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Fear and self-loathing

Posted on September 01, 2013 by

We’ve been hearing tales today of people who signed up for the top secret “public meeting” of No Glasgow yesterday and received written confirmation that their application had been successful, but were then mysteriously refused admission when they arrived – a curious occurrence when by most accounts there were 70-80 seats going begging in the 400-seater auditorium.

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We, naturally, had about 50 spies in the room, one of whom audio-recorded the entire thing. We’re still plugging our way through it – it’s hard to maintain focus when the tired old platitudes you’ve heard a hundred times already drone on and on from the stage, and we keep finding we’ve forgotten we’re listening and have wandered off to do the hoovering or something.

By far the most compelling argument we’ve heard so far, though, came from a gentleman in the audience. It’s transcribed below. Take a moment to read it.

“I was actually first time in Spain, when they went independent.  Now, I saw a big change.  The first thing I did was I spoke to a lot of business people, cause I’m not business myself, I’m just a hooligan!  The first thing they did say was when they went independent they were poorer.  

Now Mr Salmond and his empty brains has not spoken about Spain again but I went over to Spain last year and the fact is now there is more unemployment, begging and everything over there and the pensioners can’t get a pension until they retire and if you retire before you’re 80 you won’t get a pension. So I hope that we work together as a Great Britain.  Thank you.”

We’re not mocking the person who said that. We don’t think it’s funny.

We think it’s a tragedy, by turns heart-breaking and enraging, that Alistair Darling and his chums – desperate to protect their cushy jobs for life and fat expense accounts, caring not an atom of a damn for anyone else – have so browbeaten the Scottish people into a horrific, cringeing Stockholm Syndrome that someone would stand up in public in his own country and all but DEMAND that his own people not be allowed to take control of their own affairs.

If you see tears in our eyes, they’re not of laughter. If we allow ourselves to be fooled into voting No by the sort of men and women who want us to spend our lives thinking like that, lest we get above our station and dare to dream of something better, then we’ll get what we deserve – nothing – and Hell mend us.

One chance in 300 years. 12 months to go. If you’re not already, get off your backside and do something. Because if you don’t, you’ll regret it forever.

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    128 to “Fear and self-loathing”

    1. Le Petit Prince says:

      As a nation we need to aim high.  Well done, and keep exposing NO for who they are !  Our nation has a national self-esteem issue … the way Darling and Fat Blair prey on this disgusts me, it disgusts every particle in my body. 

    2. Randomscot says:

      Despite an alliance or two, when were Spain part of the UK?

    3. Mark Coburn says:

      Rev,

      Yes! I’ve been saying this for months to the Keyboard Commandos who insist (still) in arguing with the other side. It’s absolutely pointless when there are a million out there waiting to be convinced and converted. I’ve had a go at a fair number of folk (some of whom I happen to be pals with) telling them to get out canvassing, leafleting, stalll-work, whatever. Just get out and make this happen. None of us should be wakening up on that Friday morning after regretting that we never put enough work in.

      Not good enough. Get to work.

      M.

    4. We all need to do whatever we can to make this happen. All of us, no matter what skills we have. This time we are going to be the change.

    5. Endless_psych says:

      Spain? Independent?
      Does he mean he was there in 1812?
       

    6. Albalha says:

      By the looks on the faces of some in the audience, when he was speaking, they were mocking him.
      That’s the horrible, sad truth.
      Some people will buy the Fear Project and vote NO, that of course is the plan. I can only hope that the Trades’ Union movement comes to its senses and backs a YES vote.
      Clearly there’s no hope for the self serving Labour lot in Scotland and their MSM backers. Shameful.

    7. DavidJFHalliday says:

      “They’ve got nothing. Let’s have them.”
       
      Now THAT’S our anthem, if someone can put it to half-decent music.

    8. Taranaich says:

      I was actually first time in Spain, when they went independent.
       
      I am actually quite intrigued as to what the gentleman could possibly have meant by Spanish independence, and what the “Spanish businessmen” he refer to are on about. I cannot think of what on earth he’s referring to. The current nation of Spain has, as far as I’m aware, *never* been in any situation which has not been thoroughly independent. The closest I can think of is the Reconquista, and if there are businessmen alive who can remember that…

    9. naebd says:

      This man must be very old. When it comes to Spain Going Separate I’m drawing a blank. Did Napoleon conquer Spain at one point?

    10. abigdoob says:

      Am I missing something? I can think of lots of countries who’ve become independent from Spain.
      But Google as I might I can’t find any date for Spanish Independence from anyone, other than perhaps the Moors or the Alhambra Decree of 1492, but I doubt the delegate is that old.

    11. martyn says:

      “I was actually first time in Spain, when they went independent.  Now, I saw a big change.”
       
      Change from what? if it was his first time in spain then what does he have to compare it against? 

    12. Macart says:

      Yes, just a scared old man. He’s terrified and worse been made to feel terrified of the future most of his life. He’s been made to feel small and consider himself and all other Scots somehow less worthy. I can’t be angry at him.
       
      But as for the bastards and who’ve perpetuated this picture for the past couple of years and those before them for many decades? Oh yes, I can be very, very angry with them.

    13. Doug says:

      Napoleon, the Moors, the Romans. At least 200 years old?

    14. naebd says:

      Okay, Peninsular War 1807. I think maybe we should listen to this guy – he has the kind of long range perspective of which few can boast.

    15. Taranaich says:

      This man must be very old. When it comes to Spain Going Separate I’m drawing a blank. Did Napoleon conquer Spain at one point?

       
      Ah, forgot about that: Napoleon did invade Spain, but never managed to fully conquer it.  It could be considered a war of independence, then, though as you say, it’d have to be a very old individual to remember that (and a very strange individual to think that the military occupation of France was preferable to independence…)

    16. From the bits of darlings speech I’ve read, it looks to me like he wrote it before the commons vote on Syria and no doubt it was originally full of how great that the UK as part of NATO can intervene against evil dictators etc
      Then after the vote he probably thought “bollocks, that’s my speech fucked, what will I do, start again? Nah fuck it, I can’t be arsed, instead of NATO military intervention i’ll put in UN diplomacy”.
      A lazy bodge is what the Syria stuff in his speech was. Which since it all came across as being in poor taste, he would have been better dropping it altogether.

    17. Murray McCallum says:

      I think just a very confused gentleman. Wonder if he thinks Spain left the EU and that’s to blame for their recession? Maybe he is taking about fall of Franco in mid 1970s and beginning of Republic?
       
      Anyway, nothing to do with Scottish independence like most of the BT speak.

    18. Susan says:

      We are doing our best up here in Western Isles, out and about 2 to 3 times a week.
      However, it is really sad to read this man’s little talk and rants.
      By the way, upon whom was Spain dependent on? 🙂

    19. Albalha says:

      @Mcart
      Yes that’s the reality. There were another two old Labour men, sitting with that chap, who asked questions about losing money on their state pension come independence and one, a shipbuilder, who said he believed ‘shipbuilding would die’ in an independent Scotland. I was truly angered and upset by their apparent slavish belief in the Labour Party narrative.
      If only they could have looked around them and seen that the people in the audience didn’t give a flyer about them or their lives.

    20. Ruby Tuesday says:

      Perhaps this Spaniard was referring to the time when Franco died and Spain was no longer a fascist state.    1975

    21. Murray McCallum says:

      Spain – should have said restoration of monarchy!
       
      I also think Darling’s speech was written early in the week well before the Syria vote. Just laziness and arrogance on his part – total lack of respect for the people who bother to turn up and listen to him.

    22. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Yes! I’ve been saying this for months to the Keyboard Commandos who insist (still) in arguing with the other side.”

      I’ve given up telling people. You’re not going to change Duncan Hothersall’s mind, or Ian Smart’s, or George Foulkes’s. Every minute you spend banging your brains out against their brick wall is a minute wasted. IGNORE them. (I’m usually better at it myself, but Twitter’s blocking seems to get more ineffectual every day.) They live on our rising to their bait. All they do is sow hatred and rancour, and not one person in Scotland will be won over by a Twitter conversation between you or me and Duncan Hothersall.

      Do whatever you can. Whatever skills you have – and we all have some – find a way to turn them to the service of a Yes vote. They want us to wrestle in the mud with them. But wrestling is fixed. Let’s get in a fight that means something.

    23. Paula Rose says:

      I’ve just been in contact with a Spanish friend of mine and she says that when the Franco regime went so did a lot of money to tax havens etc -so there was a problem with investment. I presume that is what the man means. Dictator’s cronies do tend to control an awful lot of dosh!

    24. Sylvie Capuano Burnett says:

      I think he was referring to the Catalans. He must have thought Catalonia was independent when he saw all their flags and bunting in the streets. Yeah definitely confused.lol

    25. Albalha says:

      @RubyTuesday
      He wasn’t a Spaniard he was from Glasgow but as you and @PaulaRose say it was probably post Franco he was referring to.

    26. Masson says:

      He must be really auld  so auld they must hae dug him up from the middle ages he must be that old he must have met El Cid, from when Spain broke away from the Moors or was it before that when they broke away from the Romans, and who was the businessman he was on about?

    27. DavidJFHalliday says:

      The question I’ll be asking when I pass that passage on is in what way, to what extent, at root, is it any different from the official, polished Better Together argument? I won’t be mocking the speaker as old, or confused or asking if he knew what he was on about. I’ll be saying that his words very fairly and succinctly reflect the essentials of the No side’s position. There’s really no more to it than those two paragraphs. That’s precisely why they’re so damning.

    28. liz says:

      Mark Coburn -I’ve been thinking the same myself. I spend a lot of time on the guardian and herald websites and have come to the conclusion that it is mainly a waste of time. Particularly trying to argue those who will not have a vote.
      Some people are glad to get more info which I have supplied mainly from sites such as WOS.
      I had decide to get out canvassing next year but after the latest poll – even though it is flawed – makes me think I need to get more active sooner. I am going to the Edinburgh march in September and hopefully will get more info on how to help there.

    29. Embradon says:

      I’m guessing he must be talking about the transition before or after Franco. Nothing else could be in living memory.
      Is this a rehash of “at least under Franco/Mussolini/Hitler the trains ran on time”?
      Actually they probably didn’t – it was just imprudent to complain.

    30. Ian Mackay says:

      I was actually first time in Spain, when they went independent.

      Maybe he’s talking about 1975 when Franco died, and Spain made the transition to a democracy. (As I very much doubt he’s talking about the end of the Spanish Civil War in 1939!)

      I’m just a hooligan!

      That would seem to fit with a longing for a fascist dictatorship, wouldn’t it?!
      If correct, this implies that he equates Better Together, British nationalism with a necessary fascism that Scottish independence would break.

      UKIP, BNP, Orange Order and the like: what interesting bedfellows these Better Together campaigners are!

    31. joe kane says:

      I’m just assuming the Dependence Campaign meeting speaker is favourably comparing the UK to Franco’s medieval theocratic authoritarian police state. Bringing an end to the Union would be like bringing an end to dictatorship. The reference to worried buisnessmen might be about the fact that strikes were illegal under the Spanish dictatorship.

    32. handclapping says:

      Confusing. How can the business men he spoke to when they went independent have been poorer. They would not have known. Maybe if he went after they went independent they were telling him that they had been poorer when they went independent and were now richer. And whose language were they using; it is usually better that you speak your own language and listen in theirs.

      But he’s right about Spain now. Just shows what a bubble built on property prices can do, so Gideon’s hopes are likely to come crashing but no doubt he hopes not when he’s still around to take the flak. Not that the flak is that bad, anybody remember who was the Chancellor that socialised the losses of the banks?

    33. Kiereann says:

      “the fact is now there is more unemployment, begging and everything”

      I agree this is indeed the case, but I would argue that it is a direct result of the global economic situation and absolutely nothing to do with independence.

    34. Ruby Tuesday says:

      @Caesar!lha

      Sorry I read the transcript and jumped to the conclusion that he was Spanish.    I don’t really understand what he is trying to say is he suggesting that Spain would have been better to remain a Fascist state and that the UK should become even more Fascist?

      I don’t think the info about pensions at 80yrs is accurate.  

    35. Marker Post says:

      I am wondering how Darling, McDougall et al on stage responded to this. Did they try to clarify the gentleman’s remarks, or did they all now knowingly and encourage him in his misbeliefs?
       

    36. Midgehunter says:

      I think the old man was a little bit mixed up and was in fact refering to the period when the dictator General Franco died in 1975 and with him the republic.
      The monarchy and democracy was restored with the installation of Juan Carlos as the king of Spain.
      “Went independent” as the old guy said.
       
      I wasn’t there at the “Launch” of the Glasgow Bitters but by the look of the people, premises in the photo and what was said, it must have been a huge damp squid.
      The Bitters send in their top (sic!!) leaders and what comes out would drive even the MSM to despair.
      Looking forward to WOS reports from the YES spies ..!

    37. seoc says:

      Whatever the gentleman’s dark experiences – the NO aficionados offered him reassurances that Scotland would be running with milk, honey and every other desirable commodity once they were in charge?
      Wait… they ARE in charge. So clearly we have no poverty, beggars, etc.

    38. jim mitchell says:

      Re the confused old gentleman, i wonder if he will remain so proud of all Britain stands for if today’s story that  Britain sold chemicals to Syria, from which it is possible to make Sarin gas proves true?  and after the fighting had started at that.
      And what will Britain say to the Americans? 

    39. Albalha says:

      @MarkerPost
      From the stage they lapped it up, no desire or attempt to clarify, I’m not sure how to put this, but in truth the chap concerned was a bit of a poor soul, as far as I could ascertain, great fodder for the likes of J Lamont and her ilk. I doubt I’ll ever be able to communicate how much I loathe the Labour Party of today.
      As for Blair McDougall he was up at the back monitoring the audience.

    40. Albalha says:

      @RubyTuesday
      I wouldn’t get too hung up on why exactly he said it, he may have been encouraged to do it in conversation with others, I don’t know. But he and the others with him were like sacrificial lambs to the Labour side of BT. Maybe I’m doing them down, I really don’t mean to.  But by my reckoning this was a room populated by Tories.
       

    41. Kendomacaroonbar says:

      “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still..”

      Some people will vote for the status quo regardless of the reasoned argument put before them, therefore crossing swords with unionist trolls on the MSM forums is really just a waste of time.
       
      I agree that we should all try to do something, no matter how small…whether it’s just a matter of plucking up the courage to talk to one person about the referendum debate…yes…one !  I know how difficult and socially awkward it can feel to bring up a subject that normally we avoid at social functions ( Football, Religion & Politics)… but just try..nothing heavy duty. 
       
      I explained to a colleague that after many years working for the same company I made a decision to leave… I had another job lined up, but the comfort zone of the familiarity of what I knew made me question my decision long and hard before I decided to jump ship.  I had normal family commitments, mortgage, car etc; but I knew I’d be okay because I believed in my ability to succeed in a new challenge.    I see the move to independence as no different a challenge…. Now that opened up a conversation where I listened, and answered as best I could the questions of my colleague. I’d sown a seed and left it at that.
       
      The only thing that prevents most people making big decisions is the fear of failure. The only thing we have as an independence movement to fear is fear itself.  Now you know why the BT guys are sold on the Project Fear mantra…it’s all they have.  I just wonder if they will have jobs lined up after the Yes vote ?

      http://tinyurl.com/pvrg7vv

    42. Albalha says:

      @RubyTuesday
      Forgot to add I think in Spain retirement will reach 67 way beyond the UK date!

    43. Monkeytail2002 says:

      Firstly, Spain became an independent nation in 1492 with the expulsion of the moors. It was eventually conquered by Napoleon and regained it’s independence in 1812 again. So if this fella is 201 years old I’d like to know his secret. Unless he means when Franco died and Spain transitioned into democracy in 1975. Which is not the same as gaining independence. Secondly Spains financial difficulties could be said to have been caused by the discovery of the Americas. The influx of gold to Spain caused the monarchy to get rid of bankers etc. in an attempt to control the gold. This tactic led to them not having any financial industry when the gold ran out and Spain had spent heavily on its empire. Spain was on its knees by the 18th century and has not recovered yet. How it is comparable to Scotland, I’ve yet to figure.

    44. HandandShrimp says:

      A bizarre statement indeed and one that would not exactly endear Better Together to Madrid (who I think they count as friends). Like others I can only assume he has mistaken the transition from fascist dictatorship to democracy as independence. God knows what darling and co. made of that? If they didn’t at least in part try to set him straight then more shame on them than the bewildered chap.

    45. Albalha says:

      I have to say I think the attempt to analyse why he asked what he did is akin to a Hitchcock MacGuffin, the point is he was expressing irrational fear which the BT bunch spread like a ruddy virus.

    46. Juteman says:

      I just find this very sad.

    47. Frazer Allan Whyte says:

      Are you sure that the man is not just a – shock horror- evil cybernat infiltrator mocking the laborO’tory rats? Nothing he is saying is in any way connected to anything even vaguely real. If even one of those House of Lord lickspittle wannabes nodded or gabbled once in approval then they’ve been outed as utterly ignorant. The only recent statement even more bizarre was A. Darling’s comments on Scotland losing influence in Syria-like situations as reported  straight-faced in the Guardian. I would suspect he had taken to drink except he was the warmonger’s right smarm when Tony Blair lied about WMDs so he’s either a fool or total scoundrel – actually he could be both… but congratulations to the NO for so clearly demonstrating their democratic credentials by holding a tickets only mass meeting where even the tickets are not honored.

    48. scottish_skier says:

      When I gave a 1/2 hr presentation in Edinburgh on the crystal growth inhibition of clathrate hydrates by polymeric low dosage inhibitors I had an audience of 600. 

    49. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The monarchy and democracy was restored with the installation of Juan Carlos as the king of Spain.
      “Went independent” as the old guy said.”

      Jings. So he was calling for the return of fascism?

    50. Albalha says:

      @juteman
      I was there and it was sad.

    51. Alan says:

      Scots have set up most countries in the world surely we can do it for ourselves.Dont believe the parcel of rogues who would have you believe we have no courage to tackle our future 

    52. HandandShrimp says:

      LOL
       
      So how many of the audience were actually Yes voters having a snoop?

    53. Doug Daniel says:

      I think what this shows you is that there are a lot of people out there who will vote No without engaging their brains in the slightest. It’ll just be “ah’m no huvin’ no bloody separatism!” The arguments you hear from ordinary punters in other public forums are just as illogical, although this guy certainly wins an award for originality.
       
      It is impossible to argue for the union using logic. It simply can’t be done. Unionism is inherently illogical, except for those who have vested interests in Scotland remaining in the union – namely Westminster MPs.

    54. muttley79 says:

      The Unionist politicians should have said something when the old guy mentioned Spain.  Basically the No campaign is about making enough people scared of change.  It will work on some people.  The problem of course is that causes the people of Scotland to collectively put themselves down.  No wonder so many Scots have self confidence problems.  It certainly does not lead to a healthy society.  People like Darling and Lamont do not care about this, they only want to preserve their positions in society.      

    55. Doug Daniel says:

      Oh and Stu – surely the title should have been “Fear and Self-Loathing in Glasvegas”?

    56. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Caesar!lha – So Blair McDougall had adopted the rear position? In the hall that is. How very apt.

    57. Dcanmore says:

      Basically this person just wanted to say something about how we should be together in Great Britain. Having actually nothing lucid to say in support of it that ties with his feelings, he came out with something daft. A bit like if Scotland became independent then we would be vulnerable to attack from Russia or China (or even NKorea), same absurdity really. Probably a lifelong Labour supporter who still thinks its 1968. The worse thing would be those muppets on the stage clapping away with a patronising nodding approval at the old guy as if he said something profound for their cause. They really are the cringe!

    58. BeamMeUpScotty says:

      Sounds like the guy had been on the sauce.Who wouldn’t at an event like this.
       

    59. Albalha says:

      @ArchienotErchie
      I was acutely aware of him as I’d firmly, but politely told the BT woman I was not moving to the front seats (to show a fuller crowd). As it all got going I was aware that three young BT cheerleaders were now sitting behind me and I reckon my non clapping, constant note taking was, well, obvious.
      And in my eyeline was, it has to be said, the somewhat tall standing figure of Blair McD, monitoring as much as he was interested in.

    60. Dcanmore says:

      O/T … Tory MP calls for a New Act of Union
       
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-23919439

    61. MajorBloodnok says:

      scottish_skier says: When I gave a 1/2 hr presentation in Edinburgh on the crystal growth inhibition of clathrate hydrates by polymeric low dosage inhibitors I had an audience of 600.

      Yes, but at least you had something tangible to talk about.

    62. I understand the concern and even the notion that we should all get off our backsides and do something but stop the bloody panicking.  I dont give a damn about the polls because they are in my view manufactured and misleading and deliberately so.  As I have often said I have never in my life been asked to do a survey for an opinion poll and I have never met anyone who has.  It is my opinion that those who carry out those surveys select specific areas and specific audiences in order to achieve specific results.
      I fully intend to get off my backside and participate in the campaign as I did during the days of the Poll Tax.  However, it is a huge mistake to trivialise the impact of the ‘Keyboard Commandos’ as some have put it.  There are over 750 Million facebook users and countless millions of users on other Social Networking forums.  It is vital that the Yes Campaigners continue to debate on those forums for various valid reasons.  Yes it is clear that we are unlikely to persuade those who are commited to the Negative Project Fear Campaign but sharing their comments and Negative bile is just as important as sharing our positive message.  The gentleman who gave that ill infromed negative comment about his visit to ‘Spain’ is typical of the negative ill informed comments in every single meeting held by ‘Better Together’.  No surprise given the relentless Negative Scaremongering Rhetoric coming from those who lead the Anti-Independence  Campaign.  I have always advocated that the best defense against such negativity and miss information is to expose it for what it is. 
      Remeber well that the Unionist Media and its discredited polsters had the Nationalists at least 15% behind in the opinion polls only days before the Holyrood elections in 2011 and we all know the actual result could not have been more opposite to that.  The electorate are not as stupid and uninformed as those who perpetuate the Negative Campaigning would like to think and it shall be that damned Negativity that shall prove their downfall and of that I am sure.
       
       

    63. Jim says:

      Of course, we shouldn’t spend our time arguing with them on news sites. Its an utter waste  of our best resource which is people power.
      Everyone can do something, from folding leaflets at home to out canvassing doors.
      Get leaflets from your local Yes contact, or from Labour for Independence, or whomever and get them through the doors of your locality. A couple of hundred every other weekend is a breeze and actually very good for your physical and mental health.
      First thing. Get to the march in Edinburgh and join the thousands who will be there. A great day out for all the family.

    64. Arbroath 1320 says:

      I can’t even be bothered to comment on the Muppet who saw Spain gain its independence.
       
      The only thing I’m curious about is what the Better Together crowd have as their answer as to why there so many empty seats and why they refused entry to so many people who had valid tickets for this most secret of public meetings?

    65. Ken Johnston says:

      Re Dcanmore.@ 8.16

      Funny you should say N. Korea.
      I had a Navy bod say just that to me  at a thing we were doing in Glasgow 2 weeks ago when I asked him what might worry him.
      I told him to go look at the Danish navy website and prepare to be envious. And them with 5.5 m of a population.
      Aye, the guy in the audience must have must have been thinking of after Franco’s demise.

    66. Albalha says:

      O/T Andy Murray through to next round in the US Open, Grand Slam.

    67. Doug Daniel says:

      Arbroath – indeed, I would be very interested to hear their explanation for turning people away with valid tickets. As if the whole thing didn’t seem extremely dodgy in the first place, they go and turn people away, and then have McDoofus patrolling at the back of the theatre. It’s all very sinister. 

      Ken Johnston – aye, the Danes are very proud of their navy. I was on a boat tour around Copenhagen this year, and the guide talked about their navy quite a bit.

    68. Stuart Black says:

      Anyone got a screenshot or whatever of this Sunday Mail smear job featuring Rev Stu?

    69. Edward Barbour says:

      Dcanmore says:
      1 September, 2013 at 8:32 pm

      O/T … Tory MP calls for a New Act of Union
      I’ve read previously Fabricant’s wittering’s about having a ‘New Act of Union’ BBC reporting the same stupid suggestion from an interview Fabricant did in Wales. This time adding that the United Kingdom was created by the Act of Union ‘It was the 1707 Act of Union between England and Scotland which created the United Kingdom‘ which just adds to the idea of how stupid Fabricant is. As everyone knows the United Kingdom was born from the ‘Treaty of Union’ in 1706, then ratified by Acts of union in each of the Parliaments of England and Scotland. Apparently, according to gormless Fabricant, FOUR nations that make up the United Kingdom and I always thought that Northern Ireland was a province of the United Kingdom

    70. Tris says:

      The retirement age in Spain is currently equalised at 65.
       
      The amount of the pension varies dependent on how long you ahve paid into the scheme.
       
      Having paid social security for 15 years (2 of which must have been in the last ten years before retirement  it is possible to claim a contributory pension based on a combination of the amount of years contributions and the amount actually paid, but there is a minimum which is considerably more than the welfare pension: 588€ a month or 8,229€ a year, rising to 10,152€ a year if you are married to someone who has no pension.  
       
      Those who have made the maximum contributions can receive up to 35,000€ pa.
      http://www.advoco.es/advice/14-health-a-social-security/78-spanish-pension-benefits.html

    71. SteveW says:

      Totally agree with the sentiment at the end. This lack of confidence among Scots is one of the reasons we need to progress and the only way of doing this is to acheive our independence.
      It makes me spit with rage when I see bastards like Darling, McDougal and their cronies in the media exploit this vulnerability in many of the Scottish people. They are no different from the slimebag sales people who rip off savings from the elderly.
      That’s why we need a website like this – taking apart the shit that BT and the rest keep spewing. Keep up the great work Rev and don’t hold any punches, they don’t deserve niceties.
      Vote YES!!!!

    72. Albalha says:

      @Stuart Black
      It’s a sidebar on page 15 titled ….KANE WINGS’ DING DONG WRONG (with the WOS wings logo above).
      Opening paragraph; The YES campaign have distanced themselves from a leading pro-independence blogger after online rows.
      An old photograph of Stuart, less than flattering, a truncated response from him, but perhaps more amusingly the main story on the double page spread is that Gordon Brown Goes Red ….. it seems he’s Jimmy Reid reincarnated.
      This is the first time in my 51 years I’ve bought this paper.
      Labour party supporting, as if all its journalists are on a cocktail of speed and acid laced with ground down Nu Labour doctrine.
       

    73. David Milligan Lvss says:

      Dear Rev Stu,
      I tried to login to the Scotsman today to respond to the latest poll story.  I found I couldn’t login.  I asked the question of other members of the League of very Sovereign Scots to see if they had the same experience.
      It’s becoming clear that any pro-indy commenters are being removed.  Can you ask your readers to try logging into the Scotsman and report back on their experiences. We have one member who did manage to comment this morning but has since been booted out.
      Is this what we’ve come to?  Is a newspaper with the name the Scotsman censoring any pro-indy posters?
      Please check this out for yourself.
      Kindest regards,
      David Milligan Lvss 

    74. Clydebuilt says:

      Quote Rev. Stu.
      “Every minute you spend banging your brains out against their brick wall is a minute wasted. IGNORE them. They live on our rising to their bait. All they do is sow hatred and rancour, and not one person in Scotland will be won over by a Twitter conversation between you or me and Duncan Hothersall.
      Do whatever you can. Whatever skills you have – and we all have some – find a way to turn them to the service of a Yes vote. They want us to wrestle in the mud with them. But wrestling is fixed. Let’s get in a fight that means something.”

      Right on Rev. Stu……. I’m right behind ya!
       
      LETS GET THIS SHIT DONE!

    75. Stuart Black says:

      Caesar!lha, thanks for that, I knew yesterday it was scheduled, couldn’t quite bring myself to buy it, mind. 😉

    76. BobW says:

      I’ve put a PDF of the smear here –

      bobwar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/WingDing.pdf

      I’ll leave it there for a few days.

      I admit to buying this ‘news’ paper, it’s inertia I tells you, I was brought up on the Record, Mail and Post. I’m not taking all of the blame for supporting them (by purchase), I blame my dad.

    77. Albalha says:

      @stuartblack
      I just can’t resist the lure of a story, it’s a failing, what’s a dame to do. And the buggers didn’t post it online, hey ho. £1.40 down, so it goes, as Kurt V was wont to say..

    78. BobW says:

      Caesar!lha
       
      If I’d been quicker, I could have saved you the expense. 🙂

    79. Robert McDonald says:

      Huh! I didn’t get an invite despite registering. Must have been my three or four posts here. 

    80. Stuart Black says:

      Thanks BobW, interesting photo, not sure they’ve caught his reverential side there :).
       
      @Caesar!lha, don’t reproach yourself, I looked online for it, and it crossed my mind to actually buy the thing when I came up empty-handed. Did you enjoy your Mitchell Library sojourn?

    81. John Lind says:

      Was this chap REALLY around in the 15th century to see Spanish independence? I worry about the sanity of some people.

    82. BobW says:

      Rev Stu said somewhere that it’s a 20yr old photo. The SM trawled it from the depths of the interweb. I hate to think what that hairstyle looks like now though.

    83. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Doug – Yes I noticed a banner line on RT.com earlier on this evening about the same but just put it down to some propaganda. However I think the crapola is about to hit the fan bigtime.

    84. Robert McDonald says:

      David Milligan Lvss
      My login hasn’t been used for a wee while but seems to be a problem with logging in.

    85. call me dave says:

      The Business Secretary, Vince Cable, will on Monday be asked by MPs to explain why a British company was granted export licences for the dual-use substances for six months in 2012 while Syria’s civil war was raging and concern was rife that the regime could use chemical weapons on its own people. 
      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/government-let-british-company-export-nerve-gas-chemicals-to-syria-8793642.html

    86. Somebody says:

      Rev, considering how popular this site is becoming, would you consider allowing some readers to have an article published here explaining our own reasons for supporting independence? I mean, I figure it would be an interesting way to reach out to some undecided people, and may help them make their decision if they see the reasons that we’ve made ours.
      I’m just a creative writer, but I’d be more than willing to write out an article explaining why I’m keen to see a YES vote next year. 
       

    87. Doug says:

      Lower than a snake’s belly. Like the old joke about Rumsfeld and Iraqi WMDs (“ee kept the receipt”).  They may try  the claim they sold the chemicals for peaceful purposes?

    88. Marcia says:

      Bob W
      Thanks for copying and putting it up for us to see.
      What a load of keech as we say here in Dundee.  I am not referring to his hairstyle!
       

    89. Hetty says:

      Sorry I haven’t read all of the comments above, just some. Perhaps some training in how to deal with hostile ‘no’s’ and how to respond to the verbal abuse ( usually in the form of a bullying type of put down, ‘excuse me madam!’ type stuff), and then on a good day, I for sure would be keen to get out there and not just pass things on via facebook etc. It’s called being assertive, I find that the anti-Independence folk can be really quite aggressive, so action in numbers, with local campaigning would be great. I’m sure it’s happening already, just not enough.

    90. Morag says:

      I’ve put a PDF of the smear here –
      bobwar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/WingDing.pdf
      I’ll leave it there for a few days.
       
      There are several utterly hilarious features there.

      First, since when did “several people have a falling-out on Twitter” become something to write even a small newspaper article about?

      Second, what does it amount to?  Pat Kane has unfollowed RevStu.  Er, why does Pat Kane’s opinion matter to anyone?  And the Yes campaign confirm that WoS is not part of Yes Scotland.  In other news, water is still wet.

      Third, they decorate the article with a photo of a boy who looks about 15, with a silly hairdo.  If they’d left it at that, that could have been quite an insidious hatchet job.  However, they completely spoil the effect by giving Stu’s age as 45.  (Stu says the photo is 20 years old.  Well he was an awfully young-looking 25-year-old is all I can say.)

      Here, is this the best they can do?  “Cat stuck up tree” would be more newsworthy.

    91. Morag says:

      Somebody said:
      Rev, considering how popular this site is becoming, would you consider allowing some readers to have an article published here explaining our own reasons for supporting independence? I mean, I figure it would be an interesting way to reach out to some undecided people, and may help them make their decision if they see the reasons that we’ve made ours.
       
      Several articles exactly like that have already been published here.  I’m about 200% sure Stu welcomes contributions of that nature.

    92. big_al says:

      @BobW
      Rev Stu said somewhere that it’s a 20yr old photo. The SM trawled it from the depths of the interweb. I hate to think what that hairstyle looks like now though.
       
      That photo is one of several posted online by the cabal of stalkers hounding the rev. Wouldn’t surprise me if it was part of the ‘dossier’ that was distributed to journalists the other week by said loons.

    93. Morag says:

      Hetty said:
      Perhaps some training in how to deal with hostile ‘no’s’ and how to respond to the verbal abuse ( usually in the form of a bullying type of put down, ‘excuse me madam!’ type stuff), and then on a good day, I for sure would be keen to get out there and not just pass things on via facebook etc. It’s called being assertive, I find that the anti-Independence folk can be really quite aggressive, so action in numbers, with local campaigning would be great. I’m sure it’s happening already, just not enough.
       
      http://www.yesscotland.net/neilhay/ambassador_canvassing_training_edinburgh_south

      That’s just one example training course, because they don’t seem to have a separate list of them – they’re just included as part of the events being publicised.  There was one in Galashiels last week.  They’re all over the place.

      I think Yes Scotland may have made too big a deal about this “ambassador” status.  The courses are open to anyone who just wants the sort of basic pointers you describe.  I was talking to one of the trainers the other week and he said a couple of people had snuck out when he intimated there was going to be some role-playing, and he felt bad for not making it clear right at the beginning that nobody had to take part if they didn’t want to.

      Check your own local area for similar events.  If nothing is scheduled, check back, or widen the search area.

    94. Albalha says:

      @StuartBlack
      Not much into self reproaching as it goes. On the BT sojourn, enjoyment no, curiosity sort of, overall left rather sad and deflated to be frank.
      If the YES side doesn’t convince people that their pensions etc will be safe, we’re screwed imho.
      The BT lot have form, we just need to have the honest, clear arguments to counter their well polished bullshit.

    95. john king says:

      scottish skier says
      “When I gave a 1/2 hr presentation in Edinburgh on the crystal growth inhibition of clathrate hydrates by polymeric low dosage inhibitors I had an audience of 600. ”

      Is that when The formation of gas hydrates in gas and oil subsea pipelines often results in blockage and shutdown of these pipelines. Modern control methods depend on understanding the mechanisms through which gas hydrates form. This paper reviews our recent studies of clathrate hydrate formation and inhibition mechanisms using neutron diffraction, differential scanning calorimetry (DSC) and a multiple cell photo-sensing instrument. The structural transformations of water around methane during methane hydrate formation have been studied using neutron diffraction with isotope substitution over the temperature range 4–18 °C and at pressures of 3.4–14.5 MPa. The hydration sphere around methane in the liquid only changes significantly when methane hydrate is formed, with the water shell in the crystalline hydrate being about 1 Å larger than the shell in the liquid. The hydration shell is disordered during methane hydrate formation, with ordering of solvent separated methane molecules occurring only when hydrate has formed. The effects of the addition of three low dosage hydrate inhibitors, PVP, VC-713 and QAB on THF hydrate formation at the surface and in bulk solution have been examined. The QAB inhibitor exhibits the greatest hydrate crystal growth control, while VC-713 is most effective at inhibiting hydrate nucleation. Insight into the perturbations on host and guest molecules due to the presence of these inhibitor molecules has been obtained.?
      why didn’t you say so, I would have paid to see you do that 🙂
       

    96. john king says:

      could it be the auld boy is the young guy with the wee dug who likes sausage rolls grandad? 😉

    97. Thepnr says:

      David Milligan Lvss says:
       
      Is this what we’ve come to?  Is a newspaper with the name the Scotsman censoring any pro-indy posters?
       
      With still more than a year to go the establishment is clinging desperately to the last remnants of power, their weakness is made obvious by stooping to censorship such as this. It is so blatant that 99% of the population wouldn’t believe it.
       
      George Orwell got it right except the book should have been titled 2014.
       
      “The Ministry of Peace concerns itself with war, the Ministry of Truth with lies, the Ministry of Love with torture and the Ministry of Plenty with starvation. These contradictions are not accidental , nor do they result from from ordinary hypocrisy: they are deliberate exercises in doublethink”

    98. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ John King & SS – Oh bless – For us mere mortals a view from above. I had an audience of 17 once when enroute to a semisub and we were diverted to look at a disturbance on the sea surface. Green glowing? water, froth and bubbles over a 100sqm area. We had an onboard committee meeting and it was recommended that we should depart at great speed. It appears that inhibitors in the seabed gasline were well and truly perturbed and disordered. Crystal Meth? I prefer bacon butties. 🙂

    99. Peter says:

        On the topic of journalistic smears.   It is interesting that glasgow shares the same deluded maudlin self-love and conceit about being such a lovely funny friendly place, filled with salt-of-the-Earth citizens with Liverpool.   Same labour rule, massive unemployment and ill-health too.  And an absolute refusal to ever face the truth without blaming everybody and anybody else for your problems. 
         It is the single biggest lie about a certain soccer related incident that there was literally nothing that any of the fans could do to sop it happening. And anybody who says otherwise is a Sun reading tory voting Everton supporter from South Yorkshire constabulary.

    100. Taranaich says:

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTGnOdDCEAA6M7o.png
       
      Oh dear God.
       
      Just when you think you can’t get more disgusted by the government, something like this comes along. I mean, I know the UK is one of the top arms dealers in the world, but even chemical weapons!?! (OK, OK, components which could make chemical weapons, true, but for crying out loud they must’ve known there was a war going on, right?)

    101. BobW says:

      Caesar!lha 10.26
      They can polish a turd as much as they like but it’ll still look like a turd, smell like a turd and anyone who steps in it will certainly recognise it as such. I have faith that the majority of Scottish residents can recognise excreta however much it’s been burnished.

    102. Jim says:

      I read the SM today and saw the expected article on Rev Stu. I found it ridiculous that any newspaper could print a story about such an event as two independence supporters having an argument with each other on twitter LOL.
      I suspect in this case that any publicity is indeed good publicity and WoS’ readership will have increased yet again.
      That aside, Google has informed me that my email has been hacked into with a list of things that might be occurring as a result of the hacking. Has anyone else experienced such a problem?
      A couple of months ago I tore into a lady on the east coast for having a political go at one of my posts on my Home Facebook page (strictly friends and family). We both had conversations elsewhere and exchanged email addresses. She turned out to be a friend of one of my sisters. She knew nothing about “her” posts and we are now friends on Facebook. She was a Yes supporter and a Greenpeace supporter and had been getting emails from apparently the EDL. Obviously her accounts had been hacked into. But why “her” posts to me?
      My mind is boggling but unconcerned. If they hit me once, I will hit them a thousand times, albeit with 1000 Yes leaflets through the doors of my neighbourhood!
      They used to kill and torture people who campaigned for the basic human right of self-determination , now they are just prats. Get those leaflets through the doors and get to Edinburgh for the march next month. Today is the first day of the rest of our lives!

    103. Doug Daniel says:

      BobW – cheers for putting the Sunday Mail article up. It’s amazing what passes for journalism these days. “Hey you, go and write a couple of hundred words based around these two tweets. Make sure you mention Yes Scotland and Blair Jenkins as much as possible. Oh, and here’s a photo of the guy when he was in his 20s with a mad haircut.”

    104. Andrew Morton says:

      Just watched the BBC Caesar! documentary ‘Diomhair’ on YouTube. It made me boil with rage, not at Westminster and the British Establishment for doing what they do, it’s what you expect. No, my rage is aimed at my fellow Scots who stare at the ground and shuffle their feet when confronted with this stuff and tell you that they’re happy with things the way they are.

    105. john king says:

      doug daniel says
      “Oh, and here’s a photo of the guy when he was in his 20s with a mad haircut.”
      was that a haircut/ I thought he was bald and had a half formed wheetabix on his head?
      sorry rev couldn’t resist it, I had a really bad hair day for years when I was a kid

    106. john king says:

      here’s one for those idiots in the press, 
      why don’t they go down the Rev Jim Jones road?
      waiting for the rev to lure his flock of sheep to a clearing in the jungle, and give us all a wee drink of gator aid while he tucks us up to sleep 
      They’d even supply the gator aid!
       
      DO YOU ALL THINK WE’RE AS STUPID AS YOU?

    107. David Martin says:

      I suspect he was going on about pre and post Franco, which is appalling, like the Russians that hanker for the good old days under the Soviets. Stockoholm Syndrome indeed.

    108. scaredy cat. says:

      Can anyone suggest ways that I can help the cause but still remain anonymous? I am forbidden from campaigning by my employer.I’m going to the march though.I’ll be the one with a paper bag over my head.

    109. Albalha says:

      @scaredycat
      I reckon as time goes on there will be an increasing number of events throughout Scotland organised by YES Scotland groups, RIC groups etc, maybe you could help out with the organisation side of it. Phone calls etc.
      It’s something I’m doing this week for an event on Saturday. You’d obviously have to reveal who you are to someone, anyway just a thought.

    110. Albalha says:

      @Taranaich
      Re the article on chemical components, for the first time I had my posting of that link taken down on the Guardian, normally there’s no problem with drawing attention to other articles. It was there for a good while, third up in the Live coverage, so I’m guessing someone, somewhere didn’t like it.

    111. scaredy cat. says:

      @Caesar!lha
      Thanks for that. I’ll keep my ears open. It’s frustrating not being able to do more without risking my job. It’ a pity that so many people are in this position.

    112. john king says:

      @scardy cat
      I think its shocking your not allowed to take part in perfectly legal activity on behalf of your chosen party/group 
      I wonder if you were a tory they would have such an attitude?
      besides what you do in your spare time is none of their damn buisness

    113. john king says:

      archie not erchie says 
      “john king SS oh bless”
      time to fess up 
      in danger of being done fro plagiarism 
      I just copy and pasted that from the internet, for all I know it was SS wot wrote it,
      but hey thanks, you know when your doing a good job of irony when others believe it 🙂

    114. CameronB says:

      Perhaps the gentleman meant Spain has fallen apart since it became a democracy. That would mean that this particular BT supporter favours fascist dictatorships.

    115. john king says:

      talking of irony heres a sign you could put up at the next better the gither meeting
       

    116. Albalha says:

      @johnking
      It’s not that uncommon. I was working in London when the Iraq war march took place. We’d been told that from my paygrade and above we couldn’t go.
      Thankfully I put my case to my direct boss who gave me permission, as it were.
      I would have gone anyway, much like @scaredycat is going on 21st September.

      And it had nothing to do with political party allegiance, if you had one.
       

    117. CameronB says:

      David Martin
      Just spotted your post. Snap.

    118. john king says:

      post above was meant to have a picture which didn’t happen
      which said 
      THE PROCRASTINATORS MEETING HAS BEEN POSTPONED
       

    119. john king says:

      I don’t like being told what to do, but I get your situation where your job is at risk, and I do get in some professions its not advisable to put yourself in a position which could affect your professional integrity but like you said albalha he/she who stands and waits also serves

    120. Andrew Morton says:

      Here’s a thought. Why not crowd fund adverts in the Hootsmon, Herald, Record, Courier and P&J. Ditto STV, Borders and Grampian? At the moment I suspect you’re getting many hits from committed Yes folks but are you reaching the Don’t Knows?
      Would love to picture the torment on the MSM’s faces as they take the Independence shilling.

    121. scottish_skier says:

      why didn’t you say so, I would have paid to see you do that
       
      LOL. That one’s not me. I wouldn’t use DSC (other than for e.g. heat capacity or heat of fusion) as it has problems for clathrate hydrates in terms of achieving equilibrium as the gas and the water are not well mixed in a typical DSC cell.
       
      As for my audience; Better Together wouldn’t have approved as there were lots of ‘foreigners’ present.

    122. Patrick Roden says:

      I used to post on the Herald comments pages thinking I was doing my bit, but since they only let click bait and dependency type commenters flourish I realised my time and effort was better served posting on wings and LFI etc, in the hope that some information seeking don’t knows would read it.
      I also don’t want to do anything that would help fund what is no more than a Propaganda Sheet, so don’t post there now.  

    123. Bill McLean says:

      Me too Patrick – Herald no more!

    124. proudscot says:

      I wonder how many foodbanks the old Labour guy saw when over in his “newly independent” Spain? We have plenty of these in “Better Together” Scotland at the present time. I bet this fact wasn’t mentioned either by Darling’s fellow ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s at the meeting.

    125. Ken Johnston says:

      Ah, foodbanks.
      Call Kaye this morning. One of her subjects. Heard 4, I think, guys calling in. One was a ratepayers association person, Very educated English. Kaye asked him his views, and essentially it came down to not enough low-paid jobs. Kaye sounded a bit surprised.
      The other 3, 2 said the only cure was independence and the third was highly indignant, as he should be, at the absolute disgrace of it, Kaye did not say yea or nae.

    126. Jingly Jangly says:

      Re Spain becoming independent for the first time, I guess the guy in the audience was
      a Mr M Moore as Spain regained its independence from the Moor(e’s) in the middle ages…
       

    127. G H Graham says:

      It’s very simple; the person whose words are transcribed here is an incoherent idiot, overwhelmed, consumed & blinded by British propaganda such that he is unable to form a rational argument.
      Thus his emotional outburst is a contrived jumble of words with no specific meaning except that they represent a person who is completely convinced that Scotland, despite being a shite country has no prospect of rising above its station & will at best, remain stubbornly shite but only within the Union.



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