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News of a world

Posted on July 19, 2018 by

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  1. 19 07 18 10:56

    News of a world | speymouth

302 to “News of a world”

  1. Ian Foulds says:

    Brilliant and an apparently well researched report. Did you learn your skills from BBC (not).

  2. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    That Israel bit was glorious.

    RIP Harry Spring.

  3. starlaw says:

    Excellent reporting, puts the BBC to shame.

  4. Sinky says:

    BBC Radio Scotland still failing to mention that half or more of service personnel in Scotland will be paying less in tax than their counterparts elsewhere in UK.

    Fair and balanced my ….

    This is why Mr Smith was sent to oversee the colonies.

  5. jfngw says:

    I’m sure the BBC will do an in depth study of the number of military personnel in Scotland, the numbers in each rank and the salary of these ranks. Then we can determine which ones are worse off being in Scotland, plus we will know the salaries of those being compensated the most. Saying 8000 are affected doesn’t mean anything as it could, probably does, include those that will pay less tax.

    Or the BBC will just be the mouthpiece of the UK government as per normal, which will it be we wonder.

  6. Ken500 says:

    The Open at Carnoustie famous worldwide. The Carnoustie Golf Hotel. Upgraded. Upgrade facilities all around. Another improved facilities and investment in Scotland. Nearby the City of Discovery upgraded and investments. World class improvements. A showcase. Now on the tourist trail. Decommissioning investment bring jobs and prosperity. St Andrews Fife etc world class facilities. Tourism and education. Along with Glasgow, the Conference Centre of the world. Edinburgh one of most visited capital in the world. The Festival will start soon.

  7. Robert Peffers says:

    As the military personnel in Scotland also get free prescription and the other benefits of residence in Scotland and the SHNS is independent from that of England, Wales and N.I. then perhaps the SG would be justified in excluding them from the extra freebies that are paid from the Scottish block grant.

    However, Scots pay the same as the rest of the United Kingdom towards this extra cash paid to military person’s posted to Scotland so in effect we Scots are funding both the extra benefits the military enjoy while in Scotland and the, “compensation”, they get for actually paying less overall tax while in Scotland.

    I’m more convinced than ever that unionists are either totally innumerate or, what is more likely, they fondly imagine that most of the people of Scotland are.

  8. jfngw says:

    The BBC always gives away its agenda with its language. An SNP story will be SNP accused, a Tory story will be Tories defend.

    You would almost think a SIU klavern is present on the banks of the Clyde at Plantation Quay.

  9. Valerie says:

    RIP Harry Spring, taken too soon.

    Thanks guys, we need a smile these days.

  10. marydoll says:


    On Radio2 now. Jeremy Vine discussing the military compensation.
    Sarah Smith on now…………………….

  11. Famous15 says:

    BBC allowing comments on a Scottish political story on tax on army pay.Perhaps they thought the SNP would get a battering? Many point out the facts that most squaddies will pay less but Generals more.BTW are there any Generals based in Scotland? Will Westminster compensate squaddies elsewhere as they are taxed more than in Scotland?A stunt gone wrong.

  12. Tom Halliday says:

    There are around 10k military personnel in Scotland, 20% at officer grade, cant find figures for sergeants but if we are generous and say 10%, that equates to around 2400, affected, less than a third of the BBC claims, the only way I can manage to get their figures is if I include the Scottish based MI5 and include the staff of the BBC Scotland.

  13. Les Wilson says:

    I would really like these guys to do a one off, serious, Scottish News, they are comfortable in their roll in front of the camera. I feel they have it in them to really become a source of truthful news regarding Scotland.

    Perhaps a bigger opportunity now for them than the sketches, which I like, as I did in Indy1. Just saying….I think they could deliver something much better with funding.Come on guys show the BBC how it’s done.

  14. HandandShrimp says:

    I liked the observation from someone in the SNP that said if Westminster wants to treat soldiers serving in Scotland as serving in a foreign country then we are comfortable with that.


  15. marydoll says:

    Jamie Hepburn superb!

  16. yesindyref2 says:

    James Dornan told Russian station RT earlier this week that a poll published that morning showed support for separation at 54 per cent.

    But no such poll existed, and he later said he had mistakenly believed a survey from more than two years ago was new because it had “popped up” on social media.

    We need to double-check everything, especially what’s on social media. It’s not the first time old news has surfaced and been presented as new news, and it won’t be the last.

  17. North Chiel says:

    Has the case against professor Clara Ponsati been dropped?

  18. Capella says:

    Spain has withdrawn the European Arrest Warrant from all the exiles including Clara Ponsati. From Stu’s twitter:

  19. GusI says:

    I assume that this extra compensation for the well paid in the military serving in Scotland will be subject to income tax. This means that the Scottish tax take will increase by about 41% of the 4 million pounds cost for this year so we should be grateful to westminster for this!

  20. Ken MacColl says:

    BBC Scotland continues in latest news bulletin at 1330 to use unbalanced and partial reportage on effect on Scottiah based services personnel of Tax changes from Holyrood. They appear quite desperate to highlight the plight of the higher ranked- and higher paid -staff while ignoring those who will benefit from those changes,

    Now there’s a surprise.Are newsreaders responsible for the content of what they read out and, if so, do they not care about accuracy and balance?

  21. Albert Herring says:

    @Tom Halliday

    “include the staff of the BBC Scotland”

    Quite. Occupation Force HQ.

  22. dakk says:

    O/T but maybe of interest to some.

    Was checking tonight’s Europa League fixtures and noticed Beitar Jerusalem have now changed their name to Beitar Trump Jerusalem in honour of the Donald.

    This right wing militia link Zionist club permanently renamed the day before Trump moved US Embassy to Jerusalem.

    I shall be a Chikhura Sachkhere fanatic this evening.

    More than a few thousand Rangers fans will be delighted to know they have a new recruit to their small band of hateful bigotted fellow clubs.

    Mon ra Chikhura Sachkhere.

  23. Flower of Scotland says:

    Brilliant! Loved it. Made my day

  24. dakk says:

    PS they also play at the Teddy Stadium.

    Wonder if that’s a nod to the Gers.

  25. Petra says:

    Anybody got any idea why 10,000 military personnel are based in Scotland and why the Scots are being sent south or elsewhere? Maybe the BBC / MSM could look into that one?

  26. Dr Jim says:

    BBC treats Scotland as a dumping ground for it’s failures:

    BBC so unhappy with being found guilty of attempting to create the news over the Cliff Richard scandal that the guy who was responsible for this attempt to subvert the truth and deceive the people of Britain has been sacked and given the job as head of news BBC SCOTLAND!

    Now I didn’t make that up

    Today on BBC radio Scotland John Beattie’s guests Anna Burnside and some other guy thought what the BBC did was pretty OK but they might have spoiled things for the rest of the rest of the *journalists* a bit

    The BBC News and Scottish so called *journalists* who do nothing but recycle newspaper garbage as news then defend their positions as *journalists* after they’ve done nothing and been caught doing nothing but recycling made up nothing

    Still, they have their code of *ethics* and *principles* to uphold don’t they

  27. Dr Jim says:


    They’re quoting that number to give the overall immpression that all the poor wee squaddies are having to pay more tax when in fact it’s a very small number who are paying more tax because it’s the higher ranked officers, but in fact it could be possible that lower ranks might be paying less tax, as I don’t know what the wage scale of soldiers is it would be hard to tell or how many higher ranked officers that would be

    But that wouldn’t make a good story if the news people were to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth or just explaining the simple facts for people
    so much easier to say SNP you know the rest

  28. Socrates MacSporran says:

    <petra @ 2.33pm

    There are believed to be two answers to your question re Scottish troops being sent south.

    One answer has it: if all the Scottish regiments were stationed in Scotand at the same time – the resultant inter-regimental battles would greatly breach the peace of Scotland and over-burden the polis sorting-out the jousting Jocks.

    The second answer has it: They just might rebel, march south, laying waste to the country and not stopping at Derby this time.

    Since neither option is acceptable – they keep them spread-out across the realm.

  29. Andy-B says:

    So the of late tacit Colonel Rape Clause Ruth Davidson, has surfaced in the Scotsman newspaper to have a pop at ex-FM Alex Salmond, over his RT show and to also attack Putin.

    Yet Ruthie hasn’t had lunch yet with the Russian donor who paid £20,000 pounds at a Tory fund raising auction in February. The lunch will be with one of Putin’s old cronies Lubov Chernukhin.

    Can we ever take Ruthie seriously again on anything? I for one think not.

  30. Ken500 says:

    GCHQ costs £1.9Billion and illegally surveillance is carried out throughout the world. In collusion with the CIA. Doing each other’s dirty work to twart the Law. They were illegally surveilling and bugging Trump. The Westminster Gov had to apologise.

    Edward Snowden released the redacted details. Now stuck in Russia. The Guardian was forced to destroy details by Cameron and Clegg sending in the Police to smash up the Mail room. Straw has been accused of condoning torture but has got away with it. False denial in face of detailed related facts and documentation. Blair is still not charged despite lying to Parliament and illegally killing and mainimg millions. Assange is still cooped up in the Embassy without any evidence or charge. Illegally detained by the UK authorities. Westminster dirty tricks for wiki leaks exposing the US/UK illegal actions.

  31. winifred mccartney says:

    I take it all these poor sqaddies paying more tax will be paying for their prescriptions and tuition fees etc since they are getting their tax back from the gracious WM.

  32. jfngw says:

    BBC Scotland news is run by someone described as defensive and evasive by a high court judge, don’t they say the ethos of an organisation trickles down from the top.

    Scotland’s controller says she has full confidence in him, so presumably this is just condoning behaviour found unacceptable by the high court.

    BBC Scotland once upon a time used to receive old hand my down technical equipment that was considered past it’s sell by date in London. I see this principle has now spread to other areas.

  33. Ken500 says:

    The SNP Conference agreed only over 18 year old should be trained take up combatant roles in line with other NATO countries. The army should not recruit in schools. Or target areas of deprivation.

  34. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Armed Forces Salaries:-

    Private – £19,831
    L/Corp – £28,721
    Corporal – £32,960

    The other ranks can be found here:-

  35. Ken500 says:

    A MOD letter dated 1st July 2015 put the total number at 17,000 7.1% out of a trial of 250,000 UK total. Not just Army personnel. TA etc.

  36. Ken500 says:

    MOD Freedom of Information reply dated October 2015. ‘As of 1st July 2015’ – projected nos for 2016/17. MOD military and civilian personnel in Scotland. 17,000 (7.1%). Out of a UK total of 249,000?

    Based overseas even more? More Foreign Ministry personnel overseas. + Civil servants. GCHQ and Intelligence service. Massive premises and facilities in London. On the Mall and elsewhere.

    UK has the third highest MOD spending (pro rata) in the world. Saudi 1st (pro rata)

    US (230Million pop) Defence spending $611Billion 2nd highest in the world. Unaffordable. The bigger debt (Pro rata).

  37. Dr Jim says:

    So when soldiers are in Afganistan do they pay Afgan rates of taxation, or if they’re based anywhere in the world do they pay the local rate of that country or the now English rate, or does this nonsense only apply to Jockistan

    Or are they just playing silly bugger stupid childish *we hate the SNP* games

  38. Ken500 says:

    MOD – 10,000 military personnel. 4,000 Reserve, 3,800 civilian personnel based in Scotland.

    Scotland pays on average £4Billion for Defence. £1Billion Trident. £3Billion for 17,000 personnel. Bit steep. SNP Gov reckon £1/2Billion+ could be cut off that bill. Reduced costs. For other projects. Or feeding people.

  39. Thepnr says:

    There’s nothing better than some facts.

    For those that are interested all the Army pay scales for 2017/18 can be seen here:

    The total number of military personnel bsed in Scotland as of 1st Oct 2017 was 9970 and of these 1290 were Officers and 8680 Other Ranks. In addition to the military there were also 3970 civilians employed by the MOD in Scotland.

    You will need to download the Excel spreadsheet if you want more detail broken down to local authority from the link here:

    So if we are only talking military here then there is something very iffy about the reported 8000 who have been affected by the tax changes. Sure they will all have been affected but how many will be paying more is the question?

    Well looking at the payscale link it would seem that a few full Corporals and above might pay a few pounds a year more but the great majority of lance Corporals and all the privates will be paying less. Even some Officers will be paying less as they earn less than £26,000/year.

    I think it is safe to say that maybe a maximum of 4000 out of the nearly 10,000 will be paying more and the biggest beneficiaries of this tax rebate from Westminster will be those much higher up the ladder than your typical squaddie.

    The other main beneficiaries of course are the propaganda arm of Westminster, the BBC and the Tory party as they chalk up yet another SNP bad story with maximum coverage.

  40. Ian Brotherhood says:

    That’s powerful stuff on Israel.

    If anyone involved with the production of Dateline wasn’t on the BBC’s ‘alleged’ blacklist, they will be now.

    Max Keiser/Frankie Boyle –

  41. Ken500 says:

    Is overseas not tax free? If stationed abroad for over 90 days. Less than 90 days in the UK. Top heavy with Admirals. More Admirals than ships. Top heavy command being reorganised. Redundant weaponry and not enough essential equipment. No balance.

  42. Dr Jim says:

    Just looked it up and it’s been confirmed by the Ferret and SNP website, nobody earning less than £33.000 pays more tax because of changes to the personal allowance which makes Douglas Ross the BBC and the UK Government big fat giant liars

    Except for like generals and such who are earning squillions and that likely makes the Tories so who cares about them anyway

  43. Referendum1707 says:

    Comment from previous thread and it’s one of the most salient I’ve seen on here for a while.

    Robert Louis says:
    19 July, 2018 at 9:30 am
    “Just read the piece by Gordon McIntyre Kemp in the National about indy timetable. Aye right!! More ‘lets delay the referendum again kite flying by SNP leadership. Get on with it.

    Do the SNP think folks like myself are going to hang around until they finally get their freaking act together and call a referendum that should have been called two years ago? simple answer NO. Indeed I will never forgive them if brexit happens in Scotland – as I have stated here before.

    I really do not know what they are smoking at SNP HQ, but it isn’t helping them. They talk of post brexit like everything will be just as it is now, but it won’t, and here’s the real killer, guess who the massed ranks of the britnat media will be blaming for any post brexit problems in Scotland – Aye that’s right, the Scottish Government and SNP.

    If referendum is not called by September, I’ll have had enough and will seriously be looking at my options for moving elsewhere if I can (out of the UK). I am not going to sit around and watch as Brexit unfolds in Scotland, with an SNP government in placee sitting back watching too, whilst fretting over just when a brexit deal will be finalised and if they should wait another year or two before indyref2.

    No, it is time for some leadership, and a hell of a lot less of this ‘tee hee, why interrupt our enemies while they make mistakes’ etc. Yes, sitting watching as they utterly destroy Scotland and close our parliament – and make no mistake that IS going to happen. A government of ‘national unity’ will be the cover, and they are already openly talking about it – and planning it.

    No, we have waited long enough. I know Brexit is a mess, I know things are not yet clear – but THEY NEVER WILL BE. Does anybody seriously expect things will be clearer in 2019 or 2020, or 2021.

    There is a REAL disconnect here between the real tangible fear people have about brexit, and those who seemingly philosophise about how ‘if we just wait one more month, or year, or maybe until the next election, or maybe until brexit happens, and so on. Their is a name for such behaviour, it is called PROCRASTINATION.

    Once brexit starts, the public attitude will shift. They will not view it as they do now, they will regard it as something that HAS happened already, not as something that can be changed via independence. And they will be afraid, and the overriding thought will not be independence, it will be we’d best stick together with the UK, since without them we are f*cked.

    Their will NEVER be ‘just the right time’ to call a referendum, their will never be ‘clarity about brexit’, it will never be a ‘tidy, complete deal’. It is going to be messy for years and possibly decades. We should call the referendum ASAP. Enough is enough.

    The people of Scotland have given The SNP Scottish Government a clear unequivocal mandate to call a referendum – and that is something they MUST do. NO more delays, no more of this tosh about waiting.

    Oh, and just one final thought, I am sick and tired of all this rubbish about DIY independence. I regard that as possibly the dumbest nonsense I have heard in all my days. Indeed I would go further and now regard it as a piece of political spin, to persuade indy supporters that it is somehow THIER fault a referendum can’t be called – ‘oh, if only people would get the polls to show 55% indy support etc…’ It is frankly despicable. Yes, indy groups are re-forming and yes people are trying to get active, but NOBODY is going to start taking notice, UNTIL A REFERENDUM IS ACTUALLY CALLED (and that includes Westminster btw).

    Get on with it, FFS. Just freaking well get on with it. Their will NEVER be a perfect time.”/endquote

    Only thing I disagree with in it is the comment that indyref2 should have been called 2 years ago. Don’t know where he’s coming from with that.

    I always make a point of reading Peter A. Bell’s stuff. Pity there aren’t more like him in or near the SNP leadership. Check out his response below to GMK’s shit-brained nonsense advising yet more procrastination. We really don’t need people like GMK who have no real idea of what’s at stake. Yessers and SNP members need to make it clear to the leadership in no uncertain terms that the time for politely faffing about is over and it’s now time to start ACTING accordingly.

  44. Les Wilson says:

    From the Ferret, the Tory dark money/trust has assets of £2.35 million.
    So I guess they will splash a lot on that in Indy2!

  45. K1 says:

    I would say this immediate removal of current MP’s names for breaching standard’s, from the Parliament’s website, is a direct result from the Cliff Richard case.

    Being described as a ‘landmark ruling’.

    And I quote:

    ‘Labour MP Jess Phillips said if the courts could maintain both anonymity for victims and transparency for the accused, Parliament could do it too.’

    And another snippet:

    ‘Labour MP Sir Kevin Barron said: “We perfectly agree the issue about sexual harassment and bullying and harassment needs confidentiality to make sure that people will come forward and will speak out so that actions can be taken.’

    It’s a well known fact that actually publishing the names of those accused of sexual abuse/harassment, often leads to other victims coming forward. All organisations dealing with csa including the police are aware of this reality? The whole edifice of Weinstein collapsed because some brave souls went ‘public’ not ‘private’. Privately paying off people is what a lot of these corrupt bastards have been doing for decades, nay centuries.

    But now, they have used the ruling against the BBC to immediately remove all current investigations underway about corrupt politicians from their website.

    They are definitely circling the wagons.

    ‘MPs just voted to keep corruption and sex harassment investigations into MPs secret’

  46. Hamish100 says:

    referendum 1707/ Robert louis the stevenston

    get on with it, now! , yesterday, your not get my vote if you don’t.


    When the referendum comes you choose to vote for Brexit or Independence. But we NEED to win this time. No ifs, no buts.
    The First Minister knows what she is doing. Thetories and labour are fighting each other , the lib dems are well, who?

    Those shouting now! maybe spend your effort in preparing the ground if not? why not?

  47. Les Wilson says:

    How many Scottish troops are in the UK army? I do not know but would like to.
    I do remember reading somewhere a while ago that 2/3rds of the SAS
    are Scottish, if they, came back to a SDF, think it worry them a wee bit.

  48. Clapper57 says:

    These guys are brilliant….some welcome respite from all of the current s***e !

    My God do we need a laugh or what !!!!!!!

    I am drained trying to keep up with everything that is going on…this stuff helps you chill and recharge your batteries …ready for next onslaught of ‘Breaking’ news !

    Keep it up guys you are fab !!

  49. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Les Wilson

    Agree that the Dateline folk deserve funding, but IMO not for anything conventionally serious. They’re really good at what they do (the writing is fantastic) and they should keep doing that. The Israel report was a perfect example of them not needing to ditch the humour to get a point across.

  50. Bobp says:

    K1 4.46pm. Unless you are an snp bad mp.

  51. Brian Doonthetoon says:


    Orange Walk called off after Glasgow Priest attack

    An Orange march, due to take place in Glasgow on Saturday, has been cancelled. Glasgow City Council confirmed the walk would not go ahead following a meeting with the organisers. The Orange Lodge said the postponement would allow time for further discussions.

  52. Valerie says:

    @BDTT. 5.59

    That is indeed a bit of good news.

    NI is like a tinderbox right now. Those charged with our protection, and peaceful streets, are right in cancelling anything that is sectarian and provocative.

  53. call me dave says:

    Just got a Facebook message.

    Orange Walk called off after Glasgow Priest attack
    An Orange march, due to take place in Glasgow on Saturday, has been cancelled.

    Glasgow City Council confirmed the walk would not go ahead following a meeting with the organisers. The Orange Lodge said the postponement would allow time for further discussions.

  54. call me dave says:

    Hmm! Dollar short and a day late! 🙂

  55. yesindyref2 says:

    The problem is this:

    At the end of the Brexit process, when the final deal is known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.

    Brexit must not be forced on Scotland no matter how damaging it turns out to be. Last year’s Holyrood election gave us the democratic go-ahead for an independence referendum. The recent vote of Scotland’s national Parliament has backed this up. If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats in this election, that would mean we have been given the democratic go-ahead three times.

    and similar in the full 2017 SNP General Election manifesto.

    If Brexit is forced on Scotland and the SNP do NOT hold an independence referendum, their manifesto promises aren’t worth the electrons they’re written on, so why on earth would anyone vote for them for any next election? They could promise instant independence – well, they would have broken their promises last time, so why would anyone be taken in, in 2021 or 2022?

    So far they have broken no promises, they have kept the faith, and their word, and that will be so until the Brexit negotiations are complete, or at least their result is known.

    So far.

  56. mike cassidy says:

    Background to that Beitar Trump Jerusalem name change.

    Not a great surprise in a country whose political establishment starts to embrace apartheid.

  57. Hamish100 says:

    Maybe someone with the tech can compare the BBC RUK NEWS on the puir wee army generals having to pay more tax and the BBC Scotland version. Refreshingly it showed up the English ministers attack on the natz tax before he runs off.

  58. Tinto Chiel says:

    ‘MPs just voted to keep corruption and sex harassment investigations into MPs secret.’

    @K1 4.46: are you sure 😉 ?

    I’ve heard nothing about this massive story in my dipping in and out of Pravdasound4 today and I’m having a post-prandial swatch at C4 news at my daughter’s. Top story on Sainted Jon Snow’s Prog is 1) falling crime conviction rates in England 2) more incredible Salisbury hokum from a stumbling, mumbling rookie reporter 3) more incredible anti-Rusky hokum re American elections and “Russian dirty money laundering” and “homicidal” Putin. No mention of all that dosh swilling around London and the Tories, though.

    How can folk watch this stuff every night? Can’t be good for your health.

    Don’t have nightmares…..

  59. Dave McEwan Hill says:


    Extremely biased survey about the NHS on Scotpulse

  60. Donald Bruce says:

    As soldiers are getting extra to pay for overseas expenses. Will the Westminster government pay for parking fines imposed on their employees working at the Westminster embassy in Edinburgh. It is normally paid for other overseas diplomats

  61. stewartb says:

    Tinto Chiel @ 7:23 pm

    You wrote: “.. I’m having a post-prandial swatch at C4 news at my daughter’s. Top story on Sainted Jon Snow’s Prog is 1) falling crime conviction rates in England .. ”

    Not so ‘sainted’ this evening! The piece on new (negative) stats on crime rates, conviction rates and policing was headlined/introduced as ‘bad’ in Britain. Only later in the programme, when full details were given, are we told that the bad news story was only about England and Wales.

    E-mail sent immediately to the C4 newsroom complaining and urging them to do ‘better’.

  62. Ken500 says:

    2016/17 forecast. MOD freedom of information letter. Top on google. October 2015 Letter.

    MOD personnel in Scotland. 1st July 2015.

    10,000 Military, 4,000 in reserve, 3,800 civilian personnel. – 17,800. (7.1)

    Out of total of 249,000 In UK. Confirmed in figures further down.

    + Foreign Office Personnel – £Billions,

    + GCHQ – £1.9

    The army/military was made of 80% people from Scotland in the past because of higher (pro rata) unemployment. Changed.

  63. Ken500 says:

    The Westminster unionists another criminal cover up. They really are the most disgusting creatures. Even more cover up. Plus the crimes under the Official Secrets Act. They have already covered up child abuse. Destroyed the documented evidence. Hague as Home Secretary before retiring. To the Lords? The Saville cover up. They made him a Sir. Filthy disgusting creature. BBC malicious policies and duplicity.

    Iraq, Lockerbie, Dunblane kept secret for 100 years.

  64. PacMan says:

    re: Orange walks

    There may be valid reasons for an organised procession to take a certain route. One of these may be historical.

    As far as I know, the Orange walks in Scotland are not celebrating a historical event that occurred in Scotland which gives them a reason to rigidly follow a certain route. Also, as far as I know, it has no traditions which requires them to follow a route, other than that they have always done it. This gives them scope to change the course of the route if they choose to.

    Regardless of whether the troubles in relations to chapels are caused by members of the Orange Order who are marching or those that choose to follow them, it does. I’m not a Catholic, nor am I a church goer but I could imagine something going to a Chapel for religious or any purpose would feel intimidated or frightened with these marches occurring outside.

    Regardless of whether you believe Orange order walks should be allowed or not, I do feel that both sides should come together and agree that routes taken by these marches should be amended so they are not near places of worship by any religion which could cause fear or intimidation.

    It isn’t too much to ask of the Orangeman to make slight changes of their routes, is it?

  65. Ken500 says:

    The Orange Order is a bigoted, misogynistic,racist, unequal, semi quasi secret association. Not everyone can join. They discriminate. They do not obey UK Law. They should not be patrolling the streets financed by public money. If they want to march and parade they should do it on private land at their own expense. Not upset others destroying the economy.

  66. Ken500 says:

    They are banned in most Cities in Scotland, These marches are not tolerated. The Police make objection under public order. It is particularly in Glasgow they are marching all the time. People are shocked to find by how much they march in Glasgow.

    Carnoustie looks good. Great weather. Scotland is absolutely great in the sunshine. Looks and feels different.

  67. Robert Peffers says:

    O/T: well kinds O/T.

    Perhaps the, “Troop Tax”, story is being used as the smoke screen for the news from ower the border. Like these news items on BBC text service:-

    Only 9% of crimes in England & Wales result in suspects being charged. According to Home Office Figures and that is the lowest detection rate since 2015. Data also shows that Police closed just under half, (48%), of cases because no suspects could be identified and it is the fourth year running that homicides had increased.

    Apparently Tory Chief Whip, Julian Smith, told Tory MP, Brandon Lewis, to break a voting pact, (pairing), with a LibDem MP, Jo Swinton, “By Accident”. Oh! Dear!

    Under=pressure English NHS services are spending over one billion pound per year buying care from outside the English NHS because they cannot keep up with demand. The costs are being racked up by hospitals, ambulances and mental health trusts Westminster data shows. English NHS managers say money is being wasted because the private care is arranged at the last minute and results in the English NHS over-paying.

    The most common purchase by the English NHS is thought to be for care like hip & knee joint treatments.

    The English NHS “Care Quality Commission’s”, review of Radiology practices says there should be a limit upon how long it takes to report the results of patients’ X-rays and scans. They found the practices in English NHS A & E departments varied from one hour to two working days.

    In the English NHS system Children & adults can face a wait of more than two years for an assessment of Autism. English National guidelines state that the diagnosis process should start within three months of being referred.

    The English NHS Joint Committee on Vaccination has advised the English NHS they should be extending the immunisation against the jap that protects against the HPV Virus that protects against cervical cancer that is routinely given to teenaged girls to also be given to teenaged boys.

    Both the Scottish and Welsh NHS have already extended the immunisation to boys.

    I wonder what the motive is for the Scottish branch offices of the Westminster unionists to carry out a relentless campaign against the Scottish NHS?

    Surely it couldn’t be hat they are trying to work a smokescreen for their party members iat Westminster – or could it?

  68. PacMan says:

    If you thought Brexit wasn’t going well, read this..

    The Government’s Brexit white paper was translated into German so badly it barely makes sense in parts

    Loved this quote from article:

    Regarding the contents, a German speaker in Brussels told the Independent that the unorthodox choice of words in the paper gave it a “very mythical” feeling.

    Twitter user Oscar D Torson said the paper must have been translated by someone who learned the language but never spoke it, and added: “What does ‘Fischergemeinden’ even mean? People praying for fish?”

    and this one:

    One Dutch Twitter user wrote: “Dear UK government. We appreciate the effort and you probably have no clue, but please stick to English if you want us to understand you. This is horrible. Kind regards, The Netherlands.”

  69. Tinto Chiel says:

    @stewartb 7.43: not surprised at the later Channel 4 E&W revelations re crime convictions. I salute your indefatigability in e-mailing C4 but, as a company with HMG as a majority shareholder, it has to #ScotlandBad (here by omission) like the rest.

    Radio 4 constantly agonises about out-of-control stabbings in London but almost never mentions the SG measures which have seen Scottish knife crime plummet.

    It’s the way they tell ’em, unfortunately, and it’s only going to get worse once indy-battle commences.

  70. If UK Gov are going to compensate service personnel if they pay a higher tax in Scotland compared to England,

    surely UK Gov should compensate service personnel if they pay a higher tax in England compared to Scotland,

    gotta look after oor brave sujers whether in Scotland or Englandshire.

  71. Rock says:


    Peace has broken out between the African countries of Ethiopia and Eritrea.

    The merchants of death in Europe and USA are not happy about it. They are warning about job losses at weapons of death manufacturers. Trade unions are warning of strikes if the death jobs are threatened.

    Senior merchant of death, Tony Blair, is on his way to Africa to re-start the war process immediately.

    The populist, fascist, xenophobic, right wing government of Italy says peace and progress in Africa is a good thing and will stem the migration of half of Africa to Italy.

    President Trump, heavily critisised by “progressive Liberals” in the West for trying to make peace with Russia, has not tweeted yet.

    Truth always.

  72. Legerwood says:

    Tinto Chiel says:
    19 July, 2018 at 7:23 pm
    ‘MPs just voted to keep corruption and sex harassment investigations into MPs secret.’

    @K1 4.46: are you sure ? ?

    Kathy Newman, CH4 news tonight, interviewed Ms Leadsom the issue. Not sure she got very far with Ms Leadsom who seemed to think it was a wonderful thing to do and made Parliament world leaders!!

    Also on CH4 tonight main item was the crime stats for England and Wales. In his intro to this section Jon Snow twice referred to the stats being for Britain. It was only when he was about to hand over to the main reporter that he said the stats were for England and Wales although I think the main report was clear about that point.

    If however you had walked out of the room after Jon Snow’s initial, brief intro you would have thought it applied across the board.

  73. ben madigan says:

    O/T – some thoughts on epigenetics, the Scottish cringe and the brexit potential for inter-generational harm


  74. admiral says:

    Re the UK government “compensating” service for “higher” taxes in Scotland – will these people and their families be required to pay prescription charges and fees for their children at university?

  75. yesindyref2 says:

    “Truth always”

    Grun? Rider000? Scotsman?

    Memory is a fragile thing. Maybe someone with something like “stats” in their username. Anybody remember? Was a unionist anyway.

  76. Footsoldier says:

    Gavin Williamson refusing to answer Bernard Ponsonby on the tax position for armed forces – Williamson comes over as a complete cretin but gets away with slagging SNP and doesn’t mention benefits.

    See it here just over 4 mins in.

  77. Footsoldier says:

    UK tax compensation for armed forces.

    Here is the snappy reply from Derek Mackay Finance Secretary which shows how very angry (sorry – disappointed) the SNP are at another insult. A bit like being savaged by the dead sheep of Geoffrey Howe fame.

    “As a result of the Scottish government’s progressive tax system 70% of people in Scotland are paying less tax this year than they did last year for a given income and we hope those who have seen their tax bills reduce will not be disadvantaged by the UK government’s proposals.

    “We are fully committed to supporting the armed forces community and armed forces families in Scotland benefit from services not available elsewhere in the UK, such as free school meals, prescriptions and eye tests, and tuition fee and living cost support in higher education when they are ordinarily resident.

    “It is disappointing that, despite making an offer to discuss the differential taxation of military personnel, the Scottish government has not been consulted on the proposal announced by the MoD.”

  78. Sinky says:

    I must have missed the BBC national news item on how Scots Gov spend over £100 million a year mitigated Tory welfare cuts which dwarfs the £4 million for armed forces.
    Another example of bbc double standards.

  79. Sinky says:

    UK Daily Express headline Lawless Britain and London media again don’t differentiate between England and UK.

  80. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rock (9.10) –

    You’ve been warned, along with abody else here, about sloganising (i.e. ‘Truth Always’) so kindly stop doing it.

  81. Breeks says:

    PacMan says:
    19 July, 2018 at 8:33 pm

    If you thought Brexit wasn’t going well, read this..

    The Government’s Brexit white paper was translated into German so badly it barely makes sense in parts

    Loved this quote from article:

    Regarding the contents, a German speaker in Brussels told the Independent that the unorthodox choice of words in the paper gave it a “very mythical” feeling.

    Twitter user Oscar D Torson said the paper must have been translated by someone who learned the language but never spoke it, and added: “What does ‘Fischergemeinden’ even mean? People praying for fish?”

    and this one:

    One Dutch Twitter user wrote: “Dear UK government. We appreciate the effort and you probably have no clue, but please stick to English if you want us to understand you. This is horrible. Kind regards, The Netherlands.”

    Yes, but there was a message which Europe read loud and clear – The UK wants to bypass the EU’s appointed negotiator Michel Barnier, and appeal to individual EU member states directly.

    Even now, at this late stage, the UK is still utterly clueless about EU protocol and is still bumbling about in the dark like a complete amateur. It is simply embarrassing, but it is also inexcuseable.

  82. Thepnr says:


    There’s a simple explanation for why the BBC and the rags use Britain in their headlines instead of England and that is that they simply can’t allow the truth to be known about how much better run Scotland is despite their limited powers.

    If the English knew that then it wouldn’t go done too well, it’s not to wind up us, the Scots (we matter little) it’s to keep the English happy with the gruel they are being served by their own excuse for a government.

  83. Petra says:

    BBC Scotland reporting on the Clara Ponsati situation ending with “Clara Ponsati has brought the Catalonian crisis to Scotland’s door.”

    Imagine that, one wee half-decent wummin actually outdoing the Westminster Corrupt Club. It would suit them better to outline in DETAIL the harsh realities of the Brexit crisis looming for all of Scotland in the very near future.

  84. Petra says:

    Brexit and Civil Aviation ~ Irish Taoiseach issues warning:

    ‘Mr Leo Varadkar is the Taoiseach of Ireland. Speaking after a cabinet meeting in Derrynane House, Co Kerry, Leo Varadkar claimed Ireland’s airspace may be out of bounds for UK jets if they go down the route of a hard Brexit and ban the EU from fishing in their waters…..’

  85. Petra says:

    Wee Ginger Dug: As part of the UK, Scotland will be invisible to the world.

    …”Last weekend, when Donald Trump was giving an interview to Brown Noser in Chief Piers Morgan, he waxed lyrical about British branding. The UK has a lot of great product, apparently. One of the things that impressed Trump most about Great British product was the fact that there are different names for it. “You can say ‘England’, boored Trump, “you can say ‘UK’, you can say ‘United Kingdom’.”

    As far as Trump is concerned, the terms UK, United Kingdom, and England are synonyms. That’s why his White House staff had tweeted on Friday that the president had left the UK and was on his way to Scotland. It wasn’t, much as we’d like to imagine so, a subtle recognition that Scotland is on its way to independence….”

  86. Petra says:

    Kirsty Hughes: What’s likely to happen with Brexit now?

    ”With UK politics, in particular the politics of the Conservative party and the Government, fracturing more deeply day by day, the way ahead looks highly uncertain and unstable. The March 2019 deadline looms. But, broadly, there are four main scenarios as to where we may get to by the autumn.

    Scenario 1: Brexit Goes Ahead.

    IF Theresa May strikes a deal with the EU and it passes at Westminster – and at the European Parliament and European Council – then the UK will be set to leave the EU on March 29, 2019. This would mean an Irish backstop has been agreed as part of the overarching withdrawal agreement and a political declaration setting out the framework for the future relationship was also agreed. In such a scenario, either the Tory Brexiters and Remainers have all stayed on board and voted for May’s deal or, much less likely, some opposition party votes have helped May through. The extent of economic damage to the UK and the extent of democratic damage through becoming a “rule-taker” will depend on the deal – but there is no harmless deal to be had either economically or politically.

    Scenario 2: Deal Fails at Westminster.

    IF May’s deal with the EU is rejected at Westminster, then the UK will face a major political and economic crisis with substantial turbulence in stock markets and the pound likely to fall sharply. A General Election may need to be called rapidly – perhaps to take place in early 2019. Meanwhile, the Government should then ask the EU for a delay in Article 50 – which in the face of a chaotic no-deal Brexit, the EU may agree to. Either as an alternative to an election or after an election, there may be increased public and political pressure for a further EU referendum.

    Scenario 3: No Deal with the EU.

    IF May is unable to shift closer to EU positions, and at the same time to agree an acceptable Irish backstop, then there may be no deal for Westminster to vote on. Both sides will want to avoid such a chaotic outcome and the question of extending Article 50 may come up if there is no agreement on a deal by the end of 2018.

    In the face of no deal, there will be pressure from the public and at Westminster for a solution to the ensuing crisis – whether for a General Election, a further EU referendum or a new negotiating approach to the EU.

    Scenario 4: The UK stays in the EU.

    This scenario could result from a range of developments. Depending on how turbulent UK politics becomes in the coming weeks and months, there might be a majority (where there isn’t now) at Westminster to hold a further EU referendum – whether a repeat referendum or one on a deal if it has been struck. Or, such a referendum might be a condition of LibDem support for a minority Labour government after a General Election – though it would probably need SNP support for such a position too. Public opinion might shift sharply towards Remain, both increasing pressure for a further vote and leading to a clear Remain result in such a vote. Political divisions in England in particular would nonetheless continue. Politically, the EU would need to support such an outcome.

    Overall, it is clear that unless May produces a deal that gets backing at Westminster, then political volatility and divisions will continue probably resulting in a General Election and a request to extend Article 50 and possibly a further EU referendum. If a deal does pass at Westminster, the UK will be embarking on a path towards marginalisation in Europe, to less global influence, and to economic self-harm. Domestic political divisions would continue as EU-UK talks moved on to the future relationship – and as the Irish backstop remained as one possible route ahead.

    In Scotland, pressures for a further independence referendum would probably grow. Staying in the EU looks like the sanest path but political divisions in England in particular would remain deep.

    There is no easy escape route for the UK from its turbulent Brexit path – and the English populist genie that the 2016 referendum let out will not easily go back in its bottle.”

  87. Danny says:

    Something a little lighter:

    “YES supporters are being urged to tune up their vocal cords and get on their way to record a Proclaimers classic to Sing4Scotland in time for an independence rally in Inverness at the end of this month.”

  88. Danny says:

    The phrase “No Deal Brexit” is becoming more and more mainstream over the last few days.

    Gearing the UK public up for what is turning out to be the only option left on the table that will work.

    And “No Deal Brexit” is our ticket out of the UK.

  89. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The Ferret has dismantled the lie about troops paying more in Scotland.The Ferret is going from strength to strength .

  90. jfngw says:


    England is pretty much split down the middle on Brexit and I can only see Scenario 3 now taking place. 1 & 2 seem totally unlikely as I can’t see them either agreeing a deal or getting one through Westminster. I would be surprised if even the EU wants Scenario 4, it hasn’t solved anything, the agitation to leave will continue, it is merely kicking the can down the road.

    The solution for Scotland is clear, the bad news is we would have a badly fractured society as our nearest neighbour.

  91. Scottish Steve says:

    That was brave (and right) of them to criticise Israel like that. Watch out, guys. You’ll be accused of being vile anti-Semites any day now.

  92. Chick McGregor says:

    Inadvertently caught distorting Scotland, they said a colonel would pay over £1000 more in tax in Scotland. How many squaddies to the Colonel are there?

    Maybe it is like Italy where I read once many years ago, that there were 3 admirals for every ship in the Italian navy.

  93. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill
    Got a link for that? I’ve done it in a couple of places and keep messing up because of the £2,000 at 19% rather than 20% as an offset, and just mis-=flaming-typoing where there’s no edit facility. Would save my tired old neurons strain to just get their figures (having checked them).

    But the counter claim in the National that up to £33,000 nobosy pays more tax according to SPICe is also wrong, that’s more tax than last year becaue of the personal allowance, NOT more than the rUK. Counter-spin is just as bad as spin, and WE don’t need it. The truth shall set us free.

  94. K1 says:

    Yeah, Smallaxe posted the link to Kirsty Hughes article this morning on previous thread, link:

  95. yesindyref2 says:

    OK, found it. From The Ferret:

    According to the SPICe calculations, those earning up to to £33,000 will pay less in tax than they will in the current year 2017-18.

    When compared to the rest of the UK, those earning up to £26,000 will not face a higher tax bill, despite being in the higher 21 per cent tax bracket.

    I worked it out (eventually) and agree.

  96. yesindyref2 says:

    So maybe this is the real start of the simplified public awareness we need.

    What happens if UK leaves EU without a deal?

    The stance of the Herald used to be Home Rule for Scotland, increased devolution, and staying in the EU. What will it be now?

  97. Liam says:

    Re Brexit. According to the Telegraph

    “The Dutch version [of the Brexit White Paper] was described in a leading newspaper as reading like something put through the “cheapest available” translation software. It also mis-spelt Edinburgh as Edinburg”.

    They can’t even spell the names of our cities right!

  98. ronnie anderson says:

    Liam could be worser Trump translator Edinbro lol.

  99. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Dave McEwan Hill, 11.47pm, 19th July

    And as much as it irks me, credit to Thepnr for his 4.15pm post allowing folk to see just how many (or few) of the total military staff are above the £33K mark.

  100. Smallaxe says:

    £7.7 million for South of Scotland projects;

    Scotland: the best deal for taxpayers of anywhere in the UK;

    If an outright mandate for independence is sought at a parliamentary election, it should be done at Holyrood 2021, not Westminster 2022;

  101. misteralz says:

    Ronnie, that link is four months old!

  102. Smallaxe says:

    MSPs ‘wilfully’ blocked from helping constituents with problems claiming benefits by UK government;

    They don’t want us to survive. Eviction proceedings. Universal Credit cruelty never ends;


  103. Smallaxe says:

    “Mr Paisley was conscious of the potential embarrassment that would be caused to him…”;


    The UK’s industrial supply chains are dependent on European manufacturers;

  104. Smallaxe says:

    Brexit: closing in;

    New York investigating whether Trump Foundation violated state tax laws: report;

    MPs who fiddle their expenses will be given anonymity under new plans;

  105. Smallaxe says:

    Brexit: What happens to Britain if the UK leaves the EU without a deal?;

    EU says preparations needed to avoid Brexit no-deal ‘meltdown’ amid fears of UK government ‘volatility’;

    The Conservative chief whip is facing calls to quit over claims he urged three of his MPs to break pairing arrangements to win a crucial Commons vote on Brexit.;

  106. Smallaxe says:

    Survival of the richest: The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind;

    Israel should be shunned as an Apartheid State, says Irish senator;

    Public toilet closed by Moray Council to cut costs to be re-opened;

  107. Smallaxe says:

    UK Treasury to relax border taxes in ‘no-deal’ Brexit
    move would raise concerns over tax evasion but could be needed to keep goods flowing;

    Theresa May: I will never accept EU’s ideas on Irish Brexit border;

    Boris – A PM in waiting!;

  108. Smallaxe says:

    UK consumers facing price hikes and more imported produce on shelves;

    Brexit could mean a return to food rationing;

    MPs to hear Scottish fruit growers’ concerns over labour shortages;

  109. Smallaxe says:

    Turbine size increase sought at wind farm near Loch Doon;

    Survey suggests slowdown in number of Scots moving home;

    ‘Horrifying’ new rule keeps corruption and sexual harassment in parliament a secret;

  110. Smallaxe says:

    Lords puzzled as Home Office seeks more leeway in using child informants against gangs, terrorists;

    Potential presidential candidate offered free tickets to councillors;

    WATCH: Ireland ready ‘if proverbial hits the fan’ – Leo Varadkar on Brexit;

  111. Danny says:

    The Guardian:

    “Theresa May: I will never accept EU’s ideas on Irish Brexit border”

    Theresa May is to tell the European Union it is time to drop what she feels is their inflexible view on an Irish border solution and “evolve” their position to break the impasse in Brexit talks.

    In a speech in Belfast on Friday she is expected to brand the bloc’s calls for regulatory alignment north and south of the border as a “backstop” solution in the event of no deal as “unworkable”, and repeat her assertion that a border down the Irish Sea is unacceptable to any British prime minister.

    “The economic and constitutional dislocation of a formal ‘third country’ customs border within our own country is something I will never accept, and I believe no British prime minister could ever accept,” she will say.

    May will tell an audience of business leaders and politicians that the EU proposal is in breach of the Belfast Agreement because it would create a barrier between Northern Ireland and Great Britain and leave the people of Northern Ireland “without their own voice” in trade negotiations. “It is not something the House of Commons will accept,” she is due to say.

    May’s decision to push back so strongly against the EU and Ireland’s demands for a backstop will fuel fears in Dublin that she is backsliding on the joint agreement in December to secure insurance in the event of no deal.

    Her opposition to a border in the Irish sea was cemented on Monday when a last- minute amendment to the customs bill, tabled by the Labour MP Kate Hoey, was nodded through making it illegal to have a barrier between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

    May is on a two-day visit to Ireland – her first to the Irish border. She spent two hours meeting business leaders at a pottery factory in the village of Belleek on the Fermanagh and Donegal borders, but did not take questions from reporters.

    Before leaving the factory, May met local woman Delma Käthner, who told her she was “bionic”. “She’s coped with so much,” said Käthner. “She has a terrible job. Just look at the way her shoulders are hunched. She has the whole weight of Brexit on her.”

    Inside the EU, both Ireland and Northern Ireland (as part of the UK) are part of the single market and customs union so share the same regulations and standards.

    The only way to avoid a hardening of the border after Brexit is to ensure regulations and standards on both sides remain more or less the same in areas like food, medicines and so on.

    This might imply a permanent acceptance of EU rules – something that would be anathema to hardline UK Brexiters and the DUP, who reject anything that would “decouple” the North from the UK.

    David Davis told parliament that regulatory alignment would not mean adopting exactly the same rules as the EU but “mutually recognised” rules and inspections.

    However, an official in Brussels countered that regulatory alignment would mean that the UK would have to implement rules from Brussels without having any influence over them.

    What is the government’s plan for ‘regulatory alignment’?
    Davis says the UK could continue to follow some rules of the EU’s single market. This would help avoid a hard border, but would also limit the UK’s ability to diverge from EU regulations.

    What does the EU think?
    Davis thinks the UK and EU can agree to meet the same aims, while achieving them in different ways. The EU believes this could see its standards on workers’ rights and the environment undercut.

    Can it even work?
    Parliament cannot bind its successors. This principle would mean a deal would never be completely secure for more than five years – putting its feasibility in doubt.

    May is expected to say in her speech that it is “now for the EU to respond” after the publication of the white paper, and to show the same flexibility as her government “not simply to fall back on to previous positions which have already been proven unworkable, but to evolve their position in kind.”

    The PM will also say that the EU’s proposals for a backstop would destabilise the economy in Northern Ireland.

    Her remarks come hours after the Confederation of British Industry said that new economic data showed that Northern Ireland was edging towards recessionary territory, with the uncertainty over Brexit partly to blame.

    Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, has expressed concern that the turmoil in the House of Commons suggests a withdrawal agreement would never be supported in Westminster, whatever the outcome of Brexit negotiations.

    On Wednesday night Varadkar said Ireland was looking to hire about 1,000 officials for customs, veterinary and export checks to cope with a no deal.

    May, who is relying on the Brexit-supporting Democratic Unionist party to maintain her majority in the House, will also use her speech to reassert her commitment to the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    “For all of us who care about our country, for all of us who want this union of nations to thrive, that duty [to achieve a deal for everyone] goes to the heart of what it means to be a United Kingdom and what it means to be a government,” she will say. “Our job is not to deal with Brexit in theory, but to make a success of it in practice for all of our people.”

  112. Smallaxe says:

    Brexit: Theresa May says it is now up to EU to prevent hard border as she visits Northern Ireland;

  113. Macart says:


    I’ve seen some epically bad politics over the years, but this from UKgov wins the prize. That’s basically throwing the peoples of RoI and N.I. under a bus, reneging on a given word to both the E.U. and GFA and then attempting to lay responsibility onto someone else.

    Dear God! If people thought the beginning of the week was the culmination of two years of epic fuckwittery, then they need to start resetting their standards.

    May has literally thrown what’s left of the UK’s tattered political reputation onto a skip.

  114. Smallaxe says:

    Good morning, Macart,

    That’s some mess she’s making, right enough.

    Charlie’s not doing much better;
    Prince Charles to tell child abuse inquiry he was ‘certainly not aware’ his bishop friend was a paedophile despite the clergyman accepting a caution for gross indecency;

  115. Ottomanboi says:

    May seems to spend more time schmoozing the Irish, north and south, than the Scots.
    The more serious ‘Scottish question’ needs to be shoved in her face. We go and your precious United Kingdom is history. A desirable outcome for us that needs tougher, more assertive initiatives from Scotland’s nationalists and nationalist leaders.
    Time we got selfish, unashamedly puting Scotland First.
    Re sectarianism, there is no orange or green on the Scottish flag.

  116. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Looks like the BritNats of Greater England going for the “Blame the EU furriners and flounce out to the WTO rules No Deal Hard Brexit” which some of us have always suspected they were going to. @Smallaxe says at 8:19 am

  117. Fred says:

    This Gary Smith appears to be a bit of a shit, yes?

  118. galamcennalath says:

    Re TMay in / on Ireland.

    She might be able to play silly buggers within her own party and with her magical fantasy plans for a future relationship, but it is now far too late to do so with the Divorce Deal. That was broadly agreed last December and needs firming up this summer.

    I think it was Barnier who said they were 80% there on exiting arrangements. Sounds like TMay wants to renege on a lot of that.

    Gordon MacIntyre-Kemp had a plan published the other day where he presented a logical medium term progression towards IndyRef2. It was a possible scenario. Events might speed things up, though, if TMay insists on adopting tactics from the Kamikaze School of Overly Robust Negotiating!

  119. Ken500 says:

    May will be gone by October. The idiocy will be gone. To be replaced with more? Labour and others, the so called ‘opposition’, could have brought them down many times. They did not even turn up to vote or abstain.

    What a shower of useless, incompetent psycho bastards. Sanctioning and starving people. Imagine May, Raab and Williamson negotiating anything. There is something wrong with these people. What an embarrassment. Appalling people. The lies they are telling is a further disgrace. They are making people sick and ill. Increasing crime and criminal behaviour.

    May cut police numbers as Home Secretary. Cut border agency numbers. The result was that the queues at Heathrow got so bad, it was chaos. People were allowed to enter unchecked. She blamed the staff she had appointed. The head resigned and called her out. Said it was her fault. Imagine the Brexit chaos at the borders.

    There is a code of conduct these people are supposed to be following. Now they are covering up their reported crime. Johnston wiki information has been changed. Misrepresented to cover up his criminal behaviour. Informing a criminal associate the name and address of someone. So the associate could threaten and beat the person up. He was reported to the Police. Then no action was taken. He was sacked by Murdoch for telling lies. Now deleted. He is writing a Telegraph column for £250,000 without authority. He was sacked by Howard (‘something of the night’) for telling lies.

    The military depending on rank can put their off spring to private school expense paid, The lower ranks were housed in inferior quarters. Some of which has been sold off. Some barracks shut and put up for sale. The military estate sold off. Unwanted premises.

  120. Capella says:

    @ Smallaxe – that was an interesting resd:

    It links to the original paper which sets out the UK Government pension and NI thieving. Heroic work by Tony Lynes in researching all this.

    The rape of the National Insurance Fund
    (a draft prepared by Tony Lynes as a basis for a National Pensioners Convention factsheet on the National Insurance Fund)


    1. The National Insurance Fund operates on a pay-as-you-go basis but has to keep a working balance which the Government Actuary recommends should not fall below two months’ benefit expenditure. The balance predicted for March 2006 is £24.5 billion above the recommended level and it is expected to rise to over £60 billion – about £48 billion above the recommended level – by 2010.

    2. The suggestion that the Fund exists only on paper and is not available for spending is unfounded. The money is invested in gilt-edged securities.

    3. The Treasury regards NI contributions as a convenient form of taxation, while benefits, including pensions, are seen as part of total public expenditure. The size of the Fund’s balance, therefore, is not taken into account in deciding whether or by how much pensions should be increased.

    4. A number of measures have been taken to prevent the Fund’s balance from rising to a level at which pressure to restore the value of benefits would be irresistible. The first of these was the reduction and eventual abolition of the Treasury supplement between 1981 and 1989, followed by the introduction of an ad hoc Treasury grant which was paid only from 1993 and 1998. Restoring the supplement at its pre-1981 level would bring an extra £11.3 billion a year into the Fund, enough to meet the gross cost of a £109 per week basic pension.

    5. The policy of compensating employers for a series of “green” taxes by reducing their NI contributions is costing the Fund about £2.4 billion a year, while the proceeds of the taxes, amounting to about £1.8 billion, are purloined by the Treasury.

    6. The extra 1% NI contributions introduced in 2003 to provide money for the National Health Service have had the effect of reducing by about £1 billion a year the amount of contributions paid into the Fund.

    7. Control of the Fund should be taken out of the hands of the Treasury and transferred to a National Insurance Commission consisting largely of representatives of contributors and pensioners, as recommended in a Catalyst Forum paper in 2003.

    Followed by more in depth analysis. Well worth a read if you have the time!

  121. galamcennalath says:

    Smallaxe says

    UK to warn public every week over ‘no-deal Brexit’: The Times;

    Hmmm. Some serious inaccuracies there from the Reuters who look like they are quoting The Times.

    ” British Prime Minister Theresa May’s Brexit plan proposes negotiating the closest possible commercial links for goods trade, but even if she can secure enough support for it at home, she still needs to win agreement from the EU.

    That means that a disorderly or no-deal Brexit, where the two sides fail to agree a new relationship, is still on the table. “

    Well not really. TMay’s plan isn’t directly related to the requirements of the Exit Deal. For that she needs to accept a permanent backstop of NI staying effectively in the single market.

    If the two sides fail of agree a new relationship, that shouldn’t effect the Exit/Divorce Treaty. To suggest it does is bollocks.

    Accompanying the Exit/Divorce Treaty will be a non binding statement of future links and trade. TMay appears to be suggesting if this is agreed (based on her magical mystery cherry picking plan) then that can replace the backstop.

    This approach is way off piste.

    I understand why and how the Tories are flapping around attempting to promote the impossible given their internal divisions, weak position, and reliance on the DUP. What I cannot understand is why the entire media, including agencies like Reuters, are going along with the charade.

  122. Smallaxe says:

    Oh my God!!! Oh my God!!! OH MY GOD!!!!!! Theresa May doesn’t know shit…

  123. @Ken500

    ` (Boris)Johnston wiki information has been changed.`

    just for general info you can check all changes made to any Wikipedia entry,

    top right of every Wiki entry is a box with `view history`,

    it lists all changes to script and who/when did them,

    `Philip Cross` is a name/person/bot that frequently rewrites the script for right wing organisations and people,

    like Boris,Ruth Davidson,Ross Thomson,Liam Fox ……..

  124. Ken500 says:

    Scotland really needs a central bank for Independence. It will take 18 months. It could be sooner? Scotland definitely does not need to lose 24 or any more Devolved powers. It needs more which was happening. The Scottish economy has for far too long been ruined by Westminster ignorant decisions, The Oil & Gas sector too high taxes when the price had fallen. 40% since Jan 2016. High prices do not help the economy.

    The £ is falling putting up prices and imports. The balance of payments deficit and the debt. Makes prices dearer because of the increase of commodity prices. The London clearing banks make a fortune exchanging £ to Euros putting up prices and costs. With fees, interests and manipulation. Illegal Brexit monetary manipulation which will increase. Affecting the world economy. Creating deficiencies. This appalling saga being carried out. Completely incomprehensible. Trying to thrash the world economy and make people poorer.

    Fracking is tax free in the rest of the UK. Fracked US gas is being imported into Grangemouth. CCS projects for coal and gas were abandoned by Westminster. Tidal Projects cancelled. Solar investment cancelled. Wind turbines banned in the rest the UK. £Billions are being wasted on Hinkley Point and HS2.

    HS2 will make journeys throughout Britain take longer. It is just a public waste with no business case and not enough passengers. It will be always subsidised. Instead of Improving rail times and services in the north of England and Scotland. They take twice as long as comparable journeys in the south. The Tories cut investment.. It would improve rail travel to rival air flight time. Leading to less need for internal flights and pollution.

    The fishing industry throwing back dead fish for years, reducing stocks. Instead of using larger nets, like Norway. Or trying to improve terms and conditions in the industry, reliant on migrant labour.

    The farming industry. Mad cow came from Alabama and cost £Billions. Over 10 years. £Billions taken from Scottish farming by Westminster in CAP payments. Scotland as part of the UK receives the lowest CAP payments in the EU. The Scottish farmers were awarded extra payments for hardship and to make up the deficit. The Tories took it illegally and gave it to wealthier farmers in the south. £Millions. Stating ‘better together’ when they did it.

  125. Hamish100 says:

    the Wright Stuff “How to Solve lawless Britain?”

    Yes I know, they really mean England and Wales run by the tories and labour still we are in it altogether.

    How poor can TV Channels get with their lack of research and understanding?
    Worse still they don’t care.

  126. Capella says:

    @ Smallaxe – that was an interesting read:

    It links to the original paper which sets out the UK Government pension and NI thieving. Heroic work by Tony Lynes in researching all this.

    The r**e of the National Insurance Fund
    (a draft prepared by Tony Lynes as a basis for a National Pensioners Convention factsheet on the National Insurance Fund)


    1. The National Insurance Fund operates on a pay-as-you-go basis but has to keep a working balance which the Government Actuary recommends should not fall below two months’ benefit expenditure. The balance predicted for March 2006 is £24.5 billion above the recommended level and it is expected to rise to over £60 billion – about £48 billion above the recommended level – by 2010.

    2. The suggestion that the Fund exists only on paper and is not available for spending is unfounded. The money is invested in gilt-edged securities.

    3. The Treasury regards NI contributions as a convenient form of taxation, while benefits, including pensions, are seen as part of total public expenditure. The size of the Fund’s balance, therefore, is not taken into account in deciding whether or by how much pensions should be increased.

    4. A number of measures have been taken to prevent the Fund’s balance from rising to a level at which pressure to restore the value of benefits would be irresistible. The first of these was the reduction and eventual abolition of the Treasury supplement between 1981 and 1989, followed by the introduction of an ad hoc Treasury grant which was paid only from 1993 and 1998. Restoring the supplement at its pre-1981 level would bring an extra £11.3 billion a year into the Fund, enough to meet the gross cost of a £109 per week basic pension.

    5. The policy of compensating employers for a series of “green” taxes by reducing their NI contributions is costing the Fund about £2.4 billion a year, while the proceeds of the taxes, amounting to about £1.8 billion, are purloined by the Treasury.

    6. The extra 1% NI contributions introduced in 2003 to provide money for the National Health Service have had the effect of reducing by about £1 billion a year the amount of contributions paid into the Fund.

    7. Control of the Fund should be taken out of the hands of the Treasury and transferred to a National Insurance Commission consisting largely of representatives of contributors and pensioners, as recommended in a Catalyst Forum paper in 2003.

    Followed by more in depth analysis. Well worth a read if you have the time!

  127. Capella says:

    @ Scot Finlayson – the “Philip Cross” persona has been covered by Craig Murray several times. For example:

    It is so sad that Wikipedia is now tainted by right wing political censorship.

  128. Abulhaq says:

    If the Brits quit the EU with no deal, which seems quite likely, what will the SNP do? Does the party have a plan? Or are we in the usual British head-in-sand thing of we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. Strategy matters. Maybe there is a secret plan, I do hope so, because we’ll need one.
    The thought of being chained to the rotting hulk Britannia should give SNP leaders, indeed all pro-indies, nightmares.

  129. Smallaxe says:

    Good morning, Capella,

    Thanks, for that link, my wife is a WASPI woman.

    Theresa May signed off five-figure bonus for chief Brexit adviser;

    Enter Dominic Raab, a veritable chip off the old Brexit block;

  130. Breeks says:

    Theresa’s Brexit idea is not going to wash.

    The Good Friday Agreement was an internationally ratified peace treaty which brought, to an extent anyway, an end to the Troubles. It was dependent upon weapon decommissioning, it was dependent upon an open border between North and South, and the demilitarisation of the Border landscape.

    For Theresa to introduce ANY border control between North and South is a material breach of the Good Friday Agreement, and just like the UK Union, once a Treaty is breached, it ceases to exist and cannot be resurrected no matter what the circumstances. The only way a breached treaty can be “unbreached” is to have it replaced with a completely new Treaty.

    To deliberately undermine the Good Friday Agreement by reintroducing any form of a Border is a flagrant breach of the Good Friday Agreement, and is furthermore a direct provocation to Irish Republicans, leading to instability and an almost inevitable return to violence in Northern Ireland.

    If Theresa May does tear up the Good Friday Agreement, any return to violence will be blamed on Westminster, I would expect International sanctions would follow, and the integrity of the UK, or what’s left of it, would be destroyed. Honest and honourable nations do not arbitrarily tear up peace Treaties.

    But to say something controversial from a Scottish perspective, I believe now is the time when we need to act.

    May’s Government, and the wider chorus of Brexiteers see Northern Ireland as the major sticking point between them and Trade Deal with the EU. Those circumstances are heightening tensions in Northern Ireland and the prospect of more violence seems inevitable. Frankly, while I lament Ireland’s tragic and terrible crises, I do envy Northern Ireland it’s place on the agenda!

    Scotland is in a very strong position to launch its own constitutional assault on the UK Government’s Brexit madness, and doing that now secures two very worthwhile objectives… First, it is a second stick in the spokes of Brexit which means the Irish Border Issues is NOT the only hurdle Theresa May needs to clear, and this can help to diffuse some of the pressure building in Northern Ireland. Second, it’s in our own interests for the Irish border problem to still be an unresolved problem when the “Scottish Problem” comes fully on stream with its Constitutional arguments of Sovereignty.

    The chances of agreement are minuscule I know, but say for arguments sake, the EU saw the risk of violence in Northern Ireland, plus riots, food rationing and societal collapse, perhaps even civil war in England, the EU could conceivably offer Westminster a “basket case” Trade Agreement to provide the UK with a humanitarian lifeline for essentials. Scotland does not want to leave it too late and risk upsetting a delicate EU rescue deal.

    Now is the time we need to force Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty onto the agenda. We need it to happen, Dublin needs it’s to happen, Brussels needs it to happen. Dawdle and wait too long, and we’ll be dealing with Westminster all on our own.

  131. Ken500 says:

    Average wage in Scotland is £23,000 (same as UK). That has fallen? It was £27K? Most people in Scotland will pay less tax. The healthcare sector wages will be higher, On a progressive tax system where the wealthier should pay more. They receive more benefit of a cohesive more prosperous happier society. Everyone benefits.

    London average wage is highest £34,000. Average wage is higher in Scotland when Oil & Gas sector production is higher.

    Morrison’s have introduced a quieter shopping hour. From 9 – 10 am on a Saturday. For autistic people their friends and family. Every little helps. It could be extended to benefit everyone.

  132. galamcennalath says:

    Tweet from Barnier ….

    ” Very happy to meet @DominicRaab this afternoon. I’m looking forward to our work over the coming weeks to 1) finalise the WA (incl. the backstop on IE/NI) & 2) prepare a political declaration on our future relationship “

    …. he significantly keeps the two issues separate, which of course they are. He puts the backstop firmily in the exit agreement part, NOT mixed up with any declaration on relationship.

    He will make a statement today.

  133. manandboy says:

    With false promises of a new, successful Britain, Theresa May’s current value is as a distraction, drawing attention away from the chaotic and distressing consequences of Brexit – like empty supermarkets and no petrol or diesel, and a broken Westminster Government, already doing nothing, which will have fled abroad to escape the public’s wrath.

    Meanwhile, the electorate remains brainwashed in a trance-like state, still believing that everything will work out just fine, and that they won’t be disturbed or upset or affected in any way.

    But its coming.

    Join the SNP here, Today.

  134. ronnie anderson says:

    That massinations of the mooth Frazer Nelson (editor of something or other ) say’s Tereeza has a backup plan, that’ll be the backup tae the backup lol , wan things for sure she has everybody’s backs up lol.

  135. galamcennalath says:

    “The UK is headed for a no deal Brexit. What will it take for the Tories to realise?”

    The underlying question still exists – would a no deal exit be the result of cockup or conspiracy?

  136. Ken500 says:

    Andrew Neil (multimillionaire – Thatcher henchman) and Laura Kuenssberg (£250,000 a year – millionaire) Taxpayers money. Politics Show ‘the Brexiteers are like Scottish psychopaths’. With references to ‘Trainspotting’ Haw haw. These two moppets. BBC standard of reporting. Shocking, They should be sacked.

    Neil an arched biased Tory is well past his sell by date. Misinformation. Scotland voted 62% Remain and support has increased. A complaint should be made. How much did they make from the Brexit polls manipulation and the ‘dark money’ contributions associations. Offshore Hedge funds. Tax free Expenses and remuneration. Unreported.

  137. Dr Jim says:

    We don’t need no immigration:

    This morning I listened with great interest to the BBC promoting the great British Brexit on (not call Kaye) where all the well informed Brexiters were falling over themselves to get on the radio to tell us how lazy or useless our young people are because they won’t go fruit picking all summer to help *the country* out so we must either make the youngsters do it or get the prisoners from the jails to do it or even our oldsters like me to do it instead of having to have all these eastern europeans to do this job that is actually hard work for minimum wage which also requires skill as well

    I thought there’s kind of a reason for that and it’s this
    THERE’S NO CAREER IN FRUIT PICKING you stupid morons, you don’t get a degree you don’t get a trade certificate you only work for a few months of the year and what the F…K did young people go to school or University for and what did we as a society invest hundreds of thousands of pounds in our young people for so they can end up as part time fruit pickers

    I’m old enough to remember when *Britain* needed workers the first time round *the windrush generation* where all the black folks came from Jamaica and places like that to do all the jobs we’re talking about right now
    But here’s the problem with that the Brexit folk don’t want them any more because many of them worked hard brought their families up here and we call them Doctor or nurse now
    but under the cover of darkeness *Britain* is trying to throw these people out now but pretending it’s too much immigration and not the real reason that is they don’t want anymore black people in their *country*

    The Brexiter lot got themselves conned by the Tory idiots who told the people that Europeans are bad as well but what they didn’t tell their army of haters is the Tories only want them out because they have to pay them a living wage and protections under EU law which they didn’t have to do with the first wave of Windrush Jamaican folks, we got them for buttons at first

    Very soon the fruit picking problem will be solved by the Brexit nut jobs when they start bringing in a new generation of poverty stricken migrant workers from the poorest places the British Nationalists can find and paying them buttons while promising streets paved with gold just like they did with the Windrush generation except this time there’ll be no EU laws workers rights to worry about so *Britain* can once again do what the hell it likes without having to worry about dopey things like health and safety or well anything really

    So all I can say to all the Brexiters who thought they were going to end the horrible nasty sight of furriners on the streets of Britain DUH! you morons, conned again

    The BBC in their program this morning really forgot one very important point in all of their *let’s all pick fruit for Britain* phone in, How about asking the guys (farmers) who grow the stuff what workers they’d prefer, I bet I know the answer to that one

    The experienced hard F…..g workers they’ve already got

  138. ahundredthidiot says:

    Barnier is playing the game here.

    It is not in the EU’s interest to do any sort of deal with the UK, it is in their interest to SEEM to be doing a deal with the UK, but the very lifeblood at the heart of the idea that is the EU is at stake here.

    They would sooner take the loss of the UK as an undesirable, but acceptable ‘hit’ in order to survive.

    No quarter will be given.

    Smiles maybe, soundbites, but no quarter.

  139. Brian Powell says:

    I would guess the purpose of the information bundles is so that the public will blame the EU for their woes and divert furious anger from the Westminster Government.

    However the EU has no reason to give a shit about that, it will be continuing while Britain flounders and flaps.

  140. ahundredthidiot says:

    Was listening (while trying to eat breakfast) the other day at work to a Brexiteer rant off about how brilliant everything is going to be once we release the shackles of the EU.

    Ten minutes later he was in my office applying for his paternity leave. Not that I needed reminded with said Policy in front of me, but he thought it pertinent to stress to me that he was entitled to his two weeks off.

    I bit my tongue because I am not so sure a more ‘competitive’ or ‘efficient’ UK will allow that sort of thing to remain in place.

  141. Dr Jim says:

    The nature of the *British* revealed again as they threaten to starve the Republic of Ireland back to the potato famine if Ireland doesn’t do what the *British* tell them

    Listen Brexiters you can’t win this, you’re going to lose and lose bad and you can’t bomb your way out of it, the EU is bigger and more powerful than Britain and won’t be pushed around

    They’re pushing back and they’ll win……Than God!

  142. starlaw says:

    Britain now acting true to form, this time however they have absolutely no clout.
    Last border in N Ireland was to keep the republicans out. This border will be to keep N Ireland out.
    The people of N Ireland will decide and will surely take the road which will serve them best … South.

  143. Robert Peffers says:

    @Chick McGregor says: 20 July, 2018 at 12:23 am:

    ” … Maybe it is like Italy where I read once many years ago, that there were 3 admirals for every ship in the Italian navy.”

    Actually, Chick, before I retired from The MOD, (as an Industrial Civil Servant), there really were more admirals than capital warships in The Royal Navy.

  144. Smallaxe says:

    Sobering analysis from across the Atlantic….Theresa May’s Brexit speech may break the Northern Ireland peace process – The Washington Post;

    That’s all for now, Wingers. Have a peaceful and prosperous day.

  145. mike cassidy says:


    That jobcentre posting was a serious dose of reality.

    One person. One jobcentre.

    We can all be politicos on here with our insights and links.

    But its seriously fucked up for the people on the frontline.

  146. galamcennalath says:

    Smallaxe says

    Sobering analysis from across the Atlantic


    A rhetorical question … why does the foreign media completely understand what’s going on in the UK and can present reality clearly and accurately, yet the UK media appear to not have a clue and present a fantasy pro Tory-Brexit version without challenge?

  147. Dan Huil says:

    It will be a No Deal. Britnats will dare the RoI to put up border controls; the RoI and EU will do it because they will have no alternative. The EU will help the RoI ride out the financial hit.

    Desperate Britnats will do their utmost to get people in the north of Ireland to blame the RoI and the EU; it will backfire. Most people in the north of Ireland will allocate blame to the place which deserves it: Westminster.

    The cause of a united Ireland will be advanced.

  148. Ken500 says:

    Average wages in the UK has fallen over last ten years. 1% a year. It has increased since 2014 but not up to 2008 levels. It has fallen more in the public sector than private, although unemployment has fallen. More people are working for an average less money. Less growth.

  149. Smallaxe says:

    mike cassidy,

    Hi, Mike. I wish I could find some good news for a change but sadly we really are dealing with psychopaths who are filling their pockets while the poor starve and are denied benefits which they are entitled to. To quote the song,”We Got To Get Out Of This Place”.

    Have a good day, my friend.

  150. Dr Jim says:

    The EU have democratic solutions to disagreements within the member states they negotiate with each country and agree on a decision no matter whether the country is large or small irrespective of population
    In the United Kingdom England negotiates with itself and the rest of member states (Scotland Wales Northern Ireland) can go and take a flying you know what

    This is NOT a Union this is a dictatorship

    England cannot survive the subsidy of Wales and Northern Ireland without the assets of Scotland
    Not my words, the words of Jacob Rees Mogg

  151. stu mac says:

    @yesindyref2 says:
    20 July, 2018 at 12:47 am

    But the counter claim in the National that up to £33,000 nobosy pays more tax according to SPICe is also wrong, that’s more tax than last year becaue of the personal allowance, NOT more than the rUK. Counter-spin is just as bad as spin, and WE don’t need it. The truth shall set us free.

    I don’t think it’s counter-spin. I just think it’s them having a small staff and they’re prone to mistakes. Noticed a few times they just pick stuff up and repeat it and don’t seem to check properly. Don’t think it’s deliberate.

    Course, they should take more care – as you suggest it could be used against Indy. But they do have a problem with having a small staff. Often wondered whether I should suggest to them that they get volunteers (perhaps offered freebies like they sometimes give away) to receive early text – via email, web -and check/proof them. I realise they just can’t trust anyone to do this but there must be a way to make it feasible.

  152. Chick McGregor says:

    Thanks Bob, interesting, although I’m clueless on what a ‘capital’ ship means or indeed if the article I read years ago re the Italian navy was referring to the same thing.

  153. mike cassidy says:

    Well, May has called the EU’s bluff.

    If it is a bluff!

  154. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Dr Jim 1044….

    That’s a good rant Dr Jim. Well on the nose.

    Back in the day berry picking was (weather permitting) a 6 week season.

    Scotland was so poor, that in the one month of the year when the weather might be expected to be nice and other countries would celebrate with national festivities… Scotland turned out its children, its mill workers and its home grown itinerant workers – The Travellers – to pick crops for pennies. No security, no minimum wage, no accommodation – round Blairgowrie they literally slept under hedgerows. A busman’s holiday for the mill workers. School uniform money for the bairns.

    Blairgowrie – with a population of under 10,000 – at one point had the highest rate of pubs per head of population (for all uk) to cater for the influx. About 10 years ago, there were still 27 on the go.

    And the town would be jumping during the season, the Glasgow Mill workers, the Dundee Mill workers and the Traivlers – took tae the drink, then took tae the Wellmeadow in the evening, and then (one way or another) often took tae each other.

    One elderly couple of spinster sisters, very respectable, used to book their holiday every year, and stay in the hotel overlooking the Wellmeadow. When the hotel moved them to a room at the back, they were most affronted and demanded their ‘room with a view’. They found the antics in the Wellmeadow terribly exciting.

    Extra Polis were drafted in during the season. That doesn’t happen now – the furriners are often young students, looking to save for when they get home – they don’t create the same amount of disorderly conduct in any way, shape or form compared to what was.

    And nearly all the Scottish adults (laterly – in the ’80’s) were on the bru. When the tax man came round, The farmer filled up the book with the name, John Smith, repeated over and over, for all his fruit pickers that day. Indirect subsidies for the farmer, but don’t call them scroungers or subsidy junkies.

    Each farmer, considered it a badge of honour to be the hardest on their workers. I saw one farm, near Blairgowrie, owned by a very large Supermarket. They did actually have accommodation for their workers, a concrete byre, with no running water (never mind hot or cold), no toilets or showers, no heating and no windows, and certainly nothing as advanced as a kitchen.

    So, now, with the advent of polytunnels – its a 5 month season. Well done to the farmers for building up a multi million pound export industry – and I do mean that, I’m not being sarcastic.

    Tayside and Angus, takes in about 25, 000 eastern european workers for the berries. They get paid minimum wage, or better if they can (and many do) pick more on the piece rate.

    One farmers best picker managed to save £7,000 for going home to Rumania, where it was to pay for her family and education. At that time (2 years ago) she would get x7 Rumanian currency for her £.

    In the 5 months she was here, she shared a caravan with 3 others on the farm, each paid the farmer £40 per week. Each bought their clothes, food, groceries from Perth, and often, each saves up a bit and buys something like an iPhone, or car, or bigger, more expensive item they can’t get at home.

    That farm, had over 100 caravans, each with 4 tenants. They get about 5 years of life out of each caravan.

    In turn, the bigger farms, need to employ staff, to take care of the caravan site side of things. More jobs created.

    About 10% stay on full time, at least for a couple of years. 2,500 people spread out over Tayside and Angus – drop in the ocean.

    But hey, the farmer won’t miss them really, the local shops won’t see a drop in takings really, the caravan industry won’t see a booming industry take any kind of hit really.

    And we can alway get the prisoners tae do it. Perth Prisons (one of the main ones in Scotland) houses up to 800 prisoners, medium to high security. Good luck with that one folks, and if you live near a berry farm, best start locking your doors.

    So all in all, these furriners, coming over here, ‘stealing’ our jobs – no they haven’t, they’ve created a 5 month industry out of a hit or miss 6 week one, staffed up by school kids.
    The furriners coming over here, causing a crime wave – no they don’t, they’ve actually reduced a Policing issue.

    And won’t farm labouring be such a lot of fun with the removal of H and S and minimum wages and working time directives. ‘Cause you know Farmers, such a good track record on treating their workers decent when its all left up tae them.

    But hey, Brexit, taking back control. Jam anyone?

  155. jfngw says:


    There are two variables to take in when comparing the tax rates, what they paid in Scotland last year (this is the £33k threshold), and what they pay compared to the rUK this year (this £26k threshold), my understanding anyway.

    Both are open to spin by political parties and it seems to have led to confusion to some. There are plenty of tables out there explaining this so it’s hard understand why some get it wrong, except laziness to look it up properly.

    Not helped by those using £24k to muddy the waters, when they pay the 21p rate, not pay more tax.

  156. Thepnr says:

    Back in 2013 the Daily Fail reported a story about the Royal Navy having more ships than Admirals, not just Admirals though.

    Royal Navy’s 260 captains for just 19 warships:

    Defence cuts see 15 times as many commanding officers as vessels

    There are now 40 admirals and 260 captains in the Royal Navy

    However, as a result of defence cuts, there are only 19 active warships

    Strong and stable Tory government? Hahahahaha.

  157. yesindyref2 says:

    @stu mac
    You’re absolutely right, The National makes do with a small staff, and really needs more people to buy it, and more people to subscribe to it. It’s the only mainstream media we have, and we don’t support it well enough. And it runs good controversial articles, like Eddie Bone of the English parliament campaign, who does actually seem a bit xenophobic, including about Scots as English MPs – as well as being anti-EU.

    Yes, they could use trusted volunteers who’d have to totally respect embargoes on articles until they’re published. Send out an article to maybe 3 or 6, hope 1 has the time to send back corrections.

  158. Robert Peffers says:

    Is this woman even sane?

    Are we supposed to accept this utter drivel? The woman contradicts herself in the same paragraph.

    ” … For all of us who care about our country, for all of us who want this union of nations to thrive, that duty [to achieve a deal for everyone] goes to the heart of what it means to be a United Kingdom.”

    Let’s just look at that in, (cough!), plain standard English.

    “for all of us who care about our country”

    There are four countries in the United Kingdom – which one of them is Theresa’s, “Country”? The answer is – She was born on 1 October 1956 in Eastbourne, Sussex. England is her country.

    ” … for all of us who want this union of nations to thrive,”

    What is this, “Union of Nations”, she speaks about?

    The, “Union”, is not a union of nations, although the United Kingdom does contain four nations, the last time I looked it was still legally titled, “The United Kingdom“, and that is undoubtedly a union of only two kingdoms. It says so in the Treaty of Union.

    ” … that duty [to achieve a deal for everyone] goes to the heart of what it means to be a United Kingdom.

    Well no it does NOT – for what it actually means to be a United Kingdom is being a united kingdom and, according to the Treaty of Union that formed, “The United Kingdom”, it plainly is, according to the only two signatory kingdoms with their signatures, and their royal seals attached upon the actual document is a union of ONLY the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England and legally, (in order to be eligible to unite their individual independent sovereignty), must be equally sovereign – The United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of equally of the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Kingdom of England. The reason that the Kingdom of Ireland and the Principality of Wales were not required to sign the Treaty of Union was they came into the union as parts of the Kingdom of England that had annexed them when all three were still sovereign states and all three under the rule of Law of, “Divine Right of Kings”, that the three country Kingdom of England had changed in 1688 long before they signed the Treaty of Union with the Kingdom of Scotland.

    So that whole paragraph is total gobbledegook and each bit of it contradicts every other bit of it.

    Theresa, like most other Englanders, assume that the terms. “nation”, “country”, “kingdom” and, “Britain”, all mean exactly the same thing. They don’t – and especially not legally.

    Mind you they only believe this when it suits their overwhelming feelings of English/British/Unionist nationalism as they look down their oversized long noses at the Scots, Welsh and (all), Irish residents in their English subjugated dominions.

  159. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, that’s the thing. The MOD used the figure of £24,000 which was just plain wrong. Some of those correctly pointing out that was wrong, then unfortunately muddied the waters after that by talking about the £33,000 figure when the directly comparable figure to the rUK level of tax is £26,000.

    Easy to do all the same, it took me more than 3 attempts to get it right including typos, so I too muddied the fing waters. On UKDJ for instance, which actually used the correct £26,000 figure 🙁

    Though it too states it wrongly:

    Since April in Scotland, anyone earning more than around £26,000 in Scotland has paid more income tax. The change meant around 70% of personnel based in Scotland were facing higher tax bills.

    No they haven’t, and no they’re not, only compared to those based in the rUK. Up to £33,000 they actually pay the same as last year or less.

  160. mike cassidy says:

    For those who need a daily dose of irony.

    I give you the thoughts of Chairman Gary Smith, head of BBC news and current affairs.

    Compare and contrast.

  161. Clapper57 says:

    @ Dr Jim @ 10.44am

    Re your post good points. My own theory is that the people who are unemployed and who stated that “they’re taking our jobs” will be , post Brexit, told by the Tories that they must do this work or have their benefits suspended….the Tories will know that the Gammon QT audience pro Brexiteer types will agree with this as a solution.

    Post Brexit diminished human rights and workers rights will leave us with a Tory dictatorship endorsed by the Gammons.

    Tories will once again deploy Tory EVEL strategy while poor people will once again be conned into submission. The narrative will be one of a Benefits ‘Britain’ where the rage will be directed at those people on benefits who we are told ‘Do not want to work’ thus all the pressure and attention will be on them and deflected from the real villains who avoid paying appropriate tax via money misappropriated into offshore accounts ….and whom the Tory government willfully fails to collect appropriate tax from as per profits these individuals and companies have gained in the good old UKOK…..and all this while the Tories continue to receive dubious ‘donations’ to uphold their own regime.

    Is this the Better Together ‘Utopia’ some people in Scotland voted for ? Do some of these same people truly believe that salvation, post Brexit, lies in a Labour government whose leadership , like May, leads a splintered party and whose only future is currently a party in constant disharmony ?

    I wonder if any other country in the world would choose this as a credible option as opposed to an option to escape the madness of a disunited country under a right wing dictatorship endorsed by bigots and simpletons. Hmm ?

  162. Thepnr says:

    Barnier is due to give a press conference that should have started 10 minutes ago so could start anytime soon.

    “Meetings with ministers from the 27 member states were expected to cover the UK’s white paper on its position on the future EU-UK relationship, and issues related to the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.”

    You can watch it live here:

  163. Thepnr says:

    It’s started.

  164. Thepnr says:

    Barnier is speaking in French, there is a link below the video to have a translation given in English.

  165. Doug_Bryce says:

    Good french practice.

    Barnier has basically sh@t all over Mays proposal

    1) 4 freedoms are indivisible
    2) UK collecting tarrifs in overly complex bureaucracy
    3) UK will need to observe common rule book if it wants free movement of goods.

    Who knew ?

  166. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Daisy @ 12.46pm

    Although I wasn’t aware that supermarkets typically owned farms – I thought they purchased goods from the farmers or manufacturers who owned the land – it’s good that you mentioned them, as it’s important to emphasize the role of the increasing power held by the tiny number of supermarket giants in crushing the freedom farmers had to bargain, and turning what used to be a natural cultural phenomenon into a fast-moving industry (as you yourself noted), dependent on a larger amount of workers on less pay, with minimal flexibility.

  167. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ottomanboi says: 20 July, 2018 at 8:39 am:

    ” … A desirable outcome for us that needs tougher, more assertive initiatives from Scotland’s nationalists and nationalist leaders.”

    So, Ottomanboi, in your humble opinion, it is all the fault of, ( and I directly quote you), “Scotland’s nationalists and nationalist leaders”

    From which statement by you we must assume, (as you point your finger at them/us), it is all the fault of the BAAAAAD! SNP Government and the even BAAAAAAADer! Scottish Nationalists.

    I assume, of course, you do know the importance of first person and second person use in English Grammar.

  168. Liz g says:

    Clapper 57 @1.25
    I think,your theory is correct,they imagine that the poor,working-class and unemployed will be filling the gaps in the migrant job market.
    Our kid’s will be filling their army or stuck on this Island trying to scrape a living!
    University and foreign travel will be once again only for their kid’s,except for the few of our bright ones they scoop up to use.
    It seems to be generally accepted that they want to turn back the clock,but one thing about the past and the one thing you don’t mention … almost no one ever does!!!
    When they get control of their ” own laws ” the very same people who would put our kid in the field’s,are the very same people who would bring back Capital Punishment.
    And hasn’t the word Treason come back into fashion lately!
    The Hang em and flogg em brigade are getting control in Westminster…. and if anyone thinks they wouldn’t or couldn’t do it,then they haven’t been paying attention.
    This is an EU protection that is never considered,a protection that’s for members only.The EU will do trade deals with countries who have Capital Punishment the USA being one.
    Westminster won’t be forbidden from Killing it’s subjects after Brexit,we must leave and Forbid Holyrood Constitutionally from ever Killing its citizens….

  169. Daisy Walker says:

    @ Reluctant Nationalist

    Not sure if supermarkets (plural) do own farms. Only aware of one… 4 letters, begins with C, ends in P and has 2o’s in the middle.

    If we go back to the ‘good old days’ with locals picking the berries, are the farmers going to pay them enough to pay their rent. They won’t be able to move into the caravans for £40 p/week. Although at least with the polytunnels they will at least be ‘almost’ guaranteed a full days work, and decent pickings, unlike days of yore.

    Nothing about Brexit is good. Its all bad and getting badder.

  170. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Ah, Co-op, of course. Sorry.

    The farms used to rely on the Seasonal Agricultural Worker Scheme for a lot of their labour before we were in the EU (and during, I believe), where temporary residence permits were issued to foreign workers. Is there a reason why this couldn’t be resurrected?

    I do sympathise with you about the ‘good old days’. My mother recalls picking stawberries in the fields on her holidays as a schoolkid, and did not like it one bit.

  171. Robert Peffers says:

    @Abulhaq says: 20 July, 2018 at 10:05 am:

    ” … The thought of being chained to the rotting hulk Britannia should give SNP leaders, indeed all pro-indies, nightmares/”

    I see the false-Flag nationalists are out in numbers today.

    Another one here with the – It’s all the SNP/SG’s fault.

    Let’s ask them the obvious question:-

    O.K., Abulhaq, If the SNP/SG leaders are not the answer and apparently, according to you, neither are, “indeed all pro-indies”

    You is it you recommend we switch to voting for? Let’s see There’s Ruth Davidson and her, “Not the Tory Party”. lot.
    There’s Richard Leonard leader of the London Labour Scottish Accountancy Unit who keeps asking the FM what she is going to do about things not under the remit of the Holyrood government of Scotland and that wee fellow that comes from the village I live it but I can never remember his name.

    Oh! Wait! Isn’t there a far-left lot that have not managed to get any members elected to either Holyrood or to Westminster but who keep telling anyone daft enough to listen that everyone but them are wrong.

    So which is it you want we pro-Indy folks to swap our support to so that we can get what the SNP/SG & Greens cannot achieve?

  172. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Daisy Walker (12.46) –

    Very interesting stuff, cheers.

    If the Brexiteers are so keen on going back to ‘the good old days’ they should be prepared to pick the stuff themselves.

  173. Robert Peffers says:

    @galamcennalath says: 20 July, 2018 at 11:49 am:

    ” … A rhetorical question … why does the foreign media completely understand what’s going on in the UK and can present reality clearly and accurately, yet the UK media appear to not have a clue and present a fantasy pro Tory-Brexit version without challenge?”

    Oh! That’s an easy one to answer, galamcennalath.

    The answer is simply because the United Kingdom Media, (with very few exceptions), isn’t the media of the people of the United Kingdom – it is the propaganda wing of the Westminster Establishment who most certainly do not represent the people of the United Kingdom but are owned and paid for by either the Westminster Establishment or their wealthy, non-dom, financial backers that Westminster really serves.

  174. Alba46 says:

    Isn’t it strange that when the MSM makes reference to RT it always The Kremlin backed / funded television station.

    When the same MSM refer to the BBC its never the Westminster backed / funded broadcaster.

    Funny that.

    When referring to the BBC we wingers should always refer to BBC as westminster funded / backed BBC.

  175. manandboy says:

    This is as much a part of the Tory-UDA-DUP Alliance as the signing of the Tory/DUP £1.5 billion Agreement at 10 Downing Street.

    BTW, the staunchly defended ‘Tradition’ of lighting bonfires in NI has undergone a remarkable transition in recent years. Gone are the 20 ft high piles of flammable rubbish, to be replaced by massive 60 – 100 ft towers of wooden pallets.

    Ps. It is inconceivable that Dee Stitt, UDA leader, does not advise Arlene Foster, the DUP Leader, about what should happen to the £1.5 billion bribe paid to the DUP for its support in Westminster.

  176. jfngw says:

    There is one thing about most unionist I can spot, it is they hate Scotland and the idea of Scotland as a country. There we have another piece by branch manager Ruth Davidson telling us how shite Scotland is and it could never really stand on its own feet without her boss in charge, it doesn’t say this directly it is the underlying message though.

    A vote for the Tories, Labour or the LibDems is a vote for subservience in perpetuity. If that’s what you want then go ahead, be a taker of laws not the maker. Jacob Rees-Mogg doesn’t want to be in a vassal state but he is quite happy to treat Scotland as one.

  177. Robert Peffers says:

    @Chick McGregor says: 20 July, 2018 at 12:24 pm:

    “Thanks Bob, interesting, although I’m clueless on what a ‘capital’ ship means …”

    Capital Ships are the fighting ships, Cruisers, Destroyers, Frigates, Carriers. As opposed to support vessels like tugs, supply ships, refullers, Boom Defence vessels.

    Thing is there are ranks within rank of Admiral. e.g.

    “Royal Navy officers holding the ranks of rear admiral, vice admiral and admiral of the fleet are sometimes considered generically to be admirals. The rank of admiral is currently the highest rank to which an officer in the Royal Navy can be promoted, admiral of the fleet being in abeyance.”

    The point being that there will be more Admirals sailing desks than there are sailing capital ships. Just as a matter of interest post WWII Rosyth Dockyard had a lot of work refitting and converting the old Colonial Class and City Class Cruisers. Many of which were subsequently sold off to navies around the World.

    Now part of that refit was to create in the after end of the ships really sumptuous Admiral’s Quarters in addition to the, almost as sumptuous, Ship’s Captain’s Quarters. The reason for this was not at first too clear to we. “Dockyard Maties”, but we soon worked out the strategy.

    The clue was the foredeck that had the large 6″ or 6.5″ multi-gun turrets fitted. They were getting these ships ready for their new jobs, (and not just for the Royal Navy).

    The ships were being set up to this luxury level to be used for diplomatic duties. The royals, government officials or diplomats would by using the Admiral and Captains quarters and that foredeck could have canvas canopies fitted as an entertainment/dancing area. They were still fighting ships but were also floating embassies.

    I think most ended in foreign hands when Westminster realised the days of the British Empire were finished.

  178. Bobp says:

    Alba46 .3.45pm. I like that phrase , the westminster funded bbc.

  179. yesindyref2 says:

    I see the Tories are complaining about a promotional video encouraging people to move to Scotland. But as we know, the Tories hate immigration, even from England and the rest of the UK.

    Alistair Darling got it right, the Tories really are “blood and soil” nationalists.

  180. Meg merrilees says:

    Can they get the army in to pick the strawberries and raspberries?

    It might save some businesses from going to the wall?

    Are some of these not the very farmers who had big ‘Vote NO’ and ‘Better Together’ signs in their fields- the very people who have allowed the Tory, Kirsten Hair to be their MP, the one who didn’t vote in the referendum but is certainly voting against her constituents interests now and she of farming stock too!

    If it wasn’t so tragic and a case of livelihoods going to the wall I’d say you reap what you sow but surely this situation can be rescued – or are the movers and shakers on holiday…

    Just maybe they want our fruit growers to fail so that the ones further south can sell all their produce- or are they having problems too?

    What about community payback labour?

  181. Bobp says:

    Clapper57. 1.25pm. ‘Bigots and simpletons, you got that right. Frightening that these people have a vote.

  182. jfngw says:


    I see UKIP has joined in, SNP members are a disease. Just one small step for them, then we are vermin. UKIP the fascist party of the UK (England really, they are dead in the water in Scotland).

    Soon we will see the back of David Coburn, gone and instantly forgotten. All for the best really, Scotland will be a better place without him.

  183. Gary45% says:

    Ian Brotherhood@3.01
    “Brexiteers going back to the good old days”
    Not sure if I posted this a while back? if so ignore it.
    A nice wee marketing exercise would be to manufacture rose tinted glasses and sepia glazing for all the nostalgic wukfits.

    I heard a guy on James Obrien on LBC (wireless) this morning, it sounded like “the end of days” what he was describing, but I reckon he was spot on, depressing stuff indeed.

    I had a discussion with a lady regarding the SG and Indy a few months back, she made a comment regarding her husbands great NHS health care, and the benefits of free bus use, I said to her it was thanks to the SNP government that are bending over backwards providing the services under increasing budget cuts from Westminster, I got the usual unionist diatribe from her, ie Never vote for them/Sturjin etc. I couldn’t understand the mentality until today, they are just back from Benidorm where the diddy squad have their 12th July marches in the sun, when it goes tits up for her and other half I will hold no sympathy for them or any of their ilk.

  184. How easy you all seem to forget the e.u. Leaders talking out against Scottish independense and saying we would have to apply to get back in and yous want to stay with that lot ???wont it,be great we will get rid of 1master and then have 27other masters independense I don’t think ???

  185. galamcennalath says:

    “As expected, Michel Barnier never said “no” outright and he praised the white paper for providing a basis for continued discussions toward a withdrawal treaty. But he also insisted that the future relationship would be defined by EU red lines that are clearly incompatible with May’s proposal.”

    No surprise there, then. So, how long before anyone in London actually calls TMay out for sitting on a heap of shite and insisting it smells of English roses?

  186. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, I think Coburn might have been good for the Tories.

    @Blair Paterson

  187. Bobp says:

    Dr jim 11.04am. With irish ferry links now from cork to santander and rosslare to cherbourg, the brit nats wont be starving ireland out anytime soon.

  188. Stravaiger says:

    @ Blair Paterson

    Independense? Is that where were free from dense people? I can see why you’d be against that.

  189. remo says:

    Sorry if this is a bit off topic.I put this up on a previous post but I don’t think anybody is going back to read it so I will try again here.

    Dr Jim says:
    18 July, 2018 at 8:50 am
    We must not allow anything that could lead to the Nationalists tearing Scotland out of the United Kingdom or we will find ourselves without the assets the UK needs to survive

    Jacob Rees Mogg

    Please, please tell me the source of this comment. I would love to share it with a No voter pal and this is the kind of thing which might help to remove the blinkers for any future vote.

  190. Dr Jim says:

    *It’s becoming necessary to destroy Vietnam in order to save it*

    I just read that phrase used by an American major during the Vietnam war and now apparently being used by Tories in relation to Scotland

    They can’t bomb us but we all know what they can and will do to remove the SNP from governance and to crush any hope of self determination in Scotland if we don’t stop them now

  191. Clapper57 says:

    @ Stravaiger says:
    20 July, 2018 at 5:15 pm
    @ Blair Paterson

    “Independense? Is that where were free from dense people? I can see why you’d be against that”.


    I laughed out loud at your comment Stravaiger ….still laughing as I type….my God you’re quick, I never even noticed that Lol.

  192. Hamish100 says:

    Blair Paterson your master is Westminster England. The 27 from the EU can’t take us to war like your namesake Blair, nor set off nuclear weapons imposed on Scotland. Why because each nation has certain rights. At the moment we have none.

  193. Clapper57 says:

    @ Bobp says @ 4:39pm
    20 July, 2018

    “Frightening that these people have a vote”.

    Hmm Bobp..even more frightening to think that they are people !!

    ps. Have we been invaded by the Bodysnatchers alt right army from some planet FARage FARage away !….I’ve seen some of their PODcasts via Twitter….understand they want us to believe ‘alien’ definitely ONLY means ‘foreign’ as in nudge nudge wink wink taking our jobs etc etc….well the games up ET !!! Lol

  194. jfngw says:

    I hear Ruth Davidson has written something about how to balance Scotland’s books. Apparently it involves some sort of financing from secret donations, but she is not willing to expand on how this money will be obtained or who the donors are.

  195. Robert Peffers says:

    @Alba46 says: 20 July, 2018 at 3:45 pm:

    ” … When referring to the BBC we wingers should always refer to BBC as westminster funded / backed BBC.”

    You are correct, Alba46, I’ve done that for years. I also adopt a few other wee Westminster Establishment trick that Westminster has used for hundreds of years to brainwash what they regard as their dominions.

    For example I noticed they always use the initial letters for the union instead of typing, “United Kingdom”, and they talk about, “The Country”, when they mean the United Kingdom. So I mostly reverse that and use the full names and when they say, “The Country”, and mean the United Kingdom I interrupt and say, “You are English so that’ll be England you are talking about? What are the results/figures, (or whatever they were talking about), for Scotland?

    Not only does that put them on the wrong foot but it insidiously makes them, and anyone listening realise, often subconsciously, just what the United Kingdom really is.

    If we Indy supporters insist on making them use the correct terms it is that much harder for them to claim that the Westminster Parliament has overall sovereignty for legally Westminster isn’t sovereign under Scots law and they can only act as if it has if a majority of the people of Scotland let them. (and there I used another wee brainwashing term, I said, “The People of Scotland”, and not, “The Scots”.

    This, of course, is the whole brainwashing mantra. I highlighted a real big dose of it upthread where Theresa used several wrong terms in a public statement yet I’d bet I was probably alone it highlighting it as a load of cobblers. Cameron used to do the same and often used several wrong terms within a single sentence.

  196. schrodingers cat says:

    galamcennalath says:
    Michel Barnier is being very diplomatic, he knows how shaky westminster is at the mo, but the uk media will have to face up to the reality before long
    how long before anyone in London actually calls TMay out for sitting on a heap of shite and insisting it smells of English roses?


    how long depends now on the eu, but i imagine it will be the tory rebels who will be the first to make a move. there never was a solution to the NI border and there still isnt, the only real solution for these brexiteers is no deal.

    ironic really, since it was they who won the euref telling everyone that “of course we will get a deal”

  197. galamcennalath says:

    schrodingers cat says:

    ironic really, since it was they who won the euref telling everyone that “of course we will get a deal”

    Indeed. They told a pack of lies to win IndyRef1 but I have to be honest and say the lies told to a win in EURef were even more barefaced!

    At least there was a certain plausibility to the Scottish lies, they could have delivered what they promised, even if the less gullible among us guessed it was all lies and deceit.

    However, the claims made for the ‘land of milk and honey’ Brexit UK was never going to happen. In reality it will be a land of bovine growth hormone laced milk and GM pollen polluted honey. Comprehensive trade deals were already in the post, trillions of savings from EU ‘overheads’ could be redirected to services, and Britannia would rules the waves afresh as the Empire rallied to serve their masters – in there dreams.

    And to top that, it has been firmly proven dirty dark money bought votes and probably the win.

    The UK will never recover from this fiasco. Exceptionalism and entitlement have finally proven to be fatal afflictions.

  198. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ remo

    I think Dr Jim is paraphrasing Mogg…somewhat, but the gist is almost the same.

    Mogg said in 2014 that the remainder of the UK would become a “small, shrunken, shrivelled place” and “London Plus” if Scotland voted for independence. And how it was vey, vey unfair, but England must bend over and think of the Queen.

    From here:

  199. schrodingers cat says:

    In reality it will be a land of bovine growth hormone laced milk and GM pollen polluted honey.
    thats if we’re lucky.

    for many of us, this has been a long slog from 2011 onwards.

    I can almost smell scotland’s free air. i’m glad that as we come down to the wire that it is Nicola who is in charge, she is a very shrewd cookie.

  200. Tinto Chiel says:

    “So I mostly reverse that and use the full names and when they say, “The Country”, and mean the United Kingdom I interrupt and say, “You are English so that’ll be England you are talking about? What are the results/figures, (or whatever they were talking about), for Scotland?”

    Quite agree, Robert Peffers, but I have been dismayed to hear both Ian Blackford and Tommy Sheppard (in otherwise blisteringly good speeches) use the term “The Country” in the HoC when they meant the United Kingdom.

    It jars somewhat.

    My country (and their country) is Scotland.

  201. Sinky says:

    More sensational revelations by Channel Four tonight on Aaron Banks and Leave campaign. Chanel Four has a small fraction of BBCs resources so why has BBC ignored this and the rest of the dirty money revealed in The Guardian etc or by The Ferret in Scotland

  202. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    * @ remo, that should be 2013, not 2014. Anyway, plenty there to make your pal’s blood boil.

  203. starlaw says:

    boph 5.07

  204. starlaw says:

    Irish Ferrys A new ferry route will be established from Dublin with ferrys carrying 1000 lorries, seen a new report on this some months ago.

  205. Breeks says:


    I’m getting a bad feeling that Westminster might be “indifferent” about Northern Ireland sliding back into violence because it provides May with leverage and muck to throw at Europe when she blames the unrest upon Europe’s intransigence.

    I hope that is a figment of my own paranoia rather than the truth, but May simply has nothing to bargain with, and might already be setting up the EU as scapegoat and “enemy” of the people.

    Be careful Ireland. These are critical times as Westminster implodes.
    Be careful Scotland. We represent a much bigger threat to the integrity of the “United” Kingdom, and if we’re not careful, we will be engaged by an injured Westminster on all-out wounded beast mode.

    For the sake of peace in Ireland, a constitutional earthquake from Berwick to Gretna would surely cripple the Westminster Government, contain and confine Brexit to those who actually voted for it, make Scottish Independence inevitable, promote the likelihood of a united Ireland, or at least change the stalemate, a protect both the Irish and Scottish people from the calamity of Brexit.

  206. One_Scot says:

    Honestly, I would be absolutely gobsmacked and raging if any celebrity BritNat had the cheek to try and tell us we are better together come #ScotRef.

  207. Legerwood says:

    Breeks @ 7.30pm

    I don’t think you are being paranoid. Westminster has not done anything to get Stormont up and running again nor anything to nip in the bud the renewed outbreak of violence which, in truth, never totally went away.

    CH4 news did a report from NI last night. Things definitely going backwards.

  208. Thepnr says:


    This is one Irish view of “The nightmare scenario”.

  209. Phil says:

    If I have it right Referendum1707 says @ 19 July, 2018 at 4:23 pm that it may soon be time to leave Scotland because of lack of calling Indyref2.

    First – we will need all the support we can get – emigration can wait until the success or failure of our Indyref project.

    Second – this is not time for anyone to think or say that ‘the tide is turning’ or ‘that Independence is inevitable’. Now is the time for all good Scots to come into the thick of the campaign. Time for action. Time to campaign, not for waiting for trends to work out.

    Campaigning means decision and action. Who to support. How to make that support most effective. At this stage Holyrood Government must be diligent in supporting Scottish people, proving and re-proving its competence. Thankfully the Holyrood Government is doing that. Also, at this stage the voters must be shown that there exists a huge supportive movement for declaring Scotland independent – this is our job.

    It is not time to give up on Scotland.

    Marches, street actions, house-to-house campaigning, interacting (complaining!) to MSM about their totally transparent bias, speaking up wherever friends will listen, All are needed now under the banner of your choice and never against any other banner.

    SNP has a role. AUOB has a role. Individually we all have a role. Each playing the fullest will see positve attitudes become the settled will of Scotland.

  210. galamcennalath says:

    Breeks says:

    … confine Brexit to those who actually voted for it, make Scottish Independence inevitable, promote the likelihood of a united Ireland …

    Yes, Brexit is becoming so extreme, so OTT, that is seems inconceivable that the whole UK will be dragged over the cliff with England.

    I guess it is more likely that Indy here will come before reunification. One might be spurred on by the other.

    A problem for the Irish Rep is that they don’t want to inherit a sizeable and militant (literally) bunch of die hard BritNats in the North. Scotland has the same problem but to a lesser extent. There are BritNats out there who just will never accept being truly iScottish.

    Something which is rarely faced up to is the inevitable situation where upon constitutional realignment and changing statehoods, people move. In the 1920s/30s as many as 10% of Irish Free State citizens choose to move to the UK where their allegiance actually lay. Stories you read seem to also suggest Irish folks from the UK and the US moved back to their homeland.

    It also seems likely that people in England who feel strong allegiance to the EU (possibly spouses) will choose to move to countries in or close to the EU. So people who didn’t vote for Brexit may move too.

    I would expect some movements occurring, hopefully peacefully and in people’s own good time.

  211. Bob Mack says:

    I guess this is the best opportunity to break away from the UK. People are beginning to focus now on the real issues at stake. That can only be good.

  212. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 7.30
    I don’t think you’re paranoid either!
    N. Ireland will be used and used badly to serve Westminster’s agenda.
    But that’s not really going backwards… That’s no change ….!
    Like us the Northern Irish are not kept within Westminster’s sphere not for any love of “The Union “ but rather they are just a resource……
    I’m hoping that the only difference between us going forward is that we didn’t manage to marry up our independence days, and the only reason that it actually mattered was because of the clash of the parties….

  213. Thepnr says:


    He was actually quoting an earlier post from Robert Louis in a different thread.

    For what it’s worth I agree with you, nothing is yet clear on Brexit but that needn’t prevent us from furthering the cause of Independence while we await a date for a new referendum.

    In fact as far as I’m concerned we should be doing that anyway regardless of Brexit or a second referendum.

    Keep the head screwed on and work your socks of as if one is coming anyway because it will. We really shouldn’t need to be told.

  214. galamcennalath says:

    Tinto Chiel says:

    My country (and their country) is Scotland.

    Indeed. I try to be consistent and say ‘this country’ to mean Scotland. Both when I post here and when I talk in the real world, I avoid much traditional language.

    I refer to the UK as the UK and avoid using ‘Britain’ or ‘British’. Never would consider saying Great Britain. These should be confined to their geographical meanings IMO.

    Parliament is Holyrood. The London institution is Westminster. Similarly the government sits in Edinburgh, the Westminster government sits in London.

    I object particularly to people using nats or nationalists as a default to mean Scottish Independanistas. I ask people which nationalists they are referring to – Scottish, English, or British? I don’t like having to spout the usual caveats about our nationalism being civil, it just too subtle for many. If the situation dictates I claim to be a Scottish pro democracy activist not a nationalist, and turn it round and tell the BritNat they are the nationalist. They really don’t like that line of argument!

  215. Thepnr says:

    @ronnie anderson


    The pressures keep mounting for Theresa May and the flak is coming from all directions. She surely can’t survive in power.

  216. North chiel says:

    “ Scrcdingers cat @ 0659 pm. When it comes down to the wire I’m glad Nicola is in charge”. Me too sir, however, as we see from today “ the precious precious union” ( under absolute Westminster rule ) is the REAL PRIZE for TM , JRM and co. Always has been and they couldn’t care less about Brexit, as today in Northern Ireland and no doubt later in Scotland and Wales will show . A no deal hard Brexit and the Union secured has always been the objective ( if she can get away with it ). She still has her get outs if it looks like Scotland edges towards Independence, ( GE with Corbyn gov or 2nd referendum ) . Yes the Brexit “ smokescreen” is beginning to clear , and yes I am so glad Nicola is “ playing our cards”

  217. Lenny Hartley says:

    Re the Gowf, famously its not the British Open but the Open, the tournament in progress is the 147th since the first one held in Prestwick in 1860. Would it not be fitting that at the 150th to be held at St Andrews that Golf comes home to an Indy Scotland .

  218. haudonthenoo says:

    Given all the present and upcoming turmoil, and there is a lot to come, the NI /Eire status is one to be very worried about. Either way (status quo plus hard Brexit/United Ireland), there will be serious trouble on both sides of the divide. The paramilitaries on both sides are very active now, and have never gone away, are champing at the bit for a reason to re-start the violence. I hope I am wrong.

  219. One_Scot says:

    Lol. Seriously, can you imagine Theresa May trying to say ‘Now is not the time’

  220. Robert Peffers says:

    @Blair Paterson says: 20 July, 2018 at 4:47 pm:

    ” … How easy you all seem to forget the e.u. Leaders talking out against Scottish independense and saying we would have to apply to get back in and yous want to stay with that lot ???”

    No we do not forget the E.U. Leaders talking out against Scottish, “Independense”, (sic), and saying we would have to apply to get back in, but yes “us”, do want to stay with, “that lot”.

    In the first place those EU Leaders you refer to weren’t EU Leaders – they were the likes of a certain, José Manuel Barrosso, an ex-prime Minister of Portugal who was actually not even speaking for the EU Parliament.

    I distinctly remember, (and I didn’t rely upon the United Kingdom’s propaganda wing for their biased impression of what Barrosso actually did say but heard it from his own mouth).

    Barrosso always preceded his anti-Scottish claims by saying something along the lines of, “It is my opinion”, or, “I believe that … “, and even, “I’m not referring to Scotland here” on more than one occasion.

    So first of all Barrosso as the President of the European Commission and not speaking either as an EU Parliamentarian or officially as an EU Commissioner. He was giving his own views. Another thing that the United Kingdom MSM did was foster the opinion that Barrosso was Speaking on behalf of Spain but Barrosso was a Portuguese politician with no right to speak for Spain.

    As a matter of fact the Spanish Parliament issued a press release distancing itself from Barrosso and categorically stating that Spain would NOT be vetoing Scotland. For those who do not know the EC are the paid for Civil Servants of the European Parliament.

    The other salient point is that the circumstances were entirely different from those that apply now. I will explain that – when Barrosso and the United Kingdom Media was pushing the false idea that the EU parliament was anti-Scottish and anti-Scottish independence was long before BRUKEXIT was even mentioned.

    Which means the European Parliament was duty bound to support its member states and that Member State was the United Kingdom and as the Scottish Government was campaigning for independence from the United Kingdom the EU had no official choice but to support its member state. However, those of us with our ears close to the EU ground were warning Scots to pay no attention to the false claims being made.

    Since Westminster was, at that time, claiming officially that the best way for Scotland to remain part of the European Union was to vote, in the Scottish independence referendum, to remain part of the United Kingdom, then just what is it you think the EU was doing wrong, Blair?

    Going on the facts the EU parliament had at that time the best way to keep Scotland in the EU was for Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom as the United Kingdom with Scotland as one of the two sovereign kingdoms would be continuing as EU citizens as a partner kingdom in the United Kingdom.

    That is no longer the case for it turns out Westminster was telling lies then for now the situation is that the best way for Scotland to remain in Europe is to gain her independence.

    So, Blair, either you are a fool or a liar – or both.

    Either you know the real facts and are attempting to twist them – in which case you fondly imagine that other Wingers are idiots and cannot work out things for themselves or you are the idiot who cannot work things out for yourself and so you spout Britnat propaganda.

    So which is it?

    Are we all fools or are you?

    Can you deny that the facts are as I state here? If so let’s all hear your proofs and analysis.

    The facts are that the EU did NOT make the claims you say they did and that the situation at the time was when the United Kingdom was claiming that for Scots to remain part of Europe the Scots should vote to remain part of the UK and the EU.

    Now that is reversed and to remain in the EU Scots must vote to get out of a United Kingdom because now Westminster will be exiting the EU.

    ” … wont it,be great we will get rid of 1master and then have 27other masters independense I don’t think ???”

    And that wee comment proves beyond ant doubt how much of a Britnat idiot you are. In the first place there is no way for the EU to be any individual member state’s master because all member states have an official veto over all EU bills.

    In the second place no EU Member state can be another member state’s master because there is no EU laws, regulations or mechanisms to force any member state to adopt ant EU recommendations.

    Here’s a couple of examples of member states NOT adopting EU Recommendations – The United Kingdom, in spite of being a founder Member of the EU still uses the Pound Sterling and has not adopted the Euro. This was done by agreement .

    Sweden has never adopted the Euro either but Sweden did not do so by just not bothering to adopt the Euro.
    So, as usual, you are blethering pish.

  221. jfngw says:

    @Sinky 7:08pm

    Come on now, give the Westminster funded BBC journalists a break. They have a mound of FOI requests and Tory government press releases to wade through and then communicate to the their licence fee captured audience. They have little time left for investigative journalism, unless you happen to have a juicy SNP story for them?

  222. Bobp says:

    Galamcennalath 8.44pm. When people say to me, are you a scottish nationalist? I say, i’m a Scottish democrat who wants independence for my country.

  223. Scott says:

    Why all this fuss about NI do all of you not remember that Scottish Tory Leader Ruth Davidson told Marr that the Ireland problem had been sorted I wonder when BBC will be asking her what has gone wrong,no chance that happening.

  224. Liz g says:

    galacennalath @ 8.30
    Well…. And I know it’s very much something for after Indy…
    But if Scotland’s idiots continue to get all sectarian then we should integrate the School’s.
    We (fortunately) don’t have our housing schemes segregated,as I understand N. Ireland has… we, I think,must be prepared to act.

    We must learn from what History teaches us,and not leave Scotland open to sectarian agitators.
    But also from what we have learned from studying human behaviour… As in… its much harder to hate someone that is familiar to ye!!!
    I’d wager,the blight of sectarianism would disappear in a generation,our young,given the chance to flourish,won’t concern themselves by which fit anybody kicks with…as long as it’s no kicking them!!!

  225. Tinto Chiel says:

    “(I) tell the BritNat they are the nationalist. They really don’t like that line of argument.”

    To which I sometimes add, galamcennalath, that I am merely a Scottish democrat fighting the inbuilt 12 to 1 democratic deficit of the UK parliament. You have to explain this slowly, though, if you want them to understand.

    Tbh, they usually start frothing before that happens.

  226. Shinty says:

    Westminster don’t give a toss about NI, they just provide useful idiots to continue with their divide and rule Britannia.

    They don’t give a toss about Wales, just somewhere nice to locate/visit within commuting distance of London. They don’t even care if it’s a Labour or Tory Assembly as there is no opposition.

    As for Scotland, suck it up sweaties, ‘We have spent many years conditioning your people in believing you are worthless scrounging, scum of the earth. We will never let you go until you have nothing left to offer.’

    As for the EU, ‘you lot need to ‘evolve’ in order that ‘we Britannia’ can wave the rules once more.

    Do us all a favour Nicola, just call it – We will make it happen.

  227. jfngw says:


    The Tories have no real interest in NI beyond the DUP votes. I’m pretty convinced they would put up with renewed killing/bombing as long as they can keep it contained in NI. After all do you believe people like Rees-Mogg are any different to those that were willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands in WW1 for national pride.

  228. ScottishPsyche says:

    UKIP calling the SNP a ‘disease’, children being used by the Home Office to spy. Jacob RM criticising Varadkar and Barnier for aggressive comments and being ‘Mafia-like’ while the Tories use threats to cut funding, and whatever else they have on them, to MPs who defy their sinister and corrupt Whipping system.

    Every day its a constant barrage of extremist language and actions pouring out of the hard right to mask what they are up to. Then Ruth D is given another puff piece, this time in the New Statesman, to spout her alternative reality in an attempt to salvage her waning fortunes. Has propaganda ever been so blatant?

  229. Shinty says:

    Liz – I would wager that sectarianism is a fraction of what it was 50 years ago especially here in the west of Scotland.

    Only neanderthal parenting keeps it alive.

  230. jfngw says:

    One thing about a Ruth Davidson piece that is consistent is the fact it is basically always about Ruth Davidson and pushing herself. At this minute I suspect she is wondering how she can make that Westminster leap without appearing a hypocrite, she need not worry as we have her card marked already.

    It is her only hope now, she will never be First Minister without collusion from Labour and I can’t believe that they are that mad. Of course maybe she has plans with her Obergruppenführer after Brexit, a sort of Vichy government for Scotland.

  231. North chiel says:

    Great post “ Phil@ 0824 pm “ yes “ our country needs us “

  232. Liz g says:

    Shinty @ 9.43
    Thats my impression too Shinty..
    And it cannot be allowed thrive,it’s a weak spot for us in the early days of Indy.
    While we disengage from Westminster,we need to bare in mind that the British state really has only two positions… They rule it or wreak it….
    Therefore we need to have answers to this.
    Sectarianism is our weak spot..
    We should recognize this… and plan to deal with it,in the way a Government would had they all the power’s of a Sovereign government…
    We must always remember… It’s only ever the poor who fight this “” thing “” out. .. And thats the Real lesson for Scotland!!

  233. ronnie anderson says:

    liz g sectarianism in a Independent Scotland won’t be resolved easily not when we have the Churches interference ( don’t forget thats their continued futures revenues sources ) . Multi faith schools should be built & all religious teaching banned ( thats what the Churches are there for ).

  234. Welsh Sion says:

    Whilst much of the MSM seem pre-occupied with Brexit and Theresa’s visit to Norn Ireland, it seems convenient that this news story didn’t make it today.

    As usual, as the original is in Welsh, I supply you with a translation.


    The Queen of England makes more brass

    20 July 2018 at 10:39 Last updated 19:52

    The income the Queen of England receives from her portfolio of land, property and private assets has increased by £1 million.

    According to its latest accounts, there has been an increase of 4.9% in the 2017-18 financial year, with the income rising from £19.2 million to £20.1 million.

    The Duchy of Lancaster is the name of the Queen’s private portfolio of land, property and assets.

    It is a “guardian” of thousands of acres of land in England and Wales, including historic buildings, high quality farming land and areas of natural beauty.

    The Chief Executive of the Duchy of Lancaster said: “It has been another positive year for the Duchy with strong growth in almost all of our trading areas.”

    The value of the Duchy assets has increased by 2.9% from £518.7 million to £533.8 million.

    The Duchy of Lancaster does not have to pay corporation tax, but the Queen volunteers to pay income tax on the revenue she receives from the Duchy.

    Last month that it was revealed that the Queen’s living costs had increased by 13% as she had paid for repairs to Buckingham Palace.

    The Queen of England receives £45.7 million of taxpayers’ money annually.


  235. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s definitely time to sharpen up, and fortunately there are plenty of unionist tools around to help us do so. Not all unionists are tools of course.

    I’ve come to the conclusion that Indy supporters know how to use google whereas many unionists don’t even know it exists. Some I think must have been licking food off their keyboards and accidentally stumbled on forums. They haven’t dared switch the computer off ever since in case they lose them.

  236. Sinky says:

    Tories gearing up for Autumn general election

    Jacob Rees-Mogg’s business partner, a string of Brexit backers and the wife of a former senior minister to Vladimir Putin are among the Conservative donors who have paid more than £7m to socialise with Theresa May since the general election.

    Eighty-one party benefactors have paid a total of £7.4m to the Conservative party for access to the prime minister at dinners, lunches after PMQs and drinks receptions since July 2017, records show.

    Party insiders said the large amount raised over just nine months from a single revenue stream was evidence that the Tories were aiming to be “election ready” for the autumn.

  237. Dr Jim says:

    Susan Brown the moderator of the Church of Scotland said on BBC radio *While the church is not party political our position is we are Pro European*

    Now she’s not saying vote for Independence but YES she is

  238. galamcennalath says:

    The EU is taking a huge gamble that we will surrender if it keeps pushing. What if we don’t? – The Telegraph

    When I saw that new headline I laughed.

    Then I thought, this new negotiating tactic where the the UK puts a gun to its own head and says “do as we want or the far right loony gets it first” … is becoming a little too popular. It’s been a recurring theme for the last few days.

    Clearly someone’s been watching Blazing Saddles!

    The Spectator, another lunatic propaganda sheet, runs advice to TMay today saying the same thing…. “stick to the strategy she announced at Lancaster House and to go to Brussels with the clear backstop position of walking away “.

    I keep thinking of a historical precedent for this fiasco. All that comes to mind are mad scenes from comedy movies. It’s like something Monty Python would have dreamt up!

  239. Lenny Hartley says:

    Nobody in the MSM is mentioning the other Border Issues the UK has apart from Northern Ireland. Barnier mentioned them in his speech today, presumably the same issues a hard Brexit will bring about in NI will also occur between Gibralter and Spain and The two UK Sovereign Base area’s in akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus. THe UK Government is stuck between a Rock and a Hard Place.
    They need services out of EU control otherwise London, the money laundering capital of the World will be brought under control in January 2019 when agressive Tax Avoidance is made illegal. Barnier said today that you cannot seperate services from trade, you can only draw one conclusion whatever route they choose, their fucked 🙂

  240. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dr Jim
    Being as how the Church of Scotland has been integral to the Constitution of Scotland in various ways, it should have been pro-YES in Indy Ref 1. That was yet another disappointment, as so many bodies and parties failed to get behind Indy.

  241. yesindyref2 says:

    @Lenny Hartley
    Who, do you think, you are kidding Mrs May yay,
    If you think Olde England’s won?

    They don’t make ’em like that any more.

  242. liz g says:

    Ronnie Anderson @ 10.12
    Oh Ronnie,,nay argument there.
    I’m sayin.. In the early days of Indy… They WILL behave or the School’s will be integrated.
    I know that the Churches do and will try to preserve their ” privileged ” position”.
    We can use that…. As I said they need to behave..
    Westminster will hit us in our weak spot,,that’s sectarianism.
    We must have answers…. I am a bit of a Bitch about this thing…. I’m totally intolerant about it….
    Integrate the School’s….
    Why this separate but equal education is not called,..Jim Crow Law’s baffles me!!!!
    Oh Ronnie.. I want this shit gone from Scotland..
    But we have no chance with Westminster in control

  243. Ken500 says:

    Sectarianism will die out. The Churches are losing members faster than a sieve loses water. It will die out because of the falling numbers. One of the reasons many do not embrace organised religion is because of division and sectarianism.

    The Churches are becoming community for elderly women (men die younger). They do give some people comfort but not everyone embraces organised religion any more. It was once used for social control. Good and evil. Heaven and hell. Fear & Redemption. A different world. Religion has to be tolerated in society. Tolerance is part of a democracy.

    The Churches have privileges above the Law. The equal opportunity Laws etc. They do some good charity work but many are funded with public money. Tax free status. The State could provide aid instead of charitable status in some cases. They do support people who need it. Refugees homeless etc but it could be argued the State should be giving support but doesn’t. Caring for others. Altruism. Makes people feel good. Psychology. People do care about other people. Compassion is evident in the world.

    The Churches are some of the wealthiest institutions on the planet.

  244. Phronesis says:

    There is no United Kingdom either in or out of the EU. Scotland (the country) didn’t vote for any of this muddle and fudge. Whether it concerns EU trade deals, research, infrastructure and environmental projects, commerce and the workforce, reciprocal legal arrangements, human rights the scope of our relationship with the EU is our choice- a decision that Scotland made during a democratic vote.

    ‘It is both ironic and depressing that the growing muddle and fudge around the UK’s strategy for a post-Brexit future should coincide with the release of the European Commission’s exciting proposals for the next phase of EU development, particularly for Erasmus and Horizon Europe (the research framework programme re-titled) for the period 2021-2027′

    WM is not a functioning democracy. That requires leaders who enact the best of human endeavours- a constant and sincere commitment to human rights and dignity for all. Without human rights there is no democracy, without that there is no social stability and without that there is no economic growth even when one can move one’s hedge fund around the global trading market. How does one face the public at large when one is hoping that one’s commodities yield windfall profits at the expense of growing unemployment, hunger and food insecurity?

  245. yesindyref2 says:

    OT – just because I feel like it.
    There’s an article in The National in Scots, as there often is. I don’t often read Scots though perfectly capable of doing so, just because it takes me twice as long, maybe more to read. I translate it in my head, rather than understand it straight away and that takes a lot longer. You get the same thing with German for instance, but if you learn it well enough, you can even dream in it – I did at times when in Germany.

    Anyway, that’s the point in a way, there’s the usual one or two posters on that National article claiming it’s a dialect not a language. Doing so they actually reveal their ignorance as to what a language is, or a dialect is, and there are many definitions – and none.

    One definition I like, and the one I’d go by, is that if the native speakers think it’s a language then it is.

    But another one I thought of just for fun is this. Language itself is a form of communication, dialect is a way of making communication more difficult while at the same time encouraging a sense of community.

    Try applying that definition to German, French, English – or Scots.

    Watch your language as Petra would say 🙂

  246. ben madigan says:

    sectarianism is a nasty beast to deal with – but if a state doesn’t deal with it, it will seize the upper hand and say

    “it’s our culture, it’s traditional, we’ve always done things this way”

    Manifestations/demonstrations/marches/parades by sectarian organisations need to be held in remote areas or in ticketed venues.
    So the general popuation is not inconvenienced or forced to watch them
    Businesses, professionals and shops that are known to support a sectarian viewpoint should be boycotted.

    As far as regards schools – separation of state and religion.
    If parents want their children to have a religious education, they do it in their own time, on other premises, outside of school hours.

    But private schools, you object! They can do what they want religion-wise.

    True -and they should have the right to exist and flourish if they can.
    But and it’s a big BUT – an independent Scotland should not award any special prestige to private schools.

    It should be made clear from the start they are considered inferior to state schools and parents should be proud to support the state education system because it offers better opportunities to their children.
    This implies higher standards in state schools and no way that paying will get the student a privileged pass!

    GCSEs from a state school should be considered better, more prestigious when applying for university or an apprenticeship or a job
    (particularly within an independent scotland).

  247. Ken500 says:

    Charles gets £20Million a year and pays £2Million in tax. A tenth. The Royals got fabulously rich by no paying (income) tax for years. The extravagant lifestyle is totally over the top. Beyond belief. They would have been wealthy but nothing compared to their present lifestyle. Just beggars belief. The tax evasion etc.

    They are supposed to be totally impartial and non biased politically but they are always interfering and expressing political views behind the scene. There is an argument for a constitutional monarchy with a totally impartial head of State. If that is what people want but not to interfere in public affairs. It defeats the purpose. Once some of them pop their cloggs, it will be interesting to see how long they last under the present arrangement.

    They should pay their tax on business profits as well. They are trading on their official status. The fawning and preening that goes on is quite unnecessary. The wider circle should get a job. Not just breeding. It is not right that the wealthiest people tax evade. They should pay up like everyone else. The cost of the wedding was extortionate. Just bizarre.

  248. Greannach says:

    I don’t think many state schools deal in GCSEs. At least, not in this country.

  249. ben madigan says:

    @Greannach who said:
    20 July, 2018 at 11:55 pm
    “I don’t think many state schools deal in GCSEs. At least, not in this country”.

    You’re quite right. I apologise for the gaffe, which was due to the fact I was educated under the English system.And wrote automatically without thinking!

    However my points remain – make state schools in an independent scotland more prestigious than private schools and keep religion outside of schools

  250. Ken500 says:

    It is surreal that politicans who sanction, starve people, kill and maim millions are never out of the Churches participating in organised religion.

    Scotland is secular. There are more people non religious than church going. Many religious countries still separate State from religion. Two different functions. The Act of Union did make provision that there would be separate Official Churches – England and Scotland but they would be Protestant and have the same Protestant monarch. The Catholics were discriminated against for years. Not allowed to be members of Parliament, Until 1861? Not allowed to marry Royalty. Although most people would not in any case. Illegal Partition of Ireland when the Irish wanted Home Rule/Independence. They got nothing but trouble and strife because of Westminster policies. Still ongoing.

    Paisley has been suspended for 30 days from Westminster because of taking illegal donations and holidays from Sri Lankan Gov and not declaring it. There are reports that efforts will be made to deselect him.

  251. Chick McGregor says:

    Thanks again Bob.

    So is there actually more admirals than captains? Again this is presumption on my part that there would be one captain for every ship plus, perhaps, a retained reserve and others involved in on shore training ‘ships’.

    If so, it seems a strange command structure when there are more chiefs than indians.

  252. Ken500 says:

    The Churches often used to speak out about inequality and poor policies but now they do not. The ‘Red’ Archbishop. The Tories passed a Law stopping Charities speaking out or they would lose their funding.

  253. Chick McGregor says:

    Sorry if ‘chiefs than indians’ is another expression common to people of my years in the past that has fallen into the taboo pit. I have no knowledge that it has but after I posted I thought, oops haven’t heard that for a few years, maybe it has become a no no like so many others.

    No racism intended.

  254. Dr Jim says:

    Whatever religion a school may be based on as long as participation in that religion is optional then there should be no problem
    The teaching of comparative mythology can be informative, I only have a problem when people call it factual where no definitive proof exists, that then becomes dogma which is what always leads to my dogma’s better than your dogma and *Bazinga* 2000 years on and what have we got, hundreds of different versions of drivel

    I’m quite sure if there is or was a God he never intended any of this to happen but greedy power hungry people get their hooks into it like any other crime against humanity and twist a good purpose to their own profit

  255. I challenge the Herald Britland to reproduce this Ruth Davidson article from the New Statesman. Go on Tom Gordon, a cut and paste job easy money.
    Let the people of Scotland, well about 20,000 out of 5.4 million read this treasonous litany of lies from Mum 2 B Davidson in the dying Herald.
    This woman hates Scotland and social democracy.
    Unbelievable lies about Scotland.
    Go on Herald: print this vile nonsense. Let the people of Scotland know that Davidson thinks that we’re too wee and a colony of England.
    This is disgusting and designed to enrage Scottish citizens.
    it worked.
    Davidson is the best recruitment sergeant the SNP ever had. Keep it up, you egotistical little self promoter.

  256. Cactus says:

    Hey News of a world!

    Get beyond it beauties.

    That’s where ahm a goin’ Anstruther… oor east coast.

    Girls are very pretty…


  257. Cactus says:

    Grrrrreat news like aye, cherish it.

    One is HOME like.

    FUCKING wifi.

    LOVE it.


  258. Cactus says:

    Fucking fuck.

  259. Cactus says:

    Who do U love…?




  260. James Barr Gardner says:

    O/T – The Abbey Church of Dunfermline (Church of Scotland) is open every day between March to late October between 10am to 4.30pm from Monday to Saturday and from 2.30 to 4.30 on a Sunday. Unfortunately, the Abbey is not open during the week to visitors during the four winter months so if you want to see tomb of King Robert the Bruce it is only possible during the church service on a Sunday! BTW it’s a bit strange to see the pulpit erected over the tomb of one of Scotland’s Patriots, is this some kind of statement that the Kirk is higher elevated than a King of Scots !

  261. Jeff says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    20 July, 2018 at 1:20 pm
    Is this woman even sane?

    Robert – you are correct, but we are in the hands of lunatics – as far as the Westminster crooks are concerned ‘who gives a f*uck’? Was it not tested during the Poll Tax – illegal in the Act of Union to tax one country and not the other? Was brought up in parliament at the time but the speaker (Boothroyd as I remember) said ‘it is not the duty of this house to debate the Act of Union’ and moved on to other business….

  262. Cactus says:

    Fucking Scotland.

    Tis who we are.

    Do ye disagree?


    Do you love Scotland?

    2:14 like.

  263. Cactus says:

    Two fucking seventeen.

    Scotland knows.

    Do it like.


  264. Jeff says:

    2.08am; James Barr Gardner says:”BTW it’s a bit strange to see the pulpit erected over the tomb of one of Scotland’s Patriots, is this some kind of statement that the Kirk is higher elevated than a King of Scots !”

    James, don’t forget that it was the Scottish church that propelled Robert forward to be our King (and that’s what eventually saved us and a Nation)… The church wasn’t Presbyterian in those days of course… but I wonder, as the minister stands above that extraordinary tomb in Dunfermline nowadays – does he or she feel that the sermon has to be something special or relevant to Scotland? I know I came over all emotional when I visited…..

  265. Cactus says:

    To agitate, is intentional like Wingers.

    User ‘Rock’ knows.

    Do U know?

    SO do U.

  266. Cactus says:

    Stock up on yer baked beans n breed n bovril post ukexit citizens… the quickening could, can and will save you.

    Be Bonnie Scotland.

    She knows.

    Be normal.

    Fucking fuck to the fuck there is no fuck filter.

    Respect fuck.

    Sweet Wings.

  267. Cactus says:

    Be shocked and enthralled at the same time readers!

    Aye really really really give a fuck…!

    Do you give a fuck for Scotland?

    Double 17 like.

  268. Cactus says:

    Yeah it’s fucking disgusting what some people say… ahm fucked if aye know like.. some people swear all the time… do you feel fucking offended… good, it’s important like, don’t be a fucking pussy, miaow.

    Ahm back on the fucking wifi, that means aye can play a fucking song.

    Here’s a fucking song…

    You may fall to fucking pieces:

    That’s UKexit like.

    Tis been a long year.

    SO far…

  269. Cactus says:

    Tis a fucking chaser:

    Do ye need some time, awe by yersel…

  270. Cactus says:

    Fuck death.

    Live it.


  271. Cactus says:

    Aye fuck death when there is SO much good stuff to be WON.

    I fucking wonder if this could be the most sweared upon thread.

    The language of the kids these days is fucking shocking.

    Taking it to the fucking MAX like fuck.

    Does one fucking agree?

    With love x.

  272. Cactus says:

    Today is a cool day for:

    Capturing the campaign.

    Meet Hamish, meet Chris Cairns.

    Cheers guys 🙂

    Seven DTG.


  273. Cactus says:

    Last comment until Saturday Cairnstoon…

    Why is it whenever aye announce ahm East coast, immediately thereafter ma holiday-HOME Humax freesat Challenge signal goes bye-bye.

    Peek-a-boo.. aye can see you, too.

  274. Cactus says:

    Put yours hands on your face and cover up your eyes…

    Aye just can’t help myself:

    Please pay attention.

    Ha ha ha…


  275. Cactus says:

    Takin’ ye through the night and the morning:

    Lay down your law books.


    Almost there Scotland.

  276. Cactus says:

    Recommended to me, SO ahm givin’ it back to you:

    This thread may return to normality.

    Over to you Chris…

  277. Cactus says:

    Hoops, looks like aye did it again.

    Good mornin’, mornin’.

  278. yesindyref2 says:

    LOL 🙂


  279. Smallaxe says:

    The top law officers in Northern Ireland and Wales have backed the @scotgov in protecting Scotland’s Parliament.;

    BBC Scotland on obesity: My complaint, their tiny grudging acceptance;

    Japan set to join Scotland’s Saltire Scholarships programme;

  280. Smallaxe says:

    UK steps up doomsday planning for no-deal Brexit;

    Brexit’s Bitter Pill – How Significant Was the Government’s Defeat on the Trade Bill Amendment?;

    I think we the West is in a state of neurotic hysteria with Russophobia. It seems that the #US has a visceral need to have an enemy.;

  281. Smallaxe says:

    HARD BREXIT, HERE WE COME? with guest David Allen Green;

    34 years ago, a KGB defector chillingly predicted modern America;

    Theresa May LIED – the Tories HAVE NOT adopted the IHRA definition of antisemitism in their rulebook;

  282. Smallaxe says:

    As Trump twists and turns after Putin summit, there’s one Noam Chomsky video we all need to watch;

    We have a government of total halfwits.;

    Amesbury poisoning victim Charlie Rowley released from hospital;

    Have a peaceful and positive Saturday, Wingers.

  283. tidsear clas says:

    Cactus, all your swearing puts me completely off Wings. Sorry, but there you are and it certainly will not convert soft No’s to Yes who are new to Wings.

  284. Robert Peffers says:

    @jfngw says: 20 July, 2018 at 6:11 pm:

    “I hear Ruth Davidson has written something about how to balance Scotland’s books. Apparently it involves some sort of financing from secret donations, but she is not willing to expand on how this money will be obtained or who the donors are.”

    Unfortunately, jfngw, that humour will go whoosh! – right over the heads of most non-Scots.

    Just by chance I was talking to a young guy yesterday. He is a very keen computer gamer. I was saying I was again re-playing through the several, “Grand Theft Auto”, games. This games franchise, GTA, was created in Scotland by Scots before being taken over by Rockstar Games. The open-world concept it began is now the main type of concept of the whole games industry.

    The young guy thought the game GTA V,(five), was old hat and he had, “finished it”, years ago. Thing is GTA V was top game in the latest top twenty games charts and is the top game so far in computer games history. The young guy had, he thought, beaten the game because he thought it was, “Just a very good shoot em up”. Which, incidentally it is.

    However, it is much, much more than a simple shoot em up and it also is absolutely full of Scottish humour that most of the rest of the World just doesn’t get. I’ve been playing this GTA game, (off and on), since it came out in September 2013. and I’m still finding more examples of Saltires and bits of unique Scottish humour 5 years later.

    For example there are two in-game stock markets the player can use to invest in-game money in – the one that is only really active when playing on-line, is called The, “BAWSAQ”. How many non-Scots will get the humour in that?

    Just a couple of days ago I noticed one Scots joke I have missed before. The in-game internet has this advert for the BAWSAQ – “Dealing in life’s ups and downs”.

    Many of the street and place names are Scottish places too but even when there isn’t a direct Scottish reference the humour is often very Scottish in character. Besides all that there are in-game mysteries that have never been completely solve yet. It is very much more than a very good shoot em up or a very good good car racing game. What is more you can now play on-line against other gamers instead of in single player mode against the original game concept.

    Anyway – you gave me the best laugh of the week with your comment and I very much needed a good laugh ATM.

  285. Bill McLean says:

    Chick at 1222am. Never been in the forces myself but over my working life spent a lot of time in military, naval and air force environments. Captain in the Royal Navy is simply a rank above Commander, which is above Lieutenant Commander, which is above Lieutenant. The captain of a ship in the RN is a position, not a rank. The captain may be a Lieutenant or indeed a Lieutenant Commander or a Commander. Sometimes it is even a “Captain” in rank as well as position. The captain of an RN ship would probably be determined by it’s size/importance at any given time. A Captain in the Army is a much lower rank than a Navy Captain and equates to a Lieutenant in the Navy.
    That’s how I understood it anyway. Maybe Robert or Andy could elucidate further.

  286. Les Wilson says:

    This seems a very good innovative idea, have a look

  287. Chick McGregor says:

    Thanks Bill.

    My ignorance on the matter left exposed for all to see.

    My sole sources of knowledge on captaincy being Star Trek and Black Sails.

  288. Bill McLean says:

    Not ignorance at all Chick – how many folk do you know who know everything and if you do do you really want to know them? As I wrote I spent a fair amount of time with the armed forces and you pick up some of the actualite. A wee bit further research tells me that army landing craft can be “captained” by a sergeant. Loved Star Trek but have to admit ignorance on “Black Sails”.

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