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Our work here is done

Posted on August 28, 2021 by

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    309 to “Our work here is done”

    1. Breeks says:

      Nice work Chris, even though it’s grim.

      In other news…

      https://archive.is/aM69K

      ” Edinburgh Yes Hub are holding another “question time” style debate, though without the rancour and BBC bias, on September 21 in the Queen’s Hall in Edinburgh.

      SNP and Greens invited, but not seeing ALBA spokesperson on the guest list. Feel bound to ask whether the rancour and BBC bias been replaced by someone else’s?

    2. Robert Hughes says:

      Touch of old Hieronymous there Chris ? Excellent work .

      Think you know the answer to your own question Breeks .

      The Independence gatekeepers will try to exclude ALBA at every turn . I believe to know avail

      ” The more you refuse to hear my voice
      The louder I will sing
      You hide behind walls of Jericho
      Your lies will come tumbling
      Deny my place in time
      You squander wealth that’s mine
      My light will shine so brightly
      It will blind you
      Cos there’s
      Something inside so strong “

    3. Ruby says:

      Thanks to Hieronymus Bosch (you Sicko!)

      I think that is unfair to Hieronymus Bosch he ain’t no Sicko just no good at painting fantasy!

      I think he may have inspired an artist working with an old ripped off copy of photoshop who is currently doing excellent work which features a lot of magpies & ‘Morphy Richards’ irons.

    4. Ruby says:

      I really admire Chris’s patience. It must take ages to draw all this little figures. Bloody well done.

      Figuring out all the symbolism in that cartoon could take a lot more patience than I have. I’m still stuck with the ‘Morphy Richards’ iron.

      I’m relying on you guys to the work. Cheers!

    5. Ruby says:

      I’m relying on you guys to do the work. Cheers!

    6. Robert Hughes says:

      ” ….to NO avail “

    7. Ruby says:

      When you have finished figuring out all the symbolism in Chris’s latest cartoon could you please go back to ‘Behind the Walls’ thread to talk about books?

      Do we want the ‘Saughton Prison Library’ to end up with 50 copies of ‘War & Peace’?

      Many thanks you are all wonderful.

    8. willie says:

      Good stuff Chris Cairns.

      Producing this might get the cartoonist nark of your back. Since you’ve been away he’s been giving it big licks about slacky holiday boy being away etcetera ad infinitum.

      Of course we’re glad to see him back of course with his own ghost appearances.

      On a much more grave note the cartoon couldn’t help me think about the mighty imperial British having their ass hanging out in tatters in what resembles Suez or the fall of Singapore.

      They did not die in vain – aye right. We should all remember that clarion call because Afghanistan has been a terrible, in fact criminal military misadventure. Many poor souls have paid with their lives and or are living with the legacy of disfigurement today.

      What did they die for?

    9. Knowing the US and their lap dog UK they will set up and finance a insurgency group in Afghanistan,

      cause they don`t seem to know any other way, they are still fighting the Cold War,so called `Communism` versus Greed.

      a never ending circle of death and destruction for the citizens of Afghanistan.

    10. Ruby says:

      The big wake up call for me was the ‘Iraq War’ I believe that was also the reason why Humza Yousaf went into politics & supported independence.

      I admired him for that and up until recently I had a great deal of respect for ‘Humza Yousaf’ but sadly that respect has been eroded.

      Same applies to most of the SNP politicians.

      Perhaps politicians should be restricted to only one five year term in office. It seems any longer is damaging.

    11. Frank Gillougley says:

      dear Rev,

      any idea when your twitter will be reincarnated as it keeps me sane.

    12. Captain Yossarian says:

      With today’s cartoon and yesterday’s article on Craig Murray, it shows that, even in retirement, WoS beats most of the newspapers.

      The problem in Afghanistan now is that no-one knows whether there have been 10,000 hostages left behind or 20,000?

    13. holymacmoses says:

      Well Mr Cairns – you’ve outdrawn yourself. Sometimes it’s words that we need, sometimes it’s an artist and sometimes it’s a bite of music.
      In retirement, these pages still manages to provide two of the three necessities to carry on with a little bit of hope.
      Thanks a million to you both

    14. Frank Gillougley says:

      Chris, couldn’t tell if you were describing Kabul or the bonfire that is Scotland

    15. Luigi says:

      I would liked to have heard Craig Murray’s analysis of this awful situation. Unfortunately he has been effectively silenced for the time being. I shudder what the situation in Afghanistan will be like when Craig is free again. Awful just awful. The disgusting fact is that those responsible for this neocon debacle will be the last to suffer what’s coming.

    16. Republicofscotland says:

      So much to take in from that artwork Chris, its a cross between a Picasso painting and an image from the long gone South Bank show.

      Anyway we know that our COPFS is bent, as is the Scottish government, and that Police Scotland are just as bad, covering up the untimely death of Sheku Bayoh, but there’s far more, as Police Scotland have paid out over a million quid (tip of the iceberg) in hush money.

      https://archive.is/cNPRy

    17. Republicofscotland says:

      Edinburgh’s AUOB march has had to be moved from the 2nd of October to the 25th of September, on advice from authorities.

      AUOB’s Stirling march will take place on the 11th of September for those that wish to attend either or both if inclined.

    18. Camy says:

      I suspect that it’s a critique on the non availability of German power tools post Brexit

    19. Hatuey says:

      We are assuming it’s a reference to Afghanistan but we’ve created a few “gardens” like that, all over the region, in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, to name a few.

      ‘Disaster capitalism’ and ‘disaster foreign policy’ combine well in creating the conditions for terrorism to flourish and the pretext for future defence spending, interventions, and wars.

      Further bucks are to be made “reconstructing” the “gardens” we create. It’s ‘Ground Force’ for sociopaths, with scum like Blair and Bush standing in for Titchmarsh and Dimmock…

      I’m no knocking it. Well, not entirely. I appreciate that without this “dynamism” the US and UK economies would flatline. More so than ever we depend on sowing seeds of destruction in these gardens of earthly delights.

      What else is there for us in a world that’s better than us at just about everything else? Death and destruction is all we are good at. In truth, it’s pretty much all we were ever good at.

    20. Republicofscotland says:

      Its interesting to note as one alert reader in the National newspaper points out, that Sturgeon decided to have her photo shoot op in the Golden Jubilee hospital in Glasgow, where there’s no A&E, so the media wouldn’t see the huge queues of folk waiting to get in, or treated, or those turned away deemed not to be sick enough.

      On top of this NHS Larnarkshire, (as Sturgeon was posing with hi-tech surgical equipment) was announcing that it was postponing all its elective surgery. In my opinion the £1 billion pounds investment proposed for the NHS by Sturgeon won’t be enough to make a real dent in waiting times figures.

    21. sarah says:

      @ Frank Gillougley: is this Edinburgh or Afghanistan?

      Snap.

    22. Willie says:

      Hatuey, I most certainly would not call Afghanistan an earthly delight. Have you been on the electric soup this morning good Sir.

      From what I can see Afghanistan has been a violent brutal country at war with itself for the last few hundred years or so. Of course foreign powers have contributed to that internal dissent by supporting insurgency groups and direct military interventions from back in Victorian times, to the Soviet intervention to the recent US and British intervention. All went sour with the interventionist powers being routed – and this case the British for the second time exposed as a faded imperial power.

      And then of course there is the impact of religion. Of course people should be free to practice and worship whatever form of religion they want. But Islam does seem to have a side to it that is incompatible with the modern rights and freedoms of Western society. And before anyone calls me racist for saying that, folks, especially women, should ask themselves if they would like Sharia Law, Taliban, Isis or Saudi Arabian imposed on them. Somehow I don’t think many would and the point is religion, and religions, not just Islam can be unhealthy.

      But I suspect Huey that your good self already knows that and that ‘ earthly delights ‘ was a tinge of sarcasm. God forbid that we ever get locked down by a rigid restrictive ideology. Mind you when you look at some of the current political incumbents, their aides, and senior civil servants like Nicola Sturgeon, Shirley Anne Somerville, Leslie Evans, Liz Lloyd, Susan Ruddick and others you do wonder, because Scotland ain’t no earthly paradise!

    23. J.o.e says:

      ‘I’m no knocking it. Well, not entirely. I appreciate that without this “dynamism” the US and UK economies would flatline. More so than ever we depend on sowing seeds of destruction in these gardens of earthly delights.

      What else is there for us in a world that’s better than us at just about everything else? Death and destruction is all we are good at. In truth, it’s pretty much all we were ever good at.’

      Not only does this statement display a stunning lack of economic knowledge it also displays a total ignorance of history and a will to blame us Europeans and European descendants for the woes of the world.

      If you want to look at the destruction of middle Eastern countries and the opening of our borders, the growth of the military industrial complex, the neocons etc then the people you primarily need to look at are the Zionist establishment.

    24. Kevin Cargill says:

      Ok I give up. Where’s Cilla?

      Oops. Wrong sicko!

      Brilliant work Chris.

    25. robertknight says:

      Bloody hell Mr Cairns…

      Recon I’ve got PTSD just from looking at the detail.

      You deserve another holiday after churning that one out.

      Jeez-oh…

    26. SilverDarling says:

      A nod to ‘The Garden of Earthly Delights’.

      We have indeed learned nothing and although I’m not religious it does feel a bit like the end of times.

      Have a nice weekend everyone!

    27. Breeks says:

      The very last thing I want to be is an apologist for the Taliban, nor do I condone any atrocity or brutality, but I genuinely wonder whether “the West” looking from the outside into a radical Islamist Afghanistan bears comparison beside a Muslim world looking from the outside into a radical Western enclave in Israel, usurped territory which completely disrespects the UN and International Law with impunity, treats Palestinians barbarically while destroying their livelihoods, killing their children, stealing their land, and even ploughing up their basic road infrastructure, and is furthermore routinely used as a base from which the West can launch air strikes, bombings, spy missions, and drone strike assassinations into sovereign states without even any pretence of a trial.

      And yet it’s “us” who are meant to fear the Taliban. Just imagine how you’d feel living in Scotland if Westminster, in cahoots with the USA, arbitrarily decreed that all roads connecting Glasgow and Edinburgh had to be ploughed up and made permanently impassable, and deployed armoured bulldozers to make it so. And the kids getting shot for throwing stones weren’t Palestinian children, but ordinary and angry, Scottish kids.

      I’ve said as much before, but I’ll say it again, it is us, our collective Western foreign policy throughout the Middle East, which is responsible for the radicalisation of Islam. We created the Taliban. It is our chicken coming home to roost.

      We cannot defeat Islam, not because Islam is strong, but because no right thinking neutral can look at how the West abuses the people who live throughout the Middle East and condone “our” conduct and highly selective interpretation of laws, decency, and humanity. Without justice and equity, there will never be closure nor an end to this. Never.

      Start being honest about it. The West isn’t seeking peace in the Middle East, it is demanding capitulation and subjugation, – fealty. But surrendering that freedom is that which no honest man Muslim gives up but with life itself. Does that sound familiar to your ear?

      I happened to watch that 300 movie last night, the one with Gerard Butler and 300 Spartans in their underpants, and I couldn’t help noticing how Americanised the script was….

      The 300 Spartans are styled as “free men” defending a democracy and standing up to an all-powerful Tyrant with unlimited military resource at his disposal. The Spartans euthanise their weak children, submit the rest to a lifetime of violence or prostitution for dirty old men, rolls which they mustn’t complain about, are immune to the seductions of Xerxes, he has nothing they want, and despite the impossible odds and certainty of death, they are ready, willing, and able to forfeit their lives because their warrior society expects that ultimate sacrifice from them.

      I’m curious. Why is that act of suicidal sacrifice noble heroism from a Spartan, but it’s radicalised terrorism from a Muslim?

      I repeat, I am absolutely not condoning the Taliban, not one atrocity, inhumanity or murder of the innocent, or cowardly suicide bomber do I excuse. I am simply asking the question, what else did we expect to happen?

    28. Dan says:

      SilverDarling says: at 12:01 pm

      We have indeed learned nothing…

      I disagree! Due to some bright spark discovering pixels we have at least learnt to capture high resolution images, that on occasion highlight that the modern day garden of earthly delights appear little different to what Hieronymus Bosch created back in t’day.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-35214873

    29. J.o.e says:

      @Breeks

      ‘The west’ acts in accordance with the wishes of the Zionists. Or at least the major governments do.

      The biggest player in this is the US, obviously.

      Ex congresswoman Cynthia Mckinney once spoke openly about how the Israeli lobby expected her to pledge allegiance to Israel or they would fund her opponents.

      The weight that Israel carries in the US is absolutely immense to the point that the US is now pretty much a puppet state.

      I refuse to accept this blame for the West in general. It is utter garbage foisted on us by a media who largely rests in the hands of the culprits.

    30. Ottomanboi says:

      While «the West» spirals into panic and self laceration many are welcoming the return of Taliban rule.
      Some peace may finally return. So what you cant be a fake American or Brit and western «culture» goes in the trash. The peoples of Afghanistan are tough, they’ll survive.
      Not too sure about «the West» though.

    31. Captain Yossarian says:

      “The peoples of Afghanistan are tough, they’ll survive”.

      There was a chap on Channel 4 News last night saying that someone the Taliban accused of working for the enemy had both legs broken as punishment. A woman who refused to cook for the Taliban was burned alive. Believe me, this is just the beginning. Afghanistan has turned the clock back to the 7th Century.

    32. J.o.e says:

      ‘There was a chap on Channel 4 News last night’

      FFS

    33. J.o.e says:

      @Ottomanboi

      I want this incarnation of ‘the west’ to die.

      We have become nothing short of brain washed consumerist weaklings

    34. Captain Yossarian says:

      Don’t vex yourself J.o.e, I’m not Prince Charles. Folk from Glasgow use words like chap all the time and everyone knows what they mean.

    35. J.o.e says:

      @Captain Yossarian

      Quoting the TV is what caused the face-palm

    36. Dorothy Devine says:

      Yes Breeks and we all have to bear in mind we are not shown the strewn body parts caused by our ‘humanitarian” interventions or the wedding parties splattered into pieces by drone attacks – but by Jove those other chaps are terrorists, doncha know.

      Palestinian kids being mown down in parks or playing on beaches doesn’t seem to enter the collective western media mind as an act of terrorism.

      And no-on has ever explained to me what an ‘insurgent’ is – a freedom fighter fighting for his or her country to be free from outside invasion? or just labelled as another kind of terrorist?

    37. Hugh Jarse says:

      You’re familiar with the scenes at closing time at CC’s when Holyrood is sitting then Chris?

      What a shift!
      Holiday weekend, at least, is deserved.

    38. Republicofscotland says:

      Captain Yossarian @12.54pm.

      Your not related to Zbigniew Brzezinski by any chance are you? for this is the kind of stuff the Brzezinski said to stir up trouble in the region under Jimmy Carter as US POTUS

    39. Hatuey says:

      willie “Hatuey, I most certainly would not call Afghanistan an earthly delight. Have you been on the electric soup this morning good Sir.”

      It’s not my analogy, squire. I merely went along with it.

    40. Linda McFarlane says:

      Hellscape right enough Chris.

    41. Republicofscotland says:

      “I’m curious. Why is that act of suicidal sacrifice noble heroism from a Spartan, but it’s radicalised terrorism from a Muslim?”

      Breeks @12.19pm.

      I’m pretty sure Breeks its based on the Western civilisations choosing the ancient Greek culture and achievements, to then base Western society on them, men such as Socrates, Archimedes, Aristotle etc are, were the basis of our Western learning.

      It’s well known that those groomed for high posts learn works such as Homers Iliad, of which its said Boris Johnson can recite it in Latin.

    42. wee monkey says:

      Camy says:
      28 August, 2021 at 10:14 am
      I suspect that it’s a critique on the non availability of German power tools post Brexit

      FAKE.

      Just bought “German” cordless tools AKA strimmer and hedge cutter last week and this week.

    43. Hatuey says:

      Joe “Not only does this statement display a stunning lack of economic knowledge it also displays a total ignorance of history and a will to blame us Europeans and European descendants for the woes of the world.”

      It is a matter of fact and not opinion that European expansion from the early 16th century onwards depended so much on violence that it is virtually impossible to make any meaningful distinction between that violence and the expansion itself.

      If you take the exploits of Cortes in the Americas as a starting point and join the dots all the way through to say The Scramble for Africa, you will see the common denominator is violence. That’s the foundations of our global economy today.

      It isn’t in any way controversial to suggest that there would be no United States today if there had been no willingness on the part of Europeans to engage in wholesale industrial violence. The same can be said of many places, including Australia, South Africa, Singapore, etc., and all the central of hubs of today’s global economy.

      It’s hard to believe that we could ever have negotiated these sorts of settlements. Impressive as our trinkets were back in the day, I don’t think the 50 millions native American Indians that were wiped out in North America, for example, would have given their lives and land for them.

      Christ, even the pathetic Belgians were at it. Do you know they had human zoos right into the 1950s in Belgium?

      That’s all pretty basic stuff as far as history goes — anyone can read that and validate it in seconds.

      It all gets much more interesting and diabolical when you consider that the era is referred to as the age of “European enlightenment”.

      Well, thank fuck we go enlightened. I can’t imagine what the world would be like now if we took one of our dark turns back then.

    44. Republicofscotland says:

      Hatuey @2.13pm.

      Lets not forget that the French were still using the guillotine right up until 1977, the same year the film Star Wars was released.

    45. Captain Yossarian says:

      ….and let’s not forget, while we’re all putting the boot into the Europeans, that the Taliban are still cutting folk’s heads off with kitchen knifes and throwing folk off roofs.

    46. J.o.e says:

      @Hatuey

      An honest look at history will show that brutality was the name of the game with nearly every aristocrat or king (or queen). The Europeans are not unique in this.

      When it comes to slavery the Barbary slave trade dwarfs the transatlantic slave trade and was busy enslaving the same Europeans you want to blame for everything. It was the Royal Navy and European descended men who mainly put an end to the transatlantic slave trade.

      That’s just one example the people in our midst like to avoid when talking about all the reasons to hate ourselves.

      However the contributions we Scots have made to the industrial and scientific world has been immense. No single people have contributed more, particularly on a per capita basis. Europeans in general are intelligent, enlightened and open minded peoples and have contributed massively to human progress. Any other take on it is utter garbage. What we are faced with now is a ‘woke’ movement backed by the corporate world that is fully intent on destroying us as definable peoples.

      When it comes to the 20th century I will let 2 different Rabbi’s explain who the main mass murderers have been, who has written our history curriculum and why we are where we are now.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn_g0B6bncE

      https://odysee.com/@WissenistMacht:b/Rabbi-Yaron-Reuven-erkl%C3%A4rt:e?

    47. t42 says:

      Retired generals are appearing on MSM to read the following messages:
      -It was an “accident” to leave hundreds of tanks, weapons and helicopters in Afghanistan.
      -Russia and China are “celebrating” having a heavily armed, failed state on their borders.

      Never trust the MSM. Never trust NATO. Never trust a unionist.

    48. Breeks says:


      Hatuey says:
      28 August, 2021 at 2:13 pm

      ….Well, thank fuck we go enlightened. I can’t imagine what the world would be like now if we took one of our dark turns back then.

      We did?

      Frankly, I’ve pretty much given up on humanity. All the ingenuity we have and the waste we put it too.

      It’s the animals I mourn. The ecosystems nature honed over millions of years which barely survive decades of human contact. Whether it’s the mind numbing insanity of wiping out bison in their millions to deny native Americans food, or factory farming whales, sharks, or even hoovering up sand eels to turn into fertilisers while wee Puffins are forced to starve.

      We decry Brazil’s destruction of rainforest, and we’re appalled that lions, tigers and rhino’s are all dwindling through loss of habitat, but “we” speak as a colonial nation who pretty much introduced big game hunting, purged our homeland of all apex predators larger than a fox, yet still persecute the foxes, raptors and fish for entertainment.

      We’re enlightened now are we? I don’t see it myself. We are an infestation on our planet that is driving other species past the point of survivability. We fret about our own extinction level calamity but are oblivious to the extinction level events we have suffered on species after species. Even the bees and butterfly’s are dying out because we sterilise their environment with poisons and our bumbling, crass interference.

      I hope this a phase humanity is going through, and the collective penny drops that the wonder of our planet is it’s equilibrium and biodiversity, of which we humans are just one small part. Sadly, I think we are already far, far too numerous in population, and our proliferation still grows unchecked. True wilderness and all the critters you’ll find there, are living on borrowed time.

      As a species we are looking further and further into space for signs of life on other planets, while at the same time wiping out species after species, and erasing habitat after habitat on the most wondrous, unimaginably brilliant world we could ever hope to discover.

      Maybe the reason we can’t find life elsewhere is because it’s all hiding, or maybe these other life forms recognised our potential and banished the blue marble with the naked apes on it to the most remote, obscure and desolate part of the Universe, light years away from all contact because they knew what a pestilence we would become.

      There is no human progress, none, not one, that can compare to delicate perfection of the tiniest hummingbird or honey bee who evolve in perfect symbiosis with the plants they depend upon for food. A tiny wee critter that is indescribably beautiful and even defies gravity, has sussed out life on Earth far better than we “geniuses” have.

    49. twathater says:

      To describe this work of art as a cartoon is demonstrably insulting , unfortunately it is a depiction of the depravity and cruelty humans are capable of inflicting on others without remorse
      It has been said many times the lessons history is meant to teach us are never learned

      The USA and its UK puppet alongside many other supposedly civilised countries put despotic regimes to shame when it comes to destabilising countries and nations they wrote the book

      Your art tells stories Chris ,sometimes stories that tell the truth are repugnant

    50. David Caledonia says:

      FFs

      Now they’re yapping aboot a fecking cartoon

    51. Mist001 says:

      Thing is, it strikes me that the USA is running out of countries to invade. Maybe that’s why they’re talking about going to the Moon, they don’t have anywhere on Earth left to invade.

    52. Ruby says:

      wee monkey says:
      28 August, 2021 at 2:05 pm
      Camy says:
      28 August, 2021 at 10:14 am
      I suspect that it’s a critique on the non availability of German power tools post Brexit

      FAKE.

      Just bought “German” cordless tools AKA strimmer and hedge cutter last week and this week.

      Reply

      Would that be from a company owned by a descendant of old Hieronymus?

      Me too I bought a cordless vacuum cleaner. Did you know the batteries for all Bosch power tools & vacuum cleaners are interchangeable!

    53. Ruby says:

      David Caledonia says:
      28 August, 2021 at 5:03 pm
      FFs

      Now they’re yapping aboot a fecking cartoon

      Reply

      What’s wrong grumpy?

      You could always go to ‘Behind the Walls’ thread and yap about what books would be good to send Craig/’The Saughton Prison Library’.

      Yap? Is that a clue to where you normally do your yapping? Woof!

    54. Anne Galloway says:

      Has anyone seen the extracts in the Times today from David Clegg’s new book on Alex Salmond rehashing the allegations from the alphabeties? How on earth can Clegg get away with this given the amount of detail he goes into about the complainers.

    55. sarah says:

      @ Breeks at 4.03: I too have been noticing the brilliant systems of non-human life all around. Without us messing up the environment they would do just fine.

      Turning to useless humans, the Green Party members have failed to help us out of a hole and have voted in favour of the Cosy Corrupt not-a-coalition. I am almost in despair.

    56. Republicofscotland says:

      “.and let’s not forget, while we’re all putting the boot into the Europeans, that the Taliban are still cutting folk’s heads off with kitchen knifes and throwing folk off roofs.”

      Captain Yossarian.

      The Taliban could kill ten folk a day and they still wouldn’t make a dent on the murders committed by the Great Satan, in the false name of war on terror.

      https://consortiumnews.com/2018/03/22/how-many-millions-of-people-have-been-killed-in-americas-post-9-11-wars-part-one-iraq/

      https://consortiumnews.com/2018/04/03/how-many-people-has-the-u-s-killed-in-its-post-9-11-wars-part-2-afghanistan-and-pakistan/

      https://consortiumnews.com/2018/04/25/how-many-millions-have-been-killed-in-americas-post-9-11-wars-part-3-libya-syria-somalia-and-yemen/

      You’re either naive, or an apologist for Western atrocities, or you’re getting paid to spout your shit.

    57. Republicofscotland says:

      So it turns out in a report by a war correspondent with thirty-five years of covering wars in Bosnia, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Libya, Sudan, that twenty-eight Taliban guards helping the US soldiers to search those coming to the airport in Kabul also died in the blast from a suicide bombers vest, which was unusually heavy at twenty-five pounds.

      Some of the other Afghans who died after the explosion died from gunfire from US troops says the BBC.

      https://twitter.com/ejmalrai/status/1431121009357242371

      https://twitter.com/SecKermani/status/1431517279859224579

    58. Breeks says:

      Mist001 says:
      28 August, 2021 at 5:05 pm
      Thing is, it strikes me that the USA is running out of countries to invade. Maybe that’s why they’re talking about going to the Moon, they don’t have anywhere on Earth left to invade.

      I disagree. They are still spoiling for a fight in the South China Sea… but it’s more likely to be bravado.

      What might have the US cooling it’s jets might actually be the assault on the Whitehouse by Trump supporters, and the visceral threat of a US Civil War, or at least, localised anarchies.

      I’m not in the US, so might well be reading things quite wrongly, but some of the testimony from Whitehouse Security and Police was powerful stuff, and the assault was seen by some as a failed coup. I think the US, post Trump, is trying to get the genie back in the bottle and harbour a bit more tolerance and moderation.

      I think America actually gave itself a big fright on the home front, and a trip to the moon with US flags all over it might heal some of the division.

    59. Captain Yossarian says:

      RoS – I suspect you have some sort of mild pre-condition of OCD re the ‘Great Satan’. Does anyone else in the world refer to them as the ‘Great Satan?’…..other than Iran?

    60. Ruby says:

      Anne Galloway says:
      28 August, 2021 at 5:18 pm
      Has anyone seen the extracts in the Times today from David Clegg’s

      Reply
      Yes I read that. Same old same old! Alex Salmond is guilty.

      Wonder why this is happening could it be Alex Salmond is on the move.

      I have decided not to post an archived link to the article.

    61. Republicofscotland says:

      Captain Yossarian.

      Consecutive US administrations or the Great Satan as I like to refer to them, are responsible via their foreign policies, for much of the wars civil, or other, that are going on, and have gone on around the world today or in the past.

      Infact America has no allies only hostages, as Australia found out, now it economy is flagging because its the tip of the Great Satan’s spear in the economic war on China.

      Now the question is what does this all mean for Australia?” Mearsheimer said. “Well, you’re in a quandary for sure. Everybody knows what the quandary is. And by the way you’re not the only country in East Asia that’s in this quandary. You trade a lot with China, and that trade is very important for your prosperity, no question about that. Security-wise you really want to go with us. It makes just a lot more sense, right? And you understand that security is more important than prosperity, because if you don’t survive, you’re not gonna prosper.”

      “Now some people say there’s an alternative: you can go with China,” said Mearsheimer. “Right you have a choice here: you can go with China rather the United States. There’s two things I’ll say about that. Number one, if you go with China you want to understand you are our enemy. You are then deciding to become an enemy of the United States. Because again, we’re talking about an intense security competition.”

      “You’re either with us or against us,” he continued. “And if you’re trading extensively with China, and you’re friendly with China, you’re undermining the United States in this security competition. You’re feeding the beast, from our perspective. And that is not going to make us happy. And when we are not happy you do not want to underestimate how nasty we can be. Just ask Fidel Castro.”

    62. Republicofscotland says:

      Re my 6.56pm comment a link would be nice.

      https://caitlinjohnstone.substack.com/p/america-has-no-allies-only-hostages

    63. Shug says:

      Mr Jack and Co might want to take a moment to reflect on how Westminster treats its supporters and place men in Afghanistan

      Old Arab saying better to be the the Englishman’s enemy than his friend. If you his enemy he will try and buy you if your his friend he will sell you

      I wonder how quickly Westminster will drop Jack and Dross

      Should unionists be barred from office in an Indy Scotland to stop them acting in England’s interest

    64. J.o.e says:

      ‘I’m not in the US, so might well be reading things quite wrongly, but some of the testimony from Whitehouse Security and Police was powerful stuff, and the assault was seen by some as a failed coup. I think the US, post Trump, is trying to get the genie back in the bottle and harbour a bit more tolerance and moderation.’

      I would advise you get your head out of MSM or silicon valley. Whichever it is that’s got you this uninformed.

    65. Hatuey says:

      Of course, in terms of moral responsibility, you can’t point to the terrible things others have done as an excuse or justification for the terrible things you do. Kant worked all this out hundreds of years ago and his ideas form the basis of most modern western judicial systems today.

      Try telling a policeman or a judge that he should overlook your crimes because someone somewhere else committed comparable or more heinous crimes. In terms of a legal defence, that sort of argument is likely to result in you doing more time, not less.

      But this is the whataboutery we are forced to deal with when someone attempts to give an honest account of European history and our relationship with the rest of the world.

      It’s possible people like Joe and a Yossarian aren’t even aware they’re doing it, such is the power of propaganda in schools, etc. Thus, like English nationalists when you discuss the misery Britain imposed on India, the focus always switches to talk of railways, industry, and innovation when any mention is made of the brutality that underpinned everything as far as the rise of Europe is concerned.

    66. Hugh Jarse says:

      Since Scotland’s justice is flexible (and failing), and fairness is in short supply, using ‘dirty’ tactics could be forgiven.

      Scotland’s Shame!

      Just a list, no explanations required.

      Only a bit of fun.
      Make it so.

    67. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ruby.

      Why shouldn’t others read the hatchet job in The Times, courtesy of David Clegg and Kieran Andrews? I’m sure there’s jigsaw info in that article, surrounding the April 2014 visit to Brugges.

      https://archive.is/LhRww

    68. Captain Yossarian says:

      @Hatuey – I’ve worked with many, many Indians and they have no problem with anyone from these shores. You’re right, the focus nearly always does switch to railways and bridges, but that focus is shifted there by the Indians themselves, not by us.

    69. sarah says:

      @ BDTT: thanks for the link. What a hatchet job it is, as you say.

      If we didn’t know better from the jury’s verdict, and from the reactions from people like Robin McAlpine, Martin Hannnan and Craig Murray who have seen evidence of the conspiracy, one might be duped into accepting this version of events.

      Also the Rev’s digging into the links between Clegg and the FM’s inner circle.

    70. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Clegg = Daily Record ne pas?
      Via his girlfriend?

      The whole thing stinks.

    71. Ruby says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      28 August, 2021 at 8:34 pm
      Hi Ruby.

      Why shouldn’t others read the hatchet job in The Times, courtesy of David Clegg and Kieran Andrews? I’m sure there’s jigsaw info in that article, surrounding the April 2014 visit to Brugges.

      https://archive.is/LhRww

      Reply
      Ach I don’t know maybe your right & people should read it but then again it’s pretty desperate stuff. I just didn’t want to give them any publicity. Yes you are probably correct about there being jigsaw info in the article & how much more will there be in the book.

      The bit that got me was the following which I thought was desperate stuff:

      ‘The first sign of trouble came on October 30, when a female staff member expressed discomfort after Salmond asked her to watch a film with him in the study of Bute House. She said he had switched the lights off and pushed two chairs together. While she stressed “no inappropriate contact” had taken place, and did not want to make a formal complaint, she was unsettled enough to share her concerns.’

      I suppose I thought I’m not going to post a link & insult people with such garbage.

      Also there’s a bit about the civil servant using terms like ‘angry pig’ and ‘disgusting pig’. What civil servant would use language like that?

    72. Hatuey says:

      You can’t be a racist because you have black friends, yosser, is that the idea? And we will just need to take your word for it.

      Got it.

      The problem, of course, is that it wouldn’t matter if the whole of India was best friends and agreed with everything you said about British India.

      Because none of that would change the fact that the average life expectancy of an Indian in 1905 was about 19 years old. None of it would alter the fact that India accounted for about 35% of world economic output in 1700 when the British arrived, and about 2% of global GDP when they left.

      As for India’s railways, they were put in place for two principal reasons; 1) to make it easier to get the booty out, and 2) to facilitate moving troops around and putting down rebellions. On those terms, yes, it was a huge success.

      Some halfwit earlier accused me of having a flimsy understanding of history and economics. I sincerely wish that was the case.

    73. Hatuey says:

      RoS: “Some of the other Afghans who died after the explosion died from gunfire from US troops says the BBC.”

      The only surprise there is who is saying it.

    74. Ruby says:

      sarah says:
      28 August, 2021 at 9:15 pm
      one might be duped into accepting this version of events.

      Reply

      Well I suppose you could if you believe every bit of garbage written by folk like David Clegg.

      I read the article and immediately thought it was a complete load of rubbish & not worth discussing.

      But hey if it’s being discussed I’ll join in.

      The other thing I found laughable was Nicola Sturgeon being described as a feminist. What a joke!

    75. sarah says:

      O?T: Books for Craig Murray. Does anyone e.g. Ruby know if we can now send books from any source e.g. secondhand book shop to Craig or must it still be via Amazon, Blackwells, Waterstones?

    76. Ruby says:

      sarah says:
      28 August, 2021 at 9:48 pm
      O?T: Books for Craig Murray. Does anyone e.g. Ruby know if we can now send books from any source e.g. secondhand book shop to Craig or must it still be via Amazon, Blackwells, Waterstones?

      Reply

      Sorry I don’t know that Sarah.

      There seems to be a shortage of info re sending books.
      Isn’t it the case that we are now sending books to the prison library rather than directly to Craig.

      We need some proper advice. Properly would be best coming from the prison librarian. It might be possible to contact him/her directly.

    77. President Xiden says:

      Welcome back my friends to the fear that never ends and watch in innocent wonderment as the Covid crisis merges seamlessly into the climate crisis leading to similar restrictions on our freedoms.

    78. Mist001 says:

      “All fine,” she replied. “He’s a pig, but he’s not an angry pig today. Just a disgusting one.”

      It’s not a complaint, it’s an opinion.

    79. Captain Yossarian says:

      @Hatuey – I didn’t say they were my friends, I said I worked with them. The last time I worked with Indians there were 5 of them. The opinion, passed down from parents and grandparents, is what I was passing-on to you. Take it or leave it. It’s best to hear it from those who know what they are talking about.

    80. Ruby says:

      ‘On the 30th October in the study of Bute House Alex Salmond tied a civil servant to a chair, put the lights out and forced her to watch porn on the telly while he sat master-bating in the chair next to hers.
      Is what the manipulative Clegg wants you to infer.

      If that had been the story then I might have given some credence to the Albabetties accusations of sexual assault.

      The truth is probably that on 30th October in the study of Bute House Alex Salmond asked a civil servant if she would like to watch a film. She agreed and Alex Salmond rearranged to furniture so that they both had a good view of the TV screen, he put the lights out to cut out reflections.

      If this civil servant was so ill at ease in Alex Salmond’s company then why wasn’t she deemed unsuitable for the post and transferred?

    81. Hugh Jarse says:

      Twa unelected wokies, of the worst, green variety, are now set to rule over us.
      Cabinet meetings will need to allow for some extra time, to cover the additional pronoun usage.

      Tourism slogan.
      “Come to Scotland, we’re giving power away!”
      🙁
      Flee young sane people of Scotia.
      The ba’s burst.

    82. Ruby says:

      Mist001 says:
      28 August, 2021 at 10:02 pm
      “All fine,” she replied. “He’s a pig, but he’s not an angry pig today. Just a disgusting one.”

      It’s not a complaint, it’s an opinion.

      Reply

      It makes you wonder what sort of relationship there was between this civil servant & Michael McElhinney for her to write in such an informal manner & why anyone thought if was appropriate for her to continue in the post.

      Could be we are discussing just a load of made up garbage and none of what Clegg has written is anywhere near the truth.

    83. robertknight says:

      Oh, I dearly hope AS has a legal team in place to de-bag Clegg et al.

      Popcorn please…

    84. Hatuey says:

      I’ll leave it, yosser. Reality and truth matters, regardless of opinions. If this place stands for anything, it stands for that.

    85. Ruby says:

      Hatuey says:
      28 August, 2021 at 9:36 pm
      You can’t be a racist because you have black friends, yosser, is that the idea? And we will just need to take your word for it.

      Reply

      It could be the term racist is a misnomer. I’m looking for a word that describes people who just like what they are familiar with (which I think is most everyone) xenophobe is a bit too negative.

      If you replaced racist with xenophobe or something less negative then you could be a xenophobe and have black friends because it’s not the colour of the person skin that is being objected to but the huge difference in their way of life & culture. A way of life & culture you are not familiar with.

      Does that make any sense?

    86. Captain Yossarian says:

      @Hatuey – This site doesn’t stand for the gratuitous condemnation of the English, the Americans or anyone else. Have a look at Scotland at the moment….would you call it a beacon of democracy in Europe, because I wouldn’t. Does any other country in Europe, or the world, jail folk for ‘jigsaw identification?’

    87. Benhope says:

      Ruby and Sarah.

      Of course you can send books to the prison library so please cut out all the crap !!!

    88. JSC says:

      There’s a great line in the Amazon blurb for the Clegg book, especially the “access…to the women” part….

      “With unrivalled access to both camps and the women who made the allegations, and with rigorously fair-minded reporting, journalists David Clegg and Kieran Andrews go behind the headlines to uncover the truth”

    89. Meg merrilees says:

      Was driving home late tonight and heard the Sunday Times exclusive trailed on the radio. Read all about it, how this amazing relationship between AS and she/her collapsed and then a whole lot of trash.

      Does this article arouse hatred? I think they might be sailing a bit close to the proverbial wind and let’s hope Alex does them for character assassination.

    90. Hatuey says:

      Yossarian: “This site doesn’t stand for the gratuitous condemnation of the English, the Americans or anyone else…”

      I agree. And nothing I said was gratuitous.

      Most British Unionists, like you, are apologists when it comes to these things.

      The British Empire was fundamentally rancid and disgusting. None of its relatively trivial redeeming features come close to cancelling out its rancid and disgusting fundamentals.

      And nothing is excused by the fact that there were other bad people in the world who were also doing bad things — crime as we define it today would cease to exist if that were the case.

    91. Alf Baird says:

      Ruby @ 10:56 pm

      “It could be the term racist is a misnomer”

      Not in colonialism, which involves racism, prejudice and worse, and also leads to ‘internalized racism’ where an exploited people view their oppression as deserved. We know the latter condition better as the Scottish Cultural Cringe.

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/08/15/determinants-of-independence-ethnicity/

    92. Breeks says:

      OT

      Just discovered a mini workaround for the new Twitter.

      When you click on a link, and it opens their log-in page, but kicks you back to where you were so you can’t follow links… Instead of clicking / closing the log in menu, ignore it, but right click and copy the web page address at the top, open a new page, and paste the link. The page you want then opens behind another log in page, but stays open when you close the box.

      Maybe this isn’t news and everybody does it already, but I didn’t know.

    93. Captain Yossarian says:

      “You can’t be a racist because you have black friends, yosser, is that the idea? And we will just need to take your word for it”….Sound pretty gratuitous to me.

      Anyway, Scotland currently has one internet blogger in jail, not because the law says he should be in jail but because a Scottish judge says so – two different things; their number-one internet blogger is in retirement because he can see what’s coming.

      I’m not a British Nationalist, but Andrew Neil is. Before all of this started, he told everyone that, due to the SNP stormtroopers, Scotland was turning into a banana republic without the bananas.

      Now, either he is right or he is wrong and I would say he is right.

    94. Dorothy Devine says:

      How can they get away with writing salacious shite ?

      It looks as though juries are now never to be believed or used – just someone’s opinion will do.

    95. Dan says:

      @ Dorothy Devine

      With regard to you asking:

      How can they get away with writing salacious shite ?

      As BrianDtt mentioned up thread, there’s also the aspect of the article jigsaw identifying those with supposedly protected anonymity…

    96. Breeks says:

      It is quite extraordinary the fear and hatred the Establishment has for Alex Salmond, and the extent to which it will sell out it’s integrity, cheat, lie and smear, just to bring him down.

      It troubled me at first, can’t lie, I thought it was hurting us, but the more ALBA is ostracised and kept out of the equation, the stronger ALBA gets, and better still, it’s growing it’s strength outside the sandbox of Vichy Scottish Government and it’s pet UK Media. I like the potent mix of a “rebel” ALBA Party and a Sovereign Scottish Constitution, and a UK General Election which can be treated as a Plebiscite Election.

      The SNP and Media are making ALBA out to be rebels and non-conformist “outsiders”, and I actually think that will come to suit ALBA just fine, and cometh the hour, it will be Holyrood which finds itself out in the cold and impotent.

      I’m not complacent, not at all, but it feels like we have a dog in the race again, and I haven’t felt that since 2014. Better still, this dog will I think bite, and it won’t be so easily muzzled.

    97. Ruby says:

      Alf Baird says:
      29 August, 2021 at 6:45 am
      Ruby @ 10:56 pm

      “It could be the term racist is a misnomer”

      Not in colonialism, which involves racism, prejudice and worse, and also leads to ‘internalized racism’ where an exploited people view their oppression as deserved. We know the latter condition better as the Scottish Cultural Cringe.

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/08/15/determinants-of-independence-ethnicity/

      Reply

      I’m honoured to get a reply from you Professor Baird. I can’t say that I have thoroughly studied your paper. I am not very academic as you have probably figured out.
      I understand about ‘The Scottish Cultural Cringe’ well to a certain extent.

      My simple argument was that ‘racism’ is a very confusing label and that you can be ‘racist’ and have black friends.
      ‘Black friends’ can also suffer from ‘The Scottish Cultural Cringe’

      The word ‘racism’ covers too much.
      Now it even covers religion.
      Next it’ll include transexuals.

      I believe we are being oppressed by confusing language.

    98. Ruby says:

      Dan says:
      29 August, 2021 at 9:47 am
      @ Dorothy Devine

      With regard to you asking:

      “How can they get away with writing salacious shite ?”

      Reply

      It’s a money maker and people absolutely love ‘salacious shite’

    99. J.o.e says:

      We can recognise that some terribly bad things were done on a vast scale by our ancestors and horrendous worldviews were held – along with pretty much everyone else in the world.

      This constant attempt to burden us with the horrors of the past is merely the ‘woke’ movement giving reasons to us for being forced to accept the total dismantling of our society and them totally changing the demographics of our countries without our consent.

      We deserve to give up our countries and idea’s of nationhood you see. Because some of our ancestors might have been tyrants of one sort or another.

      What you won’t find in this sickening anti-european movement is them looking through generations of the corporate and financial classes and asking them to give way in the interests of progress. Im pretty sure you could find the actual direct descendants of tyrants, bankers and slavers, still living off the blood money, but I think you might find a worrying trend in them supporting corporations who want to foist this guilt onto all of us and destroy our communities for it.

      Its another corporate globalist angle and is supported by the same type of characters who support world government, medical tyranny and anti-nationalism.

      Reject it. There is nothing behind it except a will to dominate and subjugate while wearing a progressive mask.

    100. Ruby says:

      The Clegg book could end up being a good read if you want to learn more about the people involved.

      I won’t pay £20 for it so I’m hoping some kind person will ‘share’.

      Looking forward to learning much more about the Alphabetties & people like Michael McElhinney.

      I wonder if Clegg has employed a team of lawyers to ‘legal his work’ or the fact that he is a ‘MSM journalist’ he is exempt from all that legal stuff.

    101. Dan says:

      Alert folk with good memories will recall some btl discussion in 2018 regarding Article 49 and 48 with regard to the mechanism of Scotland retaining EU membership.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/serving-the-nations/comment-page-1/#comment-2408091

      Interestingly, Articles 49 & 48 were being floated way back in April 2014 when the then First Minister Alex Salmond made a speech at the College of Europe in Bruges.
      Archived link to BBC page.

      https://archive.is/o0IR0

      Raises questions as to why so little was done by our current First Minister to protect Scotland’s democratically expressed will when the “material change in circumstances” kicked in.
      Had kinda hoped for something with a bit more clout than wind/bawbags exclaiming “Scotland won’t be taken out of the EU against our will”

    102. Hatuey says:

      The first casualty of colonialism is the coloniser’s right to complain when foreigners arrive on their home-shores. That right is left stone dead and entombed; and the curse of shameful hypocrisy awaits anyone who opens the sarcophagus.

      Scotland and Scottish people played unforgivable and unforgettable parts in the biggest imperialist project that the world has ever seen. Many eagerly took part, some more reluctantly.

      If Scottish people today aren’t willing to accept that, if they aren’t willing to take responsibility for it, then they lose the right to claim they are Scottish.

      That’s the thing about nations and nationhood, isn’t it… they’re more or less immortal. And the guilt is immortal too.

      If you go around the world today waving your flags and talking about your nation’s proud history, don’t be surprised if one or two people remind you of these things. That’s how it works.

    103. sarah says:

      @ Ruby at 9.55: thanks for the reply about sending books to Craig. I was thinking that if I sent a book to the prison library that I actually intended to be “lent” to Craig, how could I ensure that that happened. But as benhope points out so courteously, perhaps I am over-thinking the issue.

    104. Alf Baird says:

      Ruby @ 10:07

      “I believe we are being oppressed by confusing language.”

      Certainly agree with you there.

      On the matter of colonialism and racism, according to Prof Edward Said: “what was done in Ireland was also done in Bengal or, by the French in Algeria”. And, in the context of Ireland “The idea of English racial superiority became ingrained”. Which in turn led to the desire for independence.

      Frantz Fanon and Aime Cesaire expressed interest in the notion that some Europeans considered racism to be mainly colour oriented, pointing to Hitler…

    105. John Main says:

      HaHa Hatuey 28 August, 2021 at 9:36 pm

      “Because none of that would change the fact that the average life expectancy of an Indian in 1905 was about 19 years old.
      Some halfwit earlier accused me of having a flimsy understanding of history and economics. I sincerely wish that was the case.”

      It took me about 1 minute to find that the average life expectancy of an Indian in 1905 was between 22 and 23. Not great of course, but not 19 either. I didn’t waste my time looking at your other stats as you already have a solid track record of writing drivel.

      Are you sure it was only a halfwit that called you out Haha? Seems to me like a quarterwit could run rings around you and even an eighthwit would best you more often than not.

      When did you ever do sincerity anyway? But here’s an opportunity for you to make a start. The average life expectancy of an Indian in 1905 was between 22 and 23. What do you propose to do about that? What do you want me to do about that? What do you want the people of an Independent Scotland to one day do about that?

      And meantime, what do you want the devolved SNP/Green administration currently squatting in Hollyrood to do about the disgracefully low life expectancy of 1905 Indians?

      Hurry up Haha. I am sincerely interested to hear your answers.

    106. J.o.e says:

      Thanks Hatuey, for fitting perfectly into what I just described.

      And doing it with such a display of twisted logic and on-the-spot Hatuey principles. lol

      Does anyone else agree with Hatuey’s 11:00 post?

    107. John Main says:

      HaHa Hatuey 29 August, 2021 at 11:00 am

      “The first casualty of colonialism is the coloniser’s right to complain when foreigners arrive on their home-shores. If Scottish people today aren’t willing to accept that, if they aren’t willing to take responsibility for it, then they lose the right to claim they are Scottish.”

      Sez you, Haha, and nobody else.

      Good night was it? You best get some sleep before posting again.

    108. nevermind says:

      Captain Yossarian says:
      28 August, 2021 at 9:38 am

      With today’s cartoon and yesterday’s article on Craig Murray, it shows that, even in retirement, WoS beats most of the newspapers.

      The problem in Afghanistan now is that no-one knows whether there have been 10,000 hostages left behind or 20,000?

      Firstly, thanks for this excellent cartoon Chris, it will take me some time to decipher its intricate details.

      Its very easy to sound different to the wider MSM, Captain Y., because their editors are not happy without covering other newspapers stories, ad nauseum, hence they all sound the same and are populated by the MI groomed scribblers who would never jeopardise their lifestyle/income for daring to cover a story which Craig, Julian Assange and or WoS would report about.
      Lord Dannant this morning on Radio 4 mused that ‘we can not have a proper relationship with the Taliban if they commit Human rights abuses’.
      Well me ol doddery Lordy, you should relax, retire from being an armchair general, because you said no such thing whilst we armed the head choppers of Saudi Arabia who used them in Yemen and dictatorial Bahrain for the last few decades. You are being used to apologize our own inability to be coherent and diplomatic.

      If we have a real interest in the future of our relationship with Afghanistan we would offer them support, financially and practically. After yesterdays announcement of an amnesty to all who fought and or served the oppressing powers of a now redundant NATO contingent, the nastiness in the MSM/BBC regurgitating 20 year old stories of a Taliban should stop.
      After all it was the CIA and our all knowing Intelligence bods who created it with the help of the good neighborly ISI in madrassas in Pakistan.

      Missing Craig, he would have known so much more on this war on terror fiasco, which increased poverty by 62% and increased the opium supply globally back to 84%, after the Taliban banned it at the turn of the Millennium.

    109. Ruby says:

      sarah says:
      29 August, 2021 at 11:11 am
      @ Ruby at 9.55: thanks for the reply about sending books to Craig. I was thinking that if I sent a book to the prison library that I actually intended to be “lent” to Craig, how could I ensure that that happened. But as benhope points out so courteously, perhaps I am over-thinking the issue.

      Reply

      I think Ben Hope is a total idiot best ignored. (Thats is me holding back on what I really think of Ben Hope)

      Of course we know we can send books to the ‘Saughton Prison Library’ we can send books to wherever we fancy but the question is what happens to these books when they arrive at their destination.

      You are correct in looking for answers. Don’t beat yourself up because of some idiot making rude comments.

      My advice would be lets wait and see if there is any new info.

      I would imagine Craig has plenty to go on with at the moment.
      God help him if ‘Ben Hope’ has decided to write.

    110. Andrew F says:

      Thanks Breeks @7:52am.

      That has been giving me the sh1ts! This worked so I can see twitter threads without signing up.

    111. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Breeks says: at 7:52 am

      OT

      Just discovered a mini workaround for the new Twitter.

      When you click on a link, and it opens their log-in page, but kicks you back to where you were so you can’t follow links… Instead of clicking / closing the log in menu, ignore it, but right click and copy the web page address at the top, open a new page, and paste the link. The page you want then opens behind another log in page, but stays open when you close the box.

      Maybe this isn’t news and everybody does it already, but I didn’t know.
      ——————————–
      Thanks Breeks, I didn’t know it so it’s a big help when you want to go deeper into a topic. 🙂

    112. BobW says:

      OT re twitter preventing thread display, deleting twitter cookies gives access as before until the pop up is triggered again.

    113. Bob W says:

      OT re twitter preventing thread display, deleting twitter cookies gives access as before until the pop up is triggered again.

    114. Bob W says:

      Apologies for double posting, missed the space in my name.

    115. sarah says:

      @ Ruby – 🙂

    116. Breeks says:

      Through a Scottish Prism just finished… quite a good one, but then most of them are.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgvuDKy1tJc

      Keep watching right to the end… 😉

    117. Hatuey says:

      “It took me about 1 minute to find that the average life expectancy of an Indian in 1905 was between 22 and 23.”

      Actually, if you look in more detail you’ll see that for males it was 19 and for females a few years higher. I might have said the average life expectancy “for a male Indian”. Shoot me.

      My source on that is Vinay Lal, btw, who really is a respected authority on Indian history and is Indian himself.

      But this is more whataboutery and knit picking. You should simply be shocked and ashamed at this stuff.

    118. Grouse Beater says:

      Your essential weekend reading:

      ‘A Strategy for Independence’: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-qu8

    119. J.o.e says:

      ‘You should simply be shocked and ashamed at this stuff.’

      Shocked yes. Ashamed?

      Feel free to feel ashamed.

      I have nothing to feel ashamed about except ever having believed the propaganda of the mainstream.

      The type you are spouting now

    120. Hatuey says:

      “I have nothing to feel ashamed about…”

      You should be ashamed that you’re not ashamed, ad infinutum.

      You’re struggling with this but that’s to be expected.

      Heavy is the nationalist crown…

    121. Hatuey says:

      John Main, this is misquoted, misleading, and technically illegal:

      “The first casualty of colonialism is the coloniser’s right to complain when foreigners arrive on their home-shores. If Scottish people today aren’t willing to accept that, if they aren’t willing to take responsibility for it, then they lose the right to claim they are Scottish.”

      You’ve shamelessly taken two different statements and welded them together to suit your tormented ends. The meaning is hugely distorted as a result.

      You’d be seriously reprimanded if you did that in any sort of academic work.

      It’s a new low.

    122. Republicofscotland says:

      So Sturgeon briefed John Swinney that he should take over as FM if she “had” been found to have broken the Ministerial Code (she did) after the Holyrood and Hamilton inquiries.

      There was chicanery afoot, with redactions of documents requested, not producing document and documents produced after they were needed (ie after the inquiries had concluded). There was the multitude of forgetfulness from Sturgeon, such as I don’t know, and not to the best of my knowledge, the stuffing of the Holyrood inquiry with SNP MSP’s, the obfuscation from John Swinney and of course the nefarious roll played in it all by the COPFS and the Lord Advocate.

      Not forgetting Sturgeon’s proposed successor John Swinney surviving his second VONC, aided and abetted by the Greens, who now have two ministerial positions.

      This lot could teach the Biden’s or Putin’s or the Merkel’s or Macron’s a thing or two about political skullduggery.

      https://archive.is/OsCfs

    123. robbo says:

      Look at the state of this muppet. Doesn’t surprise me he’s useless at dancing as he’s useless at everything else!

      https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/celebrity/michael-gove-spotted-raving-in-a-suit-on-aberdeen-nightclub-dance-floor-at-2am/ar-AANRXlc?ocid=msedgntp

    124. Dan says:

      @ robbo

      A proper rave would be more BPMs, #TappsAff, sweat everywhere, and you can’t tell what colour eyes folk have.
      That’s jist a bit of lightweight clubbing.

      Seeing as it’s in Aberdeen, I think Hector Brocklebank would describe Gove’s efforts as a poor rendition of the “Big Fash Little Fash” dance. 😉

    125. John Main says:

      @HaHa Hatuey

      Now just how was it that I was able to predict that you would give my question the body swerve?

      Never mind. Here it is again.

      What do you want the people of Scotland, both as individuals, and as a nation represented by their government, independent or devolved, to do about the appalling and shocking life expectancy of the Indians in 1905?

    126. John Main says:

      Alf Baird

      If the Scottish Cringe is an example of internalised racism, then I find I have to agree with Ruby: “racism” is a word so over-used that it has lost all meaning.

      Just like Facism, Fascist, etc. have.

      You might just be able to make the case that the English are a different race to the Scots, but I have seen plenty of examples of confident, loud, arrogant Scots invoking the Scottish Cringe from their assumed inferiors.

      That looks very much like the class divide in action to me.

      If you are trying to say that pushing people about because you are posh, impatient, self-righteous and entitled is racism, then I say bollocks. Individuals push others about because of power differentials. Nations push other nations about for the same reason. The rationalisations come after.

    127. Republicofscotland says:

      So where is Humza Yousaf’s HCB now as Rangers FC fans walk through Glasgow’s city centre singing anti-Catholic songs, oh that’s right his legacy on HCB is too busy prosecuting Marion Millar, and Police officers from Police Scotland are/were to busy dancing in Glasgow’s George Sq post when Rangers FC won the football league and trashed the city at a whopping great expense to the taxpayer.

      It sounds to me as though the HCB will be selective in nature.

      https://archive.is/Jqhif

    128. Hatuey says:

      “What do you want the people of Scotland, both as individuals, and as a nation represented by their government, independent or devolved, to do about the appalling and shocking life expectancy of the Indians in 1905?”

      Nothing. What gave you the impression I wanted something?

      If you’re a jingoistic nationalist, you could take some responsibility for the role of Scots in these things, or at least acknowledge that role, but you don’t need to. The reality and truth exists either way.

      By the same token, countries with an imperial history are hypocritical if they block access to immigrants today. The hypocrisy doesn’t go away because the hypocrite refuses to acknowledge things.

    129. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      More extracted from the Clegg/Andrews book.

      An exploding bottle of water and the infamous Glenrothes incident, that we all knew about onnyhoo.

      https://archive.is/vlx9D

    130. Dan says:

      David Clegg and Kieran Andrews are really trying a bit too hard using the title: “Break-Up: How Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon Went to War“.

      “War”? Really? With all that is going on at the moment in the Middle East? Get a fucking grip and some perspective in your lives ya pair o’ clickbaiting fuds.

    131. Alf Baird says:

      Hatuey @ 7:13 pm

      “countries with an imperial history”

      You mean England. Scotland and the majority of Scots today themselves reflect a colonial legacy as a people and nation that was and still is used and oppressed and indeed colonised by its larger dominant neighboring power. What do you think independence is and why it is being sought?

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/07/18/determinants-of-independence-colonialism/

    132. David Caledonia says:

      I have never used twitter, for the simple reason that any idiot can sign up to these sites and post any old shit as they are not regulated apart from the idiots that create the fecking things
      Why anyone would want to read anything from twitter without having to sign up for it amazes me, why would anyone want to read some idiots twittering nonesense without being signed up to it, seems being a twit is not just about signing up to twitter and the twitterites utterings, its just being a useless twit in general

    133. Mist001 says:

      There’s an awfy lot of racist shite coming to the fore on this board these days. None of you have the first clue about ‘colonisation’ or what you’re actually saying.

    134. David Caledonia says:

      Not having a clue is not the problem, its the jokers that pretend they do have a clue that get on my tits

    135. David Caledonia says:

      And do my fecking crust in, its not just on here, every joker these days thinks they are experts on just about every fecking topic brought up, boring as feck, most of them

    136. Lochside says:

      Dan@10.48

      Thanks for archiving 2018’s contributions. I make no apology for copying and pasting my own contribution from the days when this site actually contained real Scottish sovereign supporters’ contributions.

      Lochside says:
      14 November, 2018 at 3:34 pm
      The English have ruled the Celtic nations for the past three centuries with the velvet glove of an unwritten constitution in their mythical ‘green and pleasant land’ ruled by equally mythical wise patrician leaders . From time to time the iron fist has emerged from the velvet to attempt to crush us and the plebeian English when deigning to show anything less than abject deference.

      Since Universal suffrage followed by massive wartime sacrifices and catastrophic emigration, in Scotland at least, we have woken up, and since the turn of this century threatened the Greater English lie hidden under layers of pomp, pretence and political oppression masquerading as a democracy.

      Our downright impudence in demonstrating our rejection of their corrupt apparatus of government by voting for Independence supporting parties and nearly ending the union in Indyref1 was enough to unleash the barely disguised, but long harboured hatred and disgust for our very existence. Witness, the 2015 GE using the oldest racist stereotype of the greedy, tight Jock, AS picking the pocket of Cameron. The Pavlovian knee jerk avalanche of anti-Scottish rhetoric and downright abuse has never abated since.

      From then onwards, ‘they’, the English elite and a significantly large part of their population endorse our diminution politically and even the visibility of our food and drink under florid Union flags on every carton and bottle. We are written out of every historical event of ‘English’ history. Thus the Romans ‘conquered Britain’..no they didn’t; The First War wasn’t that ‘bloody’ ( quote Dan Snow). Really?… 148,000 dead Jocks says otherwise; Dunkirk was a ‘victory’ ( tell that to the Highland Division sacrificed to fight on for days after the evacuation by Churchill the mass murderer).

      And now, the final frontier: their racial superiority and bullshit ‘play fair’ philosophy being called out by bloody foreigners!..and worse the ‘Sweaties’ won’t stay in their natural supine place!

      Well hubris is long overdue for these ‘imperial masters’, long sustained by celtic resources both human and material. Let them get on with facing the world on their own for once and see how great they really are. It is time for the SNP/SG to call time on the unequal abusive Union we have had to labour under, restate our democratic right to remain in the EU and Dissolve the UK Union now!’/////////////////////////////////////////////////////

      Well, times have moved on: we are out of Europe. But in other ways we have gone back in reverse with Sturgeon and her imperial ‘sleepers’ now fully WOKEn and in poisonous ascendance over us. However, with real political consciousness being informed and based on solid alternatives to pointless useless ‘/referenda and S30 begging bowl approaches being put forward by Prof. Baird’s erudite book and articles from ‘Doun-Hauden’ ( The socio-political determinants of Scottish Independence) we now have a clear path out of this nightmare of colonial rule by tra*tors and qui*lings hiding in plain sight in the SNP leadership.Let’s seize this blueprint forward out of the political paralysis we are mired in!

    137. Andy Ellis says:

      @Mist001 8.32 pm

      The spurious “Scotland as colony” narrative and the kind of regressive, unreasoning “little Scotlanderism” behind the nativists and ethno nationalists pushing the franchise restriction plans and “we’re being swamped by furriners” bullshit has given voice to a lot of the sub Siol nan Gaidheal bullshit.

      It brings to mind the validation of a lot of similar prejudice and bigotry we saw being validated by the rise of UKIP and the constant fluffing it enjoyed for years in the run up to brexit.

      The task the mainstream Yes movement has is to face down these moon howlers. Many of them have spent weeks attacking civic nationalism and saying it makes achieving independence impossible. Of course the exact opposite is the case: nativism is a regressive political cul-de-sac.

      It will never appeal to “soft No” voters, will appal some existing Yes voters and cause huge damage to the chances of constructing a coalition (however unwilling) to help deliver either #indyref2 or plebiscitary elections.

    138. Jimuckmac says:

      Can someone explain to me why the ‘Contempt of Court Act’ still applies even though all charges have been dropped in relation to the incident involving Sturgeon’s sister and the other party?

    139. Ruby says:

      Could be ‘The Break Up’ could end up being a fun read still ain’t going to pay £20 but will read if some kind person ‘shares’

      Any info on what formats will be on sale?

      I love the bit about the Gov driver reporting Alex Salmond to the police due to exploding sparkling water bottle.

      Alex Salmond wasn’t half surrounded by a load of very strange people.

      Could be the driver was an ‘arch yoon’ and it was torture for him to drive Alex Salmond about.

      I wonder if we’ll hear more about the Sue Ruddick story. What/Who made her do it?
      Susie sounds like another weirdo.

    140. Ruby says:

      Mist001 says:
      29 August, 2021 at 8:32 pm
      There’s an awfy lot of racist shite coming to the fore on this board these days. None of you have the first clue about ‘colonisation’ or what you’re actually saying.

      Reply

      Are you an expert of ‘colonisation’ Misto?

      Can you define what you mean by ‘racist shite’?

      As I explained earlier I don’t know what the word actually means.

      Your expert help would be appreciated.

    141. To be fair, the 2021 retreat from Kabul went less badly than the 1842 retreat from Kabul.

    142. Alf Baird says:

      Andy Ellis @ 9:07 pm

      “little Scotlanderism”

      Still searching for your national identity, Andy? Let us know when you find it. A clue may be parental descent according to the ECHR, and James Kelman.

    143. Andy Ellis says:

      @Alf Baird 10.06 pm

      Still pedalling the same snake oil I see Alf? Never had any problem with my national identity, or ensuring it wasn’t based on regressive ethno centrism and discredited blood and soil tropes.

      Shame the same can’t be said for everyone in the movement, hmmm?

    144. Alf Baird says:

      Andy Ellis @ 10:10 pm

      “Never had any problem with my national identity”

      What is it then? Its not a difficult question. Tak yer time…..

    145. robbo says:

      Republicofscotland says:
      29 August, 2021 at 6:21 pm
      So where is Humza Yousaf’s HCB now as Rangers FC fans walk through Glasgow’s city centre singing anti-Catholic songs, oh that’s right his legacy on HCB is too busy prosecuting Marion Millar, and Police officers from Police Scotland are/were to busy dancing in Glasgow’s George Sq post when Rangers FC won the football league and trashed the city at a whopping great expense to the taxpayer.

      It sounds to me as though the HCB will be selective in nature.

      https://archive.is/Jqhif

      ——————–

      ROS

      Cos they’re “Bangers”

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E99N_NTWUAY_3pv?format=jpg&name=small

    146. Mist001 says:

      @ Ruby

      Nope, but I can spot racism a fucking mile off. These people are talking about the ‘colonisation’ of Scotland and they’re specifically meaning English people going to live and who are living in Scotland, right?

      So, what’s the ratio of English people to Scottish people in Scotland? Now, don’t ask me because I have no idea BUT…

      There are many different races, creeds and colour who have made Scotland their home so if these people talking about ‘colonisation’ of Scotland don’t mean the English, then who exactly are they talking about? The Pakistani guys who run the shops? The Chinese people who run the takeaways? The African students studying tropical vet medicine at The Bush?

      Or is everybody who isn’t Scottish ‘blood and soil’ a part of the colonisation of Scotland?

      These people talking about the ‘colonisation’ of Scotland are fucking loons, paranoid racists, one and all and if I see racism, I’m going to call it out.

      Maybe you should do that too.

    147. robbo says:

      Re the gers racist chants and the police facilitators -mostly huns anyhow.

      The other thing about them supporters is that they’re thick as fuck.

      In a further failure of educational achievement, the anti-Irish bigots shown in the video would do well to read a book about An Gorta Mor. Within its pages they may find that the Great Hunger did not discriminate along religious or political lines. With a bit of further reading, they may even discover that during the 19th century most of Scotland’s Irish immigrants came from Ulster and, between 1876 and 1883, 83% of Irish immigrants came from the North of Ireland – 25% of whom were Protestant Unionists. No prizes for guessing which club many of those people, alongside the immigrant (Govan) shipyard workers, mainly supported in later years. And by extension many of their descendants.

    148. Alf Baird says:

      Mist001 @ 10:45 pm

      “I can spot racism a fucking mile off”

      So I expect you will know that colonialism is racism:

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/07/18/determinants-of-independence-colonialism/

    149. Mist001 says:

      Is Scotland still a part of the United Kingdom, or have I missed something along the way?

    150. Hatuey says:

      Everything’s complicated.

      When I hear people in the Indy movement talking about what great inventors the Scots were, what great warriors, what great minds the country produced, steam engines, The Wealth of Nations, Walter Scott, etc., I can’t help but think they are idolising the very sort of Scots who got the country into this Unionist mess.

      We are a schizophrenic country. Naomi Klein in one of her books, I forget which one, talked about how abuse can cause such problems in people. Maybe it’s the same for countries.

      It does no good to pretend Scotland was straightforwardly a coloniser or that it was colonised. It was obviously both. Some people supported the Union, some opposed it.

      These sort of things are only antagonisms if you are dishonest about them and want to indulge in simple ideas — Scotland the victim, Scotland the brave, Scotland the country of great inventors, Scotland the exceptional, etc.

      You don’t need any of those lies to win independence. The truth is much more interesting and it’s easier to explain; the interests of the people of Scotland will be better served if they run their own affairs.

    151. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Pontifex Minimus,

      I was reading your website. With respect it is CRAIG Murray that has been sent to prison.

      You have referred to CHRIS Murray throughout your Blog. It’s kind of distracting chief.
      Maybe worth running your spellcheck over things so you get Ambassador’ Murray’s name spelt correctly.

      Your Blog looks interesting apart from that faux pas.

      Cheers,

      Al.

    152. Alf Baird says:

      Mist001 @ 10:54 pm

      “Is Scotland still a part of the United Kingdom, or have I missed something along the way?”

      Yes you have missed something – its called ‘Internal Colonialism’ which as Professor Michael Hechter explains:

      “As a consequence of this hierarchical arrangement: ‘Internal structural differences between the Celtic periphery and England are reminiscent… of less developed societies, which arose as a function of their colonial mode of development’. Development occurred in a largely dependent mode… and special diffusion of industrialisation in the Celtic lands was considerably restricted… and excessively specialized. The persistence of systemic disadvantages…from policies discriminating against the Celtic periphery.. has been described as institutionalized racism’. And in this the inevitable exploitative nature of colonialism becomes evident in that: ‘The situation of the Celtic fringe in the British Isles is analogous in several respects to that of less developed countries’. And let us not forget what lies at the root of colonialism, namely: ‘When long-term differences in aggregate rates of development are the result of ethnic stereotypes, it is appropriate to speak of institutional racism’.

    153. Alf Baird says:

      Hatuey @ 10:58 pm

      “The truth is much more interesting and it’s easier to explain”

      That’s easy for you to say:

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/08/15/determinants-of-independence-ethnicity/

    154. Alf Baird says:

      Andy Ellis @ 10:10 pm

      Did you discover your national identity, then?

    155. Mist001 says:

      @ Alf Baird

      You describe yourself as a professor. That’s meaningless to me, all it is a title that you use to try and give yourself a modicum of credibility.

      It doesn’t work in your case because MY reading and probably anyone elses reading from your post, is that you’re saying that because one side is racist, then that makes it acceptable for the other side to be racist too.

      That makes you at the very least, a racist symphathizer which is a polite way of saying that you’re a racist.

      Racism is NOT acceptable nor excusable in any form.

      Scotland is still a part of the UK and yet, many people here advocate not allowing UK citizens in Scotland to have a vote, they want to chase the English out of Scotland and make no bones about it, it is the English they’re talking about and you’re defending this?

      Have a word with yourself, Professor.

    156. robert graham says:

      After midnight so sinders has lost her nice composure

      Roll up Roll up Roll up

      Step this way for your 6 monthly top up of the blood clot inducing magic serum that offers absolutely NO protection and won’t stop transmission of the Biological Weapon that some clever pathological lunatics have developed as a means of reducing the population of the planet.

      Yes its official the CDC in the USA are following Israel as usual because after all they run the USA they now recommend a 6 MONTHLY gap between booster shots . Maybe because they haven’t fulfilled their quota and haven’t damaged enough yet

    157. Hatuey says:

      Alf, I’m sorry, I don’t feel incentivised to click your link. Links are for supporting arguments, not making them.

    158. Willie says:

      To change the tack a little I was in my local Morrison supermarket and have never seen so many empty shelf’s. Fruit and veg, meats, beers, some spirits, and very particularly wine, soft drinks, bottled water, batteries.

      Shortages of food are now very apparent, the economic impacts must be huge, and taken together with the quite separate rout from Afghanistan a humbled Britain couldn’t be more obvious. Empty shops, industry shortages, and a military routed like Suez or the Fall of Singapore, the flush down the toilet couldn’t be clearer.

      And BoJo, our belligerent British Buffoon in respect of the routed military that the “ sacrifice and hardship was not in vain “. Stirring stuff indeed for the families of the hundreds of servicemen who lost their lives and the many more left horrendously disfigured, our leader certainly knows how to trot out the Brit tropes like you change your underpants. Crikey one of his ministers less than twelve months ago was crowing with Britannic pride as to how the Royal Navy was projection of Britannic Lethal Force around the world.

      Doesn’t quite square with a country that can’t supply its supermarkets or a country with it’s military absolutely routed on the World stage.

      Ah well, what can one say. Even the big yellow bus that was to be bringing hundreds of millions of pounds of post Brexit NHS money every week, has sunk without ever having arrived. But that’s another story as the queues to see a doctor build

      So ,good evening to all. Maybe, we in Scotland shall rout the British from our land too.

    159. Grouse Beater says:

      Warning, moron on the loose: Mist001 @12.17am.

    160. Ruby says:

      Mist001 says:
      29 August, 2021 at 10:45 pm
      @ Ruby

      Nope, but I can spot racism a fucking mile off

      if I see racism, I’m going to call it out.

      Maybe you should do that too.

      Reply

      Weird that you can’t explain what you mean by racism!

      It’s going to be pretty difficult for me to call it out when I don’t know what racism is.

      Could it be as simply as just not liking someone. For example if I were to criticise Humza Yousaf would he immediately jump to the conclusion that I was a racist. Same applies to some arrogant English tosser would any criticism be deemed ‘racist’?

      What about having to pay for tomato sauce in Edinburgh while brown sauce is free. Anti-Glasgow racism?

      https://archive.is/D5sZK

    161. Ruby says:

      Any criticism of Islam or any Muslim seems also to be ‘racist’.

      That is a biggy for me because I have lots of criticism of the Islamic religion.

      Criticising other religions doesn’t seem to be ‘racist’.

      All very weird!

    162. Ruby says:

      Mist001 says:
      29 August, 2021 at 10:45 pm
      @ Ruby

      Nope, but I can spot racism a fucking mile off.

      Reply

      What’s the situation in Marseilles re racism?

      Still a lot of anti German anti Algerian racism?

      Not too certain what caused the anti Algerian racism but it’s not hard to figure out why after the occupation people were anti-German.

      There is always a reason why people become ‘racist’

      The problem is politicians don’t want to listen to people they prefer to call them names and introduce laws to control them. It started with the PC brigade and now we have the Hate Crime Bill.

    163. Ruby says:

      I’ve been reading some book reviews and came across an author called Nicola Yoon. 🙂

      That made me smile.

      That’s me contribution for this morning over.

      See you later! Bye

    164. Andy Ellis says:

      @Alf Baird 10.10 pm & 11.40 pm

      I’m Scottish Alf, never regarded myself as anything else wherever I lived and worked. Even if I’d never come back to Scotland I’d always have supported independence and expected to have a Scottish passport when my country summoned up the courage to become independent.

      My national identity and my “legal” citizenship however are two different things. Until the majority of Scots have the political and moral courage to vote for independence, as far as the rest of the world is concerned we are British.

      Self identifying as Scottish and correcting people if they call us British or English rather than Scottish may make us feel better, but it doesn’t really signify anything to them other than pretensions that aren’t backed up by action. Granted we may have a more realistic shot at actually becoming independent than Bavarians, Bretons or Californians, but the outside world and the international community only cares when we have the bottle to take not ask.

    165. Alf Baird says:

      Mist001 @ 12:17 am

      “Racism is NOT acceptable nor excusable in any form”

      You are right, and as colonialism is racism and a ‘scourge’ on a people ‘it should be ended’, according to the UN.

      As Albert Memmi said, the colonizer “is a paternalist… who wants to stretch racism and inequality further.”

    166. Iceland was voted the second most Democratic country in the world,

      ` The general requirement for granting Icelandic citizenship is that the applicant has been domiciled in Iceland for seven years.`

      voting rights in the second most Democratic country in the world,

      `Foreign nationals are not allowed to vote in presidential elections, parliamentary elections, or national referendums`

      jeezo where`s their civic nationalism the bludeboiler moon howlers flecked with spittle ethno nationalists etc etc yawn.

    167. Alf Baird says:

      Andy Ellis @ 8:03 am

      “I’d always have supported independence”

      It surely helps, then, for people such as you who comment extensively on the subject to actually better understand what independence is and why it is necessary:
      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/08/29/determinants-of-independence-synopsis-and-strategies/

    168. thomas says:

      @ Mist001 12.17am

      Its interesting you talk about “racism” , then go on to link that word with people in scotland not wanting other uk citizens to have a say in scotland ending the uk.

      You make no mention though of the fact that is exactly what the defacto “english ” uk government did during the brexit referendum in 2016.

      While the uk was still part of the eu , the uk government DENIED EU citizens living in the uk the vote.

      So have a word with yourself .

      Whats good for the goose and all that.

    169. J.o.e says:

      For me the issue of our current argument over nationality and voting rights comes down to this:

      The same governments who are destroying womens rights are:

      1 – not only encouraging but are actually facilitating mass migration into our countries
      2 – attempting to give these same migrants instant ability to influence political outcomes (already have in Scotland).

      These are not normal times and this is not a normal situation.

      It is not racism to criticise it. It is not ‘nativist’ to recognise there is a problem.

      Those above who are throwing names at people while ignoring those points above are either hard of thinking or have an axe to grind.

    170. Geoff Anderson says:

      Thomas – mist001 has an obvious agenda and it’s not Scottish Independence.

    171. Andy Ellis says:

      @Scott Finlayson 8.21 am

      As has been pointed out many times to the nativist die hards infesting the BTL comments here in recent months, deciding who qualifies for citizenship in a state which is ALREADY independent, is NOT there same thing as deciding the franchise for independence referendums. No matter how often you bring this spurious comparison up, it becomes no more convincing or relevant. It’s honestly like watching Dougal trying to understand the difference between “small” and “far away”!

      Go and do your research. Check on all the independence referendums since 1945. Virtually all of them used residence as the criteria for having a vote. A few (of a couple of dozen examples from memory) had 24 month residence qualifications. None had the kind of citizenship hurdles (which would only be realisable after independence not before) you and your hard of thinking ethnic nationalist mates are frothing yourselves into a lather about.

      Once independence is achieved citizenship criteria are relatively straightforward. If we can’t persuade a majority of residents that independence is in their interests then it hardly bodes well for the future of an independent Scotland which is dependent on the participation of lots of people who weren’t born here or haven’t lived here long enough to suit a minority of nativist extremists who seek to disenfranchise them. It’s probably not the kind of Scotland many of us would vote for.

    172. Ruby says:

      I’m back with one further contribution.

      https://archive.is/wUPoT

      ‘Nicola Sturgeon ‘sacked Chief Constable Stephen House’ despite backing him in public’

      It seems ‘THE BREAK UP’ is going to be serialised in The Times.

    173. Andy Ellis says:

      @Alf Baird 8.25 am

      The fact that I may not agree with you, doesn’t mean I don’t understand Alf, it just means we don’t agree. Doubtless there are many areas of policy we would share similar views on. I understand your desire to push your “Scotland and colony” narrative, I simply don’t accept it is correct or helpful. However hard it is for you to accept that is the shared view of the overwhelming majority.

      Pointing us to links of your own output only takes us so far. Where is the support for your views in the movement (as opposed to amongst a small claque in here)? Even Rev Stu has rejected the nativist prospectus – indeed it was his initial Twitter thread debunking the nativist narrative that started this debate off. Those of us who agree with him are still waiting for the “we wuz robbed” types to answer the points he raised weeks ago.

      Unsurprisingly you’re still coming up empty.

    174. Breeks says:

      I have some sympathy for those who are uncomfortable with what they perceive as a non-inclusive nationalism / parochialism which restricts the voting franchise and narrows the definition of Scots. Back in 2014, I was 100% behind the concept that everyone and anyone should have a vote.

      However, I’m a little older, hopefully a little wiser, hopefully we all are, and I have to confess, calls to adopt the very same franchise again when we know that franchise weakened the YES vote decisively, this time around sound to me a lot like Alistair Jack saying we need 60%, or Sturgeon saying we need Section 30 consent. We DON’T.

      These predicates are more than wrong, they are untrue. A majority is 50% + 1, not 60%. A Section 30 comes from the Scotland Act, the small “c” constitution of a subservient devolved assembly, and that does not in any way bind the will of Scotland’s constitutionally sovereign people. Who is making this stuff up?

      Do we need 60%? No, we don’t.
      Do we need Section 30 Agreements? No, we don’t.
      Do we need an open door voters franchise?….

      No. We don’t. And it is NOT petty racism or “blood and soil” nationalism to be saying that. Please calm down at the back there.

      That bit wisdom I mentioned that I gathered? It’s recognising the distinction which exists between domestic politics and constitution, in other words, domestic UK (or Scottish) affairs which other Nations can’t properly interfere with, and International affairs, where the actions of one nation have consequences for other Nations to adapt to.

      These benchmarks, domestic and international are different.

      Domestically, “in your own house” matters, then yes, by all means give everybody affected a vote. Let the dog and the budgie vote if they want and you’re mad enough to indulge them. It’s only those within your own house who are affected by the result. It’s domestic, and the rest of the world can, and by law must, leave you to get on with it.

      But Internationally, it is a whole different kettle of fish. The edicts and actions delivered by one Nation, (and it doesn’t even have to democratic), have profound consequences for other nations. Suddenly the vote is not a declaration of the democratic will of the people. It is suddenly bigger than that. It is the legal declaration of a Sovereign Nation. You have to think about that, and understand the profound difference which exists.

      The United Nations has existing and established protocols for when and when not to recognise a Nation’s legitimacy, and respect a nation’s voting franchise which will not vacillate with all inclusive pleasantries which have no basis in law. We don’t have to vex ourselves reinventing the wheel here. The people who will get a vote will be Scottish citizens by their legal definition, and nothing else.

      For simplicity, look at it this way… The family of International Nations has it’s own “voters franchise” where only sovereign Nations have a vote in their assembly. For Scotland to be recognised as an Independent Nation, then that’s the voters franchise we should be focussed upon. Simple. Uncomplicated. Unambiguous. Binary in Law.

      Scottish Independence is all about Scotland’s return to the International family of Nations. It is a definitive change of legal status, hopefully to be followed by an objective readjustment of lawful recognitions by other Nations. Scotland will recognised. England will be recognised. The United Kingdom will no longer exist and cease to be recognised.

      The part which democracy plays in this is technically superfluous. If you still don’t see that, then explain to me how Scottish democracy might end the Union, but then what happens if English democracy might vote to keep it? Democracy versus democracy just gives you stalemate. Sovereignty is binary, it breaks that stalemate and determines issues by making definitive judgements which are recognised by protocol.

    175. Ottomanboi says:

      Racist like Fascist is a catch all term for ideas you choose not to like and can’t provide a rational argument against. May as well shout at a stone wall or Stonewall.
      Muslim is not an ethnicity anymore than Catholic, e.g in Northern Ireland, is. However, it suits the new «leftists» and «liberals» to regard such terms as a type of ethnicity often having little to do with actual religious observance.
      The concept of race, a 19th century notion, has no rational foundation and is an example of «bogus science». We all ought to be aware of the consequences of such notions especially when officialdom politicizes them.

    176. Dan says:

      Andy Ellis says: at 9:07 pm

      The task the mainstream Yes movement has is to face down these moon howlers. Many of them have spent weeks attacking civic nationalism and saying it makes achieving independence impossible. Of course the exact opposite is the case: nativism is a regressive political cul-de-sac.

      It will never appeal to “soft No” voters, will appal some existing Yes voters and cause huge damage to the chances of constructing a coalition (however unwilling) to help deliver either #indyref2 or plebiscitary elections.

      That’s just your opinion, and a flawed one at that because you continue to refer to anyone that doesn’t align with your exacting views and wonts in a derogatory manner, rather than actually interact in discussions to reach a consensus.

      Properly discussing and addressing issues relating to migration in a Scottish context can be tricky. This is because, as you well know, Immigration is a power reserved to Westminster, and the way said power has been managed over the entire course of this 300 year Union has allowed The Kingdom of England’s population to grow at a disproportionately faster rate than the Kingdom of Scotland.
      The KOE’s population was approximately five times that of The KOS in 1700, but that figure has now increased to approximately ten times larger, with all the economic advantage that gave The KOE over that time-frame.
      That aspect in itself is an actual breach of the Treaty of Union because no constituent part of the UK should have an economic advantage over another.
      Westminster has not implemented any policy to redress this imbalance, and the stark impact of emigration from Scotland is masked further in our population numbers by the ongoing internal UK migration to Scotland which continues to clear young Scots out of areas because those young folk just can’t compete in the housing market against those incomers.
      With that big all-knowing napper of yours, you never did come up with a strategy on how to repair the local areas I described that are failing due to the demographic changes in those areas. Ach, who need firefighters anyway…

      Anyway, the legacy of these badly managed migration policies has in various ways tainted folk’s comprehension and views on the whole subject.
      Aye, Scotland currently requires a degree of immigration at this point in time. But any sensible self-governing country would have control of ALL powers so would be in a far better position to determine and control the reasons why young Scots folk are forced to leave in the first place, and who and how many migrants should be allowed to come to reside here.
      If you actually bother to have proper conversations with folk (both YES and No voters) and discuss the above with them rather than calling them your usual derogatory terms, many actually would be onboard with such a proposals.

      The actual matter of eligibility criteria on who gets to vote in the various different types of democratic events in Scotland, is not the same as and needs separated from immigration policy.

    177. Robert Hughes says:

      Andy

      ” Infesting ” , really ?

      That kind of inflammatory language does nothing to move the debate on .

      The two opposing arguments have their own coherence : why not discuss them in an adult manner ?

      To repeat …..a franchise for any – hypothetical – IndyRef similar to 2014 would be optimum , if it didn’t contain the seeds of a similar outcome . It does

      One of your recurring arguments is that if enough native Scots can’t be persuaded to vote for Independence the games a bogey : what then if , like 2014 , the majority of such do vote YES but are again outvoted by a minority of native Scots + non-natives , are we to conclude Independence is a hopeless cause and simply give up ?

      Must the desire of actual Scots for Independence forever be secondary to the contrary desire of others ?

    178. Hatuey says:

      Ottoman: “The concept of race, a 19th century notion, has no rational foundation and is an example of «bogus science».”

      When I pointed that out I was called a globalist shill…

      Breeks: “calls to adopt the very same franchise again when we know that franchise weakened the YES vote decisively”

      We don’t know that. It’s pure conjecture. When I point this out and ask for evidence the conversation typically ends abruptly.

      If changing the franchise or playing the nationalist card was likely to help, I’d go along with it, or at least wheeesht for indy, but there’s no evidence.

      By no evidence, I mean no account taken or given of the negative consequences. All we have is Alf’s back of a fag packet calculations which hinge on a million assumptions.

      Anyway, the truth is these aren’t mutually exclusive positions. Not at all. The clever approach is to deploy both arguments and make fine tuned changes to the franchise that are well thought out and guaranteed to help.

    179. Republicofscotland says:

      “It surely helps, then, for people such as you who comment extensively on the subject to actually better understand what independence is and why it is necessary:”

      Alf @8.25am.

      Alf, you’re banging your head off a brick wall there.

    180. shug says:

      Virtually nothing on the BBC about mad unionist rangers fans marching through glasgow shouting for blood

      Funny that. Do the BBC support them???

      All those lovely union jacks and nazi salutes must be just their cup of tea

    181. Andy Ellis says:

      @Robert Hughes 9.48 am

      Sheesh: Don’t get your panties in twist Robert. It’s WoS remember, if people are honestly unable to cope with the use of infested as a rhetorical device we might as well all clutch out pearls and retire outraged back to the suburbs. This of all places seems an odd forum to try and tone police contributions on there basis of the use of word “infest” for people who are advancing or at least acquiescing in views many people find distasteful. It may have escaped your notice in the exchanges in recent weeks but some of the usual suspects in here haven’t exactly held back in their critique of my opinions either. Worse things happen at sea.

      Of course it’s frustrating if “we” consider we are denied independence because we can’t persuade a majority of those who live here to vote for it particularly if the result is agonisingly close and people are convinced that “we wuz robbed”. Whether that’s the case is of course arguable as others have pointed out. We don’t know what the “counter factual” result would have been do we? The franchise had to be agreed as part of the indyref negotiations: if that had been different how can we predict what the result would have been?

      The facts aren’t going away. None of the nativists have answered Rev Stu’s original critique of their proposal. None of them have explained how changing the franchise makes our progress to independence easier rather than harder given the evidence that we would be way out of step with virtually all other referendums since WW2.

      What we get instead is the shifting of goalposts to the “it should be decided using (future) citizenship criteria” and the minority “Scotland as colony” narrative which the UN doesn’t accept, the international community will laugh at, and the majority of Scots won’t recognise or actually oppose. If we can’t construct a pro indy majority from the > 80% of native born Scots and the pro indy section of New Scots we might as well give up now. Perhaps our children’s generation will have more bottle?

    182. Robert Hughes says:

      See , there you go again – ” panties in a twist ” .

      I’m no shrinking violet in language use Andy , neither do I suffer from contorted underwear : it’s just that ” infested ” is the kind of term used by out and out racists to portray the object of their hate as an uncontrollable plague , best avoided I would say .

    183. Andy Ellis says:

      @Dan 9.40 am

      You’re just going round in circles. No progress is made. I’m not here to solve your hobby horse issue of rural firefighters. I’m sure it’s a crap situation, but as pointed out before, it’s hardly unique to Scotland. Rural depopulation, lack of availability of affordable housing, poor infrastructure and lack of jobs and opportunities affect areas all over the world. If we want to deal with them differently we need independence, that much we can all presumably agree on.

      Of course there are nuances. Perhaps BTL here isn’t the place for that any more than Twitter. We don’t all have to be buddies or be aligned on all the issues. I’m allowed to think that nativism sucks, to call out what I see as its negative background and potential effects and – if I feel like it – point and laugh at those I disagree with. If you and others don’t like it..? Tough. I’m not here to make friends. Some people will agree with me and others won’t: big deal.

      If the past few months have shown me anything it is that you just can’t kill a good idea, and that just because folk on here you thought were decent sorts, they can surprise you by turning out to be anti vaxxers, or supporters of nativism, and this people I’m afraid I’d regard as pretty much beyond the pale ideologically. We’re interacting for the most part electronically. The folk we’re arguing and discussing with are generally folk we won’t meet, or know personally. I’m not interested in trying to convert people who are determined anti vaxxers or nativists: it’s a waste of time and effort. I AM happy to point out what I see as the flaws in their cases, just as they are to do to my arguments.

      It’s up to those reading and positing in response what they take out of the exchanges. Some obviously agree with me, some don’t. Some obviously think I’m too abrasive, some agree with me calling out what they see as a minority and pretty suspect worldview. Such is life. There is no one size fits all approach to convincing swing voters.

    184. Grouse Beater says:

      On here and WhatsApp, has anybody asked the garrulous waffler called Andy Ellis if he is speaking on behalf of ALBA or Alex Salmond?

      Someone should because his passive-aggressive meanderings would embarrass any party developing its policies.

      He has the affrontery to imply those who come to the conclusion Scotland is a colonised country are racist. This is a tactic to shut down honest enquiry, insult the speaker, and smear those who know better.

      You can be a civic nationalist *and* understand why Scotland is a colonial territory of England. Th two beliefs are *not* mutually exclusive. You can argue a colonised country loads the dice of the voting franchise because the history of other nations tells us it always does. Scots can do those things without hating English people yet simultaneously warn against the duplicity and mendacity of English politicians and our House Jocks. Only a fool tries to convince all the evidence before him is of no substance.

      Barbados is about to become a republic. “We wish to put behind us colonialism, ruled by a Monarch and a nation miles away”, says prime minister Mia Mottley. “We want an end to degredation and humilation.”

      I presume Ellis will now do all he can to convince readers the respected prime minister of that country, and the majority of the electorate, a nation that had invading Brits impose slave labour to harvest sugar cane, are somehow racist.”

      Frankly, Andy Ellis should find a new outlet of expression because intellectual acumen is not his forte.

      Onward!

    185. crazycat says:

      @ everyone talking about 60%

      https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/scottish-independence-uk-government-accused-of-making-up-constitutional-rules-with-60-demand-1171727

      A second referendum on Scottish independence could take place if 60 per cent of people support one taking place, the Scottish Secretary has said.

      Alister Jack said support for having a referendum – rather than independence itself – would have to be at this level in opinion polls for a “reasonably long period”.

      (my bold)

      That distinction is important, in my opinion, even though I don’t accept his view.

    186. crazycat says:

      Archived version of the link I posted above:

      https://archive.fo/wip/5jB8d

    187. James Che. says:

      Grouse beater,

      It needed said.
      I do not understand his position of arrogance,
      it certainly is an attitude that sends potential friends scurrying in the opposite direction.
      As does hatuey’s lock citizens up, like ww2 Germany.

      The pair of them are trying to run Scotland.

    188. Andy Ellis says:

      @Grouse Beater 11.02 am

      I’m sorry to see your (strangely all capitalised) contribution Gareth, as we’d previously been in good terms and you were happy enough to retweet my views and even parts of my comments on your blog posts. I was one of those who very publicly supported you when the SNP treated you so disgracefully and resigned my party membership as a result. I did it because it was the right thing to do as a matter of principle, not because we were friends or anything other than online acquaintances. I was sad to hear of your illness particularly as it seemed with the formation of Alba there was a common cause we’d both be involved in.

      I agreed with some of your opinions and not others; that’s just life. After taking offence at my views you went off on one very publicly with some crazy conspiracy theory accusing me of sending DMs to Stu Campbell involving you. When I asked you to retract these totally baseless allegations you simply ignored it and refused to retract the fanciful story. Whether you had me confused with someone else’s were just trying to score cheap debating points is hardly the issue now. Your actions and failure to retract and apologise were crass and did you little credit, which goes in equal measure for your latest post.

    189. J.o.e says:

      ‘The concept of race, a 19th century notion, has no rational foundation and is an example of «bogus science»’

      Without going into the actual science (which is there):

      There are 2 teams of 6 men prepared to have a tug of war. Both teams have been training for 12 months for the match up.

      We are forced at gun point to bet on team A or team B with 1000 quid.

      The only information we have is that team A is Nigerian and team B is Innuit.

      Where are you putting your 1000 quid?

      These are conversations for 12 year olds who have been cursed with hyper liberal parents.

    190. James Che. says:

      On the Scottish, gov site,
      It rattles on around the subject that the Scots are independent, and have the right to choose whom governs them.

      Then goes on to state.
      The Scottish government will decide when their will be a referendum.

      can see the decrepency?

      It is the Scottish people that make that decision,
      As it is not the Scottish Parliament that is sovereign.
      And WE chose a new government if we want to. Even replacing them.

      THE SCOTTISH DEVOLVED GOVERNMENT IS NOT SOVEREIGN.

      WE CHOSE.

    191. James Che. says:

      I wish the all of us were a bit more organised.

    192. James Che. says:

      It is agreed by the Scottish devolved government and English government in the Scotland act under the claim of right.

      That the Scottish people can choose a new government.

      ANYTIME.

      ANYWHERE

      ANYHOW.

      TO CHOOSE A NEW GOVERNMENT, WE DO NOT ASK THE OLD GOVERNMENT PERMISSION FOR A REFERENDUM.

      WE DO NOT ASK HOLYRUDE, OR BJ.

      WE THE PEOPLE WHOM HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT TO CHOOSE, SHOULD BE MORE ORGANISED.

      AND IF ALBA HAD ANYONE ON OUR SIDE THEY WOULD HELP US ORGANISE IT.
      SO WOULD AOUB.

    193. Andy Ellis says:

      @Grouse Beater 11.02 am (Part 2 due to suasage fingers!)

      I’m just an ordinary Alba member. Why would anyone think my views were those of Alba, still less those of Alex himself. I’ve certainly never claimed them as such, but it is interesting that nobody in any leadership position in the party that I’ve seen or heard has come out in support of the “Scotland as colony” narrative being advanced by Alf Baird and others, or of plans to restrict the franchise. Why might that be do you think Gareth? I’m sure Alf and others would be shouting it from the rooftops if Alex had come out in support personally, or if it was the official party line. Who knows, perhaps after conference it will be.

      As to your musings about Barbados, the problem with the position that you and other nativists have is that not only does the UN not support the view that Scotland is a colonial situation, but that most people would feel decidedly uneasy at equating the experience of “real” colonies with the experience of Scotland over the past 300 years. You’re perfectly entitled to believe they are the same, but it’s not an equivalence many people find convincing or even palatable.

      In truth, I don’t think you can be a civic nationalist and assert that since you believe Scotland is a colony, it entitles the independence movement to disenfranchise swathes of the potential voting base contrary to custom and practice in virtually all other independence referendum.

      That doesn’t make me foolish Gareth, or a House Jock or mean that I lack intellectual acumen. It simply means I find your arguments unconvincing as do the majority of the rest of the movement and Scots people more generally.

    194. Willie says:

      I’m sorry but when folks come to swamp your country, support the superiority of a country that exercises control over your country with no democratic mandate, attempts to destroy your culture and language, how on earth can it be that complaint about this is considered to be racist.

      C’mon NDLS, what are your posts all about. Methinks you support English / British ethnocultural and political engineering.

    195. J.o.e says:

      1 short but important point when it comes to racism:

      Currently the only people you can abuse on racial grounds, attack on racial grounds, criticise on racial grounds, select against in employment, blame for everything and generally detest are people of European descent.

      This is observable now everywhere.

      The ‘racism’ of a certain people such as Scots wishing to retain their democratic franchise in the face of planned and targeted mass immigration and the easing of voter requirements is absolutely nothing in comparison.

      Wakey wakey. Mr and Mrs Scott – wondering if you are being racist at this moment in time is like wondering if the smell from your arm pits might put someone off from sexually abusing you.

    196. Lyn Hay says:

      @Ellis. Your basic problem is that you offer mince as though it’s meat. And it seems to me to be intentional – just like Sturgeon the Betrayer, you keep pushing for Scotland to take the low road to failure. If you’re not of her ilk, if you’re genuinely looking to find Scottish liberation, then you are also betraying yourself by your insistence on the losing strategy.

      And as you have brought up your argument with Gareth Wardell over “truth”, it’s plain to all of us that Gareth and the truth come a joint first, with you a distant third.

    197. Pixywine says:

      Ruby. As long as a book has no industrial metal cutting equipment hidden within its covers you can send books to a prisoner. Any book even the Colditz Story

    198. James Che. says:

      Fact and fiction.

      Fact.
      The Scottish are sovereign

      Fact,
      The Scottish people have a legal right to choose governs us.

      Fiction.
      The Scottish Parliament sovereign.

      Fiction,
      The Scottish parliament choose what date we are allowed to choose who governs.

      Fact.
      The Scottish Parliament cannot choose when or by what method whom governs us.

      As that would make the “ claim of right” the People have, in the Scotland act wrong by the Scottish government.
      It is a discrepancy overlooked by the independence supporters, and a deliberate hoodwink by Scottish independence leaders.

      The Scottish Parliament, AOUB, Alba, SNP, Greens are all blocking the Scottish people from chosen when it is Our right to choose whom governs us, by seeking the pretence of a referendum.

    199. Breeks says:

      James Che. says:
      30 August, 2021 at 11:31 am
      On the Scottish, gov site,
      It rattles on around the subject that the Scots are independent, and have the right to choose whom governs them.

      Then goes on to state.
      The Scottish government will decide when their will be a referendum.

      can see the decrepency?…

      I can, and always have.

      Years ago now, way back in the days of Robert Peffers, I made the suggestion we looked upon Scotland’s popular sovereignty as “red” sovereignty (reflecting the blood of the people), and Westminster’s sovereignty as “white” sovereignty (reflecting the divine origin), and asked the question whether Holyrood was “fuelled” by red sovereignty, white sovereignty, raspberry ripple sovereignty, or pink sovereignty.

      At that time, I sincerely believe the matter was highly contentious but very debatable, but most importantly of all, it was a matter which demanded more Constitutional clarity. The question needed an answer, because that answer was crucial to how Independence would come about.

      The only, ahem, “constructive” achievement of Sturgeon’s tenure has been to prove, or rather concede that there isn’t a drop of red sovereignty recognised in Holyrood. There is nothing but white sovereignty running through the veins of Holyrood.

      It absolutely didn’t have to be that way.

      Scotland could and should have stood firm, and made certain Holyrood’s democratic component, coming as it did from Scotland’s sovereign electorate, made certain that Holyrood a Scottish Institution fuelled with red sovereignty and token “tolerance” for the bogus convention of white Westminster sovereignty.

      Such has been Sturgeon’s Constitutional illiteracy and ineptitude, typified by her cowardly capitulation to Scotland’s Brexit, that she has set such lamentable precedents that there is now little doubt that Holyrood is, and forevermore will be a Westminster puppet “institution” which only respects the white sovereignty of Westminster.

      That is basis upon which Scotland should, in my opinion, see Sturgeon’s “Government” impeached, and divorced completely from any responsibility for, or representation of, Scotland’s popular sovereignty.

      Holyrood and Sturgeon’s “Government” in it, have turned Holyrood into a puppet assembly for a Vichy Scottish Government which swears fealty to Westminster. It is not fit to serve as Scotland’s leadership, nor lead Scotland’s Independence campaign. She herself belongs in jail.

    200. Andy Ellis says:

      @Lyn Hay 12.19 pm

      As I already said I’d always rated Gareth pretty highly and went out of my way to support him, which is why his untruthful allegations that I’d sent Stu Campbell messages about him – allegations which since they were utterly false he was of course unable to substantiate – came as such a shock and disappointment at the time.

      It says little for his reputation or his sense of honour that when I quite reasonably asked him to retract and apologise he failed to do so. People can draw their own conclusions from that I think.

      If you think I’m somehow advocating for the same as Sturgeon you clearly aren’t paying attention or event tangentially aware of my views, which would tend to colour how much faith can be placed in your contribution.

    201. J.o.e says:

      @James Che

      You are making great points.

      However the people we are up against are going after what ‘Scottish’ means.

      Its very clever and utterly ruthless. They get to promote a poisonous inverted form of nationalism that is distinctly anti-nationalist and take the moral high ground against those who point out that someone’s nation is more than just a piece of government paper. All the while our ability to choose our future as a nation is eroded under our feet while masses of people are imported, housed, helped into jobs and given welfare by the same political players who pointed fingers about food banks, poverty and a lack of housing just a few years ago.

      This is one major reason I contribute. In doing so I am part of a general resistance across Europe to what is being done to us.

    202. Andy Ellis says:

      @Wullie

      “Swamped”?

      Really?

      That’s the hill you want the Yes movement to die on?

      You’re seriously suggesting that a country where 84% of the population were born in Scotland (2011 census) is swamped?

      Do you realise how UKIPy that sounds?

      That’s honestly the kind of progressive “better nation” you’re proposing we build?

      Aye, right. 🙁

    203. J.o.e says:

      ‘That’s the hill you want the Yes movement to die on?’

      The Yes movement needs to die.

      Real Scottish nationalism needs to emerge

    204. Sensible Dave says:

      Breeks 12.19

      You wrote “I’ve said as much before, but I’ll say it again, it is us, our collective Western foreign policy throughout the Middle East, which is responsible for the radicalisation of Islam. We created the Taliban. It is our chicken coming home to roost.”

      It was in the 18th century that Wahhab advocated a return to a “purer” form of Islam, focusing on its origins and the absolute sovereignty of God. That meant the banning the cult of saints and forbidding tobacco, alcohol and shaving. At the same time, the standing and rights of females and non-believers were also redefined.

      This started in Saudi Arabia and they have spent billions promoting the Wahhabi version of Islam around the middle east and beyond. They fund the madrasas that teach very strict, tough and uncompromising Wahhabism.

      You will be very aware that most Muslims do not follow Wahhabism but they suffer the consequences of it – as a result of the more puritanical interpretation that leads to the conflicts with the West and their “guilt by association”.

      Wahhabism does not pursue democracy or condone personal freedom of choice where it is at odds with their interpretation.

      We in the west are increasingly left not knowing how to respond to our perception of their brutality and oppression of ordinary folk – that do not follow their version of the religion.

      I am not surprised that you seek to blame “the West” for all these developments, that’s your “go to” position and you doubtless believe it adds weight to your personal position of feeling oppressed by a typical western government i.e. Westminster (despite indyref1 and the graph shown by the Rev on opinion polls).

      You only have to watch the news to see that the “ordinary” folk in Afghanistan are now having their lives turned upside down by an organised, armed, unelected regime.

      No Breeks, as is so often the case, problems arise in countries where democracy is challenged by armed groups who seek to impose their views on others undemocratically.

      The tragedy unfolding in Afghanistan illustrates that we in the west do not understand the demonstrated degree of commitment to a religion that does not uphold democracy and personal freedom of choice.

      For 20 years, many Afghans were able to have a life that was more similar to yours and mine and the freedoms we take for granted. But then, for all sorts of reasons (costs, loss of life, criticism of nation building/colonialism) “the west” decided that we had to withdraw – thus leaving the Afghan people to their fate.

      I do not know the answers. However, I know that ordinary folk in Afghanistan were able to experience some degree of safety and freedom over the last 20 year period – that they would not have had otherwise. I know that there are girls, that are now women, that received an education and were free to go to work and pursue careers. I know that the law did not allow 12 year old girls into forced marriages and the subsequent repercussions of that degree of control.

      We in the west can only hope that this latest incarnation of Taliban rule is more benign than the previous.

      It would appear that there is nothing we can do further to support the ordinary citizens of Afghanistan.

    205. James Che. says:

      Breeks .
      That is exactly what I am writing about. The hoodwink.
      It is not up to the SNp or any other politician.

      It is the people’s claim of right,
      We can legal hold a vote any time we like. anyhow and any where. It is not necessary to even go through the devolved parliament. It does not state in the claim of right the people have to do it this way.

      J.o.e.

      That is why it will be necessary to have a residency limit applied to our vote,

    206. Mac says:

      Anyone who call themselves ‘progressive’ has self-identified as a cunt. Pronouns cunto and cunty.

    207. Confused says:

      sensible

      who put the house of saud in charge? (-gifting these barbaric nutters the world’s greatest natural prize) hint : peter otoole, david lean, te lawrence

      afghanistan was progressing towards a modern, secular state, but the US cold war hawks decided it had ventured too far to the soviet sphere and then decided to “arm up the nutters”, to create islamic terrorism as a geopolitical play to destroy communism; brezinski thought it was a small price to pay for defeating communism, a greater threat, but it is always “my omelette, your eggs” with these people.

      these cold war hawks (reagan era) thought themselves really clever to sucker the soviets into the place – a real dumb move; but then they repeated the error 20 years later (tho it was the neocons in charge by then, which supplies you the reason)

      – that shitshow is a joint US/British operation, going way back.

    208. James Che. says:

      I would suggest we organised a Scottish sovereign people’s parliament.

      NOT a citizens parliament.
      NOT a community parliament.
      NOT a assembly.

      But always a Parliament that remains in the people’s hands, a shared Scottish sovereign people’s parliament,

      To eliminate crooked politicians,
      No one person will be leader or come from a political party. They would be voted in individually, and would only legally hold office for say, three years at most,
      This way no one individual could be corrupt or corrupt politics in Scotland.

    209. James Che. says:

      The people that live in a country should run their country democratically.

    210. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis 30 August, 2021 at 12:42 pm

      “You’re seriously suggesting that a country where 84% of the population were born in Scotland (2011 census) is swamped?”

      Two things, Andy, if you would.

      1) Stop quoting the 2011 census. Get yourself some up-to-date figures. We are in the second half of 2021. There have been a lot of inner tubes across the channel and a lot of moving vans up the M6 since 2011.

      2) You cavil at 84% and that is your right. Tell us what your minimum figure for the percentage of indigenous Scots is so that we can plan. For one thing, that will allow us to do the math, extrapolate forwards, and identify the year at which even your generous red line will be reached.

      OK, maybes a third thing. On that happy or unhappy day, (depending on your viewpoint), what’s the exit strategy? How do we go from unlimited open borders to drawbridge up and boiling oil on the parapets overnight? For starters, how will we convince the new “final” percentage of non-indigenes that no more of their spouses, kids, friends, or cousins will be allowed in. Won’t they all have a vote too?

    211. Captain Yossarian says:

      “The people that live in a country should run their country democratically”.

      Is that happening just now, James? Is it Westminster’s fault that Craig Murray is languishing in Sauchton Jail? We have all been told several times that this is a world first. An ex senior politician on trial at the High Court? That’s maybe not a world first, but highly unusual, wouldn’t you agree. Malicious prosecutions every 8-10 weeks?…..Democracy?

    212. Mist001 says:

      “That is why it will be necessary to have a residency limit applied to our vote”

      Impossible. Scotland is still a part of the UK so you can’t deny its citizens a vote.

      There are far more native Scots in Scotland than there are non Scots, so if you can’t sell independence to the majority, then you’ve failed badly, especially so in the current climate.

      How could an independent Scotland ever claim to be a democracy when it’s denied people living there the right to vote?

      You people are fucking loons.

    213. J.o.e says:

      @John Main

      Very good points made

    214. Andy Ellis says:

      @ John Main 1.40 pm

      1) That was the year of the last full census. NRS Scotland also publishes figures. The last set published in Oct. 2020 covering up to mid 2019 puts Scotland’s population at an all time high of 5.46 million. That shows 7% of the population being non UK nationals. 60% of them are EU nationals. In the year to June 2019 10,000 more people moved from the rest of the UK to Scotland than moved from Scotland to the rest of the UK (47,500 in, 37,400 out). We have no way of knowing how many of the 10,000 were Scots returning or people born in E/W/NI. In the same year 20,200 more people moved from overseas (I.e. excluding UK) to Scotland than moved from Scotland to overseas. Again, we have no idea how they would vote.

      2) I don’t really care what the % is John. My point is that the scare stories about being swamped need to be seen for what they are. It’s fair enough if you want to stand with those who oppose any immigration or want it to be severely limited. I believe that’s wrong, particularly in a country where deaths outstrip births. Where do you see future taxpayers and workers coming from to care for our ageing population, to run out services and industries? I haven’t seen anybody advocating open door immigration from outside the UK, but it seems to me that predictions of “real” Scots being swamped by “incomers” – whether English or from anywhere else – are no more valid than the kind of over the top scare mongering we heard from UKIP and (mostly) the further right of the Conservative party for decades. If that’s your constituency then fair enough, but it’s not mine.

      3) From memory the planned citizenship qualifications were set out pretty clearly in the White Paper in 2014 and accepted pretty widely. I don’t recall any real disagreement about them as they seemed eminently reasonable and in keeping with international practice. All those born here or wit Scottish born parents automatically qualified. Those normally resident here on independence could opt for Scottish citizenship.

      Again from memory the Irish pattern was followed for people with grandparents born here: they could apply. Post independence the new state can apply whatever citizenship criteria and immigration regulations it feels are appropriate, sustainable and have public support. However, the precedent for qualifying for independence referendum inclusion is overwhelmingly residence, NOT birth / ethnicity. Those who are arguing it should be different in Scotland’s case because the overwhelming majority of “born” Scots can’t be persuaded to vote for independence are in the end making the case for unionists and British nationalists who aren’t saying we haven’t made a good enough case, they’re saying there is simply no majority appetite for independence. Cavilling at the influence of a few thousand incomers votes where they may hold the balance of power in a population simply emphasises the point that if we can’t persuade enough native Scots to support independence we can hardly complain when incomers also decline to do so.

    215. Ottomanboi says:

      Huxley’s Brave «New Normal»
      https://archive.is/RQ2d1
      OR
      https://off-guardian.org/2021/08/28/mrna-vaccines-eugenics-the-push-for-transhumanism/
      https://thehighwire.com/videos/mrna-vaccine-inventor-calls-for-stop-of-covid-vax/
      La Sturgeon tests negative, figures!
      Is there anything positive about her and her crew?

    216. James Che. says:

      Mistoo1.

      Of course we can,

      It’s in the title. The Claim of right. And wording.
      The Scottish people have the right to choose whom governs them.
      It does not say other people from other countries. It does not say the uk.

      So if the people of Scotland ( not necessarily in Scotland) decide to allow others to vote with a limitation of length of residency,
      not only are the Scottish people being democrat, but generous, considerate, and kind.

    217. Robert Graham says:

      Still a few comments about Indy ref2 oh dear stop wasting your time it’s off the menu unless Sturgeon is removed even then the total lack of any move by the SNP MSPs and party in general renders that whole party redundant and not fit for the purpose it was formed .

      Alba has years of progress and ground to make up until it’s to be seen a serious contender to challenge this corrupt SNP management as for the members take your party back Sturgeon does not own the SNP the members are the party not Sturgeon and her inner circle that’s just been added to by the inclusion of two bat shit Loony Green Party members who can’t gain enough support to be of any consequence .

      I hope everyone is having a good laugh at Sturgeons attempt at a publicity stunt she says it’s just as well she has had 2 shots of the wonder serum or she would have to isolate , Isolation means no treatment given nothing to combat or alleviate any symptoms just keep away from everyone , oh fk anything to attempt to influence the gullible to get the wonder juice that incidentally is still under emergency measures and still has a liability shield for the manufacturers nothing has changed just a play on weasel wording and it’s still in the trial stage and that doesn’t complete until 2022 .

    218. James Che. says:

      Robert Graham.

      Why is it of the table?

      The claim of right is owned by the people, not NS, not the SNP, not the Scottish devolved Parliament, not politicians.

      The only delays are our own.

    219. James Che. says:

      Andy Ellis,

      You are a little bit confused over whom has the right to have a vote.

      It distinctly says the people of Scotland, in “the claim of right”

      It does not stipulate before independence or after independence criteria,

      As the claim of right, does not have to follow the criteria of uk electoral roll. The uk government dictates or the devolved Scottish government.
      The clues really are there for you to read in the Scotland Act,
      It will not be decided by the government, as the government are not sovereign as are the Scottish people are. Instead it say the people of Scotland have the right to choose whom governs us.

      We simply might choose to set up a totally new government, that is not devolved,

    220. Breeks says:

      I think people are also mixing up nationality with citizenship.

      Your nationality is fixed by birth and unalterable, but Citizenship is different. Citizenship can be earned by naturalisation, bestowed, granted (or revoked), and you can have multiple citizenship… but it remains Citizenship. It does not become your “new” nationality… ever.

      I think, though confess I’m not 100% sure, that “dual” Nationality is actually a misleading definition, because you don’t have two Nationalities. Only one is your Nationality, the other is Citizenship. It may be automatic citizenship, and to all intents and purposes effectively function as a second nationality, but it remains Citizenship.

      Nationality also doesn’t come from your parentage. Nationality is determined by where you are born. Your parentage might secure you automatic citizenship, but that’s not the same thing as nationality.

      I’ll pick up on what James Che has been saying about clarity, and matters like Sovereignty, nationality, Citizenship, etc turn into endless heated debates because there is a desperate lack of clarity and focus about the process, and the very same absence of clarity and understanding about what Sovereignty and Independence actually means.

      Only Nationals are born here, (or there, or wherever). That is neither a prejudice nor a racism, it’s simply legal fact. The place of your birth is unalterable.

      I suppose that matters even more in Scotland, because Scottish Sovereignty is a birthright that is indivisible from nationality. The terms are mutually inclusive.

      Therefore IF new-Scots, immigrants, those earning citizenship are to be included as Sovereign citizens, there are ramifications for Scotland doing that, because we are recreating the same anomalies between Nationality and Citizenship, for those born sovereign and those who have it bestowed on them.

      In the eyes of the law, I don’t think that Scottish Nationals and Scottish Citizens can ever be precisely the same thing. There will always be an indelible distinction, and Scottish Citizens will not be automatically sovereign.

    221. James Che. says:

      John main.

      When you use logic, you confuse Andy Ellis. 🙂

    222. Republicofscotland says:

      on the new book and its extracts, Alex Salmond takes his gloves off.

      https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/08/30/alex-salmond-goes-on-the-attack/comment-page-1/#comment-18765

    223. Andy Ellis says:

      @ James Che 3.17pm

      Wind yer neck in James. I know about the claims of right. I know about the sovereignty of the Scottish people. Nobody here is arguing otherwise. Moving from a bald assertion of popular sovereignty to the practical enactment of independence and its international acceptance is another thing.

      Again, nobody is saying there is only one route, but I’m trying and failing to see what it is you are actually advocating for? In practical terms the will of the people is enacted either via their elected representatives or via a referendum, unless you’re advocating revolution and all power to the Soviets? UDI is also an option in extremis, but unless and until you come up with something more convincing than airy assurances that the people are sovereign and will somehow magically deliver independence, we’re entitled to ask: “where’s the beef?” As the old Wendy’s ad famously asked?

      I’m pretty convinced #indyref2 is a dead duck for the next 5-10 years, particularly as the current SNP will never deliver it as currently constituted, and there seems no real prospect of its membership effecting the necessary changes to overthrow Sturgeon. That only leaves plebiscitary elections in the short to medium term, so we better all hope that Alba makes progress towards holding the balance of power unless we want a real generation to pass before we get another shot at independence.

    224. Breeks says:

      The point I forgot to add… lol.

      IF you want to hold a Constitutional Referendum on Scottish Independence, only Scottish Nationals, those people physically born in Scotland, are sovereign.

      Citizenship does not bestow Sovereignty.

      If you want a simple but robustly legal voters franchise… there you have it.

      I’m not saying that’s the best franchise for Scotland, nor am I saying that would be politically acceptable, but it might not be the worst place to start when devising an appropriate franchise for Scottish Sovereign affairs.

    225. Andy Ellis says:

      @ James Che 3.27pm

      You’re hilarious. An attack about as threatening as being savaged by the proverbial dead sheep. 🙂

    226. James Che. says:

      Breeks the distinction is well made between bestowed citizenship and where you are born literally.

      I myself cannot be accused of being bias, as Andy Ellis would imply.
      My younger and older brothers and sisters were born in Scotland,
      But my fathers work took him south for a short period, hence I was born in England.

      However I believe with all my heart and fight for the right of the Scottish people to decide on whom should vote in their country to become independent,
      and also firmly believe that the Scottish people should use “their, claim of right” to their advantage, even if it eliminates my own vote.
      Scotland and Scottish people must save their country from the mad mad world and corrupt politicians first and foremost.

      That’s democracy. The right to self determination

    227. James Che. says:

      Mist001.

      Cannot accuse myself of being narrow in this view either,
      It is a matter for the people of Scotland and the people of Scotland alone, they will decide,

    228. Andy Ellis says:

      @Breeks 3.35 pm

      Well…no, because it’s doubtful you’d ever gain independence using that argument. Surely in our case sovereignty will bestow citizenship? One can’t become a citizen of a country until that country formally exists. When independence happens lots of new Scots will become – or more exactly chose to become – citizens of Scotland rather than remain citizens of the rump UK or other countries they may have come from.

      If you’re starting from the exclusionary basis that popular sovereignty “belongs” only to those born in Scotland, and excludes those who have lived here for years or decades, you’ve just alienated a large chunk of the Scottish electorate (comprising of both new Scots and native born Scots horrified at the implications of such an exclusion). You’re also implicitly enfranchising an estimated 750,000 Scots born people in the rest of the UK and probably another 200,000 in the rest of the world. How sure are you they’re all going to support independence?

      Are we really saying that it’s logical and defensible to exclude foreign born residents who have been here for extended periods, but to include Scots born people who have never lived here or contributed? Good luck with that!

    229. chas says:

      I shall attempt to broadly categorise the posters on this site-

      1) Those who want Independence at any cost. No sensible thought on how to get there or how things will work when achieved. Events that happened hundreds of years ago are very important to them.

      2) Those who want Independence but the current SNP to play no part, especially Mrs Murrell and her acolytes who, they realise, will use any means possible to cling on to power.

      3) Those who want Independence but concede that there are lots of difficult questions that have to be answered before we get there.

      4) Conspiracy theorists and anti vaxers.

      5) Unionists who desire to keep the status quo when it is clearly not working for the majority of Scots.

      6) Those who are clearly looking for an argument-about anything/anybody who do not conform to their view.

      I find myself torn between numbers 2 and 3. Where do YOU see yourself?

      To my mind the biggest danger to a successful Scotland is not number 5 but those in category 1.

    230. James Che. says:

      Andy Ellis.

      Misleading by default as usual. A few correction as to your mistakes.

      Mistake 1)
      The will of the Scottish people is only enacted either through their elected representatives.
      [ that is, until the Scottish people withdraw it.]

      Mistake 2)
      referendum via the government is the only option.
      No it’s not,
      The claim of right itself contradicts you’re mantra, for the Scottish people. They chose the method.

      Mistake 3)
      UDI is a legal political stance any governing government cannot take, (correct)
      but not the legal political stance of the [ PEOPLE ] of Scotland whom have governments approvel to chose whom governs them. So cannot be classed under the category in any legal sense of UDI.

      Mistake 4)
      By the very statement of the Scotland Act. Under “the claim of right” that the Scottish people have the option to chose whom governs them, without stipulations in of itself secures the the sovereignty of the Scottish people as that separate from the rest of the uk.

    231. Breeks says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      30 August, 2021 at 4:07 pm
      @Breeks 3.35 pm

      Well…no, because it’s doubtful you’d ever gain independence using that argument. Surely in our case sovereignty will bestow citizenship?

      There isn’t a choice here. It isn’t an argument. It’s the status in law. It simply “is”. You can choose not to accept it, but non-acceptance doesn’t change it.

      Scottish Nationals are ONLY born in Scotland. English Nationals are ONLY born in England. French Nationals are ONLY born in France. They are all Citizens by default.

      But not all Citizens are Nationals, because Citizenship covers a broader spectrum of people, and includes non-Nationals. Uniquely in Scotland’s case, those non-Nationals must also be considered as non-Sovereigns because they lack the sovereign birthright of Scottish Nationals. No debate, they just do.

      By rights, in Scotland, Scottish democracy which includes non-National Citizens is fine for a democratic edict and day to day Government, but those edicts should not be, cannot be, interpreted as sovereign.

      Those issues, those Sovereign issues, Constitutional issues such as a Referendum on the Union, require a different franchise, which to be right and proper, MUST exclude non-national Citizens so as to avoid diluting or compromising the sovereign will of Scottish Nationals.

      Stop thinking about “gaining Independence”. Emancipate Scottish Sovereignty, see it’s International Recognition rightfully and properly restored, and the Treaty of Union is consigned to the dustbin.

      It isn’t Scotland’s Constitution or Sovereignty that is flawed, unsound or compromised. It is suppressed and subjugated, but that’s the injustice to be put right. It is the Treaty of Union which is the fallacy and the fiction, and which cannot survive a truly Constitutional audit.

    232. Andy Ellis says:

      @ James Che

      There is no attempt to mislead whether by default or otherwise. The fact you can’t present a cogent argument as to what it is you actually propose happens speaks volumes.

      1) A truism. Again, nobody is saying anything different. If the Scottish people withdraw their consent from their elected representatives, then they no longer represent us. Then what? Please show your working.

      2) It’s not a “mistake” just because you disagree with it James. Try to interact with what people actually write and say, not with what you wrongly infer, or what the voices in your head tell you OK? We’d all get on a lot faster that way without all your deflections and half baked assertions. The claim of right. whilst interesting won’t deliver independence, still less international recognition.

      The international community is the ultimate arbiter of whether we are accepted as an independent state, unless you’re happy to end up like Northern Cyprus, Transnistria, South Ossetia and Somaliland. The international community doesn’t care about the claims of right and the treaties of union. It IS interested in practical politics, and ensuring a clear answer, to a clear question, approved by a clear majority. It is largely agnostic about whether it’s done via referendum or plebiscitary elections.

      3) I have no idea what that word salad even means. Doubtless it made sense in your head. On the page it’s just gobbledegook.

      4) Irrelevant. In the end every people has to “take” independence, not be “given” it. If the Scotland Act is used by British nationalists to frustrate the holding or a referendum, then we either go ahead and challenge it in court (or to the international community), or we simply abandon the referendum route as incompatible with the settled will of a people who have made their aspirations clear and use a different route. Again, it’s not me or Westminster you have to convince, it’s the international community. The right of self determination may be a peremptory norm in international law, but it is neither unlimited or automatic.

      Banging on about the claim of right and popular sovereignty focusing on the bi-lateral Holyrood/Westminster relationship and ignoring the need for international recognition just makes you look ill informed.

    233. Ruby says:

      I found it astonishing to find out that Ms A & Ms B were very young very inexperience civil servants.

      What on earth were they doing in the job?

    234. Ottomanboi says:

      From Virus to Taliban.
      https://archive.ph/NEbWP
      Fear and loathing in BritState.
      A strong feeling of Schadenfreude? .

    235. Mia says:

      “Alex Salmond takes his gloves off”

      Is that sensible? The council elections are in 8 months’ time.

      What if engaging him in the fight is precisely what the bstrds are after – to

      a) tie him down in more legal battles, to bankrupt him, stopping him gaining a seat and to stop Alba trashing Sturgeon’s quadriplegic SNP in the upcoming council and General elections

      b) distract the yes movement from the dodgy shenanigans of Sturgeon’s quadriplegic SNP with the ringfenced money

      c) distract the yes movement from the dodgy deal between STurgeon and the faux Greens to destroy females’ rights while simply paying lip service to independence.

      That book is in my view either a deliberate provocation or a deliberate distraction. The timing of the launching of that book, right at the point the dodgy deal between Sturgeon and the faux greens is announced and just as the SNP accounts for 2020 are released, is, to say the least, interesting.

      It seems to me that it is not only the british state who is shitting itself at the prospect of ALBA progressing. British state’s long term and more recently acquired useful idiots in Scotland, such as Sturgeon, her quadriplegic SNP NEC and the faux greens, all masters at distraction, deflection, procrastination, contempt for democracy and engineered division of the yes movement, appear to be shitting themselves too, so they need a shield to hide like cowards behind.

      In my personal opinion, what we are seeing here is yet another bottom of the barrel collusion. Another desperate and dirty attempt to stop Mr Salmond and Alba trashing the political fraud and her quadriplegic party to ashes (metaphorically speaking of course), while subtlety trying to pump up the credibility of a bunch of irresponsible perjurers and a chronically corrupt civil service in Scotland.

      I never thought I would see the day when the SNP would be fiercely guarded and protected by the unionist press. But having said that, the only thing Sturgeon’s political contraption has left of the SNP is the name. The rest appears to be a remastered version of New Labour, albeit operating under a yellow flag.

    236. twathater says:

      All the guff about being unable to convince enough Scots to vote for independence is the typical diversionary argument which has been pushed time immemorial by the resident English (I don’t have a view and don’t care) troll on a independence supporting website .

      Neither he or Andy (I hate nativists) take cognisance of or respond to the obvious , blatant ,illegal and continuous lies and corruption FORCED on the people of Scotland when they were making their decision, PROJECT FEAR ON STEROIDS
      Pensions ,the EU , poverty ,oil running out , isolation ,auld lizzie , arsehole celebrities , arsehole presidents ,borders ,family being foreigners ,the BBC and all the broadcasters pushing for the union and AGAINST independence and much much more ,BUT Andy likes to refer to it as the we wus robbed fantasy, well Andy as someone who saw that shite every day in Scotland and hated the corrupt bastards for their lies and corruption , I can confidently say WE WUS ROBBED , but then again Andy you and the troll were in Engerland so you wouldn’t care about the lies and pish subverting honesty and democracy

    237. Mia says:

      “What on earth were they doing in the job?”

      And even better: who hired them and to do what?

      Evans is, we were led to believe, very experienced. She has certainly being paid for that alleged “experience” and then more.

      Yet, that experience did not stop her making a complete boob of the complaints procedure which ended up costing taxpayers millions, nor trashing the reputation and political impartiality of the civil service and shadow Scottish government in Scotland.

      So what the hell is such incompetent still doing as permanent secretary?

      Why wasn’t she sacked for gross misconduct the day the verdict of that civil case was released?

    238. Hatuey says:

      It looks to me like Andy Ellis has won the debate, despite being dramatically outnumbered. I’m open to ideas and willing to be pragmatic on anything that helps win independence, but I haven’t read anything persuasive here from the ‘blood and soil’ camp.

      It strikes me that a lot of people are too lazy to do good old fashioned research and explain how changing the franchise would help. I hoped for some detailed analysis and discussion but all we got was the same old hollow assurance that it would help, without any substantiation.

      And that’s not good enough. This is your core argument. I could probably crunch into that subject and make a compelling argument with supporting data in about 30 minutes. None of you done it.

      Poor show.

    239. Mia says:

      “The fact you can’t present a cogent argument as to what it is you actually propose”

      Where is yours?

      “Banging on about the claim of right and popular sovereignty focusing on the bi-lateral Holyrood/Westminster relationship and ignoring the need for international recognition just makes you look ill informed”

      The international recognition starts by Scotland’s so called pro independence politicians and the cringe acknowledging that the legal basis for the Uk union is in fact an legitimate international treaty between two independent, equally sovereign states. An international treaty that can be ended by Scotland at any moment of its choosing exercising its sovereignty.

      There is only one reason and one reason only why somebody would so insistently attempt to stop the people of Scotland looking at that legitimate international treaty to evaluate its meaning and its use, and instead force their attention on to some two worded bllcks like “international recognition” or “civic nationalism”, “ethic nationalism” or other churned vacuous crap of the sort.

      That reason is that you don’t want them to be aware that this international treaty, which was the main entry door to the union, happens to be also the main exit door and Scotland has had a copy of the effing key since 1707.

      Are you really a supporter of Scotland’s independence, Andy, or just pretending to be one and using that pretence to “lecture” us in unionist propaganda?

    240. Ruby says:

      twathater says:

      Neither he or Andy (I hate nativists) take cognisance of or respond to the obvious , blatant ,illegal and continuous lies and corruption FORCED on the people of Scotland when they were making their decision, PROJECT FEAR ON STEROIDS
      Pensions ,the EU , poverty ,oil running out , isolation ,auld lizzie , arsehole celebrities , arsehole presidents ,borders ,family being foreigners ,the BBC and all the broadcasters pushing for the union and AGAINST independence and much much more

      Reply

      With all that the result of the ‘2014 Dress Rehearsal’ was amazing.

      The Unionists only managed to scrape through with 55%!

      I’ve been scrolling past Andy’s posts.

      I would agree ‘WE WUS ROBBED’

      We wus definitely robbed of information. One thing that stood out for me was the lack of information re EU membership. Unionists refused to approach EC for a definitive answer.

    241. Ruby says:

      We wus robbed of info re dual British-Scottish nationality.

      The issue that Iain Davidson was having nightmares about because dual British-Scottish nationality would mean people in Scotland would get the heating allowance.

    242. Ottomanboi says:

      Some say Scotland is not a colony. As a cultural «outsider» it presents as a classic example.
      Europe’s last remaining third world country.
      The SNP is plainly not the solution, having taken the «queen’s shilling».

    243. Ruby says:

      I’m not too sure if it was the case with the franchise but I did feel that the SNP caved in to Unionists just to keep the peace they already had the problem of being called ‘The Scottish Nationalist Party’.

    244. Andy Ellis says:

      @Hatuey 6.07 pm

      Why thanks! Even if we haven’t always agreed it’s nice to see that the voluble lunatics haven’t altogether taken over the asylum!

      As you say, the core of their argument is without merit. Not only is it morally and politically flawed, but they can’t really justify it in numerical terms. No matter how often it is pointed out they just keep popping up: it’s nativist whack a mole.

      Even if the electorate were prepared to ignore the truly awful blood and soil optics of this electoral madness, they just refuse to engage with the obvious counterpoint which Mist001 and others grasped easily: why can’t we fashion a majority from the >80% of native born Scots? Instead they obsess about the asserted tsunami of incomers, or trot out Alf Baird’s vacuous “Scotland as colony” schtick, which is as insulting to victims of real colonialism as it is historically and politically spurious.

      None of them have crunched the numbers or mounted a credible counter argument because there isn’t one. They’re a fringe group of nutters who have managed to hi-jack BTL comments in here because most of the grown ups have given up in disgust.

    245. Ruby says:

      Mia says:
      30 August, 2021 at 6:04 pm
      “What on earth were they doing in the job?”

      And even better: who hired them and to do what?

      Reply

      You would have thought Alex Salmond would have deserved better than very young inexperienced civil servants.

      Then there is the issue of requiring to be a bit mature and worldly to do the job. A mature worldly woman would react totally differently to a very young inexperienced woman.

      A mature worldly woman wouldn’t have been terrified to say to Alex Salmond. ‘No I don’t want to watch a film I want to go home. Tough shit if you don’t like it. Bye see you tomorrow.’

    246. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      30 August, 2021 at 6:48 pm
      @Hatuey 6.07 pm

      Why thanks! Even if we haven’t always agreed it’s nice to see that the voluble lunatics haven’t altogether taken over the asylum!

      Reply

      FFS Andy give it a rest you have been pissing up this toilet wall all day long.

      Any views on the Salmond story?

    247. Ruby says:

      Mia says:
      30 August, 2021 at 5:45 pm
      “Alex Salmond takes his gloves off”

      Is that sensible?

      Reply

      Fuckin’ right it’s sensible.

      YES movement need to stop caving in to Unionists.

    248. Mia says:

      “Again, it’s not me or Westminster you have to convince, it’s the international community”

      No, it isn’t, actually. The people who needs to be convinced are our so called “Scotland’s representatives”, both in Holyrood and Westminster. They need to be convinced that either they respect Scotland’s sovereignty, claim of right and democratic will, or they will be booted out of their nice seats at the first opportunity. So far, Sturgeon’s quadriplegic SNP has been denying Scotland its sovereignty, claim of right and democratic will since 8th May 2015.

      From where I am standing, not a single one of the corrupt and unprincipled amoebas sitting waving the SNP or Scot Greens’ flag in both chambers, and who like to call themselves representatives of Scotland, give a sht about Scotland’s sovereignty, Scotland’s will and Scotland’s interests.

      Only when those amoebas see the writing on the wall saying that either they move their backsides and deliver independence or they can kiss goodbye to their fat pay cheques and nice pensions, we will have independence.

      It is not Westminster or the international community who we have to direct our wrath and our demands for independence. It is towards those who sit in Holyrood and Westminster occupying Scotland’s seats and having been elected as Scotland’s representatives, starting with those whose party’s constitution includes seeking Scotland’s independence.

      A referendum is not necessary for independence. It never was. The referendum has been used by the British state in collusion with its useful idiots in Sturgeon’s SNP as a tool to deny us our sovereignty, our democratic will, our claim of right and our right to self determination since 8th May 2015.

      What we desperately need is real pro-indy candidates who see indyref, the S30, Scotland’s Act, two-worded bullshit like “civic nationalism” and “international recognition” for what they are – tools to deny Scotland its own sovereignty.

      We need pro indy candidates who are prepared to take the rug from under Westminster, the political fraud and her SNP-like contraption. We need pro indy candidates who are not ashamed nor scared to acknowledge and enact a mandate to exercise Scotland’s sovereignty by directly terminating the treaty of union.

      For as long as we keep handing our seats to political frauds and uncommitted amoebas like Sturgeon’s quadriplegic SNP, we will not see Scotland’s independence.

    249. James Che. says:

      Andy Ellis.

      One day the people of Scotland will actually use the claim of right and their sovereignty along with ending the treaty of the union. And the right to self determination,
      Maybe all four at once.

      For I can see the people of Scotland getting pretty fed up with being told and led through a ring in their nose by Such obvious unionist telling them there is no door out except for your way, hatueys way or some of the others shadowing the independence movement,

      One day ithat will be the straw that breaks the camels back.
      All they have to do is decide to do it.

      I would like to see anyone trying to convince a court [ afterwards ] that the Scots cannot end the treaty of the union, that the Scottish claim of right is wrong and not in writing. Or that the right to self determination is illegal, or that sovereignty of the Scottish people is illegal.

      For it would bring massive worldwide attention to the Scots being a colony under the British government.

    250. Mia says:

      “YES movement need to stop caving in to Unionists”

      Unionists, pretend independentists, corrupt civil servants, corrupt judges and corrupt COPFS.

      Council elections are 8 months away. What if this is just a poisoned bone?

    251. sarah says:

      Craig Murray likes historical fiction, he told me in his reply today to my email.

      So I shall be sending the first three Robert Carey novels by PF Chalmers tomorrow. I mention this in case somebody else had the same author in mind.

    252. Ruby says:

      Mia says:
      30 August, 2021 at 7:09 pm

      Council elections are 8 months away. What if this is just a poisoned bone?

      Reply

      They’ll be plenty poisoned bones between now and the council elections. What I say is make them eat their own poisoned bone now and they might start to ‘beware of the dog’. I’m referring to a ‘rottweiler’ not some wee ginger snappy thing that just yaps!

    253. Ron Maclean says:

      Sixty percent pro-independence should be achievable in polling before an independence referendum. That would help avoid pedantic deflecting arguments about racism, nativism etc. The case for independence has not been made during the last six years and needs much more effort to increase the 45% achieved in 2014. That campaign relied on dubious, unsupported propositions – for example; EU membership, currency, positive campaigns always defeat negative campaigns etc. Now, there’s not even that.

      Much more is needed but that will require change. Change is never attractive to those who think they might have something to lose. How much co-ordination and collaboration is there between the beneficiaries of Union largesse, directly or indirectly, and how far will they go to protect their positions when they recognise threats. Judging by recent events as far as the end justifies the means and retribution is avoided.

      Too many of these supposed representatives of the people have sat in silent inaction for the last six years while their leaders supervised tawdry recriminations, malicious prosecutions and fruitless demands ending inevitably in humiliation and rejection.

      Where are the whistleblowers?

      We have to find, urgently, an untainted, competent, ethical, determined and tough leadership team capable of confronting and controlling our self-serving, deceitful establishment, running the country, promoting independence and going on to achieve it.

      And that’s just the start.

    254. Mia says:

      “What I say is make them eat their own poisoned bone now and they might start to ‘beware of the dog’ ”

      I hope you are right, Ruby. I am a bit uneasy about the timing of this. Too much of a coincidence with the dodgy deal of Sturgeon with the faux greens and with the releasing of the SNP accounts for 2020

      My gut tells me that this is a distraction because there might be something in those accounts they do not want people to look into in detail.

    255. Breeks says:

      Ruby says:
      30 August, 2021 at 6:53 pm
      Mia says:
      30 August, 2021 at 5:45 pm
      “Alex Salmond takes his gloves off”

      Is that sensible?

      I don’t think it’s not sensible, but he’s reporting aspects of the book to the COPFS, when COPFS has been a big part of the problem. Expectations of justice are thus pretty low. Nevertheless, I think Alex Salmond has good judgement.

      To be honest, my main concern about such a crass book of “rrevelation”, is that it seems clumsy, totally contrived and orchestrated. It almost feels like it’s a diversion, and the real attack is coming from some other direction.

      I actually wonder if it’s an attempt to steer the narrative, like the way they’ve diverted Joanna Cherry away from Constitutional challenges and into women’s rights issues. Perhaps they’re trying to bait Alex Salmond the same way to divert his talents and resources away from ALBA and Indy.

    256. Mia says:

      “It almost feels like it’s a diversion, and the real attack is coming from some other direction”

      Precisely.

    257. Breeks says:

      Ha ha ha Mia… snap!

    258. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I tried, for ages, to post this comment at…

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2021/08/30/salmond-v-book-authors/

      but WordPress kept going into a “no deal” loop. So I’ll post it here…

      At some point, the justice system in Scotland is going to have to nail its colours to the mast of impartiality. One journalist has already been jailed, whilst others were hassled. The common theme? They are pro-independence.
      It’s time for Scottish justice to take aim at those who think they are above the law.

    259. Ruby says:

      What I’m finding interesting about ‘The Break Up’ is learning more about the civil servants who worked for Alex Salmond.

      ie the driver who reported Alex to the police due to exploding sparkling water bottle. What a plonker!

      Ms A & Ms B being very young & inexperienced.

    260. Robert Hughes says:

      ” To be honest, my main concern about such a crass book of “rrevelation”, is that it seems clumsy, totally contrived and orchestrated. It almost feels like it’s a diversion, and the real attack is coming from some other direction. ”

      Entirely possible Breeks ( and Mia ) .

      On the other hand …..

      Just a tawdry attempted cash-in by a pair of opportunistic hacks destined to gather dust on a charity shop shelf within a few months of publication ?

      Which , of course , if accurate , doesn’t preclude the possibility that the timing of publication – and serialisation in The Times – hasn’t been calculated to serve the purposes you refer to –

    261. McDuff says:

      Grouse Beater 11.02
      Willie 12.11
      Good posts, nail on the head.

    262. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT (7.41) –

      Hear hear.

      A lot of us have given up hope of seeing it happen, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take turns to demand it.

      Feels like we are in very dangerous times now, esp when we see the increasing numbers of incidents where cops just get laid into unarmed citizens. Seems to be happening everywhere. As previously discussed here, the days of large, happy, positive Yes gatherings are surely over. Doesn’t mean we can’t get together again, aye, but it won’t ever be the same.

      It’s good that we have so much footage of those great marches and ‘socials’. At least we can enjoy the memories.

      🙁

    263. Ruby says:

      Mia says:
      30 August, 2021 at 7:36 pm

      My gut tells me that this is a distraction because there might be something in those accounts they do not want people to look into in detail.

      Reply

      I don’t think these two ‘wonderfarts’ could organise anything that sophisticated. I think they want to make money & a name for themselves. I doubt it’ll be as Pulitzer prize winning journalists!

      Could it be what’s in the pipeline is a book from a serious Pulitzer prize winning journalist and these two ‘wonderfarts’ wanted to get in on the act before there drivel was exposed.

    264. Sheepshagger says:

      Is that Dani Garavelli bent over?

    265. J.o.e says:

      Just want to ask –

      Has nobody got anything to say about the fact that whether it is in Australia, Europe or the US or anywhere – the governments pushing for constant immigration along with hallowed principles of diversity and inclusion are the same ones taking away womens rights in the name of the hallowed principles diversity and inclusion?

      Even the arguments against detractors are the same – denial of observable nature, call ‘bigot’ to everything.

      Is there not even a slight niggle of discomfort in the backs of minds here?

      The only reason I can see for the willful blindness on this is that basically the people the righteous liberal left have constantly pointed the finger at and held up as the ultimate evil were actually completely correct – while the ever-so-moral liberal left have been railroaded into supporting every corporate anti-nationalist agenda there is while things go from bad to worse.

      It must hurt. But get over it and open your eyes. Our next generations cannot be let down by a bunch of old cunts who simply won’t stare reality in the face.

      The SNP were obviously corrupt and lying. You supported them anyway

      The trans rights stuff was happening in other places before it came here but still it took you by surprise.

      The hate speech stuff was stewing in the background for a while in other places and again it took you by surprise.

      Mass immigration is being used as a means to limit political cohesion in our countries and put our people under pressure and you cannot even bring yourself to see the hypocrisy in our governments housing, paying for, setting up with jobs and generally GROOMING the people they bring here while we still have food banks, poverty, lack of opportunity and the general side effects of the covid measures.

      No actual nationalist would be quiet about this.

      Read that last sentence again.

      Really.

    266. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ruby 6.51 pm

      Thanks for your input. I’ll give it all the consideration it merits. Nobody is forcing you to read it. Of course, if you have anything constructive to add rather than just throw rocks from the sidelines like petulant adolescent go right ahead.

      As for Salmond’s story, good for him. I hope he sues and bankrupts the odious individuals involved.

      Happy now?

    267. Mia says:

      “I don’t think these two ‘wonderfarts’ could organise anything that sophisticated”

      Those two wonderfarts, the same as the wonderfarts in Nicola sturgeon’s circle and in the COPFS do not need to organise anything. They are just cogs in a machine well oiled by the British state which only turn when they are instructed to.

      Nowadays there is not even need to write anything. A ghost writer can do that on demand for a fee. The only thing required is for two well known “editors” to give their names to “the work” in order to afford it “credibility” and an excuse to publish it in the newspaper.

    268. Andy Ellis says:

      @James Che 7.03 pm

      And still you come up empty. Show us the way it’ll happen James. No more deflection, no more “castles in Spain” as our French cousins say. Stop deflecting and tell us your practical, real world political route from where we are now to announcing Scottish independence on the floor of Holyrood.

      It’s just bluster and magical thinking on your part. Anyone calling you out on your unreason gets labelled a unionist, or not a true independence supporter. Same goes for other clapping seals like Mia: no actual coherent argument or responses to the point, just wishful thinking and half baked assertion. It’s not convincing anyone.

    269. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      30 August, 2021 at 8:07 pm

      Happy now?

      Reply

      I’ve been happy all day you on the other hand don’t seem to have had a moment of happiness.

      Perhaps the difference between you and I is that I would rather be happy than be right!

    270. Andy Ellis says:

      @Ruby 8.24 pm

      If ignorance is bliss you appear to be in a constant state of orgasm. 🙂

      Stun us wi’ another!

    271. Dan says:

      Mind that time you naively bought into the hype and “invested” in a Betamix video recorder…

      Then you were suckered into buying Digital Audio Tape as the new thang.

      Then you “wised up” and spent ages copying all your stuff onto 3.5 inch floppy discs…

      Then you got burnt after burning all your floppy discs on CDRs…

      Then you bought a diesel car because they were supposedly “the future”…

      Grim news ahead as electric car battery production set to impact on quinoa supply chain…
      This is going to be an utter headfuck for vegan ecowarriors! 🙂

      https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/06/1067272

      Some may notice parallels with the sugar industry with regard to who economically benefits the most in these business ventures.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/08/sugar/

    272. I just hope the Alba party is on the watch out for `Entryism`

      `Entryism is a political strategy in which a state encourages its supporters to join another organization in an attempt to expand influence and domination for their own ideas and program.`

    273. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @J.o.e. (8.07) –

      I would have something to say about it all, but it’s difficult to get into it without having, at some point, to mention The Frankfurt School, which then leads to instant fingering (which, of course, was a vital component of the original diabolical idea, if I understand it correctly.)

      Right now I’m keeping the heid down and praying that my ‘jagged’ loved ones make it from one week to the next.

      Grappling with 77ers here isn’t the fun it used to be.

      So it goes!

      😉

    274. John Main says:

      @Andy Ellis 2:27 PM

      Thanks for your response.

      Heard the one about the bloke who jumped off the 100-storey building? As he passed the second floor on his way down he was heard to say “That’s 98 floors and not a scratch – what’s all the fuss about?”

      As you say, you don’t care what the percentage of foreigners is in Scotland, although no doubt, if I accused you of wanting it to be 100%, or 50%, you would cry foul. But the reality is that your belief is faith-based, not reasoned, so because of that, you can’t countenance putting a number on it, ever.

      You don’t believe the predictions of disaster because your imagination is not up to the task. Anybody can look just across the border and find regions where the percentage of foreigners within the population is approaching 50%. But you are confident that could never happen here, but even if it did, what’s the beef? Move along folks, nothing to see here.

      In a way you could be right, though. The entire idea of Scottish Independence will become irrelevant as the Scots disappear beneath the tides of history like their semi-mythical antecedents, the Picts. Perhaps it already has, and this is one of the last bastions of the Deniers, moon-howling against historical, political and economic forces they can’t even begin to comprehend.

    275. Andy Ellis says:

      @John Main 9.50 pm

      Ach John, it’s just the same old guff retreaded. There’s a direct line from signs in windows saying people of colour, the Irish and dogs weren’t welcome, to Enoch’s “Rivers of Blood” speech to the nativist exclusivism of the less savoury wing of the nationalist movement.

      We’ve had tub thumping populists doing their best Cassandra acts about being swamped for as long as I can remember. It’s beyond depressing to see hateful, bigoted guff of that type being regurgitated in WoS comments.

      Rev Stu is probably right to put this place out of its misery. It’s rapidly becoming a sewer.

    276. Alf Baird says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @ 7:41 pm

      “It’s time for Scottish justice to take aim at those who think they are above the law.”

      “Justice” is perhaps a forlorn hope under colonialism so long as what George Osborne calls the ‘arms’ of the British State are still holding Scotland tight, that is Crown (COPFS+Police) and Civil Service.

      Postcolonial theory (Memmi) refers here to a situation whereby “the astonishing mental attitude called “paternalistic” comes into play. A paternalist is one who wants to stretch racism and inequality farther (and in which) the colonized have no rights. Having founded this new moral order where he is by definition master and innocent, the colonialist would at last have given himself absolution. It is still essential that this order not be questioned by others, and especially not by the colonized.”

      In other words, folk shoudna expeck ony ‘true justice’ til efter independence, an anely efter thon mankit deceitfu unionist slump rinnin Scotlan is weel dicht oot!

    277. Hugh Jarse says:

      What GB said.

      Language is what frames the Overton window, and keeps it closed.

      Whatever Unionist, i am assuming that it was one, who introduced ‘Blood and soil’ into the indy zeitgeist deserves a knighthood, and garter!.

      Linking to the Nazi aberration was pure genius.

      Let Mr Ellis howl and snarl away, it’s not up to him.

    278. Hatuey says:

      Joe, is it at all possible for you to discuss anything without tying it in some way to your racist views on immigration? Even a little bit?

      As it happens, it’s a subject I studied in some detail around 20 years ago. Respected economic historians have discovered that the impact of mass immigration on the economics of receiving countries has been entirely positive. Some even argue that every economic boom in history depended on an influx of migrant labour.

      In terms of politics, when you consider the impact of European imperialism and the consequentially stunted economic development of places like Africa, India, China, and South America, to name just a few, not to mention the moral issues raised by stuff like the slave trade and the wholesale violence of “the west” towards non-Europeans generally, it would be hypocritical and immoral in the extreme for us to even consider locking immigrants out.

      Don’t you know where all the wealth in countries like ours came from? I’ll give you a clue — it had absolutely fuck all to do with the inventiveness of useless “entitled” cunts like you. All those fancy buildings in places like Glasgow and Edinburgh owe their very existence to the brutal exploitation of peasants around the world.

      The only real advantage the west had, when you boil down all the crap people say, was that we were more unscrupulous than the rest when it came to slaughtering people. That’s it.

    279. Dan says:

      Hey Andy, yer vaccinated aye? Then ya ken you’re safe and can go ootside noo instead of “winning debates” with simpleton roaster natavists aw day on what you class as a shite site on t’internet.
      Fuck’s sakes man, talk about inefficient and wasteful use of yer superior intellect and wordly knowledge on all things.

      You recently returned to Scotchland and now live in Auld Reekie, a toon that voted No in 2014 but also wanted to stay in the EU. Dats totes fertile ground for a geezer of your impressive credentials tae get oot on yer soapbox in amongst the punters (mask up if you must in case there are some unvaccinated scum aboot) and convert folk to YES using best international democratic practice, because that is extremely important for recognition. Obviously jist ignore and gloss over that same best international practice dat’s also pushing a load of utter shite regarding genderwoowoo…
      Chop chop laddie, us pathetic burnt oot auld useless amoebas swimming roon in oor oan shit huv been doing it aw wrang, but thankfully the saviour of Scotland has returned tae show us jist how it’s tae be done.

      Tae finish, I can’t help but notice a certain irony and point oot that yer becoming a bit Cameron B Brodie’esque with yer overposting.

    280. Col.Blimp IV says:

      @J.o.e. (8.07)

      I fear the games a bogey. The middle class left are oblivious to the fact that that the Global Capitalists are writing their script for them and of the fact that they have helped create a world where xenophobic edjits like Trump and Farage have more appeal to the working class than they have. If the SNP doesn’t get a wokectomy and a reality transplant soon, We will have nothing but the post-independence civil war, to look forward to.

    281. robert graham says:

      After midnight so here he is

      The number one threat on the USA terrorism watch list is not from the Taliban in Afghanistan its from Americans who either question any government dictat on the wonderful clot shot so people who don’t take this chemical are deemed Terrorists

      I have followed the news on most channels over the last days a total news blackout has been imposed on reporting demonstrations every major city in Europe has seen thousands of people opposing this chemical and the associated passport and not one reference has been made not fkn one

    282. Hatuey says:

      robert graham, where’s your evidence of thousands? Someone on here posted a video recently, supposedly showing mass demonstrations against covid-related stuff in Australia. I watched it carefully; there was about 200 people at most.

      So, show us the evidence. In order for such demo’s to be significant in countries of many millions, I’d expect to see at least 500 thousand people take part.

      So where are they?

    283. wull says:

      Took a look at the BBC website, and hit upon story entitled: Scottish Green co-leaders given ministerial roles: Scottish Green Co-leaders Given Ministerial Roles

      Take a look at the picture underneath it. Picture, that is, of the Great Leader and her two brand-new Side-Kicks. More choreography. What choreography. And what a salute. Right-handed, to boot.

      All three with their right arms raised.

      In solemn (and brazen) salute.

      What kind of signal is this supposed to be? And to whom? Where are we all heading? Please take a look at that (oh-so-triumphant) picture (on BBC Scotland)!

      I posted an overlong comment on the choreography of another picture a few days ago, also of the same threesome. The Chandelier-crowned Nicola, with her twa faithful eedjits by her sides. Each of them dangling ‘one leg in’, no doubt in order to shake it all about…

      These comments on that previous picture no doubt bored everyone, who no doubt scrolled ever-so-wisely past them, at top speed…

      So, I will try (unsuccessfully, you will tell me) not to bore you again this time. (In any case, it’s your own choice if you choose to be bored witless – just use some sense, and scroll straight past…)

      But let me allow myself to point the BBC picture in front of the door of (I think) Bute House, with their right arms raised in salute, did make me think of another gentlemen from the mid-20th Century.

      No longer ‘Il Duce’, which is masculine, but maybe the feminine form (with apolgies for being so binary and common-sensical) – Is that ‘La Duchessa’… in the middle of the picture?

      Who sets up these stage-sets? For these staged events? (Sorry, photo-ops…)

      ‘Il Duce’ apparently means not only ‘The Leader’ but, literally, ‘The Duke’! (With apologies to John Wayne: no resemblance intended – ‘Benito’ would hardly have been an appropriate forename for someone whose real surname, I believe, was Morrison!). When the Leader’s a Wumman, it stands to reason she must be a ‘Duchessa’!

      Anyway, have a look at our very own La Duchessa, on the doorstep of Bute House (if I have identified that door correctly). With the two side-licks, each of the three trying to out-beam the other.

      Bute House might not be quite the same thing as the balcony of Benito’s Palazzo in the Piazza Venezia in the centre of Rome, but all the same… Must make do with what we have got… Too wee, too poor, not big enough to be grandiose, and all that, but oor ain wee Greenified threesome can still be something beautiful in the (dreich auld) Athens of the North!

      Then another thought came to mind…

      If that is really a Duchessa, there in the middle of the BBC’s picture, is she about to usurp one of the oldest and certainly one of the wealthiest, if not THE wealthiest (maybe she always fancied a wee bit of extra dosh) aristocratic titles in Europe? Causing maximum political chaos and confusion in the process … More mayhem from the Bute House Beauty Parlour Queen…

      You got it (shift attention from Italy to Spain)…

      That is, will our Right-Hand-Raising-Leader now declare herself the real Duchess of Alba?! Meaning ‘Queen of Scots’.

      We always thought she had a Plan B. Maybe, with her foresight, that was it … In the light of later events, what a fantastic glimpse she had of the future. What a nagnificent – correction, magnificent – way to muddy the political waters.

      Moreover, once and for always… For ever!

      ‘What’s that AS chap going to do with his ALBA, once I self-declare as that same ALBA’s Duchess? That’ll surely poison his wells! And for good, this time!’

      ‘And wee Pat and Big Lorna will be there in the wings to cheer me on.’ For every Great Leader needs pansy-wee and puffed-up-big cheerers to boost up his/her/its evr-flagging ego. Empty-headed vessels spewing out mindless support ad infinitum. Just see how please-with-themselves they look in that picture. And her too.

      And by the way, (don’t you forget it!) the real surname of the real Alba family, including its most famous ‘Duchess of Alba’, is Fitz-Jacobo Stuart…

      That’s right: the Stuart connection meant that the real Duchess of Alba had a very real – indeed (many say) the best – claim to the Scottish throne. (Even though the ‘Fitz’ before a surname usually indicates a certain – what shall we call it? – illegitimacy… (But we’ll just ignore that little inconvenience. Call in the carpet-sweeper to push it underfoot!).

      Just imagine if that – the erstwhile very starry Duchess of Alba – was the real role model for our very own ‘La Duchessa’! Or at least the point to which all her hopes and fantasies secretly aspired…

      Why make the Sky the Limit, if you can do still better, and go even further?

      And, in 2011 (or thereabouts), the real Duchess of Alba ever-so-generously gave away ALL her enormous wealth to her children, so that they would let her marry her third husband, 24 years her junior. He was a commoner – a mere civil servant – who promised not to claim anything if she predeceased him.

      (Yet most still thought he was after one thing only, and it wasn’t love – unless you include in that category ‘the love of money.’)

      Hence, she eventually died in poverty (with a mere 5 billion to her name, though some estimate the sum total was actually as meagre as only 2.4 … billion). While apparently giving all of it to her children, she had in fact kept complete control of the whole lot of it. During her lifetime, that is.

      But the kids got the lot of it in the end. And as for that 24-years younger, merely bureaucratic, ex-civil servant, commoner climbing-up-the-ladder husband of hers – Gogolo, or whatever his name was… Well, he got his just deserts, very precisely. That is, he gote, precisely NOTHING!

      So sorry about that, Peter What’s-yer-Name… You may have married a Duchess, but rest assured, she’ll almost certainly leave you with… NOTHING. Precisely, and absolutely, nothing.

      Get used to that number. That same Big Zero which, maybe, just maybe, she uses as her private nickname for you. A kind of code-name for Pete the Magic Dragon… Remember: that cuddly dragon that ended up thrown in the cupboard, forgotten altogether, once his sell-by date was up… Watch out Pete: get what you can, while you can.

      And to put it all in perspective, what’s a lousy 600,000 compared to 5 billion? Or even 2.4 billion?

      Must make you feel a bit small… No?

      Anyway, enough drivel for one night. But do have a look at that story on the BBC, and in particular at the picture under the headline. And see what you make of it.

      Maybe you won’t find it as spooky as I do. But maybe you will…

    284. twathater says:

      @ Dan 11.26pm Now,Now Dan you know Andy cannot go out and speak to the peepul about indy he is liable to meet some nativists and have to explain to them how you can’t edumacate pork , and how it is against the great civic nationalism to be a patriot , maybe he could get his pals SD and hatuey to man a stall with him and tell everyone how great the union is and us subsidised Scots are just racists and ungrateful

    285. Willie says:

      The Picts were assimilated, replaced by the Gaels or Scotti ( or Scots as they became known)And the Scots are now being assimilated and replaced by English.

      The Plantation of Scotland, like the Plantation of Ulster is in the 2020s now well underway and accelerating in pace. Ethnocultural and political engineering, deliberately focussed to destroy a nation.

      It’s an insidious war from a large aggressive neighbour. And make no mistake our neighbour is ruthless. Read Frank Kitson – Gangs and Counter Gangs or Low Intensity Operations. Read how he recommends using the law of the land to jail political opponents. Read how he recommends controlling the media or creating one’s own media. Read how the military security apparatus infiltrate and watch everything from community groups to trade unions to political parties, academic institutions.

      But there’s more as Prof Baird’s book meticulously sets out. Scotland is under attack on many many fronts.
      ,

    286. Roger says:

      Jason Michael (@Jeggit) has become a complete and utter prick

    287. thomas says:

      @ Hatuey 11.09 pm

      You dont half talk some rubbish on here. Not to mention sounding like some “new labour ” apologist.

      Mass uncontrolled immigration has never had a positive impact on any country in history , wether in terms of social cohesion ,or economics.

      The economic argument was new labour propaganda to justify tony blair and his cronies sucking up to big business after they opened the doors in 2004.

      The claims of a fiscal benefit for the entire uk was a nonsense . Not only was it cherry picked selective figures to show a postitive benefit , but as was later discovered like much of new labours sleight of hand , it didnt take into account long term impacts like housing costs , school places congestion , infrastructure and many other issues that England especially is now facing.

      In terms of scottish history , we already have records of the damage mass immigration caused to the native community in the 12th to 14th century. Where an incoming elite and their retainers massivley changed the language and culture of our nation , and divided the nation into two cultural regions divided by the highland line , and then who eventually took us into union with england.

      The evidence is already there.

      The comments section on here isnt the palce to go into what is a massively complex issue , but mass immigration doesnt benefit the poorest of any nation , mainly the rich and big business.

      On top of that , we have government roasters going on about archie in his 4 by 4 in Bearsden being taxed to the hilt to sort climat change out whilst they ignore the elephant in the room that is massive human over population that is damaging every aspect of the planet we live in.

      It took tens of thousands of years for humanity to reach 1 billion people by 1900 , and in 121 years since then we are approaching 9 billion.

      Governments support mass immigration and population growth as they practice the ever expanding ponzi scheme of demograhpic growth as an increasing working age generation has to pay for the previous increasing pensioner age.

      Eventulally this crazy system will run out of road.

      There is no sensible discussion of this topic. Government supproting roasters like you will use every trick in the book to shout common sense down , but if in doubt and all else fails , you can always shout racist.

      We are seeing the mass damage mass economic migration has caused in our neighbours south of the border , and tony blair and new labour caused much of it. As stuart campbell wrote , new labour and tony blair are very much responsible for the rise of ukip , and brexit can be laid at that mans door.

    288. Breeks says:

      Yeayyy! Scottish Independence is back on top of the agenda!

      https://archive.is/RGeyH

      Angus Robertson is going to empty Edinburgh’s dustbins himself, maybe even using Mike Russell’s illustrious horse box, followed by a Gay Pride procession of Trans Taliban loonies marching through Catholic areas and primary schools, ejecting ordinary gay people from their own march and beating them up for heresy and thought-hate-jigsaw-crime-word-salad.

      Relax Scotland, the Independence Campaign is saved!

      Scotland isn’t a Nation, it’s a fkg theme park dedicated to Kafka. Take a bow Sturgeon.

      Oh, and do I have to keep telling you? You need to be more careful locking the medicine cabinet because PayPal Paul has been snorting the hallucinogenics again. https://archive.is/yqhDK

      I fucking despair.

      Sturgeon wants a new name for the SNP. How about Nicola’s Kinky Venal Diciples?

      “Mum, mum, wake up. The NKVD’s at the door because I accidentally denounced you as a transphobe last week, because I’m only four years old and didn’t know what I was saying.”

      [Note to Security: We need verification whether Robertson is actually emptying dustbins or just sifting through Joanna Cherry’s.]

    289. Ottomanboi says:

      Scotland the wee, the green, the wimp.
      https://archive.ph/PD5VE
      Chemical Nici will be unveiling, something or other.
      The tease!.
      Elsewhere in the real universe, Taliban reclaim Kabul airport proclaiming independent Afghanistan…..

    290. Marion Millar in Glasgow Sheriff Court today,

      for the crime of retweeting a picture of woman`s suffragette ribbons tied to a fence,

      one would hope that sanity prevails and this case is laughed out of court for its absurdity,

      but this is the unpredictable and quite mad Scottish judiciary so anything could happen.

    291. Ruby says:

      Andy Ellis says:
      30 August, 2021 at 10:03 pm
      @John Main 9.50 pm

      Ach John, it’s just the same old guff retreaded. There’s a direct line from signs in windows saying people of colour, the Irish and dogs weren’t welcome, to Enoch’s “Rivers of Blood” speech to the nativist exclusivism of the less savoury wing of the nationalist movement.

      Reply

      If you weren’t someone who just has to be ‘right’ all the time with absolutely no room for other people’s opinion then you might wonder why there were ‘No Irish’ ‘No Blacks’ signs. There must have been a reason.

      I don’t think that reason has gone away hence the need for the PC Brigade, the hate crime bill etc.

      It seems they slipped up with Brexit.

      I believe everyone is ‘racist’ and no matter how much you dictate to people that isn’t going to change.

      It’s way past time for politicians to listen to people. There is absolutely nothing sinister in wanting your life style to stay the same.

      All the immigrants who come to this country want that too. Although they are in a different country they don’t want anything to change hence the different communities, the ‘Chinese, Polish, Indian shops, the Mosques, Sikhs temples, women wearing the hijab etc the Royal Mile being transformed into the ‘Kasbah, the arranged marriages, honour killings, female genital mutilation etc.

    292. Ruby says:

      Scot Finlayson says:
      31 August, 2021 at 9:09 am
      Marion Millar in Glasgow Sheriff Court today,

      for the crime of retweeting a picture of woman`s suffragette ribbons tied to a fence,

      Reply
      The result of this trial will be very interesting.

      It’s seems to be all about control and I can’t help seeing similarities between this case and the issue of immigration.

    293. Hatuey says:

      Thomas at 7.30 tells me I’m wrong but this isn’t the place to explain why (as it’s too complicated), then devotes about 8 yards to his dazzlingly original theory on there being too many people in the world.

      People who moan about over-population never seem willing to contemplate that they are part of the problem, usually a big part since the carbon footprint of the average westerner is relatively huge compared to that of the average third-world peasant.

      On the positive impact of migrant labour, see Charles P. Kindelberger’s landmark study ‘Europe’s Postwar Growth’ – https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.4159/harvard.9780674498181/html

      Kindelberger was writing about this stuff long before New Labour, btw. Quite clearly you have no idea what you’re talking about.

    294. If Humza and She/Her get their way Marion will be convicted of a Hate Crime just to set a precedent or stamp an authority boot,

      obviously State and Judiciary are separate so there will be no colluding no siree no colluding whatsoever.

    295. Robert Hughes says:

      ” All the immigrants who come to this country want that too. Although they are in a different country they don’t want anything to change hence the different communities, the ‘Chinese, Polish, Indian shops, the Mosques, Sikhs temples, women wearing the hijab etc the Royal Mile being transformed into the ‘Kasbah, the arranged marriages, honour killings, female genital mutilation etc.”

      Excellent point Ruby .

      Every immigrant nationality is encouraged to express their cultural peculiarities in Scotland , except , well , Scots , unless said Scots conform to the new TaliGreen Re ( oops ! ) Progressive Gender Diktats issuing from the Holyrood Madrasah .

      Laughable .

      Meanwhile Angus ” My Old Man Once Exchanged A Word With A Dustman ” Robertson aims to achieve Independence via garbage collection efficiency .

      Hilarious . Or would be if these clowns were not the supposed agents of our liberation

    296. Breeks says:

      Good Luck today, Marion Millar and Joanna Cherry.

      It’s not just Marion Millar on trial, it’s Scotland’s Legal System.

    297. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “Marion Millar in Glasgow Sheriff Court today, for the crime of retweeting a picture of woman`s suffragette ribbons tied to a fence”

      No that’s the excuse used to get Marion in front of a judge, just as “jigsaw id was the excuse to get Craig Murray in front of a judge for daring to try and legally lift the anonymity of specific accusers shown in court to give false testimony against Salmond.

      I believe it is reported that Marion’s real crime was being caught on video saying “women won’t wheesht” to Nicola Sturgeon during the Holyrood election campaign.

      That’s why she is in court, another malicious, politically motivated prosecution on behalf of a petty and vindictive state!

    298. Fred says:

      robert graham says:
      “thousands of people opposing this chemical and the associated passport and not one reference has been made”

      Correct. Reuters (who i generally wouldn’t trust, especially their fact checking) – but who are the main source for most international news, published this and not one outlet of the MSM chose to go with it.
      As a Philhelline i read the Greek newspapers regularly – and even they suppressed it.

      https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/greek-police-clash-with-anti-vaccine-protesters-athens-2021-08-29/

      The RT report below, and the videos are quite disturbing. In one, the police launch tear gas at the crowd – many consisting of families – who then panic. You can hear a man shouting in Greek for the crowd to slow down as there are children in there who are being crushed.

      https://www.rt.com/news/533410-greece-protest-vaccine-mandate/

    299. James Che. says:

      Breeks

      Sorry to say I don’t think it is Scotland’s legal system any more.
      I think it’s been privatised.

    300. Stoker says:

      Today sees a very shameful event taking place in Scottish Courts where a woman is being charged with a “hate crime”. What she actually did was posted a picture of suffragette ribbons tied to a chainlink fence.

      Meanwhile, just 2 days previously, the same police force who arrested that woman and pressed charges on her were seen to actively participate in a disgraceful display of anti-Irish racism on the streets of Glasgow’s city centre. Police Scotland gave the 100 or so offenders their very own personal escort through the streets, as they’ve done on other recent occasions.

      Police Scotland had no intentions of pursuing this *REAL* hate crime event until public pressure ensured they had to. Police Scotland, despite 10 or so of their own officers facilitating this mass hate crime event, then put out a plea for witnesses.

      This very same inept police force, several days prior to this, sent 5 officers to remove a woman from an Edinburgh pub because she was wearing a T-shirt that promoted the defence of women’s rights and one member of staff took offence at it.

      THIS is Stasi Sturgeon’s Scotland, a Scotland where innocent folk are framed for rape and real hate crimes go unpunished whilst Stasi Sturgeon fails to even condemn proven hate attacks on a certain female member of the SNP or to even issue a condemnation of the events on Sunday facilitated by, yet again, Police Scotland.

      Just about everybody who is anybody have condemned Sunday’s events and Police Scotland’s involvement in said events, everybody that is except Stasi Sturgeon. Mind you, she was conveniently “self-isolating”, self-isolating with the Ruth Davidson strain it would appear. Otherwise known as the MIA strain (Missing In Action). Did she know the furory against Salmond was going to break over the weekend? Of course she did!

    301. Dorothy Devine says:

      Stoker , bang on!

    302. thomas says:

      @ Hatuey 9.39 am

      Feck off Hatuey you sneering self entitled middle class new labour loving unionist prick.

      I will never stop supporting scotland its people language and culture. If you globalists got your way , you would do away with the inconvenience of languages culture and nations , and have us as part of a mono culture of worker bots caged like battery hens in big cities with the single purpose in life as to provide finance for the global elite , before we are cast on the scrap heap when we get too old , as unproductive inconveniences.

      We will have the debate about mass uncontrolled immigration , but now is not the time . It would only be a distrction we could do without.

      All i will say is have you sneering globalists in new labour learned nothing over the last 11 years you have been out of power?

      A few links on the negative side of mass uncontrolled new labour type immigration…

      https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/economics

      Despite many misleading claims to the contrary, the research consensus is that immigration overall has been and continues to be a significant annual fiscal cost for the UK. A paper published by the government in 2018 estimated that the immigrant population in the UK added £4.3 billion to the UK’s fiscal deficit in 2016/17.

      You keep looking down your nose at the “peasant ill educated scottish working class” as you think of us , and we will keep quietly and efficiently going to the ballot box and voting against you new labour types and your globalist pish.

    303. robert graham says:

      hatuey

      Go fk yourself

      Yer a fkn unionist plant and Stooge

      This is your job isn’t it and the plan is to cause as much disruption as possible

    304. holymacmoses says:

      Allowing the individual to self-identify , is allowing a to create a universal fact that everyone else must agree with.
      Can an individual ‘opinion’ or ‘feeling’ ever be a classed as a fact?
      Indeed can it ever BE a provable fact?

      Can personal feelings be made legal facts in a court of law?

    305. holymacmoses says:

      The post above should read:

      Allowing the individual to self-identify , is allowing a person to create a universal fact that everyone else must agree with.
      Can an individual ‘opinion’ or ‘feeling’ ever be a classed as a fact?
      Indeed can it ever BE a provable fact?

      Can personal feelings be made legal facts in a court of law?



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