The world's most-read Scottish politics website

Wings Over Scotland


Liberated: What did the British ever do for the English? (from The Times)

Posted on June 08, 2012 by

It’s been months since we freed an interesting piece of writing from behind a paywall, but this opinion column from today’s Times deserves to be read by anyone with an interest in the nationalist cause, and we can’t claim to be experiencing any great guilt about depriving News International of 0.0000001p in order to bring you it.

It’s an analysis of Ed Miliband’s bizarre “Englishness” speech yesterday (which gets odder and odder the more you examine it), and aside from making the lazy, clumsy but common error of asserting that Labour can’t win in England alone it’s a thoughtful and interesting piece highlighting the contradictions between Miliband’s assertions and depictions of Englishness and his Unionism. Read it below.

———————————————————–

17 to “Liberated: What did the British ever do for the English? (from The Times)”

  1. Rolf says:

    Thanks for sharing this.
    One comment I read yesterday suggested Ed’s speech had been preparation in advance of an Indy yes vote – presumably meaning that once the Scottish revenues were gone he could look back and say to England, I warned you and I really tried to keep Scotland. Or perhaps he was aiming to entice Tory voters from parts of England that Labour would need to win over in order to replace the lost Scottish MPs?
    As for all this Englishness/Britishness/Scottishness – I will vote Yes because I think that there is a democratic deficiency in Scotland, has been for decades. It’s that simple and has nothing to do with my nationality, perceived or otherwise.

    Reply
  2. Confucious says:

    One thought occurs, a few unionists have recently been floating the idea that independence is inevitable. Could it be the Mr Milliband secretly accepts this analysis and is positioning his party to win more English voters back to the party?

    Reply
  3. Confucious says:

    Ahha it seems Rolf and I had the same thoughts!
     

    Reply
  4. Rolf says:

    Confucious – great minds think alike!

    Reply
  5. MajorBloodnok says:

    I agree that his aim was the English voter and not Scots.  And to woo these voters Labour has no option (or so he believes) but to move to the right… which is already happening and does not endear him to voters north of the border.

    Reply
  6. Juteman says:

    I think one of the most telling things from Ed’s speech was the comment that the Union needs the Scots for economic reasons. I think he said it twice.
    Nobody seems to have picked up on that.
     
    Is this the start of ditching the ‘subsidy junkie’ tactics? Maybe the next narrative will be laying a guilt trip on us Scots, for taking our oil money away from the poor English?

    Reply
  7. Cuphook says:

    I’ve just been reading the comments in the Telegraph on articles about Ed’s speech and the reich wing are out in force rabidly denouncing anyone who is perceived to be less English than they are.
     
    There is a big problem with English nationalism and while any opportunity to discuss it and normalise it should be welcomed I just don’t think Ed gets it. He’s confused himself as to what is English and what is British. Maybe he should give Billy Bragg a phone.

    Reply
  8. Cuphook says:

    I was just thinking about English nationalism and it crossed my mind that perhaps it’s easier for us Scots, being the smaller partner in the Union and all too ready to guard the borders of our sensibilities for any infringement, to identify what is English and what is British.
     
    England has always been the default paradigm for Britain. The English way was always the “correct” British way and any divergence from this in the “Celtic fringes” was considered quaint as long as it didn’t disturb the status quo.
     
    When England equalled Britain in many people’s minds it must have become confusing when they considered truly British institutions.

    Reply
  9. Aplinal says:

    Interesting article, thanks for sharing.
    I do take exception to a couple of things.  Mr Collins suggests (and in fact in Ed’s speech – I dd not read all of it, it is a poor piece of writing IMHO) that Scotland somehow benefits from being in the union, but England does not.  Strange then that Ed stated more than once that England benefits financially from Scotland.  No mention of the other way round.  So, Mr Collins, without some evidence – I realise this is not usually provided by the pro-dependency commentators – this statement about Scotland  is vague wishful thinking. (The too poor argument).
    Mr Collins also seems to think that Scotland gains security.  How exactly?  The MoD is pulling troops and equipment out of Scotland with gay abandon.  The WMD on the Clyde are , if anything, a TARGET as much as a ‘deterrent’.   And the withdrawal of cover for the oil fields and the Scottish coast is nothing short of a scandal.  To think that an Independent Scotland would be uniquely incapable of establishing, improving, equipping, and maintaining an appropriate armed force is risible.  (The too stupid argument).
    Finally, the idea that Labour will be forever cast into the political wilderness in England without the support of the 40+ Scottish MPs is, frankly incomprehensible.  Even a cursory look at the election results since the WWII show only two occasions when the Scottish MPs made a difference to the ‘colour’ of the Westminster parliament.   And if the rUK don’t want Labour in government, that is there democratic choice, is it not?
    Otherwise, an interesting slant on a rather puzzling speech.

    Reply
  10. YesYesYes says:

    Ukania is in terminal decline. This much, Miliband understands. The Jubilee ‘celebrations’, the  artificial ‘inclusiveness’ of the Olympic torch ceremony and the Olympics itself are best seen as deathbed spasms, desperate attempts to inject some life back into the old girl.
     
    I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when the Olympics Committee made its decision to give us the women’s fitba.
     
    “OK, what can we give the jocks that’ll keep them happy? Obviously track and field, swimming and cycling are out, what does that leave”?
    “Boxing”?
    “Gone”.
    “Shooting”?
    “Gone”.
    “What about hockey, they play that funny-named game with sticks up there, right”?
    “Hockey’s gone”.
     “Basketball, they’ll go for that”.
    “Gone”.
    “TaeKwondo”?
    “Gone”.
    “Weightlifting”?
    “Gone”.
    “Judo”?
    “Gone”.
    “Karate”?
    “Gone”
    “Beach volleyball”?
    “Do they have beaches up there”?
    “Beach volleyball? In Jockland in July, are you mad”?
    “Anyway, beach volleyball’s gone”.
    “Is fishing an Olympic sport”?
    “Good try, but no”.
    “Ping-pong, they’ll love that”.
    “Gone”.
    “What about cross-country skiing”?
    “That’s the winter Olympics”.
    “I’ve got it, tennis”.
    “Purrleeze”.
    “I was thinking of the Andy Murray connection. After all, we’ve got Wimbledon”.
    “Tennis is gone, end of”.
    “Badminton”?
    “Gone”.
    “Squash”
    “Gone”.
    “Jesus Christ! There has to be something we can give them. Think”.
    “I’m out, can’t think of anything”.
    “Me too”.
    “Looks like we’ll have to settle for the torch ceremony then”.
    “Wait a minute, what about football”.
    “Football’s gone. Anyway, there’s no way we’ll send our boys up there. Can you imagine the reception they’d get if we won the Euro Championships”?
    “We might not send our boys up there but what about our women”?
    “Jeez, he’s right, it’s not on the list”.
    “But haven’t they got their own football up there? This could backfire on us”.
    “Have you seen their professional football? They won’t be able to tell the difference”.
    “He’s right. Thank Christ for that. Quick, put it in, women’s football, Jockland”.
    “Phew. That was close”.
    “Now who’s going to break it to Seb”.

    Reply
  11. Kenny Campbell says:

    I think the guilt trip has already started a few months back, remember “A child in poverty in Bradford is as important as one in Glasgow…….”
     
     

    Reply
  12. Appleby says:

    He claimed there was an “excellent” case for the union…yet failed to make it clearly and failed to mention anyone else making that magical positive case. There’s people almost crying out for this mythical case and yet he simply sweeps it under the carpet while making grand claims of the way he would vote (and by implication how you and any “right” thinking person would do so too). Then he makes the old sloppy claim about Scotland being burdened with the sole responsibility of saving England from the Tories by voting Labour in. Urgh.
     
    The Times piece didn’t impress me. Seems more like someone simply beating up an easy (albeit deserving and at times confusing) Labour target – the robotic Ed, while reinforcing the usual dangerous misinformation.

    Reply
  13. Rob says:

    Its all very funny, but misses one blindingly obvious point. The majority of Scots quite like the Union and dont actually want to hand over Scotland to a bunch of amateur politicians from Holyrood when they can blame the professionals in Westminster.

    Reply
  14. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

    @Rob

    A funny post, that quite misses the point. No-one has ever actually asked the Scottish public what they like and as a result there can be no clear cut conclusion that backs up your assertion.

    And as far as “amateur politicians from Holyrood” goes, I would rather trust the people I have the ability to remove from office, than those that have power on their side and cannot be removed.

    Reply
  15. charlie says:

    Rob, people want change, the world seems to be getting worse and the leaders and potental leaders of the UK say you have to suffer. We are rich and you have to suffer, sorry about that. I don’t buy it newcoUK is the same shite, different day
    All the best
    Charlie

    Reply
  16. douglas clark says:

     
    Rob,

    The only cohort of politicians at Westminster that I have any time for whatsoever are the SNP MPs who are essentially committed to doing themselves out of a job.

    However, it seems to me that one of the consequences of independence may well be an influx of ‘professional’ politicians who are currently sitting in Westminster seats attempting to get a seat at Hollyrood.

    Assuming of course that any of them wanted to continue a career in politics, and that their electoral base stood up. Given that there would be a surfeit of politicians chasing a reduced need for politicians the fear within the unionist parties must be that the opportunities for a political career diminishes for both their MPs and MSPs. Something I do not think has been properly explored yet. There is a lot of personal investment in the ‘status quo’ for unionist politicians of a ‘professional’ bent. Perhaps they should have to declare that?

    Going with your thought expiriment that would probably mean a Scotland wide stushie equivalent to the the recent debacle in Glasgow where Labour brought in new candidates to replace the old guard.  Though it might well improve the opposition benches somewhat.

    Whether the troika of Lamont, Rennie and Davidson would continue to head up their new parties in Scotland after independence is an interesting question that I leave the reader to ponder.
     

    Reply
  17. Appleby says:

    Rob is clearly utterly clueless when it comes to the reality of Westminster and its politicians. That or he is a troll / pot-stirrer who doesn’t like the idea of his own party being cut off at last.
     
    Typical FUD, really. FEAR, UNCERTAINTY, DOUBT. Such are the ways of unionists. They have no positive case for the union.

    Reply


Comment - please read this page for comment rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use paragraph breaks in long comments. DO NOT SIGN YOUR COMMENTS, either with a name or a slogan. If your comment does not appear immediately, DO NOT REPOST IT. Ignore these rules and I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.


  • About

    Wings Over Scotland is a thing that exists.

    Stats: 6,789 Posts, 1,222,317 Comments

  • Recent Posts

  • Archives

  • Categories

  • Tags

  • Recent Comments

    • stuckdoonhame on The Pillars Of Sanity: “Massive kudos to you, Lorn, not only for your ever sensible analysis of this nonsense but for your correct use…Jul 20, 02:20
    • stuckdoonhame on The Pillars Of Sanity: “Massive kudos to you, Lorn, not only for your ever sensible analysis of this nonsense but for your correct use…Jul 20, 02:13
    • Rob on The Pillars Of Sanity: “Its perfectly obvious that NHS Fife are trying to find something, anything, to blacken Peggies character t try and salvage…Jul 20, 00:26
    • Lorn on The Pillars Of Sanity: “The National is a disgrace as a national newspaper. Its pages are in vested with ‘trans’ dogma and its support…Jul 19, 23:23
    • dearieme on The Pillars Of Sanity: “James VI decided, later in life, that he’d been wrong about witches. They weren’t bad, they were mad. He supported…Jul 19, 22:43
    • Alf Baird on The Pillars Of Sanity: “UKSC, Court of Session and ScotGov and other state institutions all serve the English (as British) Crown, i.e. they do…Jul 19, 20:25
    • agent x on The Pillars Of Sanity: “@ Kelpie If they withdraw their defence then it becomes a default judgment and every point raised by the clamant…Jul 19, 20:03
    • agent x on The Pillars Of Sanity: “Notice also that Upton is described as “she” despite having a cock and bollocks.Jul 19, 19:34
    • Aidan on The Pillars Of Sanity: “@Kelpie – you are exactly right, that is definitely what they are planning to doJul 19, 19:22
    • Aidan on The Pillars Of Sanity: “@Alf – how does that relate specifically to the comments raised?Jul 19, 19:20
    • Kelpie on The Pillars Of Sanity: “There are plenty of legal types on X saying that NHS Fife can totally end this right now by basically…Jul 19, 19:15
    • agent x on The Pillars Of Sanity: “The National barely mentions the Sandie Peggie case but yesterday published: “Sandie Peggie denies making racist comment as new allegation…Jul 19, 19:09
    • Alf Baird on The Pillars Of Sanity: “In the colonial situation there is only colonial governance: which implies “a government and a judicial system fed and renewed…Jul 19, 19:04
    • Dave Hansell on The Pillars Of Sanity: ““The days when police forces across the UK acted as pet goon squads for every misogynist incel with a grudge,…Jul 19, 18:39
    • Dave G on The Pillars Of Sanity: “As a matter of strict law the Northumbria Police judgement does not apply in Scotland since the jurisdiction of the…Jul 19, 18:30
    • James on Points Into Prongs: “Dave L; yep, they don’t call he/she/it the Site Prick for nothing….Jul 19, 18:19
    • agent x on The Pillars Of Sanity: “@ Alf “On 8 December 2023, the Outer House of the Court of Session, part of Scotland’s highest civil court,…Jul 19, 18:15
    • Confused on The Pillars Of Sanity: “balance is restored to the force www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAbIL8C2JJ0Jul 19, 18:12
    • agent x on The Pillars Of Sanity: “16 APRIL 2025 – VICTORY #1 Arguably (we’ll come to that later) the most crucial victory of them all was…Jul 19, 18:11
    • Andy Storrie on The Pillars Of Sanity: “Come on, Campbell. You just canny help yourself, son. Let it go. This bullshit is yesterdays propaganda, lad!Jul 19, 17:33
    • Aidan on The Pillars Of Sanity: “@Alf – but isn’t that exactly what has happened, look at who are the hero’s in this story. The U.K.…Jul 19, 17:27
    • William G Walker on The Pillars Of Sanity: “Dear Rev, I’m pleased that your “report of victories” got a first-class response from all your fans! It must take…Jul 19, 17:21
    • Lorn on The Pillars Of Sanity: “Great piece, Rev. I do hope that you, with all the other people who placed their heads above the parapet…Jul 19, 17:13
    • Alf Baird on The Pillars Of Sanity: “A widna haud ma breith on any UK state quango protecting the rights of Scots, though she may learn something…Jul 19, 17:06
    • Peter McAvoy on The Pillars Of Sanity: “Well done to everybody who refused to accept and challenged this woke fascism and to the deserved victories you have…Jul 19, 16:22
    • Ian le coup on The Pillars Of Sanity: “DEI Diversity Equality Inclusivity is an absolute and utter con, created by the woke by the woke. DEI must DIE!!!Jul 19, 15:57
    • sarah on The Pillars Of Sanity: “Somewhere, over the rainbow… there is a happy land of sanity where children and women, and their supporters, can live…Jul 19, 15:53
    • Marie Clark on The Pillars Of Sanity: “Well done Stuart, you’ve been in this fight for a long time and it’s nice to see the outcome now.…Jul 19, 15:49
    • panda paws on The Pillars Of Sanity: “However deranged this week has been, I have every faith that next week will be the gift that keeps on…Jul 19, 15:47
    • agent x on The Pillars Of Sanity: “Meanwhile I am really enjoying watching the beautiful talented women playing in the EURO’s 25 without seeing big bollocked men…Jul 19, 15:45
  • A tall tale



↑ Top