Phenomenon Of The Week
Over the past few days, readers, we haven’t been able to avoid noticing a recurring theme among Unionist types on social media – namely that the Holyrood election results are proof that support for independence is declining.
But it’s not until you ask them to explain that it gets completely mental.
The measure being used is a straight count of party votes, whereby (for example) all SNP voters are counted as Yes supporters and all Labour voters are counted as No. Alert readers will of course know that this is at best a massive over-simplification of the reality, but let’s take it at face value for now.
The person behind the calculations is a long-standing and slightly creepy Yoon nutter called Steve Sayers, who’s fond of creating snappy graphics with copyright messages on them in case anyone should try to make a fortune by putting them on t-shirts or something. Here are a couple of his most recent zingers:
The assertion, then, is that “the ebbing of popular support for indy is evident” from the figures, and that “the Yes vote has reduced” by 0.83% compared to the 2011 election. (Which you might consider a pretty trivial number unworthy of quite so much crowing anyway, but let’s not make things any more complicated than necessary here.)
There are just a few minor problems.
The first, and rather a key one, is that Steve can’t count. The total SNP vote this year (constituency and list combined) was 2,013,484 rather than the 1,995,484 he claimed in his tables. To be fair, after we pointed that out several times he eventually admitted it was wrong, but claimed it made “no significant difference” to the figures.
But the bigger problem is that if you add up the votes for pro-indy parties in the two elections, the 2016 vote share is unquestionably, unequivocally and indisputably higher than the 2011 one.
There’s not much in it, but pro-indy parties got 0.7% MORE of the votes cast than in the previous election. The numbers break down like this:
Weirdly, when we pointed out the fairly straightforward arithmetical fact that 48.3 is a bigger number than 47.6 to Mr Sayers, he refused to accept it.
And it took us some close study of his (revised) charts to figure out why.
We’ve highlighted the key line above. What Steve’s done, rather than what you might think would be the boringly obvious logical approach – actually counting up votes for parties who support independence – is for some reason decide to split all the votes for “other” parties 50/50 between Yes and No.
What that means is that in 2011 he’s allocated 97,419 votes to Yes from all the minor parties, but slashed that number (we’re not sure why) to just 21,193 in 2016. Those 76,226 “lost” Yes votes in 2016 turn the total from an increase to a decrease.
So let’s look at some of the parties who had half of their 2011 votes counted as Yes:
And no, you’re not imagining that. Some of the parties who’ve been considered to be 50% in favour of independence are the BNP, the National Front, Respect (yes, the one led by George “Just Say Naw” Galloway), the Scottish Christians and – our very favourite – the Scottish Unionist Party.
You’d think the clue would be in the name for at least one of those, right?
(We’d briefly wondered, incidentally, whether the Socialist Labour Party, led by Arthur Scargill, might have been pro-indy, but as it turned out they weren’t – their policy was merely to support a referendum. And even if they’d been 100% pro-indy it wouldn’t have been enough to turn the figures round anyway.)
As we write, several hours into debating the issue, Steve Sayers still insists that he’s right and that support for pro-independence parties fell between the two elections.
To cut a long story short, all we’re saying is that if you find yourself in debates on Twitter or Facebook with Yoon types flashing tables and charts and graphs around, you might want to double-check them before you engage, folks.
The horror – I am included with Galloway in 2011. Aieeeee.
Is this the same Steve Sayers who sent Police to my door on the eve of the election with a 2 month old complaint that I threatened to bomb him?
“Is this the same Steve Sayers who sent Police to my door on the eve of the election with a 2 month old complaint that I threatened to bomb him?”
I’d be prepared to bet that it was, yes.
The bomb threat was posting Wylie Coyote and a Semtex recipe in relation to a convo with another Nat about being called terrorists during indyref. Steve, jumped in and caused a shit storm in his usual style, playing victim. Waits 2 months then cowardly phones the Police with an “anonymous” complaint.
Its the “not respecting the will of the Scottish people” that gets me. Theres been no 2nd referendum so the vote has been respected. Unlike the non delivery of the Smith, or the advent of eVEL. If the Tories win should all other parties pack up their ideas and go home for a Generation? Silly thing to say.
Steve Sayers is a really creepy guy.
One of the first yoon zoomers I came across on Twitter and one of the first I have blocked.
Best to avoid him.
He knew that I’d be at a polling station as a member, and hoped for a Police presence to cause some headline.
He has played the victim card for years, trolls, abuses and induces Yoon pile-ins for years then it’s “poor me”, look I’m being victimised.
An odious little shit.
“we haven’t been able to avoid noticing a recurring theme among Unionist types on social media – namely that the Holyrood election results are proof that support for independence is declining”
Call me paranoid, but, my impression is that the BBC and MSM seemed to have launched huge attacks on the SNP. Natural I suppose for two reasons. BREXIT is on a knife edge, and the possibility of Indyref II could be looming. The SNP are still hugely popular in Scotland… don’t them Jocks still not get it?
Tell us about it Dave. 😉
All he does is troll and play victim then blame, the mark of a coward.
Stephen Hawking, unsatisfied with proving things we thought impossible about black holes, has now decided to pursue the truly impossible – understanding Yoon maths.
I am inclined to let him play with himself and leave him to his delusions. Unless of course it is an actual deid pig he is pumping. I guess doing that can produce Bailiesque arithmetic!
Steve complains that some Twitter account are anonymous, then anonymously files a mailicious time wasting complaint to the Police, I’ve never seen more bored officers in my entire life:
“What? This is 2 months old?” ”
*yawns* this is about Twitter?”
“Hasn’t Twitter got procedures for this?”
Me: “ye, he felt so threatened from my “home made Semtex” that he waited 2 months and just before an election to make a complaint”
Steve, you’re a fucking coward, a failure and a twat.
We know how this ends, we will end this rancid Union and you’ll have nothing left.
Utter tosh anyway, I know you said it’s “an over simplification” and should be ignored. I can’t help saying it anyway.
A particular party vote in any election does not a Yes or No supporter in a referendum make.
Does he have use of the SLab calculator?
Only a complete ultra maroon would argue that a drop from 0.83 to 0.63 is immaterial. It is a 25% drop in the figure he is using as a fapping aid. 25% is not immaterial in anyone’s book.
Of course one could argue that 0.83 was never a figure to get excited about in the first place (although the desperate must find their pleasures where they can) but as is apparent, whoever this chap is has had to do the dance of the contortionist to get there in the first place.
One thing we can be certain of, if there are moves for an Indyref2 these people will be wailing like banshees. 🙂
Poor Yoons. Still at the nonsense. This is a wee gem of a book:
link to amazon.co.uk
A reviewer says :
“The book is about how numbers can be manipulated, by accident or design, to trick people into making false conclusions, and how to spot when you are being fed misleading numbers. In this day and age the ability to spot bad statistics is extremely important to everyone and can literally be a life-saver.”
I recommend it. Useful for anyone thinking of reading anything by K….n H…e.
He is a dangerous man, his mates try to get details then trawl the net to identify you then attack you on twitter with fake accounts, one of his worst foot soldiers who often creates wings accounts to troll you is richfryer73.
He is one to be avoided mostly targets women. Have screen shot of his freind id hiim as trolling you she in on it
I wonder if Apple are OK with him claiming repeated screenshots of their iOS calculator app is a graphic “by” Steve Sayers?
To be perfcetly honest, I think you guys are struggling here.
“To be perfcetly honest, I think you guys are struggling here.”
With what, pray tell?
“A particular party vote in any election does not a Yes or No supporter in a referendum make.”
Indeed. But in fairness counting votes for pro-indy parties in both years is at least comparing apples with apples. If you do it in a remotely sane way rather than counting the BNP and UKIP as 50% and 0% then 100% pro-indy respectively, of course.
“He is one to be avoided mostly targets women.”
Yeah, I’ve had quite a few indy women tell me about rather creepy messages from him.
Amazing how many Loony Yoonies are making graphs!
Do they realise how many folk are laughing at them?
Just been talking to Steve Sayers on Twitter he’s a bit loathe to come over here but if you want to congratulate him on his info-graphic do pop over there and do so.
Greens are “pro-indy”? Progress.
“Greens are “pro-indy”? Progress.”
According to Steve’s criteria 😀
lol delusional fool ,yea i have seen it but but this means indy is over the tories are on the march.
All hail to Ruthie Buffalo tank girl not FM or government of Scotland but self appointed leader of the britnat opposition that could not get all the britnats to vote for her,aww what a shame i guess you dont love your yoon land that much then.
You muppets are right where we want you in our hot seat.
SNP bad lmao why wont you be scared Scotland boohoo we tell you lots of lies show you SNP scandals and you have the audacity to say pish and laugh in our face.
Clown shows good tonight loved the big custard pie to the face gag bravo 🙂
Sheesh. He is an arse. Bet he felt great having proved a point to himself,only to be dumped on his incompetent butt by yourself. Anti climax big time.
I can think of one SLAB that should have been in the yes column so ascribing yes and no on a party bases is arbitrary in the extreme.
But I say let them have their little illusions if there padding them to there yonder cohorts they’re not getting in the faces if real people were we should highlight the better position independence would put us in.
To be fair, from an evolutionary point of view, Yoons are probably not the smartest things on two legs.
I blame all that coffee myself, zoomer juice right enough
I thought you explained it in a very reasonable manner, from what I saw on Twitter, Rev.
You even called him ‘Love’. I thought, awww, that’s nice. 🙂
Iain More 😉
Bomb him with home made semolina
I’ve noticed that pro-unionist types often have that troll-like quality: dishonest, sneering, and with a nasty streak.
Probably best exemplified by the chief troll; Ruth Davidson herself.
For the attention of Steve Sayers: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA.
I made a New Year’s resolution to stop posting comments on MSM e.g. Herald and stop following twitter nutters Effie, HW, etc, or even reading their nonsense. I’ve felt better for it. I’ve said this before- If you gaze into the abyss… Be careful out there good Yessers.
Maybe he has been taking evening classes at the Kevin school of Graphology.
The pusbag appeared in my Twitter timeline this morning.
A one-tweet brush-off got me the expected illiterate reply.
Another Yoonibrow middle-England expat with peely-wally legs and paper mache for brains inhabiting the empty bars of Costa Cockney had crossed my path. A non-person with nothing to do except endless scrotum scratching checking for signs of life.
Fathead refugees should be barred from swarming all over the south of Spain and screwing up the local culture and traditions.
There WILL BE ANOTHER INDY REFERENDUM, and I will be voting YES.
So Yoons go and “Do One”
Apologies for using capitals.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Phenomenon Of The Week Over the past few days, readers, we haven’t been able to avoid noticing a recurring […]
These real buffoon yoons believed that the cow and the spoon actually jumped over the moon.
I see that he’s trying to validate the inaccurate data on his charts by appending ‘Source ScotGov and BBC’!
Strange how people like Steve Sayers make a point of omitting to mention that in relation to peak SNP votes they won a majority on 45.4% in 2011. This time they failed to get a majority but won with 46.5% of the vote (up 1.1%). Not bad, eh, considering the oil situation, the so-called 15 billion black hole and relentless meeja attacks and lies.
The SNP on 46.5% in the constituencies have recorded a higher percentage vote share than ANY other European government.
The UK Tories are ruling the roost over us all with a paltry 36.9% of the overall UK vote. And is their government actually legitimate at all taking into account Police investigations being carried out into electoral fraud in a number of constituencies?
Ruth Davidson’s 22% falls well short of Maggie Thatchers popularity (!) in Scotland as Thatcher never fell below 24% of the vote (1987). Figures as per Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp.
The legitimacy of Indyref1 was compromised even before polling took place amidst showers of false promises. We now know this, but so do the Yoons. The result is being respected, pending delivery of The Vow in the never never.
A stable foundation to ‘move on’? A shoggly peg, more like.
So they winge and spew bitterness as they draw more dodgy graphics trying to convince someone somewhere.
And of whose making is this constitutional limbo we are in?
The Yoons themselves engineered a hollow victory with a very limited shelf life. They have only themselves to blame, and deep down they must know it.
The statistics are interesting but clearly wrong, It’s obvious the author is a Yoon with limited ability and dubious mentality.
I guess he believes that if only Maggie could be resurrected, then e would be saved.
Sorry but I think that would mean Independence would be certain.
Never mind her spawn lives on, in Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, May and Duncan-Smith.
Never mind from now until 2020 that will be painful enough, the next Tory government up to 2025 should be interesting though. Never mind one party state we may be heading for POLICE STATE.
Scots are unfortunately the victims of the Tory abuse they chose to inflict upon themselves, through ignorance mostly.
On their head be it. Sad but true.
I must be a troll, I always enjoy meeting Unionists whether online or in real life. Try looking at the situation from their perspective for 5 seconds and it’s clear that their reality is the one that is bleak and threatened, not ours. Meeting them is nothing but fun.
Reality for Scottish Unionists was always grim though, they shouldn’t give us the credit for that.
How do they look their kids in the eyes after selling them down the river like that, that’s what puzzles me? “Oh hooray for you dad, now we can wave that shameful flag and walk the streets like zombies looking for work and things to moan about…”
Yeah, well done that chap.
And the best bit is it’s all for nothing; independence is an inevitability. You don’t put genies like that back in bottles. If we don’t achieve independence, our kids will. Every one of us is instilling the determination and hope that we have in the hearts of our kids.
Ultimately, no matter what happens, this Union makes Unionists inferior to us. There isn’t one self-respecting human being on the planet who would subvert their own interests, their children’s interests, and their country’s interests, to be part of this defunct and dysfunctional union.
So yeah, they should be afraid, very afraid, and miserable, very miserable; Unionists have much to be afraid and miserable about. The only thing they have going for them is an inability to comprehend their misery and imagine that their lives could be better.
It also has to be born in mind, that when one party is so very far ahead of the others in opinion polls, as was the case for the SNP this year, it is their support which is likely to suffer from supporters not being motivated enough to vote. e.g.s “Why bother with the hassle of arranging a postal vote, we’re going to win anyway?”, “Why bother rescheduling that trip/medical appointment, we’re going to win anyway?”.”Not feeling too well, why bother voting when we’re going to win anyway?”,”It’s a time consuming trip to the polling booth, why bother when we’re going to win anyway?”,”I’ve had a hard day, I’m knackered, why bother when we’re going to win anyway?” etc.
Nice one. Its like watching the Keystone Cops yoon style, reading down that.
Doesn’t The Scotch Pie Pegasus theorem states that the Yoon on the hippopotamus is equal to the Yoons on the other two buffalos?
– or something like that?
I’ll get my coat – shall I?
For years we’ve had SNP Baad and it hasn’t worked so now they’ve developed a brand new strategy which is exactly the same as the old one, the phrase now is Referendum Baad
Excellent as the Yoons clearly are at strategising stuff I don’t think they’re on to a winner with this one, but who am I, I’m only a thick Nationalist extremist one party state cult follower engulfed in Nicola Sturgeons web of deceit
In other news, I endured the 2016 clown fest and have to say when Shelley Jofre took the job I did harbour hopes that it might improve but wonder of wonders it’s gotten worse and now Ms Jofre is talking like a badly programmed robot with the batteries running out
I’m concerned if her speech gets any slower medical intervention is going to be required, and the guest expert selection if possible is worsening by the week when all they can find to present to Scotland are David (the sash my father wore) Clegg and Simon Pia’s more unfortunate sister, Anna (I forgot my toothbrush) Burnside who also seems to have great difficulty in forming words
These are not great attributes in the business of the talking to people game
If they’re not careful BOTH viewers will not turn over after the expert news on STV presented by Shouda combed my hair Rhona Dougall who I’ve always been convinced owns a motor bike because it looks like she goes to work on it
Some folk might say It’s bad to be name calling folk but I think the way I look at it maybe it’s their turn to be mocked for a change and I would like some better and more professional programming for the money I don’t pay
Just a wee payback for calling my Khaleesi all the bad names, after all, she is the mother of Scottish Dragons
Hear me roar eh Meeeowww!
Bottom line is, you cannot, very sensibly at least, use party support levels as an indicator of support for independence.
I did quite a bit of psephological work back in the naughties.
Particularly in the aftermath of the 2003 election when there was a much gnashing of teeth, sack cloth and ashes, period of reflection by the SNP at their poor result.
It showed that if you looked at the combined pro-indy party support, not just the SNP, the level of support for indy judging by total indy party support, had actually gone up. (left wing party support was higher then prior to Murdoch’s intervention). That fact seemed to get through to some, like Alex Neil who organised a fringe cross-pro-indy party side meeting at the SNP conference.
It also indicated, that support for indy using that analysis was highest in the Glasgow region at just under 44%. Which was in itself a major surprise at that time. This was, of course, before the SNP had managed to shrug off the ‘Tartan Tory’ label even though they had moved to the left some years prior to that.
Consequently SNP support in Glasgow was very poor. If you only went by SNP results, as folk tended to do then, the expectation at that time would be that the NE was the hotbed of nationalism and Glasgow region at the bottom. It was a complete reversal of conventional wisdom.
So from a regional perspective and a morale adjust perspective the excercise did have value.
However, regarding the national perspective, at that time support for indy, according to buried polls was actually 54% whereas the national combined indy party support at that time fell far short of that at just over 33%.
Why?
There are many domestic political reasons why support for a party may not align with its constitutional stance.
Just because support for the SNP has in recent times more closely reflected indy support as indicated by polls does not mean the two things have become synonymous.
Although, clearly, the SNP are now viewed much more as a ‘movement’ these days, as well as a party and so have demonstrated that they are capable of attracting (borrowing) votes from many of those who are not necessarily aligned with their domestic policies.
It is still not the same thing.
Yoons are red, yellow and blue,
Indy support,has yet again grew,
So take all yer nutters,
Your lies and your spew,
Cos indy is coming,
Who fuckin knew !!
..
Oh wait…valentines has passed..hopefully they won’t notice..
Well said Chic McGregor..
Yeah, when people don’t even have the motivation to make their vote(s) count, for something that will decide their (and our) immediate and short-term future.. that is a damn shame, but unfortuitously that’s people for us. As you say, many situations.
When Scotland’s next expected independence referendum date is announced and marked on the calendar, (mibbies Thursday the xx/xx/1x) it would be braw if these persons above could motivate themselves enough to participate, for surety.
If more and more people are already thinking about voting Yes to being an independent Scotland (as we were before), you get a chance to practice that positive kind of vote again on the 23rd of June.
Just imagine the Scottish vote is gradually climbing to 60% Yes for the EU.. Yes and that’s a magic number.
Have a Fhenomenal Phursday y’all, almost the weekend.
Well said – Grousebeater
“The pusbag appeared in my Twitter timeline this morning.
A one-tweet brush-off got me the expected illiterate reply.
Another Yoonibrow middle-England expat with peely-wally legs and paper mache for brains inhabiting the empty bars of Costa Cockney had crossed my path. A non-person with nothing to do except endless scrotum scratching checking for signs of life.
Fathead refugees should be barred from swarming all over the south of Spain and screwing up the local culture and traditions.”
I couldn’t have put it better myself, wonder if the Police will visit me again for taking about him on social media.
I see that the TOP TORY BARONESS is having a wee go at Ms Sturgeon and faithfully reported in the ever ” Daily Record with marginally better spelling and grammar Herald”
I cannot believe that a paper can sink so low and with such alacrity!
Neither can I believe that the bon mots of ” Mrs Doubtfire” are worth any printers ink.
This constant idiotic quacking by the Tories is fair getting my dander up and my resolve to ensure their downfall – Buffalo soldier and all.
RMT Union spokesperson this morning threatens the “Tartan Tories” Scottish government that if the Ferries contract is not awarded to Cal Mac The RMT Union will make sure the SG pay a heavy price
A demonstration will take place today outside Holyrood supported by Patrick Harvie of the Green Party to make that point
I’m only the messenger don’t point that at me
It is a different voting system. A Referendum Vote is different from all others YES or NO. With a 85% turnout. It was so nearly won. 30% of the vote would appear to be people who support NO political Party, absolutely NO interest in Politics or engaging with the Political system. How can their vote be accounted to any Party. 16/17 years not voting in GE but voting in the others.
To compare an election or absolutely crazy Hoyrood system is just nonsense. It is chalk and cheese, apples and pears. The votes which swung the Indy Ref were people that support any Party. They just supported a NO or YES Party which does not exist.
The 30% of extra voters (by comparison with GE/Holyrrod turnout) who engaged with the Indy Ref it seem likely to be split down the middle 50% YES or NO. (i.e. 15% YES 15% NO) They are the ones who determined the outcome. Members of no Political Party, who do not engaged in Politics.
It is impossible to completely gauge the rhyme or reason, but the YES vote has increased. The Hoyrood results are inconclusive for comparison because of the reason for the 2nd vote going to another Party. In some cases virtually cancelling out the 1st vote. An unintentional result, because people did not realise the consequences. Not a good electoral system. Designed to disadvantage the SNP/Independence Movement which will never die.
If the Holyrood election had been FPTP it would have been another wipe out for SNP.
There will be another Indy Ref because the unionists lied. They lied – the VOW/ Project fear. A complete fabrication. Will EU Ref ‘Project Fear’ make people who voted NO to Indy on the strength of it – realise. ‘Fire, famine and flood’ and terror contradictions. Even ISIL support the EU. UK/France do keep them in supplies, with help from US/Israel.
People do not realise how near it came Holyrood (crazy) result, to Davidson being FM backed up by Labour. Even after the 2nd rate rejects were voted out every time. That would have been a disaster for Scotland. Davidson and Cameron and even more damage they could have done. The Tories have broken all their promises and ruined the Oil & Gas industry (with no alternative) and the renewables industry in Scotland. Losing thousands of jobs. They are sanctioning and starving the vulnerable, making people who struggle lives harder. A
A Tory MEP is trying to get money diverted to EU funds to fund the CCS project at Peterhead (£Billion) get it up and running. Shell are contributing a proportion of the money, The UK Gov cut any funding breaking promises and rejecting the Project. It would have helped provide much needed jobs and cleaner energy. It could have created many future jobs and revenues In Europe. The Scottish Gov could be able to contribute funds in the future.
The Tories intend building a nuclear station at Hinkley Point by the sea. The waste will be exported. It will cost £60Billion+ and be ten+ years late. (For 7% electric supply). Renewables etc would produce more value and jobs. . A £9Billion tidal barrage at the Humber will produce more value electricity. Any other system of supply in the UK would produce more value for money energy. A disaster waiting to happen and a total waste of time and money. Putting up the deficit/debt. The Tories have not supported NHS or cut the deficit. The debt is going up.
The Opinion Polls are rigged to favour the Union and manipulate the vote.
HS2 – it will be over time and over budget and make journey times throughout Britain longer and more expensive. There will be more road traffic in the congested roads in the South and more expensive flights in the North. A flawed business case – Up the deficit/debt. The money would be better spent improving the present rail system. Quicker and cheaper.
Other Parties send the Police to people’s door with malicious complain and total lies. It usually rebounds on them big time.
Why are councils paying the Orange Order to march disrupting the streets for others, (Falkirk etc) destroying the local economy. These organisations are elitist and restrictive of menbership. Not open to all. That is totally unacceptable, illegal and could be challenged in the Court. An abuse of public money.
Who is this Sayers person? Why are they afraid of being identified. Is it the ‘journalist?’
Are the Police not obliged to name the complainant? Or make retribution for false claims.
He’s not just the sharpest knife in the drawer that fella. That’s some well fankled logic to come up with a yoon’s fondest wish that is.
@ the votes which swung the IndyRef were voters that do not likely support any political party, or engage in Politics, normally. If the Holyrood Election was FPTP it would have been an SNP majority wipe out. Not re elected 2nd rejects to disrupt the Parliament. Who holds them to account – Vacant coupons banging on desks. The voters or the SNP Gov.
@Dorothy Devine
Hmmm, there is lot of sound, but little light from many quarters right now isn’t there? There’s also quite a lot of media noise on how Scots shouldn’t, won’t, can’t have another referendum. Yoon central are throwing stories and theories about like pooh slinging chimps on crack.
You’d almost think there’s a reason for them to go into overdrive. Say Brexit narrowly leading the EU Ref polls?
THAT would be the capper to twentyone months of failed pledges, failed assurances and devo lite. A cornerstone of the Better Together campaign ‘stay with us to guarantee staying in the EU’.
And if a Brexit occurs? The utter and complete failure of Better Together and HMG to uphold their referendum pledges is complete.
Mind you on what they’ve done, or failed to do, so far I’d say there is more than enough evidence to chuck the ashes of the indyref in their faces and tell them to sling their hook. The current Scotland Bill alone should suffice for that. Some folk though, wouldn’t be told.
It didn’t have to be like this.
Good work Rev.
Support for Indy parties and yoon parties is eeksy peeksy,too close to call.So is support for Yes and No although the two aren’t quite the same thing.The trouble for the Yoonies is,a big chunk of their support is among the elderly.They have to convert current Yes supporters to No to replace those who shuffle off this mortal coil.And we’re talking about big numbers here.As the wartime generation dies out,they have to terrify a tranche of Yes voters,who withstood the the firestorm of fear and intimidation in 2014,into supporting the Tory union.
We all know that people get more conservative,more resistant to change as they get older.We’re told that this means people are more likely to vote against change as they get older.I think it actually means people get more resistant to changing their minds about things.Have a wee think about this:
” My pal used to dislike gay people.Over the years he has become much more accepting of them and now has no problem at all with them.In fact,he has several good friends who are gay.Of course,when he is old he’ll become much more conservative and start disliking gays.”
It sounds silly,doesn’t it?
Support for independence has ebbed and flowed over the years and may well do in the future.But the direction of travel is abundantly clear.The harder we work at it,the quicker we’ll get there.We lost our majority at Holyrood because not enough SNP supporters put enough work in to overcome the media induced apathy.
O/T
For those asking about Lesley-Anne (you know who you are)
She’s OK. She was targeted by a troll so has taken a ‘leave of absence’ from the online world but I’m assured by local branch that she is OK. I’ve asked that they pass on our best wishes.
The subversion of the election results in Scotland ie RUK general election and Holyrood elections has begun in earnest. We should be voting tory and labour based on their mindset that the Scottish referendum result should have removed aspiration and hope for this country. There is a concerted attack against the majority SNP government by all news media.
Even this morning my local SPAR was giving away free Torygraphs. Headline –SNP bad.
This is going to be a long fight.
SNP elected officials — your best behaviour please for your family and country’s sake
Yoons that are crapping themselves about Indy Ref2 want the subject buried, but cant stop talking about it and keep it as the major agenda in Scottish politics.
Its brilliant, Hail Ruth No Surrender Party, Scots cannot have a Referendum.
Even Corbyn is at it.
Cameron got 36% of the vote (approx) 650 seats contested. SNP not contesting Approx 580 seats out of Scotland (which SNP do not contest). SNP got 49% contesting seats in Scotland (+ 16/17 year olds). It shows which way the Indy Ref 2 vote is going.
Had the SNP been contesting (no possible) in approx other 580 seats (UK). Cameron’s percentage win, could have been considerably lower. He could have lost more seats.
Macart , I said they were getting my dander up but they are in fact dispiriting.
I thought that there might be changes of a sensible ,consensual type but no , it continues with the tripe and gripe politics of a school sneery ,bullying kind from the politicians and the media.
I saw the clip of PMQs on the news and realised that I no longer feel negativity towards Cameron , more a positively burning hatred of that smug , smarmy , small minded man.
I am a tad pissed off ,I have to say.
Lollysmum,
Thanks a lot for that. Very relieved to hear that she is ok.
Macart says:
“It didn’t have to be like this.”
So true, in so many ways.
A long list of IFs. Imagine if they hadn’t campaigned based on a long list of lies.
Lies about what might have happened if we has achieved Indy. Worst, lies about what would happen if we stayed. Many more powers and security in the EU, promises they had no intention of keeping.
Also, if they had recognised that most Scots want many more powers. The only long term question is really – DevoMax or full Indy? If they had put DevoMax in the table with sincerity after the 2011 win, it would have been a big step forward with self determination.
@Lollysmum
Good news on LA. Was getting a bit worried for a while.
@Dorothy
There’s a lot to dislike about the fella, no doubt. But as usual we’re being forced to react and fight on their ground, with stories of their choosing. Sooner we get back to pointing out their cataclysmic failure to deliver on anything they promised the Scottish electorate, the better.
The failures are piling up and turnabout is fair play. Folk need reminding every day what was promised and what has been delivered.
Deutsche Bank who during our referendum was never done making doom laden pronouncements on Scotlands economic prospects of being Independent is on the verge of bankruptcy due to bad forecasting decisions
I’m not laughing, honest
This is the odious wee shitepot who berated me on Twitter when I challenged him on something.
After a short exchange I ended up telling him what everyone already knows.
Then HE blocked ME 🙂
Absolute fuckwit.
Good news. Cal Mac awarded contract.
Hope plenty of SNP detractors eating humble pie.
@galamcennalath
They could easily have put the constitutional issue to bed with two simple actions for well over a lifetime, nevermind a political generation.
Had they:
a. Sdmitted the poor nature of the existing constitutional arrangement and campaigned on the basis of a positive future federal arrangement, they could have thrown the very idea of project fear in the bin and the wider societal damage caused by that toxic campaign would never have surfaced.
b. Kept their pledges and assurances within the limits of the believable and achieveable, then delivered on them 100%.
They have done neither. The constitutional nature of the construct on the Thames does not allow for ‘sharing’ or ‘partnership’. Federalism is utterly alien to its nature and so the devolution journey was stopped before it left the bus stop.
As for keeping their pledges? Not the greatest of track records really. (shrugs)
People don’t like change unless there is no other option. Most folks here got to that conclusion a damn sight quicker is all. We already know there is no option. Others? They lept onto the vow like a life preserver and used it as an excuse to avoid making that choice. They needed to believe the bill of goods they were sold.
Well, there is no other place to look, no other conclusion to reach. Better Together and HMG have defaulted on every single assurance, sold the public on a devolution package that never was and are now in the process of making them suffer for their choice.
The opposition’s argument in reply to this damning wall of hard evidence? Yeh but, no but, indy would’ve been even worserer than this. So there!
It’d make a stone weep.
Unionism is confronted with a Hobson’s choice.
If the unionist dominated propagandists permitted Scotland to have the unfettered debate about Scotland’s sovereignty, I feel quite sure Unionism loses. What’s more, I think the Unionists are quite sure of that outcome also.
The other choice the propagandists have is to own the narrative and manipulate the agenda. Yet as soon as they do that, (and it certainly worked last time), they leave the result of any referendum compromised and discredited, and the constitutional debate returns to the start. Play it straight, they lose. Skew the debate, they defeat the result, and we all endure a joyless stalemate ’til we do it all again.
Short of actual Independence, I feel we have a strong hand. I’m not at all convinced we are playing that hand as best we might, but while victory escapes our grasp, we are certainly not losing either. I suppose we should be thankful, but it’s mightily frustrating. I rather suspect complacency did play a part in our recent elections, but complacency in the electorate was merely the reflection of the SNP’s complacency about our pitifully corrupt broadcasting.
I have this recurring nightmare that here in Scotland we play sandbox politics; political allegiances ebb and flow, and there are cyclic patterns to the result. We expend ourselves fighting tooth and nail to be king of the sandbox, yet all of us lack the perspective to see our way out of the sandbox.
Beating Labour doesn’t deliver Independence. Beating the Tories doesn’t deliver Independence. Having an outright SNP majority at Holyrood doesn’t deliver Independence. Having wall to wall SNP representatives at Westminster doesn’t deliver Independence. Deciding to keep the pound, exit Europe, keep nukes on the Clyde, defending our pensions; none of it has any fundamental bearing on our sovereign Independence. When it comes to the debate about our sovereign independence, we continually throw away the wheat and study the chaff in such endless, tiresome detail.
We win all of these fights, but here we remain, undisputed Kings of the sandbox, but still not getting out of our display case anytime soon.
Truth is, I am already weary of the next Indyref campaign. Not because my dream of a free Scotland stands diminished or is losing any of its vibrancy, but we are already lining up to battle Ruthie and the Tories, we plan to have answers to questions we couldn’t answer last time, and focus our efforts on grassroots support. What you are telling me is the battle strategy for the next campaign, is exactly the same as it was for the last one. The politics of the sandbox.
If we go on in the same old way, they will stop us in the same old way, and I feel sick to my stomach because I can already see it happening.
Change the narrative. Hammer out a case to tie the media up in knots and see their seditious activities against Scotland exposed for all to see. Then, and only then, let’s talk calmly and objectively about Scotland’s place in the world outside the sandbox, then have a referendum where the result is built upon an objective and informed consensus.
More jobs to be cut in the oil and gas industry announced today due to the downturn in the price
And yet, strangely, oil is at it’s highest level yet since the drop at just under $50 per barrel and according to Goldman Sachs looks set to continue to rise for at least the rest of this year ahead with predictions of $70 by the new year
The new gas plant is pumping in enough gas to heat the whole of Scotland or more than 8% of the UK needs and yet they say we’re in a slump
I’m far from an economics expert but I’m confused, if production is up and prices are on the increase is that not supposed to be good or is it one of these cases where it’s bad for Scotland no matter what we do and we’re just Doooomed!!
So, if Indy support has actually increased since 2011 then, logically in a binary decision, support for the Union has fallen.
You catch that Stevie boy? Support for the Union has FALLEN–and continues to fall.
Some people are just so far up their own arses they just can’t bring themselves to admit when they’re wrong. A bigger person would most surely have done so. But Stevie boy isn’t a big enough person–he’s just a buffyoon. Total fruitloop.
David Cameron will not stand in the way of another Scottish referendum but the UK Government may impose a similar system as was used in the devolution referendum in order to end any further re-runs
That was when they counted dead people as NO voters or those who didn’t vote as NO voters I recall
If memory serves was that not also a 60% minimum for YES to count as YES
We should always keep in mind that there are simply no distortions and contortions the unionists won’t indulge in to undermine the case for Scottish independence.
link to archive.is
‘First Minister Nicola Sturgeon having ‘a bad hair day or a heel falling off’ enough to trigger second independence referendum, says top Tory Baroness Goldie Herald.
Voters would not want politicians to “eat lumps out of one another” but to “get on with the important business of running the country”, she said. ‘
Perhaps this silly woman could lead by example and stop making bitchy comments and she could perhaps suggest to her colleaques in Holyrood that they might need to modify their behaviour.
Does Annabelle Goldie have a sex life? What is she doing in her expenses paid accommodation in London? Are her knickers from Marks & Spencers or does she shop in Agent Provocateur?
FAO The Herald: Think of the increase in sales if you were able to provide your readers with info about the sex lives of politicians! Sex sells!
Macart says:
“The constitutional nature of the construct on the Thames does not allow for ‘sharing’ or ‘partnership’. Federalism is utterly alien to its nature”
Yes, in federal systems the units at each level have powers, rights and responsibilities enshrined in constitutional law. The best WM can contemplate is handing down some powers on loan.
Perhaps it is poor state of WM in general terms which lies at the heart of this mess. The UK undoubtedly has the most undemocratic government/parliament in the EU.
An elected dictatorship where near absolute power can be achieved by with 35% votes. An unelected upper chamber. A theocracy with guaranteed clergy seats representing only one sect. Top down sovereignty. And, no mechanism to facilitate the supposed partnership of the Union.
A hopeless arrangement, basically.
@ Breeks
Good post. The long battle is not in defeating the media but in showing the majority in Scotland who still listen to it that, as far is the constitutional debate goes, it is thoroughly biased and lies through its teeth in favour of Union. More and more people are beginning to see through the spin, disinformation, misinformation and downright lies of the colonial media (print & broadcast).
That’s the battle. That’s where we will win the battle to return Scotland’s sovereignty to its own people where it belongs. It won’t be easy because they’re a dirty, crafty bunch of shits–but more and more people across Scotland are starting to see them for what they are. And as their influence goes down, indy support goes up.
We’ll get there. There’s nothing more certain.
Dr Jim says
“the UK Government may impose a similar system as was used in the devolution referendum in order to end any further re-runs”
Yes. With their track record, I wouldn’t put anything past them.
In an earlier post I used the phrase … “The legitimacy of Indyref1 was compromised even before polling took place” … which I firmly believe and I’m sure many others do too.
If IndyRef2 were seen as being inherently compromised, then it’s hard to see how it would settle anything if NO won again by dodgy means.
So far, the Yoons are their own worst enemy! Sometimes it feels like we are bystanders as they destroy their own Union!
O/T
The Scottish Government has just announced that CalMac won the bid to run the west of Scotland ferry routes for the next 8 years.
@Valerie
Cal-Mac gets the contract and all is good as you say but here’s the typical Islander response “While we’re relieved and happy at the outcome for Cal-Mac the Scottish government must ensure that the company becomes more efficient in it’s practices going forward”
That’s the typical kind of response that brings out the bad temper in me, they say if you give the contract to anyone else we’ll strike,we’ll call you Tartan Tories,we’ll bring the government down, so they get what they want and still they bloody moan while the whole of the rest of Scotland subsidises the very ferries they’re moaning about
It’s never enough for some folk (I blame Jackie Baillie)
But that’s just because I don’t like her
Proud Cybernat
I totally agree with what you say. Difficult job to change to BBC & the MSM but you can change people minds regarding the media.
Once you are aware of the manipulation/propaganda there is no going back.
People do not like to be taken for fools!
More than half of Scotland’s having a bad hair day then
The bad hair day referendum
We’d definitely win that, when’s a GOOD hair day in Scotland
“Galamcennalth” at 0855, perhaps an opportunity to tactically ” outmanoeuvre” Cameron re 2nd referendum, would be to have 3 options on the ballot paper ,(1) status quo/ unionist (2) FFA ( devolved/ reserved powers absolutely clearly defined ) (3) Independence . The least popular option to be eliminated, and thereafter a straight vote between 2 most popular options.
The unionists cannot claim this is a ” rerun of 2014″, and with the least popular option (hopefully status quo eliminated) , then with a guaranteed win for either of the other options would hopefully rapidly lead to independence ??
Good morning, comrades.
Rather gloomy atmosphere around this place these days. I think the sectarian stuff earlier in the week depressed everybody. I was already depressed about that stuff…
Anyway, cheer up and look on the bright side. We are hurtling through space in an open sewer at 67,00 miles per hour. What’s not to like…
Ooops typo in previous post:
Difficult job to change the BBC & the MSM.
I’m not sure it would be a good idea for the SNP to take any steps re the BBC & MSM
Better for grass roots activists to spread the word!
The more lies & distortions printed by the MSM/BBC the easier it will be.
@ Ruby
“Once you are aware of the manipulation/propaganda there is no going back.
People do not like to be taken for fools!”
Exactly Ruby. And the thing is the colonial media MUST spin and contort facts and lie to the people of Scotland for, if they actually told the truth (for once), Scotland would be out of this corrupt Union in a heartbeat. And because they have to lie to us to keep us shackled to this corrupt Union, we can then take their lies and turn their lies against them by reflecting it with the truth.
THAT opens people’s eyes to what the colonial media in this country is doing. We simply take all the lies the colonial media print and broadcast and use their lies against them. And, as you said, people don’t like being taken for fools. Once they see what the colonial media is doing, it opens their eyes and there is no going back.
Colonial media–do keep it up. The more ammo you give us, the better. Tick, tock.
@Ruby,
I agree totally Ruby. There is no going back –ever. I care not about bad publicity or which SNP did what. What I am now dedicated to fight for is something greater than any politician or political party. It is the freedom of my country above all other considerations.
I have no doubt there will be further besmirching of SNP elected members,but I no longer care because it is as far as I am concerned irrelevant. As long as they carry the torch of independence I will support them.
North chiel says:
“3 options”
I remember thinking that a 3 option IndyRef1 would have been difficult, but your suggestion solves the problem. I assume you mean an STV system where the third drops out and its second choices are redistributed to the remaining two.
I would vote Indy 1, FFA 2.
Many firm Unionists might well opt FFA1, SQ 2. Only the small group of hardcore BritNats would opt SQ 1.
Basically SQ would be the option dropped, I’m sure. And the battle would be, as would be right, FFA versus Indy.
The flaw of course, is that FFA will never be offered by WM. They could never get it past the English majority who are already fed up of what they see as Scotland’s special treatment.
Yes, Unionists could save their Union with FFA, but it is almost certainly a price too far for England.
@Dorothy Devine says: 19 May, 2016 at 8:48 am:
” … I saw the clip of PMQs on the news and realised that I no longer feel negativity towards Cameron , more a positively burning hatred of that smug , smarmy , small minded man.”
You have said a mouthful of truths there, Dorothy.
If there is one fact about, “The Westminster Establishment”, political parties that becomes ever more evident it is that they are all mainly led by very rich people who are drawn from predominately English Public School educated former pupils.
The products of that English Public Schools system all exhibit certain traits as a result of that totally unnatural way for humans to nurture their young.
It can obviously be seen that same trend has prevailed with their parents, and their parents parents. This trend has been followed in the same manner back through the dim recesses of time.
We are thus being led, no matter which Establishment party is elected to office, by a leadership not only drawn from the same sector of society but one that has suffered from this totally unnatural upbringing.
Not only is it unnatural to delegate the upbringing of your offspring to nannies, boarding prep schools, boarding schools and universities but the teachings and lessons learned through that system become ever more extreme with each generation.
These elite political figures seem well educated but in fact they are not. They have had instilled in them many things as facts that are really false.
For example they all believe that Britain is a single political unit. There are factually five independently governed states in Britain. Three non-UK Crown Protectorates, a republic and the four country, two kingdom, United Kingdom. These contain eight different countries in total.
Then we have the cold cruelty exhibited towards all but their own elitist class. Witness the way of life encouraged by the Oxford University, “Bullingdon Club”. This is the club that was exposed as having such disgusting practices as a future PM’s sexual involvement with a dead pig’s head.
However, this Elite Establishment’s cold hands reach into the very basic fabric of the laughable named, “United Kingdom”.
It also includes the elite education establishments, The Legal system, The Financial Sector, The Churches, The armed forces top levels, The top civil servants, The Security Service leadership. It is also the leadership and/or ownership of the various media of press, radio, TV and, to a rather lesser extent, the Internet.
Lollysmum, thanks for the news of L-A. I’m pleased to hear that she is all right, it’s a bloomin shame that she has been targeted by a troll. Maybe we need to send for great big billy goat gruff to sort the troll oot.
Oh well Lesley-Anne, if you are still reading us, come back as and when you can. Look forward to you joining us again.
“Galamcennalth” , ultimately then we have a ” constitutional crisis”, with the sovereign will
of the people of Scotland being denied. Could Holyrood set a ” time limit” on implementation and ” threaten a subsequent referendum ( assuming FFA ?) .Could our MP’s be withdrawn from Westminster? My earnest hope would be a ” win “for independence option against FFA .
So glad I don’t do any of that youtwitfacetube social media stuff!
Mumsyhugs to LA XX 🙂
@Dr Jim says: 19 May, 2016 at 9:13 am:
“Deutsche Bank who during our referendum was never done making doom laden pronouncements on Scotlands economic prospects of being Independent is on the verge of bankruptcy due to bad forecasting decisions
I’m not laughing, honest”
I am, Dr Jim, Laughter is sometimes the best Medicine.
It saddens me to have to do this, but, I must correct something posted by the normally excellent Robert Peffers.
David Cameron’s alleged encounter with a dead pig was not an act required of his admitted membership of the Bullingdon Club.
The initiation ceremony involving the dead pig was supposedly part of the initiation ceremony into the Piers Gaveston Society – by all accounts, an Oxford society which makes the Bullingdon Club appear to be reasonable, well-behaved Christian gentlemen.
well said breeks
not interested in a yes “manifesto”
not interested in politics
only interested in how we organise yes2
only interested in campaigning tactics to identify yes supporters and undecideds
leave the politics of the sand box to the political parties
yes should only have 1 goal
independence
there is an argument that FFA for scotland could save the union. but I think it would only highlight the lies and deceit that WM have spread these past 5 years and swiftly be followed by independence
the intransigence shown by WM so far regarding further devolution would lead me to believe that they would oppose FFA as as much as they do indy
ergo, it is very unlikely to happen
IMHO. The yoons are very worried about indiret2 for two specific reasons. 1 – They loose the ref. And Scotland. 2 – They win the ref. By a small decreasing majority. The vindictive Engerlish MPs try to block another ref. For 30/40 years or worse, they know that will just inflame and bring on a potential disaster for Westminster and independence for Scotland.
If the yoons can persuade the SG to accept and admit there will be no referendum in the foreseeable future then it gets Westmonster off the hook and hangs the SG neatly on the gibbet, by their own hand. Westminster has a very nasty problem on its hands.
Dr Jim
That response by an islanders is mild compared to what’s taking place on Twitter.
Slab, Daily Rancid and sundry trying to claim victory arising from their ‘campaigns’
Shocking and disgusting that ANYONE would detract and imply that the work done, and award was anything other than highly skilled professionalism.
They undermine every single public sector service.
James Kelly is launching his Bill to repeal OBFA today.
And so it continues.
Always on point
Derek Bateman? @DerekBateman2
The only threat to Cal Mac now is the campaigners’ claim that politics swayed the decision by the SNP and discriminated against Serco.
This Independence thing will have to come really quickly now because of the cuts coming down from Westminster and the Scottish government refusing to pass on tax increases to mitigate them, which they were right to do, but it does leave them with a problem
Scotland stupidly voted NO and handed all the power back to the Tories to do what they like, and they will, and they’ll shout even louder about the strongest and safest and fastest parliament in the west even more and this will play big into the hands of the Labour Yoons AND the radical lefties to complain night and day about Nicola Sturgeon passing on Tory austerity to Scotland,The RMT only this morning were referring to the Scottish government as the Tartan Tories, Yes they’re dragging that old chestnut up again, and the media will love it
So unless our beloved Khaleesi and her team have got a plan to combat this the next few years are not going to be easy
Although I’ve never in my life known the SNP NOT to have a plan, they are a lot smarter than the average Yoonster
The only problem with FFA as an option were Holyrood to go down the perfectly within the devolved powers to hold consultative referenda route would be that it would not be binding on Westminster. However a 3 option referenda would certainly be a bargaining point. No way for Westminster to pretend to offer something it can’t guarantee.
If FFA was the majority preference then Westminster rejecting it moves the votes to either SQ or full indy. The risk, obviously, is that the result is SQ in that case but at least we would know. Wise heads and careful polling by Holyrood would seek to avoid that.
Obviously an in one bound they were free outcome is preferable but if that’s not to be then making steps towards independence is better than moaning about it incessantly. If the risk is that Federalism/FFA suits Scotland and makes us happy then that’s a chance I’ll take.
The major advantage in FFA, everything but defence and foreign policy with the obvious we still get a say in the later, being clearly defined is that there’s little room for negotiation. It’d be perfectly clear. Given there’s even a push for Federalism on the unionist side there’s a high chance od getting it.
@valerie that was going to be my point.
The GMB will claim that they forced the SG togive the contract to CalMac.
What the actual hell is this about the Greens standing with the GMB – give me strength
@Valerie
You’ve got to laugh at these Labour idiots, are they seriously saying that it would have somehow been OK for the Scottish government to break the law by NOT following the legal tendering process and if they did it was down to Labour and their silly Union lackeys insisting that they do break the law leaving the government and the Scottish taxpayer open to a legal challenge from Serco
There used to be a saying about people like these Labour twits, they were called “Walk offs”
When we all queued up for our brains to be put in before being born some folk just up and Walked off, and here we are surrounded by them
Sigh
@Valerie
They surely couldn’t be so cataclysmically stupid as to claim a ‘victory’ through political pressure?
They do know that such a claim would be considered poorly by EU law?
FMQs on in ten minutes for those who have tellys
We’ll see what we see
The SNP is funded by it’s members who care about Scotland. This enables the The SNP Gov commitment to standing up for Scotland.
The SNP Gov makes it’s decision on what will benefit the economy and the people, within limits of UK Gov policies which are detrimental to the Scottish Gov.
The rest is just white noise from left and right, trying to make political gain and exhibition from SNP Gov efficiency.
Its true SLab and the Greens take the plaudits
link to archive.is
Yay for SLab and the Greens
“Shortly before protesters, including Scottish Labour and Scottish Green MSPs, were due to demonstrate outside the Scottish parliament in defence of CalMac, Nicola Sturgeon announced the contract had been retained by the publicly owned firm.”
Sturgeon bad, boooo
“The Scottish government had insisted that EU law required the tender to be put out to full competition. They said it would still be a public service contract, controlled and funded by ministers, had the Serco bid won.”
Vote SLabour”
“After months of fraught negotiations and adjustments to its offer,
David Stewart, a Scottish Labour MSP, said it had become clear the contracting process was not in fact necessary, and Labour would be pressing for other tendering processes for the Gourock-Dunoon and Northern isles services to be halted.”
is a nice display of how rancid the Graun style Britnat attack propaganda works.
Only another five years of the same UKOK stinky old meeja creeps:-(
@ galamcennalath says at 11:43 pm …. ”The legitimacy of Indyref1 was compromised even before polling took place amidst showers of false promises. We now know this, but so do the Yoons. The result is being respected, pending delivery of The Vow in the never never. A stable foundation to ‘move on’? A shoggly peg, more like. So they winge and spew bitterness as they draw more dodgy graphics trying to convince someone somewhere. And of whose making is this constitutional limbo we are in? The Yoons themselves engineered a hollow victory with a very limited shelf life. They have only themselves to blame, and deep down they must know it.”
”And deep down they must know it.’’ That’s it in a nutshell galamcennalath. If they thought that we didn’t have a hope in hell of winning …. popularity has peaked … support for independence is declining …. they wouldn’t be doing propaganda contortions day in and day out and trying to brainwash us all with the continual ”Indyref2 is off the cards” mantra. We’ll decide, the people of Scotland will decide, if and when that should happen. Not Fluffy Mundell et al. And yes, they KNOW it.
Additionally Engerland is ready to implode. Half of the electorate (20 million? – not 2 million as in Scotland) are going to be extremely disappointed in the outcome of Brexit in a few weeks time, RAGING in fact, especially if it’s a Yes to stay vote. How will they react after June 23rd? Will they be as civilised as the Scots? A singular scrambled egg? I don’t think so.
Millions of people in England have been subjected to (getting a wee taste of) the propaganda machine in action, as we were a couple of years ago, in relation to Brexit and Corbyn. They don’t like it and I can just see it: Millions and millions of people no doubt sitting staring at their television screens night after night fuming and shouting ‘liars’, as we did not so long ago. Oh and there’s still five more weeks to go and as we know the propaganda machine moves into full throttle in the last few weeks …. WEEK. That should be interesting to watch.
One third, only, of those who actually voted wanted the Tories in power and that’s even questionable between one thing and another. The once ‘close the ranks regardless’ Tories are now a divided Party and that will remain after Brexit. Their hatred of each other is positively tangible. The Legitimacy of their position is even being questioned right now. Investigated by the Police. And if you don’t like the Tories, don’t want them, where’s to go for the poor people in England? Corbyn or Farage?
Then there’s the Queen who’ll be moving on, sooner than later. When she goes the ‘royal’ number is up. Unpopular Charlie or the parasitical shirkers Willie and Kate? Disillusionment followed by dissolution.
The UK is finished as far as I can see whatever way Brexit goes. They’ll be left with N Ireland (ha, ha) and maybe Wales. A wee dot on the World map minus a third of the land mass and the colour blue in their abhorrent flag. A wee dot that’ll have to house Trident and PAY for it minus ‘contributions’ from us. Their house of cards is ready to tumble and when it does we’ll make our escape.
@ liz Thats 2 strikes against the Greens it’ll get worse as the Parliament progresses.
False alarm on the FMQs thing, my fault, it was on my planner but not on the telly
Disappointed Damn!
actually
perhaps a referendum on FFA isnt such a bad idea, if it avoids the question of indy, im certain that a very large majority of voters would opt for it as being a way to save the union.
i wonder if slab or ruthie or rennie might just go for it. it would be difficult for the yoons in wm to object if their scottish branches supported it?
as i said, FFA would expose the lies of the yoons pretty quickly and indy would follow very quickly
we would then be relegated to picketing faslane and calling for blair to be impeached
@ liz Thats 2 strikes against the Greens it’ll get worse as the Parliament progresses.
LEAVE the Greens alone! They’re lovely and Green
Also but not only, terrific btl add on under rancid The Graun’s SLabour good thing today.
so from Rupert Carrells SNP and Sturgeon v v bad
“After months of fraught negotiations and adjustments to its offer,
David Stewart, a Scottish Labour MSP, said it had become clear the contracting process was not in fact necessary, and Labour would be pressing for other tendering processes for the Gourock-Dunoon and Northern isles services to be halted.”
via
link to news.bbc.co.uk
“After a parliamentary battle, the previous Labour/Lib Dem administration finally persuaded Holyrood that offering CalMac routes to the private sector was the only way of satisfying EU competition demands.”
Stench of britnat UKOK lying hypocrisy is quite rank today.
FMQ’s, not on. Anybody know what’s going on?
is there fmqs this week?
You could get fed up with folks who claim credit for other people’s work.
The thought that the SG would throw the rules of tendering in the bin and stick two fingers up to the EU because of pressure from anyone is beyond ridiculous.
Were I the folks who are trumpeting this guff (even were it true), I’d be keeping my face shut in the hopes that the EU doesn’t suddenly take an interest in that tender process.
Didn’t Prince Charles have an affair with some woman while he was a married man to Princess Diana and as his whole life is as a public representative of the Great Britain of the UK England country one Nation
Did he use taxpayers money and or Homes paid for by the taxpayer to conduct his sordid affair, I want it on the front pages of all the newspapers and I want it to say “Stupid Nooky Prince”
See what I did there
Holyrood business today… I think!
link to bb.parliament.scot
The Trade Unions were not elected by the electorate but by their members. They do not represent society. They rightly represent their members. Some members of small pressure groups have idees of their own importance above their station. Deluded egoists who believe their own publicity, Immature and incompetence.
There have been many cases, where the Trade Union leadership acted against the interest of their memberships and colluded with management to the detriment members. Some Unions fund the Labour Party. Their leadership have funded a Party whose leadership caused a catastrophic illegal wars and bankrupted Britain. Causing death, poverty, hardship and the worst migration crisis since WW11. Extremely misguided. Some Labour Party members and their associates tax evade and become Bankers and multimillionaires. While other vulnerable people starve because of their behaviour.
EU menbership gives many of the good social benefits, which society takes for guaranteed. Employment Laws, workers rights and Human rights for the citizens. The Unions power has been usurped. That is why many Union leaders do not agree with EU membership.
If anyone is looking for proof of Green lack of judgement/bandwagon politics, then supporting any kind of campaign against the SG in this CalMac tender is surely rank stupidity.
The tendering process was instituted under the previous Labour gov’t – they had no choice, the value of the contract comes under EU tendering law.
SNP do the same thing, and yet they are wrong to comply with the law?
We now have all sorts of cretins popping up, saying they won it, and allowing a huge international company, the opportunity to challenge the award of the tender?
This is why I sometimes wonder if we will ever be free, there is a huge amount of stupidity out there, no matter what facts are presented.
From listening early this morning on radio shortbread to Big Brian (my teams been relegated):
The new SG cabinet have to be paraded for inspection in front of the opposition and receive mild scorn and abuse (all in the best possible taste) from their unionist friends, as is the tradition at Holyrood before proper hostilities begin. 🙂
Good old punch and Judy stuff and I knew your faither kinda thing!
All happening at about 2pm…ish
link to scottishparliament.tv
@Socrates MacSporran says: 19 May, 2016 at 11:02 am:
“It saddens me to have to do this, but, I must correct something posted by the normally excellent Robert Peffers.
I have never ever claimed to be omnipotent, Socrates. Nor have I ever objected to being corrected for my mistakes.
In fact I’m always glad to learn the truth when I’m wrong.
“David Cameron’s alleged encounter with a dead pig was not an act required of his admitted membership of the Bullingdon Club.”
As it happens I did know the truth but was rather careless with my narrative. The point, though, is that it is their unnatural upbringing for even the majority of the animal kingdom is naturally inclined to protect its own young.
The exceptions to that rule are usually regarded as evil by mankind.
My point, though, was that such clubs are apparently a form of compensating for a lack of close parental contact and care.
Now I’m not saying these parents don’t love their children. More than likely, being brought up in the same way, they just hold the same selfish, self cantered attitudes as their own parents did towards them.
There is absolutely no doubt that the present Westminster views are that the government and financial sectors were innocent in regard to the financial depression following the banking scandal and that the ones to pay for the slump were chosen by them to be the poorest and most vulnerable in society.
The government may have been the Tory/LibDem coalition but the other Establishment unionist parties either voted for, or abstained, and thus agreed the poorest were to pay the price.
The stark truth is that we are not all in this together and the statistics prove the poorest are paying the price by being made poorer and the stats show, in the same period of claimed austerity, that the richest 10% in the UK have more than doubled their personal wealth.
Fact is they cannot be suffering austerity if they are increasing your wealth. Not only that but they can only increase their wealth by taking more from the poorer people- it doesn’t grow on trees.
The first Tory move was to increase indirect tax, (VAT), and their next to decrease the highest tax rate of the very richest and Labour, led by the same class of leaders, went along with their former schoolmates choices.
Professional Yoons…… Evening ITV news May 6th , Gavin Essler pondered is this us past the stage “people are now labelling PEEK NAT” ……. Then on Shareen Nanjiani’s Saturday morning Headless Chit Chat In on Radio Scotland some Free lance journalist Peter Ross managed to tell listeners that Scotland is now past “PEEK NAT”.…. More chance that these Desperados are past PEEK BRAIN CELLS
Their leadership have funded a Party whose leadership caused a catastrophic illegal wars and bankrupted Britain. Causing death, poverty, hardship and the worst migration crisis since WW11
If you’re a bus driver for example, you have no choice but to pay your union dues, docked from your pay each week by unions like TGWU or UNITE and UNISON public sector workers, who all then give the Labour party millions each year. Thatcher made them have a ten year ballot on it but hardly one bothers.
The Greens show their duplicity acting in the interest of publicity not the majority. Creating conflict wasting £Million/Billions of public money, making people’s harder and telling lies. Luddites.
The SNP Gov is one of the most Green gov in Europe. Reaches targets and sets higher targets.
O/T
@ Call me dave says at 12:23 pm …. ”All happening at about 2pm…ish.”
link to scottishparliament.tv
I’m just waiting to see bullyboy Rennie, the vicious, malicious stalker, targeting Shona Robinson when she’s vulnerable and no doubt feeling down. If not today some time soon …. over and over and over again.
Chin up Shona we’re all behind you.
The green MSP Mark Ruskell took part in a demo alongside Alex Rowley and Clare Baker against the £30 million of cuts to Fife NHS.
I don’t know if he attended the demo at Fife house with trade union members Unite, unison, Labour politicians,
the left wing Fife peoples assembly who were all calling for an end to the cuts.
No gowf for the women at Muirfield and it’s off the Open venue list.
I expect that ‘once in a lifetime opportunity’ decision will not last for too long.
What a fuckin tool this bell-end Sayers is. Must have been using Fatso Baillie’s calculator !
O/T.
If any of our fabulous YES community here could please take a moment to sign this petition to save Bandeath Dog rescue centre, there would be a few hundred furry friends extremely grateful.
link to change.org
Heed tracker says @ 12.28
” you have no choice but to pay your union dues, docked from your pay each week by unions like TGWU or UNITE and UNISON public sector workers, who all then give the Labour party millions each year”
As a former trade union member in the seventies I did not have a problem in paying a levy to the Labour Party. I knew I was doing it when I joined the Union. However times and outlooks have changed.
But in a similar vein M.P’s and MSP’s of all parties claim vast sums in tax free allowances to fund their constituency offices. These funds come from the taxes which I pay. I have no say in how much is paid to political parties which I do not support.
Individual parties should sustain their own constituency offices from the funds they raise from their own supporters.
I believe then there would be closer scrutiny of their expenditure and far less abuse. e.g. employment of family members at inflated salaries.
Also, all M.P’s personal expenses should be taxed. Before I retired any limited expenses which I claimed were paid to me in my salary and taxed through PAYE. It seems incongruent that M.P’s and some MSP’s like to bang on about others not paying their due amount of tax, while they are filling their boots on tax free expenses.
@Toby
Your expenses should not be taxed. That’s the point. If your employer skimmed of cash then I’d have a word with them.
@Petra 11.55am
The fallout from Brexit is going to run deep in rUK.
If the vote is to stay then the other European leaders are going to punish just as Westminster has. The stock response to any UK calls for change in the EU will be – you voted to stay in, you knew the rules, now shut up and start co-operating.
A leave vote will not be accepted. A second referendum will follow.
Either way there is going to be a storm.
Ah well, what goes around comes around.
I’ve always paid tax on my travel expenses, system is totally shit.
Peffers: “I have never ever claimed to be omnipotent, Socrates. Nor have I ever objected to being corrected for my mistakes.”
Brilliant. I think you mean omniscient. Omnipotence relates to power rather than knowledge.
You’re welcome.
When you were adding up the yes votes, you forget to include TUSC Scotland, so the 2016 figure will be even higher (only slightly) than 48.3%.