Blair McDougall Fact Check
(No. 3246 in a long and continuing series.)
The “Better Together” campaign director has a lengthy piece on the right-wing Labour “Progress Online” website today, which we won’t trouble ourselves with the usual disingenuous content of. We’re not even going to challenge the comical assertion that “recent polls show that support for independence currently stands at just one in four”, because if you’re selective enough it IS possible to find outliers with wildly flawed methodology producing that sort of number.
There was one claim we WOULD like to clarify, though.
It’s buried below a veritable mudslide of untruth, starting with this passage:
“The first thing to understand about the referendum is that it is taking place in spite of the level of support for independence, rather than because of it. Alex Salmond has worked hard since he became first minister to try and tell the people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland that we here in Scotland are somehow desperate to break away from them. In telling this particular story he is being dishonest.”
Wait, what? When has Alex Salmond ever told the people of the rest of the UK that Scotland is desperate to break away from them? This summer the First Minister was emphasising the “five unions” between the people of the British Isles that would remain strong and healthy even if Scotland voted to end the political one.
We’re not aware of his ever claiming, in his entire political career, that “we in Scotland” were “desperate to break away from” the UK, only that it was the belief of himself and his party and a substantial percentage of the population.
But hey, if we were to stop and question every false claim made by Blair McDougall we’d never get anything else done. He is, after all, the least-trusted man in Scotland, with a staggering 81% of people who’ve heard him speak believing that he’s always or mostly lying. So let’s cut to the chase, skip past the next few fibs and get straight to the one we’re interested in.
“Indeed, 55 per cent of people who said that they voted for the Scottish National party in 2011 have said that they are not in favour of independence.”
We had to do some digging, but we eventually found what we assume to be the poll in question (because it’s the only one we can find with a relevant 55% figure in it, or even a 45% one that would produce it by implication).
It’s this TNS-BMRB one from last month – a survey so unsound it suggested Labour won the 2011 Holyrood election, leading psephologist Prof. John Curtice to note “Such a divergence from what actually happened in 2011 is bound to raise questions about whether TNS’s sample adequately reflects the nation’s political balance”.
The poll’s findings were deeply questionable in all sorts of ways (among them a suggested referendum turnout of just 62%, far below what any other pollster has ever recorded), but that wasn’t enough for Mr McDougall, who appears to have decided that they needed to be embellished with some flat-out lies.
Because that poll didn’t find 55% of SNP voters “not in favour of independence”. It found 55% were in favour, with just 19% opposed and the other 26% not expressing an opinion either way.
It may be, of course, that Blair McDougall was referring to a different poll, one which has eluded our attempts to find it on Google. But we keep a pretty close eye on these things, and if there’d been a poll showing something as spectacular as over half of SNP supporters opposing independence we’re fairly sure we’d remember it.
Perhaps Mr McDougall will drop us a line and point us in the direction of his figures.
I’m sure it’s a simple misunderstanding, because Blair McDougall is a real stand-up guy and there’s no way he would even dream of trying to tell people lies.
Oh by the way, anyone want some magic beans?
Dog bites man stuff. Blair lies through his teeth. Another Bliar!
So frustrating…surely there must be some way to hold these lies to account in a court of law…??
The No camp have found they can lie with impunity,no challenge from BBC or print, but with the figures for the number of people reading this site, they’ve got serious, serious problems., hiding it.
So each unreported lie digs a deeper hole for the TV and print media.
Looks like Derek Bateman is preparing some stuff about the BBC, from reading his last blog. Newsnet Scotland say they are also preparing files on the BBC.
And no doubt now that the Scottish Health Service is going to be taken over to be in line with the English NHS. Alastair Darling saying it may be administered in Scotland but… So along with Andy Burnan’s statements of common health policies across ‘England, Scotland and Wales’, it’s coming.
Labour want Holyrood to be put back to being an executive office for Westminster, as it was when they were in power here. Much more to come I would think. Wjat’s left to sell after Scottish Health; Scottish Water?
DanTDog
They should be held to account after a yes vote. I would love to see a private case brought against them.
Scottish Labour Handbook
Chapter One
When you can’t win by stating the truth then lie, lie and lie again. That is all.
It is my growing belief, that folk out there, who don’t follow politics, are slowly becoming aware that something is not right with the ‘No’ camp.
I read one article yesterday, in which the Scottish media in some quarters, are now being viewed with a certain amount of unease south of the border.
The reporter pointed out that the likes of the BBC, STV, and the newspapers, north of the border, refuse to condemn or attack the ‘No’ camp in anyway! As he put it, if they refuse to find any faults within the ‘No’ camp, even when it is glaringly obvious that there is, then the Scottish people when they do cotton on, are going to be very mistrustful of not only the ‘No’ camp, but also of the media. As he pointed out, this blatant attempt to deceive the people of Scotland, could slowly build to a point, where nothing that they say, will ever be trusted. In other words, it could backfire spectacularly on the ‘No’ camp and the media if it reaches a certain level.
With the No camp refusing to tell us anything, and with the Prime Minister even hiding, I believe it gives the Yes campaign grounds to be patient, and just keep telling it the way it is. The more folk that convert to Yes, means that there will be more folk telling the truth to others.
And if that happens, then there will be a tipping point between the media and the people of Scotland. At some point, accusations are going to fly in the direction of the media from the people of Scotland.
There is a subtle way you can tell when he’s lying/embellishing/exaggerating/misleading/misrepresenting.
His lips move. 🙂
In any other country Mr. McDougall would be a ("Tractor" - Ed). Perhaps next year we can hold these people to account.
Good luck with the Fact Hunt.
Craig M
If we secure a Yes vote the BBC will become the SBC and I think it will realign its priorities and battlelines.
On Better Together’s loose spin on facts and figures well an occasional dip into the BetterTogether Facebook page will quickly appraise one of the preferred modus operandi. …they really are scamps when it comes to distorting things. ProJect Fear? Project Fib Your Pants Off more like.
I wonder how long it will be before the lies, sorry TRUTH, from Blair McDougall’s own fair mouth find their way into BBC and MSM TRUTHFUL articles and being quoted as fact without any rebuttal permitted, as is usual, from anyone in the YES camp!
As JLT says the tipping point is edging ever closer, it can only now be a matter of time before there is a massive collapse in people believing a word from BBC/MSM and then we will see a massive upsurge in the support for YES in my view.
Hello,
Perhaps some who haven’t already might like to sign this petition. “The Scottish Government: Approach the OSCE and request an election monitoring mission.”
Raising awareness and all that
link to change.org
@JLT
The No campaign and the MSM in Scotland are one and the same. There are a number of exceptions (Lesley Riddoch, McWhirter, Kevin McKenna, Joyce MacMillan, Gerry Hassan etc), but essentially they are on the same side. They will not put them under scrutiny because they generally share the same opinions and self interests.
They lie so much now and in the past, that they do look tired, so many lies over a long time, not forgoten by those lied to, but easily forgoten by the lier, Defence against this loss of memory, saps the energy, eventually bringing the lier to his/her knees. I did what I was told.
1 October, 2013 at 12:24 pm
@heraldnomore
Regarding the Derek Bateman debate I had with a few of you on Friday 27th sept. I was suggesting that Mr Bateman should come clean with what he knows regarding the links in “Project Fear” between BBC Scotland and Scottish Labour. Now I don’t know if Mr Bateman got word about our heated discussion, but by coincidence, he has blogged today on this very subject.
Now he hasn’t exactly “spilled the bean,” but he is gradually opening the door into enlightening us of the goings on at Pacific Quay. We all know that the link between BBC Scotland and Scottish Labour exists, we just don’t have the proof in black and white. As I said on Friday and I repeat again to you today, ”Mr Bateman, cleanse yourself of this burden that you must have on your shoulders and tell the people of Scotland the truth”.
YOU ARE ALMOST THERE.
surely lying about a referendum is going to be pretty easy after lying to take our country (scotland) to war resulting in possibly 1 million deaths. these liars also need held to account, and dragged screaming and kicking to the hague
Post Independence I am not one of thoe that believes in letting bygones be bygones .
Liars like McDougall ,Lamont ,Rennie ,Davidson , Murphy ,Brown, Darling ,Boothman , Douglas Fraser , Glen Campbell ,the lot of the corrupt MSM and broadcasters should be put on trial for treason.
Every Scottish schoolchild forever more should know the names and crimes of those who acted against the interests of Scotland and the Scottish people.
Words like rope, and lamp posts spring to mind
“Scottish people when they do cotton on, are going to be very mistrustful of not only the ‘No’ camp, but also of the media. As he pointed out, this blatant attempt to deceive the people of Scotland, could slowly build to a point, where nothing that they say, will ever be trusted.”
I hit that point quite some time back. The big problem the media have is that if they blatantly lie about something you happen to know about, you no longer trust them to inform you on issues you don’t. And a media you can’t trust is just toilet paper or white noise.
I wonder if Bateman’s recent ‘free’ status has figured at all in the one or two recent examples of something approaching fairness by BBC Scotland?
Strangely it wasn’t the Referendum that confirmed my lack of trust in the BBC , and the whole WMD stuff aside , it was a couple of years ago when millions gathered in Madrid (I think ) to protest along with Occupy etc. The demo had been going for 2 days and was all over the internet but it took the BBC 2 days to report it. Which confirmed to me how unbalanced a machine it is.
As for Progressonline being a radical and progressive lobby group , why was Blair Mcdougall asked for his views as he represents nothing either radical or progressive although perhaps I under estimate him , perhaps he should be forever be known as that chap the radical Blair Mcdougall.Who fought for Scotland from behind closed doors and secret meetings with an army of Labour activists from Newcastle intent on giving Scotland, Labours wisdom and guile which had kept the nation in riches and the people singing happily in the streets- sorry got a bit carried away there ….
Just to let Wing readers know that there will be a debate between Blair Jenkins and Blair McDougall on 30th October as part of the Five Million Questions Project at Dundee University. Tickets will be free but are not available yet as there are other events arranged before this one. This is one of a series of events being organised by Dundee Uni, I’ve been along to a few of them already.
It would appear that Blair McDougall is prepared to debate with Blair Jenkins as long as Wings is not arranging it??
You can sign up to the Five Million Question newsletter here…
link to fivemillionquestions.org
I’ve never posted a link before so if it doesn’t work , could you do the honours please Rev Stu?? Thanks!
Steady on Rod Mac, many of those may genuinely believe they are saving Scotland from itself. Even for those which are purely career driven, so what? A lot of people in a lot of different fields are as well.
Let’s keep it to banter eh?
The comments under BMcD’s piece in ‘Progress’ (sic) are very enjoyable and cheered me up this morning.
And since BMcD is keen on using old (mis)quotes I thought I’d share this wee nugget from the past:a 2010 online piece about David Miliband’s party leadership campaign, of which the ‘safe pair of hands’ campaign organiser/manager was BMcD:
“With this kind of financial backing it’s difficult to imagine how David Miliband can lose. His campaign simply dwarfs that of his opponents with a huge machinery and on-the-ground operation.”
The most amazing thing to me is that regardless of a YES vote next Spet, someone like Blair will still find an eager employer, cue the Daily Record signing him up for a column etc. God know why but i’d bet my bottom dollar on it.
Project Fear have obviously implemented Operation John West ( Get Salmond) and are now trying to portray Alex Salmond as a liar, a dictator and a man who refuses to listen to his people. Syria tactics in Scotland.
This is how desperate they have become. A non-entity like Blair and various unliked Unionist party leaders all lobbing insults to a man who is respected in his nation. Biggest insult alone is daring to rank our nations leader with a disrespected ex-Chancellor who cant even command a shadow cabinet post.
Good, its at their peril.
They can try and poke the bear all they want, but heaven help them when hibernation is over!
Who is Blair McDougall? The reason I ask as it’s unfair to criticise ordinary members of the public who have no defence. Once they have chosen to enter the public arena then it’s fair game! Is this person in high office? Who is he?
As a New Labour activist I fear Blair McDougall has long since lost his moral compass.
It must have been 10 years ago that New Labour socialist hero Lord Prescott said about then New Labour leader “Tony doesn’t tell lies”. The sad truth is that since Tony left to identify military intervention targets in the Middle East as part of his peace mission, New Labour have lost this moral authority.
“Biggest insult alone is daring to rank our nations leader with a disrespected ex-Chancellor who cant even command a shadow cabinet post.”
And with no authority to answer questions pertaining to the UK Governments post referendum position. whether a Yes or No result.
I am concerned at the number of commenters on this site who are flinging around the notion that people in the No campaign or the media ‘are ("Tractor" - Ed)s’ and should be ‘strung up’. I strongly suspect that at least some of them may be No trolls who will then be able to point to these remarks and cite them as proof that the Yes campaign is harbouring extremists. Can I suggest Rev. that as a matter of routine you delete all such comments.
Rod Mac says:
1 October, 2013 at 12:44 pm
Post Independence I am not one of thoe that believes in letting bygones be bygones…
Oh my! This rant looks a little too troll-like for my liking.
@Rod Mac – a bit less of the talk about “treason” “ropes” and Lamp-posts” if you don’t mind. What do you want people to think we are ffs?!!!!
As long as all those people are made political history, I’ll be happy and they can get on with the rest of their sad little lives
“Who is Blair McDougall? The reason I ask as it’s unfair to criticise ordinary members of the public who have no defence. Once they have chosen to enter the public arena then it’s fair game! Is this person in high office? Who is he?”
He is Campaign Director of the No Campaign. Not an elected position (self-raising? 😉 )
“Can I suggest Rev. that as a matter of routine you delete all such comments.”
Concur, bearing in mind that the Rev. is down with the dreaded lurgy.
Rod Mac
Rabbie Burns said it better than we ever could. !
@Rod Mac
Post Independence I am not one of thoe that believes in letting bygones be bygones .
Liars like McDougall ,Lamont ,Rennie ,Davidson , Murphy ,Brown, Darling ,Boothman , Douglas Fraser , Glen Campbell ,the lot of the corrupt MSM and broadcasters should be put on trial for treason.
Every Scottish schoolchild forever more should know the names and crimes of those who acted against the interests of Scotland and the Scottish people.
Words like rope, and lamp posts spring to mind.
I am not sure why you insist on making these disturbing comments? It certainly does not help the Yes campaign.
@Alan
Blair McDougall:
an election organiser for Labour in Eastwood;
a Westminster based new-Labour Special Adviser (SpAd);
an adviser (employed by the Tony Blair African Governance Initiative) to the Government of Rwanda (just before the UK and other donors pulled all their aid because of weak governance);
David Milliband’s campaign organiser;and
Director of David Miliband’s Movement for Change, a London-based Labour community activist ‘national’ initiative.
He left London to become Director of BT, and, in his words, “a Scot living in Scotland.”
Rod Mac
Hmm! A wee bit strong I think…Lets not go OTT.
Just look them in the eye, they will blink and look down. That’s the way to do it.
We all have a nation to build and a world to welcome us.
I’ve never been one for retrospective penalisation, it’s always struck me that it’s only the losers who ever seem to commit war crimes.
These people tell lies to save their jobs, families and way of life. It’s hardly a surprise but it’s not a capital offence.
I canna wait till the tv debates and that numpty gets so much new assholes teared inte him ye could use his as a collander !!!
Eddie
“Scottish Labour Handbook
Chapter OneWhen you can’t win by stating the truth then lie, lie and lie again. That is all.”
A wee bit dated now, but:-
link to dl.dropboxusercontent.com
OT, but there’s a story brewing about sectarian singing by armed forces members at Ibrox, during some half-time show. Or more exactly, the way the Scottish media is avoiding the story is interesting. Wouldn’t want to associate Our Brave Boys with all that hatred, eh?
JLT,
It would good if the press elsewhere did pick this up. If you can remember the paper where you read the article it would be useful to see it.
If bigger papers got to this it would be too late for press here to fudge the truth about their censoring info, or misrepresenting info.
On ‘censoring’, when I posted on the Herald, my posts went on very quickly, but since trying a few times to put up the corrected version of a poll a few weeks ago, all of which were not allowed on the thread, I’ve found posts can now take hours to be included. It might be they have reduced staff, or maybe they are being extra careful, in case something which contradicts their article goes through.
Anybody else finding it takes extremely long waiting times, compared to a few weeks ago?
What do you think Spitting Image would have done to the numpty leading the campaign against Scotland enjoying political accountability and self-determination?
What is it they say about those that seek political power, without the constraints of democratic mandate. CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCColonialists?
Perhaps Blair McDougall is a Fabian?
beachthistle
It was a pleasure meeting you on the hill. though I still have a nagging feeling we had met before. I should have mentioned that at the time.
Ye gods.
“Hold them to account” really?
The only way they should be held to account is with a Yes vote.
Craig Murray does the job better than most.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Chic – Thanks for that… Ah’m energising all weapons…
The man looks ill.
This is why your top polis have speech-writers. They don’t have to worry about the lies and what they said before, they just stick to the script and bingo its like teflon and they can sleep at nights.
Poor Blair doesn’t have a script-writer.
I’m definitely against stringing anyone up (unless it’s the non-lethal recreational kind most likely practised by many politicians in leather suits behind closed doors!)
But I am in favour of pointing at them and laughing when they’re sitting on the dole queue after September 2014.
Best not to put the No campaign on your CV there mate! 😉
I know Stu doesn’t like deleting posts, but I have to say when I read stuff about ropes and lamp posts I kind of wish he’d consider it. Even when it’s said in jest that sort of thing is never pretty, and I’m not at all clear that was entirely in jest.
Right ok I come out with that much bullsh*t that I slide about in it, hey but that’s ok as their are many brainless idiots out there, no voters or don’t knows and they are lapping it up, why, because they are so stupid to believe the BBC and the printed press and long may it last.
It is my job to keep shovelling, I am the shovel master, long live the Union.
Regards
Blair
Common mistake that folks are making on these comments is that everyone is up to speed with the fog of war that is politics in Scotland. I merely asked about the person in the photo. I have my own opinions but apart from his position in Bitter Together who is he? Where did he come from? What has he done for Scotland? Where did he work? What are his so-called credentials? And lastly – He has history – Really murky – and most questionable…
To paraphrase Jimmy Reid: ‘There will be no hooliganism. There will be no vandalism. There will be no bevvying, there will be no stringing up.
Jenny
“Perhaps some who haven’t already might like to sign this petition. “The Scottish Government: Approach the OSCE and request an election monitoring mission.”
Raising awareness and all thatlink to change.org”
Signed it already.
Shouldn’t have any trouble getting through the screening committee. After all prominent NO campaign politicians have recently accused the BBC of SNP bias so they will be just as keen to have an independent monitor as the YES Campaign won’t they? 😉
Zoooom oink!
Agreed on the lamp post things
I will just be happy to see then chewing wasps (metaphorical ones obviously).
O/T Derek Bateman must be officially doing something right, as Grahamski has started commenting on his blog, saying the serious blog is a “bizarre spoof!”.. 😀 😀
Remember nice guys finish last.
LOL Grahamski must be worried.
Blair’s article is the kind of thing the Pinochet Junta where publishing in Chile before they lost the referendum. Like them, he probably believes his own lies too.
I don’t normally resort to obscene language but…
I’m getting real tired of your shit, Mr. McDougall.
Heather McClean: Just to let Wing readers know that there will be a debate between Blair Jenkins and Blair McDougall on 30th October as part of the Five Million Questions Project at Dundee University.
Great catch, Heather! This MUST be recorded, if possible, and put on the ‘net.
@Andrew Morton: I am concerned at the number of commenters on this site who are flinging around the notion that people in the No campaign or the media ‘are ("Tractor" - Ed)s’ and should be ‘strung up’.
I don’t think Rev should delete the comments, for the simple reason that even deleting comments would be used as “proof” with the added bonus that Rev was “covering it up.” Let the comments stand, but debate or condemn them to show that offensive or contentious remarks will not be left unchallenged or undiscussed.
I’m of the opinion that they are ("Tractor" - Ed)s – just as we are ("Tractor" - Ed)s. The No campaign are ("Tractor" - Ed)s to the cause of a sovereign, independent Scotland. The Yes campaign are ("Tractor" - Ed)s to the cause of the United Kingdom. Not in a current legal sense, true, but in the common usage of “acting against the group to which they currently belong” I think it fits.
Zoooom oink!
Pigs in space? To some, and independent Scotland does appear to be a Forbidden Planet.
The Tempest is a play by William Shakespeare, believed to have been written in 1610–11, and thought by many critics to be the last play that Shakespeare wrote alone. It is set on a remote island, where Prospero, the rightful Duke of Milan, plots to restore his daughter Miranda to her rightful place using illusion and skillful manipulation. He conjures up a storm, the eponymous tempest, to lure his usurping brother Antonio and the complicit King Alonso of Naples to the island. There, his machinations bring about the revelation of Antonio’s lowly nature, the redemption of the King, and the marriage of Miranda to Alonso’s son, Ferdinand.
The Tempest did not attract a significant amount of attention before the closing of the theatres in 1642, and only attained popularity after the Restoration, and then only in adapted versions.
link to en.wikipedia.org
@DonDeefLugs
Excellent- not sure about the no bevvying part though!
HA! – I just found a Blair McDougall wikipedia page: link to en.wikipedia.org
was it one of the readers here..??? 😉
@DonDeefLugs
No bevvying? I wish you’d mentioned that when we were in the Barony last week… 😀
Ok, there will be bevvying 🙂
Blair McDougall – Fat Cheek
Fixed the title for you Rev.
Don’t normally spam other boards but since someone asked about Blair MacDougall… He’s actually quite difficult to research, his wiki page is blank and I did a fair bit of googling to find out what little I did. I even joined linkedin to no avail.
link to fazzledown.blogspot.co.uk
Only the first three paragraphs are pertinent.
McDougall, a Walter Mitty type character.
As for Labour at their conference last week, their health spokesman in England Andy Burnham, suggested a future Labour Government would impose the same NHS policies on Scotland that England now has, by privatisng hospitals and ending free care etc.
You would have thought Margaret Curran SLAB, and a Scot, would have stood up and defended Scotland and its NHS, no instead Curran said that Scotland as it is now receives far too much money.
Curran seemed to back the Tory position that in the event of a no vote, Scotland should be punished with a further slashing of our grant from London.
Im feel sick to my stomach at the amount of turncoats who want to keep Scotland, under the thumb of Westminster, by doing their master bidding Moore/Curran/Rennie Davidson/Lamont/McDougall/Sarwar, and many more, shame on them.
I am delighted to see that Blair McDoom is going to debate with Blair Jenkins. I couldn’t give a toss who books the hall. His allergy to us amuses though.
i thought your headline was
“Blair McDougall Fat Check”
He is morphing into “Jabba The Hutt”
@HandandShrimp says: His allergy to us amuses though.
Clearly Blair McDougall is not as thick-skinned as he looks.
Stairheid (Candidate for First Minister of Scotland) says …
“Blair McDougall is a lyin wee jobby. An since am leadin’ the Labour Party in Scoatland, ah should know whit am talkin’ aboot.”
Pa Broon, I imagine the reason Bliar McDougall’s wiki page is blank, might be because it is based on his personality and charisma!
The words “rope and lampost” as used by RodMac are metaphoric. And as long as we have homegrown individuals who knowingly deceive, lie, spread unfounded fear, and hamstring national budgets to the detriment of the nation, for their own personal ambition, I don’t have a problem with people using the word “treason”.
If we all have to be guarded and clipped in the language we use, we’ll all start to sound like Blair Jenkins.
Besides, I think that given enough rope and lamposts, Project Fear will do the job themselves. Metaphorically speaking of course.
Colin McCartney,
I thought the same. Did the Sinclair chap write this for BM?
Nice of Derek Bateman to prize open the can of worms for us to have a peek at. When it is fully opened it should be a good for us to really see what has been going on, not that many on this site would be that surprised.
Dee and Heraldnomore,
Your comments below re Derek Bateman virtually constitute accusations against him.
Regarding the Derek Bateman debate I had with a few of you on Friday 27th sept. I was suggesting that Mr Bateman should come clean with what he knows regarding the links in “Project Fear” between BBC Scotland and Scottish Labour.
As I said on Friday and I repeat again to you today, ”Mr Bateman, cleanse yourself of this burden that you must have on your shoulders and tell the people of Scotland the truth”.
What makes you think that you are fit to adjudicate over whether Mr Bateman is in need of “coming clean” on anything? Indeed the language used is reminiscent of that used in Johan Lamont’s weekly scripts against Alex Salmond. It certainly can’t be viewed in the context of friendly suggestion.
Even though it’s very difficult not to rant about the right-wing propaganda spouted by the likes of the Unionist apologists, accusing them of treason is going far too far. We are still living in the state they purport to love and cherish so they probably think they are doing that state a justice through their infantile attempts at thwarting democracy in Scotland. Democracy as most countries in Europe understand it has never existed in Scotland, so those of us wishing to rectify that deficit shouldn’t stoop to the level of the imbeciles in the MSM and BT. Watching their campaign slowly implode is one of the long-term benefits of YES campaign’s foresight. We just need to be patient.
I appreciate the feelings of some that seem to be heading for the vigilante darkside closet and I am sure that the remarks are more akin to ‘heat of the moment’ Take a moment, take a deep breath, count to ten, tell yourself ‘calm the fuck down’ then make yourself a nice cup of tea.
Yes there are some people with opposing views that are plainly irritating. But its their own views, no matter how stupid it may appear. There are those of course you would think cant be that stupid, so its natural to think they are being deliberate in what they do and say.
Anyway, post independence, we really have to get on with life, it WILL be interesting and if the country does vote YES, which I hope it does, we will be at the very cusp of a very historical place. The effect will be much bigger than anyone can ever imagine and will be all good (not sure what sage stated that dropping a pebble in a pond, it will create ever increasing circles).
The truth after a YES vote will come out and that is what worries many who are trying to convince us to vote NO. But we should probably follow the path of Nelson Mandela, who was instrumental in setting up the Truth and reconciliation commission. A brave move considering the many many years of oppression that had occurred in South Africa. Something to ponder.
After the 18 of Sep next year. We will all have to get on and live and work together. Remember the wounds that are still open in comunitys through the miners strike. Is this the Scotland we want. By it’s very nature most people will be in opposed camps.
We do have to be vigilant and expose the falshoods as they arise. We do not need for the YES side to degenerate into the politics of 1930’s germany as the no side have allready done.
Yes this site is un-moderated but with free speech comes the responsibility not to talk inflammatory pish.
I actually feel physically sick when I read BMcD’s arguments. I’m not sure if the lying that annoys me more than the fact he is speaking down at people and treating us as if we are stupid. Maybe its a combination of both.
In other news, Blair McDougal suggests 55% of Green Party members drive diesel cars, regularly burn plastic and support fracking. He also says 55% of Tories are nice and 55% of Labour politicians CAN tell their arse from their elbow! He does agree though that 55% of Lib dems are useless.
I think Blair rather nicely falls in the the category of “("Quizmaster" - Ed)”
A ("Quizmaster" - Ed) . In contemporary usage, ("Quizmaster" - Ed) is synonymous with ("Tractor" - Ed), and particularly applied to politicians who appear to favour the interests of other nations or cultures over their own.
By any definition Unionists are ("Tractor" - Ed)s to their country. As long as they pretend that Scotland is a country they are betraying it. Just a cold hard fact.
Pssst! I noticed on the next thread that Stu has used similarly unecessary pejorative, inflammatory language as RodMac, in describing UK company directors wanting to string Osborne from the nearest lampost. Tut tut!
Could someone go and tell him off for this?
Good luck.
The undecided and soft Nos will not be persuaded by talk of ("Tractor" - Ed)s and ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s. In fact they would likely go to the other side. It is counterproductive in my opinion to use inflammatory language about our opponents. I accept people feel very strongly about the issue. However, it is not in our interests for the debate to degenerate into bitterness and hatred. We have to inspire people as Nicola Sturgeon says.
These unionist liars can say what they want, they have media protection.
There is also a pathological condition that presents by telling porkies at the drop of a hat. Jackie Baillie is afflicted with it as is Blair McDougall alongside many others predominately of the BT variety. Any newspaper journalist worth his salt would have shredded both of them ages ago, but they seem to have a colluded impunity conferred on them by a higher authority. The same authority which has been losing this union, hand over fist for the past 70 years or more.
If your country is the UK, then fine, vote No. But I really can’t see how any “proud Scot” can put the UK above Scotland.
thank hic god hic for that hic
I had meant to copy this in
”
Ok, there will be bevvying “
Dan,
We need international observors to oversee the referendum and the press and media coverage of it. Extremely sad but true.
There is a petition requesting it which I just signed today, Change.com I believe.
@Muttley79: The undecided and soft Nos will not be persuaded by talk of ("Tractor" - Ed)s and ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s. In fact they would likely go to the other side. It is counterproductive in my opinion to use inflammatory language about our opponents. I accept people feel very strongly about the issue. However, it is not in our interests for the debate to degenerate into bitterness and hatred. We have to inspire people as Nicola Sturgeon says.
I agree and understand, but I think there’s a difference between needlessly insulting and using provocative language merely to rile up the other side, and using frank and uncompromising language when it is called for. In my case, I do not think calling someone a ("Tractor" - Ed) because their actions go against the interests of the country’s people is counterproductive, for the simple reason that this issue is too important to “play nice.”
By all means, I’m happy to debate with someone who genuinely believes the union is what’s best for Scots, and who believes a more equitable society can be achieved as part of the UK. I know some of them, and while I disagree, I at least respect their point of view. But I refuse to watch my language in regards to people who have no compunction about calling me or the people I love racist, xenophobic, parochial, sectarian, bigoted, and everything else under the sun – and especially when those people deliberately and concertedly lie to the very people they purport to be looking out for.
I am aware that many object to the severity of my language; but is there not cause for severity? I will be as harsh as truth, and as uncompromising as justice. On this subject, I do not wish to think, or to speak, or write, with moderation. No! No! Tell a man whose house is on fire to give a moderate alarm; tell him to moderately rescue his wife from the hands of the ravisher; tell the mother to gradually extricate her babe from the fire into which it has fallen; – but urge me not to use moderation in a cause like the present. I am in earnest – I will not equivocate – I will not excuse – I will not retreat a single inch – AND I WILL BE HEARD. The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal, and to hasten the resurrection of the dead.
No, it is not in our interest for the debate to degenerate into bitterness and hatred, but it already has. The No side has already accused the Yes campaign of everything it can think of. I am asking not to reply in kind, nor to “out-offend” them, but to know that whenever McDougall or Lamont or whoever says something despicable, they are held to account in the strongest terms necessary.
Brian Powell,
Apologies Brian, I have tried to hunt for it high and low. I thought it was the Guardian newspaper, but as much as it sounded similar, it wasn’t that. I can’t seem to come across it, but I read quite a few newspapers yesterday, as they all commented on the scenes from Ibrox; even ones from Ireland (even though the Irish papers were shocked at the images from Ibrox, they didn’t accuse. More like, hopefully, this sort of incident would not be repeated.)
Apologies Brian, I searched for a good 30 minutes while at work, and I’ve done the same while watching the footie. I’m damned if I can find it, and yet, I can literally see the text in front of me in my mind.
If I do come across it, then I’ll post it up. I think I also remember something being similarly said either on Newsnet Scotland or one of the other indy-sites.
Crap. I wish I had noted it down (growl).
@JLT @ Brian
Could it be one of these?
Roy Greenslade wrote an article in yesterdays Guardian about the media silence: http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/sep/29/rangers-military
and Ch4’s Alex Thomson wrote an article in his blog covering the same subject: link to blogs.channel4.com
JLT p.s. your browser history may show you the article 🙂
BTW, that “I Will Be Heard” paragraph was from William Lloyd Garrison, slavery abolitionist superhero.
Hi Don,
No, it wasn’t that one, though it was one that I did read. I’m sure it was a blog, or an opinion blog in one of the papers.
Don’t get me wrong, when you read the Guardian link, it is going on the same lines. Nah, it was a couple of sentences where the reporter commented that he was becoming aware of the media silence or bias towards the Yes camp.
Honestly, I raked for the piece for about an hour last night.
In the end, the one thing that did please me, was the fact that Channel 4 news and the Guardian both commented on the events at Ibrox. It really put the Scottish media in a very bad light. Job done in my book!