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Wings Over Scotland

If you listen, you can hear

Posted on November 24, 2013 by

97 to “If you listen, you can hear”

  1. scottiedug says:

    Wow!  Let us shout it from the rooftops.      Made my morning!

  2. Graeme Purves says:

    ‘Great stuff!  We’re making progress!

  3. Craiging_619 says:

    Wowzers. Is that the sound of the first paper (albeit a weekly) coming out for Yes? Two or three of my friends have made similar noises in the last week, from a position of solid No/Undecided, and once the genie’s out the bottle it’s surely difficult to stuff it back in.

  4. Juteman says:

    This has to be the most unbiased article i’ve read in any of the MSM.

  5. Bubbles says:

    Aha! It would seem my carry-oot plans are still on the table but for an altogether better reason. Let’s celebrate!

  6. Franariod says:

    The real future of Scotland within the union is starting to sink in , but will the rest of the media begin to give an un-biased view ?

  7. Craig M says:

    What I find astounding is that so called Scottish politicians in Labour and the LibDems would actually support the negative viewpoint. I think the clue to their thinking is the comment regarding “audacity” in producing the White Paper. Unionist politicians simply lack talent and intellect. In fact, I would go so far as to say that they are so far removed from the ability to even articulate positive ideas that their default position is effectively created for them. They are nothing more than passengers on the Westminster gravy train. Listening to Carmichael on Marr, it is painfully obvious that he is completely out of his depth and this is supposed to be a Government Minister! He’s a puppet and all he can articulate is what his boss David Cameron and Tory high command tell him to say. I would extend this to all Unionist politicians. Devoid of skill and also, crucially, compassion. Cruel puppets devoid of compassion.

  8. Marcia says:

    As the majority of the press is controlled outwith Scotland don’t expect miracles.

  9. Luigi says:

    Forget the odd ignoramus that we all encounter on occasion.  All this information is getting through to the masses.  It is quietly being processed in the minds of people.  I think BT are in for a really nasty shock, around Easter time, I would suggest.  That’s when the rats in the trap turn on each other.  It won’t be pretty.

  10. Bunter says:

    When I read that Herald piece Rev, it seemed like it could have been written by yourself. 

  11. balgayboy says:

    Just been watching this Julie MacDonald piece on Al Jazeera today…was not to impressed with it.

  12. Graeme Purves says:

    We need to start demanding that the Unionists spell out exactly what dependence means.

  13. Gordon Hay says:

    I do hope that this is a sign that the MSM have finally smelt the coffee, though I still remember the Scotsman editorial claiming that they were going to give the newly elected SNP government a fair crack of the whip which didn’t turn out to be true.
    Perhaps this explains the more measured tones of M Gardham’s piece yesterday.

  14. the journeyman says:

    Not seeing Car-crash-michael being Marred this morning has left me still inspired by what I read about RIC13 yesterday. Then reading this article and NS’s precursor to the white paper launch, I find myself in a strangely very positve mood with a new found reassured sense of my future. 
    This may well prove to be a momentous couple of weeks in the history of Scotland as an Independent country.

  15. Castle Rock says:

    What a frightening thought.
    Scotland dragged out of Europe by UKIP, another Tory Government in England in 2015 with perhaps one or even no Tory MP’s returned from Scotland, Barnett Formula scrapped, we become the laughing stock of Europe and the World, powers taken away from the Parliament and returned to Westminster, Darling, Davidson and Carmichael are given seats in the Lords for stabbing Scotland in the back, powers over planning clawed back and nuclear power stations are built all over Scotland and the Tories and UKIP being to warm to the job in hand and start putting the boot in big time.
    Still, at least the Labour Party will be pleased.

  16. Linda's back says:

    Great stuff in Sunday Herald but it is an oasis in the pro unionists press and outnumber ten to one.  That’s why it is essential that the BBC / STV are impartial.
    On Radio Scotland this morning it was reported that latest Sunday Times Panelbase poll shows YES at 37%, NO at 45% and don’t know 15% a gap of only 9% and all to play for but I cannot find any link to this.

  17. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    13 published posts in, so maybe a slight OT is OK?
    D Milliband is today accusing the Tories of running a “fear and smear” campaign against Labour!
    Can anyone find a White Rabbit as I am beginning to think that Labour has found a parallel World at the bottom the hole they have been digging in Scotland.

  18. M4rkyboy says:

    Watched that this morning.I knew the Lassie lived in London straight away without being told.Her view was distorted through the London media prism to a hilarious degree.
    I was reminded of when i first played Poker at a casino.I had got into the game and read 6 or 7 books on the subject.At the casino one of the guys at my table was talking Poker but using phrases straight out of Doyle Brunsons ‘Super system’.I didnt even have to try against this particular player because i knew his every move before he made it.Quite funny.

  19. Marcia says:

    You need to pay to see the article in the Sunday Times but here is what I posted on the last thread, I found it via twitter.

  20. Ellie says:

    I don’t know what has happened in the last two weeks but there seems to be some sort of shift in the Scottish Media; something has changed and that is being reflected in the stories being printed.  There is a definite upswing in if not quite pro independence stories then certainly articles which question the pro-union line.
    I thought it was just a momentary lapse, but that’s several now and even a Herald opinion piece.  I wonder what has happened?  

  21. Ken500 says:

    The truth will out

    That’s what has been happening since 1928

    Scotland revenues taken by the UK Treasury. Now it is being outed not a minute too late, and not much longer too wait.

    There is no black hole in Scotland’s revenues just what the UK Treasury takes. The rest of the UK spends £120Billion more than Scotland. Scotland raises more and spends less than the rest of the UK.

    Roll on the Independence vote. Unionists turkeys voting for Christmas.

    The MSM line is breaking. Finally some real news.

  22. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Ellie and others.
    Beware false dawns as they can be and have been used to undermine the hope of people.
    Raise their hopes up and then knock them down. It destroys the base of hope.

  23. Ken500 says:

    Yes 37% No 45% it just needs a swing of 5% even without the don’t knows. The don’t knows will not vote No. More likely to vote Yes or not vote.

  24. Robert Louis says:

    I just watched Darling interviewed on SKY news at around 10:25am today. It was a most telling interview. When talking his usual anti Scottish nonsense about independence, his face was awash with facial tics and twitches, to an extreme degree. At the end of the interview, he was asked about the failing co-op bank, and his facial twitches almost completely vanished.

    The strain for the anti independence group, better together is starting to show, in very clear ways. Telling lies and making misleading statements daily will eventually take its toll.

    I’m not religious, but perhaps the better together mob will gradually realise the truth that is self evident from the biblical quote ‘be sure your sins will find you out’.

    My guess is something is going very wrong with better together, and they know it. The pressure must be intense. Every day, I grow even more convinced we will win.

  25. scottish_skier says:

    That Herald article’s gone on Mrs SS’s facebook.
    Gloves off time.

  26. Robert Louis says:

    The fact is, Scotland DOES have a fiscal black hole’ – it’s called Westminster.

    Once we stop sending Scottish money to Westminster, to fund weapons of mass destruction and illegal wars, and rampant colonialism, then Scotland controlling its own finances and oil revenues will prosper.

    It really is that simple.

  27. PickledOnionSupper says:

    Slowly but surely, the tide is turning…
    As BtP says, we do need to be aware of false dawns – but I don’t think this is one, unless there’s some bombshell that BT have lined up to counter the white paper, and we’re being softened up ahead of that. 
    O/T see independence day is going to be in March. Shame! I was hoping for May, when we might have a chance of some sun to celebrate in! Never mind, I’ll swallow my disappointment and still vote yes.

  28. redcliffe62 says:

    If Scottish people know they are subsidising England and it is not the other way around as the BBC and Mail tell them then they will have confidence. It really is that simple. That poll saying people will vote YES if they get 500 quid more a year is the one to really watch. Self interest trumps everything else.

  29. msean says:

    I won’t believe any papers will come out for yes until a trend to yes appears constant by their figures,even if the sales figures tell them their business going down the drain.

  30. Robert Louis says:


    Wow, an 8% gap between YES and NO. That means we only need a swing of anything over 4% to win. It would seem events are moving much as Scottish Skier has suggested they will.

    Funny how we are no longer hearing the unionist lie that ‘most Scots oppose independence’, now we know that only 45% support the union – which is not what any sane person would call a majority.

  31. Jingly Jangly says:

    Sunday Herald has always been most impartial of the MSM, whilst todays maybe the most pro Indy one yet, (I have not read it yet as we don’t get Sunday Papers till midday) they have been moving in our direction for a while.
    I guess they realise that if they are going to survive they need to get more in tune with their readership….

  32. scottish_skier says:

    Core support for the union.
    26% reckon they would be at least £500 worse off 
    29% think the state pension would fall in an independent Scotland
    28% (59% of No voters) are convinced it [Scotland] would be much worse off
    From Prof C’s blog.

  33. scottish_skier says:

    I don’t know what has happened in the last two weeks but there seems to be some sort of shift in the Scottish Media.
    If you live in Scotland, the above (the horrific consequences of a No detailed above / in the Herald) applies just as much to someone who voted No as it does to someone who voted Yes. Only if you are a Labour, Lib or Tory party councillor, MSP, MP etc will life continue to be sweet in the union.

  34. Training Day says:

    One instance of perspective amidst the torrent of MSM lies is welcome, but it’s only that.

    The BBC is the key. I spoke with an acquaintance last week who asked if I’d seen the report which showed Scotland couldn’t be an independent country. No context, no analysis, just a view clearly garnered from the BBC’s saturation coverage of the IFS report. When I pointed out that the IFS was funded by the UK Government via the ESRC, and that the BBC was one of the sponsors of the IFS, I was told that Salmond was anti-English anyway. Some people will never be prepared to admit they’ve been taken for fools, even though they may think it to themselves.

  35. gordoz says:

    Graeme Purves
    New Unionism – does not mean the ‘same together’ it means retribution is coming ! 

  36. crisiscult says:

    I know it may be unlikely to happen but if the anti independents change tack and say the rest of the UK will be seriously weakened and it’ll be really bad for them financially, would that tap into some deep rooted sense of Britishness and/or solidarity, and sway people to vote no?

  37. gordoz says:

    Rev – just popped something in your inbox for info

  38. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Could the trend of closing the gap between Yes and No be the reason for the frenetic headless chicken outpourings from No, and Darling’s hunted look?
    The game is up boys, you have been rumbled and you know it.

  39. JLT says:

    For the last couple of months, I have been building my own library. In one folder on my computer, it is simply known as ‘Independence’
    Within it, I have subfolders – Defence, Economy, BBC, Overseas, and ‘Idiotic’
    I take clippings from WoS, The Guardian, The Herald, and even the Scotsman. I rename them, and add in brackets at the end of the file name what it allays too ie End of Barnett Formula, Belief, Financial Warning, Defence numbers, etc. It means that a quick glance, you know what you are about to read from what is typed in brackets.
    Within each document, I highlight key facts, figures, warnings in BOLD RED. I make these things stand out. Catch the eye!
    So, today’s article in WoS, I have copied and pasted into a Word document. I have renamed that document ‘2013-11-24 – The Herald – Keep an open mind on the White Paper (BELIEF)’, and within it I have highlighted the key points such Carwyn Jones wanting to end the Barnett Formula, along with other key points.
    My intention is, that when we get into the heated battle of next year, and knowing, that some of my colleagues or family or friends will still want answers, I will copy everything from the ‘Independent’ folder onto a memory stick or a CD, and give it to them. There, laid out for them will be all the answers, and all of the warnings.
    I have no idea if anyone else is doing this, but you could say it’s like WoS broken down into mini format with all the key questions neatly packaged away into the necessary folders.
    This is how I intend to get one part of the message across to others. If they want answers, the here it is. Read it and learn, or you’ll only have yourself to blame. It doesn’t get any easier than that should you want the answers.

  40. Andrew Morton says:

    The Herald has always been the most even handed of the MSM, this is less significant than the fact that since the last round of redundancies at the Scotsman due to falling circulation, the number of outrageously pro BT stories has dropped. It seems that someone in management has finally said, “Look guys, we need to maximise our readership, so why alienate 40-50% of the potential market?”.
    My family bought the Scotsman every day for three generations, now I won’t even have it in the house. How stupid do you have to be to piss off such a loyal readership?

  41. msean says:

    Just seen Deputy First Minister on sky,kept getting interupted.Handled it quite well.Didn’t see crash darling get that treatment earlier,better together indeed.

  42. Les Wilson says:

    I watched a bit of Andrew Marr this morning and surprise surprise there was the Secretary of State for “Portsmouth ” Carmichael spouting on about the usual stuff unhindered really by Marr. The BBC are giving him unchallenged airtime as much as they can. Especially in an unchallenged basis which is once more incredible.

    One thing that did strike me though was when Marr asked him why he is in the job that he himself should be abolished, he smiled and said that he was given the job so he is now relishing it. So devoid of principle and no embarrassment whatsoever.

    I thought about what he said ” it was now his job so he will do it, and relish it !”

    I guess we have all heard this saying before, when the Allies freed the prison camps in Germany ! “It was my JOB!” enough said on how trustworthy Carmichael is for standing up for Scotland. Another one for the bin!  

  43. Ghengis D'Midgies says:

    “Today’s Panelbase poll of 1,006 Scottish voters puts support for independence at 38%, opposition at 47% while 15% don’t know. ”

  44. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ Training Day
    Not publically anyway, as they would lose face. privately they may well be starting to have doubts so, don’ t give on them and keep plugging away, always politely.
    Remember you are challenging their life’s orthodoxy and that is why Project Fear exists to ensure that their doubts allows themselves to remain within that orthodoxy despite the illogic of it.
    It took me years to make that transition. You are asking them to make that journey within 10 months. 
    Some will never make the transition but enough will.

  45. crisiscult says:

    By the way, I have been on BT facebook a few times and this article in the herald really helps to describe what’s going on there at the moment; a big push for the emotions (British nationalism). I’m a bit turned off by that on either side, but the article suggesting that based on what happened in Quebec, it could work for BT.

  46. HandandShrimp says:

    The poll is encouraging, the White Paper sounds comprehensive at 670 pages. The Bitter ones are already moaning that is too long…not long ago they were complaining that questions needed to be answered.
    Still bemused by how Paul Martin planned to read 670 pages and debate the document 5 minutes after its launch. He must be some sort of superman, hyper intelligent, amazing speed reader. That or a torn faced numpty…can’t quite decide.

  47. Bill McLean says:

    I’m not prepared to be fooled by the Sunday Herald just yet! It’s too easy to write what appears to be a pro Independence article now and again in the hope of maintaining/increasing readership. There are more forces at work here than the editors of the Sunday and daily Herald. Be cautious. The British are past masters at subterfuge, dishonesty and hypocrisy. They know there’s a lot at stake.

  48. crisiscult says:

    JLT – wish I had been doing that. Perhaps at some point in the future you could share that on dropbox or similar?

  49. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I’ve been going on about it for some time
    Buy the Sunday Herald. It’s on our side
    Get two and give one to a neighbour.
    In fact give me two thousand and Ill personally deliver one to every door in this area
    It deserves our support (and it’s very good read throughout).
    It has a completley different editorial line to the daily Herald and they shouldn’t be mixed up.

  50. Doug Daniel says:

    Wahay, Ivan McKee on the Sunday Politics, albeit briefly. 

  51. Macart says:

    A sound of distant thunder?
    Here we go. 🙂

  52. Ken500 says:

    It’s so exciting

    Wonder where it is being printed.

    There are reports the ‘S’ paper supports Labour because it prints their literature.

  53. Bill McLean says:

    Sorry Dave – I’d still advise caution about the Sunday Herald. I’d really like to be wrong but suspect when the hand has been dealt the SH will become like the rest of the MSM! Just an opinion! By the way did the Express ever sort out the problem of a few months ago?

  54. Edward says:

    Its my understanding that the White Paper will be available in ‘Kindle’ type format, is that correct?

  55. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    I remember Brian Taylor opining some good few years ago that the SNP wasn’t really a true political party and was in fact a one issue protest group.
    Times have changed and the three unionist parties have taken over that mantle from the the SNP. They have become a one issue protest group with no policies, no vision and no evidence of having any philosophies beyond blind obedience to mantra of the union is best.

    Politics is a funny old business and it seems that despite their parties’ collective years of experience have never learned from their past mistakes?

    incompetence or arrogance, but I smell we are entering the final days of a tired old Empire and the rebirth of a new Enlightenment in Scotland.

    Following A YES note next year, we must make sure that the fetid Empire’s Scottish hand maidens do not take over our future again and bugger it up. They are yesterday’s greasy fish supper wrapper and are so contaminated that cannot be recycled. It is the big bad fire for them.

  56. msean says:

    ffs challenge and interupt him like you do with others.

  57. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I hear a couple of rumbles today. Another attack coming up will be that the independence campaign is very left wing. This will be added to the scaremongering portfolio to frighten off the middle classes. We need a higher profile from Businees for Independence and similar interests.

  58. Edward says:

    I really would not be surprised if the UK Government don’t already have a copy of the White Paper courtesy of MI5/GCHQ and are pouring over it
    We will see some spoilers tomorrow

  59. Fab001 says:

    I caught about half the Nicola Surgeon interview on Sky News, she was constantly interrupted by Murnaghan who tried to give her as tough a time as possible but she dealt with it very well. Apparently Alistair Darling was on previously, would love to have seen that interview, it was probably the equivalent of verbal fellatio.

  60. Stevie says:

    Haven’t read the article but it must have been okayed by the BritNat gauleiter Magnus Gardham – is the red, white and blue apologist seeing the light?

  61. Edward says:

    Carmichael allowed to spout crap unhindered on Politics Sunday

  62. Bigheed says:

    I know you have been going on about this for some time Rev and it MUST be the central point of all arguments from here on in. A NO vote is enduring radical cuts until at least 2016 and then having the Barnett Formula scrapped to bring our Northern Region of London in line with all other regions.
    Seriously WTF!!!!!! If we cant get a 10% swing of NO voters to see this and the consequences to their family of this then we don’t deserve to be part of a generation that brought about our Independence again.
    On a lighter note, would like to congratulate the YES voter in Saltcoats who positioned their yes banner in a perfect place for train users. We should start a competition on who has the best strategic banner placement and the winner gets to live in an Independent Scotland even in the event of a NO vote.

  63. Craiging_619 says:

    JLT – great idea. I’ve been saving bookmarks on the phone all year and will hopefully get round to sorting them out into some sort of order in January. I get swept aside in face-to-face discussions with my multitude of Yes-sceptical friends, with stock responses like, “ach you can’t prove that” “two sides to every story” or the classic “HOW WILL WE SURVIVE WHEN THE OIL RUNS OUT?!?” Having a dossier of sources to disprove all the BT nonsense could be pivotal for convincing more folk next year.

  64. lumilumi says:

    @ PickledOnionSupper, 10.57
    re: propsed independence day, 24 March – don’t complain, the days will at least be longer than nights that time of the year 😀  Finland is stuck with 6 December: about 6 hrs between sunrise & sunset in southern Finland, typical weather horizontal sleet… But we’re glad to celebrate our independence anyway. (Mostly indoors, obviously.)
    I’m really looking forward to the White Paper, all 670 (!) pages of it. I’ll download it asap and begin reading and studying it. It’ll take me longer than 5 minutes, or a couple of days, though.
    The No Scotland mob have, of course, already dismissed it. The truth is, the WP cannot answer all the questions, one reason being that many things depend on negotiations with the rUK gov, and they refuse to “prenegotiate”. Every reasonable person understands this, but the No Scotland mob will try and make as much capital out of it as they possibly can. In effect, complaining that the WP doesn’t answer all the questions because we (UK gov) refuse to answer them. Huh? 😀
    Glad to see that the Sunday Herald are publishing something that could almost come straight from WoS: the true meaning of a No vote. I hope more and more people in Scotland sit up and take note.

  65. Edward says:

    Politics Sunday just showing a graphic explaining the story so far
    I hope someone is recording it!
    In the graphic of flags representing the ‘nations’ of the UK flying over Parliament in London, it had the Saltire for Scotland, The St Georges flag for England, The Dragon flag for Wales and the Irish tricolour for N. Ireland – sorry what! yes the Irish BBC Scotland Art dept just keep on cocking it up!

  66. CR says:

    Like JLT and Dave MacEwan Hill, I’ve been saving useful articles too, though for nowhere near as long as they have.  I’m thinking of setting up a link saving page, such as Scoop it or Delicious.  I’ll let you know if I do, but that would be a very handy way of sharing info. In the meantime Peter A Bell, who I have seen post here from time to time has done just that and saved some very interesting and postive articles, including a number of Wings articles here:
    Meanwhile, here’s another excellent article from the Herald today, this time about the task facing the No Campaign, from Ian Bell:
    ‘Still, we know this much: the leading voices in Better Together regard the polls as worthless. They see a battle ahead on ground that neither Labour nor its coalition partners would have chosen. The task for the independence campaign, in contrast, is plain enough: to preoccupy the schemes in cities, towns and villages with the promise inherent in two words, Yes Scotland.’
    Herald Link for those who use so that the Herald gets to count the hit to its pages:
 free link for anyone that wants it.:

  67. gordoz says:

    The Great Scot Sec Puddin’ was in spledid bumbling from on BBC. Does anyone understand what he is talking about ? 
    Interesting to  hear mother BBC telling us on Sunday Politics Scotland, when discussing the Tomb to be known as the SNP’s White Paper, for creation of a completely new nation state, that  the combined parties of NO campaign wont have enough time now to come up with finalised proposals for changes in case on no vote.

    Oh thats fair enough then lets move on ??

    In fairness thought the short cartoon segment ‘are we there yet’ featuring the ref process in kids cartoon format was pretty good.

  68. lumilumi says:

    @ Edward
    Maybe they were the same people who showed the South Korean flag when the North Korean women’s football team played in Hampden in the Olympics last year? 😀

  69. Bill McLean says:

    Dave McEwan Hill – Hamish McDonnell on Headlines ((BBC R Scotland) this morning laboured the “left wing” bit heavily – no mention of course of Business for Scotland! Either he doesn’t know or he is, what we should watch for even in the Sun Herald, at it! 

  70. Ken500 says:

    Sky News still misrepresenting the Polls

    60% 30% 10% DK

    Try and keep up Ms Sky

  71. Ivan McKee says:

    Business for Scotland presents on Tuesday 26th from 8pm with speakers Michelle Thomson, Ivan McKee and Eric McLean “The Economic case for Independence”
    Will be presenting the numbers to show how Scotland can more than afford to be Independent in easy to follow format.

    Watch Live Online…
    Share and Like…

  72. M4rkyboy says:

    Dont you understand?Northern Ireland is the residual ‘real’ Eire of old.
    Eire and its Monarchy were usurped.
    They want to do the same to Scotland and retain our Crown and flag.

  73. gordoz says:

    balgayboy –
    Yeah loved the view of the impartial caring Scot (remote mind you).
    Sorry Julie; toxic & tainted opinion soiled by the Proud scot ‘Brit’ drug methinks – back up here to say dont risk everything we have so much to lose!
    Waste of air time telling the worls we’re really Brits – od no value to YES side. Sure she has a great career lined up at BBC anyone have that other great scots lass  ‘Kuensburg’s’ No.?

  74. HandandShrimp says:

    Carmichael allowed to spout crap unhindered on Politics Sunday
    So was Moore, much good it did him. I think he was actually more articulate and comprehensible than the new bloke.

  75. Macsenex says:

    Every opportunity must be grasped to challenge the Unionists and economists to opine on the probable reaction of the money markets to the rUK economy on Independence both with and without a currency union

  76. sionnach says:

    Well said the Herald! Maybe – just maybe – this will set the ball rolling.

  77. msean says:

    Confuse the electorate with misinformation and deliberately misleading comments in order to get a no result.Can’t believe some broadcasters can still claim yes gave project fear its name,makes yes guys have to repeat endlessly that they were self named.They do this deliberately because they should know it by now.They either do it deliberately or they really are that ill informed and shouldn’t be on air.

  78. msean says:

    When uncertainty has been created and you are already poor,i think you will vote yes because you already have NOTHING to lose.simples.YES IN 2014.

  79. M4rkyboy says:

    Is there a video of the RIC conference online anywhere?

  80. Kipper says:

    Does anyone think the current trend or fashion for over the top faux “Britishness” will harm or influence the results? It can give a false or shallow and temporary “pride” in this identity. I’m sure many an internet dweller will know what I mean. You see it in the “pip pip what ho, good sir” styled language and the various media with top hats and curly moustaches and flags all over the place. It has even crept into the supermarket. I see all sorts of toys and gimmicks there plaster with the packaging to cash in on it. It’s like a second wave of the Olympics nonsense. Lots of nostalgic revelling in a very sanitised version of history too.

  81. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    It’s deliberate. It’s called lying

  82. Gus says:

    Would scrapping the Barnet formula not be a change in Devolution which would have to be approved/passed by the SP?

  83. muttley79 says:

    Carmichael allowed to say what he likes unchallenged on the Sunday Politics Show.  He said Scotland would not be able to use the pound if we leave the UK?  Gary Robertson never challenged this untrue assertion.  The pound is an internationally convertible currency.  Carmichael also said Barnett Formula would remain for the foreseeable future, then said it would remain until the economy was stablished.  Dear oh dear what utter drivel the Unionists are spouting. 

  84. lumilumi says:

    The BBC is plugging their Nordic documentary by Allan Little, “Our Friends in the North”, to be shown on BBC One Scotland at 22.35 on Monday, 25 Nov.
    Should be an interesting watch, but I noticed a few mistakes and errors in the plug piece, ranging from the unintentionally funny (“More than 1,000 years ago, Norwegian set sail in boats, like Vasa, to pillage and conquer…” – underneath a picture of the 1638 Swedish warship Vasa!) to the misleading, stating that Norway has a 40-year headstart on their oil fund – the oli fund was set up in 1990!

    The one that I take most issue with is the misrepresentation of the Finnish health care system. The BBC piece states that

    State healthcare is only available if you are employed and paying into the healthcare insurance fund or if you are a dependant of an employed person or if you belong to one of the vulnerable groups like the disabled.
    Public health care in Finland is available to everybody, regardless of employment. Public health care isn’t free. Seeing a GP is about 14 euro (£11-12) a pop – for the first three visits in a year. The rest are free, i.e. it’s capped at 42 euro a year. Specialist doctors are slightly more expensive but also capped, as are hospital fees. Vaccinations, various screening schemes (e.g. breast cancer) and the like are free. Prescription drugs aren’t free but the state pays 2/3 of the price (or all of it in a hospital).
    It’s not a perfect system but works reasonably well. It’s not means-tested but the poorest can apply to have their health centre fees paid by social welfare. You don’t have to pay the fees upfront but are given a bill which you can then take to the social welfare office.
    The BBC’s misunderstanding must’ve arisen from the fact that many (but not all) employers (private and public sector) organise “workplace health care”, some of it carried out by public health centres, some by private surgeries. These schemes are free for the employee.

  85. Papadocx says:

    BT is becoming more like the mad hatters tea party! They really are, They are nuts.

  86. lumilumi says:

    Aaaarg!!! Papadocx got there before I could edit all that mess off my post above!
    Sorry about the mess, copying and pasting from the BBC website is always a problem. (Is it intentional? 🙂 )

  87. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    Let’s put the latest poll into perspective. The BT campaign has (assisted by practically all of the MSM)  an Independent Scotland’s economy in a pretty dire condition. Membership of the EU in serious doubt. May be forced to use the Euro. Will not be able to use sterling.   Membership of NATO in doubt.  Border controls. Will be unable to properly defend ourselves. Reliant on oil, that is running out. etc etc.

    The YES campaign hasn’t properly started yet. Quite right too. The White Paper is only the beginning.

    Considering everything BT are only 9 points ahead!!!!  After a YES vote the word desperation may be redefined as The Better Together campaign for Scottish Independence.

  88. Papadocx says:

    According to Alistair Carmichael on Sunday politics when asked “when are we going to hear the positive case for the union” by Garry Robertson. 

    We got a chuckle from the numpty and told “We’ve been doing that for months”! Totally delusional or totally evil!  A NUTCASE.

    He’s one of the top men too. FFS.

  89. Patrick Roden says:

    Richard Howit, Labour MP:

    This year I contributed to a study of the far-right published by Counterpoint. We showed there is a single common strand in politics: of intolerance, anti-immigration, and for simple solutions to complex problems.
    It is an anti-politics, always knowing what it’s against but never what it’s for. ”

    Oh Dear,
    I don’t think Richard has been paying much attention to the behaviour of his party in Scotland.
    Scottish Labour – ” Always knowing what it’s against but never what it’s for”

  90. Albert Herring says:

    Somebody won a Kindle at the St Andrew’s dinner raffle on Friday night. Nicola said they could download the WP on Tuesday at (I think) 10.00am.

  91. JLT says:

    ronald alexander mcdonald says:     
    Considering everything BT are only 9 points ahead!!!!  After a YES vote the word desperation may be redefined as The Better Together campaign for Scottish Independence.
    Exactly Ronald. They are only 9 points ahead! It is nothing!
    If we were to believe what the media have been telling us for the last two years, then our points have increased substantially from a poor 23% to a modest 38%. On the other hand, BT must be bricking it …after all they were telling us that 75% of Scots backed the Union. That is now down to 47%.

    The BT campaign is failing. The ‘Fear Factor’ has not worked. The lies rather than being hammered home, are now being questioned. Sure, ‘Yes’ have still to convince many, but the negativity of BT is becoming more apparent. People are aware …and they are not happy.
    As soon as the White Paper appears, many Scots will want answers …and not only to Independence. We need answers from BT. They either start talking sensibly, or suffer further humiliation in the polls.

    Simple questions such as what new powers are we to get? Will we know what they are before the vote? Will these new powers be set in stone? Is the Barnett Formula to be torn up? What will this mean to Scotland? What are the future austerity measures for the UK over the next 5 to 10 years? What new powers will be given to Wales and NI?

    These are just some of the questions that I would like answers to from the BT mob. If they are not forthcoming, then like every other Scot, I will begin to feel very alarmed.

    As Stuart has said enough times on his site, Voting ‘No’ doesn’t mean keeping the status quo …it means excruciating cuts that will dig deep into the bone of every part of our society, and that for many, it will feel like amputation. It’s going to get worse. Much worse.

    If we hammer that home, along with a positive alternative future, then many people will continue to edge sideways towards ‘Yes’.

  92. I believe that the Labour party is so pro union is because the SNP  are for independence and for Scotland,they oppose all of the SNP policies no matter how good they are.The real reason they ask all these questions is not for the sake of Scotland,but for the sake of Westminster this “debate” or slag off is all about Westminster and how they shall lose “prestige” and then realise they are only a nation like any other,not a super power or one with global influence,the mindset of the Empire is so pathetic.The Empire is finished and has been for over 70 years and no amount of self-delusion will make it anything else.with the end of the empire its time for the component countries to go their separate ways and let each country’s star flourish. 

  93. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘The Empire is finished and has been for over 70 years and no amount of self-delusion will make it anything else.’
    Love it. That’s it right there.
    Our independence day will be tribute to our ain folk – mainly uneducated boys – who were sent away to die, or left traumatised, in all of the wars ”Britain’ has been involved in for the past three centuries. 
    It is beyond argument that Scots played a willing part in the Empire – Burns very nearly became involved in the slave-trade – so it is sweet, and right, that we should be the people responsible for finally switching off the life-support system that has sustained these parasitic fuckers for so long.
    The ‘deal’ has become clear – they made their money. Fair do’s. Some of ‘us’ did, and fair do’s to the smart Scots (more fool the rest of us, eh). But we now see the nature of the relationship, and we want out.
    They will not stop us doing this.
    No way.

  94. dru says:

    Take responsibly for yourself, build a better country, Scots have contributed to the growth of  the USA, Canada,  Australia, New Zealand, Time to build your own country! vote Yes!

  95. john king says:

    Bugger (the Panda) says
    “Beware false dawns as they can be and have been used to undermine the hope of people.”

     I agree Bugger we’ve been here before, just when you think the msm are starting to see the light,
    out comes another string of anti independence articles.

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