Another holiday needed
By the time we’d watched the Commons debate on devolution for four and a quarter hours, precisely ONE non-Unionist MP (the SNP’s Pete Wishart) had been allowed to speak, for just six minutes. On learning there were still two more hours scheduled, we could take no more and bailed out like the Bank of England.
Clearly we weren’t the only ones.
When MPs vote on their own pay rise, the turnout tends to be bigger.
None of the three main party leaders – the only people who actually signed “The Vow” – turned up for today’s debate. Nor did No campaign leader Alistair Darling.
The bulk of the time was spent discussing “English votes for English laws”, rather than any kind of devolution at all. Gordon Brown, the architect of the plan, spent his 10 minutes or so obsessed with Scottish Labour MPs not being made “second-class”. SNP MPs were slapped down by the Speaker for protesting that Scotland was rarely even mentioned. (Our live-tweet feed archive is here.)
The most notable contribution from a Scottish MP was that of Labour’s “deputy” leader in Scotland, Anas Sarwar, who opined that “[the UK’s] political system, our economic model and our social model [are] broken”.
Readers may be forgiven for finding themselves puzzled as to why he didn’t mention that seemingly-pertinent fact as he urged Scots to vote to remain a part of it.
By the time Wishart spoke,it was 5 min interventions
We have to cope with whatever our imperial masters think they are doing today and Norway has this kind of thing. It’s enough drive you crazy if you let it.
link to nbim.no
I’m just in from work, and reading your summary, I guess we haven’t got home rule?
What happened? Was there some sort of distribution of haggis or other gourmet dishes from Scotland outside the building?
Aren’t the dog days over?
What a farce
Salid Khan did mention, ‘how detested MP’s are’.
the only reason Anas Sarwar said that and is trying to look humble is because he represents Glasgow central and he knows hes in big trouble come election
Thank you so much proud Scot buts http://www.debtbombshell.com
I think people should realise:
1. It is WM policy to keep the lid on Scotland and never offer Scotland anything, but to asset strip it and run it like a colony. It is pointless to expect anything else, and it is naive to believe anything else. If people do not understand this by now, after 300 years of history — well, maybe they deserve another 300 years of the same.
2. The Labour Party exists to do the work of the Tories in Scotland (and, in general, in non-Tory areas). The Tories are completely relaxed about Labour MPs in non-Tory areas. George Galloway called them two cheeks of the one arse. Wrong. They are the one cheek of the one arse.
What is to be done? Open the eyes of others to this and work determinedly and doggedly towards independence. Do not waste energy on WM. It is not worth your time or energy.
Why are posts vanishing? I just posted, and the thread isn’t there any more, never mind my post!
Is Wings knackered, or is my PC knackered?
Do you expect anything better from wastemonster?
Scotland will get extra powers but they will be watered down and pretty much meaningless.
The true face of Better Together – it’s arse.
Shows were there priorities lie. Queueing up to get handouts from the tax-payer.
Why is my email address being changed and my blogs being blocked?
I just came back from my own holiday, Rev, and it looks like we both made a terrible decision. In my case, I’d been working on something in this vein:
link to wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com
This is the start of the “big project” I’d been talking about, where I compare how Scottish MPs voted on devolutionary matters. I noticed from my reading of what other people are saying about the More Powers For England Debate that few Scottish MPs actually bothered to do what they were supposed to, and indeed, a few like McClymont actively berating the SNP for DARING to push for the powers HIS OWN PARTY was promoting.
In upcoming weeks, I’ll be looking at individual MPs, utilising Arc of Prosperity’s great post about which constituencies would be hardest for SNP to break, in order to lay out in no uncertain terms just why we need to GET THESE PEOPLE OUT OF OFFICE.
Disgusting waste of time.
Cameron, Milliband and Clegg should be held to account for their lies.
It has already changed since my last blog 2minutes ago part of my email address is my name paterson this keeps changing to pateifurrson can any one help?
Are we surprised, no I doubt that. We knew our imperial masters would make a mockery of us, and thanks to the 55% we are getting it.
Well we all know what we have to do which is keep the heid and let the 55% feel the pain. I for one will sit back and let ’em.
I heard the debate and it was quite pathetic.
I wonder what goes through a No voter’s mind, the ones with a conscience, each time Westminster MPs thumb there nose at their loyalty to the union.
Daibach as I have just said on Derek Bateman, who is going to listen and who is going to hold them to account. They have the very compliant media and broadcasting in their pocket. Ever wonder why Blair made such a fuss over David Kelly, he got the BBC terrified. Then they stuffed it with compliant people, all Labour up here.
Sad thing is, this doesn’t surprise me at all. Scotland has always been 2nd class in the house of comical.
The fool Brown was rambling on about the worry of Scottish MPs being treated as 2nd class. Completely oblivious to the fact that they have always been treated 2nd class. (including himself)
Where was nawbags Galloway?
Must have been tired out with having just campaigned so much against Scotland and Palestine’s statehood in the mother of all parliaments.
Words cannot describe the contempt I have for these pieces of human garbage but I’ll have a go anyway. Liars, hypocrites, parasites, corrupt, selfish, greedy, contemptible, back stabing, self serving ……. the rest would just be expletives.
Gordon Brown was duped.
He didn’t know what he signed up for, and sold it under false pretences.
He, and the rest of the Labour Party, have lost face, as is demonstrably clear by their reactions to the Tory proposals as they become more and more aware just how deeply they’ve fallen right into the trap. (you think they would have learned something watching the LibDems get royally shafted by the Tories, however, it seems there’s no fools like an old Labour fools)
So now they’re swinging about looking for someone else to blame, and are rudely suggesting that it’s all the SNP’s fault for wanting independence, and (post-ref)devo-max because if they didn’t, they would agree with Labour to a minor devolution of powers.
They’re attempting to scapegoat the SNP for their own failings.
Somethings or Somebodies missing for today’s posts?
Can you help me Children?
It can come as no surprise to anybody, that this farce is now in the parliamentary waste bin and that the ‘no’ boys and girls are squabbling over how little they can possibly get away with, without causing too much damage to their electoral chances in next years election. How utterly predictable these people are and how foolish so many people in Scotland must now be feeling.
Dear Rev. Stu.
Please make a statement on what is happening with vanishing and delayed posts.
Re – arrange the following into a well known phrase or saying:
You I Told so
@ Grouse Beater
Tumbleweed and a Ry Cooder track.
Hasn’t that second picture of all the MP’s turning up to vote on their payrise been shown to be false? (I don’t know why I’m trying to be fair to them but I’ve heard from a few people that they’re not voting on payrises in that photo – Hope I’m wrong).
Still watching.
Why is it called ‘Debate on devolved powers following the Scottish Referendum’?
In actual fact as verified by the speaker the debate is on all parts of UK devolution. Of course this means it has been dominated by the ‘English votes for English Laws’ issue (someone has just said it again as I type).
So what is the link to the name? It would have been as well to be following Coronation Street. This is a clear device to muddy the waters and take away any time to actually debate on Scottish powers which there has been precious little.
FFS they have had 37 years to debate on the West Lothian Question.
Some of the points being made by these people are disgraceful and I will summarise the ‘debate’ as:
English Votes for English Laws. You lost. English votes for English Laws. Shut up and take what your given whinging Jocks. English Votes for English Laws. The vow meant nothing and next time you want a referendum you will need a 2/3rd majority. English Votes for English Laws. In fact we might take away the Barnett Formula you subsidy junkies. English votes for English Laws, ad infinitum
Painful watching, embarrassing at times, insulting at others.
I give in. The blog is unusable!
But as ever it was all so gentlemanly – with the Tories obviously relishing the labour discomfort.
Scotland did get the occasional mention.
Why did they hold this at the same time as they hand in expenses claims?
Business as usual.
Short term pain for forever gain, all we have to do is let them be themselves, let them make the mess of this that they are so clearly intent on making and be ready for the general election.
Well if there was any shred of doubt before, there is surely zero now. The ‘vow’ was and indeed is a lie, a fabrication, a waste of ink, broadcast time and oxygen, utter and complete bollox top to bottom.
Four plus hours of how not to discuss devolved powers for Scotland. Now if you happen to be glancing through these threads and happened also to have voted no on the day, all is not lost. We can and hopefully in the very near future, rectify this fraudulently achieved result.
In the meantime vote these lying, deceitful, self serving and arrogant toads out of office in May and return pro indy MPs to Westminster.
A not so feeble forty as it were.
FGS don’t go off on hols again for a while…
Need to work out how we wipe the sneers off these f*ckers faces. How on earth do the SNP MP’s stand it?
It is hard to put into words, without swearing, my absolute and total outrage at these utter cretinous beings who inhabit Westminster.
I am soooooooo angry about this. If moronic unionist Westminster MP’s want to ensure Scotland eventually becomes another Ireland circa 1922, then they are doing ALL the right things.
There is only so much of this crap, that any country can take.
Quick update for all those who would desperately love to be glued to the WM debate on Devolution of powers for Scotland, but unfortunately have other pressing duties:
Current speaker singing the praises of the TourdeFrance in Yorkshire.
You would have been gutted to miss that, wouldn’t you.
Juteman
It works ok for me.
What OS, windows or mac and which browser?
I use Firefox but on a Mac,
Watched some of the debate when I got home, I honestly feel physically sick.the contempt in which Westminster hold Scotland is mind blowing. The feeling of immense sadness I had on the 19th has returned.
Oh Dear – Beaker has appeared on the front bench ….. time for me to turn off and go do something more productive.
The only thing required to make it more farcical would be an LOL/EDL band playing “Britannia Wives the Rools”.
I wonder if the No voters are feeling the love ?
Didn’t we just guess that this debate would be a useless exercise? Just another part of failing the vow,we are right on our new target. Vow failure imminent lol.
Juteman
I can see your comments but no biggish post.
Seems to happen to a lot of folk in busy times.
i would ditch my cookies and try again.
Hope that works bud.
Juteman – it’s your machine.
My PC has a multi minute lag
My laptop is instant
Just don’t ask me how that is.
But I do sympathise.
A farce. A complete farce.
I hope that they get EVEL through. That will give Labour a big kick. I get the impression that the Lib Dems are worried as much as Labour are. Labour for losing voting rights of the Scottish MPs, and LD’s because they worry about being wiped out.
clean your cache?
BtP: Tumbleweed and a Ry Cooder track.
Nice visual image, there, BtP!
Let’s get one thing straight.
The Broon person wasn’t duped. He is an ex PM and future Lord, and he knew exactly what he was saying.
He hates Scotland, and wants it to be part of his North Britain, not a ‘real’ country.
O/TLooks like fracking companys will be able to leave what they want underground.
link to rt.com
EVEL could happen today “if Scottish members of the Parliament like the SNP would simply say they would no longer vote on English only matters” John Redwood (Con).
Missed the first umpteen hours, thank god.
Did the Tory guy just admit that we were not subsidised .
Margaret Curran right now; Hypocricy on Stilts.
Curren couldn’t help herself
Alex Salmond get real
summing up debate
Yeah, but at least it’s good to know the dollar’s strong again and all’s right with the world….SIGH…
Note stv / bbc reports of tlllhe debate both included snp spokespersons getting rebuke from speaker,but no mention that miliband clegg and darling didnt show up.
I don’t know what the timetable for Indy is expected to be exactly
but the SNP exec or the Yes movement
better come up with one soon
‘cos I aint in any mood for waiting a long time.
Just declare Indy invalid due to the false promises and let’s get on with it.
If we all concentrate really hard really really hard we could make her mouth seal up and trap the bile the vomiting from her.
6 hours of evidence we have been padlocked into our box after being zipped up the front and back.
Furious again at what we’ve handed our country back to. Effin Grrrr
I’ve tried Chrome and IE.
I have to retype my details each time, and I have to wait around 10 to 15 minutes before my posts turn up, and others post are there.
I’ve tried all the usual cache clearing, etc, etc,
Elaine: time for me to turn off and go do something more productive.
I enjoy your running commentaries!
Just awful viewing but hardly surprising. One thing though, while Wishers was asking where the party leaders were,where did Angus Robertson skip off to?
alistair carmichael
make it stop
make it stop
make it stop
please God make it stop.
Traitorous SCUM.
Red and Yellow and Blue ah canny sing a Rainbow withoot the Greens.
What a load of pish being talked. I hope there,s plenty of NO voters watching how Westminster is shafting them again.
SNP should now withdraw from the Smith commission, they made the VOW let them deliver without any help from any Indy party,s, we now see they will not deliver anything.
Hey !! Daily Record … you’ve been shafted big time… bye bye
Meantime, as the Westminster debate was taking place, Ireland was having its budget, A mixture of tax cuts and spending increases, but even with these a forecast deficit of 2.7 per cent in 2015 (less than half that of George Osborne). All possible because its borrowing costs on international markets are less than half those of the UK and its forecast growth rate is 5-6%, almost twice that of the UK.
@Grousebeater
My kitchen is sparkling hon – cooked up a storm and cleaned every inch. Its amazing how much energy you can have when you are fuming
Did I really hear some tosser say that because The Vow wasn’t agreed by Parliament it had no validity? Geezo!
PS Silly me. On the BACK of The Vow it says in tiny letters that this was all the promises were made up by the three stooges and should not be taken seriously, except when you’re putting your cross on the ballot paper.
Labour are trying to get more power devolved to the councils. They think that they have more chance of controlling Scotland through the councils! A way to by pass the SG?
It was really quite something witnessing Gordon Brown making the case against full devolution of income tax. His speech seemed to be more about how difficult it would be to devolve powers. Well we had a very simple solution last month, but you helped ruin that, you fud.
Could’nt help noticing “Crash Gordon” quoting from the bible yet again, it’ll be loaves and fishes soon “Bretheren”
Is it only us can see the man’s bonkers
The SoS for partitioning Scotland-you couldn’t imagine a worse person for the job.
I pray the good folks of Orkney remove this treacherous snake from office.
Robert Louis says: There is only so much of this crap, that any country can take.
But that’s not strictly true, is it? All of this was foreseeable and predictable – the warnings were posted everywhere pre 18/9. Yet once again Scotland obligingly and knowingly walked straight into the shite, aided and abetted by a woeful performance from a lacklustre SNP during the campaign. It wasn’t WSM wot won it, it was Salmond wot lost it.
Despite the grinding of teeth on here, if there was a referendum tomorrow Scotland would still vote NO; Salmond/Sturgeon would still be more interested in securing devo-max from WSM (..pretty pleasssse???), and SNP supporters would still be wallowing in the injustice of it all… etc… Wakey, wakey!! Oh forget it.
Bet ya’ll Catalonia doesn’t turn feart on the 9th November.
yes, well, westminster is as westminster does!
Couple of thoughts came to mind
1) agree with trying to get as many scottish nationalist MPs (SNP, Greens or SSP where most appropriate) into Westminster seats in GE 2015
2) might scottish nationalist parties consider alliances with plaid Cymru and sinn fein – one nationwide push? Standing all over the UK so no excuses for not having them on TV for debates?
3) Would it be worth copying Sinn fein’s refusal to take seats in Westminster and swearing oath of allegiance? particularly if all nationalist parties were in a nationalist alliance?
over to you all for discussion!!
A complete farce. Scotland simply being ignored by Westminster once more.
Elaine Collier
Fancy a wee working holiday in France?
Rev, could we have a Roll Call in case any Wingers have given up the will to live.
@Juteman
Let’s get one thing straight.
The Broon person wasn’t duped. He is an ex PM and future Lord, and he knew exactly what he was saying.
Absolutely correct. Brown did know what he was doing, he is a ermine chaser, and he could not bear the thought of being denied what he regards as his rightful place in the House of Lords. Once enough people realise that Labour in Scotland are only interested in self preservation, and maintaining their privileges and careers, only then will we make the progress that is required. The Red Tories are as selfish and greedy as the Blue Tories.
@ Kid Spotlight
Thanks you very much for your erudite concern.
Now, fuck off troll.
@Kid Spotlight
I see you are going on about how the SNP lost the referendum. What a load of garbage. We lost because of the fact that pensioners were told they would lose their pensions, there was all the warnings of various disasters from big business, there was the complete bias of the MSM, and the vow and all the promises made by the unionists in the last few weeks. I don’t know what you are trying to achieve.
Mogabee: How on earth do the SNP MP’s stand it?
They get jeered and laughed at a lot, as well as shouted down whenever they try to speak.
@ Bugger the Panda
Packing my Marigolds now hon
How many times do we have to keep saying how the MSM will distort the facts of what is going on. Just a picture of the chamber showing how few turned up and who didn’t turn up would tell the whole story but it won’t be told. We need a newspaper on the streets that shows these people up for the liars that they are. I have looked at the Scottish Statesman and it is good but it won’t be read by anyone but the converted. Papers left in railway carriages, on buses, in cafes, in workplaces and even on the streets would give us a presence that we do not have in the everyday life of most people. Is anyone trying to set up a newspaper. If so please tell me about it.
I’m posting this just to see when it appears.
The last post I can see is M4kyboys post at 7.07 pm, and i’m posting right after his.
Seems like we are back where we were, a side issue in the goldfish bowl of Westminster, where the ‘big’ fish eat the little ones and the bait of new powers for us in Scotland are nothing more than the bitter taste of a rubber lure.
Posted right after M4kyboys post at 7.07pm to see when it will show up.
Elaine: Its amazing how much energy you can have when you are fuming
Very true. I notice our First Minister activates an invincible energy screen around himself whenever seething mad over dumbass interviewers or political liars.
Well well then. thats that eh! Hook.line and sinker! GE run up all pro indy minded MUST use every possible means to educate the uneducated. help the blinkerd see and share all possible knowledge that may plant the seed. inspire lightbulb moments of around 6% of the voting people of this dear place. Today is another chapter of a new challenge and all todays wee games has done is handed US some very predictable ammunition to use to get the ball rolling again. ONWARDS DEAR PEOPLE. ONWARDS
Totally agree with you, manandboy.
Declare the referendum null and void due to false promises.
F–k the lot of them!
I for one am not prepared to hang around watching them take the piss like last time.
I’m prepared for whatever it takes to get this done.
C’mon SG….give us some direction!
Surely they have broken the law on countless occasions, so why should we abide by their rules?
Let’s throw a cat among the pigeons here and see what happens!
Dr Jim: Could’nt help noticing “Crash Gordon” quoting from the bible yet again
Once a son of the manse, always a son of the manse.
That Presbyterian toad doesn’t so much squat on his shoulder, more he swallowed it whole and it squats there.
Maybe all the missing MP were busy reading WoS?
Bugger (the Panda) @ 7:17pm: Now, fuck off troll.
It’s convenient to conflate truth telling with trolling, it must make you feel so much better. WoS clearly needs 100% of comments to be of the ‘poor old oppressed us being dumped on again’ variety. And how about changing your name to Bugger (the Ostrich) instead?
This will not get any better. 18/9 was the best chance. Expect a complete constitutional / corporate stitch up over the coming months – this is just the start. Don’t blink, don’t back down – f**k I said it often enough during the campaign. The SNP will not deliver independence, as it currently doesn’t know how to.
Clearly they think that the Scots, good nature will persist after they shaft us again. Why not we have always rolled over in the past. This time We need to declare independence and be done with it.
@ kid spotlight
“Bet ya’ll Catalonia doesn’t turn feart on the 9th November.”
You’re right.
This is because their plans for a referendum then have been called off.
Now I know it’s past your bedtime kid, but if you’re going to stay up late with the adults, do try to keep up.
Chill out! Scotland game.
non bbc types if it’s on there?
link to u-peak.me
@Juteman:
Various parameters are to blame, but I don’t think it’s related to your browser. There seems to be a per-IP address cache to fend of DDoS. That would explain the 20 min delay most of us experience. I know it’s frustrating, but at the same time this blog is not Skype.
@BtP:
You need some to cook your bamboo saplings à la Toulousaine?
muttley79 says:
14 October, 2014 at 7:21 pm
@Kid Spotlight I see you are going on about how the SNP lost the referendum. What a load of garbage. We lost because of… etc. etc.
Until people wake up and admit the SNP had been tail dragging for months then there is no hope. It was the responsibility of Salmond et al to prepare a robust winning campaign. He’e nobody’s fool, after all, and the attacks from MSM and WSM were completely predictable and eminently defensible in a toothless dog sort of way. Salmond’s performance in debate no1 (in particular) was woeful. And he just stood by passively as a bent promise of devo-max replaced NO as an option, in breach of the purdah rules. At that point the referendum should have been cancelled – or at least the threat issued. Instead he got himself sidetracked into sensitive stock market info issues, while the big issue was staring him in the face..
He bottled it, sorry, but that’s the truth.
There is only one solution … Don’t let the bastards sleep easy at night! We need to make sure they know … their Union is not safe! It is on borrowed time.
Presumably Broon didn’t present “his” petition with over 100,000 signatures … Ah well, back to normal:
Da da da da di-da da di-da
7/5/15 !
Just want to say Welcome back Stu.
Swami Backverandah says: This is because their plans for a referendum then have been called off.
Thanks for that, didn’t realise there had been a stitch up over there as well today. I still say Catalonia will get independence before Scotland regardless of Madrid legalities.
Unfortunately…exactly as expected. But will the ‘No’s even care? As I’ve met almost none, but spoken to friends who have, the general message is that they want the ‘Vow’ and any extra powers to go away. Well it has.
But let’s face it there must still be enough of the 45% plus the (honestly deluded?) soft ‘NO’s to demand that the SNP and the YES Alliance remain defiant and not give a fucking inch to these Colonial swine. We must fight them all the way and put Labour to the sword, once and for all, at the G.E. next May.
Brown new exactly what he was doing. Oldest trick in the book. Make promises you know will never happen, then blame it on the other side. Then look outraged.
i feel disenfranchied, cheated and very depressed watching this pish
dunno why, i never expected anything better and no one here led me to believe otherwise
i guess it is the smug look on the tories faces
i prefered the other post about boycotting th msm,it at leas focussed my energies
I’m convinced The “Vow” didn’t make much difference on the vote. I suspect it eased the conscious of some who voted no and who would have voted no anyway.
It’s the inevitable huge cuts that are coming that may swing a sufficient number of no voters to yes.
Isn’t the biggest surprise of this debate that Brown has turned up for once to do the job his constituents elected him for?
After 2015 and 2016, provided SNP, Scottish Greens and SSP make good progress in both, Holyrood should declare another referendum. After that, UDI.
Redwood and Danczuk, little roundup with Andrew Neil earlier, during the debate…must’ve gone oot for a toilet break. For those who didn’t catch the essence of what it’s about from the Tory position…
link to youtube.com
ronald
£5 bet the snp get blamed
@Kid Spotlight
Bugger was right about you. I simply don’t believe you support independence. You always blame the SNP, no mention of MSM, big business scaremongering, no mention of unionist deceit.
Don’t know how to get onto the other thread, but here are two Irish born English PMs who were as glad to be British as Broon and Co. Tory O’Blair and his family took Irish passports.
William Petty-FitzMaurice, the Earl of Shelburne (1782 – 1783) Irish, born in Dublin
Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington (1828 – 1830/Nov-Dec 1834) Irish, born in Dublin; although he fiercely considered himself English by stating “Being born in a barn does not make one a horse”
Being born in a stable does not make you Jesus Christ neither.
Kid Spotlight: some of what you say may sound superficially correct…but consider this: sure Brown broke purdah..but if AS had called off the REF, what kind of opprobrium would have poured down on his head from all sides, including YES supporters if he had done so??….Cowardly Jock being the least of it.
By the way.. keep up the comments and with your moniker the Wingers will booglarise ya baby.
We must fight them all the way and put Labour to the sword, once and for all, at the G.E. next May.
agreed 100%
@Schrodingers cat
£5 bet the snp get blamed.
Who by? Kid Spotlight?
Test 20:27
Test 20:39
Stand by to be told that only a vote for Labour at the next election can bring the Unionists devolution promises to fruition.
Labour are about setting themselves up as the saviours of Scottish devolution. They think our heads button up the back. Let’s all work extra hard to make sure they don’t get away with it, and instead are ridiculed at every opportunity.
Well, anyway. Poland 1 Scotland 1 at half time.
The Vow did make a huge difference to the vote. So did Brown’s eve of poll speech. Ashcroft’s poll showed that 25% of No voters made up their minds in the last three weeks, when we were facing a torrent of both threats and promises. If The Vow is not honoured Labour liars are finished and the No result is invalid. I think we should seek a declarator to that effect if that is the case. Brown gets that. Curran doesn’t. There she was, sniping away at the SNP for wanting devo max, whilst Brown, remarkably, was urging Labour to increase its offer. But all Curran could think about was devo-nano, because that would keep Labour MPs like her on an equal footing with English MPs, whereas Brown apparently grasped that Scottish Labour was unelectable without devo max, or at least, devo more. Brown grasped that EVEL could with some skill be swatted aside, but a Labour wipe-out in Scotland could not be reversed. Brown kept warning that countries could suddenly disintegrate, but Scottish Labour absolutely did not get that.
Found this on the YES Forres area Facebook site link to exopolitics.blogs.com
Huffington Post running a poll,
“Should there be a second referendum?”
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk
Approx 50-50 at the moment.
The SNP may well be in favour of EVEL in principle, but no way should they vote with the Tories on that as John Redmond suggests here.
link to youtu.be
They should stick to their principled position of not voting on English affairs, a) because ethically that is the right position (neutrality) and b) because politically it would be toxic if they did.
My posts are disappearing too….
It would be politically toxic for the SNP to support a Tory vote on EVEL as John Redmond suggests here:link to youtu.be
They should stick to their neutral stance of not voting on English only matters.
Ronnie Anderson 6.57pm
“SNP should withdraw from the Smith Commission”
BRILLIANT idea Ronnie, tell them to shove it!
Graeme Doig 6.49pm
I feel your pain Graeme, GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!
I’m having the same problem as Juteman.
One of my posts has disappeared and the other took 20 minutes to appear.
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they come to fight you, and then you win.” (M.K. Gandhi)
IMHO we are only being laughed at at the moment, humoured. WESTMINSTER doesn’t see or hear the train coming. Their arrogance and feelings of superiority will be their undoing and ultimate demise. They learned nothing from king Canute.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit.
Cax M. @ 6:57
Nope. The Smith commission is part of the political game, and the SG needs to play its part in that game, if only to be in a position to say”we tried that avenue without success”
Now, wings over Scotland is above politics, so we don’t need to play the political games.
What we need to come up with is direct action events that make it clear we are not going away.
schrodingers cat: i feel disenfranchied, cheated and very depressed watching this pish
Join the queue, brother.
‘Where has it all gone?’ – grousebeater.wordpress
ronald alexander mcdonald says:
“I’m convinced The “Vow” didn’t make much difference on the vote.”
While you may be correct, I would tend to say the opposite, though we really can’t be sure.
Every indication I’ve heard about private polling on the 5th Sept, from both sides, suggested Yes was on about 55% then.
Combined with the illegal info BT had about postal voting showing an insufficient lead to balance the polls, over the weekend of the 6th/7th they panicked. I can only assume high level meetings took place.
On the 8th, Brown started his promises, the MSM running dogs joined in using the magic buzz phrases ‘devo max’ and ‘home rule’, other BT figures also repeated them, top politicians cleared their diaries, and the Vow followed.
On the day Yes was on 45%.
My belief is BT put into action their pre planned last ditch tactic in a state of panic, and it had the desired effect.
@Jimbo
“They think our heads button up the back.”
Sadly, 55% of the population’s heads apparently do.
If there’s one thing we should have learned from the referendum, it’s that there are always a majority of people content to believe any promise, no matter how many times they get burned.
I think it’s kind of a mental defence mechanism most people have evolved in order to survive in an unfair society. Stick your head in the sand and constantly repeat to yourself “I am living in a utopian paradise!” While blocking out any evidence to the contrary including the fact that your “masters” are lying to you.
As far as I can tell, all the No voters I know of in this town have gone back to business as usual now that the referendum is over. Many of them weren’t into politics before that, and they’ve happily gone back to ignoring politics again, so they’ll only go with what the BBC and MSM is telling them, as usual.
That whole “The 45” thing is starting to grow on me more and more every day…
Starting to look like UDI really is our only option. Westminster will never willingly let us go with our resources intact, no matter how many Labour MPs get the boot at election time.
(Though I admit it’ll be very satisfying watching them fall. Probably the only pleasure I’ll ever get out of this whole mess!)
@arthur thomson
Since my TV station idea was apparently ignored earlier, maybe a newspaper is more doable…
I don’t know anything about how you’d set one up and get it circulating around the country though. Anyone else up for chipping in on that topic?
Can take it over to Off-Topic if we want to discuss it at length maybe. I’d hate to keep dragging the main threads off course too much.
I came across this on FB – don’t know how true it is but does make a lot of sense
” David Cameron has told the SNP to accept “defeat”.
Allow me to explain why this will not, and should not, happen.
It has emerged in the weeks since the referendum that Yes was on course to win approximately 7 days prior to the vote. A private Better Together poll put them on 52%. A private Labour poll put them on 54%. A private Yes poll put them on 52%. This victory was within established trends that many factored in when predicting a Yes victory.
As it became a statistical certainty that Scotland would vote Yes, nations around the world were preparing policy for the emergence of a new EU state. Ireland is one such nation where policy was being written to prepare for our emergence.
What happened next would cause concern to any forward-thinking individual who values democracy.
The UK Government, facing the loss of billions of pounds of tax revenue from Scottish oil and whisky, along with humiliation and forced acceptance of the Scottish Government’s currency terms, deployed an unethical three-pronged approach to interfere with the result:
1) A series of ‘vows’ were made which redefined what a No vote stood for. The Edinburgh Agreement 2012 stipulated that neither side is allowed to change what they are offering in the final 28 days before the vote. This is called ‘purdah’, and means people can consider, without interference, which offering they wish to vote for without goal posts being moved.
Yet they did it. Through a set of nonsense ‘Vows’, they completely altered what a No vote would “mean”. How did they do it? The Daily Record newspaper, on their front page, ‘demanded’ information on what devolution promises would be made, a calculated move which created a situation where purdah allowed a ‘response’ to a ‘request for information’. Their front page the next day featured the now-infamous signed ‘Vow’ on devolution, as a convenient “response”.
Next came Gordon Brown, who is not a member of Better Together or the UK Government, to make a series of promises which held no authority. Brown, little more than an ex-Prime Minister, is not covered by purdah rules. Exactly why the BBC granted Mr. Brown live uninterrupted broadcasts for several of these speeches, despite them being empty and toothless, I will leave you to ponder.
2) Scottish labour engaged in cold-calling registered voting pensioners to tell them that their state pension would cease if Yes won. This was an outright lie, however they did it anyway. After this, 75% of the 65+ demographic voted No.
Our pensions were last November declared to be the lowest in Europe. Since then, it has gone down further. Pensioners were frightened into voting for London to retain our country’s wealth.
3) The BBC published nothing but manufactured bad news for Yes for 5 days solid right up until voting day. Announcements from banks were manipulated to seem like branches would close and jobs would be lost, routine NHS reports were distorted to seem like we couldn’t afford it. No coverage of anything Yes related featured during this period from our state broadcaster, in clear yet care-free violation of their toothless charter.
Looking back now, post-voting statistics from Lord Ashcroft revealed that, of the No voting demographic, 9% of them decided on No within those final 7 days. Enough to prevent the previously-expected Yes result that most were expecting/predicting. The referendum outcome had been decisively changed in the final week through calculated malice and actions that made a mockery of the rules.
Sans this interference, Yes would most likely have won.
After the media spent 2 years calling Yes “uncertain” and making “Salmond has no Plan B” currency jokes, to watch them endorse the laughable back-of-a-fag-packet drivel that constituted their apparent “Plan A” was an absolute mockery of journalism. Their ‘Vows’ promised nothing, and they will deliver nothing. Not a single specific power was mentioned in any of it. Not one.
Gordon Brown’s speech contained the only promise with any substance, a federalised UK which would cost London billions. As mentioned, Brown has no way to actually deliver on this. Westminster now say 3 years is apparently the soonest that anything can be devolved.
Now, three weeks after the vote, newspapers confirm everything that Yes was ridiculed for: The NHS IS under threat, oil WILL last 120 years, the fellow who predicted less has been rewarded with fracking contracts that we are powerless to prevent, Asda has been awarded the humiliating benefit card contract, bombs are sent to reinforce our military strength while the disabled and elderly die in poverty and fear due to public service cuts.
I’ll be voting Yes in the next referendum that happens when the floating No voters realise they’ve been had and the nonsense promises that were made fail to materialise.
Until then, David Cameron can go feck himself and so can this so called union “
Everyone here angry tonight, which is understandable, but this is free ammo for our cause. Our real problem still lies with informing the Scottish public. Surely we must look to publishing a Metro style free paper. A weekly free paper issued on a thursday to engage commuters etc. Someone on another thread were quoting £4000 for 500,00 copies. W.O.S free weekly can keep the WBB momentum going and engage the middle ground!
If there was to be a second referendum due to the ‘Vow’ being a lie like most of the things stated by the unionist before the vote, does anyone know if this would have to be announced before the next Scottish election in 2016.
Yet another post vanished, waited 60 minutes so its catch up time…
1) Swami. I checked again. As of today Catalan leader Artur Mas has announced an unofficial poll on the same day in place of the vote the Madrid government called illegal. So there’s no-one feart over there! As I said, they’ll be free from Spain while Ms Sturgeon is still busying herself with her Westminster approved career.
2) Muttley 79. I am 100% for independence, which is more than can be said of Salmond or his SNP pretenders. The real obstacle to independence is the SNP, not Westminster. Westminster / MSM WILL play dirty, WILL distort and WILL sow doubt – the SNP should have been prepared. Would Strachan dare field a 7 man team with no keeper against England, and then blame a 15-0 pasting on the opposition “not playing fair?” That’s what Salmond effectively did with his ‘designed to lose’ campaign strategy. The independence campaign largely took off in that heady penultimate week in spite of the SNP not because of it.
Can’t remember his name but some Tory stood and said the “vow” wasn’t compulsory and that, the promises weren’t endorsed by him. I really think we’ll get shafted big time.
Peter Wishart I thought was very passionate, and he tried to swing the debate towards the vow but the unionist MP’s were having none of it.
I would add to Twenty14 above that the promises made by the Better together spokespersons are on record and do constitute an “offer” to the Scottish people if they voted no. “Let’s call it Devo Max” agreed by Alistair Darling on Reporting Scotland, “Devo Super Max” promised by George Galloway as Better Together spokesman on a BBC debate, and Gordon Brown’s various promises of Devo Max,Home Rule and Federalism, all on record.
My understanding of Scots Law is that you do not need a written contract. A verbal offer, accepted by the electorate, is enough.
The fact that the signed “Vow” contained nothing concrete is not important.
Are there any solicitors out there who can advise on how we sue for breach of contract? I’d value the financial loss in the billions.
Everyone here angry tonight, which is understandable, but this is free ammo for our cause. Our real problem still lies with informing the Scottish public. Surely we must look to publishing a Metro style free paper. A weekly free paper issued on a thursday to engage commuters etc. Someone on another thread were quoting £4000 for 500,00 copies. W.O.S free weekly can keep the WBB momentum going and engage the middle ground! Sorry if this has already posted, on the vodka tonight!
Twenty: Until then, David Cameron can go feck himself and so can this so called union
Thank you Twenty14 – the Referendum was conducted in a wholly fraudulant and anti-democratic manner by Westminster.
On that basis alone it ought to be rendered null and void, but then, to do that Westminster has to admit we do not live in a genuine democracy. They manipulate it.
Kid Spotlight at 7.08
Aye. Thaty’ll be why the SNP now has over 80,000 members and more that one out of every twenty voters in Argyll and Bute is now a member of SNP.
If phone calls were indeed made to pensioners, then surely they must have been made to quite a few YES-voting pensioners as well. So what was/is needed was either them or a relative to record the time of the conversation, the number if possible (although it can be traced) and a rough gist of what was said (does not need to be a recording)…. and a report made to the police about an attempt to intimidate a voter and to distort the democratic process.
Personally, everyone I speak to is absolutely flabbergasted that a section of the population could possibly believe in a last-minute promise by a terrified government — and enough to make them switch from a YES to a NO! It just doesn’t fit into my head.
@ Dave McEwan hill.
They are pretty impressive numbers Dave. Hope the new Yes shop premises in Dunoon help those numbers grow further.
Was speaking to an SNP councillor tonight trying to come up with some new ideas for Coatbridge to keep the momentum going. over 930 members now (140 isn pre referendum)
Gerry Parker 9.15pm
“What we need to come up with is direct action events that make it clear we are not going away.”
You’re right Gerry, the SNP would never withdraw from the Smith Commission anyway. It was wishful thinking on our part.
I am keen to know what plans you have, we are all primed and ready to go. Just point us in the right direction.
As mentioned – I copied from Fb ( think it was on a 45’rs page )but it seems to me the clearest and actually simplest way this referendum was stolen from us
It will be interesting to see how the self proclaimed “Peoples Chump”, the Daily Record will try and spin this latest Vow breaker.
I wonder if their politburo editor David Clegg will account for the Missing Amigos and A.Darling.
Anything less than full blown criticism will ensure sales figurs slump even lower.
Me thinks the spooks are still trying to shut us up – this site is running like a broken watch
If the Edinburgh Agreement was broken by redefining the outcome of a No vote after the deadline had past, and after people had already voted, would that not mean the result itself was effectively corrupt and therefore invalid.
I cannot believe that Westminster and the unionists can cheat a victory in plain view and get away with it.
Correct me if I’m wrong, the “vow” was a load of wind and pish; who knew, that’d be all of us and the lying bastards that came up with it.
Well, these promises, vows, debates on EVEL, whatever, we’ve got a real dog’s breakfast. Totally predictable.
I couldn’t pay any attention for too long. I was almost asleep long before Wm Hague had finished with his droning. One MP mentioned how much more Scotland has for public spending (I think he said £1600 – figure gets bigger every time it is brought up), eg tuition fees, free prescriptions, etc., which the Tory “contributor” said had been paid for with oil money and said it would have to stop some time. He didn’t mention that there was a good deal more paid in though. This subsidy story really needs to be laid to rest somehow – they all know, but, continue with the myth. Nothing sensible is going to come of this. We are being used – again.
@ Jimbo and Juteman. I have been experiencing the same problems with posting on Explorer especially. Posts can take about 20 mins to appear. Seems ok now on Chrome. Posting this at 22:28pm
Testing , 2 posts lost
@Caz M. 10:06. No worries Caz, my initial instinct was to do stuff like that too, but I decided that we have politicians to play the political games, so we should leave them to that.
I cannot imagine any political party coming out saying” Don’t pay your TV licence” they would be set upon by the other parties accusing them of flaunting the “rule of law” or beaten up (metaphorically) by the MSM.
However, what we can do as ordinary punters, is stop paying the licence. I don’t pay, because I don’t watch live television as it is broadcast, and I try and convince as many people that they should start doing the same thing. That way the BBC gets starved of funds. I don’t buy newspapers either, and this is spreading if you look at the latest circulation figures. I’ve even complained to my dentist that he shouldn’t really have a rag like the Herald or Scotsman lying about the surgery ( I think they get them for free, but that’s no excuse I told him)
I’ve started a wee group of wingers who will be using
http://www.writetothem.com
on a regular and co-ordinated basis to make sure MP’s and their staff are kept busy answering the concerns of their constituents, and if they don’t answer, write to them follows it up, and so will we with the constituency party ( Why is our elected representative not answering our questions).
I’ve another wee project in mind that I need the local branch of the SNP to support, that is to do some powerpoint presentations of sections of the Wee Blue Book and present them to all the new SNP members at sessions outwith the normal Branch meetings. If the new SNP members are to be retained and motivated, it’s not a branch meeting that will do that – they tend to be a bit formal, so some informal sessions are required for this.
I’m sure other people will have more ideas, including some direct action events which will bugger up the works. If they’re good, I’ll take part wholeheartedly.
I’m not going away. We’re not going away. They need to realise that.
Never mind the vow, anyone heard from the electoral commission about the campaign spending yet?
@ 2014
I read similar post a few weeks back .
It’s a good recap .
We all agree they ( establishment) lied and cheated to win .
I’m not referring to vote rigging .
We feel that 15/20% were swayed by the crap of the last 10 days.
For us to win next time we may still need to understand the core 30/40 % Naw s & why they were Naws otherwise we can never convert many from this group . I suspect there are many in the Professional Mid class types > not all
Ref conversation is still out there so many on here will now know some NO folks .
Is there any mileage in a wee survey set up here to report/ feedback on ” core” reasons for NO ?
Before anyone jumps , we are all aware of the Beeb / MSM / Labour / etc as the overal reason .
I bloody well don’t understand a NO vote and struggle to forgive . I am trying to recover !
Is a feedback type survey worth while in preparation ?
What’s the saying ” Fail to prepare is preparing to fail “.
As odd as it sounds I’m actually quite happy that no progress on the vow is being made.
Being realistic those who voted for independence last time are unlikely to change to NO and all the time Westminster spend proving how much they are against doing anything to help Scotland it will just drive more to, what I see as the ultimate aim of independence.
Let’s praise their uselessness; it could be better in the end.
this is out stitch up, now butt out!
link to archive.today
@Kid Spotlight
2) Muttley 79. I am 100% for independence, which is more than can be said of Salmond or his SNP pretenders. The real obstacle to independence is the SNP, not Westminster.
This is absolutely ridiculous, batshit crazy. You are seriously trying to argue that Salmond is not for independence? Bugger was right about you, you are a troll.
Why do the Unionist Political party’s keep insisting on the SNP to addmit defeat. The 45% wont addmit defeat,irrespective of any Political Leaders views, & its a big mistake for not taking the Scottish 45% + into account.
Today in the HoC has been a clear demonstration of how they regard Scotland,s People as SERVILE & thats only the Labour Party.
Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, absent from the most important debate for centurys,simple answer for that they have no answers to Devo he haw.
I,ve hear Constitution, Constitution, Constitution,all day long WHAT FUCKING CONSTITUTION, I hope I dont have CONSTIPATION in the length of time it takes for them to write a CONSTITUTION.
Anyone seen the Guardian’s supposedly funny cartoon?
@Kid Spotlight
As I said, they’ll be free from Spain while Ms Sturgeon is still busying herself with her Westminster approved career.
I missed this new cracker in your last post. Nicola Sturgeon has never been elected for Westminster. She has been elected for the SNP at Holyrood since 1999. What are you talking about?
Having watched a few hours of that shit this afternoon, I went out this evening to my first SNP meeting (Cumbernauld & Kilsyth) think they were quite overwhelmed at the amount of people. Good meeting, and great to hear some people really speaking out – including myself – about fracking. I told the MSP Jamie Hepburn, he needs to speak to his colleague Mr Biagi, as he was up on the Falkirk situation re. fracking – he looked at me a bit glaikit, but recovered himself, and said he would get himself up to speed, as he could see so many were animated at the meeting!
AND, something I didn’t know the local MP Greg McClymont, Labour, has been put into the Smith Commission – so that should be his undoing for us pushing him out of a job! He spoke in the debate this afternoon, and he is pretty intellectually challenged. Was a good meeting, with lots speaking up, and the party officials telling us about upcoming events, education etc.
@ Valerie.
Good news about the Cumbernauld and Kilsyth branch meeting.
I’m looking forward to the next Coatbridge one to see how many new members turn up. Branch meetings tend to be a bit formal and boring for me, I’m looking to get the political education officer on board for some informal meetings between branch meetings to build on the enthusiasm of the newer members.
only 7 months to go to the GE.
I watched for about an hour, but gave up.
Did they reach the bit where they offered beads and coloured glass, in return for our oil and whisky?
I just thought I should be prepared
Test 10.54pm
Is that you, Duggie? Troll along, Kid.
@ClanDonald
Yep, seems to be in the Norsewarrior, Edinburgh Dave, Duggie mould.
I’ve been seething with anger and struggling with feelings of hatred for the three stooges. I’m going through the anger process of which feelings of hatred are a normal part. next is mindfulness, meditation and prayer.
Spotty Kid: I am 100% for independence, which is more than can be said of Salmond or his SNP pretenders.
Nurse! Post flat-lined. Patient brain dead. Body bag, please. Incinerate.
O/T Entire pub (after mountain biking tonight) talking about the fracking zone reaching Bridge of Allan. The no voters amongst us looked a bit pale (not many, mountain bikers generally YES because of open access laws)
The combination of YESAlliance, newly politically engaged citizens, widespreasd mistrust of the BBC and the extraordinary cynical timing of the fracking license announcements is going to cause society to boil over.
My mtb group have never mentioned politics in the last decade.
#ScotlandIsChanging
STV just had Mundell on blah-blahing and it was pointed out that in the event of EVEL he would be a waste of space (I paraphrase!).
I chuckled a bit.
Like Labour then, as it works both ways. Why vote Tory of either colour if EVEL is actioned?
Here’s a thought.
I don’t think “the Vow” made any difference.
I got no hint whatsover that it changed anybody’s mind
And I think the three amigos visit probably backfired and didn’t help Better Together.
So
Lets imagine they knew they had won already because they knew the postal votes would provide 600,000 NO votes. They had seen to that.
They would need to have something however to explain the win as it was pretty obvious that on the day YES won handsomely.
So the Vow has been loudlygiven the accolade of saving the union
I suspect the continuous reference to the “silent majority” was from the same bag of tricks as was the continuous confidence of some of the big guns.
Did they produce false reasons for victory because it was achieved by fraud?
Why were Exit polls forbidden?
The percentasge of postal voting returns in some areas were virtually impossible to achieve
ronald alexander mcdonald,
“I’m convinced The “Vow” didn’t make much difference on the vote. I suspect it eased the conscious of some who voted no and who would have voted no anyway.”
I am of the same opinion and have said so before.
The vast majority of the elderly are proud of the British Empire, they are well looked after (thanks to the SNP government), they are not stupid, they are not easily frightened and they are selfish. They were never going to vote Yes.
Neither were 95% of the even more selfish middle class, including SNP voting Tories in the ‘SNP heartlands’.
We lost because we didn’t manage to convince enough of the working class. This includes people who are loyal Labour supporters, believe the BBC, are insecure, poor and vulnerable to threats by the scaremongerers, especially since these were presented as perfectly credible by the BBC.
The difficult thing now is to keep the new members in and interested.
Contact and then doing stuff is the only way. Social events and other fund raisers are more likely to keep members activated than branch meetings.
Im so excited about the tone of these proceedings! Isnt it wonderful how deliciously disrespectful these people are!?
Who needs to hand out fliers, argue and debate when these fine people are winning over the people for us?
I only thought that the baddies on tv could so efficiently set themselves up for an epic pounding by the good guys.
These gentleman have just made my job of persuading associates, friends and family a whole lot easier!
A big thumbs up to the Westminster gang from edinburgh!
If Redmond and his cronies get their way on EVAL, that is Labour finished at Westminster. Scottish Labour MPs (what’s left of them) will be second class parliamentarians who will never hold high office, as they will never be allowed to legislate on English bills, and their fortunes will decline in Scotland as they are rejected at the polls here for their role in shafting us. The Westminster game will be up for Labour in Scotland. Labour in the UK will also struggle to hold a majority in England, especially if sections of their core vote desert to UKIP.
Tragic for them. But then they did sup with the devil.
DMH: I don’t think “the Vow” made any difference. I got no hint whatsover that it changed anybody’s mind.
There you go. The opposite is all I’ve heard to date.
“I was voting Yes but more powers did it for me.”
“I was never convinced of the figures, but Devo-Max made sense.”
“Too much uncertainty with independence. Better the Union plus powers.”
“I was No, then Yes, then No on seeing Labour’s promises.”
“I was Yes all the way to the polling station then chickened out opting for the promises in the Vow.” [Sic – What promises?]
And so on, and so forth.
Those quotations are from working and middle-class types in Midlothian.
I’m coming to the same conclusion as a few others about The Vow not actually making much difference, other than to give people justification for voting for the option which, deep down, they knew was wrong. Let’s face it, when you give people a middle option in an opinion poll, they’ll usually go for it – but that’s not the same as actively wishing for it to happen.
I think it’s important we realise this, because I think one of the problems with the campaign was that too many of us (and I most certainly include myself here) were too eager to believe what we thought should be right, rather than what perhaps actually was.
It’s entirely possible that those who we assume voted No on the basis of more powers actually don’t take the slightest bit of notice at all when Westminster shafts us on more powers, and thus the mass outrage we’re banking on happening when the vow is proven to be a sham doesn’t materialise after all. People’s capacity for putting up with whatever shit you throw at them because it seems easier than making a change should not be underestimated.
The Vow is a very useful device for getting us further along the path to make that jump towards independence that little bit smaller, but we should be prepared for the possibility of people not really giving a toss when it turns out to be a load of pish.
@Kid Spotty, AGE 4,
Not on here kid, you wont wind anyone up with this nonsense
Now go to your room….
Dave McEwan Hill – exit polls weren’t actually forbidden, it’s just nobody paid to get them done. Incidentally, nobody paid to get exit polls done for the AV referendum either – I suppose the people who pay for these things don’t have any use for the data from one-off votes for some reason.
No conspiracy there, I’m afraid.
There is no united kingdom,
There is no labour party,
the thing that is called the labour party has played it’s
last card.
Watching those imbeciles in the the thing that is called “the scottish labour party” acting against the interests of scotland’s people is disgusting.
I have heard some saying that there are still some
good people in the labour party.. maybe..but if there are
they must be at least be starting to realize that this
sh*t is over.
It is time for them to do what i’ve waited years for,get
on board…independence is coming..stand up for scotland
or get washed away.
As for the others,maybe ukip will take you…or not.
Doug Daniel:
The Vow is a very useful device for getting us further along the path to make that jump towards independence that little bit smaller, but we should be prepared for the possibility of people not really giving a toss when it turns out to be a load of pish.
I have no doubt a great many voted for the Union without a second thought of the consequences, and did so because for them it was the natural thing to do. The status quo had served them well. But it would be unwise to assume all 55% of No’s were not swayed by the promise of independence in all but name.
A nervous pensioner believing Brown’s lies will vote No in the mistaken belief a No attracts more powers to solidify pension rights. That’s the leap of logic folk make.
The vast majority of the elderly are proud of the British Empire, they are well looked after (thanks to the SNP government), they are not stupid, they are not easily frightened and they are selfish. They were never going to vote Yes.
Neither were 95% of the even more selfish middle class, including SNP voting Tories in the ‘SNP heartlands’.
We lost because we didn’t manage to convince enough of the working class. This includes people who are loyal Labour supporters, believe the BBC, are insecure, poor and vulnerable to threats by the scaremongerers, especially since these were presented as perfectly credible by the BBC.
===================================================
So until the auld gits die off or something happens that effects them directly, such as fracking under the houses, Paying for visits to their GP, paying for their prescriptions, no meals on wheels, either get in a home or pay for private care, no more winter fuel payments, no more buss passes, etc etc, Now lets make sure that we don’t go soft and make allowances for the auld gits, they have to suffer like everyone else, make them pay for their decisions to vote NO and stand in the way of the youth. Voting NO means NO sympathy. Oh please don’t give me but some voted YES. They did and I can help someone near me who did vote YES. But when one who voted NO trips in the street I step over them and ignore.
Rock at 11.18
Don’t agree. There is lots of evidence that the more disadvantaged communities voted strongly YES but I can find very little evidence that the middle classes voted overwhelmingly no. And a significant section of the old people voted YES.
We did a large amount of canvassing and we made a point of canvassing middle class and higher areas to get balance and we got YES ahead in most of them.
The YES campaign had one of the world’s most sophisticated and accurate polling organisations on board and the were absolutely sure we had won by a significant margin. That is a fact.
The more one thinks the more that result stinks.
And don’t for one minute think that it couldn’t happen. Bankrupt Britain’s economy was facing a death threat.
Last few hours of our indiegogo crowdfunder. The iScot magazine still launches on 30th November. If you’d like to subscribe to a hardcopy mag, offer copy for publication consideration please feel free. Please say Yes !
link to indiegogo.com
As Lanarkist and others have pointed out, regardless of how people voted, we have to work together to create a new Scotland. A ote that went against our wishes must not stop us from building that better society and community anyway.
Valerie
I went to mine nearly 2 weeks back. Not huge, it was a boring agenda sent out no mention of indy or yes, but then they have a councillor by-election coming up. Lose it and the SNP NOC goes back to being a Labour NOC (North Ayrshire).
So not being one to stand at the back and say nothing, I kind of said I understood the circumstances but was looking forward to the YES type events to encourage a lot more participation. They have some planned. Branch membership more than trebled by then, and this in a place where the NO voters are queuing up for sheltered housing.
But there should be an active YES shop again soon anyway, as long as they can fund keeping it going. Plenty of volunteers, I was there the week before to see what like it was.
I know I posted before but seams appropriate on this thread .
My understanding many make a judgement/ decision , then look for facts to back up their decision and generally ignore facts that do not fit their resolve .
So many DK had a sub con decision but were looking for facts to enforce it . Hence the Vow can be spewed out now as their reason .
All the same I’ll never understand No Voters.
” Does not compute! “
I know I posted before but seams appropriate on this thread .
My understanding many make a judgement/ decision , then look for facts to back up their decision and generally ignore facts that do not fit their resolve .
So many DK had a sub con decision but were looking for facts to enforce it . Hence the Vow can be spewed out now as their reason .
All the same I’ll never understand No Voters.
” Does not compute! “
Grouse Beater: “I have no doubt a great many voted for the Union without a second thought of the consequences, and did so because for them it was the natural thing to do. The status quo had served them well. But it would be unwise to assume all 55% of No’s were not swayed by the promise of independence in all but name.”
Don’t worry, I’m not doing that. A good chunk of them would have voted No no matter what you told them (a similar number to those of us who would have voted Yes, no matter the consequences – I’ll certainly hold my hand up there.) But what I mean is we shouldn’t assume there is genuinely 25% of the population who are eager to see powers X, Y and Z transferred to Holyrood, and will revolt when it doesn’t happen.
Essentially, what I’m saying is we shouldn’t confuse excuses with reasons. For some, the promise of having their cake and eating it will indeed have been the reason for voting No; but we should be aware that for others, it may simply have been the excuse they needed to justify selling the rest of us down the river.
We fell into the (possible) trap of assuming Don’t Knows were basically saying “I want to vote Yes, but I’ve not been convinced yet”, but it may have been some were actually saying “I want to vote No, but I’m worried folk will think I’m a selfish prick”.
(And they’d be right…)
I would say there was about 350? there tonight. Obviously a LOT of new people. I’ll get a meme to post here to show the increase increase in SNP membership by area, cos I saw one somewhere. Jamie Hepburn was a just a bit staggered by the full hall I think. They mentioned social stuff to build a good team and fundraise, also mentioned their link to the Yes group locally, which I commended them for, and said we need to use that to build and persuade people to “come over”.
Although Hepburn was touting the SNP party lines, he did also say the situation is very fluid, and it was important we worked to May 2015, but also kept in mind we need to be ready just in case another referendum was called – he said who knows?
Dave / Doug
There are definitely two types of NO voters, those who don’t care about more powers, and those that do. I think some of those who do care are probably feeling like their brains and courage was underneath a severe attack of runnyitis, and don’t want to admit it. so they’re shrugging off the powers as though it doesn’t matter.
But some of these were posting not so long ago that they were thinking of voting NO because more powers were guaranteed, and that’s what they wanted all along.
I’m leaving them alone, because they have to get over themselves, before they can get back to being disgusted at others! That’s my take.
Yes, exit polls (I read before the ref) are apparently very expensive as they have to be carried out mostly face to face to be reliable, effectively one person per polling station, rather than over the phone which is less so. That’s the reason they’re only done in General Elections.
@ David, 11:24pm
These gentleman have just made my job of persuading associates, friends and family a whole lot easier!
A big thumbs up to the Westminster gang from edinburgh!
I hope your friends watch Westminster debates. From what I have gathered, few people watch politicians debating, or read newspapers other than headlines, or pay attention to how they are governed.
The Yes campaign gave us something people could focus upon and, I can tell you, many did not engage even in that most important of all debates. Now that we are back to Westminster running the agenda, there will be fewer who are interested and there will be many who simply take what they get with no prior knowledge of what’s coming. They might moan a bit, but, will shrug their shoulders and say, “but, what can you do?”.
Make no mistake, we have an uphill struggle getting information to people and getting them to pay attention and it will be up to us because we will be on our own again.
Let engagement commence!
I’ve just joined the SNP and like most wingers I will have no intentions of sitting and keeping quiet. We will not let this drop.
If the vow is not delivered in full, then we push for indy ref 2.
The gloves are now off and we scare the shit out of the selfish Nos with fracking etc.
These I’m alright Jacks haven’t a clue – they think they are a cut above but to Cameron et al they are just plebs to be used and abused.
We appeal to their base value of me me me
devo debate NO SHOWS
Cameron
Milliband
Clegg
Darling
Galloway
Grouse Beater,
“There you go. The opposite is all I’ve heard to date.”
“I was voting Yes but more powers did it for me.”
You are hearing liars speaking.
Here is a broad breakdown of the SNP membership increases by some areas, that they have no doubt gotten from the HQ – not very sophisticated but gives you some idea
link to dropbox.com
@liz, its amazing at least being among people that think and say things that you have, so it made me feel “normal”. Spoke to a few different people (I was on my own and didn’t know anybody, but made an effort) and the word selfish came up so many times. One lady who was really passionate about the fracking thing, and just itching to get going, said “my friends want me to be interested in the Kardashians, but when I mentioned fracking on their doorstep, they didn’t know what it meant and weren’t interested”
Dave McEwan Hill,
“Don’t agree. There is lots of evidence that the more disadvantaged communities voted strongly YES but I can find very little evidence that the middle classes voted overwhelmingly no. And a significant section of the old people voted YES.”
1. Loads did, and well done to them, but not enough to neutralise and exceed the middle class and elderly. Turnout in Glasgow was much lower than in other areas.
2. Plenty of evidence there – why did strong SNP areas vote No? That was the middle class, not the working class.
3. 30% of the old voted Yes, 70% voted No.
(I am not ruling out rigging but do not expect any ‘evidence’ to emerge – the british establishment has more than 300 years of experience in perfecting the black arts.)
We do have evidence. Lord Ashdown’s research, conducted immediately after the referendum, showed that 25% of the NO voters believed that more powers would be devolved if they voted NO. That equates to 500,000 votes.
If more powers are not devolved then the referendum is a sham and should be declared null and void. More responsibilities are not the same as more powers.
The entity that should declare it null and void is the Scottish Parliament. I would support it in that case.
James Caithness,
“So until the auld gits die off”
I am not wishing anyone’s death, but basically yes, the British Empire will end and Scotland will become independent then.
Or hopefully earlier if we manage to get 70% or more of the younger, working class to vote Yes.
With all respect to the 30% elderly who did vote Yes and have been independence supporters for decades.
Capella,
“We do have evidence. Lord Ashdown’s research, conducted immediately after the referendum, showed that 25% of the NO voters believed that more powers would be devolved if they voted NO. That equates to 500,000 votes.”
The vast majority of them are lying and using it as an excuse.
More powers promised during the last week of a three year campaign? After refusing a more powers option, all the three parties had already come up with proposals of almost no more meaningful powers.
Are these 25% indeed that stupid to believe vague promises of jam tomorrow? I think they are liars.
Otherwise expect major demonstrations in our streets after today’s ‘more powers for England debate’ where those who made the ‘vow’ to the Scottish people were absent.
A very strange thing at the SNP branch meeting tonight. They said – the longstanding members – that they personally knew of many SNP members, party faithful, that voted No. I find this bewildering, given that independence is the whole raison d’etre of the SNP. They said these people will just come back and vote SNP in 2015, so there was no need to worry about them!
To Westminster, IndyRef was about the oil.
Today, in Westminster, not once was it mentioned.
Their need of the oil is so great, they are afraid to even speak about it, lest even the use of the word might put at risk their grip on it.
It’s almost as if the very future of England depends on it.
And they were going to gamble their future in a referendum for Scottish Independence ? Really?
With the oil set to last for at least another hundred years, the Referendum was designed to SECURE their future.
Not only was it never going to be a Yes result,
It never WILL be a Yes result.
And so we now know that Independence for Scotland can only happen one way –
and it won’t be by voting.
And so not only must we wake up,
we must also wisen up.
And toughen up.
Scotland’s future depends on it.
@Arthur Thomson
The Scottish Independent is a newspaper in progress… worth a look.
link to facebook.com
Oddly enough, oil did get a mention. From a backbench Tory MP, who – and I kid you not – clearly acknowledged that Scotland pays its way in the union, in part through oil revenues. It was in context of the future of Barnett. But he said it without reservation!
@Rock
These people are not liars. The polls 2 weeks before the vote showed YES in the lead with the momentum behind them. People had already rejected Devo Nano when YES was in the majority before the vote. Then the 3 amigos came north and promised devo max. Then the vote swung back to NO. Only the new promise of Devo Max in the last few days secured a NO vote.
This is a material fact. A promise is a contract.
domhnall ruadh says:
15 October, 2014 at 1:20 am
Oddly enough, oil did get a mention.
Thank you for that – I must have fallen asleep at that point!
Mmm, well the ScotGov is in charge of the Referendum (Section 30) which expires 31 Dec. Smith outline agreement to be sealed by the end of November. No agreement, ScotGov nullifies referendum on basis of VOW Wed 3rd Dec, emergency ref rerun called for Tuesday 30th December, result known Hogmanay, Happy New Year!
Naaahhh
Valerie
Ashcroft has 14% of the SNP voters voting NO, and that’s lower than the last polls which showed 16% or even 20% intended to vote NO. A lot of people voted SNP for Holyrood becaue they actually liked what they were doing there! Does it make sense? Mmm, not to me. But then NO doesn’t make sense to me either, even though I’ve talked to a lot of NO voters and understood their reasons.
Valerie says:15 October, 2014 at 1:00 am
A very strange thing at the SNP branch meeting tonight. They said – the longstanding members – that they personally knew of many SNP members, party faithful, that voted No.
Many SNP members voted No! Members? Heaven help us.
What’s the point of being a member if you’re a No voter.
What’s the point of continuing to be a member if you’re No.
These ‘members’ ought to be engaged with and confirmation of their vote sought. If true, then they should really be expelled from the SNP, and not necessarily politely.
Such madness is not something that should be prolonged.
The final week was a classic carrot/stick approach.
The promises of SIGNIFICANT powers, and the threats from all the banks and shops.
No doubt that each one swung at least 5% of voters back to a No vote. Possibly more because I expected a big momentum effect from the poll showing us in the lead.
If we do get another referendum in a few years, any promises of devo-max will be useless if we get devo-nano now.
BUT the threats on the pound would happen all over again. The currency question really hurt us, and we will need a better approach.
It was no good just expecting the London parties to be reasonable on a currency zone, even although that would have been beneficial for the UK also, and the likely outcome.
The problem was you could not prove that 100%.
You then had the Kevin Bridges ‘smackeroonies’ image all over the internet during the last week.
I believe he actually supported a YES vote, but you wouldn’t have known it from that. It was pretty funny, but it reinforced a negative perception and was a gift to NO supporters who spread it all over facebook..
I realise it’s part of the Scottish sense of humour to take the piss out of ourselves, but the problem is plenty of people actually believe it, with our history of cringe mentality.
Can you imagine people in other countries like Norway or Sweden laughing at themselves, going ‘imagine if we had to run our own currency… it would be like mickey mouse money! We’re so shit.. lol”
FFS, why can’t we take the piss out of ourselves AFTER we are independent..
Valerie, which branch are you a member of?
Rev can we get all these clips on to a DVD and put them through every door in scotland? Crowdfund it.
From the ScotCen (Curtice) for 2012, compared to Ashcroft immediately after the Ref, support for Indy by age group:
Age . . 2012 2014
18-24 – 31% 51% (inc 16-17 in Ashcroft)
25-34 – 27% 59%
35-44 – 27% 53%
45-54 – 25% 52%
55-64 – 20% 43%
65+ . – 14% 27%
domhnal ruadh
David Mowat, Conservative MP for Warrington South.
Drag the cursor to 18.38.19. He only speaks for the set 2 minutes, but yes he does…
‘clearly acknowledged that Scotland pays its way in the union, in part through oil revenues. It was in context of the future of Barnett. But he said it without reservation!’
“…by the way, this is not a subsidy to Scotland, I concede…readily, that the barnett formula, historically has been paid for by the proceeds of Scottish oil”
link to parliamentlive.tv
K1
I watched a few of the Scottish questions sessions in the past, and some others, perhaps the odd select committee on the parliament channel months ago, and the irony is that some of the English Conservatives were the most honest. They actually seemed to be genuinely interested. Same even in the uncorrected evidence from the SACs. Very strange. Worst as you’d expect were the Scottish Labour MPs.
There’s been a lot of discussion recently, regarding the future of the movement, and in particular the name.
I think Yes should be retained, as it is a tremendously positive message. Some have stated that the retention of Yes could alienate some soft No voters, but I think otherwise.
We are still campaigning for the benefit of all of the people of Scotland, so we could state that we are campaigning for you, for everyone, for Scotland.
You
Everyone
Scotland
That way, we keep Yes, the brand.
On another note, I’ve been trying to compile a list of Yes shops, with addresses and contact numbers or email addresses, so I would be most grateful if people could send me the details of these shops, or soon-to-be shops. Once completed, I would make the list available to anyone that wants a copy.
The details can be emailed to marcomcginty [at] yahoo [dot] co [dot] uk
Many thanks
I don’t have a problem with EVEL (English votes for English Laws). I have always felt that Tony B Liar only agreed to devolution for one of two reasons. It was either a “Thank You” to the Scottish Labour vote for getting him into Number Ten, or a sop to shut-up the likes of Donald Dewar.
Like most hurriedly-pushed-through laws, it wasn’t thought-through properly; the West Lothian Question was already known about, but, it wasn’t considered. So, what we ended up with was in fact – a “Democrativ Deficit” in England.
Of course, it helps that so-many of our English neighbours do not know, or care, where ‘The United Kingdom’ ends and ‘England’ begins.
There is also the effect of First Past The Post (FPTP). Since the re-establishment of the Scottish Parliament, we Scottish voters have become somewhat sophisticated. There is strong anectdotal evidence of people who will vote SNP at Holyrood elections, but Labour at Westminster ones – on the basis: the SNP will best represent them on purely Scottish issues, while the Labour Party will best represent them on “national” and “international” issues.
This, of course, plays right into the hands of the likes of Crash Gordon in, such a stand immediately sees Scotland as not being a nation.
This is an attitude we in the Yes movement HAVE to change. Of course, it helps that, by their conduct in the referendum campaign, the Scottish branch office of Labour clearly shwoed, they are merely Red Tories.
We should be stressing this at every turn.
I recall reading that, post-Bannockburn, in 1314, it took a further 14 years for the threat from England to finally subside. It never quite went away, but, apparently – and I have forgotten most of my Scottish history twixt 1314 and 1603 – apart from when Henry VII got stroppy during the “Rough Wooing”, England pretty-much left us alone.
Therefore, while there will be no armed threat to Scotland, we have to recognise, it will probably take us some years to get another Referendum and turn around 45/55. Of course, as we heard in the Commons yesterday – we can expect Britannia to waive the rules before then.
So, we have to, I feel, have a two-part plan going forward. Certainly, Independence is the Holy Grail, but, to get there we may have to, in the short term, push for Devo-Max, or, perhaps, a Federal UK.
Westminster will not go for either of these easily. The inhabitants of that bubble – Blue, Yellow or Red Tories, still see that place as “the Imperial Parliament”, the font of all power. OK, the Red and Blue Tories change sides every general election or so. It costs them little, this “Mother of Parliaments” has been operating for so long, they know, if they are condemned to life on the Opposition benches – the make a lot of noise, but, if anything they really care about is changed while they are in Opposition – they can change it back when they are in Government.
A federal UK doesn’t figure in their calculations. We have to change this, which means, doing away with FPTP and bringing-in Holyrood-style proportional representation. This will be a hard sell, but, perhaps if we point-out, under FPTP the Blue Tories are an irrelevence in Scotland, but, under Holyrood’s pr voting, they have a presence in that chamber.
We also, I feel, need to, either as a Yes Alliance or via the SNP, make friends in England. I appreciate the mainstream media has done rather a good job in blackening some of the alternative political movements in England as “xenophobes” and “racists”. In the case of the BNP and some others on the right of the political spectrum, this is undoubtedly correct, and we must steer clear of them.
But, surely we in the Yes movement should be supporting and encouraging the likes of the Campaign for an English Parliament, as a means of bringing about Devo-Max or a Federal UK, as a stepping stone to full independence; while still pushing the independence message at every turn up here.
This twin-track approach just might work.
It is either that, or, we keep causing a stooshie on the sidelines, Westminster keeps ignoring us and treating us badly, until, the day after the last barrel of Scottish oil comes ashore – we get Independence.
Westminster will not give it to us voluntarily before then.
Rock: You are hearing liars speaking.
An unwarranted brutal judgment. I think they’re people who held no political view one way or the other. Come deadline day, they chose what they saw as the less risky decision. I meet too, a good many hard No’s unwilling to discuss why they are against autonomy.
Valerie says:
15 October, 2014 at 12:26 am
The Scotland figure is 312% not 212%
James Caithness says
“So until the auld gits die off or something happens that effects them directly, such as fracking under the houses, Paying for visits to their GP, paying for their prescriptions, no meals on wheels, either get in a home or pay for private care, no more winter fuel payments, no more buss passes, etc etc, Now lets make sure that we don’t go soft and make allowances for the auld gits, they have to suffer like everyone else, make them pay for their decisions to vote NO and stand in the way of the youth. Voting NO means NO sympathy. Oh please don’t give me but some voted YES. They did and I can help someone near me who did vote YES. But when one who voted NO trips in the street I step over them and ignore.”
Wow
and then the Tories win, as we have just turned into the kind of people the Tories worship ,
cold
selfish
heartless
xenophobic
tribal
ignorant
we’d fit right in in the Tory heartlands!
Brown needed the Oil revenues for illegal wars and tax evasion. What a load of crooks.
English Laws for English votes. Independence for Scotland. YES.
Normal service is resumed at the BBC when we are told
“Researchers have published a map of child poverty in Scotland claiming(?) it shows (shocking) levels of hardship around the country, with one in every five children here living in poverty,
Glasgow is the worst affected of all local authority areas with the problem affecting one third of all youngsters”,
The situation is only slightly better on Clackmannanshire, Dundee, Inverclyde, and North Ayrshire,
I wonder how long they sat on that little gem before reporting it?
For anyone who cares to check it was research done by staff at Loughborough university, it would be interesting to find out WHEN that research was actually published.
Would I be right in saying subliminal messaging is illegal?
So why then @ 7.20 this morning did I rewind my sky+ to see (clearly) a union flag appear on the screen while the pictures changed while the reporter was talking about the drop in world oil prices, the pictures were of oil rigs, changing into pictures of a refinery and clearly but fleetingly a union flag appears for a millisecond.
Black arts at work.
@ Socrates MacSporran
” I have always felt that Tony B Liar only agreed to devolution for one of two reasons. It was either a “Thank You” to the Scottish Labour vote for getting him into Number Ten, or a sop to shut-up the likes of Donald Dewar.
In fact it was neither.
The truth, Socrates, is that the EU put pressure on Blair, due to the democratic deficit in the UK, to introduce Devolution to Scotland. Neither Blair nor Gordon Brown were ever in favour of devolution but in spite of this, Labour constantly claim for themselves responsibility for doing so. Their hypocrisy is boundless.
Manandboy says
“The truth, Socrates, is that the EU put pressure on Blair, due to the democratic deficit in the UK, to introduce Devolution to Scotland”
I’ve heard that as well,
Im just not sure its true though.
BBC Scotland GMS doing their best to protect their Unionist political wing, Scottish Labour. They have not interviewed one Scottish Labour MP about yesterdays debate.
Where is Brown, Darling, Alexander, Curran.
I have emailed Douglas Alexander about his no-show yesterday. He wasn’t the only one not to turn up testerday, where was Darling?
He was the one who said that he would fast track the bill for more powers through Westminster. How can you fast track anything if you are not even in the bloody building. GRRRRRRR!
I get angry just writing about these bar stewards.
A favourite tactic of BBC Scotland, don’t report anything that will have a negative effect on Scottish Labour.
I saw Cameron’s speech on the 19th and thought this is exactly what I thought would happen. What I think we have to do now is ensure that every NO voter knows that this was always about what was best for Westminster and ask exactly how they feel now?
If they tell you that this wasn’t what they wanted and stuck with the promise of “The Vow” then we might be able to salvage another vote in favour of a independence minded vote to stand as and MP. If there’s another indyref then we can’t allow for people to forget this.
@caz-m
That’s ok, we’ll tell people what went on and what a shower of arrogant, condescending and self serving pricks they all were.
Valerie says:
“…..many SNP members, party faithful, that voted No………They said these people will just come back and vote SNP in 2015, so there was no need to worry about them!”
Some SNP supporters will have voted No, but members!? If true, makes you wonder what some people are about!
But, I don’t like the attitude of ‘no need to worry’! I have just joined the SNP and that move by myself is just a means to end, Independence. Similarly, getting SNP politicians elected is just a means to the same end. I haven’t tribal loyalty to any political party. Independence should matter first and foremost to the SNP, party and members.
The pro-independence parties should now just get on with the job of ensuring a majority of MP’s seats in Scotland are won by their candidates in 2015 and a majority of MSP’s seats at Holyrood are won by their candidates in 2016, thereby removing Westminster’s mandate to rule Scotland, then declare UDI during the Summer of 2015.
@
caz-m
Scottish Labour, the political wing of BBC Scotland … Very good.
Suppose we could say ….. BBC Scotland the official media voice of Scottish Labour.
Seems like it.
@john king
Manandboy says
“The truth, Socrates, is that the EU put pressure on Blair, due to the democratic deficit in the UK, to introduce Devolution to Scotland”
I’ve heard that as well,
Im just not sure its true though.
Tell me John, why are you ‘not sure’.
Perhaps it’s because you choose to listen to the
Red Tory version of history
while ignoring the documentary evidence.
Please read The Scotland-UN Committee report below at
link to electricscotland.com
Then come back here and tell us all you’re still not sure.
Sigh, it’s not a holiday I need – it’s a bloody time machine.
Fast forward 10 years please.
I haven’t saw the Daily Record front page this morning, but I am guessing it will be along the lines of,
“Where is the VOW now Brown Cow”,
This headline reflects the Daily Record’s sense of humour. They do like writing the odd hilarious headline. (THE VOW)
Yes, the political editor of the Record, David Clegg, will leave no stone unturned as he hunts down Gordon Brown to find out what exactly happened to the “VOW” yesterday.
As for approaching people to change their minds in any upcoming vote…
… that’s a hard one.
Had a brief read through on this from some posters above. I suppose your approach would depend on the persons given reason for voting no. I have no problem with shaming those who voted out of pure selfishness and comfort. They need shaming IMO.
They tend to fall into the ‘proud Scot but’ category. Those fuckers were protecting themselves and their own wee world as they saw it. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it mentality. All they required was an excuse to vote no and hung on to any bullshit released by the meeja as gospel. These people do require to have the consequences of their vote thrown in their face.
Those who voted no because they really didn’t know the issues, were confused or made to feel fearful and confused need to be won over. Yes, they did have faint hearts and yes they probably did hang onto old media habits, or retained some trust in the system, but I’m sure that by now even they must have sussed that all is not well in Scotland in the aftermath of the vote. There’s ground to be made there and events will help as the next couple of years unfold. You need to make the fearful angry IMO. Angry that they were made to feel fearful and angry that they were duped.
Then of course you have your blinkered hard line flag wavers. No interest there whatsoever, walk on by. They don’t believe in Scotland as a country anyway so don’t even attempt to get past their first answer.
I don’t give a flying fuck what WM or indeed their northern franchises say in Holyrood. Getting back in the box is not an option. We do that and they’ll shit on us from a great height and suck the country dry like the leeches they are. It ain’t over till we say it is and so long as debacles like that ‘debate’ yesterday are still the norm where Scotland is concerned, then there is still work to do and an argument to be settled. Far as I’m concerned, it’ll be settled when we see a truly representative, fully empowered and mandated government sitting in Holyrood and not before.
Hi all came into work to a e-mail from my very pro indy boss. Thought I would share it. Have a look and share if you want. This video should by shown at the start of every political event in every political party.
This gives me a vision of what politics should be about. Gets you thinking of what needs to change in the current antiquated system that is alien and unwelcoming to many and in particular gives ideas on how to capture the current need for change that was so evident throughout the referendum.
link to youtu.be
Its 4 minuets long and well worth a look.
P.S. first attempt at sharing a link on this forum so not sure if it will work. If not just copy link and put in search bar and away you go.
Cheers all
galamcennalath
Looking at it another way though, from Ashcroft 14% of SNP voters (perhaps members) voted NO, but the memberhsip has more than trebled since then, so now it’s less than 5% of the membership!
link to parliamentlive.tv
at 18:40:42
Yesterday at Westminster, Margaret Curran paying tribute to Gordon Brown for ” electrifying the Referendum campaign “.
Pure Curran-speak from the Red Tory world of fictional politics, in which ‘electrifying’ means he told some huge lies in the mass lobotomy by TV of several hundred thousand pensioners to secure a No result.
She’ll be paying tribute to the gravy train soon after she gets the heave from the voters in Glasgow’s east end.
But, “Before entering the Scottish Parliament Margaret was a lecturer in community education at the University of Strathclyde and also spent time as a community worker.”,
so she’ll maybe go back to that, except the money won’t be the same so mibbies naw.
Do have a look at Margaret’s web site
link to margaretcurran.org
The site is “Promoted by and on behalf of the Labour Party at One Brewer’s Green, London SW1H 0RH” – a clue to another Labour myth viz. ‘ Scottish’ Labour.
There’s only ONE Labour Party –
it’s made in London – fae red unionists.
I checked out previous sales of the Daily Record on Wiki.
Some amazing figures in sales of the Record and other newspapers.
Daily Record 1992 daily sales – 755,026
Sunday Mail 1997 Sunday sales – 818,081
Glasgow Herald 1992 daily sales – 121,297
link to en.wikipedia.org
Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
I wonder what the Daily Record sales are today, and surely David Clegg must be getting worried now about his own job, and not just his buddies in Scottish Labour.
I would be glad to see the back of the lot of them.
@ yesindyref2,
Looking at it another way though, from Ashcroft 14% of SNP voters (perhaps members) voted NO,
More likely that these people have more recently voted SNP, but previously voted mainly for other parties like the Lib Dems & Labour. Some people do not always vote for the same candidate or party. The Lib Dems are used to this but labour less so.
I could only manage an hour watching this. Shocking to see the disdain with which the 3 main party leaders treated scotland by their absence.
Watched most of the debate yesterday, about 2hours in it was still all about EVEL and when one SNP Member dared to ask when Devolution for Scotland was going to be mentioned as that was supposed to be the main item on the agenda Speaker Bercow gave a master class in patronising sarcasm suggesting the SMP was being “unstatesmanlike” and should take lessons from Hague whom he had interrupted.
Bravo Macart, I think that is an excellent point and one that needs making on here all of the time, that until we have a fully mandated Parliament voted for and independent of Westminster we will not stop fighting.
Today I read the commenting rules on the blog
and was horrified to read about my posting mistakes.
My face is still red after an hour or so!
So please, in order to make life a little easier for Stu,
whom we are SO lucky to have,
and to prevent others from being a prat like me,
I beseech those of you who have NOT read the rules,
please do so.
And you know what, when I did all that Stu said, my first post got through instantly.
Interesting to note that RS don’t have a follow up phone-in today after the sham at wm yesterday.
I presumed the programme yesterday was because of the HoC debate and without any follow up today is rendered pointless.
Well done ebc scotlandshire. Consistent in your unrelenting dark arts performance.
@Oneironaut:
If there’s one thing we should have learned from the referendum, it’s that there are always a majority of people content to believe any promise, no matter how many times they get burned.
There is a French saying that goes like this: “Promises bind only those that believe in them”.
@Valérie:
they personally knew of many SNP members, party faithful, that voted No. I find this bewildering, given that independence is the whole raison d’etre of the SNP.
Hopefully, people are not machines. They can retain their free will, whatever party they join. I am very happy the SNP is not a totalitarian machine promoting a unique way of thinking. If the SNP is to be representative of the Scottish population, then we must admit and tolerate that even inside it, some people can disagree–for good or bad reasons. In the latter case, then it is up to ”us” to convince them they’re wrong. (I write ”us” with “” because, despite having joined the SNP myself, I cannot take an active part in Scotland affairs)
@Manandboy:
The truth, Socrates, is that the EU put pressure on Blair, due to the democratic deficit in the UK, to introduce Devolution to Scotland.
I would not believe this. EU seldom mingles into private state business, except when it comes to budget and finance. Does this EU intervened on the Catalonia referendum?
Valerie says:15 October, 2014 at 1:00 am
“A very strange thing at the SNP branch meeting tonight. They said – the longstanding members – that they personally knew of many SNP members, party faithful, that voted No.
Many SNP members voted No!”
Know what. I don’t believe a word of that
We can’t back down Helena, not for an instant. We do? We allow them the comfort of feeling job done and they’ll walk all over the people with impunity. We need them to feel their job is on the line every single day and that they should never take the electorate for granted.
Plain fact is, if we stay motivated, their job and their establishment is still on the line.
@manandboy
Somebody told me the other day, that Ikea flatpack furniture comes with assembly instructions.
I don’t believe it either.
Can I post yet Rev?
The way I see it, it’s not so much that the result was close, so therefore we should carry on. It’s more the result was a ‘Yes’ which was stolen from us, and justice will not be done until the result is put right.
Nice one, I can now post
This whole debate is a sham, Gordon Brown is playing a blinder for Westminster, he is part of the same club as Cameron and co, trying to paint Cameron as bad is a joke,
Labour has forever burned their boats in Scotland, they are no better than the Tory Party, roll on the next GE when we can target every last one of them.
On the subject of the establishment, I told you Owen Jones was a toerag. He is not the new Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy.
Jones concludes ‘The Establishment’ with this comment:
‘I want to extend a special thanks to The Guardian and all the brilliant people there for giving me a platform to articulate my beliefs, and to The Independent for having originally taken me on and been so supportive.’ (p.783)
link to medialens.org
I was able to post but they have now gone and I can no loger post again :-0, fuck it I give up.
@John King – don’t liken me to a tory.
These NO voters the onus is on them to realise what they did on the 18th Sept. And anything thing that works against them because of their vote is on them. I will have no sympathy for them. You know whay because decent people who voted YES have been denied their future because of these selfish cowardly people.
So John King do not liken me to a stinking tory again or we will spend a lot of time throwing insults at each other for a long time to come.
Am I alone in my utter frustration at SNP politicians continually praising the referendum, and how wonderful it was. It wasn’t wonderful, it was a fraud, the Edinburgh agreement was repeatedly broken, the BBC actively funded (and still fund with license fee money) the CBI who campaigned against independence, the entire UK media was wholly biased against independence, and the corrupt NO campaign was such that Scots were misled, deceived, lied to, threatened and bullied into voting NO.
Please, SNP (of which btw I am a long standing member) do tell me what is so freaking wonderful about that. You ought to be demanding a re-run, and complaining, not shouting from the rooftops about how it was the pinnacle of democratic participation, FFS.
GGGrrrr. Having an angry day today. We should not take our foot off Westminster’s neck for one second.
This was a local councillor saying that party faithful voted No, and they were saying that going into the polling station.
@Aulda – not saying folks shouldn’t have free will! But I said I was bewildered, at being party faithful working towards that big day for many years, and then voting No.
It may be as simple as they have the word Scottish in their title,or they believe they are a good party, with good people, but I still find it strange when they key issue for their existence comes up, you baulk, and remove your support.
Congrats to Nicola Sturgeon : New Leader of SNP and first woman First Minister of Scotland.
All Scots proud ( Proud Scots but … methinks Not so !)
Oh and lets not forget Alex Salmond; is he leaving politics ? Remember No voting mugs and other various Loyalist / Unionist Adjutunts everywhere.
A phrase uttered long ago, far far away …
“I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine”
You better believe it, “beware the wounded political animal unleashed from its bonds of the frontline”
Expect us
link to tinyurl.com
I heard on Radio Scotland this morning that they’re going to do some kind of ‘special’ on that awful arch-unionist Jackie Bird as she has apparently been on the go on BBC Scotland for 25 years.
Good Grief! That woman has been spouting her British shit for a quarter of a century. No wonder 55% of us have been brainwashed into voting No.
One of the biggest disappointments for me regarding the No vote was that we weren’t going to be able to take a proverbial sledge hammer to Radio Scotland and Reporting Scotland and smash those propaganda machines to smithereens and throw out their awful staff including the execrable Bird.
caz-m
I think the Record is now down at around the 200,000 mark. There was a time when the Record was everywhere
@schrodingers cat says: 14 October, 2014 at 8:10 pm:
“i feel disenfranchied, cheated and very depressed watching this pish.”
As I keep harping on about, the reality of the situation is exactly as David Mundell described when he claimed, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom”.
This is plainly how that situation will remain as long as that renamed United Kingdom parliament at Westminster is, the unelected as such, de facto parliament of England. This is the sole impediment to the real United Kingdom as formed in 1706/7 by the Treaty of Union ever existing as anything like a proper democratic and just legislation.
It is at present operating as the de facto parliament of England and it legislates for England passing bills for England then adds on wee codicils at the end of the English bills to accommodate conditions and laws of Scotland, Wales & N.I.
It finances itself as the United Kingdom directly with United Kingdom treasury funding and, by use of Barnett Consequentials, forces Scotland, Wales & N.I. funding to be constrained in accordance with what is spent in England. Except, that is, when they cheat and fund, (mainly London infrastructure), from United Kingdom sources that carry no Barnett Consequentials.
Until we seekers for Scottish independence accept this is the reality we are jousting at windmills and not tackling the problem head on. The real problem being that Westminster is the de facto parliament of England and this idiotic debate we have just watched has made that fact abundantly clear. The final step to exclude properly elected Scottish, Welsh and N.Irish members from voting upon Westminster Parliament matters that the unelected Parliament of England reserves for itself.
It is what I highlighted before the referendum. That was they were intent upon taking the final step to complete the job of making England the master race devolving English powers to Scotland and then they could abolish the three devolved parliaments and that de facto parliament of England will assumed full sovereignty over us all.
@Indyref2 thanks for the figure of 14% SNP members voting No. Last night when I heard this, think my jaw was hitting the floor. I’ve never been in a party before and was taken aback at members voting No. I spoke a fair bit at the meeting, so didn’t want to start a spat at my first meeting with loads of new members there.
I’m not the compliant type, hence not being a part of clubs etc. But I do have a bit of an issue with this because my next question would have been, so what we’re these party faithful saying on the doorstep, and am I wasting my time here if parts of the branch are briefing against a major plank? This isn’t a difference of opinion on how voting works, or the mechanics of raising an issue, it’s why they exist!
Many vote Snp because they like a left of centre party running Scotland within the Union
As for actual SNP members voting NO
1.they maybe want a federal union or a gradual way to independence
@John King – Appeasing ppl does not work. If someone does wrong tell them, let them know the consequences of their actions, they deserve no sympathy. Being the selfish kind of people when things happen around them that affect them they will then see those consequences. They do not deserve a reassuring arm put around their shoulder they need telling they brought it on themselves.
Manandboy, John is right to be doubtful about this story that the EU put pressure on Blair to grant devolution to Scotland. If you look at the “Scotland-UN committee” thing in detail, you’ll see that the correspondence they present is entirely one-sided – their side. Putting it harshly, they appear to have lodged their own letters and some holiday snaps with the National Library.
The documentation reveals a small self-appointed group making representations to the EU and/or the UN at various levels. The only correspondence from the other side consists of formal acknowledgements of receipt of some of the letters and documents. I tried quite hard some years ago to find evidence that these representations had had any influence on the EU (or the UN) and could find none.
As AuldA says, it’s not in the EU’s nature to behave like this, and there’s no evidence at all that they did.
@Robert Louis. 10 09 am.
You are not alone Robert. The whole thing was bad from start to finish apart from when the people themselves took to the streets with their saltires.
When you ask someone to make a judgement on anything you have to supply them with all available facts or they aren’t able to make a valued judgement.
That referendum was a farce in that the people were lied to constantly. How could they possibly judge how to vote?
I have almost gone hoarse sometimes yelling at the radio when I hear an SNP bigwig going on about how we ”accept the result”. What pish! Can they not just for once say that it was a farce because the people weren’t given the correct facts by the unionists and were lied to throughout the whole campaign so the result was meaningless?
We now have over 80,000 members apparently. What difference will that make if we don’t have leaders that will tell it as it really is: That the British State is corrupt and stinks!
@ James Caithness
Im with you on the grey voters James; disgusted by the 70% utterly selfish gits in that category (distant relatives included). Praise to those 30% elderly YES most were out campaigning though so we know them personally.
Have to say though I’ve spent most of my time owning up and apologising to our maginificent younger voters whom I believed (since the MSM & pollsters were Telling us) were going to vote mega No. (They got that way wrong).
So please all; take the time and go out of your way to praise Scotlands young folk. They are our future, they are the most deserving of our efforts now and a credit as compassionate thoughtful citizens, who can see the ‘Whole of the moon’
Like their leader I’m pretty sure the Gordon Browns cheerleading 70% grey ‘No Thankers’ can look after themselves .. (their voting pref’ shows that anyway).
Just got back from post referendum holiday and trying to catch up asap.
Delighted to see wings and others of our alternate media firing on all cylinders.
A concern – we’ve all had nearly a month to come to terms with the huge missed opportunity so time to reduce the amount of ‘spitting and fuming’ about unionist career politicians. They are what they are and the question now surely has to be how do we bust as many as possible of them as fast as possible !
We have the activists, we have the ‘devolution process’ we have big elections coming up etc. etc.
Let’s get the emphasis on to strategy and tactics for making the swine pay and moving our cause forward. If we keep on just pouring out our anger and hurt we’ll start to piss each other off and our REAL defeat will follow.
Please – let’s not go there. Fill the columns here and elsewhere with small and large ways to engage people and move forward !
People can sit all day long, 24/7, looking for and discussing the various theories on where it all went wrong and who voted what etc.
The bottom line is that we were, and still are, up against a unionist media machine which has spouted nothing but obnoxious lies and propaganda for decades, never mind the past 2 or 3 years.
The past 2 or 3 years have witnessed this machine churn out lie after lie and lead the campaign known as ‘project fear’.
Day after day, scaring the shit out of people and then their last throw of the dice with “The Vow”.
We did, and had nothing to counter any of this.
The main culprits have been, and will continue to be, the BBC,
so called Scottish newspapers such as the DR and so called Scottish politicians (aka ("Tractor" - Ed)s) such as Brown, Murphy, Alexander, Moore, Darling and Davidson etc.
Until we target, relentlessly, these obstructions and expose them for what they are and we put an end to unionist rags and bring down the BBC – we will continue to piss against the wind.
We need a powerful unified movement with its own means to get the message out to folk the length and breadth of the country –
I personally favour the idea of our own radio station but it has
to be done correctly.
So, the morning after the night before:
Johann is getting briefed on how to avoid mentions of The Vow.
ex PM Gordon is making calls to ensure he qualifies under “leader” for Scottish GE TV debate next year
Alastair Darling is getting his lackey to check his filofax for his next talk to a bank/fracking company/tax avoider
No voters go about their business oblivious to reality and enjoying life under their cosy Union umbrella.
Somewhere in the SNP, discussions continue on how to address the election, stand alone, or group together as a YES Alliance. Tick Tock Clarice.
@Valérie:
I still find it strange when they key issue for their existence comes up, you baulk, and remove your support.
That might not be the way they feel it; also, they may agree on all point with the SNP except that. I have no further clue. But I accept this is somewhat gobsmacking, though.
As far as I remember, no polls in every democratic country has ever demonstrated a 100% adhesion for whatever cause in whatever context.
Ok I take that back
@K1 says: 14 October, 2014 at 8:16 pm:
“Redwood and Danczuk, little roundup with Andrew Neil earlier, during the debate…must’ve gone oot for a toilet break. For those who didn’t catch the essence of what it’s about from the Tory position…
Anyone who has the slightest doubt of my claims of Westminster actually being the de facto parliament of England in the eyes of members of the Parliament of the United Kingdom elected from English constituencies needs only listen to Redwood for full confirmation.
Either Scotland becomes independent of England, the unelected Parliament of England is removed from Westminster or we resign ourselves as being a neglected region of England.
Valerie, the 14% isn’t the percentage of SNP members who voted No. It’s the percentage of people who voted for the SNP (I think in 2011) who voted No. Big difference.
In 2011 a lot of people voted SNP out of sheer horror at the very idea of Iain Gray becoming FM and Labour being in charge at Holyrood. It’s not that surprising that some of these people weren’t necessarily independence supporters.
There’s no accounting for folks, so I suppose it’s to be expected that the odd SNP member might have voted No, but I’d be astounded if any significant proportion of the party’s actual membership had done that.
@The Rough Bounds
Wee ‘tribute song’ I wrote for Jackie Bird for a “45 referendum tracks” CD
J’ackuse Bird
Oh woman woman woman
why you giving me the blues
I see you with those other guys
and with them you work the moves
You lay yourself down for them
but lay into me, and baby thats absurd
oh just fly away from me,
my pretty pretty
ugly nasty J’ackuse bird
Oh lady lady lady
Why you giving me such stick?
I see you with those other Johns
and I see your turning tricks
They told me that you were decent
But it was lies I must have heard
oh fly away from me
my pretty pretty
ugly nasty J’ackuse Bird
Grouse Beater at 11.35
I think you are listening to excuses from folk that were voting NO anyway and who, in the absence of any coherent reason they could offer to do so, found the “Vow” and other such pish very convenient
I think the lack of exit polls was startling and significant
I don’t believe the hundreds of thousand who registered to vote registered to vote NO
Even if every old person of pensionable age voted NO (which most certainly was not the case) they are heavily outnumbered by younger votes who voted YES by a significant margin.
The vote does not stack up.
We failed in the referendum because we did not get our message out. The great work done by the people on the ground going to rally’s, leafleting etc was negated because we don’t have a mainstream mechanism to get our message out and just as importantly countering the propaganda of the NO side.
We certainly managed to get our point over through social media but this does NOT provide a “mainstream in your face” daily blanket coverage such as that provided by the BBC (state media), STV or print media, and I fear until such times we get that we will have a problem. If you were one of those sitting on the fence and you are bombarded almost every hour of every day with pro union propaganda it is difficult to counter the arguments when you cant get your massage out
The momentum for Independence has not slackened and indeed has accelerated but we urgently need an outlet that gives us a platform.
I think we need to find a Rupert Murdoch type character (not him though) to fund a TV channel and newspaper which would provide a more evenly balanced view of the political situation. Any enterprising millionaire would see a gap in the market just waiting to be exploited in Scotland.
Until such times as we do we will always have an uphill struggle.
Dave, I hear what you’re saying about the vote not stacking up, but what I can’t figure out is any practical way it could have been tampered with on the sort of scale that would have been required.
I think what Alba 46 says in the post following yours is very significant.
@ valerie
Lord Ashcroft’s research showed that 14%of SNP VOTERS (at the 2011 election for Holyrood) voted no. That was not members but voters.
link to zerohedge.com
Morag
Agree with Alba although if a fiddle of the votes took place it would have been prepared well in advance.
There is a glaring hole in the newsprint media for an Independence supporting daily newspaper. Have heard rumours of an intended “Scottish Independence” to be introduced shortly.
Does anyone have anything concrete?
Thanks @Morag and Capella, that does make a difference, but it will also include these folks referred to last night, a party member, supporting and voting SNP, but then a No at the referendum. I had no reason to doubt these middle aged elected members. It’s just they need to realise that so many of the new membership, like me, have joined on the back of the referendum, an awakening to how bad this country fares under a UK govt. It will be a challenge for the whole of SNP to manage their huge membership, the MSP admitted that.
When I have my chance ill chat privately to someone. I really hope those party members intending to vote No, excused themselves from any planning, discussion, canvassing etc
You can’t have the MSP standing there saying we need to be ready for anything including a referendum, and some in your midst are liable to brief against? There were many like me gobsmacked, and many saying they were still suffering, and finding it hard to move forward with friends and family.
@Stoker
The bottom line is that we were, and still are, up against a unionist media machine which has spouted nothing but obnoxious lies and propaganda for decades, never mind the past 2 or 3 years.
i agree 100% with this, however, there are moves afoot to launch our own media which we can all support when it happens, we can even boycot such unionist media, this is a power we have and will make more use of in future.
collectively though,
1. join the snp
2. go to the next constituency meeting
3. find out the location of the new snp members in your area who are at the meeting and organise yourselfs into groups and go doorstep the new snp members not at the meeting
4. you will have access to maps of your area showing the leaflet runs.
the 1st yes newspaper took us 3 months to deliver, the last(kirsty) leaflet took 5 days, albeit all hands to the pump.
many here have pointed out about the lack of support and the amount of time they spent leafleting in their area. with the amount of new members the snp have, we should beable to get leaflets devivered almost over night. it is a question of organisation. it would also leave us all free to follow other ways of campaigning
5. we now have the most comprehensive canvassing results in scotland ever taken. we know where the yes and nos live.
avoid knocking on nos doors, target the yes supporters, get them to join the snp and become active, or at least try and get them to vote snp in may.
go below the wire, no flags, mass demonstrations. identify the vote and mobilise them to vote snp in may. the leafleting structure you set up will come into play as we near the election
this will be an excellent start,
To further bolster what Morag says, let’s admit there could have been a maximum of 2 to 3% dubious votes. That still wouldn’t get the YES votes over 50%.
Implying that YES lost because something went wrong with ballot handling is like charging the referee for a lost match.
What does it mean? That the (future) YES campaign for the (future) next referendum MUST secure at least 60% support. That’s the only way to be sure to win. That’s what we should be committed to.
Alba46,
I agree with the majority of your post above but have to disagree with your take on needing a “newspaper.”
(1)-You state that we need to find someone to fund a tv channel and newspaper? A tv channel, possibly, I agree with but newspapers are dwindling, and dwindling fast, for a multitude of reasons, not least that they are yesterdays news (every pun intended). With all the modern technology available, especially the internet, people are relying less and less on newspapers as
their main source of news-fix. Newspaper sales are fast approaching a small remainder of habitual buyers who’s purchase of their chosen rag will only cease when they kick the bucket.
Consider this, the Independence movement already has quite a few VERY WEALTHY supporters, if it was such a good idea to develop a sympathetic newspaper, don’t you think it would have been done already? Also, the Independence movement has already been supported, for a very long time, by the Scots Independent. If it was worthwhile and practical, don’t you think that would have been developed into something more substantial than a monthly?
The truth is, as far as reading news articles go, the printed press is a dying dinosaur and the internet, tv and radio seem to be the way forward.
We need to find a way (or ways) of getting into every household in the country. The most logical way of doing that is EXACTLY the same way as the unionists do it – TV and Radio.
We also need to be spreading the word, on the ground, via sources such as The Wee Blue Book and, as someone mentioned earlier, free and factual DVD’ posted through letter boxes and
posted on every possible internet site, not just YouTube.
@Stoker
I agree with you – newspapers are on the decline. But they are still important to the older generation and we don’t want to wait 20 years.
Also, a free newspaper with subtle propaganda amongst the sport, entertainment etc. might be read, whereas a leaflet goes in the bin.
Even if preparations were made well in advance, I still can see no practical way the referendum vote could have been tampered with, at least to the necessary degree and on a systematic basis. It also seems to me that if it had somehow been possible to do this, the No campaign wouldn’t have been panicking all over the place towards the end, and issuing needless concessions of further devolved powers.
Someone else made an interesting point. A large systematic conspiracy to falsify the vote would of necessity have involved a large number of people. In an such exercise, the possibility of discovery or betrayal by one of those involved becomes quite high. However badly Westminster wanted a No vote, the consequences to the British establishment of its being exposed as having rigged the ballot would have been unacceptable, internationally.
It’s always possible to highlight anomalies and inconsistencies. What nobody has done is suggest a plausible way, in the actual reality we inhabit, that a huge tamering exercise could actually have been carried out.
Tampering, even.
I think the people talking about hard-copy newspapers and broadcast TV need to get up to speed with what’s being worked on in these areas at the moment. There have been successful crowdfunding exercises and projects are underway.
Funding isn’t the only necessity. These initiatives need people with the talent and the media know-how to make a success of them, and they need a great deal of committment. I think there’s evidence these things exist, and that progress is being made.
It would probably be more constructive to support these projects, and access the material already available, than to post on Wings saying “we should crowdfund to buy a newspaper.”
@Stoker:
Being myself journalist, I would be more temperate. Yes, the newspapers are dying, but this is mainly caused by the “scoop rush” that tends to make newspapers as unreliable as Internet (which has become the main source for the papers too): under pressure, it is rare that editors double-check their sources. If a daily newspaper was ‘serious’, perused its sources and had great editorialists, I think it’d still have a large audience.
I think there is still ample space for journalism, in weekly or fortnightly magazines, for example, where articles are less tied to immediacy and more to analysis and/or thematic issues.
John,
A free newspaper might work on a very small percentage but I believe that our time, efforts and resources would be more effectual spent on other methods.
Also, I’m right with you on the “leaflet” method.
The thing though about leafleting, John, is that its quick, easy
to produce and relatively cheap.
I have no idea how effectual leafleting is, even though I’ve done plenty of it over the years. But from my own experience,
I know that as soon as I see unionist bumff coming through my door it goes into the bin, unread. Occasionally I have done the same with pro Independence leaflets, mainly because I’m Independence through and through, always have been, always will be. So if someone like me doesn’t always read pro Independence literature/leaflets etc how can we expect others to read them?
One thing, however, I think we all agree on is that we need to find powerful ways to reach out into every home in the country.
Powerful ways of getting our message and the truth across.
Meanwhile, we also have to focus on the destruction of the BBC
and the printed media in Scotland, using law abiding methods.
@Stoker
Every day on this forum we hear that the print media is dying. It maybe true but if we had just one pro Independence newspaper with the circulation figures of the Daily Record or the Sun we would have got our message out there. Which at the end of the day is what we want to do.
I think many people on this forum write off the circulation figures of the Unionist newspapers (at their peril) because the latest figures show a continuing downturn in numbers. Take for example the VOW in the Daily Record. It received massive coverage in just about every newspaper, radio programme and TV. Imagine if the pro independence parties received that amount of coverage a couple of days before the vote????
As long as they are in existence we have counter their arguments by print media. In 20 to 30 years time you may be right as the old farts (me included) will be long gone but there is still a hard core off people out there who do not use the Internet and do get their news via TV and print media.
Morag
If a well planned fiddle over postal votes took place, let us say. How does one dispell suspicions? By appearing to panic and making vows in rags for instance.
If anyone thinks that the establishment would baulk at cheating for a result then their heads really do button up the back
There is, no doubt, a market out there for a pro Independence newspaper. But how successful that venture would be, in getting the message across to the correct targets would depend on many factors. And even if we manage to pull this off, and start producing some sort of pro Indy newspaper, with all the best skills and brains behind it, I would still have serious reservations regarding its overall effectiveness.
Remember, its a well known fact that for any message to be delivered successfully, it has to be repeated constantly until
absorbed by the individual. I just don’t see a “free” circulation having the ability or resources to achieve that.
Most people, IF they even look at it, will simply just thumb through it and/or read it once then put it down, or in the bin.
TV and/or Radio pumping out the same messages, directly into
peoples homes, 24/7, will, in my opinion, have a far greater impact on far more people.
However, if we do get some sort of newspaper up and running I would certainly play my part in trying to get it to work. You can put me down as a regular ‘paperboy’ and I’ll make sure it gets delivered to every single property in my area, regardless of weather conditions – anything for the cause.
@ John King
Re: child poverty report
link to endchildpoverty.org.uk
seems to be the report referred to by the BBC (and various others).
It’s dated October 2014 (ie only just published); there was an earlier report last year, and this one is described as an “update” from August 2014.
It wouldn’t be unreasonable to have taken 2 months to report their findings if August had been a fieldwork date, but it isn’t clear to me that this is the case.
The update consists mostly of tables based on constituencies and local authorities, with only a small bit of text. This explains that they calculated their figures from tax credit information from 2011, and adjusted that ” taking into account Labour Force Survey data on the number of children in non-working households for the final
quarter of 2013.”
The headings in the tables also refer to 2013. It’s normal for all financial data to be well out of date by them time they are published, because of the deadlines for declaration, etc., but if this is an update written in August 2014 but referring to the last few months of the previous year, I don’t see why it took a further 2 months to publish it – that seems rather slow.
The Child Poverty Action Group may not have much money though, so they might only be able to commission someone to write it up part-time, or the university may have had procedures which slowed things down (the one I worked for did, even though that was not their purpose!).
Gavin, what I am saying is that I cannot think of any way the votes could possibly have been rigged or tampered with, in a systematic fashion and on a large enough scale to have affected the result. It’s easy enough to type the words “well-planned fiddle”, but it’s considerably more difficult (as far as I can see impossible) to describe how that might have happened in the actual real world we inhabit.
Also, the Vow was a massive rod for their own backs. They really, really didn’t want to do that. Unless they had to.
I remembered a survey done by Mitchell (ESRC) in 2011 of the SNP members, it came up in a gruniad thead way back when (caught out severin as he thought it was current!!).
link to esrc.ac.uk
“… found 87 per cent wanted Scottish independence, with 65 per cent of the SNP preferring independence as part of the European Union and 22 per cent outside the EU, and 12 per cent wanted more powers for the Scottish Parliament.”
If England wants English votes for English issues, let them set up their own parliament in a separate building with separately elected members, preferably using a PR system, in exactly the same way that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own parliaments to discuss devolved matters.
The sheer arrogance of English politicians assuming that Westminster is their parliament and that other MPs can be expelled for certain votes is breathtaking but symptomatic of all that is wrong with British politics.
We could give them an English Office in Lerwick House.
DMH: I think you are listening to excuses from folk that were voting NO
I’ll be the judge of that. Remarkable anyone challenges my reporting when they didn’t meet the people in question, a good many I’ve known for years.
Capella,
“These people are not liars.”
Then they are even more stupid than the establishment had thought they were.
Anyone who says they voted No because of the last minute vague promise of extra powers, which was nothing more than a ‘timetable’ is either lying or too stupid.
And if they are not, will they be protesting in the streets when we get almost nothing of what was promised?
Macart,
“Those who voted no because they really didn’t know the issues, were confused or made to feel fearful and confused need to be won over.”
I totally agree with that.
My view is that these people are predominantly working class. Ironically, these are also the people who would have benefited from independence.
They were not swayed by the ‘vow’, they were frightened to death by the likes of Asda.
Let us increase our grassroots campaign, out of view of the BBC and MSM, until we convince the vast majority of these people to vote Yes in 2017 (or even on 30th December this year as yesindyref2 has cheekily suggested).
I think it was both. They were frightened to death, but many were still hanging in there. The frightening softened them up for the Vow though. When it appeared, they were ready to clutch at it.