil was taking place within the Labour party in Scotland.

      We should never be complacent nor underestimate our unionist opponents, they are deviousness and ruthless,
      As we saw that in this year’s general election when we lost so many good MPs.

      And Corbyn’s Labour under Leonard here in Scotland may very well have the potential to garner sufficient anti SNP votes to damage us in the 2021 Holyrood elections.

      I haven’t forgotten the 1997 general election, when
      voters told me they didn’t trust Blair, but they but
      were still going to vote Labour to get rid of the

    36. Ghillie says:

      Thank you Chris =)

      Thing is, this man Jeremy Corbyn has NEVER impressed me.

      Now his party are behaving every bit as shabby.

    37. galamcennalath says:

      Peter McCulloch says

      sufficient anti SNP votes to damage us in the 2021 Holyrood elections

      I agree completely. The Tories will never expand beyond the core BritNat No Surrender Brigade. On the other hand there is still fluidity between voting SNP and Labour, IMO.

      Folks need to realise that voting Labour will achieve nothing for Scotland, in any way. Voting Labour in Scotland is not an anti Tory vote. Recent history makes that clear.

      Polls say a quarter of Labour voters are YES supporters. We need to get the message across that Labour will not deliver Indy, and if that matters to them, they need to make sure there is an SNP/pro-Indy majority in 2021.

    38. Sinky says:

      Craig Macinnes says:@ 9.53

      Me too. Just shows that the British Establishment still controls large parts of Scottish life despite 10 years of an elected SNP government elected but not fully in charge.

      That other pillar of the British Establishment the BBC again referred to the “Separatists” in Catalan on Radio Scotland 9.30 news this morning.

    39. Capella says:

      Another sellout by The National Trust.
      Was it not NTS who sold their beautiful Adam designed building in Charlotte Square in Edinburgh to a Russian oligarch? They moved to an open plan office in The Gyle?
      Protecting Scotland’s magnificent heritage, not.

    40. Robert Peffers says:

      @Famous15 says: 30 September, 2017 at 9:10 am:


      “It is positively pro union even fanatically so. Communities around Scotland should take over NT properties for the benefit of their communities. NT is full of anti Scottish, rogues. Britnats.

      Their leadership view Scotland as the playground for, the “British”, landed gentry. Their priorities are preserving the hunting, shooting and fishing estates and the country estates of the rich and infamous.

    41. Scott says:

      Anas Sarwar: Next Labour government must take ‘stake in North Sea oil and gas assets’.

      He better have a chat with Gray as he wonders where the money for an oil fund will come from and as the oil will be running out soon according the anti SNP why waste his time.

      Great cartoon as usual

    42. Robert Peffers says:

      Chris, as is usual, whacks a nail on the head. I cannot recall any time in my life when The Labour Party was not at war with itself.

      Rivalries for leadership are healthy if the argument is who is the better leader but unhealthy when the protagonists fight because of widely differing policies. In any case the Labour Party lost all credibility when NuLabour became a reality. NuLabour was indeed Thatcher’s most greatest and most significant achievement.

    43. Grouse Beater says:

      Captain Corbyn searches for the great white whale of Scotland…

      Publication of Catalonia Then, Blade Runner review, and Dyson Car delayed while I recuperate from bout of laryngitis – contracted from keyboard chats, you sods!

      This is ‘Most Read’ by Nick Robinson and his band:

    44. heedtracker says:

      When he becomes prime minister of this shithead union he’ll be 75. Mad old fart doesn’t come close,

      Jezza’s the veep for CND but, he will buy Trident 2 nukes, keep Scotland as England’s nuke missile dump, but he’ll never launch a nuke missile attack, on anyone.

      Jezza’s anti the Lords, scrap it he roars,ed. First thing he did after defeating his blue tory opposition, made Sharmi Chakrabarti a Lordette. The English call Lady Chakrabarti a Labour politician but she has never actually stood for election, anywhere.

      Viewers at home probably have their own JC’s full of it selection.

    45. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Excellent cartoon, I still hope Sarwar wins.

      As for NTS disgraceful decision speaks volumes about the organisation.

    46. Dan Huil says:

      Great stuff from Chris again. Rammy by the Pish-gate.

      A neighbour told me Nigel Farage has just been appointed president of the National Trust of Scotland. I laughed. I checked. I cried.

    47. Proud Cybernat says:

      Scottish Labour – punching above its weight.

      Excellent, Mr Cairns.

    48. Richardinho says:

      ‘A neighbour told me Nigel Farage has just been appointed president of the National Trust of Scotland.’

      LOL, that is some top trolling!

    49. heedtracker says:

      As for NTS disgraceful decision speaks volumes about the organisation.

      Its hardly a surprise is it, that the national trust’s attracted to anti democratic delight like that bbc gimp.

      National Trust is one of the greatest tax dodges ever cooked up by and for our imperial masters. We the sucka tax payer, pays for the upkeep of all these stately homes and castles but we never own them, ever. They’re all owned by the rich that didn’t want to pay their taxes.

      NT didn’t start out that way but after WW2, with an actual Labour government, the rich piled hard into to this great British tax dodge.

      NT get around the fact that the UK rich elite still own National Trust property, with the usual great British bullshit.

      “With more than 300 historic buildings in our care, from the grand and imposing to the small and quirky, you’re spoilt for choice when planning a visit”

    50. Fireproofjim says:

      Anas Sarwar talks of setting up an oil fund and taking a stake in the oil industry.
      Another long standing SNP policy stolen by SLAB and simply a lie. They have had forty years of massive oil production to do this and, like the Tories, have simply blown the lot -almost £500 billion vanished into the U.K. Treasury without a penny saved for future generations.
      When the history of (definitely not) Scottish oil is written it will be seen as the biggest financial scandal in our history, ruining the prospects of future generations.
      As for Neil Oliver becoming president of the NTS, I urge everyone to email the NTS expressing their displeasure that a man who describes Independence for his own country as “cancerous” is considered a fit person for the post. I have already done so.
      I’m grumpy today, but in a good cause.

    51. Robert Kerr says:


      Ben Madigan has a good critique on the Irish border problem. Well worth a perusal.

      Thanks Ben.

    52. Wish i was a member of National trust so i could tell them to GET TAE F#CK with the appointment of that grave robbing lickspittle unionist gimp,

      might actually join so i can tell them to GET TAE F#CK with the appointment of that grave robbing lickspittle unionist gimp,

      a link to today`s NTS AGM (beware contains Tory`s by the dozen)

    53. Artyhetty says:

      Ha ha, fantastic, the portrayal of Baillie is superb!

      So Neil Oliver, non historian has the top job at NT in Scotland. What the heck are his qualifications for the job! Why is it that the wrong people land the high paid jobs in Scotland. Daft question I know, it’s reward for services to the UKGov and for shitting on Scotland from a very great height. Gits.

    54. heedtracker says:

      If Spain breaks up, whatever will the red and blue tory gimp network in Scotland make of it all. BBC’s got a total blackout on it all, so far.

      Be fun to see Pacific Quay attack propaganda not reporting Scotland anything from Catalonia, ever ever again:D

    55. liz says:

      Ha Ha. Sums that bunch up perfectly.

      Reporting shortbread yesterday pulling out all of the stops, SNP bad to detract from #pishgate.

      As for the NTS, perhaps we should lobby our MSPs to look into this quango

    56. Proud Cybernat says:

      Here’s the NTS ‘Contact Us’ page.

      Get them telt, peeps.

    57. artyhetty says:


      I didn’t quite understand Winifred’s comment either, I can only guess she meant, ‘defeat into victory’. Labour are incapable of ‘victory’. Their collective delusion knows no bounds. It’s quite worrying really, and seeing so many on twitter, in England who think Labour are the bees knees, their saviour from Tory rule. The delusions are catching.

      Let’s hope that the people of Scotland can shake them off once and for all! Achoo!!

    58. galamcennalath says:

      Labour hinting at staying in the EU single market. IF there is a GE and Labour might well win.

      Thought. I assume it’s still a red line issue for the Scottish Goverment that Scotland stay in the single market.

      With the Tories, that seems highly unlikely. Transition for two years, or whatever, doesn’t change the long term outcome.

      So, with the Tories, IndyRef2 should happen. With a GE and election, it might not.

    59. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      So Neil Oliver (Bone Picker, Hair Flicker and Hater of self determination for Scotland) is President of the National Trust for Scotland.

      NTS = BritNat Trust for Land Bank Tax Dodgers in Scotland.

      Treat this BritNat Organisation in the same way as the BritNAt Broadcasting Corporation.

      Do not pay them.

      Cancel your membership.

      Make it clear you are cancelling your membership as a direct result of this partisan political appointment.

      The message to all businesses operating in Scotland should be loud and clear:

      “If you support the BritNat Agenda rather than the best interests of Scotland’s people you will be boycotted financially”.

      We are now in the end game and it is two minutes to midnight for the Union.

      “You are either a British Nationalist or a Scottish Nationalist”

    60. Street Andrew says:

      The Corbyn and the Corbynites are fine South of the border. South Britain needs them and the new deal they are offering; not that they’ll be able to implement it all, but enough to change the political landscape perhaps – ‘the new centre ground’ as Corbyn calls it.

      Chris’s toon would work just as well, in a South Brit context, if it was populated by May and her cabinet fighting like rats in a sack. (And it’s an opaque sack they can’t see out of.)

      What he (Corbyn) doesn’t seem to understand is that Scotland (even as part of the Union) is in a very real sense another country. He has nothing to gain by sticking his neb into Scottish affairs and quite a lot to lose.

      Scottish Labour perfidy (ooh! that’s a nice word I’ll use it again – Perfidy) cost Corbyn the GE. The Brighton conference could have been the governing party conference. And it wouldn’t have changed the indy prospect one way or t’other.

      As ever Labour has to wait in the wings for the Tories to self-destruct and become a government by default.

    61. heedtracker says:

      Proud Cybernat says:
      30 September, 2017 at 12:12 pm
      Here’s the NTS ‘Contact Us’ page.

      Scotland’s just got a lot of very yoon hard core tories in charge. Look at the sudden name switch to Queen Elizabeth Hospital, which costs a hundred grand too.

      You can bet they were pumping up the pressure to rename Queensferry Bridge, but gave in to it, with the word Queen in there.

      Even on a low level creepy as fcuk UKOK tory cronyism, Aberdeen uni gave BBC Scotland gimp Eleanor Bradford their top PR job, but this chancer made her name destroying the reputation of Scottish health care, on BBC Scotland news.

      Head of Aberdeen uni’s on more than four hundred grand a year too.

      Or, tories beget tories.

    62. HandandShrimp says:

      As far as I can see the Tories are not far behind on the self destruct button.

      As for Oliver, I thought he had left Scotland, a small beautiful country of 5 million, for New Zealand where he didn’t have to put up with notions of being independent and being able to run things yourself….or some other stunning example of cognitive dissonance.

    63. Andy-B says:

      Brilliant Chris, Corbyn has found his level, overseeing “Pishgate.”

      Sticker off the car, no more donations or subscriptions to NTS. As long as the wannabe fake historian Oliver remains with them.

    64. Proud Cybernat says:

      When you need to go…

    65. heedtracker says:

      As for Oliver, I thought he had left Scotland, a small beautiful country of 5 million,

      Scotland is NOT small. Look at Catalonia on the map. That is small.

      Scotland is a big country.

    66. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Hope you’ve emailed them too @Andy-B says at 12:42 pm?

      “Sticker off the car, no more donations or subscriptions to NTS. As long as the wannabe fake historian Oliver remains with them.”

      NTS ‘Contact Us’ page.

    67. Andy-B says:

      “Proud Cybernat says:
      30 September, 2017 at 12:12 pm
      Here’s the NTS ‘Contact Us’ page.

      Get them telt, peeps.”

      Proud Cybernat.

      Message sent, I told them I was disgusted by the appointment of Neil Oliver.

    68. Brian Powell says:

      When Oliver went to New Zealand he got an invitation from the SNP branch there. It may be a coincidence but he then left for Australia.

    69. heedtracker says:

      Get them telt, peeps.”

      Which category or box do we tick though?

      There’s no box for complaining to NTS on their hiring a tory roaster, as their new President, yet.

      Its a lot like CND and their veep, Jezza Corbyn, pro UKOK nuke missiles, just not anywhere the best bits of teamGB, England.

    70. Chick McGregor says:

      History is written by the victors never the victims.

      But victims can become the eventual victors.

      Let Iven Loriel have his temporary reward for services rendered.

    71. Andy-B says:


      NHS England concerned over lack of A&E staff this winter. Officials say to many people spent their last hours dying in the corridors of English A&E’s last winter.

    72. Capella says:

      It was also the NTS which trademarked the name “Glencoe” and tried to prevent a small business from selling outdoor jackets called Glencoe.
      They’ve probably trademarked “Culloden” as well. Poor rendition of the issues of Culloden and the building is ghastly. Who runs that outfit?

    73. galamcennalath says:

      The thing really gets to me is the denial and hypocrisy of the legions of über nationalists Scotland has lined up to oppose our democratic fight to pursue self determination.

      Like Corbyn referring to the “regions and nations of England”. Not a slip. That’s the way he and millions of others born and brought up in the south of England think. Everything revolves around their vision of England, sometimes known as ‘Britain’. He doesn’t want just his England, he wants all the surrounding nations to be dragged along behind. Imperialist blood and soil nationalism of the worst kind. What other explanation is there?

      Then Oliver who spews bitterness and bile at his ‘fellow’ Scots for daring to wish for a better future. What’s his alternative? Remaining in the undemocratic clutches of Westminster? He too is an advocate of the Greater England model for these Isles.

      And then there are the Tories. All of them. They seem to take it as a given that democratic mandates, referendum winning promises, devolution settlements, democratically expressed wishes, are all irrelevant where Scotland is concerned.

      It’s all raw Anglo-British nationalism and it’s targeted squarely at keeping Scotland as if it were theirs to keep.

      But none will be honest and admit their nationalism? Nope. The ‘Brits’ don’t do nationalism. Utter hypocrisy.

    74. Breeks says:

      Robert Kerr says:
      30 September, 2017 at 11:45 am

      Ben Madigan has a good critique on the Irish border problem. Well worth a perusal.

      Thanks Ben.”…..

      I agree, but I also get the sinking feeling Scotland is going to be caught flat footed.

      Ireland is essentially offering NI a sovereign peg inside the EU members cloakroom to hang its coat on. Scotland has to get its act together and think outside the box, because without a sovereign Scotland / EU interface, there will be no sovereign peg for Scotland to hang its coat on.

      Talk of special arrangements can be nothing but speculation and conjecture until Scotland can write its own cheques, and put a sovereign signature on a treaty. For Scotland, I fear Brexit is going to be all or nothing, and playing for a soft Brexit is ultimately not going to work.

    75. Street Andrew says:

      heedtracker says:
      30 September, 2017 at 12:45 pm

      [……]…Scotland is a big country.

      Don’t exaggerate. Scotland is a middle sized country. In area and population size.

      Nothing wrong with that. Remember the Goldilocks principle.

    76. TheWasp says:

      I’ve just been over to NTS and got them telt in no uncertain terms

    77. Robert Kerr says:

      Aye Breeks, The Republic of Ireland has a vested interest in the Six Counties and “Peace in Our Time”

      Interesting podcast in the Irish Times discussing Brexit and WW2 with Robert Harris and his latest book “Munich”


    78. heedtracker says:

      Don’t exaggerate. Scotland is a middle sized country. In area and population size.

      Nothing wrong with that. Remember the Goldilocks principle.

      No I dont know the Goldilocks principle on Scotland’s size. Scotland is a big country, its huge really compared to all the rest of the countries that make up the EU.

      One of the great triumphs of britnat propaganda has been to convince Scots that their country is a small one.

      How long do you think it takes to drive from Carlisle to John o Groats alone. Then ferry across to Orkney, up to Shetland?

      Most Scots know far more about Magaluf today than they do about say, Hoy or

      Scotland’s an English middle and upper middle class play ground and boy do they all know how big and beautiful their Scotland region really is.

      Actually one of the many ways BBC gimps troll Scots is their UKOK weather map. Its fair enough, BBC national weather map makes Scotland look withered and shrivelled, from London. But beeb Scotland gimps do it to, with their pissy little Scotland map.

      Just for once it would be great to see just how vast Scotland really is, from that fake BBC Scotland gimp weather satellite, from north of Shetland, not south of Bristol.

      Never happen. Shysters don’t do interesting, certainly not the smirking shysters in Pacific Quay.

      Is that it, did I get it, is that your goldilocks thingee:D

    79. Robert Graham says:

      Bit o/t
      Very obliging of the BBC giving UKIP a platform on their national news channel.

      Ulterior motives ? Not the BBC Surely .

      How many MPs do this party have to warrant such coverage ? .

      Some organisation up to mischief.

    80. The Milner says:

      We had the bizarre spectacle this week of a SLAB political broadcast wherein Jezza, quite rightly, laid the blame for austerity at the door of the Tory government whilst the likes of Baillie and Sarwar continued to blame the SNP for the same. Shambles is Labour’s default position.

    81. artyhetty says:

      galamcennalath@1.55 and Breeks@2.12pm

      Both comments very poignant. How the heck can it be just that NI would get to stay in the single market, yet Scotland not. It can’t be allowed to happen, just how on earth could that even work?

      I fear for Scotland. If out of the EU, and single market etc, while shackled to England, with no human rights act, the Britnats will lay waste to Scotland they really will.

      Are we hearing anything from EU27 re Scotland? Are they keeping quiet now, quite fancy some fishing grounds and cheap oil etc? Sensing sinister stuff below the surface, but that is probably just too negative.

      SNP, please keep asking pertinent questions of UKOKgov all the time, and the branch of London Labour at Holyrood, they can only answer with the truth, or more big fat lies. People can see through lies, eventually.

    82. artyhetty says:


      Yes indeed, Scotland has vast swathes of land, and the exhibition at the Botanics Edin about the ‘flow country’, Scotland’s amazing peatlands, shows just how vast Scotland is in fact. The exhib is heading to Glasgow soon btw, do see it everyone, well worth it. I was thinking heading up there and looked at a map, wow, even quite a distance from Inverness! It’s doable without a car and nice train journey, but not fast. Don’t think I could do it in a day for sure.

      Scotland has been made to look and feel small for centuries, but the theives who stole the land know how freaking big it is! They are not happy about the Scotgov’s land reform plans either, wonder why.

    83. heedtracker says:

      artyhetty says:
      30 September, 2017 at 2:59 pm

      Lets not forget Scotland’s vast Atlantic oceanic territories too, let alone Scotland’s North Sea, despite Labour chopping off a southern bit for England to keep, with its huge oil and gas fields.

      There’s a huge NATO war game going on right, in Scotland’s Atlantic ocean territory right now.

      Very odd the Royal Navy calling it, off Scotland though:D

    84. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT Just had a disturbing conversation with an SNP /Nicola Sturgeon hater – she hates’em!

      She informed me that they ( the SNP) are having police and nurses uniforms labelled – externally I presume – in Gaelic .

      She heard this on the radio can anyone confirm or deny ?

    85. Andy-B says:

      Meanwhile Spanish police flood into Catalonia and close at least half of the 2,315 schools in the region, in an attempt to thwart people voting tomorrow.

      Spanish police have been ordered to remove anyone attempting to enter the schools to vote tomorrow.

      I think it’s going to get ugly tomorrow.

    86. ben madigan says:

      @artyhetty who asked “How the heck can it be just that NI would get to stay in the single market, yet Scotland not. It can’t be allowed to happen, just how on earth could that even work?”

      It will happen (if the UK accepts the proposal after EU parliament ratification) because the NI and Scottish devolution settlements are quite different.

      NI’s is supported by an International treaty which cannot be broken by Westminster.

      Furthermore people who are born in NI have the right to hold irish passports so at least 50% of the population constitute a large pool of EU citizens that cannot be abandoned.

      As co-guarantor of the Good friday Agreement and signatory of the international treaty i mentioned above the irish government has a duty of care to irish citizens living in NI.

      The irish government, as an independent republic takes its place in all the EU institutions and can make its voice heard.

      I replied to someone on the previous thread that I had not seen anything about Scotland in the proposal.
      This is probably because Scotland’s voice is not officially involved in any of the EU discussions on policy etc because it is part of the UK and therefore subordinate to Westminster.

      The EU only negotiates with offical governments – hence its refusal to support catalonia, though it may well recognize independence if it happens tomorrow.

      It’s hard to see a way round this dilemma for Scotland – unlike NI it cannot appeal to the irish Government for official support in the EU. The Irish Seanad’s reception for FM Sturgeon when she made a big speech there some months ago shows the support is there but i cannot see how it can be officialised.

      This is by no means to say the EU does not appreciate Scotland’s position. It would most probably recognise Scotland’s independence were it also to happen tomorrow and welcome its taking its rightful place among the nations of Europe!

      I share your fears for Scotland if we don’t have a successful Indyref2 before Brexit day in 2019.

      I think I read somewhere (though I may be mistaken) that the SNP is inclined to have a short, sharp campaign. That may be a valid strategy but in my view YES groups and other focussed groups like Women, Business and pensioners for independence should start work soon in preparing the ground for the campaign

      PS Thanks to everyone who appreciated my post

    87. Robert Graham says:

      Definitely o/t –
      A whole series of unconnected dots, their significance as yet not apparent .

      We have the continued persistence of the BBC to in some way to try and link and entangle the SNP administration in the Grenfell tragedy , they have been at it for weeks now .

      Then we suddenly have Labour asking urgent questions regarding the failure to forward information by a department in Glasgow city council to relevant parties, Fire , police, Scottish government etc .other words people who could possibly set the publics and residents minds at rest and avert further concern for their safety .
      Then we have the SNP head of the same council having to intervene to extract the information and get these people’s arses in gear .

      I wonder who the departments staff are actually answerable to, is it the people of Glasgow or the previous Labour administration , ? I think the SNP councillors in this and every other council where Labour once had the freedom to do exactly what they wanted without question , and who probably employed the self same staff, The SNP councillors maybe have to have a internal audit and ascertain if there is another administrations operating under the radar, Labour has been in control of so much and so many councils it is inconceivable the staff employed are neutral and maybe harbour some degree of wilful obstruction to anything the SNP want to enact or change.

    88. Dr Jim says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      Those evil SNP eh they’ll be stamping SNP child on our childrens heads in indelible ink next

      Never heard a word about uniform changes though, and one would think if that were likely the various governing bodies of these organisations would be the ones deciding that and not the government, so no I kinda don’t think so

      Or we’d be hearing the BBC screaming without even putting on our tellys, sounds like a case of gripey Yoon grump makey uppy propaganda to stir up the hate fest

    89. Capella says:

      Good post from Craig Murray on states that have beome independent in his lifetime i.e. most of them:

      In virtually every case, it was – almost by definition – illegal at the start of the process for the country to break away. All of the most famous liberation campaigners did jail time. Within the European Union, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia did not obtain Independence by a process negotiated from the start with the Soviet Union. The actions which initiated their Independence were illegal.

      So it is a meaningless truism to say that it is illegal for Catalonia to hold a referendum on Independence. The idea that the right to self-determination of a people can be alienated by pre-existing constitutional arrangements, is rejected by international law. It is truly pathetic to see the Establishment throughout Europe hiding behind the miniscule fig leaf of the Spanish Constitutional Court to state that Catalonia cannot secede, and therefore the gross repression in train by the Spanish government is legitimate.

    90. Gary45% says:

      The two “Quality?” candidates for the Northern Branch were loitering in Inverness High Street today.
      There’s more sighting of Nessie than quality unionists up here.

    91. Breeks says:

      ben madigan says:
      30 September, 2017 at 3:34 pm

      “….NI’s is supported by an International treaty which cannot be broken by Westminster.”…

      Hit the nail on the head-

      No sovereignty, no Nation, no Nation, no inter-NATIONAL treaties.

      We have to take command of our sovereignty, treat the Act of Union as an Inter-national Treaty, and demand, (whether we stay in or out U.K.), that Scotland is properly respected a sovereign nation, and thus stays in the EU or leaves the EU by our own sovereign volition, not at the behest of another Nation with no mandate to govern us attempting to subjugate both our sovereignty and our democracy.

      But we confuse ourselves with our sovereignty, or more accurately, the Union likes us confused about our sovereignty. If we delegate our sovereignty to Westminster, then the thing we delegate is no longer sovereignty, but becomes something else. We turn something which cannot be overruled into something which can, and by definition, that is not sovereignty.

      At best/worst what we are doing is some kind of de facto, quasi-licensing of our sovereignty to permit Westminster the latitude to simply ignore the sovereignty of Scotland, but such an arrangement has no constitutional integrity, no legal competence, no formally binding conventions or defined parameters, and can present nothing to challenge the integrity and precedent of Scotland’s inalienable and absolute sovereignty, except 300 years of established convention and our befuddled acceptance.

      It is time to end this 300 years of subjugation by guile, and refocus our attention on the sacrosanct principles of our sovereignty, what can be done with it, and more importantly what cannot be done with it.

    92. heedtracker says:

      Capella says:
      30 September, 2017 at 4:01 pm
      Good post from Craig Murray on states that have beome independent in his lifetime i.e. most of them:

      All of the Catalonia secession is fascinating and comparing it all to Scotland is also interesting.

      Yet Scotland’s progress towards independence, since 1997 is far more revolutionary. Its just that people tend to shy away from revolutions. SNP seem to have grasped that and are doing it anyway, just really slowly, then quickly, then slowly again.

      My Slovene girlfriend used to regularly make the UKOK point, that Scotland has simply ceased to exist, but that Scotland does actually exist, but she says Scotland has never been an EU member state, ever, and also, Scotland has always shared sovereignty with England and that’s great, so shut up.

      Just trying to make any sense of that, when 500 English MP’s/900 Lords dictate everything big to their shared Scotland sovereign region, is also revolutionary.

      My Slovene girlfriend’s now gone on to become an unelected/able Scottish MSP where he now calls for impeachment of Alex Salmond, for the indy White paper.

      Its is very UKOK mad out there.

      Adam Tomkins MSP?Verified account @ProfTomkins Sep 27

      Very good by @KennyFarq. I’ve seen more anti English sentiment in legal than in political circles in Scotland

    93. jdman says:

      I was at the Caird Hall today to watch the “coronation” of King Oliver the turd
      subsequently I went this to the nice chap who asked me to email him with our decision to quit the NTS as he “would be only too happy to pass our reason onto the board.

      I spoke to you at the registration desk in the Caird Hall,
      and it with great regret I and my wife will be resigning from the NTS of which we have been members for many years, but when the organisation thought it appropriate to elect Neil Oliver to the post of president then we felt unable to continue to support the NTS while he is president!

      Neil Olivers’s behaviour before and after the Scottish independence referendum in 2014 was quite frankly beyond the Pale, and it surprised both of us to find he was selected to be the next president,

      Let me give you an example of what that man thinks of half of this country, many of whom I have no doubt are or should I say WERE NTS members!

      BBC presenter Neil Oliver sparks outrage with vitriolic …
      THE historian and BBC presenter Neil Oliver has been met with derision after describing independence as a “dead dog”.

      I hope NTS is pleased with itself!
      If anyone else feels the need to let the lovely Mr Clint Merrington in on exatly WHY they will be resigning from National Trust Scotland
      his email address is cmerrington [at] nts [dot] co [dot] uk

      please dont be rude to him he’s actually a very nice man, I I think he privately agreed with me.

    94. heedtracker says:

      please dont be rude to him he’s actually a very nice man, I I think he privately agreed with me.

      So who exactly gave a vicious little creep like Oliver the top job then?

    95. jdman says:

      He was proposed by the resigning president, the registration guy was way down the totem pole.

    96. galamcennalath says:

      artyhetty says:

      How the heck can it be just that NI would get to stay in the single market, yet Scotland not.

      Everything I’ve read suggests the EU will only accept a Brexit outcome where NI stays in the single market. The Irish Rep will insist, and the other 26 will back it up. No one in Ireland asked for Brexit so the problem of how NI interfaces with the rest of the UK will be the UK’s problem.

      This may provoke a falling out with the DUP, then everything is up in the air.

      However, as you point out, if NI can stay in the single market, why not Scotland?

      I hope it’s a Scottish Government red line. We’ll see.

      I’ve always thought there were three Brexit outcomes – forget it, what the EU want, and the UK walking away to a hard Isolated future.

      So, what do the EU want? If they insist on NI in the single market, then that sets a precedent. I’m guessing a Norway model would suit the EU best. Trade continues, UK continues to contribute, no needs for transition or protracted trade talks. In theory Brexit happens, in practice the relationship remains close.

      [ IndyRef2 and Indy don’t happen if it plays out this way. The Union is saved for a while. ]

      What do the Tories and the Establishment really what? We’ll know this when they eventually stop arguing over it, or time expires and it’s hard by default.

    97. HandandShrimp says:


      What did your strange contact think was going to happen. That the nurses’ tops would say NHS Caesar! instead of NHS Scotland?

      I think the world may come to an end if that happened… a change which I think may actually be unlikely.

      Yoons get worked up about some strange stuff. 🙂

    98. Ottomanboi says:

      The outcome of the Catalan referendum is likely to be yes. And the Scottish reponse? Aye right!
      The national movement does need a complete rethink. The British state is little different in spirit from the Spanish one, the methodology alone being more subtle, ie devious. The conceit that there is some Scottish exceptionalism in this matter is fatuous. If we want independence we will have to seize it over the bodies of the likes of Davidson and Sarwar, Leonard and Oliver and the rest of the unionist stooges. To paraphrase Henrik Ibsen, if you go fighting for independence, do not wear your best trousers.

    99. yesindyref2 says:

      Pretendy historian appointed president of the NTS.

      Sounds about right, frankly.

    100. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 16:43:

      This may provoke a falling out with the DUP, then everything is up in the air.

      However, as you point out, if NI can stay in the single market, why not Scotland?

      That’s the essence of it in those two sentences.

      The DUP are the only Brexiteers in Ireland, so are they going to cave in to exactly what they voted against, or have another of their famous reactionary strops?

      As to your second point, it should waken people up here to the realities if NI gets to have a privileged status thanks to the efforts of the (sovereign) Irish Republic yet we are merely told to get back in our box.

      Other than the special case of the Irish border issue, I don’t believe the EU has any “view” whatever on what the future trading position of the UK should be, “Norway model” or anything else. Barnier has made clear on several occasions that it is the UKGov’s wish to leave, so it is up to the UKGov to propose a solution for everything

      In any case, further questions of trade must wait until the UKGov can sort out what it even proposes for the pre-trade issues, not least the ongoing status of EU citizens here. And it’s having a hard enough time even managing that!

      As I said to Ben in a previous thread, you couldn’t make any of this up!

    101. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ottomanboi @ 17:10,

      Please watch your words (and not for the first time, I seem to recall). Inflammatory talk of “bodies” is most definitely not helpful. Neither here nor in Calalonia.

      Such wild talk only assists those who wish to mischaracterise independence supporters as swivel-eyed extremists.

    102. BJ says:


      I emailed them today and said very politely that it would stick in my craw if I made any more donations to NTS as any monies I give may support this man and his opinions of Scotland.

    103. galamcennalath says:

      Robert J. Sutherland says:

      you couldn’t make any of this up


      And it’s all Cameron’s fault. He allowed an option on the ballot paper of his referendum for which there was no outline, no prospectus, no proposal, no plan, no pre negotiation … just a vague Leave the EU.

      What utter stupidity and incompetence! The debate which has been going on for over a year about what ‘Leave the EU’ actually means, should have been thrashed out BEFORE the referendum.

      But then Corbyn has been just as bad. In the recent GE, each party had an opportunity to put their individual Brexit plans to the electorate. Corbyn buried his head in the mud, and May said “trust me”.

      Epic shite storm.

    104. Robert Kerr says:

      The outgoing President of the NTS is

      Jamie, 16th Earl Of Lindsay. I wonder if he is a Tory? Just speculating.

      Out of interest be aware that the President of the RSPB is one Miranda Krestovnikoff, yet another personality ex BBC “Coast” programme.

    105. Hamish100 says:

      Is apolitical.

      What crap. Look at the list of Lord ladies dames and earls all linked with the lib Dems, episcopalian church, Tories and Labour.
      Another Britnat appointed.
      I love Scotland but I will now cancel my 12 month subscription.

    106. jdman says:

      BJ @5.42
      the more of us who do that the more likely we’ll get rid of that little slug!

    107. Andy MacNicol says:

      O/t I know , but this thread seems to have been hijacked anyway. My email to the NTS:

      I have recently retired and now find I have the time to enjoy and explore our beautiful country. I have planned many days out and tours to take in all the sights that, until now, I have only read about. Many of the places I had intended to visit are owned by the NTS and to support you in your work, and to gain further information on your properties before I visit, I had intended to join the NTS.
      However, the announcement that Neil Oliver is to head your organisation has given me cause to think again. To appoint a person who has shown so little regard for his fellow Scots and their democratic rights to such a high profile position perhaps shows me that you do not share the same standards and respect for our wonderful country. Somebody who interprets ethnic cleansing as an opportunity for improvement through emigration does not deserve to be given any position in an organisation tasked with preserving the rich history of our country.
      I therefore will not be joining the NTS, and will be revising my tours and days out to ensure that I will not be giving any support to a body which rewards behaviour and attitudes such as his.

    108. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s a double act, one with some ingration abd apparently “sensible” points, the other with talk of bodies, blood on the carpet, then they both join in. Not surprising it’s stepped up a bit, with the excellent publicity Nick Robinson has give WIngs, attempts to discredit Wings, and drag in inncoent Wingers are bound to increase.

    109. Ottomanboi says:

      @Robert J Sutherland
      I shall not be censored by you.
      I’m no snowflake.
      Suggest you examine the system we are up against.
      It has no problem with ‘bodies’, mostly the very dead variety.
      Really is time Scots ‘grew up’. .

    110. Robert Peffers says:

      @Proud Cybernat says: 30 September, 2017 at 11:21 am

      “Scottish Labour – punching above its weight.”

      I believe some of them are actually still, “Waiting above its punch”.

    111. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 17:44,

      And on top of all that, the EURef was formally advisory!

      Since of course turned into “the voice of the people” by whom, exactly?

      Yet if the SG ever dare to propose an advisory referendum on independence, that would be “unrepresentative” and “must be boycotted”.

      The sheer hypocrisy of the BritNat mentality is oft-times unsufferable.

    112. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ottomanboi @ 18:20,

      I grew up a long time ago. You clearly still have some way to go.

      (Unless your evident need for a body count was intentional, of course. Agent provocateur 101.)

    113. Wullie says:

      Aye The NTS as they say. Did you enjoy your English experience.

    114. Ottomanboi says:

      @Robert J Sutherland
      I’m no ‘agent’. The feeling that the system is ‘besting’ us is v irritating. More muscle is surely needed.
      ‘Bodies’ is a figurative but potent image. We should not shun putting ourselves on the front line in this face off. The people we’re up against have a long history of subversion, destabilization and what they call ‘black propaganda’. actually ‘they’ invented it.

    115. uno mas says:

      I live in Spain in a medium size tourist resort town in the Communidad de Valencia.

      I have been out and about for most of the day and at some point in the afternoon I began to realise that there was something missing from the busy streets something that´s normally as thick as flies on treacle.

      Later in the day I spent about one hour sitting at a bar (in the interest of research) beside one of the busiest intersection/traffic islands in the town, still didn´t see any.

      There is a complete absence of Guardia Civil at the present in my wee town four hours south of Barcelona.

      I have a very bad feeling about what´s going to occur in Catalonia on Sunday.

      I have lived in Spain for a good number of years and have studied the history and politics of this seemingly permanently troubled country extensively and to be honest the Independence for Catalonia issue is a fight I don´t have a dog in.

      However the assault on the basic and fundamental right to hold a vote in a democracy is to say the least alarming and extremely worrying for all movements worldwide who hope to achieve self determination for their own nation/community.

      People of Catalonia may your god be with you on Sunday.

    116. mike d says:

      N O a brit Nat yoon awarded presidency of a brit nat organisation. Seems par for the course, Scots just love having their noses rubbed in the ordure. Any other country this little sh*t would have been run out of dodge.

    117. Robert Peffers says:

      @heedtracker says: 30 September, 2017 at 3:30 pm:

      @artyhetty says: 30 September, 2017 at 2:59 pm:

      ” … Lets not forget Scotland’s vast Atlantic oceanic territories too, let alone Scotland’s North Sea, despite Labour chopping off a southern bit for England to keep, with its huge oil and gas fields.”

      I read today a text News Item headlined, “Bid to protect Antarctic UK Territory”.

      A quick Google also threw up:-

      Now I have a vague memory of reading that in fact this claimed, “Antarctic UK Territory”, is legally Scottish Territory although Westminster claims it was mistakenly credited as Scottish when there was talk about the territory probably being rich in oil & gas deposits.

      Here are some cited links:-

      Far as Westminster goes what is ours is theirs and what is theirs is their own.

    118. mike d says:

      Agree with breeks at 4.15pm. ENGLAND HAVE NO MANDATE TO GOVERN US.

    119. Andy-B says:

      Today, in Madrid, people singing Franco’s anthem and doing the Nazi salute. Utterly disgusting.

      Reminds of the hate filled Britnats in George Sq,on Sept 19th 2014.

    120. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert Peffers 19:12 I seem to remember they changed their alleged ownership of Antarctica to the UK just before our referendum.

    121. Ottomanboi says:

      @mike d
      Scotland is ineluctably heading for a replay of Glasgow 1919. This system understands only one thing….ref. Ireland, India, Egypt, Kenya, Cyprus……
      100 years later the outcome will be very different.
      Visca Catalunya lliure! . Fada buan Caesar! saor!

    122. Rock says:

      Robert Peffers,

      “@Brian Powell says: 30 September, 2017 at 8:41 am:

      “I canceled my life long membership when the Chairman of NTS used his official position to come out against Independence in 2013.”

      I left long before that, Brian.”

      I thought you were a lifelong SNP supporter?

      Was the SNP not good enough for you when you were a Labour member?

      On this blog you vehemently attack anyone who dares find fault with the SNP.

    123. Rock says:

      Peter McCulloch,

      “We should never be complacent nor underestimate our unionist opponents, they are deviousness and ruthless,
      As we saw that in this year’s general election when we lost so many good MPs.”

      Rock (10th August 2014 – “Dear Alistair”):

      “I have been saying for a long time: Do not underestimate the British establishment. They are NOT clowns or muppets, even if that is the impression they give.

      Don’t laugh at them, be very afraid of them – they will do absolutely anything to prevent Scotland from becoming independent.

      If there is one thing in the world that needs to be ‘stone dead’, it is the British establishment.

      Hopefully, the people of Scotland will succeed in giving the British establishment by far the biggest blow they ever got.”

      Unfortunately, the majority of people of Scotland bottled it in 2014.

      And then Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      Admit it or not, Scotland is as far away from independence as ever.

    124. yesindyref2 says:

      Good grief, who let John Wyndham in?

      It’s like the Day of the Triffids all over again.

    125. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ottomanboi @ 18:47,

      You’re very slippery with words there, fella. That’s my whole point. In my experience, the people who had the most experience of real bodies were the least likely to use such language, and in inverse proportion to the quantity encountered.

      The same goes for other dubious phrases like “more muscle”.

      If your impatience drives you to encourage hotheads to start a real armed insurrection, come out with it straight and we at least know where you stand.

      If it’s all merely figurative, it’s empty rhetoric that convinces no-one.

      Either way, it brings this site into disrepute. I would have thought you would care about that.

    126. Ottomanboi says:

      @Robert J Sutherland
      New generation, new ideas.
      You had your chance.

    127. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Good luck to Catalonia I hope the Spanish regime do not resort to violence.

      Meantime in England the UKIP have now gotten a leader who is not mad and very much a member of the establishment, worrying.

    128. galamcennalath says:

      scottieDog says:

      Good article by WGD in the national. Couldn’t agree more..

      Definitely. I too agree completely with what is said …

      ” Wee Ginger Dug: I voted SNP because they promised me indyref2 … they must deliver it BEFORE 2021 “

      Also ….

      ” … they failed to explain to the people of Scotland why Scotland needs another referendum … they failed to enthuse and engage with independence supporters and Yes voters and get them out to the polling stations … they tried to back off from the idea of independence “

      Yes, we vote SNP to achieve Indy. They have a mandate. IndyRef2 must happen before 2021.

    129. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      Yes, it was missed out by mmistake in the Reserved powers, therefore not reserved. Corrected in the 2012 Scotland Act

      “11 Antarctica
      (1) In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the 1998 Act, under Head L (miscellaneous) at the end insert—
      “L7. Antarctica
      Regulation of activities in Antarctica.
      “Antarctica” has the meaning given by section 1 of the Antarctic Act 1994.”
      (2) The provision inserted by subsection (1) is to be regarded as having been included in Schedule 5 to the 1998 Act since the day on which that Schedule came into force.”

      which therefore goes in the 1998 act after:

      “L6. Outer space
      Section L6.
      Regulation of activities in outer space. ”

      Kind of funny really, but no real choice for the SG but to agree with it. Scotland would still get 1/12th rights to any UK rights in the Antarctic.

    130. yesindyref2 says:

      Most people would know about Scott and Shackleton in the Discovery. Few might know about the Scotia and William Speirs Bruce, which I guess could give Scotland and Argentina a joint claim in the Antarctic. The broad shoulders of the UK refused to finance the trip as they had their own, but it went ahead anyway, ultimately running out of money and getting supplies and more help from Argentina. Not a lot of people know that.

      Another suppression of Scottish history.

    131. Ottomanboi says:

      Scotland is in the ‘received view’ as integrally a part of the British state as Catalonia is part of Spain.
      The unionists in both states are determined to prevent ‘secession’ and significant loss of prestige. For the UK brexit has raised the prestige stakes
      In Spain opposition is in your face, in the UK it’s more insidious, devious and sinister.

    132. yesindyref2 says:

      Sounds like a confession to me.

    133. Rock says:


      ” Wee Ginger Dug: I voted SNP because they promised me indyref2 … they must deliver it BEFORE 2021 “

      Also ….

      ” … they failed to explain to the people of Scotland why Scotland needs another referendum … they failed to enthuse and engage with independence supporters and Yes voters and get them out to the polling stations … they tried to back off from the idea of independence “

      Rock (28th June – “Slight reprise”):

      “The UK will have a “snap” Brexit while we are caught napping with no legislation in place for an independence referendum.”

    134. heedtracker says:

      In Spain opposition is in your face, in the UK it’s more insidious, devious and sinister.

      Its also very buffoonish.

      Can you for the life of you think why just enough Scots think Scotland is better run by an English upper class like BJ here?

    135. heedtracker says:

      Don’t laugh at them, be very afraid of them – they will do absolutely anything to prevent Scotland from becoming independent.

      What an idiot you are Rock. Or a relatively clever troll.

    136. Rock says:


      “in the UK it’s more insidious, devious and sinister.”

      As has always been the case.

      Pompous clueless armchair pundits posting here write them off as clowns or muppets.

      What they don’t realise is that those same clowns or muppets succeeded in bringing about the fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%, a loss of half a million voters and 23 MPs, at the last election held in Scotland.

      Next time it could well be the loss of more SNP MPs and MSP’s.

    137. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Dorothy Devine 3.32 It was Police cars (poleis) to be put on them , nothing about uniforms of either Police or Nurses .

    138. heedtracker says:

      Do these YESers in Catalonia look very afraid Rock, you strange creepy chappie:D

      No they do not.

      I guess on balance its sleazebag yoons like you Rock that also make contemporary Scottish democracy or at least the blocks to it all, quite interesting. Although it all be would a lot MORE interesting after indy too.

    139. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Ottomanboi @ 20:18,


      Just like the rest of your empty pseudo-revolutionary pish, Citizen Smith.

    140. heedtracker says:

      Great letter to National disTrust Scotland, for Oliver’s presidency. Posted on Facebook.

      To the Board of Trustees

      I am shocked, angry and disappointed to learn of your appointment of Neil Oliver as President of the NTS

      Mr Oliver is a political activist for British Nationalism as you must be aware and also a vitriolic, abusive and scathing person when speaking on matters of independence and anyone supporting self-determination

      He does not put forward positive analysis for staying under Westminster control, but simply attacks all those of us who support YES, calling the 2014 referendum a “hate-fest” and any second referendum a “cancerous presence”, (Sunday Times 2016) his personal attacks on some SNP politicians nothing to do with positive debate and his hatred for independence incomprehensible

      You will no doubt be aware of Mr Oliver’s public and published political activism for you will have carefully researched his character before appointment

      From a personal point of view I will never renew my membership, nor visit any more NTS properties which is unfortunate for myself and my partner as we had reached the stage where we both have the time and money to travel across Scotland. Nor will I volunteer again, the St Kilda work party I went on in 2015 was a once-in-a-lifetime experience and I can say our resident archaeologist Kevin Grant knows more about the history of Scotland than Mr Oliver, who is not qualified in History nor is he an historian

      His description of the Highland Clearances as a migration on BBC TV was awful

      From a business point of view the NTS has firmly nailed it’s colours to the pro-union, NO side and against independence which of course means half of Scots are not welcome to visit your estate

      Since all overseas visitors coming to Scotland live in independent nations, many gaining independence from Westminster such as USA, India etc, some will question why you support colonialism and might reconsider patronising your organisation

      A particular concern must be for all your staff and volunteers who support self-determination and YES (I personally know several) now seeing a British Nationalist President (BNP – ironic) as the figurehead of the charity. Why would they continue?

      You recently bullied a small Scottish Company over the “Glencoe” name, using our membership cash to fund lawyers against them

      The public backlash in that matter was nothing compared to how Scots – and others further afield – will react to the politicisation of the NTS charity

      yours faithfully

      Douglas Young

      Ex member, ex supporter, ex volunteer

    141. Rock says:


      “What an idiot you are Rock. Or a relatively clever troll.”

      You are perfectly entitled to your views, Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend.

      But if you quote someone, could use not use quotation marks?

    142. heedtracker says:

      His description of the Highland Clearances as a migration on BBC TV was awful

      That’s a good point. Oliver recently did a big BBC history blockbuster series thing about the Celts of Europe.

      In all of it Oliver never once mentioned Celtic Scotland, not a peep, from the new President of the National Trust Scotland.

      Which is probably exactly why he got the job.

    143. Robert Kerr says:

      Interesting times tomorrow.

      Tory Conference in Manchester. Demos? Arrests?

      Catalan referendum. Result? Arrests?

      Will the delectable Laura Kuenssberg have armed bodyguards in Manchester?

    144. heedtracker says:

      But if you quote someone, could use not use quotation marks?

      No. Its because I am so afraid Rock of the British state, like you said I should be.

    145. Rock says:


      “Do these YESers in Catalonia look very afraid Rock, you strange creepy chappie:D”

      Where did I mention Catalonia, Guardian reader with a Slovene (ex?)girlfriend.?

      Did you notice the date I had made that comment?

    146. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s a plant, see, a triffid, an alien plant, geddit?

      Kind of similar to a Midwich Cuckoo in the nest 🙂

    147. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      It’s funny, but do I detect a pattern here? Every time there is a thread showing up Labour for the pretence that it is, before long it becomes infested by a gaggle of the usual suspects, who always want to talk about something else, anything else. Preferably empty waffle, but the more contentious the empty waffle the better.

      “The Squirrel Brigade”, I am starting to call them…

    148. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ronnie , thanks – the lady with whom I spoke was somewhat incensed as she had heard this on the radio .

      I must admit her vitriolic fulminating disturbed a fine day.

    149. The grave robbers first act as President of NTS will be to take down all the Scottish Saltires of our historical buildings and put up massive butchers aprons,

      as President he has the power to change to a pro Union script all the historical literature at NTS properties and also a pro Union speech by tour guides,

      the NTS in electing the grave robber have just stuck two fingers up to any true Scottish patriot,

      NTS is now not fit for purpose and should be abolished and a new pro Scottish organisation given the funding to look after Scotlands historic buildings.

    150. heedtracker says:

      Nicola Sturgeon?Verified account

      This ‘Boris as Foreign Secretary’ joke really isn’t funny anymore (if it ever was).

      Our next Prime Minister though, unless…

    151. Nana says:

      BREAKING: Two Scottish referendum observers detained by Spanish police in Reus.

    152. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re the Nazi Trust (as some of my friends on Arran call them) it is ludicrous that in Scotland we have two organisation NTS and Historic Scotland tasked with looking after similar areas.
      I have checked on Wikipedia (I know ) and there is no mention of any Scots Government funding or input to the NTS. Why then do they get ownership of large swathes of Scotland. For example on Arran after the death of the local laird Brodick Castle and the surrounding landscape including Glen Rosa and Goatfell were taken on by NTS Scotland in Lieu of Death Duties! It would seem to me that the people of Scotland should be able to claim title back. Therefore I would suggest that once Independent Historic Scotland and NTS Scotland should be merged and Nationalised.
      Re BBC news tonight, they are mentioning Catalonia , and managed to find a demo by No voters, funny that.

    153. Old Pete says:

      Good to see the wee ginger dug agrees with me. The SNP were elected by pro-independence supporters in the main with the understanding if their was a material change of circumstances like Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will there would be a new referendum on Scottish Independence.
      Well SNP now is the time, now is the hour if you don’t have a new Independence referendum before the next Scottish Parliamentary elections then like the wee ginger dug I seriously doubt we will have another one for a long, long time.
      Like most members I am in the SNP because I believe and desperately want Scottish Independence, if the SNP fail to deliver a new referendum then the SNP will fail come the next elections.

    154. heedtracker says:

      . For example on Arran after the death of the local laird Brodick Castle and the surrounding landscape including Glen Rosa and Goatfell were taken on by NTS Scotland in Lieu of Death Duties! It would seem to me that the people of Scotland should be able to claim title back.

      This is the great scam of the National Trust, property is never actually owned by them. Its all still owned by the families involved.

      Near us in Glasgow, Pollok House is still the family home of the original owners who keep the top two floors private. They own all the park and demand any change is ok’d by them. Yet we pay for all upkeep.

      In London, this is still the family home of Wellington’s family, who only allow public access to ground floor. But they are the owners.

      You can do this across teamGB:D

    155. Lenny Hartley says:

      Heedtracker, yup Brodick Castle also has apartments still used by the old Dukes family, remember as a kid exploring we found a lift and ended up in the “private Apartments” bloody lift broke down on the way back to the semi public areas, major panic but we managed to get out , it was a tight squeeze mind you 🙂

    156. Lochside says:

      So the Good Friday Agreement is an International Agreement and therefore allows the EU to recognise N.I.’s Eu status?….Does this not sum up the pathetic performance of our SNP leadership?

      While they retreat further and further from taking on the English fascist grab at our sovereign status, we sit here looking on while a province carved out of Ireland is slowly absorbed back de facto by the EU de jure. The Republic will extend citizenship to even the most atavistic hunnish ‘subjects’ residing in the tinpot ‘state’ of ‘Northern Ireland’.How absolutely ironic!

      Any bets the really ‘loyal’ lot end up coming over here to join their (protected) paramilitary comrades clusterd in Ayrshire and the west? A perfect storm, we end up even more saturated with butcher apron worshipping cretins than we have already.

      Meanwhile, the acculterisation of Scotland into Greater England gathers apace…Windswept and uninteresting poison dwarf Oliver gets a kingpin position in the NTS. An ideal candidate for rewriting our history into an ‘acceptable’ pro Unionist narrative; Someone( guess who?) is sponsoring hateful Hopkins to spread her malignant spoutings to our kids; and Corbyn and his red flag (ha ha) crew remain schtum on Spanish fascist crackdowns on Catalonia.

      Where is our leadership?…we are sitting ducks waiting to be shot down like frozen targets in a grotesque geopolitical shooting gallery. We must expect NS and the weary willies like pete Wylie and Tommy sheepish Shepherd to show some semblance of spines and lead us out of this absoulute mess. Surely??

    157. Legerwood says:

      heedtracker @ 10.40

      Team Dayell and House of the Binns too

    158. Old Pete says:

      Totally agree with you Lochside.
      I live in South Ayrshire and we are creaking with anti-Scot white settlers from south of the border already and more Orange Lodge thugs moving here would be disastrous. We must go for a new referendum sooner the better.

    159. heedtracker says:

      Legerwood says:
      30 September, 2017 at 10:59 pm
      heedtracker @ 10.40

      Team Dayell and House of the Binns too

      Yes that’s another classic NT tax dodge. Why the fuck we tolerate these charlatans and chancers is a total mystery. But you can see why our imperial masters were so joyful and relieved we voted NO, last time.

      This time?

      NTS may not actually own anything at all, its all merely in their “care,” what we have to pay for.

    160. yesindyref2 says:

      That with Northern Ireland is actually a very good reason for the SNP staying quiet as a mouse, until it’s a definite happening, because what’s good for Northern Ireland is good for Independent Scotland, and can be used as the precedent in the Referendum campaign to show it’s not a choice between two markets, it’s BOTH of them people would be voting for with a YES vote, rather than just the UK “single market”.

      If I was Sturgeon I’d be keeping well shtum right now.

    161. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      Creepy UKOK comment on SKY News just now.

      Reporter Mark Stone on Catalonia Referendum:

      “The polls will open at 6am in a huge difficult moment for Spain WITH IMPLICATIONS FOR INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENTS ACROSS THE CONTINENT”

      Who could they mean?

      Pretty obvious implication that if Spain can claim illegal and unwanted then crack down and refusal to acknowledge is UKOK.

      Especially in Scotland in the future.

    162. Chick McGregor says:

      Just as a quick reminder re Katie Hopkin’s educational expertise.

      Worth waiting for Holly Willoughby losing it at the end, never seen her like that since or before.

    163. Old Pete says:

      Watching Sky news and have to agree, if Spain successfully thwarts the democratic referendum in Catalonia could Scotland face the same fate ? We will never know if we are too cowed to even try.

    164. heedtracker says:

      Worth waiting for Holly Willoughby losing it at the end, never seen her like that since or before

      That’s a very familiar English style debate Chick. I have never ever heard that kind of debate among Scots, ever.

    165. Gary45% says:

      Old Pete @11.04.
      Ditto “settlers” in the Highlands, Dor-nock Mo-ray, Nayen, Eljin, Faw-ress, Ken-loss, Losseemaff, Fock-abers also.
      They have NO IDEA what the SNP government are doing for the good of Scotland, will never vote for them until they realise the Establishment have FU**ED them over, by then it will be to late.

    166. Molly says:

      Heedtracker and like everything else in Scotland ( where assets are concerned) it’s complicated.

      I remember reading a piece by Andy Wightman a couple of months ago about Holyrood Palace.

      …a stealthy power grab seems to have been underway over the last 30 tears by The Lord Chamberlain who took over all employment of all Palace staff from the then Scottish Developement Department. The Royal Collection Trust – a charity formed in 1987 with The Prince of Wales as Chairman and trustees including The Lord Chamberlain, The Queens Private Sec and the Keeper of The Privy Purse – now employs the staff working at Holyrood Palace.

      So far so good?

      In 2014-15 Historic Scotland spent £1.25 m for the upkeep and maintenance of the Palace. The majority of this ( 967,000) was for Historic Scotland staff and ” staff employed by the Royal Household and recharged to Historic Scotland”.

      In other words, the Royal Collection Trust , a private charity that is not accountable to Scottish Ministers or The Scottish Parliament , employs the visitors staff, gets the Scottish Govt to reimburse their salaries and keeps all the entrance money (3.3m in 2015/16 with a further £1m in shop sales).

      An old guy I used to know used to tell me as we drove along, some of these hills in Scotland aren’t hills, there’s ‘ stuff’ buried in them.

      I think there’s more than hills full of ‘ stuff’ we know nothing about where Scotlands assets are concerned…

    167. Robert Kerr says:

      Re KH in schools, she may also be at it in Wales.

      “Has anyone else picked up on reports that columnist and broadcaster Katie Hopkins, someone who has gained a following courting controversy, is being booked to give talks to young people in Welsh schools?”

      This is a part comment on an piece in which is itself interesting re NR on BBC and refers to WoS

      Off to bed now peeps.

    168. heedtracker says:

      Molly says:
      30 September, 2017 at 11:36 pm
      Heedtracker and like everything else in Scotland ( where assets are concerned) it’s complicated.

      It only looks that way but the rich can afford the best accountants and tax lawyers. Setting up the NT was meant to conserve heritage but it all snowball very quickly into a colossal tax evasion scheme, for old UK money directly after ww2.

      New UK money essentially stashes its cash mountains offshore, whilst kicking back to the tories, red and blue.

      Tory teamGB is extremely tax evasion talented but this talent needs a lot of cover. Which is why NT picked a tory unionist roaster like Oliver to be their President of the NTS. Oliver is hardly going to be advocating any change, or going, what and how the fuck are you lot getting away with this, in the 21st century is he? The exact opposite ofcourse.

    169. heedtracker says:

      It’s probably always at the back of the average tory mind though, “could we really go too far, could a revolution actually happen in my united kingdom?”

    170. HandandShrimp says:

      On the other hand if Catalonia is visibly repressed despite a Yes vote it may make Spain’s position untenable and the independence gets a boost. The stakes are high both ways.

      Caught a bit of the ITV news there, they seemed to be doing the “Oh the humanity, independence is so divisive” thing and majoring on a unionist demonstration. Nothing much changes there then.

    171. Street Andrew says:


      The Goldilocks principle is “not too hot and not too cold, but just right”.

      Not too big and not too wee, but just right. Which is not to say it might not get a bit bigger if some of Northern England were to be offered a choice of whether to be governed from Holyrood or Westminster.

      I’m well aware of the London perspective that perceives Scotland as a little bump at the top of the weather map. Most English folk wouldn’t be able to mark the border on a map. Similarly they don’t unless they’ve driven there have much idea just how far it is beyond Exeter before you get to Land’s End.

      Big in European terms are: Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Poland, Ukraine. All are substantially bigger than the entire UK.

      All I’m saying is don’t exaggerate. Most of what you say in your ‘Goldilocks reply’ I agree with entirely.

    172. Hamish100 says:

      Re the NTS

      It’s all beginning to fit for in to place

      Oliver – Tory unionist
      Appointment by Sir Moir Lockheed – Tory unionist. Close links with the Univ of Aberdeen as is dr Tory biohazard Pennington and ex BBC – NHS Scotland is bad pr guru Bradford . The patron of Aberdeen is prince Charlie’s bidy-in.
      Who did Sir Lockheed succeed? some other knight called Sir Kenneth Calman – unionist who prepared some toilet paper special edition called the calman commission. Father I believe of a rather unfunny ex lawyer — Susan Calman who if memory serves me right muscled in on the BBC on the poor old Fred mcauley show and now appears regularly on Radio 4 with her pet cats as the mainstay of her comedy routine. Another unionist Tory.

      I agree to the comment above merge SNH and NTS into one nationalised body and clear out the patronage.

      As a NTS member I do not remember any voting papers or advert for this post. Must have passed me by. Discussed with wife subscription to end.

    173. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      yesindyref2 at 11.16

      Exactly. Well said. Meanwhile support for independence and support for the SNP continues to climb back again and some folk on here would like us to ignore that. But we have to go for a referendum in the next 18 months.

    174. Alex Clark says:

      Trolls rarely offer an opinion that is on topic, the’re not here to discuss the article but in the main have their own pet topic.

      Almost every post they put up will be on the same subject and is repeated time after time and day after day. So they are not difficult to spot, the most obvious are those that incite violence as a means of Scotland becoming Independent.

      This particular type of troll is the worst but easiest to spot, just read their posts they are here to stir up trouble. I’ve been reading Wings for years and genuine supporters of Independence on this blog would not advocate violence of any kind. Only a troll would do that.

      Ignore them but no harm in contradicting their arguments without addressing them. Their is no need to address them and give their comments any legitimacy.

    175. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi yesindyref2 at 8:30 pm.

      You typed,
      Most people would know about Scott and Shackleton in the Discovery. Few might know about the Scotia and William Speirs Bruce, which I guess could give Scotland and Argentina a joint claim in the Antarctic…

      This is from the link you provided:
      “Robertson, then aged 48, had 20 years experience in the Arctic and Antarctic as master of the Dundee whalers Active and Balaena, and the success of the voyage owed much to his skill in ice navigation.”

      Don’t know if you’ve seen this stuff but it concerns the Scottish Antarctic Expedition of 1892-93. From the link I provide there,
      “In 1892, a fleet of Dundee whalers belonging to Robert Kinnes (Balaena, Active, Diana and Pole Star) sailed on an investigative expedition to the Antarctic looking for whales. The fleet required a surgeon and naturalist to sail with them and the scientific community suggested William Speirs Bruce. Bruce had not completed his medical studies but was well known for his interest in oceanography. His assistant was to be the artist William Gordon Burn Murdoch who was commissioned by Longmans the publishers to write an account of the voyage.”

      Onnyhoo, you can see what I, and others posted, at this link,

    176. Alex Clark says:

      The trolls favourite topics are the shit state of the SNP and when will they start doing something, when the next referendum should be held as soon as possible, UDI is the the way forward, time to get tough, don’t read the National ect.

      Now genuine Independence supporters too may believe in any of these things but the crucial difference is that they will not go on about them time after time. The troll does it non stop

      The troll will and it doesn’t matter if the topic of the article is about foodbanks, Kezia Dugdale, Tories or any other subject, they do not post On Topic and completely ignore the topic of the article. They will only want to talk about their subject.

      Learn to ignore them, help keep Wings on topic and in harmony.

    177. yesindyref2 says:

      Hi Brian, interesting thread and pictures. I had read about the whalers before right enough, there was some article somewhere going into who had what rights in the Antarctic from the point of view of Scotland, and who discovered what.

      Might be important from a resources point of view in 50 years.

    178. Ghillie says:

      Labour : A party untied.

      Has the great and wonderful Mr Corbyn said anything noteworthy yet in support of Catalonia?

    179. Ghillie says:

      To the people of Catalonia,

      My thoughts and prayers are with you all today.

      May you all be safe.

      May your voice be heard.

      Joy and peace to you all =)

    180. Cactus says:

      They are “The inFamous Five”, maybe Kezia could play the part of Timmy.

      ‘Five on a Treasure Island…’ aye but whose treasure is it?

      X marks the spot.

    181. Bob p says:

      Lochside 10.59pm. The only people who can lead us “out of this mess “are the Scottish people themselves. And untill they grow a pair,it looks like a long wait.

    182. Hamish100 says:

      So the Spanish legacy of Franco looms large. The murderer of tens of thousands. Supporters of Hitler and Mussolini are now denying of the right of Catalonia to have a democratic vote on self determination and Independence

      The people are sovereign.

      Silence from May silence no surprise but also from Corbyn the great socialist democrat. It appears Corbyn only believes The Irish are entiltled to independence – and the English.

    183. louis.b.argyll says:

      Aye, if all ‘planning’ is devolved, then the Scottish Parliament, surely, has ultimate power over the stewardship of all infrastructure and all historical structures and monuments.

      Sadly, the biggest monument in Scotland is the emptiness. Lands cleared of people by greedy Unionist opportunist landlords and still owned, or swapped for riches from the Empire by them and their descendants.

    184. Nana says:

      Boris Johnson: Not an appropriate Foreign Secretary. Recited Road To Mandalay in Myanmar temple. Told to shut up by a senior civil servant.

      A picture paints a thousand words

      Yemen war: UN agrees to send war crime experts

    185. louis.b.argyll says:


      Lawlords against grassroots.

      From Labour, nothing of any meaning.

      Who has the right to demand change to a constitution?

      Why can European states use medieval laws to resist change, it’s disgusting.

      What happened to solidarity. This silence is deafening, from those supposed to be socialists.

      Smaller nations together can force change.

      Large nations feel their stolen power diminish, so they beat down the weak from a position of power.

    186. Old Pete says:

      Catalonia vote derailed ?

    Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

    ↑ Top