Papers please
With the official campaigns now over a year old, we can’t help wondering whether “Better Together Glasgow” shouldn’t have been launched before now.
But this is a funny sort of “public meeting”, isn’t it?
The last “Better Together” public event didn’t go so well. It was a shambolic affair, attended by a number of independence supporters asking awkward questions, and led to embarrassing scenes as the No campaign’s director Blair McDougall frantically dodged our offer to set up and pay for a public debate (with a neutral host) between his chairman Alistair Darling and Yes Scotland’s public face, Dennis Canavan.
Clearly, BT don’t want another fiasco with the actual public attending one of their public meetings, so they’ve organised a secret one. To be allowed into their latest shindig, you’ll have to jump through all sorts of hoops, including registering your home address, email address and phone number, in order to be permitted to know the undisclosed location for the event.
There’s no opt-out anywhere in the registration process, so by doing so you’re opening yourself up to be bombarded with spam marketing emails and telephone calls, in accordance with the “privacy policy” of Eventbrite, the facilitators of the registration scheme. (Their policy is, you have no privacy.)
“Better Together”, of course, has form in this regard.
We know that the No campaign is desperate to avoid actually debating independence with anyone. They’ve tried to silence this site and others with legal threats. They’ve tried to bully us by sending smear dossiers to the media. They censor and ban huge numbers of people from their Facebook page. They try to shut down Yes Scotland stalls by not turning up to fairs and galas and then claiming that the presence of Yes campaigners is an imbalance, or wasting police time with spurious complaints, or threatening people with violence.
But this is surely a new low. Holding a supposedly public meeting in a secret location that the public can’t turn up at without being pre-vetted and handing over their personal information to spammers? Is Alistair Darling really so frightened of having to deal with anything that hasn’t been script-approved beforehand?
(To opt out of Eventbrite spam, you have to plough through ANOTHER tedious registration process to get a company account, then dig your way through the settings to find the option that lets you turn marketing messages off.)
Going along to such events isn’t infiltration and it isn’t sabotage. This is, according to BT, a “public meeting”, not a gathering exclusively for No supporters. And since we can’t count on the media to ask them the questions that need answered, and asking ourselves via Twitter or email or phone call never gets a response, going along and doing it face to face seems the only way.
Luckily, we have some spammable email addresses and telephone numbers we can use for situations such as this, so if you’d like to attend BT’s Glasgow “launch” and put some pertinent, polite questions to their chairman (We suggest, purely by way of example, “Why won’t you debate your opposite number Dennis Canavan in public?”), drop us a line via our Contact page and we’ll see what we can do for you.
So …..’the three Scottish Party Leaders will be there’…. Ms Lamont will be there?
Absolutely amazing.
Couldn’t you just find out the details and make them public to the rest of us? I’m not sure how they intend to stop people coming if they know the time and place. Bouncers? A ticketing system?
Nice to see Darling and all three leaders will be turning up, incidentally. Not one of them turned up at their Aberdeen “launch”. Central belt bias to the very last!
“Couldn’t you just find out the details and make them public to the rest of us? I’m not sure how they intend to stop people coming if they know the time and place. Bouncers? A ticketing system?”
Yes, the registration process is set up as “tickets”, so you’ll probably need to have your name checked off on a list to be let in.
From the postcode on the BT page it’s Blysthwood Square Hotel, G2 4AD
link to bettertogether.net
Duh that’s the postcode for their offices as well!!
I presumed the RSVP was so they could choose which telephone box would be big enough.
We’ll need photos to put through the people counter to check the size of the fear multiplier, so if there were 20 there and BT say 100 we can use that to say that any scary fact that they produce has been exaggerated by a factor of 5. That should cut a lot of their storys down to size.
Come now. We’ll be bullying and intimidating them By turning up! AND asking questions! That’s what they would say…but what I never understand is…isn’t it their job to convince us to vote their way? So they should be encouraging us, more so than no voters, to turn up.
Does it say anywhere that there are no recording devices allowed…?
This takes me back to the days of proper raves. The location was supplied to those in the know at the last minute. Great fun.
I’ll bet this meeting is in an old barn just outside Leuchars.
Maybe the BT squad are all E heads, so need to keep the Ministry of Shite a secret. Is Darling actually Digweed?
I got my invitation by email at 11.38am today, but didn’t notice until ten minutes ago as it was in my junk folder – how apt.
They seem to think am a supporter as I liked their fb page, cannot be for any other reason!
God almighty it’s getting beyond the joke now. Next venue will be Tracey Island I presume. It’s getting bad when their meetings are organised in such a furtive way. I expect them to fighting each other like ferrets in a sack by next March.
No-one would dare make this stuff up – priceless.
Davidson, Rennie and Lamont will be joining Alistair Darling for what should be the biggest No Scotland event yet, and they’re trying to pitch it as a ‘public meeting’ while keeping the location secret? It’s beyond farcical.
“Davidson, Rennie and Lamont will be joining Alistair Darling for what should be the biggest No Scotland event yet, and they’re trying to pitch it as a ‘public meeting’ while keeping the location secret?”
AND vetting the audience 😀
I presume the location is secret so Yes can’t turn up and call the polis for having the temerity to have a public meeting without allowing the Yes campaign to have one too!
Just joined their mailing list. Let’s see if an invite is forthcoming.
If anyone is minded to go it looks like it’s only going to last one hour.
Er, from my inbox from YES Dundee.
Same system RSVP
Yes Dundee have organised a fantastic folk evening to raise funds for the local campaign. This is a great opportunity to relax with other Yes supporters with an impressive line-up of local talent including Sheena Wellington who opened the Scottish Parliament’s first session in 1999 with her spectacular rendition of Robert Burns’ ‘A Mans A Man For A That.’
Our other acts include:
Amber Road
Delilahs & the Samsons
Andrew Murray Scott
Colin Westwood
It looks like a fantastic night so please do let us know that you’re coming by RSVPing here. Feel free to bring along friends and family if you can.
many thanks, Tony
Yes Dundee
Yes Scotland
http://www.yesscotland.net/
“Er, from my inbox from YES Dundee.
Same system RSVP”
That’s hardly a “public meeting”, though, is it? It’s a folk evening, not “a chance to ask questions and raise issues”. And more relevantly, it tells you where it’s happening.
Are we having mass registration now to keep them up every night until the weekend vetting all applicants?
The media will know where it is, so all that we need is a pro-indy journa… oh.
This is going to end up like a Benny Hill sketch, with No Scotland’s big guns being pursued by invited guests they didn’t realise are actually Yes supporters, all followed by the Police, and the rest of the Press, and finally, by those of us who just happen to be in ‘a central Glasgow location’ at lunchtime on Saturday…
This is embarrassing twattery of the highest order…………..Public debates/events are not suppoed to be vetted in a democracy but then we know they are scared of being shown up as a bunch of charlatans with nothing but smearing to offer.
@sneddon
Next venue will be Tracey Island I presume.
That is about the only thing that would persuade me to attend a Better No event. Now you mention it I will look out for the strings next time I see Alistair Darling on TV.
Not talking to the public and avoiding any questions, never mind difficult ones, seems to be a real thread running through the No Scotland campaign. The amazing thing is they have managed to get all their media partners involved in this communication lockdown starting with the BBC closing down comments on all political articles but only in Scotland. Freedom of speech is only useful when someone can hear you.
The Fosters adverts on TV have more credulance than BT
O/T propaganda suggestion. In any posts where WW1 is the subject use any of … bloodbath, slaughter, butchery to describe it.
“Holding a supposedly public meeting in a secret location that the public can’t turn up at without being pre-vetted and handing over their personal information to spammers?”
They’ll be looking through people’s email accounts next*.
* they won’t **
** unless proven otherwise
The silly buggers would have been better holding on 21st September- there won’t be an active Yes voter in town.
Today I googled Scottish Independence Better Together censorship and up popped a google sponsored advertisement. (would add a screenshot but don’t know how) Why spend so much on both FB and Google ads yet still be so reluctant to engage with anyone? Crazy.
This sounds like a story from bbc scotlandshire!
I wonder what happens if you just call the number they give and say you don’t have access to an e mail account, after all not everyone does.
@Hector there’s a difference between planning how many sausage rolls you’ll need for the half time buffet and, well, you know.
They do not need a public audience in attendance because the BBC and Scottish MSM will report every soundbite extensively. Their campaign is not ‘grassroots’ but via state propaganda. We are witnessing a Soviet style campaign and I won’t be surprised if we are soon reading in the newspapers AD’s speeches punctuated with bracketed comments such as (the crowd gave a sustained and thunderous applause). See Lenin’s/Stalin’s speeches for examples.
Well, it can’t be that hard to get in. I confidently predict a tweet telling us that well over 500 people were there!
Tom – Do you think they’ll let me take ma wee dug as he likes sausage rolls 🙂
There is a flip side to this, which fuels the McMillanesque angle. If BT feel that they cannot hold a genuine public meeting, what does that say about democracy? Is it us, or is it them?
I dont know about Tracey Island, but the 5th floor at Grace Brothers is available. The only question is who gets to play Willie Rennie?
“undisclosed location for the event”
Rangers V East Fife – Sat 31 Aug 15:00
@sneddon But is your wee dug really a big dug? That’s what we do. Apparently. link to youtu.be
@G Campbell,
Being a silly paranoid nat, I used a different email from the one I used when signing up to the Yes mailing list. Totally ridiculous on my part, it’s not as if there’s ANY possible way anyone could cross reference the two lists without there having been a massive security breach somewhere along the line. And as we all know if something as far fetched as that had happened it would be headline news. 😉
“Glasgow local group”
link to 31.media.tumblr.com
They’ll do what Blair did at the big Iraq rally back in 2003 – deliver their spiel three or four hours earlier than billed, then bolt. Then Police Scotland will announce that they’ve been asked to investigate some Calmanballs about a mysterious threat from CyberNats.
It’s just too dodgy for them – it only takes one or two vocal protesters (as we saw at the calamitous Iain Duncan Smith gig) to wreck the whole thing. They’d be better off holding it in Rwanda.
Don’t you think Better Together skulking around like this is actually losing them support? This surely demonstrates their lack of belief in their own argument.
When it comes to the day of the vote it will be real people putting an “X” in a box.
link to 4.bp.blogspot.com
Any takers on it being held in the centre circle at Ibrox? Are the light blues at home… that would give them an attendance of over forty thousand!
SCOTLAND’S LARGEST EVER ‘PUBLIC’ MEETING!
Maybe the three party leaders will arrive in raincoats, wigs & moustaches and begin their speeches with “I shall say zis only once…..”
“Yes Scotland’s public face, Dennis Canavan”
Salmond is Yes Scotland’s public face, I highly doubt the vast majority of the Scottish population are even aware that Canavan is associated with it – even more so for wee Blair.
“Salmond is Yes Scotland’s public face”
Salmond isn’t a member of Yes Scotland at all. If you mean “independence movement”, say “independence movement”.
They could be auditioning for
link to bbc.co.uk
They do not need a public audience in attendance because the BBC and Scottish MSM will report every soundbite extensively. Their campaign is not ‘grassroots’ but via state propaganda.
Yes, that’s pretty much it. They can’t do a big grassroots campaign because the support just isn’t there. They might be doing ok in straight Y/N polls, but dig deeper and we see how weak the lead is. A good majority for independence is there, it’s just nerves and/or people reluctant to say so.
“Salmond isn’t a member of Yes Scotland at all. If you mean“independence movement”, say “independence movement”.”
No, I mean Yes Scotland/the SNP. They are one and the same.
Oh- oh . . . Troll alert.
“A good majority for independence is there, it’s just nerves and/or people reluctant to say so.”
So when people say in private polls that they plan to vote ‘no’, they actually mean they’re planning to vote ‘yes’ but they’re apparently too nervous or reluctant to admit that in a private poll?
How odd.
pubic please be a good troll and get back under your bridge
Albaha : “If anyone is minded to go it looks like it’s only going to last one hour”
Standard time for any No Scotland activity. They turn up, have their photos taken, then bugger off again. They appeared outside Marks & Spencer in Aberdeen a few Saturdays ago, making a big deal of it. An hour later they’d buggered off. Meanwhile, the Yes stand was still going strong several hours later!
Part-timers, that’s what they are.
They run and hide from open, free debate, happy and content that the Biased Better Corporation and their friends in the MSM can do the job for them. Shocking behaviour. Bordering on criminal.
YES Scotland.
*ANTAGONISTIC POST KLAXON*
I’m sure you all recognize ‘Publius’ from his recent appearances in the august pages of the Hootsman comments.
Treat him gently for he is a trolling Unionist tit.
Go away.
“I wonder what happens if you just call the number they give and say you don’t have access to an e mail account, after all not everyone does.”
than they’ll no let ye in cos yer too poor and to stupit
Oh God, another one
“Treat him gently for he is a trolling Unionist tit.”
Presumably you have evidence from my apparent Scotsman appearances to prove that I’m either a ‘unionist’ or a ‘troll’?
Note: being critical of the SNP and even Yes Scotland is NOT evidence that someone is a unionist.
” We are witnessing a Soviet style campaign and I won’t be surprised if we are soon reading in the newspapers AD’s speeches punctuated with bracketed comments such as (the crowd gave a sustained and thunderous applause). See Lenin’s/Stalin’s speeches for examples.”
mibbe they’ll bus awbody in from the local tractor factory tae clap, AT the the appropriate times of course , which will be ably orchestrated by the big men with stern faces?
@PCSA
I have found a lot of the No vote to be reluctant No’s-they want an Indy Scotland but are unsure if it’s the right time or whether we can afford it.Very rarely do you meet a fundamentalist type unionist.More common is the adamant No.More common than that is the reluctant No.
Surely it will be possible to turn up and try to get in when the venue is discovered?
O/T
There were two very significant statements in the article in today’s Record.
“A lot of my support (for England)came from being repeatedly told that England subsidised Scotland, and I took that as an article of faith. When I looked into myself I was very surpised to learn that it was a lie and that, in actual fact, Scotland subsidises England, in relative terms.”
and
“Approximately 10 per cent of the SNP membership is English.”
@DougDaniel
Given there are four of them, Darling, Lamont, Davidson and Rennie all presumably going to speak hardly leaves any time for q and a.
They’re ‘re all so immersed in the stage management of politics.
We can only hope after a YES vote we can begin to change this way of doing things, no guarantees, but at least it gives us a chance.
@Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
‘Note: being critical of the SNP and even Yes Scotland is NOT evidence that someone is a unionist.’
They just correlate 99 times out of 100. Perhaps you can be the exception that proves the rule.
“Is Alistair Darling really so frightened of having to deal with anything that hasn’t been script-approved beforehand?”
YES.
Do all SNP supporters believe that someone is a ‘unionist troll’ if they criticise the SNP, regardless of expressing support for independence, or is it just a few of them on here and other places?
“Do all SNP supporters believe that someone is a ‘unionist troll’ if they criticise the SNP, regardless of expressing support for independence, or is it just a few of them on here and other places?”
Depends if they do it in a troll-like manner, such as making the stupid assertion that Alex Salmond is part of Yes Scotland, when he simply isn’t.
@ Gill – Screenshots are simple, let me help you. I use the keyboard in this way
1. Hold down the Ctrl key and up at the top right of your keyboard you will see a key Prt Scr. Click on that and your screenshot has now been saved as an image in your computer, albeit hidden.
2. You can now open up Paint by going to Start, All Progams, Accessories and clicking on Paint. You will be presented with a blank palette so go to Edit and then Paste. Your screenshot will be pasted and then its File, Save As. Give it a name and choose your type of file – I normally use JPEG. Save it to a folder where you can find it later.
3. You are now able to send this file as an attachment.
Hope this helps but I am still using Windows XP so it might be different in newer versions of Windows.
“They just correlate 99 times out of 100. Perhaps you can be the exception that proves the rule.”
I am. I’m no fan of the SNP and don’t like their version of independence or their referendum strategy, but I’m certainly an independence supporter.
The only criticism I give in regard to Yes Scotland or the SNP’s referendum strategy is constructive criticism that is intended to improve our chances of getting independence.
There is sometimes that kneejerk reaction PCSA.Personally,I welcome your input.
So when people say in private polls that they plan to vote ‘no’, they actually mean they’re planning to vote ‘yes’ but they’re apparently too nervous or reluctant to admit that in a private poll? How odd.
It’s not really. Firstly, someone sitting in your living room (TNS) or talking to you personally on the phone (could be a nice lady from MORI in London) isn’t private at all. They ask your age, what you do, where you live, have your phone number etc. Online polls are a bit more private. Can make people a little shy; don’t want to be seen as ‘anti-english’ or ‘wanting to break up Britain’ maybe…
Have a look at 1992 for a classic example of a ‘shy’ factor. The ‘shy Tory’ factor was a hell of a headache for pollsters; had them all predicting a Labour victory. Oops.
Or look at polls just after the 1997 Labour landslide. ~59% supported Labour just a few weeks after they got 43% in an election. That’s ~16% telling porky pies because they feel that’s what they should be saying, not what they actually believe/did.
link to ukpollingreport.co.uk
That or the 2011 SGE which was entirely predictable even though Labour were way out in front (40%+) just a matter of weeks beforehand with the SNP at a new low of close to 30%. Got 45% in the end. That wasn’t a shy factor, but to do with a last gasp ‘Oh God the Tories are back should vote Labour as always but it didn’t work in 2010 so fuck that as I planned to vote SNP as I said when polled during 2009 (SNP 40%+) and hello defecting libs.
People don’t tell the truth in polls commonly if they feel they might be ostracised for it. Or they state they’ll do something they are actually not strongly for and end up doing the opposite.
Y/N polls will become better predictors of the outcome very close to the day.
“Do you think they’ll let me take ma wee dug as he likes sausage rolls :)”
ma wee dug likes sausage rolls as well, dae ye think that’ll be the password?
ma we dug likes sausage rolls,
come awa in yer aricht
mibbie if we a tak our wee dugs we kin eat thum oot o sausage rolls thatll really scunner thum eh?
PCSA
Maybe you should debate.
Pubic- No not everyone who critcises SNP/YES is a unionist troll but you are.
“Rangers V East Fife – Sat 31 Aug 15:00”
aw cumon whos gonnie eat a thon sausage rolls? the wee dugs?
PCSA does have a Norsewarrior quality to his posts.
Stick an orange sash on, and you’ll get in without even giving your name.
I honestly expect such a meeting to be filled with Matheson’s orangey friends. Better together takes dancing with the devil to a whole lower level.
Truth be told, there is NO positive case for the union, and the better together leadership know it, they just want to make sure their supporters never find out how they are being lied to.
A shameful bunch.
“No not everyone who critcises SNP/YES is a unionist troll but you are.”
In which case presumably you’ll have evidence to back up that claim?
Sounds like a classic New Labour public meeting. As stage managed as a Politburo annual tractor factory production target celebration. All hecklers removed even if they are octogenarian paid up party members. It is what they are most comfortable with.
““Glasgow local group”
thanks a lot I was eatin soup,
do you know how much mess pea and ham makes of a screen?
No Publius its just one of those misconceptions ,the same as some Labour supporters who think anyone who criticises the Labour Party is a ‘gnat’ when the reality is they’re actually just got common sense.
“such as making the stupid assertion that Alex Salmond is part of Yes Scotland, when he simply isn’t.”
My problem with Yes Scotland, and wee Blair Jenkins, is that they ONLY promote the SNP’s version of independence – EU membership, currency union, keeping the monarchy etc etc – and ignore the independence policies or plans or alternative ideas from any other parties or organisations.
The Greens and SSP are opposed to keeping the monarchy for example – and yet its ONLY the policy of keeping the monarchy that Yes Scotland promote.
Likewise, literally every public statement from Blair Jenkins reads like an SNP press release that he is repeating word-for-word.
In order to win the referendum we need to attract non-SNP voters to the cause, Yes Scotland’s current strategy won’t do that.
I honestly expect such a meeting to be filled with Matheson’s orangey friends.
Yes of course, why do you think they’re being so private about it? There will no doubt be a large contingent from the OO turn up. Possibly some union jack wavers with Irish flags and matches for sale. A minority, but a vocal one and concentrated locally.
@Publius
Treat him gently for he is a trolling Unionist tit.”
Presumably you have evidence from my apparent Scotsman appearances to prove that I’m either a ‘unionist’ or a ‘troll’?
Interesting you require no evidence that you’re a tit though.
and yet its ONLY the policy of keeping the monarchy that Yes Scotland promote.
Have you evidence for this?
@Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus. Wasn’t he the Roman general whose army fell to pieces when the Celts left it?
In that case, very apt for a Better Together diddy with a pretentious moniker like that.
Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
Sorry, but you seemed to have missed the fact that there will be an election after a successful independence vote. If Greens and/or SSP win then there goes the monarchy.
As you aspire to be an ancient Roman you will not understand democracy.
The referendum is not an election!
“Have you evidence for this?”
Yes. Take a look at Yes Scotland’s website, which is probably one of the main sources for undecided Scots to find out about independence.
It states that Scotland will “remain a monarchy” and will “remain an integral part of the EU” – both SNP policies.
It doesn’t even suggest the possibility that Scotland could leave the EU or become a republic – despite the fact that doing so could potentially attract republican or anti-EU Scots to vote yes.
“It states that Scotland will “remain a monarchy” and will “remain an integral part of the EU” – both SNP policies.”
This will be the immediate case, because the SNP will remain the government until 2016 at least. And no credible Scottish party currently has a policy of leaving the EU, so that also seems a fair statement. What the Yes Scotland site ACTUALLY says about the monarchy is this:
“Scotland is currently a monarchy and will remain so until the people of Scotland decide otherwise.
The proposal of the current Scottish Government, which will feature in the white paper on independence due to be published in 2013, is that with independence, the Queen will remain Head of State in Scotland.”
My emphases. Odd that you’d choose to leave those rather important and pertinent bits out.
link to yesscotland.net
“As you aspire to be an ancient Roman you will not understand democracy.”
Perhaps you should learn about the Romans?
“I’m an I dependence supporter but don’t like anyone on the side of independence, their methods and have nothing positive to suggest”
Oooh, we’ve been here before so many times
g campbell
what about this for a yes campaign nicht?
“Sorry, but you seemed to have missed the fact that there will be an election after a successful independence vote. If Greens and/or SSP win then there goes the monarchy”
Yes exactly! But the problem is that Yes Scotland are NOT promoting the possibility that Scotland won’t necessarily retain the monarchy or remain part of the EU – despite the fact that doing so could potentially attract more voters.
They are ONLY promoting the SNP’s version of ‘independence’.
“But the problem is that Yes Scotland are NOT promoting the possibility that Scotland won’t necessarily retain the monarchy or remain part of the EU”
You’ve been given links to two different pages on the Yes Scotland site now, both proving that claim to be wrong. That’s why people think you’re trolling.
The Roman republic was venal, corrupt, had vote selling, dodgy contracts, screwed the troops over and concerned itself with the trappings of empire
Perfect for a Unionist
nae link bummer
ok I’ll try again
what about this for a yes campaign nicht oot g campbell?
Salmond is Yes Scotland’s public face, I highly doubt the vast majority of the Scottish population are even aware that Canavan is associated with it – even more so for wee Blair.
I disagree, Salmond has been pretty much at arms length over the last year. Nicola is the SNP representative on Yes Scotland. She is a public face and if the opinion polls are to be believed more popular than Salmond.
I am not a member of any party although I did once lean heavily to Labour. I have voted SNP in the last couple of elections but I have some sympathies with the SSP and the Greens. Yes Scotland is a lot more than just the SNP although as a political party with more members than Labour, Tories and Liberals combined it will obviously supply a lot of the boots on the ground. That is pretty much inevitable. Just as Labour is the mainstay of Better Together.
However a lot of the more well known names from musicians, actors, poets, artists etc., that are involved many are not associated with a specific party. This is good and will come more to the fore as the campaigning heads into television broadcasts, newspaper adverts and so on.
“I’m an I dependence supporter but don’t like anyone on the side of independence, their methods and have nothing positive to suggest”
If you’re attempting to suggest that’s me then you are completely wrong I’m afraid.
I like the Scottish Greens and I’m clearly suggesting positive ways in which we can improve our chances of winning the referendum – such as Yes Scotland promoting the policies of other parties and organisations, not just the SNPs.
Yes. Take a look at Yes Scotland’s website, which is probably one of the main sources for undecided Scots to find out about independence.
Why do you feel the need to lie? The Yes Scotland site says this:
link to yesscotland.net
A: The Scottish Government’s proposal is that the Queen remains Head of State in Scotland, in the same way as she is currently Head of State in independent nations such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
This would be the position for as long as the people of Scotland wished our country to remain a monarchy.
Telling porkies isn’t the way to win people over.
“In which case presumably you’ll have evidence to back up that claim?”
“No, I mean Yes Scotland/the SNP. They are one and the same.”
YesScotland has some 300,000 supporters, the SNP 25,000. Some similarity.
Out of your own trolling mouth. Bye
Quite a few of us on Fb have applied for tickets to the BT secret meeting…but we’re still waiting on our emails to tell us where to go. We decided that although it was termed a ‘public’ meeting, we’d better book tickets just in case they refused us entry…. 🙂
Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
Ah see – you got Bush / Blair military conquest take on democracy.
Another positive move which I believe could attract more voters to the yes campaign is if the SNP promise us a referendum on EU membership and the currency union.
At the moment they are planning to make Scotland become an EU member and form a currency union after a yes vote without giving the people of Scotland a choice – with the intention that we’ll become an EU member on independence day in 2016, before the next election.
However, promising us a referendum on EU membership first could potentially attract the 40% or so of Scots who are opposed to the EU to vote yes – at the moment there is the danger that they could vote no in order to get the UK EU referendum in 2017.
“This will be the immediate case, because the SNP will remain the government until 2016 at least”
But surely independence is about the long-term future and Yes Scotland should be promoting all the possible plans, policies and ideas that independence could bring over the next couple of decades at least, rather than just the two years after a yes vote?
Don’t you agree that we need to attract non-SNP voters to the cause if we’re to have any chance of winning, and that purely promoting the SNP’s version of independence is unlikely to do that?
“Don’t you agree that we need to attract non-SNP voters to the cause if we’re to have any chance of winning,
Yes.
and that purely promoting the SNP’s version of independence is unlikely to do that?”
Since the Yes Scotland site quite demonstrably doesn’t do that, it’s a false question. But to deal with your wider point, no, I don’t think there’s any mileage in trying to appeal to the sort of right-wing loon who wants out of the EU. Those people aren’t going to vote Yes in a million years, because there’s enormously more chance of leaving the EU by staying in the Union.
Plus, if there’s a prospect of leaving the EU, half the people currently planning to vote Yes would change their minds.
@Handclapping.
YesScotland has some 300,000 supporters, the SNP 25,000. Some similarity.
Thats where you are wrong, each and every member of Yes Scotland is a secret undercover SNP member that has not registered with the SNP.
Its a cunning plan by that mad man Alex Salmond – its all his fault you know.
“YesScotland has some 300,000 supporters, the SNP 25,000. Some similarity.”
The SNP only have 25,000 supporters?! Are you sure?
Publius
as I hear and understand it the day after a yes vote those things would remain the same. That is a fact of the situation, not a reflection of SNP policy. The media make the same mix up. (Deliberate or otherwise)
Each party can then put forward their policies to be elected for; monarchy, EU etc.
@ PCSA – My that some affliction.
Its all Alex Salmonds fault you know……………
Another positive move which I believe could attract more voters to the yes campaign is if the SNP promise us a referendum on EU membership and the currency union.
Now that’s a reasonable suggestion. Are the Scottish Tories proposing an EU referendum for an independent Scotland? How about Scottish UKIP? What about Labour and the Libs?
I guess if you are not keen on the SNP’s policy, is not to vote for them. It’s easy. I’ve done it.
I vote for parties that plan for every outcome. I await Lab/Tory/Lib manifestos for post indy in Scotland.
@Publius
I like the Scottish Greens and I’m clearly suggesting positive ways in which we can improve our chances of winning the referendum – such as Yes Scotland promoting the policies of other parties and organisations, not just the SNPs.
I don’t know, Publius, I just kind of feel we’ve had this conversation before somewhere. It seems quite familiar, somehow.
“And no credible Scottish party currently has a policy of leaving the EU”
But polls suggest around 40% of Scots are opposed to the EU. Shouldn’t the yes campaign be attempting to attract them by making clear that Scotland doesn’t necessarily have to remain an “integral part” of the EU once its independent?
“But polls suggest around 40% of Scots are opposed to the EU.”
No they don’t. More like 34%.
I vote for parties that plan for every outcome. I await Lab/Tory/Lib manifestos for post indy in Scotland.
They are due soon – Easter 2015 😉 Never to soon.
“No, I mean Yes Scotland/the SNP. They are one and the same.”
elaborate?
Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
What’s your view on nukes? Where should they go, Ancient Roman military imperialist aside, you being a Green and all?
“I don’t think there’s any mileage in trying to appeal to the sort of person who wants out of the EU. Those people aren’t going to vote Yes in a million years”
I personally know of several Scots who dislike the EU but who support independence.
There are at least some independence supporters who would prefer that we join EFTA rather than the EU, like Norway.
There is no guarantee that a number of undecided or current no voters who dislike the EU won’t be persuaded to vote yes by the prospect that we won’t necessarily have to remain part of the EU – we need all the votes we can get, we can’t afford to reject potentially 40% of the Scottish population simply because they don’t like the EU, that would be suicide.
PCSA sounds like someone who was on telly last week only they have come here in drag.
@ Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus: But the problem is that Yes Scotland are NOT promoting the possibility that Scotland won’t necessarily retain the monarchy or remain part of the EU – despite the fact that doing so could potentially attract more voters.
They are ONLY promoting the SNP’s version of ‘independence’.
Since the SNP are by far the largest pro-Indy party in terms of members and power, Yes Scotland has a proportionate emphasis on SNP policy. The SSP and Greens don’t have nearly as many members, so they don’t get nearly as much airplay. I will say, however, that Yes Scotland are doing a grand job of showing solidarity with other groups like LFI despite the historic feud between Labour and SNP.
But polls suggest around 40% of Scots are opposed to the EU.
Links please. This figure seems very high.
link to whatscotlandthinks.org
“No they don’t. More like 34%.”
link to newsnetscotland.com
“http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/4494-scots-equally-split-over-eu-membership”
An outlier. All other polls on the subject show a clear majority in favour of staying in. Plus see scottish_skier’s link.
“if there’s a prospect of leaving the EU, half the people currently planning to vote Yes would change their minds.”
Really? So half the people currently planning to vote yes value EU membership higher than the opportunity to gain independence?
“So half the people currently planning to vote yes value EU membership higher than the opportunity to gain independence?”
Very possibly. I’d certainly think very hard indeed about voting for an independent Scotland that was going to be outside Europe. But this is all somewhat off the point. I take it you concede your previous claims about Yes Scotland are bollocks?
Oh and there’s this on the EU too.
The prospect of being pulled out by the rUK fairly ramps up a Yes to indy.
link to whatscotlandthinks.org
“Note: being critical of the SNP and even Yes Scotland is NOT evidence that someone is a unionist.”
which makes you norsewarrior or a doppelganger, either way you presence will provide nothing for you, so why dont you move along?
“Of people who expressed an opinion, 50% of Scots supported staying in the EU, and 50% wanted to leave the EU”
link to newsnetscotland.com
Just a wee plug for a public event I’m organising on 7th September in St Andrews Church Hall, King Street, Dundee DD12JD on behalf of Yes Dundee if anyone would care to come along I’d be delighted to see you all!
Its a ‘ Yes Drop In Cafe’ with former Dundee Labour MP John McAllion and MSP Shona Robison speaking and on hand to answer as many questions as you like! Us Yes people don’t run away from questions and anyone is invited to our public meetings!
Proceedings start at 11am .. John McAllion giving a short talk at 11.30 and Shona Robison at 12.00 both will be on hand for coffee, cake and questions!
Hope to see some of you there! Make yourself known to me!
Another positive move which I believe could attract more voters to the yes campaign is if the SNP promise us a referendum on EU membership and the currency union.
Perhaps but for every positive there is a negative. Why attract one voter if in the process you repel two. My concern is that we secure independence first. In 2016 we will have an opportunity to ratify the SNP vision and proposals. I’m guessing if we secure a Yes vote there will be a frantic scramble by the other parties to develop and offer an alternative vision. If not hell mend them.
link to amazon.co.uk
Using your logic people will vote no because the EU has more control over Scotland than Westminster, nonsense.
Latin Person (can’t be bothered) who hates anything to do with SNP
Eh correction; the best way to get a campaign somewhere is to stick together & stay focused. Anyone with considered opinion, should realise we are in a monarchy situation at the moment unfortunately (and I am no royalist), but to suggest introducing thoughts of a republic at this stage could also potentially lose as many votes. Surely you realise that such decisions are best made and have more chance of success in an independent nation state after achieving that goal. Moving to a republic is a decision best made by the people of Scotland and no one else, no politicians, no clergy & no peers. I personally have not met any republicans who don’t think that this is the best vehicle for such a goal, at this point in the process, so I disagree.
If you’re and independence supporter and you’re gripe is with the SNP, then please explain how the hell we were to get to the stage of a referendum without them because I’d really like to hear it.
“Since the SNP are by far the largest pro-Indy party in terms of members and power, Yes Scotland has a proportionate emphasis on SNP policy”
Yes but the referendum isn’t about which party is the largest, its about attracting as many people as we can get to vote yes, regardless of the party they support.
Yes Scotland should be promoting all potential independence policies, plans and ideas in order to attract as many people as possible from across the entire political spectrum.
“Yes Scotland should be promoting all potential independence policies, plans and ideas in order to attract as many people as possible from across the entire political spectrum.”
They do, and if you keep insisting otherwise when you’ve been comprehensively shown to be wrong, I’m going to have no option but to conclude you ARE trolling and act accordingly.
I’ll ask this nice and plainly, and if I don’t get an answer consider yourself warned:
Do you now accept that the Yes Scotland website merely states the simple unchallenged fact that the monarchy will remain until Scots decide otherwise?
“Perhaps but for every positive there is a negative. Why attract one voter if in the process you repel two”
Who on earth would be repelled by the opportunity to make a democratic decision on the EU and what currency we use?
“My concern is that we secure independence first”
As is mine. Which is why I’m suggesting that the SNP promise us a referendum on the EU and currency in order to attract both pro and anti EU Scots to vote yes.
“Which is why I’m suggesting that the SNP promise us a referendum on the EU and currency in order to attract both pro and anti EU Scots to vote yes.”
In logical terms this is simply bollocks. Let’s look at it for the briefest moment.
– If you want to stay in the EU, a Yes vote is by far the safest move. David Cameron has already pledged a UK referendum, and a clear majority of UK voters currently say they want to leave, whereas a majority of Scots want to stay in.
– If you want to leave the EU, a No vote is by far the safest move. Even if the SNP promised a referendum, polls show that Scots would vote to stay in. So by a big margin your best chance is to be in the UK, where you’ll still get a referendum and polls show the opposite.
Couldn’t be clearer. Want out of the EU, vote No. We done? Smashing.
An outlier.
Yes, that’s the only one I’ve seen with equal Y/N. Probability says that will happen occasionally (also Yougov, which is questionable for Scotland). There is a decent minority against the EU, but then that’s healthy if you catch my drift.
” I’d certainly think very hard indeed about voting for an independent Scotland that was going to be outside Europe”
But I’m not suggesting that Scotland should be outside Europe – merely that Yes Scotland should at least suggest that possibility for the future (alongside the possibility that we’ll also become and remain an EU member) in order to attract anti-EU Scots to vote yes.
“es exactly! But the problem is that Yes Scotland are NOT promoting the possibility that Scotland won’t necessarily retain the monarchy or remain part of the EU – despite the fact that doing so could potentially attract more voters.”
Thats it guys, we’ve been rumbled, smartarse here has found us out, the SNP cant guarantee that the Scottish public will vote for acceptable policies, so its clear we cant prove the Scottish public wont turn into anti royalists who eat their own children after independence, damn it
if only that Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
hadnt found us out
“Do you now accept that the Yes Scotland website merely states the simple unchallenged fact that the monarchy will remain until Scots decide otherwise?”
Yes.
But in terms of the EU it only promotes the SNP’s version of remaining in it, and doesn’t even mention the possibility that Scotland could leave it, or join EFTA.
“Yes.
But in terms of the EU it only promotes the SNP’s version of remaining in it, and doesn’t even mention the possibility that Scotland could leave it, or join EFTA.”
Jolly good. Progress. Just one more – do you also accept that since NO party with a single elected MP/MSP in Scotland advocates leaving the EU, it is also a simple unquestionable fact that an independent Scotland would be staying in the EU for the forseeable future, and that speculating on events far into the future is beyond Yes Scotland’s remit?
(Even the Tories advocate staying in the EU, pending some renegotiation of terms, and they’re not going to be elected in Scotland any time soon anyway.)
“As is mine. Which is why I’m suggesting that the SNP promise us a referendum on the EU and currency in order to attract both pro and anti EU Scots to vote yes.”
heres a thought for you
why dont the SNP as a precondition of voting ask people to untie a gordian knot and only then let them vote?
The Romans never really prospered in Scotland. A good place to go do the Ozymandias thing is Cramond where you can contemplate Calgacus’ ‘they create a desert and call it peace’ and that you are living through the Decline and Fall of Pax Westminsterania. Just a suggestion of a better use of time for those enamoured of Rome.
It’s secret location is to prevent a crazed cybernat barging in with a dozen links round their neck and carrying aloft a box of bluebell matches
Latin Person (can’t be bothered) who hates anything to do with SNP
Same thing on EU as monarchy … at this stage could also potentially lose as many votes either way. Jeeezzuusss.
Yes Scotland should be promoting all potential independence policies, plans and ideas
They can’t. They can tell you what will be the immediate effect of independence (retain the monarchy, remain in the EU) but no one can list, never mind promote, all potential independence policies, plans and ideas. They can promote the idea that independence allows us to choose policies, plans and ideas. Some people will even pick up on that fact. Others will be aware of it and choose to ignore it, because they’re trolls.
But in terms of the EU it only promotes the SNP’s version of remaining in it, and doesn’t even mention the possibility that Scotland could leave it, or join EFTA.
You cannot join EFTA in the future if Scotland votes no. It isn’t policy of any UK party.
Och dinna tell me that on reading through these postings that there is going to be another resurrection of the four horsemen of the Scottish apocalypse.
I just came across this:
concern troll
link to urbandictionary.com
And thought – a-ha!
“But I’m not suggesting that Scotland should be outside Europe – merely that Yes Scotland should at least suggest that possibility for the future (alongside the possibility that we’ll also become and remain an EU member) in order to attract anti-EU Scots to vote yes. ”
your not Henry McLeish are you?
In truth the position on the EU represents all the parties’ point of view. I’m not sure whether the Greens would actually opt to leave or not. So in that respect I am not sure the position is wholly the SNP one. In fact don’t Better Together make a big deal of how unloved by the EU we will be. That we won’t need a referendum because Westminster, Madrid, Brussels will be falling over themselves to veto our entry. That they, Better Together, are the true voice of the EU not Yes Scotland the evil destroyers of EU unity?
I don’t care to join NATO either and I am much warmed by the Better Together message that we will not get in. This is good.
Anybody ??
Can we arrange a ticket for the Roman Geezer to attend the Better Together launch,
I think they deserve some of this stuff.
Thank you Archie [not Erchie]
Got it 🙂
From the Yes Scotland website re the EU :
“There are Yes supporters who are more sceptical about the reasons for Scotland becoming part of the EU. Yes Scotland is not a political party that will be standing for election in 2016, and of course it would be open to the Scottish electorate to return a government that did not support membership of the European Union at those elections.”
OK, Publius – got that?
@Inbhir Anainn
They need to have another photo of them looking down on us. We’ve all seen the last one now.
Is Nigel Farage keen on Roman history?
@HandandShrimp
Aye, I’m voting for Indy solely because the pro-union campaign have made it clear Scotland will be chucked out of the EU.
😉
Friends, Romans, countrymen… Join me!
But in terms of the EU it only promotes the SNP’s version of remaining in it, and doesn’t even mention the possibility that Scotland could leave it, or join EFTA.
Stay in the Union and ANY chance of EFTA will not exist.
SS
Of course I don’t believe everything I hear from No Scotland.
😉
Of course I don’t believe everything I hear from No Scotland
What? You mean they’re not telling the truth? Are people aware of that? Has there been a poll to see if people do think they are lying? How did Blair McDougall score?
PCSA… if you think politics works by everything changing at once, then… well, I dunno what to say to that.
There is a process here which gradually built over decades to the referendum next year. …after the referendum, the process doesn’t stop. There will always be choices, decisions and changes to be made, because we as humans inherently know that it’s the only way to progress. A time for everything and everything in its’ time!
O/T
Forgot to say – someone was asking for where to get wee flags etc for stalls at events & the March / Rally. Had trouble getting some from YES HQ ??
Poundland shops are doing a great wee pack of Saltires flags (proper colour 7″x 9″ cotton) 12 for £1
Just for info / Hope this helps out.
Christ, I can’t believe it this PBSC person is obviously Norse Warrior the false flag troll in disguise and yet many of you are entering into discussion with it. He has done the bit trolls are interested in and has taken the site way off topic trying to put it down. IGNORE IT.
“Christ, I can’t believe it this PBSC person is obviously Norse Warrior the false flag troll in disguise and yet many of you are entering into discussion with it.”
“take your concern elsewhere pal”
Please don’t make me remind you again of who gets to decide who posts here and who doesn’t, readers. Thanks.
There’s nothing wrong with a little debating practice now and again.
“My concern is that we secure independence first”
As is mine”
my arse, take your concern elsewhere pal
How did Blair McDougall score?
I think it was determined he needs to stay behind to do some remedial classes.
Help would be appreciated…
I’m trying to find some great examples of No campaign stupidity for a little project. Where’s the best place to find the choicest quotes? Thanks 🙂
I am told that Alistair Darling told a meeting in Edinburgh that a NO vote would reinvigorate Edinburgh. Interested to know how this could happen?
And on Saturday will no doubt say that a NO vote will reinvigorate Glasgow.
Do you think PCSA has disrupted the thread for a reason? Perhaps he doesn’t want any more discussion about the BT secret meeting.
Aw come on he was good fun ?? Mental …. but persistent.
Good practice though.
A suspect troll button please.;)
What have the romans ever done for us? 😉
I like doing the concern stuff, it is good practice and tones you up for real live debate.
“There’s nothing wrong with a little debating practice now and again.”
no problem with a little debating rev, but don’t like talking to trolls, that was/is norsewarrior, spent too much time and energy on him in the past
Oh you’ve got to love the BT squad haven’t you. I mean they’re advertising a public private meeting, or should that be a private public meeting or …… 😆
As we all know that all the MS</BBC/STV and probably even SKY will be in attendance at this publicly private public meeting perhaps some of our Glasgow “agents” could be parachuted into central Glasgow early on the morning of the 31st with orders to start tweeting/facebooking/e-mailing everyone as soon as any staff from BBC/STV/SKY are noticed entering and leaving a particular address, after all it is not that easy to hide a BBC/STV/SKY T.V. broadcast van is it? The T.V. companies would have to beam their footage back to HQ to get it aired as soon as possible after all. Everyone else could then start spreading the word as fast as possible. 😆
“Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus says:
26 August, 2013 at 9:17 pm
“No not everyone who critcises SNP/YES is a unionist troll but you are.”
In which case presumably you’ll have evidence to back up that claim?”
I get so tired and frustrated with this type of post .. instead of actually talking about the subject of the thread we end up talking about the person who posted the comment! The thread then disintegrates into ” X is crap” “No its not” “Yes it is” ” Prove it” ” No You Prove it” etc etc Its BORING and DISTRACTING from the real issue! Of course I suspect that may well be the intention!
If you really have nothing to contribute regarding the topic of the thread and only come on here to make incorrect unconstructive criticisms about the Yes Campaign and the SNP then I personally wish you wouldn’t bother! It’s neither informative nor helpful to the discussion.
I see Norsewarrior has managed to get a night shift.
I am told that Alistair Darling told a meeting in Edinburgh that a NO vote would reinvigorate Edinburgh.
In what way reinvigorate? Like bring it crashing to its knees as when he was chancellor? Under the current Scottish Government which is working under a recession, exports are up, inward investment is better than it was under Labour duting a boom and unemployment compares favourably with the rest of the UK. So what confection is he offering or is it just rat on a stick and he is C.M.O.T. Dibbler.
“Help would be appreciated…
I’m trying to find some great examples of No campaign stupidity for a little project. Where’s the best place to find the choicest quotes? Thanks”
you’ll not do better than the comments (especially on Alan Cochranes posts) on the Scottish telegraph, some of the zoomers on there have to be seen to be believed
good luck
just dont lose the will to live
The Glasgow BT launch has the potential to be a disaster PR-wise for well understood reasons. I’d not be surprised if they are vetting out their own supporters.
And it is Glasgow which will likely carry the Yes. After all, it is the most populous area of Scotland.
BT Facebook page states 74 people are going to their secret meeting in Glasgow. 4 unionists, 70 nationalists.
“I see Norsewarrior has managed to get a night shift.”
he’s spent so long in that library that they gave him his own key
I am told that Alistair Darling told a meeting in Edinburgh that a NO vote would reinvigorate Edinburgh.
Think he was talking about Edinburgh food banks, pawn shops and Poundland expansion. He is full on Austerity UK-OK.
ple<iframe width=”640″ height=”480″ src=”//www.youtube.com/embed/vczaKv4o6ks” frameborder=”0″ allowfullscreen></iframe>
please feel free to circulate ! 😉
This just in ……. sticking with traditional Unionist values the BT Launch meeting venue is in the SUBWAY sandwich shop outside Central Station. The menu is … well errr.. sandwiches.
If you are 55 or over and cannot get into the BT meeting then consider going on the 21 September Rally.
If you are going by train then consider getting a £19 return to Edinburgh if your fare would exceed £19. So if you live in Wick, Thurso, Mallaig or Stranraer the flat fare will be the same.
link to scotrail.co.uk
@paul the printer
There’s a ‘unionist say the silliest things’ FB page knocking about somewhere
nice to see you on here conan
It just seems like a nasty ploy to get my e-mail address.
John, whatever he is, he’s not stupid.
Boring and humourless, yes, but not stupid.
To be fair to Better Together it must be incredibly hard work agreeing a time and venue for a meeting that involves more than one person. You can imagine the questions:
– But how is that place better than the one we had before?
– Have you assessed all the risks associated with transport to/from the venue?
– What buses go there and how do we know for sure they will run on time?
Marcia
Nice one, l’m heading for my daughters in Glasgow Friday night and the two of us will go through to Edinburgh on Saturday.
Cheers
PCSA, Norsewarrior, David and some others whose names I’ve thankfully forgotten, one disappears and the next turns up with the same dreary constipated concern line of chat.
And voila ..! – the thread’s been nicely screwed up. Everyones chewing elastic bands and getting nowhere.
Mission accomplished.
Has the penny dropped yet????? 🙁
Paul the printer,
how about Alistair Darling’s contradicting back to back assertions/warnings that Independence is FOREVER, with absolutely no way back! (whooo scary). Followed, in the same breath, by the assertion/warning that, if a newly independent Scotland keeps using the pound in a Sterling zone with rUK then it will inevitably lead to political union again any way, so why bother going to all the bother of Independence in the first place?
This man was The Chancellor FFS!
Is that the sort of thing you were after Paul the printer? Hope so and good luck with your project.
aw balls…sighs…. in youtube look up wings over scotland…. ( this computing m’larkey is getting beyond me..couldn’t even figure out how to waken the sleeping dragon in adventureland. ;-( )
If we all state we have been invited to BT’ s secret meeting without publicly divulging the location how will they know?
That poses BT the problem of trying to sort out the the real from the imaginary.
Also if you have submitted multiple requests BT might consider opting for a bigger venue. Just think of all those potential empty seats, that could prove to be very embarrassing.
Cheers John.
My thunder has been stolen by BBC Scotlandshire, the Scotsman is a joke, the Guardian is run by Observer and Alan Cochrane has nae opened his wide, wide, mouth on the Telegraph for several days…
…whit’s a puir boy tae dae?
@gordoz
Mince ones?
@Conan
Bury St Edmunds is nice this time of year 😉
Paul the printer,
I know you’re probably looking for quick reference material, but I recommend going through the voluminous archive on this site – there is a lot of coverage of No campaign clangers along with analysis and forensic dismantling. It might take a while but there’s plenty low-hanging fruit there.
This article is about in my view one of the most important things of the whole debate and that is censorship. Read the articla again and what does it say?
1. Public meetings are no longer public unless you have been “approved to attend.
2. Open debate will not be tolerated unless we set he agenda.
3. Disagree with us and we will shut you down by using all legal means at our disposal (and we have more money than you)
4. Post something we don’t link on any of our pages and it will be removed.
5. Unless we are present at any public gathering then you will not be allowed to have a presence either.
6. If somehow you sneak under the barriers we will inform the police and have you removed.
The establishment is desperate now to resort to such tactics. Open your eyes people, tell your friends. Don’t let anyone shut you up.
Ha, ha, ha. Better Together are an occult group. Who’d have thunk.
Rev – could you please ask BT in what way would they consider the increasing referrals to food banks and the possibility of reinstating an Inverness soup kitchen to feed all those with nothing to eat as evidence that we are better together? I’m not seeing it myself so clearly I’m in need of the positive case for the union to help me out.
@ handclapping – Hey, this is like the auld Scotsman site!
But without David Maddox.
And AM2.
Hi Conan, remember me from the Scotsman days when i had some fun sending up a twit called AM2?
Anyway back at the ranch, i have this mental picture of Better Together folk meeting their ‘guests’ at bus and rail-stations then blindfolding them before shoving them in the back of an unmarked car and then taking them to their secret venue!
I wonder if they will tell them to turn up with a rolled up copy of the Telegraph under their arm and a picture of Johann Lamont, the latter’s not to get them in, it’s just to remind everybody what she looks like.
@Jim
AM2 wasn’t as bad as some of the unionist divots on the Scotsman these days.
Seriously.
You have to think that Better Together organisers have sworn the owners of the venue, not to mention the staff to secrecy, I wonder what threats or inducements they used?
Come on, some one must have a few suggestions!
Unless of course it’s actually being held at the BBC or Daily Record offices, where none of the above would be required.
Conan
Do you think Orrquine was an in house telegraph click baiter ?
Bwahahahaha! I go out for the evening and come back to a brand new thread with well over 100 comments, and I think, what’s such a hot topic? Seems hot enough, but then – I should have guessed. Ain’t nothing grows a thread like a concern troll. Especially not this one.
But leaving Norsie aside, which is the only kind thing to do to him, this is absolutely freaking hilarious. The comedy potential is totally unprecedented. We declare we’ve registered when we haven’t, we really do register, but don’t show up, we really do register and show up with excellent questions and cameras, and/or someone reveals the date, time and place at the last minute and they find themselves inundated by members of the public who want to attend this public meeting in favour of the Union that they heard about.
Have these people go no sense at all? This is an engraved invitation to every nationalist with the merest breath of mischief in his or her heart. They’d have been far better advertising it openly and taking their lumps.
And isn’t it interesting that our very own concern troll, who hasn’t been heard of for months, shows up to distract and disrupt in this very thread?
Well, really, if they had any sense at all they’d hold it in Glasgow on 21st September.
Conan, yes i know what you mean. apart from being able to feel the hate emanating from them, some of them don’t even know when they have been sent up!
Mind you i always said unionists don’t do humour, well apart from some of their manifestos that is.
Still you serve to remind me of their unerring accuracy before the last Holyrood elections, when right up to just days before some of them were telling the world how the SNP was going to get gubbed!
@kendo
I can’t remember her on the Hootsmon.
I wonder if Alistair Darling and his entourage of Davidson, Lamont and the other on will be discussing this as another reason as to why we’re better together!
link to theguardian.com
link to telegraph.co.uk
link to newsnetscotland.com
Of course no discussion about wars, illegal and otherwise would not be complete without the inclusion of the great warmonger himself, Tony Blair. So not to be outdone here he is.
link to thetimes.co.uk
There’s one thing that struck me with absolute force when reading that BT announcement above, and that is that this is a campaign which is losing, and losing badly. There may still be sufficient low-information voters prepared to give a No to the opinion pollsters to make that side look good on these polls, for the moment, but any campaign which behaves like that one is staring into the abyss, and even the abyss isn’t looking back at it.
Conan,
From memory she made the odd appearance but mostly the telegrah. I gave up due to Westheadbanger and Orra’s debating skills..
An interesting thread of comments. Usually I don’t bother to read but in this case I did. Publius, does have a valid point about YES Scotland having evolved as a coalition of the left. Any flavor of left has found favor in their eyes. Folks of a persuasion of center or right (read undecided or unconvinced by SNP or Yes Scotland) do have a hard time gaining entry. If there is any explanation to polls showing little change in voting intentions it is my belief that while Yes Scotland wish to reach out to undecideds they has so far failed to listen to them. My sense is that the contention that Scotland would be a leftist utopia is the great myth. Scotland is an inherently conservative; small ‘c’ conservative country. Pre Thatcher it was largely Tory. A vote or independence is NOT a vote for the SNP. For myself I want independence and will be voting yes. I really want independence. I want Scotland to stand entirely on its own two feet. Independent of from England and Europe. Yes Scotland are selling an SNP party political version of independence. Independence, yes, but nothing will change all that much. I’m OK with that as a temporary measure but an independent Scotland can be so much better. BTW, Rev. no party with a single elected MP/MSP may advocate leaving the EU but at least one the Scottish Democratic Alliance does. Sure we only stood our first ever candidate in the Aberdeen Donside election and we don’t have any elected officials YET. SDA wants real independence; pro EFTA but no EU. I’m not going to vote no to independence just to get out of the EU but sheeh can’t we even talk about both? Is that too much to ask?
Rev said “Plus, if there’s a prospect of leaving the EU, half the people currently planning to vote Yes would change their minds …”
…. and thus the motive is exposed.
Not the classic troll M.O of causing arguement for it’s own sake, but rather more nefarious – to sow dissent amongst YES support, and attempt to to steer us onto the path of failure.
Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus you are not a troll.
You are a unionist agent and I claim my £5.
Goodbye. 🙂
Well, duh. Did you think it was an accident he reappeared on this particular thread? Really?
per Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus
Folks, we’ve been here before several times. The dissembling of the thread is the same (no reference to the post entry at all) and the introductory prose is similar (I’m an independence supporter but I hate the SNP and critical of YES Scotland)… cue the ‘debate’ which ties up people in circles by having them constantly defend their stance on independence through endless questions and producing of ‘evidence’ on demand, all that can be researched by Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus from the YES website in two minutes.
Yes. We know. Rope – enough – hang, and all that.
Michael Granados
Pre Thatcher Scotland most certainly was not largely Tory. At only one election since 1945 has Scotland produced a Tory majority and that was in 1955 when they held 36 seats to Labour’s 34.
The Tories have never looked like getting anything like that again and they were soundly beaten at all elections since 1955 long before Mrs Thatcher came onto the scene. Their vote had decreased at virtually every successive election.
As far as I know only three times since WW1 has Scotland returned a majority of Tory MPs out of around 25 General Elections
Morag – “The comedy potential is totally unprecedented. We declare we’ve registered when we haven’t, we really do register, but don’t show up, we really do register and show up with excellent questions and cameras, and/or someone reveals the date, time and place at the last minute and they find themselves inundated by members of the public who want to attend this public meeting in favour of the Union that they heard about.”
Or how about this one: Dennis Canavan shows up to force an impromptu debate with Darling. You’ll never see the man running so fast ever again.
I really do wish people would stop trying to contest the 2016 Election before the Referendum. I want everyone and anyone to vote Yes first, and then you will be free and welcome to campaign and argue for EU withdrawal or our own currency or whatever the day after.
Michael Granados, I will vote yes so that you will have the opportunity to campaign against the left-wing utopia if you want – I hope you will do the same for me. Yes Scotland makes it perfectly clear (as I’ve already shown in this thread) that any future Scotland will be shaped and decided by the people of Scotland – it is NOT dictating the SNP line and nothing else, so please stop asserting that it is.
@Michael Granados
My sense is that the contention that Scotland would be a leftist utopia is the great myth. Scotland is an inherently conservative; small ‘c’ conservative country. Pre Thatcher it was largely Tory.
Scotland has a strong radical and socialist tradition though. A significant number of people in Scotland are proud of this. Scotland has produced many outstanding figures from the left, such as Keir Hardie, James Maxton, Tom Johnston, John Wheatley, Jimmy Reid etc. Many socialists are actually socially conservative. I disagree that Pre Thatcher it was largely Tory.
A vote or independence is NOT a vote for the SNP. For myself I want independence and will be voting yes. I really want independence. I want Scotland to stand entirely on its own two feet. Independent of from England and Europe. Yes Scotland are selling an SNP party political version of independence. Independence, yes, but nothing will change all that much. I’m OK with that as a temporary measure but an independent Scotland can be so much better. BTW, Rev. no party with a single elected MP/MSP may advocate leaving the EU but at least one the Scottish Democratic Alliance does. Sure we only stood our first ever candidate in the Aberdeen Donside election and we don’t have any elected officials YET. SDA wants real independence; pro EFTA but no EU. I’m not going to vote no to independence just to get out of the EU but sheeh can’t we even talk about both? Is that too much to ask?
My problem with people who want to leave the EU is that, even if you do leave you are still affected, to a significant extent, by its decisions and regulations. I also am not convinced at all the EFTA is any better than the EU.
Doug Daniel – “Or how about this one: Dennis Canavan shows up to force an impromptu debate with Darling. You’ll never see the man running so fast ever again.”
Can I suggest that Dennis Canavan registers under an assumed name just to ensure that no one is aware of his attendance and runs away until it’s too late when Darling etc have to face Dennis Canavan with no escape route.
Michael Granados, what you say is interesting in a way because while I understand what you mean about the Referendum not being a vote for the SNP, I think the longer the debate goes on, it will (hopefully )become bigger than just what any of the parties say and more about the heart and soul of Scotland.
Listening to people, (attended FOP ),it was fascinating to hear just ordinary folk asking (mostly ) really good, relevant questions and for the majority of people, It came across as they are working it all through. It was also refreshing not to have the voice of doom of Unionism ,being allowed to limit the debate that seems to happen whenever an Independent Scotland is discussed .
One of the debates on immigration was actually quite insightful as , some of the most informed and relevant questions asked, were in the main , by women ,who were well represented in numbers and believe me, those women are engaged in where Scotlands place is in the world.
Anyway, you asked if we can’t discuss both the EU AND EFTA but in order to do that ,people have to have an understanding on what they both entail. At the moment I think if you said the words EFTA or Shengen or the EU to people (myself included ) would be lets get a YES vote first and there will be an election soon after, you’ll be able to put forward your own preference.
By the way, j Lamont must be back in the country, Jackie Baillie was spotted, wearing the multi tasking pink jaickit, as was Jim Murphy ,at the debate, not the jaickit
The ’55 Unionists were not Tory, however their causus belli had evaporated and they joined up with the Tory party whom they had generally supported at Westminster and found they had been incorporated in a Party of a very different stripe which is why their support fell away so drastically. These were conservative Scots not Scots Conservatives aka Tories
Can I also put in a wee plug for the just announced official launch meeting of the Yes Motherwell and Wishaw campaign.
No need for an id check, pre-registration, entry ticket or funny cult hand gestures and oaths of undying loyalty. Just turn up on the night. Details of the time, date and location can all be found on Twitter, Facebook and the Yes Scotland website.
Yes Motherwell & Wishaw – Launch Meeting
Mon 09 Sept 2013, 19.00, South Dalziel Studios, 240 Orbiston St, Motherwell
link to yesscotland.net
The mouth-watering speaker line-up announced on the Facebook invitation page, The Official Launch of Yes Motherwell & Wishaw
link to facebook.com
Clare Adamson MSP – Chair
Tommy Brennan – ex Ravenscraig Trade Union Leader
Colin Fox – Leader of Scottish Socialist Party
Carolyn Leckie – Women For Independence
Sarah Jane Walls – Board Member of Yes Scotland
Entry permit is required.
Cobrastan is not a real country. Glory to Arstotzka.
conan the libraria says
“whit’s a puir boy tae dae?”
exactly.
I got fed up with orraquines continuous squawking
at me, so I stopped being jdman and started being me,
as far as norsewarrior is concerned, I never assumed him to be stupid
its great, 🙂
Well, that was entertaining.
Please note that PCSA knocked-off at 10, when the sun had gone to rest, the time that these people like best – out for a wee wander ‘wi’ a lassie by his side’.
Altogether now – ‘Oh, it’s lovely…’
Hmmmm
Independence isn’t about support for policy on the EU, the monarchy, currency, trident, public spend, infrastructure projects or indeed any other policy, populist or otherwise. Its about where we want to make decisions on those policies.
Campaigns compare and contrast. BT= parliamentary tradition, elitism, no say in monarchical sovereignty, top down government. Strategy = fear, intimidation, lies, secrecy, exclusion and division.
YES Scotland = empowerment, popular sovereignty, political accountability, constitutional reform. Strategy = inclusion, grassroots personal communication, open debate, discussion of unrealised potential and aspiration.
There is no single policy or person that would prevent me from voting for an independent Scotland. Only fear and disinformation prevents a person from voting YES. I will shake the hand of any and all other party members regardless of the colour of their rosette so long as they believe Scotland should be making decisions for itself and based on the needs and common beliefs of her electorate. That they accept the sovereignty of her peoples and that their representatives owe a duty of service to the electorate.
Not policy, PRINCIPLE.
Are we to sleepwalk into yet another bloody and protracted war at the behest of America
why don’t the bleeding hearts in saudi quater and so on take this issue up with Assad? what the hell has this got to do with us? have we not learned anything from Afghanistan Iraq, Libya?
the UK expended a mountain of treasure to help the rebels in Libya and what did they do in return? they destroyed British war graves in Benghazi that’s what, and the Americans ? oh they murdered the American ambassador,
leave these people to it, its nothing to do with us, the French have a higher moral responsibility than us,
besides all “call me dave”has to do is start a war every time Scotland votes for independence to have the poodles in the media come up with hysterical headlines like
SCOTLAND TO PULL TROOP OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR?
WILL SCOTLAND STAB THE UK IN THE BACK IF IT GAINS INDEPENDENCE?
has anyone noticed just how chillingly obsequious the media is on this subject?
is there no stomach to stand up to these people in Westminster?
this issue could sound the death knell for the yes movement if we dont stop him
ianbrotherhood says
“Well, that was entertaining.”
dont think for a moment that agent provocateur is out to entertain himself or anyone else for that matter, his mission is to sow division plain and simple
he’s got form on the telegraph under norsewarrior and possibly darth vadar
“Do you think Orrquine was an in house telegraph click baiter ?”
probably
she has no real opinion of her own she just goads others into more and more extreme comments
“Can I suggest that Dennis Canavan registers under an assumed name just to ensure that no one is aware of his attendance and runs away until it’s too late when Darling etc have to face Dennis Canavan with no escape route.”
I would pay to see that
john king says:
27 August, 2013 at 6:47 am
Are we to sleepwalk into yet another bloody and protracted war at the behest of America ?
Sleep walking we are ……. but with Britain we be walking (Better Together !) not yanks !
O/T – is it just my imagination or are “they” out to get Blair Jenkins aided and abetted by a clique within WFI. The expression “with friends like these” springs to mind.
@Annie
Don’t know about the WFI angle, but yes I’d say they are out to ‘get’ Blair Jenkins. Their strategy relies upon turning this referendum into a party political election. They want Alex Salmond and the SNP up front. Their arguments are all New Labour attacks on the SNP they can’t attack the principle of independence and they can’t and won’t debate against a non political like Blair in public. They need to remove him before the campaign becomes high visibility in the run up. Their cannon will be well and truly pointed in his direction for the foreseeable future. If he gets through this period though, they are in trouble and they know it.
The site might like to ‘debate’ and it is good for us to do so on any blog, but trolls have difficulty debating seeing as hey talk a load of repetitive arse-that is what trolls do, but it is funny to see one get sent over by the scotsman and not even disguise its trolliness!
By the way folks, the Yes Kelvin launch night is next week, Wednesday 4th of September. It’s at Partick Burgh Halls, doors are 6:30 for a 7 o’clock start. Speakers include Dennis Canavan, Jeane Freeman and Michael Gray, as well as entertainment from some members of TradYes.
If you’re in and around the West end of Glasgow then come along, or if you know anyone in the area let them know about it. Seeing as it is a genuine public meeting, everyone is welcome. The broader the range of questions fired at our speakers, the more constructive it will be.
got a dear john letter from reporters without frontiers,
and another door closes
Dear John,
Thank you for your email. It is not our mandate to decide whether the media are doing a good job or not. But we understand your concerns on the press not providing independent and reliable information to allow a better, democratic, debate.
I encourage you to start writing a blog to expose your vision of the media coverage of the referendum. There are ways to objectify your remarks, by exposing clearly the lack of independence or maybe, by using text mining on large corpus of contents and comparing different approaches of the different media outlets you are mentioning in your email.
Very best wishes,
thanks Antoine for the response at least
And for those who don’t receive Yes Scotland updates – Nicola Sturgeon and Denis Canavan will be at the Volunteer Rooms in Irvine on Sept 9th.
link to yesscotland.net
O/T Just wondering if anyone was at the Lesley Riddoch/Alan Cochrane head to head at the book festival yesterday evening?
“O/T Just wondering if anyone was at the Lesley Riddoch/Alan Cochrane head to head at the book festival yesterday evening?”
no but hoping someone was
Ex Africa semper aliquid novi.
I mean that ironically, clearly.
north brit says
@ 7.59
hmm thats novel
Very sad that the usually very interesting discussion that takes place here was disrupted to such an extent that it was like reading the comments section in the Scotsman. Hope it doesn’t happen again.
“Very sad that the usually very interesting discussion that takes place here was disrupted to such an extent that it was like reading the comments section in the Scotsman. Hope it doesn’t happen again.”
I hope it does.
I wish I didn’t have to keep repeating this, but >99% of visitors to this site don’t comment. If everyone who posts dissent is immediately leapt on by a lynch mob screaming “TROLL!”, it doesn’t say anything good about our confidence in the strength of our argument to the VAST majority of people who are reading silently.
As it happened, a calm, evidence-based and reason-based approach soon dealt with the situation. The allegations that Yes Scotland was promoting exclusively SNP policies were conclusively debunked. Let’s try to stick to that, rather than angrily attacking anyone who deviates from the standard line, no matter how wrong they are. If someone’s trolling, it’s better to expose it through debate rather than just shout the accusation, okay?
@NorthBrit
Credo quia absurdum est…
@Michael
You dinnae ken Norsewarrior very well…
@Rev-
‘There’s nothing wrong with a little debating practice now and again.’
Aye – never look a gift norse in the mouth.
no but hoping someone was
Boom, boom …….it was a sell out as it goes
@ianbrotherhood
After many confrontations with him, I’d rather punch him in the mouth.
I do not think “Better Together” is scared, I think rather are following the strategy of criminalizing the followers of yes to independence.
So, better to be aware of this
SS above has it right. Better Together are attempting to weed out some of their own supporters from the Glasgow launch, lest it degenerate into a Unionist folly to which even the BBC will have to give a nod.
On which subject, have a listen to a desperately soft-pedalling Gary Robertson on GMS this morning as Wee Duggie Alexander was given his usual platform to convince us he’s a statesman. The wretched Gary diffidently raises the spectre of Iraq vis-a-vis military intervention in Syria. ‘There might be a perception that people were misled on Iraq’ says our fearless journo. ‘Iraq casts a long shadow’ says wee Duggie, a member of the government which actually DID mislead the public. Wee Duggie was then thanked for his time.
Kay-with-a-knee and her esteemed guests playing at ‘Risk’. Oh, what a(nother) lovely war…
Let them have their last hurrah, lynch another ‘despot’ – the sun is finally setting on their glorious empire.
Love the way on the invite it has (grassroots) after his name. No doubt Orwellian.
Johann Lamont’s Summer of Silence continues, and this is in the Daily Record.
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
“Scots Labour leader Johann Lamont declined to comment.”
I don’t get the EFTA thing. A club of 4 countries with 13 million inhabitants; 8 million of them in good old transparent Switzerland?
UK cabinet and the Lab shadows coming up to Scotland to cheer us up says the news.
OH dear, what have we done?
That will put a few more votes in the YES bag I think.
Maybe shouting louder from down South isn’t working.
I see Ed Miliband is organising a search party to look for missing Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont.
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
Quote, Ed Miliband, ““What is clear to me is that while Scottish families are lying awake at night thinking “where is Johann?”, Alex Salmond is lying awake at night thinking “who cares!”. “
The venue is probably that Subway sandwich shop near Central Station – the one Ian Gray hid in.
Love your quote: but
Johann lying awake at night thinking:
‘Oh why did I end up with the parcel when the music stopped’
It was the Turtles that did it .
After being ambushed last year in a peaceful protest by the Ninja Turtles ,Alistair is afraid to hold any public meeting without carefully vetting who will be allowed into his so called public meetings .
Between L.F.I , T.U.I and as was disclosed in a previous thread this weekend that even members of the O.O are voting Yes ,Darling is likely to find himself outnumbered at this event no matter how hard they try to stage manage it .
To have an opposition leader that never says anything must be a pleasant if slightly bizarre experience for Alex Salmond. No doubt when she returns to Holyrood we will be back to the rigorous intellectual challenge of “When will the FM tell the Scottish people why he ate all the pies” …or some other desperately important pressing political issue.
I did like Duggie’s “Iraq casts a long shadow” comment. Aye it does and in that shadow you can make out the outline of a lot of well known British politicians, you being one of them.
M4rkyboy says:
26 A forumugust, 2013 at 9:17 pm
PCSA does have a Norsewarrior quality to his posts.
=======================================================
He is Norsewarrior/Yeah1 ,Duncan of Edinburgh ,and the more you respond to it the more it loves it and the more it will ruin this wonderful forum the way it has ruined the Scotsman.
Nowadays only Norsewarrior using the same ID as here , Rufus using 10 ids and a few outwith of Scotland Unionists pollute Scotsman.
That forum is now almost exclusively unionist, keep feeding the troll here and he will ruin here too.
Dave, Michael and Muttley,
Michael Granados
Pre Thatcher Scotland most certainly was not largely Tory. At only one election since 1945 has Scotland produced a Tory majority and that was in 1955 when they held 36 seats to Labour’s 34.
The 1955 majority in Scotland by the Scottish Unionist party was due mainly to the fact that they were the only major party standing with a central manifesto commitment to ending rationing. Labour had a policy for it’s continuation. Many people forget how long rationing actually continued after the end of the war and how large an impact it had on peoples every day lives.
For this reason the 55 election became dominated as a largely single issue election and that Issue, by it’s singular nature, could not be used again in future elections. Hence the Scottish Unionist Party’s (and their later incarnation, The Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party’s) continual decline in support among the Scottish electorate ever since.
Not something that often gets mentioned when 1955 is inevitably raised by social and political commentators as proof of Scotland’s ‘inherent’ small c conservatism as a society.
I can’t remember where or when it was that I picked up this information, but I do remember how illuminating I found it, as it helped explain what I found difficult to square with my everyday experience of Scottish political life.
Maybe others on here know of a link for more info on this? I will have a wee look myself for one when I get a bit more free time.
By the way, The Scottish Unionist Party was in serious decline before they decided to Unify with the English Conservatives to form today’s much loved (Scottish) Conservative and Unionist Party. That was in fact a large part of the reasoning behind the amalgamation.
call me dave
UK cabinet and the Lab shadows coming up to Scotland to cheer us up says the news.
Let’s hope someone is checking all the expense claims.
What I have noticed though is that the “concerned reader” appears when the article is very important. Worth bearing in mind that they’re trying to hide something …
O/T Rev so sorry
Would it be at all possible to implement a post numbering system in your blog? Trying to follow discussions on three different machines is incredibly difficult. I know most don’t share this problem so if it’s either difficult or impossible then nno worries. Thanks.
I think we have all come to recognise that while Scotland elects MPs it is England that elects UK governments.
That is the big difference, and that is why Scotland’s voice is ignored at Westminster.
OOPs,
It was the 51 election not 55! Rationing ended in 54.(Maybe a residual effect?)
I did say I didn’t remember where or when I heard it, you can now add to that what!
Ridneckedsmiley.
“From the postcode on the BT page it’s Blysthwood Square Hotel, G2 4AD”
I recall that years ago Blysthwood Square in Glasgow was a place known to be frequented by prostitutes. Now, it seems, it is used by the political kind.
Now that BT will be aware we know of their Public /Private Meeting and intend invading it I would not be surprised if it is cancelled and the MSM talks of those vile Cybernats thwarting democracy.
I for one cannot wait to get there and ask that question Unionists dread . “the positive case for the union please”, or another favourite guaranteed to scramble a naysayers brain . What extra powers can we expect with a No Vote?
I don’t know the regulars on the Scotsman because the board there is shockingly badly run and it is a troll fest best avoided. I recall a Norse chappie but I thought he was more a “Caps Lock is cruise control for cool” type whose pro-independence rants were obviously said with bitter irony and was a troll as obvious as the flat of a spade in the face.
PCSA may be the same person toned down, no idea, but I do believe it is perfectly credible that there are pro-independence supporters on the right of the political spectrum that are anti-EU. It isn’t concern trolling to want something different but still going to vote Yes. It isn’t concern trolling to say I will vote Yes but I don’t like the mainstream Yes political position, a Tory who leans Yes will be in that position. A true concern troll starts off saying they are pro and then increasingly focuses on some perceived grievance and then starts saying there is no point in voting Yes..usually going on to say you are all horrid and as revenge they will try to persuade as many people to vote No as possible….see what your appalling attitude has done.
PCSA may have gone on to do this of course but while I disagree with his gripe about the Yes campaign and the SNP I have no issue with someone who is not keen on the EU voting Yes. Our position in these organisations can be debated once we secure a Yes vote. As someone who is neutral on the EU and sceptical about joining NATO I have some sympathies with having a broad church approach to the Yes campaign. I just don’t think there is any point on sweating this stuff until we have independence and I am pretty convinced if there was a vote on the EU we would probably stay in..NATO not so sure (one can hope).
However, those of you that frequent the Scotsman have probably had your fill of trolls of all types and hence the sensitivity. I would say the board would be less derailed if people didn’t obsess overly as to whether someone is a troll or not. A real concern troll is easily outed because sooner (rather than later) they have to lay their cards on the table by saying something that is not a logical sequitur to their previous statements. Hone in on that and the fan gets messy. Silly concern trolls are tiresome and soon dispatched but arguing genuine points is good practice because you will meet people who are against this or that but are also attracted to the notion of independence. Squaring the circle succinctly will increase the Yes vote.
I’m guessing they wouldn’t have dared hold it on the same day as the march in Edinburgh – the contrast in the numbers of attendees would have been too embarrassing.
It just sounds to me as if the whole event on Saturday is designed to be as controlled and carefully stage-managed as possible for the benefit of the media. In other words, a photo opportunity. No competing news so maximum coverage. What could possibly go wrong 🙂
On meetings, I believe that Nicola will be at a public meeting in Irvine in the Volunteer Halls on the 9th of Sept. There seems to be a ramping up of activity as we approach the referendum year.
Re the missing Ms Lamont it is just possible that like a lot of the posters on this site, me included, who used to vote/support Labour in the distant past she has finally seen the light, after all she is in a better position to than most, and she just can’t stomach trotting out their lies anymore. Or maybe she just took it that when Parliament closed for summer she was off the hook for 9 weeks.
H&S, I don’t remember seeing the Norsewarrior moniker on the Scotsman boards, but I hardly ever read them anyway. However, I do recognise the Norsewarrior who came here from these boards. He was “Tellen1” and a few other names.
It’s the turn of phrase, the way the sentences are constructed. He can’t help it. It’s extremely obvious. Let’s just say our new Latin friend wasn’t a stranger.
Annie,
she’s acting more like a School kid on her summer holiday’s rather than a Political Leader (and ex School teacher). Maybe back in the day when she was a teacher, the profession did get the summer holidays off, just like the kids? But I doubt it.
I would expect on Saturday the only questions that will be allowed will have been agreed before the meeting even takes place.
Along the lines of “Does the panel agree Alex Salmond is Satan reincarnate , and his followers satanic disciples?”
“I would say the board would be less derailed if people didn’t obsess overly as to whether someone is a troll or not. A real concern troll is easily outed because sooner (rather than later) they have to lay their cards on the table by saying something that is not a logical sequitur to their previous statements. Hone in on that and the fan gets messy.”
Yes, precisely.
Just pat the wee roman man on the heid. He’s more to be pitied than scolded.
Did his brothers in the nineth no come to Scotland. The looked, they saw and we ate them. Pass the ketchup!
It’s entirely possible that the independence march and gathering on Calton Hill on 21 September will get proscribed since there is no NO presence to give balance.
Do you think there are not some looney-toons out there who would try do it?
Whatever happened to the Union Flaggers who we’re lifted by the boys in blue (eventually) at last year’s gathering ?
It could be true that they’re trying to keep the OO out, but I don’t quite see how they would manage that. Not unless they have a fairly comprehensive list of OO members and are prepared t block them.
Pilar has a point too. Any Yes Scotland infiltration of this not-so-public meeting, no matter how polite and respectful to the Chair, will be branded as a bunch of hooligans denying the saintly No campaign their God-given right of free speech.
YES Cowal hosting a super Labour For Independence gala launch in Dunoon’s Burgh Hall on 7th September.
Alex Bell, Allan Grogan, Celia Fitzpatrick. Cowal Junior Fiddlers, Highland dancers, pipers , interesting local stalls and a bar for refreshments.
Everybody welcome!
You better make sure there are no identifiable SNP members there, or they’ll just redouble their accusations of astroturfing.
See call me dave is stirring it up. At this rate he will have to reinstated the Argyles. At least they will have plenty of badger pelts for sporrens.
I hope not! One damn good way to give the lot of them TB.
@Dave McEwen Hill
What time, Dave?
Just Registered for the BT Glasgow Launch. Had to use a different email in case I get rumbled. Awaiting confirmation of me being ‘allowed’ to attend, and the location.
I’m so disappointed in democracy in the UK today that I have to stoop to such low levels in order to ‘hear’ the debate from BT’s side.
I will be asking questions if I get the chance. Lets see what the response is… will I be removed from the hall for asking legitimate questions in a polite and coherent manner??
I just registered by phone, didn’y like the ‘give us all your contacts’ link at all!, “No email address?” How odd they thought. “Could you use someone else’s?”, Me, “Ermm no thanks”. “OK, we’ll phone you with the (secret) location” (gave my work direct line).
If I get rumbled it’s because they’ve been here and seen my (very) occasional post and a few to the Herald. We’ll see…
Gordon Bain
Each time I leave a thread I note the time on the last post read. Works a treat when I can remember it! 🙂
Just registered too. Wonder when they’ll actually tell us the venue. 12.30pm on Saturday mibbe?
Slightly O/T, but not much given that it’s about AD and he’ll be there on Saturday. So in case people are anxious to know what Alistair’s going to say but simply can’t make it on Saturday or can’t find the secret letter drop that reveals the location of the launch event, here’s what he had to say on the BBC’s hard talk.
Alan Little (pretty good I thought), accused the BT campaign of scaring people witless so that they’ll vote ‘cautiously’ (like that). Er, no no said Alistair, “There is a very powerful, positive case for being part of the union. Look at what we’ve been able to achieve in, you know, in, in the financial services industry, in terms of, er, our engineering, in terms of food and drink, in terms of energy, all of that has worked to our advantage because we happened to be part of a very much larger economy.”
So there you have it! We need to be part of a much larger economy to make our wee way in the world. Slightly disappointing though, even for us knowing what to expect. You’d have thought the No chief spokesman might have had a few benefits ready for a pre-prepared interview that he could smoothly reel off, instead of spluttering – for that was how it came over – about a few random industrial sectors.
@ Boorach
“…. when I can remember it” is key in that advice. Thanks though.
Anyone know what the legalities are of them keeping us out of a “Public Meeting”?
“Let them have their last hurrah, lynch another ‘despot’ – the sun is finally setting on their glorious empire.”
Dont kid yourself, they’ll turn it into a raison d’etre
for the maintenance of the union (look who’s ass we can kick together kinda thing)
As a lifelong Indy supporter let’s not forget the Yes campaign is pretty dire. The rally in Edinburgh on 21st September is not even on their homepage yet a low turnout would mean the No’s having a field day.
Root and branch re-think required and soon.
Jeanie
7 pm – 10pm
o just hack their email to find out the locations dam hypocrites
(need to clarify for stupid BT that is a joke I wont hack your email because I obey the law unlike you)
@Gordon Bain
I love your avatar!! TPB!!
I find ‘concerned trolls
‘ a pain in the bum as well, but the good thing about them is they usually follow a well worn path, trotting out the lies that Better Together also trot.
This gives us a chance to show the many many new visitors to ‘Wings’ just how shallow and false these arguments are.
In effect they are helping us get our message across.
I was particularly annoyed at Rev. Stu’s comment that if you want out of the EU to vote no in the referendum. This is hardly a logical or democratic way forward. Let Scots vote on whether they want to be in the EU or not. Democracy can be a messy thing but once the genie is out of the bottle you can’t put it back in. Scots get to choose in the referendum whether they want to remain in the UK or not. It is started a debate on the issue but has also stated debates on other issues as well. Scots have been given the chance to choose for themselves on one issue are not going to be quite so content to not be able to choose for themselves on other issues. You say there is no need to have an EU referendum because of what polls say. I suspect you’ll agree that it doesn’t follow that there is no need to have a referendum on independence because the polls have already decided. We may as well go through the motions and actually let Scots decide.
Haggistrap- it is on their website under Events
My point entirely it’s on Events page, it should be bold on Homepage – it is very important.
I agree with haggistrap that the yes campaign has so far been woeful. Yes need to take more of a front seat to try to get the focus onto themselves as the drivers or the campaign and not the SNP.
YES are the ones that need to come up with possible future visions of Scotland. They must set out the possibilities and the scope of what is possible.
They must also point out publicly and give more support to other independence organisations and websites such as this, newsnet, national collective, bella Caledonia, etc. etc. when the unionists resort to their bully boy tactics.
Yes really need to “up their game”
Michael Granados
You are missing the point entirely (and deliberately?). Until Scotland is independent Scotland can’t have a referendum on Europe.
Bringing the issue up now is devisive and the sort of thing that trolls do.
The SNP has already made it clear that membership of the EU will be decided by the people of Scotland after independence. The SNP position at the moment is that we should remain in the EU. The first Scottish government will be in a position to look at this matter. This government may or may not be an SNP one. The SNP position might even change. Who knows. If it didn’t we’d still be facing the Holy Roman Empire.
Haggisstrap, smac
Nonsense.
The YES campaign has been just right.
In the total absence of any ability to get anything out on any of the media we are winning round the doors, on the streets and online.
At the moment we are just deflecting the ever more bizarre rantings of NAW by quietly providing the facts to intelligent, well informed people. Despite the most prolonged, personally offensive, vicious and dishonest assault on us they have moved our figures not one inch and all movement is in our favour.
And we haven’t really started yet..Have either of you joined your local YES group or done some leafletting or canvassing or arranged or attended meetings. Some of us are doing these things all the time.
Dave McEwan
Yes I have tried to join the yes official campaign. Went to two meetings..
I found them amateurish to say the least.. And totally SNP party member dominated. And very protective of that position. Paranoid is the word that comes to mind.
The people they had organising the leafleting teams and doorstep campaign were completely out their depth and the training they were giving to prospective doorsteppers was woeful… These people are going to come up against folk like me that will eat them for breakfast in debate therefore diminishing their confidence. They were cpmpletely bereft of ideas on fundraising. I tried to help but it was made blatantly obvious that they didn’t want any and weren’t prepared to listen to others that were not of their ‘political persuasion’ Stating that they were ‘seasoned campaigners’… maybe that’s why the SNP are nowhere in my constituency and the YES campaign will be nowhere here too, no thanks to them.
I was so disappointed at the attitude and organisation. I am very aware that there are others like me that have had the same experience when trying to get involved in the YES campaign and basically getting told – you’re not welcome.
Dave McEwan Hill,
well said. I’d say we are just about where we need to be, considering we are over a year out from the vote.
Loads of hard work ahead though, hopefully intensifying into an avalanche of face to face activism and pro indy information spreading during the final official 16 weeks of the campaign period.
BetterNO, have no activist base to speak of at the moment, if they can’t rectify that they will simply be burried (if they haven’t been already by then)!
@MichaelGranados
We are not having a referendum because of the polls. You may have missed it but a political party standing with a policy of offering a referendum won an unprecedented majority in the Scottish Parliament. That is why we are having a referendum. Note that folk could be pretty sure they were serious since as a minority government they had tried to get a bill mandating that referendum through the previous parliament.
I didn’t vote for the SNP and am a DevoMax convert to Independence, but credit where credit is due. The SNP played a blinder and won the right to do what they had promised.
Really?
Which two meetings did you go to?
I’m waiting for the details of the meetings you went to so I can contact the organisers and expresss your concerns to them.
I assume you made some points at these meetings so they will be able to identify you.
I’m not going to give out details of the meetings I went to. I tried to get in touch with yes direct myself to no avail – I found it impossible. they didn’t even reply to me. That was back in January/February. No point now in raking over old coals.
And yes I did make points at those meetings.
So, as far as I’m concerned, if we win the referendum it will be in spite of YES not because of them.
smac
I see.
Pull the other one.
A typical yes response – in denial. – Or are you inferring I’m a liar.
That is why they will never get their house in order an get their game up to a level where we will stand a chance of winning the vote.
If you wish to give me your email I will give you the details privately but not publicly.
I’m not sure why you’re averse to giving out the details. Shouldn’t these groups be named and shamed into bucking their ideas up?
I, certainly, am not calling you a liar, though. If the events you attended were run by people like Kate Higgins, I’d be amazed if what you said WASN’T true. It’s absolutely clear that while many people are working their socks off for the cause, others are plainly in it for their own ego and/or career.
Now isn’t the time to start public rifts and arguments between those of us that want independence. Starting public slagging matches and such would be detrimental to our cause.
So it’s better that we keep on track and have a united front.