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Misery demands company

Posted on October 16, 2018 by

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227 to “Misery demands company”

  1. Merkin Scot says:

    Threats and Vows – a new album from the Yoon Twins.
    Heard it before, unfortunately.

  2. uno mas says:

    Christ is it Saturday morning already?

    Where the hell did the week go!!

  3. John Moss says:

    Really? Who cares? Bye bye!

  4. Helena Brown says:

    What a bonny pair they make, just as well I’ve eaten it would have put me off my tea.
    Aye cringing brings it’s own reward, a nice seat in the House of Lords and £300 a day whether you need it or not.

  5. Street Andrew says:

    Well done, Chris. Good to see you beginning to capture Ruthie’s likeness.

  6. ALLEN RALSTON says:

    Viewing the omnishambles/cluster foul up that are the brexit negotiations and also the machinations of pro brexit politicians i’m very tempted to sign this with my name and a slogan just so the Rev will kill me with hammers so I never hear of it again .

  7. Street Andrew says:

    Helena Brown says:
    “…. a nice seat in the House of Lords and £300 a day …”

    Don’t knock it ……this is the pilot for the new universal pension and elderly care scheme.

    The House of Lords offers the best elderly day-care facilities for the bewildered in the known world.

    After Brexit this will surely be available to us all. I’m sure I saw that on the side of a bus somewhere.

  8. Davy says:

    I see fuddly muddly is already reversing his position on resigning.

    I expect mum2b to follow shortly

  9. Dan Huil says:

    They are both disgusting individuals. Tractors.

  10. Scotspine says:

    Fantastic likenesses. Captures their characters completely.

  11. Capella says:

    I cringe every time these idiots appear in the media. How embarrassing they are. Along with their colleagues Ross Thompson, Adam Tompkins, Jamie Greene, Annie Wells, Murdo Fraser, Andrew Bowie, etc etc etc. It’s a crowded field.
    Why are Scottish Tories so embarrassing? CameronB Brodie – there must be an academic paper explaining this curious phenomenon.

  12. Astonished says:

    In light of Brexit I’ve decided to stockpile lamp posts and piano wire.

  13. galamcennalath says:

    It is good to know that they will pull out of politics as the UK disintegrates.

  14. Andy smith says:

    Amazing how fluffy fits a tea-pot into that briefcase.

  15. mark johnston says:

    Yup it’s all about HoL with this pair.

  16. ronnie anderson says:

    Sos for O/T .

  17. ronnie anderson says:

    Christ Chris U’ve uased the template fur Jackie Baillie toon LoL , that must be your midweek special toon Well done .

  18. Connor McEwen says:


  19. Big Jock says:

    I will resign over anything that threatens my pay packet and serves my constituents.

  20. Artyhetty says:


    Fab, and a treat midweek as well.

    Those who self promote and self serve, and then threaten to resign their hugely paid positions, it’s meant to scare who? These people have delusions of grandeur.

    It reminds me of those mafia films where the little guy is always feart, trying to please so as he doesn’t p**s off his mafia boss in anyway, otherwise…it won’t be pretty.

    Mundell and Davidson are small fry, squirming nasty troughers, and jobs worths. Just not the sort of people one may wish to fraternise with!

  21. A. Bruce says:

    Nice one Chris. Fluffy and Tank Commander Hippocrit down to a T.

  22. robertknight says:

    I thought Abbott and Costello were dead?

  23. Liz g says:

    Can some kind reader please fix Ronnie Anderson’s link @ 7.07
    It’s well worth a read…

  24. Az says:

    Awesome Chris

  25. Valerie says:

    @ Liz g

    See if this works. Jason McCann states AUOB have lied.

  26. Liz g says:

    Thats working fine..Thank you Valerie.

  27. Peter Macbeastie says:


    I thought ‘Arlene Foster’s looking a bit better than usual’ until I looked at the first comment and it’s actually Ruthie.

    Apologies, should have been obvious, but of course she’s been totally anonymous for the last few months only appearing on the sort of shite light entertainment programmes I don’t watch anyway, and giving a speech to a near empty room at the Tory conference which I actively tried to avoid but couldn’t find the remote in time to turn it off the news… which I watch as I appear to have a masochistic streak.

    Not, apparently, masochistic enough to watch Question Time, tho… not after the near miss with a mug.

    Fortunately my aim is shite, otherwise it would have been through the telly.

  28. Andy-B says:

    Those two have no honour, they’ll never resign, self preservation is at the heart of every Tory’s thinking.

    Nice one Chris.

  29. Petra says:

    Pretty pathetic looking, aren’t they. Sixty two percent of Scots voted to remain in the EU and yet they’re backing their English bosses in dragging Scotland out. How low can you go?

    They’ll resign if NIreland gets a different deal from rUK. Aye right enough. His days are numbered and he knows it, Ross Thompson for one is waiting to oust him, and she’s preparing to bail out because she realises that she’s backed the wrong horse. A couple of ignorant chancers, two of many, who are getting paid big bucks to sell the Scots out.

  30. Q. says:

    On an alien planet this pair would make babies not of the beautiful variety.

  31. Robert Louis says:

    Valeri at751pm

    That article you have linked to is most interesting. This really needs sorted out and fast. We all need to be on guard for those who for whatever reason might seek to mis-use the independence movement, or even worse, ‘set it up’ in some way.

    Very sad to hear of this kind of behaviour.

    Let’s hope something gets sorted.

    Of course, it has to be said, this is the kind of thing which can flourish where their is a lack of leadership.

    Article LINK;

  32. Bob Mack says:

    “No ,I said we had resigned ourselves—-to beating Scotland”

  33. yesindyref2 says:

    There ARE two sides, and that’s all I’m saying.

  34. Breeks says:

    After all the time, money and exposure they have invested in her, the BBC would never allow Ruthie to resign. They’d have to dig up another one, and start the manufacturing process all over again.


    I am genuinely conflicted by the trouble brewing with AUOB. Conflicted yes because while it is important for YES to be squeaky clean and smearproof, the AUOB people stepped up and did something when everybody else seemed in such a headlong rush to do nothing.

    I know personally, that I wouldn’t like to think where my head might have been by now if I hadn’t been to over half of these AUOB marches and been reassured that Independence wasn’t actually dead in the water.

    Frankly, I think when you look at the wider picture, the AUOB marches are a shooting Star phenomenon. They are not meant to be forever, nor carry the impetus or deliver upon a mandate. They are a thing of the moment.

    The marches have sustained us, and given us aspirational nourishment while our Independentist Government has given us year after year of Presbyterian bread and water, and any number of cold showers to dampen our ardour.

    Do you really want to pull apart the AUOB phenomenon now? It’s the only thing we’ve got firing on all four cylinders.

  35. Terence callachan says:

    Mundell, Davidson , Thomson , Fraser, wells ,etc etc are fools but they are not conservative politicians by accident, they were chosen specifically because they ARE fools , so much of what they say just does not make sense so much so that we all sit back and laugh at them make jokes about them and ridicule them which takes the focus away from important aspects of these individuals and just how little they do over and above media spats.
    The real people in power are based in London and it is they that choose these idiots , these people in power are the ones who own land across Scotland and run big business they stay low key and act like puppeteers using the fools as agitators.
    We must remember to make sure the idiots lose their special treatment once Scotland is independent.
    Ruth Davidson is now cosying up to the DUP in Northern Ireland and the English Nationalist agenda of trying to make the whole of Scotland England Northern Ireland and Wales into one country their eventual aim is to abandon and mention of Scotland Northern Ireland and Wales and just call it all ENGLAND.

  36. Sarah says:

    @ Breeks 8.32 Not pull apart the phenomenon BUT the basis of all decent society is truth. Liars/gangsters tarnish everything – we cannot condone them.

    There’s plenty of people who would organise the marches just as well. In fact after the Inverness march I read [on here?] that it was actually organised by two locals and not by AUOB tho’ the latter took the credit.

  37. Petra says:

    @ Ronnie at 7:07pm ….. “Something stinks.”

    Something stinks right enough. It sounds as though three dangerous, lying, thugs are running the show. Well I’ve had my say on this already. I don’t like being used. I don’t reckon Police Scotland like being used either. How dare they in fact. How dare they compromise the Independence movement with their, to say the least dodgy behaviour. One thing for sure is that just about anyone could do what they’re doing … organising supposedly on OUR behalf and they should take note of that. Time for them to publish the minutes of the AUOB meeting too with PS etc and let’s have a look at their detailed accounts.

    And really sorry to hear that you Ronnie, Jason and a number of others have been given such a hard time by them. It’s not good enough. Looking on the bright side I’m hoping that Edinburgh was our last ever march and we get shot of them for good.

  38. jfngw says:

    How desperate are these three unionist parties to return Holyrood to basically the talking shop pre 2007, discussing how they should implement decisions handed down from Westminster. The only competition was who could hand back the biggest rebate and who would be first in line for the ermine.

    Have a look at the ennobled MSP’s and try and recall anything of much substance they achieved for Scotland.

  39. Alba 46 says:

    Agree with Breeks 100%. If certain posters and AUOB have a disagreement get it sorted out face to face or offline.

    Its a hard enough job fighting the Brit nats without a public rammy going on for days on this blog.

    I don’t know what the disagreement is about (and don’t want to know) but I agree with Breeks that the marches organised by AUOB have been a a fantastic success and galvanised Yes supporters from all over Scotland.

    Get it sorted out guys offline. Don’t wash your dirty linen in public and give succor to these Brit nat clowns.

  40. frogesque says:

    Like the Scottish National footie team (men’s) we are determined to turn a winning side to a bunch of losers.

    WTF is it with AOUB? The marches are brilliant, grass root and growing. Why then do we need to navel gaze and invent confrontations to fit egos.

    Nothing is perfect and AOUB is essentially an amateur production. Everyone needs to calm down and talk. Mistakes have been made so learn. We all in the YES movement need to take care we don’t year ourselves apart. Nothing would give the Unionists greater glee than to stoke infighting and talk of the great crime of organisational and fiscal impropriety.

    AOUB need a Constitution and accounts. Others with bruised egos need to grow a pair and talk privately, not whine openly on social media. If not then stfu, it helps no one.

    Finally, the wider YES is inclusive. I want a left wing view, a centrist view and a right wing view. If that means embracing some forward thinking conservatives then it’s all good. We the people own our Sovereignty. It is not for sale or manipulation by any one group or faction. This is about our children’s future. I march for them!

  41. Pacman says:

    I had a hearty laugh when I read of these two bozo’s threats of resignation.

    What will generate an even bigger laugh is when their bluff is called and they wiggle and squirm out of their previous comments and continue on.

  42. yesindyref2 says:

    @frogesque / @Breeks
    Well said.

  43. Collie says:

    Totally agree, AUOB done a brilliant job in Edinburgh.

  44. Mike says:

    Snack beard has already denied he ever threatened to resign. I expect Cruella De Ville to follow suit within the next few days or so.

  45. Liz g says:

    Alba 46 @ 8.56
    Its about not being blindsided by the MSM if and when they decide to run with it.
    As other’s have said there’s plenty that can organise marches without manipulating the Yes movement down a path they may not want to be on if they had the full facts.
    Nobody wants to stop the marches only to keep them as something we can look back on with pride…and that means exchanging information about them where ever and when ever we need to..
    We are all on the same page …
    We want successful marches and not a sudden MSM driven deamonisation of them!

  46. CameronB Brodie says:

    It really isn’t in the best interests of Scotland to allow such limited individuals to determine our future, nor the future available to unborn generations. The 18th century millennial spirit of yoonion has deminished, and moral justification for Britain, long expired. Here’s some Social and Political Philosophy views of Brexit, a very English nervous breakdown.

    Rousseau’s Revenge: The Political Philosophy of Brexit


    The political philosophy behind Brexit was a product of disenchantment stemming from the political inequality associated with post-democracy. The referendum itself was an attempt to allay fears that popular opinion was being excluded on the EU issue. This chapter explains that political representation under post-democracy exacerbates the fundamental inequality between ruled and ruling that preoccupied Jean-Jacques Rousseau. Yet resorting to direct democracy to create political equality between governed and governing worked only momentarily. The challenge thus facing the British political establishment after Brexit is that of maintaining belief in the representativeness of the governing and in the sovereignty of the people. Rousseau’s revenge comes not by providing a counter-model of democracy, but rather by asking questions representative democracy struggles to answer.

    The Contradictory Political Philosophy of Brexit

    Legitimacy crisis

    Initial analysis of the vote showed that 75 per cent of Conservative-held parliamentary constituencies and 70 per cent of Labour ones had a majority for leave. Not for nothing did Nigel Farage, the then leader of the UK Independence Party (Ukip) whose success was a catalyst for holding the vote, declare the result a victory ‘for real people, ordinary people, decent people’. This folksy rhetoric points to the very real fault line revealed by the Brexit vote. What the campaign waged by the Leave side tapped into so successfully was a general sentiment that the people are no longer sovereign. To reprise the language of Abraham Lincoln, opponents of the EU made hay with the notion that government in the UK is not by and of the people or even for the people. Direct democracy was thus invoked – in the land where parliamentary sovereignty is deemed sacred – to remedy the perceived pathology of how representative democracy managed the UK’s relationship with the EU….

    Brexit anxiety: a case study in the medicalization of dissent


    This paper illustrates how concepts of mental disorder have been deployed to medicalize negative emotions and, thereby, weaken the political agency of some individuals. First, I theorise the link between political agency and emotions, arguing that effective political action entails the transformation of emotions into public issues. Using the British referendum on membership in the EU as a case study, I then examine how medically loaded terms and rhetoric were used to describe suffering after the vote. Finally, I argue that this generated conditions that interrupted or even reversed the transformation of subjective experiences into politically meaningful issues.

    Keywords: Arendt, political emotions, political agency, EU referendum, Brexit

  47. yesindyref2 says:

    Posted this in the other thread by mistake. Oops.

    It’s OT and NOT connected with anything else in this thread.

    Personal abuse against us pro-Indy posters in the MSM is increasing, including mysoginistic, sexist and even homophobic attacks where relevant, and we’re being told to “go away”. I think we’re also being followed with attacks in friendly forums, which may be differently slanted.

    For anyone else in that position, this is GOOD NEWS as it shows the panic in the breasties of the Unionist beasties. Keep the head up, keep polite and reasonable, and keep right on to the end of the road.

    Which won’t be long now.

  48. Valerie says:

    In case you missed it.

    DEFRA announces an independent review of how farmers are allocated funding.

    This will be interesting, in a time when no EU funding coming in, and Brexit is dragging the economy into the toilet.

  49. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 9.12
    Yes I agree with frogesque too .
    A Constitution and Accounts would be a great start!

  50. Alba 46 says:

    Liz g

    I don’t disagree with any of your comments. The msm do not need any help in attacking the YES movement. Any excuse will do and they will exploit the tiniest indiscretion (and if there isn’t one they will invent one) to the max in TV, radio and print media.

    Public displays of disagreement only give ammo to our enemies. That’s why this issue has to be sorted using a bit of common sense offline and NOT day after day on this blog.

  51. Collie says:

    The end of English colonialism draws ever closer.

    Lets hope England falls off the face of the earth after Brexit

    Not long now.

    The Irish border conundrum was always going to win us our ticket out of this stinkin fuckin Union we are stuck in with the detested English .

  52. Iain says:

    Ulster will never surrender,
    We will never come under Rome rule.
    Funny how two people representing Scotland care more for a foreign province than the country they were elected to serve.

  53. PacMan says:

    Valerie says: 16 October, 2018 at 9:29 pm

    In case you missed it.

    DEFRA announces an independent review of how farmers are allocated funding.

    This will be interesting, in a time when no EU funding coming in, and Brexit is dragging the economy into the toilet.

    Not sure if it is related but I recall reading that farming funding was going to be moved from subsidy to land management. No doubt that ‘land management’ would involve the big estates with their grouse shooting and other activities.

    Also, it was in the news that Five families control a third of Scottish fishing families.

    If it is true about how farming funds is going, it is looking like exit of EU is going to benefit corporates and wealthy individuals immensely to the detriment of the ordinary person on the street as well as the small business people.

  54. Collie says:

    A hard border in Ireland will speed up the process of Unifying the whole Island.

  55. Liz g says:

    Alba 46 @ 9.32
    I don’t necessarily disagree with you either Alba 46..
    But if not here… where?
    If AUOB open up lines of communication I’ll be more than happy to put in my tuppance worth.
    We are all relatively open and honest about what we think on Wings and it’s been one of this sites greatest strengths.
    Despite the British Nationalist Media’s best efforts.
    A model, I would have said, to be imitated by AUOB, a model we can all get behind.
    And as Wings has demonstrated that’s how the MSM can’t touch it..

  56. Liz g says:

    PacMan @ 9.43
    Dose that also mean that Land Management will be controlled from Westminster?
    Or would be…. if we’re still in the Union..LOL..

  57. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s some Critical and Theoretical perspectives on Brexit.

    Theory and Brexit: can theoretical approaches help us understand Brexit?

    Brexit is the defining issue of British politics. Not an hour goes by without the emergence of some new speech, gossip, debate, statement or policy proposal. Anyone seeking to understand Brexit can face an overwhelming challenge. Brexit is, therefore, a topic in urgent need of theoretical analysis. We need to find a way to sift through all the developments in order to focus on those that are the most important. This is where theory plays an important and necessary role….

    A Theory of Brexit?

    The aim here has not been to create a theory of Brexit, or to argue that only one of the above theoretical approaches is appropriate to understanding it or, if you wish to try to use theory to give pointers, where Brexit might go. The study of Britain’s international relations, as with so many states, has often drawn heavily on realist approaches. In the case of Brexit such theories will serve as a way of highlighting how important economic and security interests can be in explaining the behaviour of a state such as the UK, the member states of the EU, and the remaining EU as a single actor. But this should not lead us to overlook the importance of bureaucratic politics for a process that is already complex and looks set to become more so. More importantly, the place of ideas on either side – and the likely clash over them – mean constructivist approaches will need to be used if we ever hope to explain how the UK and the EU handled Brexit.

    The Game Theory of Brexit

    Critical Theory of the Contemporary: Brexit, Immigration, and Populism

  58. Iain says:

    We had better get ready for events to take charge on the 29th of March to take charge.
    The pound sterling is sure to plummet at the news of a no deal Brexit.
    Investor confidence is going to be rocked by all the major industry announcing that they are leaving the uk.
    Then again we will be free of foreign people.
    Or then again will we?

  59. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    The problem is, once you get a panel, a board, and loads of discussions with loads of conflicting viewpoints, the first march would be hoped to take place in 2020, not already happened.

  60. Collie says:

    The whole of the EU are united in one thing,,they can’t wait to see the back of the detested English.

    The same feelings are held by most right thinking Scots.

  61. harry mcaye says:

    Those advocating the opposing sides in the AUOB case talk it out, did you read Jason McCann’s article? He’s had a very nasty message already from one of them. Another person who had dealings with them called them “gangsters”. Another mentions a nasty phone call, “drug fuelled” he said, that his wife got at 2am! Does that sound like the sort of people who will be open to a polite discussion? The organisers may well be genuinely passionate about independence but nasty, violent people can vote Yes too.

  62. Dr Jim says:

    I turn up for the marches and am happy to do so but if anyone by design or action places me in the position of doing something illegal for their own ends I’ll be damn quick in reporting that or those persons who could bring the party I belong to into disrepute because if there are any wrong doings it’ll be the SNP on the front pages bearing the brunt of the Yoon media garbage not some petty wee gangster clowns in Tee shirts with leadership complexes

    When I was younger I would have dealt with this quite another way, so AUOB take this under advisement if you con 100,000 people quite a few of those people could end up tearing you a new one

  63. CameronB Brodie says:

    And here are some more critical and bio-ethical views.

    Brexit and English utilitarianism

    “What does Brexit mean for bioethics?” is our lead story today. Given that the Leavers were not expected to win and that the pundits have widely different views of the future of the politics and economies of the UK and the EU, it is unwise to be dogmatic on the issue.

    However, the question highlights the importance of Britain in the world of bioethics. Britain is the home of utilitarianism, which is the dominant philosophy in bioethical discourse at the moment. The medical and scientific establishment is dominated by a utilitarian mindset which has set the agenda for debates on embryo research, stem cell research and assisted dying around the world. As one cynical writer commented, “when it comes to bioethics, Europe might be better off without Britain”.

    There is something in this. Although I am handicapped by a big language barrier, my impression is that from Norway to Italy there is much more depth and diversity in bioethical discourse across the Channel. The Greens and the Christian Churches are much more influential, to say nothing of Continental philosophy, which despises utilitarianism as vacuous and naïve. If England (the pundits all agree that Scotland will secede) loses its biomedical industry to the EU, perhaps utilitarian bioethics will lose some of its funding and its influence. That would be no bad thing, I think….

    What does Brexit mean for equality and human rights in the UK?

    How will our future relationship with the EU shape the NHS?

  64. Ghillie says:

    Sarah @ 8.46 pm Well said.

    The AUOB marches are amazing and to continue usefully that organisation needs to have integrity and to be honest in its dealings all round.

    Yes, the Independence Movement should be squeaky clean.

    Lies do not serve anyone well.

    Maybe AUOB just need to do a bit of self-monitoring and consider a change in organisers. I am sure there are many talented folk ready, willing and able to take over the reigns =)

    Thanks to those who are bringing this into the light.

  65. Iain says:

    The great thing for the cause of Scottish indepence, is the huge rise of English nationism.
    Without this our task of gaining Scottish freedom would be a lot harder.
    We still have a lot to do, but the tide has turned south of the border.
    Most brexters would ditch the uk if England could successfully Brexit.
    Let’s help them.

  66. Collie says:

    Kinda losing the plot here.

    Our fight is with the detested English and their Establishment,,, Not the guys who organized a Yes March,,,the largest Yes March ever organised by the way.

    It is spoiling any good memories we had of the March.

    Personal grievances with a few individuals should be taken up with them and not with the majority of Wings contributors,,who haven’t a clue what your grievances are and probably don’t give a shit about.

  67. ronnie anderson says:

    Thanks Valerie/ liz g .

    Petra things have stunk for a long time within Auob & if we Independenistas didn’t expose their shortcomings they would be exposed by the Unionist media the Ego’s of Auob were dependent on people holding their weesht to protect Independence Grassroots movement ( they were well warned they couldn’t get away with their abuse of long time hard working Independence supporters ( excluding myself ) , people like John Mellon/Donald Anderson ( supped their portage in Barlinnie before those clowns were even born .

    To the rest of the commenters

    Of the Many many people who tried to have a civil conversation with Singh/Mackay/Kelly/Cellini/McNanmara & the hingers oan READ the piece by Jason & understand there is no civil communication. I ask You’s is Mackay’s abusive e mail to a 73 yr old man except able to us grassrooters ( John Alba Mellon ) one of the Many I don’t think so .

    There is more shite to come ( and not from John Mellons sheets ) I may add . Auob have made their beds and lied in them & expect us to support them THIS INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENT DOESN’T NEED ARSEHOLE LEADERSHIP but if You’s people that think you’s can communicate with Egotists be my guest ?s about bucket collections will certainly result in vile abuse .

  68. yesindyref2 says:

    Mmm, capitalise on any perceived split, take a side to shut some people up, and turn it into an anti-English fest to try to discredit the whole forum.

  69. Ken500 says:

    Someone called Arlene Foster. ‘A bunny broiler from Belfast’

  70. Ghillie says:

    Ronnie Anderson,

    Yes, this Independence Movement has always acted with integrity and honesty – and that is a great strength =)

    We need to be constantly aware of what is going on close to the movement and keep things clean and fair.

    Casting light on all aspects, being open and transparent in all our actions should not cause apprehension.

    THAT is how we move towards the Scotland we all hope for.

  71. yesindyref2 says:

    Why not set up a twitter hashtag #AUOBstink or whatever you do on twitter, and then anyone who wants to join in, goes there? AUOB could be blocked to keep it one-sided.

  72. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 9.57
    Have ye no been listening?
    One half of the original group who organised the fist marches have been shut out..
    The first marches went ahead just fine,a bit of tweeking needed sure…. but not the nonsense that went on in Edinburgh!
    The numbers alone turning up means you can’t play with people and see what happens….that’s bordering on criminal!
    If Yes are going to turn out and march,then we deserve proper organisation….its not as if we don’t have people who could do it!

  73. Breeks says:

    I’m not commenting about any specific conduct by any particular person, but I would point out that Scotland was led onto the Bannockburn field of battle by a man suspected of murder and excommunicated by the Catholic Church.

    Furthermore, it was this precise excommunication and the edict issued against all Scots by the Pope which directly led to the Declaration of Arbroath and our unique and unprecedented popular sovereignty which might yet save the day for Scotland 700 years after it was written.

    I don’t doubt there were many good people in 13th and 14th Century genuinely perturbed by Robert the Bruce’s suitability as a monarch, but sometimes these reservations need to fall on deaf ears.

    Just get us over the line, get our Nation back on its feet, and then we can be as draconian or forgiving as we like – once we are safe in Sovereign liberty.

  74. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 10.32
    Aye he might very well have Breeks
    But he didnay take thousands of our elderly, our Young and our disabled with him.

  75. harry mcaye says:

    Collie – Your “detested English” shite is fooling no one. Need to try harder.

  76. yesindyref2 says:

    @Liz g
    Yeah, read it all, and I’ve seen stuff about it for longer than just recently, way back, including btl comments in other pplaces, plus spending a couple of hours trawling through a fair few timelines, including timeline links within timelines. What I see is one-sided, or third party, plus contradictions. In other words, something that is best left to those that know and are directly involved themselves to sort out AMONGST THEMSELVES without dragging in one-sided support and more splits in a forum that is NOT directly involved. The abuse is not one-sided.

  77. CameronB Brodie says:

    Were you maybe getting a bit carried away with yourself, re. who our opponent is?

  78. Chick McGregor says:

    In my long experience of such things, the narcissistic glory seekers from all political directions claw their way to the top, despite the best efforts of we centrist pragmatists, then when one side wins and the other side leaves the game’s a bogey and the centre ground leaves as well.

    It is, sadly, human nature and that is the main reason why the SNP politicos do not have the time they think they have to act.

  79. Simon Curran says:

    Our fight is not against the English it is against England and an unequal and abusive union. It is also with those Scots who are the modern parcel of rogues and would sell Scotland’s hopes and dreams for Westminsters gold.

  80. Tom Kane says:

    Chris… You have cheered up a particularly brutal week… And brought a waft of the weekend to Wednesday… What a star and what a brilliant skewering of a couple of slippery fish…

    Fab fab fab

  81. Capella says:

    I enjoyed the three marches I was able to attend – Glasgow, Bannockburn and Edinburgh. Fortunately, I had no idea there were issues about the leadership.

    Perhaps it is inevitable. We have been here before with Hope Over Fear and the great falling out with Tommy Sheridan. Perhaps successful anti-Establishment movements are doomed to infiltration by spooks and agents provocateurs.

    The marching season is over for now. I hope these disputes are resolved over the next few weeks and that whatever follows is inspiring and successful. Maybe some town-hall-meeting events would be better for spreading the word and encouraging people to engage.

  82. ronnie anderson says:

    Yesindyref2 When crowdfunders for Auob are posted on Wings Wingers are entitled to know the characters they are being asked to support .

  83. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    yesindyref2 at 8.28

    Thank you.

  84. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 10.38
    Well then???
    If we don’t talk about it and exchange information..
    Then how are we to know the truth of it?
    There’s nobody stopping anyone with a different point of view posting here…. (The Rev excepeted obviously)
    Nobody for example sayin go away and just Tweet…oh wait…
    That comment was beneath you Yesindyref2,as someone who has taken their own fair share of shit…not a good look man!

  85. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill
    No worries 🙂

    It’s all about the Independence, Independence, Independence.

    And when we get that, the first hill I’ll be back to is Ben Lui on a clear day.

    It’s possible I’ll have to build up to it though …

  86. Liz g says:

    Capella @ 10.55
    Well said…
    That’s exactly how I feel..
    There are clearly issues and we have the Winter break to sort it out.
    There’s lot’s of people through out the Yes movement who could pitch in and improve things.
    But it has to start with open communication!

  87. yesindyref2 says:

    @ronnie anderson
    Nobody posted a link to their fundraiser on THIS thread.

    @Liz g
    Yes, but do we really want this forum to be all about AUOB, maybe invite them along to give their side, forget all the other things happening with Indy? Things which might actually get us a YES vote next March – 2 months before the next planned AUOB march? Nothing to stop motivated people setting up their own organisation to organise the next March, apart from the hard work, time and inevitable personal spending involved in organising anything like that.

    Sorry folks, I’m out (on this thread), as they say on Dragon’s Den.

  88. Liz g says:

    Yesindyref2 @ 11.19
    Oh I’d have said we’re all more than capable of mulitiple disscussions here on Wings!
    I’ve even seen recipes…
    So it has and will be not the only thing discussed, but rather one of many.
    So right back at ye my friend
    Do you want it to be the only topic we cannot discuss?
    Having never seen Dragons Den I’m assuming you are having an early night!
    So have a good and peaceful one!!

  89. Blairtawheelie says:

    What finely drawn characters. Thank you Chris. Thanks for not waiting til Saturday. You have them captured right there. Let’s be rid of them.

  90. Hamish100 says:

    Collie dug is trying to mix it. I’m pro Scottish Independence not anti other nations.

    RE the marches in the future maybe someone can arbitrate (old Scottish convention style) to resolve any differences. For those with the big ego’s away and play wi someone else.

  91. Colin Alexander says:

    Re AUOB

    There has been a vacuum waiting to be filled since the SNP has all but turned it’s back on leading the fight for independence since 2014.

    The commitment and hunger for indy is there, as the attendances at these marches prove. If we win independence, it increasingly feels like that it will be despite the SNP rather than because of the SNP.

    As for Ronnie Anderson, he might be the nicest guy around but, on Wings, he and his Wings clique have also been quick to hand out vile abuse. So, accusations of AUOB bullying him seems a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. No that that justifies abuse of others; it shouldnae happen at all.

    As for lies and manipulation, the SNP have been doing it for years. Just the same as Labour and the Tories and LibDems.

    As far as I’m concerned the SNP can also be lying b******s but, they’re our lying b’s.

    It’s fairy tale politics to believe the SNP, Scot Govt and all indy people are all saints (or all evil) and all unionists are either all evil or all good.

    I believe independence is best for Scotland. When the SNP say that I agree with them. When AUOB or Tommy Sheridan say it, I’ll agree with them. When Ronnie Anderson says it, I’ll agree with him.

    If you think it’s bad in the indy movement, just listen to the daggers being sharpened for big Treeza’s back by her “friends” in the Tory Party. And Jeremy Corbyn’s back must be like a porcupine by now thanks to his “friends” in Labour.

    But as for indy, it’s time for the SNP to take the lead. Not necessarily call indyref now, but at least provide leadership and direction promoting indy BEFORE any indyref or else step aside altogether and the SNP can stick to being the UK Govt administrators of devolution.

  92. ronnie anderson says:

    Liz g pity Yesindyref2 hiz went tae bed I was just about to ask him about the £5725 bucket collection at Edinburgh , the least amount of monies collected from the largest gathering 100.000 of people , now who’s kidding who lol.

    Anyhows liz time fur the switch aff sees U the morra .G/Nite.

  93. Liz g says:

    Ronnie Anderson @ 11.47
    Night Ronnie
    Take care of you x

  94. Dr Jim says:

    Just for you Indyref2

    Take 4 pork sausages whole, 2 medium carrots chopped small, 1 large onion diced, 1 tablespoon of Bisto gravy granules, 1 teaspoon brown sauce, black pepper, no need for salt, cover with water, not too much, then simmer lid on for a very long time (maybe 1xHalf hours) moving occasionally to prevent sticking, you may need a sprinkle of water from time to time just to keep covered but if you’ve a good lid the steam is usually enough and you don’t lose much, then serve with big boiled tatties as a lovely Scottish dinner for two

    Keep the brown sauce handy for the tatties and with a glass of Guinness with a spot of Blackcurrent cordial in it life’s a joy

  95. Collie says:

    And I do mean the detested English and their Establishment.

    I am fed up pussy footing about and being all PC.

    The majority of the English nation take for clowns. They think we are a shower of subsidy junkies.

    And that is a fact.

    Absolutely fed up to the back teeth listening to the patronising bastards.

    Independence cant come quickly enough.

  96. CameronB Brodie says:

    Colin Alexander
    Were you not paying attention in 2014, we lost. The SNP is in government, so is responsible to the whole of the electorate. I don’t think you really understand democracy.

  97. CameronB Brodie says:

    You have one chance to reconsider your choice of words.

  98. Capella says:

    @ Liz g – I don’t want to get into an argument about something I know nothing about so I’m sticking with what I do know:

    1 the marches were great
    2 independence is within sight
    3 ronnie anderson’s a star

    Nite all.

  99. Golfnut says:

    @Dr Jim.

    Hmmm, stewed sausage, oh yes. Try it with square as an alternative.

  100. Phronesis says:

    A formula for loosening the grip of corporate interference in government,& democracy.For the common good ;
    1.Remove corporations from public health and trade policy decisions
    2.Protect science from corporate manipulation and conflicts of interest
    3.Revitalize public sector in food, medicines and transportation to provide an alternative to corporate control
    4.Protect democracy from corporate interference
    5.Challenge the view that no other world is possible

    The US is a lost cause:

    ‘Lobbyists, including officials from those business groups, say they’re pursuing the usual approaches including meeting with congressional and agency officials, but Trump has shown he’s willing to ignore Congress and even his own staff to make trade decisions. That’s left lobbyists trying to air commercials on Fox News when they think Trump might be watching and other ways to reach him directly’

    UKOK remains clueless;

    ‘We do not yet know what the UK’s trade relationship will be with the EU after the UK leaves, including in relation to procurement’

    Not a criminal’s rap sheet but the chronology of world leader’s wealth acquisition.

    ‘Much of this money came to Mr. Trump because he helped his parents dodge taxes. He and his siblings set up a sham corporation to disguise millions of dollars in gifts from their parents… Records indicate that Mr. Trump helped his father take improper tax deductions worth millions more. He also helped formulate a strategy to undervalue his parents’ real estate holdings by hundreds of millions of dollars on tax returns…the Trumps appeared to have done more than exploit legal loopholes. They said the conduct described here represented a pattern of deception and obfuscation’

  101. Collie says:

    After Brexit the English nation will become one of the poorest countries in Europe,,and it couldn’t have happened to a nicer shower of self centered patronising bastards.


  102. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dr Jim
    Delicious! Close to the sausage casserole my wife makes. Nearly finished the backlog of jobs after the season and my wife’s a great cook, but November I’ll be cooking my stovies for us, and my shoarmas with individual pots of garlic sauce and chilli sauce as you get in Amsterdam (well, Holland).

    Maybe I should point out I have nothing to do with AUOB in fact I belong to no organisation or party, I’m a freewheeling rooting tooting grassrooter.

    Anyway, I might do a bit of website work before pit time, allowing people to put foreign characters in. Having an increase in orders from Norway, wonder if they’re silently supporting Scotland in our plight, with their business. We’d never show up on export statistics, it’s by Royal Mail (the occasional courier). It’s easy enough for formfillers for German characters, and French can do without the accents, but Norweigan characters are a nightmare for them to describe, and for us to write on address labels.

    On the other hand, time for a cuppa …

  103. CameronB Brodie says:

    The longstanding lack of political agency has caused significant damage to the Scottish psyche. Emotional maturity is required when involved in conflict and ideological disputes, particularly of the cultural variety. Intolerance towards Others is what has provided this golden moment for our movement, let’s not muck it up at the final hurdle.

    Political Correctness—Between Fiction and
    Social Reality

    Nowadays political correctness (PC) is blamed by its opponents because of a failed model of multiculturalism, an influx of migrants and the threat of terrorist acts. Obviously, a definition of tolerance given by UNESCO in 1995 has lost its meaning. In order to argue a possibility of a global ethos based on new understandings of PC, the authors refer to contemporary achievements of semiotics, hermeneutics and philosophical anthropology. We use a critical method developed in the hermeneutical tradition of P. Ricoeur, J. Kristeva, Tz. Todorov and others.

    Criticism is directed at (1) paradoxes of postmodern philosophical attempts for justification the idea of political correctness; (2) the way of introducing new terminology, as on a language level it leads, not to inclusion, but to exclusion, of disadvantaged people because as E. Benveniste states, the third person is rather the non-person. The conclusion is that politically correct speech should be grounded on a basis which takes into account the three persons of verb conjugation. Similar philosophical and ethical ideas can be found in works of J. Kristeva, Tz. Todorov, P. Ricoeur. An example is given for how these ideas can be implemented in the fields of film and art. This is one of the possible ways of overcoming the exclusion of disadvantaged people who are only named in politically correct terms, and not as participants, in social and political dialogue.

    multiculturalism; terrorism; political correctness; semiotics; hermeneutics; ethics; censorship; art

    Political Intolerance in the Context of Democratic Theory

    Abstract and Keywords

    This article first provides an overview of democratic theory in order to provide a better understanding of the meaning of political intolerance. The concept of tolerance is clearly explained to avoid any confusion with other terms such as permissiveness. The article identifies the role of tolerance in democratic theory and attempts to determine why some citizens are more tolerant than others. It also pinpoints the consequences of mass political intolerance.

    Keywords: democratic theory, political intolerance, role of tolerance, consequences, mass political intolerance

    Tolerance, Acceptance, Understanding

    Tolerance, acceptance, and understanding differ in everyday life and in research

    Tolerance is a virtue. It is a version of the golden rule in that, insofar as we want others to treat us decently, we need to treat them decently as well. It is also a pragmatic formula for the functioning of society, as we can see in the omnipresent wars between different religions, political ideologies, nationalities, ethnic groups, or other us-versus-them divisions. It is a basis for the First Amendment protections that enabled the United States to avoid the religious strife that plagued Europe for centuries. (And it is a reason to be skeptical of slogans such as “Zero Tolerance.”)

    Acceptance goes a step beyond tolerance. If a sign of tolerance is a feeling of “I can live with X (behavior, religion, race, culture, etc.)” acceptance moves beyond that in the direction of “X is OK.” You can tolerate something without accepting it, but you cannot accept something without tolerating it. For example, when a son or daughter tells a parent about an unwelcome career choice, marital partner, or sexual identity, he or she wants that information not just to be tolerated, but to be accepted.

  104. Thepnr says:

    Pop your head in to Wings and find out all hell has broken out over AUOB and the marches.

    I’m certain of two things though the first is that the marches were a great success in raising the profile of the Independence movement and the second is that I’m sure everyone who attended them had a great day. I went to four and loved every one.

    Simply then for that reason I’d love to see them continue in the future and the only people who would be happy if the didn’t would be the enemies of Independence. A dream of theirs I’m sure.

    Personally I’m against centralising any of this stuff, I don’t believe it is necessary. Though I do of course realise that dates ect have to be organised to avoid clashes, but poeple aren’t daft and that isn’t difficult. For me that just needs the already existing Yes movement to share information in a better way right across Scotland.

    I can’t speak for anywhere else except Dundee & Angus since I know the area. In Angus we have Yes hubs/cafes in the towns of Arbroath, Brechin, Carnoustie, Forfar, Kirriemuir and Montrose. Forgive me if I’ve missed any out.

    If there is to be a march organised in Angus in 2019, in anyone of their towns then I’m sure between all the hubs there could be enough people willing to discuss routes, stewarding ect with Angus council and the police in their local as required. The best people to choose the route, the town and the date are the local people. Can’t be much doubt there I would have thought.

    All they need is the willingness to take this on as they definitely have the ability. Nationwide the only organisation required as I see it is to make sure dates don’t clash and there is plenty of space between them giving people the opportunity to attend more than one.

    I would argue, let the locals organise any marches, let them publicise it and if there is any money to be raised from it, then it goes straight into their kitty to help them run the cafes and the shops and to keep doing what the volunteers are doing everyday right now.

    Giving people who are still strangers to Yes a place where they can find out more about Independence over a cup of tea and a chat. These little places all over Scotland are the grassroots greatest asset and they will step up to the plate.

  105. Thepnr says:

    Getting back to the immediate future, just thought I’d mention that it wouldn’t surprise me if the EU tell the UK that there will be no emergency summit in November as officiant progress hasn’t been made.

    They have failed to finalise the withdrawal agreement as was requested by today and have been told that the economic part of the UK plans for a future framework will not work, yet still they have their fingers stuck in their ears.

    They are living in cloud cuckoo land, May and her useless cabinet are playing with fire but the problem is, it will be us that get burnt when it all falls apart.

  106. Thepnr says:

    sufficient progress 🙂

  107. Daisy Walker says:

    AUOB – well said that man,the one who said all the marches were all inspiring and great.

    I absolutely understand concerns, but I think – the chancers – much as they may try are out numbered.

    I won’t hear a word against Ronnie Anderson. I just know! my heart tells me. That’s final.

    Best wishes to all.

  108. Daisy Walker says:

    And another thing… Look to Gibralta.

    If, the whole thing rests on a deal about tax haven legislation…. if they can do a deal with Gibtalta – that bi passes the ECJ – they have their backdoor.

    It will mean the EU has capitulated and the deal (RE TAX HAVEN LEGISLATION ) will be done. We are very small potatoes then I’m afraid.

  109. Cactus says:

    Bonus round, thx Chris ~

    Misery demands company, I like the way that sounds, I’ve been trying to find the meaning, SO I can write it down.

    This Cairnstoon made a me think of this:

    At about 1min, check out the three queuing persons on the chair…
    (from left to right Witch Doctor May, Mundell and Davidson)

    Jump in the line:

    Welcome to the 17th of the October. 🙂

    Big political day today!

    Radio ON.

  110. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    If I didn’t exist, you’d have to invent me.

  111. Ken500 says:

    They organised a great March and get slagged for it. What a way for people to carry is just unbelievable. Then start a rammy on one of the only Independence websites. That is disgraced takevthe rammy somewhere else. Instead of giving ammunition to the opposition. Cutting off your nose to fight your face, Doing the unionists dirty work for them. How pathetic is that. All the complains are too pathetic for words. Petty squabbles. Some of the complainers would cause trouble in an empty,

    Tommy Sheridan has been fighting the establishment for ever. Fighting for Ibdependece since he was born. They tried to destroy him. Maybe he does have a quest for retribution. No wonder. The unionist Labour and Blair, Murdoch tried to destroy him because he was taking votes from them in Glasgow. If you want crooks and criminals try the Labour Mafia and the rest They have tried to destroy Scotland for years. Tommy Sheridan beat them. That is what they do not like.

    The unionists Parties are master criminals. Yet people on the Indy side are critising people who give time and effort to organise the best Indy Marches Scotland has ever seen. Even those who do not support Tommy Sheridan politics completely or totally agree with flags and marching. They recognise the effort put in which is,spectacular. Putting Scotland on the map. Internationally and otherwise, Amazing for some gifted amateurs, Not some pathetic heresy.

    Does anyone know the time and effort to organise these Marches. It will take months and also having to raise the funding, Some people could have their houses on the line. To suggest that people are doing it for the money is just disgraceful. They are using their time productively for the Independence Movement.

    The Greens are pathetic and could muck up the Indy cause. The most unpopular Party with the most unpopular policies. A pressure group. They join with the unionists to irrationally criticise the SNP at every opportunity. They could affect the outcome for support. Muck up everything. Just because they can, They do it all over the place. Costing £Millions/Billions. Wasting public money.

    They also criticise Rev Stu and Wings at every opportunity.

    Be aware who the opponents are. Stop attacking folk on the same side to bolstering others who are not.

    To suggest that people are organising Marches for money in a bucket is just ridiculous, Apart from people give freely. And why not. It is their choice. Tommy Sheridan could have taken his first class hinours degree and left for London S/E and made £Millions on the Stock market in the financial sector. He did not. He stayed and fought injustice. He could have been a ‘Loads of money banker’ quite easily. Instead he fought for the disaffected, poor and vulnerable. Got slatted for it. They tried to ruin him. Even people who do not completely agree with his politics recognise that fact.

    Alex Salmond could have taken his First class degree and made money in the financial sector and been a multimillionaire. Instead he stayed to fight for the country and the people. They have tried to attack the most irrational way. The low lives. He will not be defeated He is fit for them and has great amazing support for everything he has done for the NE/Scotland and the world. A completely honest man of great charisma. He gets things done. Alex and Co have transformed Scotland everywhere you look. No wonder the SNP are so popular supported by the member’s funding, So they can do the right thing.

    Roll on another IndyRef.which will be won, The Dream for so many will come true. The unionist liars will be out of the game forever. Scotland will finally be a more prosperous, more equal and fairer place where people will be happier. After the complete disaster of the Westminster wrecking ball of the economy for which Scotland never voted. The snakes and charlatans of self interest. The utter criminals occupying the cess pit of Westminster. Gone forever as Scotland regains it’s sovereignty for all time.

    Some people should look at the wider picture and just be quiet.

  112. Robert Louis says:

    Their is a very important piece of writing by former Tory prime minister John Major (from a speech he gave yesterday) I have just read in the Guardian.

    I want to quote just a small section (and as I am quoting I have also given the full link). John Major wrote of Brexit;

    “…there is no doubt in my own mind that our decision is a colossal misjudgment that will diminish both the UK and the EU. It will damage our national and personal wealth, and may seriously hamper our future security. It may even, over time, break up our United Kingdom. It will most definitely limit the prospects of our young.

    And – once this becomes clear – I believe those who promised what will never be delivered will have much to answer for. They persuaded a deceived population to vote to be weaker and poorer. That will never be forgotten – nor forgiven.”

    I keep hoping that the people of England will wake up to this folly. When a former Tory Prime minister is saying this about brexit, then surely folk need to stop drinking the freaking kool aid, sniff the coffee and wake up.

    Hopefully Scotland can escape the worst of it via independence, but brexit will utterly destroy England, economically and socially.


  113. Ken500 says:

    @ Yesindyref2

    What do you export? In between collecting recipes for casseroles. Sounds good but not for veggies or vegans. it would have to be spicy bean. Or organic chilli with quorn. Quite tasty and easy to cook. It takes less time and costs less. Herbs and spices can spice up things.without salt. Nothing beats a good soup in this weather. Cheap and easy. Organic scrambled eggs. Grow your own if possible, What a crop of veggies and fruit has been because of the hotter summer weather. Plentiful harvest to reap. You reap what you sow. Plenty to scavenge or give away.

    Why don’t they make writing bigger on jars etc for elderly folk with poorer eyesight. They often struggle opening cans or reading labels. So they can reside at home and cook. They have to have extra help when they could manage.

    One elderly person who required residential care. Spotted the meals on wheels delivery man and refused the accomodation. They did not like meals on wheels, preferred to make their own but were struggling health wise.

  114. Petra says:

    Professor John Robertson:


    Prince Harry’s message to an Australian crowd, lol … “We’re all in it together.” Not for much longer, Harry.


    Some very interesting comments on here about AUOB with a number of people going from seeking the truth and transparency from Westminster and the MSM to wanting to cover up lies and deceit (and maybe worse still) from key people in the independence movement. What happened to individuals wanting Scotland to be different, start as we mean to go on etc?

    Yes the marches have been invigorating but at what price when the sh*t hits the fan? Who’ll get blamed for that? Nicola Sturgeon no doubt and the SNP. And could it ultimately lose us support? My main gripe relates to AUOB lying to what turned out to be around 100,000 people, conning people, about Police Scotland overturning the HES decision. Dangerous on any number of counts and doesn’t exactly generate any faith or trust in these particular people for the future. If they want to cling onto their claim to fame they should clean up their act: clean up their site and start publishing up to date information, minutes of meetings and their accounts. For example I’d like to know how my donation has been spent. Not exactly too much (for us) to ask for, is it?

  115. Nana says:

    Originally set to be introduced between 2044 & 2046, government SP increase to 68 will now take place 7 years earlier between 2037 and 2039. People born between 6 April 1970 & 5 April 1978, currently aged between 40 & 48, will be affected.

  116. Nana says:

    In light of the difficult Brexit negotiations, the EU Commission has changed its hard position and brought an extension of the transitional period into play. This would allow Britain to stay in the EU’s single market and customs union for longer than previously envisaged.
    Use translator

    Barnier sees December ‘ultimate deadline’ for Brexit deal: source

    Wells Fargo to shift EU hub to Paris in Brexit plan

    Brexit: Irish foreign minister Coveney rejects ‘dangerous’ proposal on deferring Irish backstop plan

  117. INDEPENDENT says:

    Morning all, caught the end of a GMS interview this morning at 6-10am aprox.

    The German spokesperson ripped GR a new one. told him that BREXIT was not the biggest thing for most of the 27 other countries and when GR tried to present Mrs Merkel as weakened. The guy told him virtually that the UK’s attempts to undermine the EU were doomed to failure.
    Cue abrupt end of conversation!!!!
    I’ll bet its not replayed later.
    So if anybody else is clever enough to add a link so that others can hear it I would much appreciate it.
    A bit to modern and techy for me!

  118. Hamish100 says:

    Can we hope collie will learn not to be offensive online after yesterdays carry-on? Probably not.

    These guys appear from nowhere trying to entice others to respond in kind. I tend to believe some notables on here who think that he/she? are unionist trollers.

    In some respects their venom –“..not putting up with this anymore.” “no more PC” type rhetoric is rather quaint. They are on the edge!! – so what do they do? They go on a pro-independence web page spouting their nonsense. Sad really.

    Make Peace Not war and vote for Independence not Brexit.

    Collie and co. away back to your unionists masters and tell them its not working.

  119. Macart says:

    Nana you’re a diamond. 🙂

    Went out last night and from the looks of the thread? Fairly glad I did.

    Good crop this morn and a good catch on the Mhairi Black vid yesterday. New mug filled and off we go. 🙂

  120. Ghillie says:

    Ken 500 your passion is huge and well placed =)

    Cameron B, VERY useful links! Thanks =)

    Cactus =) This is indeed an important day. What will it bring?

    What a breath of fresh air if Teressa listened to Nicola and acted on the First Minister’s advice.

    Not likely.

  121. Nana says:

    Morning Macart
    Losing my sparkle and somewhat rough around the edges 🙂

    I have to go out this morning so here’s a few more links for later.

    The EU might have made a grave mistake with the Irish ‘backstop’

    like father, like son

    Check here for developments throughout the day

  122. Macart says:

    The Irish Times, Canary and Reuters links are standout Nana.

    I’m no fan of John Major, but he’s not wrong. I’d go further tbh. Those who know Brexit to be a disaster unfolding in Scotland, but insist that sticking with the institution and practices which brought it about is a good thing because….reasons and we hate Nicola?

    They might want to consider Mr Major’s view on the subject. When an austerity weakened population that’s already been conned once, is brought to its knees in abject penury and misery through yet another con, what do you think their reaction will be?

  123. Petra says:

    Thanks for the links Nana.


    I just noticed a snippet in yesterday’s S*n as follows, “Meanwhile Mrs May and Ms Sturgeon held an unscheduled 25 minute summit last night (15th) in the PM’s Commons Office. The Nat (eh?) tweeted she “appreciated her update”, adding: “There are some fundamental differences still to be resolved.”




  124. Robert Peffers says:

    Breaking news: 27 minutes ago:-

  125. Ghillie says:

    Nana =) THANK YOU!!!

    Hamish 100, well said =)

  126. Collie says:

    Hamish 100

    What a wanker.

  127. Ottomanboi says:

    Independence may not kill ‘the cringe’ immediately, it runs deep in the culture, but it will cut off its sources of existential nourishment. A new régime for all.

  128. Nana says:

    Morning Ghillie 🙂

    Morning Petra, yes Nicola met with May on the 15th. I forgot to post the link yesterday

    Guardian investigation reveals how a small firm of wealth advisers built up a $3bn ‘golden passports’ industry and gained influence in the Caribbean
    Alexander Nix turns up again

    For anyone who hasn’t seen Ross Thomson’s latest attempts to play with the big boys

  129. Scott says:

    BBC Headline.

    Mundell ‘did not threaten Brexit resignation’

    My only question is why are we not allowed to comment on this story yet on this one.

    Sturgeon: ‘Time to compromise’ on Brexit at the moment we have 1256 comments with many nasty name calling of the FM but then again we all know the bias of the BBC.

  130. Collie says:

    Hamish 100

    As far as I can see there is only one person trying to disrupt this forum and that is the guy Ronnie Anderson.

    Let’s see you call him out big mouth.

    If you don’t like my posts then scroll on by.

    Or better still,,,take a hike dick.

  131. Collie says:

    Hamish 100

    Is Ronnie Anderson a Unionist?

    Or is it just posters who don’t pass the Hamish 100 test?

    Are you the Wings gate keeper?

  132. Clootie says:

    Scotland and the Tories:
    Yes the Torie are offensive given their support for social division and the wealth gap. They do have a seemingly bottomless pit of incompetent candidates for political office. They are comfortable in the company of religious bigots. They have little (if any) compassion for those in need of support.They do not respect the right of self determination to be expressed…….yet they still achieve 20 percent of the vote?

    In recent elections the Tory vote increased as the Labour vote declined….that astounds me a great deal. It appears that many Scottish Labour voters would prefer to give support to the Tories than risk the SNP winning seats. Labour voters supporting candidates who have the opposite values to their own core beliefs to stop a candidate who probably shares most of them???

    We still have a way to travel!

  133. One_Scot says:

    Top tip, anyone not happy with the nonsense on here, either ignore or report.

  134. Robert Louis says:

    Meanwhile, the media is obsessed with some ‘benefit scrounging’ bloke called Harry, who it seems has just taken his wife off on holiday to Australia, first class all the way, and funded by taxpayers.

  135. Clootie says:

    Ronnie Anderson a Unionist….that made me smile. if he is then even Nicola should come under suspicion:-)

  136. Luigi says:

    Clootie says:

    17 October, 2018 at 8:58 am

    It appears that many Scottish Labour voters would prefer to give support to the Tories than risk the SNP winning seats.

    Well, in 2017 they were strongly encouraged to do this by their own elected representatives, I believe.

    Must be pretty shit being a BritNat these days. The Blue Rinse ones will be living the dream (tin hats on, no surrender etc), but the red tory ones must be writhing in agony as their world view implodes. People like old Dunc H seem to be suffering complete breakdowns. My heart bleeds. 🙂

  137. Sharny Dubs says:

    Love it Mr C!!!

    Any truth in the rumor that Philip May has been arrested?
    Caught him in bed with his wife.
    Charge is having an offensive person on his weapon

  138. Ian McCubbin says:

    I think they should go on stage and tour.
    Would be a great Comedy pathos act

  139. Brent Crude (Scottish oil type) been over $70 a barrel for more than 6 months,

    been over $80 for last month hitting high of $86,

    break even price is $25 a barrel after that it is all profit,

    say 500,000 barrels a year X 70pb minus 25bep = $23.4 billion pure profit.

  140. Chick McGregor says:

    To paraphrase a once famous advertising slogan “The past is Orange”.

    The brand which gave rise to that slogan is now in its final death throes in the hands of those nasty Europeans, Deutsche Telekom, which one might consider particularly ironic.

  141. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Robert Louis @ 8.59am

    Now, now, to be fair to this Government, Harry boy is one former squaddie who appears to be doing well after he left the Army.

  142. stuart mctavish says:

    Breeks @ 10.32

    The pope at the time, clement V, was a subject of the King Edward I from his duchy of Aquitaine, of course he did as told.

    His excomunication of Bruce is probably one of the long forgotten reasons, if not THE principal reason, for Scotlands colourful religious history.

  143. INDEPENDENT says:

    Nana / Smallaxe or any other clever techy people can you link to the conversation I mentioned earlier.( Morning all, caught the end of a GMS interview this morning at 6-10am aprox.I posted at 7-48am). I think its one of the best put downs of an interviewer / BBC hack in ages. An absolute belter!

  144. Clootie says:


    They did a great job keeping the momentum going and a well needed relief valve for those of us who thought their head would explode.

    The politics of it all! What politics? I simply attended a march with a wide range of fellow Independence supporters. I know how much time and effort goes into the planning, stewarding and organisation of such an event.

    Well done AUOB. You stepped up when no one else did. They clue is in the name “All…”. I would compare it to Wings…if you don’t like it go start your own site!

    We have had people in the past (…and still have) who want to direct Wings.
    I may not agree with every organisation who gets something off the ground but I will support them for doing so instead of moaning about the lack of action.

  145. Capella says:

    @ INDEPENDENT – I had a look for the interview you mentioned so I could post a link but it is not available. Although GMS is 3 hrs long, the online version cuts out the first 2 hours. I can’t imagine why!

    Perhaps it will be restored later but I doubt it.

  146. Ken500 says:

    They are producing less Oil because of Tory high taxes. 40% since Jan 2016. 30% Corporation tax 10% supplementary. More before. When the price had fallen 75% it was being taxed at 62% Oil & Gas is still having to imported into parts of Britain. The south. The Tories shut down Oil & Gas production in 2010. The producers stopped drilling. The ConDems Osbourne/Alexander put the tax up 11%. (£2Bilion+). They put up the tax from 70% to 80%. The price a barrel was $120. When the price began to fall they did not reduce the tax enough.

    The Oil & Gas sector is like a furnace. Once it is shut down it take ages to rebuild it. The Westminster unionists have totally mismanaged the Scottish Oil section. People have died because of it. The have not enforced UK H&S Law. They are totally negligent. US fracked Gas is being imported into Grangemouth. There are opportunity for CSS in the North Sea. Scotland/UK has got major coal reserves. The Condems cut funds for the CCS project at Longannet in Fife. Cut funding for the CCS project at Peterhead. Although the companies are trying to fund it. There is no gas to frack it died out in the 1970’s.

    Solar investment has been cut. A tiidal barrage in Swansea £1Biilion has been stopped. Appalling. The Tories are spending £Billions on Hinkley Point which will be years out of date and a total waste of money. There are are much cheaper better methods. The last ones built in France (smaller) and Finland are still having problems and are years out of budget, time and funding. There was reconciliation going on for years between contractors and Gov about who should pay for it. The Tories banned wind turbines in the south. Cut investment in wind, wave and tidal. Two Tidal schemes were stopped. One at the Humber which would have cost £9Billion but much cheaper overall for output.

  147. INDEPENDENT says:

    Thanks Capella. Who’d have thought the Beeb would be so selective EH!!!

  148. galamcennalath says:

    There seems to be some realisation across the media that the divorce bill of ~£35billion will be payable after the UK leaves regardless of any ‘deal’ or ‘no deal’. The money is owed. It must be paid regardless.

    I suspect the idea that anyone might think differently was because the gutter press and even some of the dodgier politicians were suggesting the divorce payment bought something from the EU. Even, it could be withheld as a lever to a ‘better’ deal.

    Part of the overall sum was temporary single market status during transition, but most of it was commitments made as a full member.

    I think this latest confusion is IMPORTANT. It raises the possibility of ‘no deal minus’!

    Leaving with no deal might well mean some last minute emergency legislation to keep drugs flowing or planes flying. However, if the UK tries to leave and refuses to pay debts owing, it does raise the question of why the EU would act to smooth a no deal at all?

    It would mean acrimony and mistrust. If the UK wants a life after Brexit it must stop this idea of not honouring debts!

    A ‘no deal minus’ appears possible!

  149. Robert Peffers says:

    @Collie says: 17 October, 2018 at 12:34 am:

    ” … After Brexit the English nation will become one of the poorest countries in Europe,,and it couldn’t have happened to a nicer shower of self centered patronising bastards.

    Be aware that post is totally unacceptable to most wingers. In fact it is illegal. It could have you in court facing criminal charges.

    Besides which, the independence movement’s argument is not with the people of the Kingdom of England. It is with the Westminster Establishment of unionist political parties and these operate in Scotland and are elected to Scottish local councils, the Scottish Government, at Westminster and in the EU Parliament.

    The ordinary people of England, Wales and N. Ireland suffer the evil of Westminster just as much as do the people of Scotland. Take your racial hate out of Wings or be prepared for the consequences.

  150. Lenny Hartley says:

    Robert Peffers @ 1030 well said Robert.

  151. Ghillie says:

    Robert Peffers @ 10.30 am, perfectly said =)

  152. Bob Mack says:

    @Robert Peffers,

    We in Scotland woke up to the Tories long ago. Their support here is the hardcore Unionist. We must also recognise Robert that the Tories are only in power because there is an important element of the English population who vote for exactly what they offer. They are not blameless in that choice.

    Having been to England twice over the last year,it has very worrying indications of becoming extremely right wing. I had to endure conversations about let’s say “foreigners” who should be shipped out on the next boat. There were other indications about restricting the rights of certain groups.

    Never have I heard these people express anything like it before. They might well be brainwashed, but they most definitely believe these things.

    It is not just about the government, but also the people who for whatever reason allow those governments to keep being elected.

  153. Collie says:

    Robert Peffers


    The people of England think the world owes them a favour.

    They are the most self centred arrogant shower of bastards you are ever likely to come across.

    That is my personal opinion, and not even you can take that from me.

  154. Proud Cybernat says:

    Ditto Mr Peffers @10:30am.

  155. Ken500 says:

    Major, Blair, Hesletine and Clegg caused all this and Yes it going back to Thatcher rancid policies. That evil person who took all Scotland wealth spent it on London S/E. Illegal and secretly breaking every Law in the Land. Illegal wars breaking International Law. They all are lying charlatans. They are as responsible for the mess as anyone. They should be in jail. They fraudsters, crooks and liars. Every single one and the rest.

  156. Kangaroo says:

    Perhaps the time limited backstop could be “until such time as a Border poll confirms Irish unity”.

    Seems reasonable to me. What about the people with #NoEyelids?

  157. Robert Peffers says:

    @Cactus says: 17 October, 2018 at 2:17 am:

    ” … Misery demands company, I like the way that sounds, I’ve been trying to find the meaning“.

    Hi, Cactus. It’s a song title.

    It has various close titles, Misery needs company, Misery loves company and such like.

    Can’t remember all the various singers but:-

    Got a notion Johnny Cash did a version as did Dolly Parton.

  158. Bob Mack says:


    You have not met every person in England. I know many great English folk. Decent, to the core. I understand how you feel, but never never believe you know the mindset of a whole population, because you don’t.

    Many will be the way you think, but equally, many will be just the opposite.

  159. Glamaig says:

    R4 dude interviewing Simon Coveney this morning was appallingly rude, interrupting and shouting over him, for some reason quoting the opinions of Boris Johnson who is not even in the Cabinet.

    Imagine shouting down and arguing with the Foreign Minister of another country instead of respectfully listening and questioning. Sums up the arrogance of people who deep down havent realised the Empire is gone, and think other countries are inferior.

  160. galamcennalath says:

    The people of both Scotland and England have been subjected to decades, no centuries, of misinformation and propaganda. And in both nations the population has swallowed it to a greater or lesser extent at different times.

    In Scotland it has been specifically pro Union and as part of that has been attempts to replace Scottishness with ‘Britishness’ which inevitably means ‘Home County-ness’.

    In England it has been pro Establishment and part of that has been to foster ideas of entitlement and exceptionalism at every level. They are expected to believe their nation is special, but also those who rule it must also be special. A cult of heirachy and privilege has been fostered.

    At no point has everyone everywhere swallowed the subterfuge.

    What we are seeing are the scales falling from Scots’ eyes. The English too will begin to see through it all soon too.

  161. Bobp says:

    Bob mack, absolutely, i live down here and have met my share of right wing racist a***holes. I’ve also met decent good hearted people. Good and bad everywhere.

  162. CameronB Brodie says:

    “If I didn’t exist, you’d have to invent me.”

    Now why would anyone want to waste effort on something as pointless and negative as that? It who serve no positive purpose.

  163. CameronB Brodie says:

    INow why would anyone want to waste effort on something as pointless and negative as that? It who serves no positive purpose

  164. Ken500 says:

    A majority in the rest of the UK do not support Bexit. They were lied to by crooks in Westminster. Many have changed their minds. It was not the EU who caused the migration crisis it was US/UK. That bombed the Middle East to bits. Yet do not help survivors. It is the European countries who have to clear up the mess and the devastation,. Costing them £Billions.

    England is the second most densely pop country in Europe. It was Westminster centrist policies which caused that. They could have easily negotiated strategies within EU membership. Or stopped bombing the world to bits. They were warned. The banking crisis causing recession. Westminster unionist policies responsible for destroying the Scottish economy with total illegal ignorant mismanagement,

    Cameron decided to cause a recession and harm in the world to avoid one UKIP MP getting elected. A total imbecile. A Psycho bastard. Major called them bastards over EU issues. It was EU matters that brought Thatcher down. It will be EU issues that will take May and the Tories down. Santioning and starving people. Some people never learn.

  165. Collie says:

    I think people have grasped where I am coming from regarding England and Englishness.

    I am totally pissed-off about hearing of English sport, English feelings on Brexit, English this, English that on what is meant to be a National news service.

    The bastards have even hijacked the Radio, with every one of the BBC Radio stations centered around what is happening in fuckin England.

    So yes, I do have issues not just with the English Establishment but also with the vast majority of the English nation.

  166. CameronB Brodie says:

    Our movement has no place for racists scum! Are you listening RN?

    Is There a Fascist Impulse in All of Us?
    Insights from a Viktor Frankl biographer

    For observers of the current political climate in Western civilization, democracy appears to be in peril. From Putinism in Russia to the rise of right-wing mainstream parties throughout Central and Western Europe, and even to the good ole USA with the novelty of Trumpism, the fascist impulse seems pervasive. The comparison with interwar populist, nationalistic and xenophobic political parties is apt and many commentators have drawn a direct line between this phenomenon of demagogic populism and the pervasive fascist movements in the 1930s. This ubiquitous phenomenon has left me pondering: Is there a fascist impulse in all of us? And what happened to the consensus that Fascism died an ignoble death with Hitler’s suicide and Mussolini’s hanging?

  167. galamcennalath says:

    Talk of extending the transition period (assuming the UK gets one).

    More time to get future relationship sorted out – ‘Canada’, ‘Norway’, or more likely, continue the pursuit of the elusive cherry picked magic deal?

    Does anyone believe the Tories will clear their heads of nonsense and buckle down to agreeing something realistic? Time is irrelevant IMO. Reboot of brains is what’s needed.

  168. Dr Jim says:

    The world’s going to hell in a handbasket and it’s NOT the fault of Joe Public English fella or woman, this is happening all over the place and its cause is unpleasant people at the top and in the media guiding and driving this nasty right wing agenda

    America has Trump, we have the Tories, but we all have *The media* who either just for the sake of crap to report or agenda or nasty Nazis it doesn’t really matter which but it’s their fault for making people crazy full of hatred

    The Media deliberately mis report every single day and you can’t expect much of the population to NOT believe it, it’s what they think is their stability and they trust it, wrongly but they do

    It’s the people who are leading this hatred who are to blame, when nations are used to being led guided and directed the people find it unthinkable that their so called leaders are misleading them and then they become confused followed by anger then the people at the top take advantage of that anger and direct it at their opponents

    Adolph Hitler got away with it for long enough before he was found out but by then it was too late
    If Scotland doesn’t extract itself from this very quick smart we’re going to be stuck in a quagmire of vicious hatred and I fear very much worse

    Everybody must have seen the BTL comments sections by now which have become increasingly just open hatred for any view from any person who is not the commentor, and those commentators are almost always British Nationalists who haven’t the first clue what they’re talking about but they know that they sure as hell HATE

    A couple of years ago I would bet most of them wouldn’t have known a Brexit from a Hob Nob but they know they hate us Hob Nobs now coz we’re the different they were a couple of years ago, but now they’re enlightenend head cases

    Who enlightened them

  169. Glamaig says:

    Bob Mack says:
    17 October, 2018 at 11:02 am

    Never have I heard these people express anything like it before. They might well be brainwashed, but they most definitely believe these things.

    I think many people have always had those views (not just in England) but only now feel empowered to speak out. They feel there is a climate where they now have permission to express their views and find approval by doing so.

    Since the horrors of fascism in Europe we have had a culture of it being unacceptable to voice those opinions. That is slowly changing and it is extremely worrying that the lessons learned by the last generation are being forgotten.

    I hold the likes of Farage, the Tories, the UK newspapers and the BBC directly responsible for creating the climate which makes this possible. To my mind what they are doing is nothing less than evil.

  170. Collie says:

    Why not call a spade a spade

    The English think Scotland is a quaint backwater somewhere north of Carlisle.

    It is just up there somewhere.

    The English will tolerate the people of Scotland,,as long as they keep their mouths shut and toe the Unionist line.

  171. CameronB Brodie says:

    Collie, I think I know where you’re coming from but I’m afraid that’s the slippery slope to racist intolerance. Give me a bit and I’ll see if I can find something suitably wanky and intellectual on the subject.

  172. orri says:

    A border, customs or otherwise, within the UK will heighten the idea of the UK as not being an integral whole. However forcibly removing NI or Scotland from the EU will do so to.

    There may soon be marches in NI similar to those in Scotland for reunification. Which may get to a point where even the blindest SoS for Ireland can’t ignore the possibility that a referendum might win.

    Note though that there’s a ban on elections to Stormont so at least one avenue of publicity for SF has been closed off.

    Another possibility might be for SF to resign from their Westminster seats which would result in by-elections. At which point SF could tactically decline to stand in order that an anti-brexit party win those seats and counter the 10 DUP at Westminster.

  173. Proud Cybernat says:

    Why not call a spade a spade

    ‘Cause some spades are shovels.

  174. Cactus says:

    Good morning to you Ghillie, Robert Peffers and Wingers ye all!

    Here was my take on it (tweaked title.)

    It all starts at the beginning:

    Hey Daisy, hope ye like this song… 😉

  175. Bob Mack says:

    Considering that the vote total for what you would call extremist parties in the UK such as UKIP, DUP BNP, comes almost to the same total as achieved by the SNP at just over 900,000 votes, it shows there is a sizeable element in this country who are growing by the day.This is our danger.

    This is why we must be free of the Union. Inevitably when these extremists achieve power to control a country, there will be conflict with somebody. I don’t want another generation of young Scots thrown into useless wars.

    Anger ,like Collies doesn’t really help at all. The only thing he can do with his hate is hurt himself.

  176. CameronB Brodie says:

    From a post-colonial, social psychological perspective, the historically colonised often despise their coloniser.

    How Trauma Is Carried Across Generations
    Holding the secret history of our ancestors.

    What is overwhelming and unnamable is passed on to those we are closest to. Our loved ones carry what we cannot. And we do the same.

    This is the subject of Lost in Transmission: Studies of Trauma Across Generations, edited by M. Gerard Fromm (2012). This collection of essays on traumatic transmission builds on the idea that “what human beings cannot contain of their experience—what has been traumatically overwhelming, unbearable, unthinkable—falls out of social discourse, but very often on to and into the next generation as an affective sensitivity or a chaotic urgency.”

    ….Psychohistorian Howard Stein takes up the topic of collective trauma in America and imagines all the possible directions trauma can be transmitted in nations, ethnic groups, religions, and families. Trauma can be transferred in “vertical” direction, for example, in the brutal downsizing of a corporation. This is also the case in a leadership change at a local church after a pastor has been accused of sexual misconduct.

    Stein articulates “horizontal” transmission as the circulation of injury among people in more equivalent powers relations. This is often the experience of health professionals working with victims of large scale disaster, such as the Oklahoma City bombing (1995), who suffer the empathy of witnessing second-hand. Vertical and lateral transmissions may happen concurrently, in relation to the same event.

    Traumatic transmission ferries out unacknowledged grief along multiple vectors. Stein says mourning is “short-circuited,” groups become “stuck” in time, and collective solidarity is created in the process.

    Transmission is the giving of a task. The next generation must grapple with the trauma, find ways of representing it and spare transmitting the experience of hell back to one’s parents. A main task of transmission is to resist disassociating from the family hertiage and “bring its full, tragic story into social discourse.” (Fromm, xxi)

    Genocide. Slavery. Forced relocation. Destruction of cultural practices.

    Principles of Social Psychology – 1st International Edition
    Conflict, Cooperation, Morality, and Fairness

  177. Breeks says:

    Collie says:
    17 October, 2018 at 11:04 am

    ….The people of England think the world owes them a favour.

    They are the most self centred arrogant shower of bastards you are ever likely to come across…

    …Because they’ve been indoctrinated to believe it from cradle to grave.

    The “Toffs” are indoctrinated at Eton and Oxbridge to be the “leading” class which carries the heavy responsibility of holding the British Empire together for the good of the Establishment, while cannon fodder in the working class are indoctrinated to believe however miserable their life might be, they are still better off than the bloody ungrateful Johnny Foreigners.

    Perhaps the whole World, even Scotland, thought that way in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th Centuries… (at least those parts of the World armed with guns and artillery thought that way anyway).

    But then WW1 and WW2 happened, and it suddenly began to dawn on the poor bastards being sent into the perenial meatgrinder that their sacrifice was as meaningless as it was futile. The same embeciles who caused the carnage, the same Establishment, was still there, still in charge, and still threatening to punch above its weight somewhere else on the planet. Perhaps even with nukes!!

    Don’t be too hasty to prejudge your average Englishman Collie. We Scots are increasingly alert to perfidious shite we are served up from the BBC. We can smell their propaganda and manipulation a mile away, but down in England, they still don’t see it. If in doubt, watch Sink the Bismark, The Battle of Britain twice, and Ice Cold in Alex, and you’ll feel much better.

    And even when they do begin to see it, where does an Englishman take his protest? Who does he scream at? The Tories? What a joke. Labour? An even bigger joke. Lib Dems? Couldn’t even cut it as a joke. WHo is there?

    That’s why UKIP thrived… briefly. It was England’s rebellious party of protest which set out to give the Establishment a bloody nose.. and it did. But it was crude and clumbsy; much too gutteral and bass in its instincts, and all too easily hijacked by the Xenophobes and bigots of the far right. Their “heroes and rebels” weren’t Tommy Sheridans turning up to help the desperate poor avoid warrant sales of family heirlooms, but Merchant wankers, arch-parasites of the Establishment like Farage and Boris Johnson.

    Collie, I’ve worked and trained beside English artisans, I’ve soldiered and played sports beside English lads who’d have given all to help me just as I’d have given all to help them. The English are not the enemy. There are potentially, let me stress potentially, our greatest friends, but England the Nation needs the same philosophical modernisation which the BritNat Establishment is fighting tooth and nail to prevent happening in Scotland.

    Westminster and the BritNat Establishment is the common abscess which afflicts us all. Scotland is simply closer to finding the cure, while the English are desperately lost and fumbling in the dark. I fear they are going to hurt themselves too.

    When we Scots go, I hope we leave the door open so they can follow the light.

  178. Bob Mack says:


    Very well put. We are all still learning, but at least we have good teachers.

  179. Robert Peffers says:

    Breaking News. 16 minutes ago:

    EU gives Spain the power to use their veto over Brexit due to the Spanish/Gibraltar border question.

    Don’t know about anyone else but I cannot see Spain not vetoing Brexit.

  180. call me dave says:


    I think you summed that up pretty well. 🙂

    Mundell in the Commons there ‘Scottish questions’.

    Aye lots of.. More questions than answers… 🙁

  181. Collie I understand your feelings but there is an old saying when we have been done a great wrong we will not start to heal until we forgive ???

  182. Dr Jim says:

    Four TV channels dedicated to listening to the HOC and PMQs
    *Journalists* camp outside number 10 for a snippet of anything
    If the Prime Minister has something to say on anything time and space is made available for her on TV to do that whenever she requires UK wide

    In Scotland at FMQs one TV channel once a week, the rest of the time Scotlands FM is forced to use Twitter to communicate with Scotland

    Democratic deficit very clear because Scotlands FM only communicates with Scotland

    The argument that Scotland being a devolved nation thus is less important doesn’t hold when you consider that pertinant laws and decisions for Scotland are now taken by our Scottish parliament so in many cases actually more relevant than the UK in many cases

    Re runs of bits debates on Saturday mornings is not coverage of Scotlands political landscape when the kids are watching cartoons especially for those folk who only own one Telly

  183. Collie says:

    Blair Paterson

    My feelings towards the English will never be healed until we are free of their Colonial rule.

    I am actually holding back from posting what I really think about the English nation, purely through being a polite Scot.

  184. Breeks says:

    Collie says:
    17 October, 2018 at 12:42 pm

    Blair Paterson

    My feelings towards the English Westminster’s Government will never be healed until we are free of their Colonial rule.

    I am actually holding back from posting what I really think about the English nation British Establishment, purely through being a polite Scot.

    Fixed a couple of typos there Collie… Hope you don’t mind, because it puts us both on the same page.

  185. Giving Goose says:

    Breeks et al

    I would also add that England needs to go through the rather painful process of Brexit and come through the other side to actually achieve self awareness.

    There are are far to many people in England who are simply living as mushrooms. They are locked into a self destructive view of themselves and their place in the world.

    I feel sorry for them but the cure needs to be rather painful in order for the cure to take hold.

    Most medicine is unpalatable at the time.

    Brexit will be a medicine and a cure.

    Equally, the BritNats living in deluded self denial in Scotland will also need to go through a painful Brexit.

    I am already starting to see BritNats experiencing the pain of reality dawning. The UK is not the all conquering behemoth that they all so recently identified with.

    Roll on Brexit. It’s a self inflicted purging that will do a power of good in the long term.

  186. CameronB Brodie says:

    Political agency is vital to individual and collective inclusion. It also largely determines the potential for good metal health. Scotland lacks political agency, Brexit will compound this unhealthy situation.

    A Theory of Freedom: From the Psychology to the Politics of Agency

    In this expansive book, Philip Pettit aims to provide a theory of freedom that will connect the domain of individual freedom and the domain of political liberty. Pettit’s attention spans from the personal, psychological features of agency constitutive of free will to the social, relational aspects of agency constitutive of political freedom. The value of Pettit’s broad and integrative aim cannot be overestimated, as contemporary writings on freedom found in ethics, moral psychology, and political philosophy tend to disconnect these domains and focus on one or the other exclusively. Such exclusivity leads to accounts of individual freedom that do not make adequate sense of threats to freedom rooted in social structures or dynamics, and to political accounts that do not make adequate sense of threats to freedom rooted in an agent’s psychology. The promise to give a single account that will span across the psychological and political domains of human agency is a most welcome one.

    Social representations and the politics of participation

    The Social Psychology of Citizenship, Participation and Social Exclusion: Introduction to the Special Thematic Section

  187. Collie says:


    No such beast as the “British Establishment”.

    It is an English manufactured clique who decide what we hear and when we hear it.

    And delivered through their media wing, otherwise known as the BBC.

  188. Dan Huil says:

    It makes me laugh [sarcastically] whenever I hear britnat politicians pleading for all of us to do what’s best for “the country”. That “country” being of course England since according to britnats England equals Britain and Britain equals England.

    I also laugh [naturally] whenever I see the desperation in the faces of these same britnats.

  189. Collie says:

    Am I a racist for rejecting Englishness???

    For rejecting their propaganda that they impose on us on a daily basis???

  190. Daisy Walker says:

    re Gibraltar news.

    It is very limited on details. Gibraltar is a Tax Haven. Will the deal involve the use of European Court of Justice as lawful authority?

    If not, if something else has been arranged, then a back door has been brokered re the Tax Haven legislation. In effect the British Establishment will have succeeded in obtaining an EU climb down and a way of safeguarding their ill gotten gains.

    If this is what has happened, then Single Market and Customs Union membership can all be back on the table again. Except that they’ve been publicly miscrying these things for such a long time. Doh.

    Cue the labour party deciding to back another EU Ref for full SM and CU membership. The press to ease off on Corbyn.

    A GE for labour to get in, and all of the above to take the wind out of IndyRef2, and continue the power grab from Holyrood.

    I hope I’m wrong. If anyone can find real details re ECJ/Gibralta that would be interesting.

  191. Collie says:

    I have strong views regarding our Colonial masters and I apologise if I have offended anyone.

  192. Luigi says:


    Many of us have strong views regarding our “colonial masters”, but here’s the thing:

    The ordinary, decent folk of England are not our “colonial masters”. I think I speak for, hopefully, many here that our issue is not with the English people (many of whom are good friends, relatives and even some fellow indy supporters). Just ordinary folk like us. Our issue is with the Westminster Cabal and the BritNat media that runs the show.

    I understand your anger and appreciate your apology, but please, please:

    Know your enemy. 🙂

  193. TD says:


    Your xenophobic anti-English comments are really very worrying. You are falling into the trap set for us by unionists, both English and Scottish, and are confirming their belief that support for Scottish independence is founded on anti-English sentiment.

    If you say “The people of England think the world owes them a favour. They are the most self centred arrogant shower of bastards you are ever likely to come across”
    then you are guilty of prejudice. Your statement is of course patent nonsense as well as being objectionable – the truth is that some English people are arrogant, but so are some Scots. I have many friends who are English and they are decent people. I also know many Scots who are unsavoury characters to put it mildly.

    To attribute any characteristic such as arrogance on the basis of nationality is the epitome of xenophobia. It is just as offensive as racism, homophobia, sexism or any other blind prejudice based on ignorance.

    By expressing such views, you are doing our political opponents’ job for them. Your comments could well be used by them as evidence that independence supporters and wingers in particular are unpleasant people. I really wish you would desist.

  194. Valerie says:

    @ Collie

    You really are making an arse out of yourself, but I’m going to make this exception to respond, for the benefit of any lurkers.

    Your feelings towards Westminster aren’t any stronger or more justified than any of us. Our ire is towards the Tories and Westminster rule. I have strong feelings about the Labour party, May’s helpers.

    I think you know our argument is not with the “English”, so just stop posting that shite, because you will find your comments lifted by our opponents, and reproduced elsewhere as proof of xenophobia.

    There are a great many English people supportive of Independence, and many have loved ones who are English etc.

    Besides, England doesn’t have a monopoly on hatred, or a love of colonial rule, plenty living here too.

  195. Dan Huil says:

    Tommy Sheppard question:

  196. Petra says:

    More like Collie is making an ar*e of us. Has he / she shown any sign of supporting Independence? Posted any informative data to encourage others to support our cause? It may also be the case that Collie is in fact English (or a Scottish Unionist) and on here with the sole agenda of discrediting this site.

  197. One_Scot says:

    Given that we are so close to being Independent that we can almost touch it, I would be very wary of those who are looking to cause division at this point in time, whether they were genuine or not.

  198. Craig Murray says:

    AUOB do a superb job. I am sure there are troubles and those reporting them are genuine. But in the big picture AUOB are great.

    I would have a grudge if I chose because at Bannockburn and Edinburgh they scheduled me to speak last or near last, after a huge number of far less experienced speakers and hours of music of (ahem) variable quality, and after 99% of the crowd have gone home. Neither speech happened in consequence.

    But we have to bury our personal gripes. In Edinburgh I got to walk down the Royal Mile waving a saltire with 100,000 friends. The overall effect was stunning and hugely effective, and AUOB struck a huge blow for Indy. That is far more important than my feelings, whether justified or no, and those with arguments over stalls, money or routes should look at it the same way.

  199. Jack Murphy says:

    Thanks Nana for your excellent links at 7:19am and later.

    To the casual Wing’s readers just having a quick look, I say— Welcome. 🙂

  200. Robert Peffers says:

    @Bob Mack says: 17 October, 2018 at 11:02 am:

    ” … We must also recognise Robert that the Tories are only in power because there is an important element of the English population who vote for exactly what they offer. They are not blameless in that choice.”

    I worked for the MOD, (Admiralty), for around 50 years in a predominately English workforce. Sad to say the average English person, (and I choose my words very carefully), is even more ignorant than the average Scot.

    Now, as to that choice of words, someone being ignorant is a very different matter from a person being bloody stupid. It simply means they do not know the facts.

    So with that in mind consider this – your average Scots has been brainwashed by the Westminster Establishment all their waking lives and the English independent education system is several magnitudes of quality below that of Scotland and you can only conclude that the average Englander is intellectually on a par with the average Scot but is several magnitudes more brainwashed.

    Here’s a wee sample of that fact. Around a fortnight ago I was speaking to an English Tourist who turned out to be an English Police Sargent on a motorhome tour with his family.

    We got into conversation and he expressed the view that in his opinion it would be a very sad thing if, “the country”, was broken up by the SNP Scottish Government and, as he loved his motorhome visits to Scotland, would need to get passport and visa clearance to visit if Scotland became independent.

    Now I have the capacity to keep an absolute straight face when pulling legs and said, “Eh! What country is it you imagine the SNP wants to split up”?. He, of course replied, “Britain”. Now I think you may guess where I was leading the conversation?

    So I said that Britain wasn’t a country and reeled of the 8 countries in the British Isles for him. Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland, (not forgetting to say in passing that the country of Ireland is politically partitioned), The Bailiwick of Jersey, Bailiwick of Guernsey & the Isle of Man.

    Now it came as a revelation to the guy that there were four independent of Westminster countries in the British Isles. It had just not ever occurred to him. Then it got even more strange, (for him).

    Well he said, “I suppose I meant The United Kingdom”, and again I had led him exactly were I wanted him to be and said, “Do you realise you have just described a United Kingdom that is composed of only two Kingdoms and was created by a, ‘Treaty of Union’, in 1606/7”?

    Honestly I could see the shock in the gut’s eyes. So anyway to cut a long conversation short, I went on to explain to him that the two kingdom United Kingdom contained four countries but was not itself a country and three of those countries were parts of the Kingdom of England. Then I chucked the ball right into his court and it almost left him speechless.

    So, I asked him, “Just where is the Parliament of your country of England situated and which MP of the Parliament of the country of England did you vote for”? The look on his face was quite a picture of sheer confusion.

    Now the point is this guy was intelligent and sharp minded but the truths about the British Isles just had not featured anywhere in his life. After quite a long conversation and me answering lots of questions he actually thanked me for the insight into things that had just never been considered anytime in his life. I estimated he was around 55 to 40 in age yet had never considered the actual set-up of the British Isles.

    Now the other point is that there was no rancour or arguments in the entire exchange but before parting he said, I have a totally different understanding of the Scottish Independence question now for I though it was just that the Scots hated the English and had never given the matter much thought.

    Anyway, just before we parted company when his wife an daughter returned I gave him a wee bit of an example of how things were different, ‘in this country’. I explained to him, (without expanding upon the details), that in Scotland the people, being sovereign, owned Scotland and that was why he could ‘Wild Camp’, in Scotland but not in England, Wales or N. Ireland where the Queen of England is legally sovereign.

    Anyway, I enjoyed our conversation, (and the tea & biscuit), while we waited his womenfolk returning from visiting the shops.

    The point is that most Englanders are intelligent and reasonable people who have been even more brainwashed than we Scots. Mind you it is a bit of an art to get them to listen to the truth but that’s no different from you average Scottish Britnat.

  201. mike cassidy says:

    Re the earlier posts about GMS this morning.

    The three-hour version is available.

    I’ll leave it to the techliterate to isolate and post the interview concerned.

  202. mike cassidy says:

    Cant’t belong before BBC Scotland asks the First Minister to do her patriotic duty!

  203. CameronB Brodie says:

    English Nationalism
    A Short History

    Where does the idea of ‘England’ come from, how did it evolve, and is its relevance real or imagined?

    There is no English state within the UK—no English passport, Parliament or currency; nor is there any immediate prospect of one. But that does not mean that England lacks an identity.

    The extent to which English nationalism has a deep history is a matter of controversy. Jeremy Black argues persuasively for its existence from ‘the Old English State’ onwards, predating the Norman invasion. By looking to the past, he seeks to understand England’s historical identity, and what it means for English nationalism today.

    English Nationalism also probes how other nationalist movements within Britain have helped shape an English identity. Has hostility to ‘England’ and ‘Englishness’ been the principal driver of resurgent English nationalism?

    The Brexit vote may appear to have cancelled out Scottish and other nationalisms as an issue—but in fact it has made what it is to be English a question of great urgency.

    Post-Brexit Britain: Thinking about ‘English Nationalism’ as a factor in the EU referendum

    The day of the EU referendum was a surprisingly chilly summer’s day for the British Isles. Low clouds had crept in overnight. Temperatures failed to rise throughout the early morning. Rain showers were dotted across the UK. It was on this day that the nation was waiting with baited breath. In the space of 24 hours, the electorate would prove to make one of the most influential and long-lasting decisions in living British history. The United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, colloquially known as the ‘Brexit’ Referendum, was taking place.1 This was the first time since 1975 that the British electorate had been asked to vote on any aspect of the UK’s membership with the EU. The decision of whether the UK should decide to leave or remain a member of the European Union, would have geopolitical, social, cultural, and economic consequences both for the UK, the European Union, and states globally.

    Turnout for this history-making referendum decision was high at 72.2%. After poll…

    A peculiarly British nationalism? – book review

    After its recent annual conference in Liverpool, the Labour Party released a well-received party political broadcast pitched squarely to the Leave voting working class electorate of Britain’s post-industrial towns. It painted a portrait of painful loss and redemption to come: a world of well paid jobs in factories and fishing fleets that had once given pride and purpose to communities, but which had been destroyed by forty years of neoliberalism and would now be rebuilt by a Labour government….

    The myth of post-war decline

    It was the very strengths of this British nation – in modernised nationalised industries, domestic food production and indigenous energy supply – that made Thatcherism possible, argues Edgerton. With North Sea oil and abundant agricultural production, Britain no longer needed manufacturing exports to pay for imported food and energy. This was an ‘epochal transformation’ that ‘has barely registered in political discourse or the history books’. The success of the post-war state, not its failure, provided Thatcher with a platform for restructuring the economy and society. The family silver had been thoroughly burnished in the 1960s and 1970s, making its sale all the more lucrative. The miners, dockers and factory workers made redundant in the shake out could be cushioned by a newly comprehensive and generous welfare state….

    But if Edgerton punctures declinist myths and Thatcherite narratives of a nation crippled by strikes, saddled with inefficient nationalised industries, and sapped of its native entrepreneurial energies, Rise and Fall also takes aim at bromides of the Left. Far from creating a welfare state, the Attlee government inherited one: the United Kingdom ‘went to war in September 1939 with a welfare state already in place’, Edgerton argues. Beveridge simply rationalised what had already been put in place by the Liberal-Conservative and Conservative governments of the 1920s and 1930s and filled in the gaps. It would fall to later Labour governments to overhaul the welfare state once more, dealing with the parsimonious legacy of Beveridge’s flat-rate contributions and benefits. Remembered for creating a New Jerusalem, Attlee’s government in fact put ‘warfare spending well above welfare spending in its priorities. It rearmed on a huge scale, while imposing NHS charges at a trivial but politically significant level.’ It was profoundly conservative too, leaving largely untouched elite education and the core structures of class society….

  204. harry mcaye says:

    Message for Collie – Fuck You and Fuck Off!

  205. Cubby says:


    Excellent post. Scottish independence could be the best thing for the English.

  206. Referendum1707 says:

    Craig Murray 1.35

    Well said, my sentiments too. I think that the bigger picture re the success of the marches is more important than internal squabbles about whatever (I’m not even clear on exactly what it is that the argument is supposed to be about)

  207. Collie says:


    Stupid cow.



  208. Hamish100 says:

    Collie. Abusive bully with an inability to formulate an argument worth listening too. A bore Zzzzzz

  209. Petra says:

    @ Referendum 1707 / Craig Murray ….. “Internal squabbles, stalls, money and routes.”

    It’s not just about the issues that you’ve mentioned. The organisers of AUOB lied to the independence movement by publicly announcing the day before the march that they had been to a meeting with Police Scotland, HES, Edinburgh Council and so on whereby Police Scotland had overruled HES. Then after the march announced that they had lied.

    If you’re interested check out the link at 7:51pm.

  210. gus1940 says:

    Given the stunning success of the AOUB Marches and Rallies one must ask the question – In whose interests is it for reports of factional unrest breaking out regarding AUOB and its organisers?

  211. Collie says:

    Hamish 100

    Butt out

  212. Elmac says:

    Re gus1940 @ 7.00pm

    Dead right, but next time would be well advised to dot the i’s and cross the t’s before the event. Otherwise the unionists will have a hay day. No more open goals for the scum to exploit.

  213. remi says:

    @ collie
    Well done for apologising if you offended anybody. That takes guts. You are not alone in wishing to be free of our colonial masters – it’s just how you are expressing it which is maybe counter-productive. Everybody on Wings I am sure, and this includes me, has got work into a frenzy by Britnattery to the extent of expletives and personal remarks. Just don’t press the enter button while angry. Nobody wants to give the Britnats any ammunition to call us racist. Some of your points are valid – there has been a fair bit of research to show that Scots and English folk, as nations, see and do things differently. Thanks be for that. For example, you are correct that the English nation inexplicably elect Tory governments. No-one can dispute that. However the English nation cannot all be products of unmarried parents.

  214. remo says:

    Can’t spell – remo or “worked up”

  215. Fred says:

    Agree with Craig Murray on this, Edinburgh was just superb, thoroughly enjoyed masel.

    Just finished Craig’s excellent book “Sikunder Burnes!” A tale of divide & conquer, a bit like this thread!

  216. Hamish100 says:


    No, why?
    Hamish100 says:
    17 October, 2018 at 5:39 pm
    Collie. Abusive bully with an inability to formulate an argument worth listening too. A bore Zzzzzz

  217. James Barr Gardner says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    17 October, 2018 at 12:22 pm

    Don’t know about anyone else but I cannot see Spain not vetoing Brexit.

    Wondering if Greece still wants the Parthenon Sculptures (Elgin Marbles) back ? The Greeks are asking right now !

  218. James Barr Gardner says:

    Reader, attend – whether thy soul Soars fancy’s flights beyond the pole,Or darkling grubs this earthly hole, In low pursuit; Know, prudent, cautious self control Is wisdom’s root. Robert Burns

  219. CameronB Brodie says:

    James Barr Gardner
    I spent a few years posting on here before I let it be known what my background is.

  220. jamie says:

    Sorry if it’s already been answered but what does the misery demands company relate too? All I can think of is the film misery but how does it relate to the picture is ruthie misery and fluffy company?

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