On holiday with foreigners
It’s amazing what a trip away can do: refresh, educate, put a new slant on an old debate. I was in the US recently. The first thing I learned was before departure, and I pass it on as a tip: if you’re going to the US, fly from Dublin, not a UK airport. Apart from being about half the price – presumably because they have control over their airport taxes, so can adjust them to compete with Heathrow – it makes life far easier.
When I last flew to the US from a UK airport, long before 9/11, we were held in a bleak corridor without any amenities for well over an hour before being processed through immigration, where we were interrogated about the purpose of our visit, what address we were staying at, and where we were going exactly. It put me off re-visiting the States for a long time.
Flying from Dublin is a different experience.
There, US immigration is processed at the Dublin end. You pass through the usual security, customs, scanners and the like. After that you hit the US immigration desk, where they take a look at your passport, check your Visa and flight authorisation and take your fingerprints. All told it took less than a minute, with a noticeable lack of interrogation. When our plane landed it was treated as an internal flight, and we embarked without even showing a passport.
Somehow, wee “separatist” Ireland appears to have a better relationship with the US than the UK does, despite the “special relationship”. (All this as well as being far more integrated into the EU, with greater representation, the ability to negotiate directly on their own behalf there, and being president of the EU council this year, not to mention special arrangements with the UK for travel and residence.)
The first lesson in the US came on a winery tour. Of course, we learned about winemaking, how vital the age of vines is, the difference between hand-picked and machine-harvested (you get leaves, stalks and sometimes even birds in machine harvested grapes. But it’s OK, apparently, as they all get separated out in the machinery from the actual wine. In the case of “birds” this doesn’t make me feel any better for some reason, especially with red wine).
But I digress. The more illuminating lesson for now was shipping rules. I wasn’t surprised to find none of the wineries could ship to Scotland, and I wasn’t able to join their wine clubs. More surprising was that they also couldn’t ship – and you couldn’t join their wine club – if you lived in certain US states, eg Pennsylvania and Utah.
This barrier to trade is because states have control over their own laws and taxes, and the ability to put up such barriers. So for example, Utah has strict alcohol laws which include not being able to buy certain drinks except at state-run stores, and drinks having to be labelled correctly.
Unionists would point to the US as an example of unions bringing entirely free trade with no barriers. But the fact is, the reason there are few trade barriers within the US (and within other unions like the EU) is that mostly there’s no desire among voters, legislators and – especially – businesses for creating them.
This would be no different with the new British Isles if Scotland was to become independent. However trade barriers such as that with wine clubs, do exist, even within the country-union of the US, because states within the US have great enough powers and freedoms to legislate for them if they so choose.
Whether, in the case of wine clubs, that’s a good thing is no doubt a hot subject for debate among wine-lovers in Utah. But the principle of states being able to legislate to be different, to put up barriers to certain trade if that’s what voters there want, overrides both free trade and the desire for the entire country to be one homogenous nation under Washington.
In the US, power resides firstly with the people, then with the state. The state mandates the federal government to act for it, but only in areas of national interest. States can craft policies for their own areas and population. The federal government provide overarching services such as defence as well as often mandating minimum standards or providing funding for safety nets services such as Medicare and other top-up programmes.
The Labour school of “socialism” which states if someone in Manchester is suffering from poor policy made in London, then so too must people in Glasgow, doesn’t hold in the US. There, states set welfare policy and these differ from state to state, with the federal government sometimes setting minimum levels, or providing specific help, for example FEMA to help with disasters and other federal sponsored aid programmes.
Again, this leads to some outcomes that could be seen as undesirable. San Francisco became a magnet for homeless people and those with mental health issues due to cash handout programmes for the homeless. It’s also currently suing Nevada for putting mentally ill patients on buses to California to seek healthcare there.
Overall then, individual states in the US have many more powers than Scotland currently does, including being able to retain their own constitution. Their powers include fiscal powers (tax, spending and borrowing) and welfare.
In these respects the US, one country, actually sits somewhere in between the EU – a collection of nation states in a union which all retain their own sovereignty – and the UK. The UK is a massively over-centralised state, with all powers residing in London. This is the key difference between devolution and the federated nature of countries such as the US, Germany and Switzerland: devolved powers are “gifted” from the centre, which can recall any of them, or abolish the parliament at any time. The federalism of the US means states retain their powers with guaranteed autonomy.
Many states even include devolved districts within them, electing their own parliaments. Abolishing Holyrood is a policy advocated by UKIP and many Tories, with even some in Labour openly voicing a desire for devolution to “enter a different phase” in order to unify policy across the UK. The UK allows its devolved regions far less powers and autonomy than a US state, a Swiss canton or a German Bundesland.
While in the US I had some interesting conversations with fellow travellers about Scotland, and our independence referendum. One question I was asked by a bemused American was, “But Scotland already is a country, isn’t it?”
When I explained to him that yes, technically Scotland is a country, but we have less powers over our own taxes, welfare and economy than a US state or Canadian province does, he seemed to understand.
The real question for me with the referendum is just that: do you believe Scotland is a country? If so, why should it be run from the capital city of another country which allows it less autonomy and sovereignty than other countries allow their regions?
Why should we accept sovereignty lying at Westminster, even right down to that ultimate power to remove devolution from us at its whim? If US states wouldn’t for a moment countenance ceding their autonomy to Washington (and they wouldn’t), why have we allowed such a situation to stand here for 300 years?
And why are we subjected to such hateful abuse for making a polite, peaceful and democratic case for our country to have the kind of powers others take for granted?
“The Labour school of “socialism” which states if someone in Manchester is suffering from poor policy made in London, then so too must people in Glasgow”.
Lamont does go for this thinking, and of course the reciprocal should be applied. Now that one in three households in Glasgow have no one employed it follows that households in Manchester etc should have the same conditions imposed.
Interesting article thanks, I’m assuming you were travelling on a British passport, just checking if I fancy flying out of Dublin!
On the differences imposed by the various US states I’d an interesting experience, recently, with my own little business. I was speaking to the people in control of imports in Orgeon and for them, even although, my product is Made in Scotland, they deemed the raw material had to be cited as the origin. In New York and New Jersey they take a different view, Made in Scotland would be okay.
As you say very different regimes over the US.
Why should we accept sovereignty lying at Westminster, even right down to that ultimate power to remove devolution from us at its whim?
We shouldn’t. It seems to be a symptom low self esteem on a national scale.
In the event of a Yes vote we need to ensure this situation can never arise again. A written constitution that puts the sovereignty of the Scottish parliament beyond the reach of any group of politicians. Sure, the politicians can enter Scotland into political unions, alliances, etc but anything that jeopardised the ultimate sovereignty of our elected parliament, and Scotland’s recognition in international law, would be unconstitutional.
As someone who flies between the US and Britain once a year, I wholeheartedly endorse the Dublin/Shannon route rather than flying directly from the UK. The reason it is cheaper is actually an Aer Lingus-specific thing: if you fly to or from the United States, and you connect via Ireland, they don’t charge you for the European leg of your trip, whether that is from London, Glasgow, Berlin or Rome.
This past summer, I flew from Boston to Dublin to London, which cost me $550, while I flew back from Hamburg (where I attended a conference) to Dublin to Boston, costing only $450. The extra cost of flying through the UK IS related to airport tax, which is much higher in Britain than any other EU state. I’m giving $ rather than £ figures because I obviously live in the US and purchased my flights there, but I’m sure there is a significant discrepancy in flights in sterling too.
Ireland, you may not know, also has a much more relaxed visa process with the United States than does Britain. Irish citizens are entitled to enter the US at any time without a visa, like Britons, but their fee is waived AND they are entitled to work, rent property, attend classes etc. where British citizens (such as me…) need to go through a costly and complex visa process to do any one of these things. This means that Boston is FLOODED with Irish students every summer coming to work in the city’s bars, while if I run into British people here they are almost always living in the city for work or university reasons.
As I have commented before.
Two simple questions, answer only with a yes or no.
Do you believe that a country should run its own affairs?
Do you believe that Scotland is a country?
Is it to much to ask that I be governed by politicians that actually live in the same country as I do.
The Labour school of “socialism” = oligarchical collectivism = English socialism
Your airport experience reminds me of a trip I made a couple of years ago to the Netherlands.
Arrival at Schipol Airport was a pleasant slick operation of passport control and into the Arrivals.
We stayed in a town near the Hague, it was a national holiday, people were celebrating with street entertainments eating and drinking. There was no loutishness, it felt safe and happy, the Dutch flag flew everywhere, how I envied them in their pride in their country.
The town was clean, 1oo’s of bicycles, great transport links to the city, and the Hague itself was equally a joy to walk around in.
The KLM jet we flew home in was brand new.
On arrival at Glasgow the air bridge walkway at the terminal juddered and broke down before we could disembark. And that was before we faced UK Border Control…
On topic!
Look at this Britnat dude foreigner baiting! Would you believe he works for the Scotsman :-)!
When he’s not having his rear handed to him by Aussie journos for a complete failure to fact check (from a Scotsman journo? Shurely shome mistake):
https://twitter.com/malcolmconn/status/383018241003896832
He’s making peurile comments about Pat Kane and expressing his love for Johnny Ball:
https://twitter.com/Duncan_Smith/status/381841100203229184
And ranting at another Australian journo for her “bitter anti British obsession”.
https://twitter.com/Duncan_Smith/status/381392328239247361
Based on this innocuous article:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/naomi-watts-given-a-royal-hiding-for-not-being-a-brit/story-fnilxh2s-1226723937387
Apparently “Thursday night is ladies(sic) night” – lucky them! Strange he is keen to point out apostrophe abuse in others (see supra), considering.
He could really use some therapy for his bitter Britnat obsession. Perhaps he has some kind of virus…
Beat that for unionist of the week!
“Ireland, you may not know, also has a much more relaxed visa process with the United States than does Britain. “
Interesting titbit Craig, I didn’t know that. I wonder what the visa process for an independent Scotland and USA would be? We’d be denied entry as virus laden separatists perhaps?
@cath
The real question for me with the referendum is just that: do you believe Scotland is a country? Yes!
If so, why should it be run from the capital city of another country which allows it less autonomy and sovereignty than other countries allow their regions? Over to you Unionists… 😀
If US states wouldn’t for a moment countenance ceding their autonomy to Washington (and they wouldn’t), why have we allowed such a situation to stand here for 300 years?
The Scottish cringe, conditioning, the media, selfish politicians.
And why are we subjected to such hateful abuse for making a polite, peaceful and democratic case for our country to have the kind of powers others take for granted?
We are putting their privileges, careers, and perks on the line and they do not like it one bit. They are scared their time at the trough is over.
@Murray McCallum
We shouldn’t. It seems to be a symptom low self esteem on a national scale.
Sadly the people in Scotland who are doing well out of the Union in Scotland are self confident. They maintain their status by knowingly kneeing before Westminster, and putting their own self interest before the people of Scotland, and their nation itself. These people have done massive, massive damage to the psyche of Scotland. That might sound overblown, but they have helped to produce a ‘can’t do’ attitude here.
O/T
UK government ministers are putting pressure on DWP to amend their letter of clarification, as read out by Alex Salmond confirming that UK pensions would be treated in the same manner after independence, ………. despite that this currently applies to Brits living in Spain or Ireland.
Great article, Cath. Like yourself, I’ve been to the US recently: I go every year to meet friends & family in Arizona and Texas. I’ve alluded to my problems before on the site, but I will say that out of all the airports I’ve used, it’s the UK ones which are the most stressful, particularly Heathrow & Prestwick. Even post-9/11 America is less oppressive, which is rather frightening.
I also talked to a lot of friends there regarding the referendum: ex-pat Scots who emigrated in the 1960s, born-and-bred Americans, Canadians, and a few others from different places. When I explained the basic bullet points (The magic 9.9-9.3-8.4 formula, already separate NHS/law/education, etc), not a single one of them could understand why anyone would vote no. I know, right?
An outside perspective can be useful. Perhaps Scotland’s no-voters need an intervention, maybe from other independent countries. We’ve been in the cave so long, many of us refuse to believe light exists.
Another London Dividend says:
O/TUK government ministers are putting pressure on DWP to amend their letter of clarification, as read out by Alex Salmond confirming that UK pensions would be treated in the same manner after independence, ………. despite that this currently applies to Brits living in Spain or Ireland.
Boy don’t you just love those BritNats?
Their rules and regulations ensure anyone in Spain, Ireland and probably the rest of planet Earth can receive their UK pension no questions asked they suddenly get all uppity when the suggestion is made that those uppity Independent Scots will also be able to receive their UK pension! I mean how dare they, those uppity Scots are getting well above their lowly position……AGAIN!
Best we change all pension rules to ensure that any reference to those uppity Scots is made in terms of denying them, the uppity Scots, any access to their deserved UK pension!
@Abroath 1320
My brother-in-law in Canada and my cousin in Australia both get their UK state pensions with no problem whatsoever. My brother-in-law also gets his occupational pension from the time he worked in the Civil Service in London.
Just how stupid do they think we are? Do they think we have relatives living abroad?
Sorry, meant to say, Do they think we have NO relatives living abroad?
When travellling in the USA a few years ago friendly strangers would ask me,on hearing my accent,if I was Irish.They weren’t disappointed to hear I was Scottish.
Taranaich
That is excellent well done. It reminds me of the British Lions Tour, or the British and Irish Lions tour, of South Africa in 1974. They invented the 99 call based on the 999 call which was to long to shout on the field. This was in response to the violence and intimidation tactics used by the Boks to beat other teams. Basically it meant when you heard the 99 call go out you simply attacked the nearest Bok player. And very effective it was. http://bit.ly/1h5Ne8J
So now all we have to do is to remember these numbers. 99. 93. 84. Resisting the urge to punch the nearest unionist.
Excellent ;o))))))))
Great article, Cath. It’s another reminder of just how ridiculous the little bubble unionists seem to live in is. Why should Scotland have fewer powers than the federal states of countries like Germany and the US? It’s obvious that you just can’t manage a big country as one homogeneous entity, and if you look about, all the successful big countries are either federations or federal-like. Nobody is interested in the UK model of over-centralisation.
Jeannie
“Just how stupid do they think we are?”
Every time I hear a unionist speak on the subject of Scottish independence, that is my immediate thought. I have concluded the only answer can be that they think we are as stupid as they need us to be. It is this patronisation of the Scottish electorate that has done for them. They need Scotland’s voters to be stupid to get them to vote for the union. It is working for us. I see a huge turnout and a massive landslide for Yes.
Christ how much do these people hate us september next year cant come quick enough
Doug Daniel say:
Nobody is interested in the UK model of over-centralisation.
Apart from those with a colonial/authoritarian outlook, perhaps. 🙂
@ HenBroon: To be prepared to stand up and publicly make the statements uttered these past few days by Lamont and Curran you have to be pretty stupid and pretty desperate. And a person with a reasonable feeling of personal self-esteem would refuse to read out the script that Lamont is handed for FM Question Time.
It is to be hoped that Labour supporters are much wiser and not at all desperate, that they will study the case for independence and think for themselves.
The United Kingdom has a considerable problem with militant Islam.Thousands of British intelligence agents are currently deployed to thwart the Jihadis. So it is entirely logical that the American authorities closely monitor travellers originating from the United Kingdom.
Wow, didn’t see that one coming!
And your point is, caller?
Talking of arch Unionists I saw that the Human Rights lawyer chappie wrote a piece in his blog about the march. His disparaging comments were all around the spurious 8,000 figure. (Isn’t he a lawyer? I hope he does a bit more research when he is actually fighting a case.)
I think the most telling thing is not his lack of research but rather that it is obvious he wanted the turn out to be low and he fell on the BBC figure with abandon and wrote his piece without a single “I wonder if this figure is right” thought passing through his head. I wonder if he saw the police tweet later saying it was 20,000? Did he care if he did? I suppose he could always wing it and blame the BBC. The fact remains though, he really, really wanted it to be low so he could write his piece, vent his spleen and do his wee Unionist thing. Human rights? Without truth there are no rights and very little soul either.
Maybe if we didn’t kill quite so many civilians in the Middle East in the UK’s perpetual quest for the days of the ‘Empah’, they wouldn’t need to employ thousands of oxymoronically named British Intelligence agents looking for people radicalised by British stupidity.
@reginald-
‘So it is entirely logical that the American authorities closely monitor travellers originating from the United Kingdom.’
Hey, no shit Spock…
@Doug Daniel
It’s another reminder of just how ridiculous the little bubble unionists seem to live in is. Why should Scotland have fewer powers than the federal states of countries like Germany and the US? It’s obvious that you just can’t manage a big country as one homogeneous entity, and if you look about, all the successful big countries are either federations or federal-like. Nobody is interested in the UK model of over-centralisation.
Once enough people in Scotland recognise what a strange position Scotland has been in, compared to other small European nations, then the rationale for independence becomes crystal clear. The truth is that the status of Scotland for at least a hundred years (perhaps 200) has been very unusual. We had control over law, education, religion under the Union. Now we have a parliament, but this can effectively be removed at the whim of Westminster. In any other small European nation it would be the Unionists’ ideology that would constantly be under attack.
The fact of the matter is that there is no intellectual case for arguing that somehow because Scotland can run its own education system, health service, law etc is should not, or cannot, run its own welfare system, taxation system, and its own natural resources for the benefit of its own people. This is simply irrational, and the Unionists know this fine well, even if they cannot admit it publically. The simple fact is the Unionist politicians are relying on their supporters’ genuine feeling at being British, fear of change, and dislike of individuals, to maintain their careers and privileges. However, the intellectual case against independence just does not hold up.
johann lamont makes a sound intellectual case for the union every time she talks
On a more positive note, good article Cath, thanks. It yet again pricks this incomprehensible bubble of Scotland being unique amongst nations, TW, TP, TS, who will be punished by our betters in Westminster by the imposition of a whole list of nasties: borders, no pound, no pensions, the usual twattery, even if it means cutting off their nose to spite their face. Which, of course, we know won’t happen, and so do they.
Derek Bateman has a decent piece on this, contrasting his and Heifer’s (sic) views on the day after the vote.
Another day another scare:
The comments got very heated, some deleted no wonder!
http://archive.is/FRTfu
@reginald
Hello, what are you talking about exactly?
PS: forgot to say that I finally got the archive.is to work.
Thanks for the hints everyone.
reginald
The UK does indeed have a considerable and long-standing problem with ‘militant Islam’. In a post-WWII context, possibly the earliest commonly known example of this was MI6’s involvement with the CIA and the Muslim Brotherhood, in plotting the assassination of Egypt’s President Nasser. Coincidentally, as with Assad in Syria, Nasser’s government was secular.
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=uk_secret_intelligence_service
In the modern age, slave ships and the practices of the Dutch East India Company are no longer thought acceptable as means of promoting colonial rule. The new modus operandi is through the ‘collectivist’ operation of the banking system (we did bail them out didn’t we), and the criminal activities of our elected representatives and their minions. Any one remember the Bank of Credit and Commerce International? Ultimately closed down for money laundering which had not been prevented or stopped by the City of London, and which was intrinsically wrapped up in the rise of ‘militant Islamic’ terrorism.
““Ireland, you may not know, also has a much more relaxed visa process with the United States than does Britain. ””
That’s interesting. It explains why there were so many young Irish people working over there who’d quite casually say, “oh I’ve moved over here for good” when I asked how long their VISAs were for. For UK people you can really only get over on a working student VISA. Beyond that it’s a very tough and long drawn out process.
OT… lovin’ these Flikr photos on National Collective 🙂
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nationalcollective/9937333836/
Just got to thinking about Reginald’s thousands of agents, then read CameronB’s comment, and it occurred to me, what if these thousands of agents were to be diverted to investigate the activities of the global arseoisie and their use of tax havens, perhaps they could reclaim back enough gains to cancel the bedroom tax, for instance, or to set a proper living wage, to ban zero hour contracts, or maybes lift our pension provision to match the western European countries, rather than being on a par with Chile?
But silly me, the UK’s obsession with short-termism and their veneration of bankers and Footsie CEOs, and the like would soon give that idea short shrift. Ah well, just have to vote Yes next September.
Call me Dave
LoL I see MM was too much for even the Herald moderators this time. He appears to be descending into pure trolldom with a fair dollop of compulsive lying thrown in for good measure. This is good, I think the rather sad comments from the likes of him and Kelly, who appears to follow him down any hole without engaging even a modicum of intellect, can only serve to utterly turn away the undecided from their cause.
I see the piece was written by grumpy cat.
@Alba4Eva: Brilliant! Thanks for the link, there are some great photos in there. 🙂
It is one thing to have an easygoing relationship with the Republic of Ireland,the United Kingdom is the source of some of the most dangerous plots in the Western world and there fore the Homeland authorities are going to take a much greater interest in British travellers and are more liable to subject them to detailed questioning before allowing entry.
@H&S: Took a wee jaunt over to the Herald there, got about 6 or 7 comments down and Cooncillor Kelly came away with this –
“Were Nazis marching shoulder to shoulder with their snp brothers and sisters in Edinburgh on Saturday or were they not, was there “no evidence” of this either Alasdair?”
So I came back here, and now I’m going for a shower. A long one.
reginald
I see where you are coming from now and agree. Britain is the base for many ‘doggy’ people, many with MI6 ‘handlers’.
I have a copy of a similar letter in front of me, One of my mates wrote to DWP in January
They cant get out of it, they cannot not pay the pension, as if you have paid into the
pension system via ni for 30 years you are due your pension. (35 years from 2016)
The worst they can do is not pay annual increases, that’s if they leave the EU
and I quote directly from the letter is
Quote
In answer to your second question, anyone who is in receipt or entitled to claim State Pension can still receive this when the live abroad. If this is a European country or a country where Britain has a reciprocal agreement they will continue to receive annual increases as if they stayed in Great Britain.
if the country does not fall into the above criteria then the rate of State Pension remains payable at the rate it was when they left Britain and no annual increases will be applied until such times they come back to live in Britain Permanently
Unquote
If the Condems come out with anything other than what it says in the letter then its part of project fear. Incidently my mate passed the contents of this letter to the Herald via its editor several months ago, they MSM know about this but they still print tripe about Scotland being unable to afford pensions. In effect what this means is that we can build a pension pot in the ten years or so we have a pension holiday to pay future pensions rather than being effectively out of current taxation as is the case in the UK
O/T
Fear Factor part 4
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/09/26/the-fear-factor-mean-scotland-syndrome/
Thanks for the article Cath.
In the wider context this article sits well with getting the independence word ‘accepted and normalised’ into every day use. We can illustrate to voters that the oddity in the world is our current situation as part of the UK but with no real powers.
As someone who visits the US at least every other year, I can concur that the queue for immigration is an unwelcome 1 hour + wait that is not welcome after an 8 hour flight.
I have never had any problem with the border officials though, an Irish sounding surname ( albeit that it’s actually Pictish) and a passport full of US immigration stamps seems to help. I’d love to be able to go through the internal line, which always seems to be empty. Here’s hoping we get this sorted soon.
We have a good relationship with the US and I would say it must be even better than the Irish given the impact Scots have made on the US through the centuries.
…and people in the States wonder why I’m so desperate to expatriate to Scotland.
Stuart
I rarely read the Herald these days but on the rare occasion I do I can guarantee Mr Kelly will be there waving his hatred of all things SNP. He rarely says anything of note himself but he does his wee cheerleader thing for the wing nut posters. A side kick more than a side. MM and OBE are the real mainstays of the Herald odd balls. A certain irony in that neither will have a vote in the matter.
Taranaich – I like to say the 99 93 84 numbers the other way round, because most people know that Scotland gets more spent on it by proportion of population than the rest of the UK, let’s face it it is hard to avoid that stat with the British media repeating it almost daily. So I like to say the 84 and 93 stats first so that people are following your gist and nodding along, then can come the big reveal, 99… which some people point blank refuse to believe, and others are astonished. At that point I ask them rhetorically why they think the media hasn’t told them that final stat yet? And leave it for folk to work that out for themselves.
Doug Daniel, France is also very centralised. Albeit there is a much stronger municipal tradition at the local level than the UK.
I find it interesting the way US authorities perceive “danger”. Recent article in the Guardian raises interesting perspective on “intervention”.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/21/american-gun-out-control-porter
“The annual toll from firearms in the US is running at 32,000 deaths and climbing, ……. If this perennial slaughter doesn’t qualify for intercession by the UN and all relevant NGOs, it is hard to know what does.”
Some other startling statistics in the article.
Yes indeed, HandandShrimp, he is certainly in the second division, in more ways than one. However, I can’t help but wonder, if an SNP councillor was to disseminate the kind of bile that Mr Kelly spews out, how Better Together and the MSM would react, I am sure it would be pointed out vociferously and at great length.
This man’s views – and I suppose I reluctantly accept he has the right to hold and even promulgate them – are of such luminous repugnance that I can’t bring myself to read him, I was caught unawares there, sadly. How the Labour party puts up with him is telling by itself, a sad indictment of a once great party. He, from memory, claims all the usual heroes for his own, Hardie, Maxton, Bevan et al. With no supporting evidence whatsoever, I would bet my right arm that every one of them would find him, and his views, utterly despicable. He is a very, very stupid man. Hard to file under zany comic relief, nothing comic about him.
Anywise, that’s got that off my chest, really am going for a shower now, ‘night
…. he does his wee cheerleader thing for the wing nut posters.
I still think we ought to claim the “Wingnut” label….
I think Prince Charles owns that label, Morag. 😉
@ Alba4Eva 8:12 pm- Loving you and having a wee jig around the floor. Thanks for the link and have finally found a photo with me in it. Not only that Rev Stu is loud and proud and waving the Wings flag. Yes he will complain about his tonsure but that ‘maketh the man’. 🙂
Eddie, I know that feeling.
But try entering the US with a whole load of visas from Arab countries in your passport. I got hauled over the coals for that.
In the end I had to get two passports.One for American and Israeli visas, the other for Arab countries and Russia.
I always worried about getting them mixed up.
@Stuart Black-
‘...what if these thousands of agents were to be diverted to investigate the activities of the global arseoisie and their use of tax havens…’
Quite so, dontcha think Reginald?
Put it another way – if you created 4 million jobs paying 26k p.a., you wouldn’t be anywhere near the amount that’s lost every year to tax avoidance.
Never reported that way though Ian, is it?
Wonder why…
I see Reginald is going in for a complex wind up here – hope no-one keeps it going.
OK Paula, I’m out. 😉
@Stuart –
For the avoidance of any doubt, which ‘Kelly’ is being referred to upthread? – I always get those belters mixed-up when I’ve had a few. (I know it’s not ‘Ned’…one of t’others.)
O/T and profuse apologies but have you seen this:
http://www.killingauntiefilms.co.uk/index.php?p=appearances
O/T True story, just happened. I’m sitting doing address labels for leafleting the outlying farms by post, for the council by-election next month. The phone rings.
Me: Hello?
Voice: Is that Mrs. Kerr?
Me (suspiciously): Who is that? (I’m suspicious because I’m not “Mrs. Kerr”.)
Voice: It’s the SNP, calling about the by-election.
Me (reassured somewhat): I really get quite upset when people ask for Mrs. Kerr like that, because she died two years ago.
Voice: Oh, I’m very sorry, I’ll have your name taken off the list at once.
Me (confused): So what can I tell you about the by-election?
Voice: I was wondering which way you were going to vote, what your preference is?
Me (following a slightly stunned silence): I’m the candidate.
Voice: Er, what?
Me: I’m the candidate.
[ …. phone is put down at the other end …. ]
O/T and profuse apologies but have you seen this:
http://www.killingauntiefilms.co.uk/index.php?p=appearances
Oh for goodness sake, you need to put a health warning with that. Now I’m the one that needs the long shower.
@ianbrotherhood: The great Terry Kelly, the jewel in the crown of SLAB’s local cooncillors, and notable Herald poster. He equates the peaceful and civic nationalism of the SNP with rampant nazidom, with no hint of irony.
LOL Morag. That’s brilliant. Not quite sure how it could happen but brilliant all the same.
Was it definitely the SNP do you think, or are some other party getting such a poor reception they’re lying? 🙂
Morag – surely not ! please tell me this isn’t true. do 1471 and get the phone number if you can.
mr kelly apears to me to be not the full shilling, his comments are lower than his i.q, he comes across as the kind of pondlife you would not wish to live next door too. who the hell votes for articles like him ?
I did a 1471, but “the caller withheld their number”.
I mean, he obviously wasn’t trying to phone my deceased mother, he was trying to phone me using a list that didn’t include titles. So he guessed, wrong. It happens. However, I’ve been an SNP member for over 25 years, I’ve lived at this address for over six years and the SNP knows this (they send me enough begging letters!) and I’m active in the local branch.
Even if I hadn’t been the candidate, who makes up these lists? Don’t they inform the telephone canvassers who the party members are? And when you’re canvassing for an election, don’t you have some basic information about the candidate in front of you in case the voter, well asks who the candidate is, for one thing.
Weird. Even weirder than the Tory Brigadier type who phoned me last night to ask me some questions about my election leaflet. That was interesting, but certainly less strange.
Morag, best of luck for the by-election when it comes.
same here
Morag
Surprised they didn’t do the old
Caller “and do you know who you are talking to?”
Morag: “No”
Caller “Thank God”
@Morag-
‘Oh for goodness sake, you need to put a health warning with that. Now I’m the one that needs the long shower.’
Strangely, as I watched the 12min50sec film linked to by Inbhir, I thought ‘oooh, Inbhir, you’re gonny get a Morag-shaped rocket heading your way.’
Then I finish watching it, get back here, and hey-presto, you’ve already washed your hands of it in typically dismissive terms.
You didn’t even watch it. Did you?
Just don’t start, OK? If I’d had any idea it was 9/11 trutherism I wouldn’t have soiled my cursor by clicking on the link.
British government likes terrorism in measurable quantities because it helps them justify a disproportionate size of security apparatus & it gives them an apparent moral authority to write legislation which provides them with as much control over its citizens as it thinks it can get away with without initiating riots/revolutions. Its an incremental process that creeps into our daily lives.
More folks are killed in the kitchen cooking dinner each year in Britain than at the hands of nutters from Afghanistan or Somalia or Nigeria but that doesn’t sound like a convincing basis upon which to restrict your travel/movement/freedom of speech etc.
Morag
If it was the SNP and knowing their system due to data protection the phone calling list does not indicate whether or not your are a member.
However it is updated monthly so if your mother has been removed from the voters roll they would not have asked for her by name.
Pardon?
If you want to discuss this further, please move across to Quarantine.
Incidentally, the only time you’ve ever deigned to appear there was on Sep 11th just past, with some noble sentiments about not-liking censorship.
(Sorry if this has interrupted the paeans you were receiving on your impending candidacy.)
And BTW, seeing as you won’t dare show face in Quarantine when it comes to this subject, please answer the question I asked – did you even bother to view the link before passing judgement on it?
(That’s called a ‘closed question’ Morag – it can only be answered with a Yes or a No. Kinda like the referendum we’re all discussing.)
GH Graham, hammer, nail, head.
Hey Morag – now I get the after 10 Oct for meet up. Had thought perhaps you’d be out on campaig trail for SNP candidate, but didn’t know it was you (It wasn’t me on the phone by the way!)
What a hero you are standing for our SNP. You definitely have the gift of the gab and armfuls of facts. Here’s to you winning. I’ll keep everything crossed, (eyes, legs, fingers + toes), for you, but you wont need it:-)
Scottish business booming!!
It must be true it’s in the express.
Just love Rennie’s quote near the end.
http://archive.is/HqJJq
Ratchet(s), one can be found in every incremental-ists tool box.
@handandshrimp. Mr. Kelly et al. Rhetorical Qs. 1) how can any ‘newspaper’ allow such vitriol to be posted? 2) Why does anyone respond to him and his mates? And if necessary, why not with just a crap/pish/filth comment. It’s all him and his deserves. 3) Is there a way to remove someone who is clearly unfit for public office, from that office? -aside from an election. Perhaps a flyer with his choicest quotes may focus the minds of his constituents. Labour – oh naw.
@Morag-
Okay, fair do’s.
You’ve just posted (ironically enough) on the ‘Quoted for Proof’ thread so I take it you won’t be responding to my question, either here or on Quarantine.
You just couldn’t resist getting your oar in, eh? But you got the timing wrong – badly wrong – and exposed yourself as an intellectual coward.
Hey-ho, so it goes.
Ian, we know where we stand. You believe that stuff. I have debated such as you to a standstill, and I’m tired of it. It’s a closed question. I’m not interested in entering into the debate again. I have much better things to do with my time.
ianbrotherhood
There’s a post for you in quarantine.
@Morag-
You haven’t the first idea about what I believe. About anything.
You never entered into any debate to begin with, and have avoided every invitation to do so in the proper place i.e. Quarantine.
So, again, here’s the invitation – come across to the space Rev provided, and let’s get down to it. Doesn’t have to be right now, if you’re ‘tired’.
Anytime will suit me fine.
But before we go over there, for the benefit of Ibrhaim and others who may be following this thread – did you watch the linked video before posting your dismissive message? Yes or No?
Speaking of conspiracy theories, the latest from the Unionist Twiterati is that there can’t have been 20k people at the march because the Scottish Police Federation are an SNP front 😛
@CameronB-
Well-noted, with thanks.
ianbrotherhood
If I had someone tell me my head buttons up the back, I would certainly want them to explain their reasoning. Otherwise, I might take offense.
Kind of a popular theme.
For the hundredth time, I am not going to debate 9/11. Not here, not anywhere in fact. Been there, seen that, done a bit of it. It takes over your life. It makes “whack-a-mole” seem an eminently sensible pastime.
There are entire internet forums groaning with rational (and irrational) discussion of the most trivial minutiae. Whole web sites are devoted to explaining why Alex Jones is full of it. I have much better things to do with my time. Innocently clicking on a link on Wings to find Alex Jones at the other end is not an experience I want to repeat.
So trot off to Quarantine and talk to yourselves if you like.
sorry o/t at the risk of appearing a bit dim, but could.. somebody explain what the numbers 99 93 84 mean..???? If there useful in campaigning..
@Morag-
Aye
Okay.
What-ev-er.
I’m still keeping a wee seat for you in Quarantine (a few minutes ago) for whenever you feel like getting ‘real’.
Newtonian physics. Trivial minutia. Say it all.
Back to my spectator’s seat in quarantine. I could do with a snooze.
castle hills –
99 means 9.9% – the Scottish peoples contribution to the UK treasury. 9.9% of all UK tax receipts come from Scotland
93 means 9.3% – the amount Scotland gets back
84 means 8.4% – Scotland makes up 8.4% of the UK’s population.
Proves that we actually subsidise the rest of the UK, helps to dispel ‘subsidy junky myths’
Should be number one fact on ‘fighting for independence: economy section’ if there were such a publication.
And when you’re canvassing for an election, don’t you have some basic information about the candidate in front of you in case the voter, well asks who the candidate is, for one thing.
I always think of the perfect reply too late. If my brain had been in gear, I’d have said, “oh, I’m not sure now, who’s standing for the SNP again?” That would have been fun….
@Morag-
‘I always think of the perfect reply too late.’
Aye.
Except when you don’t have any reply.
At all.
Ian, you are labouring under a misapprehension. I’m not debating with you. I have no interest in debating with you or with anyone else about 9/11. Or the JFK assassination, or the moon landings, or Bigfoot, or anything else of that nature.
I am telling you my opinion. I am telling you what I think of that tinfoil hat nonsense. You are entirely free to go on believing exactly as you please. I have no intention of trying to persuade you differently. Only in recording my dissenting opinion whenever the topic is raised.
It appears that one person in particular on this site, is able to traduce the intellect and character of others, with total impunity.
What happened to playing the ball?
If the cap fits, Cameron. I merely make the point that if someone comes on here spouting 9/11 trutherism, I will indicate my dissent from such opinions. You don’t get to parade your opinions and demand that others either agree or enter into a never-ending off-topic debate. I don’t have to agree with you, and I don’t have to debate with you. You are entirely free to continue believing what you like. I simply don’t believe you should be free to assume that your opinions are universally accepted.
You don’t get to parade your opinions and demand that others either agree or enter into a never-ending off-topic debate.
Pot, kettle. I expect people to be respectful of the opinions of others, or at least to be tolerant. You are neither.
Now ffffffffffffffffffind someone else to annoy.
P.S. My previous comment may have been about you, but was not directed at you. I still have no wish to converse with you directly, and hope you will respect my wishes in the future.
P.P.S. Do you really think you ate doing your political ambitions any favours, with the attitude you have displayed towards others whom you do not know?
who, whom.
vinegar, sauce.
I’m going to bed.
The day I am “respectful” of 9/11 truther opinion, hell will freeze over.
There is no barrier to your propounding whatever opinions you choose. There is however no obligation on anyone to agree with them. Neither is there any obligation to debate with you. My opinion is that 9/11 trutherism is delusional nonsense.
Respect that, if you’re so respectful of others’ opinions….
I shall let the readers draw their own conclusions.
“Respect that, if you’re so respectful of others’ opinions”
If both of you don’t start respecting or disrespecting each other’s opinions about this IN QUARANTINE I’m going to clip both of your ears. Enough now.
tartanfever
many thanks for the reply, strangely enough knew the numbers, but never seen them expressed in that way…excellent
HA HA another weapon in the Bat-belt….
|Rev. Stuart Campbell
Did you not read my P.S @ 1:30am? What happened to playing the ball?
“When I last flew to the US from a UK airport, long before 9/11, we were held in a bleak corridor without any amenities for well over an hour before being processed through immigration, where we were interrogated about the purpose of our visit, what address we were staying at, and where we were going exactly. It put me off re-visiting the States for a long time.”
I think I’m a bit late for this particular discussion, but I think I should add that just recently (last month), a friend I met online from America decided to come over to England for a holiday, since his family originally came from there and he wanted to go and find where they used to live and all that.
He said he’d call me up when he got here too. I think he had a couple of friends over here, one of them down south he was staying with during his visit.
Anyways, the morning he was due to arrive, I got a call from some polite-but-firmly-refusing-to-be-sidetracked woman who said she was calling from Heathrow, they had someone who just landed from America and they needed to verify the purpose of his visit, since he’d put me down as someone he knows over here, she then started asking me all sorts of questions. Did I know him? How well did I know him? Where did I meet him? Do I know why he’s here? I think if I was actually physically in the room with her, she’d have been shining a lamp in my face!
They let him go eventually. He’s pretty much just this friendly 50-or-so hippie-ish guy who doesn’t in the least bit look like he’s coming here to blow up the country.
When he was younger he used to get involved in all sorts of protests over there, and I can’t help wondering if the hassle at the airport was caused by some “potential dissident” tag on a file on him somewhere that was flagged up when he travelled overseas.
Seems like British and American airports are up to the same tricks. Just reminding anyone who isn’t a brainwashed sheep that “Big Brother is watching you!”
Scary thought really. Hope none of the regulars on here are planning a trip abroad any time soon… 😉
Really interesting article, did not know that. I’ll be flying from Dublin now.
As for why would anyone vote no, well, the majority do not realise that we already pay for everything ourselves yet have no control over things.
When you point THAT out, they move very quickly from a no to a yes.
I would ask you all to try it on a no voter, it’s the quickest and simplest way to persuade them.
If someone in Hull is being crucified by the neoliberal right-wing cruel excesses of Westminster then it’s only fair that Scotland should be crucified by the neoliberal right-wing cruel excesses of Westminster too. It’s the British way.