Wings Over Scotland

Ken 500
I think you have a ‘problem’.
Maybe time to make an appointment with Dr Poulter MP.
I’m told he is an excellent psychiatrist training to be a consultant.

Ooft! Straight to the point.

OT a wee bit.

I’ve just listened to the New York Observer columnist Andrew Walker on Skynews making a perfect argument for Scottish Independence. Only problem being a Unionist is he doesn’t realise it 🙂

Very arrogant man.

According to Vince Cable and others, the Prime Minister does appear to be a bit of a Nazi. One thing is for sure though, English Tories and English nationalism can not deliver social and economic security for Scotland.

What Is Fascism?

….Robert Paxton, a professor emeritus of social science at Columbia University in New York who is widely considered the father of fascism studies, defined fascism as “a form of political practice distinctive to the 20th century that arouses popular enthusiasm by sophisticated propaganda techniques for an anti-liberal, anti-socialist, violently exclusionary, expansionist nationalist agenda.”

link to livescience.com

@everybody,

`Concern Trolling` meaning,

Urban Dictionary defines a concern troll as “someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with ‘concerns.’

” In other words, it’s someone who pretends to support you but couches their disagreements in the form of “concerns,” which allows them to justify criticism as the result of worrying about you.

“I’m on your side,” they say, “but you shouldn’t do X, Y, and Z. It looks bad to some people — not that I agree, but I thought you should know.”

anyhoo,

one of your best Chris,i like my cairntoons a bit darker.

No wonder Chris, that May’s hands are hidden,if she had tried to shake their hands, the blood on her hands would have made them look like amatuers.

treeza is asking the dup and saudi for help, mainly cos none will come from the tory party…………..

Theresa May has just “days left as PM” after ‘committing UK to extra year in the EU’, Tory MPs warn
By Tom D. Rogers – 18th October 2018

@christopherhope
This morning feels like a moment in Theresa May’s leadership. Effectively staying another year in the EU is completely unacceptable to the Brexiteer MPs I have spoken to. She appears to have run out of road in the Brexit talks and has days left as PM, they say.

Addressing EU leaders last night, Theresa May is reported to have discussed the plot to keep the UK inside the EU for an extra year.

And the prominent Tory Brexiteer, John Redwood, said that Theresa May’s reported compromise was “quite unacceptable“, and added that: “I don’t think people will vote for it.“

But, after reports emerged detailing the reported compromise, Tory Brexiteers seem willing to push forward to trigger a no confidence vote in the Prime Minister.

However, 48 letters will be needed to trigger a vote against the Prime Minister.

It really is now a matter of when, not if.

Essexexile, if you haven’t had Ken gratuitously slag you off, you’re just not trying hard enough. Lol.

I disagree with you about Alex Salmond. Putting 2 and 2 together and perhaps not getting 4, but the anti Salmond rhetoric you cite might I suspect be the perspective seen from Essex, but it simply doesn’t resonate with me. It does echo the contrived BritNat narrative which set out to smear Alex Salmond as liar, opportunist, smug misogynist unliked by women.

Alex Salmond was, and hopefully will be again, one of Scotland’s finest statesman and political strategists. It always impressed me how Salmond could out “general” his enemies, such as when he got the Better Together mob demanding that the 2014 Referendum DIDN’T have a DevoMAX option on the ballot. DevoMAX threatened to haemorrhage support for YES, and Salmond’s wits got the Better Together muppets dancing to his tune and kill it dead.

Another mark of Salmond’s character is when he was accused of dishonesty about consulting a lawyer, and condemned by the Parliamentary Standards Officer for failing to comply with one of Jackie Baille’s many opportunistic Freedom of Information requests. I forget the woman’s name now, (Rose?) but it was her first week in the job, and had Salmond answered the FOI request, he would have breached a ministerial confidence and broken the ministerial code of conduct. As I recall it, Alex Salmond could have pulled the rug out from under her, but instead he spared her blushes and took the heat himself.

Alex Salmond has been and remains a grievous loss while effectively sidelined in the pro Independence campaign, and the muck which the BritNats like throwing at Alex should be seen for what it is… a measure of how much they absolutely fear him.

I say all this from the hopefully objective standpoint of a pro-Indy, but non-SNP perspective. Alex Salmond did make mistakes and wasn’t infallible, but not the mistakes he was condemned for. His big mistake in 2014 was the way the media bias was ignored, but the wider impetus he built for YES was absolutely pivotal to running the BritNats so close and creating their panic and outright dishonesty and cheating in the last few days.

Nevertheless, I hope Alex Salmond will in due course be fully vindicated over his conduct, and before long rehabilitated as one of Scotland’s most important Constitutional Guardians and steward for Sovereign Independence.

Re Essexexile at 9.50.

Well said. I have had similar reactions on here to a few of my infrequent comments, although not so vitriolic as you have endured. I have followed Wings for years. The bulk of the contributors are open to civilised debate but there are a few who view this site as their personal fiefdom and react badly to any views which conflict with theirs. Not exactly the best strategy to boost Wings following and promote the cause of independence.

Please continue to post. I don’t agree with your 8.43 comment either but respect your right to contribute your view.

After months of a disgusting “No surrender!”, “Fight em on the beaches” narrative during May’s negotiations, it is rather strange that the Tory Press have gone so quiet, now that May has all but capitulated to the EU !!!???????

It’s almost as of they were just trying any narrative just to protect the Tory government. Pure manipulation in a disgusting way. You did it deliberately.

Well, sorry Tory press, you don’t get off so lightly. You don’t wind up the population, generate so much division and xenophobia, wind them up, let them go, and then run away so easily. English nationalism is about to go critical. When it explodes, there won’t be much left of your precious “union”. The genie is out of the bottle and it’s all your fault.

Hamish100

Anyone who says they are a “Brit” or selects the identity of “British/Brutish” is admitting to an English identity.
“British” = English.
All “British” institutions are English.
Call out your neighbour and all Brits for what they are – English!

IndyRef2 had been up to some old tricks. Slagging off the SNP on other site. Getting comments in the Herald (or Nstional?) printed,totally slagging off the SNP. When they know for sure. They have been told before. The administration of any political party is required by Law.- Parliamentary Law – To have a set piece format according to legal requirement. A committee meeting. With a set agenda and format. With minutes taken, recorded and agreed. Just like any business. Motions layout and discussed. It might be slightly, boring for prima Donna or exhibitionist, who don’t know what side there bread is buttered on. There is plenty of scoop tombe involved and organise for those of a pstirbt disposition and conciliation. Depending on commitment. The ones who do the hard graft, often in the background. To get together and exchange opinions and discussion.

Unlike some little two faced toe rag attention seekers. Exhibitionists.

@Essex exile,

The point is that if Alex Salmond collected funds from people who believe his argument is justified. The alternative is to ban such collections which is pretty undemocratic don’t you think?

The complainer (s), are after all backed by the resources of the Scottish Government and Unions as well as media outlets.

A sense of balance is no bad thing.

Westminster unionists vetoed some of the tax haven reforms the EU wanted to make. Diluted them,
the ones being introduced, They are just the start.

uk economic strategy:

Ditch your close neighbours who are very stable plus geographically, politically, economically and culturally close to uk.

Replace them with:

States who are in unstable regions plus geographically, politically, economically and culturally distant to uk and have highly questionable human rights.

One side effect of bresxit is that it has smoked the tories out on their hardline unionist credentials, they are blood and soil british nationalists for all the people to see.

V enters the fray and gets it wrong as usual. Pity piece. Gies it peace, Not the moralising.

@Ken 500,

Cool yer jets mate. The points raised are exactly what we have to answer if we wish to persuade people to join. You might well have voted indy and SNP all your life but others like me came from a different background.

If you can’t say anything to counterpoint an argument then say nothing.

That also goes for those who just play agent provocateur on this site.

the horror! The horror!

OT To another horror , the RSPCA has another appeal on telly and shows just what a nation of animal lovers we really are. At the very beginning it has a printed message of the RSPCA works in England and Wales.

Please , no matter how moved /disgusted you are by the ad REMEMBER the SSPCA is ours and rescues animals from cruelty and neglect in Scotland.

Ken500

WoS regulars are always polite to you, no matter how disjointed or demented your postings.

Away back to bed, ya rocket.

Great cartoon of the truth of UK politics in that you know that Mrs May will take both hands and the only delay would be how to make it appear justifiable

In the past pre Internet before the world became judge jury and executioner there would be no hesitation, now the only hesitation is how to make the lie palatable for your own supporters to rally behind

The Internet gives false hope to folk who think their opinion matters to the powers that be, it doesn’t, those powers that have always been will always be and there’s nothing any of us can do to make a difference to it because we live in a Union that says *Democracy is what we say it is* and that folks is the reason for Independence for Scotland

The England Union system is and never has been democratic it was never designed to be it’s just Monarchy by a different name, the facade maintained to give the masses hope that they count for something, they don’t, again the reason for Scottish Independence

Small countries with small populations throughout the world
can do better than the large ones at operating democracy, big countries are just useless at it look at America Russia and England thinks and behaves in the same way, it has delusions of grandeur way above its actual size hence the projection of itself as *Great* Britain, the *British* Isles, the *United* Kingdom, how many *BIG* sounding names do you invent for yourself for goodness sake

The Monarchy, look at the Queen mother remember her well her title was *Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother* I mean how many times can you get the word Queen in the title to big yourself up

Trouble with England is it still thinks it’s in a kind of X Factor contest of important world countries and it still wants to win the Golden Trophy as the importantist of all the other contestants, again the reason for Scottish Independence because you don’t compete with other countries you co operate with them and compete with yourself to improve your situation

Leave England to its dream of domination and power and get on with building friendships with other nations not tearing them down

Diplomacy is done over a cup of coffee and a blether not appearing to be defiant posturing and self aggrandising to show how powerful you’re pretending to be

Gosh I just rambled on there, sorry!

Valerie just piss off

Kettle black

Aye voting Green did a lot for Independence. It lost the SNP majority. Clueless. While they vote against the SNP at every opportunity. They are trying to lose SNP support by constant irrational criticism. That does not do much for Independence cause. Or get rid of Willy Rennie. The political system sabotaged. Voters sick of the sight of unionists politicians can’t get rid of them. Ganging up together with two jobs Tories dragged off the street to deny Scotland democracy.

A great cartoon. Ye cannae say better than that.

Scott Finlayson at 1019am,

Excellent comment. I totally agree. You would think by now, that some folks on here might be a bit wiser regarding such things.

Lovely pictures of the FM and Chris Pine at the premiere of the Bruce movie, Oh and Yoonworld really really angry again about, well everything Scottish and the FM

in line with this blogs rules, i usually just scroll past trolls, abusive posters etc, which is why i was replying to val and not you ken. but i take exception here as you are disrupting the thread. this is also frowned upon by the owner of this blog.

some of your comments are worthwhile, as said by bob mack, but i believe you are sailing close to the wind and for your own good, it would be better to step away from your keyboard.

last comment on this matter

Surprised nobody has posted this today ?

link to bloomberg.com

I’m not sure the Greens did stop the SNP getting a majority. I suppose I could add all their votes to the SNPs on the list and see if they’d have gained any extra seats.

Admittedly standing at the constituency level might have lost the SNP a seat but only if you follow the arrogance of Labour in forgetting voters only lend you their votes and that you don’t own them.

The major culprits in that whole thing though were RISE who you’d almost think were deliberately there to split the YES vote more than two ways. All based on an arrogant overconfidence similar to that which, or do it’s said, contributed to Kinnock losing an election.

As it stands there’s already a mandate in Holyrood for indyref2 and it can’t be said they the Greens are SNP puppets.

Also despite Mundell’s claims Westminster has no mandate for it’s own manifesto unless the DUP mentioned indyref2. However even then the whole precious union but mentions the timing of indyref2 not taking place until after Brexit. Not sure if that even includes a transition phase. So by implication any time after March next year. But as I said they’re a minority administration with no mandate other than where their manifestos overlap with another party.

Yeah we’re different in so many ways. Another reason for leaving the Union.

‘WATCH: SNP MP told to ask ‘written question’ because of his accent.’

link to thenational.scot

……………………………..

‘SNP make second visit to Arctic Circle Assembly as part of post-Brexit strategy to save Scotland. Loyalist parties and media CGAF?’

link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com

…………………………..

‘Sally Magnusson left fuming as Reporting Scotland descends into chaos.’

link to thenational.scot

……………………….

‘BBC Scotland, reporting the news that matters: One mad cow, one bad polis email, one unreliable stat, one black panther, maybe!’

link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com

Isn’t it odd that this week’s discovery of BSE in Aberdeenshire has been shouted from the rooftops by both Scottish and metropolitan media including the BBC while apparently there have been about 10 instances in E & W over the last few years which, if they were reported in the media, receieved little or no attentiom?

O/T

“Breaking: First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, pulls out of Edinburgh conference after learning that former Trump strategist, Steve Bannon, has been invited to speak by BBC.” – The Ferret

A50 has to be constitutionally sound.

As the funding and dirty tricks involved in getting a narrow Leave result became apparent then an A50 based on that would have failed that requirement.

Also considering the lack of mandate it’s certain the HoL would have delayed long enough for second thoughts and the whole thing called off without the Parliament Act being applicable.

So a GE needed to force that issue and enough MPs elected on a manifesto pledge.

Also to comply with A50 it had to be voted on by Parliament hence the Gina Miller case removed another avenue to challenge the constitutional compliance of it.

One remaining avenue for invalidating A50 is the pursuit of the Dark Money scandal that may very well be pivotal in giving May if not a majority enough MPs to run a minority administration. If the Parliament is not elected on a sound constitutional basis then any votes are tainted.

Never mind that the previous government was even more blatantly illegitimate.

If anything Brexit is based on successive abuses of the democratic process with those most closely tied to them keanest to get it done before it can be stopped or reversed. It’s like fugitives desperate to keep one step ahead of being caught.

It’d real make a bad day for them worse if the EU say you can simply withdraw A50

‘Letters: A chance to help save our rare red squirrels.’

Please make a difference and vote at:

link to treesforlife.org.uk.

link to thenational.scot

………………….

‘Yes DIY: Report finds that resistance to independence can be overcome.’

link to thenational.scot

Touche Kettle black

The timing of the alleged BSE outbreak, as in single animal, might simply be coincidence. However it is close on the heels of an attempt at destroying calf exports or at least undermining them. Only problem is that I don’t know how long the incubation time is so deliberate infection might need a longer lead time.

That said deliberately undermining parts of Scotland’s economy for long term gain is definitely something that could be justified as an investment. Something similar to the sudden reduction in revenue take from the North Sea ostensibly to encourage reinvestment but combined with the lowering of price by OPEC flooding the market from their reserves led to an argument against independence. A short term loss to prevent a more permanent one.

Just getting sick of the totally continued crap. Just getting raging. Red rag.

Someone coming in an Independence supporting site and criticising Alex Salmond in their ignorance. They they think will get away with it. They won’t. They have done exactly the same thing before. Word for word. Then peope being expected to pussy foot around them with others joining in. While they try to destroy the economy and are sanctioning and starving people. Totally unnecessarily. In a place of plenty. It is just disgusting. Yet people are defending them. Ridiculous.

They need to be called out every time. Enough is enough. People have enough of this shambles, havoc and chaotic UK Gov. Their carry on is beyond the pale. They will collapse for sure soon, Labour could have taken them down Sept 2017 EVEL vote but they did not. In order end the suffering. They are useless. They do not want the poison chalice. They haven’t got a clue,

Dugdale was even telling voters to vote for the Tories. That is illegal. It breaks Parliamentary rules for a representative of one Party to tell people or vote for another. Against Party rules. She did it and stopped Corbyn getting in, How monumentally stupid is that. Beyond stupid. They have to be sued to stop them telling lies but that does not even stop them.

After what Alex Salmond has done for Scotland all his life. Many of them who criticise are not fit to lick his boots. They way he has been treated by some moronic civil servant. Swanning around like they are some FM and getting paid more. There is one FM. There is no need for another one. On false pretence.

Adam Payne from Business Insider seems pretty plugged in to the Brussels scene. He said he was getting the impression EU were running out of patience, and ball is now firmly in UK court.

His piece here rounds it up quite well. It’s “take it or leave it” from EU. They will not budge on backstop, which will infuriate DUP.

Seems EU has learned the hard way, they are dealing with liars and back peddlers, hence their determination on backstop.

link to archive.is

@Orri,

Tin foil hat time? The source of the BSE is at this time unknown, but you have to remember that there is a (slim) chance that these type of disease can manifest naturally – eg the disease Scrapie in sheep, BSE in cows or CJD in humans.

What was unique about the major BSE outbreak was that it was wholly due to the macabre practice of feeding cows (purely vegetarian animals) a feed that included the ground up parts of other animals like cows, sheep pigs and horses). A purely man-made problem.

There was a spill in Camelford in Cornwall of Aluminum Sulfate to the water system that has resulted in excess of 20 cases of degenerative brain disease in the local populace.

link to en.m.wikipedia.org

The oil price slump – was not directly caused by the Saudi’s. Rather the US shale suppliers had flooded the market with an over supply of oil (not for the first time in history), and they expected that the Saudi’s would cut the supply again to keep the price high. However, the Las tome the Saudi’s cut their output, tge suppliers they cut out went elsewhere and it to the Saudi’s a long time to get them back.

Anyway, why should the Saudi’s care? They can pump the oil at a few $ per barrel as opposed to the US shale suppliers who needed around $50 a barrel back then just to break even. So the Saudi’s kept pumping at their agreed rate to punish the US shale. Why they eventually rescinded and cut production we will never know, but the Saudi economy was suffering badly due to the loss in revenue.

One thing is for sure, the biggest winner if the US / Is**el / Saudi alliance get involved in Iran, the only winners will be the oil companies and the arms manufacturers.

British nationalism articulates an extremely unhealthy re-imagination of colonial imperialism (see Brexit).

The Nation and Nationalism in Europe

Typologies of Nationalism
In the literature we can find several more or less successful attempts to classify nationalism. In the following section we systemise these attempts by introducing six criteria of classification of nationalism.

We use the following meta-criteria:
• correspondence between culture and politics
• definition of the nation
• ethical assessment of nationalism
• techniques of generating nationalism
• main bearers of nationalism

Ontological and consequential ethical assessments of
nationalism

In ethical terms, we can distinguish between ontological and consequential assessments of nationalism. Ontological ethical assessments have their precursor in Hans Kohn’s dichotomy between Western and Eastern varieties of nationalism and the idea of more and less benign forms of nationalism. Speaking more in normative than in analytical terms, Kohn pointed to the spirit of individual liberty and rational cosmopolitanism that informed the Western type of nationalism.14 At the same time, he saw illiberal tendencies as inherent in the Eastern type of nationalism and argued that Eastern nationalism, especially the German variety, ‘turned to self-glorification and lacked sober appreciation of moral and material forces’.15

link to researchgate.net

Media representation of nationalism and immigration: a case study of Jamie’s Great Britain
link to lse.ac.uk

Nationalism as a Social Imaginary: Negotiations of Social Signification and (Dis)Integrating Discourses in Britain, France and Poland
link to tel.archives-ouvertes.fr

Valerie @ 14:16,

Interesting article. The EU holds all the cards, and is totally fed up dealing with “strong and stable” May, so I continue to reckon that the UKGov will cave, and will get an open-ended “transition” agreement through the HoC with the help of the opposition. Someone else will have to deal with the ongoing mess for years to come, but here in Scotland we’ll still have been dragged out against our express will, lost all our rights as EU citizens, and be vulnerable to a predatory UKGov in desperate need of resources and handy scapegoats.

(Not feeling the water temperature getting just a bit uncomfortable now, Scottish frogs…?)

I said in the past that I am very happy for genuine No voters or soft Nos to come on here and have open debate, but unionists pretending to support Independence with the sole purpose of causing division, well they’re just scum.

Straight from the mouth of a DEFRA vet. The beast with a lesser form of BSE came up from England 5 years ago. There has been a few cases of this in E&W which cost them their top class status.
The infected beast and its ‘family’ have all been put down; largely helped by the EU system – however much a pest to farmers – to trace where it came from and all its subsequent ‘family’. Not a lot in the MSM about that fact.

Although a pain in the neck to Scottish DEFRA vets it is therefore containable and will probably not affect the international Meat Convention next week as Scotch beef has such a great reputation.
Well done to those Scottish Tories pushing for Trump’s hormone packed beef imports. Now we know why it is cheaper.
Any bets on these unionist turncoats being first in the queue to munch on a TrumpBurger?

re. the British nationalist world view. They consider N. Ireland, Scotland and Wales to be subordinate to England’s will, and consider Britain to be One Nation. British nationalism is intrinsically a philosophy associated with English Conservative , and drips with myopic Tory chauvinism and a desire to assimilate with the English identity.

Nationalism as a Social Imaginary: Negotiations of Social Signification and (Dis)Integrating Discourses in Britain, France and Poland

….Moving partly away from questions of integration, the forces that undermine the Union are to be found in the ‘counter’ regional nationalisms of this ‘nation of nations’:

“Perhaps in the past we could get by with a Britishness that was assumed without being explicitly stated. But when our country is being challenged in Scotland, Wales and now England by secessionists, it is right to be explicit about what we, the British people, share in common and the patriotic vision for our country’s future.”471

At first glance, Brown’s promotion of nationalism appears explicitly civic albeit clouded in a very traditional rhetoric.472 Looking at the elements with which Brown proposes to fill in the space opened by the lack of national identity, they appear indeed as very traditional. Brown, certainly influenced by his higher education in history, heavily relies on key political events in what is presented as the “golden thread” of British history which, as Brown states, have “woven together […] “our central beliefs [which] are a commitment to – liberty for all, responsibility by all and fairness to all.”473

On the the key political events, Brown continues:

““[…] there is […] a golden thread which runs through British history – that runs from that long ago day in Runnymede in 1215; on to the Bill of Rights in 1689 where Britain became the first country to successfully assert the power of Parliament over the King; to not just one, but four great Reform Acts in less than a hundred years – of the individual standing firm against tyranny and then – an even more generous, expansive view of liberty – the idea of government accountable to the people, evolving into the exciting idea of empowering citizens to control their own lives. […] Of course the appeal to fairness runs through British history, from early opposition to the first poll tax in 1318 to the second; fairness the theme from the civil war debates […] to the 1940s when Orwell talked of a Britain known to the world for its ‘decency’.”474

link to tel.archives-ouvertes.fr

P.S. Just as the EU and the former Soviet Union, Britain is not a suitable target for patriotism as it is a unitary state. It is only possible to be a patriot to one’s home nation. Loyalty towards a unitary state is defined as nationalism and so is intrinsically illiberal in nature.

Sorry, that should have been , loyalty to a unitary state is defined as cultural nationalism… Of course, real life isn’t straight forward, British nationalism also contains an element of civic nationalism but tends towards authoritarian culturalism (see Brexit).

Are there good and bad nationalisms?

ABSTRACT. Writers on nationalism have continued to use the distinction between civic and cultural nationalisms; and to suggest that the former has liberal connotations while the latter is intrinsically illiberal and authoritarian. This rests in part on the argument that the civic bond is rational and voluntaristic while the cultural bond is irrational and ascriptive; in part on the argument that the presence of the middle classes is conducive to liberal politics; and in part on the argument that cultural nationalism is illiberal because of its reactive origins. These arguments are critically examined, and then are reformulated to suggest that the liberalism or illiberalism of nationalism might not be related to its cultural or civic basis, but might depend both upon whether the class articulating the nationalism is marginalised or upwardly mobile; and upon whether the wider society becomes focused upon ressentiment in relation to threatening others, or on developing a self-generated identity.

link to static.cambridge.org

O/T – apologies

There are a few people, possible tens of thousands of them, wandering through London today. If the numbers claimed are accurate, as a percentage of population, this represents about half the same number of people who wandered aimlessly down the High Street in Edinburgh a couple of weeks ago before having a picnic in someone’s back garden. It is, of course, of absolutely no surprise that the msm is reporting on today’s march while it almost completely ignored the Edinburgh one despite, as noted, it having, as a percentage of population, double the number of people. Other than the Guardian’s Severin Carrell noting there were ‘tens of thousands die hard nationalists’.

I see the media pushing the idea that the People’s Vote would be a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

Surely it has by now become obvious that the final deal will be many years away. The Withdrawal Agreement and accompanying vague unbinding future framework statement will tell us nothing about the future trade deal – which is of course the real final deal.

Assuming May gets a WA, and WM approves if (big assumptions right now) then we have a long transition period of effectively status quo.

And assuming a trade deal is agreed (yet another big assumption) it could be anything on a wide spectrum.

The People’s Vote is not proposed to pass judgement on any ‘deal’. It’s all about reversing Brexit all together. They should at least be honest and not behave like dishonest Leave did.

Scotland? Our ‘People’s Vote’ should be held to pass judgement on the Union and whether it has a future.

@Valerie –

Yeah, agreed – we very rarely hear about Brexit from the point of view of the ‘other’ 27 countries who have their own lives to get on with.

I’m amazed at the patience shown by Juncker, Tusk, Verhofstadt, Barnier and their staff but it wouldn’t be a great surprise if one of them cracked and just said, ‘Know what? We have a lot of serious business to get on with and we’ve wasted more than enough time on you ignorant arrogant wankers – so please do us all a huge favour and fuck right off, once and for all, back to the eighteenth-century where you belong.’

Aye, wae friends like these, who needs enemies…

Hands up:
link to youtube.com

Raise yer hauns:
link to youtube.com

Lend me yer fears:
link to youtube.com

Buck-toothed May is the rabbit doon Alice’s hole…

Aye do wonder.

Breaking News:-

link to youtube.com

What a chilling cartoon! It suns up WM morals. Given the current situation with Turkey/ Saudi Arabia I don;t hear many countries cancelling their weapons deals with the Saudis.

Definitely blood on those hands – the blood red lines Arlene is referring to.
I notice Fluffy is threatening to resign – again! this time over the Fisheries policy. If there is an extended brexit transition, the NE fisherfolk will have to stay in the CFP and this will overlap into the next Holyrood elections. It could affect the outcome of their tory NE Enclave.

Of course, if Nicola disnae use her mandate in this parliament then she must have a majority in the next election and NE fishermen being forced to stay in the CFP could just turn those voters against the ineffective Tories and cost them seats.

This is more important to Fluffy than a good deal for scotland hence his second ( or is this a real one) threat to resign…..

Tractor.

Robert Peffers @ 5.04

Well Robert,

Maybe the Scottish tories will be instrumental in breaking the Union. if they vote down an extended Transition because of the fisheries policy, they are in effect voting for the worst possible deal for Scotland – a no deal Brexit.
This would surely force a backstop which would require a border in the Irish Sea because the EU will not agree to a hard border between North and South Ireland because of the GFA.

But (T)Ruthless has already said she can’t have a border in the Irish sea that because she’ll resign if Treeza goes against the DUP… what is a PM to do…

Knowing T may she’ll do what she wants and they will all have to jump but it is a conundrum….

Gordon Ross reminding us, for one, that using a General Election to cover our Independence Referendum would be detrimental, due to EU nationals and 16/17 year olds not being allowed a vote.

Indycar Gordon Ross 19 10 18, Fish Culloden and No Deal on Fluffy resigning

link to youtube.com

How do you say SNP Baad without actually saying it

Well you do a report like this: *Glasgow City Council took the life blood out of Glasgow and ruined thousands of peoples lives by closing Paddies market promising to regenerate the area, ten years on and they’ve done nothing*

This is while showing you archive film of the market in full swing then a picure of derelection

Who’s in charge eh the cooncil then, that’s the SNP, aye see thame they’re rubbish nucghing but promises

Job done for a quick SNP Baad there

The event organisers the EBU say that “Steve Bannon was a key influencer in the rise of populism”
So was Hitler. Would the EBU have invited him?
Nicola is wise to avoid that can of worms.

Ken500 says:
20 October, 2018 at 10:59 am

“They went after Alex Salmond because he knows where the bodies are buried.”

Nicola’s SNP government has fully backed the civil servant who is trying to bring Alex Salmond down and is going to vigorously defend her against Salmond.

How are you going to whitewash that?

Valerie says:
20 October, 2018 at 11:18 am

“There is only one person who decides if you cannot post on here, and it ain’t Ken500, so don’t be asking him!”

Valerie (1st July 2016 – “All things are relative”):

“@Rock

Fuck right off. Have a break, and stop working for the unionists.”

Rock (1st July 2016 – “All things are relative”):

“May I gently remind you, and the likes of you, that this website does not belong to you.

If and when the owner tells me to stop posting, I will.

For the record, I have never, ever told any poster to stop posting, let alone to “Fuck right off”.”

@Mike Cassidy 11:05am
Good link cheers.
I’m not entirely sure the article is a comprehensive whole picture, but taken at face value it certainly helps apply Occams Razor to a few theories.
Certainly I couldn’t help feeling Tax wasn’t the whole picture, because I couldn’t square any EU tax crackdown which affected London so badly that it wouldn’t have collapsed Luxembourg entirely!

After todays massive march in London I wonder if Jeremy Corbyn will suddenly see the light and run to lead this new referendum campaign.

Rock is ok.
o/t
I see the new movie about Robert the Bruce seems to be getting the coverage as was given Outlander ie zero.
There has been though heavy promotion of Peterloo the movie about the massacre of peaceful demonstrators in Manchester in the early 1800`s who were protesting against poverty. Laudable subject but why the lack of publicity for `The Rebel King“.
Do I need to ask.
I really do hate this UK and its determination to eliminate Scottish history and culture.

Nicola is very wise to boycott the BBC sponsored event with Steve Bannon. There will probably be protesters outside with placards which the BBC can then splice into footage of Nicola addressing the audience. They are devious enough to do that as we know.

Capella , dead right and Ally McCoist would testify to the deviousness of BBBC Scotland and the art of juxtapositioning and our own FM will well remember a certain gorilla.

I sure as hell do.

Scotland needs to get its head out of England’s fundament……and that right quickly.
This is becoming tedious, boring, repetitive. We require action from our (selfstyled)leaders.
Enough of politics….

re the peoples vote

Im conflicted by this and am not convinced it is the right way to go. I am reminded of the 2011 AV ref put forward by the libdem coalition. unfortunately, while many people recognised the need to reform the electoral procedure at WM, many people voted against it simply to give the libdems a bloody nose for their uturn on tuition fees.

with the euref, the demographics show that amongst the younger sections of the population, eu membership is very very popular, this popularity reduces as the age of the population increases.

this tells me one thing, the uk/england and wales will rejoin the eu sometime in the next 5/10 years.

but the problem for the peoplesvote folk is that all of the tory and labour mps were elected specifically on manifesto commitments to leave the eu and the sm and the cu, treezas good deal, redwhiteblue brexit is as much cakism as corbyns jobs first brexit or A CU not THE CU. we know that these 3rd way options dont exist, they never have.

neither the tories or labour have a manifesto commitment to an euref2 and so dont have a mandate of any kind to demand euref2. neither does the snp.

the correct way to do this is to stand in a ge with euref2 on the manifesto, win and then hold euref2. parties and politicians who try to circumnavigate the existing system (however badly flawed it is and for whatever reason) have a history of being punished by the electorate

the euref2 could be fatal to the pro eu block

starlaw @ 19:00,

Naw. He has neither the guts nor the personal inclination.

But he likely will get his party to help vote through Theresa’s “transitional” CU, and lever us out by thus avoiding a showdown.

“Better together”, y’know.

This is a general reply to several Wingers. There has been some claims made that really are misleading. Mostly these are based around false premises.

It isn’t easy to answer them all. never mind answer them in one comment. So let’s just step back and see how the United Kingdom came about while looking at the laws that are involved.

First read this – it may open a few eyes:-

link to historyextra.com

Here we see that the English were assuming sovereignty over the Kingdom of Scotland. Then, on 10 February 1306, the most important political murder in Scottish history happened. John, “The Red”, Comyn, was slaughtered by Robert Bruce, and his followers in the church of the Franciscans, (The Greyfriars), at Dumfries.

However, was the English Kingdom’s assumptions of assumed sovereignty legal under the two independent kingdoms rules of law? The answer is no, and even today, the two kingdoms still retain their own independent Rules of Law.

In Scotland the royal person’s sovereignty has no place under the Scottish Rule of Law and monarchs, (or their delegates), are answerable to the people of Scotland under the independent Scottish Rule of Law but in those far of days and right up until 1688 the Rule of Law in England was, “The Divine Right of Kings”, (a.k.a. sovereignty).

Thus the English claim of sovereignty had no place in Scots, English or international law on 10 February 1306 so under international law it was an illegal occupation under Scottish, English and international law. Bruce was quite legally fighting to uphold his country’s sovereignty and that was before he was chosen as King.

What followed was the crowning of Bruce as King and the Scottish wars of independence and On 23 and 24 June 1314, Robert Bruce, now king of Scotland, faced King Edward II at Bannockburn in the decisive battle of the Wars of Scottish Independence but perhaps the significance of that too is lost on many Scots.

In the English Kingdom of 1314, “Divine Right of Kings”, was still the law but in Scotland sovereignty legally still rested with the people of Scotland and it still does.

Thus under English law the winning monarch had sovereign claim to annex the Kingdom of England but under Scottish law he did not. This is reflected in the Edinburgh-Northampton Treaty of 17 March 1328.

It wasn’t very long before England ignored and broke that treaty but it is still an international treaty and is part of the long story of Perfidious Albion’s treachery.

So the agree royal marriage was to have repercussions when in the fullness of time a Scots Monarch inherited the crowns, all three of them, of the Kingdom of England in 1603 and at which time the rule of law in England was still Divine right of Kings but not under Scotland’s laws.

Thus in spite of English claims there was no Union of the Crowns in 1603 except as a personal union for the monarch himself but Westminster acted as if there was – and that kicked off the Jacobite Uprisings with the Scots fighting to retain their legal sovereignty and those uprising continued for just short of 40 years after the English, with the aid of Paircel o Rogues, forced the Treaty of Union between only those two kingdoms in 1706/7.

Yet that Treaty of Union avers that the two Kingdoms are equally sovereign partners in the United Kingdom and must forever retain their individual independent legal systems forever.

Which brings us bang up to date and not a damned thing has changed legally since before Bruce slew the Comyn.

Now that is where we are today and it is where your state broadcasters and dead tree press and your Westminster representatives, (both for and against), are keeping so quiet about, (for their own different reasons).

If Wingers have been keeping up to date they will know that the SGs legal people have put forward the Scottish Claim of Right and the Westminster lot have not defended it. That is tantamount to admission that it is correct unless it is subsequently challenged and it has now been challenged but in the Westminster instigated Supreme court but that is now being taken to the ECJ who say they will, as a matter of urgency, fast track it.

So there you go. We are not going to get Westminster to play fair they never have, they will not freely admit to Scottish people’s legal sovereignty, they never have before.

However, the SG has backed them into a corner and taken the matter out of Westminster’s hands and still Theresa is claiming that it is a United Kingdom vote but that, in itself is an admission of refusal to acknowledge the union is a bipartite union of kingdoms and an indirect claim the United Kingdom isn’t a united kingdom but is instead a unified country.

It cannot be a union of four countries, a union of two kingdoms, a de facto country of England devolving English powers to three countries or any of those combinations at the same time and it is, after all titled The United Kingdom with only two signatories on the Treaty of Union.

So Nicola only has a mandate from the people of Scotland, (and from Holyrood), to hold a second referendum – she has no majority mandate to end the Union and there are more than enough unionist backed up by the Westminster black ops loons and such as the OO and unionist Brit/English Nationalists that she cannot yet guarantee a majority vote for ending the Union.

Yet here on Wings we have lots of Wingers who claim to support independence attempting to force Nicola to call an indyref2 she obviously believes is a rather uncertain winner.

Now why would genuine in dependant supporters want to do that?

I am certain that independence is not coming from a second referendum but, after a legal affirmation of Scottish sovereignty, a majority of Scots voting the union is over.

schrodingers cat @ 20:08,

I don’t reckon there will be one.

Essentially for the reasons you give. Labour is split and the FibDems too small, the state broadcaster is pushng “no going back”, so there’s no fulcrum for the (popular) lever.

Even a demand proved by petition signatures of millions can be ignored. “Purely advisory”, y’see!

The only thing I can envisage that could change that would be some significant constitutional challenge. Ironically enough, since the (in)famous flexible British so-called Constitution generally allows the UK regime of the day to trample over any legitimate objections in order to get whatever it wants.

I’m not sure the current cases before the courts are sufficient, even though they clearly have got the UKGov worried. Art.50 has proved a troublesome little thing. Has its capabilities for putting spanners in the works been fully exhausted yet? Is there still time?

Integrity personified is the FM. As usual, she calmly makes the right decision without fuss or self importance.

Most of us will be appalled by the ongoing war in Yemen which is responsible for thousands of deaths to date and potentially much more to come due to military activity, famine and disease. The root cause appears to be a power struggle involving the Sunni/Shia religious divide and 3rd parties with a foot in either camp. You have to ask yourself what kind of benificent, caring God do these protagonists believe in? Our government takes sides on economic considerations and in the meantime the innocents continue to suffer and die in their thousands. What kind of god do the Tories believe in and how can they sleep at night? Presumably their god is Mammon.

I would hope that an independent Scotland will take a different stance and use whatever influence they might have to resolve disputes rather than help equip one side with the necessary to murder the other.