Infrequently Asked Questions
The Wee Blue Book is extremely close to finished now, readers. We’re just buffing the corners. But we thought you might like to get a head start on one bit of it.
As well as trying to answer all the reasonable and sensible questions that undecided or No voters might have of the Yes side, the book will encourage them to ask a few tricky ones of their No representatives too, because we’ve been waiting two-and-a-half years for the media to do it with no luck.
But as you’ve been so awesome at writing to your MPs and MSPs before, enabling us to (for example) shed some cruelly harsh light on the full shambolic incoherence of Labour’s devolution plans, it seemed only fair that you got to have a go first.
So if you’re in the mood, why not fire a polite email or letter to your local Labour, Conservative or Lib Dem MP and/or MSP today with the following questions in it, and see what you get back? You can easily find and contact your local Westminster and Holyrood representatives via WriteToThem.com.
1. Does Scotland – including its oil revenues, of course – contribute a larger share of the UK’s income than the share of UK spending it gets? (And I mean the SHARE, not the AMOUNT – debt which has to be paid back doesn’t count as “spending”.)
2. Regardless of whether YOU think it would be a good idea or not, is it true to say that an independent Scotland could continue to use Sterling as its currency if it chose, no matter what happened?
3. Your campaign keeps saying that independence would make our family and friends in the rest of the UK “foreigners”. Even if we accept that’s true, what’s wrong with foreigners? Would you love your granny or your nephew or your sister any less if they became “foreign”? If not, why does it matter?
4. In your view, would the rUK really build and patrol a 100-mile long physical barrier of some sort across the border if an independent Scotland had a different immigration policy? (Because obviously road checkpoints alone couldn’t stop illegal immigrants, who’d simply cross on foot.) And if so, what would you estimate as the construction, manning and maintenance costs of such a barrier?
5. The McCrone Report was kept from the Scottish public by successive Labour and Conservative governments for 30 years to prevent them knowing how rich Scotland would be if it were independent. Are you aware of any similar documents relevant to the independence debate which are currently designated secret?
6. If I vote No in September, can you guarantee that in five years’ time Scotland will still be in the EU?
7. If I vote No, can you guarantee that in 10 years’ time Scotland will still have a fully publicly-funded NHS?
8. If I vote No, can you guarantee that the “Barnett Formula” used to calculate the Scottish Government block grant will still be in force by 2020 and set at the same proportions?
9. What will be the approximate set-up/annual costs of the tax-collecting bureaucracy your party plans to implement in the event of a No vote?
10. In the event of a Yes vote, will the UK government have an obligation to pay the pensions of everyone in Scotland who has ALREADY qualified for the UK state pension, as would be the case if current pensioners emigrated to (say) Spain or France or Australia? I’m not interested in the Scottish Government’s position on the matter, I want to know what the UK government’s responsibilities are.
11. Is Scotland a country or a region?
If you’ve got any good suggestions for other ones, let us know in the comments and we’ll add them to the book.
Who’s the Prime Minister of Scotland?
How the hell did that happen?
Like it – some nice trick questions in there too that will send them spinning, in all senses of the word.
Terrific
Just as good would be to hand them out to the occasional Better Together canvasser or street group and give them a couple of days to get the answers back to you. That should keep them off the streets for a bit.
Is Johann Lamont really the best you’ve got?
Do you accept that Scottish votes in a UK wide election do not have any determining factor in the outcome of an election? If so would this happen in an in/out EU referendum?
Damn electoral calculus that leaves me represented almost entirely by the SNP! And I didn’t even vote for them, next time though Alex, next time. Oh and I did vote SNP in the Europeans, even though you never really campaigned.
These (pinched from somewhere but can’t now remember from where): link to reportingthereferendum.blogspot.co.uk
“is it true to say that an independent Scotland could continue to use Sterling as its currency if it chose, no matter what happened?”
I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise are they?
Of course Scotland could continue to use sterling unofficially outside a currency union if we want.
But the fact is that if we did we would have no central bank to act as lender of last resort and therefore we would be unable to become a member of the EU.
The more relevant question would be ‘is it true that Scotland could form a currency union with rUK no matter what happened’ – the answer is of course no.
““is it true to say that an independent Scotland could continue to use Sterling as its currency if it chose, no matter what happened?”
I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise are they?”
Er, yes they are. “Better Together” literature constantly repeats that a Yes vote is a vote to walk away from the pound. We collected numerous examples a while back.
I can’t believe you didn’t use the “Why are you such a cock?” question I suggested for constituents of certain MPs.
“If I vote No in September, can you guarantee that in five years’ time Scotland will still be in the EU?…If I vote No, can you guarantee that in 10 years’ time Scotland will still have a fully publicly-funded NHS?”
Of course not, nothing is guaranteed about the future.
But likewise there’s no guarantee or certainty that if we vote yes Scotland will still be in the EU or still have a fully publicly-funded NHS.
What odd questions.
“But likewise there’s no guarantee or certainty that if we vote yes Scotland will still be in the EU or still have a fully publicly-funded NHS.”
Indeed there isn’t. Yet the No campaign constantly demands certain answers on those and at least 500 other issues.
12. Why are unionists habitual liars?
Cut out the first ten, Rev; the important one, and the one which may decide it all is number 11.
Is Scotland a country or a region?
4. Hardly that different an immigration policy if we’re only looking to create the extra 2000 jobs needed, I’m sure some of our friends south of the border will make up the additional 5 workers a day without gunpoint guerilla guards required.
12. Are you prepared to answer all these questions whilst hooked up to a lie detector live on air?
Dear Pamela Nash,
I have previously written to you on a few occasions and have yet to receive a reply to my correspondence. Since Scotland is currently in the UK and as my elected UK represntative and being a constituent of yours. I would be obliged if I could get an answer to the following questions. If you do not feel able to answer them yourself I am sure there would be some one more senior in your party that could do this for you. I look forward to your response.
I think 6, 7 and 8 are key here as they will highlight the fact that voting no is not voting to keep things as they are. Too many no voters are complacent about this.
And by politely reminding folk of this, also the opportunity to get rid of Trident, we can really make a difference. My no-leaning other half told me last night that he would be voting yes, so we had a toast to Scotland.
How about
“On independence, will Scotland regain total control of all rights and revenues from its geographical share of the seas surrounding it, in line with the agreements of UNCLOS”
Magic, can’t wait until the wee book comes out.
In the meantime, I will be busy sending all of these questions to Jenny Marra.
A couple of days ago my young son and I had a great time putting W.O.S, Bella and Wee Ginger Dug on all of the ipads in our local Apple store. We then did the same on all the tablets in the local big Tescos. What fun!
Questions sent to Alex Johnstone.
12. Better together claim that the privatisation of the NHS in England and Wales will have no effect on the block grant funding. Can you guarantee that the current apportionment for the NHS in the block grant will not change?
You been reading my mind Stu?
I have a couple of applications to send in to the BBC and ITV for a couple of televised debates they are holding in August you’ve given me something to think about with these questions. One question I am giving serious consideration to is about what they think is a better use of their £100 Billion Trident replacement spend? Do they think it is better to spend £100 Billion on replacing a white elephant of a W.M.D. or would that money not be better spent on Schools, Hospitals, and FOOD BANKS!
Can you tell us how Scotland benefits from the Union without using the words: Better, Together, Best, Both, Worlds?
Would Scotland, no longer being part of the UK, be relinquished from the UK USA Extradition Treaty of 2003. A treaty setup under the guise of prevention in terrorism, but has in fact been used to pursue the likes of Gary McKinnon for embarrassing the US military over their lack of adequate IT Security, and also the Natwest three after the Enron collapse?
Serious Questions:
What is the Better Together plan when Alistair Darling cannot make the debates with Alex Salmond?
Will they call off or will they put forward a Deputy?
What is in the contract/agreements with STV and BBC if BT call off, can we have am empty chair?
Given that the No Campaign have been proven to be liars and gross embellishers (Dunleavy) and the head of the campaign likened 40% of Scots to Nazis, why should we believe or take seriously anything you now say?
Pedants like me will suggest that QQ 6-8 should be framed as ‘In the event of a No vote….’ rather than ‘If I vote No….’
“But likewise there’s no guarantee or certainty that if we vote yes Scotland will still be in the EU or still have a fully publicly-funded NHS.”
Well Juncker’s recent comments have underlined the fact that Scots cannot be kicked out the EU by the EU, but if they wanted out they can always choose to do so in a referendum. As for the NHS, it will remain in public hands if its written into the constitution.
Send email to local MP, and wait for tumbleweed to drift past leisurely.
I think we will be lucky to even get an acknowledgement, let alone an answer.
I have Danny Alexander (I didn’t vote for him) but I am looking forward to a response, I also want to know what he is doing personally to ensure the paedophiles and their enablers in Westminster are being exposed for their crimes.
BTW Stu, this may be fun but you know all we are going to get is obfuscation, if we get any response at all. We know they are pushing lies and distortions, they know it too except to them ends justify means and it’s just ‘campaign rhetoric’ anyway. Getting them to admit this achieves what exactly?
By pretending you don’t know this you actually look naive.
And finally, even if you get some exasperated SLAB MSP to admit something, how exactly is that going to be disseminated to those voters who just get their info from the MSM? you think political hacks are going to jump on it?
So seriously, what is the point of this other than bread and circuses for us readers?
“BTW Stu, this may be fun but you know all we are going to get is obfuscation, if we get any response at all.”
You never know until you ask. We got results on Devo Nano, why not this?
That’s mine sent off to Murdo Fraser, I’ll let you know if I get a reply.
“Yet the No campaign constantly demands certain answers on those and at least 500 other issues.”
Presumably that’s because the SNP constantly insist, including in their white paper, that those things ‘will’ happen, despite there being no certainty at all of that being the case?
“Presumably that’s because the SNP constantly insist, including in their white paper, that those things ‘will’ happen, despite there being no certainty at all of that being the case?”
I don’t give a fuck what the SNP do or don’t insist.
Will Scottish MPs still receive their pensions like the rest of us in an independent Scotland?
If you gain power in an independent Scotland, will you set up a House of Lords? What will happen to the current peers who have Scottish titles?
What will happen to all the second homes in and about London?
@ Edinburgh Dave, what does lender of last resort actual mean, why does Scotland have to have one, and who exactly is your Scottish lender of last resort protecting, HBOS is owned by Loyds etc?
“But the fact is that if we did we would have no central bank to act as lender of last resort and therefore we would be unable to become a member of the EU.”
Not expecting a reply Edinburgh Dave but if you do, can you also tell us where exactly in EU membership rules or law, it says member states must have central bank, be lenders of last resort?
Take your time Dave, my Slovene bettertogether girlfriend rants on and on about Scotland not allowed in EU with central bank and lender if last resort, just like you but never has any stuff like facts n shit.
“yes they are. “Better Together” literature constantly repeats that a Yes vote is a vote to walk away from the pound”
Presumably what they mean is a yes vote is a vote to leave the sterling currency system and the central bank that manages it, which is true – unless a currency union can be agreed of course.
1 We know that your preference is for Scotland to be a part of the UK.However what is your second preference: an independent Scotland part of the EU or Scotland part of the UK but outside the EU?
2 How can you guarantee that Sterling will be the currency of the UK in ten years?
3 The Royal Navy surface fleet (19) is a third of what it was 20 years ago. At that rate of contraction over the next twenty years it will be smaller than the Danish Navy. What guarantees can you give that this will not happen?
4 If the UK government decideds to scrap or not repalce Trident at the next defence review what guarantee can you give that Faslane will not be closed ?
5 Do you think the open border with the Ireland should be maintained?
6 If there are Border controls and no currency union between Scotland and rUK why are Lidl and Aldi so relaxed about Independence?
7 How would the EU manage in practice to deny 5 million Scots their EU citizenship? What would it cost the EU? How would the EU protect the 800,000 non Scottish EU citizens in Scotland who would cease to have the right to reside here and the thousands of EU citizens who study here who would then be liable for tuition fees? Who would pay the net contribution that Scotland makes to the EU budget?
8 Will you stay in Scotland in event of a YES vote?
9 Given that mortgage lenders view Scotland as a lower risk place than other parts of the UK as our house prices and mortgage loan to value is less and many lenders offer currency mortgages what evidence do you have that lenders will cease to lend or charge a premium rate in the event of Independence and no currency union?
10 Do you support before the Referendum the Electoral Reform Soicety conducting a secrwet poll of Scottish born and/or based service personnel to establish how many would wish to transfer to the Scottish Defence Force on Independence if their terms and conditions of service were guaranteed ?
Nice too see the Rev, the man who slagged the Commonwealth Games opening ceremony copy their idea…a rambling awkward start then right into the heart of the matter.
The opening and end questions wont get answered, to be honest you will be lucky if any get answered but as Anne points out, 6,7,8 are the main ones, the rest are too long and/or rather flippant and will be totally dismissed out of hand.
I expect 6,7 and 8 to be answered with a “Regardless of how its better we’re better together!”…No facts, no figures, just hand waving dismissive patronising pap.
“I expect 6,7 and 8 to be answered with a “Regardless of how its better we’re better together!”…No facts, no figures, just hand waving dismissive patronising pap.”
…which will, of course, be the answer in itself.
In the event of a ‘No’ vote, will revenues from Oil in Scottish waters continue to be spent outside of Scotland?
@Dave McEwan Hill
“Just as good would be to hand them out to the occasional Better Together canvasser or street group”
In truth ‘Scottish Wild Cats’ are more conspicuous than that lot in my area; though someone spotted a big red ‘Labour Bus’ that stopped for 30mins or so where the occupants got off and ‘talked amongst themselves’ taking selfies and then sped off when the locals did not seem interested. (Think it was Jim ‘Brit’ Murphy that scared them off)
Sorry to put a slight dampener on this, but Gordon Brown’s lack of an apology after his humiliation over the NHS issue shows that the Unionists will not engage, but rely on the MSM/EBC to bury bad news. So MPs and MSPs won’t feel they have to reply to letters, in fact they will probably mount a campaign against crazed cybernats bullying them! Hope I’m wrong.
O/T—I attended an event in Leith organised by the SSP, which included two brilliant speeches by Jim Sillars and Colin Fox. If these speeches could be beamed into every home it would be a walkover. Big crowd too.
Here’s a number(12): Having such strong anit-indipendance views would you feel able to continue working as an MSP or would you feel obliged to resign your position on principle grounds?
If I vote No, can you guarantee that the tories will not punish us for having the tenacity to stage Referendum, should they be in power after the election in 2015?
I am seriously thinking of sending this letter to my MP, a Mr McCann. Do I think he will actually answer it. NO!
If he doesn’t respond my Plan B would be to send it to the local newspaper. At one time they may have published it, but now? Not so sure.
… a Yes vote is a vote to walk away from the pound …
Further to the Rev’s response at 11.32, it is not just Better Together literature. David Cameron made the same statement during an interview yesterday in Shetland.
Yes, these are THE questions we need answers to. Good for challenging anyone who try to justify a No.
Q12 [or whatever we’re up to] If I vote No, how many years will it take to rid Scotland of WMDs?
[Hint – before or after Hell freezes over?]
1: The BB in BBC stands for British bias – True/False?
2: How many of the independent Commonwealth games countries have asked the UK Govt to take them back under control?
3: Whats makes Scottish Oil so bad?
4: Do you understand the difference between these cows and those cows far away?
[…] « Infrequently Asked Questions […]
We need answers!
Alistair Darling and his togetherists are asking Scots to take an emotional leap of faith with no future vision of what ensues.
“can you also tell us where exactly in EU membership rules or law, it says member states must have central bank”
Sure:
“Each Member State shall ensure that its national legislation including the statutes of its national CENTRAL BANK is compatible with the Treaties and the Statute of the ESCB and of the ECB” – Article 131 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union”.
And here’s a quote specifically about Scotland:
“Scotland could use sterling or another currency on a ‘dollarized’ basis (though this might only be a theoretical possibility, as it would need to be squared with the requirement of EU membership to have a central bank).”
link to sfe.org.uk
“Sure:”
So the answer is in fact no, you CAN’T “tell us where exactly in EU membership rules or law, it says member states must have central bank”? Because neither of your quotes do such a thing.
I’m sure my, (well liked in Scotland), MP will be prompt and forth, or perhaps even fifthcoming with serious and true answers.
Did I mention his name is Dr James Gordon Brown?
See you Jimmie!
in the event of a ‘No’ vote, who will the next Scottish Prime Minister of the UK be?
Just saw this on Twitter and thought of another question.
In the event of a YES win in September will the staff at BBC Scotland in Glasgow still be required to call a help centre in England to get permission to open their blinds.?
This is the story in the Scotlsman.
link to tinyurl.com
Well clearly Edinburgh Dave, my Slovene girlfriend etc haven’t the faintest idea what they’re talking about SO, does anyone anywhere know what EU membership rules/law states no country can be an EU member without a central bank and a lender of last resort?
No UKOK tub thumpers please
The informal use of Sterling by an independent Scotland does not preclude the creation of a national (or central) bank.
“Well Juncker’s recent comments have underlined the fact that Scots cannot be kicked out the EU by the EU”
Its not about being ‘kicked out’ – its about Scotland applying to become a member of the EU and the likelihood (or otherwise) that the application would be turned down, or that one of the other EU members would vote against it.
As long as we have a central bank there should be no problem with our application.
And presumably the other EU members will be happy to agree to our appliction as long as we don’t demand opt outs and rebates which no other new applicants get, and things like the right to discriminate against citizens of other EU states by charging them to study here while letting our own citizens do so for free (which no other EU states are allowed to do, and which is in breach of the EU’s key defining principle).
If your granny is already a foreigner will she be the same level of foreigner or will her head just explode?
Edinburgh Dave thinks they are odd questions. I suppose a dismisal is easier than trying to answer them. The unionist chant “We need answers” – So do we!
O/T 5 days without Wi-Fi depending on MSM. You can see how the would have won this debate without the Internet.
It is worse than I thought for bias when you have no alternative!
Yes absolutely there is no certainty about what will happen after a Yes or a No vote but at least with a Yes vote we’ll be in charge of trying to make the best outcome from what will happen.
Without the benefit of Whitehall and Westminster we’ll stand a sporting chance, to be topical if O/T
“does anyone anywhere know what EU membership rules/law states no country can be an EU member without a central bank”
I just told you – Article 131 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
SHOCK HORROR NEWS HEADLINE: “Jackie Ballie Ate My Scotty Dog”
Scottish MP Jackie Baillie on Twitter: “Just love the Scottie dogs! Can I have one please?”
That was a big mistake!
Edinburgh Dave, I believe we can use the Scottish Treasury as a lender of last resort…thereby borrowing on our vast assets.
It’s actually a better way of doing things, rather than getting into the mess the uk gov and many others have done.
Edinburgh Dave
I have the leaflet in which the Better Together campaign says explicitly in big letters that an independent Scotland can’t use the pound. This in fact is a lie.
I also have the White Paper (you obviously don’t)in which the SNP does not insist that anything “will happen” but lays out a vision of what the SNP thinks what would be best for Scotland and the reasons why that is the case. That is what all political parties do.
“Each Member State shall ensure that its national legislation including the statutes of its national CENTRAL BANK is compatible with the Treaties and the Statute of the ESCB and of the ECB” – Article 131 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union”.
Thanks Edinburgh Dave. Read your own cut n paste though and the word “shall”. “Each member state shall ensure” meaning this is a process of membership and not a clause to exclude a country from the EU or refuse said country’s application to the EU, unless you’re the BBC or a British nationalist campaigning to stop Scottish independence.
Or Dave, what happens to Scottish EU citizenship in the event of Scottish independence?
“The informal use of Sterling by an independent Scotland does not preclude the creation of a national (or central) bank.”
Are you sure you know what a central bank is?
The main functions of a central bank are to issue currency and exercise control and oversight over that currency – which currency exactly would Scotland’s theoretical ‘central bank’ issue currency for and oversee if we were using sterling informally?
Why does no other country which uses a currency informally (Panama for example) have its own central bank if that is the case?
I don’t normally engage with disruptive trolls but perhaps Dave can tell us on what date Scotland will find itself not a member of the EU.
How do we go about ordering a copy of this Blue Book of which you speak?
I’ve been lurking here regularly for the last few months, but hadn’t heard about this until now.
cheers – chris
“How do we go about ordering a copy of this Blue Book of which you speak?”
Just stand by. Not long now 🙂
Here is one I have been asking for a while and I would really like to know the answer. “In the event of a yes vote what currency does your party propose for an independent Scotland”.
Do you believe that after a YES vote, Scotland will be a successful independent country?
I would amend the NHS question to:
‘If I vote No, can you guarantee that in 10 years’ time Scotland will still have a fully publicly-funded NHS free at the point of service?
Would you accept wholly the result of the referendum if the YES vote wins by whatever measure beyond 50% (such as 50.1%)?
In the event of NO vote how much of Scotland’s annual block grant will be cut by 2017 and 2020 respectively?
“Each Member State shall ensure that its national legislation including the statutes of its national CENTRAL BANK is compatible with the Treaties and the Statute of the ESCB and of the ECB” – Article 131 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union”.
To me that implies if it has one after the words “Central Bank”; ie a country cannot have a Central Bank which does not comply. Is there a separate section which says that there must be a Central Bank?
Is Edinburgh Dave here in place of wee Duggie as he was off working so hard at last nights Commonwealth Games?
He fair suited those wee coats with the countries name on them.
Can I get a passport frae Belfast.
Can the ancient borders of Scotland be controlled by Belfast.
Can we, in Scotland, pay tax to build and supply jets for the new RAF Base in Ulster – before And after RAF Leuchars is closed in Dec.
AFTER the IndyRef.
Can we have the oldest Scottish regiment in the British Army – permanently based in Ulster.
Can we ensure that the Headquarters of Clyde Coastguard remains in Belfast.
ALL the above is already in place – thanks to Gordon, Alisdair, BamCam and Clegg.
How many athletes in the CW Games have their PASSPORTS issued by a foreign country.
Their borders controlled by a neighbour ?
Ludicrously, Scots buy tickets to advertise their humiliation to a worldwide AUDIENCE.
Refunds will be welcome at every FOODBANK.
@ Edinburgh Dave
Are you sure you know what a central bank is?
No central bank in the eurozone issues currency, and control and oversight of the euro is with the ECB. So on your definition far from requiring a central bank no country in the eurozone actually has one.
But they do 🙂
So how many Yes voters would it take to cast, engrave and put up a brass plaque “Central Bank of Scotland”? How long would it take for the Parli to pass a law requiring the statutes of the aforementioned Bank to be compatible with the Treaties and the Statute of the ESCB and of the ECB?
@ Edinburgh Dave, nice deflection Dave, ok so you and my Slovene girlfriend, interpret EU law and rules to mean Scotland is not getting EU membership without lender of last resort or a central because britnats like you have read EU law and decided, so there etc and just like the whole of Bliar MacDougal’s bettertogther fear machine.
But Edinburgh Dave, what happens to Scottish EU citizenship after Scottish independence Dave?
Looks like the recently barred “Duggie” has wormed his way back in as “Edinburgh Dave”, cluttering up threads with the same morbid, repetitive pish, don’t get out much do you “Dave”? Ever kissed a girl?
I think 7 needs to be more specific.
7. If I vote No, can you guarantee that in 10 years’ time Scotland will still have a fully publicly-funded NHS?
Technically the answer to this question will always be yes. A collection of private health services (under the banner of the NHS) with a get-sick-pay-now business model is still publicly-funded in the strictest sense.
A better question might be:
7. If I vote No, can you guarantee that in 10 years’ time Scotland will still have a fully publicly-funded NHS where healthcare is free at the point of delivery?
Remember, politicians are slippery folk. They will leap on any ambiguity in a question.
In the event of a NO vote can you guarantee that shipyards on the Clyde will still be building ships beyond the Type 26 Frigate contract.
I found wee Duggie
link to news.bbcimg.co.uk
Panama does have a national bank.
The remit of Central banks extends into regulatory and oversight of commercial banks. They can also act as lender of last resort.
The BoE failed in its regulatory duty and was unable to act as lender of last resort. It therefore failed in its prime purpose. It was national governments (or tax payers) that propped up banks.
A state owned national bank of Scotland can fulfill these functions. It can do no worse than the BoE.
@ Edinburgh Dave
The National Bank of Panama and the Caja de Ahorros, are both owned by the Panamanian government.
1) In the event of a No vote, how will the enhanced powers of our national parliament compare to the powers enjoyed by subnational bodies in comparable countries such as Swiss Cantons, American states and German Lander?
2)When Ireland gained its independence the enabling Act of Parliament stated that Ireland should not be seen as foreign. Would Scotland, despite its long and peaceful union with England and the substantial cross border seeding of their respective populations, be seen as foreign?
3)A representative democracy should be a parliament of the people, for the people. Is the United Kingdom a representative democracy? How advanced and longstanding are the plans for House of Lords reform?
O/T Massive boost for YES camp
link to theguardian.com
Central banks remit is to maintain ‘stability’. Obviously the BoE failed miserably in this.
Personally I would rather see a move away from the pound although we are free to use it. Even after the recession of 2008 virtually no regulation has taken place of the banks which is criminal.
Recommend folk watch the following video about how money and banks actually work. It really amounts to theft.
link to positivemoney.org
Can you guarantee surface warships in Scottish waters, the only ones here now have yet to be launched. Border posts work both ways, anyone looking like a service person heading for Coulport or Faslane may be denied entry at the border, they will need to ferry them in by submarine.
The main functions of a central bank are to issue currency and exercise control and oversight over that currency – which currency exactly would Scotland’s theoretical ‘central bank’ issue currency for and oversee if we were using sterling informally?
HUH?
I am obviously missing something here but reading that I would have to say that if we were using sterling informally then our *ahem* “central” bank would be issuing currency in sterling! Only my thoughts on this point but I thought it was pretty damned obvious there again it is only I, the WOS village idiot here so what the hell do I know? 😛
Okay let’s look at it logically.
The EU’s own treaty explicitely states that “Each Member State shall ensure that its national legislation including the statutes of its national CENTRAL BANK is compatible with the Treaties and the Statute of the ESCB and of the ECB” – the presumption, obviously, is that members have a central bank.
The European System of Central Banks (Article 127 of the Treaty) which is made up of the ECB and the central banks of those members not in the eurozone – has the primary function to “maintain price stability”.
link to lisbon-treaty.org
The national central banks “have a legal personality
(under the law of their respective country) which is separate from that of the ECB. At the same time, they are an integral part of the Eurosystem, which is responsible for price stability in the euro area; they operate in line with the ECB’s guidelines and instructions in the performance of the Eurosystem’s tasks”.
link to ecb.europa.eu
So, as we can see, central banks have a crucial role in the EU of maintaining price stability, and are an “integral part” of the EU, they also have a number of other important tasks outlined in the above link.
Let’s face reality – without a central bank a country effectively cannot become a member of the EU, and if it was allowed to apply to become one its application would probably be rejected by one or more of the current members who would obviously be worried that a new member without a central bank would seriously damage the “price stability” referred to above.
sorry for going o/t
Wings has been working wonders getting the facts about the need for food banks in this country and a few friends decided to do something about it. They recorded the song “Caledonia” and ALL sales go to the food banks .
The video is now online to watch at
/youtu.be/fMvboi_Wzc8?list=LLKZuVH_U1OPnZGBovpWPmdQ
And also at http://WWW.Caledonia2014.com
Paste and copy to see the video of how they went about recording and please buy so we cal all help the hungry in this country.
Dave
Youre done. Do one.
“I am obviously missing something here but reading that I would have to say that if we were using sterling informally then our *ahem* “central” bank would be issuing currency in sterling!”
You are missing something. We would be using sterling informally – the key word being informally – the Bank of England would not be ‘our’ central bank.
A country (such as Panama) using a currency unofficially cannot issue that currency.
So Bank of England would not be our central bank stops us from using sterling how exactly?
“Panama does have a national bank”
“The National Bank of Panama and the Caja de Ahorros, are both owned by the Panamanian government”
Panama doesn’t have a central bank. Do you understand the difference between a central bank and a national bank?
The Bank of Scotland and RBS are effectively Scotland’s national banks – they aren’t central banks.
Edinburgh Dave: “Are you sure you know what a central bank is?”
Well you apparently don’t, otherwise you’d know that Montenegro – which uses the Euro informally – has a central bank. So if they’re not prevented from having a central bank, why would Scotland?
Oh, and several of the countries that use the dollar informally mint their own coins, incidentally.
“And presumably the other EU members will be happy to agree to our appliction (sic) as long as we don’t demand opt-outs blah blah blah…”
It’s in everyone’s interests to make Scotland’s membership process as non-disruptive as possible. Scotland doesn’t actually need a specific Euro opt-out – as we’ve highlighted on WOS many times before – and the whole point of the Shengen Agreement is the abolition of border checks within the EU. Since we only have one border, letting us keep the Shengen opt-out is paradoxically more in keeping with the spirit of the agreement than forcing us to implement it.
“No central bank in the eurozone issues currency, and control and oversight of the euro is with the ECB. So on your definition far from requiring a central bank no country in the eurozone actually has one”
Er………the European CENTRAL BANK issues currency and controls and oversees that currency!
What on earth are you talking about?!
The central bank that the countries in the eurozone have is the ECB!
You did realise, didn’t you, that the ‘CB’ part stands for central bank?
Its also worth looking at the deregulated City where and whys they destroyed the economy and why same City of London has completely blocked any kind of EU regulation trying to prevent same super rich spivs doing it all again. Funny that
Or how much did Crash Gordon and the Flipper actually borrow to save the banks because same City worshipping Labour dudes keep project fearing us that Scotland is too small to cope with another 2008 bank crash/fraud.
So in Scotland we have Project Fear going you’re to small, safeness, strength, big boy clouts in ukok etc but real world stuff is very different
link to theguardian.com
“Initial verdict
The Treasury has pledged to spend £1.2 trillion on the bail-out since the crisis began. But the real outlay has been much smaller. By March it was committed to spending £456.33bn: £123.93bn in loan or share purchases, which required an actual cash injection from the government to the banks, and £332.4bn in guarantees and liabilities. It costs taxpayers up to £5bn a year just to service the loan that the crisis incurred.
In cash terms the UK government has so far spent £123.93bn, but it has at various points since the crisis began been exposed to a sum 10 times larger.”
All under the command of future Lord Gordon Brown of Kirkaldy, currently lying to Scotland about organ transplants, via BBC in Scotland, as per.
Scotland can use sterling informally *and* have a state-owned National Bank. One of it’s prime responsibilities could include ensuring the stability of domestically registered commercial banks.
I am tired of people who trot out various positions that imply Scotland is uniquely incapable of establishing or running something.
just wow!
David Cameron – ‘I absolutely agree that in the closing weeks of this campaign we should make the arguments about what the United Kingdom has done in the past – everything from defeating the Nazis to inventing the health service – and we will make the arguments about what we can do in the future
I cant wait to hear the case for the future…do our local MPs know whats in store?
“I also have the White Paper (you obviously don’t)in which the SNP does not insist that anything “will happen””
You obviously haven’t read it yet then. In Salmond’s preface right at the beginning he explicitely states that:
“We WILL work in partnership with the rest of the UK to share the pound for our mutual benefit”
“We WILL continue to work in partnership with the rest of the UK in defence alliances”
“We WILL work in partnership with the rest of the UK inside the European Union”
Is that enough ‘wills’ for you?
I see we have someone looking to plug the ‘won’t get into the EU line”………like a zombie resurrected from the dead and going full on in spite of the evidence.
We are already EU citizens with FULL rights. That is bestowed to us as Individuals, not as a country or because of who happens to run our government at any given time.
We don’t get the right to remain an EU citizen ‘lent’ to us by David Cameron, or whomever happens to be in charge at westminster.
I mean to say ‘Dave edinburgh” reckons we have a ‘new’ reason due to some irrelevant bank bollocks to be worried about ‘continuing’ (remember that word) European citizenship.
“A “high-ranking EU official” that Mr Juncker “would not want Scotland to be kept out” as it already met ALL of the criteria for membership.
It quoted the official as saying: Mr Juncker “would be sympathetic as someone who is from a smaller country as he’ll understand the obstacles that can be put in the way of less powerful member states.”
The official was also quoted as saying an independent Scotland would be treated as a DIFFERENT case to other candidates for EU membership, such as Albania, Iceland, Montenegro, Serbia, Turkey and Macedonia.”
So two years of hearing the westminster drones say “Scotland will go to the back of the queue’ (Darling, Carmichael, er Andrew Marr etc) or will have to renegotiate all criteria as ‘….a new’ EU country” is total bollocks and has been used only as a scare tactic hoping to dupe some undecided voters or soft no types.
I mean to say, having some dodo come on here just to reiterate lies about ‘EU uncertainty” for an Independent Scotland, uncertainty that has been spectacularly blown out the water by recent events, shows that better together drones just reuse old failed materiel, like some sort of arch unionist paul daniels.
“Montenegro – which uses the Euro informally – has a central bank”
Montenegro is not an EU member, and the Central Bank of Montenegro is not an issuing bank and does not participate in the European System of Central Banks or in ECB meetings.
The Scottish government has indicated its displeasure at zero hour contracts. If I vote NO, can you guarantee zero hour contracts will be proscribed by Westminster.
@edinburgh dave
Reading the deeds for my house. “Boundary hedges shall be no more than one metre in height”. Does that mean as I have a fence rather than a hedge I have to move to another estate?
@ Edinburgh Dave, appreciate your trying but this alone is nonsensical
“Let’s face reality – without a central bank a country effectively cannot become a member of the EU, and if it was allowed to apply to become one its application would probably be rejected by one or more of the current members who would obviously be worried that a new member without a central bank would seriously damage the “price stability” referred to above.”
We are already EU citizens Dave, so what does your argument “application would probably be rejected by one or more of the current member” stand on?
Scotland is not applying for EU membership, Scotland is not voting to leave the EU 18th Sept. UK.gov know full well Scotland is an EU country, the EU know Scotland is an EU country but, our noble and honest Westminster.gov refuse to even talk to the EU because they know exactly what the answer will be, Scotland is an EU country.
“Scotland can use sterling informally *and* have a state-owned National Bank”
Correct. No one is suggesting otherwise.
What Scotland cannot have if it uses sterling informally is a central bank with the power to issue currency or to regulate and oversee that currency – which is the key point and the reason why Scotland would be unable to join the European System of Central Banks and therefore very unlikely to be able to become an EU member.
Of course the informal use of Sterling could be a stepping stone to a free-floating Scottish Pound (the currency we already have with some wording changes, e.g. the “National Bank of Scotland promising to pay the bearer on demand the sum of …”
I personally see all bases as being covered:
1. Formal Currency Union (as proposed by Stiglitz and Mirrlees)
2. Informal use of Sterling (as backed by the Adam Smith Institute)
3. Independent Scottish currency.
O/T so apologies but I feel this should reach as wide an audience as possible.
I’m a long time lurker here but first post so hopefully I get this right
I’ve just donated £35 on the Yes Scotland page on behalf of our Croatian taxi driver who asked that his €35 fare from Split town to the airport be donated to our cause. I’d never met Pietro before, but in the course of a 20 minute taxi ride he took on board our passion, compared it (favourably) with the situation in former Yugoslavia and said he had goosebumps on his arms thinking about our situation. Why can’t everyone in this country see what outsiders can see – that we are uniquely privileged in having the chance to gain our independence without any blood being spilt.
Pietro – I salute you !!
PS Remember average wages in Croatia are approx. only half what they are here so Pietro’s contribution is doubly generous
“We are already EU citizens with FULL rights”
Correct, who is suggesting otherwise?
Try to learn the difference between individuals being EU citizens, and a sovereign state becoming a member of the EU.
Response from Alex Johnstone:
1. The last period for which full figures are available is the year ending 31st march 20133. In that year the UK as a whole ran a current budget deficit, including 100 per cent of North Sea revenue, of £91.9 billion (5.8% of GDP).
In the same year, with a full geographical share of North Sea revenue included, Scotland would have run a deficit of £12.1 billion (8.3% of GDP) .
link to scotland.gov.uk
2. If independent, Scotland could choose to use any currency it likes, including Sterling. Scotland is currently in a fiscal union with the rest of the United Kingdom. Separation would result in this fiscal union being terminated and Scotland would loose its right to participate in the decision making process of the Bank of England. Consequently, decisions would be made in the interests of the United Kingdom and not a separate Scotland.
3. I’m British – it matters to me.
4. If immigration rules differ significantly on either side of some future border, then that border will need to be policed. If one party is within the Schengen agreement and the other is not, then the European Union would require certain actions to be taken, such as those which currently happen between the UK and France for example.
5. Reports written by civil servants have no status until they have been adopted by the Government of the day. This report does not have the significance attributed to it by ‘yes’ campaigners.
6. There is likely to be a referendum on EU membership within 5 years. If Scotland remains within the Union, we will have the opportunity to participate in that decision. Five years may be long enough to negotiate a separate Scotland’s entry to the European Union, but there is no guarantee.
7. The NHS in Scotland has been fully devolved since the 1st of July 1999 and differs significantly from the service in the rest of the UK. All funding decisions are made by the Scottish Government and scrutinised by the Scottish Parliament.
8. The Barnett Formula is a function of the current funding arrangements. Separation will end the current arrangements. Scotland is already transitioning to a very different system where we raise the money we spend in Scotland through taxes we set in Scotland. This change will eventually render the Barnett Formula obsolete.
9. We had no plans to alter the current administrative arrangements. However, the Scottish Government have already initiated the process of duplication. The Revenue Scotland and Tax Powers Bill will establish ‘Revenue Scotland’ as the tax authority, responsible for collecting and managing the two devolved taxes – the Land and Buildings Transaction Tax and the Landfill Tax, when they come into operation on April 1, 2015. They have not yet told us what this will cost.
10. If Scotland becomes a separate country, responsibility so setting, and funding the state pension would transfer to the Scottish Government. Accrued pension rights in the armed forces, superannuation and other contributory schemes, both public and private, should be unaffected. However, many schemes are currently undercapitalised and may, at some time in the future, require to be topped up. Where that responsibility lies would have to be subject to negotiation. There are certain EU rules regarding pensions which may be difficult to meet in the event of separation.
11. Scotland is a country within the United Kingdom. It is already often referred to as a region of Europe. Ye pays yer money and ye takes yer choice.
I hope this is of help, and please get back to me if you have any further questions,
Alex Johnstone.
“We are already EU citizens Dave, so what does your argument “application would probably be rejected by one or more of the current member” stand on?”
Er….the fact, obviously, that individual people being citizens of the EU is nothing to do with whether a sovereign state would be able to become an EU member or not.
“Scotland is not applying for EU membership”
It will be if there’s a yes vote. Scotland is not currently an EU member state – it will need to apply to become one. Even the SNP have given up claiming it will “automatically” become one now.
@Edinburgh Dave
“Panama doesn’t have a central bank. Do you understand the difference between a central bank and a national bank?”
Shirty, shirty, and Yes I do, but you obviously don’t.
@rev Stu
“Just stand by. Not long now”
Thanks
“Scotland is an EU country, the EU know Scotland is an EU country”
What on earth are you talking about? There’s no such thing as an ‘EU country’, there are EU member states – Scotland is not an EU member state.
Scotland is no more a ‘member’ of the EU than Bavaria, Catalonia, Yorkshire or Cornwall – its status as a country is irrelevant in that regard.
@Rev Stu
Re: we got Devo Nano replies, why not this?
1. Because they wised up to this tactic then?
2. Because the answers are just clever tricksy stuff that are largely easily blown off or as others have said about 6, 7 & 8.
3. Some of these are tantamount to ‘have you stopped beating your wife’ type questions to someone in their positions. Remembering they have been threatened with deselection if they come out in favour of Yes, which honest answers to these as written pretty much require them to.
4. Considering you are in effect asking them to resign their positions and probably never get another unless Labour gets amnesia along with rediscovering their soul, they are unfair.
I don’t agree with SLAB MPs and MSPS but that doesn’t stop me having empathy for their situations if they are honest and rational people. Being a politician not infrequently requires you to support positions you abhor. That is one reason we have Whips in political parties. It is also why I have never joined a party or stood for election.
I repeat, by insisting on answers for these you are being obtuse/naive and lacking in empathy. Just because these people are SLAB pollies doesn’t mean they deserve this. We do not have to descend to reciprocal tribal hatred too.
Anyone sent these questions to Katy Clark yet?
Very tempted after her performance at the May Day rally earlier in the year…
@Heedtracker
Careful, I think Edinburgh Dave might be out to steal your Slovene girlfriend away with his BT-esque chat-up lines! 😉
Don’t know if this if this has been mentioned:
Do you know Scotland’s NHS is separate from the English NHS and has been for over 50 years.
On that note the Scottish government should be looking to rebrand SNHS as a separate.
Duggie
You dont need to reapply to the tennis club just cause you and the wife get divorced.
Now, either feck off or add something of benefit,even explaining why you support Independence yet hate Alex Salmond would even be better than your constant hijacking of threads.
Edinburgh Dave
Your comments are not popular on this site and I’m sure you know that and enjoy it. However, you do raise some valid points and rather than dismiss them I would prefer to try to answer them.
First, on Europe, it is clear that the mood music coming from Juncker suggests that the EU would find a way to ensure continuing Scottish membership. The defining characteristic of the EU is pragmatism – they “adjust” their rules to suit changing circumstances. Just look at what happened with the absorption of East Germany – they didn’t have to apply to join. Effectively West Germany just became bigger and the now united Germany was simply deemed to be the continuing member of the EU. This was far more disruptive to the EU than Scotland becoming independent. The Scottish situation will be different, but the German example illustrates how Europe deals in real politik. It is true that nobody – not the Scottish Government, not the EU Commission and not the Yes campaign can say exactly how this will be worked out. But remember also that there is no mechanism to expel a country from Europe – and anyway why would they want to? By far the most likely outcome is that Scotland will continue in the EU following negotiations.
On the Central Bank issue, there are two possibilities:
1. A formal currency union is formed. In this case the Bank of England would continue to act on behalf of rUK and Scotland.
2. No formal currency union is formed. This means that in all probability, Scotland will start with no debt. Scotland could therefore easily create its own central bank and without debt we could borrow on the markets as required. We would be a far better risk than rUK – we would have oil and no debt, they would have no oil and lots of debt. To whom would you prefer to lend money? Having access to the international money markets, Scotland’s newly created central bank would be able to fulfil its functions without difficulty.
Nobody is saying that a Yes vote will give us total clarity about the way forward for Scotland. But a No vote certainly does not do that either. And at least a Yes vote means that we can make our own decisions and figure out solutions for ourselves.
“Yes I do, but you obviously don’t”
If you apparently understand the difference between a national and a central bank why on earth, in response to my post pointing out that Panama doesn’t have a central bank, did you mention its national bank?
Very odd.
@ Edinburgh Dave, so you’re now saying that as a Scot, I am an EU citizen but my country will not in fact be an EU member on the 19th Sept 2014?
Come come Edinburgh Dave, its too late in the vote No prject fear campaign to keep pretending youre frightening a bunch of sheep, non EU sheep:D
Montenegro is not an EU member, and the Central Bank of Montenegro is not an issuing bank and does not participate in the European System of Central Banks or in ECB meetings.
So who issues the Euros that the Montenegrins use then?
What Scotland cannot have if it uses sterling informally is a central bank with the power to issue currency or to regulate and oversee that currency
Scotland has a Currency Union with England then we use the pound in a currency union with £4 Billion securities remaining with the Bank of England. Scotland does not have currency union with England then we still use sterling and REMOVE our £4 Billion securities from the Bank of England and place this in our own NEW Central Bank and carry on regardless of what you or anyone else in your Better Thanks/ NO Together/ Project Feart think or want!
@ Edinburgh Dave
Central Banks have different roles in different countries, and none of those roles have to be performed by a single entity called a Central Bank.
Currency can be issued directly by a treasury, regulation can be carried out by a dedicated body, bond market operations – OMO – can be eliminated by having the nation not issue bonds in the first place, and so on.
But in any case, it’s not true that no nation that lacks its own currency has a Central Bank. Ecuador does not have its own currency, it uses the US Dollar, but it does have a central bank. Its external surplus, thanks to oil, is what allows it to acquire that currency.
Which leads to…
@ Lesley-Anne
A Scottish central bank wouldn’t be able to issue sterling – creating new net financial assets denominated in sterling. Only the currency sovereign can do that, which in this case would be the rUK.*
As with Ecuador though, Scotland would likely run an external surplus, allowing it to acquire sterling, or any other currency. A Scottish currency is still a better idea though; external surpluses cannot be guaranteed.
* Some Scottish banks issue notes, but they don’t issue sterling, the currency itself; those notes must be backed by sterling issued by and held at the Bank Of England.
“You dont need to reapply to the tennis club just cause you and the wife get divorced”
Correct, if I’m already a member of it.
But, to further your analogy, if I’m part of the tennis club because my wife is a member and we then get divorced – I would obviously then have to apply to become a member myself.
Get it?
The Wee Blue Book aka ‘The Book of Brilliant Things’, (keepin’ it Glasgow like)
“East Germany – they didn’t have to apply to join”
That’s because they became part of an EU member – Scotland is doing the opposite.
“No formal currency union is formed. This means that in all probability, Scotland will start with no debt”
No it doesn’t. A currency union is not an obligation, a system of currency is not an ‘asset’.
“Scotland’s newly created central bank would be able to fulfil its functions without difficulty”
It wouldn’t be able to issue currency or control and regulate the currency we’d use – those are the key requirements of a central bank.
What Scotland cannot have if it uses sterling informally is a central bank with the power to issue currency or to regulate and oversee that currency – which is the key point and the reason why Scotland would be unable to join the European System of Central Banks and therefore very unlikely to be able to become an EU member.
Dave
A convoluted route to return to the same dull, bitter refrain that Scotland could never join the EU.
I don’t much care if we are in or out but anyone can see the EU is about compromise, fudge and expansion not hard and fast rules and contraction.
Scotland has zero chance of getting out the EU if Holyrood are up for it. All the rest is angels dancing on pinheads.
@ Edinburgh Dave, so no EU law, spout ukok jibberjabber
“But, to further your analogy, if I’m part of the tennis club because my wife is a member and we then get divorced – I would obviously then have to apply to become a member myself.”
The EU is not a tennis club, fine day for it though Edinburgh Dave
“so you’re now saying that as a Scot, I am an EU citizen but my country will not in fact be an EU member on the 19th Sept 2014?”
No, where did I say, or even suggest, anything of the sort?
If we vote yes in September we will still remain part of the UK (so thus also the EU) until March 2016.
Edinburgh Dave
Your tennis club analogy fails. It is based on an assumption that rUK is the member and Scotland is only a member because of our union with rUK. Not true – the EU member is the UK and no part is any more the member than any other. Arguably, if Scotland is thrown out (which it will not be), then rUK must be thrown out as well as neither is currently a member. Only the union is a member.
Ach, Stu some of these questions are inviting answers that could be sel-incriminating (once the truth is known…)
In all fairness, we should precede them with the caution: ‘You have the right to remain silent. Anything you do say will be taken down and may used in evidence (against you)!
@ Edinburgh Dave. after that terrible opening ceremony god save the queen non national anthem last night or picking Boyle and Rod Stewart out of so many wonderful Scots singers and musicians, all your ” BBC style this is fact, do what you’re told and shut up” stuff is long gone in the nation state of Scotland, Edinburgh Dave.
@Edinburgh Dave
But if I’m a good player and am reasonably flush and happy to pay fees and stuff and my absence from the club would cause problems, teams not having enough members half way through a season for eg. Then surely the membership secretary of the tennis club can find a way to enable me to continue to be a member by simple expedient of asking me personally for a full membership fee to support my now full membership?
Two can play with analogies. I used to be a professional analogy maker and I’m good at using them. So be careful.
Replies from Alex Johnstone:
“Separation would result in this fiscal union being terminated and Scotland would loose its right to participate in the decision making process of the Bank of England“
What right is that? Scotland has zero representation on the Monetary Policy Committee within the BoE.
His EU comment seems to be that Scotland will have the “right” to vote to remain within the EU while rUK takes us out!
“Scotland is a country within the United Kingdom” He just can’t seem to say it with no caveats.
Btw good to see FlimFlamMan – currency is right up his street.
@Independiente
Book of Brilliant Things…brilliant! Thats cheered me up after me taking the huff that Waterfront never got played last night!
@Edinburgh Dave
Is there actually any reason why Scotland really NEEDS to be a full member of the EU anyway?
There are other countries that have trade agreements with the EU through the European Free Trade Association, but are not full members of the EU.
And it’s pointless for BT/UKOK/Whatever-they-call-themselves-this-week to use EU membership as a reason for remaining in the UK when the UK themselves plan on holding a referendum for LEAVING THE EU (Too many workers’ rights there for Cameron and his Zero-hour contract buddies apparently!)
So if Scotland stays with the UK then there’s no guarantee of us remaining a member anyway.
In short – EU membership is a non-issue with regards to the independence referendum. Give it a rest!
A central bank is a reserve bank, it is based on the assets of a country.
Afghanistan Angola and the Bahamas have central banks, Northern bloody Cyprus has a central bank………..whether we have one or not is nothing to do with our current and continuing EU citizenship but having a central bank is not impossible christ almighty.
There is NOTHING within any European rule or law that can be done to remove EU citizenship for those born in Scotland simply because Scotland votes Yes, (or any other distractive bollocks) because that would mean my brother (born in England living in Scotland) would still be an EU citizen and yet by merely being born in Scotland I would have some sort of invented ‘second status’ and no longer be an EU citizen.
@ Murray McCallum
You can see my comment? I’m not seeing it.
@Edinburgh Dave
Get it?
I get that youre like the wee guy who is told for 50 years “England won the World cup” and you say “But that goal was offside!”
I see no point in you being here, shouting the same nonsense day after day. its neither productive or disruptive as people just yawn and say “Again, really?”
If you cant see that things will be worked out then you should go to Specsavers. Stop focusing on a single pixel and look at the picture as a whole.
@Edinburgh Dave says: 24 July, 2014 at 10:52 am:
“But the fact is that if we did we would have no central bank to act as lender of last resort and therefore we would be unable to become a member of the EU”.
Like all the usual Naysayers you seem rather ill-informed and also quite miss the point.
Allow me to enlighten you to a few true facts.
The old EEC treaty ended on the day the new EU treaty began. On that day every citizen of the old European Treaty became a citizen of the EU under the terms of the new treaty. Thus every living person who was then a citizen of the United Kingdom became a new citizen of the EU.
Thus the bipartite United KINGDOM citizens all became EU citizens at exactly the same moment. We Scots have thus been founder members of the EU as long as any other country’s citizens have been. Furthermore, as there are no EU laws, rules or mechanisms to expel citizens we will remain so unless we, individually or as a nation request to leave, (There are precedents).
Now consider the legality of the bipartite Treaty Of Union 1706/7. This treaty has two, equally sovereign signatories and they signed up as, KINGDOMS. There is not a single mention of the words country or countries in the entire Treaty. Nor is there any mention that the two sovereign kingdoms are other than equally sovereign.
Thus, being a bipartite union of equals, much like a marriage, when one partner legally ends the marriage they disunite and return to the immediate legal Status Quo Ante before they united. Ergo – two independent kingdoms each with an independent parliament.
Now, in 1707, the then Kingdom of England was composed of three countries. The English kingdom having annexed the princedom of Wales by the Statute of Rhuddlan, 1284. and annexed all Ireland by the, Crown of Ireland Act 1542. This is why neither annexed country was required to sign the treaty of union.
On a majority YES vote all treaties entered into by the United Kingdom will be relevant to both former partners. Not only that but nowhere is there mention of the false Better Together claim that the Bank of England has ever belonged to the Kingdom of England nor any allocation of shares by either partner along the lines of the current ratios of population. The BofE was created as a private company and remained so until 1946 when the UK, Not England, nationalised it.
The member state of the EU is legally actually Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth. You did know the word Kingdom refers to a royal realm didn’t you?
“If we vote yes in September we will still remain part of the UK (so thus also the EU) until March 2016.”
We will still be members in April 2016.
‘We’ (as in Scots born people) will still be EU citizens in April 2016 as the EU’s own rules prevent any other scenario unless dave has one he has made up.
EU citizenship isn’t dependent upon what country you were born in or what type of government your country votes to have, it is a guaranteed right equal to all.
O/T.
I hear Bradley Wiggans and his team mates are wearing union flag on their helmets. Surely this is against the rules?
FlimFlamMan – I can see it stamped as at 12:48
@ desimond, on balance though, Edinburgh Dave is merely parroting Project Fear stuff. He may aswell be any BBC or Better together shill or my Slovene girlfriend at Glasgow uni with very bizarre interpretations of EU law wording “shall ensure” means “mandatory” or this Scots are EU citizens but Scotland wont be travesty.
Mind Charles Kennedy or that Mundell clown stating openly on TV that Scotland is out of the EU on a pack of lies the BBC broadcast as fact.
“part of the tennis club because my wife is a member and we then get divorced”
C’mon “Duggie”, sorry “Dave” is it today? Why on earth would your wife want a divorce? I mean, its not as if you’re a boring, monotonous, pompous arse who thinks he’s right all the time, who probably thinks he’s Roger Federer on court, who constantly changes the subject at the dinner table to Alicsammin and the EU…
Start thinkin of your next monikor “Edinburgh Dave”, as the Rev will be along shortly to take your toys away…
Hmm, very interesting point there alex. No doubt a full investigation will be immediately carried out and the results announced shortly … Hold that thought news just in. David Cameron, chair of the investigating committee has confirmed that no rules have been broken. 😛
Not sure if people have seen this.
link to youtube.com
What the Scotland team were singing before they emerged.
Edinburgh Dave
You miss the point about East Germany. I did say that Scotland’s position will be different, but I mentioned the East German example as an example of how Europe takes a pragmatic approach to unprecedented circumstances. There is no reason to assume that a less pragmatic approach will be taken to Scotland’s (and rUK’s) position.
I’m not sure what point you are making when you say “A currency union is not an obligation, a system of currency is not an ‘asset’.” The point here is that the UK has stated, correctly, that the debt will belong to rUK in the event of Scottish independence. If Scotland voluntarily agrees to take on any of that debt, it will be in return for something we want – most likely a currency union. So we will either have a currency union and a share of the debt, or no currency union and no debt. Either way, we can live with it.
Get it?
Edinburgh Dave, the EU Treaty, Section 50, created a unique right to EU citizens that they cannot be deprived of their EU citizenship unless their own government invokes Section 50. The UK govt in the Treaty of Edinburgh agreed not to do so & of course the Scots Govt will not do so either. So as I am an EU citizen I cannot lose that right until my own government invokes the right to leave. It is a complete red herring that Scots can be excluded from the EU & I wish you and others like you, would stop pontificating upon subjects about which you either clearly no nothing or believe, misguidedly, everything you are told by Better Together & MSM.
@scottish_skier
Class, sheer class. I’ve forwarded this on to friends.
Hats off to them all S.S. They all seemed blown away by their reception last night and I’m sure singing that before entering the arena definitely lifted them as well. 😛
@scottish_skier
Brilliant!!!!!!
Scottish Skier
The Beeb missed a trick not being down at the entrance, they would have loved to have broadcast that.
😉
There is a poster on various websites who is a unionist troll. The individual appears to have take the names of Doris, Tellen (still on Guardian), NorseWarrior, Duggie, and now this Edinburgh Dave character. Now they might be different people, but it appears their modus operandi is the same; either pretend to support independence and be as abusive about the SNP and Salmond as much as possible, or just use the No campaign’s tired old debating points; often not even bothering to update them as the campaign goes on.
Am I on the naughty step Stu ?
Think I will have any luck with Charlie Kennedy?
Obv not.
I’ll try again…
Edinburgh Dave, maybe you would like to send a congratulations to the SFE Chairman Ewan Brown(ose)on his Knighthood.
link to sfe.org.uk
Whilst your at it, say hi to their Chief exec Owen Kelly OBE, an architect of Bitter T’gither.
“No it doesn’t. A currency union is not an obligation, a system of currency is not an ‘asset’.”
What is taking on 10% of the Uk’s whopping £1.5 TRILLION debt then dave, an asset or an obligation?
Depends on whether you are coming from dave’s ‘anyone but Scotland’ angle or my angle eh?
Give us peace.
Sent to Jim Sheridan including an additional section I added for him -:
On the bill regarding the welfare cap, you made a grand speech including the line “The experience today shows that the Tories are at their happiest and their loudest when they are attacking the poor and the vulnerable. I was reminded that the reason I came into politics was to take on such people.”. Very noble sentiments, but you then abstained! How on earth can you justify making a grand statement and then not follow it up by voting against the bill?
How petty is this
Michael Fallon, new Defence Sec, personally blocked request for Red Arrows to stream blue & white smoke at # commonwealthgames
Murray McCallum
Yes, I see it now too.
On a broader note, central bank or no, is EU membership such a prize? The TTIP is in some trouble, but it’s far from dead. And that’s on top of existing neoliberal aspects, not least the structure of the Euro.
scottish_skier. Great video. “be a nation again”
Lets hope we win lots, and someone has the bottle to pull a Yes stunt on the podium.
O/T Skint as per. Anyone going to PQ from anywhere near Gorebridge on Sunday ? Could do with a lift, or if you can put a couple of litres of juice in my car, i’ll do the driving.
Thanks for that link Scottish Skier.
Am already spreading it.
BTW: say hello to your Mum! 8=)
Edinburgh Dave
You quote
“Each Member State shall ensure that its national legislation including the statutes of its national CENTRAL BANK is compatible with the Treaties and the Statute of the ESCB and of the ECB” – Article 131 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union”.
Which part of the above statement says any individual country has to have a central bank?
@scottish_skier
Outstanding. 😀
FlimFlamMan
I remain pro EU as I think Europe’s future is independent sovereign countries working with a collective voice (hopefully for reason) in the world.
I read that public health services were to be specifically excluded from TTIP. This needs close scrutiny though.
I am increasingly sceptical about what seems to be the EU’s “foreign policy” in Eastern Europe. The EU seems to be getting too closely connected to US and NATO policy. I also do not like Washington publicly pushing the direction of EU policy.
I am not dogmatic about the EU. If the EU ceases to listen to its member states and citizens it will suffer the consequences. At the moment I think it offers more positives than negatives.
On topic.
Will you (fill in name) or your party ever publicly condemn the use of accusations/inferences of nazism and or xenophobia aimed at either the current Scottish Government or supporters of Scottish independence? Do you accept that these are reckless and dangerous remarks for anyone to make let alone elected representatives? Accepting that you have no control over the behaviour of the general public and or private individuals, will you or your party attempt to bring to bear penalties for those party members seen and proven to be spreading this form of abuse?
12. In the event of a Yes vote, if any companies threatened to leave Scotland because of that vote, would you try to argue they shouldn’t, and if so what arguments would you use?
13. If you accept that people can have both Scottish and British identities, what part of your British identity would you lose in the event of Independence?
Just watched the England cycling team, some with union jacks on their helmets. Confused.com
@ S.S.
Think that clip is going viral. Class!
1. Is it fair that British families have significantly less familiy rights to live in the UK than EEA families?
2. In the event of a no vote can you guarantee that British children and families in will continue to be protected by the European Convention of Human Rights, including right to private and family life, in 5 year times? Why do you not welcome the draft Scottish constitition which seeks to safeguard these family rights?
3. Why are human rights, democracy and rule of law ‘at the heart’ of UK foreign policy, but not domestic policy?
4. Are the UK’s immigration rules, specifically the January 2014 ‘centre of life’ regulations lawful and compatible with the with EU law?
5. Do you share the Immigration Minister’s ‘delight’ express in July 2014 that 4,000 British families will be split up as result of the Home Secretary’s immigration rules? Is it fair that these rules discriminate against British citizens who earn less than £18,600 and are married to someone from outside the EEA?
6. How can non-EEA citizens married to British partners be a ‘burden to the taxpayer’ if they pay for a visa application and are not entitled to public funds?
7. The Immigration Act 2014 places obligations on landlords in the UK for them to carry out immigration checks on their tenants. Can your party guarantee that British citizens who are married to someone who originates from outside the EU will not be discriminated against by landlords, when looking for rented accommodation from October 2014?
8. Why does the Family section on the http://www.youdecide2014.uk website not mention on the severe family restrictions of marrying a ‘foreigner’ who originates from outside the UK?
9. Does the phrase ‘better together’ also apply to British families, many with British children, who happen to have one foreign parent? Or is it better that they are seperated, depending on where they come from or how much they earn?
10. Given that immigration needs in Scotland are far different to those in South East England, will your party commit to devolving any immigration powers to the Scottish Parliament?
@Edinburgh Dave
Quote..” But the fact is that if we did we would have no central bank to act as lender of last resort and therefore we would be unable to become a member of the EU. ”
Please explain why the UK Government in the mid 70’s went cap in hand to the IMF for a multi billion $ loan.
Did that make the IMF Lender of last resort and not the BoE ?
Done!
Email to every MSP, MP and MEP for the Better Together Camp for the Lothian’s.
and I’m expecting the deafening sound of silence as my reply!
Rev Steve Webb the dwp pensions minister has already confirmed that Westminster would be responsible for pensions that are currently being paid if Scotland is independent.He has answered question 10
First reply from one of them.
‘I am currently on holiday and will return to the office on the 28th July.’
Do you truly believe it is a good Idea to base The UK’s Nuclear weapons so close to a major city?
I win. Edinburgh Dave is BrigadoonGent! I’ve had to put up with his pish tennis club analogy before. I knew there was something familiar about his attempts to scare.
What do I win?
Hooks last post has disappeared and im on 3g in belgium so not goiing to type long response
In the finanacial year alluded to by alex johnston scotkands share of over 4bn for qe interest payments and royal mail pension were not included so get him to recalculate relative deficit with same figures
Do you think it is acceptable for any MP to only turn up to represent his constituents only 14% of the time?
What will be the new pseudonym of the BT/VNB/NT/GCHQ team now Edinburgh Daveheart has been comprehensively rumbled? And how long before the next one is rumbled?
Given that they are putting their best minds into this it’s encouraging to see the reasoned and intelligent responses from WoS regulars.
I lost the will to live about 60% of the way through. Did Dave EVER actually come up with a line of EU law that says “member states must have a central bank”?
A simple yes or no will do.
“the EU member is the UK and no part is any more the member than any other. Arguably, if Scotland is thrown out (which it will not be), then rUK must be thrown out as well as neither is currently a member”
As has been explained numerous times previously, rUK will be the ‘continuing state’ under international law and will thus retain all the current UK’s memberships and obligations.
For the second time, no one is getting ‘thrown out’ of the EU – rUK will remain a member and Scotland will apply to become a member.
“What is taking on 10% of the Uk’s whopping £1.5 TRILLION debt then dave, an asset or an obligation?”
Its a liability, obviously.
“Is there actually any reason why Scotland really NEEDS to be a full member of the EU anyway?”
Ask the SNP, they’re the ones who are desperate to assert that we’ll definitely ‘remain’ a member of the EU after independence – indeed they’re so desperate to ensure our EU membership that they’re not even planning to give the people of Scotland a say as to whether we actually want to become a member or not.
“Like all the usual Naysayers you seem rather ill-informed and also quite miss the point….Now, in 1707”
With respect, your irrelevant refences to 1707 and the Treaty of Union are nothing whatsoever to do, in any tiny way, with the sovereign state UK, its status under international law, or its status as an EU member state.
“the bipartite United KINGDOM citizens all became EU citizens at exactly the same moment. We Scots have thus been founder members of the EU as long as any other country’s citizens”
Complete and utter guff. Individual citizens are not ‘members’ of the EU, sovereign states are.
Scotland is not a sovereign state and is not, and has never been, a ‘member’ of the EU.
Scotland is no more a member of the EU than Catalonia, Bavaria, Cornwall, or Yorkshire – 1707 and all the rest of that historical guff is utterly irrelevant to that point.
That was 21 posts in 2 hours from the Ediburgh Dave operative. He disappeared at 12.54. I’ve heard of fighting fire with fire, this was a great example of fighting bullshit with reason. Great responses.
Here’s another question:
Can anyone tell me another example of a single currency in Europe that is shared by more than one country? I’m sure I heard of one once. It’s on the tip of my tongue…
I don’t know if we need a Central Bank or an LLR. I just don’t. But the idea that such a body could not share a currency with the Bank of England (at least as far as the EU is concerned, which is what we’re talking about here, but also in practical terms) is absurd in the extreme.
And he is back!! He must have been recharging.
@ SS. Brilliant!!
I got fed up waiting for Dave to stop dodging the question and phoned the European Commission in Edinburgh, where I spoke to the Head Of Office, Graham Blythe.
His reply was, and I paraphrase, “Ooh, that’s a bit too complicated to go into right now as I’m just going out, but email me and I’ll get back to you tomorrow.”
At the very least, that appears to suggest to me that it’s nowhere near the black-and-white requirement Dave seems to think it is. After all, if it’s in the rules that you need a central bank, you say “Yes. If you want more details email me because I’m in a hurry, but yes.”
Conclusion: Dave’s talking out of his hole.
Aw God, it’s the wee bluedog, Duggie again. Must have been last night’s fireworks that woke him up.
He is / she is / they are still here.
But as Desimond said “Stop focusing on a single pixel and look at the picture as a whole.”
It is a distraction technique pure and simple. Tangles us up with nonsense, a refinement of the previous 5 zillion questions tactic rather than reply to the simple questions at the top of this page.
It’s not about what WILL happen in the future, but about who makes the decisions about Scotland’s future.
1. Actually no. The oft quoted figues of 9.9% revenue 9.3% expenditure was for 2011-2012. That figures for 2012-2013 are 9.1% revenue 9.3 expenditure. In any case fact that expenditure is a higher figure than revenue is not solely down to net interest repayments but also defence, shared services, benefits etc as well.
2. Yes Scotland can use the pound but the economics of Scotland will not be taken into consideration by the BoE.
3. A few people have used this foreigner argument. A few. Conceded.
4. Yes it is a possibility. The electorate in England has become more concerned about the issue of immigration recently (don’t forget England absorbs the majority of UK immigration already and is a very highly populated country for its area). If Scotland joins the Schengen Area and has a more pro-immigration poilcy than the UK the rUK may become concerned and as it has an opt-out to Schengen could erect borders. As for policing these borders, all countries without a freedom of movement agrrement have such borders to police and whilst it is problematic it can be done effectively.
5. No, do you have any evidence of it?
6. No, very little can be predicted over a 5 year time frame in politics. Yes know how that feels
7. As above.
8. As above.
9. The Scottish Govenment already has tax raising powers and presumably, though I don’t know, there is system to put it into practice if it is ever needed. Maybe the costs yourefer to may be mitigated by using this system. But conceded, I don’t know. It will be less than the set up costs of a tax system for an independent Scotland almost certainly.
10. It is a country without sovereinty much like E/W/NI.
“That figures for 2012-2013 are 9.1% revenue 9.3 expenditure.”
2012-13 was a freak low year for oil revenue for reasons extensively covered before.
“Yes Scotland can use the pound but the economics of Scotland will not be taken into consideration by the BoE.”
Just as they aren’t now. Right now if Scotland’s interests happen to coincide with England’s, great. If they conflict, England’s interests always trump Scotland’s, and rightly so, because the Bank is duty bound to serve the greatest number of people. We can’t be any worse off than we are now in that regard.
“A few people have used this foreigner argument. A few. Conceded.”
Rather a lot. We have a whole tag full of them. But you haven’t answered the question.
“Yes it is a possibility.”
It really isn’t. There would be riots. Building a Berlin Wall across the Borders? Be serious.
“No, do you have any evidence of it?”
Well, all those Ipsos MORI polls, for a start.
“No, very little can be predicted over a 5 year time frame in politics.”
Indeed. So that whole “safety and security of the UK” schtick is a load of old balls.
“It will be less than the set up costs of a tax system for an independent Scotland almost certainly.”
Why? It’ll be doing the same job.
“It is a country without sovereinty much like E/W/NI.”
So a country, except not a country?
“We will still be members in April 2016. ‘We’ (as in Scots born people) will still be EU citizens in April 2016”
A member of the EU and EU citizens are not the same thing.
Individual citizens are not ‘members’ of the EU – sovereign states are.
After a yes vote, Scotland will need to apply to become a member of the EU and (according to the SNP) that membership will be agreed by, and will commence, in March 2016.
But then the SNP’s claim is based on the presumption that Scotland will be in a currency union, which is anything but certain.
At least Edinburgh Dave does sound quite articulate, I’d hate to think of him typing away inside a soiled England top, King Billy and Union Jack tattoos running up and down both arms, masonic rings tapping along to the Dambusters theme tune … But then …
@Edinburgh Dave
Scotland is no more a member of the EU than Catalonia, Bavaria, Cornwall, or Yorkshire
That is the No campaign’s message boiled down to reality. They simply see Scotland as a region of the UK. They equate Scotland to Cornwall or Yorkshire. The Brit nat’s core argument; Scotland is not a nation, and would be expelled somehow from the EU.
I know if I send them to Michael MaCann (even in my own words) he’ll write back that they originate from the the Rev Evil and that I should just feck off (again).
@Edinburgh Dave
You forgot our 10% of the UK Bonds purchased with the Quantative Easing “printed money”. We get just over £30 Billion Pounds of those bonds on day one (our share of the £350 Billion purchased. If we take the debt share we must get the bond share.
It would make rUK kind of worried that we could cash them in ANYTIME. A £30 Billion plus next egg will be nice.
@ Edinburgh Dave
You haven’t responded to my point that countries which lack their own currency can still have a Central Bank, as in the case of Ecuador.
So it doesn’t matter if the wording of some EU treaty or other requires Scotland to have a Central Bank, because Scotland can have one.
So it doesn’t matter if the wording of some EU treaty or other requires Scotland to have a Central Bank, because Scotland can have one.
One of the key principles of the EU is that there is always more than one way to peel a banana.
Pretends that there are strict laws (that he invented) for one side of the argument (Scotland’s) and not the other (ukok’s)……….
Is the ‘liability’ of an Independent Scotland taking on 10% of £1.5 Trillion uk accrued debt a ‘legal liability’ or just a ‘hopeful liability’ that relies on goodwill?
Answer is that t is the uk debt.
No goodwill from the uk but they howled about an Independent Scotland lacking goodwill over the so called ‘liability’ which is, to put matters very straight, a uk liability and he believes (though there is no definitive statement and easy legal challenges) that uk is the ‘successor state’ so westminster hill earn itself 10% more debt without Scotland and her goodwill…….that will cripple the on top of losing oil and whisky revenues and everything else.
The answer is in the ‘liability’ quote by hapless Dave who vainly attempts to pretend uncertainty where there is none (renegotiation becomes ‘re-entry’) but the argument was sorted out by Jean Claude Juncker who has dismissed the ukok argument that Scotland has to got to ‘go the back of a queue’ as has been claimed countless times over the last two years with regard to the EU.
Edinburgh Dave
There is no reason Scotland needs to be a member of the EU – it is just very desirable that we do become a member in our own right. Now that all of the EU rules and regs are transposed into Scottish law it would seem to make sense to continue to have our right to trade with the other states. This includes RUK despite what is implied by Better Together.
You are quite correct that RUK will be the continuing state and will inherit memberships, obligations and all laibilities. However, we can have all the memberships and obligations which the Scots people choose to have more or less free. They will not cost (say) 8% of £1.5trn.
Done! That’s Clare Baker, Jayne Baxter and Dr Richard Simpson been sent the Questions. Added my postcode BTW in case they won’t answer without knowing if I’m a constituent.
Stu, as suggested I’ve contacted both my MP and MSP. However as both are Labour I’m not very hopeful of any meaningful or indeed, intelligible replies. My last attempt to elicit information from my elected representatives resulted in a variety of formulaic responses, one of which could have been neatly summarised as “F**k off”.
In the event of a no vote, will Scottish citizens be regarded as “foreign” in England, and if so will the status of Irish citizens be changed in line with that?
I emailed Anne McMillan (LAB), Angela Moohan (LAB), Neil Findlay (LAB), Cameron Buchanan (CON), Gavin Brown (CON), Sarah Boyack (LAB), Kezia Dugdale (LAB) and Graeme Morrice (LAB)
@ Clootie
Since those bonds are denominated in sterling – which is solely issued by the UK government, and will be solely issued by the rUK government after Scottish independence, according to Westminster – they can be paid off at any time as well.
The bankruptcy of the British state is moral and intellectual, not financial.
poor response from Jim Sheridan -:
Many thanks for your email regarding independence questions.
Most of the answers to these questions have already been the subject of lengthy public discussion and the opinions expressed are already in the public domain.
If, however, should you need further clarification I suggest you visit the Better Together website.
Regards,
Jim Sheridan MP
Member of Parliament for Paisley and Renfrewshire North
Constituency Office:
Mirren Court (Three)
Ground Floor North
123 Renfrew Road
Paisley
Renfrewshire
PA3 4EA
@ Dave
”
Scotland is no more a member of the EU than Catalonia, Bavaria, Cornwall, or Yorkshire”.
Or for that matter, England.
The only politician I’ve seen give a decent unionist case is Malcolm Chisholm (ironically, as he is also the only politician in Labour to occasionally go against the party line and give praise to some nationalist ideas as well.)
Never mind what others reply, it would be interesting to see his responses. Any Leith residents on the board?
Conclusion: Dave’s talking out of his hole.
He sure is but he’s only quoting BetterTogether blow offs this dudess.
link to notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com
Clearly he’s not a troll, he can’t be, she gives evidence to the Ian Davidson freak show Westminster Scottish affairs committee BUT above all, he is for ever and day on CIF ranting over and over that you can’t vote Yes because you have no central bank and if you have no central bank and it would break EU membership rules and EU law, if Scotland becomes a nation state and even thinks about becoming an EU member. Plus no lender of last resort which is extremely debatable too.
But all of this from a UKOK Professor is an out right lie, fraud, con, call it what you will.
So go easy on a poor deluded liar like Edinburgh Dave:D
@Edinburgh Dave says: 24 July, 2014 at 11:26 am:
“Presumably that’s because the SNP constantly insist, including in their white paper, that those things ‘will’ happen, despite there being no certainty at all of that being the case?”
Presemably that is because you fail to understand exactly what, “A government White Paper”, actually is.
Allow me to enlighten you : –
“White papers are documents produced by the Government setting out details of future policy on a particular subject. A White Paper will often be the basis for a Bill to be put before Parliament. The White Paper allows the Government an opportunity to gather feedback before it formally presents the policies as a Bill.”
That, Edinburgh Dave is the definition from the Glossary Section of the Westminster Parliament’s web site.
@thedogphilosopher says:
“At least Edinburgh Dave does sound quite articulate”
Like a lorry.
“A member of the EU and EU citizens are not the same thing.”
You can’t be in a position to have 5 EU million citizens who have to ‘reapply’ to be in the EU.
You compare an Independent Scotland in the EU as being the same status as “Cornwall and Yorkshire”, yet Juncker confirmed that Scotland was in a totally different position (a quote “special case’) and the comparison was clarified to actual COUNTRIES like “……..the Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey.”
You see the futility of your wrong comparison and then what Juncker stated, and he was forced to clarify so because once again the likes of yourself (and all westminster based politicians) squealed erroneously in unison claiming Juncker had said Scotland couldn’t join the EU because he had said: ‘there are no plans for expansion for next five years.”
That headline didn’t actually work out for the no campaign at all did it when it took Juncker to put them all right?
Did labour hq tell you to keep repeating nonsense on WoS, if so your ‘central bank’ bollocks is not really grasping the reality of the informative replies you have received, the uncertainty game for this referendum has lost you many votes as you play every single one again and again regardless of whether it has been previously debunked.
A bit like “No cooperation from England Wales and NI on transplants’ in an Independent Scotland, not only a nasty lie but one that was easily debunked……..and it came from that no campaign stalwart and Scottish man of the people Gordon Brown.
Why tell lies?
“I read that public health services were to be specifically excluded from TTIP.”
I believe a Government would need to make that case. In the English Health Service it would appear they can’t exclude those services already transferred to the private sector. The Government now pays for the services but they are not under it’s direct control.
If Scotland is considered a region of the UK, the Scottish Government would not be in control as an independent Government would be, and there is no guarantee that it could designate the Scottish NHS exempt, it might not have the legal power.
This could be challenged by companies involved in providing services.
“Scotland is not a nation, and would be expelled somehow from the EU”
Where have I made either claim? Pointing out that Scotland is no more a member of the EU than Yorkshire or Catalonia is, quite obviously, not in the slightest suggesting that Scotland is not a nation, or indeed that it would be expelled from the EU.
If you’re going to try to argue against my points, at least do so against points I’ve actually made, rather than making things up.
@ Angus says:
It is the job of paid government troll to continually present off topic posts on this type of forum, to deflect from the actual topic, and stifle debate.
If you are busy answering the trolls then you are not discussing the real agenda.
Thanks for that SS! That was promptly shared on Facebook.
@Edinburgh Dave
It was implied very heavily in your post that Scotland is a mere region of the UK, comparable to Yorkshire and Cornwall. I did not make anything up, it came straight from your own post.
A little piece o’pish from McTernan.
link to prospectmagazine.co.uk
“If you’re going to try to argue against my points, at least do so against points I’ve actually made, rather than making things up.”
And if you’re going to troll all day on the basis of an assertion, provide evidence.
You’ve yet to show us a single line of EU law that says member states must have a central bank. You’ve shown us law that says what they must do IF THEY DO have one, but nothing showing us that having one in the first place is a condition of membership.
Last chance. Ignore this comment and you’re banned.
O/T
link to craigmurray.org.uk
In my 55 years of life, I had never until yesterday seen a flag which was a saltire on one side and a union jack on the other. Yet last night thousands of them were distributed free at the Commonwealth Games opening ceremony. I have been told they are being given out at the swimming today, and possibly at other venues too.
Such flags do not normally exist. They had to be specially commissioned, and somebody had to pay for them. Who paid for them? Is it public money?
@ Edinburgh Dave says:
but Scotland is in a union with England called the UK, which will be dissolved on the 18th Sept or not. The regions you mention are not countries in a union with England.
Sovereignty returns to the people of Scotland or not Edinburgh Dave, and boy can you feel the UKOK Britnats desperately trying to keep a grip of it, like last night opening ceremony for starters and for fcuks sake do not make Scotland look that great, twee, jolly, happy to reigned over, with barrowman, Boyle and Rod Stewart….
Why naw?
@ Murry McCaiium 1.41pm
The way I have read the Information about the TTIP agreement
is that any service that is already fully in public ownership is to
be exempt
Although if this is true then the health service in Scotland would be protected I do worry about Scottish Water.
Dose anyone know if any part of it is already in private hands,because this seems to be the route that TTIP will gain a foothold in to rUK health care
I for one would like to see Water as protected as the Health Service
@Robert Peffers – 13:04
Thanks, saved me the trouble of pointing that out.
Was also going to direct him to article 48 of the EU treaties, as well as the possibilities of Scottish EFTA membership, as an alternative option to the EU (which someone else has already done I now see).
Seems that many No voters tend to just ignore that article 48 when it is brought to their attention as it just does not and will not play into the bollocks argument about Scotland being expelled from the EU in the first place.
Besides which is it not the case that the queen is currently not the Queen of Scotland but rather the Queen of Scots ?
In Scotland it is the people who are sovereign not the land. At least that has been my own understanding for quite a number of years. If I am wrong in this assertion then I will happily admit it to be so.
Interesting points about central banks and the power to issue currency etc.
I think it is more Interesting however that our currency has grown exponentially since it was debased in 1971, however the growth in money supply has accelerated greatly in the last decade or so.
So who created all this new money?
The Bank of England?
No, it was actually private organisations commonly known as banks.
Bank Of England: “rather than banks lending out deposits that are placed with them, the act of lending creates deposits — the reverse of the sequence typically described in textbooks.”
The above fact is the very cause of our economic woes. More than 97% of our money supply is electronic money created by private banks and is hence debt.
@robert mcdonald.
If you use write to them, they always follow up and ask if you received a reply.
I always copy to my list MP (who is SNP) as well at to my MSP (who is Labour) then if the MSP doesn’t reply, I follow up with the list MSP.
“Is the ‘liability’ of an Independent Scotland taking on 10% of £1.5 Trillion uk accrued debt a ‘legal liability’ or just a ‘hopeful liability’ that relies on goodwill?”
What on earth are you ranting about?
The Vienna Convention on Succession of States clearly sets out, under international law, the process regarding the transfer of rights, obligations, and/or property when a state splits or part of it becomes independent.
Liabilities include debt, assets include embassies, monetary reserves, property etc.
Assets do not include a system of currency.
@ScottieDog.
o/t
Positive Money, meeting in Glasgow 25th July.
Offshore Coffee, 3 – 5 Gibson Street.
@ Edinburgh Dave
1st time Ive read the comments in a while, and I think its good to have someone like Edinburgh Dave on here. The reason I stopped reading them was because nobody questioned anything anymore.
So regardless of your thoughts on Daves points, he should be welcomed as we need people to question BOTH sides of the argument. Having discussions and not arguments is the best way to convince people of your view.
I think the central bank question is an issue that we are too quick to fob off, but I will say that the whole EU membership is not that important to me. It just seems to have become a thing where we think we NEED it because NO said we cant have it.
Im not voting YES because I want to use the £ or because I want to be in the EU – Im voting YES because I want the people of Scotland to have the ability to fully control its own destiny.
One point I will disagree with is where Dave said that the SNP are not giving us a choice on EU membership – thats not 100% true. We will elect our 1st government on their manifesto and they/we may choose to leave the EU at that point
Thanks
@Edinburgh Dave says: 24 July, 2014 at 11:30 am
“Presumably what they mean is a yes vote is a vote to leave the sterling currency system and the central bank that manages it, which is true – unless a currency union can be agreed of course.”.
Well, Edinburgh Dave. I must presume you presume far too much. Here’s real facts NOT presumptions.
Fact 1 – The Pound Sterling is the agreed common currency in the bipartite Treaty of Union 1706/7. As such it belongs equally to the two equally sovereign Kingdoms who are signatories to that union. Ditto the Bank of England that was Nationalised as the totally UK owned but independent Bank. Ergo – it is not that of the Kingdom of England alone.
Fact 2 – Sterling is an international trading currency that no one needs permission to use.
Fact 3 – If the newly independent Kingdom of England, (there cannot be an rUnited Kingdom as there was only two Kingdoms in Britain when the two signed up to unite), were to be stupid enough to refuse a currency union the results for that kingdom would be catastrophic. The first being that Scotland would remove from the vaults of the Bank of England the total value of the current sum of the Scottish Banknotes. They must deposit to the value of each note as agreed in the Treaty of Union. Secondly they could demand their negotiated share of the assets of the BofE and there is no legal bases for the Better Together claim that share be based upon the current population ratio. Added to that is that if Scotland does not share in the assets then Scotland is not due to accept a share of the former UK’s debts and finally the total value of Scottish exports would instantly be removed from the former UK’s economy.
The Kingdom of England would lose her credit rate. See English currency soften against the Scottish Sterling rate and I doubt that it would survive the inevitable run on the English pound as the oil & gas backed Scottish pound hardened.
I’m not going to profess any expertise in banking but what I do know from working on government projects is that the language is key to the whole argument. There is a difference contractually in saying you “should” do something as opposed to you “must” do something.
Regardless of individual countries interpretations of central banks or last resort, etc., where does it say that you MUST have this to be in the EU? Legalese will be very specific when it has to be and what has been provided here shows that these articles are very much open to interpretation.
“You can’t be in a position to have 5 EU million citizens who have to ‘reapply’ to be in the EU.”
5 million EU citizens won’t have to ‘reapply’ to be in the EU.
Scotland will have to apply to become a member of the EU.
If you’re unable to understand the obvious difference between an EU member state and EU citizens then there’s really no point in further discussion with you.
“So regardless of your thoughts on Daves points, he should be welcomed as we need people to question BOTH sides of the argument”
Unfortunately the controller of this site disagrees with you, given that he’s already threatening me with a banning for daring to question anything he says.
“It was implied very heavily in your post that Scotland is a mere region of the UK, comparable to Yorkshire and Cornwall. I did not make anything up, it came straight from your own post”
I ‘implied’ nothing of the sort. I merely pointed out the fact that in terms of EU membership ALONE (NOT its status as a nation, or a country, or a kingdom or anything else), Scotland is no more a member of the EU than Catalonia or any of the other areas I mentioned.
If you’re so paranoid you read into that I’m claiming Scotland isn’t a nation then that says more about you than anything else.
Another question….
Q. If Scotland votes No to Independence then we have made it clear we wish to be ruled by someone else. If in a future referendum on EU membership Scotland votes to stay in but England votes to leave, do you agree Scotland should become new Department of France or Lander of Germany to allow our full EU membership to continue?
“The Treaty provisions on central bank independence apply to all EU Member States, irrespective of euro area membership. Countries are thus expected to have completed the process of granting their central bank full institutional independence by the time of accession to the EU”
link to ecb.europa.eu
“All EU Member States are part of Economic and Monetary Union, which means they coordinate their economic policies for the benefit of the EU as a whole”
link to ec.europa.eu
“EU rules require every member state to have a central bank, so as to be able to participate in arrangements such as cross-border supervision or the rescuing of failing banks, as well as providing last-resort lending and as well as a stepping stone to joining the euro”
link to blogs.telegraph.co.uk
“a functioning central bank is a precondition of EU membership”
link to newstatesman.com
well said Robert sterling is screwed without the backing of the oil revenue ,failure by westminster to join a CU will be catastrophic ,however if you spooks keep pissing us off we might just leave your sorry asses to fall of the fiscal cliff ,so isnt it about time you told your masters to play nice or us Scots might just decide to kick you right in the proverbials,Jeez what an ungrateful arrogant bunch of twats you lot are and you wonder why we want out its astonishing.
Edinburgh Dave says:
[i]”As has been explained numerous times previously, rUK will be the ‘continuing state’ under international law and will thus retain all the current UK’s memberships and obligations.”[/i]
Dear God, not this bull again. International law offers little in the way of clear guidance in this sui generis case. And before you cite the example of the Soviet Union and the Baltic States, remember that the USSR existed whole and intact BEFORE it absorbed them.
Let me bring you up to date, Dave . . .
Consider the confected December 2012 legal fiction that was adopted and made policy by HMG in early 2013, wherein they assert Scotland was extinguished in 1707 when it was absorbed by England.
We are then, all Englishmen and women, living in England, and there is no such country as Scotland. HMG argue it is the northern part of English territory that will be seceding.
HMG had no alternative but to argue that case if it is to be reasonably sure of international recognition as the continuator state, thereby retaining its vanity permanent seat on the UN Security Council, minimising difficulties in retaining its opt-outs within the EU, and to continue the fiction of a UK marching on “move along, nothing to see here” as a major power.
That is why they have adopted this convoluted and improbable argument that Scotland was “extinguished” when it was incorporated into England in 1707, that England continued, and that the titles “UK” and “England” are synonymous, describing the same continuing unitary state.
Of course the reality is that the United Kingdom of Great Britain is a legal and political entity formed by the Union of two and only two countries – the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England (incorporating Wales). It was created by a bilateral internationally recognised treaty.
It is the case that upon dissolution of the Treaty of Union (the only legal way to effect independence), its associated enabling acts of parliaments, and any subsequent contingent intra-state treaties and agreements derived therefrom, the United Kingdom of Great Britain will cease to be.
As you might expect, two and only two successor states will emerge from its discarded husk – the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England. There can be no continuing state of an extinguished voluntary union of two nations. It is on its face a daft proposition.
Consider the tautology: When the Union is dissolved, the Union ceases to be.
Scotland as a successor state, just like England, would retain EU membership, though there would have to be negotiations with both successor states and the EU to regularise their new status.
Each will inherit the rights and responsibilities of any inter-state treaties entered into collectively on their behalf by the (by then) defunct United Kingdom.
Each successor state will be heir to their share of the accrued assets of the United Kingdom, and responsible for their share of the liabilities incurred by the United Kingdom during the tenure of their union.
@Jimbo Re: Zero hours contracts.
This was discussed just the other day in an interview with Vince Cable. He said that there were some aspects of zero hors contracts which he didn’t like and they intended to legislate against them.
One of them is that some companies stop those who are signed up to them from taking on a second job. This is a pernicious aspect of it because it means that the company can cut down on the number of hours willy nilly and the employee has no redress and could be put below the bread line as far as his standard of living is concerned.
On the other hand Cable claims that zero hours contracts are liked by some employees as they give them flexibility and he would keep them for that reason.
As far as I am concerned these contracts are just another manifestation of how the capitalist system treats people as commodities who can be used any way the companies require.
When/if Cameron does his revisions in the EU it will be much worse for employees (if it could get any worse than it is now). Even if he does not get his way a Tory government will find ways around the EU rules. That is why we absolutely must remove ourselves from the UK on 18 September.
noun
a national bank that provides financial and banking services for its country’s government and commercial banking system, as well as implementing the government’s monetary policy and issuing currency
where does it say that a central bank has to be the lender of last resort?
@Edinburgh Dave
He IS the controller of the site, so quite entitled to ban folk. Also, Rev Stu disagrees with people often, as is his (and everyone elses) right. The reason you cruisin’ for an exclusion is because you’re ignoring his question repeatedly. Respond with evidence or say you have none and you can move on unbanished.
Edinburgh Dave – ‘Unfortunately the controller of this site disagrees with you, given that he’s already threatening me with a banning for daring to question anything he says.’
Stu is not threatening you with being banned for raising the points in your comments, rather it’s because you fail to answer the salient point put to you that your quotes on EU banking do not, in fact, relate to the point you’re trying to make. Any replies you’ve been given pointing out that what the EU has to say on countries who do not have a central bank/LLR, does not state that countries must have a central bank, or the rules thereof.
My view is not having an LLR would help to make banks act to rules and stop them being able to bankrupt countries. This may only be my view, but you do not enter into discussion, you only repeat your, and BT’s, well worn and oft debunked, mantra.
Away and take off your blinkers, extend your vision and try to be a bit less fearful. 🙂
Off Topic [but not as much as Edinburgh Dave]
Saw a post on another site that had a good plan for the double flags being handed out at the games
Take two and use gum [non political] kirby’s [also non political] and stick them back to back.
job done
O/T re flags.
Does anybody down there fancy taking EU flags in and arguing their validity on the grounds that it reresents a political union that some of the countries belong to?
Nice lady from the Beep licence fees at the door Ave nae time tae talk tae her, diz she no know the Commonwealth Games ur on,how inconsiderate to disturb the viewing public,mibbee,s she wanted tae talk oboot ma NON PAYMENT,aoch weil there will be other times.
There is no barrier whatsoever to an independent Scotland creating a National Bank that was “able to participate in arrangements such as cross-border supervision or the rescuing of failing banks, as well as providing last-resort lending …”
I can’t see what Edinburgh Dave is trying to achieve other than create doubt and a nourish a belief that Scotland is uniquely unable to achieve something.
We should not forget that the Bank of England did not act as lender of last resort in the financial crisis, nor is it solely responsible for supervision in the current UK regulatory framework.
I’m sorry , but I’ve just read one of Edinburgh Dave’s thoughts on EU membership and frankly he is talking complete and utter mince!
rUK or as it should be called ENGLAND will not be a ‘continuing state’ BOTH England and Scotland will be accepted as CONTINUEING states of the (hopefully) soon to be defunct United Kingdom.
Maybe Edinburgh Dave is trying to create ‘doubt’, but Im amazed his point is not being taken more seriously
I think chances of a CU is 50/50 at best, so we need to be clear on what our best solution is in that situation.
It wont stop me from voting YES as Im in it for future generations, but slating the guy for raising a fair point is a shame
@Edward
Thats an interesting point – where did you get that from? Has that been confirmed by the EU or anyone?
As an interesting variation on the central bank question, it’s worth taking a quick look at Monaco and San Marino.
Neither of these microstates is a full member of the EU, but both have rafts of agreements. Among them are agreements, not only that they are allowed to use the euro, but they are allowed to ISSUE notes and coins.
Neither state has a central bank.
It might be argued that Scotland lies on a rather different scale. However, the precedent is clear – that without having a central bank, it is possible to reach an agreement not only to use, but to issue the notes and coins of someone else’s sovereign currency. Make of that what you will.
A few other observations on some the the things in this thread:
a) The Convention on succession of states with respect to state archives, property and debt, is NOT part of international law (never having achieved enough signatories). It’s a guideline – nothing more.
b) The £ may not be classed as a tangible asset – such as a building, but it is without doubt an intangible asset (much like ‘goodwill’) – and therefore has a value in negotiation
c) EU citizenship, despite some of the claims made above, does depend on the country of your citizenship being an EU member. If the UK chooses to leave the EU, we would all lose our EU citizenship overnight. The same would happen if Scotland were to be ‘expelled’ – by some as-yet-to-be-explained mechanism.
This, incidentally, is the chief reason why the EC will bend over backwards to keep Scotland in. The EU takes citizenship seriously, and the prospect of stripping citizenship from people who wish to retain it goes against every principle of the treaties. This is without reference to the chaos that would be caused on a practical level.
Has Norsewarrior gone yet?
While I’m on my hind horse (what is that exactly?)
I’m fed up with the term ‘separatists’ and ‘separation from the union’
Quebec were ‘separatists’ as they wanted to separate from the other provinces that make up federal Canada
The Confederates (in the US civil war) were separatists as the Confederate states were separating from the other states and territories that made the United States.
The union that made the United Kingdom was and IS only between TWO Kingdoms. Therefore if one ends the union, then the union no longer exists.
You cannot separate from a union that you are one of two members, its no longer a union. You cannot have a union of ONE!
Rant over
Continuing EU states is one thing but the fact is BetterTogether, Edinburgh Dave, Prof. Jezereena Tomkins etc are liars trying to win a referendum on fear and lies, via BBC etc. Only the EU can say what’s what but they won’t until ConDem Westminster formally ask them.
And why won’t they do that? If you’re out there Prof Jezereena baby, come on WoS and tell us!? Always room for your Slovene vote Niet sunshine lollipops and rainbows
@Edward,
I’m afraid you are wrong. The rUK, by dint of population, size of economy etc etc will be by far the larger remaining entity. Every precedent (notably that of Russia) suggests that the international community will recognise rUK as the successor state (they’re not going to care about arcane 1707 treaties).
It can happen that a state which divides in two can choose for neither to be the successor (as happened with Czech rep & Slovakia) and for both to start afresh. But rUK certainly won’t do that (UN seat etc.)
I’ve argued before that there may be a bit of leverage to be gained in negotiation by accepting rUK succession without objection – but in the long term it’s a done deal anyway, which is why Yes isn’t making a song and dance about it.
Ah know its late in the day ,but why o why are you,s bothering feeding the TROLL, thank Fck there,s something decent on Bbc fur a change.
Edward – I think the expression is ‘high horse’, which means being a bit arrogant and actng high and mighty. (And, as it’s an old saying, unlikely to be related to drugs). 🙂
O/T Rev, sorry if this has been posted.
Ian Smart smears Alex Salmond, Mr Salmond’s crime? to mention the Malaysian air tragedy. This comes on the heels of Ian Smart’s comment, that Scots would turn on Poles and Paki’s after independence.
link to newsnetscotland.com
Is it true that Scotland would cease to exist as a country after a NO vote.
@ Chritian Wright
” International law offers little in the way of clear guidance in this sui generis case.”
Can you chuck in a few heretounder and theretofors as well please.
My Lawyer used to have a chart of extras on any document he sent me. The heretounders and theretofors were definite extras, but a sui generis would be worth a lot more the £ 20 for the aforetosaids.
Carry on.
Before you leave “edinburgh dave”, let me just ask you one question of you.
How much of the utter nonsense you spout do you actually believe ?
Actually, that was rhetorical, see ya.
@Edward
These separatists in Ukraine are now armed rebels, according the BBC Night Shift but not the Day one, honestly.
@ Robert Peffers
Reality is the opposite; a currency union would be catastrophic for SOB – south of border; you don’t like rUK, and I won’t call it England since I have no desire to annoy the Welsh, the Northern Irish, or the Cornish.
Okay, where is the problem here? Those backing reserves are sterling, which the Westminster parties have stated will remain under Westminster control – no currency union. They can’t run out of a currency which they themselves issue.
Again, assets denominated in sterling, which Westminster can’t run out of.
Debt which is denominated in sterling. Control of that currency is looking to be key.
This will happen whether or not there’s a currency union.
And just as when the UK lost its AAA rating after the 2008 crash it wouldn’t make any difference. UK bond yields went down after the rating drop. For nation states which are sovereign in their own currency, credit ratings are meaningless.
Your doubts are not well founded. All the problems you lay out are only problems if SOB no longer controls sterling, and a currency union would mean giving up that control.
As I said in an earlier comment in this thread, the bankruptcy of the British state is moral and intellectual, not financial. A currency union would add financial bankruptcy to SOB’s problems.
Westminster and UK Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon blocks Scottish request for the Red Arrows to release a blue and white vapour trail to represent the Scottish Saltire.
link to standard.co.uk
to re-thread to original idea
If Scotland votes Yes would you support Tony Blair et al being tried for war crimes at the Hague or in Scotland?
If Scotland votes No would you support Tony Blair et al being tried for war crimes at the Hague or in the UK?
@ FlimFlamMan, problem is you’re completely ignoring the currency union of the EU, with a central bank, one currency, but each EU member still able to control its own interest rates, which is what its all about really. 20 or so countries in the euro zone, 2 in the sterling zone cant work? nah
I do like the way the Naysayers have that on the one hand we are a new state and we will have to do everything from scratch and on the other that we simultaneously have signed up to every Convention signed by the UK that requires us to take on the UK’s debts.
Its almost as good as EdDave’s requirement for us to have a central bank when the requirement is for price stability but then I was always fascinated by the contortionist at the circus and even better if he was dressed as a clown.
By the way, were we not promised by the ConDems that the UK borrowings would be reducing by now. Is Labour sure that following the ConDem’s road is the way to unbreak Britain?
@ frazer allan whyte, issues like Blair and Brown as war criminals, are what a Scottish constitution is going to be for.
@ Edinburgh Dave says: 24 July, 2014 at 11:42 am:
“Each Member State shall ensure that its national legislation including the statutes of its national CENTRAL BANK is compatible with the Treaties and the Statute of the ESCB and of the ECB” – Article 131 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union”.
Ach! Edinburgh Dave, there you go presuming again. First thing is that legal arguments cannot be based upon assumptions and presumptions.
The cite you give is an opinion of an non EU body which itself is basing its arguments upon false presumptions.
You, and they, are basing your whole premise upon the false presumption that Scotland is, leaving the United Kingdom and that United Kingdom will be the continued member state. That’s false presumption as I have already proven and quoted you the legal documents that prove it wrong. I’ll quote them again, “Articles I & III of the Treaty of Union, 1706/7.
Not answering a question like “How can you be an EU citizen that is not in the EU?” instead just giving just a repetitive non answer.
The secret Dave, is to acknowledge some things in the decent and factual replies you have received like that the quote from Juncker SPECIFICALLY about Scotland-nothing vague there.
The reason Juncker was FORCED to say something? Westminster and their lackies saying we’d have to queue for five years-and that Juncker was referring to Scotland as having to wait for five years……it was not true though was it?
The fact that the quote specifically says that Scotland is a “special case” (because we are already EU citizens and because we are EU compliant in the manner that others are not)
That there are countries quoted that DO have to queue up and the statement said Scotland is NOT one of them and Juncker obviously not being a westminster lickspittle didn’t mention ‘Yorkshire’ or Cornwall……..or indeed England, that massive elephant in the EU room.
Juncker did mention Scotland though and guess what, he didn’t mention a central bank!
Ignoring the recent events related to Juncker’s first announcement that backfired when westminster jumped on it and made the wrong claim, and then just bullshitting with some selective quotes and smarmy replies that don’t address the quotes (or ignoring other evidence) is classic trolling, certainly not debate, but your time at the office will be up at five eh?
On topic-I have emailed some of the questions in my article to various bodies, not just members of the Scottish or british parliaments………probably a waste of time but you never know.
All done. My MP is Frank Roy. I added a question at the end about his thoughts on the hiding of the McCrone Report which I asked him in 2013 at the GLO centre in Motherwell but didn’t get an answer to. I’ve also added a note telling him that I don’t wish to receive a phone call, I wish to receive his reply in writing…because I contacted him about 2 years ago about a poll he had on his UK parly official website on independence, but the results couldn’t be viewed. He phoned and told me that they were for his personal stats..or some other rubbish….obviously nothing in writing..I should have followed it up at the time with an FOI as he was using public money….
@Nana Smith
Re the flags affair.
I think the source of the Union/Saltire should pursued. It blatantly breaks the rules as Craig Murray rightly points out. I suspect the source could be interesting and potentially damaging to the No Better Together Thanks mob.
Has anyone tracked down the source of the mutant flags that appeared last night?
heedtracker – I agree but don’t we need “assurances” about the future from the lot in power now – and then hold them to it?
another question – just for Labour MPs/MSPs
In the event of a NO vote and given your party’s committment to equality and democracy can you assure us that you personally will never accept a title or appointment to the House of Lords?
A key reason I support Scottish independence is for the unique chance to step away from much of the malaise in UK institutions and practices.
They are bankrupt of ideas and morals, fraudulent, self-serving and protected by a voting system that means our fortunes are determined by a few key marginal seats.
My ideal outcome would be a formal currency union with a negotiated finite life. I feel this would create the best circumstance to negotiate a fair settlement and unwind shared assets and liabilities over a period of time.
As far as I can see there is no reason why Scotland cannot succeed with a formal currency union, Sterlingisation, or its own Scottish Pound. Each could be a step to the other while each step need not be taken.
@X_Sticks
Agree…
I’m bloody angry at Michael Fallon [Tory] blocking the red arrows from trailing white & blue smoke.
The more people learn about that may make them think twice about supporting such a horrible union.
Union of equals my —-
And Edinburgh Dave responds with 2 quotes from the relevant place but that don’t answer the question, and 2 that do answer the question but are the Telegraph and the New Statesman, not the EU.
Bzzzt! Nice try! Thanks for playing though.
Hazel Irvine on the BBC has just flashed up a couple of “weegie” words and provided a Stanley Baxter-style translation and contextualisation for non-Glaswegian viewers in the UK. First up were “gallus” and “scunner”. She’s asking viewers to send in their own examples. Our “obscure patois” is officially being recognised, albeit in the most patronising manner possible.
However, don’t want to spoil the fun by not joining in so here we go: “Bastirt” as in “David Cameron is an evil, Tory Bastirt”. Aye, think I’ll send it in to her.
BBC Scotland TV refused to screen a Commonwealth Games daily round up focussing on the host nation’s athletes as we must see everything through the London prism.
Re the MoD statement about the red arrows always trailing red, white and blue, not true – at the opening of the Scottish Parliament when they accompanied Concorde this didn’t happen, the Queen was also present at that occasion too, of course last nights colours were political, see final paragraph on this page – saltire colours only were used in 1999
link to news.bbc.co.uk
@Jeannie.
Send in ‘stot the ba’. I’m sure quite a few at the BBC would like that one.
@Edinburgh Dave says: 24 July, 2014 at 11:59 am“:
“The main functions of a central bank are to issue currency and exercise control and oversight over that currency”,
But, Edinburgh Dave, there really is only one independent bank in the entire United Kingdom. It is the Airdrie Savings Bank. There really is no such thing as a Scottish or English Bank. Even including the BofE they are, even such as the HSBC, (Hong Kong & Shanghai Banking Corporation), are private Limited Companies, (though the BofE is wholly owned by the UK taxpayer). Private companies must legally register for tax reasons in every country, or state, they do business in. Thus their location within the UK is of no consequence. They are UK banks. Fact,though, is that since The Treaty of Union Scottish situated Banks legally print their own distinctive banknotes. To do so they deposit, in the BofE vaults, the equivalent value of each note in circulation. It is NOT, though, the property of the BofE.
Now I don’t know about you but it has been a very long time since I had a BofE note in my pocket. No matter what else the Pound Sterling is as much Scotland’s as it is England’s. What’s more the Scottish notes are backed up by deposits in the BofE vaults. So how do you imagine the, “Quantitative Easing”, works? The BofE is printing notes that have NO deposits to back them up.
Question for the Wee Blue Book –
Can we get back those 6,250 square miles of Scotland`s Inshore Fishery on the North Sea that Bliar and Brown and SLAB awarded to England in 1997 ?
Mineral Rights ?
@Juteman
Haven’t heard that for a while 🙂 Seems to me if Hazel can “translate” from weegie into standard english, she can do it the other way around as well. We should insist that she also does a report in Glaswegian – otherwise, where’s the fairness?
Currency is a means of exchange only.What is important is
The BALANCE SHEET / ASSETS and LIABILITIES.Our collateral
Is trade able commodities eg. a barrel of oil,case of whisky etc etc
If the pound sterling plummets on the foreign exchanges after a yes
Vote and no agreement on currency union at least the oil price is tied
To the US dollar.Would our pensioners wish to be paid in pounds
Sterling from UK if sterling collapses?
A question I would ask my MP or MSP is what would they personally be striving for in the event of a Yes vote. What would be their three priorities for an independent Scotland?
O/T.
Anyone drink in a whetherspoon’s pub?
I drink in one quite regularly and have noticed over the years that they will festoon the place with flags for any occasion, London Olympics, queens jubilee, World Cup and even beer festivals, but guess what? No flags up for Scotland’s commonwealth games.
I wonder if word has Come from the top to ignore our games in case it invokes any nationalism in the natives.
Time to get complaining.
“Glaikit” as in Alistair Carmichael.
@ frazer allan whyte, well independence is the time and the opportunity to make a Blair or a Brown an impossibility in Scotland. Iceland used the City of London 2008 crash to rewrite their constitution. Crash Gordon put Iceland on the terrorist threat list along with the likes of al qaeda, which must one of the most horrificly ironic acts of a dangerously deranged man.
Nana Smith says:
My bet is Glasgow Council.
link to news.sky.com also interesting watching Iceland approach EU membership. BetterTogether Britnats use EU membership as a very threatening vote no weapon but it’s really not.
Someone has posted on Craig Murrays blog that it was the Orange Order handing out the funny flags. It would be good to know the truth.
For what it’s worth, where I am in the province, singing god save the queen was a huge no no with queries like, what anthem are they going to play at medal award ceremonies for non English UK nations and why exactly are we not being told, seeing as it’s in Glasgow and we paid for it and so on?
@alexicon.
Weatherspoons have pennants for Pimms. Like the Union flag but missing the blue. Do they know whats going to be?
Four saltires flying at Carluke Cross. Who could have done that?
Cyprus Acceded to full EU Membership on May 1st 2004
Where was their Central Bank before and during EU Accession negotiations ?
Britain retains “Sovereign Territory” (90 sq miles) on a foreign EU Nation State where Scots pay tax to maintain 2 x British Army Bases – AND – an RAF BASE.
In Dec 2014 Cyprus will have the same amount of RAF Bases as Scotland – ONE EACH.
Cyprus is approx 120 miles from war torn Syria.
link to independent.co.uk
Big European games tonight but what one to watch..mm..think I’ll watch Aberdeen….oh…fuck…
@Nana
The Westminster bubble folks still haven’t got their head round what’s going on in Scotland!
@Edinburgh Dave says: 24 July, 2014 at 12:18 pm:
“Okay let’s look at it logically.”
Please Do, Edinburgh Dave, for that is what you signally HAVE NOT, as yet, managed to do.
The EU’s own treaty explicitely states that “Each Member State shall ensure that …
Well the logic didn’t last long then?
Dear! Oh! Dear!
Edinburgh Dave, your presumption that the bipartite Treaty of Union will disunite with the three country Kingdom of England, that is one equally sovereign partner with the Kingdom of Scotland in the Union, will somehow continue as the member state remains a presumption.
Here are the texts of Articles I & III of the Treaty of Union as written. Please indicate where it shows more than two Kingdoms are united? Then show which of these former kingdoms is shown to be a superior, or less sovereign, kingdom?
Conversely prove from the treaty that your claim of England’s kingdom being still a united kingdom after the only other partner kingdom leaves.
I’ll put that another way for you as you seem rather hard of thinking. Two Kingdoms named Scotland & England sign up to be equal partners in a, “United Kingdom”.
However, the partnership breaks down and Scotland decides to leave her partner England. Now which equal partner has the legal right to remain a united Kingdom while the other one not only is not an equal partner Kingdom but instead becomes a new country? Even when it has been a unified country for several hundred years longer than ite former partner England?
Here’s the two relevant Articles of Union : –
Article I. That the two kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof, and for ever after, be united into one kingdom by the name of GREAT BRITAIN; And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said united kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall appoint,, and the crosses of St Andrew and St George be conjoined, in such manner as Her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all flags, banners, standards and ensigns, both at sea and land.
Article III. That the united kingdom of Great Britain be represented by one and the same parliament to be stiled The Parliament of Great Britain.
Note : Article I only forms a joint monarchy. Article III Creates a new joint parliament.
@galamcennalath
You are so right.
I see another story in the FT, don’t want to pay to read it.
Scottish link could cost England dearly..Vernon Bogdanor
The Independent trying to stir the shit with this.
link to prospectmagazine.co.uk
“Scotland as a successor state, just like England, would retain EU membership”
Complete and utter guff. ‘England’ would not be a sovereign state, rUK will continue exactly as it is now just without Scotland – and it will thus retain its current EU membership.
Scotland would need to apply to become an EU member because it is not currently one – it cannot ‘retain’ something it does not yet have.
Stop making up lies.
sent e/mails to three Clrs.
Gerry Boyle.
Gerald L Leonard JP.
Maureen Burke
I wait with bated breath on their speedy replies.
Vote Aye.
“two and only two successor states will emerge from its discarded husk – the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England. There can be no continuing state of an extinguished voluntary union of two nations”.
Utterly embarrassing ignorance.
Yes, the united kingdom of Scotland and England would be dissolved and cease to exist, but the current sovereign state UK is NOT the ‘Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England’, it the UK of GB and NI and is a sovereign state recognised as such under international law, and by the UN and the entire world – the treaties of union and 1707 are utterly irrelevant to the sovereign state UK and its status as sovereign state under international law.
Much as you obviously hold the desperate desire that a yes vote will result in the sovereign state UK ‘ceasing to exist’ that quite clearly is not going to happen – not least due to the clear breach of democracy and human rights that would result from 58 million people becoming stateless due to a vote in which they were not even able to take part.
Yes Dave you have missed something.
The United Kingdom is the result of The Treaty of Union.
It only has two signatories and is between two equally sovereign partner KINGDOMS.
When two equal partners part they both remain equal.
You cannot show otherwise:
YOU LOSE
Here’s the proof.
Article I. That the two kingdoms of Scotland and England shall upon the first day of May next ensuing the date hereof, and for ever after, be united into one kingdom by the name of GREAT BRITAIN; And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said united kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall appoint,, and the crosses of St Andrew and St George be conjoined, in such manner as Her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all flags, banners, standards and ensigns, both at sea and land.
Article III. That the united kingdom of Great Britain be represented by one and the same parliament to be stiled The Parliament of Great Britain.
@goldenayr
Just read that. Supposed to be a response, but how can an article full of twisted logic and half truths be taken seriously. I suppose it’s for an English audience.
” Scotland has an ageing population. The costs—in terms of pensions and health and social care—is recognised by the £12bn fiscal transfer Scotland receives every year from the UK government. That’s not a subsidy, it’s redistribution. The United Kingdom is a massive engine for redistribution and social justice. We tax the wealth of London, a great world city, and distribute it across the country. Why would you want to restrict yourself to only taxing the wealth of Edinburgh? No answer comes from Neal, or the nationalists.”
What redistribution? There is no redistribution TO Scotland. So how do you challenge, or answer, something which is just plain wrong?
@goldenayr
Just read that. Supposed to be a response, but how can an article full of twisted logic and half truths be taken seriously. I suppose it’s for an English audience.
” Scotland has an ageing population. The costs—in terms of pensions and health and social care—is recognised by the £12bn fiscal transfer Scotland receives every year from the UK government. That’s not a subsidy, it’s redistribution. The United Kingdom is a massive engine for redistribution and social justice. We tax the wealth of London, a great world city, and distribute it across the country. Why would you want to restrict yourself to only taxing the wealth of Edinburgh? No answer comes from Neal, or the nationalists.”
What redistribution? There is no redistribution TO Scotland. So how do you challenge, or answer, something which is just plain wrong?
“rUK or as it should be called ENGLAND will not be a ‘continuing state’ BOTH England and Scotland will be accepted as CONTINUEING states of the (hopefully) soon to be defunct United Kingdom”
Yet more ludicrous embarrassing ignorant nonsense.
The sovereign state UK will not become defunct after a yes vote – it will simply remain exactly as it is now, just without Scotland, and it will be the continuing state and will retain all the current UK’s memberships and obligations.
Any other outcome would obviously be a clear breach of democracy and human rights given that 58 million people would become stateless without even being given a say on the matter – which would obviously be illegal under international law and would lead to the UN and the entire democratic world declaring the referendum void.
I get that some of you have a rabid fanatical desire to destroy the UK through a yes vote but you need to get this through your thick heads – it is not going to happen.
Don’t think I clicked twice 🙁
Further
Unification between Northern Cyprus (Turks) and Southern Cyprus (Greeks) was not completed until 2009.
5 years AFTER Accession to full EU Member status was completed for Cyprus.
Where was the Central Bank of a SPLIT Cyprus ?
Heres one: You say that in the event of independence, the MoD would remove shipbuilding contracts from clyde shipyards as they ‘simply dont build ships in other countries’. Given that, since the closure of Portamouth shipyards, there would be no shipyards in rUK after independence, where exactly would the rUK build its ships?
@Edinburgh Dave
“Ask the SNP, they’re the ones who are desperate to assert that we’ll definitely ‘remain’ a member of the EU after independence – indeed they’re so desperate to ensure our EU membership that they’re not even planning to give the people of Scotland a say as to whether we actually want to become a member or not.”
(*heaves exasperated sigh*)
I’ll keep playing along as I’ve nothing better to do right now, although when anyone in the No camp uses the SNP as an excuse for anything, they immediately lose any credibility I may have attributed to them as intelligent debaters…
Ok… So, to repeat what someone else said earlier (I would quote them, but this thread is getting long and I’d rather not have to read back through every post to find it), the SNP white paper is the sort of thing that all political parties would release as something of a manifesto to show what their own policies are (in this case, it describes the policies that would be pursued by an SNP government in the event of a Yes vote).
BUT… (and this is the bit that No voters seem to have difficulty with, perhaps due to all that BT propaganda clogging up rational thought processes!) in the event of a Yes vote, there will be an election to decide who will then rule over a newly independent Scotland.
The policies laid out in the SNP’s white paper will only come to pass IF (the “IF” is very important here!) only IF the SNP win said election and become the new Scottish government.
If another party wins, then they are of course free to pursue their own policies which will no doubt have been advertised to the public before the election.
This is something that hasn’t existed in Scotland before, a process known as “democracy” which in this case will take the form of Scottish people actually being able to vote for the people they want ruling over them, instead of the current system where we may as well use the ballot papers as toilet paper for all the effect they have, and where we’re stuck with whatever toffs get foisted onto us!
As I said before, the outcome of the Scottish government election will determine Scotland’s stance on joining or not joining the EU.
The SNP may not win that election, judging by the propaganda-fuelled ill feeling against them. And speaking for myself, I’m a member of a different party that has very different policies to the SNP.
So, getting back to my original point…
If we remove uncertain SNP policy from the equation, does the question of EU membership really matter in the independence debate?
If not, try moving on to a more relevant topic. I think there are a few people here who still have some patience left! 😉
@ Edinburgh Dave
“I get that some of you have a rabid fanatical desire to destroy the UK through a yes vote but you need to get this through your thick heads – it is not going to happen.”
Yes it will Edinburgh Dave, and it would be nice if you could at least have some fact to back up your rants.
“The United Kingdom is the result of The Treaty of Union. It only has two signatories and is between two equally sovereign partner KINGDOMS.”
Seriously, are you honestly this mind-blowingly thick?
Get this into your head – the treaty of union is IRRELEVANT to the sovereign state UK’s status as a sovereign state.
the united kingdom of Scotland and England is NOT THE SAME THING AS THE SOVEREIGN STATE UK OF GB AND NI.
The sovereign state UK of GB and NI is recognised as a sovereign state under international law – the treaty of union is IRRELEVANT to that.
The dissolution of the united kingdom of Scotland and England will NOT result in the dissolution of the sovereign state UK of GB and NI because they are NOT THE SAME THING.
Must admit it’s going to be interesting seeing how the EU handles the new country of England (+Wales) and Northern Ireland.
Hell it might be considered the continuing state with Scotland getting away debt-free as a result (ye-ha!), but the rUK will still have lost 1/3 of its landmass gone including 90% of the oil and the bulk of the decent fisheries.
Of course the UK rebate will not be sustainable and MEPs will need adjusting. Both of those will be up for negotiation. A weakened hand for the rUK certainly.
I guess it would be wise for an iScotland and irUK to team up in negotiations. Back each other up as a united front. Dave has already said he’ll do this and back Scotland’s position in the EU.
I recommend that we add this on to the other vital questions.
Will England rescind the Scottish Adjacent Water Boundaries Act of 1999 whereby under Tony Blair, a constitutionally illegal order was made to change the Scottish/English sea boundaries, mutually respected for centuries, but now transferring more than 6000 square miles of Scottish territorial waters to English jurisdiction.
hmmm.. edinburgh dave doesn’t appear to be too bright.
“Yes, the united kingdom of Scotland and England would be dissolved and cease to exist, but the current sovereign state UK is NOT the ‘Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England’, it the UK of GB and NI and is a sovereign state recognised as such under international law, and by the UN and the entire world – the treaties of union and 1707 are utterly irrelevant to the sovereign state UK and its status as sovereign state under international law.”
How can you have an united kingdom of GB if there is only one kingdom in it after independence?
UK will be a misnomer and certain people will snigger behind your back if you keep using the title.
I like WEANI (Wales,England and Northern Island)
@Edinburgh Dave says: 24 July, 2014 at 12:38 pm:
Blethers, Edinburgh Dave:
You have NO case unless you can prove there will be an rUK as the continued member of the EU. You have no proof that this is legally possible.
Fact The United Kingdom is just that – A Kingdom.
It has ONLY two legal signatory partner Kingdoms and they are equally sovereign.
On parting the legal term, “Status Quo Ante”, applies. Look it up.
There can be no one continuity member. Put up or shut up.
@ Edinburgh Dave, look at you, no fact just rants.
Edinburgh Dave you can let yourself go with the insults but its meaningless without facts. Come on, tell us the why behind your dissolution of the sovereign state UK stuff, because this is exactly what it is, unless you rip up the Act of Union which is what the creeps in the House of Lords tried to do.
Read the Edinburgh Agreement, its all good start to prepare you for Scottish nation statehood, Edinburgh Dave
Imagine the Airdrie Savings Bank being the central bank of iScotia!
Duggie the UK is dying 😥
re the red arrows: I was watching with my mother in law who is russian and she asked why they were displaying the Russian colours. I said it was a tribute to the sponsors of the Tory party. Actually, in truth I said I thought it was the Dutch flag.
In seriousness, who gives a … The more British nationalism that gets rammed down our throats is probably going to turn the fence sitters off, especially the sizeable number of non British born residents in Scotland who have a vote.
I quite like this edinburgh dave baiting,tag team game.
You win if you get him to SHOUT his responding post to you.
“Yes it will Edinburgh Dave”
Right. So where is your evidence that a yes vote will result in the sovereign state UK ceasing to exist?
If that is the case then:
1. Why has no political party (not even the SNP), no political expert, no legal expert, no professor, no international law specialist, no media outlet and no journalist EVER claimed that a yes vote will result in the sovereign state UK ending?
2. Why aren’t the UN, the EU, the the international court of human rights and the entire democratic world up in arms about a referendum that will be illegal under international law and the declaration of human rights in that it could result in 58 million people becoming stateless within even being able to have a say on the matter?
3. Why do the SNP insist that Scotland will continue to use the UK’s currency, and that Scots will be able to retain their UK passports – both of which, according to you, would cease to exist after a yes vote?
Of course, you probably know better than the UN, the EU, the SNP, every other political party, every democratic country in the world, every international law specialist, every political expert, every professor and every single media outlet don’t you.
Another cracker from Greg
link to gregmoodie.com
Could substitute Barrowman for Duggie.. 😀
“in the event of a Yes vote, there will be an election to decide who will then rule over a newly independent Scotland. The policies laid out in the SNP’s white paper will only come to pass IF (the “IF” is very important here!) only IF the SNP win said election and become the new Scottish government”.
You really need to learn a wee bit more about what’s going to happen after a yes vote.
The election will not be until May 2016 – 2 months after independence day and 20 months after the referendum.
The SNP have confirmed that in those 20 months between September 2014 and March 2016 they intend to negotiate for Scotland to become a member of the EU and Nato and to form a currency union with rUK.
They have stated that they expect all those negotiations to be concluded by independence in March 2016 and that they expect Scotland to officially become a member of the EU and Nato and form a currency union on that day – all before the election.
So everything you claim is wrong.
I believe that if we vote NO then…
The RUK will move to formally annex Scotland into a unitary UK state, abolish the Scottish Parliament and repeal Scots law and money.
We will be direct ruled from Westminster and English Secretary of States will be put in charge of everything and all separate Scottish departments like SEPA etc will close.
Is that Dave bloke a cybernat? Surely the nasty SNP must be paying him?
“Fact The United Kingdom is just that – A Kingdom”
There is literally no point in engaging further with you until you learn the difference between the united kingdom of Scotland and England, and the sovereign state UK of GB and NI.
Get back to me if you do, I won’t hold my breath.
“EU rules require every member state to have a central bank, so as to be able to participate in arrangements such as cross-border supervision or the rescuing of failing banks, as well as providing last-resort lending and as well as a stepping stone to joining the euro”
link to blogs.telegraph.co.uk
Jeez I’m really, really, REALLY bored with people who state categorically that Scotland would HAVE to join the Euro…. *YAWN*
Whilst talking about Scotland and having to join the Euro *YAWN* perhaps folks should consider how long it took each of the following countries to join the Euro after joining the E.U.
Bulgaria joined the E.U. in 2007
Croatia joined the E.U. in 2013
Czech Republic joined the E.U. in 2004
Hungary joined the E.U. in 2004
Lithuania joined the E.U. in 2004
Poland joined the E.U. in 2004
Romania joined the E.U. in 2007
Sweden joined the E.U. in 1995
Now consider an independent Scotland in 2016. Exactly when would people expect an independent Scotland to join the Euro, assuming the continued E.U. membership that the majority of people accept will be the case. More over exactly what currency do these people expect Scotland to be using. After all they claim that we would NOT be using sterling either in a currency union or independently on our own. So the question to the nay sayers out there is this. What currency will we be using on day 1 of independence and how long will we be using it before we join the Euro or are they claiming that we will be using from day 1 of independence?
@ Edinburgh Dave, loads of ranty queries that you already know the answers to as in, sterling is Scotland;s currency as much as England’s etc. “sovereign state UK ends” because the union will be dissolved and sovereignty returns to both England, its dependencies etc and to Scotland. Subsequently, UK will end.
Think of the UK as a legal entity Edinburgh Dave, like what sterling is, legal entities that switch or alter their status.
Easy peasy lemon squeezy:D
John Mcternan
article independent.starts
“But if I was living in Scotland”
bfh
for the amount he talks about Scotland I was very suprised to learn he doesn’t live here.
“How can you have an united kingdom of GB if there is only one kingdom in it after independence?”
The name is irrelevant, the sovereign state UK of GB and NI can call itself whatever it likes, regardless of how many kingdoms are in it.
Why is the TV coverage of the Scottish commonwealth games being run by the ENGLISH PROPAGANDA CORPORATION and it’s “stars”?
Way to go Aberdeen would love to be watching but unfortunately we live in a shite ‘union’ where Burton Albion carry more kudos…
The United Kingdom of Great Britain
IS England and Scotland
Great Britain = the Kingdoms of England and Scotland
Northern Ireland IS a province of the United Kingdom of Great Britain, which is why it states on my current passport “United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland”
The 1706 Treaty of Union, ratified by each parliament in the subsequent acts per each parliament made it clear and un-ambiguous that the Kingdoms of England and Scotland, would be the United Kingdom of Great Britain.
To try and make out otherwise is quite stupid, but that’s unionists for you – stupid.
Its noted that Welsh unionists are annoyed that Hazel Irvine called Wales a principality, with some Daily Mail types stating that Wales is not a principality, but a country.
Actually it is both and its correct to refer to Wales as a principality as it is a principality of England (like it or not). Funnily the BBC are apologising profusely for the supposed gaff.
According to the Daily Mail “The term principality refers to a sovereign state whose ruling monarch is a prince or a princess with an executive role in the state.
The Prince of Wales has not held such a position in the country for centuries”
So that means that Prince Charles isn’t really the Prince of Wales then as it doesn’t exist.
As I stated Wales is both country and principality, due to Wales being recently (2011) recognised as a country and that the term principality is more of a historic term (If it isn’t then I stand corrected and the title of Prince of Wales doesn’t exist).
Coming back to the Treaty of 1706, it stated that Wales was part of England (as it was a principality)
Lets be quite clear in that there are only two nation states, that of England and Scotland.
You know this Edinburgh Dave character posts in a very, very similar manner to Norsewarrior, Tellen, Duggie, that one could quite easily imaginable they are one and the same individual. Surely not? 😀 😀
@ Papadox, because they are in charge of Scotland and England! for now at least.
Another Gold for Scotland Hannah Miley 🙂
imagine even…
Gold for Scotland …Yeah!!!!!!!!
Congratulations Hannah Miley. A reward for all your hard work. Nice one.
“The 1706 Treaty of Union”
How many times does this need to be explained to you? the Treaty of Union is IRRELEVANT TO THE SOVEREIGN STATE UK OF GB AND NI’S STATUS AS A SOVEREIGN STATE.
It is recognised as a sovereign state under international law – the treaty of union is meaningless in that regard.
Edinburgh Dave really does pursue the “it’s all too difficult” line to the max.
He will no doubt have every part of his body crossed should Scotland vote Yes.
@Edinburgh Dave says: 24 July, 2014 at 12:44 pm:
Scotland is not an EU Country.
England is not an EU country.
The United Kingdom is not an EU country.
It is a bipartite KINGDOM and as such ceases to exist after it disunites.
Now, Edinburgh Dave, – that’s the wee problem you and your little friends have. You can presume till your eyes drop out but you cannot deny that when a bipartite union disunites the union has ended and the Status Quo Ante is two independent partners again.
Let’s see you prove otherwise?
Another Gold for Scotland Louise Renicks 😀 Go Team Scotland
Louise Renwicks just got GOLD in Judo, matches her sister’s gold! GO SCOTLAND! 😛
Just a pity the commentators were utter SHITE!
Now bored playing with the Troll, can someone put it back in its box, so we can talk about more important matters
Such as well done on Scotland winning another medal tally so far is 3 Gold, 1 silver and 1 Bronze – A big well done to our fellow (far healthier) Scots 😀
The commentary was awful in the Hannah Miley swim…the focus was all on who they really wanted to win, blatant bias, they should have had total focus on Hannah, it was clear they did not ‘expect’ this even though she had performed excellently earlier in the day. Go Hannah, well done…go Scotland!
Thankfully this rotten, corrupt and fundamentally unfair union between Scotland and England is coming to an end.
I seem to remember the British nationalist MSM declaring to us all that the London olympics had killed off any hopes of Scotland regaining its independence.
We now find, even at this early stage of the Glasgow games, the same British nationalist establishment [red arrows et al] desperately trying to keep unionist hopes alive.
They deserve a gold medal for desperation. A wonderful spectacle.
Edinburgh Dave
I think you are heading for being banned – not because you have a different view to the majority on this site, but because you keep making unsubstantiated assertions. You have been asked repeatedly to quote the authority which states that Scotland would need to have a central bank and you have failed to do so. (The torygraph does not count). You have made many assertions which you cannot back up. People have tried to explain it to you but you do not engage with their arguments (typical of the No campaign). Your assertion that the union of the Scottish and English Kingdoms can be dissolved without impacting the continuity of “The United Kingdom….” is the most bizarre statement you have made and typing your assertions in block capitals does not make it clearer.
So my polite request to you – before the Rev bars you is: Please either put up evidence for your assetions and build a logical case or go away. Please.
Hannah medal ceremony on now 🙂
…assertions…
Well here we go FoS about to be played, wonder if any of the commentators will show it true respect and SHUT THE ***K UP!
If Scotland votes Yes will the rUK government and MOD release all files restricted or otherwise relating to operations, events and incidents within Scottish territorial boundaries?
Tears and snotters blinnin me go Team Scotland
Samne here Croomps. 😛
International law, human rights-they apply to Scotland as well, particularly and absolutely with respect to having a legal and democratic referendum.
Neither state will be ‘stateless’, to imply so is silly but as for human rights, edinburgh dave who sounds like the usual troll drone that comes here (minus the excess I am voting Yes but it is impossible bollocks baggage) has to have a wee lie down…..”human rights’……..within EU legislation?
Theresa May of westminster wants to ban them………..so one minute dave will bleat about the uk’s ‘human right to exist when it is de facto obsolete legally, and on the other wants to invoke the human rights the westminster government plans to ban!
What a fucknut.
Yeah! The girlies are doing us proud!
Hope the fellas can do the same later tonight!
Great, just got handed the Saltire…brilliant!
Wonder when Louise’s medal ceremony is on I may be crying a river but it’s happy tears Go Scotland
Just watching the Commonwealth opening ceremony on iplayer and cannot believe that they sang God save the Queen or had the red white and blue from the Red Arrows!
Can anyone remember what was sung at the Edinburgh games in 1970?
Flower of Scotland is from the late 1960’s so it could have been used.
I thought that it was always the host countries national anthem that was sung at the beginning of any Commonwealth games?
Even if it was’t sung in 1970, it is being used as the anthem for this games.
I am just speechless.
Aye Gordon, your’e not alone in all the points you raise, it was noted by all!
Well folks in Dehli 2010 Scotland won 9 GOLD, 10 SILVER and 7 BRONZE. So we all know what the target is this time in Glasgow. 😉
GO TEAM SCOTLAND! 😛
Just in from talking to real people who have genuine questions, who is this ‘Edinburgher Dave’? He’s a wee bit silly. Rendition of “Come freedom” – the lovely Pumeza, gosh I love where I live – I doubt Ed Dave does.
Absolutely fantastic Hannah. Tears are rolling. 🙂
Did they know Michael Hesseltine blocked Oil boom in the Clyde in the 1980s? Drilling might have interfered with the subs.
link to sundaypost.com
@ Croompenstein – Cry Me A River xxx
Rev, or anyone else that knows of these things?
We all know when asking politicians questions they are extremly slippery.
If you ask for north sea revenues then thats all they will quote.
Surely when asking a question refering to oil revenue ect it should be a bit more inclusive of all the revenue from our (is it eez?) internationaly recognised sea bed? As in the oil and gas tax revenue and including all taxes, fees and licences paid by companys operating in our eez and including exploration and drilling licence paid within our boundarys and explicitly ask for figures for the area of pre 1999 boundary changes. (Are exploration and drilling license fees(tax?) included in “oil revenues already or hidden elsewhere?)
Anyone help with this?
Questions 6-8 are very weak. They can all answered “Of course, no individual can make those guarantees” More specifically,
If we are no longer part of the EU then it have followed a referendum . That’s democracy.
There will be a publically funded health service. Whether that is fully funded is a subjective judgement. Responsibility for that spending will rest at Holyrood.
2020 is potentially two general elections away. Predicting things after the next one is difficult, looking even further ahead is impossible.
“Questions 6-8 are very weak. They can all answered “Of course, no individual can make those guarantees” “
Sigh. Yes. That’s the point.
@Paula Rose – Cry Me A River xxx
I almost cried when I realised Duggie was back but there’s something very emotional about Scotland winning Gold 🙂
O B E Where are you.
Dont listen to them Edinburgh Dave, you’re like a cute little pet, roll over and lets tickle your tum again, who’s a good boy.
@ Croompenstein, The River Of No Return
Over on one of the other pages someone who was at Celtic Park last night says that the double sided flags were being handed out by Help for Heroes.
Flooplepoop says:
like Big Wean?
I read a tweet earlier today from someone who’s daughter’s friend was told to remove her YES Scotland and Palestine badges before entering Glasgow Green, I think yesterday, otherwise they would have been confiscated. Utterly disgusting, denying people the right to wear badges in support of causes they believe in!
I thought Hannah Miley was fantastic.It got me over how angry I was about last night!
Well done Louise Rennicks GOLD
@ Croompenstein – confidence dear, we are going to win, this is an event that will reverberate around the world – we have it in our grasp to make history.
3 Golds on the first day! Go Scotland!
Everyone talk to someone.
And there are still the prospects of more GOLDS to come yet K1. 😛
O/T Many injured children
link to twitter.com
Until Hammond, I didnt think there could be a worse Foreign Secretary than Hague. But, as usual, the tories surprise us
Watching our PM & Foreign Secretary endorse the brutal massacre of Palestinian men, women & children sickens me to the core
Tony Blair’s secret talks w. Israel (along with British Gas) about Gaza’s gas reserves link to globes.co.il …
link to theecologist.org
Does one get gold for running round in circles? Bless.
I know Lesley-Anne…it’s just brilliant, and I don’t even ‘do’ sport, but I will embrace these games as it’s our show to the world, and it’s my city that is hosting!
😀
Edward at 717pm,
I agree with everything you say, except the final piece about Wales in the treaty of union. The treaty of union does not mention Wales once, as in 1707, the term ‘England’ was used to mean both England and Wales (such was the arrogance of Westminster, even then). Unless I am very mistaken.
The point remains however, that the current United Kingdom was formed between England and Scotland from the treaty and acts of union. Independence breaks that treaty, and the UK in its current form ceases to exist. Now, following Scottish independence, EWNI could of course call itself anything it wants, including ‘United Kingdom’, but importantly, such a NEW ‘United Kingdom’ in whatever guise is not and will never be the same legal and international entity that was the United Kingdom prior to Scottish independence.
Of course London likes to pretend otherwise, as it suits them to do so.
@Paula
You would do if it wasn’t for the straight bits in between
@Edinburgh Dave says: 24 July, 2014 at 12:38 pm:
Total balderdash, Edinburgh Dave.
Legally, when the United Kingdom disunites, Westminster is finished.
The Bank of England is a United Kingdom owned asset. It does not belong to the Kingdom of England.
There are no agreements that lay down how the only two signatory Kingdoms should share these assets and certainly nothing says along current population proportions.
On independence the two Kingdoms will be equal in the eyes of the several agreements are treaties they had with non-UK organs and countries.
You are basing your whole case upon surmise presumption and wishful thinking. Upon the United Kingdom disuniting Westminster ends as the UK parliament.
Facts are that on the United Kingdom parliament being formed the Westminster parliament of ENGLAND sat and wound itself up. However, in Edinburgh the people rioted and the parliament did not officially end. It was prorouged by proclamation around the streets of the city. When Winnie Ewing opened the first modern parliament she reconvened the old parliament.
Thus, as England has no parliament of her own and Westminster is the UK parliament that ends upon the union disuniting then the Kingdom of England is left without a legal parliament. So Dave – prove me wrong?
“No it doesn’t. A currency union is not an obligation, a system of currency is not an ‘asset’.”
Not an asset eh? I doubt Philip Hammond would agree with you there Edingurgh Dave, since he tried to trade a CU against Trident did he not?
Are you suggesting the UK Gov is prepared to trade a billion pound asset against a worthless system of currency? Not a chance.
According to BBC presenters the athletes can be classified as;
English
Welsh
Irish
and ……… wait for it
Scottish-British
I kid you not.
Funny I have no problems watching the Commonwealth Games, well I do but I think they are the same as everyone else’s. 😉
I just love watching OUR boys and girls going out and doing what they do best and at the end of the day they even get a medal… BRILLIANT! The crowds are doing the Scots athletes proud as well.
Despite all the hype about London (spit) I firmly believe Glasgow has managed to outshine London. The only down side is what I hinted at earlier… the commentators from, where else but the BBC!
Well done Aberdeen come on St Johnstone and Motherwell, turning into a good day for Scottish sport 🙂
Phil Robertson says:
“Questions 6-8 are very weak. They can all answered “Of course, no individual can make those guarantees”
Cut Stu some slack Phil. What do you want, Pulitzer prize material EVERY day ?
😉
“Of course not, nothing is guaranteed about the future.”
Bingo,
which means Edinburgh Dave,
your not from Edinburgh,
I dont even think your from Scotland, because you grasp of the campaign is about as complete as Alan Cochrane’s or Simon Johnson’s
because if you were, you definitely would not have said have said THAT,
since if you were, you would have known the Better together campaign are demanding exactly THAT of the YES campaign,
So cumon “Dave” who and where are you really?
because you sure as hell aren’t who or where you claim to be.
Scottish-British
I kid you not.
Well there you go folks good old BBC keeping politics out of the Commonwealth Games. erm no they’re not with comments like that they’re not! Oh well it’s only those upity Scots they’re too wee, too poor and too stupid to notice!
@ handwaggling – straight bits? Gosh, so complicated these games. Is it just a case of winning?
muttley79
You know this Edinburgh Dave character posts in a very, very similar manner to Norsewarrior, Tellen, Duggie, that one could quite easily imaginable they are one and the same individual. Surely not?
I know of Duggie – this one seems to use same vocabulary as Longshanker aka @ergasiphobe on the stalker site ah Dinnae ken. Crossed a few phrases and kept coming back to same site.
Could be wrong of course – I don’t claim to hold knowledge as if it were a possession only I possess.
I’m too thick to understand aw this constitutional carry-on… just gonnae vote yes and my vote will cancel the troll’s vote out.
Respect to Alastair Brownlee who picked up a saltire along with his England flag after winning Triathlon.Maybe better together could learn something from that gesture.Yeh but we hate the English don’t we!
Stephanie Inglis has just won SILVER in the judo. 🙂
Right – had a cup of furriner tea, where’s the troll?
Curtis, it seems, is omnipresent.
link to theglobeandmail.com
@Paula
No apparently you can’t win unless you do your 5 a day 🙁
Don’t think my country is to poor, stupid or wee to manage itself, but the elite and the establishment do.
However EBC branch office at pacific quay isn’t even trusted to go to the toilet themselves without permission from London. They are to wee, really stupid and obedient!
Is there a Scottish coverage of the London Commonwealth Games on BBC?
Just watching Louise Renwicks getting her gold medal and the crowd are BRILLIANT singing their hearts out! 😛
Oh look loss of sound when talking to Louise Renicks brother and boy friend. Hmm I’m betting THAT never happens when they talk to any of the England club!
@Tam.
I’m wie you. They can thrash out all this nonsense after a Yes vote.
Here’s to absent friends.
🙂
Totalitarian state of Britain.
link to youtube.com
Gillie : seriously ? I give up.
cynicalHighlander says:
Totalitarian state of Britain.
Well there’s a surprise CH… NOT!
Ach don’t worry we’re just pesky Scots who are too wee, too poor and too stupid we’ll never figure it out that we’ve won anything in Glasgow… except poverty!
@Edinburgh Dave
Perhaps, but you seem to assume that the SNP are the only ones who will be involved in Scotland’s side of those negotiations.
Are BT actually scared of the SNP? The way they keep talking about them suggests either fear or intense fascination… Hard to tell which.
This article started of about the blue book and questions to mps then the whole thing is hijacked by Edinburgh Dave to divert you away from nearly all your questions , and you fell for it it was obvious he was a troll you should have ignored him and concentrated on the questions he did not go near vote yes
If Scotland were presently an independent country, considering a referendum on whether or not to join England in September, all things considered in a reasonably educated and pragmatic frame of mind, would YOU vote yes or no? There’s a question worth asking.
“If Scotland were presently an independent country, considering a referendum on whether or not to join England in September, all things considered in a reasonably educated and pragmatic frame of mind, would YOU vote yes or no? There’s a question worth asking.”
We asked it in a Panelbase poll last year. The outcome was a 3:1 majority for No.
To those who think it’s a bad idea I’d say that apart from anything else it signifies to elected representatives of all persuasions that yes or no the days of not having to justify their party policies and positions to their constituents are over. (and that goes for the SNP as well which is the answer to why they should be trusted.)
I now expect my representatives to:-
A. Be honest with me.
B. Do what they say they will do.
C. Justify their actions.
@Edinburgh Dave says: 24 July, 2014 at 12:42 pm:
Balderdash! Edinburgh Dave.
You cannot even prove there can legally be a United Kingdom when, not if, Scotland disunites the United Kingdom. Yet here you are spouting the rectally sphinctered bovine waste matter blindly espoused by the numpties at Better together. Much like some long dead pythonesque stuffed parrot with a fake voice box stuffed up its anus and worked by a string tied around your index finger.
Sheesh! You’re not even a half decent troll.
Just read the start of the article on that link to the globeandmail,canny read any more,is it a real newspaper?
Please my dear friends – talk to our people, care about our future – be generous, share, love and care for everyone.
handclapping
DRY,BUGGERS,
R, US
????
@Bugger(the panda)
More like in weener.
Globe and Mail,
errr
No
gerry Parker
(raises Sol aloft) Aye Gerry…tae absent friends.
I thought I’d just leave Ivor McKee to sort everything out. There’s the first pick for Team Scotland right there.
Ask them if this form and extent of state intervention continues today
link to en.wikipedia.org
Floopledoop
Yer and are you in NZ just now?
Musselguy?
Orrabest from rural, no sea food, France.
4th Gold and a Silver!
Calum Tait
Michael Jamieson
Ross Murdoch has won GOLD Michael Jamieson has won SILVER in 200M Breaststroke!
GO TEAM SCOTLAND! 😛
Yaaass, mon Scotland!! Well done lads!! Commentary is disgraceful, not a single Scottish voice, this will backfire horrendously for the BBC, hope this boosts the turnout on Sunday.
Gordon E asks: Does anyone remember what was sung at the Edinburgh Games in 1970? Sorry, Gordon, can’t remember what was sung at the beginning but will always remember the closing ceremony with pipe and other bands and everyone singing “Will ye no’ come back again?” Tears everywhere and one of the most moving moments at any major sporting event ever. Felt so proud of my ‘wee’ country all those years ago. ‘They’ can never take those memories away from you, no matter how hard ‘they’ try.
It became evident that government agents had actively fomented the unrest to bring radicals into the open. The insurrection was largely forgotten as attention focussed on better publicised Radical events in England. Two years later, enthusiasm for the visit of King George IV to Scotland successfully boosted loyalist sentiment, ushering in a new-found Scottish national identity.[1]
The medal table shows us just 4 bronze short of the mighty Aussies, wow!!
Y’know in the previous swim races, 2 scots came 4th and were completely ignored by commenters, but they just spent time speaking to the english guy who came 4th in the same interview with the two socts who won gold and silver! Wtf is this, am I paranoid or is this quite blatant bias commenting thoughout?
@ Croompenstein at 8.21
But you realise that Aberdeen’s win doesn’t count. The goals came from Rooney and McGinn, and they’re both furriners.
Congratulations to Australia women’s 4 X 100M freestyle swimmers who have just won GOLD and broken the World Record in the process. 😛
K1, I just noticed that. Also BBC camera work involves panning quickly away as soon as anyone in the down waves a Saltire, but close ups of Aus flag with emphasis on the UJ in the corner? I’m getting paranoid or they really are all out to get us… 🙂
@Edinburgh Dave says: 24 July, 2014 at 12:46 pm:
“Very odd.”
What is odd is that you are attempting to claim a United Kingdom can exist when a bipartite United Kingdom disunites. Can you give a shred of evidence to prove it can?
Don’t hold your breath waiting for any reply to that one Robert. 😛
Re: Commonwealth Games anthems.
Had a discussion earlier today with a pal who bemoaned the ‘booing’ when ‘God Save The Queen’ was announced.
Found this:
“At the Commonwealth Games between 1962 and 2006 Team Scotland used ‘Scotland the Brave’, whose lyrics were written by the Glasgow journalist Cliff Hanley (1922-1999).
Recent research has established that they were a product of Hanley’s writing for the variety stage in Glasgow, and were originally performed as a rousing patriotic finale to the first act of a pantomime during the winter of 1952-3.
Both the words and music of ‘Flower of Scotland’, the current anthem of Team Scotland, and a leading contender for an official national anthem, were written in about 1964 by Roy Williamson (1936-1990), a former art student in Edinburgh, and a leading figure in the city’s folk music revival.
By 1990 hostility to the playing of ‘God Save the Queen’ at rugby internationals when England played Scotland at Murrayfield, Edinburgh, prompted the Scottish Rugby Football Union to seek a more acceptable sporting anthem. The choice of ‘Flower of Scotland’, with its echoes of Bannockburn, heralded a memorable Scottish rugby victory over England that year.”
(I think I posted this elsewhere on WOS today. If so, apologies for repetition.)
Um – nice to see kiddies running in circles, but grown-ups? Bit silly.
@K1
Its a disgrace, a deliberate attempt to downplay Scotland’s successes by allowing almost blanket coverage of one other team – England and its 4 pundits. Imagine this was the Commonwealth in Engalnd and 2 Scottish punters were commentating English swimmers getting gold and silver in the medal ceremony?
Edinburghdave,
Lets cut the pish fella.
Will Scotland be in the EU after indy? Yes it will and for reasons you know as well as anyone. Oil, gas, fishing, energy. Who in their right mind wouldn’t want all that in their club? Can you imaging being the Spanish employment minister telling a third of their fishing fleet that they’re being fucked on the dole because they have nowhere else to fish? Or how about the Dutch when their spot market no longer have access to punt north sea oil? Or how about England what with their dependency on Scottish generation capacity?
Will Scotland end up in a currency union with rest of UK? Yes it will for reasons you know as well as anyone.
Are you just trolling? Yes you are. Now fuck off and stop making a tit of yourself.
In the big 200m race where Ross won, the camera was on the english guy who was speeding ahead for most of the race, like they were willing him to be the one, even though the camera focus should have been broader, especially with 3 Scots in the centre and particularly because Micheal Jamieson was the big draw! Lineker just there, say it’s been a big medal day for the Aussies…slight pause and the Scots, I mean it’s the host nation, is it not usual to big up the medals for the host nation in thess types of events.
We really needed to have Scottish commenters, what it says to me is that this has been a politcal decision by the bbc to employ english commenters. They almost can’t bring themselves to wholeheartedly endorse the scottish wins, I can’t obviously back this up in any real evidential way, which is why I put a question mark on my previous comment.
I also agree about the camera work staying off the saltires but happy to focus on the english and others’ flags at the drop of a hat. It actually makes me angry, their pettiness.
Makes me tearful when they play Flower of Scotland, and seeing our athletes emotions…god I love our emotion and passion.
Oh well each to their own.
All the Scots team singing the anthem full bung, so fckin proud of them!!
Oops.
link to twitter.com
Well they are singing Kev when they aren’t filled up with tears, bless them. Great to hear the crowd in full fettle singing though. I think that kind of adds to the tears factor, I know it does for me. 😛
Edinburgh Dave says:24 July, 2014 at 12:48 pm:“You dont need to reapply to the tennis club just cause you and the wife get divorced”
Correct, if I’m already a member of it.
But, to further your analogy, if I’m part of the tennis club because my wife is a member and we then get divorced – I would obviously then have to apply to become a member myself.
Get it?
Flower of Scotland – very silly song.
Careful Paula the way some folks on here are feeling tonight I’d be rather careful where you tread concerning Flower of Scotland. 😉
Come Freedom – a song of truth.
@Ciolin Watson
Wow, what a donation by Pietro. Thats great. Lets hope its put to good use.
We dinnae ken the words to that one yet Paula. 😛
Can we no just keep Flower of Scotland for a wee while longer, please, pretty please, pretty please with a cherry on top? 😉
@ Lesley Anne – where is a home?
The BBC are behaving like total arseholes. After that race they didn’t interview either Murdoch or Jamieson who were standing either side of the English Bronze winner who was interviewed. Just WTF.
And now a roundup of how England’s day went, wiil I have to wait to see how my country did today BBC, bit like the news and weather?
@Robert Peffers
David frae Embra obviously lives in the belief that England can just pick and choose but Scotland cannot.
As the old saying goes Paula Home is where the heart is. 😉
Late to this thread and I’m not reading all the comments but some of these are obvious and probably have already been mentioned.
12. Will we still have free prescriptions and care for the elderly if we vote No?
13. Will we still have free university education?
14. Will the elderly still get free bus passes?
15. Do you agree with Tory plans to leave the European Convention on Human Rights?
16. How much worse will the total UK debt have to get for the IMF/EU to step in?
17. If we vote No, when the No voters realise they have been had, would you prefer another referendum or would you rather a Scottish party were elected into government in Scotland on a mandate for unilateral declaration of independence?
18. Upon independence, will you remain in Scotland?
19. How do you think future Scottish historians will view the No campaign?
20. Alex Salmond is due to retire during the first term of office as Scottish Prime Minister. Who would you like to succeed him?
WTF Is all this talk of British athletes and the constant mention of engerland, Gary Crisps and his cohorts are doing the BT lot no favors 🙂
Keep it up idiots, my facebook page is buzzing with pissed of friends declaring to vote Yes, who were not giving a shite before the games.
Commentator in the Womens 4×100 Relay said British twice when referring to England coming second behind the Aussie World record time
P.S. The Rev, of course, got all the good ones.
Robert Peffers
Who gives a monkey’s
.
Good night
I thought I heard that westie but decided it was my dodgy hearing and my over zestful gutted feeling from the constant pushing of all things Engerland by BBC. Glad you heard this as well now I know my hearing is not quite as dodgy as I first thought. 😛
Lesley-Anne – how can I sing a song that is so parochial? I want to sing a song that exemplifies the land I choose to live in. If the people who were born in Scotland choose to use ‘Flower of Scotland’ so be it, but I would rather sing “Come Freedom”.
Inverclyde kids street footie song I remember.
We can shoot like Gary Lineker
Aim at the Firth and hit the Spinnaker
Lost his crisps but we just dinnae kerr.
Poor old Gary Lineker – Salt’n’Vinegar.
Rev Stuart Campbell – let`s look forward to the realities of an Independent Scotland.
We will have only around 68 X MSP`s and a handful of MP`S who will actually “NEGOTIATE” with around 70 or 80 Westminster Depts. on Independence for Scotland ?
At the same time we expect these few people to “NEGOTIATE” with all the other worldwide bodies like the EU, NATO, UN. etc. and simple logic informs us that multiple failures will happen.
How many “Failures” can Scotland accept ?
The Rep. of Ireland is a case in point in 1921 when they signed every document (without due diligence) and results in the fact that, only last year – within six months – they got £45 billion from Westminster — whilst months later — the 2014/15 BUDGET for the Scottish Parliament was set at only – £28.6 billion.
Get a GRIP of REALITY.
This year, Scotland is not a Tax Haven but next year …..?
There’s much worse than Lineker and Co guys – I’ve spent a fair chunk of the day tuning in to R5L – what utter tosh that is. Lost count of the number of times we got Britain/British when they were following English triathletes. Then the build up for Sir Brad.
And did you know there’s a lake at Strathclyde Park, the same one Sir Steve rowed to three golds in back in ’86. It’s appalling, think it’ll have to be the iPod on tomorrow.
@Paula Rose – Lesley-Anne – how can I sing a song that is so parochial?
They could sing Hands,Knees and Boomps-a-Daisy and I’d still be greetin
Someone hud me back and talk me down !
Just read london evening standard article re hammond and red arrows then i watch a bit of the games to hear commentary on a Scotland england judo final. All about the english girl.
Scunnered with the lot.
Really didn’t realise how much of an occupied region we are until all this started. Used to shout at the tv a lot but i’m way past that now.
Well in fairness Paula Flower of Scotland has been the unofficial then official Scottish anthem for decades. No doubt once we are independent there will a new anthem to be decided upon that will reflect the new and vibrant Scotland of the 21st Century. If you can perhaps it might be best to bite your lip. lie back and think of … well just think maybe. 😛
@Paula Rose
I’m wie you on that song, I hope it’s not voted our national anthem
My vote would be for Auld Lang syne unless Edinburgh Dave
want’s to bore the arse aff us about how being sung across the whole world means we cannot claim it for our own anymore.
How many times can Sharon Davis say British in one interview.If you were a neutral look at this.We are at the pool in Scotland’s home games.The national broadcaster has chosen Gary Linekar English football player as anchorman.And wait for it a total of 4 other presenters all English!Not even a token jock in our own nation.Why do we put up with this!Transpose this to Manchester.Alan Hanson as anchorman and 4 Scots to commentate on England’s games.BBC Scotland had to get London to run the show.
Hi Chic.
UDI – that’s gone through my mind in the past couple of days, for some reason. My thoughts went like this…
There’s a NO vote in September. The (less than fully knowledgeable) NO voters are triumphant, thinking things will ‘stay the same’.
A Tory/UKIP coalition becomes the UK government after the 2015 UK election.
Bills are put before parliament to dissolve Holyrood and unite all the individual NHS’s into one UK organisation, ripe for privatisation.
The Barnett Formula is abolished.
Scots are appalled. The SNP holds an unsanctioned referendum in late 2015 and we THEN vote for UDI.
Fanciful?
“There’s much worse than Lineker and Co guys”
Agree, he is one of the fairer ones and comes over as a good bloke. Especially for a fottballer.
… and now the news, weather and sport where you are.
I agree with all those who say ignore Embra Dave and all his other atavars. He has really clogged up this thread today, and is a waste of reading time.
Great and uplifting to see the Scottish team celebrating so passionately. Personally I did not think that Saltires were lacking on TV coverage and i certainly did not notice any Union flags, but perhaps I am not too bothered. I think this will be a great two weeks for Yes.
Watching BBC2 now- opens with ‘What a day for Scotland’, then cuts straight to Eng playing hockey – first round. Atrocious.
Atavars or avatars take your pick.
Think I’d have to agree with on that one Croomp. 😛
Graeme and B.J. I’m whole heartedly with you guys there. It wasn’t just the Judo where the Scots lass won SILVER they did either I noticed when the older Renicks lass won her GOLD as well. Utterly disgusting and despicable!
As for Sharon Davies well I suppose we can’t expect anything better from her can we?
@Bob Sinclair
They interviewed all the swimmers. The English Bronze medalist was spoken to last.
The interview with Jamieson was awkward though as he was clearly gutted to have finished second.
We are a nation – Cry freedom.
I’m crying Paula I’m crying! 😛
Oh well why not…
link to youtube.com
Juan P – Ok, I take back what I said, almost – I did’nt hear the first 2 interviews.
@Brian
I think on a No vote measures will be put through at lightening speed to ensure there is not another. Like the Canadian Government effectively did, by insisting that all Provinces of Canada would have to agree to Quebec independence. (Not recognised by Quebec) or by declaring any future referendum unconstitutional.
However, a general election in Scotland won on a basis of UDI mandate, would be much harder to thwart (without removing the Scottish Parliament).
I don’t think there is any point in getting in a lather about God Save the Queen. It is played at any event like this where the Queen is present, not just in the UK but in other countries – “Commonwealth Realms” – where she is sovereign. Countries like Australia and Canada. The SNP wants Scotland to be a Commonwealth Realm so in the event of independence there will still be plenty of occasions where it is played and sung in Scotland.
As for the “anti Scottish” verse – that was in circulation for less time than the ’45 itself. At the same time there was a competing Jacobite anti-Presbyterian verse.
Mair pish fae McTernan.
link to scotsman.com
They’re cackin themselves noo.
Countries like Australia and Canada
They don’t introduce it as ‘the national anthem’
Let’s all congratulate the beeb on such excellent coverage of The Commonwealth Games from the host nation…
England..???
Like Ed Miliband, can no commentator pronounce MURDOCH?
I don’t have a problem per se concerning GSTQ when her nibs is coming and going but these games are the Glasgow Commonwealth Games. Glasgow is in Scotland and so as a matter of respect to the people of Glasgow and Scotland OUR National Anthem should have been played at some stage during the opening ceremony. Failure to do so is just a total lack of respect!
Just a wee question – go to Switzerland and die, death sentence in the USA and linger.
Anyone know if an English victory in the Games has yet been described as a ‘Home Nations ‘ victory?
Whereas as far as I can see all Scottish Golds have been described at some point as ‘Home Nations’.
Mind you the Home Nations theme has been doing the rounds on the BBC for some time.
Why don’t the U.S.A. and Switzerland team up. I mean there are never any complaints from people going to Switzerland to die so maybe U.S.A. could send their Death Row criminals to Switzerland to die. 😉
Oh, this is just fab. Will send out as appropriate. Thanks muchos Wings fellows!
Oh FFS – its games.
London Olympics I was happy for London,England ,but coverage for glasgow,Scotland seems to be hijacked by London media,not the same feel
Question for my MP:
a girl at work told me that the quality of politicians in Scotland was crap and, paraphrasing her words, that we coudnae run a parliament nor an independent country, and all the Scots with any talent leave Scotland. If we vote no, will you promise to introduce some policies that make our people less crap, or would you say that we are genetically programmed to be crap (in this latter case, can we have more immigrants to improve our gene pool)?
Oh Lesley-Anne, you are a gem xxx
link to twitter.com
Newsnet commentators not happy with the bbc commentators
I aim to please Paula. 😉 XXX
Too explain my last post.
Did anyone hear Lineker exclaim at just after ten o’clock…(22:09 to be precise)
“Englands Colin Oates fights for the Edinburgh Ratho Club,so he is guaranteed home support.”
Nothing like a glaikit naebody,tae git aw wrang.
@Blair paterson says: 24 July, 2014 at 8:53 pm:
“This article started of about the blue book and questions to mps then the whole thing is hijacked by Edinburgh Dave to divert you away from nearly all your questions , and you fell for it”
If you fondly imagine we were fooled by Edinburgh Dave as anything other than a bag of wind you’re a lot more gullible than we are. Edinburgh Dave had lost the actual debate he attempted to hijack with his first post.
Like the whole empty BT campaign they have based their beliefs on nothing more than wishful thinking and falsehoods. Facts are provable but they are playing with words that have precise legal meanings. Meanings that are not what they say they are.
A kingdom is not a country – it is a royal realm.
The United Kingdom is exactly what is says it is.
A royal realm that is a union of only two former independent kingdoms. The kingdoms of Scotland and England.
Westminster is not the union – it is the parliament of the union. There is no evidence anywhere that either kingdom was other than equally sovereign. Thus the action of either kingdom withdrawing from the joint parliament is NOT to leave the parliament as that of the other kingdom. It is to disunite and end it.
Edinburgh Dave is attempting to avoid those facts and claim the Union parliament for England and to claim that the Kingdom of England is the continued united kingdom while that is not possible as when England entered into the treaty it already encompassed both Ireland and Wales.
He knows it and we know it but he’s never going to own up to it. Neither is he going to produce evidence to disprove it. Why did you think he ignored the challenge to fetch proff?
goldenayr says: Mair pish fae McTernan
Awful stuff, isn’t it? Even on the level of PR apologist fare it ranks no higher than mouse droppings.