Wings Over Scotland

Stoker,
You are right about dodgy statistics about workers at the Faslane Naval Base.
It has aye been. In the early 2000s when the Labour Party were in power they used to go on about 5,000 Scots jobs at the base.
I visited the base while tendering for work and was escorted around a hunter killer nuclear submarine. I commented on the tight space they lived in and was told “yes, and there’s about a hundred of us aboard when we are at sea.” Now at that time they had six hunter killers and four Tridents which are much bigger. Each Submarine had one crew aboard, one crew in training and one crew on leave. Say three hundred men for each sub. Very roughly that’s about three to four thousand sea-going Royal Navy personnel plus all the logistics, planning and maintenance Navy people. Soon mounts up to five thousand but there are very few actual Scots jobs at the base. I believe the Navy once said about 5O0 civilian contractors at maximum.
When Faslane is our Naval Base we will easily employ that many and probably more. We don’t need the Nuclear submarines, however it is only reasonable and safe to allow a fair run down time and to charge a fair rent.

Possibly the best news any of us have had in years; link to youtu.be

@Ruby,

according to She/Her and the transcult,

`Reality is transphobic`

#ResignSturgeon is trending on Twitter, currently 2nd place, and has been in the top 5 for days.

Why are folk so angry with her?

Are they just fed up seeing her face?

Whatever it is people are angry with Sturgeon about she won’t listen.

Complaints not valid.

Their blocked stanks need flushing.

It’s interesting to read stuff like this, effectively, “from the horse’s mouth”.

link to archive.md

Good to see the ‘Compliments of the Season’ messages back and forth between the respective posters on here. It really gives me a sense of well being and a nice warm glow!

For the life of me I will never understand why a poster, with a particular opinion on some subject, will ever think that he/she/it/thing will change the views of another poster who thinks diametrically opposite.

Folk are different-always have been-always will be and ……..
just as well!

Weird that ResignSturgeon has started trending all of a sudden.

Was it the ‘no parties’ announcement that did it?

Was it just too much that people watched Sturgeon swanning around at party after party from people from all over the world last month and then were told ‘no parties’?

Will Sturgeon stand from doing the Covid announcements and be replaced by Humza Yousaf?

‘This Is Scary, Very Scary’ on yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com

The moon is a massive 5G antenna, Andy. Didn’t you watch the latest Neil Oliver clip?

Those fucking globalists…

Someone asked me the other day if I was comfortable being on the same side of the lunar divide as Neil Oliver.

How do you respond to a question like that?

BMW want to charge owners of vehicles for heated seats or a heated steering wheel etc, via subscription, the vehicle will come with the hardware and software when you buy it but if you want it activated it you’ll need to pay via subscription fee, and I don’t even think its a one-off fee.

As with some Tesla cars when you sell the vehicle the subscription services that you were paying for are turned off and the new owner will need to pay a subscription fee to turn them back on.

BMW and other high end car makers will make more money this way than just having their vehicles roll off the production line fully equipped and just have the first customer pay for the extras.

What next I wonder will you need to pay a subscription fee to turn the engine on or the lights on, where does it end.

link to businessinsider.com

Went to a pub, 14 quid for twa pints of lager and a fresh orange juice!
Fuck me sideways, now I huvnae been oot for yonks and wondering if COP26 whacked a huge carbon tax on the importation of orange juice…
TBH not being allowed intae pubs due to not having a valid “vaccine” passport will at least save me from bankruptcy.

@ sarah

Scotland aspiring to be like Norway… with the drinks prices…
We jist require oor wages to catch up with the reindeer munchers!

@Dan 2.54 pm

No just our wages, but also our sense of national self identification.

I seem to recall 99.95% of Norwegians voted for their independence in 1905.

I wonder how many non native Scots would have to vote No to overturn 99.95% of native born Scots voting Yes…..?

After nor being allowed to use their logo on the voting slips at the May election, I see that the Electoral Commission authorised a logo for Alba in August.

link to search.electoralcommission.org.uk

@Dan 3:19pm
It was a good post Dan. To paraphrase Stu “Sturgeon has poisoned the Independence well”. We could use a few filters to clean up the well. Joining another political party doesn’t cut it for me. I thought long and hard about Alba membership but didn’t in the end. There has been no positive case made for Independence since 2014. Sturgeon going might be the catalyst to start a grassroots debate. But will a Sturgeonless SNP operate as a proper political party?. And then there is their policy landscape. Not a great outlook. It all feels far away to me. Open to suggestions.

Dan
‘There’s been a hunner posts arguing aboot fuckin covid and only one extremely brief mention from Tannadice Boy in response to a post I put up the other night asking for input on how we might proceed in the current circumstances’

I made comments earlier this year which included the paraphrased quote from Clinton ‘it’s the system, stupid’ referring to party politics, and said I would have political parties BANNED, and not just for local elections.

The party system in politics is in place for a reason: to maintain the status quo.

I don’t necessarily go along with your thoughts, but I’m fully behind the sentiment.
Party loyalty is now the expected norm: everyone in the party must give support, no matter what the subject is or if the party is right or wrong – Fabiani being an outstanding example. Sturgeon getting full backing from the party after that performance says it all.
The entire system is one bad joke.

Electoral voting systems are just as bad. For every type of election, it’s a different bad joke
There is something far wrong with the UK system that could give one party (always unionist Cons or Lab) a massive parliamentary majority with a second placed 30% of the popular vote. Even winning the popular vote is normally less than 40%.

Or the Scottish elections which resulted in a HR coalition where weirdo greens, who couldn’t win a single seat on popular vote, get the casting vote on all policies.
And whatever we think of SNP, it is wrong, wrong, wrong, for more than a million votes to be shoved into a bin because the rules say too many voters agree on candidate ‘A’, and then candidate ‘B’, with a fraction of those votes, becomes elected, even though hardly anyone wanted that candidate.

Local election rules are even more wacky: I guarantee the vast majority of the electorate have no idea of the process in candidates winning a council seat. For simplicity, I can tell you that anyone getting 15% of the vote is likely be elected.

Even PR or federal systems are flawed, usually resulting in trade-offs based on party ideology rather than what is in the best interests of the electorate.

Final observation on voting: how can it be called democracy when there isn’t an option to vote for ‘none of the above’?

@Dan 3.19 pm

What an odd outlook. So is nobody allowed to voice opinions unless they intend to stand for office? Or is it OK as long as they have some certification for participation in policy development, or delivering “X” leaflets, or raising £”X” for the cause?

I’ve no real desire to stand for political office, and nothing I’ve seen of how our representatives are treated inclines me to change my mind. I haven’t put in policy suggestions to Alba as it happens, not because I’m not interested, but because at present I have family, work and other commitments to keep me pretty fully occupied, and I’m still not sure where Alba will go.

Doubtless there’s something to be said for just posting on t’internet too. It may have it’s limitations, but perhaps it’s better than just playing video games, or golf or any other pursuit people who don’t care about politics mights devote their energies to.

I’ve never really bought in to the: ” Ah, but what are you doing to advance [insert hobby horse of choice]….” arguments, sorry.

I appreciate these posts from posters who know a thing or two about politics. I’m glad Dan got replies to his post.

It’s been here on Wings that I’ve learned everything I know about politics. Thank you very much for that.

The most wacky election in my opinion is any UK wide election where England decides.

Has any other political party in the UK been as cult like as the New SNP?

Andy Ellis not standing for office!
Great! What about Craig Murray?

Is there any chance he could be standing in Central Edinburgh?

Would I be left having to vote for ‘Bonnie Prince Bob’ again?

It looks as if Craig like Sturgeon is putting ‘self-id’ before independence.

@Ruby 5.39 pm

I’d vote for Joanna Cherry in Edinburgh Central in a heartbeat. I wouldn’t vote for Craig Murray because he supports misogynistic TRA, irrespective of his other views. It will be a red line for lots of other Alba supporters I suspect.

I very much doubt Alba would stand him for a constituency seat.

“Before the coward Iain Lawson”

Fuck you Ellis, Iain Lawson cares about Scotland and its people you can disagree with him but like the Rev he’s not afraid to put his neck on the line.

@RoS 7.19 pm

But he is afraid to let Rev Stu comment on his site….?

Riiiiighhht.

Another knuckle dragging nativist resorts to abuse in lieu of actual argument. Is it just that you can’t form a coherent response, or you just like abusing folk from behind your anonymous profile?

@RoS 7.39 pm

Re-posted from Lawson’s blog in response to the same whinge from you there:

“You’re either wilfully misrepresenting the situation, or simply don’t grasp it. Which is it?

Other countries DO give folk the vote in self determination referendums. It’s not an opinion, it’s a fact.

You – like Iain Lawson – are comparing what countries which are already independent and have clearly established citizenship criteria do, with what happens in situations where a people which is not yet independent is trying to establish their independence via a referendum vote.

However much you and others attempt to ignore or deny it, the overwhelming majority of such cases have used non-exclusive, territorial franchises and NOT excluded sections of the “demos” on the the basis they haven’t lived here long enough.

The answer to your question therefore is: No, we’re not special, but we WOULD be special if we tried to move the goalposts from the 2014 precedent and exclude a category of people whose support we were happy to have then.”

Two can play at that game Ellis.

“Other countries DO give folk the vote in self determination referendums. It’s not an opinion, it’s a fact.”

And other don’t are they blood and soil nationalists?

And what has being independent or not, got to do with the voting franchise when the plebiscite will be run by our own parliament, as it is in other countries, the answer is nothing.

” No, we’re not special, but we WOULD be special if we tried to move the goalposts from the 2014 precedent and exclude a category of people whose support we were happy to have then.”

We’d be stupid have a rerun of the 2014 indyref, like for like would undoubtably see yes lose, and many real indy supporters bloggers and commentors know this. To be quite honest I don’t even think the Alba party wants a 2014 rerun and you’re supposed to be a founding member yet you’re pushing a rerun.

Like I told you over on Wings Ellis if you’re a real indy supporter I’m a monkeys uncle.

This is a debate that’s taking part on another site but for some strange reason Andy Ellis wants the debate to be spread out over this site.

The problem is nobody here knows what’s going on or what the debate is all about because it’s taking place on another site. No idea why Andy Ellis is getting himself into such a tizzy over a discussion about a franchise? However I am going to leave it there as it’s never a good sign when someone totally loses there sense of humour.

The thing is when you think about it, the biggest cause of spread is through schools rather than from hospitality venues.

Given it is impossible to get children to social distance inside and outside to school, the virus is spread around and is brought to their homes where the parents are affects and if these parents can’t work from home, they bring it in the work place.

As Dan has mentioned and I can verify, it is expensive going out for a few drinks. The only people who can do it is either young people and adults with no children of school age. People with weans simply can’t go out on a regular basis.

The hospitality sector was an easy target for the Scottish government to be seen that they were doing something against the virus. It’s certainly going to back fire on Sturgeon as people start going back to work tomorrow and receiving emails that the Christmas dinner is cancelled as well as phone calls from friends and family doing the same thing.

@ RoS 8.46 pm

No indeed. As I observed earlier, the light to some is an unwelcome friend.

Strange that he lacks the courage of his convictions or the desire (or perhaps wit?) to engage after first asking for more information, liking some of my tweets, then deleting the ones he obviously couldn’t answer.

That’s no great surprise of course, none of the nativists have answered the questions here over many months, because they can’t contradict the facts, just deflect and misrepresent them, as both you and Lawson were found out doing over on his blog.

Perhaps having his misrepresentations exposed explains all the redacting?

@Dorothy Devine (8.59) –

🙂 🙂 🙂

Aren’t I glad my phone had to be charged after furious sports betting on a great sporting day. Independence supporters knocking lumps out of one another. Sturgeon is a great tactician but the weakest Strategist and the worse FM this devolved Parliament has had. She has destroyed the SNP, only sycophantic supporters hoping to earn a shilling by remaining are left. The duality, ambiguity and division of Scotland has been made worse. Her legacy.

Simple advice from the Rev.

Stop feeding the troll or else lose your place for discussion.

I’m not bothered where residents of Scotland were born. I work with people from every continent daily.
However, residents of Scotland should be expected to show a modicum of commitment to Scotland.
I don’t care whether these residents were born in Scotland, are former refugees or asylum-seekers, immigrants from former British colonies, “captured’ citizens from the EU or ‘economic migrants’ from wherever.
If they’ve been resident in Scotland for five years, they should be entitled to a vote on Scotland’s constitutional future.
If they haven’t resided here for five years, then they haven’t – yet – demonstrated an allegiance to the nation of Scotland and its future.
Anyone commenting here who tries to allege that this opinion is “nativist” will only demonstrate their own dogma and agenda.

New Caledonia had a referendum on independence from France,

` voters will need to be registered on the general electoral roll, and also meet one of the secondary criteria`

At least one parent born in New Caledonia and have their material interests in the territory;

At least 20 years of continuous residence in New Caledonia by 31 December 2014;

Born before 1 January 1989 and have had their residence in New Caledonia between 1988 and 1998;

@Ruby 12:37pm
Are you working out of Bute House?. I suspected your on the SNP payroll. This is a thread devoted to Craig. And you criticised his views. As it happens I don’t agree with his views on the trans issue. Nevertheless we are bound to Independence. But I shouldn’t comment as I didn’t write to him in jail. I have excused myself. More evidence of the SNP hand at work. It will change, perhaps not in my lifetime. Anyway you called out my name, do you you want to know what nursery the Grand bairns go to?. Intimidation doesn’t work. A lesson the SNP have yet to learn.

@Hatuey 2:22am
A great day of sport. You have obviously have never heard of Quark Strangeness and Charm. I went to a Hawkwind concert decades ago. Some naked lady prancing about on the stage stole the headlines. The Quantum Physics was forgotten about.Ah well the truth is always obscured. It was ever thus. Speak soon off to bed.

Andy Ellis says:
12 December, 2021 at 8:24 pm
@ Ruby 8.11 pm

You don’t see the relevance when Iain Lawson is busily deleting comments from Stu Campbell on his blog, as well as from me, about an issue that’s been discussed here?

Odd, but not surprising given what I’ve seen of your output. You seem more concerned about using someone else’s platform to air your woo-woo while accusing him of abandoning you, which is really very peculiar.

If you don’t understand why some of us feel strongly about this, I can’t help you.

Reply

The only thing I know about Iain Lawson is that he has a blog and that is only because you told me.

I understand that blog owners can delete posts if they wish.
Stuart Campbell is luckier than most posters who have posts deleted because he has his own blog where he can make comments until the cows come home without anybody being able to delete them. Possibly they would even be wider read than they would be on Iain Lawson’s blog. I’m just guessing as I said I know next to nothing about Iain Lawson or what is going on his blog.

I understand you are even luckier as you have not just one but two blogs.
“You seem more concerned about using someone else’s platform to air your woo-woo”

I don’t understand why you feel strongly about this because you haven’t told me. You’ve been too busy calling me names.

Feel free to carry on calling me whatever name you want although I’m not sure if ‘moonhowler’ is accurate if that is the term you use to describe people who agree with Ian Lawson and not just a term of endearment.

Hatuey says:

There’s a million better things to do. My latest book: link to amazon.co.uk

Reply

FFS man have you never heard of tiny url?
Look how much better that is!

link to tinyurl.com

Better watch out for Tannadice Boy he might take exception to you talking about football & dugs on a thread devoted to Craig Murray.

If you are looking for people who have a problem with the 2014 IndyRef franchise perhaps you should ask your pal Andy for a link to the Iain Lawson blog.

Time to get on your superman cape and get over there and sort out all these ‘moonhowlers’.

What a shame!
Just when you though you had sorted out all the ‘crackpots’ up pop all these ‘moonhowlers’

Sorry ‘Superman’ no time to for you to teach your dog quantum physics perhaps better just stick to fetch.

My problem with the 2014 IndyRef franchise was that it was debated and decided at Westminster. Not sure how that problem could be solved until we are independent do you?

Assuming the figures from the National Records of Scotland are accurately quoted, then the number of indigenous Scots in Scotland goes down every year and has done since at least 2001.

FACT.

From there, things get more conjectural, but if we surmise that incomers are more likely to support the status quo, then support for Indy is being watered down yearly.

That’s a state of affairs that the Indy movement is either going to have to deal with, or take up a new hobby.

I personally don’t agree there is any ‘moral’ dimension to discussion of the franchise. But that’s just me. Many here seem to be mired in a ‘touchy feely’ vision of Scots Indy which no doubt helps them to feel good behind their keyboards. But meantime, in the real world, Scotland’s decline continues.

As to whether a limitation of the franchise would have an adverse effect, that seems to me to be no more than an unsupported allegation.

So here’s my suggestion. Commission a poll; ask people from a wide range of backgrounds if franchise limitations would affect how they would vote in any future Indy referendum or plebiscitary election.

Introduce some FACTS into this rather pointless rammy.

@Rev Stu 10.29 pm

Fair enough. To be honest it’s very tempting just to give up at this point, which will doubtless please some of those BTL on here no end. You mentioned elsewhere – FB perhaps..? – that you were tempted to withdraw your participation in the Wee Alba Book due to their failure to slap distance themselves from what many of us see as blood and soil nationalism. I share your concern. I thought Alba would be different: perhaps that’s just me being naïve?

As we saw both here and on Iain Lawton’s blog, many of those supporting the nativist prospectus just can’t help themselves labelling those who disagree with them as not “real” nationalists, Sturgeonite stooges, MI5 operatives, or – Grouse Beater’s new insult of choice – “English”. Good grief.

I see on Lawson’s blog the old saw about Rev Stu having the audacity to live in (whisper it….!) Bath, which is in England is being trotted out. Folk on our own side using talking points from the yoon playbook 2014. I don’t even know if I can be bothered making an official complaint about Gareth Wardell to Alba: they certainly haven’t distanced themselves from the “indigenous Scots” narrative, so perhaps they agree with him?

Denise Findlay certainly seems to disagree with the nativists, and I note that David Taylor posted on your FB page that he had it on good authority from Tasmina Sheikh herself that the party did NOT support franchise change. I hope that’s right.

It seems pointless continuing to try and engage with the dwindling band BTL here. Whether there’s a viable alternative forum remains to be seen. Difficult to see anything substantive happening in the short to medium term anyway.

What is going to happen?

1. Will this forum close down with no more comments or polls?

2. Will Rev Stu return to commenting on Scottish politics?

Evidence would suggest Rev Stu is champing at the bit to get stuck back in.

Tannadice Boy 10.29pm
Quite agree.
And i understand why the rev is considering shutting down given the dicks that have hijacked this site drowning it in their own banalities.

OT
link to denisefindlay.org

Posting this as it’s one of “us” standing up to one of “them”.

But, not withstanding the unfairness and injustice of it all on Gordon Millar, I’m sad to report this level of evasion, sophistry, barely concealed derision and contempt is quite the norm whenever you are the victim of Local Authority incompetence and are stupid enough to think making a complaint will help you see justice.

It’s not just an SNP thing, it’s a plague throughout the Local Authority / Quango / Statuary Organisations throughout Scotland.

After years, indeed decades of nursing injuries to my business while trying to secure even a modicum of justice, or even a simple apology, I can only warn you to expect the same contempt and obnoxious dismissive attitude Mr Millar describes.

We have rogues proliferating throughout our Public Sector, from top to bottom, and there is nothing, absolutely nothing, holding them to account.

And before you mention the “O” word, it has been my experience that Ombudsmen are no different, and cut from the same cloth as the rogues they’re meant to be “ombudsmaning”, and will happily lead you on a fruitless wild goose chase of any length of your choosing.

We, as a society, are much too tolerant of this disdain for truth and justice. And I’m sorry to say, if it comes as a shock to you when you experience it first hand, then you’ve clearly not been listening to those who’ve gone before.

And with regards to Craig Murray’s attitudes towards transgender people and self ID, while I fundamentally disagree with self ID myself, and I don’t know anything about Craig’s thinking on the matter, but if you’re aware of the Julian Assange circumstances and Wikileaks history, then you should also be aware of the Chelsea Manning part in that history, and for that reason alone, (which might be totally irrelevant- I don’t know), but I am more than happy to cut Mr Murray a little slack.

He is still one of the good guys with the guts and determination to stand up for beliefs we all share and hold dear to us, … and ok, maybe one or two we don’t. But Craig Murray’s obduracy and integrity are things to be respected. He has earned that right.

Truth be known, if you actually were a Transgender person suffering genuine discrimination, it seems more than likely that Craig Murray will do more to actually further your cause and end that discrimination than a whole army of Trans Taliban nut-jobs with fluffy pink baseball bats. … and in that direction is surely where progress might lie.

Breeks says:
13 December, 2021 at 1:23 pm
And with regards to Craig Murray’s attitudes towards transgender people and self ID, while I fundamentally disagree with self ID myself,

Reply

Breeks:
I would love to see a debate about self-id taking place here.
Would you be prepared to say why you disagree with self-id?

Hi Ruby.

A prerequisite for committing r@p€ is a MALE SEXual organ, to be inserted into one (or more) of three orifices.

The story below shows just how surreal things have become in Scotland.

link to archive.md

“And with regards to Craig Murray’s attitudes towards transgender people and self ID, while I fundamentally disagree with self ID myself,”

Breeks @1.23pm.

Yip, I find myself agreeing with the above, and although Craig Murray’s hearts in the right place I disagree with him on this one as you do. Men should not be able to self ID as women when the notion takes them and then enter women and girls safe spaces, one could say that if you agree with that, then you disagree that women and girls deserve privacy in those spaces.

Craig will probably be coming from the angle of the rights of the men, even then I still can’t agree with it.

@ PacMan on 13 December, 2021 at 1:21 pm

I’m 100% convinced one of them in particular is driven to have WOS comments shut down if not the full site. No need to mention who it is as most folk will know exactly who it is. Thing is though, the rule “DO NOT ENGAGE WITH TROLLS” is there for a very good reason. Its biggest giveaway, for me, is that it never used to post as often until its other account got binned and it was never as articulate in *any* of its previous posts as it is now. Read into that what you will. And there’s very few folk it’s not had a go at, either directly or indirectly.
__________

That’s Tory leaflet crap started coming through the doors here in the Borders from Rachael Hamilton. Filled with all the usual guff about how she’s holding government to account and how this, that and the other is needed for whatever. Harps on about how she’s been meeting & greeting various farmers and how she’s making sure questions are being asked about payments for farmers at Holyrood. Strangely doesn’t mention a word about Brexit though – funny that isn’t it?

She also has the usual photo-shoots included with various locals and charities etc. In several of the pictures she’s breaking Covid rules with John Lamont not wearing masks and standing about 2ft apart. She’s with Morrison’s staff in Hawick and not one wearing a mask. She’s with some other Tory and none of the 2 of them wearing a mask. She’s standing, in the middle, shoulder to shoulder, side-by-side with 2 volunteers outside the Community Larder initiative ‘A Heart For Duns’ and none of the three are wearing a mask. She’s standing among children and other maskless adults at the ‘Great British Beach Clean’ in Eyemouth.

The *only* picture she’s wearing a mask is the one, including John Lamont, taken outside a Fire Station in the Borders which is being used as a Covid-19 testing centre. The 6 others in the picture are all wearing masks too. This photo is billed as her & Lamont “thanking key workers”. The Tories in the Borders have form for using the emergency services in their photo-shoots. They’ve got a nerve considering the devastation their London masters have caused with their approach to this whole pandemic. These pictures are truly sickening.

Lamont & Hamilton’s wee annual Christmas greetings and calendar will soon be dropping through our doors here in the Borders. Aren’t we lucky? Amazing what you can achieve when you are funded by wealthy constituents who think nothing of throwing the odd few grand or more in your direction to do with as you please. It’s the *only* thing these scumbags have got going for them, money. We have all the arguments in our favour but they have all the money to deliver the propaganda.

I remember Rachael Hamilton’s last lot of tripe she sent out. Said she would push for a whole series of roadworks here in the Borders. She knew fine well a large programme of roadworks was already underway. This was so at a later date it would appear as though she was responsible for getting it done. Well, rachael, do you want to take credit for it or not? Because less than 4 months after completion of roads near me there’s ruddy big potholes starting to form. Did you get a refund clause written into the contracts? LOL!

My immediate reaction when I saw Craig Murray entering into the ‘self-id’ debate was:

“Does the man not have enough on his plate at the moment?”

Stoker says:
13 December, 2021 at 2:35 pm
@ PacMan on 13 December, 2021 at 1:21 pm

I’m 100% convinced one of them in particular is driven to have WOS comments shut down if not the full site.

Reply

Did you pick up any hints that ‘The Alba Party’ were also earmarked for similar treatment?

Hi Republicofscotland

It seems archive.is doesn’t work any more for Herald & National

You need to use
link to 12ft.io

to get he full article.
Big thanks to BDTT for link.

link to 12ft.io

“FEARS the pandemic may last into 2025 have emerged raising concerns whether a second independence referendum will take place by 2024.”

“In a sign of how long Whitehall officials fear the crisis will continue, reports today say the Conservative government is laying the groundwork to extend its Covid-19 test and trace system into April 2025,”

I think we all knew this was coming down the pipeline, other countries have held plebiscite elections during this pandemic, Sturgeon, as the Rev said, and most of us know as well, won’t hold an indyref, and certainly not without Westminster’s consent.

link to 12ft.io

Andy “I’m done with this site” just keeps on a-comin…

Republicofscotland says: 13 December, 2021 at 3:51 pm

“FEARS the pandemic may last into 2025 have emerged raising concerns whether a second independence referendum will take place by 2024.”

“In a sign of how long Whitehall officials fear the crisis will continue, reports today say the Conservative government is laying the groundwork to extend its Covid-19 test and trace system into April 2025,”

The pandemic response in the UK won’t be over until it doesn’t overstretch and swamp the NHS.

Given that the NHS is overstretched annually every flu season, never mind with the extra demand of a pandemic, even if Covid gets back to a level where a semblance of normality in our daily lives are gained, I have to be pessimistic despite the cautious optimism I had a few days ago, but it is going to be here for years to come.

That of course is music to the ears of Sturgeon and co who can go to every election and with the promise of a referendum once the pandemic is under control.

Tbh, Andy, you’re probably over-qualified for this gig.

We are all just waiting for Sturgeon to go. When she does, the wheels of progress will turn again.

Five years devoted to division, treachery, and utter madness, instead of independence.

It all could have been so different.

Andy Ellis says:
11 December, 2021 at 10:14 pm

Andy, I was about to ask about your comment from above when hostilities erupted the other day.
Part of that comment was
“it’s pretty reminiscent of how Trump supporters in the USA and Brexiters’ and UKIP’ers here in the UK reacted to those who called them out for their regressive beliefs”

This blanket, scatter-gun response to outcomes you don’t like is not only wrong, Andy, it distorts your own arguments about the EU and Scottish referendum outcomes.
You contend that folks voting ‘Yes’ in 2014 lost because not enough of the electorate had been convinced by the Independence argument.
Yet those who voted remain in 2016 lost because all Brexiters’ had regressive beliefs and NOT because the electorate were unconvinced by the remain argument?

And the American electorate voted for Trump in 2016 (and also in vast numbers in 2020) not because the alternative was appalling, but because everyone who opted for Trump had regressive beliefs?
If you just think about this for a moment Andy: you, @RoS, and @Breeks, from your comments, seem like the three distant points of an equilateral triangle, yet all three of you support Scottish independence and all three of you support continued membership of the EU. On that basis, even though you could not be farther apart on many issues, by your pigeon-holing arguments you are all identical?

I voted leave EU because, among other considerations, as a lifelong supporter of Scottish independence, I could not square that with the Independence in Europe argument (‘The People of Scotland’ comment a while back gives more detail). Others will have their own, and widely differing reasons for thinking or voting in a certain way.

But you must know that Brexit didn’t come about because of Farage or Migrants or ERG, or nutters: it was because borderline voters feared the intransigence of EU structures, the direction of travel, and the perceived ‘deficit of democracy’ within the EU. The result of the vote became a foregone conclusion on the day of Camerons Chamberlain moment when he went to Europe to plead for a list of watered-down concessions and was told to F-off. After that, ‘remainers’ had no hope.

The other ‘referendum’ you mention was the Trump thing. I say referendum in a loose sense, as that is what American elections really are. Again, you tend to use lots of abusive and derogatory terms when describing those who voted for Trump.
Do you not get it that vast numbers of the electorate are not represented by ANY candidate or ANY party? That’s what @ Dan was getting at recently. That’s why we had the excruciating dilemma in May overs SNP1.
Voting for Trump, Corbyn, Farage, Ukip, or many others you will know of in Europe, is NOT ordinary people voting FOR anything, it is us mortals screaming that they are no different to the alternatives on offer. SNP will be in that category too, unless Alba becomes established.

In this country, few hold extreme views. We generally look for magnanimity, justice, and veracity. Every election is decided by those closest to the centre and on that basis your arguments, your passion, would be best placed in that direction.

From the comments contributor who has consistently downgraded the cause of liberty and belittled those who fight for it, the man unwilling to leave the stage after giving his ‘final’ shabby bow, comes the inevitable advocacy of defeatism:

“Until Sturgeon is either removed or finishes her term there is little practical to be done. I agree it could all have been so different.” English Ellis

For those who know what a revolution means and how to win it:

“The motivation for independence is uncomplicated: to install people power able to construct a new society devoid of exploitation, for the happiness and benefit of those who feel themselves to be Scottish. To know you are a Scot, you need to think like a Scot.” GB

Hautey

Whilst I agree with the bulk of your post, I take a different view re…

“Holy purity could be guaranteed if we had a party that was committed to one thing alone, had one policy, and one purpose; achieving independence. I was disappointed to see Alba take the form of a regular political party in that regard, with policies on everything.”

You can’t expect people to vote on a blank prospectus or on the basis of “yes I know you have questions about pensions, defence, currency and health care, but we’ll deal with that after Indy”.

They persuaded enough idiots in England and Wales to vote for Brexit on the basis of that type of campaign, but I doubt, (as was the case in Scotland with Brexit), a majority here would be open to that approach. We’re not so easily persuaded by a bumbling buffoon going on about “pwoth’puh’wing mightily” and a spiv in an Arthur Daley-style covet coat as others elsewhere appear to be.

We just need a viable alternative to the Wokist/Devolutionist SNP.

TODAY. Craig Murray has put this up on his Blog:
———–Nicola Sturgeon’s Motivation————

A random paragraph:
…”The Union appears to be in the gravest of danger. But do not worry, Nicola is there to save the Union, diverting the Independence movement into a choice selection of utterly blind alleys, labeled “COVID freeze”, “Gender Reform”, “Economic Recovery” and “S30 Memorandum”. Nicola will go down in history alongside the Duke of Cumberland as one of the greatest servants of British Unionism…”

As a former SNP voter I now reluctantly agree with Mr. Murray’s article.

Craig Murrays article:
link to tinyurl.com

Apologies Hautey

I misinterpreted your point.

I’ll have no choice but to violently agree with your last.

Please read correction as follows.

Hansard. Millbanksystem.com