Oliver Notwell
Posted on
March 23, 2019 by
Chris Cairns
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Sir May aye.
Sire May I please be in charge and be OBEYED.
First we had Strong and Stable, followed by Weak and Wobbly, but I think we’re now at full-on Deranged and Delusional.
Unhinged in a single-minded and impervious kind of way.
Well done Chris! UR the best.
Wow Chris, that’s a boot In the balls with a pair of divers boots. Thats her excellently portrayed In your marvellous cartoon, she is totally deranged madwoman and whoever is advising her should also be locked up, yet the BBC continues not to voice any real concern in a UK PM out of total control.Always look forward to starting a Saturday with a chuckle. Stu , CC earned his corn this week, cough up!
link to chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com
For more details, in a forensically deep analysis and dissection of the politics and the personal style of the still Prime Minister.
She who must be obeyed – or mibbies no.
Strong and stable, ad nauseam.
Britain will leave the EU on the 29th of March, over 100 times at the Dispatch box.
A complete lack of empathy for the victims/survivors of the Greenfell disaster.
She’s nae richt.
Nice one Chris, put a smile on my face
I think that speech she made the other night was her resignation speech.
The Tory vultures are circling.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Oliver Notwell Read the full article:: Wings Over Scotland […]
If the vultures wer’nt circling before then they are now.
Nice one Chris.
All I remember about Cromwell (me being terribly ancient obviously) is that he wanted to be portrayed warts and all and he infamously stabled his horses in the chapel of George Herriot’s School, Edinburgh, when he and his Roundheads invaded Scotland.
Bit of an all round prick really.
As for TM and her edging ever closer to destroying the Mother (etc) of all parliaments, what a pity the Giftie hasn’t paid her a wee visit to show her how others see her.
There is something notatallwell with that woman.
It seems political commentators in London are just noticing that Theresa May is ‘not the full shilling’. It has been pretty obvious from day one – indeed before that.
Just remember how she refused to take questions in the election, how she just constantly says the vacuous phrase ‘brexit means brexit’, how she has cold-heartedly behaved in the home office, against immigrants (windrush). Look at the utter creeps she has in her cabinet. Then their was the ‘dance’ at her conference speech, and the frankly odd manner she has of siting smirking in the HoC whenever she is critisised or even asked relatively tame questions. She exhibits many of the traits of a psycopath.
She has never been ‘right’, and should frankly never have been permitted anywhere near number 10, never mind parliament. I have always thought she is extremely anti social, and just cannot relate to people.
As I suggested last year, Theresa will only leave number 10 by being literally dragged kicking and screaming out the door.
Even worse, her silly games are still continuing. It seems that the ‘meaningful’ votes next week, won’t be on NEW ideas to leave the EU. Rather they will be a choice of her deal, OR her deal plus customs union, OR her deal plus single market, OR her deal plus something less.
And just ponder the fact that under her leadership, in parliament we now must have the word ‘meaningful’ added to votes. WTF.
I really think she is rather ill. Certainly she is not mentally fit for high office. Let us hope somebody somewhere does the right thing and tells her quite clearly she needs to go. It need to happen sooner rather than later.
Great work there Chris, you captured May there very well. What is it about the power mad? Give them an inch and they’ll take, well everything they can lay their scheming hands on at the expense of everyone else.
It’s all about money when the chips are down, but May and her cabal are playing a dangerous game, and the losers who thought they’d be winners won’t take too kindly to being cheated.
TMay is displaying a worrying amount of symptoms of “Messiah Complex”.
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
“… is a state of mind in which an individual holds a belief that they are destined to become a savior. The term can also refer to a state of mind in which an individual believes that he or she is responsible for saving or assisting others.”
Haha is that a Cromwellian nod there Chris? How apt. He also destroyed a way of life, and the country still bears the scars of his religious barbarity.
I’m not going to make it to Glasgow the morn 🙁 but I am going to make it to Inverness today 😉
For anyone that doesn’t know there is a “Scotland Can” march in Inverness today. 1:45 at Bught Park starting 2:30.
I don’t know how well attended this will be given the Glasgow march tomorrow, but hope to see a few friends there.
I think the term I would utilise in Mrs May’s case is “concrete thinking”. It is rematkable the top politician in a State cannot have the imperative quality of flexibility.
She will never change of course,believing everybody else is mistaken.
I think she has to somehow be removed for her own sake as well as ours.
Excerpt fromMay’s letter to MP’s last night: ‘If it appears that there is not sufficient support to bring the deal back next week, or the House rejects it again, we can ask for another extension before 12 April – but that will involve holding European Parliament elections.’
Holy shit.
Also TMays in her meeting with opposition leaders said that “the people voted for pain” when asked about the consequences of a No Deal Brexit.
link to mobile.twitter.com
How very Puritanical, pretty sure Cromwell would have approved.
In the end, it was the men in grey suits that came for Thatcher. Where are they when you need them?
There is a difference between courage and willingness to take risks, and being foolhardy and reckless. Mrs May has crossed that line.
She knows she is vulnerable, and this is causing her to act the way she is doing at present. It will not resolve unless she leaves. Loss of self is crippling and leads to bad decision making. Mrs May is in that realm.
I advise resignation, both of job, and to accepting she is on the wrong path.
Like Cromwell, the Tbot isn’t a fan of democracy, she’s a narrow, utilitarian, authoritarian and cultural chauvinist, i.e. racist. She typifies contemporary British nationalism, which appears to be morphing in to a full-fat form of English fascism.
Ironically, it’s her cavalier attitude to the best interests of the UK that’s been the problem.
The real problem is the ‘English parliament’ and its victorian values and culture. May is just the scapegoat for a antique system that has broken down. If she were replaced or the rag bag of ‘parliamentarians’ let loose to find ‘better a deal’ the result would be an extension of misrule. In a country where effectively the mps make up the ‘constitution’ on the hoof, very likely. In a modern European republic the president would have dissolved parliament and called a general election in such a stalemate situation.
A GE, an independence focused GE, is the only way out for Scotland. The rest, petitions and referenda, is just distracting noise. Be ready!
Great image. She’s be sending her modern day General Monck to have another go at Yes-city Dundee.
manandboy says:
23 March, 2019 at 7:34 am provides this link:
link to chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com
This is very useful. Here is someone who seems to have got the measure of things – inasmuch as that is possible.
Theresa May – A Study in Tyranny.
Puzzledpuss @ 8:39 a.m.
In the end, it was the men in grey suits that came for Thatcher. Where are they when you need them?
_______
In this case, Theresa (and the rest of us) need to see her taken away by the men in white coats.
Westminster takes all of Scotland’s Oil & Gas worth 100’s of billions. Scotland says, we don’t care!
The power of propaganda to control the mind, which the British Establishment exercises over the majority of the Scottish population, can be measured by the 40 + years of the exploitation of Scotland’s massive oil & gas reserves, without any effective political response.
It is like a householder who just shrugs upon hearing the news that his life savings have just been removed from his bank account.
The truly painful part is that most Scots are addicted to the Media which carries the brainwashing propaganda and show no interest whatsoever in breaking their habit.
I can just see her dismissing parliament just as Ollie Cromweel
link to speakola.com
If nothing else it would be a good laugh.
Scotland not too poor
link to thenational.scot
THE astonishing value of Scotland’s resources has been revealed for the first time by a ground-breaking new study which claims Scotland’s natural wealth stands at one third of the UK’s total.
The research, by the Office of National Statistics, examined the value or profit provided by natural resources – such as wind, water, oil and gas – and how they are used.
In 2015, the partial-asset value of Scottish natural capital was estimated to be £273 billion, 34% of the UK as a whole.
The Scottish Natural Capital Accounts report explains: “The benefits we receive from nature are predominantly hidden, partial or missing from the nation’s balance sheet
Meanwhile you know when Brian Wilson has lost the argument in today’s Scotsman when he again goes on about the SNP helping to put Margaret Thatcher into power when it was the two million more English voters who preferred her to the shambolic Callachan Labour government.
Neatly done Chris. 🙂
Not ‘strong and stable’ and certainly not merely stubborn or a ‘bloody difficult woman’. The whole ‘the people voted for pain’ thing clearly puts an end to any idea that this PM is fit to govern anyone or anything. Also.. whoddathunk?
Tunnel visioned or monomaniacal seem a bit more applicable as descriptors tbh.
Mrs May must use Royal perogative to oust the parliamentarianists from the parliament before they take control of the parliament they wrested from the Monarchy who used Royal perogative to control the people who don’t understand any of it anyway
The army Mrs May, the army, the people must be stopped we can’t have thinking and democracy, chaos would ensue
Restore the rule of Maylaw
Theresa May, the worst PM in recent history (narrowly shading Gordon Brown).
Prediction:
The next one will be even worse.
Hopefully, we wont have to suffer much longer. Roll on!
For an academic, that Brian Wilson really is a bit of an intellectual dinosaur. He’s a million miles from being post-colonial and so, subsequently, more closely resembles a narrow, reactionary, utilitarian, bigot. A parochial neo-facist no less.
X Sticks and all – Have a really lovely day in Inverness 🙂
Cactus and all – Have a wonderful day in Glasgow 🙂
She would definitely ‘press the button’ without a second’s hesitation…all some spad has to do is write it on a piece of paper and she would regurgitate it and that would be that, not a leader, not a states person, not a fucking clue.
‘May’s deal’ won’t happen. ‘No deal’ mustn’t happen. Yet these appear to be the only options TMay is contemplating. Deranged, deluded, dangerous? Something certainly far wrong for any parliament to reach this state.
The revoke petition is over four million. It will be the largest of this type of petition in a few hours. When you look at the numbers in some constituencies, their MPs need to take note.
Nicola on her way to the march in London. Will she be addressing the crowd, or just present?
The SNP have 2 MP’s at Westminster. Could they not section May under the Mental Health Act and the rest of the Tories and DUP?
*MP’s that are doctors.
brian Wilson a “Kelt” sorry “Selt” to the end. Selt oot Scotland. Believes in Irish Independence and every other country except one. Answers on a postcard – no stamp- (going up 3p from tomorrow)to …….Snout in the Nuclear trough…….
The FM must have protection on the streets of London today the headcase % is high there (I don’t like it)
The Prime-minister relinquished parliamentary control over Britain’s deliberative democracy and it is now far-right English cultural nationalism and the voice of the mob that is running the show. If Scotland’s people value democracy, they really need to support independence when we get the chance.
A Great cartoon (as usual from Chris Cairns) because it’s true.
A full on English Civil War no less.
Luigi says:
23 March, 2019 at 10:03 am
Theresa May, the worst PM in recent history (narrowly shading Gordon Brown).
But I’ll raise my glass to her being the last UK PM…
The writing on Westminster’s wall is an obituary not yet completed.
Anyone who is not resident in England, and not a BritNat, should sit back and watch. It’s not everyday the world, and Scotland in particular, gets the opportunity to witness history being made like this. Krakatoa?
I have no objection at all to Nicola speaking at the People’s Vote EU ref2 march today. Provided that she speaks at the next AUOB march. The arguments that the First Minister cannot be out campaigning for referenda now falls.
It is a fact that, having spoken at over 30 Independence rallies and marches since 2011 (not including indoor meetings) I have never once seen Nicola at one. Perhaps I am very unlucky.
There are a very great many people in the Independence movement who have very real doubts about where Nicola’s priorities lie. And the vitriolic comments which will now follow about me having once been a friend of Carmichael, will do nothing to lessen that.
@Dr Jim at 10.25
I really wouldn’t be too concerned about NS welfare in London today. Remember, the media have effectively put a blackout on Scottish politics for the last two years. Most people down here don’t have the faintest idea who Nicola Sturgeon is.
Lovely day in Glasgow. Spring has finally sprung. Hope the Rally tomorrow will be a huge one. Everybody come. Give a show of strength to the Westminster lying sychophants psychopaths. May, May go away by May.
Can’t wait until the SNP Spring Conference to denounce the Con liars. Then the time is right.
Another IndyRef and Independence.
Great work Chris, I think that’s how the Maybot sees herself.
I read somewhere recently ( can’t remember where) a quote from someone who knows her, saying God is telling her that she is right. Help ma boab, when you start wi the God stuff, time for the men in the white coats surely.
The woman is utterly delusional, still thinks that she can play games and the EU will let her. Boy is she in for a surprise. Like others I’m wondering where are the men in the grey suits. Mind you, if they remove her, who the hell are we likely to get.
I truly despair of Westminster and England. The leave voters are going to be hoping mad at not getting the brexit that the voted for. Things are turning very ugly darn souff.
Another belter Chris.
Elsewhere.
Scotland’s astonishing wealth, pity that Westminster is squandering it.
link to thenational.scot
Everyone in the world knows Nicola, Alex and Co. They want to be their friends especially in the EU. They have put Scotland on the map. On speed dial to all world leaders. The totally despised May is held in contempt and despised by everyone. The Westminster unionists and their sychophants trying to destroy the world economy. Blowing the world to bits. Lying, cheating, greedy sychophant, psycho bastards.
Just seen that the instigator of the REVOKE A50 petition has received death threats in Cyprus.
I agree with Dr Jim here. If that particular right-wing Brexiteer feels they are being thwarted they will look for a target. You just have to see how they went for Gina Miller and how they address the FM on social media.
Uppity Scots are a prime target. There are lots of angry people on the web today who feel their Brexit slipping away. On the bright side though maybe they will realise that England and Scotland want different things and stop putting obstacles in our way.
I think this might help folk understand what is going on a bit better, though identifying and defining the properties of a “bin-fire” isn’t easy.
The World in a State of Disintegration? An Interview with Heikki Patomäki
link to globalpolicyjournal.com
She’ll need that suit of Armour if this is true, the knives are well and truly out.
link to buzzfeed.com
@Essexexile 11:33am
That was a stupid and crass British Nationalist thing to say and you’re a total irresponsible idiot for saying it
Galamcennelath, I believe Nicola Sturgeon will be addressing the march in London today =)
Three major marches on this weekend – Inverness today, Glasgow tomorrow and London.
Marie Clark says:
23 March, 2019 at 11:37 am
The woman is utterly delusional, still thinks that she can play games and the EU will let her. Boy is she in for a surprise.
It is the PM (and the entire British establishment) that is being played. The EU holds ALL the cards. A gradual retention of the UK in the EU is the strategy – don’t frighten the horses, but don’t let em go either.
Think of Brexit being a big powerful (but stupid) fish, and the EU being an expert angler. The fish is hooked but must be played to exhaustion before reeling in, otherwise it could break free. Not to stay that it will all go according to the EU plan. In this climate, anything can (and probably will) happen. 🙂
OT.
Independence Live will be Livestreaming the
……..’Scotland Standing Up For Our Citizens’……….
……………..Highland March……………………..
Inverness at 2pm approximately today.
Twitter Link:
link to tinyurl.com
May as Cromwell. Nice. When Cromewell subdued Scotland, many dead left in his murderous wake, he handed our sovereignty to his Roundhead parliament who threw it out again with the comment, “The damnable Scots are ungovernable. We do not want this burden!”
How right they were. If only the saps since heeded their advice.
Your essential weekend reading:
England’s slow, ugly death: link to wp.me
Dragons, dragons everywhere: link to wp.me
So what’s (t)Ruthless Davidson got to say about Brexit?
Search for Brexit
link to globalpolicyjournal.com
@CBB 12.01
A friend who works with suicide survivors was speaking of ‘Anomie'(?)as a wider condition affecting the breakdown of the relationship between individual and society. They spoke of a disconnect in all areas of society. No one feels their government or the machinery of society speaks for them. Ominously, they said usually a war or natural disaster sorts it out for a while.
Dr Jim, where do you live sunshine?
If you think London is any more or less filled with angry bampots than eg Glasgow (I have long experience of both, so know what I’m talking about), then you’re mistaken.
Also, I’m well aware of Nicola’s profile in the English media (as, again, I live down here FFS). Occassional and low billing would be a fair assessment. Ask the Rev for a second opinion if you like.
So, no. Absolutely not crass or irresponsible or the other things you were accusing. I’m busy with stuff to do today so don’t have the time or energy for a ding ding battle with somebody who (for the billionth fookin’ time) is on the same side as me re independence.
Don’t know what you hold a PhD in but I’m assuming it’s not ‘Living in the real world’.
Good afternoon to you.
Sturgeon in London with the Unionist remainers trying to save the UK when she ought to be rejoicing in the chaos and helping to add to it. This so called constitutional crisis is our friend. England’s troubles Nicola. Pass the gasoline!
@Essexexile 12:54pm
Saucer of milk son?
Some of you need to get a grip.
Behave.
@Ottomanboi 12:57pm
The FM by going to a hostile febrile London and speaking in support of a people’s vote probably IS passing the gasoline because whatever she says down there isn’t going to count politically and she already knows that, that’s why I’m concerned about safety in a totally polarised atmosphere
Around 10% of every country has nut jobs that means by weight of population England has the same amount of nut jobs as Scotland has population, many people in England will see the Scottish FMs presence in what they believe is their superior domain and see it as an act of trolling them and get their backs up
Many will see it as a good thing, I worry it’s a risky thing
Brexit’s probably going to happen one way or another and Scotland will get our divorce anyway, maybe the FM thinks she has to be seen to be doing something or maybe she thinks it’ll make a hard Brexit MORE likely, who knows what her strategy is
Will N.S. Be at the march in Glasgow on Sunday and why was she not at Inverness today???
Independense is more important than brexit I mean how would We feel if the yes vote won our Ref.,2 and the no voters would not accept and tried to overturn a democratic vote by holding marches and using terms like crashing out and cliffs edge when it is only leave what we voted for I mean they would not be called remainers but what they really are losers I don’t think we would accept their ploys so do as you would be done by as they sa
@SilverDarling 12:53
An observation on Modern Political Anomie
For Durkheim, democracy is effective communication between the State and the people, not simply rule by the people. Nevertheless, the role of the State must on no account be tyrannical. Political anomie occurs when the individualistic ‘’will of the people’’predominates and effects to rule over the State. Durkheim links economic anomie with political anomie, because all major social functions in contemporary society are made secondary to economic functions: This is problematic as the only rule in economics is generally that of self-interest, which is insufficient for morality, and the consequences amount to “a public danger”. Durkheim describes democratic political systems ruled by the “will of the people” as “pseudo-democracies” characterized by chaos, stormy changes in politics, instability, and evil, because the will is inherently unstable.
The triumph of the so-called ‘’will of the people’’ thus often ends in authoritarianism and popular fascism.
Robbespierre, Moseley, Hitler, Le Pen or Farrage or whatever current online populist….what comes around etc.
SilverDarling
What about Scottish independence instead of war? Perhaps that might be the ‘shock’ to the international system, needed to reverse the slow progress in to global right-wing authoritarianism. How better to ignite a global re-Enlightenment, than re-uniting a people with their popular sovereignty and inalienable human rights? 🙂
@Dr Jim
Indeed it is all becoming very foggy and dangerous to boot.
I do HOPE she does know what is at stake. Scotland Expects.
Craig
Nicola was definitely at the Calton Hill march…That or I shook the hand of a very spooky doppelganger.
I see Jeremy is posted missing again. Let’s face it. He is a Brexit supporter.
link to irishtimes.com
This article in the irish times certainly pulls no punches in its view of Treeza Maybot.
It did however deliver a real stinger at the end, when it was revealed the author was a GUARDIAN journalist !!
If this type of brutally honest appraisals had been the norm in uk media, this shambles may have been resolved a long time ago.
Ties in nicely to todays brilliant CairnsToon.
Brexit is not what Scotland wants. I think Remain is up around 70% in Scotland now so it is right that Nicola represents our viewpoint.
If May crashes us out without a deal the likes of Davidson and Mundell do not have a keg to stand on regarding Indyref2. There can be no accusation that Nicola and the SNP did not give it 110% to prevent the fall out of Brexit and that Indyref2 is our lifeboat back to sanity.
That is a position that will gather a lot more support and respect from the No voters we need to win over than a purist independence or bust stance.
Daily Hail today ran a story about Scotland’s
Oil and Gas revenues being halved over 2 decades?
They seem to have Scotland providing 34% of UK energy
Needs with less than 10% of the population??
I make that to be an Idependant Scotland would be pretty much
Self sufficient and England completely insufficient.
@Ottamonboi – thanks for that. It really seems we are living that just now.
@CBB – Yes hopefully, it can work the other way.
I used to think it was about winning the referendum or election but recently it seems with the big things like Independence and Brexit, we need more than the 50 plus one to make them enduring and settled. Hopefully, that is what is happening with Indy now.
Craig, Im sure Nicola spoke at the edinburgh march in 2013, that aside I see where your coming from, but I think the SNP Management team are happy to see a diverse yes movement organisemarches and the like .
Had someone trying to tell everyone that no brexit = no indyref/indy, so be careful what we wish for etc.
My reply:
No brexit no indy huh ?
Wrong.
The mandate was “a material change of circumstances, SUCH AS Scotland being dragged out the EU against our will”
Big clue: “SUCH AS”
That means OTHER “material changes of circumstances” can ALSO apply to the mandate.
Lets see what could be considered a material change of circumstances over the last 3 years…..
Like say, WM SUBJUGATING SCOTS LAW over the Continuity Bill (by sleekit means)
Or re-writing the terms of the Devolution Act, and since DEVOLUTION was an express wish of the Sovereign Scots People via plebiscite, that means WM needs that express permission to change the terms.
By unilaterally changing the terms, WM have not only subjugated the Sovereign Will of the Sovereign Scots people, they have ALSO broken the express terms of the Treaty of Union itself.
These are material changes of circumstances, and ANY of the above triggers not only the mandate from the 2016 election, they also enable the dissolution of the Treaty of Union.
So, no, no brexit does NOT mean no indy.
Wishful thinking by usual suspects.
Geeo @2.19pm
Spot on. Can always rely on you to nail it.
Dr Jim
Your fellow doctor – Dr Doom (now an expert on bampots) seems to have forgotten about the Telegraphs front page stating that Sturgeon is a ("Tractor" - Ed) and should be beheaded like Mary Queen of Scots. An incitement to violence if ever there was one.
@geeo
Not to forget that once out of Europe we lose their protection and are subject to all of the Henry VIII powers to be brought in by May’s or whoever’s government. If anyone truly thinks Brexit will mean that the process of Independence will be easier they are kidding themselves.
Ottomanboi
Thanks for jogging the memory. Brexit will undermine the resiliance of Britain’s economy and social structures and, subsequently, encourage further social anomie. Scotland wasn’t promised that in 2014.
Anomie and culture management: reappraising Durkheim
link to journals.sagepub.com
Revisiting the Measurement of Anomie
link to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Social Change and Anomie: A Cross-National Study
users.soc.umn.edu/~uggen/Zhao_SF_10%20(rec%20only).pdf
Avoiding Anomie
link to resilience.org
The DUP speaking as if they owned the Scottish part of the Treaty of Union, and indeed as if the DUP were signatories to it.
link to bbc.co.uk
DUP deputy leader Nigel Dodds says
“The DUP has been very clear throughout that we want a deal which delivers on the referendum result and which works for all parts of the UK and for the EU as well.
“But it must be a deal that protects the union.
“That remains our abiding principle. We will not accept any deal which poses a long term risk to the constitutional and economic integrity of the United Kingdom.”
Generations of self-perceived superiority and entitlement in the British Establishment, added to by institutional denial, lying, deceit and pretence, have produced the present-day doctrines and dogma of British Nationalism, together with an Imperial Colonial creed which has led to the blind faith we hear proclaimed daily, including, and perhaps more forcefully, by the DUP & the UDA.
To them, the Union is sacrosanct. Britain is their territory, one nation in one country. The other nations are simply Colonial possessions and regions of the country they call ‘The United Kingdom’. The BritNats even share the one God, but he is not the God of the Welsh the Scots or the Irish.
It is time. For the Scots.
It will never be the time for the DUP, if only because they live, stuck in the past, while time moves on, leaving them further and further behind.
I do not buy into all that stuff, Silverdarling.
The Scottish parliament would simply change tact and declare the Treaty of Union as over.
And that is that, more or less.
Ask yourself this, if Scotsgov did that in reaction of WM trying to shut holyrood down, where does WM stand LEGALLY ?
Answer?
Nowhere.
The Treaty of Union is exactly what Robert Peffers keeps telling you it is, a biparate treaty of legally EQUAL partners.
As in any treaty, it can be ended without ‘permission’ from the other treaty partner, especially a legally equal partner,otherwise, it is NOT a treaty.
I am not remotely concerned about such a scenario as it will never arise.
@geeo
I like your confidence and faith and would hope it is true.
I don’t believe it is that simple. I think we are dealing with a mendacious and ruthless UK government who will try anything, tying us up in court proceedings that might extend beyond the next set of elections.
The Scottish government only has that mandate for this parliamentary session and they have to carry the people with them.
Never has the UK’s leadership been so incompetent or inadequate. Just watched Adam Price’s excellent speech at the Plaid Cymru conference. I’d definitely vote for him and his party if I lived in Wales. I hope the party does well in the future.
The UK is coming apart at the seams but it might be the best thing that has ever happened to the nations of this island.
MajorBloodnok @ 09:01,
Oh, cleverly put! =laugh=
HandandShrimp @ 13:52,
I very much agree. It’s all about building up respect and trust with those very people whom we need to convert to win. Simples, really.
(I note the proximity of the letters “k” and “l” on the keyboard, but somehow I just can’t shake off the image of the little corporal and Fluffy trying to do a Murph on a whisky barrel! =grin=)
I posted this the other day but it really is quite significant, IMHO.
link to journals.sagepub.com (ican’t remember the threat I originally posted but this is another link to the same study)
(I can’t remember the thread…
geeo says:
23 March, 2019 at 2:19 pm
Had someone trying to tell everyone that no brexit = no indyref/indy, so be careful what we wish for etc.
My reply:
No brexit no indy huh ?
Wrong.
The mandate was “a material change of circumstances, SUCH AS Scotland being dragged out the EU against our will”
Big clue: “SUCH AS”
That means OTHER “material changes of circumstances” can ALSO apply to the mandate.
Lets see what could be considered a material change of circumstances over the last 3 years…..
Technically true, but if we cannot get the ball in the back of the net over a binary Constitutional red line and flagrant violation of sovereignty like Brexit, then very it’s difficult to see how a lame and obscure Constitutional technicality is going to raise the clans and set the heather alight.
There will be a post Brexit bounce, of that I am sure, but brace yourselves, because it won’t all be one way traffic. There are a lot of people holding their tongues and biting their nails about the way this unfolding. Don’t take my word for it, check the btl comments on Nicola’s Twitter.
Brexit might yet prove to be a golden opportunity for Scotland that’s been blown, and wrestling control of one or two more devolved Powers from Europe is a pretty lousy consolation prize… and that maybe will set the heather alight, but not at all as predicted.
Looks like a good turnout in Inverness. Will any of the MSM in Scotland mention it?
Do we know why the first minister is marching and sharing a platform with tories and labour remainers for a referendum that would lose her mandate for an independence referendum?
I always thought that brexit makes independence a harder sell than both Scotland and rUK being in the EU. Maybe the FM has realised the same?
Breeks@3.23pm
In case you haven’t noticed – we haven’t left the EU yet and it is still not clear when or if that will happen.
Gfaetheblock
The First Minister heads the government for the whole of Scotland, not just indy supporters. She has to try and protect Scotland from Brexit. Perhaps she simply has principles.
Do we know why the first minister is marching and sharing a platform with tories and labour remainers for a referendum that would lose her mandate for an independence referendum?
2nd EU vote could result in the same result as 1st EU vote so I don’t know why it “would” anything. ‘Could’ perhaps – not “would”.
Besides–IR2 mandate is not solely predicated upon Brexit. If Sottish Indy support is consistently above 50% then that also constitutes a material change in circumstances for IR2 to go ahead.
Cubby @ 15:26,
Which inescapably reminds me of the old joke about the man who is falling off a skyscraper, and as he plummmets down, consoles himself with the thought “well, so far, so good”…
Cubby @ 15:26,
Which inescapably reminds me of the old joke about the man who is falling off a very high building, and as he plummets down, consoles himself with the thought “well, so far, so good”…
Gfaetheblock @ 15:24,
Are you in a tag team with Craig Murray or just trying to parasitically latch on to some perceived dissention in the ranks?
It’s pathetic. Nowhere near Nicola’s league. FibDum, you need to do way better than that. (But probably impossible, I know.)
RJS@3.39pm
Sorry don’t understand.
There’s a lot of awful stupid stuff about at the moement
Scotand by a large majority does not want to be taken out of the EU.
So the Scottish Government shouldn’t do anything to stop us being taken out of the EU?
Explain that to me.
No. Seriously – explain that to me. We should just allow Scotland to be dragged out of the EU against the will of a vast majority of its population and do nothing to prevent that?
Because if we are reduced to living on totties and wild berries we will gain independence? Is that the the argument?
If anything, a 2nd EU referendum with a higher remain vote in Scotland and closer Leave-Remain vote in England would show the disparity even more.That no matter what we do within the current system, we are not represented.
I can see why another EU vote might be ‘helpful’ to the Indy cause if that were the case. Trying to game these factors won’t help in the long run though. The mandate is for now.
The status of the Scottish Parliament is what I feel is the main variable in all this. When Mike Russell’s bill was contested in the UK Supreme court it was all about the ‘competence’, where we ‘allowed’ to do it. The UK government just delayed proceedings to bring in legislation to make it outwith our competence even though originally it was. Where was the outrage beyond the National and on here over that?
What is stopping them doing that with every piece of legislation brought by the Scottish Parliament? Drip-drip to undermine it, not some big let’s do away with it, just neuter and paralyze it with red tape and arguments over competence.
Now don’t get angry with me, but just tell me, how do we go about dissolving the Treaty of Union when the UK government can act like that?
@starlaw says:23 March, 2019 at 8:04 am:
… If the vultures wer’nt circling before then they are now.
Nice one Chris”.
Ach! Tory vultures are aye circlin – but it is usually around those sick, poor, disabled and vulnerable people that Tory policies have almost killed off – they’ve eaten all the ones they killed already.
Well the BBC is saying there are hundreds of thousands marching in London
I guess in BBC terms that means millions
BBC don’t you just love them and as for wee diddy BBC Scotland what can I say
Bring on jackie
@Craig Murray,
The story of Jesus calling Matthew the tax collector to be his disciple.
We find Jesus reclining at table with many tax collectors and sinners, “for there were many who followed him”
When the scribes and Pharisees grumble about the company he keeps,
Jesus tells them that he has “not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance”
There are some, particularly ex-English public schoolboys, who are rather attracted to, (cough!), “assertive”, women.
When Joanna Cherry and co went to court to find out if article 50 could be revoked unilaterally was that a precedent that could be used?
Could an action be raised to find out if the Treaty of the Union can be unilaterally revoked by the Scottish Parliament? Is that something that has been done before?
If the answer was yes, then surely that would be the step to take next? Then, if so and it is confirmed in law, the Indy parties would have a solid legal basis to campaign on if we go beyond the next elections and no referendum is on the horizon.
I see BritNat Douglas Alexander still on the nationalist theme when he speaks of independence supporters. This is a member of the Labour party that currently want to leave the EU, when in government made it plain they would always keep the British Pound and definitely didn’t want a united states of Europe.
Another that sees his British Nationalism as good but everybody else’s as bad. Although wanting to have the government you voted for is not really nationalism in my book, looks more like democracy.
Cubby @ 15:55,
The UK is taking its time about it, but is almost certain to leave in some fashion or another before too long. So I don’t believe your “if” is at all likely. Too much at stake down south. Corbyn Labour and all.
(The strategy of trying to prevent it, as Nicola has been pursuing, was necessary in order to make our own transition out of the UK much easier to sell. Personally a hard border between Scotland & England doesn’t bother me so much, but might others. It has been the right and responsible thing to do, but ultimately it will fail. I reckon Nicola herself knows that fine, but has to try anyway.)
So the indisputable fact that we are still “in” at the moment really offers no security at all. We can remain “in”, but in order to do so we have (in terms of my analogy) to grow a pair of wings.
Or like the Irish, grow a backbone.
But whatever, we have to do something proactively about it soon, not merely let things continue to happen while we look on, With likely consequences as DMH @ 16:03 mentions.
So I reckon Breeks‘ concerns are by no means empty ones.
No, Breeks.
Not ‘technically’ true, it is FACTUALLY true.
Trying hard to rubbish something which ain’t your wee pet project again huh ?
As Cubby says, WE AINT LET THE EU YET.
Scotsgov can put a dissolution motion to Holyrood at any moment right up to the moment of Ukexit proof, and the treaty of union is over.
Maybe you should quote my ENTIRE post, rather than the bit you hope suits your own narrative huh?
I see nothing to suggest the SNP Scotsgov are failing Scotland over the indy issue.
Just because YOU do not know the plan, and it may not be YOUR plan, does not mean they have no plan.
You now look totally desperate to be proved right, not a good look.
The BBC did not one bit enjoy Scotland’s First Minister’s speech and I think over the course of the evening we’ll see why, the word Scotland was spoken far too much for them
By gosh she does have a bit of power when she decides to Gee the people up, Whitehall won’t be liking her much either
Thankfully the FM does have security people with her
SilverDarling
I’m assuming the Scottish Government is aware of the lay of the land.
link to opil.ouplaw.com
Unilateral Denunciation of Treaties: The Vienna Convention and the International Court of Justice
link to jstor.org
Treaty Denunciation and “Withdrawal” from Customary International Law: An Erroneous Analogy with Dangerous Consequences
link to yalelawjournal.org
Denunciation, Termination and Survival: The Interplay of Treaty Law and International Investment Law
link to researchgate.net
geeo @ 16:33:
Hmmm. You can plant a flag at the top of a hill, or pass a million radical motions through Parliament, but without a significant groundswell of popular support throughout the country, it’s an empty exercise in futility.
Even worse, it’s actively self-destructive, because it could very easily look to most people as empty posturing, and become a laughing-stock. All that assiduous efforts to convince the undecided that the SG and SNP are a safe pair of hands.
If there were already a substantial degree of clear public support, such actions could well be transformational, but at ~50:50 it’s a bust. Like Catalonia. We need to avoid that.
OK, there’s a chicken-and-egg argument here. I have advocated that myself. We can’t simply rely on events to convince, there has to be something inspirational in the mix besides. But it has to be well-grounded. Not an easy thing to do.
More SNP BAD guff from you, RJS.
“Or like the Irish, grow a backbone”.
“But whatever, we have to do something proactively about it soon, not merely let things continue to happen while we look on”
…………
So, you are stating that Scotsgov are not doing anything, and have no backbone ?
Despite the fact you have no fucking clue what the SNP have been doing recently, your default position is always SNP BAD or SNP USELESS.
The Scotsgov has spent a lot of time and effort backing WM into a corner with high sided walls, to the point where they can simply dissolve the Treaty of Union to protect Scottish Interests (including and particularly, Scots Law and Scots Peoples Sovereignty) should WM refuse to play ball with Scotsgov demands.
If you cannot see that, you have not bern looking hard enough.
Have you not noticed the severe hardening of SNP politicians statements about how Scotland WILL NOT BE removed from the EU against the Will of our SOVEREIGN people ?
Anyone with a brain cell can realise, that to say that with such firmness and confidence, there must be a reason to be so confident.
Especially knowing that the Scottish people would crucify the SNP electorally, if they were found to be just spewing empty rhetoric.
I know who i put my faith and trust in, and it sure as hell ain’t someone like you, with your constant SNP BAD mantra.
@CBB
Thanks for that. Do those references not apply to independent countries only?
My question is whether the Scottish Parliament can do it. My worry is that the Unionists would argue the Scottish Parliament would not be deemed competent. If not the Scottish Parliament, then who? The Scottish people as RP and others always tell us, hence the referendum.
But if we elect a government with this specific mandate then surely the Scottish Parliament can speak for us on this matter?
The law is very much on Scotland’s side, IMHO, but reality is normative and defined through narrative. One thing to consider, given our dysfunctional media, how are folk supposed to know this stuff unless they have the advantage of already being in-the-know?
Second Report on the Law of Treaties by Mr. G.G. Fitzmaurice, Special Rapporteur
legal.un.org/ilc/documentation/english/a_cn4_107.pdf
TREATY EXIT
link to law.umich.edu
Can the UK unilaterally revoke its notification to exit the EU?
link to ukandeu.ac.uk
How to Exit the Backstop
link to policyexchange.org.uk
CameronB Brodie.
Great stuff there.
Of course, likes of RJS here just plow on with his SNP BAD/USELESS mantra regardless.
geeo @ 16:52
Oh, do grow up. No intelligent person reading what I wrote could possibly conclude anything of the sort. So you’re either a dumb f*ck or just punch-drunk and looking for an argument. Or both.
@geeo
@CameronB Brodie
I feel it’s all going rather well at the moment, big snowball getting even bigger
geeo @ 16:57,
The classical response of the would-be bully with the fragile ego. Can’t respond to cogent arguments, rapidly descends to cheap insults instead, and tries to garner others to back up his abuse.
You’re so, so obvious.
Interesting to see Sturgeon at the ‘People’s Vote’ march today, speaking alongside Michael Heseltine and having selfies with Alistair Campbell. Seems the SNP now think it is fine to stand together with political opponents on a cross-party basis, one could even say they now believe it is best to be ‘BetterTogether’!
@HYUFD
You’re not very bright, are you?
SilverDarling
I doubt I need remind you I’m not an expert in international law. No doubt there will be some arcane view of English law’s supremacy and cultural inviolability that will screw everything up. Exceptionally. Again.
digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1669&context=fss_papers
Suspension or Termination of Treaties on Grounds of Breach
link to brill.com
Commentary on the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties
Article 56: Denunciation Of Or Withdrawal From A Treaty Containing No Provision Regarding Termination, Denunciation Or Withdrawal
link to brill.com
Some Lingering Questions about Article 60 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties
link to pdfs.semanticscholar.org
Let the infighting commence.
Flower of Scotland Clearly bright enough to silence you from having any meaningful response
Nicola in london
link to twitter.com
Well that puts paid to conspiracy theories about the BBC keeping the snp out of public sight Nicola headlined the 5oclock news.
@Craig Murray 11.20am
If N Sturgeon turned up at AUOB or HOF marches the media would call it SNP.
All the infighting after the AUOB March last year was probably a warning for her to stay away.
She has put Scotland first in her speech in London. Good for her.
Ok, this is the last comment before I go make the tea.
The moral right and the mandate is there for another referendum, but we have seen how intransigent Theresa May can be ‘running down the clock’ to deal with things. I can see that happening with regard to a referendum so how do we get beyond the ‘now is not the time’ legally?
I don’t get the insults to others here, there is a huge disconnect between what we talk about here and what is happening out there. Honestly, most people could not care less and like CBB says getting the narrative to change in the media is half the battle. The SNP might be hardening their approach but they have to get that over to a wider public.
Did you see that daft Aaron Bastani going on about the SNP giving up on independence? He is a political activist and he either doesn’t have a clue what they are doing or is malicious in his intent so their message needs to get out there. There is really no need to be so angry with people deemed not pure enough in message or thought.
Many of us just want to know what is happening.
and some more
@NicolaSturgeon: “It is too easy to feel a sense of despair, but my message is a message of hope”
link to twitter.com
The news channels are something else, the biggest demonstration and outpouring of complaint from people to have taken place in London with politicians of all stripes standing together in solidarity against the incompetence and dictatorship of Theresa May and her cabal and yet the news channels find literally anything else they can to report on, even down to somebody said something about Donald Trump in America sometime, who cares! real stuff is happening to our nations right now show the damn pictures, let’s hear the damn audio
This behaviour by the *British* media is really shocking and one can only come to the conclusion they were instructed to minimise all coverage of this event of peoples of four nations agreeing that the UK stinks and saying so loudly
Maybe if all the protesters went to another country to do this they’d get the correct amount of coverage instead of two minutes each flaming hour
I am well clued up on Donald Trump and all his pals and his family and friends though while waiting for news about what’s happening in my own back yard
HYUFD
How many vulnerable people have met premature deaths because of the neo-fascist policies of your party, Toryboy?
Help please. For a discussion I’m having with someone on fb, could someone please put in very simple terms how Scotland pays more to Westminster than we get back and how we are NOT subsidised.
Thanks
HYUFD@ whenever.
Don’t be a FUD.
You know it makes sense.
CameronBBrodie With unemployment half the level it was in 2010 many more are in employment under this government and more is being put into the NHS, indeed my father recently had successful surgery to remove a tumour from his bowel. None of that of course has anything to do with the point in question I originally made, Sturgeon now lining up with New Labour and centrist Tories ie the very same people who formed the bulk of the pro Union campaign in 2014, to try and stop Brexit
Last last comment.
Surely we should use this site to rehearse our arguments for the next battle?
If we have challenged every wrong assertion politely and answered as many questions as possible here then we are prepared for the stalls and doorsteps. I cannot see anyone being persuaded after being insulted, told that they are a ("Tractor" - Ed) or that they are stupid.
if they are not worth arguing with do not argue.
@tatu3 5:35pm
Scotland possesses 34% of UK wealth, new figures released by the BBC
That’s 34% in a country with 8% of the population of the UK
Pretty easy maths
Dr Jim
Thank you
Had (past tense) respect for journalist Carole Cadwalladr…then checked out her tweets today re PV march….wow…equates patriotism to hearing the playing of Jerusalem, she tweeted ” Love this. #PeopesVoteMarch playing Jerusalem. You want patriotism @nigel_farage. It’s right here”….. mentions David Lammy’s speech…Tom Watson’s speech….AND then Caroline Lucas speech, she tweeted ” Huge cheers for @CarolineLucas who above all others has shown real leadership through this debacle”.
However on Nicola Sturgeon….NADA from Carole….well how right Nicola was when she stated in her speech today at PV re Scotland’s voice not being heard….from BOTH sides it would seem.
(Lord) Andrew Adonis tweeted ” England Arise” while showing picture of marchers today in London ( which included Scots marchers…. are they too arising for England Andrew ?… and I am sure some Welsh marchers were there too ) …England Arise is apparently a poem by Edward Carpenter….BUT NOT I THINK APPROPRIATE IN THIS CONTEXT….BUT IS APPROPRIATE IN ORIGINAL VOTE RESULT PERHAPS….considering twas an English PM who instigated this…AND English people who voted to get the majority for Leave to win the referendum….
They just cannot help themselves can they…..flabbergasted I am not as it is,as per, par for the course……I could say so much more about why it may or may not be folly to be seemingly used and still abused in helping promote this PV while all of those UKOK champions for remain STILL NOT getting it as to why tis Scotland who has and is still being shafted in being taken out of EU against it’s will AND STILL being ignored and disregarded by those champions of the People’s Vote………UK vote you say ?….No tis England who will get what they want whether they be Remainers or Leavers..unless we in Scotland choose to get our freedom…with or without those who told us they loved us and wanted US to remain in their UKOK…..but only as long as we, in Scotland, want what they, in England, want !
Another rant over
“Tatu3 says:
23 March, 2019 at 5:35 pm
Help please. For a discussion I’m having with someone on fb, could someone please put in very simple terms how Scotland pays more to Westminster than we get back and how we are NOT subsidised.
Thanks”
Tatu3.
Here’s a YT video of a Tory MP in the HoC actually admitting that England doesn’t subsidise Scotland.
link to m.youtube.com
Clapper57 5:46pm
Yeah but a true rant
SilverDarling says: 23 March, 2019 at 2:38 pm:
” … Not to forget that once out of Europe we lose their protection and are subject to all of the Henry VIII powers to be brought in by May’s or whoever’s government.”
Don’t be silly. There was no union when Henry VIII made his laws, Just as there was no Union when he English had their Magna Carta and a few other bits of English law that Westminster has imposed or attempted to impose.
These are things to use against Westminster when the time comes. None of which are mentioned anywhere in the Treaty of Union but what is mentioned in the Treaty of Union is that both Scots and English law must remain independent forever.
Thus the imposition of English law, or the attempt thereof, is , unlike the sovereignty of the People of Scotland, more proof of Westminster ignoring the Treaty of Union and appointing itself the country of England parliament devolving England’s powers to Scotland.
Unfortunately these cannot be used by our Celtic brethren in Wales and Ireland because they were parts of the Kingdom of England from before the Treaty of Union.
However, without doubt, the loss of Scotland will see Westminster weakened to the extent that the unification of Ireland, if it has not happened before Scottish Independence, will open the door to Wales to also exit English dominion.
Nigel Farage’s 100 people march is down to less than 50 now
It’s symbolic though apparently and counts more because of it’s symbolicalness, I think you sort of have to imagine, Nah who’s he kidding, Bampot!
It’s beyond hopeless trying to Sctosplain to certain commenters on here, but I’ll give it a go.
Nicola Sturgeon is the FM of Scotland, the whole of Scotland, those that voted No and Yes, Scotland voted to remain in the UK and voted to remain in the EU. The FM stands on a platform with others in the UK (as Scotland forms the UK and is part of the UK at this moment) to ‘remain’ in the EU, as is obvious to anyone who isn’t trying desperately to infer that her voice in London should not be heard today.
As someone upthread mentioned right now the polling for Scotland to remain within the EU is higher than it was at the time of the EU vote. Which means that Scotland the nation is against leaving the EU. Hard and No deal UKexit are not options for this nation and the movement toward those two possibilities is bringing the whole of Scotland together.
As the leader of her party the SNP, the FM is also the leader of the movement for Scotland’s self determination, the No voters vote for NS and the SNP in Scotland whilst not necessarily agreeing that independence is the best way forward.
When the SNP were in minority government as we have proportional representation, they worked with all party’s to get legislation through, including the Tory party.
To state that somehow standing of a platform of a second EU vote for the whole of the UK is somehow ‘teaming up wi Tories’ and to suggest that this amounts to the FM agreeing with the premise of the No campaign back in 2014 whilst ignoring the ‘context’ of why she is doing so is to seek to stir shite for the sake of ‘trolling’ the independence supporters on this site and is a mark of a mind incapable of understanding nuance and context for what can only be some sort of cheap thrill.
We understand ‘why’ she is there, why she needs to be there, she represents Scotland and in relation to UKexit she is right to do whatever is necessary to protect our interests. The FM is doing her job.
Which is more than that Tory twatting PM has ever done in the last 2 and half years for either England or the UK as a whole.
We’ll have no more of your condescending pish on here you jumped up little fuckwit.
Now fuck of and mind yer ain business.
Dr Jim @ 17:44,
Interesting stats in a nutshell. It’s just that inconvenient piddly 8% which is the problem, as seen from London! =laugh=
And irony of ironies, contrary to the pertinent history of which GB upthread reminds us, it’s not Scotland which is now ungovernable. Au contraire.
Reversed mirror image indeed.
Give him an inch an he takes a mile. The trouble with English utilitarians is they think the empirical world is an adequate description of reality. They care little of why things are the way they are, privileging end-utility instead of a more holistic social value. This masks complex causation and prevents effective government, subsequently maintaining inherited privilege and undermining the health of the social fabric. Tories are also masters at manipulating figures (see GERS).
HYUFD
Why don’t you just admit you don’t respect universal human rights and that you’re a bit of a path-dependent neo-fascist, Toryboy.
‘Well that puts paid to conspiracy theories about the BBC keeping the snp out of public sight Nicola headlined the 5oclock news.’
One swallow does not make a spring.
Craig Murray at 1121am,
I know for a fact that NS was at the rally on Calton Hill prior to the referendum. I know this because I met her. It was an accidental and wholly unplanned meeting. Smaller in real life etc…etc.. (that’s a joke btw, in case anybody gets hysterical). And of course I’ve crossed her path may times at conference and saw her at the hydro shindig.
It is about winning friends and influencing people, and that is what NS is doing today. We need friends in London (who hate brexit with a passion) and England, to help us over the line this time. We want people down there to be on our side.
I do agree however, that sometimes in the past their was a lack of SNP MP’s and MSP’s who bothered to turn up at these things. I was at the Stirling rally last year, and Keith Brown was on the march and at the rally afterwards. So maybe they got the message.
BBC Radio Four on 6pm news headlines says 4.4 million have signed the Revoke petition. Of course they then immediately told anxious hordes that 400k or so signed the Leave petition: subtext get going Leavers! Show these Remainers who is right. Who is on our side? Not BBC!
Robert Peffers Scotland has to vote for independence of course and of course in Northern Ireland you also have the issue of about a million Protestant hardline DUP voting Unionists and in Wales 49% in 1997 did not even vote for a Welsh Assembly, more than have ever voted at any election for the nationalist Plaid Cymru whose highest total in any Welsh election was just 30% in the 1999 Welsh Assembly elections
K1 at 606pm
Totally agree. Whenever the paid liars at the state run propaganda outfit (BBC) get put under pressure, they usually do something like this. A token gesture. For a few days, it will seem like they get the message. As soon as the attention and ‘heat’ is off, they will go back to their propagandist ways as usual.
Over and over and over again, the BBC have been shown to be completely anti SNP and anti Scotland. That will never change, as Westminster (and not the license payers)pay their wages.
Aye, pretty sure I held Nicola’s jaiket when the dignatories were having their photo shoot on the Royal Mile, afore that wonderful trek to Calton Hill.
@Clapper57, 5.46
(Lord) Andrew Adonis tweeted ” England Arise” while showing picture of marchers today in London ( which included Scots marchers…. are they too arising for England Andrew ?… and I am sure some Welsh marchers were there too )
Yes, Clapper, they are. There is only England now. You need to channel W.E. Henley (/sarc)
“Ever the faith endures,
England, my England;-
‘Take and break us: we are yours,
England, my own!
Life is good, and joy runs high
Between English earth and sky:”
My antidote to this will be to attend the Hope over Fear rally tomorrow. Now is definitely the time to board the lifeboat.
K1 @ 18:02,
Amen to all that.
It’s worth keeping in mind that “protecting our interests” is a multi-faceted thing. Not only doing your duty for the nation as a whole, as you say, which incidentally builds support at home among potential converts for the upcoming indy proposition, but also establishing trust and friendship over on the Continent as independent actors with whom they can readily do business once they finally give up on the UK as a whole.
tatu3
raid the indy poster boy – colin dunn for ammunition in the meme war – e.g.
and many more therein
@SilverDarling says: 23 March, 2019 at 3:07 pm:
” … I like your confidence and faith and would hope it is true.”
Ah! But it is true and geeo just quoted you the proof that it is true. I’ll reinforce geeo’s proof for you. In order to sign a Treaty of Union of kingdoms the kingdoms signing that treaty must be equally legally sovereign.
” … I don’t believe it is that simple.” It doesn’t matter what you think unless you can offer proof or logical argument. You offer neither.
” … I think we are dealing with a mendacious and ruthless UK government who will try anything, tying us up in court proceedings that might extend beyond the next set of elections.”
Neither does it matter what you think – where is your proofs or logic behind your thoughts?
” … The Scottish government only has that mandate for this parliamentary session and they have to carry the people with them.”
Well no they don’t – Holyrood voted for it and it stands unless Holyrood votes otherwise. However, on legal points any organisation or even a private individual can bring a court case. In any case the courts have already upheld the, “Scottish Claim of Right and that includes the so called United Kingdom Supreme Court.
So just what would prevent the SNP telling Westminster the Treaty of Union is over? It really is as simple as that.
Just a few days ago a Tory Government Cabinet Minister stood up in the Westminster Parliament and said that in any International treaty either side can end the treaty any time they like.
Mind you he was talking about Westminster telling the EU they were ending the Treaty that Westminster signed up to but the point is he is 100% correct and the Treaty of Union is a live International Treaty.
Mind you if the numptie claims it isn’t then the Treaty of Union is no longer in force anyway and Scotland walks away.
@RJS@5.11pm.
As soon as you put up a coherent argument, i shall discuss it.
As for claims of ‘insults’
Quote me insulting you ?
Sayong you are full of SNP BAD is not ‘resorting yo insults’
However, 11 minutes earlier (5.00pm) YOU said THIS to me:
“So you’re either a dumb f*ck or just punch-drunk”
Oops…stinking hypocracy from you as usual.
The BBC can not honestly claim to support the interests of Scotland, as their royal charter compels them to promote a ‘One Nation’ world view. In carrying out this legal obligation, the BBC in Scotland undermines Scotland’s public health and can not be considered a liberal institution as it is beyond the reproach and sanction of the Scottish electorate. It is the mouthpiece of institutional British nationalism, the contemporary form of which is an expansionist form of English nationalism (see Brexit).
#DissolveTheUnion
@Gfaetheblock says:23 March, 2019 at 3:24 pm:
” … I always thought that brexit makes independence a harder sell than both Scotland and rUK being in the EU. Maybe the FM has realised the same?”
Oh! Look! Here’s another one who, “Always thought”, There’s a lot of it about today here on Wings.
@ Silver darling.
IMO, adding the Henry VIII powers to the Withdrawal Bill was an attempt at shielding the Crown from criticism once the sh## hits the fan. Problem is, having witnessed the sycophantic fawning of May when she meets any Royal, far less the Queen, it is hard to imagine that usurping the Royal Perogative needed the prior per mission from the usurped.
In desperation some clutch at straws held out by the Unionist system; petitions, marches and god knows what. ONLY INDEPENDENCE MATTERS TO US. We must not be led down blind alleys. Scotland has been tricked by charlatans into many in its history. It’s what happens to colonial possessions. Enough of this compliant nonsense. Let the British state go to hell.
It is Now or Never.
Sorry, should have read. ‘It is hard to imagine that usurping the Royal prerogative didn’t first need permission from the usurped.’
@ CBB.
Aye, but it also requires them to inform and educate.
Could someone explain in simple terms the difference between”Scottish citizens” and the “sovereign people of Scotland”?
geeo
I think you really need to be a committed SNP supporter and have nerves of steel, not to be pannin’ it a bit. I know I am, if I’m honest. Life is very unpredictable and with the clowns that are running the show in Westminster, anything is possible. 🙁 But, it’s important not allow fear to crush hope. 😉
When You Fear Making the “Wrong” Decision
link to tinybuddha.com
The Biopsychosocial Model: Causes Of Pathological Anxiety
link to mentalhelp.net
How Does Anxiety Short Circuit the Decision-Making Process?
Anxiety disengages neurons in the prefrontal cortex linked to decision-making.
link to psychologytoday.com
7 Tips on How to Kick the Habit of Indecisiveness
Learn how to make better decisions.
link to psychologytoday.com
@SilverDarling says:23 March, 2019 at 4:22 pm:
” … Could an action be raised to find out if the Treaty of the Union can be unilaterally revoked by the Scottish Parliament? Is that something that has been done before? “
Are you for real?
There is absolutely no need for an action to be raised in court, (any court), as it is a long standing and well established principle that In International Treaties, (and especially bipartite treaties), the parties have the right to declare the treaty over.
I just replied to you upthread that one on Mrs May’s cabinet ministers just put that on the Hansard Records a few days age when he stated that in the Westminster Debating Chamber. Let it be noted that no one, government or opposition, disputed it.
It is a fact of international law. Let me direct you to an international treaty that the Kingdom of England Broke with impunity.
The Edinburgh-Northampton Treaty of 1328:-
link to scottisharchivesforschools.org
There are many thousands of international treaties made and broken throughout history. That is the nature of international treaties they often get rescinded and sometimes for no other reason than one party wants out of an unsatisfactory agreement.
By the way here is another legal agreement that gets broken regularly. The Marriage vows – both legal and often also sworn by God. Is this to be another case of, “Except for viewers in Scotland”?
So there you go – there is absolutely nothing to stop The Kingdom of Scotland just saying to Westminster – That’s it we have had enough The Treaty of Union is Over., and do you want to know the really hilarious bit?
Scotland will not be leaving the United Kingdom – Scotland will be legally disuniting it and the hilarious bit is there has never been a legal Kingdom of England parliament since 1 May 1707. Westminster is not legally the Kingdom of England parliament and thus can not legally claim to be either the continued, as they have tried to brainwash everyone, rUnited Kingdom. They came into the Union as the Kingdom of England and not as, “The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Ireland”.
Legally, when a legal partnership ends the legal state returns to, “The Status Quo Ante”, (go look it up). They came into the Union as the Kingdom of England and that is The Status Quo Ante.
So The Kingdom of England will be left without a legally elected parliament and – guess what? The Queen of England is legally Sovereign and she will legally be in charge.
Two entities, one Union, one entity of the Union decides not to be in that Union, no Union, I don’t believe you can have a Union of one
well not that I’ve ever heard of
geeo @ 18:36,
Oh dear, even more childish argumentative guff. Your trademark. And not just with me either.
But I’m content to let everyone read upthread everything I wrote and judge for themselves. They are astute enough. And also to judge your responses accordingly. Don’t let me stop you from revealing more of yourself than maybe you realise.
(Oh, and that resolution of yours the other day to totally ignore me doesn’t seem to have lasted very long.)
@CameronB Brodie at 7.21
Very well put.
It’s a strange situation for anybody seeking independence for Scotland. We’re all waiting for the starting pistol but tbh we’ve been at ‘On your marks….Set….’ for so long now it feels like normality. The extension and the obvious effect it will have in delaying the call for iref2 almost (almost) came as a relief. We all know timing is absolutely crucial which is what makes the approach of high noon at Westminster all the more nerve wracking.
Breeks comment earlier about squandering THE golden opportunity has some merit. NS will be more aware of this than anybody else. But we must still hold ranks and wait. And wait, if necessary.
I’m pro independence, very pro Nicola Sturgeon and ambivalent / mildly critical of the SNP. It’s the first one that’s important.
Tatu 3 @5.35
I like to introduce these folk to Wings by giving them a link to link to wingsoverscotland.com I like this oldie too link to wingsoverscotland.com
You could also send link to youtube.com which might lead them to the whole Journey to Yes series.
Robert Peffers There were Welsh MPs at Westminster at the time of the Act of Union alongside English MPs, in the event Scotland voted for independence it would thus return to being the Parliament of England and Wales. The Civil War and Glorious Revolution had already affirmed even before the Act of Union the British monarchy was a constitutional not an absolute one.
In the case of Northern Ireland it may be more difficult as the Irish Parliament only united with Westminster in 1800, however that was a separate Act of Union from the 1800 Act of Union anyway so Northern Ireland would still retain representation at Westminster on the basis of that Act
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 23 March, 2019 at 4:28 pm:
” … So the indisputable fact that we are still “in” at the moment really offers no security at all. We can remain “in”, but in order to do so we have (in terms of my analogy) to grow a pair of wings.
Or like the Irish, grow a backbone.”
Absolute balderdash, Robert, both you and Breeks are not nearly so clever as you imagine yourselves to be. I’ve quoted this on Wings several times of recent weeks but it seems to have flown over the usual suspects heads.
One of Theresa’s Cabinet ministers stood up in the Westminster debating chamber and stated that under international law any signer of an international treaty could legally withdraw from the international treaty at any time.
Now what I didn’t bother to post is what was his basis for that claim. You see I knew that certain posters would not want to know that and would just ignore it – and both you and Breeks, among others, did just that.
So here you go – here is the basis for that cabinet minister’s claim:-
link to politico.eu
Any party in an international treaty has the right to withdraw from the treaty. Thus if it is a bipartite treaty the treaty is terminated. There it is, black upon white, in international law.
It the case of The UK exit from the EU the EU cannot prevent the United Kingdom’s exit. However, it seems, “Except for viewers in Scotland”. Except, of course if the usual suspects are claiming that the Treaty of Union is not applicable? Are you claiming that? If not what other reason are you putting forward for the Scottish Government not being covered by international law?
geeo says:
23 March, 2019 at 4:33 pm
You now look totally desperate ….
I AM TOTALLY DESPERATE. I so desperate I could fkn weep! I want to stay in Europe as an Independent Country. Not fk about month, after month, after month, promoting a “British” People’s Vote which might reset Brexit, and compromises Scotland’s sovereign remain mandate and popular majority which should, by now, have broken back of this rotten Union.
Desperate? Why the fk aren’t you desperate?
@Robert J. Sutherland says:23 March, 2019 at 4:50 pm:
” … Scotsgov can put a dissolution motion to Holyrood at any moment
Hmmm. You can plant a flag at the top of a hill, or pass a million radical motions through Parliament, but without a significant groundswell of popular support throughout the country, it’s an empty exercise in futility.”
Claptrap. Westminster has been enacting unpopular legal changes quite regularly during their current time in office. Is this just another case of, “Except for viewers in Scotland”, again?
” … Even worse, it’s actively self-destructive, because it could very easily look to most people as empty posturing, and become a laughing-stock.”
Hilarious! I know who is rapidly becoming a laughing stock, Robert. You are.
For goodness sake, Robert, no one, (well except for the usual suspects), has been other than supportive of Nicola, the SG and the SNP but many, and even you and the other usual suspects, have been urging them to do something prematurely and thus failing.
” … If there were already a substantial degree of clear public support”, And tell me Robert, what is your evidence that there isn’t, “a substantial degree of clear public support”? Oh! Wait! There’s always the opinion polls in the anti-indy MSM and Broadcasters. They’ll be dead accurate then?
” … at 50:50 it’s a bust.” So who is it you are quoting as claiming it is 50-50, Robert?
” … Like Catalonia. We need to avoid that.”
But! But! But! The case of Catalonia and Spain bears no comparison to that of Scotland and the Kingdom of England.
Catalonia is legally a semi-Autonomous region of the country of Spain and Spain has a legal written constitution. Now that does not negate Catalonia’s case it is simply not comparable.
Scotland is legally a equally sovereign partner kingdom along with the Kingdom of England and there is indeed a written constitution of the United Kingdom – It is called The Treaty of Union that just also happens to be a legal international treaty that constituted the United Kingdom.
Your consistent negativity speaks volumes about your mind set.
HYUFD
You mentioned earlier that there were a million DUP voting protestants in the north of Ireland. The DUP received 296000 votes in 2017. I wouldnt allow their disproportionate influence over current events to cloud your judgement if you are banking on them to keep up the mirage of some kind of union in order to justify the greater England fantasies of your ruling class.
In 2016 i voted leave in the eu ref down here in england. I thought it would speed up Scottish independence. Sadly i may have misjudged my fellow countrymen/women. Frankly i dont think they have the guts to stand on their own two feet and vote for indy. With hindsight maybe i should have voted remain.
silverbuick says:
23 March, 2019 at 7:10 pm
Could someone explain in simple terms the difference between”Scottish citizens” and the “sovereign people of Scotland”?
Aye. People. Humans. People who were born in Scotland, and those who choose to make Scotland their home. Simple.
Breeks
It’s shredding my nerves but I think the effort and responsible* approach being taken, might be important in supporting and winning the emotional trust of No voters who voted in 2014 without conviction, i.e. non-yoons. Intuition is a powerful political force, but I’m really no expert and I’m very out of practice. I could be reading this entirely wrong.
* It would be irresponsible and a dereliction of duty of the Scottish government, not to seek to prevent Brexit, even though it is a product of English political culture. The moral objection to interfering in another nation’s political culture, does not apply in light of the damage Brexit will do to Scotland. The source of initial moral damage and legal infraction (see Treaty of Union and international law), rests outwith Scotland’s legal control (see English legal culture).
Robert Peffers says:
23 March, 2019 at 7:54 pm
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 23 March, 2019 at 4:28 pm:
Absolute balderdash, Robert, both you and Breeks are not nearly so clever as you imagine yourselves to be. I’ve quoted this on Wings several times of recent weeks but it seems to have flown over the usual suspects heads…
Aye Robert, obviously we’re not clever enough to keep up with your stellar intellect. We’re a right pair of dummies by comparison.
Tell me again why Scotland is only sovereign “sometimes”, and that those scallywags in Europe are only pretending Scotland isn’t sovereign when it’s shut outside and excluded from Brexit negotiations, denied a voice to speak for itself but have our national interersts sold out by Westminster in our absence. But right enough, Legal Persoinality is just a concept I made up isnt it?
It’s lucky we’ve got that magic kind of Constitutional Sovereignty which only we can see and which doesnt need International recognition or ratified legal status.
Artyhetty
Sovereign people have a legal identity that is the source of state power, the people of a Parliamentary sovereignty, not at all. The “popular sovereignty” embedded in Scotland’s historic ‘constitution’, is regarded as the pinnacle of constitutional form by (continental) scholars, as it embodies the source of state power within the individual. The state’s action is, subsequently, limited by the interests of the individual, not the Crown through parliament. A parliament that is bound by an unwritten constitution and where constitutional law is made up on-the-hoof.
Popular sovereignty is the foundation of personal liberty. It should instill confidence in those who chose to settle in Scotland, as they will constitutionally have the same political AGENCY as those who can trace their ancestry all the way back to Mel Gibson. 😉
CBB@7.21pm.
I have nerves of steel, and a powerful conviction, driven by studying facts, and reading the game being played, that yes, the SNP Scotsgov are absolutely on point here.
There has been absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise that shakes that conviction.
I also believe the current SNP leadership share that conviction.
Anyone who thinks they are making mistakes/not trying/are incompetent (aye you, RJS and Breeks) are not as astute as they think they are.
I am no sycophant here, all my assessments are based on events, historical referencing and research and a deep understanding of politics.
Unless something tangible happens to shake my conviction, why would i allow that to happen ?
geeo says:
23 March, 2019 at 9:04 pm
CBB@7.21pm.
I have nerves of steel, and a powerful conviction, driven by studying facts, and reading the game being played…
Now I am weeping.
One thing I think we can all agree on is that May’s time as Prime Minister is coming to a close. She has blown it big time and now has both wings of her party against her.
I doubt she will survive until the end of next week.
That changes everything of course, parliament cannot just sit around if she goes waiting on the Tory party having a leadership election as there’s just not the time for that before 12th April.
I do believe it’s all coming to a head now and even if she doesn’t go then choices have to be made before the 12th.
Watching all the events unfold in the last couple of months I see how much things have changed, back then I thought that there was just a small chance of a general election but one seems much more likely now.
As for no deal, I make that the least likely outcome now. It is so obvious that parliament are against such an outcome and will not allow it to happen. I’ll accept that it still can happen but only if MP’s do nothing and I don’t believe they are that stupid.
Even Robert Peston who has been pushing No deal for weeks now has started to back peddle on that assertion, maybe 5 million signatures on a petition and 1 million marchers for a 2nd vote have contributed to that.
link to archive.fo
It now looks very likely that we will get these “indicative votes” next week, that looks certain as even May might have her own on Tuesday before the opposition have theirs on Wednesday, I’m curious as to whether they will have a vote on revoking Article 50 or not? I think not.
One thing is absolutely clear and that is the ultimate Brexit destination is as unsure as ever but looks less and less likely to be No deal, in my opinion anyway for what it’s worth.
Peffers @ 6.39
Literally no idea what you mean. Please explain.
Bobp says:
23 March, 2019 at 8:38 pm
In 2016 i voted leave in the eu ref down here in england. I thought it would speed up Scottish independence. Sadly i may have misjudged my fellow countrymen/women. Frankly i dont think they have the guts to stand on their own two feet and vote for indy. With hindsight maybe i should have voted remain.
Ahhh, agent provocateur – what you think or do is of little consequence. You may have missed the fact that a 2nd Independence Vote has not happened. Yet!
O/T
Nicola’s speech today in London
link to twitter.com
BREAKING: A full blown cabinet coup is under way tonight to remove Theresa May as prime minister
link to twitter.com
@SilverDarling says:23 March, 2019 at 4:54 pm:
” … My question is whether the Scottish Parliament can do it.”
You just haven’t been listening, SilverDarling.
There is a cast iron legal case in favour of the Kingdom of Scotland. I note you speak of, “Countries”, but the United Kingdom is not, and never has been a country, It is composed of two kingdoms that between then are composed of four countries. The clue is in the title, “The United Kingdom”.
So let’s do a brief recap. In 1706/7 two independent Kingdoms signed an international Treaty Of Union. They were the Kingdom of Scotland and the three country Kingdom of England.
That Treaty of Union constituted The United Kingdom – It is thus a written Constitution and it has several Articles of Union and each Article of Union is, in itself, a legally binding agreement between the two kingdoms.
When two of the same things unite they become a bigger unit of the same units. For example two oranges plus two oranges adds up to four oranges. Two apples plus two apples adds up to four apples. However, two oranges added to two apples adds up to a fruit salad. So the resultant of two independent kingdoms is a united kingdom not a united country of four countries.
Now to be legally able to sign an international treaty both kingdoms must be equally sovereign. Neither is a master kingdom. It is exactly what it says it is on the tin – a united kingdom called The United Kingdom.
Which brings us back to those Articles of Union that are each a legal agreement on their own. One such states that the laws of each kingdom must remain forever independent and that being so these, “Rules of Law”, as they are know are incompatible because the English rule of law makes the monarchy of England legally sovereign but in 1688 English law stated that the Monarchs of England had to legally delegate their sovereignty to the parliament of England but in 1707 the parliament of England went into permeant recession.
The rule of law of the Kingdom of Scotland had been internationally recognised as having changed in the Declaration of Arbroath. That change not only declared Scotland an independent kingdom but declared the people, not the monarch, were sovereign. Thus the two legal systems could never be compatible.
This is why the monarch is called the Queen of England but in Scotland is termed The Queen of Scots.
Now I mentioned that the Parliament of the Kingdom of England went into permanent recession. It is recorded in Hansard.
However, the Kingdom of Scotland was only ever prorogued. That means it was only temporarily in recession and when Winnie Ewing opened Holyrood she did not convene a new parliament she reconvened the old Scottish Parliament. That being so Holyrood is the legal parliament of the Kingdom of Scotland but there has been no Kingdom of England Parliament elected since 30 April 1707. By the Way, it has never been challenged by Westminster that Holyrood was the reconvened Kingdom of Scotland Parliament.
There is much more but I’ll leave that for another time.
The main point being that the United Kingdom is undoubtedly a two kingdom United Kingdom and not either a union of four countries nor, what is worse, he continued old, three country, Parliament of the Kingdom of England. It is legally a partnership of two equally sovereign kingdoms. The problem being that on 1 May 1707 Westminster just carried on as if it were the old Parliament of England . That is until it decided to introduce devolution and by doing so it relegated Scotland to the same status as the two existing dominion countries of England. Yet worse was to follow. Westminster then introduced EVEL, and prevented Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland from interfereing in what Westminster decided is English Only matters. Now about devolution his really is effectively Westminster running the Country of England directly by the Westminster Ministries and devolvine some unimportant English Powers to Scotland, Wales and N.I.
In effect Westminster has made itself England the Master Race that rules everone else but Scotland is legally an equally sovereign partner in the United Kingdom. Scotland has a cast iron legal case and as Holyrood is legally the old Scottish Kingdom parliament it has the right and the authority to tell The Kingdom of England the United Kingdom has ended.
Davie Oga That 292,316 for the DUP was almost 60,000 more than the 238,915 Sinn Fein got.
Northern Ireland has a population of 1.8 million, 48% of whom classify themselves as British (82% of whom are Protestant), 1.6% of whom classify themselves as English Scottish or Welsh and 29% of whom classify themselves as Northern Irish (27% of whom classify themselves as Protestant), with 28% classifying themselves as Irish. So close to 1 million of the 1.8 million NI population classify themselves as British and/or Protestant
Robert Peffers @ 20:35,
You may call it what you like, in your usual dismissive style, RP, but for all your quasi-constitutional bluster. I don’t see the SG/SNP in Holyrood or WM showing any sign of taking your advice on that matter, not in the past and not now. So much for that. So who is the true SNP supporter and who is not, eh? =grin=
As to your absurd suggestion that I’m proposing the SNP do “something premature”, I have actually written the reverse. Empty flag flying and absurdist posturing in Parliament would be exactly that. (Refer to previous para.) As the SNP in place clearly also understand.
I have consistently stated that Nicola is doing exactly what she needs to do, yet somehow that seems to have entirely passed you by in your haste to promote your blinkered self-brew orthodoxy. However, timely action is absolutely essential, and (as I also recently intimated, though you evidently missed that as well), her recent statement that “no clarity is also a kind of clarity” is a very encouraging indication she at least understands that well and is getting ready. I expect that soon you will be criticising her too for a premature rush to action! =laugh=
Contrary to your evident misunderstanding, I have also consistently argued that there is latent support for indy but that it self-evidently must also be nourished and inspired. External events alone just won’t do. I’m one of many (on here and elsewhere) who have indeed judged with good reason that the SNP needlessly lost the plot back in 2017 (some say even 2016) through a lack of addressing those essential factors. That includes many longstanding members of the SNP, like it or not. (As you clearly don’t, and hate to hear.) Yet by your rigid logic, the SNP must be stuffed full of SNP-BAAD people, from the likes of Tasmina, George and Keith all the way down! All recently wanting something done and soon.
You really don’t help the cause, you know, when you come on as holier-than-the-Pope like this.
@Essexexile
You’re talking shite, or never read newspapers or watch the TV. A very quick browse through the London rags pages today gives:
“The high-profile attendees will include Labour Deputy leader Tom Watson, Scotland’s first minister Nicola Sturgeon” (Express)
“Speakers who addressed a rally outside Parliament included Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, London Mayor Sadiq Khan and opposition Labour deputy leader Tom Watson. ” (Daily Mail)
“Land reform is, if memory serves me, number three on First Nicola (paywall) …” (Telegraph Cochrane)
“Senior politicians from all the main parties joined the march, including Labour’s deputy leader, Tom Watson, former Tory deputy prime minister Lord Heseltine, the mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, and the SNP leader and first minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon.” (Guardian)
and I can’t be bothered doing any more.
That shows she’s not just in the news, but WHY it’s a good idea she went on the march – which answers the others who try to do Sturgeon down.
@ Breeks says:
23 March, 2019 at 9:09 pm
geeo says:
23 March, 2019 at 9:04 pm
CBB@7.21pm.
I have nerves of steel, and a powerful conviction, driven by studying facts, and reading the game being played…
Now I am weeping.
Now go and change them.
Gove and Lidington if interim PMs said to be ready to go for CU and SU with Labour votes, if so ultra soft Brexit and dilutes almost to nothing SNP demands for indyref2
link to twitter.com
link to twitter.com
Gove and Lidington if interim PMs said to be ready to go for CU and/or SM with Labour votes, if so ultra soft Brexit and dilutes almost to nothing SNP demands for indyref2
Indeed the SNP could hardly complain given it was the ‘compromise’ Brexit Sturgeon was proposing months ago
@Nana
RE: ‘full blown coup’
Not unexpected, but certainly sooner than I expected to be sure. I’m guessing the speech, the following mood music in the public responses and the scale of today’s London march has rattled a few cages. 😎
She’s in London at a high profile march against Brexit and STILL only gets a mention behind Michael Heseltine.
I think you’ve just backed up my point yesindyref2!
As I said, ask the Rev. He’ll tell you the same, the English media doesn’t bother much with reporting on Scottish politics or its major players (the Salmond story excepted). I’m not saying it’s a good thing, I’m just reporting it as I find it.
Theresa: 10 days and gone says BBC report Tory sources:
11 cabinet members are demanding that she says publicly it will happen after a EU deal is secured.
Tory MP Daniel Kawczynski on radio 5 (I paraphrase slightly)
Its all the EU’s fault thwarting the UK’s desire for independence! The MSM is against us (UKGov) pointing out all our mistakes and not explaining to the UK public how devious the EU27 are. 🙂
Oh… more!
Sturgeon in Scotland might break away and divide the ‘country’
Aye Right! 🙂
Well,well,well. Craig Murray attacking Nicola on twitter for posing with A Campbell for a picture. He feels she should now resign.
My thoughts—-Craig Murray happily worked as an Ambassador for the State with an appaling history of mass murder all over the world, and he happily took their money to do so.
Sorry Craig. The blackest pot calling the kettle black.
Hope you proudscotbuts are watching the bbc 9pm film, A united kingdom’ substitute botswana for Scotland.
Scottish 10pm news item on radio 5. Golden eagles to be tagged.
@Macart
Some saying her string puller husband is telling her to hang on and Gove waiting in the wings sharpening the knife. He is said to be relishing the role of ‘caretaker PM’
Just imagine that slimy incompetent anywhere near power.
Each and every one of them need booting out.
OT just to clarify my choice of language, prompted by Clapper57’s call, in OT, for measured debate.
When I refer to “English utilitarians”, I am using “English” in the sense of English mustard. Not utilitarian who are English and can be identified as utilitarians by their English-ness, though that is a common characteristic of the English identity. It’s a cultural ting.
Thanks Artyhetty and CameronB Brodie for responding.
Michael Gove being lined up as “Compromise Caretaker” after backlash at David Lidington coup plot…
link to twitter.com
Fair is foul, and foul is fair
Hover through the fog and filthy air
Is it thee, Govester?
link to twitter.com
Flower of Scotland is right – the SNP ahve to be careful with marches and rallies. Even as it is, some media reports any rally or martch as an “SNP march”, when it’s been independent organised.
K1 is mostly right, except that Sturgeon isn’t the head of the independence movement, we are, there is no one head, and that’s as Sturgeon says too, she constantly refers to “The People”, and indeed put forward the Holyrood 2012 motion for “The Claim of Right”. Don’t forget that for instance, Kings in Scotland were “KLing of Scots” not King of Scotland, whereas in England it was King of England. Big difference.
Essexexile – did you not read my posting at all? I looked in only 4 articles and in all 4 articles she was mentioned. Like others, I occasionally dip into the murky depth of the London based media, and she is often mentioned. I guess you don’t read any papers down there. And in particular, perhaps you should try reading below the line. “Nippy”, “Krankie” is in every other comment. Well, good 🙂
Added to which many down there would vote for her.
Just because you live somewhere doesn’t mean you know everythng about it. Look at HYFUD for instance, his knowledge even of his own history is just about nil.
May and the Tory – Westminster unionists are known throughout the world as a bunch off total imbeciles. They are the world laughing stock. A complete and utter shambles. What a total mess. Unbelievable. Westminster paedos, bigot, racists and imbeciles. Totally impossible.
Scotland can do so much better Independent. More folk know it.
That was quick, they must read Wings LOL
Cabinet coup to ditch May for emergency PM
link to twitter.com
Yesindyref2 I may not give a nationalist interpretation of it but that is different
Ken500 The softer the Brexit the worse the prospects for indyref2 and any Yes vote and if no Brexit at all the polls show No would comfortably win any indyref2
May being stabbed in the back like Thatcher. She will go away greeting face. It will all end in tears, like Thatcher. Gove will finish them off. A complete imbecile.
@Thepnr –
‘The Ides of March’ changes every year, and this year it was Friday 15th, so they’re a wee bit late, just like Theresa May’s statements to the nation.
Mind you, if Gove is being lined-up as any kind of interim PM, there will be crowds on the streets tomorrow calling for May to stay.
Ach well, so it goes…
Strange days indeed…most peculiar momma!
😉
The continued complete shambles of Brexit. The imbeciles at Westminster do not have a clue what they are doing. It is pathetic. The Tories were warned not to start this mess but would not listen. Just like Blair and the illegal wars. Costing Scotland £Billions. Once again it will cost Scotland £Billions because of Westminster unionists totally inadequacy. The are just a bunch of criminals.
me @ 21:44,
And if public support is already fully in place as you assert, RP, and is merely being hidden away by evil pollsters, why is it then that the SG/SNP (by that logic) have been criminally negligent in not deploying it in full force already, to mould history decisively in our favour in a timely manner? If the people are truly ready, how can any (coherent) action now possibly be premature? Why are we instead all still fretting and waiting?
(Well, almost everyone else but you, it seems. Oh, and Robin McAlpine. =grin= Though he’s not SNP anyway.)
Your logic just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. I have a whole lot more respect for the sound judgement of the SG/SNP leadership than I have for yours, I’m afraid.
@Hyfud,
Only six districts in N Ireland now have a Protestant majority. This will be eroded in time due to birth rates.
Only a matter of time till Irish reunification.
Thepnr 2121, istill think its May’s deal or no deal. parliament cant get its act together, there is no effective official opposition, when the deputy leader of the official opposition stands in front of 1 million remainers whilst the leader is nowhere to be seen and says he would support May’s deal if he could get a second vote that tells me that the Labour leadership despite the retoric are not interested in a “peoples” vote. It would appear Parliament is split three ways and the default position is no deal. There appears to be a move on May’s leadership, dont know how that works thought under the rules that she was safe for another 9 months or so, so can only presume that its the establishment moving on her, cant see the soft brexit/remain side of the Tory party being strong enough.
As has been said on these pages many times, May is just a placeperson, following the orders of the Establishment to ensure that their illgotten gains from Tax Avoidence and Money Laundering is safe from EU legislation. If May is replaced, it will be by another placeperson. And it will be either May’s deal or No deal that wins.
Anybody who promotes patience and trusting in NS gets my full agreement.
The situation is just too volatile to declare a push for indyref2. It could be overtaken by events within hours.
@ CameronB Brodie @ 10.08pm
‘MEASURED’ you say….as in give people an INCH and they take a MILE…hope I have not put my FOOT in it….me bad…sadly I am out of my DEPTH in relation to your comment I could not FATHOM what you meant ….but I do prefer French Mustard…though with Brexit won’t have that FURLONG…perhaps some Jam Mustard as I believe that will be all the rage post brexit according to Liam Fox….we’ll have GALLONS of the stuff….
Have a nice evening….what’s left of it….
ps. In case in doubt…I am being nice….I say this with every OUNCE of my being… Lol !!
@Tatu3 says: 23 March, 2019 at 5:35 pm:
” … Help please. For a discussion I’m having with someone on fb, could someone please put in very simple terms how Scotland pays more to Westminster than we get back and how we are NOT subsidised.”
Sorry, Tatu3 I’m playing catch up today.
Here are a couple of thoughts.
Scotland’s Per Capita GDP is normally higher than any other United Kingdom Country. Now comparing Per Capita GDP is the total revenue raised by any area by Westminster divided by the total population of that area. Thus every Scot pays more into the Treasury than any other country in the UK. However be wary of the Unionist trick of comparing unlike areas. They will attempt to fool you by quoting the City of London, (not London City), with the whole country of Scotland. The City of London is the one Square Mile of the financial sector. Obviously not a proper comparison.
The other one its that every penny of oil & Gas revenue goes to the Treasury as they claim all oil & Gas is from United Kingdom Extra Regio Territory but up to 98% of it comes out of Scottish Waters. Now to understand that scam the term. “Extra Regio”, means from no identifiable Region but it comes from a very identifiable region – Scotland. Yet not a single penny of it is returned to Scotland as all Scotland gets is their Block Grant.
They talk about Scotland getting 8.4% of it but this is a lie. The credit Scotland with earning a population share of 8.4% but they actually give Scotland nothing. The 8.4% is just a figure they use to derive other figures to use to work out other statistics – we get no money.
@ Hyufd.
Whatever you might read or hear from what passes for journalism and broadcasting in this God forsaken union, the SNP have never ever demanded independence, such a demand would infer that it was the gift of someone to bestow.
It’s not. Scotland will to return to the status of an Independent Sovereign State when the Treaty of Union is dissolved, ending the political union between Scotland and England. How that is enacted is for the people of Scotland and Scotland’s Parliament to decide.
Bob Mack Antrim the largest County in Northern Ireland with a population of 618,000 is strongly Protestant. Antrim and Newtonabbey is 61% Protestant and Mid and East Antrim 73% Protestant.
Every MP from Antrim is from the DUP and a comfortable majority of its MLAs are Unionists too
@Lenny Hartley
Thing is it’s so clear that May’s deal has absolutely no chance of getting the required support that it’s being reported she won’t even have a third vote on it.
Some another deal is certainly possible, so much talk of “Common Market 2.0” and “Norway Plus”. This is the bandwagon that Corbyn will jump on and then try to claim all the glory if parliament goes for that. The thing is is though all these “new” options are just exactly what the Scottish government proposed to May in Dec 2016 of remaining in the single market and customs union.
Absolutely there is a good chance that is where we end up but it won’t be Mays deal. As for no deal, many will disagree but I think that’s now a gonner, parliament on Monday will take control of business on Wednesday and have a series of votes to try and find a way forward. No deal will be absolutely crushed when that happens and that will be the end of that would be my guess.
I said a while back that I thought revocation of Article 50 had a 5% chance because it would only happen if all else failed, well that’s pretty much where we headed now.
I’d put a General election as the most likely outcome now, it kicks the can done the road again and gives an extension to article 50 of at least a year. I still believe though that one way or another the UK will end in as an absolute minimum remaining in the SM and CU if they don’t just remain in the EU.
Golfnut As the polls show if it is not a hard Brexit there is next to no chance of the Scottish people voting anything but a clear No to independence even if there was indyref2
Nana @ 22:08,
Never mind slimy, etc. (though all true), would they possibly allow another Scot – however poshly anglified – to be in charge?
He’s definitely dangerous for Scotland, maybe more than most because of his origins, but I can’t help wondering whether that would also turn out to be the final straw for us.
(Though whatever happened to the once-Great Saviour in the wings – pun intended – Tank Commander…?)
Put this on wrong thread there 🙁
Yes, I had put ‘defacto’ when I wrote that sentence and then took it out…which would have clarified my meaning better in terms of NS’s position in the Indy movement. Fair point though…she isn’t ‘actually’ the ‘leader’ as such, but she does represent all of us in the indy movement at present as well as Scotland on the whole as the FM, much in the same way Alex did when he was FM.
@ Hyfud,
So what? One county will not hold up eventual Irish reunification. The birth rate of Catholic families is growing whilst Protestant is falling. Only a matter of time.
Interestingly enough have you seen the number of so called Unionists to remain in the EU is rising by the week.
@Tatu3
Just saw that from RP’s answer. Another one, a safe one and one that can’t be denied is this:
“Scotland has nominal national accounts pruduced from incomplete estimates, but as England has no Parliament of its own, it has NO national accounts at all, yet with 85% of the UK population, it would have at least 85% of the UK spending. Therefore any estimates of Scottish spending and revenues can not be accurate without a proper and complete split of all spending and revenues between the 4 nations of the UK, to compare with the overall UK spending and revenues.”.
Short and sweet, and undeniable but with a subtle inference “at least”.
Clapper57
I was trying to be supportive and explain my choice of language at the same time. Debate about cultural issues can be very confusing, as well as ethically troublesome. Far less trouble if you have a post-colonial head though.
Glad to see you on the MT again. Same to yourself, what’s left of it. 😉
Hamish100. 9.25pm .I’ll not hold my breath.
@HYUFD says:
“Golfnut As the polls show if it is not a hard Brexit there is next to no chance of the Scottish people voting anything but a clear No to independence even if there was indyref2”
To my knowledge there has NEVER been such a question in any poll that showed a clear No to Independence if there is not a hard Brexit.
I think you’re telling porkies LOL, prove me wrong and I’ll apologise. If you can’t then you should apologise for LYING.
Ah rather think some and underestimating the ‘near miss’ aspect of UKexit and the very fact that irrespective of a ‘soft’ UKexit, it doesn’t not make ‘UKexit’ disappear off the radar as it is England who voted for it in the first place.
If you believe naively that those that who voted for Leave will give up the fight after any change to a softer option, then you are utterly deluded.
Does anyone seriously think Scotland will happily vote to remain in the UK with a constant ‘war’ being fought in England on the basis of ‘that’s not what we voted for’ crowd after a softer UKexit is achieved?
Clowns to the left and total fucking roasters to the right on this forum this evening.
The next reply is to say that GERS contains figures for “Spending on behalf of Scotland”, which are actually spent in London, the South-East and East of England, giving THEM the economic benefit of spending that is attributed to us, hence artitificially adding to their revenues at our expense.
This means for instance that most of us on Wings are actually susbisidising HYFUD in the East of England. And yet he never says “Thank you Scotland”.
If HYFUD is right, what proportion of Yessers would tactically vote Leave in a potential EUref2 to ensure Brexit.
Nice theory, but you’d have to be ptetty daft to do that. Anything that lessens the margin of Scotland’s Remain majority hampers the chances of indy via Brexit.
Clapper57
The other side is HYUFD is not here to debate, he’s here to disrupt. He’s crap at it so he’s more of a pet than a threat. He certainly deserves no respect, other than the basic required of civil society.
Thepnr we will see next week, if its Lidington then perhaps they will go for an extension, but he seems tothink that May’s deal is a soft Brexit ! We live interesting times, i still think May’s deal has got a chance, why would Tom Watson pull agreeing to May’s deal out of the hat today, itsnonense to link it to a2nd vote, after May’s deal we would already be out , the UK would have to renegotiate to rejoin the EU, apart from losing a lot of their opt outs and rebates, they would have to go to the bottom of the queue and join the euro 🙂 nah the peoples vote add on does not make sense, Corbyn must be panicking about either article 50 being revoked or another referendum. Maybe The Labour Brexiteers, the ERG and the DUP are about to vote with the majority of the Tory party for May’s deal to ensure a Brexit.
Worth reading.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
@Lenny Hartley
I’m pretty sure that what Watson was saying is that if she agreed to a 2nd referendum then Labour would support her deal only if it was then subject to ratification in a peoples vote with remain as the other option.
In order to do this she would have to request an extension to article 50 to allow the vote to take place, if I’m correct in that assumption then we would not be out of the EU until that vote took place.
The most recent poll from Yougov last week in this scenario gave Remain 61% and May’s deal 39%.
TThat’s the sole reason Watson would suggest it and why it is un;likely to happen.
Meanwhile with the Revoke A50 petition heading for 5 million, it’s interesting to note that Belfast South (DUP) has exceeded 10% of the electorate (compared to my saddo constituency North Ayrshire and Arran at 5.6%).
Oooer, I hope our 1 year old cavalier pups will be safe.
Remember, a dog isn’t just for Brexit.
Gulp! Just remembered Cromwell banned Christmas as well.
Bob Mack There are more people in Country Antrim than some countries and whatever Unionists may now think on Brexit (and most voted Leave) does not change their view on the Union
Scottish independence is and never was predicated upon leaving or staying in the EU.
It was predicated upon the fact that we are a country who’s political choices are overturned by the weight of the number of voters in another country, who’s population outnumber us. We constantly have to mitigate against the harm this causes to our people and their life’s, our parliament has proved ‘somewhat’ effective in that role, but we wish our parliament to have full powers to become ‘totally’ effective in shaping our society in a manner that befits our worldview, not the worldview of a country whose views run contrary to ours in every area of policy imaginable.
There is and will alway be this democratic deficit whether we stay or leave the EU. UKexit is but a ‘symptom’ of England’s delusions of grandeur. We do not suffer from that delusion, our EU vote ‘reflected’ that concisely to such a degree that many in Scotland have had their eyes opened to the reality of this in a way that a thousand indy referendum campaigns could never have achieved.
Don’t kid yerself that our movement is altered an iota by ‘current’ events. The ‘near miss’ analogy’ works just as effectively for our movement and TMay has been a gift in our fight against anglo exceptionalism on these islands.
The UK’s days are numbered, and England’s implosion has aided our cause greatly, for it has shown it’s complete disregard and contempt for all the other nations on these islands, not just Scotland’s and the world has seen this too, a bigger stage we could not have asked for in our lifetimes to show the democratic deficit in all it’s glory.
We will not be dragged out of the EU ‘agains’t our will’ and much like the Leavers who will continue their battle against a ‘soft UKexit’ we will continue ours to re enter the EU as an independent nation…once more.
So GIRFUY Simon.
Tag team Trolls lol.
Comparing May to Crowmwell is scary, quite frankly.
Anyways, this postulated “coup” is yet another reason for Sturgon holding fire in the brinkmanship game with May, as if May is deposed it’s another ball game, and yet another basis for Indy Ref 2 – the lack of democracy at the top of the UK political banana tree.
Thepnr There has not been any Yes lead in any recent indyref poll in any circumstance other than a No Deal Brexit or occasionally a May Deal Brexit
link to whatscotlandthinks.org
On the straight Yes or No to independence polls No clearly still leads
The UK map by %constituents signing the petition certainly puts a big dent in the myth that Brexit support is an England only affair.
Biggest density of support so far in London and central south England.
Jings HIFUD, the last poll in that list is 5th Dec 2018.
Typical unionist old news is bad news – I’m actually surprised it’s so recent, many unionist agitators are quoting things going back to 2013 in the MSM forums!
@K1
“The UK’s days are numbered, and England’s implosion has aided our cause greatly, for it has shown it’s complete disregard and contempt for all the other nations on these islands, not just Scotland’s and the world has seen this too, a bigger stage we could not have asked for in our lifetimes to show the democratic deficit in all it’s glory.”
Well said, the likes of HYUFD just don’t get that. All we seek is the power ot make our own choices for the people that live here, the Scots people.
HYUFD seeks to deny us that choice and comes on here to tell us how useless we would be at it. Not only that but he’ll lie in order to get his point across.
C’mon HYUFD provide the evidence for your assertion that:
“As the polls show if it is not a hard Brexit there is next to no chance of the Scottish people voting anything but a clear No to independence even if there was indyref2”
You don’t have any evidence do you and just made it up?
@ Hyufd.
I don’t know why you directed your comment to me, since it has no baring on my comment at 10:44.
K1 I know you Nats will use your eggs being overdone one morning by an English cook as an excuse for indyref2 but in reality it is only hard Brexit which moves the swing voters from 2014 who voted No potentially to Yes, without it they stay firm Nos
We were 4 points in the lead a week or 2 before the actual 2014 referendum and then Westminster through in ‘devo max’ and ‘the vow’ and enough pulled back from that to ensure a no vote…on those grounds.
Do people seriously believe that that 4% lead is impossible..NOW? Do ye feel lucky punks?
Well…do ya?
We are not in the middle of an Indy campaign right now…but when we are…watch this fucking space ya numpty.
@Essexexile
That’s crap as well, the biggest revoke A50 support is in Bristol West at 23.1%, next is indeed in Brighton Pavilion at 21.75%, Edinburgh North and West is 20.2%, just behind HGornsey and Wood Green at 20.3%.
Wanna try again?
It is people like you who lower the debate by implying we all hate the English. Such a tired trope with no evidence to back it up…in fact a smear. Is that all your’ve got?
Pfft!
We see you.
Yesindyref2 That was the date of the last full independence poll not predicated on a hard Brexit
link to en.wikipedia.org
Just admit you’re behind the times HIFUD – and that we all subsidise you.
And Yeah, K1 is right. You’re so soundly trounced all you’re left with is the false anti-ENglsih card. We do indeed see you – and find you’re holding 4 cards to jack shit.
ThePnr I do as the link above shows, if we avoid a hard Brexit it will remove Sturgeon’s excuse for any indyref2 for a generation
In the past week at some point, possibly during Mrs May’s speech to the UK electorate, the good ship Brittania has I suspect, struck a political iceberg after the fashion of the fatal collision which resulted in the sinking of Titanic.
At the moment of impact, the nature and extent of Titanic’s contact with the iceberg, was not immediately obvious. However, it did not take long for the realisation to dawn that though the ship was not in any immediate danger of sinking, its demise was certain and only a matter of time, to be measured in hours.
Similarly with the impact of Theresa May’s speech on Wednesday. Her future is now certain as is her Withdrawal Agreement and very possibly both this Government and indeed the Conservative Party. And the direction is down.
In recess till Monday after Lunch, the Westminster Parliament will gather to try to salvage something from the Brexit wreckage. What they will not salvage, are, 1.what’s left of England’s national unity, 2.the English electorate’s trust in the political institutions, 3. England’s global reputation, 4. Their place in Europe and NATO, and 5.The Union.
Should be an interesting week ahead.
Get that lifeboat ready, Scotland.
It is time.
It’s not ‘Sturgeon’ that decides, you absolute rocket.
What don’t you get?
We decide, the people in Scotland will decide, and we will have our say about being dragged out of the EU if indeed there is a second EU vote, but here’s the thing, speculate this: when Scotland votes to remain in the EU in overwhelming numbers and England votes marginally for some sort of ‘deal’ to leave…what do you think will happen then?
Hahahahahaha
Yesindyref2 Only London, the South East and the East of England see tax payments to the Exchequer outweigh receipts from public spending. If the oil price is high then Scotland is also a net contributor, in this instance falls in oil revenues meant it was not
link to theguardian.com
K1 As I said provided a hard Brexit is avoided any Deal especially staying in the SM and or CU sees a clear majority against independence and removes the excuse of the SNP for a significant change from 2014 enabling indyref2
I’m looking at the map indyref2 and was giving an overall impression.
And no need to be so spiky eh? You’re usually more level headed than that.
yesindyref2
Poor governance that undermines civil society, is considered justification for independence under international law. Just saying. 😉
@HYUFD
Unless you want to retract you Daily Express style “anti-English” comment, you are henceforth an official desperate dick and not worth the electrons you waste.
@Essexexile
Perhaps you don’t know that Scotland is one-third of the land-mass of the UK and in terms of population density probably one-twentieth or even one-fiftieth that of London. Of course it will look “less colourful”, try zooming in and hovering over a constituency. Maybe you’d like to add up and tabulate all 650 constituencies splite between Scotland and the rest of the UK to see if your point is correct – or not?
@HYUFD
“K1 As I said provided a hard Brexit is avoided any Deal especially staying in the SM and or CU sees a clear majority against independence”
You what!!
Hahaha, your on 1/10 fail miserably on truth, honesty and evidence.
SHOW US THE POLL WITH THE CLEAR MAJORITY AGAINST INDEPENDENCE
HYUFD
You’re way behind the times and all the variety of small polls have had complex and confusing questions – quite deliberately of course.
But they unanimously put YES ahead in all scenarios now.
It is significant we have not had a big poll.
I ignore them now because being engaged in this political issue on a daily basis I can assure you there has been a very significant increase in the support for independence – in any circumstance.
My own little branch of the SNP which trundled along at about 50 or 60 member for years is now approaching 200 members with six new members in the last month or so. This is happening across the whole country and SNP membership is now about FOUR TIMES AS MUCH as the total membership of the other three three major parties put together.
The SNP with a membership if over 125,000 is now the second biggest party in the whole of the UK. Realistically more than one adult in every thirty in Scotland is now a member of the SNP.
There is no appetite ffor independence! Aye,right- as we say in Scotland. The fact is that this huge army has not been deployed yet and there wil be a nationwide explosion of Independence campaigning as soos as the gun is fired. The most encouraging thing is the steady stream of English immigrants now coming to join us.
I’m sure I am wasting my time informing you but I recognise you will be getting fed the utter bollocks that the folk down south are fed in the media about Scotland and the SNP. And they believe it.
And BTW the (small)Scottish sub sample of the latest Ipsos Mori poll has the SNP on 67 out of 69 seats in the Scottish Parliament with Tory wipeout and one surviving Labour person.
weithh
Look, it’s simple. Inalienable human rights can’t be separated from the individual and can’t be relinquished. British nationalism can not accommodate universal human rights in it’s contemporary form (see the Right to Development, for example). To do so would bind English law. So do you fancy your chances in a future Brexitania without human rights?
….So do you fancy your chances in a future Brexitania with the human rights afford to you by Westminster. British human rights, which aren’t quite up to universal standard.
No it doesn’t.
CU and SM were ‘compromise’ positions from the SNP because our SG honoured the No vote in 2014. The default position is staying in the EU as per our 62% vote.
This people’s vote is predicated on ‘Remain’ being an option on that ballot, not just some ‘soft’ deal. Scotland will vote overwhelmingly for Remain, and our SNP MP’s and the FM will not countenance Remain not being on the ballot and that is why we are hearing so much about the people’s vote, because alliances involve negotiations, the SNP’s support is needed to get this through UK parliament.
And when once again Scotland votes for Remain, and England for ‘deal’, we will see the democratic deficit play out once more. You are kidding yourself if you believe that we will settle for ‘soft’ deal if ‘Remain’ is on the ballot.
And you are deluded beyond measure in failing to understand that the mood has shifted in Scotland, it is one thing to speculate about an outcome based upon ‘current polls’ it is quite another on the back of the last 2 and half years, were it has been shown without a doubt that our SG tried for all of Scotland to keep us in the EU, ignored, derided and treated with contempt, for us to be shafted by England’s choice on this matter, once again overriding Scotland’s choice.
Then it will become ‘crystal’ clear that the divergence is ‘too’ deep and cannot be overcome.
If the UK parliament had been at any point interested in listening to other voices at the start of the process, especially our SG, we wouldn’t even be here, as the ‘compromise’ position now being considered in WM is in fact the position that we initially promoted and was outrightly rejected over the past 2 and a half years?
Do you really think we are stupid? Remain will be on the ballot and we will vote in overwhelming numbers for Remain. Over any other UKexit deal.
It’s like…doh.
Oh…if Remain were not on the ballot, they won’t get the ‘people’ vote through parliament.
And it won’t be for the lack of our SNP MP’s trying and we will ‘see’ and understand ‘exactly why’ they kept it off the ballot paper.
Seriously ye think we’re no canny.
Off the top of my head, before I indulge in nosebag…
We, ordinary people, are influenced in our beliefs by what we are fed, through the education system, TV, newspapers, and so on.
The first independence referendum woke up a lot of Scots to the fact that we had been fed pro-unionism $h!t for decades.
Social media and Blogs have opened our eyes wider. Those ‘dan sarf’ are now wakening up to to the $h!t that we have been fed – and they’re not happy about how they have been deceived.
This UK is about to implode, because of the parliamentarian’s ignorance of what it is that the people of the UK, including England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland actually want in their lives.
Watch this space…
News at 11…
(Kentucky Fried Movie reference…)
Brian Doonthetoon
You sure you not studied social or political anthropology? 🙂
The DailyMail going mental tonight with new articles trying to hide the state of the Tory party and it’s leader in particular. They are all over the place.
May is doomed and we can move on from there, there will have to be an interim leader though as there is no time for an election for a new one. It’s just a question now I think of counting down the days, will it be swift or slow and painful?
Who cares? Certainly not me as it’s about time someone else took control, sure it will be another Tory but if they don’t seek consensus then parliament collapses this week and we have an election.
The best is yet to come, who will the Tories chose as their new leader. Boris the clown is favoured by the majority of the membership (does that include HYUFD)that would be it if he’s elected. The humiliation of the UK in the world’s eyes would be complete.
Does anyone still believe that Scotland wouldn’t vote for Independence in that scenario? That is the dream ticket, I hope you support Johnson as new leader HYUFD and do us all a favour.
OT
Herald carrying a story that Jonathan Shafi won’t vote SNP. Well, that’s good news for RISE if it does a phoenix!
The PNR EVERY poll on that list was against independence throughout the entirety of last year, as I said the only polls putting Yes ahead are predicated with a hard Brexit scenario
Dave McEwan Hill At the 2015 general election pre the Leave vote the SNP got 50% and 54 seats at the 2017 general election post the Leave vote the SNP fell to 36% and 35 seats. At least half the 2021 Holyrood polls now give a Unionist majority
K1 You can try and stir it up as much as you want, without hard Brexit Yes gets nowhere near getting over 50% and with soft Brexit there will be no EUref2 anyway. Plus of course over a third of even SNP voters voted Leave and would be fine with soft Brexit
@yesindyref2
Jonathan Shafi has never been likely to vote SNP ever, not really a story then and just the Herald stirring the porridge I think. Just another “split” story without substance as there isn’t any.
Mmm, here’s another argument to use to the undecided to vote YES. We all know the argument that Scotland will have all the powers to decided our own future, but not just that, Holyrood will be able to concentrate on issues regarding Scotland, rather than having half its time taken up with rUK issues and the constitutional debate. That will be gone.
In addition, for those who can’t stand politicians of any flavour (there’a a lot around my way), there’ll be a lot less of them – 650 plus over 800. That’s one I’ve used myself for those who want to abolish Holyrood “Why not get rid of Westminster, there’s more politicians there!”.
HYUFD
What about moral democracy Toryboy?
Thepnr Boris is no worse than Trump or Berlusconi and has like them or loathe them the latter are or have been a big presence on the world stage. The idea Scots will vote for independence based on who the Tory leader is is laughable and shows a desperation from Nats for any excuse for indyref that is absurd
32.000 Square miles of land mass, the most productive seas in Europe, 34% of the total UK economy
Scotland will be *just about managing* remember that phrase
We’ll probably *be strong and stable* there’s another phrase
Scotland will have the broad shoulders of the planet *renewable energy* never runs out, that’s why it’s called renewable, Oooh! and water water everywhere while I hear England is running out of *a drop to drink*
Those fellas in India have a good word for it *Karma*
@Thepnr
Yes, that’s what I thought but I wasn’t sure. I’m not against him, all views are welcome, and the more the merrier. In iScotland they will all have their chance to put their manifestoes before the electorate, and get elected.
@HIFUD
Still waiting for your apology for your racist calumny and defamation on the posters of Wings. Put up, or shut up. Such ignorant assertions as yours don’t belong in civilised debate.
Dr Jim So the whole point of independence is to get some sort of ‘Karma’ one over the English after all! You let the cat out the bag
re. the road to moral democracy.
A Human Right to Democracy?
link to warwick.ac.uk
The Political Morality of Liberal Democracy
link to ndpr.nd.edu
Kant on Citizenship and Universal Independence
link to researchgate.net
Human Rights Theory, 4: Democracy Limited: The Human Right to Religious and Moral Freedom
link to papers.ssrn.com
Sky news saying Gove would be interim PM LoL a acting PM of UK who cant vote on english laws or did they forget about EVEL
yesindyref2 12:40am
Tories both blue and red don’t apologise they just double down and threaten some more on the lie they originally depended on
“Thepnr Boris is no worse than Trump or Berlusconi”
You fucking what?
No worse than two of the most corrupt leaders the Western world has ever known. You are absolutely insane if that’s that standard of leadership you deem to be acceptable to be the leader of the UK Government.
No wonder we want shot of you lot, not because you’re English but simply because you’re fucking mental!
Simon, you need to get out more, go and work in a food bank for a few hours a week, help out with a homeless charity or something. I think you’ve lost all sense of perspective, a “nation” is everyone and yet you would endorse the likes of Johnson, Trump or Berlusconi as leaders.
Simple question, do you have a modicum of empathy for the less fortunate, do you even have a soul?
This one would have been better than the last one I chose.
Kant’s Contribution to the Idea of Democratic Pluralism
link to www3.nd.edu
‘…stir it up…”
eh?
Remain will be on the ballot you absolute no mark. Scotland will overwhelmingly vote for Remain.
Is there another name for this type of deluded spin?
You are TMay and I claim my 1 pence.
@ronnie anderson 12:44am
Have they not noticed Gove used to be Scottish, the Tories have got a decent man in Dominic Grieve but that’s the problem with Tories they don’t want the decent ones they like the mental cases like *Chucky* no scars Gove
The Lib Dems were going to select Jo Swinson for their next leader but changed their minds because they realised she used to be Scottish
There is no denying that the status of the UK in the eyes of the rest of the world has never been lower because of Brexit. The rest of the EU are absolutely gobsmacked at the incompetence shown by UK negotiators over these last two years.
The commonwealth are looking in with their mouths wide open at the mess this government has made of the negotiations. The US, Russia and China are just laughing at how pathetic the UK has become. That’s why a poll showed that 90% of the UK public believed that the UK has been humiliated in our dealings with the EU.
link to news.sky.com
So where now? Looks like getting rid of May is the first stop but before that we will have the “indicative votes” I really have no idea as to where they might take us but most likely away from a no deal.
What does all this mean for a 2nd independence referendum in Scotland? Well who am I to say, but I’ll tell you this if the majority of Scots who voted the way I did in the first referendum still feel the same I see the next referendum as being a certainty.
It will need to be resolved as it isn’t yet, we just have to wit to get this Brexshit over and then we can begin once more to campaign. We start and won’t stop, next time WE win.
@HFYUD
“K1 I know you Nats will use your eggs being overdone one morning by an English cook as an excuse for indyref2”
Good to see your more honest stance.
A perhaps relevant image:
Getting rid of May is probably made up nonsense to keep the million people protesting off the front pages anyway
See, all those people didnae happen
@Thepnr
“There is no denying that the status of the UK in the eyes of the rest of the world has never been lower because of Brexit.”
My son in Finland told me today that one TV presenter there burst out laughing when the delay was announced.
Thepnr You may dislike them but most people know them and they are big personalities who make or made an impact on the world stage. I shall be at church in the morning and have given to homeless charities in my time not that that has anything to do with the point
@Dr Jim
He did indeed. He and his ilk are one of the reasons sensible and reasonable unionists are departing the scene, they don’t want to be associated with the likes of him.
Thepnr The UK was the leading soft power nation last year
link to softpower30.com
If those who voted in the independence referendum still feel the same way Yes would still be on 45% and well short of a majority
C’mon peeps, stick to the facts.
That survey by the Office of National Statistics looked solely at NATURAL assets, not the wealth of the Scotland or the UK.
It’s not true that “Scotland possesses 34% of UK wealth” or “34% of the total UK economy”.
It is FACT that it was found that Scotland possessed 34% of the UK’s NATURAL assets, such as fish, wind power, water, oil and gas. It was not found that “Scotland possesses 34% of UK wealth” or “34% of the total UK economy”.
link to archive.is
Don’t give the other side ammunition!
If pigs could fly we’d all be eating Greggs vegetarian sausage rolls.
The UK is not a nation
See that’s the problem with these guys no attention span or the ability to learn
HYUFD
“I may dislike them” it has absolutely nothing to do with that.
Belusconi got a four year sentence for tax fraud and right now he is implicated in the death of a Morrocan model.
link to dailymail.co.uk
I don’t need to say anything about Trump he says it all for himself.
Hi Ronnie Anderson.
Michael Gove is the MP for an English constituency.
“He has been the Member of Parliament (MP) for Surrey Heath since 2005.”
Thus he is not subjected to EVEL, as an MP for an English constituency. It’s only MPs from Scottish constituencies that are barred.
Are you in Glasgow tomorrow ronnie?
Mmm, this reminds me of something I knocked up yesterday:
D’oh, a sound you hear a lot
Ray, you’ll not see any here
Me, me me, the Tories say
Far, we’ll not get far from beer
So, so what about that deal
La, the fingers in the ears
Tea, you’re daft, we drink for real
That will bring us back to d’oh (jeers jeers jeers)
HIFUD is at the “La” stage, his “Precious Party” is going round for about the 10th time and running out of fuel.
That was about Westminster by the way, context is everything!
Dr Jim The UK is a sovereign state made up of 3 countries and 1 province and a member of the UN
Thepnr There is no direct evidence linking Berlusconi to the death of that model. In any case he has now been eclipsed by his former coalition partner the even more populist rightwinger Matteo Salvini whose Lega Nord party leads current Italian polls
@HYUFD
What about the tax fraud by Belusconi?
Just a mistake like the Tory MP Chris Davies caught this week cheating his expenses? You’d forgive these robber barons anything it seems.
link to bbc.co.uk
re. Belusconi and right-wing populism in Italy.
link to tandfonline.com
That’s interesting, hover has stopped working on that petition map for me (firefox 52.9.0 (32-bit)). Anyone else?
Fuddy looking ever more duddy!
Well done the non biters.
“but it’s no laughing party…”
By the way, c;icking on the radio button right hand top of that map for “colour by % of constitents” gives a very different picture of colour of Scotland v rUK.
Sorry, URL:
link to petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com
A lot of truly great postings tonight (bar the obvious exception) while I was off watching a DVD. Thank you for that, not least the link to the latest WGD blog, which is a truly fine piece of writing. One of his very best.
You know what? I have the feeling now that things are really on the turn. More and more people waking up to how things really are. The curtain of Oz-UK peeled back to reveal a failing crock and a sham.
Amply supported on here by the LoDud Factor, whose panic level reached an all-time high.
Here’s the BBC for you:
“After a stormy week at Westminster we asked a constituional expert “what next?””.
Constitutional expert: “MPs are going to come back next week quite fired up and quite determined to make sure we get a resolution to this by the end of the week which is not no deal”.
Hello BBC, that’s a political opinion NOT a constitutional opinion.
Duh’oh.
More lies from the BBC. Corruption at the hard of Gov. Westminster is a world laughing stock along with their propaganda machine. £3.7Billion for absolute nonsense. Most of them should be put in jail.
Without a free and unbiased Press. There is no Democracy. The Westminster propaganda machine. MSM owned by tax evading Non Doms illegally. Most of them should be in jail.
Thieving, stinking liars. Killing millions of people.Getting away with murder.
Now is the time for May to be stabbed in the back by the rest of the criminal,stinking liar.
What a bunch of complete, useless, imbeciles. The Westminster unionists could not make a bigger mess. What a complete and utter shambles.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get another to vote as well. It is over the line when it is the time.
For goodness sake. They are discussing a coat. They are complete imbeciles. People are dying because of the immoral Tories and the rest. Corbyn is a liar. A useless imbecile.
Thepnr at 0103am,
Sorry but I disagree with your final point. Scotland cannot wait until brexit is over before going for independence. Why? because it is abundantly clear it won’t be over for many many years. Even if mad theresa’s deal were passed, their would still be two whole years at the very least of wrangling over trade deals etc..in which Scotland would have no voice. Do you seriously think this schism within the Tory and Labour parties will go away??
No, the First Minister needs to announce indyref soon – I think she herself indicated within a few days, or lose all credibility. As I pointed out many times last year, their will NEVER be a ‘perfect time’, events will always be changing. That is the nature of politics. For example, last year, everybody thought the deal would be done by October, then it was definitely by January at the very latest, and so on, and on, and on. This is how it will be. Their is no end.
Scotland needs out of this crock of sh*t ASAP. It is, in case you haven’t noticed, urgent.
I genuinely think that if NS announced that indyref would need to wait until brexit is all over, she would be roundly mocked, and would never again be taken seriously. And the SNP would lose lots of support.
We can sit twiddling our thumbs until the end of time, waiting for Westminster to sort itself out, shouting from the touchlines, or the First Minister can call indy ref, and let Scotland move on. People are crying out for it.
Thepnr at 0103am,
Sorry but I disagree with your final point. Scotland cannot wait until brexit is over before going for independence. Why? because it is abundantly clear it won’t be over for many many years. Even if mad theresa’s deal were passed, their would still be two whole years at the very least of wrangling over trade deals etc..in which Scotland would have no voice. Do you seriously think this schism within the Tory and Labour parties will go away??
No, the First Minister needs to announce indyref soon – I think she herself indicated within a few days, or lose all credibility. As I pointed out many times last year, their will NEVER be a ‘perfect time’, events will always be changing. That is the nature of politics. For example, last year, everybody thought the deal would be done by October, then it was definitely by January at the very latest, and so on, and on, and on. This is how it will be. Their is no end.
Scotland needs out of this crock of sh*t ASAP. It is, in case you haven’t noticed, urgent.
I genuinely think that if NS announced that indyref would need to wait until brexit is all over, she would be roundly mocked, and would never again be taken seriously. And the SNP would lose lots of support.
We can sit twiddling our thumbs until the end of time, waiting for Westminster to sort itself out, shouting from the touchlines, or the First Minister can call indy ref, and let Scotland move on. People are crying out for it.
Good morning Ken500
Just wondering if you talk like you post, machine gun style!? Reminds me of London cabbies. Have a good day.
Yesindyref2, yes, that was the version of the map I was originally commenting on. Pretty even spread except maybe the hardcore UKIP NE England and surprisingly Northern Ireland. Anyway, nearly 5 million now. Have a good Sunday.
brexit won’nt end for a long long time!
lab/con will end sooner!
uk is alreadyy ended!
They woke up the peeople down south …big mistake!
brexit won’nt end for a long long time!
lab/con will end sooner!
uk is alreadyy ended!
They woke up the peeople down south …big mistake!
Robert Louis @7.35am.
Are you suggesting that the SNP’s strategy of waiting until UK Gov – I include the DUP – has been utterly exposed as a nasty cocktail of bigots, buffoons and the downright deranged is the wrong one?
That the FM’s strategy of backing EU Ref 2 as a means of bringing onside the former No voters we need to win IR2 is the wrong one?
That consistently sanctioning the SNP leader in the HoC to repeatedly stress that ‘Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against its will’ is the wrong one?
I said before that when Nicola Sturgeon pulls the trigger she will go ‘all in’ for Scotland’s place in Europe.
It will be a wonderful sight to behold. And the world will look on and say ‘at last Scotland, at last you have found your voice.’
Links
link to holyrood.com
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
Record number of EU citizens registered to vote in Scottish elections
link to archive.is
Wingers already know this but new readers may not
link to businessforscotland.com
Former Aberdeen depute provost accused of groping and kissing man in sexual assault
link to archive.is
link to unearthed.greenpeace.org
link to euronews.com
Calls grow for public inquiry into Brexit
link to archive.is
link to edition.cnn.com
link to politicshome.com
link to brexittime.com
link to rte.ie
link to opendemocracy.net
link to christiantoday.com
link to gov.uk
link to cnbc.com
link to evolvepolitics.com
link to politicshome.com
As Gove is being touted for PM here’s something from earlier this month. Part 1 can be found bottom of the page
link to bylinetimes.com
A wee reminder of Gove’s cheating on expenses
link to twitter.com
Bdtt I stand corrected Brian on Gove .
Dr Jim I meet up with Bdtt & Pete the Camera in the Counting House 12 of the clock I’ll be wearing the Wings Tammy, thereafter G/S & Dow’s .
What Nicola needs is the people who voted to remain in Scotland, to feel that she is representing them.
Both the Tories and Labour are clearly failing to do so, so Nicola being on this march is showing previous No voters who are having serious misgivings about their future, that there is someone speaking up for them.
Hopefully the trickle of people who have been indicating they have switched from voting No in the last referendum to now voting Yes because of brexit, will begin to turn into a flood, as people realize just how badly effected their lives will be by the incompetence of the Westminster system.
Westminster has conned a lot of Scots into believing that those who work for ‘Her Majesties Government’ are very clever people, but looking at some of the pish Craig Murray comes out with should inform any reader that this is simply not the case.
Some legal advice even has it that whoever is PM has executive power to revoke A50 – though this is disputed legally… and would seem politically very difficult…
link to twitter.com
Brexit: the last hurrah
link to eureferendum.com
Britain is drowning itself in nostalgia
link to archive.is
Watch while it’s still available
Remastered : The Miami showband massacre
link to netflix.com
Article 50 has 5 parts, by waiting to trigger Article 50 in March 2017 the PM knew a request for an extension would not only postpone ‘exit day’ and prevent a ‘no deal’ Brexit on the 29th March, it would also prevent the EU from having to amending any of its treaties, allow the UK to participate in elections for the European parliament and park the ‘Withdrawal Agreement’ until 20xx.
Watching both Labour and Tory parties trying to agree a manifesto for the EU elections should be fun. Eventually they will need to reveal the kind of relationship they want the UK to have with the EU.
I hope they remember to include “special arrangements’ for Scotland.
If not then, the FM will not need to wait for a Brexit deal to hold an independence referendum.
Aye Nana, watched the Miami Showband Massacre last night, it’s disgusting and repulsive what the Thatcher government was up too, and all the time in denial, sacrificing MI5 agents to keep things under wraps.
On another note has Murdo Fraser been on Twitter yet, as we all know how he likes to “whinge and moan” about delays to anything??
Nana time & again Blackrock ( Marshall/Gove piece ) is mentioned in many references to Brexit & Westminster politicians , the american influence is well imbedded in british politicians bought & payed for.
Joanna Cherry: Halting Brexit won’t affect our independence mandate
link to archive.is
Full Scottish programme starts at 12:00 on Sunday 24th March 2019
On the Full Scottish this week, Corri is joined by guests, Chris Stephens MP and Ellen Hoefer to talk about the big stories in the week’s news.
link to broadcastingscotland.scot
Morning highseastim, it’s a pretty damning programme. I found myself thinking about Willie McRae throughout as well as a few other ‘mysterious deaths’ over the years. The UKgov, MI5 and the rest are fit for anything.
Morning Ronnie, indeed Ronnie and has been the case for a very long time.
On BBC Radio Scotchland Professor Hazel of UCL refers to HM Bettie’s need to remain impartial. So why did she become partial during Indyref1?
Simple, she is the establishment of the UK state.
For anyone wondering where Corbyn was yesterday, he was as ever playing the fool
link to twitter.com
An article from 2016
link to independent.co.uk
and another
link to irishtimes.com
Ending this morning’s links with this opinion board yesterday in Perth
link to twitter.com
Sunday mornings musings .
Surely its not beyond the wit of Biscuit manufacturers to come up with a biscuit called Brexcuit , something that holds its form after ah good dipping in the Tea cup.
In out in out shake it all about
All set for another week of bams bamboozlement folks .
Nicola Sturgeon First Minister of Scotland on BBC Marr this morning
Patrick Roden says:
24 March, 2019 at 9:04 am
What Nicola needs is the people who voted to remain in Scotland, to feel that she is representing them….
Sinn Féin voters feel adequately represented when their MP’s don’t even take their seats in Westminster because they reject Westminster as their legitimate government.
Scottish Independence supporters meantime have a Scottish government setting Scotland’s Constitutional principles to one side in order to champion a UK campaign to save the UK from its delusional “British” nostalgia and bestial xenophobia and in so doing, deny Scotland all benefit stemming from the perfect Constitutional storm which Scotland’s sovereign and democratic rejection of Brexit represents.
Frankly, I’m floating somewhere in the middle, but that “middle” is a damn site nearer Sinn Féin’s position, and several nautical miles from the SNP’s.
@Breeks 10:00
So right. The SNP leadership perspective on this matter is too close to that of the Unionist state.
Saving Britannia from her follies is not our concern. However, there are rather too many SNPers reluctant to shed the British label: nostalgia, amnesia or the beginnings of a Fine Gael/Fianna Fáil dichotomy.
But then i’m a subversive extremist troll and would say that…..tee hee!
Ottomanboi. Whit! Ye mean your not an agent provocateur.lol.
David mundell unable to be interviewed again on tele. What an absolute coward he is.
Labours shadow SosSS Laird believes we need to Brexit. The Westminster colonial arrangements for all to see. Ignore Scotland
We then have exLabour MP Harris but really a Tory repeating that proposed indicative votes are not compulsory. So the Tories can ignore any such vote in the commons. He basically sides with the Tory MP’s in Scotland.
Since he headed up Brexit Leave in Scotland you would think he should have remembered the the brexit referendum was actually advisory.
The Unionists are dangerous for Scotland.
Breeks @ 10.06
Aw Breeks… even you must see that even if Brexit were cancelled tomorrow,the Campaign for it is not going to go away.
To try to stop any damage to Scotland is the right thing to do…. Every time…. that’s not getting on board with the British State as you seem to be suggesting.
If, infact the ” SNP “led Campaign is successful and the UK stay in the EU,the EU rules and laws will apply to Westminster during Indy Ref 2… That’s a good thing for us!
ALso
Keeping no deal out and getting a deal in initiates a transition period,which still binds Westminster to EU laws again a good thing for us.
Are you seriously suggesting that the Scottish government don’t try for any of those outcomes?
Our Government, much as we don’t like it IS in the Westminster system and shouldn’t be sitting back in the huff letting that system do it’s worst.
Brext is not going to go away.
If it’s cancelled Scotland will be living under the threat of it from the English voters for decades.The damage to the Union is already done.
Half the British Media,a great deal of their parliament and a lot,a very lot, of their voters will keep pushing to leave the EU. During Indy Ref 2 there is going to be nowhere to hide that fact,and the Yes Campaign are not going to never stop pointing to it.
They are not going to “Vow” to stay in Europe,(although they should be asked if they would be willing to do so at every opportunity,to head off the actual vow they will try to make as falling short of a reason to stay 🙂 ) politically they can’t.They will be stuck with a Union half their country don’t want and that half have a media!
They cannot hide or deny that Scotland’s democratic deficit leaves us at risk of having to go through losing our EU membership all over again.
Getting them to stay also puts a stop to the “being run from Europe” jibes as they have just choose them selves to do exactly that or choose to be a “rule taker” for a few years and with the backstop possibly forever!
We can quite rightly argue we don’t propose to be a rule taker we are going to be in there making them.
Once they are tied to a deal whatever it looks like we can pull it apart and it will be extremely pullable 🙂
It’s any potential damage to Indy from an unrestrained (no deal) Westminster that needs to be killed off…And killed off now!
And Nicola and her team should have our support while they try!
So long as Scotland voted to stay part of the UK, Nicola has to fight Scotland’s corner wrt to EU ‘people’s vote’, it’s not at all anything to do with ‘up keeping’ UK construct, I could see that argument might have a smidgeon of relevance ‘if’ we had voted Yes in 2014.
We didn’t and are therefore still part of the UK. Jesus fucking wept guys, stop pushing a false and quite frankly absurd narrative wrt to the SNP’s position on this matter.
Paradoxically it’s those who are pushing this narrative who seem unable to comprehend and respect the 2014 result, I’m not happy about that either but I’m not for turning on the FM and the SNP because of it, especially at this critical time.
This is a ‘live’ set of circumstances that we in the midst of and the dust has not settled by any means, whilst I can understand the frustration and impatience, it’s neither helpful nor constructive to set the indy movement against the FM and the SNP at this time. In fact it’s downright irresponsible imv to be pushing this line of criticism.
Hold, hold, fucking just hold.
Scotland voted No unfortunately, so Nicola helping to save saving Britain from Brexit, is also saving Scotland.
She is showing real leadership at a time when others are failing to do so.
As I said, almost every day now, a few people who say they voted No in indyref1, have been coming one twitter saying that they have had enough, and will now be voting Yes, as a result of the mess that Westminster has made of Brexit.
The very last thing Nicola should be doing right now is hiding in the shadows like Jeremy Corbyn, she needs to be in the media showing strong leadership and a coherent political position.
As several people mentioned above, she has been at several independence marches and is clearly committed to the cause, but sometimes you have to see the bigger picture which is that while the media have been trying to denigrate her as not getting on with the day job, what people are actually now seeing clearly with their own eyes, that when the chips are down, May and Corbyn have lacked leadership, Jackson/Davidson, Leonard, and Rennie have been nowhere, while Nicola has been repeatedly described as the only political leader in the UK who knows what she is talking about.
The channel 4/Sky thing recently when they re-hashed the currency question was clearly done under instruction because the powers that be in Westminster aren’t so daft as to not understand that indyref2 will soon be triggered and that the way the SNP have repeatedly attempted to negotiate with the Prime Minister to ensure she understands Scotland’s particular needs, along with how they have been ignored and denigrated by her and the rest of her colleagues, will be a powerful weapon that will be used against the Westminster establishment, when the debates begin about how Scotland is effected by Brexit.
I guess then, that’s the watershed that divides us.
For me, saving Scotland from Brexit means exiting the UK Union on a Constitutional Sovereignty ticket before we suffer the catastrophe of Brexit, and put ourselves permanently beyond the reach of Westminster and under the protective umbrella of the EU. That’s what Independence literally delivers, and gets delivered in return.
For you guys, saving Scotland from Brexit means saving the UK from Brexit, and forfeiting a whole battery of Constitutional anomalies which put Scotland in one Constitutional position and the rest of the U.K. in another. In my opinion these irreconcilable differences should be exposed and conflated, not conceded and acquiesced to without so much as a cross word…. I don’t understand. You’ve lost me. I’ll have to let you explain the logic of that strategy… although I warn you I probably won’t be listening.
I lifted this of Twitter this morning. Don’t know him from Adam, but found his question poignant.
@AaronBastani
Watching @theSNP edge away from independence is fascinating.
Sturgeon is a great leader for a European country, but gaining independence for a nation requires a different set of skills. Question is how those who want #indyref2 will respond while gently being sold a pup.
Patrick Roden and Liz g correct on all points.
Mr Bastani is no friend of the yes movement in general and the FM inparticular,he has a dog in the fight but as sure as hell it’s not our dog.
K1 12.39pm. Good thoughtful post. I’m just as guilty at times of getting frustrated and impatient.
Breeks the difference is that we are realistic,
Breeks@1.16pm
Posting that last paragraph from Bastani is a poor choice by you.
@Patrick Roden and K1
Just playing catch up, but pretty much and well said.
@Nana
Good catches on the Joanna Cheery piece, Business for Scotland and the Holyrood mag. Worth reading. 🙂
I’ve had a lovely weekend away (pressie for my birthday) and I’m now trying to catch up. I see that the usual suspects are dissing Nicola Sturgeon / the SNP with the last three posts (Liz, K1 and Patrick) addressing that issue to great effect, so not much more for me to add.
However, I’m trying to make sense of your posts, Breeks. If I had to choose just one person on here who has been seen to have been absolutely terrified of Scotland being dragged out of the EU, it’s you Breeks with your … tick tock, tick tock … and yet when Nicola Sturgeon does her utmost to deal with the situation you’re still complaining. No need to worry. As already pointed out, no matter what happens now Scotland will be dissolving the Union. Then you’ll be a happy chappie, eh??
‘Joanna Cheery’…. 😀 LOL
Sometimes typing quickly can be a right pain when you look back on a comment. Other times… 🙂
There is no possible upside to having a failed state next door.
@AaronBastani
“Watching @theSNP edge away from independence is fascinating”.
Watching the SNP adopt an adult approach to Brexit is reassuring. Watching @theTories undermine Britain’s democracy and economic survival is terrifying. Where are British Labour?
“Sturgeon is a great leader for a European country, but gaining independence for a nation requires a different set of skills.”
Like what, asymmetrical guerilla warfare? It is easy to be a poser of questions but do you have any answers?
“Question is how those who want #indyref2 will respond while gently being sold a pup”.
Are we though, or are the SNP allowing the British state to destroy itself completely, before delivering the killer blow? Bruce Lee style.
Critical Leadership Studies
link to researchgate.net
Leadership Theory: Cultivating Critical Perspectives
link to researchgate.net
Critical Perspectives on Leadership: The Language of Corporate Power
link to crcpress.com
Understanding the Trait Theory of Leadership
Can certain traits predict your leadership success?
link to verywellmind.com
Sometimes ah think you’re the mad guy who breaks the front line out of sheer fear and panic, runs forward only to trip over a clod of grass and land heid first intae a boulder fatally ending yer life.
And everyone else just holds the line, shakin’ their heid’s at yer obvious folly.
@ Cubby says at 1:45 pm …. ”Breeks – Posting that last paragraph from Bastani is a poor choice by you.”
It seems that Breeks is becoming increasingly desperate and you have to wonder at his motives for continually doing his utmost to discredit the ONLY people who are in a position to get us out of this horrendous Union. If he can think of anyone else who can do so, maybe he could let us all know. Additionally the ”sovereignty line” that he keeps pushing on here, being used to gaslight people imo, smacks of someone suffering from, to say the very least, delusions of grandeur. I mean to say, Nicola Sturgeon is in touch with numerous Constitutional experts (plus those that she has no contact with) all of whom I would imagine know a great deal more than Breeks and yet there’s not been as much as a ”smidgen” from any of them that concurs with anything that he has had to say on the subject. That’s not to say that it’s not a route that they might consider taking when the time is right for us to do so, but IF that’s the case they’re keeping schtum about it for now. Maybe he should / could think of doing so too?
@ Cameron B Brodie
I was reading an article in the “Der Spiegel” with an interview by British anthropologist Richard Wrangham which dealt in part with aggression and domination.
To me it seemed to indicate that behaviour in Westminster with regard to Brexit is similar to that of chimpanzees whereas Holyrood tends to emulate Bonobo behaviour, they look the same as human beings but poles apart in human behaviour.
link to spiegel.de
BTW, keep coming with the links..! 🙂
@Breeks
Are you seriously quoting @AaronBastani?
Wanna try Leonard next, Corbyn or even Murray? Maybe Gordon Brown?
Graf Midgehunter
That’s a good analogy as there is a significant cultural distinction between Scots and English, in terms of world view and approach to individualism and comuniterianism. The way we practice these differences is obviously a little less ‘energetic’ than our primate cousins. 😉
Brexit Will Not Solve Anything
The Brexit vote reflects a brewing discontent among citizens of the United Kingdom who hoped for more economic prosperity and greater independence. Unfortunately, those are unlikely outcomes.
link to sapiens.org
I’m pretty sure I’ve already posted this one. One thing is for certain though, it wasn’t Scotland’s social media that delivered the full-English Brexit.
link to journals.sagepub.com
Breeks @ 1.16
Sorry had to leave for the Glasgow Rally…
Anyhoo.
Why on earth should it divide us?
Do you really want Nicola to do as Corbin is doing and give the Torries a free run at this?
You could say “well they wanted us in this bloody union and by Lucifer they’ve got us for now, and they’ll know it”!
Try looking at it Like that and see how different it play’s!
Like it or not,we are always going to be affected by what Westminster does,even after Indy…. And them us…that’s geography,and no Constitution can legislate that away!
Anyhoo…
They best learn now that we will not sit back and leave them to get on with it.To do that would be deference to the Westminster system … Aye…
This is so not about saving the UK to live unhappily even after in….This is infact,as best as can be currently managed,Geopolitical,as in,using what influence and leverage you have to nudge another country towards your own interests.
You may be best served Breeks to reconcile yourself to the fact that we cannot have and should not want Fortress Scotland.
But you can console your self with the knowing that the Scottish government is moving the pieces in to place to be the most internationally credible of the two Countries on this island!
The “clout” they spoke of in 2014,well, Nicola seems to be making sure that’s coming wi us…..
I’ve been doing a bit of thinking and a binary referendum question really is a poor basis on which to implement drastic constitutional change. I’d much prefer Scotland gained independence following a general election manifesto pledge. More opportunity to consider the issue in depth, but I think folk already know how I feel on that issue. Only an opinion, I do have others. 🙂
Obviously. Brexit is democratically immoral from Scotland’s perspective. Anyone know if the Church of Scotland are still British nationalists?
Hi CameronB Brodie at 8:44 pm.
You typed,
“I’ve been doing a bit of thinking and a binary referendum question really is a poor basis on which to implement drastic constitutional change. I’d much prefer Scotland gained independence following a general election manifesto pledge.”
I feel it in meh wattir that Nicola and the SNP have a fallback position that they will use Maggie’s mantra from the 80s – the Scots don’t need an independence referendum – all they have to do is return a majority of Scottish MPs to Westminster who are pro-independence.
Game over!
Brian Doonthetoon
Easy peasy. Game over. Let’s get on with our lives. 😉
Brian doonthetoon @ 10.45
While I agree with you that the General Election is potentially the fall back position.
Wouldn’t it be amazing if Nicola just announced that the next UK General Election was going to be an Independence one for us 🙂
No expensive Court cases, and the best bit… apparently every General Election takes place with a section 30 order 🙂
It would surely set the Cat among the Pigeons if she did…
Also what it would do is to set a date without setting a date.. especially a date that they would try to bury, they cannot recommend a boycott and they can’t channel all their funds to the British Nationalist parties in Scotland…
Yes would know exactly when to start campaigning..
The Westminster lot would never take the train up here they would be too busy trying to save their own arses in London!!
While it would be a real shame to have to exclude the Young and the EU Scots … the 2015 General Election proved it’s achievable…. And then they will always have their say!!!
I could so live with that as an option…
yesindyref2 says:
24 March, 2019 at 5:32 pm
@Breeks
Are you seriously quoting @AaronBastani?
Wanna try Leonard next, Corbyn or even Murray? Maybe Gordon Brown?
How about Alistair Campbell? Seems to be with the “in” crowd.
That should do it for the night NOW AitrUK
Oliver thinks
But does or did he know
There may be Anarchy in the rUK, but you can’t keep the night away
link to youtube.com
“Never b4 has a boy wanted more”
May aye PLAY THIS one again please
link to youtube.com
Tis but one of the elements
Aye might just keep doing this, if you don’t mind Wingers, not that aye care, but aye really do and music can do SO much for you
link to youtube.com
Just gotta listen
Ah guess that can ONLY be followed by Nick & the Co.
link to youtube.com
Whom else
Every thing begins wae Spring
link to youtube.com
Lifting it back up b4 4
yesindyref2 says:
24 March, 2019 at 5:32 pm
@Breeks
Are you seriously quoting @AaronBastani?
Wanna try Leonard next, Corbyn or even Murray? Maybe Gordon Brown?
Well, well, well, look what I found on Craig Marray’s blog…
“Reply ?
yesindyref2
March 24, 2019 at 04:02
Everyone is entitled to their views. Nobody is entitled to tell anyone else what their views should be.”
Away and shut your puss you two faced hypocrite.
Marnin’ Bonnie Scotland and beyond, oh what ah FUN day yesterday… looks like ah’ve ruffled a few feathers next door, GOOD, cause we wullnae WIN the GAME if yer sittin’ on yer hauns saying nothing, BE outraged, express yerself, it is a necessary component to gettin’ Indy, THIS next tune features John Bull on a sledge…
link to youtube.com
The above is cliff-edge Brexit in motion
Get yerselves battered intae the current main article y’all, ah wullnae bother ye’s the day… well until laters maybe 😉
Hey, this auld ZX spectrum game came back tae me just there, wow!
link to youtube.com
“That’s the difference, between whisky and you” said Chris
link to youtube.com
Keep venting adventurers
@Breeks
If you want to quote someone who seems to be a Labour party member Corbynite Brexiteer SNP-hater to support your apparent cause of desperation to remain in the EU, on you go!