Hitler elected again
Posted on
November 28, 2016 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Paul Nuttall (pictured below playing “Eddie Hitler” in the BBC sitcom “Bottom”) has just been elected by a landslide as the new leader of UKIP.
We’ve never felt more British, frankly.
You Yes Yet, readers?
In response to JK Rowling’s post, I guess we’ve given it one last go now, time to try something new
And he cannae even spell ‘nutter’.
Hrrrrmph…..!!
I must say. He has got it spot on about the Scottish MP’S being removed from the House of Commons. Perhaps I have latent UKIP tendencies.
I think I will try hard to fulfil his wishes in that respect.
Someone really should get JK to review her statement with the benefit of hindsight. Not for the sake of ‘I told you so’. Simply to enquire how that spouse really feels now.
i’ve always been YES to Independence 🙂
Hadn’t realised we’d got DevoMax.
I suppose you could argue that we ARE in the best position ever to dictate the terms of our relationship with the rest of the UK. I doubt it’s how JK meant it, however.
Still, it’s about time UKIP was led by a skinhead. Might as well stop pretending they’re anything other than a bunch of racist idiots.
Are we playing ‘What’s the difference between Paul Nuttall and JakeyRollin?’
My guess.
Paul Nuttall hasn’t been flourbombed yet.
JK legged it quick enough from Portugal when her marriage broke down. Always easier to tell others to stay and hope for the best I suppose.
What is this we in Rowlings statement as far as I know she is English ? And like all Incomers she is only a guest here and should not be allowed, to vote on the future of my country
I wonder how many NO voters would have voted YES in the 2014 Independence Referendum had the been given a glimpse of the World to come….?
I hope they are given another opportunity to vote before the Right Wing become entrenched.
I can see the Tories in power for decades with UKIP as the opposition (((((shiver)))))
Well said, Diane Abbott, that Indy Ref#1 was about much more than kilts and narrow nationalism i.e. about making a fairer, inclusive and more progressive future for oursleves; a future that is infinitely different to where this xenophobic, Union Jackery buffoon will take the rest of the UK should they ever be daft enough to vote for him and his thuggish ilk.
You YES yet, JK?
Can someone put up a shortened version of Nuttall on QT?
I don’t know how, but it would be good to share it far and wide in Scotland.
Oh jeeeez, the laughs are coming thick-n-fast today.
First thing that came to mind was Harry Hill.
According to ‘Hope Not Hate’ Nuttall believes climate change is a “hair-brained theory”.
That’s a load of bald-bloke bollocks.
Nuttall’s clip is on the Daily Record.
Nuttall is a parody, surely?
His views disgust me.
It just keeps getting better and better together doesn’t it :/
At least with Eddie in charge the love bombing will only be a frying pan to the face or a thermonuclear device down the trousers.
Don’t be a twat Blair Paterson.
Just one more reason, as if we did not have enough, to GTF out
of this sick joke of a “Union”
After Indy2,we will make known all the crooked ways they skimmed everything they could from us. Lay it bare.
I wonder what the result will be when the Yoons of Yoonland realise just how much we did contribute to the treasury, one way or the other, and that is only one thing, there are plenty others.
Blair behave yourself and stop channelling Eddie Hitler.
@Doug Daniel.
I can assure you I am no racist, even if I do have a skinhead.
And loads of tattoos. 🙂
Can’t believe we’re only 2 UKIP leaders to christmas. 🙂
As far as I understand it UKIP enjoys not inconsiderable support in England. Hopefully Nuttall will soon open his big mouth and start shouting about how England needs to get the Scottish monkey off its back.
As we’re not short – apparently – of No voting schmucks here that could prove to be a game changer if the notion gains traction with the English plebs en masse.
London Calling. Help bring down the unionist propaganda machine.
link to indiegogo.com
Has Jakey got the hots for crop-headed, balding, AngloBrit neo-fascists?
How about a Jock baldie cropped, instead, with civic nationalist/ internationalist inclinations?
Goodness gracious, me.
Tomorrow belongs to them two?
Think not.
Physically, ethically, and constitutionally not.
En passant, do they both go privately hugger-mugger QT retro Moseley-style full-on fascist kit over pints, soft drinks, and fizzy cocktail drinkies?
Let the Daily Zeig Heil enlighten us for neo-Nazi once as they get goose-stepping gallous.
Enough of this fascist-imperialist vile nonsense.
Time to rip up the Union Treaty which has been violated from the get go.
Time imperative to abrogate it (which has bugger all to do with the red herring “UDI”).
If we do not, we are, as Scottish citizens, complicit in this neo-fascist renaissance.
Interesting spin in today’s Scotsman:-
They report on Fluffy’s verbal excreta on Sunday Politics without mention of his total humiliation – anybody who didn’t see it would get the impression that he had cast some pearls of wisdom.
They also had a report on The Great SNP MP’s Expenses Scandal and Labour’s attempt to exonerate themselves from the mud they threw at the MPs.
It’s supposed to have been an error on the part of IPSA – some ‘error’ – Aye Right
The really funny stuff is the comments on these 2 items from their resident band of cretins.
All good and working for independence. It is obvious now with such right wing views out in the open, and promises from those who cant deliver that there is only one way forward. That is self governance in full for Scotland.
Ukip are an openly racist party so the pronouncements of their leader are no surprise. The wonder is why anyone in Scotland votes for them. You really have to wonder what is wrong with some people.
msean
You could say they have had a Farrago of leaders.
Blair Paatterson.
So myself & family(4 yessers)are here under sufferance in your country.
What do you intend to do about no voting born & bred Scots?
Has Siobhan written an apology for the MP’s expenses crap yet?
🙂
The name says it all …….. N U T T A L L …….HE’s all nuts.
Is Jay Kay Scotland’s present day Daniel Defoe.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Hitler elected again Paul Nuttall (pictured below playing “Eddie Hitler” in the BBC sitcom […]
I’ve heard this nonsense before from xenophobes and racists who claim that they are only saying what most people are thinking.
Well the Nazis under Adolph Hitler also espoused views held by certain sections of German society which made racism and anti – semitism acceptable and look how that turned out.
I for one don’t want to see my country and its people going down this road and what all decent people must do is what the people in Germany didn’t do, and that is to oppose these racists at every opportunity.
What Elizabeth Stanley said.
Blair stop being a diddy. People who have made Scotland their permanent home get the vote here.
End of.
In response to JK Rowling’s post,
I have this amazing plan for your wealth JK, you could be the most important woman in the world, richer and more glamorous than even your imagination could conjure.
All you have to do is say no to your silly ambitions, and sign on the dotted line on this blank contract, you will be in an amazing position to dictate terms to me then, it’s going to be so wonderful, it really going to be great, the best ever just you wait!
Just Sign the contract JK, I will do the boring words later.
You will be just like the wife that wanted to leave then decided to stay, only to discover you weren’t really loved anyway, and a union existed that you weren’t aware of, and you had been cuckolded so many times, then found you haven’t a penny to your name, your equal partner, pooled and shared your wealth round the town with every harlot that sat up straight, wore a decent suit and sung God Save The Queen.
Gus 1.44
Interesting spin in ” Courier ” as well.
Anas Sarwar saying unfilled nursing posts have rocketed.
In Fife in 2011 31 posts, in 2014 130, today 88. So 130 to 88 seems to me to be a downward rocketing.
Shona Robinson says there are 2500 extra nursing and midwives since 2011, but none of that is in the headline, only SNPBAAAAD.
@AuldGranny, 1.09pm
I don’t read the Daily Record, but thanks.
To be fair, not many in that Question Time audience were applauding. For me, the worst remark was by Tim Farron, when he said to Nuttall “you’re talking about the Scots the way the Scottish National Party talk about the English”. What a bellend.
Blair Patterson. You, sir, are a twat. That is all.
Congratulations to UKIP’s new leader. Anyone know who next week’s leader will be?
The Great Britain UK of England
Brainwashing champions of the world have always managed to either bully or convince others their opinions and lives are worthless and useless without the benign domination of the Great White Mother England, and in doing so created the arrogance in their own population which is despised around the world today….. otherwise they’d still have an Empire and all the countries who have kicked them out to gain their Independence from them would want to return would they not
But you can’t tell them that, the wee souls get offended, as does half of my own family in Birmingham who tell me they worry about me becoming a Nazi like that Sturgeon woman (who tells them this shit? their own government and media)
Until we become Independent they will continue to hold these beliefs, but if we bottle it again Scotland is done for….and we’ll deserve it for being as stupid and ill informed as they are
@Blair Patterson
My Mum was English Blair can I get half a vote
At least we can depend on him to provide classic quotes on what the English really think of Scotland ands the Scots
winging subsidy junkies
Let every NO voter see the complete contempt in which they are held
If they see and hear the contempt a few might change their position
But can we count of the BBC broadcasting it??
@ Flower of Scotland – there is a Youtube link on the clip so you can watch it on Youtube, or, post the Youtube link to friends:
link to youtube.com
Disgraceful ignorance we’ve had to endure from those twats on that panel. Nuttal is yer bone fide fascist, once again and now even more so he will be given a higher profile than his sick views merit by the BBC for his obnoxious and ignorant outpourings…the media in this UK have a lot to answer for in promoting UKIP’s true right wing agenda.
We need to encourage those down south to really push to leave the United Kingdom, to which we shall no doubt give them our blessing.
The Desolation of Smug
That gigantic, ferocious beast known as English Nationalism has been wakened, and guess what folks? It ain’t going back to sleep. No matter how softly and sweetly the Labour Party sings. The chance to soothe the dragon has long past.
Bunker down, folks. Helmets on. Close the hatches. This is about to get really nasty.
one thing that struck me about the QT clip was Abbott and Farron both saying they had been to Scotland to campaign in the 2014 referendum.
Why?? WTF has it got to do with them? It should be a debate within Scotland. TBH I never thought much of it at the time but looking back there was interference in a Scottish decision on a massive scale. Another example was that Marie Rimmer, WTF was she doing here?
Is there any way of stopping this from happening next time? Let Dugdale and Davidson and that other one argue the case for the Union on their own.
Sorry if I shock some folks here but I find myself almost agreeing with the David Maddox headline. The reason for my agreement is simple. If they do do as the headline suggests then in my book that means one thing … INDEPENDENCE! 😀
The Tories are good, UKIP are amazing …. at epitomising exactly what Scotland doesn’t want!
Their contributions to the Indy cause can never be understated.
It would help enormously if they would just come out and say they want Scotland to leave the Union, if anyone does, it will be the Nuttall character. He has come damned close already!
Paul Nuttall’s UKIP putting the ‘Grate’ back into Britain .
WARNING! May contain nutts!
That was the very last few seconds of BBC TV that was watched in our house.
Shortly after “tyche, tyche, tyche, tyche, tyche, tyche, tyche” our TV was quietly switched off and the BBC were informed via their web page that we would no longer be contributing to funding propaganda against Scotland.
Almost 2 years later it has been one of the best decisions we ever made.
Thank you Paul, now jog on ya dobber.
It’s now about ten past three. Has he resigned yet?
What struck me at the time, and it still rankles, was that an English Panel, chaired by an Englishman, with comments from an English audience did not feel awkward or embarrassed about discussing Scottish politics, with such hatred and twisted bitterness,with no Scots politician allowed the right of reply.
Nutall is manna from heaven. Let’s hope he comes Up Here to campaign during Indyref 2.
He truly is a bone-headed English Nat, of the fleg waving kind.
He’s ‘sick fed up’ of us , is he.
I personally can’t get enough of his xenophobic racist bile.
Independence is assured now.
Tim Farron is a lost soul now.
Rowling needs a pal to wean her off twitter.
Blair Paterson, you espoused these views at the end of btl comments on Wings article entitled ‘Cresting the rising tide’. I’m pasting your entire comment with ma reply to you underneath.
This is pertinent to your comment on this thread as it goes to the very heart of why we in Scotland do not support the blood and soil nationalism that both UKIP and you support. You will be repeatedly taken to task on these threads for your ‘little Scotlander’ views.
Either take on board the reality that we will fight to maintain an open and inclusive society where we do not and will not ever succumb to the rising tide of right wing propaganda where the demonising of sections within our society are used as scapegoats for the ‘ills’ created by successive Westminter govts. Or refrain/desist from espousing these views btl.
Our indyref2 will remain an inclusive referendum for ‘all’ those eligible to vote who reside in Scotland.
Blair Paterson says:
17 November, 2016 at 5:00 pm
All our problems will be solved by independence but the only fair chance of getting it is I have said before is to have ref 2 with no postal voting it isa means of fraud and only those who were born and live in Scotland have the right to vote ., no Incomers should be allowed a vote no matter how long they have lived here as Scotland is not their country they are only guests here only the native people of Scotland should have the right to determine the future of their country no one else what could be fairer than that? I have heard that some Incomers voted yes in ind.,1but the figuers at the Time showed 70to80 per cent of them voted no .,.a vote that they never should have had unless these safe guards are put in place we will never win independence
K1 says:
17 November, 2016 at 6:44 pm
That’s a recipe for disaster Blair. Someone who has lived in Scotland for 30 plus years may well have brought up their families here, so therefore their children according to your suggestion could vote (in indyref2) but the parents could not?
The SNP refer to the ‘people of Scotland’ for a very good reason,as it does not convey that it is only those ‘born’ in this country who alone are ‘Scottish’. It was an ‘inclusive’ referendum. Nicola Sturgeon strengthened that inclusiveness agenda at their recent conference.
Also we’d be playing right into the hands of those who accuse ‘us’ of blood and soil nationalism and it would ‘fit’ the very agenda that this article directly addresses, of those who would ‘tar’ our movement as ostensibly xenophobic. It is not. Precisely because we included ‘everyone’ who ‘lives’ in Scotland in our first indyref. We should not ‘lower’ ourselves or leave ourselves open to ‘post truth’ rhetoric by now ‘turning inwards’ and your suggestion of a ‘Scots born’ ‘only’ ref would do just that.
O/T warning.
Best wishes to the Paterson brothers on what must be a heartbreaking day for them , they have been sadly let down by our legal system, let’s hope this will be the only eviction of this type, and urgent steps are taken to remedy this obvious wrong , shame on everyone involved in this fiasco.
O/t
Disappointed to see lots of lefties coming out to support Castro.
The man was a brutal dictator who committed monstrous crimes and kept his subjects in abject poverty.
I visited Cuba in 2010 and was shocked by the level of poverty in a so- called socialist country.
The infrastructure, much of which was built by the Russians or Chinese was collapsing everywhere.
The motorways ( a bit of an overstatement) were full of potholes and made driving a hazardous business. Fortunately, there was very little traffic on them.
The only plus points were the musicality of a big percentage of the population and the much heralded health system which, although good for tourists and the elite, is sadly lacking for the general populace.
How such a tyrant can be lauded is unbelievable.
Point of interest. The Castro family were very big in the Masonic movement and quite a few Lodges and Masonic symbolism can be seen in and around Havana.
We seem to be saying this every week, “How did this nutter get elected to political office?” The answer is probably quite simple. Because they are promoted by the media.
Donald Trump – reality TV
Paul Nuttall – BBC sitcom, Question Time
Boris Johnson – BBC on-the-sofa shows.
It’s what Margaret Thatcher called “the oxygen of publicity” when she denied Sinn Fein MPs the opportunity to broadcast. Thery still limit opportunities for SNP to talk directly to the public. Which suggests the media know wxactly what they’re doing.
Oops – typos! Well I’m not getting paid to write it.
Aye Pete everyone’s goat an opinion…get o’er yersel’.
@Arbroath1320
I support it for a load of reasons.
1). The English have a democratic deficit. They have no Parliament to represent them, and just them, to fight up for their interests in the same way Sturgeon does for us, and the other First Ministers do for their countries.
2). An English Government would have its own budget and is own GERE. Undoubtedly those accounts on the same basis as ours, would show England was running a deficit, and receiving an “effective fiscal transfer”, from the rest of the UK.
3). The national accounts would therefore improve as a total matter of urgency, the Treasury would be kicked up the jacksie.
4). The UK Government (federal or effectively federal) would then have to work out some properly democratic way of voting considering the population of England is 85% of the UK. That’s impossible, totally.
This wouldn’t stop our drive for Independence, it would paralllel it and be Plan B!
I recommend total support for an English Parliament 🙂
O/T Cuba has spent 70 years under the most severe economic embargo imposed by the USA. It’s a miracle they have done so well, especially in education and health care.
I’m old enough to remember the day that Fidel Castro defeated the cruel dictator Batista and chased his gangster regime back to America. The casinos and brothels relocated to Miami where the gangsters still thrive.
No doubt casino operator Trump will welcome the chance to “bring democracy” to Cuba. Another development opportunity crying out to be exploited.
@Pete
OT. Have you never heard of the trade embargo against Cuba?
The debilitating effects of the Cold War-era trade embargo are hard to justify, critics say. With restrictions on the import of food, it has contributed to malnutrition – especially among women and children – and water quality has suffered with chemicals and purifying equipment banned.
Deadly consequences have resulted from the blocking of much-needed medicine and healthcare equipment, including antiretroviral HIV drugs and vaccines for infants.
One of the most comprehensive studies of the embargo’s effects was published by The American Association for World Health (AAWH) in 1997.
No hard data exists on how many Cubans have died because of the embargo, but Cuban officials do not mince words when asked about the death toll.
“It’s not only a blockade, it’s an act of genocide,” Dr Antonio Gonzalez Fernandez, director of the health ministry’s international relations division, told Al Jazeera.
link to aljazeera.com
@Elizabeth Stanley says: 28 November, 2016 at 1:50 pm
“So myself & family(4 yessers)are here under sufferance in your country.”
That’s right on the nail head, Elizabeth.
You’re a dab hand with that hammer.
The point of The SNP is that they do NOT represent just those who are born in Scotland. Nor do they represent those born in Scotland who now live elsewhere and do not bother taking part in Scottish elections.
The SNP represent ALL the people of Scotland, of any creed, colour or country of origin, who are mainly resident in Scotland and who take enough responsibility for being the people of Scotland as to register and vote in elections in Scotland.
Just to make that clear they are the NATIONAL party of Scotland. Not, “The Nationalist”, party of Scotland.
It is hypocritical for a Scot to decry the, “Blood & Soil”, nationalism becoming so evident among certain English political parties to then espouse the same blood and soil style of nationalism themselves.
Cuba endured an American embargo & compared with the hundreds of thousands of people blasted to buggery by the US & its allies, Castro was an angel.
Thank you to all who took the time to reply to my post all I can say is you have your views I have mine
@K1 3:18pm
Well said. But I do worry about postal-vote abuse.
@Pete 3:22pm
Never been to Cuba, and Castro was no angel, but I think I’m right in saying he was not responsible for human-rights abuses in Guantanamo Bay. They were committed, I believe, by American tyrants.
I’d love to get the stats on how many Scottish born people voted Ukip in recent elections..
Castor was a dictator. Then again perhaps he had to be. I cannot forget that he probably holds the world record for failed assassination attempts on his life. Over 600 at the last count. Probably organised by America through their contacts in Cuba.
Bound to make Castro a little intolerant to say the least.
Robert Peffers says:
28 November, 2016 at 3:39 pm
‘The SNP represent ALL the people of Scotland, of any creed, colour or country of origin, who are mainly resident in Scotland and who take enough responsibility for being the people of Scotland as to register and vote in elections in Scotland.’
Or more poetically, as inscribed at Bannockburn:
Here lies our land
Here lies our land: every airt
Beneath swift clouds, glad glints of sun,
Belonging to none but itself.
We are mere transients, who sing
Its westlin’ winds and fernie braes,
Northern lights and siller tides,
Small folk playing our part.
‘Come all ye’, the country says,
You win me, who take me most to heart.
Kathleen Jamie
When the BBC promoted Nigel Farage with numerous TV appearances I wondered if they were trolling us or if they deluded themselves into thinking he would be seen as an idiot and people wouldn’t support UKIP. If it was the second, they failed spectacularly, at least where the big vote is, in England.
Nuttal can also succeed with promotion by the newspapers. The agenda of the newspaper owners is fairly obvious but now they can’t control it, and commentators seem as if they live in an other country and believe they will not be affected.
Where my confusion comes is with those who make newspapers work and go out each day.
They are here, and will be affected in the same way as the rest of the public when right wing extremists get control.
Do they believe and accept what their newspaper prints do they, do they also believe all will happen elsewhere and not to them?
I can’t work out where Slab think all this is going and how they think they can stop it. They are blind to the obvious route of supporting Independence but they have no plan or strategy apart from hoping that somehow a Labour Government will be magically elected to Westminster and that alone will change all.
@ Elizabeth Stanley See it chist goes tae shows ye when yer danders up You can hit the High notes lol ,we’ll hiv you Winging it on some nightoot yit.
& Blair Patterson its not on I like many Scots have Family in England & English Scots for Yes friends here & have shared our Wings Stall , or did you miss those events.
Blair Paterson, a wee BritNat Agent Provocateur? Post a few stupid comments so the BritNats can point at comments and be outraged. Piss off back to your day job at the Scotsman
@Blair Paterson
============
…and yours are racist.
Works for me. I’m referring to it as the English Parliament from here on. The terms Britain, British and UK no longer exist.
If Nuttal does get more support in England it will widen the political and social differences between Scotland and England even further than they already are. He and his britnat ilk love to criticise Scotland yet seem to think such criticism will help Scotland and England to stay together in the so-called united kingdom. Very strange.
Fred
Embargo is only operated by theUS.
Cuba is in the WTO and trades with other countries.
In reality about 7% of its trade is with the US.
My point is that anyone with the slightest of right wing views gets pilloried but vicious left wing communist dictators get lauded. The reason is simply anti – Americanism.
No wonder lots of middle class aspirational types get hacked of with nationalism.
It’s definitely getting harder.
Personally, I find Paul Nuttall quite a reasonable and engaging fellow.
“Thank you to all who took the time to reply to my post all I can say is you have your views I have mine.”
That’s about all a racist could say to try and defend the indefensible. You certainly have a right to your views but everyone else has an equal right to explain to you why your views are just plain wrong. Now away and wash your mouth out with some carbolic.
Is the clue in the name?
I wonder if Nuttall will start an online petition to kick Scots MPs out of Westminster. I’d vote for that.
That will be another episode of the Farage show coming to a TV set near you soon then and all courtesy of the EBC. I wonder how long that nutter will last.
Nutter takes over the asylum.
Aye Dan, re postal votes…but that wisnae ma focus 😉
Aye Stu Mac, that’s entirely the point…Blair’s views are racist. It’s not a matter of ‘opinion’ to state that racism leads to violence, oppression et al…but whit dis Blair care aboot that…he’s happy wi his outlook, not a care in the world that he’s ‘part of the problem’.
It looks as if Diane Abbott understands what’s going on. I was suspicious of her motives when I once read that Jonathan Aitken was godfather to her son. But she certainly seems to “get it” as far as Scottish voters are concerned.
Strangely, although a former partner of Jeremy Corbyn, she was banned from appearing on QT recently by John McDonnell. Farcical maneuvering went on, if the Daily Mail is to be believed (that is a very big IF I agree).
link to archive.is
Hard right parties are an odd phenomenon.
Right parties like the Tories and LibDem, and Blairite Labs, attract greedy self centred people. Me first. We want to keep everything we have, thinking. Straight forward right, you could say.
Extreme rights, like UKIP and to an increasing extent the Tories, have underlying policies which would hit working class people most, and yet the paradox is, that is where much of their support comes from. I say underlying because their modus operandi is to have a beguiling veneer of nationalistic xenophobia and pretence of being anti establishment. However at their core is small state, low regulation, neo-con big business policies.
Take Brexit. It won because of a pitch to English nationalism and anti immigration. What it was really all about was freeing big business from EU regulations and workers right.
There are those who say the EU is a ‘business club’. Perhaps it is too business friendly. However compared to the US, which is what the hard right see as their idol, we have to accept that all things are relative!
left wing communist dictators get lauded. The reason is simply anti – Americanism.
Wrong again. It’s anti-fascism (or alt-rightism as we must now call it). There are alt-rightists in every society. The point is to prevent them from corrupting the political process.
Capella says:
Yes, I reckon she does. Heard her before on a similar vane and she does understand.
Who else at WM does? It’s honestly hard to tell. More will, but for their own reasons won’t let on. Most give the impression of barely knowing where Scotland is far less understanding what Scotland is and how Scots think.
Sadly, the electorate of England made their intentions all too clear, both in May 2015 and in June of this year. They see no solutions in Labour. They’ve abandoned the Libdems for very obvious reasons and societally they’ve lurched to the right. They’ve been spoon fed a diet of right wing metro-centric media for decades and frankly it scares the hell out of me simply observing the average online argument and seeing the Express, Telegraph or Mail’s sound bites quoted verbatim by some folk.
Their problem is that they see no problem with deciding the fates and futures of those nations who make up the UK.
Their politics is not our politics and this is quite clearly and provably the case at this point. It was time to part our political interests in 2014 in an amicable and timely manner. Now it is an imperative that we part our politics and system of government for both our best interests.
The Westminster and media narrative has become a runaway train, breaks off and without control. It has gotten away from those who created it and gave it purpose. The citizenry, England’s society in general, are angry, disenfranchised, mistrustful of each other, mistrustful of authority and various demographics of their own society. Government and the media have manipulated their emotions, their vote and their opinion to the point of simmering anger and beyond. I’d say to the point where the politicians run with rather than direct their creation for fear of being targeted by it.
An inevitable outcome of mass manipulation and utterly avoidable and unnecessary. These pricks did this to their own society. The result of greed, self interest and short-termist policy to suit the agenda du jour. When folk are this angry, it won’t be controlled and only barely directed. It generally has to burn itself out and there absolutely will be no good ending to that story. What we’ve seen in terms of callously directed policy generating hatred, bigotry, indifference to others in recent years and more visibly since the Brexit vote is merely the beginning IMV.
Conservative government and Brexit won’t bring the people of England what they want, more importantly what they need. Nor for that matter all the peoples of the UK. When the other shoe drops on the cost of Brexit both economically and constitutionally occurs, and we’ve seen a pretty good indicator in the Autumn statement, that whole simmering thing will come to a rapid boil.
I don’t think Scotland should have any part of that kind of politics or the culture it breeds. Absolutely I don’t believe we should have any part of its eventual destination.
Whit a way tae live yer life wi an arbitrarily defined label ‘righty’ ‘leftie’ designated the ‘significant’ attribute of yer argument against/for any position ye care tae take politically.
Closer tae the truth yer thick as shit in the neck o’ a bottle wi nae understanding of what you speak of. Ye’ll align yersel’ wi any arsehole that spouts ignorant pish that aligns wir yer ain broadstroke hatred of anything that differs and threatens yer tiny minded world view of ‘it’s aw aboot me me me.’ Of course you like Nuttal, Pete…must be like looking in the mirror, I’d imagine.
*we’re gettin’ there folks aw the racist, xenophobic, haters are clamourin’ tae be heard…emboldened by their new masters*
@Paul Nuttall
You’re an ignorant neo-fascits, English nationalist. Simple as that.
link to en.wikipedia.org
“Personally I find Paul Nuttall a reasonable and engaging fellow”
Whit ! Have a shower and wash your mooth wi soap ya dunce.
I have utter contempt for the BBC, who could resolve the matter easily, but I find it very tiresome that Scottish Nationalism is forever bracketed in beside blood and soil Nationalism of the far right, when the reality is so very, very, different. You almost want to use a different word than Nationalism, because the two are simply not cut from the same cloth.
It’s as if I was suddenly to be dropped by parachute and put in charge of Australian broadcasting, but having never been to Australia, and knowing nothing much more that they have Kangaroos and Koala bears, snakes and spiders that kill you, and herd sheep with helicopters. If I actually did get that roll, then the first thing I’d do is get of my arse, go and live there a few years and get my head around what makes the country tick. That way when I put forward an opinion on Australian affairs, I might not be dismissed by the Australians as an irrelevant buffoon talking about something I knew nothing about.
You could almost pass off the BBC’s attitude as indelicate corporate clumsiness, that is until you look at BBC Scotland every day of the week, and suddenly you are reminded it is indeed deliberate misrepresentation and thoroughly inexcusable.
Nevertheless, on the proverbial list of “what I wish the SNP would say on TV”, – this alternative definition of Nationalism is in my top 10. I feel sure there fair minded people in Scotland and England who would benefit from being better informed, and genuinely ignorant TV producers who might benefit from constructive rebuke.
Blair Paterson,
The way to win a referendum is not to keep knocking out people until you get the answer you want. That’s been tried before, and we don’t want to go there again. Do we? Do you?
The only way to win a referendum is to convince enough people that you’re right. Simples.
And in the case of autonomy for all the people of Scotland, we are right, and we will prevail.
(Please note, Farron, and don’t you dare to ignorantly or mendaciously equivalence us with thuggish neo-fascisti like Nuttall.)
It’s now five o’clock. Have there been any UKIP altercations yet and has Mr Nuttall been hospitalised?
Isn’t it ironic that those whose views are extremely anti ‘nationalism’ and anti ‘exceptionalism’ are ‘the’ most vocal proponents of their own ‘nationalism’ and ‘exceptionalism’?
Do they just ‘not’ hear/see themselves?
I saw an article in the National, -Tusk told EU citizens ‘must not be traded’-. It is in a letter sent from Westminster, mainly Tory MPs
Of course it was one of the Brexit Ministers, I think D Davies, who said EU citizens would be pawns for trading, so this from Tory MPs is a risible tactic. Tactics alone have got Tories and Labour a long way in Westminster.
My hope is that the EU negotiators have disabused themselves of any notion that the Tories are not Kunts from the Utter Kuntdom.
I work with mostly English people, a nice bunch of people, however they do what I did ten years ago – collect (on the most part) their information from the BBC, Times, mail, telegraph (all online).
So yes sadly, very decent people foster the following beliefs..
The scots hate the English
The scots are subsidised by England and could never afford to go it alone
The UK is in debt due to lazy people and of course we subsidise immigrants
We are the good guys on the world stage
This sort of stuff is ingrained in people’s minds and it isn’t little wonder things are moving in the wrong direction
Pete,
Your O/T verbal diarrhoea is getting worse. You have surely stopped taking your meds again. Please seek immediate help, since I don’t think anyone here can assist, alas.
(We’re jist gathered here to discuss and promote Scottish autonomy, y’know.)
Ah should add in the former ‘Scotland context’ and latter ‘England context’.
@ScottieDog
The anti-Indy mob in London-based rags talk about Indy supporters going back to get their welfare cheques paid for by the English.
I just point out the latest unemployment statistics (BBC Sep):
UK 4.9%, Scotland 4.7%.
test
@CameronB Brodie
pass
@Pete
“Embargo is only operated by the US.”
Your don’t really have a clue do you Pete.
In January 1962, Cuba was suspended from the Organization of American States (OAS), and later the same year the OAS started to impose sanctions against Cuba of similar nature to the US sanctions.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Despite being a founding member of the Organization of American States (OAS), Cuba was effectively suspended from 21 January 1962 to 3 June 2009. Thus, for almost the entire time that the OAS has been operating, Cuba has been barred from sending representatives to the OAS and effectively had its membership suspended.
It was not until 3 June 2009 that foreign ministers of OAS member countries assembled for the OAS’s 39th General Assembly in San Pedro Sula, Honduras, passed a vote to lift Cuba’s suspension from the OAS.
@Douglas says: 28 November, 2016 at 3:59 pm:
“Works for me. I’m referring to it as the English Parliament from here on. The terms Britain, British and UK no longer exist.”
What does anyone with any intelligence whatsoever imagine that legislative assembly that sits in the Palace of Westminster actually is?
As there is no parliament of England Westminster legislates for England.
As there is no English Block Grant Westminster funds England directly with UK funds.
As Westminster devolves powers to three countries but directly runs England then Westminster is devolving English powers to three inferior devolved countries.
If the UK legislates for England with English Law;
Funds England as the UK with UK funds;
Ties Barnett Consequentials to the English Spending;
and calls English infrastructure, “National Infrastructure”, that we all must pay for then, like the quacking and waddling parliament most likely is a Duck Err! English Parliament.
To all intents and purposes the Westminster Parliament is the Parliament of England ruling over the entire UK.
Note that this is so well ingrained in the English people that they really do imagine, and believe, that upon the Kingdom of Scotland leaving the Kingdom of England and thus bringing to an end the Treaty between the two kingdoms known as The United Kingdom that only England and its two annexed countries will still be the United Kingdom even when what remains is but a single kingdom of England left.
Re. the resurgence of fascism. Behavior is shaped by emotion, that’s why I aim to make people smile, apart from Tory fan-boys, of course.
link to scholar.harvard.edu
yesindyref2 🙂
I’ve been trying to post a synopsis of the last 35 year of psychological research in to how behavior is shaped by emotion. It’s just not happening though.
Google – scholar.harvard.edu – jennifer lerner – “Emotion and Decision Making”
@yesindyref
“I just point out the latest unemployment statistics (BBC Sep):
UK 4.9%, Scotland 4.7%.”
Yeah but they just point out these extra jobs are created by that extra £1200 per head heading north…
ARGGGHHHHH!
You also have to be careful, because figures like that and the deficit constantly change.
I prefer to go back to basics. Folk like K***n H***e examine Scotland’s books like those of a firm forgetting to apply the same rules to U.K. Plc. If he did he would find that UK plc ran at a loss for the last 300 years (since the inception of the Bank of England). Some business!
All Scotland lacks is a central bank and currency then deficits and debts are largely irrelevant.
I’d like to make an earnest request to J K Rowling, as an influential advocate of no-votes in the 2014 indyref.
You’re obviously an intelligent person, and I believe you were convinced of the merit of your stance. I feel that some of the rather spiteful comments made during and after the referendum ( by both sides ) simply bolstered your resolve.
But take an unbiased, objective review of the narrative, and actions, of English MPs of all parties since then and revisit the issue of Scotland fighting its own way in the world, free from the constitutional hatred we hear and read on a daily basis.
Surely this isn’t what you voted to stay in the UK for?
@Cameron B Brodie,
Perhaps a more appropriate search would be how to” manipulate public opinion”
There are numerous good research papers into how big business and government can utilise media and every other form of influence into setting fashion ,and up to and including preparing the public to actively want to engage in war
link to caltonjock.com
Nobody said it better than Stewart Lee.
And a classic example of how Lee’s repetitive technique gradually hits the funny bone.
Poor Paul Nuttalls of the Ukips
link to youtube.com
@ScottieDog
The answer to that is to say something like “No, that’s not true anyway, what it does show is what a great job the SNP Government are doing for Scotland”.
Yes, it can only be used while our unemployment is less than theirs! But then there’ll be something else to use.
Facts generally are good without opinion in the London-based rags, as the ignorance about Scotland is deliberaely cultivated by the likes of Siobhan MacFadyen. I’ve noticed more sensible btl’ers on the likes of the Express responding favourably, leaving the nutters with egg on their faeces.
yesindyref2 6.10
leaving the nutters with egg on their faeces.
You must stop watching those cooking programs on the BBC!
Bob Mack @ 5:57pm
I appreciate I was using a sledge-hammer to crack a nut, but I determined to highlight what a fraud David Torrence is, the BBC favourite Scottish ‘expert’.
Och Mike…we’re still laughing here…the brilliant Stewart Lee nailing it as only he can…that clip should go viral on this day of his ascendancy tae ‘Heid o’ the UKIPS’!
Brilliant intelligently torn a new one!
“Scottish MPs should be booted out of the House of Commons to allow it to become an English parliament”
Yeah, bring it on Mr Nuttall! That will be a master matador stroke right to the heart of that archaic beast that is the treaty of Union.
Mind you, Mr Nuttall, once you are in the process of booting out Scottish MPs from Westminster, how about you kick start the cleansing in the other chamber, you know, where your lordships sit, and hoover up all the Scottish ones that are taking up space and money from the English taxpayers? Outrageously as it seems, I heard somewhere that there are actually more Scottish ‘lords’ than MPs, so there is a very good reason to start the hoovering and dusting in that chamber, don’t you think Sir?
I mean, it is high times the gravy train of lordships as a reward for the incompetence of the careerist Scottish Unionists representing the Scots stopped, isn’t it?
Austerity and the end of lordships as dangling carrots for Scottish unionists will teach the incompetent leaches of the branches a lesson or two about what pure Brexit patriotism really is about: you should do the dirty on the Scots altruistically because you seek the honour of being used as a boot scraper by the fatcats controlling Westminster, not because you are expecting a reward, that would be selfish!
@ScottyDog
Another recent example of the phenomena you described was when Andy Murray became world no 1. There was a short piece on the BBC news, I think it was at 10 but it may have been at 6. I thought I’d make a count just out of interest. Quelle surprise! There were four references to Britain or the UK all of which were positive or neutral. And only one reference to Scotland and that was negative i.e he had to get out of Scotland to further his career.If it was the only piece I wouldn’t comment but it’s typical, unsurprisingly most folks down south think England’s doing Scotland a big favour allowing them to stay in this union and the media just reinforces this.
My cousin was just visiting, says it is really terrible in NE england, just no jobs to be had, people really suffering, crime up etc. They may be going on strike, care sector, worried about losing their jobs. They do sadly still think that Scotland does better due to the subsidy junkie myth being fed day in day out. They watch the bbc.
Sad thing is, places like NE england will be plump pickings for the likes of UKIP.
That Nuttall guy is just utterly dangerous in the present chaos of brexit, austerity, and Scotland’s position regards the WM parliament.
However, even the no voters must see how his kind of talk is deeply worrying for their treasured UKnotsoOK, and doubly worrying for Scotland, because to demonise a country and that country’s population, (including those not born in Scotland) is indicative of a sinister attempt to divide and cause more hatred.
I don’t usually go down the rebuttal route since it can get fractious. However, I do take exception to the assertion by Blair Patterson that ‘incomers … should not be allowed, [sic] to vote’ since, many years ago, when the combine harvester was a novelty, there were trams in Glasgow and there were trains to all sorts of places no longer served, my parents moved (by train) to the land of the Doric and I had a really hard time understanding what was being said – though that was probably mutual. So, having grown up here, worked here all my life, brought up our children here, contributed something back to society here, you are suggesting I should not be allowed to vote here.
That, sir, is a racist viewpoint and, on wings, we don’t do racist, so…. Off.
@Arthetty 6:40pm
The answer is, as far as Scotland is concerned, the ending of the union with England. Only then will people in England, especially the NE of England, realize how they have been lied to by right-wingers and the britnat media. An independent Scotland, including Scots and non-Scots alike, can be an example of hope to the people of the NE of England.
Found it again. Hansard 28 Feb 2012 : Column 1171 House of Lords
link to publications.parliament.uk
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean [ex secretary of state for scotland and a conservative]:
“If Scotland were to leave the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom would cease to exist.
and
“I repeat that if Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, there will be no United Kingdom. I do not know what a kingdom represented by England, Ireland and Wales would be called.”
Well worth reading the rest of what he had to say. He was provoked into accuracy by other Lords.
HAW SLABBER, WHERE’S THE MISSING MILLIONS OF PUBLIC MONEY?
HAW BBC, WHERE’S THE SCANDAL TYPE BREAKING NEWS HEADLINES?
FILTHY STINKING CORRUPT BUNCH OF SHIT STACKERS.
C’MON INDY!
GRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
OT Reporting Scotland at 6.30pm tonight.
No report on the First Minister’s trip to Ireland because of ‘technical difficulties’ – but it will appear (maybe) on the 10.20 new broadcast. So not on the main bulletin but shunted into a siding.
@Artyhetty
It is grim in North-East England, and we do do far better than them in Scotland becase we’re devolved. Apparently just £5 per head was spent in public spending on them by the great UK Government 3 or 4 years ago no idea what the figure is now, and unemployment there at 6.1%, which has dropped by 1.2% since June but is still the worst in the UK.
link to ons.gov.uk
Oh, an interesting article, no idea if anyone has done this, about mcternan and a certain blogger
link to archive.is
Re. the north of England. The Celtic fringe is not the only part of the UK that has been internally colonised. Britain showed the world how to exploit human beings, e.g. John Stuart Mill worked for the East India Company and was an avid proponent of colonial governance of ‘less-developed’ people.
Domination and slavery is the way of British’s Anglican Establishment.
I’ve always been “Yes”, and always will be; till Scotland is a normal country again.
When he says: “I want to replace the Labour Party,” you can kinda see how that would work. I mean, if Hilary Benn had shaved his head, borrowed Nuttall’s goggles and pretended to be this UKIP nutter before making his “Let’s-bomb-Syria speech,” the thunderous clapping from the red and blue tories would have been no different.
yesindyref2
As if by magic. 🙂
link to wingsoverscotland.com
@David Torrence
Still believe your British nationalism is “organic”?
Who would have thunked it, that the world would be in this situation, with only 1 month before the celebration of the birth of the Biby jeezus.
Trump will be found out before he gets to sit on the “big chair” I am sure the USA establishment will deal with that, as for Nut-job, (I personally hoped/thought UKIP were dead in the water,)this clown will cause MASSIVE unrest in Racist-land, if May called an election in January this trumpet would become UK PM.
SCARY.
2017 press restart.
@Blair Patterson 12.49pm
English born wife and two daughters now living in Scotland.
That’s another three [maybees four] Yes voters you have offended by your seriously under thought post.
Gullane No 4
All ‘movements’ are tainted by extremes mate.
@Legerwood, I’m really fuming about this.
They could easily use RTE feed or even a bloody camera phone.
We know they’re at it and they will dismiss all and any complaints.
I think we should be asking for Sarah Smith’s resignation,isn’t she in charge
North Lanarkshire Update
link to action4equalityscotland.blogspot.co.uk
I assure you I am not racist I have 4grand, children who I love dearly and they are all a English I just want for the native people of Scotland to decide the future of their country no one else I mean no one will look after Scotland’s interests better than the Scots .,as for all the hate that has been heaped on me I refuse to stoop to that level
Liz @ 7.29 pm
I don’t think anyone is in charge in that organisation. They mentioned the trip several times – eg coming up on their late night programme -and then showed themselves up as complete numpties by not being able to show any report.
Eddie from Bottom? Well his full name was Edward Elizabeth Hitler whose Mother Adolf was an East End buxom barmaid. How apt.
Blair Patterson @12.49pm.
Is either a troll or a fool. Of course, there are many people who have moved from England and elsewhere to Scotland and who have contributed long and hard to our society whatever their politics and they are very much entitled to their vote.
There should, however, be some residency qualification to prove that the voter is likely to have a vested interest in the future of Scotland and is not passing through as a student or temporary resident.
In my view this should be 4 years which would ensure that the vast majority of these new residents are not just here to study and have shown a reasonable commitment to this country.
This may also control in part the apparent excessive number of postal votes experienced at the last referendum.
The NHS or Nationalist Health Service
Funny how nobody ever says that because they know it means something else as in Nation so who started making Nationalist out of Scotlands National Party
The “National” newspaper, nobody ever calls it the Nationalist, or indeed the National Crime Agency, that’s never called the Nationalist Crime Agency, or the National Debt, Nationalist Debt?
What about the biggie, National Service……well?
Nuttall say’s it all. Another pack of lies. Incompetent ignoramous. They can’t even get elected. The ex leader is a master criminal who have been illegally embezzling public money for years to fund a political Party. A criminal offence. Protected by his Tory mates. They cant’t even count of read a balance sheet. Ruining the world economy, so they can tax evade.
The Westminster ingnorant, incompetents warmongers killing, maiming and sanctioning vulnerable people, worldwide.
‘University history lecturer?’ There is something wrong with the English education system. QT just gets dumber and dumber. Making up that nonsense.
People in the North of England vote Tory. They get for whom they vote. The English working class vote Tory. They voted for Thatcher. This lot are even worse. They committed electoral fraud in 31 Constituencies. A criminal offence, They just get away with it. Their policies and budget are illegally inflicted on Scotland. The Tory/Unionists have illegally and secretly taken £Billions from Scotland for years and covered it up under the Official Secrets Act. They are still at it.
Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion.
It shews the need for and the foresight of the founders of the SNP that Blair Paterson can use the English definition of nationality, derived from notions of serfdom, as the basis of his judgement and no-one points out the dichotomy of his using English law for that particular complaint about affairs in Scotland.
The Anglicisation of Scotland has progressed enormously since 1934 and is still ongoing. We need independence to destroy the BBC and the habit of “looking to Westminster” or there wont be a Scotland left to save.
@Glamaig says: 28 November, 2016 at 3:51 pm:
” … more poetically, as inscribed at Bannockburn:
Afu braw, Gamaig,
For a nation that many among our near neighbours think to be intellectually beneath them we have always produced a wonderful collection of wonderfully gifted Makars.
That is besides Robert Burns the National Bard.
Among them, and I just don’t mean those spoken of in Scottish literary history for the poets of fifteenth and sixteenth century Scotland, that include in particular Robert Henryson, William Dunbar and Gavin Douglas, who wrote in Middle Scots in the time of, “The Northern Renaissance”.
I mean In a much more general sense of the term that is current today but also is applied to the Scots poets of the second Scots revival in the 18th century, including Allan Ramsay and Robert Fergusson.
I was pleased when, in around the year 2002, Scottish towns applied the term, “makar”, to publicly funded poets.
I believe Edinburgh was the first but Glasgow, Stirling and Dundee were close behind and then, in 2004 they, the Scottish Parliament, instigated the position of, “The Scots Makar”. Basically that was the appointment of an official Scottish, “poet laureate”. by the Scottish Parliament.
For a nation our close neighbours would have the World believe to be hardly removed from the early savages, we seem to have more than our fair share of poetry lovers and writers of verse.
Blair,I’ve seen no hate heaped on you here.
Would you prefer Scotland to be represented by the Scottish born Gordon Brown,Ruth Davidson,Jim Murphy or even Tony Blair etc.etc.
You would find an independent Scotland a long time coming. That of course is presuming you wish Scotland to be an independent country.
Your stance makes me doubt it & your stated method would ensure it never happens.
Blair Paterson
I’m not calling you a racist but your opinion stands in opposition to civic inclusion. I appreciate there were procedural and process problems with indyref1 but I’d suggest taking the vote away from of non-Scots born residents, is not the way forward.
Steve Bannon on excluding African Americans from voting:
“Maybe that’s not such a bad thing.”
woosie says:
28 November, 2016 at 5:56 pm
“I’d like to make an earnest request to J K Rowling, as an influential advocate of no-votes in the 2014 indyref….”
Funny woosie, I was thinking along similar lines, though very loosely. I actually wondered what the chances were for JK to write a Christmas article for Wings, just to try to clarify exactly where she does stand. Then again, given this can be a bit of a bear pit at times, perhaps that wouldn’t be such a good idea in the general interests of peace and harmony.
Strikes me however that a prominent Unionist who is prepared to air serious misgivings about Brexit shouldn’t be pilloried, but engaged with constructively. I suspect however it’s not so much JK that’s the problem, as the company she keeps, and association with the likes of Spanner and other Unionist spit-dribblers which muddies up the waters and “cools” aspirations for constructive dialogue.
I confess, I’m less interested in what JK has to say because she’s a famous and fabulously wealthy author, but I would like to see a dedicated and committed Unionist who is prepared to articulate their ideas to first articulate a positive case for the Union, and then reconcile that viewpoint with the xenophobia, bigotry, and insular thinking which is now synonymous with “Britishness” and threatens to plunge the U.K. into deeply troubling waters.
Truth be known, rather than reading an article which with all due respect to JK’s creative imagination, I think might be fairly predictable, I think I might rather be a “golden snitch” hiding like a fly on the wall, with a wry smile on my smug wee face, as I flitted about the room watching her trying to write it.
Proof once again @ Stoker says at 6:54 pm (not that it is needed) that BLiS only exist on the life support machine that is the media in Scotland but mainly the BBC.
Sarah Smith, Wark, Bird and all the others who still believe in BLiS’s historic entitlement to rule their fiefdoms at all levels of Scottish Public Service are all culpable in the propaganda war being waged against the Scottish Government.
WOS archive links for March 2012 now over on O/T.
Blair Paterson says: 7:37 pm
Blair please don’t play the victim card. Your views have been discussed on here simply because they ‘are’ racist. Moaning about others who disagree vehemently with those views is simply not an argument ‘for’ those views.
Scottish Independence would help the North of England. If Scotland gets better off, they do. They work in the Oil & Gas sector etc. When the Tories muck up the Oil & Gas sector. It affects the North of England and the rest of the UK as well. TheTories and their associates are determined to muck up the world economy. So they can tax evade and abuse public money.
Re;DanHuil@6.50
Agree with you there Dan. I usually drop in stuff about what ever happened to all that industry and the revenues from it, how much did places like the NE of england really benefit from all that toil, all that industrial past? If you ask if they know what their council is spending money on, do they have some cash in reserve etc they do not really think about it, but the cogs ate turning, My cousin would live here in preference if they didn’t have a very ill daughter to look after. It would be too much to upsticks.
I guess people know very little about the economy, and how their taxes are spent, and how their local council decides these things.
Thanks Indyref2@7pm
Yep, always worst hit, and cannon fodder for war mongers in WM. People are being exploited to the max, especially the young. Tuition fees etc, means far fewer have the option to study, cousin said they are leaving with upwards of 30k debt if they do go to Uni.
Blair, It’s not THAT kind of nationalism, you dafty.
‘Clean up the Lords’. Was it not Nuttall, or one of his lieutenants, who was demanding UKIP should have 24 more members in the Lords. Is there no end to their complicity?
Blair@7.37
I had many Scottish friends who voted no, would not budge even with all the facts in front of them about how Scotland could and should be very successful if independent.
Had many friends from england who all voted yes.
We just need a more stringent system, and no shenanigans like the vow, and the postal votes being opened. No second home owners domiciled in england to vote either, things like that.
As Smallaxe says, ‘peace always’.
yesindyref2 at 650pm,
What is interesting in that house of unelected ‘lords’ is the complete misunderstanding they have of Scotland. They repeatedly talk of the ‘union of the crowns’ of 1603.
There never was a union of the crowns in 1603, all that happened was that one person inherited both the Scottish and English crowns. This nonsense about ‘union of the crowns, is just that, nonsense. It is akin to an urban myth. It is true that James VI wanted to unite the crowns, but he could not do it.
The only good point was that Michael Forsyth confirmed that without Scotland the United Kingdom ceases to exist, since it is a union of the kingdom of Scotland and the kingdom of England.
In terms of the politics of hate, let’s actually NOT beat them at their own game.
Civilisation is (we hope) only going to be progressed by shared imagination (true understanding) of better systems.
Civilisation will NOT not be advanced by tweaking the concept of shared wealth or social decline.
@yesindyref
I just find continually trying to refute the pish in the papers a grinding slog. I prefer to talk about fundamentals.
For example, people talk about Scotland not being able to afford independence. I actually then highlight their ignorance about what money is. In the modern world money is simply an accounting entry. It isn’t based on anything tangible. Therefore to say a country cannot afford to be sovereign (in its own currency) is a bit like saying your computer has a finite amount of electrons.
I ask why the UK hasn’t defaulted since it has ran at a ‘loss’ for 100s of years and why also it’s not paying through the nose in high interest rates to those agencies it supposedly borrows from. Now the mainstream economists would say it’s down to its robust global reputation.
That is horseshit of course. People will always buy more uk bonds, simply because we have a central bank that can issue as much uk currency as it wants and can buy up all our debt if it so chooses.
So of course saying that an independent Scotland with its own currency canny afford to be independent is simply not logical.
Re. the corruption and embezzlement involving North Lanarkshire’s BLiS___d lead council. Same applies to the Scottish Parliament, the British Establishment sure lined their pockets on that little fiasco.
A Public Inquire is needed to examine how contracts were awarded for the construction of that poorly designed, functional failure. After independence though, as the British resists bringing “development” under the rule of law.
link to un.org
@Artyhetty
Had friends there and a couple of contracts, Peterlee and Felling. Went to a wedding in Sunderland and even a football match. Great laugh. I never really noticed anything about run-down, poverty, in those days my only interest was where’s the nearest / best pub / beer.
It was Dorice a poster in the Grun who drew my attention to it, I think he was from there originally. Blair Paterson would bar him a vote, and he was one of the best pro-indy posters, in spite of his Doc warning him never to post again because he was ill. I know his real name because he posted there rarely but upvoted me there. Saw his name recently on a posting, can’t remember where. SNP member a lot of years I think.
Incomers! If we had to go back 3 or 4 generations and have all ancestors PROVABLY Scotland-born there’d probably be less than the famous 100, and they’re all deid.
“because he posted there” Herald I meant.
Sorry, I don’t know what happened there.
link to un.org
N.B. The rule-of-law is not achievable without the respect of human rights.
There seems to be poor UK/Scottish coverage of Nicola’s visit to Ireland. Are we to asssume therefore it went well? 🙂
link to independent.ie
@Robert Louis
Yes, I thought that might raise a few eyebrows. I think the Union of crows as such happened in the Union of 1707/6 – if it did at all. I did like the term Forsyth used “a reverse takeover”, like what happened to the BOS and Halifax.
@CameronB Brodie
Yes, the emotion thing is an interesting one. Conflicts of emotion and intellect, head and heart. In theory we should be ruled by the head, it doesn’t really happen. Makes things unpredictable though!
@ScottieDog
Yes, I see your postings and leave well alone. It’s a good point to make, for people to think about. A fundamental of Independence really, but a tricky one to get the head around. It is, after all, a main point of having a currency – money supply.
I think some of us have set ourselves a task, we’re good at it or get good at it, and keep doing it, and that’s the right thing to do.
“Tea-break” indeed. Huh.
It seems that a Café has had to withdraw an Smoothie drink with the name Nutzy, as the Swastika next to the brand name offended some people.
Wait until UKIP’s Nutzy gets himself into full flight fascism mode,
link to msn.com
galamcennalath
“Students at Trinity College Dublin break out into applause & cheering in support of Scottish independence at @NicolaSturgeon event.”
The National Health Action party has presented evidence to the HoL recently- they believe that NHS England is being privatised-Mr Nuttall is bit behind with that particular issue.
They presented their evidence on a number concerns
‘Resource issues
•to ensure that the Lords evaluate the future of the NHS within an evidence based framework which includes a full publicly provided service as a substantive option
•to demonstrate that issues of sustainability, which we understand to be defined as providing a service within set financial constraints, are best addressed by public ownership and provision with full public funding
•to demonstrate that the costs of marketisation and competition within the NHS are a barrier to maintaining efficiency, integration and cost control within a public service’
link to nhap.org
This evidence refers to NHS England-SG is committed to keeping NHS Scotland in the public domain and has abolished the internal market;
‘Allyson Pollock, Professor of Public Health and Policy at Queen Mary University has done extensive work on the PFI agreements in the NHS
In 2009, Professor Pollock calculated that the original capital expenditure on PFI deals was £12.2bn. A Treasury bond issue at 2% over 30 years would have cost the public purse a total of £17.4 bn. But the PFI rates at the time were calculated at £41.4 bn for the availability charge and £29.1 bn for the service charge. These rates have since been uprated and the estimated combined payments will be nearer £80bn.
Compare this expenditure with the situation pre-1990 when hospitals paid no charge on their land, buildings and assets. Before any consideration is given to depriving patients – which the NHS exists to benefit – of treatments or levying additional charges this system must be put under scrutiny. Returning Trusts to public ownership and relieving them of this debt would make a substantial contribution to future affordability whilst refocusing the purpose of the NHS onto patient care for the long-term future
NHS Property Services Ltd
In December 2011 NHS Property Services Ltd (PropCo) was formed, in advance of the Health & Social Care Act 2012, which (at clause 300.8) allowed the creation of such a company wholly or partly owned by the Secretary of State for Health.
PropCo was formed with a single £1 share, which is currently held by the Secretary of State for Health, and listed at Companies House.
The precipitous creation and particular legal form of this new organisation caused concern at the House of Commons Health Committee. The National Audit Office investigated and uncovered failures of good practice (Memorandum for the House of Commons Health Committee, Investigation into NHS Property Services Ltd, March 2014). It noted that the government had failed to properly consider forms of public ownership and failed to provide detailed operating objectives. The NAO noted that one of the outlined advantages of setting up a company was the possibility of a future complete sale to the private sector.
In April 2013 when Strategic Health Authorities and Primary Care Trusts were abolished every piece of NHS land or property deemed ‘surplus’ (including any administration buildings or clinics with more than 50% administrative use) were transferred to PropCo.
From April this year the PropCo started charging market rents to its NHS tenants with immediate effect. It is formalising commercial leases for all its previously publicly owned property. GP surgeries and Community Hospitals owned by PropCo will have to find in the region of £60million a year from their diminishing incomes. Some will be bankrupted by these charges. This is another step in aligning the NHS with the commercial and market practices which are undermining its public service ethos.
Again there are heavy costs both in terms of the legal and management fees attached to these lease agreements and on the eventual loss of ownership of the properties from the public estate’
link to data.parliament.uk
On the subject of the social determinants of health when health provision is diminished,Sir Michael Marmot’s letter to the times re the EU, Immigration and NHS funding is worth a read-
link to instituteofhealthequity.org
and the publications on the UCI website are also very informative;
link to instituteofhealthequity.org
Individuals like the incoming UKIP leader should perhaps mull over these publications and increase his knowledge base-it is not helpful if the representatives of democracy are so ill-informed.
The current UK government is on a trajectory to widen health inequalities across several domains for all the residents of these islands-parents with young children are a particular target. It is nothing to do with EU -the responsibility lies squarely with 30 years of Thatcher’s failed internal economic model.
Premature death, higher rates of mental health issues, premature multimorbidity, increased rates of addiction problems, increased adverse childhood experiences that cast a long shadow into adulthood will be the norm for the majority with poverty and economic hardship the biggest stress factors.
A country that’s in the grip of extreme conservatism and supports a party that is determined to abolish the state and leave the precariat and the squeezed middle classes behind as wealth and power is concentrated in the hands of the few (many of whom are unelected and manipulating behinds the scenes) will perhaps have to re-think its voting attachment to a party and a political system that has damaged democracy so badly if the younger generation has any chance of experiencing a life well lived.
A seismic event is required to alter the illogical, immoral, socially unjust and economically damaging shift towards extreme conservatism. Scotland seeking its independence from WM is such an event and Scotland should definitely support Mr Nuttall’s request that Scotland’s MPs are booted out of WM as he clearly believes that Scotland is an ungrateful subsidy junkie. It’s the most acceptable solution for all.
I see another aide has been caught displaying uncovered notes after a government meeting. It related to the Brexit strategy being creaaed by Mr Davis and included such gems as
“Have our cake and eat it”.
The arrogance is truly astounding.
yesindyref2
“Makes things unpredictable though!”
Don’t blame me, I’m only the messenger. 🙂
Sorry, but the United Kingdom did not appear in 1707, but 1801.
(In 1603 James VI, King of Scots, sought to style himself James I of Britain, France & Ireland, but it never caught on because the Parliament of England objected).
1707 saw the Kingdom of Scotland and Kingdom of England merge to form the united Kingdom of Great Britain, (note lower-case in “united”), with a unified Parliament of Great Britain; the Parliament of England and Parliament of Scotland being adjourned.
1801 saw the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland merge to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, (note upper-case in “United”), with a unified Parliament of the United Kingdom; the Parliament of Ireland being adjourned.
1922 saw the creation of the Irish Free State, and should have brought about a change to the royal arms, flag and name of the remainder to that of the previous pre-1801 incarnation, with the addition of Northern Ireland: The Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. (The Union Flag should have reverted to the 1707 British/1606 English design and the Harp of Ireland removed from the royal arms).
The changes were not carried out on grounds of cost and, equally, pride. Northern Ireland, like Wales, never having been a Kingdom should by rights not have been represented in the royal arms or the state flag, but a cost/face saving fudge elevated NI, (and the Irish symbols of Harp and Saltire of Saint Patrick), to the status of those symbols representing the former kingdoms of Scotland and England, despite the fact that NI has as much right as Wales to be represented in the arms/flag, i.e. none.
Therefore the UK was formed in 1801 and ceased to exist in 1922, but British pride and penny-pinching ensured that the 1927 Royal and Parliamentary Titles Act was a pound of mince.
What history tells us is that Westminster and the Monarchy will do whatever they please, irrespective of the conventions of heraldry, logic, accuracy and common sense.
I see Nicola Sturgeon’s been invited to address the Seanad, (the Irish Senate), tomorrow. She was also greeted by the Foreign Minister with whom she gave a press conference for the Six One news. She’s being treated to the same level of respect as a foreign head of government, so I wonder how the press will manage to twist it into an SNP bad story? They won’t be able to pretend the Irish snubbed her anyway.
@yesindyref
“Yes, I see your postings and leave well alone. It’s a good point to make, for people to think about. A fundamental of Independence really, but a tricky one to get the head around. It is, after all, a main point of having a currency – money supply.”
And I think my challenge therefore is to get this across in a palatable fashIon.
Knowing what I know, I finding the nit picking over deficits hugely frustrating and I feel both sides fail to see the elephant in the room.
@David Torrence
OK, I’ll fess up. My Scottish ‘nationalism’ is shaped through my long-standing anti-fascist stance. I’m well-informed, highly-motivated, well-grounded and experienced in ways you can’t begin to imagine.
Your toast kid.
Legerwood says:
28 November, 2016 at 6:56 pm
OT Reporting Scotland at 6.30pm tonight.
No report on the First Minister’s trip to Ireland because of ‘technical difficulties’ – but it will appear (maybe) on the 10.20 new broadcast. So not on the main bulletin but shunted into a siding.
I am sure BBC will make amends by featuring it on “National” TV news and showing the enthusiastic reception Nicola got from the students at Trinity College…
Yep poor Nicola Sturgeon. Utterly snubbed and humiliated with a standing ovation and honours from Alex Massies’s alma mater.
“I wonder how the press will manage to twist it into an SNP bad story? They won’t be able to pretend the Irish snubbed her anyway.”
Unfortunately @ Joannie says at 9:38 pm they appear to be going down the propaganda by omission route.
Black out on reporting NS visit so those who get their news from BBC are kept in the dark.
Same as SNP expenses being reported wrongly and North Lanarkshire Councils £20 million fraud.
SNP good omitted, same as Unionist Party Bad omitted.
Keeping the masses ignorant.
Footage of Nicola speaking at Trinity College, Dublin here:
link to youtube.com
@Robert Louis says: 28 November, 2016 at 8:33 pm:
“What is interesting in that house of unelected ‘lords’ is the complete misunderstanding they have of Scotland. They repeatedly talk of the ‘union of the crowns’ of 1603.
There never was a union of the crowns in 1603, all that happened was that one person inherited both the Scottish and English crowns.
Well, Robert Louis, I think most here will be well aware that I’ve been hammering at that one for a very long time indeed. However, attempting to explain some of the finer points is rather difficult to do unless one has the luxury of being in a teaching environment where the story unfolds in a chronological and flowing manner.
I know I have got across the basics on the blog but some of the more arcane conclusions, although logical can be missed in the passing.
The reason that Jamie Saxt quite legally inherited the English Crown and yet was legally unable to form a United Kingdom is the thing never taught and never mentioned. It is thus very much misunderstood.
Timing is important, as are the laws in force tend to be overlooked by those trying to figure out what was going on. Yet the explanation is simple.
All sovereignty was believed, (and for many is still believed to be the will of God and thus depends upon the person’s belief in God. In the dim and distant past the general publics perception of Gods and their works was strong.
I believe those individuals who became Royals did so because they did not believe in gods ad were ruthless enough to exploit those who did. In this case the matter of legal sovereignty is the key and it was the Abbot of Arbroath who instigated the change in Scots law and was really a ploy to get The Bruce of the hook after the killing of The Red Comyn.
It meant, though, that Bruce had to, at least nominally, give up being sovereign and that put Scotland and England on different legal systems in 1603.
As James had no sovereignty over Scotland then James had no legal right to just annex the English Kingdom to the Scottish Crown. Which suited the English fine.
In the background we had the, still being fought, battle of Catholics and Protestants that would be one of the main factors in the Treaty of Union.
Today the whole mess hinges upon that difference in the sovereignty of the two Kingdoms as it really always has. And people wonder why we cannot get rid of sectarianism?
robertknight @ 9.30
Very interesting post Robert,and I agree Westminster will always do exactly what it wants and make up a “Tradition” to justify it.
But in this instance I agree with them .
Not about the successor state view obviously,but their name and their Flag…..and it will be theirs when we go.
Is a recognised brand (for want of a better word) and they should be able to keep it if they want to.
Personally I think they risk being ridiculed for it….but that’s their problem.
But still and all they shouldn’t be forced to give it up because of a choice we made.
Can’t see how it would affect us one way or the other.
I don’t think they have enough imagination to embrace a rebranding…..they will stick to the old symbolism like glue.
Should be fun to watch it play out anyway!
Joannie,
Impossible to twist, so the BBC seem to be handling it via a news blackout.
Just pretend it never happened.
When the irretrievably good news started coming through, some producer put fingers in both ears, shouted “nya nya nya nya nya” at the top of his voice, and flicked the “off” switch with his foot. (Like Beattie not reading The National.)
Funny how the Beeb never seem to have “technical difficulties” covering Allnut and the Kippers.
Jockanese Wind Talker
The BBC distorting the picture so as to shape minds? Away with you. 🙂
I thought maybe they’d try and make out that she was snubbed because the Taoiseach didn’t meet her. Just in case they do, our Taoiseach is out of the country at the moment, that’s the only reason he didn’t meet her.
Liz_g @ 9:54pm
Couldn’t agree more Liz, they’re welcome to the Butcher’s Apron and all it stands for. A white Saltire on an Azure (Pantone 300) field will do me, thanks.
Just makes me laugh when the Yoons at Westminster harp on about 1707 and their beloved Yookay. The clue is in the name of the place in which they sit…
1707 = Parliament of Great Britain
1801 = Parliament of the United Kingdom
When the Kingdom of Ireland ceased to exist in 1922 things should’ve reverted to the pre-1801 situation, but again for sake of cost/pride, bring out the fudge…
I confess I wouldn’t mind a passport with the appropriate version of arms however…
Joannie
Glad I didn’t put you off posting, it’s just you showed up with a bit of a weirdo. I just assumed you were together. Sorry. 🙂
@Tam Jardine
Thanks! 🙂
Sinky@9.49
Fundily enough the wife and I were just talking about this very subject whilst watching the FM on the STV teatime news on the STV player.
Totally shocked “Empires Shortbread” didn’t cover it, but as I do not pay the licence I can’t complain, but it just confirms everyone’s opinion, ” The BBC are SHI*E”
Was sneering Burd grimacing? I hope so.
UKIP/Nuttall admirer condemns Castro and socialism. That equation is entirely logical.
But I’m genuinely intrigued as to why such a fellow would actually go to the trouble of visiting Cuba.
Are you an international highway-maintenance inspector? A Masonic heritage enthusiast? A music talent scout?
@Cameron – no I can assure you I’m not with any weirdos. Unless you count my husband, but he doesn’t post here. 🙂
@robertknight says: 28 November, 2016 at 9:30 pm@
“Sorry, but the United Kingdom did not appear in 1707, but 1801.”
Utter claptrap, Robert, and it had nothing to do with England not liking it – although in truth they didn’t like it.
The truth is far more mundane. In 1320 The Declaration of Arbroath was accepted by the head of all Christendom and what the Pope said was supposed to be infallibly the word of God.
The declaration not only declared Scotland independent but declared that the crown was NOT sovereign because the people were and they chose the monarch as the, “Defender if the people’s sovereignty”. That is still the law of Scotland today.
The reason therefore that James could not style himself James I of a United Kingdom was that although he became King of England and was a sovereign monarch in the three country Kingdom of England he did not have the sovereignty of Scotland so could not give it to either the Kingdom of England nor to a United Kingdom.
The other thing that knocks your claim on the head is that the Kingdom of England had annexed the Princedom of Wales under the law of Divine Right of Kings in 1284 and annexed Ireland By the Crown of Ireland Act in 1542 by the same law. So Ireland was already part of the Kingdom of England when Ireland partitioned and then the south broke away leaving the North an English Province that it still is today.
When, exactly, and under what law, did Northern Ireland suddenly become a new kingdom when it was already a part of the Kingdom of England in 1542? (crown of Ireland Act).
All the Act Of 1800/1 did was change the title as to call the then union Great Britain was an error as Ireland was part of the Kingdom of England from 1542 and the Crown of Ireland act, but it was not part of the island of Great Britain = and it still isn’t.
And don’t even think of trying to claim that the crown of Ireland given to England in 1542 had gone to the Republic for republics don’t have crowns, The Crown of Ireland was given away to England who still legally have it.
So how could the addition of part of the Kingdom of England add another Kingdom to the Union between the only two kingdoms that existed in 1800/1?
As for the rest of your claptrap awa and read the Treaty and both acts of Union. I posted a link for them last night.
call me dave
Nae bother. Scotland Tonight on STV are reporting it in some depth as the top story. Are folk really telling me BBC have avoided this completely?
Hmm.
Reporting Scotland still having problems I think. A curious cobbled together report of old footage of Bill Clinton and patronising comments from John Bruton – the ex Taoiseach who was roundly ridiculed for his “embarrassingly effusive” welcome to Prince Charles.
Inclusive nationalism is the only kind of nationalism that doesn’t deserve to be kicked in the cojones from now until the end of time.
Broch Landers…ah just assumed he went tae look doon his nose at the poor folk…am sure he’ll be back tae enlighten us, wi a gloat tae match.
Someone asks as to why I would visit Cuba.
My god, where is your spirit of adventure, man?
If you want to see a hard communist country in action, then go and see it for yourself.
Surely that’s the obvious thing to do!
When I was at university I joined the Scotland / USSR friendship society which was a moronic thing to do but, hey, we’re all young once.
To see such a closed secretive society in operation opened my eyes to the hopelessness of communism which, apart from a few party apparatchiks, relegates the vast majority of the population to poverty.
Seeing is believing.
Go see for yourself and make up your mind.
Maybe you might want to stay.
Robert Peffers @ 10:38
Then try reading your own links Roberto…
Ah rest ma case.
The BBC are either duplicitous or incompetent….
or incompetently duplicitous 🙂
Pete
Open your eyes and look around. Now go away you silly person, or be prepared to be re-edumicated..
For UKIP, read UKFP, United Kingdom Facist Party. Not surprised that they have lurched further to the extreme right, because the Tories are stealing the ground they planted their successes on.
@Robertknight
You are of course deliberately conflating Acts of the United Kingdom Parliament and international treaties.
Monarchs and Kingdoms can reconfigure internal structures to their little hearts content, bit like changing the road signs which we apparently now have complete and absolute power over, big cheer,but it doesn’t alter the structure of the Internationally recognised Treaty of Union, the one and only treaty of 1707, between Scotland and England.
Thanks Tam that was magic she really is head and shoulders above any politician today apart from the still eating tunnocks teacakes 🙂
Nicola got the red carpet treatment from the Irish President O’Higgins too
BBC misreporting Scotland.
‘What irish visit?’ ‘Nicola who?’ ‘A standing ovation?’ ‘when did this happen?’ The BBC, bringing their very own version of ‘technical difficulties’ into your home.
Liars, every last one of them.
Hey BBC propagandists, the democratically elected First Minister of Scotland is addressing the Irish Senate in Ireland tomorrow. Are you going to pretend that isn’t happening too?
Croompenstein
I have watched a number of these speeches and Q&As and Nicola really enjoys herself. It is a shame when you have to rely on a link to youtube footage posted by the students, posted on a pro-indy site by some cybernat to access footage from Nicola’s timely and significant visit to Dublin. That is what the media are meant to be for. Also a shame they didn’t have a mike for the questions.
I thought David Clegg was pretty good and balanced on STV which is something I never thought I would say.
link to legislation.gov.uk
“That the United Kingdom of Great Britain be Represented by one and the same Parliament to be stiled the Parliament of Great Britain ”
Capital “U”.
Pete
Thanks for responding. Just to be clear: are you saying you were once a socialist, but now you are a conservative? And if so, was it the visit to Cuba that changed your mind? Or before that?
Right now, and for some time, Paul Nuttall will be very good news for Theresa May, for the obvious reason that he will take a lot of the attention away from her. And not just right now, but also from time to time – and don’t be surprised if it is co-ordinated.
But getting down to strategy, if I was a betting man, I’d be having a few quid on what could be Theresa’s typically treacherous British plan – to shaft the EU by making as many deals with anyone and everyone in the EU 27 who will take a sweetener from Westminster. Let’s face it, England will not leave the EU gracefully. In fact, I would expect it to be the exact opposite, with an attempt to do as much damage as possible to the 27/28.
England faces nothing but problems trading elsewhere in the world, as with Trumps USA, and India, and have already been sent home from India, disappointed. Why give up trading with the 500 million European market on the doorstep, if you don’t actually have to. Oh sure, it’ll be devious and complicated, and may involve an EU meltdown, but for a country already in economic and financial trouble, and facing the consequences of Brexit, undermining Europe while building business links with at least some of the 27, looks a good bet.
Tam Jardine @ 9.53 pm : Nicola speaking at Trinity College, Dublin
Thank you for that breath of fresh air, fair cheered me up = )
Just to make the point there, ” to be stiled the Parliament of Great Britain” might just as well be written ” to be stiled the Parliament that sits in that building known as the Palace of Westminster what sits on the Thames up from London Bridge we must build a bridge there as the next one upriver is the Kingston Bridge”, which is a bit long all the same, it’s what it represented that’s important, and what it represented was “the United Kingdom of Great Britain”.
Scotland will never become independent as long as the likes of Rowling can vote in an independence referendum.
Unless the next referendum restricts the vote to, for example, residents who have at least one grandparent born in Scotland, we are not going to be independent any time soon.
After independence, all residents must be treated as equal citizens, whatever their origin.
The UK, rightly in my view, prevented EU citizens living here from voting in the EU referendum.
If England ever votes for independence from Scotland, I am sure Scots living in England will not have the right to vote.
Ghillie @ 12.15 and Tam Jardine @ 9.53.
Nicola is a real stateswoman – fair cheered me up too.
Saw on FB earlier that oor Nicola seems to be the first woman to address the Irish Senate: Nelson Mandela and Bill Clinton being 2 of the 3 men: cannae mind who the 3rd man is.
Great for a wee country, so proud of her.
Just finished watching the FM and as usual folk love her everywhere she goes and as usual the Media does their best to make sure nobody ever sees that and the high esteem in which she’s held
On a personal note: She’s a Leopard, and if she gets the chance they wont know what’s hit them
Robert Peffers says: 28 November, 2016 at 10:38 pm
“The truth is far more mundane. In 1320 The Declaration of Arbroath was accepted by the head of all Christendom and what the Pope said was supposed to be infallibly the word of God.”
Another excellent comment, Robert, but may I draw your attention to what, for you, is an unusually casual remark about infallibility which is not quite up to your usual high standards of accuracy.
In 1320, as at any other time spanning more than two millennia, the Pope has only ever been considered as speaking infallibly, when he speaks ,EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher …, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals..(link to ewtn.com Para 9.)
I suspect that even such a hallowed and precious document like The Declaration of Arbroath, not being a matter of ‘faith or morals’, does not qualify for the Divine nod. Fully accepted, yes. But the big ‘I’, no. Does that take anything away from The Declaration of Arbroath – of course not.
Rock says:29 November, 2016 at 12:26 am
“Unless the next referendum restricts the vote to, for example, residents who have at least one grandparent born in Scotland, we are not going to be independent any time soon.
After independence, all residents must be treated as equal citizens, whatever their origin.
The UK, rightly in my view, prevented EU citizens living here from voting in the EU referendum.”
I’m with you on this, Rock
The UK and Germany are but two of many countries with similar restrictions. But there is a great deal of variety around the world.
link to en.wikipedia.org
I don’t see how it can be racist to restrict voting on issues affecting sovereignty, to citizens of that country.
The third person to address the Irish Senate was JFK, so Nicola is up with the greats: Mandela; not so much Clinton.
We should be so proud of her. But the BBC and the rest of the MSM won’t ever give her credit for it.
Rock & manandboy,
Not racist? There are people who have lived here for years, worked hard, paid their taxes honestly, raised their (Scottish) kids and never changed their nationality because we really were all in this (EU) together, and are very likely to be “yes” voters to boot. What do you know different?
But you would wipe that commitment away with some casual sweep of your exclusionist pen. In preference to some true-Scot kipper-voter who has cringed to UKOK for the whole of their lives?
Dammit, these people have earned their right to vote. It’s as much their future as yours or mine.
Anyway, what do you want this exclusion for, exactly? Because you are not sure enough of the case for indy to win over people by force of argument? Too wee, too faint-hearted. Your pessimism weighs you down far too much!
Well, I for one beg to disagree. I’m not faint-hearted. I abhor this blood-and-soil thing. It’s precisely what the Unionists falsely accuse us of.
Now I really am wondering where you are coming from…
Robert J Sutherland @ 1.20
Well said Sir,you live in a Country,you get a vote.
Aye well.. other countries might not do it that way,but we are no trying to be like other countries.
We are trying to do it differently.
If we want the best democracy we can get…then we need to be as democratic as we can.
So that has to mean everybody’s in.
We already know how Not to do Union’s
So we will be ok taking part in Europe,so we need to start by recognising each other a fellow citizens.
Funnily enough that’s probably going to mean anyone from mainland Europe isn’t going to vote to stay with the Westminster regime,who are clearly a threat to them.
Tam Jardine @ 9.53
Thank You for the link to the First Ministers speech.
A great hour’s viewing.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
Robert, my understanding of the issue is about country and sovereignty, but you do not speak about these even though they are central. It’s as if we were dealing with different subjects.
“Unless the next referendum restricts the vote to, for example, residents who have at least one grandparent born in Scotland”
Great idea, so people whose parents moved to Scotland 100 years ago aren’t going to be allowed to vote, nor is anyone else who moved here and lived here for say 50 years.
Should make the Referendum a lot cheaper to run, that’s an electorate of around 1 million people compared to 4.1 million. The rest of us can sit and watch.
yeah, right. “inclusive” – NOT. Alistair Darling would be so pleased to see blood and soil nationalism at play.
IMHO, indyref1 was made invalid due to fundamental errors in process and procedure. Some can be eliminated relatively easily for indyref2, given the political will, others, such as the BBC, are perhaps less resolvable.
International observers, exit polls, heightened postal-vote oversight, an impartial Electoral Commission, and no HMG interference spring to mind.
The conduct of indyref1 did not meet the standards of international development law.
The “Right to Development” requires states to provide enabling environments that encourage self-determination.
link to un.org
@Rock & @manandboy
So let me get this straight. An English, Irish, Italian, Indian, Polish or any other nationality, couple move to Scotland in 1950 say, have kids, who have kids, who are all born in Scotland, brought up in Scotland, educated in Scotland, work in Scotland, pay taxes on behalf of Scotland, pay rates or council tax in Scotland, from 1950 onwards, and those kids and grandkids are NOT ALLOWED TO VOTE?
You’re as mad as a box of frogs.
yir2, where are you getting these ridiculous ideas from – not from anything I’ve written.
@Tam Jardine 9.53
Great Link Tam and a great reception for the First Minister.
That speech and the Q&A afterward pretty much defines why Nicola Sturgeon is the right choice for the post. Equal parts statesperson, legislator and leader. A contradiction in terms of being a political pragmatist who can also argue from the heart and hold onto deeply felt ideals.
In short, you lead for ALL of your population or you are fit to lead none. She can and will argue the case for independence. She can and will defend the right of Scots to choose. She will also act on those choices even if they are contrary to her own personal preference, because that is ‘the day job’. That is the responsibility and duty that goes with the title.
Can the same be said for the leaders of the Conservatives, Labour or Libdems? Does anyone believe they are fit to represent ALL of Scotland’s population and myriad views? Would they support Scotland’s ancient Laws and the rights of the people? Would they respect the people’s sovereignty or their will regardless of outcomes in the ballot? Would they even offer the people the chance in the first place?
If honestly considered and answered, those few questions should tell folk all they need to know about the character required for the job.
Scotland has been exceptionally fortunate in both Mr Salmond and Ms Sturgeon IMV. They do a job I certainly couldn’t and wouldn’t do, because I simply wouldn’t have the self control, the discipline required, to bury my own personal desires because of what duty would demand of me. I s’pose you have a lot of personal freedoms removed when you attain that kind of office.
Example: We can pop onto any indy site and let rip about pretty much anything and everything, giving pretty fair vent to our emotion, our beliefs and personal moral compass. We can say they should do this or do that and why the hell haven’t they done X, Y,or Z, because that’s what I’d have done. But then we don’t have to represent everyone. We don’t govern or legislate for everyone. When we speak, our words don’t have an immediate effect on the lives of a population, businesses, jobs or life chances. Ultimately we speak mainly for ourselves.
One set of shoes I couldn’t walk a mile in for a bet, the FM of Scotland.
And it has bugger all to do with the heels.
@manandboy
You agreed with Rock who did …
manandboy @ 03:00,
It all follows directly from what you were quoting and supporting from Rock, insofar as voting in a future referendum was concerned. I don’t understand how you can’t see that. It doesn’t help to “soften the blow” by saying “once we’ve made you free, we’ll graciously let you be one of us”.
The principle is a well-established one: “no taxation without representation”. Another English colony or two broke free a whiles back on that very issue.
As someone wisely said recently, “don’t use massa’s tools”.
We’re aiming to do things a tad differently, are we not?
@manandboy
Though you quoted all of Rock’s posting, I suspect you were only agreeing with the EU bit (and the after Ref citizen part). But it looked like you agreed with the bit about “at least one grandparent born in Scotland”.
So basically if Emma Morano’s grandparents had moved to Scotland in say 1820 as new-born babies with their parents, had met and had a child 40 years later who married a non-Scottish born with non-Scottish born parents she, born in 1899 and living all her life bar a couple of days in Scotland, at the age of 117 she wouldn’t get a vote in Rock’s Scottish Independence Referendum.
Good grief, she’s even older than most of the posters here!
I was born and grew up in Norn Iron in a unionist family, but have lived in Scotland for over 20 years, am (in part thanks to WoS) an enthusiastic supporter of independence and have converted 4 friends and family to the cause (and hope to increase that tally). Such a shame that I won’t get to vote in indy2……….
Rock says:
29 November, 2016 at 12:26 am
No that is the path to the dark side, to blood and soil nationalism. Not an inclusive civic nationalism.
You forget there are people who live here but not born here such as eu nationals. To disenfranchised sectors of our population is wholly wrong.
The jury’s out on if you are an agent provocateur or not Rock!
Listening to Nicola’s speech yesterday on youtube, normally I hear recordings on youtube no problem from my laptop.
Not so when Nicola is talking. Found the same with many SNP speeches or interviews.
Had to hold my laptop very close to my face to hear it at all.
No problem with other things I watch. Seems strange, as if the sound had been either recorded very low or is turned down.
Is it only me that is finding this problem? Or is there finger prints on it.
Watched the video at the Phil and can only say that we are blessed to have such a charismatic leader in Nicola – head and shoulders above anything else in the UK.
Has such a natural affinity with all age groups.
BBC Parliamentary Channel
Brexit Negotiation Objectives
Les Wilson
Think the sound was due to it being a student’s camera recording.
The STV clip shown on their news was very clear, but from a different angle. Be thankful we got what we did, I suppose!
The Greens cost Scotland the last Indy Ref. They could cost Scotland the next. Their policies are so unpopular. An unpopular pressure group. They turn more people off than they turn on.
The discussion over what was said by Rock and supported by Manandboy, they are both right that something needs done, however not the way that has been suggested.
For Indy2 we need better control over postal votes, where we are relatively sure fiddling was done in Indy1, and will, be done again in Indy2. We need to seek all ways to prevent this even when dark forces will currently be preparing their fiddles right now.
We need a way to prevent owners of holiday homes using their address to vote, others brighter than me should come up with an answer to it.
We need International observers, this is under UK prerogative so they are unlikely to grant that wish, however we need to find a way. Observers need to be totally untainted by Westminster connections of any kind. Otherwise, they too will be nobbled.
We saw video of votes being messed about with, this cannot happen again.
Postal votes went to England, then returned after, for what reason? Certainly does not seem a good idea and leaves manipulation of some sort a possibility. So they must stay here, under guard if needs be.
NO breaking of purdah rules can be allowed. Or charges should occur.
No busloads of english students and activists should be allowed to canvas in our streets, in order to thwart Scottish democracy.
That is unfair and insulting to be allowed.
The media, probably the most difficult of all, however, the media must have rules however that can be achieved. The SG should be able to sue on behalf of our people, should standards be breached, as they will be.
These are my initial thoughts on the issue, there will be more.
@manandboy says: 29 November, 2016 at 12:35 am:
Robert Peffers says: 28 November, 2016 at 10:38 pm
“In 1320, as at any other time spanning more than two millennia, the Pope has only ever been considered as speaking infallibly, when he speaks ,EX CATHEDRA,”
Well, manandboy, I did not consider it necessary. The direct line of God’s representation on Earth was, (probably still is), considered to be a direct line from God, to the Pontiff, then on to God’s sovereign appointees, (the holders of sovereignty as selected by their royal birth), and thus God’s direct authority over we common mortals. It doesn’t get any more Ex-cathedra than that.
Not until after 1688, and the Glorious Revolution, when the English parliament left the Royal person still sovereign but having to legally delegate their God given sovereignty to the Westminster Parliament and, as is obvious, 1603 was some time before that move in England from Divine Right to Constitutional Monarchy.
Which, in any case did not apply to Scotland because the events of 1603 could not legally apply as both kingdoms remained legally independent, and in fact was the reason why the Treaty of Union was forced upon Scotland in 1706/7.
If that were not the case, and there had actually been a Union of the Crowns in 1603, they would not have required another Treaty of Union because they would already have been united by Jamie Saxt in 1603.
This weeks distraction. Secret Papers on Brexit negotiations revealed in Downing St.
How many times have secret papers been revealed in Downing St , left in Taxi’s ,on Trains. We can depend on the Compliant Corporate Media to run this nonsense for the rest of this week.
Fool me once shame on You , fool me twice shame on Me
( an ma face isnae red ) wie shame.
It’s funny, I’ve always thought that Gerry Hassan was a hopeless fud, and he’s not yet proved me wrong. #SpinelessMouthpiece
Did anybody see the Talking Heid’s programme AGENDA last night . Tim Farron stated that 25yrs ago 6 European Countries had Nuclear Weapons all pointing to here ( britain ) ?????? for our defence commenters.
@ronnie anderson
Oh hell! No another ‘careless’ act by some CS gopher. 😀 LOL
Surprised anyone trusts those bods wi’ the time o’ day.
There’s only one thing everyone should have their attention firmly focused on right now and that is the Supreme Court.
You’ll be looking for the next number in this progression then
13 – 11 – 8 – 5 – ?
Shortbread radio tells us BEA is not to be allowed as the only ship builder for UK Navy ships!
Are we surprised?
A three year residential qualification would do it. It might not be possible to organise? In a relative short time. Check on Council tax qualifications? Might exclude some voters. Voters who have been registered for over three years? Migrants – EU citizens not on GE register because they do not have voting rights, but would have a right to vote in IndyRef2. They can vote in council elections?
Ronnie Anderson the biggest squirrel of the week has been the Football Coach kiddy fiddling that came out the day after the autumn statement when the news should have been full of people’s living standards were worse since the 1920’s. Not taking anything away from the gravity of the offences but was it a co-incidence that these revelations came out that day? BBC shortbread had it lead item on all their news for a couple of days and it’s taken them several days to find a Scottish angle.
I see our resident manny that lives under Big Stane is winding everybody up as usual.
WEE TIP dont have conversations with Big Stanes unless your ah Geologist .
Wonderful! The greatest ever broadcaster ever ever in the world – the BBC, headquartered in the greatest ever city in the world in the greatest, most democratic, most everything country in the world manages to deny us the words of the best politician by far in these islands with their limp excuses. Remember in the 70s or was it the 80s when the voices of Irish terrorists were not allowed to be heard! Are our Scottish politicians to be equated with terrorists? Are they showing their love for us? Are we equals in the the best ever ever union in the world? Are we better together? What a shower of childish pratts!
A start, at least, would be to restrict votes in any election in Scotland to those who have a Scottish tax code. Not necessarily paying in but willing to do so. Pensioners are included in that I think. Would certainly weed out holiday home owners who barely contribute to the community.
A second plank would be to not allow postal votes at all so at least exit polls might give a cross check to the validity of the results.
“It doesn’t get any more Ex-cathedra than that”
Robert, you are placing infallibility beside representation almost as if the first validates the second. The truth is that infallibility only operates in matters of faith and morals – the link I gave makes that clear – and plays no part in conferring sovereignty, which as you say is a matter of birthright usually.
Papal authority is not the same as Papal infallibility, though I appreciate that some may confuse the two and thereby reach an erroneous conclusion.
Off Topic
A preview screening of the film London Calling will be taking place in Airdrie this Thursday (1st December).
All welcome. Details at the link, and if you fancy attending can you please note it on the Airdrionians For Independence Facebook event page?
Thanks.
link to airdrieoniansforindependence.wordpress.com
For the next indyref, two years qualification and tighter rules on postal voting. Who makes the rules? If it’s Westminster then there’s not much chance of getting any change.
soz ot. Is ronnie about about? yesnef organising an event from fife to dundee next spring, I wanted to see if the wings stall would show up, be available for dundee?
@ Lenny Hartley I did listen to a interview with a Intelligence Office of Manchester Police & they knew Paedophile’s were working with children ,but didn’t act on it . Intelligent ma Arse.
SFA buried they’re heads in the sand as did Celtic football club the image of the SFA & Celtic had to be protected .
Second home owners etc. Should not even be on the council voting register. They are register under council tax as second homes. Voting depends on permanent address in the UK. Electoral rules are bring broken by the council if second home owners are registered to vote.They should not even be on the electoral roll.
There have recently been changes to tight up the electoral register by councils. They have introduced further safeguards. In a too lax system. Taken people who should not be on electoral roll (up dated) and put on people who should be on the register. Registration forms have been sent out twice, recently. Punishment by fines or prosecution, if the information is not provided.
An agreement makes the rules for Referendum in Scotland (not devolves). Electoral Commission is supposed to endorse the rules but doesn’t. It evades responsibility.
Tax codes could leave out voters. 16/17 year old who do not work and haven’t yet applied for a tax code. They could apply for a tax code to vote.
Ronnie Anderson @ 9.29
Before the Berlin wall came down the East European Countries were still part of the Eastern Blic if Communist Countries and had Russian nuclear weapons parked on their territory.
They were not pointing at Mosciw!
Waaaaaaay off topic.
Or there again maybe not so.
Give yourself a treat and watch this video, it´s fgkncui brilliant.
link to youtube.com
Best laugh i´ve had since …….well 2015 really.
Kinda OT.
A wee tangent from the conversation about sovereignties and monarchies is the relevance of the various battles down through the ages.
If you have sovereignty, and its immovable, then what purpose does a battle solve if not to suppress (or defend) sovereignty, or “redefine” the boundary up to which such sovereignty applies?
At some point, I suppose the rules of law and sovereignty must be inferior to the rule of conquest, and it is that uncomfortable reality which makes the world a dangerous place. With sovereignty comes the obligation of defending it, and we are very lucky that in our times, International law can, (when it suits) and I hope ultimately will, see Scotland’s rightfully independent sovereignty properly recognised and protected. Nevertheless, it is sobering to think about all the periods in history when such privileges could only be held safe through force of arms and friendly “auld” alliances.
The Declaration of Arbroath is like the origin of the Nile. Without that seminal event in our history, and all that has flowed from it, there would not be a Scotland at all. Written at a time when Scotland was under continual threat of invasion, if not actual invasion, a picture begins to emerge of an embattled but determined wee country doing absolutely everything in its power and wit to defend its right to exist against depressing and seemingly unbeatable odds.
People say the Declaration and the way it enshrines sovereignty upon Scotland’s people wasn’t the original purpose of the document, but an inadvertent consequence of unknown dimension at the time. Maybe it was. But it changed the changed the world for Scotland and so very much of present day affairs and aspirations we believe in today. Maybe it wasn’t the consequence of wilful intent, but if that definition of sovereignty is in there as a mere consequence of desperation, then intended or not, it chimes just as loudly.
And the Unionists would have us haud oor wheesht and respect the 2014 result because they steamrollered our YES referendum with subversive propaganda we hadn’t the means to contest? Shame be upon them. So many of these Unionists wear their “pride” like an armband, but yet haven’t the grace to look our forefathers squarely in the eye after all they did for us.
What is truly remarkable however is Scottish Nationalism is not fuelled by bitterness or hatred to right the wrongs and injustices of the past. It only looks back to lift out the “gems” from our historic journey; the legal principles, the points of dispute, the defining light and critical path marking legitimacy from fraud. It’s not that Scotland craves independence, that is incidental, it really craves the justice and rectitude which would recognise Scotland is independent by default, and bring the charade of the United Kingdom to an end. End that Union, not through bitterness or animosity towards England or the English, but because it is a charade built upon baseless and false foundation, and outdated sham charades are not tolerated here in a modern, rigorous Scotland.
Manandboy & Robert Peffers
Probably creating (pardon the pun) more heat than light here.
Especially as I don’t have time to check right now.
I don’t think that Papal infallibility….and Robert,Manandboy is right….. became an aritical of faith AKA cannon law as far back as the 13th century.
Of course it may well have been but the concept is indeed that it only applies to church issues.
Just as an FYI..but does illustrate how much an idea about something can take root….Mary only became a Virgin in the mid 19th century.
And that one does fall under infallibility.
IE…it is a condition of the faith that you believe this.
All faiths do this kind of thing in one form or another,the concept is not exclusively Catholic.
But having said all that… Manandboy, Robert is correct in that regardless of what actual rule the pope was dispensing judgement under,he was indeed at that time the final authority.
He didn’t need infallibility to be written in,it was just accepted.
Also once it became an aritical of faith it’s considered to have always been that way.
Will try and get the actual date this was written in to cannon law later on.
@ Shrodingers cat You must hiv missed the Wings Team & Stall in Dundee quite ah few times , but the challenge is there for Other Wingers to set up a Stalls ( rogue coder) will supply goods for sale ,all profits you make goes back into building up your funds.
@ Tam Jardine, many thanks kid!
@ Robert Sutherland, well put, them that flee wi the craws get shot wi the craws! simples!
Rock says:
29 November, 2016 at 12:26 am
Scotland will never become independent as long as the likes of Rowling can vote in an independence referendum.
Ms Rowling will have just one vote, like the rest of us. We will win independence when we convince more than half the population of Scotland, regardless of where they were born. And it will happen, maybe not quickly enough for some here, but it will happen. Time is on our side. We keep fighting until we win. 🙂
IndyRef2 – Who should have a vote?
On this subject, I am concerned principally with the sovereignty of the country of Scotland and the Scottish People – and the need to protect that sovereignty, for it can be lost.
This is very important for all countries and nations, but particularly for small countries with much larger neighbours.
Let’s think of Holland (population 16 million ) and Germany (pop. 80 million)
Were any small country to allow, without restriction of any kind, the people of a much larger neighbouring country to come and vote in the small country’s elections, then it is not difficult to work out the consequences, particularly if the small country is rich and beautiful and the large neighbour much less so.
Over time, the small country would find itself losing control of its own destiny, as well as the running of its own affairs, as more and more people from the poorer, larger neighbouring country moved in – and if, in elections, they voted in the interests of the country they had left, but to which they still felt attached.
Allowed to continue in this way, this situation could very well end up with the smaller nation being ‘democratically’ taken over – and against the wishes of the native population – and the loss of sovereignty. The small country might even find itself annexed to the larger neighbouring country and ruled by it.
Remind you of anywhere nearer home?
To maintain and protect the sovereignty of any country involves very careful administration of elections, particularly when sovereignty is at stake.
In IndyRef14, was the sovereignty of Scotland fully protected? You tell me.
Paul Nuttal stood as a Conservative candidate in 2002 in the Sefton Metropolitan Borough council election. He came second in the Derby ward with 11.4% of the vote.
Regarding the Popes authority.
Remember that the Declaration in 1302 Unum Sanctum made it obligatory to recognise the authority of the Pope and Church if you wanted to save your soul.
Anyone whether commoner or King was therefore obliged to obey the Pope whether Ex Cathedra or not. He was an immensely powerful figure.
O/T
A quote from a BBC PQ weekly meeting or from the novel The Cone Gatherers ?.
Toughie….
“I agree,we ought never to be arrogant and overbearing;common decency itself,apart from any higher consideration would forbid that.But that it not to say that we should regard everybody as our equal.Such hypocrisy seems to me as abhorrent as arrogance….it is our duty to find an attitude to them,and to all like them,that recognises that inferiority,but not offensively.The maintenance of society on a civilised basis depends on us”
No,not toodleoothenoo but Robin Jenkins’s upper class Lady Kipper.
(worth a read)
Ukip and Brexit are a stitch up, a plan hatched years ago by the right wing bully boys..when the BNP failed.
The bigots and fascists get what they want..
And the wealthy right-wing establishment get to run away with the nation’s wealth…again.
Just like thatcher did with deregulation – but this time it’s the rich evading EU TRANSPARENCY.
Should Scotland be an independent country?
That is a question that has no qualifiers or caveats. It is a philosophical question without the personal baggage of what a voter might add.
When a voter adds an unwritten or unspoken qualifier to the question, they change it utterly and completely.
They have answered a different question and are being dishonest with themselves with their fellow Scots and they are cheating Scotland.
The philosophical aspect of independence is a constant and doesn’t change with which party is in government or with how much oil we have or what the national debt is.
What is needed is for voters to answer the question that was asked honestly, it shouldn’t matter where you were born to do this.
Unfortunately, there will be many No voters who won’t be able to do that. They are hypocrites and if they happen to be Scottish, they are a disgrace to their country.
link to oireachtas.ie
ronnie anderson wrote:
“I see our resident manny that lives under Big Stane is winding everybody up as usual. WEE TIP dont have conversations with Big Stanes unless your ah Geologist.”
Thanks, ronnie, that set me up for the day. Funny as feck!
@orri says: 29 November, 2016 at 10:12 am:
“A start, at least, would be to restrict votes in any election in Scotland to those who have a Scottish tax code. “
Not on Orri. All service personnel, most civil servants and MOD civilian staff. Not to mention those employed by big corporations would not get a vote.
What the zoomers want, but won’t say it, is that English folks should be dis-enfranchised!
If you work in Scotland you get a Scottish tax code. It’s not your employer who decides but where you work. If Holyrood allow themselves to get shortchanged on that I’d be very surprised. If the tax office are playing funny buggers here then I’ll assume gaining some control over VAT receipts will generate no income from UK wide chains headquartered in London.
Some time ago I said that the Scottish Gov should withdraw any contracts with the Bbc . After watching the Irish Parliament web channel to hear our FM Nicola Sturgeon . Shamed again Bbc Scotland for no coverage.
My mistake, it’s where you live that counts.
link to taxguideforstudents.org.uk
Who is a Scottish taxpayer?
Note: the SRIT takes effect from 6 April 2016.
To determine whether or not you are a Scottish taxpayer, you must follow these steps:
You must be a UK resident for tax purposes, under the Statutory Residence Test;
You must meet one of three conditions:
a. Either you have a “close connection” with Scotland; or
b. You do not have a “close connection” with England, Wales or Northern Ireland and you spend more days in Scotland than in any other part of the UK, in that tax year; or
c. You are a Scottish Parliamentarian for the whole or any part of the tax year.
If you are both a Welsh Parliamentarian and a Scottish Parliamentarian for the whole or part of the tax year, you might be a Scottish taxpayer.
Close connection
There are two tests for whether or not you have a “close connection” with Scotland, which depend on how many places of residence you have in the UK.
One place of residence in the UK
If you only have one place of residence in the UK in a tax year, and you live there for at least part of the year, you have a close connection with that part of the UK. So, if this is the case and your only place of residence (in the UK) is in Scotland, you are a Scottish taxpayer.
Two or more places of residence in the UK
If you have two or more places of residence in the UK during a tax year, you have to consider where your main place of residence is. To be a Scottish taxpayer, you must have a close connection with Scotland. This means your main place of residence must be in Scotland for more than it is in any other part of the UK. You must consider each part of the UK separately: Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England.
Sos Folks we have to listen to Glenn Campbell ( bbc) for the interpretation instead of the Senators own words to Nicola , ah mean it wouldn’t do to broadcast widespread admiration of the Irish Parliament to our FM or the praise in the way the Independence minded People;s conducted themselves during the 2014 Referendum .
And the Senators endorsement & support for Indy ref 2.
@orri
The HMRC can do tests like where the kids go to school, where the leisure facilities are people use and have memberships. It used to be the 183 day rule – where you are at midnight. I think that’s still used as well.
@ Ronnie Anderson, if you recall, Campbell’s buddy the odious Raymond Buchanan got his fingers burnt “interpreting” the statements of an Irish politician! For interpreting read lying! Where is that particular bastard now one wonders?
Re voting. It is surely the wisest thing to establish the principles and then work out the details about who qualifies to vote.
Being for or against the English, or anyone else for that matter, doesn’t come into it.
Thanks Ronnie for the link to Dublin
Here is the address to the Seanad by Our First Minister as a download file.
link to oireachtas.heanet.ie.
A standing ovation even and goodwill.
Apoplexy and foaming anticipated from the usual suspects.
The game is truly afoot.
Beidh an lá linn
UKIP like the Tories are playing to people’s prejudices and are stoking up tension and hatred for all people who are NOT English. They are manipulating people and orchestrating a false injustice that does not exist apart from inside their small xenophobic minds.
By portraying themselves as not only the saviours in BREXIT they now turn to saving England dear England and target Scots as the new enemy , it’s always ‘they are taking OUR money and WE ( the English) are getting nothing back’. This of course will not be recognised as factual with the decent people who live in England who will see this for exactly what it is…..propaganda fuelled hate.
This is what right wing organisations do ….their purpose is to create a false enemy so that they can be the defenders of the people and champion their fake crusade built on foundations of hate and bigotry …..us and them …us and them….us and them…….that’s their only way to success. smokescreens masking their true purpose and pandering to gullible bigots whose own prejudices have festered and now can bear fruit. Policies are unimportant and are secondary to the shallow fake patriotism they aspire to hold onto . They seek power that is all and champion no-one but THEMSELVES. It is TRUMP UK style….meaningless fake rhetoric that will do absolutely nothing to help any working class person in England.
Well let them continue… loud and clear, because it may finally open the eyes to some of the people in Scotland to what the future post BREXIT is going to be and the dire consequences for Scotland.
UKIP and their followers are inadvertently championing OUR cause and the world will look on and see the reality of why some Scots want to be free from the chains of oppression that exist in this disunited kingdom and those chains will grow tighter if we do not break free soon. Let the other political parties be in combined false denial and pretend they love us and they value us while at the same time they too continue to diminish our real contribution to their UKOK as they pander to the same English bigots and seek the same as UKIP….POWER. The only difference is they try to mask their true allegiance with the help of fake branch offices set up to appease the natives north of the border.
Finally we will see the true reality of our worth exposed, ironic that it had to be a party such as UKIP that would do it !
Manandboy 11.01am. Fully agree with this post.
Nuttall – the cream of the shite rises to the top, again and again.
Luigi,
“Ms Rowling will have just one vote, like the rest of us. We will win independence when we convince more than half the population of Scotland, regardless of where they were born.”
The vast majority of the English will never be convinced unless maybe if they are third generation.
I wrote FOR EXAMPLE, others may suggest different ideas.
But it is stupid to allow a fairly large section of the electorate whos loyalty is clearly, and rightly, to their mother country England, to have a say on Scottish independence from England.
A precedent has been set. EU citizens were prevented from voting in the EU referendum, rightly so in my view.
Maybe we are too stupid to be independent.
EU and other non Commonwealth citizens, honestly paying there taxes, are not allowed to vote in UK parliamentary elections.
Commonwealth citizens are mostly non-white, EU citizens are mostly white.
Is that racist?
Anne,
“I was born and grew up in Norn Iron in a unionist family, but have lived in Scotland for over 20 years, am (in part thanks to WoS) an enthusiastic supporter of independence and have converted 4 friends and family to the cause (and hope to increase that tally). Such a shame that I won’t get to vote in indy2……….”
Such a shame that EU citizens living in the UK for over 20 years were not allowed to vote in the EU referendum.
In addition they will be left in limbo after Brexit, if it happens.
At least you would be able to get Scottish citizenship immediately after independence.
Working for Independence. It may not be easy but we must keep going.