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Wings Over Scotland

Here’s how this works

Posted on January 31, 2013 by

1. Scottish Labour says universal free bus travel for pensioners is unaffordable.

2. Scottish Government manages to reduce the cost of universal free bus travel.


4. Repeat ad nauseam, ad infinitum.

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    69 to “Here’s how this works”

    1. MajorBloodnok says:

      I wonder what euphemisms will be used to describe this lost generation of opposition politicians when the history of the fag end of the Union comes to be written.  It won’t be pretty (and may only fill a one line footnote).

    2. scottish_skier says:

      I’m really not sure why Labour keep going with these tactics. SNP share 2011 = 45%. Latest poll SNP = 45%.

      Hitting it hard didn’t work. Neither did hitting it even harder. Same for hitting it hard as many times as possible. Maybe they need to go get the really, really big hammer and seriously thump it one. That’ll work surely?

      We’ve all been there – you know how it turns out when you do that.


    3. JLT says:

      I once read a paragraph from a book about Scottish and English Kings. These days, I find that it applies very well to what we are seeing now…

      When England has a strong King, then Scotland can never defeat England, no matter how strong the Scottish King is.
      When England has a weak King, but Scotland has a strong King, then England should tremble…

      It was applied to Edward 1st, King Robert the Bruce, and Edward the 2nd.

      I now see a very weak UK Parliament that gets worse with every elected government, and I see a very strong Scottish Parliament, led by a very astute politician.

      It does make you wonder….      

    4. Seasick Dave says:

      I think that this one goes before number one.

      Oh, and stick it after number three as well 🙂 

    5. velofello says:

      @ Scottish Skier:
      Constancy to purpose is a very commendable characteristic, unless of course your purpose is misguided.
      I don’t know what it is about Wings over Scotland, but some persons take part in discussions for a short period then no more. 
      Mr McIntyre OBE, Alex Gallacher frae Largs. are two that come to mind and yet there is no harassment here just viewpoints expressed and discussed.

      Alex Gallacher without doubt has constancy to purpose. I remember him from those long past days when I bought the Herald, he was forever writing in support of Labour such that i eventually penned a wee poem of him. I never sent it to the Herald as I doubted that they would print it.
      There is a wee man frae the tail o’ the bank,
      I write this wee verse to personally thank
      That with his letters to the Herald,
      Time and again,reminds me,
      Never to vote Labour again 

    6. MajorBloodnok says:


      It might help if they took their thumbs out of the way once in a while.

    7. Alastair Hutchisn says:

      Hi Majorbloodnok

      That is actually a very interesting question.  How will history judge JL, RD and WR?  Their arguements seem crazy now, who knows what the scholars in 100 years time will make of them?

      Could there be a bigger problem for the Labour, Tory and Lib Dem Parties on the horizon?  If Scotland votes YES in 2014 that means 3 of our 4 main parties have got it wrong.  They will also have to reform to become independent (sorry separate) Scottish Parties.  You couldn’t have political parties run from another country standing here surely (well not offically anyway).   Yes they can have links but the Labour Party, Conservative Party and whats ever left of what was the Liberal Democrats would have to in essence become new parties.

      If this happens the current policial generation in each of these parties would have a very hard time convincing voters to vote for them.  Even if JL etc had an overnight converstion they could not be taken seriously.  How could we elect people who have told us this will be a disaster? 

      There could be a huge gap in these parties to fill post 2014……. I would be paying attention to people in their ranks not making a big noise about Indy….. they might be the leaders of the new parties come 2016.  

      Mark Lazarowicz of Labour maybe?  Charles Kennedy of the Liberals?  Thoughts?         


    8. TamD says:

      classic example of doubleshite

    9. Tim says:

      Richard Baker: “There is no point celebrating that pensioners have free bus passes when increasingly they will struggle to fund a bus to use them on.”
      Cathy Leech (chair of the Scottish Pensioners’ Forum): “We welcome the decision by the Scottish government to safeguard the concessionary travel scheme in light of increased prices on some many other day to day items.  We are delighted that the Scottish government have the vision to see this as an essential provision, especially for those living in rural areas.”

    10. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Alastair –
      Aye. Perhaps they’ll start thinking ahead on a pragmatic, personal level (selfishly?politicians? heaven forfend…) and start jumping ship, plumping for jobs in the City down south, else retiring to spend more time with their families. 
      And what of our friends in the MSM? When will they start to shows signs of cracking, raising eyebrows or purposely looking weary when instructed to deliver yet another chunk of blatant spin? As and when they do they’ll be shown the door.
      I guess we should expect to be see a lot more new faces popping-up in Holyrood and manning the airwaves – there’s no way they’re all going to stick it for another two years. Anyone fancy a sweepstake on which well-kent BBC Scotland presenter will chuck it first?  

    11. Alastair Hutchisn says:


      There could be a mass exit down south from BBC Scotland ………….. First off though…… EMmmmmmm Kay(e) :o)  

    12. Seasick Dave says:


      Fivespot on Sally ‘What are we going to do?” Magnusson. 

    13. TheGreatBaldo says:

      Interesting that it’s the poor Bus companies that Baker is concerned……

      “It is unacceptable that the SNP have taken the independent and small operators to the wire to negotiate a deal which may not even cover the shortfall this year, leaving bus operators out of pocket and putting a further pressure on fares.”

      First Group and Stagecoach are indeed ‘independent’…..I think both would object to being refered to as ‘small’ given both are global players and pretty much have got the bus services in every Scottish city and Shire sown up between them….neither has any real cash flow problems far from it First Group after all recently made a multi billion pound bid for the West Coast Rail Franchaise.

      It’s also pretty safe to assume that the overwhelming majority of pensioners who use their travel cards will do so on a First or Stagecoach bus….

      There will of course be some small independents out there operating in the parts First/Stagecoach haven’t overwhelmed yet……but I suspect (just like independent Hauliers) escalating fuel costs are a far far more pressing concern and threat to their existance than pensioners and their concession cards.

      Even though I loath his party Lewis MacDonald* is a fine list MSP who serves the people of Aberdeen and the Shire well, the same cannot be said of Mr Baker who is the epitome of the talentless advisor and lobby fodder that makes up the Holyrood Labour Party 

      *I did actually give serious thought to voting for Lewis in 2011…..until one of his election pamphlets came thru the letterbox covered in quotes from the Daily Mail and the Torygraph 


    14. James McLaren says:

      Glenn Campbelly and that wee gnaff Gary Robertson, my vote although neither will get a sinecure higher than through-the-night on Radio Mersyside.

    15. muttley79 says:

      How will history judge Lamont, Davidson, Rennie etc? If there is a Yes vote I would imagine they would not even be a footnote in Scottish history (particularity a significant Yes vote).  I would imagine Salmond would get most of the praise.  An emergent new Scottish Labour Party would be noted as significant if there was a Yes vote.  If there is a narrow No vote then nothing really will have been settled.
      Whatever happens Salmond has earned his place in history.  When he took over as leader of the SNP in 1990 they were 2% behind the Tories.  A Scottish Parliament still seemed either a long way off, or at least some way off (Kinnock was leader of British Labour).  Salmond has broken the dominance of the Scottish Labour Party has it is constituted at present. 
      It looks like the unionist Scottish Labour Party is following the exact same course as the Scottish Tories after 1979.  Their recent sharp turn to the right could be used as evidence of this.  They are becoming more and more openly contemptuous of Scotland and its voters as the referendum process continues, and they suffer more and more rejection from voters.  At the same time their core British Nationalism is also becoming more and more evident.  This is at a time when the strength of British identity in Scotland (compared to those who would identity themselves as firstly Scottish) is in a long term decline.  This is despite last year’s events.

    16. Training Day says:

      Slightly O/T

      Folks, I sense a degree of complacency creeping in in posts in the last few days, that we’ll do this thing nae borra, and things are falling nicely into place. I have just come from a meeting of professional people where the notion of independence was openly derided, where the 23 percent mantra was blindly repeated, and where the vast majority of the Scots present felt able to conclude ‘it ain’t gonna happen’. It was an eye opener showing how much work we have yet to do, I can tell you. So please, no assumptions.

    17. Jeannie says:

      @seasick dave
      I’m with you…..I’d be glad to see the back of Sally Magnusson….she spends the whole week heaping criticism on the Yes Campaign then has the cheek to turn around and enthusiastically present a programme called “Songs of Praise”. No irony then.

    18. Seasick Dave says:

      Training Day

      I have come across several people recently who openly derided Independence but when I challenged them, in the nicest possible way of course, their defence fell away completely.

      Most of them admitted, with no prompting, that they didn’t know much about it but would need to find out more.

      I am under no illusions that it will be anything other than a long battle but once all the info is out there then I think that it will be very hard to vote NO for the continuation of Westminster rule.

      This is a once in a lifetime opportunity – Vote YES for a better Scotland. 

    19. ianbrotherhood says:

      When Kaye Adams was doing her wee plug for the show this morning she forgot what she was going to be talking about. You’d think she’d have a wee piece of paper, or even scribble the topics on her hand. Hardly inspires confidence, and may be evidence that her heart’s not in it…she’s a possible. 
      Maybe big Brian ‘Toby-Jug’ Taylor will be first – that would be inspirational. He’d just have to ping his braces, give the word, and some would surely follow…’you may take our journalistic integrity! You may take our researchers and credibility! But you will never take…our highly sophisticated but perfectly legal tax-avoidance salary schemes! Toodleoothenoo!’

    20. muttley79 says:

      @Training Day
      What profession are you in?  Roughly how many people were there?  Given that they used the 23% figure, where Devo-Max was included I would not worry about that.  It is more worrying that they derided it.  However we still have around 20 months to go to the referendum, and so there is still a lot of time for the tide of opinion to change.  By the way I have always said on here that it will be very difficult to get a Yes vote in the referendum.  I have no assumptions about that.  However, I do know that a Yes vote is certainly achievable.  
      @Ian Brotherhood
      If there is a Yes vote (see above) I would place these BBC presenters among the favourites in a sweepstake.
      Jackie Bird, Glenn Campbell, Kirsty Wark, Kaye Adams, Renton (forgot her first name), John Curtice…

    21. MajorBloodnok says:

      Don’t ping his braces. They’re not for holding his trousers up – they’re for keeping all his bits in in case he explodes.

    22. Doug Daniel says:

      In regards to Labour, Tories and Lib Dems don’t be too sure about them not remaining as parties run from England. Bear in mind that Sinn Fein have elected members in both parts of Ireland, so it’s not without precedent for a party to exist across a border.

      Can we be absolutely sure Scottish Labour are going to change the habit of a lifetime and actually acknowledge that the world has changed? Who’s to say Ian Davidson and co won’t remain in the UK Labour party and campaign for Scotland to rejoin the union?

      It sounds daft, but then so does the idea of Ed Miliband becoming the leader of a country. 

    23. Seasick Dave says:

      Training Day

      Direct any doubters you meet to:

      Or here, of course. 

      We should all keep a wee tally of all those we think we may have set on the road to YES and give an update on here to keep the troops motivated.

    24. MajorBloodnok says:

      @Doug Daniel

      In that case I would expect there to be strict legislation on the funding and affiliations of political parties eligible to field candidates at Scottish elections.

    25. creag an tuirc says:

      @Seasick Dave @Training Day

      I believe we have all been preparing ourselves for this battle. All of us sing from the same hymn sheet. The undecided/don’t knows will hear the same facts from all of us, they will be pointed to the same sources of information (blogs etc), they will be warned of the BBC and MSM and so forth. I will be getting heavily pro-active in the 16 weeks prior to the referendum, that is when all of us need to fight like we have never fought before. Our nation needs slapped out of the coma that the British establishment slowly ground us in to.

    26. ianbrotherhood says:

      And here’s a twist – what about MSM Scots who’ve made it down South? Will some of them no’ come back again, seeing a chance to do their jobs properly and become national heroes? Eddie Mair? James Naughtie…Lorraine Kelly!!…Nicky Campbell!…there must be hundreds who would jump at the chance to do Brewer’s job.

    27. muttley79 says:

      @Training Day
      Forget to add, I reckon that the Yes campaign will gradually announce more ‘converts’ to independence.  We need to have more of the calibre of Blair Jenkins.  I think this would help.

    28. Alastair Hutchisn says:

      @ Doug Daniel

      That is a very good point about Sinn Fein.  But if that was to happen surely a new Scottish Labour Party (or a left of centre party) would have to emerge separate from London Labour.  Maybe Murdo will get to lead his New Tory Party.

      I can see people like Davidson banging the union drum after Indy but his generation will die out.  The Scots of the future would see his views as crazy.  I can’t think of a country where its people wish to once more be run from another country.  (Just think of the Rep of Ire)

      @ Training Day

      I too have worked in places where there has been very strong anti Independence voices but I do feel this is changing.  (maybe I’m hoping its changing)

      I met 3 friends last weekend.  One is in the YES camp but not a crazy Nat and dislikes the SNP (she is a fomrer Lib Dem like me) but is a firm YES… the other two are very much in the NO camp… but for the first time one of them was actually on the fence.  Very much along the lines of anything must be better than Westminster….. people are, in my opinion, slowly moving from NO to MAYBE…. thats with 20 months to go.  It’s not in th bag…. the bookies show that…….. but the odds they are offering on indy are not that long!



    29. Vronsky says:

      Seen this?  Duncan Hamilton at a Glagow Uni debate kicking the silly bastards around the floor. 

    30. Doug says:

      I too have noticed that pessimism amongst people I speak to.  ‘It won’t happen’ or doubt in general expressed.  I have certainly found that there are those implacably opposed and they more often than not seem to spout the Better Together memes remarkably close to verbatim.  I suspect they will be the toughest ones to convince, but I suspect even they are not all ‘lost’.

      The largest number, from my experience (and I include my fiancee amongst them), is those who either doubt it would happen (but will still probably vote yes) or those who would vote yes but were worried about <insert problem here>.  In my experience far more numerous, and I suspect much easier to reach/convince. 

      It is our job to be the positive ambassadors, to use gentle reason and persuasion, to contrast ourselves with the angry/belligerent ‘folks who frequently speak for the ‘no’ side.  The difference in tone and aspiration is not going unnoticed.  I think that for many the Yes vote is what they want in their heart.  We just have to connect that to their heads!

    31. Ananurhing says:

      Training Day,

      Agree with you whole heartedly. This is not a level playing field, and we have a long way to go. If this was only down to the competence of the opposing campaigns and politicians, independence would be a toe poke. The fact is the No camp don’t really have to do very much. The MSM are conducting their campaign for them FOC. The No camp merely have to feed the momentum now and again, albeit cack handedly, and it appears to be working for them.

      I don’t think for a second that all is lost. Not by a long shot. But we’re up against the British and Scottish establishments, who’ve been doing this kind of thing all over the world for 300+ years.

      We’re not winning the argument at the moment, and for the people who need convincing, Blair Jenkins alone, as good as he is, is not enough.     


    32. Vronsky says:

      Naughtie at least is CIA.  He might be back, or not.  Depends what they tell him to do.

    33. muttley79 says:

      Why do you say Naughtie is CIA?  Yes, Duncan Hamilton was very good there.  Could do with him and Andrew Wilson back in the SNP.

    34. Training Day says:

      Muttley, Dave et al,

      What was striking about the gathering was that the default position is the assurance with which those deriding independence can confidently publicise that fact. I put that down to the notion that the majority are comfortable being in the majority – well, duh – and therefore it’s fine to mock independence as that’s what’s perceived as the ‘majority’ view.

      Ask ten people if they believe what they read in the newspapers.  Ten people will derisively dismiss that notion.  A fair number of the same ten will then repeat e.g. Curtice’s/MSM 23% shite as fact.   

      I am far from certain that we’ll lose, by the way – far from it.  But there is a lot to do – and on that note, to keep spirits up, I have won 3 people over this week alone 🙂

    35. muttley79 says:

      I agree with you, Training Day, that there is a lot of work to do.  If a strong, grassroots independence  movement can be built, and there is evidence to suggest this is occurring, then progress and support for independence should start to build in all sections and layers of Scottish society.

    36. kininvie says:

      The cracks in the ice sheet are there. Tiny, but perceptible.

    37. ianbrotherhood says:

      Vronsky –
      The clip of Duncan Hamilton is superb – that alone would sway many undecided. What a difference it makes to hear conviction in someone’s voice. It can’t be faked. Hopefully, when we’re speaking to people, via here or face-to-face, they’ll pick up on that as well. We don’t have to lie or spin, and that makes it all so much easier.
      It was interesting, today in FMQ’s, that Lamont had a dig at the dastardly ‘cybernats’, and Salmond used a Twitter (?) text to rub her face in prima facie evidence of the state her party is now in – what a difference social media is making, right to the top. It’s fantastic.  

    38. Holebender says:

      <pedant> ahem… ad nauseam </pedant>

    39. Davy says:

      I am sorry but I find I have to disagree with a number of postings on here about how the leaders of the unionist parties in Scotland will be precieved in the future. I HONESTLY believe they will have a significate role in the future of Scottish politics.

      Where else has it been possible to find three political leaders with the capability of ramming both feet into their gobs within the space of one 1/2 hour period every week, and week upon week. 

      The sheer improbibility of this occuring naturally must be enormous, therefore I believe that history will always remember “lamont, Davidson & the other one”, as a force of nature hopefully never to be repeated.

    40. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      ahem… ad nauseam


    41. Cameron B says:

      Do we really want any of these “tv celebrities” back. After all, how does one succeed in the belly of the beast. As to the MSM running the unionist propaganda campaign FOC, the situation is far more perverse, as the MSM is subsidised by Scottish taxes and purchases. I strongly believe that we need to seek the intervention of some independent observer body. Otherwise the next two years threatens to seriously damage the Scottish psyche.

    42. MajorBloodnok says:

      Sire, the pedants are revolting.

    43. JLT says:

      I’ll tell you something. On the eve of the vote, there will no doubt be a live debate between Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling. If Alex Salmond speaks as passionately as Duncan Hamilton did at the University meeting, then not only will Alex utterly annhilate his opponent, but the argument will be so strong, that Independence will be won….

      Having seen what Duncan did; with such fire, fervour,  and truth, then it must surely move even those who have strong doubts to finally say ….Yes.

    44. muttley79 says:

      @Cameron B
      I feel strongly that we should make allowances.  Therefore, the likes of Catriona Shearer and Cat Cubie should be retained.
      I know you have been along to the Yes Edinburgh meetings.  Is it too late to go along?

    45. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Come on man. Wouldn’t you like to see Lorraine Kelly presenting Newsnight Scotland? She’s a lot cheerier than Brewer. Or what about Carol Smillie doing GMS? And let’s have ‘one for the ladies’ – Darius presenting FMQs.
      It’s a winner!!
      And to cap it all, let’s have a new show called ‘I’m a BBC Scotland Presenter, Get Me Out Of Here!’ 
      (BTW, MajorBloodnok, I’ve been unable to shift that awful image of Brian Taylor exploding. Let’s hope it never happens!) 

    46. douglas clark says:

      Blair Jenkins could do worse that appoint Duncan Hamilton to some sort of major role in the ‘Yes’ campaign. That was absolutely brilliant, so it was. From the heart and the head.

    47. MajorBloodnok says:

      I shouldn’t think so.  There was a training session for YES Ambassadors last night at the Drummond High School (at the bottom of Broughton Street) but I couldn’t make it.
      I’m involved with the South Edinburgh/Marchmont/Morningside YES group which can be contacted through the YES campaign, but haven’t had time to do much recently.  A number of the group lurk or contribute here – including WoS’ resident cartoonist, Chris Cairns.

    48. Cameron B says:

      I must admit it would make little difference to me if they came back, as I got rid of my telly about 20 years ago. I did relent to pressures from work colleagues to “tune in”, when I was running a small business. They felt I needed to keep up to date with the latest memes and trends. I got rid of it though, when I stepped away from the business.
      The point I was trying to make, is that these people have succeeded by selling out. That is if they ever considered anything further than their own self-interest. They have a proven track record in conducting the propaganda campaign we are up against. Why would anyone want to invite these dubious characters in to their living rooms?

    49. Vronsky says:

      I’ve got an idea.  Instead of attacking the last thing that the No camp said, let’s (just as an exercise, you understand) attack the last thing the Yes camp said. Which was – er- well, it was – er – um – well, obviously – er –

    50. MajorBloodnok says:

      The YES camp says things all the time – it just doesn’t get into the press.  That’s why it has to be a grassroots one-to-one conversation and conversion sort of thing.  Obsessing about the MSM is what Labour’s spin-meisters do, and look where it’s got them.

    51. Jeannie says:

      @major bloodnok
      Sire, the pedants are revolting.
      A Wizard of Id fan, by any chance?

    52. Jeannie says:

      And I’d be keeping Izzy Fraser, by the way.  She’s one of the most professional of them, by far. And Derek Bateman (though I’ve got a mental block about him and keep inadvertently calling him Derek Batman)

    53. MajorBloodnok says:

      Er… no, but I know what it is.  Hadn’t realised it was one of their lines!

    54. Jeannie says:

      @major bloodnok
      It probably isn’t, just sounds like it could be.  It’s old stuff, but I still love it.

    55. ianbrotherhood says:

      I was only having a laugh mate, but I suppose you raise a serious point. I’m not sure all of these people have consciously ‘sold out’ so much as been ‘bought’ by very canny folk in the MSM whose job it is to make sure they don’t employ potential troublemakers. It’s not fair to name names, but we all know that these media bases are brimming-over with amiable airheads who’ve never had an original/critical thought in their lives, and I don’t doubt that such fundamental naivete must be a great asset for some of them (as well as a great comfort for their more wordly-wise managers). Then again, there are the Savilles and uber-egos who really believe that they’re above it all, but are every bit as docile and harmless politically. It would be interesting, just as an example, to know what are the chances of an active paedophile enjoying a successful career in the BBC as opposed to, say, a Communist? A difficult one to find out via a staff questionnaire, but the facts exist, even if the stats don’t.
      Many moons ago I worked for a Scottish commercial radio station. Most of the DJs were alright, but one in particular was a total botton, thought himself special, was using the place as a stepping-stone to greatness and never tired of telling everyone about it. This guy used to hire a chauffeur-driven car to deliver him to work, and he’d sit in the back, pretending to have a conversation on a mobile phone the same size as a chunky paperback.  He would have the car parked right outside the front door, continue the imagined conversation for five minutes or so, then get out to fight his way past the fans waiting for a glimpse of him. Only problem – the station was situated in a huge industrial park in the back of beyond and very few ‘fans’ of anyone ever bothered hanging about. At most he’d get half a dozen spotty teenagers who were hoping to catch a glimpse of some band coming in to do a promo. Didn’t stop him – he would force them all to accept his signature, even though they had no idea who he was. He’s still going, and made it to ‘Hollywood’, so I suppose he got what he wanted.
      But – and this is the point I wanted to make earlier – for every ten of these egomaniacs there must be one (surely, just one!) decent, selfless character who went into the ‘meejya’ with high hopes and standards, ideals, ambition to be a good journalist/writer/reporter/documentary-maker/director/producer etc etc. They must be there. I’m sure they are. And if the ‘Yes’ campaign continues to do well? (aye,okay, fingers crossed, let’s not get ahead of ourselves etc) some of these people will remember what motivated them, get a wee reminder of what that felt like.
      Imagine being in an industry where you suppress your real feelings/opinions for decades, and then, all of a sudden, you realise that what you always wanted to see is actually unfolding? I wouldn’t be surprised if we see a real ‘homecoming’ of some big big names over the next year, and that could help -massively – to counteract MSM efforts to diminish our cause.


    56. muttley79 says:

      Cheers Major.  I am not sure in what way I would like to be involved with the Yes campaign.  I am an advocate of Groucho Marx’s “I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.”


      Yes, I forgot about Isabel Fraser, Derek Bateman.  They are good.

    57. Cameron B says:

      Note to self; must emote more! 🙂

    58. mrbfaethedee says:

      “and Salmond used a Twitter (?) text”
      have to say I ended up hoping that this is the start of something; that YES will bring the channels of the internet into the frame if tv and paper won’t play straight.
      time will tell, i guess.
      btw – I hope you’re right about a homecoming (literal or figurative) of a 1 in 10…

    59. ianbrotherhood says:

      @mrbfaethedee –
      ” I ended up hoping that this is the start of something; that YES will bring the channels of the internet into the frame if tv and paper won’t play straight.”

      Bang-on. And AS seemed to do just that today. I posted earlier, confessing my bafflement that Lamont had chosen to attack on the Lucinda Creighton front – it just seemed such an odd choice, given that the Irish minister had already expressed regret that her statement had, apparently, been ‘misconstrued’ and ‘manipulated’.
      Today, when Lamont kept pushing the issue, AS finally referred to the correspondence, mentioned ‘misconstrue’, but avoided ‘manipulated’. Over on the ‘Acts of Non-Compliance’ thread (at 3.46pm) Fiona wrote this:
      “I think even the decision to let Alex Neil and Fiona Hyslop send a shot across the BBC bows has also been thought out, it would do no good for Salmond, Sturgeon, Blair or Canavan to get involved and the less well known faces are sent to calmly, but forcefully state the case.”
      And that makes it all fall into place – AS knew not to rise to it and risk antagonising the Beeb. He didn’t have to. Instead, Lamont made a fool of herself by praising the Herald, Scotsman, BBC etc when anyone who’s spent more than two minutes looking into the matter knows that it was already done, dusted, and dead.
      Just goes to show – Doug Daniel got through to Scotland Tonight last night, and, one way or another, the pesky cybernatters and their unionist peers have made important contributions to Scottish parliamentary records today.
      This is what democracy looks like….

    60. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Jeannie –
      Nice one. Wouldn’t Derek ‘Batman’ find a natural roost here on WoS?
      “With great power comes great responsibility, ya bams.” 

    61. mrbfaethedee says:

      Thanks for your take (and pointing me to Fiona’s) on the handling of the Creighton shenanigans. I’ve been learning over the few years I’ve been following this stuff that the times I’m itching for somebody to just get stuck in is usually the point I ought to realise that’s why they’re in there, not me!
      The thing that’s nags at me (and this is jsut hte latest example) – bringing up Lucinda Creighton at FMQ’s and I think ‘mental!’ Are they really that stupid? Complacent? Sincere? Or am i missing something?
      You’re right though – for all the internet’s faults as an echo chamber, it’s easy to underestimate how easy it makes it for people to work their way back to sources for themselves, and get their own take. The ‘fourth estate’ is being taken over by a whole new frontier.
      As you say – ‘this is what democracy looks like’ – hopefully this is where the grass roots start to break on through; indy’s top-billing, but there are a ton of dreams hoping to bloom in its wake.

    62. Vronsky says:

      “Why do you say Naughtie is CIA? ”
      Plenty of traces and I can’t be bothered re-excavating the links.  Do your own research.  I will say that there is nothing remarkable about being CIA – their assets are not Bruce Willis-type shooterists, more just lassies in offices, anyone close to information that could be useful.  My best man at my wedding worked for a business journal in Austria and admitted without embarrassment that he wrote reports for the CIA – very sexy stuff about tomato production in Georgia (really) which he knew a lot about.  He was a convinced Marxist who spoke fluent Russian.  It’s a funny old world.

    63. ianbrotherhood says:

      :@mrbfaethedee –

      “…a ton of dreams hoping to bloom in its wake.”

      Like it man. Like it a lot. A positively Joycean note there…easy to imagine Alasdair Gray using that to make some weird illustration!

    64. mrbfaethedee says:

      and you man, you’re too kind.
      Love the notion of it cast as an image, makes me wish I could paint! Have to settle for the reality 😉

    65. Craig P says:

      Training Day, I had a similar experience, 4 of us in a bar, one starts deriding Salmond and asks the rest of the group what we think of Indy. I express support to expressions of surprise, the rest are against as ‘the SNP are racists’ to ‘it would be nice – but we can’t afford it’. I talk them through the recent police figures that were misreported as showing an increase in anti English attacks, where the true data showing the opposite was only reported in newsnet Scotland, asking them why they thought this was being misreported in the mainstream media, and that we could afford independence, they just had to seek alternative views. 
      Cue snorts of disbelief and a rapid changing of topic. However at least one of them will have a look, and 10 minutes here would turn a mebbes no into a mebbes yes. 1 in 4 for Indy becoming 2 in 4 by the end of the year. 

    66. Robert Kerr says:

      Straws in the wind….

      I attended a Burn’s Night in a Freemason’s Lodge as an “Honoured Guest”. Not for the first time… but things had changed.

      No formal toast to the Monarch and only saltires on the wall.

      The immortal memory included a toast to the Monarch, the guest speaker obviously thought it a serious omission.

      I am now working on my Masonic friend re his vote. He is a died in the wool working class tory, not many left, my fall back position is if I cannot persuade him to vote Yes at least I can persuade him not to vote No. 

      As we have noted, if each of us can persuade one “No” to change its in the bag.

      Another guest at the Burn’s Night was a good friend who teaches mathematics at a Catholic High School. He has noticed that at the school dances many of the boys now wear kilts. 

      Straws in the wind indeed.


    67. andrew_haddow says:

      The reason Lamont brought up the Creighton affair at FMQ’s is that she didn’t know about the clarification email. This ignorance was due to the BBC’s rather strange reluctance to report its existence, far less its content.
      Nice of them to draw it to our attention, though 😀 

    68. Training Day says:


      Craig, your story further highlights the mindset that is still too prevalent out there.  The average voter has little inclination to access the facts if they are not readily available.  There exists a ‘comfort zone’ of conditioned complacency in the voter currently evincing the symptoms of the default no position which is reinforced by the infantile unionism of ‘our’ MSM – after all, that position is seen as the ‘majority’.

      How to disrupt this comfort zone?  We need to get a positive message out there, yes, but we need short, sharp, blunt messages about McCrone, the consequences of voting No etc. directly to every house in Scotland – and not a month before the referendum, when many people will regard these messages as contrived at the last minute and be more likely to dismiss them, but now..right now, Mr Jenkins..

    69. Morag says:

      I can’t be bothered re-excavating the links.  Do your own research.

      Ah.  One of these.

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