From man to pig and pig to man
Below is an article taken from the UK media today about the Scotland Bill.
Give it a read through, and pay attention. There’ll be a very short quiz at the end.
DEMOCRACY HAS DELIVERED, AND THE WHINING SNP IS ABOUT TO COLLIDE WITH ECONOMIC REALITY
What is that high pitched whining sound? It’s the SNP grievance machine cranking into action.
Even thousands of miles away it can be heard on social media if you follow the right/wrong people, who are furious that the substantial new powers for the Scottish Parliament do not, yes, you guessed, go far enough.
After a week in which, after their farcical approach to tax credits, when they didn’t know how to use the new powers coming the way of Holyrood it was also crystal clear that the SNP didn’t even know what these powers are.
For people whose single political aim is independence for Scotland, everything that doesn’t deliver independence is an outrage. That was the source of perhaps half of last night’s anger, and there was never anything that could be done about that.
The Scotland Bill, debated by the Commons this week, is a pacification strategy designed to appease the troublesome tribes in the northern part of the kingdom.
We can now expect a great song and dance from the Nats about this latest ‘outrage’ – their view not mine – from the Conservative government, all of which will do nicely with their friends in masking the appalling mess they have on their hands with the policies of which they’re already in charge at present but which have always been devolved.
There is good news though. The SNP grievance machine, which has hummed along so successfully in the last year since the referendum, is starting to malfunction. Last week, the party was made to look very silly on the question of tax credit cuts.
There is a clamour north of the border for the UK changes being introduced by George Osborne to be mitigated. The SNP initially said it did not have the powers to do so. That’s Westminster’s fault, again, apparently. Ah, no, actually it can mitigate the changes, pointed out everyone else. It just has to find the money to do so.
And this debate and last night’s anger also starkly demonstrates the limits of trusting a party whose sole aim is independence with running a powerfully devolved government. The SNP have demonstrated time and time again that their every political decision is a calculation about how to make independence more likely, not a calculation of how to make Scotland a better place. Scotland deserves better.
However, forever moaning about a referendum keeps the Nat ‘ultras’ happy – all those new members who want another vote, no matter if it does result in another defeat. La Sturgeon wants to play a longer game but in the short-term a whinge about those dastardly Tories will maintain the gripe quotient perfectly well.
Though the Scottish Nationalists are fond of conflating party and national interest they no more speak for Scotland than right-wing euro-fanatics within the Tory party speak for Britain.
Most of Scotland voted No last September. The question ‘What kind of country do you wish to be?’ received the answer ‘A British one’.
Supporters of last year’s Yes campaign have been sold the lie that if they only keep the flame alive until a second referendum can be forced on the Scottish people, they will be able to set aside the democratic choice of Scots made last September.
As a result, too many of our fellow Scots are unable to move on. It is time for the leaders of the former Yes campaigning parties to lead, and tell their followers that a new phase has begun.
It is easy to complain, and in politics it is more fun. Feel the flush of righteous anger. Shake your head at the incompetent antics of the government of the day or an uncaring Westminster elite.
Yet, governing – with extensive tax powers, as the Scottish Parliament now has – is much more difficult than opposition. There are choices to be made, all the time. Funds are limited and competing voices demand their share of scarce resources.
The dawning of reality will almost certainly not be enough to wake up sufficient Scottish voters from their sleep in time for 2016 Holyrood election. The SNP simply has to keep pushing the dream of the “45” (the 45% of Scots who voted for independence) and get that vote out. In contrast, the Unionists are splintered in three parties.
Beyond that, there is hope. The SNP’s broad coalition spans left-wing voters wanting higher taxes, middle class middle-ground voters wanting “free” stuff and core Nationalists obsessed with securing a second referendum.
It was easy to hold this lot together, when the complaint of insufficient powers was the focus. It may be more difficult several years down the line, if it becomes apparent to reasonable people that complaining about powers always was cover, created by a party elite obsessed with breaking up the UK.
As long as powers were the focus, they did not have to resolve or confront internal contradictions that apply in normal, non-constitutional polities, on questions such as the size and power of the state, or the best levels of taxation and spending. Life is about to become a little more difficult for the SNP.
The passing of the final Commons stage of the Scotland Bill and the fulfilment of the Vow is to be widely welcomed. A powerful Scottish Parliament within a strong United Kingdom is what Scots voted for. It has been delivered.
The perma-grievance politics of the SNP and much of the erstwhile Yes campaign saps the will of decent people and undermines democracy. This politics of division needs to end.
So, now for the question: was the above written by:
(a) Alex Massie for the Spectator?
(b) Alan Cochrane for the Telegraph?
(c) Iain Martin for CapX?
(d) Duncan Hothersall for LabourHame?
The answer, of course, is (e) all of the above. We lifted paragraphs out of all four hacks’ diatribes* and pasted them together more or less at random, unedited, to see if it was possible to tell them apart or even see the joins. We’re thinking of submitting it to the Daily Mail under Chris Deerin’s name and seeing if we can get paid for it.
It’s a telling piece, which efficiently and accurately summarises the attitude of both Labour and the Tories to the Scotland Bill. Both parties have leapt on it with glee, forgetting even to pretend that it’s about anything other than making life difficult for the SNP and punishing the 50% of Scots who voted for them. (And everyone else.)
The uncontrolled excitement may yet be premature. The Bill has yet to pass through the Lords, and more importantly to receive the required legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament. As the gruesome details become clear, public support – already distinctly lukewarm – may die entirely.
The Scottish Government has already made clear it’s prepared to block the bill if it considers it to be against Scotland’s interests. It’s currently very difficult to see where a great deal of public opposition to that view would come from.
(Almost the only positive on offer as far as voters are concerned is the power to mitigate Tory tax-credit cuts, but the incredible difficulty, complexity and cost of the move – now that Labour and the Tories have teamed up to block the devolution of the credits themselves – provides a strong case that the power isn’t worth the price.)
The failure of the loaded and booby-trapped Scotland Bill would kill once and for all the idea that Westminster could be trusted to deliver the sort of home rule that Scots consistently say they want. The crass, insulting Tory-Labour stitch-up played out in last night’s Commons “debate” is a bad look for the Union.
So we hope Alex-Iain Cochersall writes many more triumphalist, belligerent articles gloating about how the new powers will bring about the humiliation of the SNP (far and away the most popular government in Scotland’s history) and vengefully reduce the nation to a broken financial wreck unable to support its people. We could only dream of being able to construct a more compelling argument for independence.
.
.
Paragraphs:
1, 2, 7-8, 15-20: Martin
4, 9, 13-14, 21-22: Hothersall
3, 6, 10: Cochrane
5, 11, 12: Massie
Title: Hothersall/Martin
[…] Below is an article from the UK media about the Scotland Bill. Give it a read, and pay attention. There’ll be a very short quiz at the end. […]
Good stuff and we must counter this Red and Blue Tory nonsense about the Vow being delivered and strongest parliament on the planet.
Labour are campaigning with street stalls on Stopping Tory Tax Credit cuts this Saturday ……you have been warned.
link to scottishlabour.org.uk
Then in May the question ‘What kind of party do you wish to represent you at Westminster?’ received the answer ‘A Nationalist one.’
We’re expected to respect The Sovereign Will of the Scottish people in the referendum, but when 50% of voters return 95% of Scottish MPs from one party, apparently they don’t represent Scots at all.
The SNP represent just under 50% of Scottish voters. The three unionist MPs represent 46.7% of Scottish voters (the rest went to parties that didn’t win seats like UKIP, the Greens, the SSP et al.) 50% is a bigger number than 46.7%, isn’t it?
Next year the polls suggest an even greater mandate for the SNP in Holyrood. Are the unionist witterers going to dismiss the sovereign will of the Scottish people there too?
I am not sure what the SG should do about the Scotland Bill. Should they reject it in a moderate fashion, requesting more extensive negotiations between the UK government and the SG, or should they just accept it and make the best of it? I incline towards the former option. The SNP are going to be criticised for whatever they do by the unionists and the MSM anyway, so that it a given, and accepting it meekly does not sit well with me. Perhaps it is time to raise the stakes a bit, and go for a confrontation in a moderate way.
Not Dunc, too long and too many strange clever sounding words. Not pithy enough for Massey, not batshit enough for Cochrane. So I’ll go for Iain Martin, lickspittle for the establishment and Royal gong hopeful.
… of course I didn’t read the para after the quiz haha!
After next years election the SNP should take a leaf out of the Tories doctrine of changing voting boundaries and getting rid of the AV system, reduce the number of Msps as there is no place for 2nd rate clowns from Tories / Primark Tories & Lieb Dems. I would like to see the reaction when the SNP vote this change in and they know there number is up for good!!
Yeah the ‘Great Stitch Up’ from yesterday has either to be ignored as BBC Scotland does or, where it must be commented on, it has to be embroidered with all sorts of concocted fabrications in the Newspapers.
I asked a few folk in the cafe this morning about our ‘new powers’ and in every case, except one, was met with a blank stare and a shrug. Most folk don’t know what’s going on and a few think we’re getting more money !
In the one exception, I was informed that there were no ‘new’ powers and any we might get would be worthless.
PS:
The Tories have delayed their ‘Sunday Trading Bill’ today until after they exclude the SNP later this year with the EVEL legislation.
Funny old democratic world init! 🙂
SNP X 2 at the election.
“Alex-Iain Cochersall” – clearly too much hatred to be contained in a single entity so it fragmented into a malicious hive-mind!
Hear, hear! These people are mad if they think Scots are going to thank Labour or the Tories (or reward either at the ballot box) for their actions and words yesterday.
Is that what you call a Collage a Trois in telling porkies.
Maybe they can pig themselves out a ménage a trois
You could also have added snippets from David Torrance’s crib sheet which Derek Bateman demolishes.
But who wrote the original press release? The Politics of Grievance certainly sounds as if it emanated from David Mundell’s office. Some of it sounds like Foulkes. I think it should be sent to the lab for fingerprinting.
Muttley @ 4:41pm:
I think you’re right. What the SG should be doing at this moment is working out exactly how to make sure everyone in Scotland knows the ways in which it would harm the people here if they just accepted the nonsense that has been offered.
Waste no time pandering to what either unionist politicians or journalists might say because (much like Corbyn at the cenotaph) they are going to find some way to criticise anyway.
Let me tell you a story…
Once upon a time there were these four wee boys who all thought they were better than the poor in the world. They decided one day that they would get together around a table and write a wee story about how pathetic the poor were.
As it turns out the four wee boys, Eenie, Meanie, Minie and Mo all completed their stories around the same time. They passed their stories around and after reading each story they all had to admit that they could not tell who’s story was who’s.
In the end it took the wonder of an adult who oversaw the proceedings to help them out of their predicament. The adult in question was a Reverend and through his generosity he was able to combine their four stories into one. 😉
Let this be a lesson to us all. NEVER put four unionist alleged journalists in the same room at the same time and ask them all to write a story. All you’ll end up with is mince and you’ll have to cut and paste their work to make sense of it all! 😀
The SG can’t possibly accept the Bill as it stands…why on earth would they?? All we would get is shafted (again) and “well, YOU agreed to it!!
of course Scotland must behave like a good little colony from now on.
The Establishment are now entering the long game, to hopefully wear down the SNP over next few years while keeping Scotland in the tight grip of the union, watching the erosion as voters drift back to the trio of Westminster parties. Tories couldn’t care less about democracy, it’s about power, wielding it and holding on to it while changing the rules of the game to suit themselves.
Scotland remains a vessel for transferring resources to the Treasury, what we need to do is to ensure the long game isn’t played out. We’ve got five years folks, if we don’t achieve independence by 2021, Scotland will be trapped forever as long as there is £billions to be plundered out of it, and by fair means or foul (it will be foul) this bunch of Tories and their red mates will make sure of that.
Yeah, thanks for this! I had calmed down a bit after last night and am sitting at work ready to head home. Now I’m a raging lunatic again – Please help the innocent, I’ll be on the M74 in 10 mins!
“… of course I didn’t read the para after the quiz haha!”
PAYING ATTENTION FAIL. REPORT TO DEPARTMENT OF RE-EDUCATION THROUGH PUNCHING.
English votes for Scottish laws is it,time for UDI.
As an aside: I think we should get together a study of other “devolved parliaments” to ascertain just how powerful Scotland’s is. Most American states, Swiss cantons, Canadian provinces, Spanish autonomous communities, Netherland provinces, German Länder, and so forth have much greater powers over taxes, broadcasting, and whatnot than Holyrood does.
Everyone in Scotland should know the name Gagauzia, and be asking: why is it good enough for them, but not enough for us?
I can see justification for acceptance – as long as the flaws of the Scotland Bill are highlighted and made clear to every voter in Scotland. After all, the SNP represent all their constituents, so I can see why they feel they may need to.
On the other hand, I think they would be entirely forgiven for rejecting the bill on the basis that it is a bald, naked trap intended to force the Scottish Parliament to rob Peter to pay Paul. People trust the SNP; they don’t trust the other parties. Even many No voters think the SNP have Scotland’s interests at heart. They don’t believe the Vow is being delivered. Nicola Sturgeon is popular; the other party leaders barely register.
This isn’t a case of them being bold or daring for me – it’s a case of saying “will this help the people of Scotland?” and deciding on those terms. If they can present a cast-iron case as to why this package will be more detrimental to Scots than rejecting it.
(Personally speaking, I’m looking enviously at the Catalonians and what they’re doing – but then, they have their own 24-hour news channel.)
Scottish Lass:
That’s a rather good point. Only furthers my conviction that they should reject and explain to people why accepting would be harmful. It could be difficult to get that message out, but leafleting could be a way if media will not let them speak.
Former Slab leader quote from before the REF! Did she know what The Labour Party would do.
@johannLamont “don’t believe propaganda about extra powers and riches heading to Edinburgh”
Should get her old job as branch manager back as Kez isn’t in charge .
Irony Slab having street stalls against the Tory Tax Credit Cuts ! does she know and will she comment or is she still hiding?
This really sums up your writing Stuart. Witty, intelligent and informative. Brilliant.
(Just realised this looks like blurb for a book).
More please.
‘A rollicking good read’
The greater insult lies in the betrayal laid on the loyal backs of voters who wanted to stay in the Union. They’re just as much subjected to ridicule as the rest of us.
Vote No and Get Screwed Equally.
Grouse Beater @ 5:11:
Exactly. I think the SG needs to make clear to Noes what the unionist parties intend to be their reward for their loyalty to UKOK.
Labour may think they have little to lose in Scotland, but they seem to forget the Councils, thinking nothing can happen to them.
Consider Labour Councils trying to put out the re-elect me message, overshadowed by the tax credit scandal they have created.
My preference is for the SG to reject the Scottish Bill in its entirety. The First Minister should come on television and explain to everyone why.
At the same time use the speech as a platform to announce that due to the WM governments failure to honour the Vow, the SNP will be standing next year on a manifesto that demands FFA from WM.
If we win a majority and they refuse to grant/negotiate FFA, to me that is a genuine trigger to call a further referendum. Probably around 2019 as we should be in control of most councils by then.
Sorted!
The photograph of the pigs accompanying this article is appropriate given that the new Tory logo looks a bit like a pig – in a union jack.
They should reject it in the bluntest terms, tell everybody right now it will not get through Holyrood, and declare an intention to hold a second referendum on the basis that The Vow was a fraud.
There is no alternative.
I can’t be the only one on that’s sick of getting the piss ripped out of us by these weirdos.
“The Scottish Government has already made clear it’s prepared to block the bill if it considers it to be against Scotland’s interests.”
Will it block it or bottle it?
We already know it is against Scotland’s interests.
And political suicide for the SNP.
Time to strike while the iron is hot.
Cause a constitutional crisis which will force Cameron to abandon the EU referendum he doesn’t want anyway.
Damage both the blue and red Tories at the same time and get independence for Scotland.
We can never win by sticking to Westminster rules.
This poison chalice, that is the latest package of devolution from WM, should be at the centre of May’s election.
The SNP need to set out exactly what is wrong with it in straight forward terms, explain why it doesn’t come close to anyone’s aspirations … then let the Scottish voters pass judgement. If they are the next government, they will reject it. If unionist can cobble a government, they can pass it.
The SNP should seek a mandate to negotiate DevoMax ( as understood by everyone north of the Wall, and many south) within three months of May or hold IndyRef2.
How do we get this out to the public?
whats happened to inform scotland?
Scunnerbunnet where are you?
OT
if we decide to go for another referendum and Westminster refuses permission. what do we do? Go to the European Commission? United Nations? Thunderbirds? The A team?
Seriously who?
shape shifters
The Unionist quartet probably just sit on Skype every night sharing notes with each other.
Alex-Iain Cochranestall is a lickspittle and whore to his masters, in his delusional world; where he seems to think he is all important.
4 times the bullshit in one enTITy.
Oh forgot meant to say it’s one of the Unionist’s key concepts after all ‘pulling and sharing’.
[…] From man to pig and pig to man […]
Kennedy,
“what do we do? Go to the European Commission? United Nations? Thunderbirds? The A team?”
Little chance of success but we might stand a wee chance with the A team.
We are alone in the world, with the notable exception of our true friend Iceland.
And at least half of us are too stupid or too selfish. And many of us are tractors.
Our issue seems to be disseminating information to those who don’t find it on the Internet. The national excepted (and to a point the Sunday herald), there is limited msm exposure. I currently live abroad, but return to family in Perthshire when I can. There is a small A4 pamphlet, freely distributed in pitlochry, that is generally satirical in nature, but at times very pointed on local political issues. It is funded entirely by local business advertising. It is popular and well read. Can this be a platform to to reach more people with print? Predominantly local issues to get people reading, but with broader comment articles, or regular columns.
Hands up – I thought it was probably Cochrane, but could easily have been Hothersall. The sneering tone is right up there. Seems to me Massie tends to adopt a more smarmy style. I dont know Martin’s frothings as well, except that he calls people he disagrees with ‘scum’.
But, yeah, the usual raging yoon crap.
Brilliantly put together piece by the way.
O/T … I wish we would stop finding new oil discoveries, such a burden 😛
“These discoveries further reinforce our confidence that our North Sea business has the ability to sustain production volumes, extend the Forties and Beryl productive lives out beyond 2030 and consistently provide significant free cash flow back to the corporation,” Apache’s chief executive officer and president John J. Christmann, IV said.
link to petroglobalnews.com
As if we can be enraged any further.
Carol Monaghan MP ?@CMonaghanMP · 10m10 minutes ago
A bunch of Tories in dining room have just started humming the Imperial Masters tune. Is this really how they see themselves? #colonised
If you gave all the monkeys typewriters and locked them in one room
They’d still come up with Shite
Quoted from the ramblings of Duncan Horse-Hole:
It is time for the leaders of the former Yes campaigning parties to lead, and tell their followers that a new phase has begun.
A new phase has indeed begun: it’s called Taking back our Independence.
I think the best people to run a country are the people who live in that country.Its a perfectly sensible and reasonable view to hold.Most people around the world agree with me.Messers Martin,Hothersall,Cochrane and Massie have some strange ideas.
@ Rev does that re-education [through Punching] extend to Dugdale & Baillie,the gruesome twosome are more in need of it.
@ Dcanmore ave goat a spare Puncher an some file covers if you need them.
Kennedy says:
10 November, 2015 at 5:35 pm
OT
if we decide to go for another referendum and Westminster refuses permission. what do we do? Go to the European Commission? United Nations? Thunderbirds? The A team?
Seriously who?
Nah we just ignore the Hambone and co. and go ahead with our ref II anyway. What is Hambone and co. going to do … put troops on the streets to stop us voting?
Hambone and co. are up the creek without a paddle in my view on this. If he tries to stop a second ref. he will be left with egg all over his face, his little piggy friend will not be too amused about it either. 😀
The more Hambone and co. shout that Holyrood can NOT hold a second ref then the more folks in S******d will demand one through their MSP’s … we WILL hold one … the result will be ev en better than if he just kept quiet! 😀
Assorted UKOK red and blue toryboys have done their very worst, making Scottish May election interesting to say the least. Polls hold and we still won’t vote unionist red and blue toryboy, then what?
Imagine the amount of lying they’re all gearing up for, the vast massed ranks of UKOK sneaky shits and bullshitters. They’ll maybe have a UKOK vote anyone but Sturgeon Xmas day off.
Wow! That was near seamless.
Hive mind/synchronised fuckwittery, a new science or an Olympic event? You decide.
So while these heartless and thoughtless arses are playing at politics for their friends and chain tuggers, the rest of us will clean up the mess they aided in creating.
Regardless of what happens to the final bill in its immediate future, folk are suffering now and with Osborne set to unleash yet another wave of austerity measures, its time to keep in mind local charities and food banks at this time of year.
Any help we can give.
How come the hackneyed prose of Fraser Nelson, Torchuil Crichton, Alan Roden and Magnus Gardham can’t be mashed into this composite of steaming bullshit too?
Because I haven’t seen articles by them on the Bill yet.
Despite losing the referendum vote and feeling dejected I was encouraged by polling etc before the general election. When the results came in I was absolutely ecstatic as I considered this the first opportunity to see what the UK government would do when confronted by genuine MP’s representing Scotland all 55+1 of them.
In this game of chess this was our first ‘check’, I was looking forward to see how the UK would respond. They have responded as expected and more, some of the attitudes from Unionists is beyond belief at times. I have been lost for words.
I am however concerned because I just can’t get rid of this niggling worry that slippery Cameron is up to something.
EVEL the morning after was a bombshell for Labour/Libdems, it was Cameron bragging about how the Tories had stitched up those two political parties.
I just can’t shake the feeling that he is up to something again in respect to Scotland’s future.
Is he pushing for Scotland to become independent, but not through an agreed separation, he would then claim nothing he could do, not his fault?
Does he then say if you want to be independant, fine but then the UK expects this that and the other in return?
I’m increasingly suspicious that the Toories are deliberately provoking us into a premature new referendum. I think we need to stand firm and make sure that we have the support to win. But how flat footed these guys are!
O/T
Just this
link to scottishlabour.org.uk …
“Should the Scottish Parliament reject the Scotland Bill?”
A poll at:-
link to poll-maker.com
After I voted, It was showing YES – 58%, NO – 42%.
An aside… On the STV News just now, (re: the M9 car off the road) Colin Mackay stated TWICE that it took 3 days to respond to a 999 call.
He should be hauled over the coals for telling lies!
Remember any mitigation to compensate the loss of tax credits will be treated as income by HMRC. People will end up losing further social security income. Scottish Government gives and as usual Westminster takes.
Lesley-Anne says:
Nah we just ignore the Hambone and co. and go ahead with our ref II anyway. What is Hambone and co. going to do … put troops on the streets to stop us voting?
Hambone and co. are up the creek without a paddle in my view on this. If he tries to stop a second ref. he will be left with egg all over his face, his little piggy friend will not be too amused about it either.
The more Hambone and co. shout that Holyrood can NOT hold a second ref then the more folks in S******d will demand one through their MSP’s … we WILL hold one … the result will be ev en better than if he just kept quiet!
So we have our ref and win. Then what? Just tell them GTF?
Do we need an independent moderator? Or a grown up to help us? Or do we just declare UDI? I thought UDI was not a popular route for many people.
The Scottish Bill effectively sabotages the will of the people.
During the referendum two forces moved voters from No to Yes. Firstly the good work of campaigners, especially grassroots not necessarily affiliated to any political party. And, secondly, Unionist and WM behaviour.
That same attrocious behaviour has continued with little respite. To my mind its main effect will be to drive more voters to Yes. I believe the polls already show this.
Rantings like those above will achieve more for Scottish self determination than their authors intend. This, I am certain of!
Grouse Beater says:
“The Scottish Bill effectively sabotages the will of the people.”
The Scittish Bill is a crude attempt to sabotage the will of the people. Whether it is effective, I have my doubts. 🙂
Why would they be writing articles on The Bill?
I know they’re crap as political pundits,but what makes you think they’d be any better as TV critics?
@Lollysmum 6.13pm
O/T
Just read the list of ‘events’ to be organised- just how many activists do they think they have?
Unless walking in a line behind shoppers on the High Street counts as a ‘march’, these days? 😉
Ian H, I’m actually quite surprised by your questioning. On one hand you seem smart and on the other you suggest they might be scheming to give us independence.
My advice is that you go back to basics and try and understand how power works. Read Machiavelli or something, if it helps.
When you confront or challenge power, it doesn’t reason with you or try to come to an amicable resolution. It basically kicks your face in, every time. Examples are too numerous to mention but let’s apply it to our little context.
We challenged the British State. They need our milk and honey, more than anyone ever admits. Their response isn’t to appease us and keep us sweet. The truth is that wouldn’t work, there’s a direction of travel here. No. The response is to fix it so that we can never threaten them again and in doing so teach us a hard lesson.
The next stage in the plan is to dismantle Barnett. We will be left with a dramatically reduced budget, impoverished, and with no means to change anything, ever. That’s the plan and it’s going ahead. Rumour has it Barnett was discussed as early as today in a committee meeting.
With the permanence of the Scottish Parliament guaranteed, they can count on being able to use it as a cage for us going forward. In 10 years we will be cursing that parliament’s existence. And we won’t be able to do a thing.
Our skulls by then will be repeatedly bludgeoned with the notion that we chose this, we made our beds, and henceforth we need to live with the consequences. They’ll make sure the consequences are dire.
So much for the heady confidence of the wife who decided to stay, as JK Rowling put it. Anyone who knows how abusive relationships work, knows that when you stay you don’t get rewarded — you get punished for threatening to leave.
@Jim McIntosh
My preference is for the SG to reject the Scottish Bill in its entirety. The First Minister should come on television and explain to everyone why.
At the same time use the speech as a platform to announce that due to the WM governments failure to honour the Vow, the SNP will be standing next year on a manifesto that demands FFA from WM.
If we win a majority and they refuse to grant/negotiate FFA, to me that is a genuine trigger to call a further referendum. Probably around 2019 as we should be in control of most councils by then.
Sorted!
The SNP stood on a platform of FFA for the general election. I am not sure why they would stand for FFA next year, when they have already stood for it this year. What would be the difference? Only Westminster can legislate, for FFA, and there is really very little sign that they will ever do so.
I don’t think the SG can reject the Scotland Bill in its entirety. That would be a massive own goal imo. The unionists would say Scotland is not going to get any further powers because you have rejected all of the Scotland Bill. The SG could only do so in a moderate way. They cannot say it is all shit because they signed up to the Smith Commission.
Derek Bateman sums it up nicely:
Brain Doonthetoon – An aside… On the STV News just now, (re: the M9 car off the road) Colin Mackay stated TWICE that it took 3 days to respond to a 999 call.
He should be hauled over the coals for telling lies!
————
Aye, and John Mackay too in his headline, with the graphic behind him saying 101! You only need to google it to see every reference is of a 101 non emergency call. Reporting Scotland have obviously been telt after their scandalous lunchtime showing, “took three days to respond to a call about a fatal crash”. Much more like it tonight, though they did mention the initial call was about a “car accident” which isn’t strictly true.
Alan Roden had a double page spread in the (printed) Mail today. It could be edited into the above easily enough.
Off topic
Britannia TV Aberdeen pretty dire tonight. I wont go into the details but I assume they are all angling for jobs at the BBC the way they are carrying on.
“Almost the only positive on offer as far as voters are concerned is the power to mitigate Tory tax-credit cuts, but the incredible difficulty, complexity and cost of the move – now that Labour and the Tories have teamed up to block the devolution of the credits themselves – provides a strong case that the power isn’t worth the price.”
Even that small crumb has been wiped off the table by David Mundell’s sneering reply to Mhairi Black who asked him if any money given to people to mitigate the effect of tax-credit cuts would be counted as income. His reply was that Scotland would have to take a chance.
Or, in plain language, money given to mitigate tax-credit cuts would be counted as income, thus leading to a reduction in tax-credits, making the mitigation pointless.
So the power to mitigate doesn’t exist in reality.
Of course, Labour spent much of the past few weeks crowing about how they’d blocked tax-credit cuts so there’s obviously no need to mitigate them anyway. Unless Labour were lying – surely not?
Looks like we consensus among the majority of Scottish parties (by voter) ….
link to scottishgreens.org.uk
These guys are all just ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Putas’
I don’t often read their articles but when I do I get a good laugh!
Brilliant. I laughed out loud when I read the gotcha at the end.
Mitigation.
There are reserved matters and devolved matters. I am not convinced that it is Holyrood’s role to mitigate anything which is a reserved matter.
If a reserved matter is causing issues in Scotland which are at odds with the democratic will of Scots voters, and WM is ignoring this will, then I believe Holyrrod should seek to gain control of the reserved matter and change policy.
If this require independence, then so be it. Therein lies a sound solution!
As long as the majority of Scots want WM to have reserved powers, then those matters should be reserved.
The solution here is for the rest of us to campaign to convert enough people so the majority want no reserved matters! Then move forward to enact that.
Moving money out of other budgets or raising additional taxes to compensate for policies we have no control over is awful! It is, in its own way, taxation without representation.
I like the sound of SNP rejecting the bill followed by a televised speech from Nicola (praise be her name).
But no channel would show it. No news programme would make reference to the speech except RT. Which is fine for me as RT is now my favourite news channel. I suppose youtube is an option but we need maximum exposure.
How about a snap vote like Greece did rejecting austerity. Being a snap vote with no postal votes young yessers would skew the vote in our favour sending a message to wastemonster
Yessers know what’s happening and would be motivated to vote where as noers obviously don’t know what’s happening and would be less motivated to vote again skewing the vote in our favour.
Kennedy
There does appear to be an applicable legal framework but those rules don’t appear to apply to Scotland. Not if “Project Fear” is the measure. International Rescue may be required. F-A-B?
link to en.wikipedia.org
I think the SG must reject the Scotland Bill. Lets face it the MSM will report it as bad anyway so whats to lose.
NS could have a party political broadcast telling why its being rejected or at FMQ.
I also like the idea of a snap vote!
I can’t even bring myself to make a comment about it. The gloating triumphalist tone makes me want to puke. It makes me so incredibly angry and yet vindicated. I knew this was a crock of shit from the moment Brown announced it last year.
The other thing that busts my balls is the sheer belligerent imbecility of it. Can they not see how utterly demented the are. Can they not see just how angry this will make yes voters. Do they really think this will win any of us back.
I’ve stopped listening to these people. The only time I become aware of their “brain farts for union” is when I come here. You see I’ve already left the Union and the UK in spirit. I am no longer British and I am never coming back.
It’s easy to join all these articles together because they have all been ‘churned’ from the same source.
link to tinyurl.com
link to tinyurl.com
we are heading towards a penal colony. there is more punishment to come from the slave masters. as in the oldest profession.
The trick with the unionist media is to be useful to them, perhaps by some esoteric research or even analysis or contacts, that helps them to write articles or do programs that they want to do. But apart from that be steadily reasonable and polite.
So that when something is posted or communicated by that person or persons that they don’t like, they have the choice of deleting them or blocking them as appropriate. But they’d be aware that they antagonise that person and might lose their valuable input, input that helps them to put together some articles and, basically, helps to keep them in a job.
It’s a balance and curiously in my various browsing around I noticed one winger who seems to be very good at it. You know who you are – keep it up and thanks!
mealer
You didn’t even offer to get your coat. Poor show. 😉
So, do the SNP know what they’re doing? Are they as Iain McW seems to think, more than once, falling into a trap?
I don’t think so. From the moment Smith was announced they took ownership of Devo-Max as no other party wanted to do.. They were also well aware of the traps, the financial ones and others. I know this by direct means.
So they’ve been through Smith, fought the General Election, not on Independence or another Referenum, but on more powers, devo-max – FFA. To be strong for Scotland.
Well, they’ve tried their best, and are still trying, that’s what they were elected to do.
They’ve had more than a year to anticipate yesterday, and the ones back in June/July, they knew what was coming with Smith and Westminster.
So – what are their plans? When will we see your like again?
Soon, I think, soon. They’re in the present and the future, not the past.
Can we all not place posters (A4/5 or larger) on our windows:
LABOUR VOTED FOR THE TAX CREDITS CUTS IN SCOTLAND
On the 9th November 2015 The Labour Party Voted with the Tories To Prevent The Scottish Parliament Having Full Control Over Tax Credits.
The Westminster Parliament Would Not Guarantee That Those Affected By Tax Credit Cuts In Scotland Would Not Have Their Benefits Cut, Should The Scottish Government ‘Top Up’ Their Lost Tax Credits.
Make your own poster, this is just a suggestion. But we now need to expose their lies in whatever ways and means possible. Especially as the bastards are going to be on the Streets of Scotland this weekend:
‘On Saturday 14th of November we will be taking to the streets to campaign against the Tory Government’s tax credit cut which will affect up to 350,000 families in Scotland – leaving them £1,300 worse off on average. – See more at: link to scottishlabour.org.uk
Hypocritical Bastards
It could have been written by the regulars below the line on the Guardian too. It is remarkable how similar all the SNPbad stuff is. It is like painting by numbers and a finished one of these has about as much artistic merit as an “easy to paint Cotswold cottage in springtime” beginners set.
In a moment of madness I thought that there might be some support for things like the tax credits and equality. A tad galling to see that Labour are as duplicitous as ever. The Tories I expected little from. They are just Tories and we must remind everyone before May that they are no better than they should be.
Labour though are the pits.
Thanks for the link CameronB
@HandandShrimp
I think Corbyn had a real chance in Scotland, a danger to the SNP and pro-indy left. He should have got Labour to support a few of the amendments, probably knowing they wouldn’t get through anyway because of the Tory majority.
He blew it big time, and not only that, it seems likely he’s going to bond the SNP and left together again, in united opposition. All have tax credits in common, and so do many of what may well be, even more ex-Labour voters.
Kennedy
This is how we undermine BBC Labour in Scotland. 🙂
That’s cheating Stu. I was sure it was Cochrane.
@muttley
“The SNP stood on a platform of FFA for the general election. I am not sure why they would stand for FFA next year, when they have already stood for it this year.”
There is a huge difference. That was 59 individual MPs being sent to WM to represent their constituents in the UK parliament of over 630 MPs. They might have stood on a platform of FFA, but they might just as well have stood on a platform of free kilts for everyone in Scotland, for all the chance they had. Obviously we didn’t get FFA and we have no mechanism for forcing their hand at Westminster. It could be argued that even with 56 SNP MPs that isn’t a mandate for taking it any further anyway due to the flaws in the first past the post voting system.
Next year is different, MSPs are voted in in a more democratic fashion and can be said to more representative of the country as a whole. It can be pointed out that the voting system in place is one designed by them to ensure a democratic chamber.
If a majority of SNP members are elected on a platform of FFA it is quite clearly the will of the Scottish people and shouldn’t be denied. As I said earlier if this is not negotiated I believe we have the trigger for another referendum.
Y’know yesindyref2, it seems ‘incredible’ that they would vote with them, I can’t get my head around that, we are used to them abstaining, so’s they can continue their ‘pontious pilate’ schtick of washing their hands.
Why not abstain over this of all issues, in your view? Actually anyone have any comments about this?
All of you, if you haven’t joined up on twitter or facebook please do so as soon as possible and disseminate your views there as well as here. The more people we have writing Indy and SNP supporting stuff on social media the better. Wings and other bloggers produce plenty of excellent ammunition to attack Labour and Tories, and especially the lying hacks of the MSM. And to counter their lies and express the truth.
And please note:Twitter is EASY to set up and use.It just LOOKS difficult.
Angry as I am…..I will wait to see what Nicola comes back with
I don’t know K1. If it wasn;t for Rev highlighting it I wouldn’t have noticed, too used to there being 56 or similar aye, the rest nay.
What went through my mind is that it’s a united attempt by Tories and Labour to put the SNP in a difficult position. Which means Labour put getting at the SNP above the interests of Scotland. Which we all know to be true, but surely this is so blatant the voting public in Scotland will pick up on it?
That’s if they know, there has been a virtual media blackout on it, even inclduing the National which had Carmichael as its main topic, rather than this which is a far more imporatnt nail in Labour’s coffin, and the Union.
I don’t understand.
@K1
Because they made the pact before the GE. Remember how they went on and on about an alliance against the snp. Can’t remember exactly how they put it. We were such a threat to them, the old order and the new world order.
Actually I believe there has always been an alliance, the establishment. At least for the last 50ys or so.
Occasionally they let the people think they had a choice by having elections.
K1 says:
” it seems ‘incredible’ that they would vote with them, I can’t get my head around that, we are used to them abstaining”
All I can think off is a communications breakdown.
Labour in Scotland had begun their mitigation nonsense but hadn’t kept HQ up to speed.
Then at the WM vote, Labour HQ were running on the default thwart SNP where possible policy. They didn’t know or understand recent moves in Scotland and failed to recognise the own goal they were setting up.
Suppose it’s inevitable when Labour in Scotland only have one not very effective MP. MSPs do their thing. MPs (mainly English) do their thing. Each oblivious to the other.
Ref “Jim Mcintosh/Muttley” ,agree that FFA needs to be in manifesto
for 2016 .However I think that the SNP have to define this more
specifically , for the electorate in Scotland and Westminster to be in no doubt
what we are voting for .Also I feel that the issue of trident renewal
should also be included, with the SNP making it clear that
if Westminster votes for renewal , an SNP Scottish government will not sanction
trident to be based in Scotland ( with a referendum on this if
London ignores the majority wishes of the Holyrood parliament).
I believe the trident issue could well precipitate a “constitutional crisis”
between Edinburgh and London , and could be more significant than
“Devo Mundell” ?
The Scotland Bill that Labour and the Tories last night conspired to push through, without any of Scotland’s requested amendments, is a clear attempt to sabotage Scotland’s economy in the hope that the people of Scotland would turn on the SNP’s failure to control that planned and uncontrollable economy.
This will not work, the people have been studying the economy for the last three years and are up to speed. They are also acutely aware of the propaganda machine implemented by Westminster.
Holyrood will now block the Bill from being legislated and the people will rejoice.
Last night, independence took another few paces forward.
@K1
By the way I don’t actually mind not understanding or able to anticipate any plan, because if I can, then if Labour have any strategists or planners left, they could too.
I’m just going to presume, as cat says, that there is one.
@ K1 “Why not abstain over this of all issues, in your view? Actually anyone have any comments about this?”
Saw a comment (can’t remember where) that is the only logical explanation I have saw for why Labour did not abstain in this vote.
The comment was that this was all part of the Labour parties normal in-fighting, with the Westminster MP’s getting their revenge on Scottish Labour MSP’s for embarrassing them with the vote to not renew Trident.
It makes sense, as I remember the angry responses from several Labour MP’s and ex MP’s like Tom Harris.
A few people have mentioned that Kezia has went into hiding today…I wonder why?
There is a factor that’s noticeable with Labour in Scotland.
They believe themselves and their own rhetoric, rather that the blatant truth.
So let me get this right.
The Channel Islands and the Isle of Man will still have more powers than the Scottish Parliament!!
O/T
from link to thecourier.co.uk
“Her Majesty asked me about the changes I have seen in Parliament and obviously one of the things I said was that of course there are many more women now than when I was first elected.
“And she said ‘but also many more Scots’.”
Says it all really doesn’t it.
Given that, the real Labour Party has now thrown Slab under the bus (Again).
Would this not be the perfect time for the fragrant Ms Dugdale to create a pro independence Scottish Labour Party and position herself as a credible alternative in a Scotland free from Westminster duplicity.
Assuming of course, she still has aspirations to be a career politician.
We’re moving on. To the next election in May.
Catalonia Parliament passed legislation that says Unionist Spain interference and demands trying to make independence illegal are null and void.
Scotland will do the same against Westminster soon.
The bastards.
More converts to YES after Scottish Bill farce last night.
All going the right way from where I’m sitting.
Not long now.
Danny Dorling writes extensively on the issues of social inequality- an excerpt from one of his pieces;
‘In 2012 an estimated 3.5 million children were living in poverty. In 2013 the Fawcett Society estimated that a total of £14.9 billion had been cut from benefits, tax credits, pay and pensions, with 74 per cent of this being taken from women’s incomes. By 2014 they found that the inequality gap between women and men was actually rising.
Data from 2014 shows that two-thirds of all the welfare cuts in Scotland came from families with children. Lone parents have lost £1,800 a year, £400 more than families with two parents and more resources. But the cuts have been even deeper for the disabled, who have, on average, £2000 less to live on every year.
Because the UK government hid and delayed the publication of the statistics, academic researchers in England have been forced to use data passed to the European Statistical Office. That data shows that George Osborne misled parliament in March 2015 when he said people were better-off than they had been in 2010. Data collected across the whole of the UK actually revealed that living standards had fallen for all but the very richest.
Increasing numbers of people have reported falling behind with their rent or struggling just to pay fuel bills. Almost half the population cannot now afford to repair or replace their fridge or cooker immediately should one or the other break down. ‘Only the very richest (those who could make ends meet very easily) saw no perceived fall in their living standards.’
The whole article here and is very uncomfortable reading for the parties who have signed up to Mr Osborne’s austerity experiment.
link to discoversociety.org
In the distant past and decades before the implementation of the Beveridge Report the unemployed were paid ‘the dole’ every alternate 5 weeks. Families had to live off charity, sell whatever possessions they had, go hungry during the weeks without and with failing health-infectious diseases and malnutrition rampant.
So its back to the future with UKOK- zero hours contracts,diminished worker’s rights, benefit sanctions,the foodbank, TB rates in London the highest in western Europe and a dishonour to all the welfare campaigners throughout history who fought for a better life for future generations.
Labour clearly voted against tax credits for one thing.Their English membership. Corbyn had to show them Labour was strong enough to govern, and were willing to put down the natives up North who many English regard as scroungers from their country.The Scots will suffer as you do in England.
Besides,he has Dugdale spouting the opposite up here,and a compliant Unionist media ready to minimise or hide any deception,as you have seen from the lack of the story in the news.
The Scottish Government have now two options. The first is to reject the Bill entirely. The second is much more radical and carries degrees of risk ,but could destroy Labour for generations to come.
Can you guess what that is ?
Remember that this trap was very very carefully set for one Unionist purpose. To destroy the SNP as a credible political force.
For Corbyn it is a win,win situation.
link to news.stv.tv
Loads of “why don’t they shut up and use the NEW POWERS” but absolutely bugger all as to what their NEW POWERS are, shock.
Wonder why these conmen cant bring to themselves to say anything other usual stuff. Oh well, at least its a report on the NEW POWERS.
Very interesting Patrick, if that is even remotely the truth of this, then this shows an phenomenal lack of respect for Scotland’s electorate on an epic scale.
Tiit for tat Labour internal politics being played out at a very public level during one the most critical times in Scotland’s history.
It’s as if the ‘Union’ is not the priority at all, a complete fuck you to their MSP’s for ’embarrassing’ them at the WM level? I mean, WOW.
I agree about the alliance between the Tories and Labour, but in terms of winning back their ‘Scotland’ region for Labour. This has to be one of the most cackhanded approaches to ever have been employed by any reputable political party anywhere to regain votes.
350,000 families in Scotland to be affected by Tax Credit cuts by the Tories, and they vote With the Tories. Do they not know we can ‘watch’ them doing it Live on air.
No wonder there isn’t a peep from corpmedia and Labour today, they literally fucked themselves in Scotland.
Oh…I’m beginning to see a positive in all that crap yesterday.
They haven’t put the SNP in a difficult position by these ‘means’ as they no doubt intend to do.
What they may have done is quite literally destroyed some of their core support in Scotland with this move.
I think this has the capacity to really have done more to damage to them than we realise. We must capitalise on this as much as possible.
They know that we know that they screwed up massively. Keep on stating it:
Labour voted to bring harm to 350,000 families in Scotland because they were embarrassed by their Scottish MSP’s voting against Trident.
@Ian H says: 10 November, 2015 at 5:59 pm:
” … Does he then say if you want to be independant, fine but then the UK expects this that and the other in return?”
What United Kingdom would that be, Ian?
Legal facts are plain.
In 1284 both Wales and England’s legal system was, “Divine Right of Kings”. Under which legal system any monarch who defeated another monarch, married into another kingdom or inherited the crown of another realm, simply tagged their new acquisition onto his/her existing kingdom.
Thus when the King of England defeated The Prince of Wales, Dafydd ap Gruffydd in 1283, he sought to do just that but the Welsh fought back. So he made a, “Royal Ordinance”, titled, “The Statute of Rhuddlan”. In those days the monarch’s word was law. This Royal Ordenance was intended to settle the government of Wales after the execution of Dafydd ap Gruffydd.
English criminal law was to be introduced, but Welsh custom and law were to operate in civil proceedings. Six sheriffdoms were established in Anglesey, Caernarfon, Merioneth, Flint, Carmarthen, and Cardiganshire. In effect The Kingdom of England had legally annexed, (not united with), The Principality of Wales.
Then the Kingdom of England that had already defeated the Irish monarchy but had only declared themselves, “Lord of Ireland”, got fed up struggling to rule Ireland and had the Parliament of Ireland pass, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, in 1542.
In Scotland the death of Margaret left no clear successor. The Scots lords asked King Edward I of England to help sort out the problem. Edward called a series of meetings of claimants that included the illegitimate offspring of William The Lion and the three descendants of David of Huntingdon, (younger brother of Malcolm IV), John Balliol, John Hastings and Robert de Bruce (father of Robert The Bruce). Edward chose Balliol as he could manipulate him.
John Balliol was crowned king at Scone in 1292. Balliol was caught between the English King and the Scottish nobles who humiliated him. They called him, “Toom Tabbard”, (‘Empty Coat’). In 1292 the Scots took power into their own hands and allied with Philip of France. This began a clash with Edward who invaded Scotland in 1296. Edward stripped John Balliol of his power, removed the Stone of Scone to Westminster, (we got it back in 1996 – 700 years later).
Balliol was imprisoned in the Tower of London and freed in 1299 to go into retirement in Normandy where he died around 1313/14.
Meanwhile after Bruce killed the Red Comyn and Edward had the Pope excommunicate the only living heir to the Scots crown and thus, (under Divine Right), everyone in Scotland, the Scots sent the Pope the Declaration of Arbroath and the Pope, (head of all Christendom), accepted it in 1320. This set the basis for Scots law as it now stands and declared Scotland an independent Kingdom. That basis of Scots law is that the people, not the monarchy, are legally sovereign.
Then in 1603 the Scottish King James VI inherited the Crown of the three country Kingdom of England but could not form a United Kingdom by adding the English Kingdom to his existing realm because he was NOT sovereign in Scotland. There was no Union of the Crowns in 1603, but James moved to England where he was sovereign. Hence his title of King James I of England and VI of Scotland.
In 1688 the English Parliament had their Glorious Revolution and deposed the monarch that also wore the Scottish Crown, (James II of England & VII of Scotland).
However, as the two kingdoms were still independent, they could not legally end his rule in Scotland. Thus began the Jacobite Uprisings that lasted almost 40 years after the forced Treaty of Union. There were, and are, ONLY two signatories partners in the Union and the Status Quo Ante can only legally be a return to two independent Kingdoms if Scotland leaves.
Think of it like the best known bipartite union – marriage. If one marriage partner divorces the other then the status quo ante is they BOTH return to being independent people. You couldn’t have one still married to the other and one independent. So when the only two partners in the Union part there cannot be a United Kingdom.
It is a nonsense to claim that after Ireland partitioned that it formed a new Kingdom in the Union for all Ireland had been part of the English Kingdom since 1542. the 1800/1 acts only recognised the change of names.
Hang on.
Unionist commentators taking pleasure in the prospect of people in Scotland facing considerable hardship in the near future?
Perhaps they should seek psychiatric help.
A little googling throws up links to many articles on the “politics of grievance”. Seems that civil wars are driven by either greed or grievance. It would be silly to complain about Scottish greed given our give-away culture. But grievance will do as well. Some of the Westminster spads busy writing press releases must have degrees in this stuff. John McTernan too.
Here’s a fairly typical example from before the referendum which offers a few ironic moments:
link to tinyurl.com
Some great comments. I share everyone’s anger.
The SNP response to the the Scotland Bill debate last night will be interesting. Whether or not Holyrood should reject the Scotland Bill is not really some kind of party political or tactical question- John Swinney will look at what is put forward and if it is a non-starter which disadvantages the Scottish people he can only reject it.
For us to end up with a Scottish Government being held responsible for mitigating ideologically driven tory cuts without the ability to cut areas like defence spending, our contributions to massive English infrastructure spending, without the levers required to grow the economy and while our energy sector, renewable and conventional are kneecapped is leaving us in an impossible situation.
The initial devolution settlement was sensible in that whole areas were devolved and whole areas were reserved. At this rate the legacy we leave the next generations (if we stand back and let this rain of pish wash over us) is a complete dog’s breakfast of governance in Scotland.
I had hoped our generation would go through the disruption of breaking free and my bairns and their bairns could begin their adult lives in a normal country.
The question is what to do now. The unionists can enjoy their moment of triumph in the appalling charade we witnessed last night. Let them gloat. In creating an unworkable settlement and telling the people of Scotland to suck it up they have misjudged the people of Scotland. Genuine concessions and a workable settlement could have put our struggle to bed for a decade or more.
We have yet to see the house of “lords” eviscerate the bill further as it almost certainly will. For Mone and co to have more influence over the devolution settlement than 56 of 59 MPs (ie any as opposed to none) is more than a humiliation- it is a fucking outrage.
Labour are finished after the tax credit fiasco- that is a trump card the SNP will play from now until the election- it is the labour party’s tuition fee u-turn. We’ll crucify them for it.
Personally I hope we get Carmichael’s scalp in court and the SNP replaces him, the leadership rejects the Scotland Bill or finds ways to get round it.
Its a little early for civil disobedience and talk of UDI but forcing a full blown constitutional crisis? The trident vote is the opportunity.
Several people have commented to me that Cameron and his chums may be cheating the people of Scotland – but this might not hurt his voting base.
However he is also cheating his own base by pretending to negotiate with Europe when in reality he is only trying to find out what the European Establishment will give him – before making that his ‘red line’ negotiating position.
This is now becoming so obvious that he may be setting himself up for a backlash – not from Scotland for whom he has nothing but contempt – but his own right wing base – from whom he also obviously has nothing but contempt too – but has been unwise enough to show it.
If they go for him, then Scotland may benefit as they tear themselves apart in Brexit.
A lifetime of studying human behaviour has taught me many things about the way situations cause us to react.
We are reacting quite normally to a particular situation. It is a mixture of frustration, anger, pride, helplessness and confusion.
Just now we are looking for direction and finding it in each other ,rather than from the leadership of the Party.
This is the time for them to galvanise their support by showing true leadership and direction to all of us trying to achieve independence.
We have seen a concerted effort by the Media ( who I believe are being briefed), to now try and force the SNP down a road of accepting these poisoned powers. This is all too orchestrated to be mere co incidence,as you can see by the example of the Rev above in compiling the letters into one diatribe.
If our opponent is this organised,then we must be too. I hope the SNP are giving feedback to their branches, and maintaining a strong message to one and all.
Some autonomous regions around the world, note when I say yes to welfare and taxation that is yes to all of it, not some of it (the sources for this specifically say only defence, foreign policy and or monetary policy are reserved). Also note that the People’s Republic of China allows these specially administered areas to even have their own currencies ( though that is for pretty obvious reasons)
health educ welfare tax legal currency defence foreign
Greenland yes yes yes yes yes no no no
Falklands yes yes yes yes yes sort of no no
Gibraltar yes yes yes yes yes sort of no no
Hong Kong yes yes yes yes yes yes no no
Macau yes yes yes yes yes yes no no
for comparison – a federal system;
swiss canton yes yes yes yes yes no no no
(Yes to laws only at municipal level)
So we can clearly see the powers allegedly to be devolved to Scotland as part of the Scotland Bill currently traversing it’s shameful way through Westminster are in no way better than these autonomous regions, falling significantly short on the welfare and taxation areas, and I’m pretty sure Greenland has broadcasting along with Gibraltar and the Falklands. Retaining 80% or more of taxation powers and welfare powers is not creating the most devolved area in the world.
Can someone of the ‘Scotland is British’ loyalist brigade please come on here and tell me why tonight, the state broadcaster announced to the entire UK that ‘Scottish’ MPs were voting against Sunday Opening in England?
Surely if ‘Scotland is British’ then there is no such thing as a ‘Scottish MP’ in Westminster; that in Westminster there are only British MPs. No?
So what’s the problem with the Tories objecting to British MPs from a particular part of Britain voting on British legislation in the British parliament? Why were these MPs identified on the BBC news as ‘Scottish MPs’ when they are never identified by their particular nationality when they are members of the three main establishment parties voting in the UK parliament?
And why does queen Brenda now think there are a lot more Scots in Westminster when, compared to pre-1999 there are actually now considerably less Scottish MPs in Westminster?
Someone please explain it to me.
Ta.
Just a wee outside the box oment here folks so do NOT panic! 😛
AS we all know Hambone and co. are looking to get a third runway built at Heathrow. Now as I understand it this will be debated etc in the House of Commons and in committee.
However, the Famous 56 will NOT get a look in on this topic at Westminster. EVEL will apparently come into play with regards to Heathrow.
Don’t panic though peeps WE will still have the privilege of PAYING our share for this new runway!
Here we go again .Do these English anti Scottish rags ever think of printing a full and honest story,or is this against their principles?It’s dig into the Scottish electors with nothing but insults.Is this not supposed to be a BRITISH national newspaper with fair coverage of varying opinion.Tell that to the Marines as the saying goes!!
Suggested caption for your picture:
“Come on Mr Cameron! Fair’s fair, it’s your turn now!”
@Lesley – Anne,
Piggy bank broken in anticipation of contribution.
@ Hamish100: “So let me get this right.
The Channel Islands and the Isle of Man will still have more powers than the Scottish Parliament!!”
Yes, good point, and possibly Northern Ireland, I think they have the right to pack up the Union, maybe even without a Referendum, built into the Northern Ireland Act.
Might be worth building a table with a list of “powers”, columns, tick for the parts that have the power, cross for those that don’t.
@Lesley-Anne
They will bleed us dry, been doing it for years. Not even trying to hide their contempt any more as was obvious from last night’s farce.
link to christina-mckelvie.org
Jim McIntosh at 5.24
But we nearly won INDEPENDENCE last year. So why should we lower our aims and go for FFA? The unionists would love to have us negotiating FFA for a decade.
Apart from which the only complete FFA is independence. Leaving sovereignty with the UK, leaving defence and foreign affairs with the UK is not and cannot be FFA because all these have financial implications over which we have no control.
FFA,devo Max,Federalism are all complicated impediments and work for the opposition. Logical, uncomplicated independence is much more sensible.
Which reminds me. Wasn’t it the case that a part of the 1997 Devolution settlement for Scotland was that Scotland’s representation at Westminster was reduced from 72 MPs to the present 59 MPs?
If so then surely with the advent of EVEL we can expect a similar 18% reduction in the number of English MPs?
How does that then affect the Tory majority?
@Kennedy says: 10 November, 2015 at 6:16 pm:
” … Do we need an independent moderator? Or a grown up to help us? Or do we just declare UDI? I thought UDI was not a popular route for many people.”
Who mentioned UDI, Kennedy?
Not Lesley-Anne for sure. As the people of Scotland, not either the Queen of Scots and hence not Her Majesty’s Parliament of her bipartite United Kingdom, then if a majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland mandate either our parliamentary representatives of either or both parliaments to withdraw from the Union it is a perfectly legal thing to do.
The legal fact is that the term, “United Kingdom”, designates a United Royal Realm which factually includes also the three non-UK government Crown Protectorates.
There is a distinct legal difference between, “The United Kingdom”, and, “Her Majesty’s Parliament of her United Kingdom”. in that the latter does NOT include Her Majesty’s Crown Protectorates.
Her Majesty is Queen of Scots but also Queen of England and, as a Kingdom, that latter includes the three countries of England, Wales, (annexed in 1284), and what remains of the Kingdom of Ireland, (all Ireland was annexed in 1542).
‘Scots’ is being introduced into the lexicon of our speech as meaning ‘insurgents’ when spoken in these contexts.
The Labour party had representatives from Scotland and you’re correct Proud Cybernat when you say that no one mentioned their nationality when speaking about any kind of legislation going through parliament when they were in the UK parliament.
So it can only be further proof if any were needed that this is a full blown attack on the representatives of Scotland’s electorate. They are attempting to rouse the Unionist Scots/English against the Nationalists Scots.
We must divert from this and keep the focus on Tory austerity, Labour’s collusion, and that Scotland is a Country who democratically elected our MP’s with the highest vote share in recent memory of any country on these Isles. They are a legitimate party, with a mandate voted for by Scots. They have a duty to represent all constituents within their wards, just as any other party’s MP’s do.
And because, they are the Bastards Broadcasting Conduit.
David Agnew, whoever you are, for the first time today you came up with words I could relate to.
As for Scotland and the SNP, I’m losing my patience. There seems to be something in the collective psyche of the people here that makes them good at taking shit.
Politics is full of paradoxes. Take Labour, they had roots in representing the poor who in turn they historically depended on for support. Suddenly it seemed to be in their interest to keep people poor because they could count on votes from poor people. Or so they thought.
I fear that the SNP is going through a similar process. With roots in representing those who aspire to Scottish independence, maybe they want to keep us aspiring to independence rather than ever actually achieving it.
The question of what would happen to the SNP if independence was ever realised, like the question of what would happen to Labour if the poor became rich, must play on their minds more than it plays on ours.
Touching to see the nawbags are inspired by Nazi collaborator, anti-Scottish bigot and all-round racist P.G. Wodehouse: “It’s not difficult to distinguish between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine.” Nice.
Had to have a wee laugh to myself watching the tory backbenchers’ reaction to Cameron’s list of EU reforms.
“Is that it? Is that the sum total of the government’s position in this renegotiation?”
“The renegotiation amounts to no more than tinkering around the edges.”
“This is pretty thin gruel- much less than people had come to expect.”
No further comment required.
Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, silly name, actual real world non swivel eyed loony tory stuff-
link to telegraph.co.uk
Hope Kevrage isn’t watching but 2020 looks like $80-100+ per barrel of NOT Scots oil, as Middle-east currently forces US shale oil out of business.
We were so tragically unlucky to vote NO Thanks for rule by UKOK toryboy world though
“The bigger picture of global energy is that every assumption is being overturned with breathtaking speed. Renewables made up half of all new electricity generation worldwide last year – led by China – and will account for 60pc of all fresh investment in power over the next quarter century, a $7 trillion blitz of expansion.
Renewables will overtake coal to become by far the biggest source of electricity by 2040, with wind power surging by 300pc to 1,400 gigawatts (GW) and solar jumping 500pc to more than 1,000 GW as green energy competes increasingly on pure cost. Subsidies are falling fast and will be insignificant in developing economies by 2030 ”
link to theguardian.com
@heedtracker
Spotted this earlier this evening regarding renewables
link to christina-mckelvie.org
O/T
Carmichael seriously expects us to believe that for the five weeks he was refusing to admit his guilt it never entered his saintly head he was also protecting his personal reputation and swinging the Orkney & Shetland election in his favour?! Pull the other one!
BBC referring to tragic A9 crash refer to an emergency call when it was a non emergency 101 call.
When will they ever report stuff acurately
@Dcanmore 5.49
OT
Encouraging, if I get some time tomorrow I’ll see how the numbers stack up r.e. flow / recoverable.
Revenues would be better coming to us as we all know….
Forties find should come through existing infrastructure, Beryl will be tankered in.
Good old Apache, cutthroat, but they can find that oil!
Just heard Jeb Bush use the word grievance on Fox to describe Obama and Clinton. Heard that word a lot describing the SNP from all the different brands of Tories and the MSM over the last few days. Must have been a memo from a “Linton Crosby” type who want to keep that message out there.
@CameronB
Agreed CameronB. I’m already in the choir but I do have to learn some new songs.
We are Wings.
I would have said Z.
“Fud, Moane, or any other wukfit associated with the unionists.”
The only thing they say that makes sense is,
INDEPENDENCE.
Tick Tock.
Initially this sounds a bit crazy I know, but if the SNP wanted to toss a huge spanner into the mix … .
Having voted through the Sack O’ Poison act, they’d win a majority in H2016 and then refuse to form a govt.. Instead form a majority “abstention” (?!) in Holyrood.
… There you go Kezia, your turn, have a go! You’ve now got your most powerful of all possible powers, let’s see what you can do with them!
We’ll just be abstaining on everything in the meantime and marveling at the braw job you’re going to do. You know, like the one you’ve been telling us about. You show us hen … .
And do just that. Let her/them get on with it.
– To ask the F why she hasn’t been able to fully reverse the Tory slashing? It was a full reversal you were standing on wasn’t it?
– To ask the FM what happened to her APD magick money tree? Were yon WM magick beans no
– To ask the FM why SNHS waiting lists are the only things growing under her governance?
(From Rev’s Twitter)
For handy reference. Clause 18 that relates to devolving Tax Credit to the Scottish Parliament, in the Scotland Bill. From yesterdays debacle:
The amendment from Dr Eilidh Whiteford (SNP)
This new Clause devolves to the Scottish Parliament the power to make provision for child tax credit, and working tax credit.
Brought up.
Question put, That the Clause to be added to the Bill.
The House divided:
Ayes 56, Noes 477.
56 SNP MP’s voted for this amendment which would have given the Scottish Parliament the Power to abolish Tory Tax Credit Cuts.
The Labour Oppostion party voted with the Tory Government, to prevent ANY Scottish Government whether the incumbent SNP or any future Government in Scotland to abolish Tory Tax Credit Cuts.
@Dave McEwan Hill says:
10 November, 2015 at 9:59 pm
“But we nearly won INDEPENDENCE last year.”
You miss my point, I don’t believe they will give ever us FFA.
We almost won but almost isn’t good enough, so we need another referendum. There are several triggers that we could justifiably say are valid reasons for holding one, with or without WM say-so. Probably:
1. Brexit (probable referendum 2016)
2. Trident (successor renewal debate 2016)
3. FFA (SNP make it main plank of manifesto in 2016)
One trigger would be enough, but next year we could have a perfect storm when all three of these line up in our favour.
We start off with a base of 45%, if we cant get over 55-60% with all three of these arguments and over a year of Tory cuts in our favour we may as well give up.
@ David McDowell re Carmichael
And also, I find it interesting that there is even a discussion about the difference between political lie, personal lie and so on.
This is a real red herring designed to distract.
The fact is that Carmichael lied about his knowledge of the leak, and kept that lie in operation until after the election.
It’s not a question of whether it was a political lie or not.
The point is that he is, and confesses himself to be, a liar.
That is a statement of his character. His person. It’s not relevant what matter he was lying about, but only that his character reflects that of a person who knowingly deceived and perpetrated lies to a number of different bodies.
“… the MP had lied about his role to Channel 4 News and the Daily Record; misled the first stage of a Cabinet Office leak enquiry; misled Liberal Democrat officials and his then party leader, Nick Cleggand that he had acknowledged putting misleading information into his statement to the court.
Carmichael only admitted to a senior Cabinet Office civil servant that he had authorised the leak on 12 May, five days after holding on to his seat by a very narrow margin.”
He admits he’s a liar. That’s a statement of his character. He went to the election as a person of disreputable character.
Not fit to hold Office.
Let’s see how the judges read it. Should be interesting.
I am still pretty shocked overall, at what happened within the last 24 hours. It really does seem that unionists are hell bent on helping us win the next independence referendum. Either that, or they are exceptionally stupid..Hmm.
What truly mystifies me, however, is the Labour party. I honestly cannot fathom some of the ways they voted last night. And then there is abortion. I cannot find anything so remotely as offensive to Scots, as an English Labour MP standing up to suggest that it might be bad for Scots to determine abortion law.
Has Yvette never given any thought to the fact that Westminster has religious bishops as part of its legislature, it is dominated by men, and has a male prime minister. The Scots Parliament on the other hand, has no superstitious religious officers deciding laws, it has a gender balanced cabinet, a female leader of Labour and the Tories, and has a female First Minister.
Over the past 24 hours, Labour has just destroyed any remote hope it may have had of gaining seats in the May parliamentary election.
O/T
And in total contrast to what is happening in ukok, Portugal. The three left wing parties have joined in a coalition to get the right wing austerity loving party out at last. I just saw that on the online news site I am quite into at the mo, ‘Common Dreams’. It is based in Portland in the US, seems some good reports from around the world though. Not sure how to archive sorry.
I remember years ago reading in the Graun how Portugal had foodbanks for their very poor as there were no jobs, shocking I thought. Hmmm. That was in the day when the Graun seemed genuinely lefty, oh what a fool I was!
Powers are devolved to Parliament, Not the shade of government, which is open to change, obviously.
Labour are conceding any further devolvement of Powers from Westminster because they don’t foresee ever being the Government of Scotland. Ever.
The Labour Party just admitted to Scotland that they would rather see the people of this country suffer than support the electorate of this country.
Labour are punishing Scotland for voting SNP. All of Scotland.
It isn’t only Yes supporters who receive Tax Credits.
Wake. Up. No. Voting. Labour. Voters. They. Are. Using. You.
Hey! I thought that was a really good read. Better than average for the ra-ra britscotish press.
Just goes to show it’s all down to the editor.
On a more serious note, were they all working from the same press release? Looks awful like it.
Nana says:
10 November, 2015 at 10:31 pm
@heedtracker
Spotted this earlier this evening regarding renewables
It is a staggering tragedy Nana. But from the red and blue toryboy jock baiters up there, to a respectable 2020 North Sea oil barrel, price, Scottish wind and tidal power aint running out, so 2020 Referendum 2 anyone:D
Although for the balance, could Scotland afford same UKOK green subsidies, having accepted UKOK stuff like debt share, for stuff Scotland will never benefit from, like Heathrow runway 3, Chinese nuke power, HS2, 3, Crossrail 2 etc
Crossrail 2 is just one freaking tube tunnel but they forecast
link to crossrail2.co.uk
Why Scots bottled it last year, only a big lying slob like Bliar MacDougall can really tell us.
MJS Dundee
It is a lovely idea but a little too dangerous. In the style of a flight simulator can we knock up a Scottish Government simulator so that when Kezia is playing with the controls and the machine starts shaking, lights start flashing and warning alarms start to sound the rest of the country is not on the same plane.
Just a wee heads up for some future viewing folks … in 2016! 😀
link to independent.co.uk
Now if a lot of local small towns and villages go “offshore” I wonder how long it will take before wee Ozzy closes the loopholes being used. I’m betting you will not seem him for smoke! 😀
@K1
The Red Tories and the Blue Tories have joined forces to kick the SNP.
The Blue Tories are arrogant ba$tard$, but they are the government and will fight to demonstrate their power.
The Red Tories are lackeys and won’t miss an opertunity to follow their masters and kick the SNP.
We know they are one and they know we know they are one. No need for pretence. The days of left against right are gone. They are both right wing.
Both colours of Tories refuse to acknowledge Scotland as a nation and prefer to think of Scotland as a colony in their wonderful empire. This colony has the temerity to stand up for itself and must be put back down, hard. To think again essentially.
The display of power is more important than the facade of democracy. If they don’t stamp out this Jock rebellion once and for all they may lose their jewel in the crown colony.
This is why, in my opinion, the Red Tories have voted instead of abstaining.
Nice work Rev.
Sounds like the MSM are back on the same song sheet at least, if not the Labour party.
But I guess they talk and plot together more than SLAB does with London Labour.
Re; R Peffers@10pm
Eh? “Her majesty is queen of scots”, you say. No, she is queen of UKOK.
sorry didn’t get past about half way, I did try quite hard and usually make the effort. I did keep thinking ‘got to read all of this’ but it ground me down.
I would imagine even the most hard headed of sNP haters gave up after a few paras as well having decided “this chaps all right.”
oh… just read the bit under the quiz, you scamp you!
although if it hadn’t been multi choice I’d probably have gone for Terry Kelly, maybe you’ve discovered his technique.
I was looking for verification of Scottish Sovereignty, googling it brings up many Unionist hacks with the usual denegration of Scotlands rights.
Well I finally found what I was looking for, here is a snippet-
“Much oil was burned in the UK media about the impending embarrassment for Scotland and the humbling of its pretendy parliament. Yet something strange happened – the UK Supreme Court found for the Scottish Parliament. Hidden away in their judgement was the statement that it had no power to set aside any bill, statute or act of the Parliament of Scotland where that bill expressed the clear will of the (sovereign) people of Scotland.”
Where did I find it? right here and it is well worth a read.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Brilliant!
link to theguardian.com
This lot have more than their fair share of jock baiters too, but they are displeased tonight.
“For another, this separatist party used to claim a “self-denying ordinance” against meddling in “England-only” matters. True, the complexities of the Barnett funding formula have always provided for a bit of ambiguity and opportunism in determining territorial scope.”
Personally I prefer my jock baiters to be as swivel eyed UKOK loony as Massie, Hothersausage, the union jack draped fart bags in Pacific Quay and the torygraph, to all The Graun shills. At least no one is any doubt just how red and blue tory the Telegraph and BBC toryboys actually are.
While most of the MSM journos may have been (willingly?) deluded at one time, surely many of them by now have realised that they are actually the bad guys here propping up a Britain who have become one of the bad guys on the world stage, albeit as a bit player.
Robert Louis at 11.08
Any particular reason why you introduced the offensive “superstitious” into an otherwise excellent post or perhaps you didn’t realise that over half of Scotland’s RCs voted YES and almost half of the other Christians?
Don’t all laugh at once here. I’d hate to think I was the cause of the planet lurching uncontrollably nearer the sun. 😀
ScotlandTonight Verified account
?@ScotlandTonight
.@DavidCoburnUKip tells #scotnight he thinks he’ll lead the ‘Out’ campaign in Scotland in the EU referendum 😀
@MJS Dundee
Ooh, I like that, just a pity it wont happen, but I still like it
David Cameron, is this what cutting the tax credits for UK citizens was all about in the first place:
Restricting EU migrants’ access to in-work benefits such as tax credits?
How many Scots wanting Home Rule not Independence will be aghast Labour Party were just kidding about a Federal Union
If you ask me there is a new gap for a Scottish Home Rule Party
This article is about where I stand
link to news.stv.tv
Good to see that Labour’s M.P.’s are standing true to Labour’s founding principles:
Party of the people, for the people, by the people.
Alternatively, as a certain Mr. Orwell may have thought of writing once, before he got into his pig thingy. 😉
Everyone is equal … except some of us are MORE equal than others! 😀
link to telegraph.co.uk
O/T – I was talking to a non-Winger today who happened to hear a ‘Morag from Dumfries” set Kay with an E and Duncan Hotherstall straight about last night until the volume of her call faded mysteriously (you remember the technical issues which the BBC often experiences with YES/SNP guests).
Morag, was that you?
Slightly O/T
This below is a quite useful explanation of international law and the UN charter. It indicates that those regimes that pretend to have a power or a veto over any region or nations right to self determination is in conflict with international law. The assumption of such a veto is in fact a bluff. Legal language is used to confuse the actual constitutional position and the “law” is invoked in support of the status quo in many cases and this confuses many people.
A law of course is only valid as a law if the majority of those affected by it agree with it. Were these fatuous legal arguments to have any moral or actual validity we could still have the Ottoman Empire and the Austro Hungarian Empire etc and England might still be under Roman rule.
The history of the world is the history of countries building, emerging, dismantling, renewing and separating. We do not have to ask the UK for the right to rule ourselves. It’s a legal bluff
“The right of nations to self-determination (from German: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker) is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms. It states that nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no external compulsion or interference which can be traced back to the Atlantic Charter, signed on 14 August 1941, by Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States of America, and Winston Churchill, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who pledged The Eight Principal points of the Charter. The principle does not state how the decision is to be made, or what the outcome should be, whether it be be independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or full assimilation. Neither does it state what the delimitation between nations should be—or what constitutes a nation. In fact, there are conflicting definitions and legal criteria for determining which groups may legitimately claim the right to self-determination.
On 15 December 1960 the United Nations General Assembly adopted United Nations General Assembly Resolution 1541 (XV) under titled Principles which should guide members in determining whether or nor an obligation exists to transmit the information called for under Article 73e of the United Nations Charter in Article 3 provided that inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence. To monitor the implementation of Resolution 1514 in 1961 the General Assembly created the Special Committee referred to popularly as the Special Committee on Decolonization to ensure decolonization complete compliance with the principle of self-determination in General Assembly Resolution 1541 (XV), 12 Principle of the Annex defining free association with an independent State, integration into an independent State, or independence as the three legitimate options of full self-government compliance with the principle of self-determination.
“National aspirations must be respected; people may now be dominated and governed only by their own consent. Self determination is not a mere phrase; it is an imperative principle of action. . . . “
bookie from hell
The “gap” for a Scottish Home Rule Party is known as the bin. The concept is in the past
We can chunter on here as much as we like. Nobody is listening other than us and visitors to this site.
Find a way to impart information / backed up with valid data. Use your initiative. We’re not a bunch of total ignoramuses … far from it.
And hey ho Stu you put together the Wee Blue Book. Help us out now by putting together a leaflet outlining what’s going on now / our wealth and so on. We’ll download, print off and deliver.
LIVING IN A UNIONIST SHITSTORM – Competing with the BBC/ITV DR/Herald
The Scotland Bill fiasco illustrates a communications void between the Scottish Government and the Independence Movement.
The 1.7 million Yes voters want to know, directly and quickly, what the SG / SNP take on events like these is, not least to counter balance the distorted views being spread by Unionist broadcast and print media.
Surely an SNP ‘statement’ in print or on video, could be produced by the SG as and when needed, and circulated via the leading Independence groups on social media. The effect would be that for an instant pro-Independence report on any matter occurring, we would need only to turn to Wings, Bella, WGD, Lallands, Derek Bateman or any of the others, to get an immediate explanation of what is going on.
It is absurd that we should have to go to Unionist TV to get the latest Independence news – if it’s covered at all.
At present, it appears as if Stu is doing this job single-handedly.
Loads of brilliant posts on here tonight as per usual but hat off to … Phronesis at 8:54 pm.
Tam Jardine says:
10 November, 2015 at 9:30 pm
For us to end up with a Scottish Government being held responsible for mitigating ideologically driven tory cuts without the ability to cut areas like defence spending, our contributions to massive English infrastructure spending, without the levers required to grow the economy and while our energy sector, renewable and conventional are kneecapped is leaving us in an impossible situation.
This is it exactly.
The only major tax power devolved is income tax, and it is such a blunt tool. We need a full suite of tax powers with the ability to target them to certain sectors.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
11 November, 2015 at 12:12 am
bookie from hell
The “gap” for a Scottish Home Rule Party is known as the bin. The concept is in the past
I beg to differ
Devolution is the bin concept of the past
Home Rule FFA is a viable option
@bookie from hell
Apart from his rather silly rant about the Nationalists which at least keeps the party unfaithful onside, Daisley’s article is a very useful one. I hope it gets well read.
@Dave McEwan Hill
From the Falklands hoohah about 3 years ago I looked up the Special Committee on Decolonization and from memory it’s quite ineffective and basically ruled by Latin America, not generally accepted as having any “authority”. Also Scotland wouldn’t be classed as a colony, but the principle should in theory be the same.
Holyrood will reject the Scotland bill.
Try again, middle England.
@bookie from hell
Basically my submission to Smith was that the then current state of Devolution was stable and balanced, that FFA would be stable and balanced, and the Commission should look at anything in-between to make sure that whatever set of powers and revenues were devolved would also be stable and balanced.
Basically speaking, it’s clear my submission was ignored.
I like the idea of a further referendum to find out exactly what extra powers Scots want devolved.
Then there are no excuses. Remember the Tories wanted to avoid any question on Devo-Max all along.
I understand the Scottish government can run a ‘consultative’ referendum on extra powers.
It would be good if they could even run it at the same time as the Holyrood elections, and make it clear the SNP is running on a platform for these extra powers.
Would it be possible to run an extra question on the same day as the Holyrood elections ?
Do people agree with the proposals for extra devolved powers?
YES or NO?
Or with a full list of extra powers to be devolved and multiple choices of YES or NO.
The SNP needs to keep the constitution in focus at the Scottish elections. Realistically, I think independence is on hold until 2020 or 2021 .. until another 5 years of younger voters are on the register.
But an SNP/SNP vote needs to be seen as a vote for more powers in the meantime.
If further powers are reasonable, then we might even get Labour support, or split them down the middle. Or show them up as siding with the Tories again.
bookie from hell at 12.45
Home Rule FFA is a viable option – to keep us tied up in complicated constitutional arguments for ten years.
We nearly won independence last year. Why lower our aim?
This would be like the manager of a football team that had just come a close up second in the league saying “Right lads,we’ll go for good third next year”
Politics is fairly straightforward. As soon as you moderate your demand you get half of it. If we move strongly for independence we will get various devos as concessions. If we go for any devo or FFA we’ll get the Smith commission.
FFA is a misnomer anyway. There is no such thing without independence
yesindyref2 at 12.46
It’s the first paragraph describing the inalienable right of self determination which is critical
No more pigs dears.
yesindyref2 says:
“Basically speaking, it’s clear my submission was ignored.”
Snap!
99% of submissions were ignored!
OT
Bit tricky looking at the oil industry with an unbiased e’e but if you look at the business section of the Herald rather than the
anti-SNPdsoom and gloom we’re all gonna die and Scotland’s a failed economy politics section, there’s been quite a bit of activity in the North Sea, and it looks like the new regulator is starting to have an effect. Also need to look at in this case Sky News to see that Saudi expect the oil price to get back to normal (whatever that is).@yesindyref2:
Apart from his rather silly rant about the Nationalists which at least keeps the party unfaithful onside, Daisley’s article is a very useful one. I hope it gets well read.
—-
He makes a fair point.
The vow was deliberately kept as vague as possible, so backtracking could be done later.
It was the impression of real home rule that was important during the final week. Brown’s speech was hardly off the news during the last few days.
I even remember Jackie Bird in the final interviews with the campaign leaders, introducing the vow as ‘Devo-Max’ with Alistair Darling. Significantly, he did not dispute that. And Cameron said that nothing was off the table.
I think people genuinely expected more, and they demonstrated this when 56 SNP MP’s were elected.
Some may see Devo Max or federalism as a risk – but I think it is only right we go through that stage if that is what most people want.
This current bill is the worst of both worlds.
More welfare powers but only limited means of growing the tax base to pay for them. Mainly the blunt tool of personal income tax, where raising the top rate will inevitably cause some of the wealthiest taxpayers to relocate to England – for real or on paper.
Has anyone heard a peep from the author of the Smith Commission report about whether or not it has been fulfilled? Or did he go just go back to sleep on his red bench?
@ Onwards
Where Daisley’s wrong, in my opinion, is in saying that the SNP are being inconsistent in describing The Vow as worthless and then complaining that it hasn’t been delivered.
He has an interest in promoting the idea of grievance, but I think The Vow was worthless because it was clearly never intended to be delivered (maybe I’m just a cynic; certainly some people believed it). The complaint now is that this prediction has indeed come true. That’s not so much inconsistent, more “I told you so”.
… well, based on that spittle spattered diatribe of four swivel-eyed unionist hacks ……. I smell fear, and to steal a line from a popular Scottish comedy program … “I smell shite !!”
Crazycat , the Vow was worthless. For goodness sake even if you sign up for a mobile you get some kind of agreement.
The Vow , now where’s that archived ? An old copy of The Daily Record?
What a way to treat a country – next we’ll have Mundell writes on back of fag packet , Barnett Formula never existed , SNP just made it up ( a big fag packet )
@ Molly
Yes, I know, but some surprising people behaved as if it meant something, when it was pretty transparently just the front page of a tabloid newspaper. I had to bite my tongue many times when talking to people I expected to be more sceptical.
MUNDELL AND MEMOGATE
“The court heard there were 28 people who had knowledge of the memo and they had to complete a questionnaire for the inquiry.”
link to thenational.scot
28 people had knowledge of the memo – but David Mundell said he first knew of the leak when the Daily Telegraph ran a story on it, but did not address his personal knowledge of the memo itself.
Alistair Carmichael ‘sat’ on the information from April 3 till May 12 – 5 days after the General Election.
Mr Mundell ought to be called to give evidence.
On the basis that the Vow was presented as a serious offer, and that Holyrood was to be made permanent, to renege on these ‘promises’ is to render the Referendum morally, if not legally, null and void.
To see again in action on video, Cameron, Darling and Brown, pledging so much to Scotland if only they would vote No, and knowing what has come to pass, is to know that these three men, Cameron in particular, lied their souls into hell.
Such is the power of the media, particularly with vulnerable people. Without control of the media, a second Referendum will be suicidal.
From Hansard 10th September 2014.
Answering the usual rigged questions at PMQ’s whilst Cameron et al where up ‘campaigning’ in Scotland for a No vote.
William Hague stood in for Cameron.
You can read the whole thing in the link or watch the video…the constant statements from every part of the commons emphasising the disaster a Yes vote would bring and the sneering comments about the SNP. But that’s not the point I’m making.
As Onwards points out from the Daisley article, the ‘vow’ was lacking in detail, precisely so they could get there Vote No or else result. Here’s Christopher Chope (Con) asking about ‘government policy’ and ‘when did it change?’ in relation to ‘Vow’ offered up on behalf of the then PM, DPM and Opp. Leaders and sold to the Scottish electorate by the Daily Record:
‘Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Since 2012, my right hon. Friend and I have been supporting the policy of the Government not to offer so-called devo-max as a consolation prize in the event of a no vote in the Scottish referendum. If this is no longer the policy of the Government, when and why did it change, and what opportunity has there been for this House to express its view?
Mr Hague: It has been the policy of the Government for some time to be open to further devolution—I gave examples of what we have done in Wales, for instance, during the lifetime of this Government. The statements by the party leaders made on this in the last few days are statements by party leaders in a campaign—not a statement of Government policy today, but a statement of commitment from the three main political parties, akin to statements by party leaders in a general election campaign of what they intend to do afterwards. It is on that basis that they have made those statements.
“…are statements by party leaders in a campaign”…”akin to statements by party leaders in a general election campaign…”
In the 2015 GE campaign Cameron specifically said that there would be No Tax Credit cuts.
Never trust a Tory. Or a Red Tory. The promises and the ‘Vow’ were and are a complete fraud on the Scottish electorate.
They have no intentions of ‘honouring’ anything. All yesterday did was confirm it. It’s all the Lords will do too when they pretend they are ‘scrutinising’ the legislation.
The only reason we are getting ‘nothing’ pretending to be ‘substantial new powers’ is because we put the SNP into Westminster in May. This is a ‘show’ we are witnessing. While they work at undermining the SNP at every opportunity.
Does anyone seriously believe they wouldn’t have kicked Scotland even farther into the long grass if SLabour had been returned to Westminster?
Nah. Me either.
We have to crush Labour next year, and take the councils in 2017. They’ll either take us seriously, or send in the tanks. But I think CrusherBroon will be too knackered by then.
Hansard, about 8 headings down immediately after the ‘Topical Questions’ heading:
link to archive.is
Video, from 11mins in:
link to youtube.com
Dave Mcewan Hill at 1139 pm
My use of the word ‘superstitious’, if you care to actually check is correct in context. Not sure why you would ‘take offense’.
To clarify, from a reputable source;
“Often one person’s religion is another one’s superstition: the Roman emperor Constantine referred to some non-Christian practices as superstition; the Roman historian Tacitus called Christianity a pernicious superstition; Roman Catholic veneration of relics, images, and the saints is dismissed as superstitious by many Protestants; Christians regard many Hindu practices as superstitious;…”.
Source : link to britannica.com
I really thought Scotland would see an end to this kind of rubbish, whereby billionaire landowners could literally throw our farmers off their land.
Think the SNP and Scottish Government need to be bold on this subject.
link to archive.is
thx for your replies
If Gordon Brown said,by the way,there will be 100 amendments,Scotland Bill and only SNP amendments rejected,plus further scrutiny House of Lords,Independence would of been declared that night in Lasswade.
It’s like a massive phish take.Labour saying this is Home Rule,are they NUTS.
SNP blinked first on Full Fiscal autonomy during the referendum,big mistake,and now Mundell/Murray are waving FFA in Scotland’s face,”we’re saving Scotland from ruin”
FMQs Thursday, I hope Nicola rips them to pieces Scotland Bill
rant over
There will be no tax credits cuts in the UK. IDS will have to resign. Good riddance to the greedy little pigs.
Just vote all the Unionist politians out in Scotland. ‘A trap for the SNP’ ? What planet are they on? They are destroying their own parties and increasing support for Independence.
Reap what they sow.
Cameron the laughing stock of Europe. ‘Migration into Europe’. it is Westminster foreign policy which is causing the migration by bombing the Middle East to bits and supporting apartheid and despot regimes. Other European countries are having to sort out the problems.
1 MP good, 55 MPs bad!
PS assuming SLAB view of course.
‘A right to property’ is enshrined in the Human rights legislation and Scottish Devolution @ Lallander Peat Worrier.
The tenant could maybe sue for compensation/investment. It might depend on the contract of lease.
Handandshrimp
It is like painting by numbers and a finished one of these has about as much artistic merit as an “easy to paint Cotswold cottage in springtime” beginners set.
hey dont diss the p.b.n’s
this is one I have over the fireplace
link to tinyurl.com 🙂
_________________________________________________________
Gerry say
“And she said ‘but also many more Scots’.”
Thats a staggeringly ignorant comment by the QUEEN of all people! :0
No quine there still 59 Scots in your parliament just the same as before, or maybe you didn’t count you “loyal” SLAB MP’s as “Scots”?
That stupefying comment should be broadcast far and wide!
_____________________________________________________________
Swami Backverandah
“He admits he’s a liar. That’s a statement of his character. He went to the election as a person of disreputable character.
Not fit to hold Office.”
I remember watching a BBC report featuring Carmichael who was saying the “these things happen in politics”
It was there, right there I KNEW he was lying,
the slight smirk playing around his mouth suggested we were looking at some 15 year old ned accused of vandalism and graffiti writing saying, “it wasn’t me pc plod and you cant prove a thing”, in spite of him writing his name and address all over the wall in Halfords finest matt blue while taking a selfie of himself doing it.
“My use of the word ‘superstitious’, if you care to actually check is correct in context. Not sure why you would ‘take offense’”
No wonder they take the piss out of us, if supporters use logic like this to justify bigoted comments about fellow yes voters.
I can quote am English history professor who makes insulting comments about the character of Scots, so by Robert Louis’ logic none of us can complain about the insults we read in the MSM because these insults are backed up by reputable sources!
Robert, the point David was making was about not insulting people who visit wings and who may be open to reading the comments, why are you determined to insult Christians? or why are you putting your own bigotry before the goal of Scottish independence?
Since you put so much faith in ‘Reputable sources’ why not write to all these ‘clever people’ and ask them their opinion on the art of persuasion, ie: ‘is it clever to insult people who you are hoping to persuade to your own point of view’
Yesindyref2 @1.25 am
OT
I was a bit cynical about the new oil & gas authority but we shall see.
I gather O & G news from any source but the corporate media.
The only trouble is that some sources can be a bit ‘industry speak’ heavy for people not connected with the sector.
BBC Scotland seem to think that the whole of Scotland is waiting on the latest news about the drugs scandal to hit Russian athletes.
I couldn’t give a flying fcuk about Russian athletes.
If BBC Scotland is so concerned about drug cheats, then why don’t they mention why Paula Radcliffe and other Team GB athletes cheated at the 2012 London Olympics.
manandboy says:
at 3:06 am
That is the heart of the matter.
You believe either …
1) the promises were woolly, weak and have been met
2) the promises were clear, significant and have not been met
And, there is an additional aspect, either …
1) the Scottish voters wished to stay in the Union
2) the Scottish voters erred towards independence but were swayed in the last 10days of campaigning to stay in the Union by promises
At this stage, only the Scottish people in a democratic vote can pass judgement on WM’s Scotland Bill and the Union. Only the means of doing that have yet to be settled.
I am patiently waiting on BBC Scotland asking somebody from the Conservative Party to come into the studios at Pacific Quay and answers the difficult questions regarding the Scotland Bill.
For instance, if the Scottish Government tops up a tax credits, will the UK Government penalise that person by taking it off of another benefit the person claims.
In other words, there will still be a reduction in that person’s income.
All those paragraphs fit together so nicely its almost as if the authors have all been fitted with the same chip 😀
I’m with you on that Caz-m – I await large eggs on faces when the UK is called out on drugs in sport.
It appears to be Russia /Putin = BAD year .
Those vanished top class, yankee athletes of the Flo Jo era should be re-visited
O/T links
link to ronniecowan.com
link to christina-mckelvie.org
link to commonspace.scot
link to shetnews.co.uk
A couple of good articles on Scotland Bill this morning
link to thenational.scot
And link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
which illustrates how English MPs defeated the settled will of the elected Scottish MPs
Betty Windsor, “but also many more Scots”.
Aye, still got her marbles right enough. She has the political understanding to know that all those Lab and LibDem MPs from Scottish constituencies could never be considered ‘Scots’ in any practical sense, unlike the 56 new arrivals.
O/T links
link to independent.co.uk
link to archive.is
link to taxresearch.org.uk?
link to businessinsider.com
I found out yesterday the Nicolas Wilson the man who is pushing for an enquiry into HSBC fraud and connections to the bbc Rona Fairhead, Cameron and others is being interviewed today by the DWP about fraud.
Mr Ethical ?@nw_nicholas · 10h10 hours ago
The Big Society in action. I have an interview with DWP fraud dept tomorrow for receiving donations to keep me in my home.
link to nicholaswilson.com
@ 8.08 caz-m says:
The reason MSM / BBC UKOK brigade is so annoyed (and Doug Gillon was a vocal cheerleader during the referendum)is that England is still smarting from fact that Russia won the Football World Cup despite the FA spending £21 million on “inducements”.
Call Kaye bigging up Labour’s opposition to abortion being devolved but not Labour’s sell out over tax credits.
O/T links
link to globalresearch.ca
link to fusion.net
link to twitter.com
Posting this one again for anyone who missed it and please share.
link to ponsonbypost.com
O/T
Saw the article today in the National by McWhirter about last year’s SNP tsunami election – wondered why it was being regurgitated.
Then I got to the end and all was revealed “New book out £8.99”. Aye.
Difficult to believe the talk on here of campaigning for ‘Home 3ule’ or ‘FFA’.
Have the events of the last couple of days not demonstrated conclusively that Westminster will never, repeat never, voluntarily accede to the transfer of any significant powers whatsoever?
Jeez. Campaign for Home Rule and, after a few years of beating your head against a brick wall, you might, just might, get that second seat on the Northern Lighthouse Board.
link to publications.parliament.uk …
link to tommysheppardmp.scot
link to calumkerr.scot
link to independent.co.uk
link to archive.is
Petra says:
11 November, 2015 at 12:23 am
We can chunter on here as much as we like. Nobody is listening other than us and visitors to this site.
Find a way to impart information / backed up with valid data. Use your initiative. We’re not a bunch of total ignoramuses … far from it.
And hey ho Stu you put together the Wee Blue Book. Help us out now by putting together a leaflet outlining what’s going on now / our wealth and so on. We’ll download, print off and deliver.
Ruby replies
Is there a reason why people are not posting on The Scotsman, The Herald, The Daily Record, The Evening News, The Telegraph, The Guardian and every available online newspaper forum?
No need to get involved in any UniTroll flamebait/discussion just post the information and run.
Call Kaye starting a fight in an empty room on changing abortion laws now Scotland has the power apparently, let us forget the Lords and the Scotland Bill passage and the fact it is not in any party prospectus.
What a total squirrel tactic. Disgraceful.
No Scotland Bill discussion last night or today?
Is there a word for this state of affairs with our MSM and broadcasters? DysPression?
Time for a re-post. Remember, Israeli nationalism is Good, Scottish nationalism BAD!
link to haaretz.com
Jim Murphy is a member of Labour Friends of Israel and the Henry Jackson Society, is he not? Mmmm.
link to globalresearch.ca
“Training day ” see “Jim mcintosh’s post” of 11.04 last night.
link to tinyurl.com
Did anyone watch the Nick Davies videos there are 4 parts
‘perception management’ Interesting phrase.
This one is also interesting:
link to tinyurl.com
So from what I understand anything that the SNP does to mitigate the Tax Credit cuts for the people of Scotland, the UK Government will simply take it back through Universal Credit.
I’m not sure this is what ‘No’ voters expected when they voted to be ‘Better Together’.
Training Day at 9.06
Good post.
Complicated impediments that would tie us up for decades arguing, or should I say begging, for limited concessions.
Independence,as practised by the almost 200 countries in the world is the practical, normal,sensible and uncomplicated solution.
Arguing for any less (“a step towards independence” – no its not,its a hurdle put in the way to obstruct independence) makes no sense whatsoever.
“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs… Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home” ? Mahatma Gandhi
“People who call themselves supporters of Israel are actually supporters of its moral degeneration and ultimate destruction.” ? Noam Chomsky
“We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attacks on the twin towers and the pentagon and the American struggle in Iraq. These events swung American public opinion in our favor” ? Benjamin Netanyahu
@galamcennalath
Betty Windsor was never crowned “Queen of Scots”
She wasn’t even allowed to touch the “Honours of Scotland”
Training Day says:
“Difficult to believe the talk on here of campaigning for ‘Home 3ule’ or ‘FFA’.”
The problem is that the third way of Home Rule/DevoMax has lurked continually in the background. And, it is a huge problem because WM will never ever allow it. WM gives devolved powers, we cannot take devolution.
Home Rule / DevoMax has clouded the real issue which is that WM will only ever offer weak devolution and the only alternative to that is independence.
We have lived, are still living, in a make believe world where some people think there are three options, rather than two. This state suits the Unionists.
We take independence, but we must be given DevoMax. It was never on the table, it never will be. Yet it perpetuates despite the deceitful promises and the pathetic Scotland Bill. That is the reality of what WM want to give. That IS their idea of devolution to the max.
We need one last clear cut action to get the settled will of WM out in the open. IMO the SG and SNP should fight the election in May asking for a mandate to negotiate DevoMax within months, or call IndyRef2.
We must flush out WM once and for all and get them to admit Home Rule/ DevoMax is a pipe dream.
The only choice is take what’s on offer, or leave the Union. But we need WM to say that!
Robert Peffers says:
10 November, 2015 at 10:00 pm
Sorry Lesley-Anne and Robert I missunderstood.
What is the difference between “withdrawing form the Union” and UDI?
Once we “withdraw” how do we arrange revenue to flow to Holyrood instead of wastemonster?
One Scot
I’m not sure No voters know what they voted for. Certainly the No vote has been wasted if they remotely thought it was for Scotland’s good.
No voting politicians voted for themselves.
It’s weird to hear No Labour supporters talking about Scotland voted No. Completely lacking in self awareness or that the No Labour voters are closer to Yes voters than they are to Tory No voters but their vote has left us in the hands of the UK Tories.
This constant repetition that the vow has been delivered reminds me of a famous quotation, namely:
“If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”
? Adolf Hitler
Brian Powell says:
“It’s weird to hear No Labour supporters talking about Scotland voted No. Completely lacking in self awareness or that the No Labour voters are closer to Yes voters than they are to Tory No voters but their vote has left us in the hands of the UK Tories.”
I think some politically less savvy people see each vote in isolation and don’t go to the bother of educating themselves about the bigger picture.
Some saw the referendum as a vote to put Alex Salmond and the SNP in power. Then they saw the general election as their opportunity to put Labour in power.
The reality that by voting No they were probably condemning Scotland to unelected Tory government within months, wasn’t how they saw it.
55% of Scots chose to have Tory governments more often than not, and sooner or later. As it turned out, sooner. However, I don’t believe that is how they saw it.
Education is the solution.
O/T links
link to tommysheppardmp.scot
link to ronniecowan.com
link to independent.co.uk
link to archive.is
Brian Powell says:
11 November, 2015 at 9:56 am
One Scot
I’m not sure No voters know what they voted for.
Ruby Replies
They voted for what the media persuaded them to vote for.
The thing about Home Rule / Devo Max / FFA is it has the support of over two-thirds of Scotland, including Indy supporters.
The SNP have to go to the wire trying to get Home Rule / FFA / Devo Max, then when it doesn’t happen they can go to the electorate and honestly say “We did our best, now what do you want us to do?”
Hopefully the answer will be “well, we’d better have Independence then, it’s a YES from me.”.
Can’t they debate the behavior of the BBC in the Scottish Parliament?
It’s acting in a very anti Scottish manner and is a serious cause for concern, more so than the NHS IMO.
I realise using the Beeb and other MSM is the only way the SNP can attempt to get the message out there to the non web savvy but it sticks in the craw.
Alistair Carmichael case summing up –LIVE
link to news.stv.tv
Yougov poll EU, eliminating don’t knows:
Scotland 65% stay in EU, 35% leave
England 48% stay in EU, 52% leave.
O/T links
Nicolas Wilson who has been pushing for an inquiry into HSBC fraud and those connected to it has an appointment with the DWP today.
He tweeted last evening
“The Big Society in action. I have an interview with DWP fraud dept tomorrow for receiving donations to keep me in my home”
link to nicholaswilson.com
galamcennalath says:
I think some politically less savvy people see each vote in isolation and don’t go to the bother of educating themselves about the bigger picture.
Ruby replies
Educating yourself & becoming more politically savvy takes up a lot of time and most people just don’t have the time or the interest that is why it is so easy for the media aka ‘The Perception Managers’ to manipulate.
“The Scottish Government has already made clear it’s prepared to block the bill if it considers it to be against Scotland’s interests. It’s currently very difficult to see where a great deal of public opposition to that view would come from.”
I think if the “nuclear option” is used, and the Scotland Bill is rejected by Holyrood, on account of the damage that it will do and the fact that it falls well short of what was promised, then 1.6 million YES voters will cheer, whilst a good portion of the 2 million NO voters may just start making an effort to find out what is really going on. Some of them may finally realise just how disgracefully Scotland has been treated by WM since September 2014.
I see very little risk of rejecting the Scotland Bill, or at least holding out for a better deal (well beyond May 2016, if you see what I’m thinking), but I see enormous risks involved if the Scottish government meekly accepts the crumbs on offer, with the hope of avoiding all the serious traps laid out in front of it.
The unionist politicians and corporate media would be apoplectic, but the people of Scotland would understand – at 9% belief that the vow has been delivered, it’s a no-brainer. The Scottish government has shown remarkable restraint and patience since the referendum, and it has paid dividends. Now, however, we enter a new phase in the struggle – now is the time to show courage and start fighting back.
Alistair Carmichael case. A lie being described as an ‘untruth’. God help us.
Lastly, gettng back to the media, which is unionist in nature and anti-SNP in bias. The Unionists and the media are full of “Grievance politics from the SNP, Grievo-Max, whingeing, complaining, it’s all Westminster’s fault”.
Good. They think it’ll influence the Scottish Electorate against the SNP, so do Labour, the Tories, the LibDems.
According to Curtice after the Ref, and before, the questions were about the various parts that Devo-Max would bring, or FFA. According to him, not just the SNP or us, 68% or thereabouts of Scotland wanted DevoMax, not just “more powers”, Devo-Max.
That’s the battle, and if 68% of the electorate still want Devo-Max and we’re not getting it, the media are doing us good, not bad. But they’re blinded by their own sense of rightness, just like Labour in Scotland. Well, good, keep it up, incredibly stupid media, keep it up.
They may not know it, but they’re on our side and doing our battle for us, they’re just too thick to realise it.
Meanwhile it looks like the House of Lords will even further dilute the Scotland Act from being weak and watery to being even less, whatever that is.
War is good business: link to wp.me
yesindyref2 says:
11 November, 2015 at 10:22 am
Yougov poll EU, eliminating don’t knows:
Scotland 65% stay in EU, 35% leave
England 48% stay in EU, 52% leave.
Ruby replies
Scotland signed up to have English votes for EU exit.
It would seem in Scotland we have English votes for pretty much everything but that is what NO voters wanted. They were even happy to accept that Scotland no longer existed that in 1707 Scotland became Lesser England.
Did Better Together not make a vow that voting NO would ensure continued EU membership? Perhaps Alberto Costa could comment on that vow.
Not only did Scotland sign up to have English votes for EU exit Scotland signed up to have English votes for Scotland’s prime minister, government & pretty much everything else.
Ruby says:
Agree its a waste of energy combating the right wing fanatics and online Labour trolls in papers such as the Scotsman but we must get our message over.
If enough people write in to the unionist press with short reasoned letters pointing out the facts on the SNP record or the shortcomings of the Scotland Bill they can’t ignore them all.
Apart from Wings which is at #1, we now have plenty of good sources such as the article on more powers at
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
Or Scot Go Pop or Derek Bateman etc
Rejecting the Scotland Bill, and holding out for something better, if nothing else, would certainly put a spanner in WM’s cunning little plan for May 2016. 🙂
Imagine our own little government, defying the power of WM, for all the world to see! The tory press would be barely able to contain their rage, leading to some pure hilarious headlines. Bring it on, I say. 🙂
So come on, Holyrood, if the Scottish Bill is crap and detrimental, then reject it outright. Send them homeward tae think again. The Scottish people will back you – I have no doubt of that whatsoever. 🙂
That’s not to say, of course, that we should all shut up, quite the contrary. But to some extent at times we can take our lead from the Unionists and use it against them.
So when, for instance as he just has, Gordon Brown says the Tories will do incredible harm cutting tax credits the answer from us to him isn’t “What would you know you told us to vote NO”. The answer is “Yes Gordon, that’s right, it will do incredible harm, so why did your party vote against devolving tax credits to Scotland in the Scotland Act?”
link to commonspace.scot
Alistair Carmichaels defence of lying being ‘A frolic of his own’, that only three people knew about is being accepted by the prosecution.
WTF.
I think the SNP in Holyrood should abstain on the Scotland Bill. It can then be foisted on the people of Scotland by its Blue, Red and Yellow Tory authors.
Alistair Carmichael is clearly telling lies about his lies. If he gets away with this, we may as well just give up.
I really do hope the SNP government reject this bill in its present form, as it is clearly a Trogan horse to undermine the Scottish Parliament.
And BTW I hope all Wingers take the time to make their feelings known to the BBC Trust, by responding to their survey.
link to consultations.external.bbc.co.uk
@Luigi
Indeed, it’s a possibility. But there’s a background to this that isn’t the fight between Unionists and Independentists, it’s those who aren’t in that battle at all, and remained neutral in name at least.
Like the charity organisations SCVO, the STUC, some of the unions, who wanted nearly FFA, not including corporation tax for fear of the 3% cut which isn’t on the table now with Sturgeon.
And then there’s the Trades Union Bill.
As Tommy Shepard says, you ain’t seen nothing yet.
OK wingers-time to get active
Yesterday I posted this
link to scottishlabour.org.uk …
So how about Wings gets out there with cameras/phones & take a few pics of the hordes of marchers in each area on Saturday. There’s bound to be some funny ones as Sweep pointed out-how many activists do they think they have.
Also if you can point out which locally well kent faces are taking part. There’s bound to be a 3 line whip on this activity so I’m sure Stu could use the info wisely.
Its not beyond the wit of wingers to do this & I’m sure there’s enough to cover every single ‘march’ 🙂
@Easwald
Possibly. There’s a lot of ways they could play it come the final vote. They could even stage a mass walk-out, or stand up when they’re not supposed to or heckle the Speaker and get banned for a week. No idea what’s best for them to do, I daresay they do though.
Ruby says
“It would seem in Scotland we have English votes for pretty much everything but that is what NO voters want”
Some undoubtedly wanted that. They accept that Scotland is just a wee bit of their UK and therefore it is fine and dandy that the UK majority dictate.
However, many NO voters did not explicitly decide to opt for that. It was the consequence of their actions, yes, but it was not their intention.
The solution is to educate as many as possible and therefore to get it right next time. Once someone’s eyes are open to the wider picture, the shift in perception cannot be undone.
As a fan of this site for nearly but not quite the full 4 years I wouldn’t call myself a political anorak (it was football that brought me here) but here are my thoughts anyway.
Clear Labour out of the councils in 2017 then Indyref2 2018. Then Westminster can do what it wants with the Scotland Bill.
I believe I and many others would be deeply disappointed if the SNP don’t have an Indyref2 in their manifesto, it would be an acceptance of Tory rule maybe even an endorsement.
As an SNP voter for 30 years I would feel betrayed if they forgot their principal of independence and didn’t include it as the number 1 priority as it is evident to anyone with a serious thought process that nothing less is good enough, as Westminster are kind enough to show us again and again.
It is also NOT necessary to come up with a reason deemed good enough by Westminster to have indyref2. If it’s in the manifesto and they get elected, job done, that’s democracy. If London doesn’t like it, even better.
Tommy Sheppard
“Tonight we gave notice to the government that we will not accept a situation where Westminster uses the transfer of (limited) powers as a means of back doors cuts to the Scotland budget”
… hard to see how the Bill as it stands is not an attempt to squeeze Scottish finances. Perhaps therein lies an underlying issue which will necessitate rejection.
BBC Scotland radio news really loud trumpeting a second month rise in Scottish unemployed, against drop in England. So with income tax devo on less actual tax base, its all coming together for UKOK.
You cant run your own economy and you can’t stop tax credits, BBC Scotland says give up, vote SLABOUR, they’ll fix it, for you and you and you.
Its still a really weird experience listening to BBC Scotland roaring UKOK rule britannia out of the wireless, thank christ.
Sinky says:
11 November, 2015 at 10:37 am
Ruby says:
Agree its a waste of energy combating the right wing fanatics and online Labour trolls in papers such as the Scotsman but we must get our message over.
Ruby replies
I wasn’t suggesting writing letters I was suggesting that people post on every available online forum.
What would be wrong with that?
No need to get involved with/wound up by ‘the right wing fanatics’ just post information on these forums and leave.
galamcennalath says:
However, many NO voters did not explicitly decide to opt for that
Ruby replies
Do you mean NO voters did not make an informed decision?
@Nana
That’s a belter of a link about the HOL considering rejecting the Scotland Bill. Funny old democratic world init! 🙂
Meanwhile Swinney (who’s up on these kind of things) isn’t sure if the mitigation of tax credits to folk in Scotland will be confiscated by the WM government.
Our MP Ms Black also asked for clarification from Mundell during the debate.
Mundell shrugs and says “You’ll have to take your chances”
Those in the UK Tax office declare “we’re not in the business of cutting tax credits”!
The fate of Scotland getting kicked from pillar to post like an old toy and then stuffed into the cupboard under the stairs, then occasionally taken out as comfort blanket from time to time to be taunted and abused when desired!
SNP X 2 next election.
QC for Orkney Four, on Carmichael, two minutes ago:
‘Even in apologising, he lies.’
OOOFT!! New baws please…
“And so the Scotland Bill, the most blatant fiscal trap in 300 years, has passed its Commons stages. There can still be amendments in the House of Lords, but since the SNP doesn’t sit there, they can’t table any.
But why is it a trap, and why has the canny SNP fallen into it?
Iain Macwhirter on Scotland bill farce but is it a UKOK trap? Traps are laid to catch prey or enemies which clearly SNP Scots.gov is but theyre meant to catch and eradicate the unwary so that they walk right into it.”
UKOK media Scotland bill coverage, BBC in particular? less thatn Fcuk all, shock.
Not even mentioned by say these britnat con artists-
link to theguardian.com
Oor Ian knows all this, but its the SNP walking into it.
Journos eh? This has to be one of the biggest British frauds on any electorate anywhere.
@call me dave
You would think they hold some sort of grudge or grievance would you not haha. This is democracy UK style don’t ya know.
I have every faith in Nicola and John Swinney, they will have a plan.
As for Mundane Muddle Mundell, yes indeed Scotland will take our chances next year. Hopefully he will be out on his big behind.
Ruby,
I agree but honestly I once was a happy soul, then I started to post on the Scotsman just dabbled you understand. But then it got I couldn’t get through the day without checking, the poison was seeping into my blood. Friends tried to help me, my family feared for the worst, I was spiraling out of control, my health deteriorated and I developed a nervous twitch. I couldn’t sleep at night for worrying about benefit scroungers and Nazi stormtroopers!
One day I stumbled across Wings, at once the clouds lifted and the light shone into my life again, I was reborn, friends and family were amazed at the transformation, I was back to my old happy self, and you Ruby want to send me back!
Please Rubby in the name of all that’s holy think what you are asking, Madness awaits those that venture there!
Mitigation of reserved matters? Why, they’re resereved, outwith the scope of the SG. The SG should not mitigate tax credits, it’s a total diversion from the fact that this is not Devo to the Max or near federalism!
Lollysmum 10.58,
I don’t see anything about marches on the website you linked to.I think it’s more likely to be a couple of Labour guys handing out anti SNP leaflets,maybe from a little stall/table with a few labour flaggy things.The same handful of Labour activists will probably be dashing about from event to event. I suspect this is more about Labour getting some publicity for their candidates in the election campaign.
Ruby says
“Do you mean NO voters did not make an informed decision?”
That is precisely the point I am making.
A true democracy needs a free media and press presenting a mix of opinions and standpoints to play a major part in keeping voters informed of the differing views, and any facts which may or may not support them.
The role and position of the media and press was almost completely asymmetrical in the run up to the vote. It is little better now.
The part played by the state broadcaster in particular was an utter disgrace.
So anyone who relied solely on these established sources of information was fed very biased opinions and selective facts, they therefore could not have made an informed decision.
See these ‘I want to remain part of the UK, but I vote SNP for our voice at westminster’ types – half-Scots……..the sooner they wake up and smell the coffee, the better.
All will be forgiven.
Just grow a backbone and bloody well wake up!!!
heedtracker at 11.36
Because the SNP hasn’t fallen into it. There is no way they can stop this sham so they are playing it.
Asking for “permission” to have another referendum in the full knowledge that stupid Westminster will say no (when they can’t actually legally in the terms of the UN Charter stop it)is all part of the game. It’s called calling your bluff
@mealer
If you look at my post yesterday at 3.10 on the last thread and click on the link within the tweet there is a list.
Ian Brotherhood @11:28
“OOOFT!! New baws please…”
Aye Ian I like it but the real nut cracker will be when he’s found guilty!!
Dave McEwan Hill says:
11 November, 2015 at 11:52 am
heedtracker at 11.36
Because the SNP hasn’t fallen into it. There is no way they can stop this sham so they are playing
The UKOK trap is sprung for Scottish electorate, not SNP Scots.gov. Which is why the whole UKOK media, led and coordinated by the BBC have buried it away. EVEL got similar UKOK burial although its getting pulled out again with English trading law.
General consensus of SNPout showoffs? They UKOK love it.
Effie Deans ?@Effiedeans 18 hrs18 hours ago
SNP can now raise taxes and pay whatever level of benefit they like. But they’d always rather complain about the neighbours. Very dull
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Effie Deans ?@Effiedeans 18 hrs18 hours ago
Every time the SNP fail to accept responsibility for running Scotland they demonstrate why they are not remotely ready for independence
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Even one of the spivy toryboys that cooked up the PAYE tax hike scam ain’t saying much about his dirty deeds done dirt cheap, which is odd considering just how enraged he is by Scotland actually running Scotland
link to twitter.com
Ruby 10:37 am
Scotland 65% stay in EU, 35% leave
England 48% stay in EU, 52% leave.
… I understand that it is pretty neck and neck on a UK scale Ruby. Given that the referendum will take place on a UK basis, wouldn’t your efforts be best used trying to convert the don’t knows, and the softies in the middle across the UK (who will ultimately determine the outcome), of your favoured outcome – rather than referring to them as “right wing fanatics?
Staying or leaving the EU has the same issues for your average English person as it does Scot – so why not leave the nationalism to one side and argue the case on its merits rather than making it a Scotland/England thing. As it happens, I am waiting to be convinced either way.
@Andrew McLean
Yeah that wee dark room that we had back then, FGS Andrew don’t go back in there… stay in the light. 🙂
@Ian Brotherhood
Carmichael is toast…maybe not in law, but within general society, his stock is low and nosediving even further each day.
But hey! Our present Prime minister and our chancellor have a chequered past as do Blair and Straw and they seem to be nudging along. In times past politicians used to resign for much less.
🙁
Where’s Kezia?
Probably trying to solve the enigma of her stand on Tax Credits but hoping to divert FMQs by attacking the Scottish NHS and the Police, no brainer.
Is it just me, or is the case playing for a draw – Two judges.
Staying or leaving the EU has the same issues for your average English person as it does Scot –
That’s seriously not true either is it sensibledave, if you’re still the same sensibledave that flounced off last week. If you’re not, Hello all new and exciting sensibledave.
England will decide Scotland’s EU membership and if England says leave, its another serious driver for Scottish independence. But Project Fear England is kicking in now so its highly unlikely England will vote to leave anyway.
The only difference Project Fear wise from what Scotland endured via toryboy world, BBC etc is pig fancier PM Cameron’s got to at least try and appease England’s far right toryboy world, which is a bit disorientating.
EU membership is just one more massive issue that proud Scotbuts decided should be left to England, sadly.
I live in a lovely Perthshire village with several hundred residents. I would say most residents are conservative with a small c. I talk to most of them throughout the week,and one thing is clear.They are not in ignorance of what is happening politically at this time.
There are true blue Unionists who will never change, but many more who are utterly exasperated with what they see
happening to our MP’S.The message is getting out all right ,especially among the younger voters.
We only have to reinforce this regularly to reap the rewards.
If my village is an example of other areas,then a Unionist wipe out is definitely on the cards
sensibledave says:
Staying or leaving the EU has the same issues for your average English person as it does Scot
Ruby replies
No it does not!
England has a problem with immigration = too many immigrants. Scotland has the opposite problem = too few immigrants.
What’s with the arrogant patronising finger wagging lectures on what I should and shouldn’t be doing?
You do realise that your arrogant patronising superior attitude annoys people? Perhaps that is your intention!
ENGLAND WILL DECIDE IF SCOTLAND WILL BE IN OR OUT OF THE EU!
ENGLISH VOTES FOR SCOTLAND’S EU MEMBERSHIP!
I am waiting to be convinced either way.
And as soon as they decide which way they want it to go the whole of the state apparatus will swing into action to make it come out that way.
Government, Political parties, Civil Service, BBC, big business, hell maybe even the queen will get behind the campaign to have me vote the way they want.
And if they think that’s not working, well, there’s always postal votes.
Westminster is full of Scots. Betty is correct. The previous mob were Brittish.
A number of posts above rightly criticise the BBC for bias.
At the risk of repeating myself, get in your complaint to the BBC Trust NOW!
link to consultations.external.bbc.co.uk
Alistair Carmichael–court
ruling will be 2-0 either way
I cant see judges going 1-1
Mitchell dragging all the perputators thru the mud,even if case is lost
gerry parker says:
11 November, 2015 at 12:37 pm
I am waiting to be convinced either way.
And as soon as they decide which way they want it to go the whole of the state apparatus will swing into action to make it come out that way.
Ruby replies
Absolutely spot on!
That is exactly what will happen unless by some miracle people will waken up and realise just who is pulling their strings!
I’m recommending everyone watch Nick Davies on You Tube.
Read Flat earth news
Find our about ‘Perception management’
Sorry Rev, I just couldn’t bring myself to read beyond the first couple of “SNP are wingeing and BAAAAAD” sentences. Life is too short and I can’t be arsed reading thei drivel. I did read your piece after that and I appreciate the monumental effort it must take to bring these obnoxious, biased excuses for journalists to task.
It is very frustrating to have our sovereignty and elected government treated this way and can only ensure that independence will follow by fair means or foul. Hopefully people won’t resort to the violence we have seen elsewhere in the UK (rioting)and NI (the Troubles), but independence can’t come soon enough!
MITCHELL QC’s argument to judges in a nutshell:
A “political” lie is something that can be denied.
No one was in a position to deny Mr Carmichael’s lie.
And since it could not be denied, Mr Carmichael’s lie cannot have been “political”
It must have been “personal”.
Re alamcennalath
Effectively the Scotland Bill amounts to a sneaky way of Scotland further subsidising the rUK.
Actually it’s not even sneaky.
Take away funds from Scotland, allow Scotland to make up the lost funds via a second taxation of her citizens then (potentially) take that away as well.
Or, if not taken away, use said extra taxation (if implemented) as proof that even more central funding can be removed; of course taxation from/revenue generation in Scotland direct to the UK Treasury will not be cut, and if anything will see an increase.
The rewards for those within Scottish Society who support this robbery are the usual Establishment gongs of Knighhoods, Honours, Expenses, High Flying Political Appointments and invites to Buckingham Palace Garden Parties and Wimbledon Centre Court tickets.
I think the time is approaching where a little page is torn out of the Warrant Sales, Poll Tax etc book.
I also believe that the Civil Liberties of Scottish citizens is being infringed and that it could be demonstrated that an unfair burden of taxation, in effect an erosion of basic human rights based on ethnicity and where Scots live, is being implemented.
Gordon Brown currently on Sky giving a speech on poverty,
bet the will not say his party voted to allow the Tories to carry on with their poverty producing measures.
Scumbag.
Further to my link above…
link to commonspace.scot
A truly loathsome individual is Broon.
link to commonspace.scot
ENGLAND WILL DECIDE IF SCOTLAND WILL BE IN OR OUT OF THE EU!
ENGLISH VOTES FOR SCOTLAND’S EU MEMBERSHIP!
England will make their decision based on what
‘Government, Political parties, Civil Service, BBC, big business, hell maybe even the queen’
decide they want the English voters to do.
Judges see more interested in what time lunch is.
For the EU thing, if Scotland remained at 65% Stay, 35% Leave, that’s a 30% majority for staying in. We’re 1/12th of the UK, so that would contribute 2.5% majority for staying in to the UK, or 5.5% staying in, 3% leaving.
If the UK as a whole move to be 51% stay in, 49% leave, which is quite possible, that would, mean rUK 45.5% stay, 46% leave. That would mean that Scotland was keeping the whole UK in the EU.
How d’ya like them onions, rest of UK?
The only way to hurt the EBC is STOP paying the licence fee.
Complain all you want to them, unless you are saying SNP bad, they won’t give a toss.
99.999% of the EBC is sh*t anyway, watch it on I-player and skip through to the lies you want to hear, simples.
It’s great watching garbage like wiggy spanials ears on rep scot , she has total contempt for the SNP, I used to have respect for her, then last year realised what a useless, pathetic piece of sh*t news anchor she is.
James “I am a real journalist me” Cook is fannying about the US and A at the licence payers expense, the list goes on and on, that’s the quality they employ
I no longer pay their wages, set yourselves free.
You won’t miss it.
Giving goose, I wondered about that. So, Scotland gives the same amount to the treasury
We get less back through cuts to Barnett plus as all bands have to be increased (if tax is raised for example to mitigate tax credits) effectively taxed twice ? Have I got that right ?
Moral turpitude as Jonathon Mitchell would say -indeed
I won’t have time to cast my vote on EU membership – even though I am borderline pro european
I will be too busy praying to whatever God will listen that Mr and Mrs England vote the UK out!
yesindyref2 says 1:08 pm
Yes but the swine would only twist it to their advantage, but I like your devilishness!!
O/T
Totally amazed that Stuart Lancaster has resigned as the Engerland Wugga coach.
I thought it was the SNP who were to blame for Engerland getting pumped at the Wugga wc.
Vote SNP get SNP.
Pondering what ifs
If England votes to leave the EU, will the Scottish Government seek the assistance of the EU to get special status?
link to wikipedia.org
And can we not apply now? surely as the most powerful devolved nation would mean we can?
I am ignoring the BBC and STV today and I feel so much more relaxed.
The tranquillity I experienced this morning was ironically spoiled by low flying jets at the 11th hour. I wonder how the BBC will spin that one.
No Judges like their decisions held up to scrutiny.
Mathews & Paton are (on previous accasions I was in the court) were very attentive in the detail,as they are being now.
They cant ignore the Lie,& the fact it brought other innocent people under scrutiny by Carmicheals Lying Repeatedly to re-inforce that Lie (personal Character) , two strikes, personal & political.
Thing is yesindyref2, that’s exactly how it would be interpreted from the Unionist side. Which contradicts their ‘we’re all one UK and British’ bullshit.
We’re all one except when England tells us we’re only a wee percentage of the UK and shouldn’t influence their big UK decisions.
Can’t even see their own internalised ‘non civic’ nationalism.
STV.”You can watch a livestream of the Alistair Carmichael election court live on this page.
STV’s cameras are in court one at the Court of Session in Edinburgh and are showing the case from around 10am.”
The Election Court has adjourned for lunch,and I’m guessing it’ll be back in court at 2pm approximately.
link to news.stv.tv
@Ruby
The pretence has gone now and it should be clear to anybody even with the least possible understanding that the English Government has outed itself as what they always were, which was never the British government
We’re now in the honest age of Might is Right and they’re flexing their Mightyness for all to see
yesindyref2 says:
“If the UK as a whole move to be 51% stay in, 49% leave, which is quite possible, that would, mean rUK 45.5% stay, 46% leave. That would mean that Scotland was keeping the whole UK in the EU”
That kind of scenario has occurred to me, if it’s close in England but wider elsewhere.
What do they do? Just accept it? The Hard Core UKOUT brigade would be furious. How dare Jocklanders keep us GreaterEnglanders in the EU!
If nothing else it would be a good laugh.
Could it lead to England wanting independence from Scotland? 🙂
And, how is it all going down in N Ireland and Wales?
i really dont think there will be an EU referendum the tories will bottle it,hence no commitment to a date yet.
If they do go ahead with it, it could lead to the same result as in Scotland where a large portion of the English electorate might just wake up to the reality they live in and the lies their governments have been telling them,referendum are a danger to the establishment because they awaken the electorate who start asking questions,Dave will come back waving a bit of paper saying we got everything we want from the EU and there is no need for a referendum,watch this space.
Its a fair assumption that the unionist parties support will be split by a referendum ,so what will all those on the losing side of the debate think,will they still vote for a party that stood against their view.
It will be interesting to see if they have the balls to risk alienating half their support,and if it is a no to the exit will all those who want an exit go back in their box,lol its a real can of worms.
Jack Murphy: I wonder if that will be available on catch-up or Independence live.
link to camvista.com
Not much going on at the moment. I think I can spot the ‘the world’s most pierced woman’
sitting in the corner wrapped in a white blanket or perhaps it’s her wedding dress.
link to dailymail.co.uk
The simple fact is that by misleading the cabinet inquiry, which he admits, Carmichael also misled voters.
He is asking us to believe it did not occur to him that misleading voters would bolster his chances of being re-elected.
That is obviously not true.
There,s still bad apples in the Banking System who knew,diz a collunder hiv holes.
heedyr 12.30
You wrote “England will decide Scotland’s EU membership and if England says leave, its another serious driver for Scottish independence. But Project Fear England is kicking in now so its highly unlikely England will vote to leave anyway.”
I am happy to discuss the benefits or otherwise of being in the EU Heedy. However, I suspect, based upon your comment, that you couldn’t care less about the EU – as long as England votes the opposite way to Scotland. That will mean that you will be able to wail at the injustice of it all and that, you believe, will help the cause of Scottish Independence.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that Heedy – but I am not playing that game with you.
Gary45% says:
11 November, 2015 at 1:09 pm
The only way to hurt the EBC is STOP paying the licence fee.
Ruby replies
Agreed! But Gary45% what about the ‘Football Aficionados’ how can they watch Sky Sport?
Tut Gary! You forgot the ‘sport warning’ on your post about wugga.
Ronnie Anderson 1:24
How about this , Ronnie I am voter, I was the one who Carmichael directed his lie I suffered loss of respect in the self talking of Alistair Carmichael so damnum injuria datum would be not political , the loss would occur in the mind of the offended ie a private individual. Carmichael as a candidate, never mind as a government minister owed a duty of care, this he admits, his actions fell short of the standard expected.
The problem for the future is, if it is allowed to stand then the court gives approval for misconduct, anything a politician says could no longer be trusted to even cling to a vestige of truth.
The “dogs on the street” knew what he was doing, could the court side with the ass?
yesindyref2 1:08 pm
You wrote: How d’ya like them onions, rest of UK?
If that was the result, I’d accept it – because that is democracy.
It s a bit like living in an area of the UK that votes Tory election after election – and yet we had years and years of Labour governments. Or living in a staunch labour constituency in Scotland and getting an SNP government.
You need to be honest with yourselves. The EU referendum result has nothing to with what you think is best or worst – it everything to do with you hoping for a division between the way Scotland and England votes – because that is what you want. One would hope that honesty featured more prominently in issues such as this.
Could you just give me some advance warning? What’s next on the list of disingenuous grievance if the UK votes to stay in?
I am happy to discuss the benefits or otherwise of being in the EU Heedy. However, I suspect, based upon your comment, that you couldn’t care less about the EU – as long as England votes the opposite way to Scotland. That will mean that you will be able to wail at the injustice of it all and that, you believe, will help the cause of Scottish Independence.
What me or any Scot thinks about the EU is irrelevant sensibledave. Its up to England to decide.
For the record, once the great EUOK Project Fear terrorising really kicks in, there is no way England will vote Brexit. Just as England’s toryboy world has made sure Scotland stayed under their control, they’ll make sure its EUOK all the way.
Youre nearly right though sensible, as a Scot and knowing that your EU vote is completely worthless after the BetterTogether fraud, its quite fun watching it all play out again doon sooth.
Do you think the Queen will make another creepy referendum intervention threat in the week before ref day, like what she did to Scotland sensibledave?
Also, even if it is Brexit, I highly doubt it would make any difference to loyal NO Thanks voters in Scotland.
It just wouldn’t look that great UKOK wise and that’s why you’ve popped up on here today sensibledave 2.
Lunch is over. Afternoon proceedings. Alistair Carmichael MP Election Court.
”You can watch a livestream of the Alistair Carmichael election court live on this page.
STV’s cameras are in court one at the Court of Session in Edinburgh and are showing the case” [STV]
LIVE via STV court link:-
link to news.stv.tv
OT I’m not up on Twitter etiquette but apparently some idiot thinks if you retweet something you must agree with it!
It hasn’t occurred to said person that Stu might retweet things he thinks are wrong, stupid, mad, ironic, bad, ill informed, pathetic just to draw sane minded peoples’ attention to them!
There are some odd folks around.
Ruby@1.49
Sport warning,
Oops sorry Ruby, the thing is I love sport, but I realised a while back that sitting watching the footy e.t.c on the toob, is what’s killing the game.
Sports “Stars!!!” get paid faaaar to much money, the cause?
Shysters like Murdoch’s company paying farcical amounts for viewing rights, and then clubs having to charge too much to pay for “stars” wages, pricing ordinary punters out of stadia.
I do miss Moto GP on the toob, but since September 2014 I realised there are more important things in life.
Looks like the SNP will be getting the blame for the cwicket.
Apparently Carmichaels excuse is that he wanted protect the 11 seats including his own.
Admits his own guilt. If he is not found guilty then the ruling will clearly be unsafe.
Heedy 12.03
You wrote “What me or any Scot thinks about the EU is irrelevant sensibledave. Its up to England to decide.!
Read (and then have a fight with) yesindyref2 at 1.08
David McDowell says:
11 November, 2015 at 1:42 pm
The simple fact is that by misleading the cabinet inquiry, which he admits, Carmichael also misled voters.
He is asking us to believe it did not occur to him that misleading voters would bolster his chances of being re-elected.
So Carmichael would have us believe that, as a politician, his personal chances of re-election just before a general election did not come into consideration at all, or influence his Memogate actions in any way?
Aye right.
Jack Murphy
Have been watching this from start. Just had a quick snigger at Mitchell saying “Professor Curtis’ evidence, insofar as it goes…”
Nicola said on numerous occaisions that a trigger would be required to offer indyref2 and it had to be decided by the people.
She and we know, we cannot lose this one.
The one she gave as an example was Brexit but she clearly campaigned on more powers ie ‘devo max’and that gave us 55/56 SNP MPs.
So the logical conclusion to that is The Scotland bill which has not delivered what was promised should be one of those triggers.
It is up to the people to recognise this and demand indyref2 but it will only happen with 55%+.
I’m on twitter and am not sure if there are a large number of folk who still believe the MSM or if these people are professional trolls
STV court coverage conveniently going down at crucial summing up.
One-Scot.
Aye, but the sponsors message is getting through alright.
Hi not all wugga buggers are unionist, myself being a case in point. If you want to watch rugger and not the beeb live then watch it on catchup or start watching it five minutes after it starts… as if you watch from the beginning; an option given then it is no longer live TV. If you cannot bare the beeb then watch on youtube.
I think that might be one of the first Wings posts I read.
A thought experiment: the SNP are currently on the “we will fight for more powers for Scotland” tack. They did it Westminster’s way for a year, by respecting Westminster’s style of “democracy.” It resulted in a watered-down Smith commission, where dozens of amendments supported or tabled by SNP were voted down, and other amendments opposed by SNP passed, despite having 95% of Scottish seats representing more Scots than the other three major UK parties combined (50% to 46.7%).
Next year? We do it the Holyrood way. The SNP stand on a platform explicitly throwing everything back in the other parties’ faces – using the powers that we already have. The biggest power is the sovereign will of the Scottish people, as recognised by the UK Supreme Court and international law. Unionists love to talk about the Settled and Sovereign Will of the Scottish people in regards to the referendum, but therein lies the rub: the only people who stopped Scotland from becoming independent were the people of Scotland themselves.
So the official result led to one last chance for Westminster to show it had Scotland’s interests at heart. The Scotland Bill is the spoiled, bruised, festering fruit of that trust. The SNP should say “we tried it the Westminster way, but they clearly only respect the sovereign will of the Scottish people when it suits them.”
What’s the Holyrood way? Well, if the Westminster way is acknowledging the ultimate sovereignty of parliament, then the Holyrood way is acknowledging the ultimate sovereignty of the people. The SNP’s platform in 2016, then, will be an election to determine that if Westminster denies the devolution of powers to the Scottish parliament despite the Scottish people’s wishes, then the Scottish parliament should ignore Westminster as refusing to acknowledge their sovereignty.
The trick is that this must be conducted in a way that it is crystal clear that a vote for the SNP is a vote for Holyrood to ultimately decide which powers it has, not the UK Parliament – and thus, definitively and incontrovertible evidence and proof of the people’s will.
It’s clear that the people of Scotland want a great many things devolved to Holyrood. Well, the SNP should run an election saying that when the Scottish people’s will and the will of the UK parliament contest, then Holyrood will and must always follow the people’s will. If the people of Scotland want, say, welfare devolved, and it is proven beyond doubt that this is what they want (i.e. an election saying that Holyrood should have final say on devolved matters) then Westminster must grant it to the Scottish people. If they don’t, then they don’t have a leg to stand on.
That’s why Devomax wasn’t on the referendum – because not only did Westminster have no intention of delivering it, but because of the legally-recognised sovereignty of Scotland’s people, if Scots voted for Devomax in a referendum Westminster could not possibly refuse. That’s why the Scottish parliament is still in existence – because there was a referendum asking the people of Scotland if they wanted a parliament, and they voted overwhelmingly for it. Overturning the result of a referendum in such a way would be inexcusable and indefensible as a matter of law in relation to the Scottish people’s will.
“Use the powers we have.” “Respect the sovereign will of the Scottish people.” Let’s do it, and dare Westminster to stop us.
Given that Carmichael’s case was brought by the public and is being heard in public court why is the verdict being withheld
from the public and only being released to Parliament at a date chosen by the judges
Something doesn’t sound right about that, if someone is taken to court for e.g Theft, they’re tried and found for or against there and then and the complainants duly informed of the result at that time
Why is this case different, Carmichael stole peoples votes by lying to gain an advantage, is this not the same as any other crime, civil or otherwise
Legal knowledge folk help me out here, what am I missing, coz this smells Stinky to me
I think the lesson from this is, the State, whether media or political, will always protect their own.
*Forgot to add: all through the referendum, Cameron and Darling and Westminster all said the same thing: “this is a matter for the people of Scotland to decide.” Well, why should that only refer to independence?
Who would argue that Scots should not be able to decide on Scottish welfare, jobs, and broadcasting when Scots already decide on Scottish health, education, and law? Who would argue that the people of England should decide what powers Scotland exercises over its own destiny after all the caterwauling about EVEL? Who would argue that voting No was a vote to surrender everything into the hands of the Tories, that we might as well close up Holyrood, coalesce our NHS and schools and laws with those of England & Wales, and call ourselves North British?
We know who would argue these things – the question is, would the people of Scotland agree with them?
@ Ruby says at 9:10 am ”Petra says we can chunter on here as much as we like. Nobody is listening other than us and visitors to this site. Find a way to impart information / backed up with valid data. Use your initiative. We’re not a bunch of total ignoramuses … far from it. And hey ho Stu you put together the Wee Blue Book. Help us out now by putting together a leaflet outlining what’s going on now / our wealth and so on. We’ll download, print off and deliver.”
Ruby replies ”Is there a reason why people are not posting on The Scotsman, The Herald, The Daily Record, The Evening News, The Telegraph, The Guardian and every available online newspaper forum? No need to get involved in any UniTroll flamebait/discussion just post the information and run.”
Totally agree Ruby. I didn’t mention that as I presumed that many on here already do this and complain (phone / email) to the BBC, STV, newspapers, sign petitions and so on.
I’ve been posting all over the place for quite some time now: posting facts and being polite. I continue to do so even although most of my posts disappear in the blink of an eye. I posted on the SLab site up until Jim Murphy appeared on the scene when I and a number of others were then barred. Posts to the Daily Record on the run up to the Referendum on issues such as Trident, democracy and fracking were removed in an instant.
It’s very frustrating but I continue to post all over the place in the hope that they ‘last long enough’ for someone, even one solitary person, to read and consider. I’m sure many others on here, and elsewhere, do likewise too.
@ S’Dave
“he EU referendum result has nothing to with what you think is best or worst – it everything to do with you hoping for a division between the way Scotland and England votes – because that is what you want.”
Aye right – and we’ll see just what Engerlund thinks of it if the result from Scotland is enough to swing the vote and keep Engerlund in the EU against its wishes. Yes, that’s democracy–just not when it goes against Engerlund’s wishes. We’ll see just what Engerlund thinks of UK democracy if the Scottish results forces them to stay in the EU.
There would be bedlam down south and don’t dare try and kid yourself or us otherwise. And a way would be found to ‘sort’ the result in England’s favour.
The Scottish government should just start to act as though Scotland was already independent. Nothing fancy at first; installing an offshore wind farm at the entrance to Holy Loch would be good.
Dr Jim @ 2.55 pm
He is not being tried in an ordinary court. He is being tried in an Electoral Court which is set up under the Representation of the People Act. Passed at some point in the 1980s. The legislation applies to matters relating to elections and sets out the procedures etc to be followed in the event that an Electoral Court has to be set up.
Electoral Courts are set up relatively rarely. The last time one sat up in Scotland was about 50 years ago.
So he is not up in court on a criminal charge in the usual definition of criminal that applies in courts.
It is sitting in Edinburgh because it concerns a Scottish Constituency
Taranaich says:
Hi,read your comment well done, good article.
You picked up on what I have been thinking, with that in mind that we could really shake Westminsters timbers by informing all of Scotlands people that we have this right.
If used correctly we could do anything we like in spite of Westminster’s shenanigans. If the people wish it.
This means referendums, maybe by digital voting if that is practical.
Set up properly we could cause all manner of problems for our masters.For example, tax credits,if there was a referendum on this right now,one that simply asks would you want tax credits mitigated with no negative Westmister taxes to make it un practical, it would fly past. A finger up to Westminster.
They would scream from the rafters, but if it was the will of the Scottish people, what could they do about it.
Bob Mack says:
11 November, 2015 at 12:34 pm
I live in a lovely Perthshire village with several hundred residents. I would say most residents are conservative with a small c. I talk to most of them throughout the week,and one thing is clear.They are not in ignorance of what is happening politically at this time.
———–
What confuses me about this whole thing is the attitude of Scottish Tory voters. You would think some would start to think, “Wait a minute, what’s actually going on here?”
The UK government is saying, You can replace all these welfare cuts, but only out of the blunt tool of income tax, with little other ways to grow the tax base.
The end result is Scotland becomes less competitive to England, and we gradually lose jobs and investment to England.
The whole point is to hurt the SNP and in their view, protect the union by setting up a situation where the Scottish economy weakens in comparison.
I know the name is “The Conservative and Unionist Party”
It should actually be “The English National Party”
You would think many Tory members in Scotland wouldn’t stand for it. There is a point in which anti-SNP becomes anti-Scottish.
I’ve read that 28 people were aware of the memo. Does anyone know if Carmichael has been asked to name the particular individuals, such as Mundell, Clegg and Cameron?
”Mr Mitchell also said Mr Carmichael and his special advisor Euan Rodden handed Daily Telegraph journalist Simon Johnson “a loaded revolver” in leaking him the memo.
The QC said: “It’s an oddity of the case, we have here a Liberal Democrat MP with a Liberal Democrat advisor, who wishes to launch an unguided missile into the blue and he goes to a Conservative-supporting journalist at a Conservative supporting newspaper who will use it in a manner of his choice.”
@ Liz says at 2:18 pm ….. ”I’m on twitter and am not sure if there are a large number of folk who still believe the MSM or if these people are professional trolls.”
Liz I’m sure that there will be (many) agents of the Unionist Dictatorship on Twitter posing as ordinary posters.
@ Dr Jim, it’s up to Westminster to remove Carmichael not the Court of Session. He’s f—– whatever the result.
Well it’s said ignorance is bliss, we should really admire the Labour Party for being able to fool most of the voting public during all the years they were in some kind of power here into believing we were in a union, a union of equal parts , this has been shown by recent events to be totally untrue, what we have is more or less an occupation masked with a grudging smile , in that case the Westminster Parliament should be treated as such , an occupying power, Westminster will never agree to suceed powers on anything unless forced, how do we force them? Well as shown we can’t, our MPs are ignored, out voted , we can never make them listen, as such there is no point in continuing this farce, I would call on the Scottish Government to politely refuse this obvious political trap that is The Scotland Bill, and we should be brave enough to stand by this decision, in short feck them , tell them to stick it up their Arse , we ain’t playing their f/n game , and inform the public here as to the reasons for rejection and let the people here decide by way of the upcoming election.
Petra says:
Totally agree Ruby. I didn’t mention that as I presumed that many on here already do this and complain (phone / email) to the BBC, STV, newspapers, sign petitions and so on.
Ruby replies
I presumed otherwise due to no direct links being posted to any of the newspapers mentioned in my earlier post. I presumed posting archived links was in order not to give a single click on any of these newspapers. If you go to the effort of posting archived links then presumably you would not be posting on any of these newspapers.
Sure on ‘The Scotsman’ your post risks being deleted but then posting a costly leaflet through someone’s door risks being chucked in the bucket or shoved through the shredder even faster than the UniTrolls on The Scotsman can get together to report your post.
You have to have an indepth knowledge of the T&Cs on The Scotsman and ensure you don’t say anything that could contravene these T&Cs. It’s always fun to read the email sent by The Scotsman’s moderator explaining why they have deleted your post (that is on the odd occasion that they send an email.)
My favourite was having a post deleted for ‘veiled profanity’ I used the term peepee! I nearly peepeed my pants when I read that!
Did the Daily Record tell you why they removed your posts?
I’m not sure how the Law applies to this particular Court (first time it’s been used in the last 50 years) but in run of the mill cases heard at the Court of Session if the case goes against you, you have 30 days to appeal the decision and take it to the House of Lords. If that is the case this could drag on for months or even years and cost a fortune.
PS A message to the O&S constituents who have taken out the case against Carmichael. If this case drags on and looks as though it is going to cost a fortune be rest assured that your financial backers wont let you down.
There are many angels dancing on the head of a pin in Edinburgh…
“Mr Carmichael has made many candid admissions which have been against his interests” says his defence.
Fascinating stuff! 🙂
Business over. It’s gone into determination and the judgement will be presented to the HOC in London.
Man, are they just making this up as they go along.
Re Onwards
It is already Anti Scottish and has been for some time.
The Unionist Politicians who are Scottish are also Anti Scottish.
This is because politics in Scotland has become polarised into 2 camps.
Camp 1 Pro Indy Pro Scottish
Camp 2 Anti Indy Anti Scottish
The antics displayed at Westminster during the past several days is just one example and until Scottish Unionist politicians stand with the Scottish people against the Westminster depravations then they can, with absolute certainty, be categorised and identified as Anti Scottish.
These Unionist politicians need not support the SNP; all that is required of them is to support Scotland against Westminster. It’s all rather simple and achievable if..
They have Scotland’s best interests at heart.
Carmichael case now in deliberation ,thereafter HoC so couple of months to wait.
@Petra Many thanks for your comment to the O&S, I said just the same thing to Fiona McInnes earlier , so lets all hope for the best.
@ Ruby says at 3:42 pm ”Petra says: Totally agree Ruby. I didn’t mention that as I presumed that many on here already do this and complain (phone / email) to the BBC, STV, newspapers, sign petitions and so on.”
Ruby replies ”I presumed otherwise due to no direct links being posted to any of the newspapers mentioned in my earlier post.”
Ruby I don’t post direct links. I put together my own data and post and maybe direct links or otherwise are removed before you can see them. I don’t know? I also have to find the time, which is limited, to get around as many sites as possible (including yahoo) such as right now I’m putting together an email to STV so have to be selective in picking and choosing who / what to target.
”Sure on ‘The Scotsman’ your post risks being deleted but then posting a costly leaflet through someone’s door risks being chucked in the bucket or shoved through the shredder even faster than the UniTrolls on The Scotsman can get together to report your post.”
Well I reckoned that not everyone accesses the Internet, in particular the elderly who are amongst the highest percentage of no voters, and that posting leaflets would be helpful in this case. The money spent would be well worth it if it helped push towards us getting another, at least, 10% of the Electoral vote.
”Did the Daily Record tell you why they removed your posts?”
No NEVER at all. In the lead up to the Referendum all decent posts, especially those backed up with valid references, were being removed as quickly as you posted them. I used to keep copies and constantly repost. This related to all pro-Independence supporters. At times it was hilarious as the only comments on view were from the same 2/3 Anti-Indy posters.
I also used to email, often, to the comments section of the Daily Record and not one of my ‘comments’ was ever published (or of any of my friends). 90% of comments were from anti-Indy and those from so-called pro-Indy were often ridiculous / obscure. I often wondered if wee Chrichton (or cohort) sat and actually put together most of the comments. Between one thing and another the propaganda machine was working away at all levels and still is.
Ach well the decision to go to London. London where files are lost or relegated to the dustbin of history.
I wonder how much today’s proceedings helped Tavish show trial Scott.
OT: Just a reminder that the film makers fundraiser only has 16hrs to go and are short of c£7.5 grand.
link to indiegogo.com
Posted by Jock Campbell. 11th November 2015. (Jock Scot Blog.)
*
How Westminster (not the UK) will end.
With the UK 2015 election decided, there’s a lot of speculation circulating about what the outcomes will be. Since 1989, I’ve been studying the behaviour of UK governments closely with regards to the future of the UK and the Scottish independence issue and have observed clear indications that the end of Westrminster dominion is predetermined and will be delivered very soon.
What is not understood about the issue, is that Westminster had accepted the demise of its dominion back in the early 90s. It all began with a Scottish political bloc signing a document called the “Claim of Right for Scotland”in 1989. It was effectively a cross-party agreement that, if so pushed, they would all be willing to assert Scotland’s right to full sovereign independence. It was an act that piqued my interest and had me watching very carefully from then on. Most interesting was the fact that it was done on the quiet and the list of signatories to it kept out of the public domain. Why? Because Scotland’s Labour MPs had (almost to a man) signed it. A seemingly bizarre move for a party that apparently supported Westminster rule!
The plot thickened when the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly was created in 1990… a forum designed to investigate a solution to the Northern Ireland issues, particularly considering the unrest that was now becoming a serious threat to Downing Street. The only plausible explanation for this and a dozen other coincidentally unusual diplomatic moves, was that Westminster was now seriously planning a resolution to UK political problems, and since Northern Ireland is a dominion of that state, there would have to be negotiations on NI’s future before such constitutional revision could take place.
Why did this happen? Throughout the 80s, the world’s political bodies had been putting a huge amount of pressure on the UK government to resolve the Northern Ireland issue democratically and to address the democratic deficit that existed within the UK political landscape; namely that the Scottish electorate were outnumbered some twelve-to-one by the English electorate, a situation that was untenable in a union supposedly consisting of two equal partners in a bilateral agreement, which the 1707 Act of Union indeed was. Basically the game was up, Westminster had no option but to negotiate diplomatically with the rest of the state’s political representations and resolve the outstanding democratic problems within the kingdom’s borders. Effectively, the days of London dominance were over.
The negotiations that took place through the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly led to the Good Friday Agreement- effectively an agreement on how Northern Ireland would be handled in the course of the UK’s revision and a framework agreed between all sides on how the end of the UK would be delivered. But the public wasn’t told that. We were left thinking that merely some compromise had been reached with the IRA. Nonetheless, the IRA surrendered the fight, Sinn Fein (the IRA’s political wing) entered the mainstream political arena. Alex Salmond of the SNP was suddenly a TV personality. Something was afoot!
Devolution followed for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. This allowed the formation of a new political foundation to establish itself in Scotland, ready in time for the final move to full statehood. And then came a move that was buried in a media maelstrom of financial revision reportage that hid the real agenda behind it- the decision by Gordon Brown to make the Bank of England independent of government. This could mean only one thing- that the powers had agreed behind closed doors that while the political estabnlishment would indeed split, a Sterling currency union would continue with the currency being managed by a politically-independent triumvirate of bank governors charged solely with the management of the currency itself. This move told me Scotland and England were preparing for independent sovereign statehood.
Some will be under the impression that the referendum held last September settled the issue with the return of a “no” vote. On the contrary, the referendum was in fact a ruse designed to generate a political groundshift in Scotland. Why? Because Scotland needed a kick up the backside! Scotland was stuck in an electoral rut, voting repeatedly for Labour MPs despite there being an obvious solution to their dissatisfaction with London’s policies- a vote for the SNP! Something was needed to swing the public’s vote. Cue the referendum.
The referendum result that was declared was a fallacy. It contradicted every piece of observable evidence on the ground (town halls filled with politically-motivated Scots who entered those debates on the subject already with a strongly positive attitude towards independence and leaving those debates with even stronger convictions that they would vote “Yes” on the day). What followed was one the most devious acts of political chicanery ever witnessed… the declaration of a “No” victory. But why? The truth is that no referendum can deliver independence. Referenda are not constitutionally-recognised mechanisms for delivering change in a representative democracy. They are advisory only. Their results can be used as political leverage in parliamentary debates but the results themselves cannot generate legislative change. The only mechanism for delivering constitutional change is due parliamentary process, meaning the election of MPs to parliament who then assert their collective will to make such changes. Where political policy is concerned, all those with a seat in the House of Commons have a vote on legislative matters. Generally, this is also the case with constitutional matters.
However, there is another route open to delivering constitutional revision and that is one enshrined in UK and international law… that the members of parliament who represent EITHER Scotland or England can, at their respective national behest, declare for a withdrawal from Westminster if they deem it in the interests of their electorates. Basically, Scotland’s 59 MPs have always had the right to leave Westminster, it was only a question of whether they had the will- and the motivation- to do so!
But of course, we needed the right group of politicians holding those 59 seats to enact this right. That’s where the referendum was used to shift attitudes towards the SNP and deliver the right people for the job… the SNP.
So, here we are seeing the result of that political ground-shift… Scotland has returned a landslide majority to the SNP, delivering 56 of its candidates to Westminster, all thanks to the shock that was delivered by the earlier referendum result. The SNP now hold the sovereign will of the Scottish nation in their hands. With the Westminster parties dominating the Westminster chamber and outnumbering the Scottish representation some twelve-to-one, they will prevent the SNP from having a voice in the parliament, meaning Scotland’s voice is not heard in any meaningful manner and demonstrating to all concerned that Westminster simply doesn’t work as a democratic entity.
Proceedings will clearly show the democratic deficit that exists in the UK political system. The British public and indeed the world will be witness to what will effectively be a stonewalling of Scotland’s democratically-elected sovereign representation. This fractious situation will create the perfect scenario in which the Scottish representative bloc, those 59 MPs, may declare for the disbandment of the Westminster parliament… all with Her Majesty’s blessing.
The specific scenario I see triggering this Scottish move, I believe, will be a move by Westminster to close the Scottish parliament. The Holyrood parliament, having been established as a result of the collective will of the Scottish nation, should only face disbandment on the basis of a Scottish national mandate to end its remit. Should Westminster attempt to force such a closure against the protestations of our sovereign representation, it is highly conceivable that those 59 representatives will abandon Westminster, and given the manner in which Westminster is currently ramping up the anti, don’t be surprised if such a scenario comes far sooner than expected…
My speculative Scottish Independence Day? April 6th 2016.
References:
Alex Salmond’s hints:
link to theguardian.com
link to independent.co.uk
The Gregg Centre for the study of war and society: link to journals.hil.unb.ca
“Since the 1970s, Irish governments have had two aims in relation to Northern Ireland and the United States. The first has been to discourage Irish-Americans from contributing to the Irish Republican Army (IRA). The second has been to interest US administrations in the Northern Ireland issue.10 British governments, regarding Northern Ireland as an internal matter, regarded the second activity as an unwelcome intrusion. Matters changed fundamentally in the run-up to the 1985 Anglo-Irish Agreement, when President Ronald Reagan was persuaded to tell British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher that he viewed a developing Anglo-Irish relationship favorably.11 The Agreement itself, in which the British government ceded a consultative role to the Irish government in the running of Northern Ireland, was very much a British response to mounting international criticism of its record in Northern Ireland.”
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I assume these ‘journalists’ read Wings.
Wonder if they are bit embarrassed or did they all go to same journo finishing school.
Could you apply same cut and paste job on pro indy journalists?
Don’t think so and that is because they come from all walks of political life not one unlike these right wing unionist tories (including Duncan!!!).
Carmichael’s defence is still concentrating on the leak and the motivations for it.
It still remains a fact that as a document dealing with a foreign power it would have been considered confidential as far as the Official Secrets Act goes. I’d be surprised if it ever goes to court but you never know.
However that’s a diversion from what is the issue at hand. That he denied knowledge of the leak or his part in it in order to gain election. It’s already been decided by the judges that lying about your own actions can lead to your election being voided.
@Taranaich
Good post, I think the SNP definitely has to keep momentum on the constitution at the Scottish elections, instead of getting dragged into a traditional left/right contest on income tax that could split the vote.
John Curtice is proposing another referendum for Scots to accept or reject the Scotland bill:
link to web.archive.org
I think the SNP should take this up, and add a second option with more added powers. for example, Land Tax, VAT allocation, CGT, tax on dividends, shared energy policy, fuel and alcohol duty, minimum wage, personal allowances, Tax reliefs, Tax credits.
We don’t have the House of Lords to make amendments, but we do have the Scottish people.
Put the 2 options up against each other:
The Scotland bill as proposed, or the ‘enhanced Scotland bill’ with more powers to grow the tax base.
I would like to see independence as an option also, but the danger is that it is open to boycotts and seen as disrespecting last years vote. Realistically we will have to wait a few years and settle out devolution first.
The referendum result didn’t show the extent to which Scots want Devo Max. Nor did 56 SNP MP’s at Westminster.
All we hear about is that 55% wanted to stay in the UK and they must be respected. What we need is a clear public vote specifically on the extent of more powers.
Then there is a democratic mandate, which if ignored could be seen as a trigger point for independence.
Of course, independence is still the ultimate aim. But I think worthwhile devolution makes it more likely compared to hobbled devolution where our economy suffers.
UK Democracy is brain dead. Only the political life-support machine keeps up the appearance that democracy in the UK is still alive and kicking.
In GE15, Scotland sent 56 democratically elected SNP MP’s to Westminster where they are subject to unionist contempt and ridicule, and where their voice and vote counts for nothing. Is that democracy? More like Unionist Autocracy.
I think by now most people in Scotland understand that neo-liberal ‘democracy’ is a pretence. It’s object is to fool the population into believing that they have a say; to underline the widespread belief that ‘the people will decide’.
Neo-Liberalism has been the prevailing economic force in UK politics since the Thatcher Era. Through the years it has grown from strength to strength and is now dominant in most developed countries.
Furthermore, to think that ballots in the UK are ‘fair & square’ is tantamount to believing that ‘Jack and the Beanstalk’ is a true story.
Authentic democracy excludes the idea of ‘fixing’ or ‘rigging’ the vote, and yet it is well known that one party in particular, has been ‘manipulating’ elections in Scotland for decades through all kinds of little tricks, the best known of which is probably postal voting. PV is so open to manipulation that it has been widely decried, but yet it remains in use.
And yet many, if not the majority, continue to believe that ‘we are a democratic country’.
Many believe, for example, that the Independence Referendum was ‘fair and square’; that it was ‘democratic’ and MUST be respected as the settled will of the Scottish people. What is ‘democratic’ about a campaign of Fear & Smear targeting vulnerable voters.
If men with guns outside polling stations in Africa is undemocratic, then what is men in the UK with threats and warnings on the Government controlled TV in your living room? Both seek to induce fear in targeted vulnerable voters and to coerce them to vote only one way.
False beliefs about ‘democracy’ remains one of the biggest obstacles to Independence, and it exists even at the top of the political pyramid in Holyrood.
Vote SNP/SNP for Scottish Democracy, made wi’ girders.
Whilst attending the SNP Conference in Aberdeen last month myself and a group of friends popped into the Prince of Wales Pub for a wee libation.
Lo and behold a gaggle of British Media Reps all in a huddle over a pint, gossiping and whispering, around a dozen of them.
Cochers, Buzzfeed, Gardham, all trying to not be noticed!
Wonder if this is how they all keep to the script?
Meet up weekly to socialise and compare notes and agree on the angle for next days article.
What is the collective name for a group of journo’s?
The S.N.P.exists for Scottish independence so any one who votes for them knows that well I say 56mps out of59 is a mandate for independence no ref 2 required
JamesCaithness says:
Well GCHQ has removed all your links to your article, which was excellent.
JamesCaithness
None of the three evidential links work. Can you supply the correct links as it’s be interesting to read further background.
Thanks in advance
Proud Cybernat 3.12
You wrote “There would be bedlam down south and don’t dare try and kid yourself or us otherwise. And a way would be found to ‘sort’ the result in England’s favour.”
… how many labour governments have we had that the south of England didn’t vote for? Where was the bedlam? Anyway, the issue it hand is whether the UK will vote to Stay or Leave. I think it is too close to call at the moment.
I agree with those who say we should reject the Scotland Bill as not fulfilling the Smith Commission
Proposals.
It is a poisoned chalice anyway, which can only be used to mitigate Tory cuts by increasing taxes or cutting other services in Scotland, with the effect of making the SNP unpopular.
This is the trap set for us by Westminster.
If you agree I advise you to do what I am doing and write to your MP and MSP urging rejection. We will be abused by the MSM whatever we do anyway.
@ JamesCaithness says:4:39 pm
Posted by Jock Campbell. 11th November 2015. (Jock Scot Blog.)
A very, very interesting read James and thank you for bringing it to the blog.
I have a spanner in the works – the 2008 financial crash and the subsequent crippling UK government/ personal/ business debt of between 4 and 6 trillion.
Scottish Independence is no longer affordable for Westminster. But I could be wrong.
@Legerwood
Many thanks
Lanarkist.
Collective noun for journalists.
A Sphincter?
I wish to add to earlier posts that the Orkney and Shetland petitioners need not worry about escalating legal costs. I know that we will rally round as always.
Very little on the BBC news about it. I think it was about the fourth item at 1pm. Imagine if it had been a court case against Alex or Nicola. There would have been wall to wall coverage for weeks.
Westminster treats us with contempt so it’s only fair we should treat its Bill with contempt. Labour in Scotland is fast becoming an irrelvance like the LibDums. Scotland’s politics at all levels will soon be a straightforward matter of voting for a pro-independence party of an anti-independence party.
manandboy at 4:50 pm
Top post!
Lanaskist at 4:51
How about “a midden of journos” or is that too polite?
@ Lanarkist 4:51pm
A jizzism of journos?
osakisushi says:
11 November, 2015 at 4:57 pm
JamesCaithness
None of the three evidential links work. Can you supply the correct links as it’s be interesting to read further background.
Thanks in advance
Ruby replies
link to tinyurl.com
link to tinyurl.com
link to tinyurl.com
@ Lanarkist, 4.50 pm
A “spincycle” of journos would be my suggestion. Keeping it polite, obviously.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
10 November, 2015 at 9:59 pm
FFA,devo Max,Federalism are all complicated impediments and work for the opposition
The one good thing about income tax devolution is that it builds loyalty to Scotland. Once our personal taxes are going to Edinburgh, I think people will want more.
No doubt there will be more of an urge to buy Scottish products as it doesn’t just support Scottish jobs – but because the resulting income taxes will be paying for schools and hospitals right here in Scotland.
Just think of going into a supermarket and one packet of mushrooms has a union jack, and the other has a Scottish flag.
That will take on a whole new meaning.
Once that direct connection is established in the public eye, then the other powers are likely to follow.
The proposed tax powers are very limited, but we have to bear in mind the unionists didn’t want to even go that far, and were forced because of the referendum. That’s why income tax wasn’t devolved from the start. They know it is just the starting point. This process is only going one way.
Blair Paterson 4:53 pm
You wrote “The S.N.P.exists for Scottish independence so any one who votes for them knows that well I say 56mps out of59 is a mandate for independence no ref 2 required.
… it would have been if it had been in the SNP manifesto – but it wasn’t.
Collective noun for journalists? For the ones we’re thinking of, how about a rhumba of rattlesnakes?
@ manandboy
Spot on! very well put indeed.
Let’s crush these bar stewards next time round.
A repeat of journos?
Lanarkist asked:
“What is the collective name for a group of journalists?
Certainly, if they are Scottish football writers, the group is generally considered to be A Bevvy.
Ruby – this next bit is about sport
With regard to Gary 45%’s O/T post about Stuart Lancaster’s resignation from the England RU coaching job being all the fault of the SNP.
Maybes aye – Lancaster, after all, did play for Scottish Universities, so, he therefore came under under Jock influence, which clearly affected his ability to coach England, rather more than having a bunch of fat, shite, over-rated prima donnas in his squad did.
Petra @ 4.24 pm
I think you underestimate the elderly and their computer/internet literacy.
I have an aunt who is 98 and she has a Facebook page. She has been using email for at least 15 years. She was the first person who ever sent me an electronic Christmas card. She is not alone in that age group to be computer savvy. They have children, grand-children great-grandchildren who keep them up to speed.
I know someone who teaches computer classes in the local library. Lots of 80 year olds wanting to learn. One of his oldest ‘students’ was in his 90s. He wanted to learn how to use the internet so that he could order his groceries on-line in case the day came when he could no longer get out and about.
Worth remembering too that computers started to appear in the workplace in the 1970s so most if not all of those in their 60s will be well used to computers and a lot of those in their 70s too.
Most of the people I know in those age groups have smartphone and tablets – and get really miffed if they go on holiday and there is no Wi-Fi. I was on holiday twice this year with people who spanned the age groups from 60 upwards and the majority had their tablets and/or smartphone.
So be careful about generalising about senior citizens and their computer skills. They are more savvy than you give them credit for.
Apart from that I agree with you about engaging with people through what ever medium is available and said so in reply to one of your posts on another thread.
Giving Goose @ 4:17pm
You are spot on.
Unionist politicians need to get their priorities sorted out. Both and Holyrood and WM.
They don’t have to back the SNP unless it is in common ground, they don’t need to become pro-Indy …. however they do need to start putting their constituents’ interests ahead of the interests of WM and the Union.
At present they appear to support central party, the UK Establishment and the Union to the complete exclusion of those who voted for them.
Given that the United Kingdom Parliament has now admitted openly it is the English Parliament I was wondering if any of our clever history guys (Mr Peffers) might know this
How many countries that were in the “British Empire” have gained Independence from England without some kind of punitive or military action being taken against them
If there are any, how did they do it?
Hey folks – I’ve been sitting watching comments for a wee while before commenting myself.
Right we all know the Scotland bill is shite. It is not “the vow” as promised before the refurendum. Cameron went straight to war the day after with EVEL so am not surprised at this garbage that’s been going on.
But not we have may 2016 to look forward too. Even if Scotland votes 75% SNP it doesn’t matter and flying fcuk as Westminster still has the power to rule over Scotland.
So who’s looking forward to the debates coming up for the 2016 Scottish elections?
I predict it’s going to be all out SNP attack by the media stooges – ponsonby talking shite about refurendum with a unionist audience to boo on command. Kez asking what is the SNP going to do with the powers from “the vow”. Ruthie the liar going on about schools and willie useless nobody Rennie Moaning about the police.
Interestingly STV has clearly laid out its stance with you look at the Carmichael case being reported under “Scotland decides” I mean it’s got no right to be under that title. It should be under the title of politics Westminster news or something but there still trying to make it about the refurendum.
This whole thing is pish actually.
We need to escape this Union asap
liz, I’m afraid this isn’t logical at all:
“So the logical conclusion to that is The Scotland bill which has not delivered what was promised should be one of those triggers.”
Any statement that includes the word “should” is a statement of opinion underpinned by a value judgement.
I may or not agree with your opinion but it is opinion.
As for the talk of “triggers”, I find the whole approach by Sturgeon quite perturbing.
I’ll be up front and say that I am not impressed by Sturgeon’s leadership right now and the fact the her personal approval ratings are so high, to my mind, is cause for concern rather than celebration.
The ominous silence of the last few days is more than disappointing. What happened in the Commons on Monday was a disgrace. It feels like we were led into a fight and our leaders stood back and said nothing as we got a thrashing.
Salmond has also been unusually quiet and the only possible positive explanation is that they are keeping their powder dry and on the cusp of making some sort of move.
If they are, I hope that they know the people of this country are fuming and ready to respond as required.
This whole situation (and the outlook going forward) has never looked so bleak. Mark my words, in the next few weeks Barnett will be dismantled before your eyes and we will face a hailstorm of abuse and lies about us “getting more than we deserve”, “scrounging”, etc. — and “well you basically have FFA now so it makes sense that we dismantle Barnett”.
sensibledave says:
11 November, 2015 at 2:12 pm
Heedy 12.03
You wrote “What me or any Scot thinks about the EU is irrelevant sensibledave. Its up to England to decide.!
Read (and then have a fight with) yesindyref2 at 1.08
No need. Anyway its fun to see how the minority party toryboy thinks he can dictate online like this.
CON 36.9% ast UKOK GE! Yet here you are, wreaking havoc, running up even bigger UKOK debt than the red toryboys, stripping away civil liberties, spying on everyone, dumping your pointless WMD’s in my country, impoverishing millions of people, making super rich tax evaders even richer and lets not go into specifics of English NHS crises, medic strikes, bankrupt hospitals, kids charged a fortune for uni, destroying renewable energy industry, about to drag Scotland out of the EU or monster Scotland for not voting how we’re told and so on, etc, toryboy etc, sensible.
SO don’t tell me what to do sensibledave 2.
PS.
Say hi to sensibledave 1 for me sensibledave 2. He threw a very funny toryboy tantrum last week, so he’s probably back to tea boy again?
Thank you Ruby.
I found this on my travels across the internet. I am not sure if it comes to pass but it will be interesting when 6th April comes round. Funny enough 6th April would be end of financial year.
There are things which springs to mind, one of those things are would they be willing to let us go while they still want trident and Subs up the Clyde.
Time will tell but I liked what was written. I also was in my MPs office today after leafletting, I was a bit down because of other night, but heard things from our team which gave me hope. Along the lines of our MPs are making a great impression with the wider world’s political people and ambassadors.
So left feeling much better.
Or, “never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.”
Westminster committed cataclysmic mistake after cataclysmic mistake since the referendum from the moment Cameron chose to talk about how it’s time for England’s voice to be heard; the smears against the SNP as “radicalising,” “dangerous,” and comparisons to terrorists and dictatorships during the election campaign; placing more English Tories on the Scottish Affairs committee than Scots of any party; excluding Scottish MPs from the Human Rights Committee; voting down amendment after amendment of the Scotland Bill; the open and inexcusable insults from members of Parliament against not just the SNP, but the people of Scotland themselves.
We’ll only get a thrashing if we don’t wise up, and realise there’s only one way to make sure the Tories can never hurt Scotland again.
Why are so many of us feeding sensibledave? Starve the son-of-a-bitch to death.
Collective noun suggestions for U Journos.
A Mendacity.
An Asylum.
A Clusterf**K
A W**kstain.
A Haver.
An Unpride.
An Amorality.
A Ucockery.
A Psychosis.
A Cesspit.
… he didn’t throw a tantrum Heedy, he simply realised he was wasting his time communicating with a pair of nut jobs. He should have known better.
As far as your boring final paragraph is concerned Heedy, and as I have told you before, I am Spartacus! … and there is but one of me. You may wish to believe that only a group of people could produce such eloquent, decisive prose – and I will take that as a compliment.
Now, could you do me a favour?
Could you completely ignore what I have just written and “cut and paste” some of your impenetrable language together in random form to make them look like paragraphs and post them pretending they are relevant to the subject in hand. Go on. You know you want to!
O/T
One thing that puzzles me about the postal vote is the amount of time between when the paper can be posted and the election. After all we don’t use horses for mail delivery anymore.
Surely it only needs to be a week – and I’m sure it’s possible to find ways round the few instances where a longer time would be necessary.
Free Scotland *nods head*
OT.
Wow, great response to collective noun for a grouping of Journalists.
Off the scale. Makes my idea of A Junta of Journalistscseem quite tame.
It more describes the nefarious secret shuffling behaviour I was witness to in Aberdeen.
As soon as they noticed that we had clocked them they drank up and slicked outside.
Must admit that we noised them up a bit as they slid past us, eyes down, checking for pennies!
Some very good posts folks, I’m enjoying them.
Re Carmichael, he’s an absolute disgrace, and a lying toerag to boot, by his own admission. But I won’t be surprised he gets away with it. It’ll be a bigger surprise should he get booted.
Collective noun for journo’s, a lamentation, cause it’s awe they iver dae. or a bawbaggery.
sensibledave says:
It was a tantrum sensibledave 2 but I salute your indefatigability. And its nice to see you lot keep an eye on each others work.
Lets face it sensibledave 2, if the UK had an actual democratic parliament like the one you were stupid enough to give Scotland 97′ and the whole UKOK media wasn’t such a corrupt lying bunch of toryboy BBC shills, placemen and Andrew Neils, you toryboys wouldn’t get near government again, just like what’s happened in Scotland.
And if Westminster ever does become an actual PR parliament with an elected upper house, toryboy world would end up like it is in Scotland, a ridiculous anachronism led by stuffed shirts.
Which is why PR democracy will never happen in England, because the red tories are just as venal and corrupt as the blue ones.
As in this absurdity of UKOK right to reign over us
link to twitter.com
A ‘BIAS’ OF JOURNALIST…
@Chic M
Too fierce
A misdirection of journalists 🙂
@Lanarkist
There is probably an argument for not having a collective noun, in fact need there be a plural ?
It’s all regurgitation of press releases and plagarisim.
If there is one journalist, or many, the output across all media would probably be same! 🙂
JamesCaithness says:
11 November, 2015 at 6:01 pm
Thank you Ruby.
Ruby replies
No problem. I don’t know what happened to your links perhaps they were too long. I figured out what they were and fed them into
http://tinyurl.com
My next little online project might be to find out what the wider world’s press are saying about the SNP & the UK Gov.
Writing a collective noun for journalist’s’, bad time for a typo..
Also try,
A ‘whole cover-up’ of journalists.
Or,
An ‘unfotunate discovery of’ journalists.
Re. Tavish in Shetland
Furious he was at being called as a witness, I don’t think he did know anything about the leak and was angry at being call. Guilty by association indeed. He was right, he shouldn’t have been called
Mundell should have been called.
Little birds told me that Shetland voted snp in May, it was Orkney who swung it
I think tavish was sacrificed on the alter of unionism, since he was on his way out
Mundell will have sighed a huge sigh of relief this week.
Let’s face it. Cameron & the Unionist Crew are not taking the Scotland Bill at all seriously and this is consistent with their attitude to the Vow. In fact, their whole attitude toward Scotland leaves a lot to be desired, no change there.
Could it be that we are taking Westminster too seriously, given what is coming from their side. Showing too much respect in the face of Unionist contempt.
Since Scotland and England are partners in the Union, then perhaps the 56 should adopt the disposition of a partner, and not that of a lackey. Alex certainly does this, but I’d like to see a lot more of it from the 56. But where I’d really like to see it is in the people of Scotland.
Two million No voters basically said, ‘we cannae look after oorselves, kin you English wans no dae it fur us. You’re bett’r than we ur. Gaun, you dae it.’
Two million puir wee sleekit cowerin’ timorous beasties; oh what a panic’s in thy breastie at the sicht o’ a’ they english wans. Wull ye no pul yer soaks up!
Independence first. Then the referendum.
Heedy 6.29
… well done Heedy! Mission Accomplished! Haha!
sensibledave says:
11 November, 2015 at 6:44 pm
Heedy 6.29
😀
See you tomorrow sensible.
O/T links
link to news.stv.tv
link to sundaypost.com
link to archive.is
Carmichael’s QC did a lot of wafflin’. Like he was trying to persuade the judges that a turd was in fact a sausage.
I’d wager the judges know a turd when they smell it, just like the rest of Scotland does.
As the judges in the HMRC/EBT case said:- ‘rather obvious’ and ‘common sense’.
Carmichael’s going down.
Lots of clever suggestion for a collection of journalists.
My suggestion is very simple
A bag of journalists.
Everyone could then add their own prefix ie scum, sleaze, baw, douche, flea, wind, rag, rat, tea
Oh goodness there are loads to choose from.
Taranaich, no offence intended, I appreciate your response and I usually find what you say illuminating, but it seems to me there’s a contradiction in sayin “never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake” and then going on to conclude with “we’ll only get a thrashing if we don’t wise up, and realise there’s only one way to make sure the Tories can never hurt Scotland again.”
On one hand you seem to be suggesting we do nothing and on the other suggesting we do something (without saying what exactly).
Apply the logic of “never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake” logic to burglars or just about any other transgressive behaviour and it sounds like a recipe for being walked all over.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt then and assume you are wrong.
Whether I am right or wrong can be verified as follows: in the next 2 or 3 weeks I will guarantee you they move towards dismantling Barnett.
@Paula Rose at 6:15 pm
This one’s for you.
link to tinyurl.com
How about,
A Commode of journalists.
dakk says:
11 November, 2015 at 7:04 pm
How about,
A Commode of journalists.
Ruby replies
LOL I like your line of thought.
A cludgie of journalists!
A chanty of journalists!
manandboy says:
11 November, 2015 at 6:53 pm
Carmichael’s QC did a lot of wafflin’
The poor man had a very difficult job! I watched if for a couple of minutes and switched off.
link to shetnews.co.uk
Taranaich @ 6.05 . Great post …….. Aye , silence after Monday Night ….. Even STV dropped Monday Nights “Scotland Tonight “.
Larfed at Kaye’s Morning Moanin, Guests Hothersall, Prof John Curtice, and Jonathan Shafi.
(Shafi got only one chance to speak) Kaye turned to Hothersall and Prof Curtice to tell the Listeners the Scotland Bill was fine and dandy………. Reveallingly, their answers never got past relying on The Smith Comission
If the SNP are responsible for everything that’s wrong in the country and Nicola Sturgeon must answer for it how come we have to hear from everybody else but Nicola Sturgeon
It seems she has to heal everybody, teach everybody, police everybody but the one job she doesn’t get asked to do by all these “Journalists”, opposing politicians, union leaders and every other little upstart with a badge , is to actually be allowed on the Telly to talk to the electorate she’s supposedly letting down
Every day either in print or on TV I see and hear
Jackie Baillie, Willie Rennie, Alex Johnstone, Kezia Dugdale, Jenny Marra, Tavish Scott, Wee Pearson the ex Polis and a whole raft of others complaining about the First Minister and that’s not even starting on the list of TV “Journalists” and newsreaders
So instead of all these aforementioned moaners on a daily basis, how about, is it not time for a “State of the Nation” type address every once in a while, after all If Idjits like Gordon Brown are paid such deference to, and Cameron’s never off the Telly spouting about all the good he’s doing for us
Why should Scotlands First Minister not be accorded the courtesy of at least as much uninterrupted time as any of these are
Wouldn’t it be a great idea to see and hear someone we actually voted FOR…
How about an Ordure of Journalists – slightly better than cludgie!
Carmichael case: I heard Bernard Ponsonby say that Mitchell QC had, lately, put forward ‘evidence / data’ that wasn’t outlined in the original missive so may not be accepted by Lady Paton / Lord Matthews. If not accepted this could (probably would) impact on the petitioners winning their case.
@ Nan 6:52pm
Interesting link Nana. Another example of Big Brother …. ”If a fine is outstanding (TV license or Council Tax) they are given an opportunity to pay it or they are arrested and prevented from leaving the country.”
link to sundaypost.com
”The UK Government’s E-Borders initiative and the Immigration Act 2014 allow a greater sharing of information between the police and third parties, facilitating more in-depth checks ….
“I would urge anyone who is currently subject to an outstanding fine or warrant and preparing to embark on a trip to address the matter urgently to ensure you are not inconvenienced and can fully enjoy your break.”
Police Scotland would not be drawn on the numbers of people being stopped at the country’s exit ports. More than 100 million passengers depart through the UK’s airports, sea ports and international rail terminals annually, while more than 200,000 people were prosecuted for non-payment of their TV licences last year.
Anyone found guilty of evading the licence fee is given a criminal record and can be fined up to £1,000. People who fail to pay the fine can be jailed ………
However, its remit has been extended to flag up people who have not paid their TV licence ……
With around 80% of trips currently being monitored, the peak summer 2015 holiday getaway period could prove worrying for people who have dodged the £145 a year colour licence fee, especially as the UK Government plans to introduce blanket exit checks and wants this introduced by spring.
“The police and immigration officers are jointly working to ensure the law is carried out to the letter,” said a source. “The Immigration Act 2014 requires transport carriers to collect passengers’ personal information and provide this to immigration and law enforcement authorities in advance of travel.
“Staff in the National Border Targeting Centre use this record of travellers passing through UK ports to conduct security checks on travellers, in order to identify persons of interest to the immigration authorities and police.”
Passengers who have repeatedly refused to pay their fines or turn up in court are being tackled at Scottish airports and presented with their fines to be paid on exit. If they refuse, they will be arrested.
“Glasgow Airport is already rolling out the initiative,” added the insider. “Police Scotland has detained a number of people who were planning to exit the country who have had warrants issued for non-payment of their TV licences and council tax. If a fine is outstanding, they are given an opportunity to pay it or they are arrested and prevented from leaving the country.”
A Stench of Journalists
A Coven of jounos as they all stir their facts in a pot and come out with sludge at the end.
A Coven of jounos as they all stir their facts in a pot and come out with sludge at the end.
A column, of 2nd rate journalists.
A Scourge of Journalists.
Dorothy Devine says:
11 November, 2015 at 7:26 pm
How about an Ordure of Journalists – slightly better than cludgie!
Ruby replies
😀
Ach Dorothy that’s a bit too French, too posh, too friccassee, too ragout & too olio
Nothing wrong with cludgie.
What about a mobocracy of journalists, latrine, jape, clutter, lavatory, joke, vociferation, jip, chaos or jabber. You could go on forever with this!
Last Night on Scotland Today, John Mackay and then Colin Mackay both said that the call to police re the M9 crash was a 999 call. It wasn’t, it was a 101 non emergency call about a car off the road. I tweeted both of them; only John Mackay replied, saying it wasn’t a lie (I had suggested it had been) but an error and that it would be corrected. I watched the full programme tonight, hey guess what, no correction. Plus they managed to relegate the Carmichael trial to third in the running order, even Reporting Scotland made it their top story. They are getting to be as bad, and sometimes even worse than the BBC.
Many folks, including myself, regularly bemoan the fact that there is little good coverage of what really happened in the indy referendum, and how effectively the state propagandist broadcaster, the BBC, lied on a daily basis.
Now we all have a chance to do something about this. G.A.Ponsonby, has documented and written at length on ALL the blatant misreporting and biased propaganda which the BBC produced in the run up to the referendum. There is now a plan to make a proper professional documentary on all of it. This is important.
I like others am aware, that nary a day goes by when there is something needing funded, but I do think this documentary will stand as a lasting authoritative account of just how much of a propaganda role the BBC played.
If you can, even just a wee amount, please give to the funding campaign, it only has a few hours to go. We will collectively kick ourselves if we miss this opportunity to have a proper record of what happened made for all to see.
Funding page is at
link to indiegogo.com
This will form a lasting record to counteract the lies found elsewhere.
Gordon Brown mentions Thatcher ever so called major speech he does
strangely enough it’s it a fondness reminisce sort of way
He’s a Thatcher Like
A “Sewage Of Journalists” I can almost smell them from here
For Scotland, a “cringe” of journalists.
OT
Beware.
It has come to light that some refrigerator companies have been in collusion with energy companies and some refrigerator lights do not go out when the door is closed. This could be costing you over £100 per year.
Please check and share.
sensibledave@6.12
So there is a sensibledave and a sensibledave2. I bet you have at least two youtube accounts under two different email addresses so you can upvote each of your youtube accounts comments and at the same time write glowing praises to your other self. Is that not what you call a split personality?
Keep those appointments with your shrink.
Stephen.
@Alistair.
Had to put a rather big hole in the fridge door to check,but seems ok so far.
@Robert Louis
I agree, donated a while back.
link to indiegogo.com
Alistair at 8.15.
As a child i would open and close the frig door to check that the light went out. My dad caught me out and then he showed me the contact switch just below the regulator. So with the door open i could check that the light went out. Another conspiracy theory bites the dust!
@ Harry McAye says at 7:51 pm
”Last Night on Scotland Today, John Mackay and then Colin Mackay both said that the call to police re the M9 crash was a 999 call. It wasn’t, it was a 101 non emergency call about a car off the road. I tweeted both of them; only John Mackay replied, saying it wasn’t a lie (I had suggested it had been) but an error and that it would be corrected. I watched the full programme tonight, hey guess what, no correction. Plus they managed to relegate the Carmichael trial to third in the running order, even Reporting Scotland made it their top story. They are getting to be as bad, and sometimes even worse than the BBC.”
Spot on Harry. I’ve been following the News and taking note of what’s going on and totally agree that they are probably worse than the BBC now.
They haven’t reported the Labour voting fiasco and focus constantly on Scotland’s many ‘problems’ …. on a par with the Daily Record …. doom and gloom EVERY night with not one positive thing to say about Scotland.
They broadcast Scott MacTavish’s spin on the Carmichael Case ‘Nationalists behind it’ and so on. He wasn’t asked to explain himself and no one else such as one of the O&S constituent complainants was interviewed to counter his comments.
They are constantly promoting the Scotland Bill, Vow as being fulfilled and affording people like Mundell and Murray airtime to repeat their ‘Scotland will have the most powerfully devolved Parliament in the World’ mantra. I’ve never heard them quote figures such as Westminster having control over 70% of taxes and 85% of Welfare, that one SNP Scotland Bill amendment after another was knocked back, no Scot on the Human Rights Committee, Scottish Parliament still not truly permanent etc etc etc.
I’ve yet to hear them report on the many oil and gas licenses that have been handed out to the majors, in the last couple of months or so, or mention recent oil finds.
Tonight the big issue was that Scotlands unemployment rate is higher than Englands. This was followed by a number of people discussing the oil sector and council job losses … and SNP involvement … Baaad. No mention of Westminsters cuts impacting on council budgets or the fact that if we had an oil fund job losses could have been minimised to some extent. No mention that we’ll have even greater levels of unemployment soon due to sneaky Westminster hammering the renewable energy sector in Scotland whilst planning to help countries in the EU.
I’m absolutely sick of it. If I want to know what’s going on in my own country I have to check out information on the Internet, such as on here. I’m also sick and tired of hearing about Rangers Football Club EVERY night and noting the amount of time wasted on that … up to 50% of the whole of news time some nights.
If anyone else watches STV etc and feels the same way please start bombarding them with complaints.
@ Robert Louis
A truly worthwhile project to donate to. I’ve just donated again, tonight, following your appeal.
Bob,
Use duct tape to cover up the hole.
Switch yer mobile to video camera, put it in the fridge and shut the door.
Open the door and watch the video.
There’s a low tech solution too.
🙂
Carmichael has already been cleared in secret.
The excuse given will be although he lied about the memo, that was not of material concern to the people who re-elected him.
Like Coulson committing perjury but being cleared because the perjury was no relevant to the case.
I will be happy to be proved wrong.
If anyone else watches STV etc and feels the same way please start bombarding them with complaints.
Or just don’t watch their garbage at all. I gave up ages ago and its great. Its old tech, they’re on the slide down the UKOK pooper, flush them.
Re-Fridge light switch it off at the plug simple after you close the door of course.
That fridge thing…Schrödinger’s cat then ask it!
My offering is a Confabulation of Journalists.
Take the bulb oot the fridge, only open it during daylight ‘oors.
Dr Jim
“A “Sewage Of Journalists” I can almost smell them from here”
Fit aboot this?
link to images.mudfooted.com
My offering is a Confabulation of Journalists.
Apologies if this is a duplicate post, the first one vanished into witch space.
@Dr Jim says:
So instead of all these aforementioned moaners on a daily basis, how about, is it not time for a “State of the Nation” type address every once in a while, after all If Idjits like Gordon Brown are paid such deference to, and Cameron’s never off the Telly spouting about all the good he’s doing for us
Why should Scotlands First Minister not be accorded the courtesy of at least as much uninterrupted time as any of these are
Wouldn’t it be a great idea to see and hear someone we actually voted FOR…
————
That would be a good idea.
We get FM’s Questions on the news, but that’s the weekly to-and-fro of current politics, not the big picture of where we are going a a country.
There is a St Andrew’s day message, but it is relatively low key.
A volt of vultures
An Ego of journalists.
John Swinney has been sewing the seed with the public for some time now and the public knows he will have no hesitation in rejecting a crap deal.
There will be a monumental shit-storm if the Scottish Government tells Westminster to take their Scotland bill and shove it. It will be met with incredulity and venom. Everyday there will be an attack piece in every newspaper and BBC Scotland will be wall to wall SNP bad.
In other words, business as usual. It will be the same if the Scottish Government signs up to this devo-nano guff.
Rejecting ‘more powers’ will not compute for Westminster- Holyrood is subordinate and cannot possibly refuse this great gift! How dare we! Maybe it will wake some people up.
We have been allowing the unionists to make the plays for too long- caught up in discussion about devolution when FFA, devo-max, ‘home rule’ are pipe dreams. I am also amazed to hear people on this site still talk about devo-max as something to campaign on. Everytime someone mentions it I want to scream.
I was delighted to hear the SNP immediately indicate they will vote on English Sunday trading legislation- I hope it is a sign we are changing from defence to offense.
@Petra @9.02
Been keeping an eye on some of the proposed developments and also looking at scheduled decommissioning campaigns in the North Sea recently.
Read some stuff online today that’s making me suspicious.
Will keep snuffling about and report back.
Oh aye, and WTF is going on up at Schiehallion / Sullom Voe.
I smell shite.
Have a read of the Shetland Times, warning, there is a comment on one of the pages from a britnat lickspittle of the lowest order. They are pathetic.
Take everything out of the fridge, put a journalist in, shut the door – wait – open the door and ask them what happened… oops I detect a flaw in that plan…
Carmichael in the Guardian:
link to archive.is
Jeremy rejects the cushion when he called on Queenie! 🙂
link to archive.is
A Travesty of Journalists
OT
Seeing as we are talking about lights.
Q
How many unionist journalists does it take to change a light bulb?
A
Three –
One to lie about the wattage because the dimmest bulb has been selected
One to spread confusion over whether the bulb is edison screw or bayonet
One to spread a lie to cover up the fact the bulb is already blown
S’Dave
“…… how many labour governments have we had that the south of England didn’t vote for?”
Don’t know, don’t give a hee-haw. If Engerlund can’t get its act together, that’s their problem. My concern is limited to the value of my vote here in Scotland and the value of the vote of my fellow countrymen (i.e. of Scotland). What I know is that Scotland (who, for the past 50 years or so, has always voted Labour for WM elections) ONLY gets a Labour Govt. when ENGLAND (north, south, east and west) ALSO vote in favour of a Labour Govt. It very, very rarely operates the other wat around. Iyt is otherwise known here in Scotland as the ‘democratic deficit’. Look it up.
Scotland (Wales and N.I.), virtually ALL of the time, will get the Govt. that Engerlund votes for. Fact. Occasionally Engerlund’s choice is in harmony with how Scotland votes but most times it is not. Hence why Scotland, if we want the Govt. of the party we vote for ALL of the time, we need to go our own way.
Sad to leave you behind S’Dave but that’s just how it is, m’fraid.
Paula Rose
Yes you went back and opened the bloody door.
Tried all suggestions with the fridge,.
and food now inedible,fridge is utterly knackered with no power,no light and no insulation.
What did they do 100 years ago?
Ps
I believe the Rev has been having trouble with his hard drive today,hence the lack of topic posting.
I have just donated again.
This is important peeps.
link to indiegogo.com
And buy the book, one of the best historical documentations of the ignominy of the SMSM during indyref.
Re journalists,
Dont know about a group name for the writers, but I have one for their stories——- Mobius——– basically ,a never ending loop.
Q How many members of the House of Lords does it take to change a light bulb?
A What do you mean change the light bulb? It been perfectly fine for 100s of years, why change it now?
A rabble of reporters,
A hearsay of hacks…
@Bob Mack
“Dont know about a group name for the writers, but I have one for their stories——- Mobius——– basically ,a never ending loop.”
And more importantly – a one sided loop. 🙂
@Chic McGregor 2015 at 10:15 pm
I donated another £50 on Friday and just got the book today – full of excellent material for campaigning – packed with pictures of examples to back up every point on most pages.
Totally agree that this “is important peeps.”
link to indiegogo.com
Hi galamcennalath.
Reminds me of the classic…
How many microsoft engineers does it take to change a light bulb?
None – they just redefine ‘darkness’ as the default.
Bugsbunny 8.44
…. No bugsy. There is only one. Each day, Heedy comes up with a new theory- today it has been about multiple sensibledaves! Previously, according to Heedy,he has been convinced I work for the Tory party, the BBC, The Guardian, the telegraph and the Labour Party. It doesn’t matter what I say, he is totally convinced of each incarnation he projects for me at that time. Sadly, the truth is less intriguing- I am just a normal bloke that is interested in politics. I must be brilliant though because Heedy thinks I am a pro. On the other hand, maybe a recommendation from Heedy isn’t worth a whole lot though. I am Sparticus (the spelling is correct, I only have one eye! Get it?!!!)
Thanks Chic M. for the link. Meant to donate to this erlier this month but had forgot about it. Have just donated.
This one’s really important people. I make my own wee films to help the cause but they are nowhere near the quality these folks produce. Dig deep people. Here’s the link again:
link to indiegogo.com
@call me dave 10.01
Does not matter if Corbyn does not kneel to the queen – he knelt to the Tories where it mattered to the people he claims to represent
A ‘concoction’ of journalists.
or, if you prefer,
a ‘concocktion’ of journalists.
Link added…
link to vocabulary.com
Jackie Burns, Deputy Leader of LABOUR South Lanark Coucil, led the cuts to close down public toilets in his and others constituencies.
Roll the clocks forward a couple of months.
Jackie Burns, Deputy Leader of LABOUR South Lanark Coucil, caught pishing in the street after leaving a club in the early hours of the morning. Fined £40.
Jackie is blaming the SNP for cutting council budgets.
Two points (or is it pints) for Jackie, the SNP has frozen council tax due to labour mismanagement of the banking sector in London and the tories austerity, second point before leaving a club, go to the toilet.
also…
link to all-sorts.org
A ‘jobbie of journalists’.
A clone of journalists
A backfire of reporters
A leaning of columnists
(or a topple of columnists)
A rancid stack of hacks
@Paula Rose @9.01
OT
You made me think of something there.
I have a hazy memory of when I was wee (were talking in the 70’s here) of a public service ad warning kids not to get in abandoned fridges etc.
What was the first thing we did when we found one? – aye the smallest kid would be coerced to go in and the door would be slammed shut. Cue screaming and banging on door while it was held shut. I remember they did it to me.
Still get nervous when the fridge light doesn’t come on….
I see there’s an abandoned fridge near Great Northern Road waiting for a unionist hack to be deposited in it’s cold, dark, airless interior. There’s a padlock on this one.
@Ronnie,
You could not make up what I just did.
I looked up the word “reportage” in Collins dictionary as a possible entry to the collective name of journalists.
Underneath the dictionary gave an example of its’ proper usage which read;
” Our reportage of political meetings has been somewhat
superficial lately””
You could not make this up.
How about a CATHETER of journalists.They are always extracting the piss.
A Pestilence of Journalists.
Thank you for the tip off about Scottish Labour on the streets on Saturday. I will be at Partick station to grill said stall holders. Should be fun listening to SNP BAD.
@Cadogan Enright
Very true! 🙂
I wasn’t praising him I was thinking about the absurdity of it all.
As the Rev would say –
Oi you lot off to Off-topic.
@ Bob Mack
Perhaps ‘artificial’ might be more appropriate than ‘superficial’?
i.e. They ‘could’ make this up – and usually do!
A ‘worrying futility’ of journalists..
@sensibledaves – mentioned it before,
You have two avatars that means two different email addresses,therefore 2xsensibles – simples.
Aimed at unionist hacks only;
A pestilence of journalists.
When I looked up ‘Journalist’ in an online dictionary it re-directed me to ‘Shill’.
A cut and paste of journalists
Wuffing Dug says:
I’m going to have nightmares tonight and it’s all your fault.
You brought back really bad memories of the time I worked in an hotel where the chefs thought it was a great laugh to lock me in the walk in fridge in total darkness.
That was just horrible especially when there were big slabs of meat hanging from hooks and pigs heads & all sorts on the shelves.
Sometimes men are very silly! It’s no wonder I’m no right in the heed & that I suffer from claustrophobia.
Just watched Rep Scotchshire on the I-Player.
When the camera pans back to Spaniel’s ears following the story about a rise in unemployment in Scotland , she had the usual meely moothed pig ignorant smirk, when she thinks she can kick the SNP.(sorry hen your no smart enough)
Pathetic.
Or maybe the paranoia is starting to kick in again?
Sports warning!
Its official SNP blamed for Engerland getting humped at the cwicket.
Looks like a good excuse for Westminster to take more money from Scotland to prop up the English Cwicket Board.
OT Wee surge going on now. Important that th there is an audio-visual record of the ignominy of the SMSMS during indyref for future historians if nothing else.
Contribute what you can folks.
link to indiegogo.com
Petra
It’s one of the Human Rights that anyone should be allowed to leave and return to ones country.
RE Journalists.
A shower of lying Ar*eholes.
If we are still looking for the plural noun for Corporate Media Journalists;
A mockery
A censorship
A misrepresentation
A coining
A bréag
An aslach
A bias
A stink
An allegation
A paypacket
An amáidí or deargamaidí or bómántacht
a duplicity
amáidí or amaideas is best I think in a Scottish context
A ‘bevy’.
Breaking news mock BBC headlineyet more cyber abuse when will these political leaders take action.
@Cadogan Enright
I bow down.
Would only add, in similar vein:
A Sinecure.
Sensibledave says:
11 November, 2015 at 10:27 pm
Bugsbunny 8.44
Now sensibledave 2, its jolly bad form getting your shots in vicariously but it’s a common enough trait among rule britannia unionists, red or blue tory like you, so youre fine.
Its been an amazing few days of UKOK propaganda up here in your Scotland region sensibledave 2, you’ll be happy to know.
I honestly have never seen such a nationwide coordinated media burial of the Scotland Bill shyste in my short life.
Its probably never happened before in UKOK media, in peacetime at least. EVEL got a similar treatment but as you keep saying, EVEL has absolutely nothing to do with Scottish voters, so shadap sort of thingee.
Will this ferocious BetterTogether fraud on Scotland work though sensibledave 2, we’ll know next May.
It may do but as red and blue toryboy world starts ragin away at SNP Scots.gov for NOT paying for Osbornes savage cuts, they may well ask the why and how its come to this. Then red and blue tories might have to tell them. But probably wont.
Your perfect UKOK storm on Scotland sensible 2, Scotland’s economy does not perform, with none of the Devo-Max The Vow promised, Osborne’s tax credit cuts kick in, relentless BBC Scotland savage monstering of Sturgeon, red tory raging away for PAYE tax hikes, and in slides red tory Dugdale, to rule Britannia First Minister greatness.
and The great UKOK fraud on Scotland slithers along sensibledave 2.
Tam Jardine, you said you get angry when people express interest in Devo-Max, without really explaining why.
While we are here, it’s worth pointing out that Devo-Max to my knowledge has never been adequately defined in a way that all agree with.
There are opportunities with Devo-Max that make it appealing as a potentially huge step in the right direction.
1) It is noteworthy that the British Gov’t are known to have refused point blank to put it on the referendum as an option. You might consider why that was their stance.
2) I forget the source, but there is a poll out there that shows around 85% support for Devo-Max
3) Since we just had a referendum on Independence it would, I concede, be hard to have another identical one without a major explanation and debate — Devo-Max wouldn’t be a repeat of the 2014 referendum and on that basis would be easier to explain / justify.
4) It would be easy and necessary to define Devo-Max, in theory, before and in the run up to a referendum — everything short of defence and foreign policy, seems to be along the lines you’d expect.
5) the Vow isn’t being delivered, Devo-Max would deliver it.
6) Devo-Max would resolve west Lothian, Barnett, and a bunch of other issues.
I could go on. I expect you have doubts about it being honestly delivered and in the wake of The Vow who could blame you? But that is another issue that has nothing to do with Devo-Max per se.
As a final point, I think right now at this stage even the most enthusiastic supporters of independence would accept that not everybody in Scotland wants independence and so Devo-Max could be the compromise that allows us to get through the impassé we are stuck in. Our country is unhealthily divided right now, whether we like to admit it or not. Something’s got to give.
call me dave, “If Paton and Matthews cannot agree, the act says his election will stand.”
I think you have just described the verdict.
liz says:
11 November, 2015 at 11:07 pm
@sensibledaves – mentioned it before,
You have two avatars that means two different email addresses,therefore 2xsensibles – simples.
Ruby replies,/b>
I spotted three different ‘sensible dave’ avatars near the end of the ‘Scottish Labour Party of the Day’ article.
@Ruby 11.11
Shit – sorry.
Aye ah know us men are daft. But we would have never done anything like that to a lassie.
Whit a bunch ah tubes.
Another instance of Westminster trolling Scotland;
“A Merseyside MP who is set to stand trial over an alleged assault has been appointed to a top Westminster justice committee.
Marie Rimmer, 67, Labour MP for St Helens South and Whiston, will scrutinise the Ministry of Justice even though she is due to appear in court later this month over an alleged assault in Glasgow.
link to liverpoolecho.co.uk
The MP is accused of attacking a pro-independence campaigner at a polling station during the referendum campaign in Scotland.”
Tree of Liberty, Yes, if they disagree, Carmichael remains but it leaves the petitioners with the option of calling for a judicial review. So he’s not off the hook.
@Ruby
“You brought back really bad memories of the time I worked in an hotel where the chefs thought it was a great laugh to lock me in the walk in fridge in total darkness.
That was just horrible especially when there were big slabs of meat hanging from hooks and pigs heads & all sorts on the shelves.”
TBF I think some of the Tory mob might have been quite excited at that prospect.
My final offering,
An Abscess of Journalists.
That only came to me as I was told today by a dentist I have a small abscess on my gum/tooth.Will have to wait 3 weeks for root treatment,as he’s busy.
See that NHS,see that SNP 🙂
A conspiracy of journalists.
Re: avatars, re: sensibledave.
Are these not just randomly generated (by WordPress) avatars because SD doesn’t actually have one?
Collective name for MSM journalists-
Parcel (as in rogues)
A cocophany of c**ksuckers.
Sos, I’m an alliteration addict as well as a pun addict.
An interesting BBC piece highlighted on twitter on Catalonia:
link to archive.is
A couple of belters: “Pro-independence parties in Spain’s richest region, Catalonia, are pushing ahead with a historic plan for an independent state within 18 months, and the national government in Madrid is fighting back.”
David Halliday asks: “Spain’s richest region” says the BBC. By GDP per head. Did the BBC ever describe us as “Britain’s richest country”?
Never has, never will. Good point though.
The BBC piece states as a matter of fact: “Catalonia is worth much more to Spain economically than Scotland is to the UK.” Unlike the standards we have come to expect on Wings, the BBC does not qualify or provide a source for that statement.
Now I have no idea of the strength of the economy of Catalonia and what it contributes to the Spain. I have looked briefly at the GDP and if Catalonia’s GDP is the highest in Spain- 28,121 euros in 2014 Scotland is no doing too bad at 41,857 euros (converted from a $45,045 dollars).
I think a union with Catalonia might suit us much better- we push for that and we can hardly be called seperatists. We could be better together… just with someone else.