At A Loss
To be honest, folks, we’re not quite sure what to do with ourselves at the moment.
Everyone and his wee dug is writing election-aftermath columns and offering the SNP advice of varying intelligence and solemnity about how to recover from the shattering blow they’ve just been dealt by Scottish voters.
But it’s a pointless exercise. They may as well be yelling down a manhole.
Because we all know nothing is going to change in the SNP between now and 2026.
The party, in all likelihood, is simply sticking its fingers in its ears and desperately trying to convince itself that everything’s going to be fine somehow – they were only six points behind Labour last week, the Holyrood electoral system is a different beast to a Westminster one, and maybe in two years’ time everyone will be sick of Keir Starmer’s inevitably disappointing administration.
But that’s not how real-life politics works. Last week smashed the myth of the SNP’s invulnerability. Even in 2017, when they lost around the same number of votes as they did a week ago (half a million), they still won the election by a mile, taking 22 seats more than the next biggest party. But now that they’ve taken a proper kicking, their true weakness has been exposed, and that rarely works out well for the former bully.
Even if you assumed for the sake of argument, though, that they genuinely accepted that they’d lost the faith of the Scottish public – and more importantly a large chunk of their own former support – and wanted to change, what COULD they change?
Leader? They’ve already had three leaders in 18 months, a fourth would leave them looking like – well, like the Tories. John Swinney was elected uncontested because there was nobody else remotely credible who wanted the job, and what’s changed about that?
The entire purpose of Swinney, as we told you at the time, was to be a caretaker who could absorb TWO defeats and leave the way clear to give the “real” next leader a fresh start. In any event Stephen Flynn flukily kept his Westminster seat and is now effectively out of the running, and Kate Forbes doesn’t want to inherit this mess any more now than she did two months ago.
Policy? What policies could they change? Swinney has nailed his colours firmly to the “queer” mast and most of his MSPs are strident gender activists, so any new direction in “social justice” is out of the question. They have almost no powers over the economy or immigration, which are the issues most concerning voters.
And more to the point they’ve been making a total dog’s breakfast of everything they DO have responsibility for, which leads us to the next thing.
Personnel/competence? Everyone, including numerous SNP politicians, agrees that the party has dropped the ball domestically over the last few years. But how do you fix that when you can only rearrange the deckchairs you’ve already got? What’s the point in reshuffling a Cabinet that comprises only hapless dolts?
Shirley-Anne Somerville isn’t going to suddenly get any less useless if you put her in charge of housing than she was at being in charge of education, is she? You want Karen Adam or Joe Fitzpatrick running Justice? You can’t fix a burst pipe with a packet of Cheesy Wotsits, you need the right tools for the job, and while the SNP has plenty of tools, none of them are in working order.
(By all means have a go at Fantasy Cabinet by filling every ministerial post in the Scottish Government with current SNP MSPs in the comments below. What portfolio would YOU entrust Jamie Hepburn or Kaukab Stewart with? We’re all ears.)
If last week’s election wasn’t about independence – and it wasn’t – and it wasn’t about the SNP’s record at Wesminster (because they don’t have one), and it wasn’t about getting rid of the Tories (there hardly WERE any Tories in Scotland and only one of them lost his seat), then it was a judgement on the party’s record at Holyrood, and why would the electorate’s verdict on that be any more forgiving in two years’ time when it actually matters?
(And of course, we ALL know that despite their being comprehensively rejected by voters in the most emphatic and resounding way imaginable, the party will already be bending over backwards to ignore that democratic verdict and get the likes of Nicolson, Smith, Thewliss, McDonald and Black back in at Holyrood in 2026 via the list.)
Independence strategy? The SNP doesn’t have an independence strategy. And don’t take our word for it, that’s from someone who was a loyal SNP MP just last month.
It’s been demanding a second referendum from the UK government since 2016, the UK government’s been telling it to sod off, the SNP’s gone “Um, okay”, and that’s STILL its official plan. It’s had EIGHT YEARS to come up with something better, and it half-heartedly adopted the only viable alternative proposal for about five minutes in 2023 and then ditched it in a panic. Going back to it now would look absolutely farcical.
“Unity”? The SNP sure as heck isn’t going to make any overtures to other indy parties or the “grassroots Yes movement”, people that it’s spent the last decade sidelining, attacking and bitterly blaming for all its woes.
Partly because it sees those people as usurpers of its God-given birthright to be the sole embodiment of independence and hates them with a burning passion – very much in the same way that Scottish Labour used to regard the SNP – but also because the grassroots Yes movement doesn’t really even exist any more in any tangible sense.
(If you doubt that, try getting it to go on a march.)
So in short: the SNP couldn’t meaningfully change anything if it wanted to, and it doesn’t want to anyway. All it really plans to do for the next two years is cling onto whatever it can, scrabble around at the bottom of the bag for some more rotten carrots to offer its supporters, and hope things don’t get too much worse.
But they will, of course – Operation Branchform continues to loom heavily on the horizon, the party’s accounts are due next month (and the election defeat is going to make the finances much much worse), and a whole bunch of policy chickens are about to come home to roost. The activist base has been decimated, and more will leave as a result of the election because nobody wants to be the last off a sinking ship.
Short version: the SNP is nowhere near rock bottom yet.
As for what the rest of us are going to talk about between now and 2026, we’re open to suggestions, readers.
The weather? That’s about as predictable just now.
I think it is important to keep telling Scots who the SNP really are. Do not leave a shadow for them to hide in. Lift every rock they try to slither under. Keep highlighting their lies and betrayal.
We need a set of parties working together for Independence through some set of agreements on who stands where in 2026.
It’s time to forget about the snp for all the reasons you give above.
They are finished as a party.
There is no way back from what Sturgeon did. They are on the road to ruin.
i don’t think they still really believe the election result was not about the Tories in Scotland. While the rest of the UK it was mostly this up here it was mostly about getting rid of the SNP and form much the same reasons about lack of competence.
The only way support for independence may grow again is if the SNP or another independence party gets back into power and proves themselves competence. At the moment the clown show that is the SNP and the SP does not give any confidence to the folk of scotland that they could be trusted to run a jumble sale never mind a country.
That is now a long term project and indy supporters are looking at the bleak landscape of square 1 and starting again from where the cause was many years ago. personally I can’t see it happening in my lifetime unless something really massive changes that is unforeseen at the moment.
It’s all pretty depressing, yet it would be good to have your views at times like when Operation Branchform hits the fan, and when AS court case finally takes place. Your views are always a good antidote to the msm nonsense. But then it isnt fair to expect you to twiddle your thumbs, bored out your skull waiting for these events which will hardly take up a fraction of the next long two years. Rest assured though, your wit and insight are valued and I think most of us wont want to see the end – maybe a weekly/monthly roundup or similar?
Surprised to hear the “next 5 years” mantra from you, Rev.
We repealed the Fixed Term Parliament Act in 2022. Any major controversy can bring down a government, no matter how big their majority in Westminster. I hope nobody thinks Rishi produced the rabbit of “conscription” from the void? The Uniparty agrees on policies behind the scenes. But Starmergeddon’s temporary supporters don’t know that,and they won’t be happy.
We could discuss all these adverts on TV for detergents advertising cold-wash temperatures that are hotter than the ACTUAL Scottish summer!!
Rev, you are the nearest thing that the cause has to a mainstream media presence.
Please use your influence to platform all the groups that are working in their way to further the cause.
A combined movement is needed, as you say, and so if people see how many groups are active then it will give support to those groups and a basis for a Convention, perhaps.
You will know someone in all those groups and can make a huge difference. Indy 1st, SSRG, Mike Fenwick, Salvo/Liberation, ISP to name a few.
It’s an unpaid job, Stu, but appreciated nevertheless, by all Wingers, that between now and 2026, you keep pursuing the dying, wilfully blind nuSNP, relentlessly.
A ‘Game of Thrones’ analogy:
nuSNP: cruel and inept ‘Melisandre’.
Wings: ‘Davos Seaworth’, holding fast in a world gone mad, fiercely protecting the innocent child, Princess Shireen.
Independence: ‘Princess Shireen’, burnt at the stake by Melisandre.
The North Remembers.
I rely on you for the truth.
Sturgeon spent the past 9 years making sure there was no-one smarter than her in a position of influence. That was her one success. Especially in the increase of young careerists with no political principles and no life experience going straight from university into politics. That’s the problem across the UK, because the professional politician (ie, brown-nosing party hack) has infested the entire political system and is eating it from the inside.
At least they’ll be back destroying Labour for the next wee while.
You would be far better off reforming your party than scrapping it and claiming Super-SNP24 is something brand-new and compelling. *
I can’t see anyone tackling the party executive. Is there nobody inside the head office wih any appetite for that?
If there isn’t, how did you all let it get into that state. You couldn’t all have been in thrall to Stalin’s wee sister (hat-tip to somebody).
I think they holed Alba below the water-line if that’s all the votes they could mustere with competent candidates.
* It would be easier to take over Scottish Labour and turn it into an Indie party than to launder the current SNP.
Forbes has no choice now her head is on the block next. Wonder how fatty will wriggle his fat fly miles arse out of responsibility.
But all I’ve heard in the WoS comments is how Indy has zillions of supporters.
Supporters who don’t, however, seem to:
1) Vote that way in an election;
2) Tell the pollsters about it when asked about their beliefs;
3) Form a scandal-free, viable party that can challenge the inept, corrupt SNP;
4) Find candidates who will run on a “true Indy” platform; and
5) Be able to organize a “true Indy” political party that can outpoll the Monster Raving Loony Party.
Something doesn’t connect here. Maybe the “zillions of supporters” premise is, to say the least … inaccurate?
Salvo/Liberation is a way forward, not politicians at this stage, if you take the time to understand its purpose. It sets out to prove to the UN that Scotland is a colony. It is studying in minute detail the Treaty and events since to make a rock solid case for legal action. Also it’s about educating the public about popular sovereignty.
It has created formally a liberation movement, the first committee elections have just concluded after more than two years being run by a self appointed panel,
The U.K. is a signatory to the UN charter on removing colonisation. If you question this please read Doun Hauden by Alfred Baird. Published in 2020.
Steps are underway to get international support.
Did scottish Labour change?
Campbell Clansmen 3.45
Respectfully you do not have a clue and I think are deliberate being obtuse. The independence support base binned the SNP because it has achieved zilch on independence and with its policies in recent years are a disgrace.
We will never ever get independence via a political party that is using Westminster centric thinking and takes allegiance to a foreign monarch. That is why Salvo/Liberation is gaining support.
How about ideas for what an independent Scotland would look like?
What people care about is not immigration, for example, but, literally, life and death issues. That embraces health, social care, welfare, the economy, education, happiness and more.
Explore the kind of politics that we want in each of those areas and more in an independent Scotland.
I would start by saying an end to neoliberalism. Scotland should be a social democratic country.
Take issues one at a time. See if we can attract experts in different fields to talk to us.Talk to each other. Do research.
Maybe the SNP should allow any MSP to have whatever ministry they feel they identify with.
If several of them “feel” they identify as ministers of justice or rainbow beach balls, then they can all be made joint ministers.
Maybe the entire parliament can be made joint ministers for all portfolios?
Well Rev Stu, I hope you can find a way to get your head around what SALVO and Liberation are doing.
I know it’s pointless if your heart’s not in it, but on the other hand, I can see a time coming, hopefully soon, when the whole of Scotland is going to need a Wee Blue Book on the Constitutional matters affecting Scotland, namely the Claim of Right being trashed and Scotland’s Popular Sovereignty being cynically usurped. Scotland has tremendous strength, but our weakness is too many know nothing about it.
Very soon, we will need that knowledge to be shared amongst everyone in Scotland as a concise and authoritative summary of the issues affecting Scotland’s Independence.
Scotland United seems a forlorn aspiration given the bampots in the SNP, but they can only wreck it where the SNP has presence, and outwith the UK’s faux constitution complete with Vichy Holyrood, the SNP actually has no presence. Even the office of First Minister is meaningless.
Imagine if we did Scotland United ourselves, but assembled ourselves under the Constitutional Banner, not the compromised political one.
Start small; a meeting between your good self, a particular Mr Salmond, and the indefatigable Sara Salyers. Shut yourselves in a room, and don’t come out until we’ve got SALVO’s Constitutional imperative firmly married to Salmond’s strategic genius, and yourself riding shotgun to keep the wagon on course, and all the disruptive douche bags and perverts thrown under the wheels, and of course, a Wee Blue Book taking the word to the people.
I tell you Rev Stu… This would blossom. I feel it in my bones.
I’d even extend an invite to Joanna Cherry. Make it a table for 4.
I know Joanna is hurtin’ and angry, but back on form with Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution in her boxing gloves, and I believe Joanna could easily do for Scotland what Dr. Ralph Wilde did for the Arab League and Palestinian cause at the UN / ICJ.
Can’t you just see Joanna doing this for Scotland’s justice? Forget petty vengeance. Get Independence over the line and nobody will even remember Sturgeon’s name.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRn4qYAORAE
Pick up that phone Rev Stu. I know you’ve got Alex Salmond’s number. Make the calls.
Do a history of how the SNP was systematically and ruthlessly taken over and then ruled as a dictatorship. It changed from a reasonably democratic party to a very autocratic one. Why 50,000 may still be members can maybe, or at least partly, be explained by their unawareness of just how they were completely neutered. As with any organisation under similar circumstances, the good ones left and the chancers piled in. Corruption wasn’t far behind.
Maybe this hangs off a slightly different question for the future – Do you want Scotland to be a democratic independent nation?
There needs to be a way out of the disaster that the UK is running full speed towards. The SNP bubble has only been punctured. It needs to be burst before any real change, with or without them, is possible.
CALL TO ARMS!
Jim Sillars and Douglas Chapman have said it all over the last day or two.
The “NewSNP” needs to be reduced to rubble (including Sturgeon et al) and a decent party with integrity built in its please.
However, it will take 10 to 20 years!
wally jumblatt
10 July, 2024 at 3:45 pm
“….how did you all let it get into that state. You couldn’t all have been in thrall to Stalin’s wee sister (hat-tip to somebody)”
======
That somebody is Jim Sillars
The problem is, independence is an absolute necessity but is also somewhat of a luxury belief. When the population is deliberately and cynically stressed (no money, no heating, no food, constant threats of war and stoking fear of refugees & migrants) hope isn’t easy to sell. My advice fwiw is to focus on something we all can get behind – like health or roads. Bread & butter stuff which these seat warming numpties have ignored. Only then can we aspire to better because right now, the snp may not be at rock bottom but the people of our country aren’t very far from it.
Andy Anderson
10 July, 2024 at 3:56 pm
“Campbell Clansmen … Salvo/Liberation is gaining support.”
The Reality is that Salvo/Liberation is a tiny bunch of Moonhowlers. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, I’m merely saying that is a fact.
The ISP could only field 2 candidates in the last election, and neither got even 1% of the vote.
The recently elected “Liberation Committee” refuses to say how many people actually voted in their “Steering Committee” election, undoubtedly to disguise how few people (I’d estimate 50) actually voted.
It should be simple for a viable movement to sweep the corrupt, incompetent SNP into the “dustbin of history.” The fact that Alba and ISP are still nowhere, says it all about their viability.
Dear Mr Campbell
It seems to me your specific skills and mindset are needed more than ever in the run up to the 2026 election. Since the MSM do not know, or do not report accurately, what happens (often in plain sight, as you have shown) we need you more than ever to dig out the unpalatable and then to write about your findings, in your excellent journalistic style.
I certainly intend to keep up my monthly payment and if needed, increase it.
Just let it rot away. Until we have a change of personnel in the SNP nothing positive can happen. Its hardwired to gender and pension acquirement. A new movement has to happen. Appealing to the UN or waving saltire won’t work. We need a charismatic and sane individual to start this party. Sadly Alex is too old.
There is no going forward for Scotland until these bastards are brought to book.
Flynn’s grovelling performance in WM tells us all we need to know..
Talk about Raiden.
The graph above appears to contradict a couple of the posts.
For anyone interested, this is today’s post (edited) about the Declaration of a Sovereign Scot initiative, it reads:
A question that takes no more than 20 seconds to answer! Who in the WORLD knows YOU want to end the union and regain Scotland’s independence? This is an (edited) extract from the International Court of Justice (ICJ):
‘The lack of any evidence as to the view of the people on whose behalf the Application has been filed, is one of the principal reasons leading to the inability of the Court to decide the dispute.’
It takes literally no more than 20 seconds to sign the Declaration of a Sovereign Scot. Every signed Declaration of a Sovereign Scot has been, and will be, sent to the world via the United Nations. The WORLD, the ICJ need hard documentary evidence of what you want!
Which is why when I begin shortly to tour Scotland – will YOU spare just 20 seconds of your time to tell the WORLD – YOU want to end the union and regain Scotland’s independence?
The party, in all likelihood, is simply sticking its fingers in its ears and desperately trying to convince itself that everything’s going to be fine somehow – they were only six points behind Labour last week, the Holyrood electoral system is a different beast to a Westminster one, and maybe in two years’ time everyone will be sick of Keir Starmer’s inevitably disappointing administration.
Like the Corbynites in 2019 it seems the SNP are destined to ignore the huge reasons they lost & just double down. Virtually no self-reflection is being done & the idea the public just are bigots or don’t understand SNP policies is nonsense. They’ll stumble along to 2026, get another tanking and then, possibly, some sense might prevail but I doubt it. It’s going to take people in the party willing to to speak sense and not be shouted down by the people who’ve been 100% responsible for last week’s battering.
There’s also a possibility that actually, Labour might improve things like the cost of living which is overwhelmingly most people’s main concern. If they do that then it makes the SNP’s case even more difficult in 2026, especially as the SNP policies of the last five years have seen a managed decline in Scotland’s services and economy.
But hey, the Greens got those cycle lanes built.
The activist base has been decimated, and more will leave as a result of the election because nobody wants to be the last off a sinking ship.
Normally when I go to vote there’d be an SNP activist at the station & prior to that I’d have them at my door at least once with plenty of leaflets. This year I did get leaflets through my door but no activists at my home or at the polling station. Considering this was Alison Thewliss’s seat & it was predicted to be close I’d have thought they’d be out in force. This is also an area with a lot of Glasgow Uni students so the Greens were out canvassing around the uni & Byres Road and all over the West End but nothing from the SNP.
Now that’s because the membership base has been wiped out & barring a few older diehards, the activist base now are people in their 20s or early 30s who often have no idea how to speak to people & certainly can’t convince people to vote SNP.
So yes, I think the SNP need to be wiped out in 2026. Independence as a political goal is over for now & the next decade at least. The SNP and Greens have assured that. The cause remains but we’re in a state where Alba aren’t going anywhere, Labour will be dominant til the end of the decade at least & the SNP offer nothing to voters beyond their core, and as Stu has pointed out, had the Greens stood aside in some seats there’d be a lot more SNP MPs this week.
But nobody within the SNP is able or willing to say what needs to be said or are they able to flush the party out before the 2026 defeat at Holyrood.
Call me crazy, but it would be great if we could actually, without the honking car alarms of various irrelevant wedge and gender issues, all have a productive discussion about why we, as a ‘country’, actually need independence in the first fucking place.
Now that, as far as the powers that be are concerned, the threat of Scottish Independence has subsided, that might actually be possible.
The ’cause’ needs to be cleaned, in the public mind, of all the static and horseshit that was deliberately attached to it in order to weaken and confuse the very real, very reasonable and very valid reasons that we need it.
This forum, and Stuart, are a hugely powerful platform for this.
Mebbe we should sanitize some of the BTL shenanigans (and shenanigers) tho.
Sorry for multiple posts, but this is important. Maybe we stop talking about the SNP. They’re done. They’re nothing now, just a few irrelevant and incompetent fuckwits with nothing to add or say. Grinding over the wrongs they did and the crimes they committed is a waste of valuable time.
Outside the bubble of indy supporters nobody has a clue what SALVO or Liberation actually is, I know I don’t.
Claiming a movement has massive popular support when nobody has heard of it is nonsense.
And people do have opinions on immigration, particularly in the areas that are affected by it. Its certainly one of the reasons I would not vote SNP in recent years (there are many other reasons 🙂 ) as the untrammelled immigration policy was absolutely crazy.
@Andy Anderson 3.49 & 3.56 pm
The problem with Salvo & Liberation Scotland is nobody is being honest about their level of support, the number of people who voted their Committee in, or the bona fides of whether their approach has any appreciable support from neutral (hell, even from Scottish) experts in constitutional law, international law, academia, the law, international organisations, or local/national politics.
Lawson and Salyers both have egos a mile wide and graphene thin. You ask Rev Stu to get involved with them, but Lawson deleted critical comments from Stu and others including me from his blog because he can’t handle disagreement. What kind of mass movement trying to promote a United Front does that? Salyers blocks those who disagree with her or ask awkward questions or who don’t accept the basis of her arguments.
Organisations like Salvo and Liberation Scotland might serve some purpose long term as ginger groups to help get people interested and involved, and even for producing research papers and encouraging grass roots involvement and activism, but the idea that they’re going to be the engine of the independence movement is for the birds.
They have negligible support and no major political figures behind them or fronting them. Admittedly some see as an advantage, but it’s not a widely held opinion by any means whatever some regulars in here fondly believe!
Putting the independence movement’s eggs in one Salvo / Liberation Scotland shaped basket and hoping that they will succeed in convincing the international community that Scotland is a colony, and that there is a legal rather than parliamentary or plebiscitary vote route is a high risk strategy, with very little visible support. It also risks taking considerably longer than just concentrating on winning a vote.
Get behind Salvo, Liberation & other pressure groups.
The independence movement hasn’t gone away.
We’re just not in the mood right now for constant talking & no action. It’ll come back again when there’s a clear plan.
*we’re just not in the mood for marches.
We need to raise theSNP to the ground and we need your help to do it. Sunlight is the best disinfectant etc and you are forensic in your investigations and journalism. I know you may not agree but maybe we all need to look at salvo and liberation initiative s a bit more closely.
Breeks @4.05pm.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head!
Brilliant idea, I would support it 100%!
Some good ol’ fashioned Labour bashing over the next couple of years would be quite welcome amongst readers, and I don’t think anyone would disagree.
We’ve given all our hopes to our politicians.
First it was to Labour. ‘They’re Scots’ we said…they’ll fight for Scotland.
They didn’t. They happily donned ermine robes and meekly accepted each insult and rebuttal WM gave them whenever they asked for stuff for Scotland (Scot Executive asked a Labour WM 4 times for a new FRB – and they said ‘No’ 4 times).
Then we gave all our hopes to the SNP. ‘They’re Scots for Scotland’, we said…they’ll get us out of this Union.
They didn’t. Salmond indeed did what he said he would, but after the indyref…Sturgeon started lying about her wish for indy and focussed on men in skirts/women’s prisons etc, camper vans and voguey photo shoots.
Politicians tell US what we voted for – not the other way around. England’s MSM tell US why we voted the way we did – making sure the need for independence is kept out of the convo. Politicians deny us democracy so that they can stuff their bank accounts with cash. Politicians move on when voted out with a nice wee £19K goodbye hand shake and don’t give a toss about the country they’ve wrecked in tandem with WM. Slimey, selfish, shameless bastards.
Now – we’re supposed to wait the 10-20yrs for ISP or Alba to make a mark and hope to God none of them get bribed or threatened or turned like the SNP leadership did.
Really? That’s it for us?
What’s stopping our bloggers and commentators from supporting civil disruption? Civil disobedience. Strikes, sit ins, road blocks, boycotts. What is it that stops them?
That we’d ruin society? *looks around* Society is pretty much going down the shitter now, and does anyone think the new Labour administration is gonna make ANYTHING better?
No, me neither.
The Scots getting shirty is the LAST thing any London Government needs, and yes as the Rev says – we’re apathetic as hell. We could win the Olympic Games in shoulder Shrugging because that’s all we do in the face of insult and assault.
Salvo has a Liberation arm – which is the ‘actiony’ part of the agency. If a group of likeminded and experienced independinista’s much like Sara Salyers, Alf Baird, Stu Campbell, Salmond, Ash regan and Jo Cherry…planned to start campaigns where Scotland could start pissing off WM – would that not at least be something?
For instance – Scots law. It’s not English law – which we all have been living under. Under Scots law Scots CAN protest against their government/monarchy because we are sovereign. We get arrested we could choose to be charged under Scots law – not UK law, because the ToU and AoU says Scotland STILL has its own laws. Over the decades, we’ve been blindly herded into little English policies and laws and…we just accept them. If we ARE in a Union then we can use the agreement to protect Scotland. The SNP should’ve done that. Sturgeon *could have closed our border with England during Covid – but noooo. Didn’t want to upset WM. Labour run Wales didn’t care tho, did they? They closed theirs.
Freeports, for Christ’s sake! WE OWN our ports. The ToU and AoU wasn’t a territorial union. Scots own our own ports. That the SNP govt colluded with WM to sell our ports to big business should be the FIRST reason to protest. How dare they do that! Thousands of acres of prime estate under the eye of big business with their own laws and their own planning regs.
If we had a national advertising campaign informing Scots of what Scotland CAN do – through Salvo, then it might give Scots confidence to start saying ‘No’.
Are we really too meek and weak to ditch the political route and grasp the thistle? Are we really too worried about what folk will think of us?
I bet right now, there are countries looking at Scotland and all the shit that we’re accepting and wondering what the hell is wrong with us.
You think civil disobedience is the last thing we should be doing? Then Scotland and Scots deserve all we get.
Another suggestion – if immigration is becoming more important amongst Scottish voters, and will assumedly increase as a concern amongst the electorate in the years coming, and attempt to impartially explain and understand the phenomenon of attitudes towards immigration amongst Scots (including indy supporters) and how it will relate to Scottish politics in the coming years.
Stu, you and on the whole the wingers have done more for the independence cause than the majority of the fat cat, money squirreling, lying bastards have ever achieved . I remember how good it felt in the summer of 2014 on the run up to the referendum. I can only thank you for all your work and keeping the spotlight on the decivers.
More comments from the Moonhowlers. This time, from one “Mike Fenwick” of “Yours for Secrecy,” who wants to have people sign his “Declaration of a Sovereign Scot” to prove to “the World” that Scots desire Indy.
Last time I looked, about 11,000 Scots had (allegedly) signed this. It was at “almost 500 signatures” in 2022.
11,000, out of a Scottish population of 5.5 million. Not even close to 1%, let alone a majority. I suspect “the World” sees this paltry result (assuming they even bother looking at it) and see that it proves the opposite of what Fenwick is trying to prove.
Fenwick has been hawking his “Declaration” for 3 years now. To, obviously, little effect.
“Surprised to hear the “next 5 years” mantra from you, Rev”
I didn’t say anything about five years. I said two.
@ Breeks at 4.05 “Imagine if we did Scotland United ourselves, under the Constitutional banner not the corrupted political one. … Start small, a meeting of your good self with Alex Salmond and Sara Salyers.”
That’s similar to what I was thinking earlier – we must have a joint effort that will get enough people together so that significant progress can be made outside the political system. There is no hope that Holyrood will do anything sensible before 2026, and probably not afterwards either.
There are many very capable people working to restore Scotland’s status – they need to be brought together into a body that is recognised as representative. Canon Kenyon Wright managed it in the 1980’s so it must be possible to do it now. The Rev could pick up where Canon Wright left off.
The only thing that potentially could scupper everything prior to 2026 for the SNP is more bad news from Branchform, if more members of government are implicated it has potential to be a game changer that the SNP cannot come back from. This and any trial of Peter Murrel is likely to have the SNP in the headlines for all the wrong reasons.
if there are to be banned words on this forum, I propose we ban
MOONHOWLER
and pre moderation for any twat who uses it
caveman clingfilm – fuck off you moronic yoon cunt
you have, perhaps for the kings shilling, slimed your trail across the BTL for a while now and without any positive contribution
the captain is a numbers guy, so let him DO ONE
Breeks I agree with most of what you wrote, but we need to go further than that,
We have to face the music and recognise that the Scottish parliament is a construct of the parliament down South under their statues and legislation,
It is not a Scottish parliament at all and has no authority to be passing “Scots Laws” under that falsehood,
The other thing that passed through my mind is perhaps Stu is not allowed to write or encourage a Scottish Contitution anything but destroying the Snp with the help of the puppet enablers in Holywood after the time when his family were threatened and false court cases from a labourite lady, not forgetting that Salmond came under attack as well, as did Joanna Cherry,
Realistically Scottish independence survives out- with the bounds of politics parties or Media in the context that Scotlands independence has lasted through the centuries via the Sovereign people in Scotland and maintained at a grassroots level nowadays of 50% plus.
Even Alba are vouching to follow the rules and election system of the Colonisers.
But the Scots and I mean the Scots, were never invited to join in the treaty of Union in 1706/ 1707, that is what is printed on the Westminster parliament site for the past number of years for the whole world to witness and read,
Scots remain Sovereign outside the treaty of union according to Westminster parliament,
And that is yours, mine and every Scots starting point is because Englands Westminster parliament say the Scots are Sovereign outside the treaty of union so that is so, and the Scots say they have always remained Sovereign also,
There is a agreement here between Englands official stance and the people of Scotland that we are Sovereign as a nation of Scots,
That is why every one wanting to gain Scottish independence and can use Westminster parliaments statement to the World must copy that statement and keep it safe,
Then every Scot has the Sovereign right to hold an assembly or to elect a entirely new parliament in Scotland.
Whilst Englands parliament agrees with Scots that it did not capture the “Scots” into the treaty of Union we all have the rightto legality Choose our Monarch if we want one, to choose our own justice system and Courts, the right to a assembly of Scots, and the right to self determination, since we were not invited into the treaty of union.
It is all about focus on legalities, and the nation of Scots realising they were never entered into the treaty of union when the old Scottish parliament was,
But that parliament was also dissolved out of the treaty of union way back in 1707, and the Scots are not in a treaty of union with England, with Great Britain, with Great Britain and Northern Ireland, nor are the Scots in a treaty with the UK parliament,
I dunno what you should do now – Tik-Tok influencer? OnlyFans? YouTube Speedrunner of obscure video games?
Or turn attention to the new boss maybe? If the SNP can be dissected so viscerally, then the Labour Party in Scotland certainly can be.
Maybe the direction is back to the future, when Wings was eloquent in espousing the benefits of Independence and weakness of the Union – a source of education basically.
Of course you have that T-shirt, is it even worth sticking it in the wash and wearing it again? Well only you know – if you decide on a quiet retirement in Bath Mansions to work on your memoirs, you’ve earned it.
Some people just can’t thrive on the peace with comfy slippers though. I suspect you’ll be the perennial, political Columbo – almost out the door, only to turn and say:
‘Oh – just one more thing…’
Overly pessimistic Stu.
Leader : The Great Leader is a British myth on a par with Arthur and Excalibur. The SNP should go back to its previous collegiate leaderships. The glory days were Salmond and Sturgeon together and all the previous “leaders” Wilson, Wolf, Donaldson et al were all really figureheads for a working National Executive. Nowadays we probably need a leader who is focussed porely on indy and who spends their time going round the branches geeing them up, with 4 vice-leaders for Westminster/British affairs, Holyrood, Other Scots and Aliens
Policy : Housing, something concrete (pun intended) and within the competence of Holyrood. None of this waffly unmeasurable stuff like education, gender or the NHS
Personnel : Come to think of it on this you may be right 🙂 Their selection system is a mess; all those Labour MPs who are councillors and who will be creating bye elections and HQ are still sending out thank you letters instead of calls for prospective council candidates to come for screening. Competence 2/10
Independence strategy : How did the Indians, Ghanaians and Jamaicans do it? 80-90% popular support for independence. Yes its a lot of work but at least we are half way there.
Unity : The SNP has flourished as a broad church. Its only since it became intolerant that its fortunes have collapsed. If they expand the leadership as above they will broaden their outlook.
Conclusion : Stop apeing the British political parties. If it requires putting hands in pockets to provide for a full time leader for the indy movement then do it. Stop relying on British freebies distracting our “leader” from her job by making her wear two hats as FM or an M(S)P. No man can serve two masters
Am I the only one who thinks Sturgeon is a British agent?
I’ve thought this since November 2014.
Breeks at 405pm,
Some very good ideas – and Sara later.
Salvo do have the right idea, in essence Scotland has the right to end the union when it so pleases. The union treaty has been broken more times than can be remembered – by ENGLAND.
At present, the SNP are still suggesting asking England’s permission, and everybody KNOWS that just will not happen. Scotland is England’s cherished possession, rich in oil, gas, renewable energy, land and ocean boundaries. So, asking England for permission is just dumb.
Scotlands democratic rights as enshrined in the claim of right – which IS, incidentally recognized by Westminster, is very clear in terms of Scotland’s freedom. It just needs some people to help make it happen. Any clown the world over can see that how Scotland is treated by Westminster and England is a democratic outrage. Were the circumstances reversed, you can be sure the people of England would not tolerate it for more than one second – and certainly NOT for over three hundred years.
The funny thing about the treaty of union and the claim of right, is that so many in Scotland do not truly understand them. They sneer at the idea of using such ‘old’ documents to assert our independence. Yet those very same people happily indulge the utter sh*te from England, perpetrated by an archaic parliamentary system based upon ‘old’ historical documents. If we assert the treaty of union and claim of right are irrelevant by virtue of being ‘old’, then we must equally reject the very basis of how the supposed United kingdom and Westminster currently operate. Why is the English Magna carta taken seriously as a foundation for government, yet much more recent documents from Scotland are discarded and regarded as irrelevant. If the treaty of union is irrelevant, then why are we still being run by England? ONLY that document enables English rule over Scotland. Without the treaty. their is no UK.
Over three hundred years of English propaganda has achieved these misconceptions and misunderstandings. It is sad so many Scots ‘suck it up’.
We now know England is NEVER again going to let the devolved Scots parliament have the power to hold a referendum on independence, since they know YES would win next time. So, in many ways we need bodies outside the confines of devolution to get the process going. Their is a role for Holyrood however, they definitely DO have the powers to help such a move, in terms of funding via various indirect means.
It is a disgrace that England has been allowed to trash Scotland for over three hundred years. Stealing our wealth and assets, over and over and over again. Independence is not just needed, it is very, very urgent.
And, to yet again agree with Breeks, I do think, if willing, Rev Stu could play a very important part.
I think Breeks and others are right, we do need figureheads outside the Scots parliament to start ‘banging the drum’ so to speak.
We need independence. Scotland could flourish without England’s baggage and thieving nature. You could say the future might be bright, certainly tonight let us hope the future is orange.
Perhaps you could do a deep dive on the ERCC’s finances & see if MW managed to lose 116K or whether “he” got off with his creative accountancy & gained 52K probably illegally (since I have no proof) I would have done it myself but the “Scottish Government” has banned me from accessing their website!
Breeks @4.05pm.
Things are already under way, but of course more of the RIGHT people can do no harm to the cause.
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2024/07/09/the-liberation-committee-election-results/
As for what the rest of us are going to talk about between now and 2026, we’re open to suggestions, readers.
There is loads of stuff to talk about. Whatever you write about is interesting Stu even your ice lolly reviews.
Posters on Wings are never short of things to talk about. On the last thread the topic was kilts and whether Gaelic is Scottish or not. 😕
One thing I think might be interesting to talk about is the banned words list.
There was a nice women posting here the other day who said she was put off posting because she kept being put into moderation and she had no idea why. She decided to just return being a lurker. That’s a shame.
Regular posters have a good idea which words are banned ie dispu*ting, compe*ting, teta*nus but new posters wouldn’t ever think these words would be offensive.
The banned words list doesn’t really serve any purpose because regular posters catch on know to edit accordingly.
In the event of ‘moonhowler’ being banned it would be posted as moo*nhowler.
As a follow up to the the discussion about kilts I would like a discussion about the history of highland dancing.
Are these dances Scotland’s answer to the Haka. Apparently the Highland Fling was originally a war dance.
Any views on our rugby team dancing the highland fling/sword dance before a match?
According to tradition, the old kings and clan chiefs used the Highland Games as a means to select their best men at arms, and the discipline required to perform the Highland dances allowed men to demonstrate their strength, stamina and agility.
Fingers crossed this post will not go into moderation!
Dubh @ 5.40
Big AYE to alla that – spot-on .
re Civil Disobedience – at times it seems like the only thing that would rouse people out of their comfort zones/apathy enough to get them on the streets would be if all football was banned .
The things is …. there’s been precisely zero consideration given to C.D as a tactic by any of the Political Parties – or in the pro-Independence sites .
The opposite has been the case ; for the Legacy faction it’s been all about ” good Parliamentarians ” n ” working constructively ” ( lol , aye , being told what’s going to happen n whining impotently ) n the dismissive possibility-crusher ….” that won’t work ” .
Well , how do we know it ” won’t work ” ? No one has tried it yet . Nothing else seems to be working .
Also , what Breeks said . People are too quick to rubbish Salvo/Liberation without even knowing what it is their trying to achieve …FOR THE INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENT . FFS they’re not the enemy . Listen to what they’re saying – and what they’re not saying .
Let’s see if the work being done can be leveraged to our advantage . What is there to lose by – at least – exploring the possibilities ?
“As for what the rest of us are going to talk about between now and 2026, we’re open to suggestions, readers.”
How about creating a new party for the 2026 election with just two items in its manifesto:
1. Declaration of independence on getting 50% or more of the votes cast. Those who don’t vote don’t care and will be ignored.
There will have to be restrictions on who can vote.
2. Upon declaring independence, holding the first election of independent Scotland.
Can a party be a co-operative without leadership?
The SNP have shown that a single political-party vehicle to carry forward the independence movement is something whose time has passed.
The massive electoral weight of independence supports and benefits the SNP directly, and independence only indirectly.
Once the SNP had achieved power, and there was nowhere else for pro-independence the votes to go, if the SNP didn’t want to gamble on pushing for independence they had nothing to lose by ignoring it.
We are a proportional parliament, maybe a thing to talk about is how/if multiple different pro-independence parties (differentiated by approach to indy, or other social/economic/political goals) might instead be a better vehicle for pro-independence votes than a single party even where its (notional) core aim is independence?
Its been extremely hard to accept Sturgeon was a betrayer but when its dawns on the faithful that they have been betrayed as well as being the betrayer I wonder what will hurt first.
Whats interesting now is and its obvious for those who want to see it, John Swinney sacrificed these Westminster MPs willingly without a single though of the consequences of their livelihood both for MPs and their staff or how it would affect the party.
Its also obvious that he’s hell bent on destroying the SNP and putting his EGGS in the Labour party nest.
There’s no point in saying the SNP has Killed Independence that was done in 19.09.2014 when Alex Salmond resigned and Sturgeon took over.
I actually believe the SNP demise is Scotland rise. I hope that this can happen before 2026 simply because the party blocking Indy and refusing to work with other parties to achieve Indy is why the cancer in the SNP can never be cut out Sturgeon made sure of that. But with the SNP out of the way the Indy movement can be reborn and be the force we need it for.
About lost credibility, it might be just a matter of the SNP and its membership thinking hay lets look at other ways we can in prove. I really don’t believe the SNP and its leadership exactly knows the full extent of the damage the party has caused in the last ten years to Independence and to Scotland credibility in the world. The trust the people had in the SNP, I believe has gone and gone for good. The constant crying wolf on Independence and the EU membership and just not delivering on any promises they have made in government or Independence or taken us back into the EU. Then there’s all the problems with trust on the Salmond affair, police inquiry and the lack of democracy within the SNP, I believe its all gone to far and to rub salt into an already open wound the party has had two new leader following the same DOCTRINE the general public DO NOT WANT.
The damage Sturgeon and the leadership has done is truly shocking and really sad its taken tens years and everyone who was trying to be a friend was called a cyber nat or keyboard warrior. The woman was a vindictive individual who was actively denying us the mandates she’d been given she was even rubbing our faces in it by calling herself a British nationalist which was beyond believe.
To hear Swinney say he’s to blame for everything thats happened shows just how much control Sturgeon still has over the SNP and the people who run it and the wider spectrum. I believe our biggest task at the moment is to remove Sturgeon from Scotland political area until she gone, nothing will change she a destructive force within our movent.
Watching Sturgeon on ITV I couldn’t hep but notice here was a woman who looked uncomfortable in her own skin, she was leaning away from the people she was sat beside as if they had brought something to the table she was afraid of catching and glared at everyone else as if they were all idiots.
I have no idea how much Sturgeon was paid but I’ll tell you this after her performance they wouldn’t ask her back.
Whiney Blackford thinks he did a good job in Westminster. LOL
Fckn delusional doesn’t even cover it. He didn’t even have the balls to walk out but had to be schooled on parliamentary procedure by Salmond.
The only thing left for those shysters to do is take up the ermine or collect their gong.
Labour can piss right off too. 33% of the vote yet swanning around like he owns the place.
People are too quick to rubbish Salvo/Liberation without even knowing what it is their trying to achieve …FOR THE INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENT . FFS they’re not the enemy . Listen to what they’re saying – and what they’re not saying .
That’s not the Scottish way! The Scottish way is to say ‘ye canae da that’
Excuse my Scots. I didn’t know Scots was Scottish until Alf started posting on Wings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c42dvgPIfSk
‘Gerard Butler Teaches You Scottish Slang’
He says ‘Guan yersel’ is a sign of encouragement not something you often get in Scotland.
As for CD a bit of ‘flash dancing’ outside Westminster might attract media attention especially if there were cameras in the vicinity.
I can see it now. The pipes start playing and then slowing dancers emerge from every corner of the square joined by more pipers.
The journalists stop interviewing Starmer and cameras are focused on the independence supporting flash dancers.
That’s another thing we could talk about. How to attract media attention nationally and internationally.
Make Starmer ashamed of being a colonial master.
Looks like Sturgeon is going to be knifed more times that Caesar.
Another one:
https://archive.is/yxyXe
As independence voters consider, “Quo vadis ?” (we seem to get samples of various assorted languages BTL, so why not a bit pig Latin) perhaps one major lesson from the debacle of the previous 10 years is that never again must any one political party be permitted to merge the cause of independence with that one party.
That the cause was Scottish Independence was lost sight of (or cunningly disguised) by merging it with the fortunes of the Murrells’ SNP. Finishing in the absurdity of independence supporters being instructed to vote SNP 1&2 … this under the D’Hondt closed list voting system.
Political parties, or independent candidates are exactly that, no more, no less. What they must not be confused with is the underlying and greater cause … Scottish Independence.
Advice to SNP. It isn’t rocket science.
1.Ditch the Toxic anti Indy Greens.
2 Ditch the Toxic anti Indy Wokists.
3 Become an Independence Party again and mean it.
4 Ditch the Toxic anti Indy Sturgeon and her anti Indy Coven.
Sam says:
10 July, 2024 at 4:01 pm
Immigration adds to the population in the areas they are placed in. If extra money is not put into the infrastructure to support these new arrivals then the ‘life and death’ issues that you speak of affects the native population.
Out of interest, has there been a recent influx of asylum seekers/immigrants into the area where you live and in the neighbourhood where you live?
You are right Rev as usual! I think you are missing the main point though. True, SNP has attracted the same quotient of chancers, troughers and second rate no hopers as many other organisation, all eager to keep what they can and while they can. The difference though is that its core is rotten. It’s no good blaming the above because the difference between SNP and most other groups is that its core is rotten.
I believe that there has been a carefully engineered and deliberate plan to achieve this desired result. SNP is way to incompetent to have achieved this on its own.
However as with most best laid plans this one too can gang agla’. Fully half of us still want independence and we need to renounce the devil and all its works. The view is much better when we look forward. Keep up the good work.
“He also took aim at the party’s independence strategy which put the issues on “line one page one” of the manifesto but failed to mention it enough during campaigning.”
Aye. It’s easy tae forget when yer not interested in it.
Flynn has done absolutely fck all since he took over the Westminster group bar calling people names. What makes him leadership material? Chapman needs to go have a wee sit doon if he thinks that’s all that was wrong with the SNP.
They’d six mandates & didn’t use a single one. Not even a wee one to lever some concessions. Nothing, zip, nada. All they cared about was their fat bank balance & what was on the menu for lunch.
I agree 100% with Breeks’s comments. Every one of them!
SALVO & liberation.scot is a very viable and valuable piece of work that needs done to aid the Independence route. And I’m darn glad they are part of the Independence cause! It won’t DO Independence – but, that’s not its aim. It is intended to work ALONGSIDE a political method of doing Independence, having paved the Int’l way forward to get global recognition of our right to HAVE Independence. Like it or not, we will need that recognition.
SALVO has collected all the evidence someone (sorry can’t remember who & don’t have time to scroll up reading… sorry!) talked about listing the times the Treaty has been broken by the English Govt, to use that in their summation. Also, it exposes the 1957 LIE that the union was entered into voluntarily by Scots. We all know that isn’t true. Trouble is – the Int’l community doesn’t know that because WM LIED when UN asked them about it with a view to forcing England to let Scotland go if it was a COLONY. Sara Salyers & Co are going to prove that the Scots PEOPLE had no say. And that WM LIED (as if that’s a revelation!).
Due to WM/England, the UN & the rest of the world has a very mistaken view on Scotland’s status. Thus, Scotland has to expose the truth & prove their case to the world. That is what SALVO have been working on and contrary to what the naysayers here think, the advice of an eminent Constitutional Lawyer has been that Scotland has a very good case to present to the world thru the UN and he is, even as I type, preparing his case to put forward on SALVO’s behalf. SALVO wishes the UN council to start questioning whether Scotland IS INDEED A COLONY and if they find for that, then the process of decolonisation can take place. It can also give us the means to question every piece of law, every act of theft of our resources, that WM puts forward and the power to veto those things. God knows, we need a veto VERY badly.
Now – WHY ON EARTH would you get yourselves in a twist about a group wanting to help Scotland in the way SALVO believe it will help? I mean – what HARM is it doing anyone for those people, and their supporters to follow this route? NONE. It does NO HARM. But it could make a HUGE difference if it works as they believe it will. I could understand if I believed every BTL poster here didn’t want Independence, why you would spout off about this being a worthless waste of time, etc etc. But I know people here WANT Indy (well, most. I can see there are some very anxious unionist posters here too!). So many here talk about ‘uniting’ and ‘getting everyone together’ – so… why be rude, belligerent & quite frankly, scathing, about SALVO, who might actually HELP our cause? No one is asking YOU to do anything but sign your name to say you support the action. And no one need even know you did it if admitting you supported them worries you!
Sara & Iain are NOT big egos… quite the contrary, Sara didn’t even put her name down to be on the Committee & she doesn’t want ANY acclaim. She takes people’s thanks for the huge & time consuming hunt through the archives for the evidence, with a very modest reply & seems to be happier working in the background. Iain is simply doing his best to get the information ‘out there’ and that’s hardly an ‘ego’ thing! If he started up a newspaper to get the info out into the wider world, I dare say there would still be those saying his ego is too big & we don’t want anything to do with him. It seems to be the Scottish way – if someone thinks of a way to do something to help, it always seems to be a case of ‘how fast can we knock the big headed eejit down?’ And then we have folks moaning, ‘Scots won’t get off their asses and actively DO something!’… We can’t win.
We either work using, as Stuart puts it, ALL the tools in our toolbox, and that certainly includes Mike Fenwick’s work, to work in tandem WITH A POLITICAL PARTY and an INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENT that actively wants Independence and is not just willing to, but SERIOUSLY INTENDS TO, use EVERY MEANS POSSIBLE to get it. Or we all sit on our hands and greet and whine that ‘SNP isn’t taking us anywhere, so what now’…? Those are our two options…
Hi Rev Stu.
Ask Dan to do an article on the unauthorised introduction of beavers to inappropriate locales. Also the story of the broken sewer pipe in his locale and SEPA’s involvement.
As others have typed, some info on Salvo/Liberation on this blog wouldn’t go amiss.
Also, the use of the word “moonhowlers” should be added to your pre-moderation filter.
@PacMan
When people are actually asked about what matters to them it is not immigrants. It is about the birth, health and education of children, about the incomes of people and the ability to buy the basics of life, about the health and care when ill or disabled of their family members and about their deaths.
Changing the subject, I am a bit disappointed that there is little interest in trying to prepare ourselves (those who read this blog) for what an independent Scotland might look like.
I suggest tentatively that independence is unlikely ever to be won if there is no clear idea given about how the shapes of our lives and the things that really matter are likely to be – and changed for the better,
Prof Brendan O’Leary is now urging the Irish government to look ahead to the end of the decade when a border poll might be won and start to tell people how a re-united Ireland might look.
If we have no fecking idea of what we want how the hell do we ever expect to convince the doubters.
sam
says:
10 July, 2024 at 9:22 pm
You have totally ignored what I had said and just repeated what you had originally written. You also did not answer where your area or the specific street or neighbourhood has recently experienced the arrival of asylum seekers.
In what you have not said speaks volumes of your opinions on immigration and what you think of people who have concerns about immigration.
Any wonder over 1,000,000 Yessers don’t vote SNP.
You used the word ‘bully’ and what do bullies do when they are bested? They watch and watch until they can get their revenge. So alcohol minimum pricing is going to go through the roof. “The plebs didn’t vote for us so…” Sausage rolls and curries likewise, although the laughable thing about this health concern is the lard-ar**d proponents of it. The next two years are going to involve causing as much damage as they can before they are canned. Horrible people. The worst.
There’s nothing left of the SNP that’s worth saving. Before necessary reforms could happen, the party would need a new constitution and rules, but the changes made to these during Sturgeon’s tenure disempowered the membership to such an extent that there’s nothing that those left could do to bring about that reform, even if they wanted to, which I doubt.
There’s not a single SNP MSP or MP that I’d trust to organise a piss up in a brewery, far less come up with a better prospectus for independence, persuade undecideds to support our cause, win our independence, negotiate the divorce agreement with the rest of the UK, negotiate membership of international bodies and set up a Scottish constitution, a new currency, all the countless necessary functions and policies of a newly independent country etc. etc.
We need the SNP to be cast into political oblivion and the sooner the better. Meanwhile the rotting corpse of what’s left of the party is leaving a stench that a sizeable majority of the electorate find unbearable.
The independence movement needs to be ready to fill the vacuum when what’s left of the SNP implodes.
Meantime, we need Wings (and others) to help hasten the SNP’s demise by continuing to expose their catastrophic shortcomings.
PacMan. My wife and I lived in the Dear Leader’s constituency until about 8 years ago. We fled. One of the most irritating experiences in the past decade is talking with people who do not live in areas of sudden, mass immigration. I did, though, get some pleasure from the discomfort of a pro-uncontrolled immigration friend, when I pointed out that she lives only a couple of miles from us and the new invigorating, refreshing and renewing blood would be living next door to her in a year or two. Her face was a picture. They’re all hot for it when it’s not them that have to deal with it.
Hopefully sooner rather than later the Sham Nationalist Party will be subject to a VONC at Holyrood. If it succeeds, all Scottish ministers will be compelled to stand down, with parliament given 28 days to appoint a new first minister. If it fails to do so, a snap election will be called which will finish the SNP in terms of both support and finances. Perhaps the ferries fiasco will be sufficient to unite the opposition, including the Greens, to deal the SNP a coup de grâs. Fingers crossed!
@ katielass04 at 9.13 p.m. re Salvo/Liberation doing valuable work so why do people criticise them? We either work using ALL the tools in the box… or sit and whine “what now?”.
Hear hear. And your comment is a very helpful explanation of the Liberation route as well. Thank you.
sam @ 9:22 pm
“we have no fecking idea of what we want”
Decolonization is the goal of self-determination, and not that difficult to understand:
https://salvo.scot/scotlands-colonial-status/
@ Bob Johnston
I had posted this comment earlier on in the year about the sudden immigration to the area where I live:
https://wingsoverscotland.com/two-houses-both-alike/#comment-2824695
While there is a lot of media attention towards illegal immigration, there hasn’t been as much attention to legal immigration. Of this legal immigration to the UK, one of the biggest group has been from Nigeria which is most likely the origin of the ones working in my area.
I did a search on Nigeria and Nigerians. Nigeria is one of the most successful economies in Africa and Nigerians are confident, dynamic and hard working.
I haven’t had any direct interaction with these black people who have come into my area but I have had ample indirect observation of them.
I have no doubt that they possess the qualities I had mentioned but they come across as arrogant, confrontational and full of themselves.
The Rev has written an article about what will happen in the next two years in regards to the SNP.
The big unknown is in this sudden mass immigration. With Labour in power, are they going for a partial or full amnesty of these asylum seekers that are now in the UK? Will these legal immigrants be given the ability to vote?
I had mentioned in a previous article about how students living temporarily in certain Scottish constituencies voting Greens and affecting the outcome of elections.
If only these legal immigrants are given the vote how will it affect the outcome of elections?
Based on my observations of these Nigerian immigrants, I can’t help but feel there political outlook, outside immigration is more akin to that of Reform.
Sam had talked about ‘life and death’ issues. If my observations is correct, I’ve got a feeling that these New-new Scots are not interested in that and we could see the likes of the nuSNP drifting more to the right in order to bring aboard these new demographics.
These are all assumptions on my part and I have no evidence to back it up. However, I feel I am correct in saying you simply can’t assume the old stereotype that immigrants are automatically going to gravitate towards the left and left-leaning issues, particularly in today’s individualist hyper-capitalistic society run on identity politics where there is no collectivism or concept of a cohesive society.
But.. but … But what about the reflection?
@ Sam 9.22pm Re discussing what the future of Scotland would look like, it is NOT disinterest, it is frustration,WE are shackled to politicians who either cannot construct information that will EDUCATE people of the enormous resources Scotland has because they are incapable of doing so or they are deliberately hiding the positive aspects of those resources on behalf of the neocons
I have constantly referred to the lack of information and education from the snp both Salmond and sturgeon on what benefits independence would bring to Scotland, not necessarily concentrating exclusively on the financial aspects but also the societal benefits of being in charge with control of our future
The snp hailed as the independence party under Salmond and sturgeon NEVER produced any information to show the PEOPLE how rich our resources are and how much is being STOLEN on a day to day basis
It was left to independence supporters like Colin Dunn (Zarkwan), Dave Llewellyn and others to produce documentation online to EDUCATE Scots to the LIES of WM
Sam @ 4.01pm With reference to “What people care about is not immigration, for example, but, literally, life and death issues. That embraces health, social care, welfare, the economy, education, happiness and more.”
Try telling that to disenfranchised people in housing schemes suffering homelessness, food banks, child excess poverty, damp housing, rat infested housing, working poverty, inability to pay rent and heating, and when the perception is that immigrants coming here and never having contributed to our welfare system or taxes can gain access to the underfunded and over worked health services and social services
It is okay for middle class managing with good incomes to virtue signal their good intentions but the ones that live beside them are usually doctors or lawyers with good incomes,the immigrant people or refugees that are DUMPED in housing schemes are competing with the residents for survival
Kevin McKenna labour supporter on Debate night disnae haud back
https://x.com/bbcdebatenight/status/1811160169482486169
@Dubh 5:40
You are correct Civil Disobedience is the only option left. We must in effect become ungovernable. But for that to happen and be effective people have to care…at the moment it would seem that most Scots just don’t care. They’ve sat back and allowed last 12 years of Tory corruption and mendacity, they’ve sat back and done nothing about Brexit, they’ve sat back and done…nothing.
Doing nothing means we continue to get more of the same and maybe that’s what we deserve. Plus ca change.
Some good constructive posts above.
The other thing we ALL must recognise, is that within Scotland, their are agents of the English state who will use anything to cause division within the indy movement. That alone, is their task. As soon as folk try to get started with any avenue for independence, they will sow division, raising irrelevant nonsense to cause arguments and so on. Look at what they tried to do to Alex Salmond. No accident.
THAT, as history shows very clearly, is exactly how England (aka, ‘britin’) held on to so many conquered countries for so long throughout history.
Make no mistake, just as we know special branch infiltrate other political groups, so we can know with great certainty they will be working within Scotland to cause doubt, prevent unity, and generally cause failure.
How do they manipulate people to act on their behalf? same as all other spy agencies, carrot and stick. ‘If you say x and y from time to time, we can make sure you get a comfy pretendy ‘professor‘ title from a university, and a telly series on the BBC, maybe even a book. However, if you choose not to, well, it would be so sad if your wife and kids had to read about those two rent boys you regularly had visit your London flat whilst you were an MP, in the Daily Record – remember?? So, do as we ask, and you and your family will have a great time, ‘professor‘, or ,well it might all go a bit wrong for you.
It is how the brit establishment has always worked.
Make no mistake, London will and can do anything and everything to stop Scotland having democracy and ending undemocratic English rule. History shows they did it all over the world, they will certainly do it here.
Divide and conquer, as THEY say.
@Alf Baird
Decolonization is the goal of self-determination, and not that difficult to understand:
Do you envisage that Ireland will successfully persuade the Unionists in NI that all they need to do is decolonise themselves?
Word of the day.
Gulder- verb
How to create a Land Tax
https://www.niesr.ac.uk/events/case-taxing-land-seminar
Aye, you hit the nail on the head, Rev. Last Thursday delivered a damning verdict on a bunch of incompetent troughers with no strategy for delivering independence (and no inclination to try and find one or consult those with ideas). No no no, that would never do. Far too scary. Soundbites and gesture politics are us (nothing else really).
With all those ex-troughers ejected from WM now seeking comfy replacement list seats at Holyrood, you just know what’s coming in 2026: “Vote SNP 1 and 2”. Will they get away with it this time? That depends on us.
changes in life expectancy. Why changes in life expectancy matter.
https://www.gcph.co.uk/assets/000/001/354/GCPH_Fact_Sheet-Digital-AW_original.pdf?1702908170
There is still a Yes movement. It went away formed and joined Salvo and liberation.scot. As for marches some of us don’t need to march to still feel it. I don’t diss those who do but it isn’t my thing. Not with transport costs and I volunteer in a charity shop until 1pm on Saturdays anyway.
The Catalans could put upwards of a million souls peacefully on the streets of Barcelona for Si. It availed them of nothing except telling the Catalan state that they were pushovers.
Twathater @3:19
Am I right in interpreting that as Scottish media broadcasting that better together are closet supporters of independence, and by keeping such perversions & disloyalties secret that makes them better for Scotland than the folk that hung Margaret Ferrier out to dry over a suspected hangover?
Suspect the work environment may have gaslit itself into believing its own press but, if genuine (and the applause from audience indicates possibility, however remote), the sooner it’s confirmed by Scot lab and Scot Con publishing their respective manifestos for independence, the better (imho)
🙂
twathater
says:
11 July, 2024 at 2:25 am
While I don’t live in the best of areas, I own my property, have worked all my life and fit and healthy so I don’t use any state provided services.
There may have been extra resources allocated to my area to deal with the influx on new immigrants but the perception I hear in the media says otherwise.
Local authority after Local authority declares a housing emergency, there is a lack of doctors, NHS waiting times are going up and up, nobody can get a dentist appointment, poverty levels are going up. The list goes on and on.
While this isn’t anything new, it’s hard to reconcile this though when you see with your own eyes in a space of a few years your area going from nearly all white to something like the UN where these immigrants are running about with the best of gear.
Immigration may not be that much of a problem in reality but after nuSNP and Tories being in power for so long and the quality of life for most people have got worse, the arrival of immigrants is a disruptive element that highlights clearly to people these failures.
There has been many underlying problems in Scottish society that can’t be solved with the powers that Holyrood has got but in some areas, it could have at least alleviate them.
Take for instance, this Housing emergency. There are many properties that are lying empty for various reasons and end up being uninhabitable.
If for example, the Scottish government had been a bit more radical they could have introduced legislation for local authorities or housing associations to get them whether through compulsory purchase or just repossess them and allow them to be used.
Of course this didn’t happen as they were too concerned with minority and fringe issues.
Ultimately, the Tory and nuSNP years were ones of inaction and we are now witnessing the effects of it.
PacMan
I should have made clear, mea culpa, that I am talking about the priorities of people- what issues are most important to them. No doubt immigration may be important/very important to some/many as a result of a lack of will/resource/whatever to have an adequate system. It’s a reserved matter as you know.
My suggestion to Rev was that he/we discuss a vision of an independent Scotland and the political changes that might involve. The mark made by past austerity is going to take at least a decade to change.We may have more to come from Labour.
How do you see an independent Scotland? What changes do we need to make socially rather than consitutionally? Assume we’ve done that and are independent.
As folks hopefully know by now, I have ALWAYS been a passionate advocate of Scottish Sovereignty, even if my interpretation of it sometimes clashed with Robert Peffers, as some of you might remember.
Fast forward to 2024, my views are a lot more refined, better informed, and arguably honed to a sharper point, but they haven’t changed. Independence is all about sovereignty, all roads to this, and Independence will one day be synonymous with sovereignty.
For the avoidance of doubt, my position is that Scotland already is sovereign. We, the people, we literally are the Community of the Realm as it exists in the 21st Century.
We are sovereign, but not Independent, because the title on our Sovereignty, (title in the sense “who is empowered to wield our Sovereignty”), has been usurped and passed around like pass-the-parcel amongst those who do NOT have any legitimate right to do so; whether they be Scots of noble or dishonourable intention, or colonial usurpers such as the UK “Parliament”.
This “usurpation” of Scotland’s sovereignty has been extraordinarily difficult to prevent, not because the usurpers were particularly devious or accomplished, (we generally know crooks when we encounter them), but for longer that the Treaty of Union itself has existed, the greatest weakness in Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution has been the missing linkage which connects the sovereign people with their sovereign rights and authority.
By not being “organised” ourselves, and by that I mean having our Sovereign Constitution properly codified so that EVERYBODY knows exactly what it means, we are like vehicle with no driver, and apt to be taken for a ride whenever a rogue driver assumes the power he doesn’t rightfully possess. “This” is the essential essence of Scotland’s political subjugation these past three centuries.
Forget the politics of it, set that all to one side a moment, and focus on that missing linkage which separates Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty from Scotland’s sovereign people. “That” is where SALVO’s recent contribution to the struggle has been so phenomenal.
Scotland the Nation, thanks in huge part to SALVO’s revelations, is now in the process of rediscovering dormant powers and strengths long forgotten or taken for granted, which will have a PROFOUND impact on how Scotland is governed in the future, and spoilert alert, it will not be by a foreign Government seizing control of our Sovereign rights.
Initially, and until the day we have successfully codified our Sovereign Constitution, Scotland is going to have to improvise that missing linkage described above.
This is where it becomes so important to assemble ourselves as a modern Convention of the Estates, or a Constitutional Convention, a Constitutional Steering Group, OR WHATEVER! It doesn’t have to be perfect, but it must, repeat must, function as the linkage between sovereign people and sovereign power.
The linkage can be improvised, indeed it should be improvised, because properly codifying Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution will be difficult and take time to master. But the primary object of resurrecting this linkage is not to thus govern Scotland, but to address the matter, let’s call it the emergency, of Scotland’s Sovereign authority being usurped by Westminster.
Convince the Scottish people they are Sovereign, (and we achieve this by doing things which Westminster cannot prevent, – see Joanna Cherry laying out Boris Johnston and Attorney General Geoffrey Cox), then the Constitutional Genie is out of the bottle.
“Win” an emphatic Constitutional distinction, ideally something which can be recognised Internationally, (Like Brexit and defending the Claim of Right – FK you Sturgeon, you IMBECILE!), then we can watch Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty trickling down and dissolving all the colonial injustices and unconstitutional improprieties suffered upon Scotland since 1707. The Union will be dead.
This is why SALVO matters. SALVO has already changed the rules.
Do you see it yet?
The political changes will be a return to popular sovereignty where the ppl take back control & vote on important issues. Majority rule.
That includes a brand new parliament. A brand new constitution, voting system, political parties & a public who can sack eejits. No more politicians going off script or rubber stamping shit no one wants or acting on behalf of foreign agents/foreign wars/foreign interference.
Everything else will flow from a brand new parliament.
People’s assemblies & public opinion referendums takes care of everything else regards healthcare, education, contentious matters etc.
Katielass04.
I believe that taking a more legal route like Salvo’s is doing is the answer, and that is only one aspect of many legal avenues.
It goes without saying that those who dismiss it as old nonsense and guff are not here for Scotlands independence, but to thwart it, for they never make any suggestion other than repeating using Westminsters electoriel System, Westminsters devolved government, and to stay on bended knee begging for some sort of referendum within the system of of British governance,
Then there are the other group that ignore a suggested alternative legal logical route out of the treaty of union and can only revert back to repeatedly talking party politics and the who’s who that might be worth a tuppence,
I con’t know if they can’t cope with new ideas or wether they are in the same group as the first one I mentioned, and thwarting independence by also keeping Scots minds away from alternatives.thinking.
Whatever the case may be those routes have been tried and tested and are spent they have had their time in history as failures
The bigger issues is what is binding ( if anything ) Scots and Scotland to a Treaty With the parliament of England,
The old parliament of Scotland was dissolved out of the Treaty by Westminster and the Monarch of England over three hundred years ago. In the year 1707 to be exact,
So there is No true Scottish parliament existing anymore to be held accountable for breaching the treaty of union,
The Westminster parliament official site boasts in 2023 and 2024 that they never invited the ” Scots” people to to join the 1707 treaty of union because in all likely hood the “Scots” would probably vote No.
So where do the “Scots” and Scotland stand legally today.
Their parliament is no longer in a political union with the old parliament of England and cannot be held to account for walking away or breaching the Treaty of union,
And the Scots were never in the treaty of union according to Westminster.
SO WHAT OFFICIALLY BINDS SCOTLAND or the Nation of SCOTS TO ENGLAND?.
Katielass04,
I would suggest there is a very good reason why unionist do not want Scots attention drawn to the old history, or “ancient guff” as they eloquently put it.
There are SO many errors and maladministration made by Westminster back in the pages of history to hold the Scottish people and their Country in any binding way today to the idea of One great-Britain or one United kingdom.
sam
says:
11 July, 2024 at 8:34 am
I understand that you are dismissing concerns people have about immigration but want to look at the big picture.
Lets say my concerns are unfounded and my perception of the immigrants coming into my community are based on shall we say unconscious bias?
Lets say I am mistaking self-confidence for arrogance? If these immigrants, whether legal or asylum seeker are given full voting rights like the same as us.
I just can’t see them meekly getting in line as the poor, oppressed minority that is to be boxed as BAME and for virtuous (white) middle class activists to fight for their rights.
A lot of these immigrants come from very socially conservative cultures and are hard working. I doubt very much they have time for this intersectional woke stuff and want their values to shape the country they have settled in.
I also doubt that they will have much time for the nuSNP and it’s hard to see them being interested in independence simply because all the resources and infrastructure they have depended on has been provided by the UK Governments Home Office.
If what I say is correct and Labour has an amnesty and legal immigration continues, this will need to be factored into how the independence arguments is moved forward.
Katielass04,
The Westminster parliament site openly stating that the SCOTS were not asked to join the treaty of union is a massive boastful blunder on their part,
For it means that the Monarch of the so called Great-Britain that was agreed to, by the old Scottish but ( extinguished in 1707) is not the Monarch of Scots that were not invited to join the treaty of union in 1707.
That has repercussions over the relevance of Crown courts in Scotland and over any Supreme Courts decisions over Scotland and the retained Sovereignty of the Scottish people.
“Legal guff” is very important.
Katielass04.
Did you know that the Bank of England always remained the Bank of England, from prior to the treaty of union and afterwards.
That of course would have a back log of shared National debt with Wales and Northern Ireland as the Scots were not invited into the treaty of union because they would probably have voted No.
And the old Scottish parliament that was dissolved and extinguished in 1707 can no longer be held accountable for National debt either.
How are the SNP not calling in the administrators I wonder.
Probably being indirectly financed by the services. They are a great investment for them.
Who else (in their right mind) is going to be sending Murray Foote their money to pay that cunt’s wages.
Any news on Operation Whitewash? The evidence of their guilt must be everywhere if it is taking this long to whitewash. Or are they hoping we forget or get bored and go away or die of old age. I admit it nearly worked there.
Stu,
It would be greatly admired by many of us here if you could take up the baton on many of these issues,
but I for one am well aware of the threats and intimidation that came you’re way to you and your family which was appalling and I deeply felt you’re anguish over the safety of your friends and family,
After that, I have always realised how much you risked and far you had stuck your neck out for our benefit,
I just wish to say a big thank you to you, for all the hard work and good journalism you have accomplished over the years on behalf of all of us here,
I hope you continue to manage Wings over Scotland for many years to come if that is your wont and will, cos we would sorely miss your great contribution to excellent journalism, good statistics and acute analysis over politics.
Not forgetting your beautiful photography.
Just saying what I was thinking, I hope you it doesn’t make you blush to much:-)
If nobody is concerned about immigration in Scotland then why did 7% of the total vote go to a English-centric party which essentially had not stood in Scotland before, has a anti EU stance and has as its main plank immigration restrictions?
I suspect that next election, assuming labour screw up, that it is likely they will increase their vote share and may even win across the the UK.
Housing, the NHS, public services are all affected by increasing population no matter where it comes from so its not a separate issue from these main topics.
As far as the legal argument goes for independence, Moonhowler is a good description of folk who think this has any chance of success. Even if some group could find an absolute smoking gun saying that the Union was “illegal” or had no legal validity it would be meaningless. The only way for this to work is for the majority of the population to vote for independence and at this moment in time I suspect this would be extremely unlikely to happen. The UK government, whatever party, has a good position at the moment denying another referendum due to the incompetence and inadequacy of the SNP and the SP and can point to current voting numbers now to back it up.
The SNP and Greens have basically screwed the independence movement over big time for some considerable time to come.
Just a thought, with all this talk on immigration. With Labour in power, could Scotland be the new Rawanda..?
Hi Stew,
My suggestion is that you start your own online school for modern journalism. I would gladly contribute $. There might even be time for some of the first graduates to competently report on the Operation Brunchfarm investigation outcome,who knows?
I’m only half joking of course.
More power to your elbow.
Thankful reader.
Thnx
I have no idea who Andy Ellis is. If he has managed to get himself blocked on my site he has achieved special status as I rarely block anyone other than for foul language or blatant lies.
Let me give you an example. Tell us everything about your election. How many successfully voted?
We published the results for every candidate. The voting procedures are independently audited. The election process was under constant attack by forces unknown ( but suspected)
Now I ask you why should we publish any information that would allow those forces to measure the success of that interference. Forgive me if I suggest that anyone asking for that information in the manner Andy did suggests to me he may be an agent of those forces ranged against us.
The same goes for those who demand we publish our plan with a fixed timescale. This is going to be a legal fight what case ever publishes their case and tactics in advance?
I suggest readers should view with deep suspicion those who demand such information.
Our members of which there are thousands and growing at even greater speed after the General Election will be the first to know as the next steps are taken.
Breeks 9:10am, Bravo, well said, and a driverless car we certainly are…we must get behind the wheel and put the foot down to get us out of this crazy limbo we find ourselves in.
Salvo/Liberation is a way forward, Nope they are not ready. Anywhere near ready.
Scottish independence under the US rules based order. I’ll say that again – Scottish independence under the US rules based order.
That is what Salvo/Liberation promotes which isn’t independence at all.
The ONLY way Scotland can become truly independent is out with the US rules based order that means out of the EU and out of EFTA.
95% of Scottish voters think that is impossible because they are stupid and don’t understand money or trade. Stupid enough to believe the Scandanavian model is the answer. The export your way to growth propaganda.
Until we recognise that we can be independent free from the US rules based order and free from EU uber alles brigade and free from a neoliberal judge in a neoliberal EFTA court . Then as Stu says we are just shouting down a man hole.
Until we stand up and recognise that we can be independent free from these neoliberal globalists. Then this shit show will continue for years to come.
If you tell a big lie often enough…..
It would appear that God Save The King is the English national anthem. No reason to stand to attention guys – wake up and smell the Yorkshire Pudding.
@ Iain Lawson at 10.50 a.m. on the Liberation election.
Many thanks for this straightforward statement on the committee election. It is very interesting to see that “someone” is so interested in disrupting the recruitment and administration of an organisation that others say is irrelevant. 🙂
How many Scots in the Starmer cabinet?…2 supernumeraries.
Shout it loud, CO LO NY!, CO LO NY!
Had I the ability, and could reach the nation of Scotland’s ear, I would pour out a fiery stream of biting ridicule, blasting reproach, withering sarcasm, and stern rebuke.
For it is not the slow unfolding light of understanding that is needed, but the spark of sudden realisation; it is not the gentle rain of growing enlightenment, but the torrent of immediate inspiration; it is not words of mild persuasion, but thunderous words of truth; it is not a call to ponder, but a call to action.
The Scots need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake.
The spirit of the Scots must be quickened; the conscience of the Scots must be roused; the conformity of the Scots must be startled; the hypocrisy of the Union must be exposed; and the crimes against Scotland and the Scots must be denounced.
The Scots need a good hard slap in the face and dragged from their beds; and they need to set about the business of cleaning-up the mess that’s been made of their house while they slept.
Scotland has been made a midden. It’s time the Scots got up off their slumbering arses and did something about it.
But first the Scots need to get their shit together and demand their liberation – otherwise the rubbish will just keep on piling up until they are overwhelmed and buried alive under the garbage of another people.
I know who he is. I would tell you but it seems you’re a bit of a snowflake when it comes to good old Scottish swearing.
JockMcT
says:
11 July, 2024 at 10:46 am
The nuSNP wants immigration devolved because rightly they can’t get workers for sectors like agriculture so it will be a win/win situation for Labour if they do allow this.
@ Iain Lawson
Andy Ellis is the know-all who a few years ago attempted to start littering YFS with his pish-water * Civic Nationalism * dribblings , was told to beat it and then spent the next few months telling everyone how he and Stu ( he always has to give the impression he and Stu are in total agreement about everything ) bravely entered that lion’s den to enlighten the barbarians . He’s still going on about it .
Hilarious that he’s now demanding ” transparency ” from Salvo/Liberation when his Party – the world-conquering ALBA – haemorraged a sizeable % of it’s members due to – let’s say ….irregularities/wilful opaqueness in IT’S internal election processes .
ALBA – * unbelievably * making all the same fuck-ups as the Party they were formed to be a credible alternative to . L.O.L
You’re absolutely right …..tell them fuck-all . It’s none of their business and the only reason they want to know is to permit them to sneer and denigrate . Having zero of interest to offer themselves , sneering denigration is all they have .
I’ve been saying this for a long time now, if we are to become independent, we must gain a majority across the whole political spectrum. Like it or not, one million voted for Brexit. A growing number are converting to Reform and I can only see this number mushroom, as Labour quickly fail north and south of the border. How many Scots have no interest in Palestine, Ukraine or any other Washington military excursion for that matter ? Probably more than most would care admit. Time for some serious rethinking in our quest for independence.
At the moment every political party we elect are trapped by the US rules based order.
The OBR and the IFS along with the BOE ( all unelected of course ) are rolled out as judge and jury and play the role of Brussels within the UK itself. Is it fully costed, how are you going to pay for it, ran out of money and taxes will have to rise mantra. As IF the UK uses the Euro and not the £.
The whole idea of course Is no matter who the electorate vote for, the OBR and IFS can run the country by proxy. All supported by the mainstream media of course.
For it to work and for it to be successful the media has to keep the voter stupid. They need the leaders of each political party to play the tax payer money game, the deficit game and the debt game. Then the OBR and IFS can be rolled out as judge and jury and eat them all for breakfast.
This strategy the world over Is the corner stone, the key stone of the US rules based order. The US empire.
It is a full on assault on British democracy Brussels style. The fall back position, the second layer of defence after Brexit. To ensure nothing changes and that the UK remains true to the US rules based order. It is all about geopolitics.
Mark my words, even though the voters are told there is no money no matter who wins the election. As soon as the election is over, magically produced £ billions will be given to Israel and Ukraine. Without – Is it fully costed, how are you going to pay for it, ran out of money and taxes will have to rise mantra never spoken again until the next election or budget.
It is a geopolitical 3 card monte card trick. Fully supported by the media. Who are owned and run by the US rules based order.
Now step in the Indy movement. The Indy movement enter the geopolitical arena. What do they say about the US rules based order and the EU uber alles brigade ?
Well in the main the independence voters agree with it. Brainwashed from the age of 5. To believe the tax payer money myth, the deficit myths and debt myths. That there is no money left lol.
Who are desperate and reach out for the US rules based order EU or EFTA to save us. Which is quite ridiculous when you understand money and trade and don’t fall for their snake oil. The myths that there is no money left and taxes will have to rise to find £’s lol.
The OBR, IFS and BOE all unelected are lying to everyone and only fools who can’t think for themselves believe it. Which unfortunately represent 95% of the Indy movement.
That is the problem we all face. Most independence voters don’t recognise what true independence and being a fully sovereign independent nation state means. When we make decisions for ourselves free from the US rules based order, their prison guard the EU uber alles brigade and the neo!liberal globalist EFTA.
In steps Farage. Reform enters the stage.
English voters are way ahead of Indy voters when it comes to recognising what true independence and being a fully sovereign independent nation state means.
So in one sense why Farage is so popular. Why Brexit was popular and won the English independence referendum.
But On the other hand the Reform voters all fiscal conservatives. Who believe the tax payer money myth, the deficit myths and debt myths. Yet, still attack the OBR and IFS and BOE who now run the UK by proxy without anybody ever voting for any of these unelected institutions.
Farage knows taxes don’t fund government spending. He nearly let the cat out of the bag when he was defending his nobody who earns under 20k will pay any tax policy. By saying it all goes into a big pot but fell short of saying where the taxes collected are destroyed. The pot being the UK Consolidated fund.
But Farage is fully paid up member of the US rules based order. America will tell him what to do. So in the end reform is all about tax cuts and trickle down economics. So nothing fundamentally will change.
The independence voters need to wake up and realise we don’t need to be any of those things and we can be free from all of it. If we don’t our support will be in free fall from here on in. Forever captured by the US rules based order, the EU uber alles brigade, neoliberal globalist EFTA. Unelected institutions like the IFS, the OB R the BOE and Brussels with their EU treaties and EFTA and their neoliberal courts and judges.
Arguing over politics in Scotland when all the parties fully support the US rules based order is utterly pointless. We will never be free all we will ever be is entrapped by unelected neoliberal globalist institutions.
Does anybody actually believe there is no money left ? When we create it from thin air using an index finger and computer keyboard and issue the Damn thing every time the government spends / buys things.
Unfortunately, 95% of the population do. They actually believe the issuer of the £ have run out of key strokes lol. That is the problem, voters are brainwashed and dumb as a bag of spanners think the unelected OBR and IFS are gods.
I’m in a rhetorical mood today.
For the literal minded, I don’t mean we should go house to house around Scotland slapping folk in the face and dragging them from their beds and giving them a lecture – fun as that might be there’s probably some law or other that would frown upon such a direct approach to enlightening a people.
And I suspect such an approach might be counter-productive, anyway.
Perhaps if we skip the slap and present folk with some bacon and eggs and a nice cup of tea before we start lecturing them they might be more receptive to our message.
Breakfast in bed and a nice wee chat is certainly a more civilised strategy.
ALF BAIRD 11:05, Wed 10 july.
DECOLONIZATION ought to be a logical progression yet most ex-colonized peoples struggle with its implementation, the powerful colonizers culture, habits, mindsets may become ingrained over time if not methodically overlaid by another «construct». No doubt the literature deals with the troublesome condition.
The Irish nationalist aim of an Ireland «free and Gaelic too», remains a job in progress.
The curious history of that logo of Palestinian identity, the patterned kuffiyah/keffiyeh adopted by Fatah, is that it was conceived by John Bagot Glubb the founder of the colonial Arab Legion in the so called mandated territories as a distinguishing mark of the local militias. The «Jordanian» colour was red/white, the «Palestinian» black/white; divide and rule by means of different hats.
That style of head dress, producers of nativity plays take note, is actually desert Bedouin not Levantine/Palestinian. The «authentic» tradition of the region is a cloth band wound around the head like a turban. Later, among city dwellers, this yielded to the more practical Ottoman fez, which may be North African in origin.
The rest is virtue signalling.
Extracting colonial signs from the system is thus much harder in practice than in theory. The kilt and military pipe bands as true symbols of Scotland is an example of the «kuffiyah problem», they exist only because of external influence but people may become accustomed to them. The piob mór was introduced by the British yet has found its Levantine niche.
Btw kuffiyah isn’t an Arabic word but a borrowing from the Italian cuffia. The complex beauty of etymology rarely lies, unless by political design.
By default I am cosmopolitan, that way cultural mashups don’t cause me indigestion, sleepless nights or identity dysphoria.
Which cannot be said for local supermarket «authentic» Moroccan spicy hummus with apricot…a mashup too far.
Warning for Iain Lawson. This post contains swearing
Wasn’t there a story about Andy Ellis grassing the cybernats to the Daily Record during the 2014 Referendum campaign.
That was during the time he was living in England. He didn’t come to Scotland with his English family until after the British won the referendum.
All very weird.
He always pals up the whichever Unionists is trolling this site.
The current one is called Campbell. I call him ‘The Cock-a-leekie. (Campbell’s soup get it)
I call the pair ‘The Cunt & The Cock-a-leekie’
There are many stories about Ellis but at the moment I need to get on with ‘Clearing out my Clutter’ as advised by ‘Northcode No Nespresso’
I should maybe try to do his name in French, Spanish or maybe Italian.
‘Northcodio Senza Nespresso’
Strong italian accent needed.
Madonna santa!
PS I don’t think Ellis got himself blocked from Iain Lawson’s site I think one of his posts got moderated and he wasn’t happy.
I suspect it had something to do with moonhowling.
Iain Lawson
You STILL haven’t answered the question: In your “Steering Committee” election, How many successfully voted?
The SNP has been criticized, and rightly so, for secret finances, for fake ring-fencing, for dodgy motorhomes.
Alba has been criticized, and rightly so, for what Robert Hughes terms “irregularities/wilful opaqueness in IT’S internal election processes.”
Transparency and Honesty are things that Salvo/Liberation should do without being asked. Because they’re the right things to do.
So, How many voted? Actual numbers, not evasions, not accusations of shadowy “Andy Ellis” (whoever he is) conspiracies.
My worry about immigration is multi-culturalism.
https://tinyurl.com/vr7szh8r
Two recent sexual abuse cases involving young Romani girls have sparked a growing sense of outrage in Spain after courts noted the victims’ ethnicities and “cultural context” in their verdicts — in one case acquitting a man who impregnated a 12-year-old girl.
It’s always women & children who suffer.
Forced marriage, female genital mutilation, head covering, walking two step behind, being one of many wives, rape culture, child brides etc etc etc.
I bet if the above happened in the UK it wouldn’t be reported.
There is no obligation to answer or even read ‘The Cock-a-leekie’s’ posts.
Give him a V!
@Campbell Clansman 12.39pm
So, How many voted? Actual numbers, not evasions, not accusations of shadowy “Andy Ellis” (whoever he is) conspiracies.
It’s literally all the have bud. Tin foil hat conspiracy theorists convinced that MI5 are out to get them, who howl down any criticism for being closet yoons, and feel the need to try and hide the paucity of their support by refusing to be open and honest with the very Scottish people they insist are just itching to endorse their every move.
Delusional to a man/woman. Their heids are either empty or bung fu’ wi Brigadoon “whas like us?” fantasies that the independent Scotland of their dreams will somehow exist in a vacuum eschewing neo-liberalism and the rules based world order like the nutter Gordon Geko above @ 10.59am. We’d be a tartan Belarus if this bunch had their way. 🙂
In a recent post I mentioned that I am currently reading a book on the psychological effects of war on both combatants and civilians. Last night I read how after Dunkirk the psychiatrists and advertisers were brought in to teach the evacuated army how to hate. The soldiers were shown the worst images they could find from other countries such as France with a soundtrack telling them to hate the Germans but it really got interesting when the words used came up, the word used to describe the Germans was “vile” whilst the word used to describe the people they were trying to motivate to willingly put their lives in danger again was “decent”. Anyone who has browsed both ATL and BTL comments at the Guardian and the Herald over the last decade plus let alone any online board in which politics, particularly those concerning immigration, came up will be familiar with those exact same two words which leads me to conclude that the same tactics which were used against Germany in WW2 are now being used against the Western nations which fought Germany in that war. But, then again, I am one of those people who, what was it Stu said, sees more patterns than someone on LSD in a linoleum showroom.
With regard to this site, I would much rather the owner kept it going as it is one of the very few places left online in which truth is told to power. Some people do not realise that a cleaning up of tracks is taking place, yesterday I did a search for an article from the Guardian in October 2019 only to find that Duck Duck Go had memory holed it. The information online is deliberately being made smaller rather than larger.
Forgot about this in previous post
selective abortion which Humza Yousaf is very keen on.
That means unwanted girl babies can be aborted.
I’ve never heard of anyone having an abortion because their baby was a girl but it seems to be a thing among people from India/Pakistan
https://tinyurl.com/v86fpry4
‘Families want a son at any cost’: the women forced to abort female foetuses in India
https://wingsoverscotland.com/at-a-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-2875652
I told you!
The Cunt & The Cock-a-leekie have joined forces
There is no obligation to answer or even read ‘The Cunt or The Cock-a-leekie’s’ posts.
Give them a V.
‘Northcodio Senza Nespresso’
Mama mia! Di nuovo con i caffè messi giù.
Again with the coffee put-downs, ‘Ruby Due Nespresso’!
I definitely have to buy one now – I have been beaten down, bullied by a wicked woman into conforming. As Oscar Wilde might put it – She might be a bother but she isn’t a bore; that’s some consolation, I suppose.
Northcode
Why is inequality in society something to know about? May I tell you..if you don’t already know … at some length?
It will have to wait though.
@Tourettes Ruby
Wasn’t there a story about Andy Ellis grassing the cybernats to the Daily Record during the 2014 Referendum campaign.
That’s an “interesting” take on the #Cybernat7 episode Ruby. It’s so laughably off the mark that it provides proof positive (as if any were needed in the case of a piece of work like you of course given the MO) of how seriously any of your deposits BTL here should be taken. Are you sure you’re not a Daily Heil reporter…or are your mental faculties so impaired that reality just means whatever you think it does?
Surprisingly for you you did get at least one thing right, about myself and Rev Stu’s comments on Lawson’s vanity blog. Given the paucity of interest in it from the movement in general, you’d have think he’d want to encourage as many comments as he could, and encourage some debate…particularly from someone as high profile in the movement as Rev Stu.
The stark contrast between Rev Stu’s approach and Lawson’s couldn’t be more obvious. The comments BTL which Lawson deleted were simply things he disagreed with, because he’s not interested in criticism: that’s why his blog comments are all clapping moonhowlers including many of the usual suspects who infest BTL here, and why it’s as insignificant in terms of traffic as Salvo & Liberation Scotland are in terms of general support amongst the movement or Scots people at large.
As controversy seems to continue as to which “mother tongue” we Scots require to adopt (or, indeed, learn) in order to throw off our apparent colonised status; be it some form of broad Scots (spelling to be yet determined), Gaelic or, mayhap, even Doric or Pictish perhaps we could commence by displaying our Scottishness with our dress.
Specifically our headgear. I grew up at a time when men almost universally wore a bunnet in Glasgow where I lived and worked. Unfortunately of course this type of flat cap originated in the north of our coloniser, England. (I’ve read a thesis which suggests it developed from Tudor times when it was apparently compulsory for men to wear only woollen headgear made in England). So we wouldn’t wish to revert to that.
The situation becomes even more complex with the almost universal adoption of the ubiquitous baseball cap, imported from the US. Perhaps a case of the English coloniser being colonised by their own former colony ?
So, let’s get right back to the traditional Scots Balmoral, a true descendant of the old Kilmarnock or broad bonnet.
That’ll be a fine, yet legal, sign of our commitment to independence. True Scots Blue Bonnets re emerging onto our streets, what could be a better public display of civic resistance !
Perhaps I should add, for the unco serious amongst us, that this post should not be taken altogether too seriously.
Sam
You may. I’m always interested in reading your views on such matters.
sam @ 7:19 am
“Do you envisage that Ireland will successfully persuade the Unionists in NI that all they need to do is decolonise themselves?”
It would appears that the majority in NI now supporting re-unification have already decolonised their minds.
Of course, the big difference between Scotland and NI is that few people are moving from GB to the latter, hence the nationalist majority will only grow further. Scotland’s nationalist support has been constrained through significant in-migration, which is mostly from rest-UK, with perhaps half of anti-independence voters (i.e. 1 million people) holding to other national identities and cultural emotion.
I definitely have to buy one now
Wait until you read the review.
It’s coming soon.
The Nespresso Boutique used to be in Multrees walk but it ain’t there any more due to the ‘Edinburgh posh’ shopping in Aldi & Lidl & everyone doing Nespresso dups.
Talk about fur coat & nae knickers.
The boutique in Multrees walk was huge and they had a coffee bar serving free coffee & occasionally £5 a packet biscuits. It was next to Harvey Nicks where you could go for a free spray of Acqua di Parma & use their posh powder room.
More later about Nespresso the method that doesn’t require all the palaver of grinding the coffee beans, taping the grounds precisely into the cup thingy getting coffee grounds all over the place then taping out the cup thingy and again getting coffee grounds all over the place and then not knowing what to do with grounds.
Nespresso gives you a bag for recycling which you just pop in the post or hand in to their boutique (not sure if you can do that now cause boutique has gone) they have set up elsewhere but I’m keeping that a secret until review part two.
Warning Cliffhanger!
https://wingsoverscotland.com/at-a-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-2875659
V
“We’d be a tartan Belarus if this bunch had their way.”
Bela-rus is its own country, which unlike Scotland has very powerful friends, why just the other day Lukas-hen-ko called upon China to defend its borders against the G-re-at Sa-ta-n-s warmongering club N-a–to, which it did, it send troops to parade close to the border of Poland as the bullyboys club was holding 75th Rooshhii-a bad summit in the (US).
If the Gr-e-at S-ata–n can deploy nukes and troops around the globe then why shouldn’t China and Roooossshhhii-a do the same.
Meanwhile chief zzzzzZi-oi–nst arse licker and loyal LFI puppet Starmer made his way to the devils den in W–ashing-ton where he was told in no uncertain term that HIS government MUST continue the appeal case against the I_C_C to stop Brit and chief I–C_c prosecutor Karim Kh-an from issuing a warrant for the arrest of the head of Zzzi-o-Mon–st-er snake Net-an-y-hu and his fellow mo-nst-er Y–oa-v G–all-ant.
Anyone want to bet me ‘The Cunt’ got moderated on the Iain Lawson site for personal abuse.
Chances are very high don’t you think
Give him the V and don’t believe any of his lies.
Fuck sake what is ‘Republicofscotland’ thinking.
We’re going to end up with the same old 24/7 ‘Cock Fight’ no doubt ‘Gerry the cock of the walk will be joining in soon’
Give them all the V!
https://wingsoverscotland.com/at-a-loss/comment-page-1/#comment-2875660
Hats off to you Sven!
Very interesting post.
@RoS 1.49pm
Look, we all know you have the hots for Uncle Vlad, but be honest for once, what proportion of the Scottish population do you really think share your worldview? I mean, it’s pretty obvious it’s a vanishingly small number, even if you have a coterie of wee cranks in here who lap it up….but what evidence is there ordinary folk actually fall for all this sophomoric student politics stuff?
Given the choice between Scotland-as-Belarus and Scotland-as-Denmark, which do you think folks are going to choose?
some interesting ones for a longer coffee time read
aren’t all these guys “afro caribbeans” – are we not all “juan tomasinos bambinos”
https://littoria.substack.com/p/are-mass-deportations-possible-the
the americans seem determined to control the borders of some country of quite marginal importance to them
then there was the pakistanis, who deported about a million afghans
is control over your borders a natural, universal, prerequisite for being a country? Who knew?
you need to control the door, once you let them in they are very hard to control, identify, or kick out again; sometimes they blend in easily – e.g. we need to make the english in scotland wear tophats so we can easily spot them and keep an eye on their nefarious perfidiousness
Anglo mythbusting #297
“britain is not corrupt and its just w0g countries … ”
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2024/07/something-rotten-in-the-state-of-albion.html
didn’t know your wibbler could be fixed once it had been gashed
https://www.bbc.com/pidgin/articles/c9e917r0x74o
deep stuff, but not too long
youtu.be/H3Va1Zo4M2I?t=7
werner has lots of good vids
Andy: Congratulations on the Moonhowlers awarding you your very own “Andy Ellis Conspiracy” theory!
The sheer number of Moonhowler Conspiracy Theories is starting to equal the number of “Liberation” voters…..
Sven of The Blue Bonnets
I’m with you there, Sven.
I’d wear mine at a rakish and jaunty angle to match the swagger of my kilt and the flash of my claymore strapped tae ma back as I stride along the high street.
Perhaps one day we might swagger doun the street the gither and turn the heads of the ladies as they admire our sturdy legs. You could bring your enormous weapon along tae.
Gordon Gekko – 11 July 2024 at 10:59 am
You are one of the few on here who gets it! Only thing is most of the rules might be US based but it is NOT the US that is pulling the strings behind the scenes but the same Mafias that own and control the US, UK, EU and most other PRIVATE CORPORATIONS known as countries on this planet as well as the UN which these people of Salvo/Liberation want to go grovelling to to enable Scotland to become as “independent” as all of these other PRIVATE CORPORATIONS all operating under these Mafias corrupt “Legal” and Banking/Financial etc systems.
That will be the same UN that is going to be the seat of the One World Communist Government and Social Credit and Digital ID System with NO cash and everyone is going to be happy owning NOTHING that every “independent” Government has been working together to help bring in via the FAKE Scamdemic – new one coming soon – FAKE DELIBERATE Cost of Living Crisis, FAKE Global Warming/Climate Change narrative, FAKE “Terrorism” etc – are they going to start a real war soon as part of this agenda or are they going to carry out a FAKE one via their corrupt controlled mainstream media/social media etc in order to SCARE the masses into their agenda as per George Orwell’s 1984? There ain’t going to be any voting if these Mafia Globalists get away with their UN Agenda 21/UN Agenda 2030 agenda so anyone who thinks that going to that corrupt UN PRIVATE CORPORATION with their “Legal” guff is going to get Scotland “independence” is just as delusional as those who are still members of of the SNP who think that that party is going for independence.
The people of this country just like every other country need to know all of this and how everything in our countries being a mess etc is DELIBERATE by our Governments and ALL Political Parties as part of all of this I have said above and that the simple and quick way out of this is to vote for INDEPENDENT candidates that know and are exposing all of this that is going on and who know that we should be printing our own debt and interest FREE money which will have the benefit of NO inflation unlike the continuous SCAM of the PRIVATE Central Banks owned by these Mafias keeping printing FAKE Counterfeit “money” and lending that NOTHING to our Governments plus interest on that NOTHING who then rob us of taxes to pay back that £Trillions of NOTHING.
That is REAL Independence – printing our own debt and interest FREE money with NO Inflation as per the Bradbury Pound/The Green back Dollar with NO need for any taxes the way it used to be – Your taxes pay for NOTHING anyway apart from funding wars, terrorism, immigration etc – and NO need to be part of any union such as the UK and EU etc PRIVATE Corporations as we would have the money to do everything that is needed to be done in this country. Who is going to vote AGAINST this REAL Independence is they were actually told about it especially having to pay NO taxes and having NO inflation. This is what everyone needs to know to make REAL change instead of the same old DRIVEL of this SCAM that every party continues as soon as they get into power. The Icelandic people did it many years ago when they arrested and jailed the politicians and bankers involved in this debt based SCAM and they wrote off all of the FAKE debt back then as well – A hint as to what needs to happen here and other countries as well.
@Alf Baird
You dodged the question.You’re not worth pursuing in conversation. By the way, history
taught in schools in Scotland includes post 1707 period, despite claims to the contrary.
I think that a number of folk on this forum really need to get out in the fresh air more.
Some folk think the illuminati are real.
The two questions you have to ask yourself before buying into any conspiracy theory are-
How many people would need to know about and be involved before it would work and how would you keep them quiet for ever.
Who are the “agents” that work on the ground and why do they never seem to bet caught?
A word of warning, though, Sven.
We know thon Mrs Che has a penchant for men in kilts – ye micht hiv tae gird up yer loins if she seis ye swaggerin’ doun the street wieldin’ yer enormus weapon.
On the other hand she might just call the polis and report ye.
Either way, swaggerin’ aboot the place can be a risky business for us men these days.
Don’t judge me, folks – it was thon Sven that started the ‘weapon’ thingy and my immature mind finds it amusing.
The Britnats are ramping up again, even some new kid-on names to share.
Distract, divert, divide, rinse, repeat.
Wonder how long before they appear like a bad smell on the next post….
Northcode
A long time ago… a longitudinal study into the health of civil servants in Whitehall was done.
The study looked at the health, periods free from disability and life expectancy across all the grades from the mandarins to the messengers.
There was access to all health records. Home visits could be made to take blood pressure readings and other medical tests. They looked at as many aspects of life at home and in work as possible so as to be able to take account of variables, for example, smoking/non-smoking.
The two studies undertaken spanned 25 years.
At the end of it these conclusions emerged. The richest in income and wealth lived longest and had a longer period of life free from disability.
The poorest, at the bottom in terms of income and wealth had the shortest lives and longest periods of life with disability.
Those civil servants, not at the top, but could not be said to be poor in terms of wealth and income, still died earlier than the richest and also had shorter peiods of life free from disability.
The conclusion with regard to this group is that a psycho-social effect is the cause. A kind of “keeping up with the Jones”, the stress of which damages health.
It’s a hierarchy, rather like the Barker and Corbett sketch.
It is called a social gradient and the effect can be seen not only with health and disability but with education.
Other studies with animals confirm the effects of stress. It produces cortisol.
Longitudinal studies in children have shown the effects of Adverse Childhood Experiences. Enough of these can cause elevated levels of cortisol. Permanently elevated levels of cortisol affect learning, sometimes permanently.
Boys who have suffered 4 or more ACEs are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol and to carry a weapon. Girls with 4 or more ACEs will be more likely to have an early pregnancy.
Inequality matters. It can cause significant social harm and, if that harm is to be addressed, needs widespread policy changes.
Northcode @ 14.39 & 15.13.
Glad to see that you have taken my sage suggestion re headgear in a similar fashion to the manner in which I take my porridge, Northy. (With a big pinch of salt and a horny spoon for those interested).
In the interests of full disclosure, however, I must admit to owning & wearing no less than two Balmorals (never both at once, I have not two faces) which aren’t strictly traditional, both having chequered headbands. One bright blue, one, for personal reasons, deep maroon.
Now, if my suggestion is acted upon, think of the scope for internicene disputes over whether chequered bands are marks of the coloniser (I truly have seen this suggested and argued) or should the ribbons at the rear be neatly tied or flow free in the breeze.
Gosh, I’m starting to really get into this.
Bravo, Breeks, at 4:05pm, July 10th
Robert Louis said; July 10th at 7:17pm;
“If the treaty of union is irrelevant, then why are we still being run by England? ONLY that document enables English rule over Scotland. Without the treaty there is no UK.”
Robert, the Treaty did NOT enable English rule over Scotland, that’s an English establishment presumption that lacks all formal provenance. The English shouldn’t be running Scotland at all!
The Treaty enabled the Union’s parliament to rule over both kingdoms, with both kingdoms submitting a body of their own MPs to represent them in that shared parliament. But nothing in the founding documents of the Union contains any formal agreement that puts England’s MPs in charge of either the Union or Scotland, nor over Scotland’s MPs. Literally nothing.
Both bodies of MPs are the formal delegations of governance authority from each kingdom to the parliament, and neither body has any authority over the other’s kingdom, or over the other’s MPs. The very fact of the two kingdoms’ separate and distinct sovereignties makes that impossible, unless there is an actual formal agreement by both parties to the Treaty for one or other to defer to the other, and under what conditions. But there is no such agreement, nor is there any agreement for the use of a single flat vote in the parliament’s main debating chamber, so the English establishment’s presumption of a numeric-based authority to determine the outcomes of votes in the parliament is baseless, ultra vires, unconstitutional, and unlawful. It isn’t even democratic, as any well-informed democrat would aver.
England’s presumption of its unlimited authority over the union is thoroughly bogus.
There are only two formal parties to the Union under the Treaty, not 650! It is the tally of their two votes that must count in parliament, not the tally of the 650 MPs.
Our MPs’ ignorance of these matters is an utter disgrace; they really, really, really should know better, because knowing which sovereignty is which and which one they are supposed to serve, and what the word actually means and implies is directly relevant to their jobs as formal representatives of an entire sovereign nation in a union of two such nations. Any real professional MP would have all that necessary background knowledge down pat.
The bottom line is that our MPs have no damn business kowtowing to any English authority! They are in that place specifically to formally represent the sovereign people of Scotland and their kingdom to the rest of the Union, and no other body. Not themselves, and not their own parties. That is what the Treaty requires of them.
Our MPs need to know their damn place, and so do England’s!
SVEN
In the same vein….SNP approved dress; rainbow kilt, palestinian kuffiyah and tee proclaiming «look, no breasts».
Must get that on tiktok.
“but be honest for once, what proportion of the Scottish population do you really think share your worldview? ”
You’ be surprised but not in a good way, that’s why you lot are running ops day and night across the internet to try and counter those that have seen the penny drop.
Sven
“With a big pinch of salt and a horny spoon…“ yer a devil, Sven.
I’m only half-joking. I’m genuinely open to the idea of a resurgence in bunnet wearing – fancy bunnets anyway.
My faither always wore a bunnet – he had a few (a couple of smart colourful ones, tae). The one I remember him wearing most, though, was the drab washed-oot working bunnet he wore to the yards.
I remember when the men would exit the yard gates in their hundreds – almost all wearing bunnets; a sea of bobbing bunnets.
Seems like yesterday. Time; we don’t feel it slipping away and it’s gone before we know it – attempting to hold onto it is like trying to pick up water with an open palm.
Damn it, Sven – you’ve made me go all nostalgic.
Northcode @ 16.51.
Just wait until I start on about suits from Weaver to Wearer, 50/- Tailors and the full Monty (includes waistcoat) from Montague Burton, Northy.
Although, I felt I had clearly indicated that the flat bunnet (I wore one myself going to work) was, it turns out, a quite literal doffing of our cap to our colonial status. Away with this north of England nonsense … Blue Bonnets all round, the White Cockades can be optional.
And it’ll be easier to just buy and wear a Balmoral than to learn a ‘hale new mither tongue’ for the wrinklies such as myself.
Aye, they’ve nae seen the last o’ the Blue Bonnets and me !
It has been quite a number of decades since I last heard “the man with the bunnet done it.”
@RoS 4.49pm
You’ be surprised but not in a good way, that’s why you lot are running ops day and night across the internet to try and counter those that have seen the penny drop.
Oh, I very much doubt that’s the case. What’s worse for you and all the usual suspects is that you have absolutely no evidence at all to back up your “feelz” – for that is all they are. The fact you’re convinced your feelz are right is really neither here nor there.
As pointed out before, you have no polling evidence to support your claims that any significant numbers support your woo-woo views. When any contrary polling evidence is brought up, it’s immediately rubbished as paid for by “the man”, or from the wrong polling company, or suspect because the company is owned by someone suspect.
Worse still, there’s no evidence of any up-swelling of popular support. No electoral success, no political figures of any note supporting your views.
The idea then that these views will play any significant part in securing independence is fanciful. They may indeed be influential in turning significant numbers of undecideds or “soft Yes” types away from the cause.
It doesn’t take your wholly imagined army of paid government operatives to “run ops” as you so hysterically call it in order to discredit what passes for the arguments of the moonhowling fraternity. A quick glance at the bilge they spout here is enough to convince any reasonable person they’re batshit insane.
CaptainHaddock
11 July, 2024 at 4:17 am
“@Dubh 5:40
You are correct Civil Disobedience is the only option left.”
Today’s spineless Scots doing Civil Disobedience?
sam @ 2:58 pm
“history taught in schools in Scotland includes post 1707 period”
Sure it does, however the content and tone will depend on who writes it and what values they hold. Postcolonial theory has a lot to say on how a colony’s history is re-written for them, including that a colonized people “are no longer a part of history” (Memmi).
As for NI, and as the Belfast Agreement affirms, that really is a matter for the people there, just as Scotland’s governance is (or should be) a matter only for Scots, nobody else.
Xaacen,
I wish you would stop peddling the shite about Scottish MPs and English MPs.
As soon as the old Scottish parliament was dissolved in 1707, by the parliament of England and the monarch of England in England, the Mps from Scotland became MPs of Englands Westminster parliament.
Because you and I are both well aware historically that the parliament of England was not dissolved, because it retained Westminster Sovereignty from Englands parliament and Monarch of England through the “bill of rights” and the “Act of Settlement” both acts of the parliament of England,
And you and I are both aware that the Upper “House of Lords ” were transferred by The “English Monarch” to the throne of England into the Westminster parliament of Great Britain without elections, and prior to the first parliament of Great Britain ever sat down on their seats,
When a parliament is dissolved it has no MPs.
When a parliament is dissolved they are no longer MPs
When a parliament is dissolved they cannot represent their Constituents, (in this case in Scotland)
They entered Westminster parliament as new MPs of the Westminster parliament of England , not as MPs of a Dissolved Scottish parliament.of Scotland,.
And there has not been a Scottish parliament for over three hundred years (since1707 to be exact ) to send or elect any Scottish MPs from,
@James Che;
No, James, Scotland’s MPs are sitting in the Union parliament as MPs of the Union parliament, not as MPs of the old Scottish one, and certainly not as MPs of the old English one. Neither of those parliaments exist anymore.
They are there to represent Scotland, and it says so explicitly in Article 22 of the Treaty. They do NOT represent the old Scottish parliament, but as Mia pointed out, both sets of MPs can legitimately be considered as continuing the authorities of those old parliaments in the new Union one. That was how the union of the parliaments was done.
England’s old parliament was dissolved when the English elections became due, although its name had already been changed to the Parliament of Great Britain. When it sat next, after the election, on the 23rd of October 1707, it was as the new parliament and that’s when the Scots MPs took their seats, and they brought Scotland’s governance authority with them into the parliament. It is their authority that Westminster wields over Scotland, and it is the authority of England’s MPs that it wields over the rest of the Union.
That is why it is an arrant nonsense that England’s MPs can presume to ‘outvote’ Scotland’s MPs; they do not possess any formal authority over Scotland, so they cannot legally enforce English-made policies over the objections of the Scots MPs for any part of the Union.
Non-joint decisions are not Union decisions.
It’s simple really.
Sturgeon has been a failure.
Well hidden for a while but now well and truly found out that her head all along was elsewhere.
We, Independence supporters are left struggling with her legacy of confusion and impulse for student politic pet projects that’s killed the so called party of independence- now merely that of devolution.
Independence can no longer be identified with one single party, Sturgeon has proven it.
Sooner they are gone and popular groups serious about independence arise from the ashes the better.
And to the lowest pits of hell with tick- like parties like the Khmer Vert and highly trans Atlantic funded influencers like the Qwerties who really are only interested in independence SOLELY as a means of inflicting their pet ideologies upon the rest of us, nothing more.
Redd out required..
It couldn’t take any longer than just leaving the failed SNP to just get on with it.
47, 48,49, 50% of the electorate- independence supporting electorate – aren’t disappearing anywhere soon no matter how much the Unionists haver on and have wet dreams about it -and Sturgeon on election night tv disgracefully agreed with..
Ellis the narcissist.
Herr Flick there – (Allegedly) in the Indy movement five fcking minutes & already claims he knows not only what the YES movement thinks, wants, will accept, doesn’t want on every topic but also what the international community will too as well as the EU.
He’d have lost his shit during 2014 when there was thousands of events, groups, speakers, pubs nights, bloggers, marches, rallies etc where MULTIPLE ppl came together, from all political backgrounds or from none at all, from council estate to famous to work together as a COLLECTIVE during indyref.
There wasn’t a single person to pour scorn on any of them or their efforts or demanding to know who funded them, who appointed them or when they last had a shit & did they run it past you first.
If you don’t like Salvo, Liberation or even Iain Lawson then FUCK OFF & get on with her own thing & leave them to theirs. I could guarantee you aren’t doing anything at all other than annoying the fuck out of everyone. Its YOU that’d put ppl off but that’s clearly yer intention. Alba has probably lost hundreds of voters cause of you & yer CONSTANT derogatory comments.
Go mourn yer failed Imperial crusades, yer failed EU & yer failed NATO. Proving you know absolutely jack shit on every topic outside the confines of yer armchair & You know even less about what Scotland thinks either. We’ve not been allowed to ask. So STFU until we are.
Young Lochinvar @ 2:32 am
“Sturgeon has been a failure”
Perhaps not from an ‘internal colonialism’ perspective. But then, she did say she ‘felt British’, and also appeared to distance herself from the idea that she was some kind of ‘nationalist’, more a ‘progressive’; so being ‘progressive’ means more colonialism, i.e. oppression.
You are right – “It’s simple really” – If the SNP leadership were nationalists Scotland would already be independent.
@Geri 3.26 am
Put the bottle down Geri. Wipe the spittle from the screen and yer ‘een and you might actually learn something. The only way anyone can know what the Yes movement as a whole thinks is by polling them – which of course our very own Rev Stu amongst others has done in the past – or by relying on how their intentions are shown by how they vote.
The fact that a wee coterie of tankies, sophomoric antifa cadres and post colonial theory cranks in here agree with you signifies precisely zero, and support for their world view isn’t much higher than that.
“We” know what the international community thinks because we’re paying attention to what they say and do. The same with the EU.
The big tent of 2014 collapsed some time ago. you’re just too ideologically blinkered to have noticed. The movement now is more like a collection of ferrets fighting in a sack. It’s not 2014 any longer: if Salvo and Liberation Scotland want to convince a majority of Scots to follow their lead, to contribute to their upkeep and to take them at all seriously, it’s incumbent on them to demonstrate to everyone that they’re well run, open and democratic.
Nutters like you who are content for secrecy to prevail are the reason the SNP wasn’t held to account and was able to make £600,000 disappear in to thin air.
The moonhowlers in here and their wedge issue worldview are a much greater threat to the movement than those with mainstream opinions like mine.
Only cranks pontificate about the failing EU and NATO. A vanishingly small number of Scots agree with you. Centring such wedge issues can only do the movement harm. I know more about what Scotland thinks than you, because I follow the polling evidence and publicly available information on social attitudes. You, like so many of the usual suspects, only have zealotry and wish fulfilment to fall back on.
Xaracen,
No Xaracen,
It was not a union parliament that Scotland elites went into,
Because you and I both know,
The Old English parliament members were simply transferred into the new branded Great- Britain parliament without election and was arranged prior to anyone from Scotland taking their first seats in a union parliament,
It was members of that Still tranferred English parliament that then requested a ” writ ” to summon the Mps of Scotland.
The English parliament Bill of Rights 1689 passed and retained from the parliament of England and simply moved or transferred over to the New branded Great Britain Parliament which is from where Westminster parliament claims it is Sovereign, the bill of Rights 1789
The old parliament of England was not dissolved prior to the so called union parliament but was transferred into the Great- British parliament rebranded name.
They were already sitting as a continuation and transfer of the parliament of England in all but the new rebrand name when they sent a “Writ to summon” to Scottish MPs cown to join the new parliament of England under its new rebranded name,
The same English Westminster parliament buildings, the same English parliament Members summoning Scots to join the parliament of England Members.
Scots that could (not be members of any official Scottish parliament because that had been dissolved officially by the English members parliament now sitting on their old perches in the newly named parliament of Great Britain.
The parliament of England in all but name.
Xaracen,
Scotland cannot sit in (a union parliament) with the old Parliament of Englands still in existence through The House Lords having been transferred into the new rebrand name parliament of Great Britain,
Not officially dissolved.
Whilst the Scottish parliament was officially dissolved out of the treaty of union agreement terms and ratification in 1707. By Englands continued members of their old parliament.sitting in The Great Britain parliament without election.
The new parliament of transferred parliament of Englands – Great Britain also retained the (English parliament Triennial act, and did not officially elect new members until 1708.
If you read up on the triennial act, you will discover that the due date for the next elections of the old parliament old England was not due to happen til….1708.
The parliament of Scotland did not exist after the dissolved date 1707, that was prior to 1708 Triennial Act election date for the old parliament of new elections to take place in Englands parliament of -Great Britain,
The Anglo- Irish treaty in 1800, And the Anglo-American treaty on trade belies the facts that it is a union parliament.
The Bank of England remained the Bank of England, not the bank of Great- Britain, yet it survives connected to the (treasury of the old parliament of England) and the new rebranded name parliament of Great Britain,
The chancellor of the exchequer is the same,
The new rebranded name parliament the Government of Great Britain still continues to govern ( separately ) as and for the government of England and Wales,.
A grim, depressing article but I fear you are right. If the SNP are not going to change then other parties need some sort of support. That could be done in an indirect way. Scots need the positive case for indy to be put to them. It has been sorely missing the last few years. (Yet another failure on the SNP front.) I’d like someone to give the positive case for indy and I know you would do a great job of that.
Xaracen.
It is predictable that you want to retain the idea that everything is your version of history is the right one, but is not entirely dis- honest when your historical story omits recorded details surrounding the treaty of union.
That is pure obfuscation,
Another anonmally that you fail to point out to people in Scotland is regarding the Monarch Queen Anne,
She was not Queen of Scotland and England during the treaty of union terms and agreements and the ratification period.
England told Scotland she was from England, and when she was coronated in 1702 she was coronated in Westminster Abbey as Queen of England and took the English Oath. Prior to any false union in 1707.
And Englands House of Lords and Englands reinstated house of Commons passed an Act to EXTEND her kingdom into Scotland after the faux treaty of union.
If the kingdom of Scotland was already under the Scottish Crown shared with the monarch of England No act of the Westminster parliament and the now new parliamentary union parliament would have been required to extend her kingdom to Scotland, if it was already queen of Scots and Scotland under the same crown and monarch previously.
England extended their Monarchs kingdom into Scotland after the treaty of union by that Act.
And this is one of the presumptious reasons that Englands politicians think Scotland was subsumed into England,
But the nation of Scots never coronated her as Queen of Scots, the nation of Scots never saw or witnessed her taking the Scottish oath in 1702.
England claimed their Queen of England in line of succession to the throne of England was made the Queen of Scots in England,
She politely declined to come to Scotland to be officially made queen of Scots as she was busy.
And the only people whom claim to have witnessed it were people in England wanting a union.
The monarch in line to the succession of the throne of England did not come to Scotland to give Scottish royal assent to the treaty of union either,
The duke of Queensbury did.
The 1701 act of Settlement disposed and deleted the line to the throne of Scots this Act bought a new king and queen to the throne of England, and The house of Hanover and the descending line to the throne of England.
The law Society of Scotland commenter States that no officially royal assent was given to the treaty of union on Scotlands behalf by the Monarch,
From 1701 to until 1707 the House of Hanover were not the monarchs of Scotland the descending line of the House of Hanover.
Thus Scotland has had the right to choose a different Monarch since the death of Queen Anne,
The reason that Scotland did not protest the monarch is because England had changed their monarch, not Scotland, she was a Stuart and the queen of Scots but ruled the kingdom of England but not the parliament of England since 1689,
Queen Anne was supposed to be the last line of the Stuart Monarchs of Scotland, but she had been coronated at Westminster Abbey in 1702 as the queen of England, and took the Oath to England.
Switching which kingdom she wished to be monarch of and which she wanted to rule,
The crown of Scotland having been abandoned and not worn since that date,
The last monarch of Scots was king Charles 11,
And with that anonmally sorted the Westminster parliament under their 1702 new queen Anne of England and the parliament of England could not simply extend the English monarchs territory into the kingdom of Scotland as (she did not and could not give royal assent to the treaty of union on behalf of Scotland)
She avoided this conflict of interest by asking the duke of Queensbury to do it for her illegally. And he did.
The Duke of Queensbury acted under the orders of the Queen of England,
Xaracen,
The officially queen Anne of England 1702 did not and could not give royal assent to the treaty of union on Scotlands behalf.
The conflict of interest over the Monarch of England and no longer being in line of succession to the Scots Crown or throne was avoided by her asking the Duke of Queensbury to illegally give it royal assent
As the line of descent had diverted from being the monarch of Scots to become the monarch of England in line of Succession,
As the Queen of England since 1702 she had no authority even to select commissioners on behalf of Scotland or Scots to negotiate the terms of the treaty of union,
And therefore neither could the parliament Scotland ratify the agreed terms the commissioners of England made with the commissioners of England, under the queen of England,
The whole treaty of union foundation starts with who’s Who and who acted on behalf of Scotland if we had no Monarch and the parliament of Scotland was not Sovereign over Scots.
Again this is reflected in the discussion and debate that was held in 1706/ 1707 by all those involved.
After the Scottish parliamentarians and English parliamentarians, the politicians, the commissioners had all come to a agreement behind closed doors, they realised they were not Sovereign over Scots.
And the discussion was held wether to invite the ( Scots ) to join the treaty of union as well, it was decided not to give the Scots a vote to join, Because in all probability they would vote NO..
This leaves the (Scots ) officially outside the treaty of union, and with no Scottish parliament and No representatives. But with a Scottish parliament that had prior to being dissolved, previously passed the “Claim of right” as a act of the parliament of Scotland in 1689. As Scots law,
This gave no rights lawfully or legally for the Queen of England and the parliament of Englands Great-Britain to extend her kingdom into the territory of the Scots,
Once you acknowledge and establish historically through records and accounts that Queen Anne was officially made Queen of England in 1702 and took the oath to England, an became the line of succession to Englands kingdom she, by doing so disposed and deleted her claim to the Scots throne, to the Crown of Scots and line of Succession in Scotland,
The then throne of England and queen Anne monarch of England and the politicians and church of England and witnesses only in England, cannot make her queen of Scots later on as a whim in England to lend some sort claim to her authority over the commissioners and the treaty of union agreements,
She avoided given her English royal assent to Scottish Royal assent side to the treaty of union as a queen or monarch of Scots..
To this day the Crown of Scots and Scottish regalia are not used in any coronation of the new monarchs of England and Wales,
And to this day the Great Britain / English parliament still govern separately for England and Wales for the past three hundred years,
They know,
But most of us remain ignorant as to why this is the official stance, that the monarchs of England and Wales never wear or incorporate the Scots Crown and regalia when each new monarch of the supposedly Great Britain is not actually a united kingdom other than in rhetoric and propaganda,
Because the Crown in Scotland is not Sovereign, The Scots are, and their territory belongs to them,
This article highlights the futility of sending MPs to Westminster:
https://www.offtopicscotland.com/post/vassal-state
James Che & Xarcen
In these seemingly forlorn sunless days led(sic) by the hapless woo woo nuSNP let’s all just make a point; totally ignore them as irrelevant, get together, head en masse to and formally liberate Berwick on Tweed!
There’s even a train service there 🙂
Then – ahem- safely demolish the Tweed bridges there!
They’ll rebuild them quick enough of course but the point that needs making will have been made.
@James Che;
Don’t be silly, James, you’ve misinterpreted what you’ve been reading, or what you’ve been reading has been carefully misrepresenting the actuality. The UK establishment has form for that sort of thing. You know this!
Scotland’s MPs never represented the old Scottish parliament, even when they sat in it! They WERE the parliament. What they represented and WIELDED was the authority of Scotland the nation and kingdom, and that is the same purpose they have in Westminster today. Literally no-one else in Westminster is authorised to wield that authority, and no-one bar the sovereign Scots themselves can override it, and that includes the monarch, and England’s MPs.
The Treaty agreement clearly mandated the two parliaments be merged for the purpose of joint governance of both territories, and in practical terms that meant two sets of MPs sitting and debating in the same building, one set speaking solely on behalf of the English half of the Union, and the other set speaking solely on behalf of the Scottish half of the Union, and with both sets bringing the authorities of their respective parent kingdoms to the Union parliament’s table.
Scotland’s MPs are not now members of Scotland’s old parliament, and couldn’t be after the Union went live, and the same applies to England’s MPs, since both those old parliaments no longer have formal legal existence. But their authorities are continued by the two sets of MPs of the two sovereign Kingdoms.
Getting hung up on the name of the new parliament is irrelevant, what matters is that it carries out the job those two Kingdoms formally agreed it to give it, within the limits and constraints of the Treaty and the legal and constitutional frameworks of BOTH kingdoms.
The beef you and I share about that job is the abusive, illegal, unconstitutional, and undemocratic treatment of the Scottish representation by the overweening English representation, which has presumed a level of authority over the Scots MPs and their parent kingdom they have never been entitled to, because no formal agreement between the two kingdoms to that effect has ever existed within the Treaty and Acts of Union where that agreement must be for it to have formal effect in both kingdoms.
The authority of the sovereign kingdom of Scotland carried by its MPs has been unlawfully usurped by England’s MPs, to the great detriment of Scotland and its people. The mechanism of that usurpation has been clearly identified as the unwarranted use of the Commons’ single flat vote of all MPs to ‘determine’ the outcome of debates. That flatness leverages the ten-fold numeric superiority of England’s MPs over Scotland’s. But that numeric superiority has no constitutional or legal significance, and cannot justify England’s MPs overruling the decisions of Scotland’s MPs.
Lacking such authority, England’s MPs are breaching the Treaty by ignoring Scotland’s constitution, and egregiously infringing the sovereignty of the Scottish half of the Union. These are constitutional crimes, and Westminster and the Union must answer for them.
Xaracen,
You wish I was misinterpretating historical referenced information, because it does not fit your paradigm.
But I am careful where And how I research, due to not wanting to go against government and be accused of False information.
Everything is from government sites, records and archives and papers that are officially allowed to report on government matter,
If misconstrued it because the record article is not clear itself,
Here is one of those examples.
The Westminster UK parliament website clear state in 2023-2024 that the Scots were not invited to join the 1707 treaty of Union, because if they were given the vote to do so they would probably have voted No.
So my interpretation of that government information is,
1) that the Scots were not invited to join the 1707 treaty of union.
2) That the Scots votes were considered Sovereignly and separate from their Scottish parliaments votes in 1707.
People in England having were not required to a vote to join the treaty of union was not Discussed. due to the 1689 Sovereignty of the English Westminster parliament. Whereas the Scottish Claim of right 1689 make the people Sovereign in Scotland.
Now you tell me where that is misinterpreted, misunderstood or misconstrued when the government of the UK tell you that the Scots were not asked to join the treaty of union.
Xaracen,
Are you suggesting that the UK government official site for published information to the world has form in acknowledging the Scots are not in the treaty of union?
Xaracen,
Are you suggesting that Englands government lied when they documented that Queen Anne was made Queen of England and succession in line to the throne of England in 1702.
Are you suggesting they lied then and are still lying now,
Cos that would cause be a big historical wedge on the Sovereignty of Englands Westminster parliament.
Xaracen.
Are you suggesting that the ” Bank of England” became the public Bank of Great- Britain in 1707.
Xaracen,
Are you suggesting that Queen Anne of England in line in Succession to the throne of England came to Scotland between 1702 and 1707 to be inaugurated as the queen of Scots and wear the the Crown of Scots and took the Scottish Oath in a Scottish ceremony sometime after she was made Queen of England in 1702,
Please provide your date records of this event and where it took place and who was in attendance.
So far I cannot see how you came to the conclusion that I have misinterpreted the records of the UK, and the records of UK parliament and all other historical records such as, the Gazzette.which writes for the records by the Crown since king Charles 11.
Xaracen.
I get my records from official government record sites , and if there is leigh way for those government records having misinterpretation placed on those words, phrases, technical interpretation, and terminologies in the records, then it is up for discussion rather than the presumption you have taken.
@James Che;
None of your responses actually addressed anything in my comment.
“But I am careful where And how I research, due to not wanting to go against government and be accused of False information.”
You have presumed that government sources are accurate and complete. Not a safe presumption. For example; for years the UK Parliament website presented Article XXV of the Treaty of Union minus the Scottish codicil that was added to it before ratification, and which was then formally ratified as part of the Treaty itself. In addition, a lot of the content was ‘explanatory’ commentary and some of that was obviously slanted to favour the status quo that keeps England in charge of the Union.
How can you evaluate material that is missing? And how can you check commentary against original documents if you can’t trust that all of the relevant documents are presented and intact?
There is also nothing wrong in ‘going against government’ when government is behaving badly. You’d almost certainly lose, but you wouldn’t be wrong.
“Scots were not invited to join the 1707 treaty of union.”
Neither were the English! So what? Both peoples ARE in the Union because their monarchs and parliaments put us there, because they were the ones actually wielding the powers of governance. Popular democracy as we understand it today wasn’t a thing in those days, and even for the monarchs and parliaments it wasn’t exactly an invitation, it was more of an ‘or else’, because war was the alternative.
“Are you suggesting that the UK government official site for published information to the world has form in acknowledging the Scots are not in the treaty of union?”
If it actually said that, yes! But it didn’t. That is a conclusion you have incorrectly drawn from a different statement it did make, conceding that the Scots (and the English) populace had not been permitted to VOTE on the Treaty.
That does not mean the Treaty wouldn’t apply to them, and that they therefore exist in some limbo outside of the new Union! If it did, the Scots would be entitled to form their own entirely separate government in their own territory. As a matter of constitutional fact, under Scotland’s own Treaty-guaranteed constitution, they are entitled to do exactly that even now. And with any luck, they’ll actually do that before my mortal coil drops around my soul’s ankles!
As for Queen Anne, I have no reason to suspect “that England’s government lied when they documented that Queen Anne was made Queen of England.” On the other hand, YOU have suggested to me that an official letter sent from England to the Scottish parliament in 1702 containing a formal attestation that Queen Anne properly swore the Scottish Coronation Oath in front of witnesses was an English lie, and you still refuse to acknowledge that Queen Anne was legitimately Scotland’s and the Scottish parliament’s new Queen of Scots, despite having ticked all the relevant legal boxes!
“Are you suggesting that the ” Bank of England” became the public Bank of Great- Britain in 1707.”
I’ve never even mentioned it.
Xaracen.
I will avoid the tit for tat personally stuff, except just mention that I was question the validity of some of those historical notes and records and you intervened on my comments, not the other way round,
Lets deal with missing record for now,
I claim Queen Anne was not officially Queen of Scots but was officially Queen of England since 1702. Due to missing records of information in Scotland and England,
You state that she was Queen of Scots because people in England had witnessed it. But you also have missing evidential missing records to back your stance up,
So how do we find a Solution to the deciding missing Records,?
Lets look at what is fact and what is fiction, then ask ourselves the next appropriate but logical Questions to find a more complete and maybe accurate answer.
First of all I find No records of Queen Anne being inaugurated as Queen of Scots in Scotland, by the Scots,
Q 1,
if there is no evidence in Scotland, where does she derive her Status as Queen of Scots from if not the Scots,
Answer,
from England alone apparently.
Q 2, Can the official Queen of England since 1702, and officially in line of succession to the throne of England self-proclaim herself that She is the Queen of Scots or.the territorial kingdom of Scotland,
Answer, No.
Q 3, Could the parliament of England Claim she was Queen of Scots or of the kingdom territory of Scotland.
Answer, No.
Q 4.
Could the Church of England make Queen Anne of England in line of Succession to the throne of England Queen of Scots or their territorial kingdom of Scotland,
Answer No.
Q 5 Was she The official Queen of Scots or Scotland during the process from beginning to end of the treaty of Union.
Answer, No,
Q 6,
Did she take the “Scottish Oath” when she was Coronated in 1707, as the Official monarch Of England, in line to succession of the throne of England?
Answer, No.
Q 5,
Was she ruler and monarch of the territory and kingdom of the Scots prior to the fallacious Treaty of Union. And at the same time she was ruler of Englands Kingdom?.
Answer, No
Q 6, Why did Englands parliament find it necessary to pass an Act to “Extend the Monarch of Englands territory” and Kingdom into Scotland after the fallacious treaty of Union,
Answer, because she was not officially Queen of Scots or of the territorial kingdom of the Scots (Scotland) prior to or during the process of the treaty of union, this done afterwards.
Q 7, why was it necessary for anyone in the kingdom of England to send a letter of conformation that they had witnessed Queen Anne of England taking the “Scottish Oath” in England,
Answer, because she had never taken the “Scottish oath” to the Sovereign people of Scotland during any period of time of her being inaugurated as Queen of Scots or their territory in Scotland.
England made their Queen of England in line to the succession to the throne of England the Monarch of the Sovereign Scots and extended the English Queen Anne’s territory
Into Scotland after the fallacious treaty by an Act passed by the parliament of England,
Scotland nor the Scots made her Queen of Scotland,
And hereby lies the falsehood that that the Sovereign Scots had made her Queen of Scots, or indeed of their territorial kingdom of Scotland.
And hereby lies the falsehood that that Queen Anne of England was already hereditary Queen of Scots and the kingdom of Scotland prior to the fallacious treaty of union, but only after the need to extend her kingdom into Scotland after the treaty of union,
She was not the queen of Scots or the kingdom Scotland until after the “extended act” of the parliament of England took her kingdom into Scotland.
As a result this Means she had no authority to arrange commissioners for Scotland and had no authority to give English royal assent on behalf of Scotland to the treaty of union, an she the queen of England never did, give her royal assent to the Scottish side of the treaty of union,
She could not use with any authority the Great Seal of Scotland or the “Imitation Great Seal of Scotland” made in England during the time of William and Mary.
No one in England had the Authority to make the Official Queen of England since 1702 the Queen of Scots or their territorial kingdom. Without the Sovereign Scots inaugurating and accepting, and seeing her coronated as Their Queen of Scots.
And no one in England had any official or authority to the (extend the kingdom of the Queen of England) into Scotland
That very “Act” of the parliament of England in late 1707 tells all of us historically that the Queen of the kingdom England was not the the Queen to Scotlands territorial kingdom or at one and the same time “as a shared monarch” with two simultanious kingdoms.
Because the Act itself falsely introduced the Queen of England into the kingdom of Scotland atfer the treaty.
You interposed on my years of research checking if all information regards Scotland and Englands had back up records as was claimed.
You are suggesting because people in England who wanted a union said they witnessed the Queen of England taking the Oath to Scots, it must be true, I want the dates, the month, the year, the place, who was present, and more than one Witness from Scotland who wanted union,
Give me the recorded historical details, as I have at my finger tip all who was in queen Anne procession and all who was in the procession on the side of clergy and archbishops and the Oath of England to govern England that Queen Anne took, there was no mention of the Oath of Scotland during her inauguration of her Coronation at Westminster Abbey,
The Archbiishop in Westminster Abby stated that she was queen of England, Scotland and Ireland and the dominions,
But the coronation oath was to England that Queen Anne promised,
The Homage paid at the end of the Coronation of Queen Anne by the Archbishop was to England, along with the clergy.
Likewise from the barons and earls.
James Che says: “The Archbiishop in Westminster Abby…”
Should anyone believe history lectures from people who cannot construct a sentence in any known language, or spell simple words?
Historical illiteracy is even more awful when combined with actual illiteracy.
Have a bit of humanity about you cambell clansman, everyone here knows I qm looking after my Spouse whom Has Colon cancer,
So every sentence is hurried on a broken computer by someone who is dyslexic, however the records I have aquired are from prior to when my spouse was diagnose,
It it interesting that you avoid the actual topic but try canceling out the person,
You are only shaming you, not me,
“James Che,” I’m happy to point out your historical illiteracy. As well as the historical illiteracy of others.
1) First off, Queen Anne DID take a coronation oath as Queen of “England, Scotland…” See https://pages.uoregon.edu/dluebke/301ModernEurope/Thoms%20Book%20of%20the%20Court%20(Blackboard).pdf at page 417.
2) There was NO historical requirement that the monarchs of Scotland, in order to reign, be coronated, take a coronation oath, take a coronation oath at a particular place, or do the oath in specified words. For example, Mary Queen of Scots became Queen of Scotland in 1542, when she was 6 days old. Do you actually think the infant took an oath? Please tell us the exact words you think was the existing 1542 coronation oath.
In short, as everyone (except perhaps the exiled Jacobites)
acknowledged at the time, Anne was Queen of Scotland from 1702 until her death in 1714.
I could go on, and talk about Salvo’s and Sara Salyer’s historical delusions (for example that the ancient Scottish monarchy was somehow elective), but why bother?
xaracen,
The Scots were not invited to join the treaty of union,
Neither were the english, So What,
Here is the So What,
The 1689 Westminster parliament under the bill of rights Act created themselves Top of the list for “Sovereignty”. In England.
The 1689 Scottish Claim of Right re- affirmed that the Scots people hold Sovereignty in Scotland, not parliament and not the Monarch,
Thus it was recognised even by England and debated to consider if the ” Scots” should be asked to join in the treaty of union,
The debate ended in deciding not to give the Sovereign Scots a vote, because in all probability the Scots would vote No,
That is the “So What” difference.
And thus the Sovereign Scots are not in the treaty of union because of english law Acts treat the english population people as minions,
But the Scots Law makes Scots people Sovereign over parliament and monarch.
But Those creating the treaty of union were well aware that the Scots people are not one and the same given vote to join the union as the parliament of Scotland was, hence why the discussion and the debate arose in the first instance,
why it was debated,
They had captured and then quickly dissolved the old parliament of Scotland 1707.
Leaving only the upper (House of Lords from the old Westminster parliament sitting in the new rebranded great- British parliament,
Scots have never had representatives in Westminster parliament of Great Britain because the Scots are not in the parliamentary treaty of union.
Which makes the 2014 referendum Question a thoroughly bogus question regarding voting on wether “Scots” want to staying in a union with England,
Without the ” Scots” being in the treaty of union it has a domino effect on everything that came afterwards including becoming one united kingdom,
As the Old Scottish parliament was not Sovereign, the monarch was not Sovereign and the politicians and religious elites were not Sovereign.
The territorial land and sea belong to the sovereign Scots in their own Country and of their own Country,
This is why The parliament of Westminster is not in Scotland or over Scots,
And Westminster are are aware of this anomally legally the treaty of union,
And still state in the Westminster parliament site 2023 / 2024 that the Scots are not in the treaty of union,
With the result that the “Scots” are not in a agreement in the 1707 treaty of union to share a Monarch or their kingdom with any other Country,
“James Che” as usual posts of lot of words, but no logical arguments.
She’s WRONG about the so-called “Claim of Right”–a measure NOT proposed, let alone voted on and passed, by an elected parliament. The appointed body (a “Convention of Estates) which wrote the “Claim” had no more authority to speak for the people of Scotland than any other bunch of people. The “Claim of Right” (which she doesn’t quote, for obvious reasons) is basically an “I hate Catholics” screed.
Plus the Convention could not “re-affirm” (her words) something that didn’t legally exist in the first place.
Everything else (and there’s a lot) she writes in the above post is based on these false assumptions.
Xaracen,
A partial extract and Small qoute of “the Oath Queen Anne” undertook .
Archbishops question at the Start of the Oath taken by Anne Queen of England,
” Will you Solemnly Promise and Swear to govern the people of this kingdom of England and the dominions thereto belonging, according to the Statues in parliament agreed on, and the laws and customs of the same”?
Queen Anne replied.
“I solemnly promise so to do,”
in the HOMGE, towards the end of the of the Coronation service this is is similarly releated by the Archbishop and the clergy kneeling either side of him which they repeat also.
“I Archbishop of Canterbury” , “Will be faithful and true, and faith and true bear unto you, Our Sovereign lady, and heirs kings of England , and I will do and truely acknowledge the service of the lands which I claim to hold for you as right of the church, so help me God”
Tis was reported in The London post. 1702.
In the Gazette, 1702.
And a taken quote from a parchment in the British museum.
There are other sources for the information of the Coronation of Queen Anne and the Oath she took of England no doubt, but this is where I archived these records from.
Campbell clansman,
Your link did not work, so I provided records from old English History to Xaracen where he can obtain and research Queen Annes coronation Oath, to England,
Regardless of when a Scottish Coronation oath took place it did take place, and the Scots accepted that there was profound evedence of such,
However England could not officially create their English monarch in England as a Scottish Monarch over the territory of the kingdom of Scotland as ,
1) the Monarch was not Sovereign in Scotland,
2) it was not the Oath to Scotland that Queen Anne promised or undertook during her Coronation in 1702,
3) backwriting a story for history to creat authenticity is not a appropriate way to prove records, they can and must be taken from records and reports of their day,
4) if Queen Anne was already Monarch of Scots and of the territorial kingdom of Scotland.there was no need for Westminster parliament to pass an Act of parliament in 1702 after the (fallacious treaty was signed) to Extend the Monarch Queen Annes territorial kingdom into Scotlands territorial
Kingdom was there?
As I suggested in my analyses and of research of many Records, Queen Anne (Was not ) Monarch of Scots nor of their territorial kingdom until after 1707.
The Westminster Parliament act Extended the Monarch of Englands territory after the union. Into the kingdom of Scotland,
This Act of the Westminster parliament in 1702 confirms that queen Anne was not Queen of Scots or Scotland prior to the treaty of union, and that she had no Authority in acting for or on behalf of Scotland as their monarch or kingdom during the process of the treaty of union and that she could not give or promote Scottish royal assent to Scotland side of the treaty of union on behalf of Scots or their territory.
It means she could not use the great Seal of Scotland, even the fake copy one on behalf of Scots.
And she never did give her royal assent to the 1707 treaty of union, as the law Society of Scotland pointed out,
Campbell Clansman,
Just to confuse you more, The Treaty of union agreed terms and the treaty of union itself was never put into Scots domestic Law,
Hi
The significant part of the election result was the Greens quadrupling their vote. Enough to push the SNP out of at least half a dozen Westminster seats.
The Greens got 200,000 votes in the last Holyrood election. If they quadrupled their vote in 2026 that would be 800,000 votes, more than the SNP got in Westminster election and the same as Labour
Labour can’t get a majority to form the Scottish government, they have to do a deal with the Liberals or Tories. And who is their second vote going to go to?
The SNP will be in a similar position, but its very likely the Greens will be the dominant party in Holyorood. . . . . The SNP and Liberals being invited to be part of an Green government
A very interesting political landscape.
“The significant part of the election result was the Greens quadrupling their vote. Enough to push the SNP out of at least half a dozen Westminster seats.”
They didn’t quadruple their vote – it was 3.3x their 2019 vote, which is closer to triple than quadruple. And they increased their vote in part because they stood in twice as many seats – 44 rather than 22 in the previous election. So really it was more like 1.65x than 4x.