Wings Over Scotland

Not surprised. The main group to watch for trouble at any indyref w would be Rangers linked to Orange lodge.
Most likely group to have Yoon infiltration of any kind.

Only 63% ?
So it’s true then. They’re not all bawbags.

I’m glad to see that 37% of Rangers supporters do favour a Yes vote. There not all covered in Union Jacks in fact those that say they don’t support any team are almost as likely to vote NO.

They’ll be the women then.

I loved that question when I found it on the survey.

Had I not already twigged that it was a Wings survey that would have done it for me 🙂

Well done Rev!!

I take it this was before the Magic Hat ‘resigned’ 🙂

Football supporters are a minority issue in the Indy agenda. My reading of the last results suggests that No drew its main support from older citizens, women, the wealthy, EU residents and UK residents not born in Scotland. I suspect we will have EU residents lining up to vote YES next time round (so the more the merrier – for this and other reasons). Time will impact on the elderly No numbers, but maybe not in time for the next referendum. The question is how we do persuade the elderly, women and Non Scottish UK residents? I suspect we are wasting our breath on the wealthy.

but but but, do all the other clubs you mentioned include sevco?

Ill get ma jaiket

The Rangers Celtic thing is no surprise.

However, of those with no interest (like myself) in football …

NO 59%
YES 41%

… seems odd.

Women are more likely to be NO. Do women tend to not support compared to men? I don’t know.

Older people are more likely to be NO. In my mind, people used to support more in the past. I would have though older people more interested in football.

So what skews it?

Can you do one for Hibs V Hearts

Partick Thistle v Clyde

Berwick Rangers v….

Aberdeen v Peterhead

The Dundee’s

etcetera . Non football fans include St Mirren.

Interesting the way the “I don’t support (football I presume?)” answer breaks.

59-41 for No on slightly more than 50% of the sample when asked that question is a bit of an outlier mmm?

Maybe most people are just pissed off with being asked about two Glasgow football teams defined by hundreds of years of sectarianism/discrimination? One is still more defined by that than the other for sure in the last 30 years, but its 6 of 1, half dozen of the other in terms of fans before that.

There is no sane way to explain Celtic/Rangers-Sevco-whatever lunacy to people outside the central belt, never mind outside Scotland.

Stu – if you don’t already have the requisite datasets for this poll then maybe next time ask the same question along with region of Scotland. It’d be interesting to see the data.

Tell them they wont get European football after Brexit and watch those numbers change Tee Hee
Could it mean they’ll be at the back of the ListQueue behind Bosnia and Herzogovina coz both of their National team is great I hear
Much better than Sweatland the Cringers which’ll have to be the new name for what used to be Scotland the Brave

Vote No and get laughed at and mocked even louder than England by the rest of the world

Participants are John Swinney, Fluffy, Val McDermid, Shami Chakrabarti and Mark Littlewood.

Vestas, in the history of Celtic Football Club, there is no evidence of sectarianism as an aspect of Club policy, and as for the fans, there is little if anything to suggest Celtic supporters are any different.

I suspect the 59-41 “No” in the “I don’t support football” category is the “womens’ vote” and the “old folks” skewing things but I have no evidence of that.

I dunno how commissioning polls works – do you get the raw data back as well as all the tweaks for under/over-represented groups?

If you get the raw data then it ought to be possible to work out who/where and maybe why there’s a massive (is 20 points) change in that demographic.

@ manandboy 7:33pm :

I’m well aware of Celtic’s history – I support them and remember watching Paul McStay as a 14 year old in remote places like Lewis in the 1980s when the Celtic under-16 team toured. Credentials established mmm?

What I mean is that the vast majority of Scots don’t like being defined by two teams in one city who have religion involved. People get REALLY fucked off with being asked “Do you support Celtic or Rangers?” when someone identifies a Scottish accent abroad.

This is a good read. How shite could Brexit get?

This is one of the few times I seen clarity about the discrete phases which will apply …

“OK, so what does Article 50 involve?

There are three basic parts: the divorce, the transition deal and the final deal.”

link to politics.co.uk

Love that the team options included “Rangers” and not just Rangers. That could have pissed off a few or was it done over the phone?

What do the figures in brackets signify?

Joemcq I applied, said I was a yoon and remain and member of the northern branch but no invite!

Is it possible to show, after adjusting for socio-economic factors that voting Yes, gives you longer remaining life expectancy.
That might focus some minds.

So if you support a football club (any that is not the Queen’s 11) then you are more likely to support Independence?

= ) SMASHING = )

Bet Rangers fans reading this are looking at each other with suspicion now. Every second Rangers fan is a YESer.

Ah yes independence for Leith. You do know that big ugly Edinburgh forced an Act of Union on Leith and Leith was extinguished. (sounds familiar?)

The reason for the Act was also familiar it was Edinburgh’s cheapest way of disposing of their sewage!

Rangers fans are scum. Who knew?

Cue loads of irate Rangers fans claiming they support independence. Here’s a tip – if you don’t want to be called a Nazi stop attending Nazi Ball.

and I have not started on Brexit

no more subsidies for farmers
20% import charges on EU exports
no more infrastructure support

@handclapping says: 15 February, 2017 at 9:02 pm;

“Ah yes independence for Leith. You do know that big ugly Edinburgh forced an Act of Union on Leith and Leith was extinguished. (sounds familiar?)
The reason for the Act was also familiar it was Edinburgh’s cheapest way of disposing of their sewage!”

Just thought I’d dangle the bait, handclapping.
LOL!

There was, and probably still is, a pub down Leith Walk called the Half-Way. It was/is built across the old Edinburgh Leith border. In the days when the two towns were separate they had different licencing hours.

So at Last Orders at one side of the bar the other side was still licenced to be open.

There was a brass strip across the floor and up the walls to distinguish the border, So you bought your drink in one town and had to step over into the other to legally drink it when the early half closed.

Not been back for many years but I’d think they would keep the brass strip and the name as a historic draw for people.

Robert Peffers,

“Being elderly does not automatically predispose people to become unionist.”

All known information suggests that the vast majority of the elderly in Scotland are unionist.

Thanks for putting this Poll together Rev.

I think the word of the day has to be “frustrating”.

We still can’t seem to punch through the 50% glass ceiling. But as usual we will keep hammering away.

I still believe that the Polls will shift dramatically once Article 50 is triggered and Nicola gives us the date for IndyRef2.

Take another Poll in six months time and see the difference.

Scots will be crying out for Independence.

And 46% 47% 48% 49% at this stage is no bad thing.

Onwards and Upwards.

Ref ” Galamcennalath” @ 0928 pm ” . Read your earlier post & link. I sincerely hope that
the “Brexit implications” will materialise/ crystallise soon after article 50 trigger. However , my thoughts are that the
Establishment propagandists will undoubtedly do their utmost to ” cover up” the economic fallout
from the Scottish electorate until after Indyref 2 . ( jam tomorrow , with Britannia Global trade renaissonse ).

Joemcg & Lenny earlier re QT.

My son also applied and said he voted Yes and Labour but not a member of a political party. Heard nothing. He reckons they still have info on him from other times he has applied.

Over-paid fragile prima donnas from all over the place very experienced in diving should be swimmers or poor bit actors, but from nowhere near where the team actually plays.

Junior football is much better, at least transfers are from somewhere within 60 miles. Usually.

My Brazilian is better than your Argentinian any day of the week.

Can I say that?

I don’t think any group should be ‘left out’ or not courted to support indy on the basis that they are hard to reach. That seems quite cynical and ‘Better Togetherish’ to me.

We want to take everyone with us (or as many as possible anyway). I’d like everyone in this country to feel that they are ‘worth it’. You don’t manage that by excluding people.

I’m not a confident person and I didn’t get annoyed on a personal level when we were told ‘Scotland can’t do it’ in the run-up to 2014. But I was angry when I looked around and knew that our people are as capable as anyone else, but that many don’t believe it.

I don’t think triangulating or only targeting certain ‘demographics’ is the way to build a cross-society based support for independence.

We should want to make as many people as possible across all ‘groups’ in society excited about the prospect of independence. Again, you won’t do that by effectively saying ‘we gave up on you cos it was too hard’ to any sector of society.

And, really, having broad-based support limits the chances that there would be as much carping afterwards.

We should be looking to let everyone in this country know that they are valued, and reassure them that an independent Scotland holds nothing to fear for them (and everything to gain).

In short, show everyone some love – no matter how difficult it is to gain their support. After all, we want indy because we believe it is best for us *all*, right?

Ooops, I finally looked that up. Mmm. Ah well. Ouch.

Try this one instead. Real men play rugby. Women too.

link to scottishrugby.org

Suppose I’d better make a serious comment.

37% of Rangers supporters would vote YES, and that’s surprising considering the constant abuse of them by some YES supporters who should know better.

Independence will be won by being inclusive not divisive. Every single person in Scotland is a potential YES voter.

Fireproofjim says: @10.29pm

“Of my numerous friends in their mid seventies only two are Yes supporters.”

Note what you say but puzzled at their reasons. Men in their mid seventies were children during the Second World War, only just entering primary school when it ended.

Could it not be, perhaps, that they were the first generation to benefit from the welfare state post-war? They were also beneficiaries, by the time they entered the work force, of full employment and strong trade unions. They would also be aware of the sacrifices and hardships endured by their parents’ generation to bring this about. They did greatly admire the generation which fought the Second World War – and their solidarity – and grew up probably grateful for the opportunities that had been won for them, the post-war generation.

Growing up with the knowledge that they had often improved their lot compared to that of their parents might have sealed their sense of being part of a confident and more secure polity. It may be that they are looking back to the fifties and sixties rather than the war years.

Just a thought.

@handclapping says: 15 February, 2017 at 10:12 pm:

“Alt-truths do not help your argument. Most people become conservative as the age and feel unable to cope with change.”

Why bother replying to Rock? He has a strange mental process.

He imagines that being old predisposes people to be unionists because there were more of them voted NO.

It never enters a fool’s mind that because they jump to a wrong conclusion that they may have misdiagnosed the facts as quoted. The facts may be correct – it is the diagnosis that is wrong.

In fact the simple diagnosis is, when you actually think about it, quite the opposite to what Rock concludes.

The larger number of older NO votes are not Unionist because being old predisposes them to be unionists. It is because being unionist indicates they were unionists before the YES movement began to become more popular.

Thus the YES movement has simply pulled in most of its support from a younger group of people.

By Rocks way of diagnosing why certain groups vote no could well be worked like this :-

“The facts are that no chimpanzees voted NO. So most YES votes must be chimpanzees.”.

(apologies to all NO voting chimpanzees – it was used as example for only illustration purposes. No offence was intended).

You really honestly have to laugh at Rocks rocklike resolve to stick to his daft points.

@Fireproofjim says: 15 February, 2017 at 10:29 pm:

“For once I agree with Rock, god help me.”

Oh! Come on! Fireproofjim!

No one is disputing that there are more older folks that voted NO in the referendum. That is simply a fact as shown by the numbers.

Where Rock and Co. are being so idiotic is by drawing the absolutely wrong conclusion from the absolutely correct facts.

The claim that being old can predispose anyone to vote NO is plainly daft. Here is another indisputable fact – older folk tend to become more, “conservative”, (here conservative simple means resistant to change), with age.

However, if a particular older person has been an independence supporter all their life then their conservatism, (small c), is to remain staunchly an independence supporter. Like myself for example.

So again no one disputes the fact that older folk tend to be more, “conservative”, (resistant to change), but that too is the correct conclusion to be drawn from the facts.

It is not that simply by being old it will predispose anyone to become unionists it is that being an old unionist predisposes the older person to REMAIN a old unionist or whatever else they already were before they became older people.

@Johnny says: 15 February, 2017 at 10:51 pm:

“I don’t think any group should be ‘left out’ or not courted to support indy on the basis that they are hard to reach. That seems quite cynical and ‘Better Togetherish’ to me.”

Great Post, Johnny. Sanity and good common sense at last.

@JGedd says: 15 February, 2017 at 11:20 pm:

“Note what you say but puzzled at their reasons. Men in their mid seventies were children during the Second World War, only just entering primary school when it ended.”

Note what you say but as one a wee bit older I know more of the truth having not only lived through it but lived part of it in the deep south in Hants, (pre-and during the invasion of Normandy), and a spell in London during the Bliiz.

Here is the brutal truth – these people you speak of were subjected to the absolutely most, “England Stood against the NAZI might singlehanded”, propaganda on a 24/7/365 basis all their lives. A bit like the myth of Dunkirk – it was a humiliating retreat in truth. A bit like the USA myth that the USA came to save our bacon.

The USA were attempting, not successfully, to get out of the Great Depression. They first sold the Allies arms and supplies on a cash now and transport it yourself basis.

The USA act that set this up begins, “In defense of the US … “. As they knew it was in defence of the USA, why were they still not fighting their own corner?

After the allies cash ran out the USA began the Lease/Lend Act – Buy now pay later and continued to remain over there and not over here. This act too begins, “In defense of the us … “.

Not until Japan declared war by taking out Perl Harbour and Hitler declaring war on the USA did they come to fight. BTW: they flogged us 50 WWI destroyers in exchange for our overseas bases – Many of the old ships couldn’t make it over the Atlantic and the USA still has our overseas bases.

So there you go. These people were brainwashed from birth and they soaked in all the England Stood alone propaganda. Note it wasn’t then that they claimed as they do now to be British it was England that was the thing.

Getting the idea now, JGedd?

Could it not be, perhaps, that they were the first generation to benefit from the welfare state post-war? They were also beneficiaries, by the time they entered the work force, of full employment and strong trade unions. They would also be aware of the sacrifices and hardships endured by their parents’ generation to bring this about. They did greatly admire the generation which fought the Second World War – and their solidarity – and grew up probably grateful for the opportunities that had been won for them, the post-war generation.
Growing up with the knowledge that they had often improved their lot compared to that of their parents might have sealed their sense of being part of a confident and more secure polity. It may be that they are looking back to the fifties and sixties rather than the war years.
Just a thought.

To be honest i think that all polls are shite ,I have never been asked ! , during Indy1 I would have put my house on 70/30 for indy ,I even said that on the 17th sept on facebook to my friends. We wer robbed and everyone knows it.In this democratic land of make belief you are a loony if you say it was rigged and i really must be a loony. Most “votes” from pensioners wer postal and thats wer it went wrong,,after all these years we still think the establishment will play fair. Dont blame any demographic ,blame a corrupt westminster government.

I think we have to concentrate on the fact that Scotland is a net exporter while England is a net importer and has a serious deficit wre to imports/exports.

I also think you should not be focussing on the older generation, of which I am one, as many of us voted SNP in the seventies to secure Scotland’s oil, which was fruitless.

I, however, have been in favour of Scottish independence since 1967 before oil was discovered.

Jings, churn not curno, and more importantly Arctic Convoys.

@ Robert Peffers 12.26am

Wouldn’t disagree with anything that you say, Robert. I was only presenting what I think is often the mindset of that immediate post-war generation. They saw themselves as the lucky generation and often voted Labour, seeing that party as having ensured the welfare state.

I have met these people most of my life who seem unable to recognise that all of those benefits which enabled them to do better than their parents’ generation are disappearing. They seem unable to see that they are bequeathing a more precarious and difficult future to their grandchildren.

By the way, I’m not so young myself, used to vote Labour but gave up on them long ago and realised that independence was the only way. Many others did likewise, accounting for the growth in support for the SNP. I have just tried to understand the mindset of those who seem unable to change their point of view.

Best wishes Robert. Have to hit the hay now.

Johnny @ 10.51 pm

YES! That’s the spirit!!

Rock @ 11.00 pm Haud yer whist ye miserable git.

Robert Peffers @ 11.59 pm Spot on = )

I’m no spring chicken and my mum and dad are well into their 80’s, been Independence-minded all their lives, am so very proud of their committment to Scotland 🙂

We can and ABSOLUTELY should be positive!

This is an inclusive country and naturally our campaign for Independence should and will be Inclusive.

Amongst ourselves and our many talents we can and will reach out to absolutely everybody.

Watch out trolls, we want to win your hearts too = )

@ Ghillie.

If there are grammar issues, typos or formatting issues let me in advance blame the single malt. 😉

link to itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com

UK fishermen may not win ‘waters back’ after Brexit, EU memo reveals
link to archive.is

Theresa May’s Empire of the Mind
link to archive.is

19 million Brits are on the edge of poverty even though nearly everyone has a job — and it’s going to get worse
link to archive.is

For the Dundee clubs I expect that it would look a bit like Rantic and celgers.

United fans I speak with on forums are about 70% Yes and the other lot about 60% No.

Dundee does see itself as the “Establishment Club” in the City and United are more of a free thinking bunch.

Hertz and Hibs will be similar too…most Hearts fans I know are No’s and universally all Hibees I know (though there’s only about 7 of them) are Yes.

Football team does come into to it to an extent but then most people are drawn to a team and history and what is “stands for” is one key reason.

A Proud Arab

Nana: Good Morning,

Links, just in time for breakfast.Kettle’s on.

Peace Always

Seconds, great, thank’s Nana.
🙂

Peace Always

@handclapping
I reckon on average yessers live longer after voting in indyref

Les Wilson says:

They Always are!

fixed that for you Les.
🙂

Peace Always

@Nana

Mornin’ Nana. 🙂

Read the ‘everything you need to know’ piece on politics.co last night. The fella isn’t far off the mark. It will be that awful and it will hit every single person in their livingroom.

As part of the UK it is also inescapable and inevitable. When the UK gov has to start paying to create entire new legislative and bureaucratic bodies to facilitate a world outside current trade and legislation where did everyone think they were going to get the money?

When producers pay for increases in consumables and materials required, or when retailers have to pay extra to stock their shelves. There was only ever going to be one place where the costs were going to be really borne.

Its the double whammy. People will be taxed to pay for new or reinstated government bodies and people will pay the extra every single week in costs across the board in the production, retail and private sectors.

No one and I do mean no one, is going to freeze their current pricing structure out of the goodness of their hearts. Costs for everything WILL be passed along to an inevitable end point.

Y’know, you keep hearing from folk that this ain’t so bad right now and how much worse could it get? They tend to completely overlook that Brexit hasn’t started yet. What they consider minor financial inconvenience at the moment, although pretty fucking real to those of us on or below the median, isn’t anywhere near the worst that is going to happen.

This is merely a gusty wind. The storm is just over the horizon.

Rock is being a thick as mince, there are less polite ways of saying it of course.

The higher the YES/NO vote is in any sub category the less likely it is that you’ll persuade anyone. If they’re on board then the best you might do is keep them that way. Possibly they might persuade others in the same other sub categories.

Those more opposed to you might be persuaded to your side. Especially if your opponents take the same attitude of assuming they are theirs by default.

All Rock’s strategy seems to consist of is emphasising divisions. If Scotland does leave the UK it should be as one.

Nana, having great difficulty accessing the Brendan O’Hara piece , is there another method of accessing ?

@R-type Grunt says: 15 February, 2017 at 9:05 pm:

“if you don’t want to be called a Nazi stop attending Nazi Ball.”

More like, “Stop wearing the NAZI uniform and waving the NAZI flag while singing the NAZI anthems if you are not a NAZI supporter.”

The old saying applies, “If ye flee wi the craws ye maun bi shot iz a craw”.

Macart says:

This is merely a gusty wind. The storm is just over the horizon.

When Article 50 is triggered and the EU speaks up, telling the UK how things will be, it will all change.

The Leavers have been sold an absolute crock of shite and don’t know it yet. The media has been relentlessly selling Brexit as “see it’s all going to be just fine”. There are going to be a lot of angry people. For one thing the immigration changes they were promised may never happen. The money paid to the EU is going to be a drop in the ocean compared to the huge economic changes to come. Most ordinary Leavers are going to feel very foolish, I reckon, when they realise the extent to which they were lied to.

I assume Yes-Leave people here is Scotland haven’t quite come to terms either with just what Leave is going to mean. Hopefully the reality will shock them into giving their YES leanings priority!

All Rock’s strategy seems to consist of is emphasising divisions. If Scotland does leave the UK it should be as one.”

Seconded. Rock’s a pretty skillful er, dude though. If we all trip down the Rock route, we’re essentially sending out a very big underlying message, who can we exclude and who can we prevent from participating in Scottish democracy.

Its an insidious trick and ploy, excluding people from their own democracy, and ofcourse currently on display in the US with the Heil Trump gangsters.

Tory Brits have done it since the beginning of UK democracy. Stand outside the Palace of Westminster and everything about it is exactly what our masters want us to understand, its exclusive, you cant get in to it, you cant understand it, its not yours, you’re like medieval peasants at the gates of a giant gothic fortress. Listen to our hired goons like Ligger Neil and Nic Robinson, only they can explain how it works because youre so stupid.

Our parliament should be like Hampden Park, with everyone that lives in Scotland in the stadium able to see what’s going on, say what we think and with everyone in Scotland able to vote.

Everything a tory says is a lie and everything they say has a hidden message, keep out of our “democracy.”

Fcuk that.

@galamcennalath

I have no bone in the entire EU/EFTA/IN/OUT argument. More importantly, I’m not fussed so long as we participate with the continent and don’t trample on people’s human rights. As far as I’m concerned, there is a far more stifling and oppressive political union and constitutional clusterf**k a damn sight closer to home.

The world is an ongoing exercise in interconnectivity and interdependence. Trade, diplomacy, legislation, bureaucracy, sovereignties all woven together in treaties, partnerships and understandings. Massively complicated and frighteningly fragile as a socio-economic construct. It doesn’t take much to destroy the economies of nations, or drive entire demographics into appalling hardship.

It only takes ignorance.

What the UK wants doesn’t matter to the other 27 nations. They all have economies and national interests. I doubt there will be much sympathy as that other shoe drops.

So as cheezeballs like Rock stride in and say, “listen to me everyone, who can we exclude from our democracy, I am very tough and a bully and its really important that we keep this group of rotters out of our democracy and them and that lot too…”

Think about what the original architect of Holyrood was designing for our new Holyrood parliament and why it was not the usual imperial gothic or classical fortress like Westminster. And then ask, why did our UKOK political masters jump in and try to then change Holyrood into just the same old same old, inaccessible, excluding, sometimes incomprehensibly ugly and ofcourse skullfcukingly expensive?

link to designbuild-network.com

The original Spanish architectural Enric Miralle envisaged new Scottish democracy as open to everyone, benign and welcoming as a Scottish beach, with our Scottish parliament at the shore line, fishing boats dragged up in front of it, as open and accessible an architectural and democratic metaphor as you can get basically.

The UK is currently being ‘governed’ in an attitude of casual, undisciplined, incompetent, arrogance.
Think of any Tory Minister and apply the above profile.
Yep, that’s the Tories alright.

Independence – you know it makes sense.

@Dorothy

Glad you managed to get the article Dorothy albeit a worrying article, we need to be aware in order to pass on the information. I use chrome and have no problems opening the link, but I did have problems opening some links on my old machine.

@Capella
Sinister is right, I do wonder if anyone is looking into this but like you I’m not holding my breath either. I will watch the video when I manage to find time, lol

Re Hidden Agenda – The Youtube video is strangely poor quality video. There is a second version which is wiped throughout.
Guess the hidden agenda is “don’t watch it” !

You can get it from Amazon though.

”

Thepnr says:

15 February, 2017 at 6:23 pm

“Just in case anyone failed to notice 547 of the 1028 respondents said they didn’t support any team. That’ll be the women then ”

Naw, that’ll be the middle class rugby supporters, says a sport hating, Yes voting woman:-)

Robert Peffers,

“By Rocks way of diagnosing why certain groups vote no could well be worked like this :-

“The facts are that no chimpanzees voted NO. So most YES votes must be chimpanzees.”.”

My way of diagnosing is exposing your shite and pedantry:

Robert Peffers,

“Being elderly does not automatically predispose people to become unionist.”

Rock,

“All known information suggests that the vast majority of the elderly in Scotland are unionist.”

Fireproofjim,

“For once I agree with Rock,”

Robert J. Sutherland,

“Rock @ 23:11:
… the sort of people the RIC was so successful in reaching, but not enough to win last time.

A semi-myth. RIC may have helped to get people “out of hiding from the poll tax” and registered, but in the end most of these people didn’t bother to vote. Just look at the low turnout figures for Glasgow to see. And Glasgow voted yes anyway.”

Would Glasgow and Dundee have voted Yes without the efforts of RIC?