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And they’re off

Posted on November 09, 2019 by

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  1. 09 11 19 07:56

    And they’re off | speymouth

783 to “And they’re off”

  1. jimnarlene says:

    Absolutely brilliant, a multitude angles covered.

  2. ScottieDog says:


  3. Fergus Green says:

    Nicola’s ‘impediment’ looks significantly less damaging than the others.

  4. dunks says:

    To capture a moment in time is truly a gift. Pure genius, what a talent you have Chris.

  5. Effijy says:

    Genius Chris!

  6. Corrado Mella says:

    Very apt that the Haunted Pencil JRM is the grave digger.

    One trick missed, Chris.
    The man with the starting pistol? John Bercow.

    I would say aiming at BoJo The Clown, but that’s bastard me.

    You have the gift of synthesis. Great to have you on our side.

  7. Robert Louis says:

    Excellent. And especially Harvie, in his nonsense of standing in SNP marginals when he KNOWS all it will achieve is to damage the indy cause. Patrick Harvie, the dead weight of the indy campaign.

  8. Artyhetty says:

    Excellent. Corbyn tripped up, couldn’t see where he was going, no one can, and what’s his name digging the ditch for his bestie, it’s what troughing Tories do, then Swindle playing her own arrogant ignorant game, and Harvie clinging on to Nicola, dragging her back, just as well she has plenty of mettle.

    It is a game to the Britnats, not an intelligent or civil bone among them. Still all’s faur in love and war, and politics!

  9. Artyhetty says:

    Meant fair, not faur!

  10. Sharny Dubs says:

    A proper belly chuckle for a Saturday morning, cheers Chris!

  11. fman says:

    Come on Patrick. I clearly heard you say in George Square we had to work together to achieve independence. you know what has to be done.

  12. Richardinho says:

    This is funny, but ultimately Boris will win, much as I wish it were otherwise.

  13. winifred mccartney says:

    Fantastic – how do you do it.

    As for Harvie if he splits the snp vote he will pay dearly and will deserve to. He is getting too big for his boots.

  14. Gary45% says:

    Nice one Chris.

  15. Ian McCubbin says:

    Well done again covers all the agonies and headaches. Love the Patrick Harvie position.

  16. Famous15 says:

    The Libdem vanity phase has begun to fade and be replaced by a frantic frazzled say anything whining here delusion of merit where there is none.

    “Go back to your constituencies and prepare for Government” was a joke when announced by David Steel but Jo has exceeded his comedy by demanding she become PM.

    To think 50 years ago I thought I would vote Liberal.Silly me!

  17. Abulhaq says:

    It is to the SNP’s and Scotland’s advantage that Johnson has a majority and takes the British state out of the EU.
    It is the perfect strategic scenario offering the golden opportunity to choose sovereignty and independence.
    Would enough Scots have the nous and the bottle to make the choice?

  18. Street Andrew says:

    Not a very flattering Nicola toon,. She’s bonnier than that.

    Otherwise spot-on.

  19. Scozzie says:


    Let’s get Indy Poster Boy to do graphic we can flood over social media. This is an utter disgrace that the third largest party is not able to join the debate on BBC / ITV.

    Let’s do a ‘National Switch Off’ encouraging people in Scotland to refuse to watch this contrived so called GE debate.

    The YES movement needs to push hard we cannot afford to allow ourselves to be pushed to the side-lines. Time for everyone to get vocal.

  20. Ahundredthidiot says:


    Thank You Chris.

  21. Grouse Beater says:

    That’s a clever, Chris, you’ve matured into a very talented caricaturist. I particularly enjoyed wee Harvie hanging on to Sturgeon’s leg. Very neat. I guess we’d better get used to having them hold greater power after the election than they have now.

    Your essential weekend reading –

    ‘Guarding Scottish education’:
    ‘Too much democracy’:

  22. Elizabeth says:

    Chris has got Jo Swinson bang on ? She certainly has a fine conceit o hersel!

  23. HandandShrimp says:

    Perfect 🙂

    The most shambolic election start I’ve ever seen and May set the bar low.

  24. Flower of Scotland says:

    This is spot on, Chris! Very well done. I’ve shared everywhere I can think of.

  25. sassenach says:

    Great cartoon, Chris, I just hope Nicola has already had words with the ‘wee green handicap man’ and maybe stressed the unlikely support for any future Green bills in Holyrood.

    We SNP voters will certainly not help his ‘list’ MSPs next time.

  26. Bob Mack says:

    Brilliant as usual. Nicola should also be getging held back by all the media hacks on paper and Tv who continually hinder the SNP.

    Its us against the world in reality.

  27. Den Cairns says:

    I thought that mirror was a tennis racket ;o) !!

  28. callmedave says:

    Excellent and that saved you writing a few hundred words.
    One of your recent best. 🙂

    Farage missing probably took a short cut and will ambush the others further on next week.

  29. chicmac says:

    Brilliant illustration of the situation.

    10/10 Jo Swinson
    10/10 Tom Watson
    10/10 Patrick Harvey
    9/10 Jacob Rees Mogg
    7/10 Nicola Sturgeon
    7/10 Boris Johnson
    3/10 Richard Leonard

    RL low score not surprising since he is the least memorable of the bunch. He looks a bit like Alexander Armstrong here – subliminal pointless connection?

  30. chicmac says:

    Oops, just blew up the photo and now realise its Corbyn.

  31. mike cassidy says:

    Feck me!

    Who’s Afraid Of Virginia Woolf Of The Sixth Form?

    And this was one of those academy schools!

  32. SilverDarling says:

    Good stuff.

    We know more than ever some have no intention of participating in the race but give that illusion to promote their careers. Lots of ‘cunning stunts’ this week alone…

    One of the most illuminating aspects of Johnson’s tenure is the unmasking of Rees-Mogg, who with every statement, appearance and speech shows himself as more unpleasant and mediocre than we ever suspected. Truly educated beyond his abilities.

  33. winifred mccartney says:

    No Richard Leonard in cartoon thats Corbyn (I hope) labour richard of the red scarf (needs it to pretend to be labour) has no mention he is a nonentity -disappearing fast – question is who will be next for both labour ‘leaders’.

  34. Colin Alexander says:

    Nicola Sturgeon Reality Check #1:

    Did the British Empire crumble regarding SNP demands that all four countries of the Union must agree to leave? No.

    Did the British Empire crumble regarding SNP demands that Scotland’s Remain vote be respected? No.

    Did the British Empire crumble regarding SNP demands for a seat at Brexit talks? No.
    Did the British Empire crumble regarding requests for talks about Indyref2? No.

    Did the British Empire crumble regarding demands Scotland remains in the EU Single Market and Customs Union? No.

    Did the British Empire crumble regarding demands that UK Parliament respect the 20 year old devolution agreement and not legislate for a devolution power grab? No.

    Did the British Empire crumble regarding demands that UK Parliament respect the Continuity Bill passed by the Scottish Parliament? No.

    Did the British Empire Labour and LibDem parties respect their Claim of Right 1989 that again acknowledged the right of the people of Scotland to decide the form of government best suited to their needs? No.

    What evidence is there that either a Conservative or Labour Govt would respect the 2016 Holyrood mandate for Indyref2? None. That Holyrood mandate expires around April 2021.

    The best that can be said is murmurings from John McDonnell about a Labour Govt might one day respect an indyref mandate at some unspecified date, if the SNP obtained another indyref mandate in May 2021. The Tories insist no indyref2.

    Currently, it looks like the Tories are favourites to win GE2019.

    Evidence to support an indyref2 being held without British Empire permission eg s30?

    None: Nicola Sturgeon: “I am not open to that possibility…,” she told reporters in September 2019.


    Is there any point in voting SNP? It can be argued:

    Yes, every SNP MP elected is one less Empire MP elected.
    Yes, it gives extra funds to the SNP and takes funds from the British Empire parties.
    Yes, if you are an SNP supporter. It will give you a temporary buzz.
    Large number of votes for SNP could indicate support for indy remains high.

    Will an SNP win take us one step closer to independence?

    There is no proof that it would. The Empire can continue to ignore the SNP and Scottish democracy.
    Is there a risk of harm in voting SNP?

    Possibly, only time will tell: a vote for the SNP would be seen as backing for Nicola Sturgeon’s seriously flawed s30 indyref2 policy.

    A policy based on Scottish servility within the Empire and an unrealistic hope of British Empire respect for Scottish democracy, mutual cooperation and respect for conventions such as democratic mandate and Sewel Convention, which have no legal basis so are un-enforceable.
    Recommendation: If it makes you happy, vote SNP. But be realistic about what it will achieve: Voting SNP won’t stop Brexit or deliver independence.

  35. sassenach says:

    My God, Coco is increasing his post length – more work for the ‘scroll-past’ finger.

    What a diddy Coco is.

  36. kapelmeister says:

    Why is Swinson, the captain of the Tory B team, so bothered about being included in the TV debates when Johnson of the Tory A team will be representing them?

  37. auld highlander says:

    m.c. @ 111.32

    The head of that school should be run out of town and
    be branded a paedo.

  38. kapelmeister says:

    Colin Alexander

    And I would type 500 words
    And I would type 500 more
    Just to be the man who typed a thousand words
    To be a total bore.

  39. Effijy says:

    The Daily Hail, Nazi supporting propaganda pamphlet deductions page after
    Page to SNP Bad and now they are being linked to awful Labour.

    They did out some old retired Tory who once worked in our NHS today how bad it is.

    So strange when our NHS is by far better performing than Tory or Labour NHS Services
    But repeat it often enough to gullible readers and it gets results.

    Any architectural or engineer problems with new build hospitals all fall on our First Minister.
    She must have drawn up the plans, won the tender and installed it with her own set of spanners.

    These people are dangerous and they are willing to use any lie or tactic to install their right wing
    Fascist leader Bojo the Clown.

  40. Old Pete says:

    Only choice, however you feel there are flaws is voting for the SNP if you truly want Scottish Independence.
    If not for the SNP we would not be even discussing Scottish Independence.
    If not for the SNP we would not have a devolved government.
    So nothing else is acceptable for an Independence advocate than voting SNP.

  41. Effijy says:

    Stop press. Daily Hail announce SNP killed Charles Kennedy?
    No it wasn’t the alcoholic addiction, it wasn’t the pressure the Libs put on the man
    to be leader when he wasn’t fit and it wasn’t the media prying into his private life.

    So because the Tories can win Kennedy’s old seat and Ian Blackford is the incumbent
    You must vote for Yellow Tory Libs.

    If you don’t then you killed Charles too.

    F Psthetic.

  42. Dr Jim says:

    @sassenach 11:59am

    Its’ all hate and bitterness now with this boy

  43. ronnie anderson says:


    Thats as far as it goes folks OSCR dont appear to be concerned about possible criminal aspects of this Institute of Statecraft

  44. Bob Mack says:

    Charles Kennecy Lib Dem lost his seat to Blackfkrd in 2015. He had been under constant attack by his own party since 2005, demanding he resign due go his poor leadership and alohol problems. He eventually did.

    Its a bit rich to claim the SNP made him unwell.He and his own party did that themselves with no help.

  45. Dr Jim says:

    Interesting look at the towns and cities in England who will elect the next Prime Minister of Britain, from SKY news

    They made no mention of Scotland Wales or Northern Ireland, apparently our countries are only part of this Union when it comes to the *ruling and taking*

  46. Effijy says:

    The Daily Hail has found a small corner to report on Scotland’s massive
    And ever increasing contribution to yet another London Centric project-

    The Project under the management of European Negotiation masters the Tory Party
    Started out with costs of £15.9 Billion. but every year the cost goes up and the opening date is put back.

    Of course they will fail to meet the new expected cost of £18.25 Billion and
    Maybe open some time in 2021.

    What is £2.35 Billion between friends and it only another few hundred million for Scotland to chip in.

    No need to blame anyone here. Especially the political party behind it all.
    Please turn over another SNP Bad page.

  47. dakk says:

    Oh now that’s very good Chris.

    I take it you considered Ian Austin in lieu of Tom Watson but was too difficult even for your talents. I mean where would you start?

  48. Gary45% says:

    Colin A@11.51
    GET TO YOUR BED SON. You must try harder.

  49. Artyhetty says:

    RE Den Cairns@11.05

    I also thought the mirror was a tennis racket, but mirror makes more sense, she has no reflection! Having said that, tennis racket would be right given her batting whichever way the wind favours her ball.

  50. Tam the Bam. says:

    Any Questions BBC Radio 4 from Falkirk.

    PANEL: Alyn Smith SNP
    Ropeyard Leopardskin S/LAB
    a tory
    …and a fib dum

  51. manandboy says:

    A political cartoon of the highest order, Chris. Very well done!

  52. manandboy says:

    ..but who is tripping Corbyn up. Tom Watson?

  53. Colin Alexander says:

    Is calling anyone a “diddy” any better than calling someone a “terf” or “the poison dwarf” cos you don’t agree with their point of view?

    Take a look at yourselves and try to be better than the dark forces of the Evil Empire.

  54. Ron Maclean says:

    Q. Without resorting to juvenile insults please explain why Colin Alexander is wrong?

    A. I can’t.

  55. Ghillie says:

    That’s a tidy summary Chris =)

    I was deeply disappointed at Alison Johnson’s vainglorious idiocy that crowned Ruth Davidson MSP in Edinburgh Central.

    But Patrick Harvie’s vainglorious blockheadship could now cost SEVERAL seats for the Independence movement.

    On top of that, Mr Harvie could now be the architect of the demise of the Green Party in Scotland altogether.

    Come on Patrick! Where is your political common sense?

    England will sink beneath the waves before ANY Westminster government will do ANYTHING to save the World!

    Independent Scotland will continue to lead the World towards the greener future we all need Worldwide. And the Greens could finally come into their own. But not this way.

    Think again, please, Mr Harvie.

    Vote SNP for Independence!

    AND a greener future!!

  56. Terry callachan says:

    I have a lot of time for the greens , fighting climate change and pollution and land use is crucial for our future.
    I understand why the greens are contesting seats in a U.K. general election ,they believe the SNP will win more seats than they already have at present so do I .
    The negative part of what they are doing is that perhaps the SNP would win even more seats if the greens did not contest the seats that SNP contest.

    I would prefer the greens to not contest seats that the SNP contest but that is asking a lot of them .
    Perhaps if there was a way of SNP helping the greens get just one seat , their first ever , the greens would give up on contesting the rest .

  57. george wood says:

    Could have had Mhairi Black, or some other member of the Trans cult that infests the SNP, grabbing NS’s other leg.

  58. chicmac says:


    “No Richard Leonard in cartoon thats Corbyn”

    Trouble with this high res screen I have is the cartoon is only about 3 inches across unless I click on it to full screen it.

    At that size its difficult to make out Corbyn’s beard or that Watson was tripping him up.

    Realized the mistake as soon as I blew it up.

  59. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    The punchline being that the person who makes the strongest case for voting SNP in this election is the one who tries desperately, day after day, from whatever latest bizarro angle he can cook up, to persuade others not to vote SNP.

    Think about the time and effort this guy puts into suggesting people shouldn’t vote SNP — THAT’S how desperate our opposition are that you shouldn’t vote SNP.

  60. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Colin Alexander @ 13:36,

    Complain all you like, Lord Hee Haw, but as sassenach rightly observed upthread, we are getting tired of scrolling past your predictable insinuations, which are clearly ill-intended. Hence our antipathy. You’ve earned it. Our tolerance for your toxic propaganda has long since worn thin.

    It’s your call, but if you were wiser and less obsessed, you would realise that you are truly wasting your precious time on here.

  61. winifred mccartney says:

    Must say I rarely notice everything the first time I see cartoon and don’t always recognise everyone – I didn’t realise Swinson was holding a mirror but that too makes great sense and says everything you need to know about her.

  62. dadsarmy says:

    Wormtongue: “Nicola Sturgeon: “I am not open to that possibility…,” she told reporters in September 2019.”

    No she didn’t, that quote out of context was March 2019.

    And the other 999,980 words were boring mince as well.

  63. Bobp says:

    CA 11.51 ” voting snp wont stop brexit or deliver independence”. Who do you think we should vote for colin to deliver independence?.

  64. Marydoll says:

    When do you think the AS trial will be?my bet is
    The week before

  65. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    chicmac @ 14:09,

    I clocked Corbyn all right, but missed that it was Tom Watson who was tripping him up. (Duh!)

    Like Artyhetty, my first impression was also that Jo Swansong was brandishing a tennis racquet. I think it was the shorts and shoes wot done it. =grin= But yes, a mirror is (just slightly!) more appropriate. All that’s lacking is a sheaf of dodgy graphs clutched under her other arm!

  66. Nana says:


    Check out the tweet and the link to publications parliament below

    There is a provision in Johnsons Withdrawal Agreement Bill that would allow him to amend or repeal the Scotland Act at will without approval of Parliament?

  67. dadsarmy says:

    Possibly just as well Pannick is on the Committee – Jim Wallace, Tory appeaser, would probably just laugh.

  68. Nana says:

    Report was released yesterday

    The Lords’ Constitution Committee rushed out a report on the last day of Parliament to provide the only clause-by-clause scrutiny of the Prime Minister’s EU withdrawal legislation.

  69. ScotsRenewables says:

    Looks like Johnson’s WA bill would allow him to repeal the Scotland Act and abolish Holyrood. Hope I have misread this, anyone care to comment?

    European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill: interim report

    Paragraph 82:
    There is no restriction on 8C powers being used to . . . . . amend or repeal the Scotland Act 1998, the Government of Wales Act 2006 or the Northern Ireland Act 1998.

  70. cirsium says:

    @ronnie, 12.29

    I would have thought that using charitable status as a front for personal enrichment would require more than correspondence with the “charity” and a final report. Kit Klarenburg, who has followed this from the beginning, has this to say:

  71. Dr Jim says:

    I certainly hope when the broacasters get round to inviting the First Minister to debate on Scottish TV with the likes of Rennie Leopon and Carwash she tells them where to go

    Why on earth should the leader of the SNP and FM of the country debate with people who are in no position to do anything other than say anything they like because they’re not even responsible for the words they say, It’s the leaders of the other political parties Scotland’s FM should be debating not their lackeys

  72. Simon Curran says:

    With reference to above comments on Charles Kennedy, he always seemed a decent bloke. I wonder what he would have made of the current crop of Lib Dems and what has become of the party that he once led?

  73. Colin I would say that what you are up against on here is none are so blind as those who refuse to see but I agree with most of your views but you see the truth hurts some people so they do not like to be told it

  74. cirsium says:

    Bravo, Chris. Good to see “vainglorious blockheadship” in visual form.

    Re the WA, I have always thought that Brexit was a Trojan horse and that the real issue was the removal of powers from the Scottish Parliament. In the last fortnight, Mr Johnson has threatened the status of the Scottish Health Service and Scottish Water and now we have para 82.

  75. Ghillie says:

    Oh wow –

    Pete Wishart tweeted that the Perth and North Perthshire Greens are not standing a candidate against him!

    Pete is very grateful and hopes he can repay them with his work in Westminster 🙂

    Thankyou PNP Green Party 🙂

    SNP voters – be SURE to vote on December 12th!!

  76. Gary45% says:

    Anyone got any clue on the Brexit Party candidates in Scotchland?
    I’ve tried their website, no luck, although for £100 per month,or £1000 per year you can join their club!!!!
    Now that’s a bargain, because of the talent Faridge has.
    Yes “Tongue firmly in cheek”.

  77. Dr Jim says:

    @cirsium 3:41pm

    Definitely agree with you if Johnson wins this thing outright, the attacks on devolution will surely follow, they’ve done what needed to be done in Northern Ireland to silence politicians there now the next step is to get rid of Northern Ireland altogether and move on to the retention of Scotland but without a parliament with the SNP in it to fight back

    They’ll put it in the first Queens speech, I read another person talking about the same thing this morning

  78. Graeme says:

    Colin Alexander says:
    9 November, 2019 at 1:36 pm

    Is calling anyone a “diddy” any better than calling someone a “terf” or “the poison dwarf” cos you don’t agree with their point of view?


    Diddy is a derogatory word to describe someone of low intellect TERF is a made up word which if I was a proper female would wear as a badge of honour

  79. Ghillie says:

    Nana, ScotsRenewables and cirsium,

    The HOL analysis of Boris Trumps Withdrawal Agreement Bill, just published, throws up even more worrying details about the Power Grab and how far that could be taken!

    Stuart, would you consider taking a look at it, give Wingers your take on it and letting us digest and debate it btl please?

    We need to know and understand the extent of the Power Grab NOW.

  80. Well done to the Greens for NOT standing against Pete Wishart.

    Let’s get Indy first and then we can all vote for the parties we want – that we have formed in our new Scotland.

  81. robertknight says:

    Pity the Greens are standing in Stirling. Would be nice to see the back of Stephen Kerr and have Alyn Smith elected. If the Greens pick up 500 votes and Kerr retains the seat by the same number then the Greens best avoid doorstepping me for the next 500 years!

  82. dadsarmy says:

    @Ghillie / @Meg merrilees

    The reason given for standing was to get their policies out during an election when they have the platform to do so. The Greens £100 billion a year plan isn’t unfeasible, and the correspodning £8 billion for iScotland similar – if it gives us enough economic benefit to pursue the real green deal. Personally I think it could do, specially with our own currency and judicious use of MMT.

    Now they’ve stood aside for Wishart, the least he can do is look at their plan, similar for the Common Weal £3-£4 billion a year house plan – and perhaps give support to it when talking Independence, or at least, to give it the airing a Gr4een Westminster candidate could do.

    Greens do ahve a point abut “Climate Emergency”, bit it needs Independence for Scotland to do our bit properly.

  83. Colin Alexander says:


    For as long as the SNP is willing to send MPs to Westminster and swear allegiance to the United Kingdom Crown, Scotland will never be independent.

    Scotland will never be independent for as long as the people of Scotland accept servility and limited democracy as colonial subjects of Empress Elizabeth’s sovereign power in the Union Parliament.

  84. RM says:

    If climate change is a fact with what seems to be happening around the world, the SNP and the GREENS will have a lot more in common as the years go on, be good to work together as everything will have to change start doing it now, be more modern do it different from Westminster get away from the medieval way of ruling and doing.

  85. Giving Goose says:

    Meanwhile a baby foodbank has been set up by mums in Springburn, Glasgow.
    See the Evening Times online for details.
    A “baby foodbank”.
    In 2019.
    And the Tories, Labour and especially the LibDems would have us wrap ourselves in the union jack and gush with British pride at this.

  86. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Nana @ 14:41, 14:52,
    dadsarmy @ 2:49,
    ScotsRenewables @ 2:58,

    Hi nana, good to see you posting here again. And to excellent effect.

    What with all the recent distractions of the House of Clowns, we have rather been taking out eyes off the ball over the Power Grab, which it seems has been further ramped up by Bozo surreptitiously. (Why are we not surprised?)

    All of which serves to remind us that Brexit and the cause of independence are inextricably intertwined, like it or not. Currently at least it looks like the Tory EngNats will be firmly in charge after this election, so the stakes couldn’t be higher. Maybe it’s going to take a whole bunch of dashed hopes in a few weeks’ time for people to finally wake up to grim reality, and get behind IR2. (And the earlier next year the better, before all hope is dissipated.)

    Given where we are, a maximal vote for the SNP is very obviously the necessary requirement for making the case for IR2 unanswerable. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is either a total dummy or a wangler.

  87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    me @ 16:49,

    Oops, that should be “taking our eyes off”. No harm to any unsuspecting lurker intended! =grin=

  88. Still Positive says:

    Giving Goose @ 4.42

    The 1st time I put a donation to a foodbank collection was when David Cameron attended a 5-course dinner (in Glasgow, I think.) I put disposable nappies and baby food in. I wasn’t prepared for my eyes filling up.

    Can’t bear the thought of babies or toddlers going without.

  89. Colin Alexander says:

    Blair Paterson

    It’s a gradual thing and perhaps too few too late but, I think more people in the YES movement are now asking serious questions of Nicola Sturgeon’s “strategy” for independence.

    We are all still for independence but aren’t prepared to swallow the same old empty party political rhetoric and prioritising of Ms Sturgeon’s devolution policies ahead of independence.

  90. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Colin Alexander @ 16:58,


    Fake, fake, fake.

    “Colin Alexander” isn’t even your real name. (Or is that plural?)

    In your case, defo a wangler. In BP’s case, probably the other.

  91. Col.Blimp IV says:

    I wonder if the Scottish Greens decision to stand in some of the SNP marginals is an under the table part of the deal done between the E&W Greens, PC, and the Lib-Dems?

    I can think of no other plausible reason, so it is guilty unless proven otherwise for me.

    Ergo: my second vote at Holyrood will go nowhere near them for the foreseeable future.

  92. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    For all those weary of the dismal dirges of the house Iagos, here is a far more reliable reminder of the crucial need for engagement:

  93. Gary45% says:

    Colin A @4.31
    You didn’t nap long enough, what is YOUR answer to getting Indy?
    I’ll tell what, lets go for UDI tomorrow morning at 9am, no excuses, tomorrow morning. When that is thrown back at us, will lack of democracy be used as an excuse? you bet it would be. We would piss off the “on the fence” no voters who will turn the other cheek after 5 years of campaigning to get them onside, after all we are supposed to be a democracy.
    Westminster isn’t ideal but you get nowhere by sitting on you hands in the huff, bitching about how bad it is.
    Say the SNP get a clean sweep in the GE, yes we all know how the Establishment will treat Scotland, but a nation ignored will never be tolerated.
    GE 2019 SNP all the way, when we are Independent, who ever has the best vision for Scotland will get my vote.( although the majority of the current members of the opposition parties in HR would need deselected.)
    Over to you Colin.

  94. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Robert J. Sutherland said:
    9 November, 2019 at 4:49 pm

    “Given where we are, a maximal vote for the SNP is very obviously the necessary requirement for making the case for IR2 unanswerable. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is either a total dummy or a wangler.”

    Despite my reservations about the motivation of some of the leadership and the “Woke Wing” of the SNP, I wholeheartedly agree with you. To borrow a phrase from the common enemy of mankind – There Is No Alternative.

  95. ronnie anderson says:

    cirsium 3.09 Thanks i’ve fired off another email to OSCR re reporting this to Police Scotland , we need now to contact the SG to get a public inquiry going in the next session of Holyrood Parliament .

  96. Colin Alexander says:

    We are told Nicola is going to ask for an s30 in December.

    Let’s assume the SNP win a majority of seats in Scotland at GE 2019.

    Agreed we give it 28 days for an answer to the s30 request as the standard time limit for a reply in business?

    I would like to read anyone’s SNP road to independence, if s30 is not approved by the end of January 2020.

  97. Ahundredthidiot says:

    coco is loco

    he’s a goddamn joko

    and also a bit of thicko

    he needs to fuckityoffity

  98. scotspatriot says:

    Tam Cowan on off the ball….
    It’s so cold outside, Ross Thomson has his hands down his own Trousers.
    Surely must be Joke of the Tear ?

  99. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Col.Blimp IV @ 17:28,

    As it happens, I share your particular reservations. (With a single party being the torch-bearer of independence, how could it be otherwise, if not one thing, then another?)

    But as Capella recently reminded us, Scotland is in no way unique in being assailed by this issue. Nor is it unique to the SNP, it’s just that the other parties are keeping their heads well down, and don’t have to deal with it anyway.

    But first things first, as you say.

  100. Elmac says:

    @ Colin Alexander

    Just a gentle reminder Colin. Its nearing the end of your shift again. Presumably you are getting double time for weekend work and probably having it paid direct to your offshore bank account. Be a good little Colin and ooze back under your stone again.

  101. Dr Jim says:

    The SNP can and will deliver a referendum, they don’t have the power to make people vote for it, so they can’t *get us* Independence, that’s up to the people

  102. velofello says:

    Colin Alexander in his post of 11.51 am raises eight valid points of concern, to me at least, regards the SNP’s strategy forwards gaining independence. I’m not au fait on why he receives the aggression towards him.

    I wouldn’t ask Boris Johnson, and his ilk, for the time of day. To engage with him, to request a S30 from him, is to diminish yourself.

    It has been mentioned by others – why, if the UK didn’t require a S30 equivalent from the EU to hold a referendum on leaving the EU – does Scotland require a S30?

    if so minded, SNP needs, with haste to request a S30, with time limit on response, receive the rebuttal, and then move to the next stage of gaining independence.

  103. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I would suggest that instead of trying to work out what the SNP are doing, strategy and tactics-wise, we let things play out, and then If we think it’s mince, that’s the time to make our feelings known.

  104. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    And, BTW, I would think that is suicidal for the Scottish Greens to stand in any Scottish constituency that was, in the last parliament, held by an SNP MP.

    Or a constituency that will become a straight fight between SNP and Labour (Edinburgh South?).

    Once we’re independent, the Greens will have their place in government.

  105. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Brian Doonthetoon @ 19:36,

    Eminently sensible.

    And the few who will likely ignore that good advice in the meantime are in effect self-declaring for another agenda entirely.

  106. Colin Alexander says:

    Has anyone ever watched the comedy Father Ted: Episode Speed 3?

    Father Dougal is on a milk float that has a bomb attached.

    Father Ted is looking for ideas how to save Dougal. The Priests hold a Mass.

    After the Mass, Father Ted again looks for ideas to save Dougal. All the other priests can only suggest holding another Mass, as the last one went so well.

    Switch priests for SNP politicians, and Masses for elections and it seems to sum up the SNP.

    Since 2015, the SNP win election after election, while we’re dragged out of the EU and our Scottish Parliament is stripped of powers, our wealth flows south and our young people move away to find opportunities elsewhere.

    But No answers from the SNP as to how Scotland moves towards independence if, as they’ve warned, the British Empire says No to indyref2.

    I think I know the SNP’s answer already; I think Stu does too: Let’s contest another election in 2021 as the last one went so well.

  107. mr thms says:

    Coinciding with the Scottish Referendum we have

    “A six month Festival celebrating Arbroath’s Future through its inspirational history.”

    (Starts April 2020 until September 2020)

    “2020 marks the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath, one of Scotland’s most important historical artefacts. To celebrate, the famous document will go on public display for the first time in 15 years at the National Museum of Scotland.

    The Declaration is a letter dated 6 April 1320 written by the barons and freeholders of the Kingdom of Scotland to Pope John XXII. The letter asked the pope to recognise Scotland’s independence and acknowledge Robert the Bruce as the country’s lawful king.”

    (27 Mar – 26 Apr 2020)

    There was even a book launch yesterday for..

    “The Illustrated Declaration of Arbroath”


  108. potter says:

    Colin Alexander, boring as fuck, no wonder a few years ago WOS was the place to go, now its just boring. ?OS, Colin seprated at birth… SNPBAD.

  109. potter says:

    Colin Alexander, boring as fuck, no wonder a few years ago WOS was the place to go, now its just boring. ?OS, Colin seprated at birth… SNPBAD.

  110. potter says:

    Colin Alexander, boring as fuck, no wonder a few years ago WOS was the place to go, now its just boring. ?OS, and Colin separated at birth… SNPBAD.

  111. Lukas Scholts says:

    The comments section seems to be at the mercy of a very typical clique, and the attacks on Colin Alexander, who has made some very sensible points, are noteworthy.

    Here’s a suggestion. Instead of muffling the call for independence and indyref2, the SNP could stop playing party-politics games and declare that this election is about independence and nothing else.

    How easy would that be?

    And if they won on that basis they would have something in their hands they could take to the UN or anywhere and expect support.

    As it stands, with the muffled position and manifesto that the SNP has come up with, we come out of this with nothing either way; the first thing unionists are going to say when you send 40 or so MPs to Westminster on that manifesto is that the election wasn’t about independence.

    In fact, I’ll say it myself — winning forty or fifty seats in this election on that SNP manifesto, means absolutely nothing. Another few years of moaning, that’s about it.

  112. Dorothy Devine says:

    Potter , I suppose there are some things worth repeating!

  113. Col.Blimp IV says:

    mr thms

    Perhaps we should re-jig the Declaration of Arbroath for the 21st Century.

    Substitute the General Secretary of the UN for the Pope and the MSPs and MPs for the Barrons. With the names and constituencies of ALL the MSPs and MPS printed on the document with a box for their signature, “DECLINED TO SIGN” to be stamped in red ink against the names of the refusniks.

    Not a declaration of independence but an assertion of the right of the people of Scotland to choose how and by whom they are governed.

    An pop it in the post the moment the UK Gov refuses the S30 request.

    It might be interesting to petition the Governments of the many former colonies of the British Empire to petition for it to be discussed at a plenary meeting of the General Assembly.

  114. dadsarmy says:

    @Lukas Scholts
    In fact, I’ll say it myself — winning forty or fifty seats in this election on that SNP manifesto, means absolutely nothing. Another few years of moaning, that’s about it.

    Go on then, what’s your alternative? Do you have a plan?

  115. dadsarmy says:

    For those who have eyes of their own and look for truth rather than Grima Wormtongue word twisting, here’s Sturgeon launching the SNP manifesto:

    which states as plainly as the plook on Grima’s nose:

    My intention is that the people of Scotland will decide Scotland’s future in an independence referendum next year.

    which is surrounded by paragraphs which are all about Independence, representing a full one-third of the speech.

    And yes, the speech also appeals to those 62% who don’t want to leave the EU, and those who care about education, the NHS and just about everything else. It’s called “maximising the vote”.

    If it doesn’t appeal to Grima Wormtongue and its bevvy of johnny-come-lately SNP-knocker Carlaw Jackson lookalike Heed’s Slovenian girl-friend, it’s as plain as the nose on the end of the plook that is Colin Alexander, why it doesn’t appeal. They’re as fake as the eskamel trying to hid the plook.

    We’re going to need a giant tube of eskamel.

  116. Dr Jim says:


    Don’t let it bother you, they’re infesting every corner of the internet like cockroaches right now because the SNP are winning and they can’t stand it, they hate for hate’s sake, watch them become more demented as the days pass

  117. Craig Murray says:

    IN this FPTP election, and in current circumstances, it is disgraceful and downright immoral for the Greens to be standing candidates against the SNP.

  118. Dr Jim says:

    @Craig Murray

    With you on that and what I don’t understand is standing in constituencies where they have never won and have zero chance of doing anything like East Dunbartonshire limiting the chance of removing Jo Swinson even though we know the Lib Dems will throw every penny they’ve got at it to keep her in

  119. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Lukas Scholts at 8:41 pm

    I suspect that the Nationalists who are still in the SNP hierarchical loop, more than anything else do not want to “drop the ball” when we are so close to the goal line.

    Like it or not, the SNP has for the past 20 odd years been a political party, Not a National Movement and as such, promotes policies that are not to the liking of every Scot who supports the idea of independence.

    It is difficult to argue against a long term strategy that has taken the SNP from being a party with just 3 out of a total of 72 MPs into the position that they are in now and to suddenly wind back the clock on a hunch that more votes would be gained than lost and that there would be enough of them to break the 50% barrier would be foolhardy, reckless or inspired depending on the result, which would be impossible to predict before it was too late to retrieve the situation.

    Hence it is much safer and some might say wiser, to go for a good showing at the GE and a push for a referendum afterwards.

  120. callmedave says:

    UK’s credit rating could be downgraded, says Moody’s

    Darling told us in 2013 the UK was graded AAA.
    Only something an Independent Scotland could dream about. 🙂

  121. Golfnut says:

    @ Col. Blimp 1V

    No need Col, the Declaration of Arbroarth forms the basis of Scots Constitutional law, that would be the Scots Constitutional Law Westminster was signed up to by the Treaty of Union. Nice to hear the COS and the SP confirm that neither the Crown or Parliament are above the law.

  122. Robert Louis says:

    Seen the great folks at the independence stand outside the Galleries by Dewar’s statue in Glasgow today. Happy to tell them I would definitely be voting SNP.

    I now think the SNP strategy is actually sound. All the unionist talk of ‘we won’t allow a referendum’ is just that, talk. What is ACTUALLY done, is what matters.

    The fact is, that a strong showing for the SNP will help our cause no end. Then we watch as events get played – and PLAYED, they will be. The SNP leadership know what they are doing with regard to this.

    Looking forward to indyref 2020. The it is Scotland’s chance to decide – ruled by a real life johnson and taken out of the EU against our wishes by England, or run our own affairs, like any NORMAL country does, and stay in the EU.

  123. Colin Alexander says:

    “It is my intention…”

    The road to Scotland’s EU-exit, devolution power grab, extreme right-wing One Nation British Nationalism hell is paved with Nicola’s good intentions.

    “The SNP already has a cast-iron mandate for an independence referendum, based on our explicit manifesto pledge for the 2016 Holyrood election.So if the SNP wins this election in Scotland, the question should not be to me or to the SNP – what will you do if Westminster refuses?”

    So, if the Empire says No to Indyref2.

    Apparently, the best answer Nicola and the SNP can come up with is:

    “Don’t ask me”.

  124. dadsarmy says:

    @Dr Jim
    I don’t mind genuine unionists, out in the open unionists, standing up for their beliefs and perhaps with a bit of a panic at the moment.

    It’s the fakes treating people as though we’re stupid and believe them when they invemt reasons this final 5 weeks to try to stop people from voting SNP when we’re so close to the finish line.

    Because I openly say I don’t support everything the SNP do, and am known for being very critical, I’ve been actively out saying to Indy supporters:

    “If you hate the SNP hold your nose and vote SNP on 12th December – for the last time if you like – but do it this one last time”

    and there’s a good few who’ve said “OK, I’ll do it”.

    If the SNP are going to perform for us, we have to perform for them.

    One last time 🙂

  125. Robert Louis says:

    Call me dave at 957pm,

    Exactly, yet take a look to see how much coverage the downgrading of the Britnat economy actually gets, compared to the total LIES spouted (and repeated ad infinitum by the propagandist BBC) about an independent Scotland in 2014.

    Fact is the UK economy is now much worse than ANY of the unionist LIES about an independent Scotland from 2014. Yet Labour and the Libdems (the red and very YELLOW tories) are happily fighting to keep Scotland ruled by the Tories in England.

  126. boris says:

    By the war end total Scots deaths exceeded 180,000, (including many who died from their wounds after the war ended).

    A nation with eight per cent of the overall population of the British Isles sustained 15 per cent of the casualties.

  127. Robert Louis says:

    Dads army at 1006pm,

    Yip. Totally agree. As I posted earlier today, NO POLITICAL party will provide everythingevery person wants – that is impossible. Telling folk to NOT vote SNP in this, possibly the most important GE in Scotland’s history, just shows some folk up for what their true intentions are.

    Their mask is slipping.

  128. Lukas Scholts says:

    Dadsarmy “Go on then, what’s your alternative? Do you have a plan?”

    I gave a suggestion.

    Maybe if you and others had independent minds and thought processes, we’d have a chance of having an independent country.

    Party loyalty means nothing to me btw. Less than nothing.

  129. Glamaig says:

    The SNP have worked for independence for 50-60 years. No other party did this, and we are now within touching distance. Thats why they have my loyalty.

  130. Col.Blimp IV says:


    That may well be the case, but it does not mean that the masses believe it to be so and does, not stop the Unionists denying that it is.

    And in a land where unwritten constitutions are held to be even remotely possible never mind one where the ruling Wesayso corporation insists that we actually have one, it is difficult to have any faith in the court’s ability to enforce it to our liking.

    My suggestion was intended more as a publicity stunt to increase awareness of our situation and highlight the absurdity of voting for representatives of the Uncle Tom Parties.

  131. dadsarmy says:

    @Lukas Scholts
    Fine, I guess I’ll have to spell it out.

    If the SNP don’t change their manifesto as you demand, and as I posted before, their manifesto (and note I said “their” not “our”) is about maximising the vote on 12th December, with a full 1/3rd of Sturgeon’s launching speech devoted to Independence and a specific paragraph about a referendum next year.

    So here’s where I ask a more specific question:

    If you don’t vote SNP on Dec 12th, alond with Grima Plookface, what’s your plan if say the SNP only get 29 seats or less, are jeered for “losing the election and their mandate to hold a referendum”, and Independence is dead in the water for another 312 years?

    Well? Is it to celebrate with some Tories like Second-hand Carlaw and BoJo?

  132. ScotsRenewables says:

    Lukas Scholts

    Massey Ferguson

  133. Lukas Scholts says:

    Col.blimp “when we are so close to the goal line“

    We aren’t. You might say I’m disillusioned but that’s better than being illusioned.

    Sturgeon has made clear that indyref2 has been de-prioritised. She’s also made clear that she will do nothing if WM keeps saying “no”. And with that she legitimises their position.

    The likelihood is that we will all be waking up to a Boris government after the election. It doesn’t matter how many seats the SNP wins on that fudged manifesto.

    What do those SNP MPs actually represent anyway? Something about Scotland’s voice, stopping Brexit, the NHS, wanting a voice at some Brexit table, maybe we should make our own decisions? Nothing.

    We are being dragged out of Europe by an extreme right wing government and this election is another opportunity lost.

    Btw, the suggestion that anybody needs to win 50% of the vote in a multi-party FPTP general election is really quite mental. It’s the sort of thing Sarah Smith would say.

  134. Col.Blimp IV says:


    I don’t think there is much chance of him owning up to that here and now.

    But I’m sure he will reconsider come the glorious day: when the alternative is a 25 year stint at peat cutting in a re-education camp in the middle of nowhere.

  135. dadsarmy says:

    Sturgeon has made clear that indyref2 has been de-prioritised.

    No she hasn’t, that’s a goddammed lie.

  136. dadsarmy says:

    @Col.Blimp IV
    Well indeed, the penalty for failure, and totally abject stinking and tiny-minded miserable and quite pathetic small brain failure at that, is severe. I daresay there’ll be a few defective defections coming up real soon now.

  137. Lukas Scholts says:

    Dadsarmy, why should I be expected to explain and account for a hypothetical outcome that’s completely unlikely — and negative — when you won’t even account for one that’s almost a certainty?

    And if you think the SNP would only win 29 seats on the manifesto I described, perhaps it’s you who has some explaining to do.

    Here’s a better and more likely hypothetical. Do you agree that having say 37 SNP MPs elected on a single-issue manifesto (indyref2) would represent something that nobody could ignore?

    I guess it comes down to this and I suppose with this I am addressing your hypothetical; I’d rather have 29 MPs on a ladder that I wanted to climb, than 54 on a ladder that meant nothing.

    The SNP, yet again, somehow, is fighting an election that it can’t win. By its own standards and definitions, this election has been reduced to absolutely pointless by the SNP.

    I don’t even know if I’ll vote. Who cares? It means nothing. It’s a fudge.

  138. ScotsRenewables says:

    Lukas Scholts

    John Deere

  139. Colin Alexander says:

    Quoting Nicola’s own words from Dad’s Army’s link:

    “The SNP already has a cast-iron mandate for an independence referendum, based on our explicit manifesto pledge for the 2016 Holyrood election”.

    A Holyrood mandate has nothing to do with a UK GE.

    It’s called emotional blackmail. Misleading the electorate.

    It’s also a cover up of the failure of the SNP to seek a separate independence mandate at this GE via the elections of MPs.

  140. Golfnut says:

    @Col. Blimp 1V.

    No argument there, they have been denying Scotland’s Constitunional position for the last 300 years with the assistance of those uncle Tams, even more so now with a complicit and bias media. But no matter how much they deny or denigrate our position it does not alter the fact or truth of the matter. Educating the public as to their true constitutional rights is long overdue and I admit your point passed me by, but I believe the purpose of the celebrations regarding the Declaration of Arbroath are at least in part intended to do just that.

  141. Shug says:

    I really wish the snp would stop talking about any conditions for a coalition. It just gives the unionists a stick.
    They should just say wait and see
    Focus all arguments on Westminster wasting the oil money and winding down of the Scottish economy and the worst pension in Europe
    Talking conditions now when not knowing the outcome is as whinney at flower of Scotland talking about “your wee bit hill and glen” or send him homeward to think again when the country bottled in in 2014
    All words must focus on Westminster’s handling of the Scottish economy

  142. dadsarmy says:

    I don’t even know if I’ll vote

    That’s the spirit, Carlaw the 2nd. Genuine Indy supporters take note!


  143. Shug says:

    I am also fed up hearing Scotland won’t be ignored
    It will until the people grow a pair of balls
    And they deserve to be ignored!!!!!

  144. Lukas Scholts says:

    Dadsarmy, I listened to her speech the other day. Independence was last on the list of priorities. Sorry for not being swayed by the impassioned tone and innuendo; I’ve heard that stuff all too many times.

    You’ve yet to answer my question, though; what difference will it make if the SNP have say 50 MPs in WM on this manifesto instead of 34? Boris is going to day “no”.

    And it will be Boris saying it — the incumbent government gets first crack at forming a majority in a hung parliament. The idea that we could form an alliance with Corbyn and get where we want to go, “if only we had enough MPs in WM”, relates to a situation so unlikely that it merits being called dishonest.

  145. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Lukas Scholts

    “Btw, the suggestion that anybody needs to win 50% of the vote in a multi-party FPTP general election is really quite mental. It’s the sort of thing Sarah Smith would say.”

    If you present yourself to the electorate promoting a single issue and are the only party endorsing it – anything less than 50% is a fail.

    By the way, I do believe that is how the SNP SHOULD approach all Westminster elections in the future, preferably under an Indy coalition banner – Just not this time – far to short notice for such a monumental change of tack.

    An IndyRef every 4 or 5 years until we get the right result, with the Yoons unable to moan about the electorate being all referendumed out.

    P.S. Have you ever been known as Rufus T. Firefly or Alfred E. Newman?

  146. dadsarmy says:

    (from Sturgeon’s campaign launch) “The SNP already has a cast-iron mandate for an independence referendum, based on our explicit manifesto pledge for the 2016 Holyrood election”.

    (CA) A Holyrood mandate has nothing to do with a UK GE.

    You’re funny 🙂

    Now tell me, who introduced the Referendums (Scotland) Bill and who along with the Greens has passed it for debate – and where? Is it:

    a) the SNP at Holyrood?
    b) Jo Swinson on the the Dark Side of the Moon?
    c) Carlaw Jackson in his laundry basket?
    d) Reginald Logjam in the back seat of Corbyn’s Reliant Robin?

    For a bonus point, who and where will be actually launching Indy Ref 2?

  147. dadsarmy says:

    @Lukas Scholts
    You’re missing the point, probably not by accident. I’m not the problem here, I’M VOTING SNP on DEC 12th. Whether or not it does any good is beside the point, it does no harm.

    Anyone who doesn’t vote SNP on the 12th Dec may well be doing harm, and most certainly is doing no good. YOU said you might not bother voting – YOU are the problem. There is no possible good in not voting SNP, it does nothing, nothing at all.

  148. Lukas Scholts says:

    It’s noteworthy that the media is giving the SNP an easy ride these days. Like me, the BBC Scotland bosses seem to have come to the conclusion that they are harmless as long as they stay on their current course. They didn’t need to rig the QT audience this week.

    Even Sarah Smith seemed enthusiastic about Sturgeon’s strategy of sending as many SNP MPs to Westminster as possible — on a fudged manifesto — because, to paraphrase, “it could make a real difference if there’s a hung parliament” (so unlikely an outcome that it qualifies as a lie in my opinion). Brian Taylor came out minutes later with the same sort of praise.

    When those folks are your side, you really should know there’s something badly wrong.

  149. Fireproofjim says:

    Glad to see the Greens are not contesting Pete Wishart’s seat. It’s a start. But what’s the point of them contesting any seat in the General Election in Scotland when all that will happen is that they will certainly lose all their deposits and weaken the independence cause.
    If the SNP lose seats thanks to their intervention they will anger Independence voters for nothing. It’s so short sighted.
    A far more intelligent strategy is to urge their supporters to vote SNP this time, thus gaining the moral high ground and the gratitude of the SNP voters. This gratitude would undoubtedly be evident at the next Holyrood elections and the first elections to an Independent Scottish Parliament.
    That’s where the Greens should focus.

  150. Lukas Scholts says:

    “Anyone who doesn’t vote SNP on the 12th Dec may well be doing harm, and most certainly is doing no good. YOU said you might not bother voting – YOU are the problem. There is no possible good in not voting SNP, it does nothing, nothing at all.”

    The exact saying arguments and expectation of loyalty that worked so well for Scottish Labour.

    It would be so easy to spin that around on you and argue that blind loyalty does more harm than good but I learned many moons ago that there’s no point in debating with religious zealots.

  151. Colin Alexander says:

    Dadsarmy said:

    Now tell me, who introduced the Referendums (Scotland) Bill and who along with the Greens has passed it for debate – and where?


    a) the SNP at Holyrood prior to the 2019 GE, so electing SNP MPs has NOTHING to do with that.

    For a bonus point, who and where will be actually launching Indy Ref 2?

    Answer: I honestly don’t know if it will happen or not.

    I think the most likely answer is that the SNP will try to legislate to hold an indyref in the expectation, and with the result, that the Empire will block Holyrood from holding an indyref.

  152. Al-Stuart says:

    I just read this whole thread – excellent drawing by the way thankyou Mr Cairns.

    As far as this General Election goes, I am utterly bewildered and have switched off of politics for the past several days, fully intending NOT to vote. This hurts because people have died so we have the right to vote.

    Just happened to stop by WoS for a spare few minutes to enjoy Chris Cairns work.

    Then started reading.

    In this thread, a golden nugget of words shone through.

    @dadsarmy posted something that resonated. Hit the spot. Asks those of us with doubts about the SNP just now to keep the faith for a little while longer. Hold the nose if needed, but we should vote SNP. In answer to @dadsarmy…

    “OK I’ll do it”

    Simply because it makes sense. Any other political party would be a disaster for Scotland.

    I am ANGRY with the SNP at the moment. Am fed up being labelled ANTI SNP as I am far from being anti-SNP. For sure, in my mind the SNP really need to improve their game. Maybe 12 years in power is taking its toll.

    Have had harsh words with @dadsarmy before, but he is right in what he writes. Well worth “bumping what @dadsarmy wrote…


    Dads Army says…

    Because I openly say I don’t support everything the SNP do, and am known for being very critical, I’ve been actively out saying to Indy supporters:

    “If you hate the SNP hold your nose and vote SNP on 12th December – for the last time if you like – but do it this one last time”

    and there’s a good few who’ve said “OK, I’ll do it”.

    If the SNP are going to perform for us, we have to perform for them.

    One last time ?

  153. Lukas Scholts says:

    Here’s the SNPs list of “demands” for this election, tsken from their website. They don’t seem to have a manifesto published as yet. Note the order of the demands, order matters;

    “We will demand:

    – a real end to austerity with new investment to support public services and create opportunities for our young people; and an end to billion pound bungs to the DUP at the expense of Scotland and other parts of the UK;

    – powers over migration so we can grow our population, not see it decline as a result of a hostile environment policy that harms our society and our economy;

    – the immediate devolution of drug laws to allow us to better tackle the public health emergency we face;

    – powers over employment law so we can protect workers’ rights and increase the living wage;

    – real action on climate change – demanding that the UK goes further and faster and matches the scale of Scotland’s world leading ambitions;

    – an end to the two child cap, the rape clause, and an end to the inequity of universal credit which is pushing so many families into poverty;

    – no more nuclear weapons on the Clyde; and

    – the right of the people of Scotland to choose our own future.”

  154. Velofello says:

    I’ve only ever voted SNP, I’m unswerving on my wish for Scotland’s independence, and yet, I watch, listen, and read the SNP’s performances at Westminster and wonder… have the SNP settled in comfortably there? Complying with the silly procedures?Meekly accepting the insulting exodus of Tory MPs when Ian Blackford rises to speak?

    Is AUOB the civil expression route to independence, not the status quo Westminster obedient SNP? The SNP had +50 MPs and achieved little at Westminster, what will another +50 achieve? Should our once elected MPs decline to attend Westminster and sit in Holyrood?

    Rules are for the guidance of the wise, and the obedience of fools.

  155. Col.Blimp IV says:


    Some people believe that an independent Scotland would be economically more viable and vibrant than it is now and has the potential to become a land of milk, honey, and opportunity.

    Others that we would have the ability to create a more equitable and caring society than the UK could ever hope to become.

    To others, projected social and economic changes are not so important, it is a self-respect thing, they are Scottish for better or worse, it is the ability to choose one’s own path that matters, not what you think lies at the end of it.

    However any 1, 2, or all three of these reasons dove-tail into your vision of a post-UK Scotland … Undermining the only Political Party that comes close to sharing your overriding objective will not help you achieve it.

  156. dadsarmy says:

    I’ve already posted elsewhere and here before now, that if the SNP don’t call Indy Ref 2 before 2021 with the mandates they have, they will have betrayed their manifestoes, shown themselves to be untrustworthy or have other priorities like bums on seats and short money at Westminster, and I’ll be looking for another party to vote for – FOR HOLYROOD in 2021.

    If Indy Ref 2 returns a NO then I will vote SNP in 2021. If they call Indy Ref 2 without an S30 and for some reason it gets struck down in the Courts, at least they will have tried to keep their promises and I will vote SNP in 2021.

    But in all cases I will vote SNP in 5 weeks time for the General Election; not to do so reduces their votes by 1, and reduces the chances both for Indy Ref 2, and for a YES vote WHEN it’s called next year. And I’m in a pretty safe SNP seat.

    The SNP get one more chance; they use it, or lose it.

    VOTE SNP on DEC 12th.

  157. Col.Blimp IV says:


    It’s not so much what more SNP bums on green benches will achieve – more the negative impact of sending fewer of the useless arses down there.

    But when the dust has settled on this campaign, it is beholding on us all to come down on the SNP bosses like a ton of bricks to ensure that if we have to endure another 5 years of Westminster rule … We will not tolerate another five minutes of Independence not being the SNP’s overriding priority.

  158. Anne Marie D says:

    We simply have no choice but to vote SNP if we want independence. Any reduction in seats will be thrown in our face as alleged proof that we don’t want another referendum.

    I do wish that SNP politicians would take every opportunity to point out that 56 MPS was extraordinary and a majority in a PR parliament is a miracle. 2 short of a majority is nothing short of a wet dream for the rest left to scramble about for list seats on woeful percentage votes.

    We are where we are. Nicola is a great First Minister in a stable country in peace time. Unfortunately we are in a war and she is struggling with how to deal with that. BUT there is no other way at this point in time than to vote SNP if you want independence.

  159. North chiel says:

    “ Anne Marie D@ 1258 a.m. “ NIcola is a great First Minister “ etc . A very astute observation Anne Marie D . Yes she is fighting a “ political war “ with one hand tied behind her back ( the propaganda disadvantage) . She needs all the support we can muster for her . You are absolutely correct “ there is no other way at this point in time than to vote SNP if you want Independence “ . Time to “ rally her troops” !

  160. twathater says:


    Just saw this on a facebook post linked I think to dadsarmy , honestly I tried NOT to laugh but was overcome wmwahhhhhhh

  161. twathater says:

    Me SORRY IT was Ronnie Anderson’s link

  162. twathater says:

    To Colin , Lukas ,Velofello and any others possibly thinking of not voting for the SNP in the GE , I agree wholeheartedly with dadsarmy and others , I am 68 and have lived under liebour governments in Scotland for most of that time , and far from getting us independence they couldn’t even run Scotland properly , they have presided over the dismantling and denigration of our country financially , emotionally and mentally

    They are the biggest reason and source of why Scots do not have the courage or belief that they can run their country properly by themselves

    They are the SOURCE of the mantra TO WEE, TOO POOR AND TOO STUPID TO BE SUCCESSFUL , they have encouraged Scots to embrace being inferior and downtrodden ( remember Lamonts conditioning slur ) , They have NEVER FOUGHT for and on behalf of Scots and Scotland , they have ACTIVELY hidden Mc Crone and other positives for Scotland
    I have made my bones about the SNP and the way forward mostly on this blog , but like others I will give them this last chance and vote for them because Colin , Lukas and others let’s be honest the alternative is MORE LIEBOUR and more corruption , brown envelopes , false promises and a slow lingering or fast death

  163. Iain 2 says:

    I agree with everything that twathater just said.
    We owe our kids and grandchildren a chance of freedom.

  164. Robert Louis says:

    The problem for the few who are saying they won’t vote SNP because of reason x, y, or z, is this. Things are not going to stay the same. In the election, if you don’t vote SNP, things will not go back to how they are now, when we can comfortably argue the details of SNP policy on this, that, or the next thing. Their is a storm coming.

    This is such an important election. It is not the time for protest votes. Such things are the stuff of student union politics and ‘fringe ideals’. I had always assumed that those posting on politics here, had moved beyond student union politics.

    To those specifically, and frankly, stupidly, arguing against voting SNP. Their will always be things that folk don’t agree with, regarding political parties, so it is lazy, lazy political discourse to merely say it is the SNP who have become ‘comfortable’ in their positions. Perhaps it is US in the indy movement who have become too comfortable?

  165. Robert Louis says:

    And, in follow up to my last post, with some recent comments, some folk who post on here against the SNP are starting to show their true colours. Masks, they are a-slipping.

  166. CaGey Bee says:

    Another in his sixties agreeing with twathater and Iain 2 we must escape from the cesspit that Westmister wants to make us

  167. Doug Bryce says:

    Anyone not voting for SNP is voting for the union. It really is that simple.

    It is clear this site has been infiltrated by some plants : they must be panicking!

  168. jockmcx says:

    venal flytraps

  169. scotspatriot says:

    If there are folks on this forum seriously thinking of voting Charlatan Labour, think about this ..
    Without poverty and despair, they’d be no Labour Party. ! The Labour Party think Poverty and despair is a gift from God !!
    Vote them out of Scotland, along with the other English Registered Parties, or you’ll regret it !!

  170. Effijy says:

    The Tories have the election in the bag.
    The Tories will have a solid majority that will pass many fascist policies and that will include driving Scotland into the ground stripping us of powers and dignity.

    The Tories have been a humiliating embarrassment showing astonishing incompetence while devoid of direction or basic negotiation skills.

    Labour have totally failed in nailing the Tories over a 4 year long Brexit fiasco.
    They have been failing, lying and abusing Scotland for 50 years.
    They have no talent and a whole series of Scottish leaders who couldn’t run a Bath.

    The Libs have never had a majority in over 100 years and it’s easy to see why.
    Jeremy Thorpe taking out a gay lover to stop him talking, Cyril Smith the most disgusting crimes
    Against Children, David Steele who didn’t want to report Smith and their Lord Reynard reported
    For a series of issues against female party officials which were dropped as his annul donations went up. Ironically Tim Fallon though gay people were an abomination.

    Greens, yes we do need to take immediate action against climate change but how many workers must use cars to support shifts and 12,hour days.
    How many would contemplate adding 2-3 hours in top to use public transport if it existed in line with their shifts?
    Life would be a 15 hour day, cook, eat, wash up and 8 hours sleep.
    That kind of pressure would destroy any family.

    SNP stopped the horrific council tax rises, bridge tolls, runs the most efficient NHS service in the UK
    fought to save our Steel Jobs, Prestwick Airport, Ferguson’s Ship yard etc,
    Free prescriptions, constructed new motorways, bridges and hospitals without crippling PFI and the big one for me, free University Education that starts at £28,000 in England for a 3 year course.

    I am against fascism, against political corruption that. abounds in Westminster and I will not be robbed of my dignity being a 3rd class Brit and I will not see my countries resources and Labour
    Being spent in another country.

    The one and only option is to votes SNP and be a strong and proud sovereign nation with a seat next to our European neighbours in the worlds biggest trading market.


  171. Rick H Johnston says:

    BBC Radio Scotland at 8 today.
    Five minute GE report from James Cusick.
    Every party mentioned except the SNP.
    Bias by omission.
    Swinson, Johnson, Corbyn, Brexit party.
    We’re treated like shit, and they want us to pay for it. Aye right.

  172. RM says:

    The Scottish government have to get control of their own media, the propaganda machine of Westminster will never stop, they’ve lots to lose, oil, vast renewable potential, fish, farming, whiskey, tourism etc, etc, etc aye we’re a poor country right enough and we should be glad that we’ve been kept from going down the drain by our lords and masters, that will be right.

  173. callmedave says:

    @Rick H Johnston

    Aye I was waiting for the Scottish sample results but none!

    However if there was a ‘poll blow to SNP’ in the data we would have heard it front and centre so don’t worry. 🙂

  174. winifred mccartney says:

    Who needs the Russians to doctor the elections when we have Nick Robinson and Andrew Neil – part of the ‘impartial’ bbc who would not know truth if it hit them in the face and only want their own kind of democracy the kind that is for the tax evaders and tax dodgers.

  175. Joe says:

    The problem with the SNP/Indy movement is that it leans too heavily left. One symptom of this is the knee jerk insulting reactions to anyone who tries to think differently. Watching responses to Colin Alexander reaffirms my point – soft ‘no’ people wont be ecouraged to vote for indy by totalitarian groupthink.

  176. Joe says:

    Go on. You can say something stupid now Robert

  177. brian lucey says:

    So what’s plan c? D?
    What if no S30 is granted by WM #and# a legal challenge upholds that?

  178. Colin Alexander says:

    Twathater @3.19AM

    Again we have British Labour discussing how they would exercise power their Imperial power over the Empire’s Scotland colony:

    British Labour might grant Scotland an indyref AFTER the next Holyrood election. British LibDems and British Tories say no to indyref2.

    The Empire Parliament retains the power to legislate over the heads of the people and Scottish Parliament. They have ALREADY exercised that power: Unelected British Lords, legislated to strip powers from Scotland’s Parliament: the devolution power grab.

    If the Empire Parliament / Govt block devolution indyref2 as they did with the Continuity Bill:

    When Scottish voters rightly ask the SNP: What then?

    Nicola says: don’t ask us, ask Boris. There is no answer forthcoming. To me that means: The SNP will do NOTHING.

    The SNP should be honest about that BEFORE the election, not leave us to find that out AFTER the election.

  179. Rick H Johnston says:

    BBC Question time from Glasgow.
    No discussion about ITV or Sky leaders debates excluding the SNP. WHY?
    Simple.. We now know the BBC are also to exclude the SNP from the main debate.
    Deeply worrying that we’re now seeing better together morphing into a blatant Stop Scotland campaign.

  180. sassenach says:

    Is 10am the shift time – seems odd that Coco, and joe appear as if by magic.

    The election is causing much panic in the opposition, good!

  181. Colin Alexander says:


    That you can only resort to insults, suggests to me you have no answer to: “What then?” when the Empire says: NO to indyref2 and drags us out of the EU.

    “Just keep voting SNP and the Empire will crumble” is an opinion,an opinion contrary to the facts.

    Say I and all the other critics of the SNP, hold our noses and vote SNP at this GE because we believe in Scotland’s sovereignty and Scottish democracy.

    What then from the SNP? Five more years of SNP of outrage from SNP MPs at Westminster and on Twitter?

    Is that all the SNP have to offer? Is that all the SNP CAN offer? We should be told, instead of more empty rhetoric and manifesto hopes that the SNP know they cannot deliver at WM.

  182. galamcennalath says:

    Re debate exclusions, the SNP should be seeking an interim interdict to prevent broadcast in Scotland.

    They say only Corbyn or Johnson can become PM, but this isn’t a presidential election. Voters don’t get to choose PMs, only MPs from parties.

    And …. BIG AND …. neither Lab nor Con have a snowball’s chance of actually winning in Scotland! They will be lucky to keep the seats they have.

  183. Bob Mack says:

    We most certainly will NOT achieve Independence by voting Labour,Tory,or !ib Dem,or for that matter abstaining or spoiling our vote.

    There is only one wzy at this time, and I think you know that. Things may change,but not for now.

  184. K1 says:

    You’re so full of shit Coco, speculative arse gazing hand wringing cringe making abject negative spinning shit.

    And that’s just a sub sample of the shit you are full of.

  185. Republicofscotland says:

    Brillo (Andrew Neil) slated for posting doctored video of Ian Blackford on his Twitter feed.

    Neil eventually deleted it but did not apologise.

  186. Iain mhor says:

    Classic kiddy-oan proposed legislation emanating from whichever mafiosi thinks its in charge this week, in the form of WABs and ‘Constitution Committee’ reports.

    My take in a single sentence:

    A Bill proposing Acts, which specifies amendments to Acts are not required to adhere to Parliamentary scrutiny (up to and including the Act which so specifies) and uses the Parliament’s claimed paramount sovereignty, as the power which enables the Act to ignore said Parliament’s procedures, in order to implement the void powers of an extinguished Parliament and apply it to the current Parliament, in order to have the power to act unilaterally; which is roundly criticised by ‘Peers of the Realm’ as being undemocratic and unaccountable, because that’s their prerogative.

    Pretty much just putting in writing, what has always been the case. It’s all invented nonsense, so the plebs don’t think they are living under a tyranny of idiocracy.
    The only difference to Scotland; is that instead of bothering with any of the kiddy-oan Acts and Legislation requiring votes of consent to “Act for Scotland”, it can be done unilaterally without scrutiny. A mere formality and change of procedure, not of outcome.

  187. Dr Jim says:

    Think of the SNP as a stick of Celery, maybe you don’t like the idea of eating it but you get your health back and before you know it you realise you actually enjoy Celery

  188. Ottomanboi says:

    The word independence ought to be on the lips of every SNP candidate in this Westminster election. Nothing else matters, for without it we are effectively powerless, weak, defenceless and every other synonym of impotent.
    Should the SNP scoop the majority of Westminster seats, they ought to stay at home. Trooping down to London like good little Brits sends out entirely the wrong message.

  189. Joe says:

    @ Dr Jim

    Its a decent analogy youve made but for a few things. If the SNP was of the same stripe it was around 2014 there would be zero problems. I also believe that indy support would be holding consistently at 55% plus at this point.

    The current crop of identitarians, radicals and globalists are just too much for many to swallow. We arent talking about itsy bitsy pieces of unpopular legislation here and there, maybe a bit of a incomprehensible strategy for gaining independence. I said it a while ago that many SNP supporters were increasingly holding their noses and voting for them despite the nauseating virtue signaling by the SNP upper echelons.

    What we are seeing from the SNP is major attacks on the fundamentals of our civilisation and the rights of citizens powered by the votes of those who want to see Scotland becoming independent.

    The little signs were gender balanced cabinet (that swings both ways – if 80% of the most competent candidates were women there would only be 50% getting a seat. Its fkng lunacy.) The first ministers constant feminist virtue signalling – even going to the point of sending hundreds of thousands of tax payer pounds to support oppressed women (proper religious based oppression) in an Islamic NUCLEAR POWER. Banning free ‘unhealthy’ foods. Raising prices on alcohol to protect people from themselves. These are just a few.

    As I have also said once a group starts in this righteous path of social justice it goes into a purity spiral and simultaneously takes up mutually exclusive causes – defending the way conservative Islam works while ‘championing’ womens rights. Or the transgender issue and self ID.

    Yes. The Transgender issue and self ID. Why a party who has to struggle to get as much support as possible, against already intense propaganda, for the good of its countries future could push what is an attack on the fundamental rights of half its citizens to their own spaces and privacy is beyond me. its utter insanity and its going to hurt them, it will hurt the indy cause and it will hurt Scotland.

    Of course im lying. I said its ‘beyond me’. It isnt beyond me because I understand that radical leftists operate this way. Theres a constant hunt to support the next most oppressed group and to attack those who they deem not as oppressed as haters and bigots. They decide what equality means and they decide who has to be sacrificed and who doesnt. This is why in 2016 loudly and constantly promoting ‘equality’ for women went to utterly throwing them to the wolves while ‘bravely standing up for the rights of the trans community’.

    We who see this for what it is are not impressed. In fact we are rather nervous about this. Either they are utterly incompetent or they are ideological radicals pushing an agenda that turns normal healthy society on its head.

    You might want to not see it or pretend its not there but we do. We arent simply going to vote for that shit ‘just because’. Id suggest that any of you who cant see that are either deliberately kidding yourselves or are plain stupid.

  190. mogabee says:

    If only the real ‘race’ was as well drawn as this!!

    Spot on Chris 😀 😀

  191. Dan says:

    Colin Alexander says: at 10:59 am

    “…suggests to me you have no answer to: “What then?” when the Empire says: NO to indyref2 and drags us out of the EU.

    “Just keep voting SNP and the Empire will crumble” is an opinion,an opinion contrary to the facts.

    Say I and all the other critics of the SNP, hold our noses and vote SNP at this GE because we believe in Scotland’s sovereignty and Scottish democracy.

    What then from the SNP? Five more years of SNP of outrage from SNP MPs at Westminster and on Twitter?

    Is that all the SNP have to offer? Is that all the SNP CAN offer? We should be told, instead of more empty rhetoric and manifesto hopes that the SNP know they cannot deliver at WM.

    C’mon Colin, you’ve chopped and changed your position like a whirling dervish for this coming GE – From not voting SNP – To voting SNP on an Indy mandate (with a gerrymandered Westminster voter franchise) – and now it appears you’re back to not voting again.
    Word on the street is that due to your perpetual spinning, energy engineers are expressing an interest in mounting you on a shaft connected to a fuckin generator to produce leccy, as well as housing you in a heat exchanger to harness all the hot air you’ve been producing.

    Anybody that bothers to take a mild interest in what’s actually going on in the UK with regard to politics can see the machinations of due process take time to implement and be countered as the various positions and factors come in and out of play.
    There’s shitloads of relevant stuff going on that we can see, and goodness knows what else behind the scenes as we try to untangle ourselves from this undemocratic union.

    SWIM suggested you should take a line or two of Slow so you can chill and re-sync with the reality and pace of what we are dealing with rather than pontificating on the sideline continually hurling distracting shit bombs onto the field of play.

    So with regard to the questions you ask in your post on what then and what can the SNP do.
    Do you seriously think the pro-Indy cause, both politically and morally, will in anyway be strengthened by a significantly reduced number of SNP seats and vote share for pro-Indy parties at the coming GE?

  192. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    There is nothing wrong at all with not voting SNP. That’s an individual’s choice.

    Where it become highly suspicious is when we have someone posting day after day, sometimes hour after hour, explaining in excruciating detail, from every conceivable angle, why they’re not voting SNP, but then signing off with “But what you lot do is entirely up to you, of course”.

    No, these bombardments on the country’s highest-profile indy site are designed specifically to persuade others not to vote SNP. The claim that they don’t care how others vote is simply not true.

    And they are bombardments. They reek of obsession, at best.

    Some of the others commenting briefly about not voting SNP are believable. But not the site’s resident… well, it’s hard to improve on ‘Lord Haw Haw’.

  193. Confused says:

    on this solemn day, let us remember the brave sacrifice of the courageous men who gave their lives to (almost) regain our freedom

    let us salute


    – these balls-of-steel hot-shots flew in at 500mph, at zero feet, to attack the imperialist forces, armed only with dumb, gravity bombs – and had the fuses been more reliable, then the falklands war might have been quite a different story

    THATCHERISM then dies, thrown in the dustbin of history, labelled as a failed experiment of the early 80s; and by now we are living in a totally different world, one in which the last 35 years has NOT been one of relentless one-way warfare, of crushing down, of rolling back, of taking ever more, of giving less

    – never forget the character of the scumbags you are dealing with, and if you waver think of the fantastic movie “If …” – the final scene with mick travis on the roof, and the girl with the revolver (christine noonan) showing us all, just how it should be done

    – look out for the last attempt at DEVO-MAX and “Federalism” at 01.55 in the clip.

    Oh Christine … !! – the strawberry girl … the sugar lady !!! – sadly dead; a wee tribute

    all political discussion now is superfluous beyond


    – and hold yer nose, if you need to

  194. carjamtic says:

    RoS @11:27

    It is not lost on any of us, we have all recently witnessed Westminster’s continuous othering/alienation of the Scottish Parliament or Scotland’s representatives at Westminster.

    All a blatant attempt to permanently subordinate the Scots and to prevent them from ever reaching their true potential.

    The only rational conclusion is that the UK is already over, England has already untied the knot and this GE and Indyref 2, is a different proposition entirely.

    Scotland: Subjugation or Independence?

    There is no middle ground here, it is not business as usual, either way the vote goes, there is no UK anymore it is gone, finito.

    The sooner people in Scotland recognise that England is already Independent the better, it will save everyone a lot of time and effort, that can be better spent in saving Scotland’s Democracy.

  195. Dr Jim says:

    @Joe 1:16pm

    Your mistake was in your second sentence, where you said *I also believe*

  196. Fireproofjim says:

    You really are.
    You imply that you would really have liked the forces of the Fascist Galtieri regime to have killed a lot more British sailors.
    Regardless of who was in charge politically, (and I have no time for Thatcher), the Argentinian regime were filthy Neo-Nazis who tortured and murdered thousands of left wingers and union members and invaded the Falklands simply to divert attention from their economic failures.
    Their downfall was to be welcomed.

  197. Joe says:

    @ Unionist Media BDSM club

    …and why shouldnt people explain why they wont vote SNP in excruciating detail?

    If the SNP stood on a primarily Independence mandate and tried just to maintain simple governance while doing so you would have a point.

    They havent and the reason SNP supporters dont like the excruciating detail is because there is a solid underlying point to it that only the most fanatical can deny.

    What boggles my mind is that you are supposed to be getting people into the concept of independence and perhaps into voting SNP – im not sure how pretending that people who have their issues with it are somehow either dishonest or stupid is helping.

    But then, thats how mindless radicals work. That’s why the SNP will disappoint on 12th December and thats why you will all be wondering ‘what went wrong?’ afterwards and shouting down the people who are trying to tell you the ugly truth.

    Anyway, shift change here at Canary Wharf. Some other operator will be on to replace me.

  198. Doug says:

    Vote SNP on December 12th

  199. Dr Jim says:

    It’s not about voting SNP it’s about voting for your country
    Weve had Labour, we’ve had Tory, and Liberal Democrats and we don’t like them because they wrecked our country, and we know this becuae our fathers and mothers before us told us the same thing. and all of them complained about London and Westminster politics draining Scotland but they had no choice back then there was no Scottish party to help fight Scotland’s corner

    There is such a party now and they’re the SNP and in the last ten years alone they have advanced Scotland to the fore in the world and brought us to within touching distance of regaining our country

    Now there are plenty of people who don’t like that and that’s their right to have that opinion so they nit pick over the most trivial issues they can find and magnify them to ridiculous degrees to make their point, but the problem for them is their point is ridiculous

    Regaining your country’s Independence isn’t about some birds that got in a window in a hospital or something a builder didn’t do correctly or not enough room to ride a bike on a road then blaming it all on a political party because you don’t happen to agree wih Independence for your country, if you don’t agree with Independence then just say so and stop trolling the internet with nonsense and lies about minutiae that has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue

    If you want the same as our ancestors had then just say so and be done with it because therein lies the truth, Scotland was crap under the government of all London politics, we were robbed drained chucked on to the scrap heap generation after generation and left to rot until the SNP became a strong threat to the Union, from that moment on a parliament appeared for Labour to control us better but the people said *let’s give this new party a go* and we did, and in the last dozen years Scotland has become something in the world where before nobody cared if we lived or died

    Today Scotland lives and don’t they all know it

    The SNP did that, we liked it and we voted for more of it and that’s why Independence is inevitable, because more of us will like it and put away the subservience and the sectarianism created by London to keep us that way just like every other country the Empire ever controlled, and now most of them are free and the Empire congratulates them on their freedom every year

    Which car will we drive to Independence, well it really doesn’t matter does it as long as it works

    I see no other cars available

  200. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    I have no issues with you, Joe. I have a vastly different take on the world, and on Scottish politics too, but I detect no dishonesty in your posts. I disagree with virtually everything you write, but enjoy reading your contributions here, because they’re honest, AFAICT.

    Unlike this site’s resident bullshi* merchant.

    You’re not stupid, Joe. You can see the absurdity of this person’s volume of posts about why he’s not voting SNP, followed by the repeated implications that he doesn’t care how others vote. Of course he’s trying to influence others, and the denial of this is blatantly dishonest. How far his other dishonesties go, only he can tell for sure.

    So sure, keep posting your own reasons not to vote SNP. I won’t agree with them, chances are, but they won’t hum the place out.

  201. remo says:

    I remember ages ago reading some research about how human beings in general manage to come up with a reasonable, sort of common sense consensus on ethical, moral and legal issues eg. age of consent, genetic modification, cloning, homosexuality, abortion laws and many others up to and including traffic speed limits. This cheered me up no end. I am assuming any contentious issues facing the Scottish Government will follow this kind of path and you probably know some issues. It may take some time and some sorting out but chucking out the baby with the bath water is just plain silly. Stopping supporting the SNP because of some issue which is still to be sorted is just plain silly. Vote SNP and Yes and have your common sense say afterwards.

  202. dadsarmy says:

    That’s why the SNP will disappoint on 12th December and thats why you will all be wondering ‘what went wrong?’

    Even if that was true it wouldn’t matter would it? Compared to the unthinkable situation which the Unionist would love, where the SNP “lose the election” and hence the mandate for Indy Ref 2 in their and the media eyes.

    Voting SNP on Dec 12th is a shot to nothing at worst, but at best it’s the making of Indy Ref 2 in 2020 – #indyref2020 as promised by Sturgeon repeatedly – and a YES vote.

  203. dadsarmy says:

    Curiously there actually is another reason for getting the most SNP MPs and the most votes for the SNP on Dec 12th, a financial one bearing in mind that the SNP had to bail out the official YES campaign to the tune of £500,000 or something like that after 2014. And that the SNP would be using their funds in 2020 for Indy Ref 2 if when it is held in 2020.

    General funding for Opposition Parties – the amount payable to qualifying parties from 1 April 2018 is £17,673.65 for every seat won at the last election plus £35.30 for every 200 votes gained by the party.

    I’ll let someone else work out the difference between say 56 MPs and 1,454,436 votes in 2015, and 35 MPs and 977,569 votes in 2017 for the potential 2019 figure.

    Think of all that extra loot to spend on the SNP campaign for Indy Ref 2. And all of it from Westminster, oh the glorious irony! Anyone got a calculator handy?

  204. dadsarmy says:

    Top of the mental heid £750,000.

  205. Dr Jim says:

    How many fewer countries would there be in the world if they had all laid down and said to their conquerers or invaders or owners OK just keep taking and doing what you want we don’t mind

  206. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Unionist Media BDSM Club @ 14:26,

    Sorry, but I flat disagree. Lord Hee Haw has truly outed himself these days, no doubt from a growing sense of panic, but for a long time he was fairly subtle, whereas Troll Farmer Joe is another beast entirely. “EU Baaad”, links to breitbart (FGS!), and “Putin the People’s Friend”. He’s a nasty piece of work who thinks he can play cynical mind games with folk he clearly assumes are a bunch of easily-distracted morons.

    Like dadsarmy @ 22:06 yesterday (a fine series of nihilist rebuttals there, BTW), I don’t mind genuine unionists, out-in-the-open unionists, but what we’re getting here these days are complete shit-stirring low-lifes.

    “Honest”? You have to be joking. He’s as bent as a piece of fusilli.

  207. Joe says:

    @ dads army

    Ok lets break it down simply-

    Im not saying: ‘dont vote SNP’

    Im saying: ‘Here are some reasons many people might not want to.’

    That really is something worth considering. In fact, its the most important consideration there is in winning political support

  208. galamcennalath says:

    The UK only had one thing going for it, it was in the EU with all the benefits in individual rights, standards, protections, safe food, and all the best trade deals already in place.

    Take that EU membership away and the Union brings absolutely no benefits to Scotland. None, nada. London itself has done absolutely nothing in recent times for Scotland.

    They cream off our resources and give us back a portion of our own money, they override our democratic will, they rule us with no mandate, they block our right to make decisions.

    What’s difficult to accept?

  209. Famous15 says:

    If you say your not voting SNP on December 12 th AND you say you support independence well I am sorry but that males you an obvious plant.

    I feed my plants with bullshit.

  210. Dr Jim says:

    Here’s the BBC for you

    A programme called Hardtalk interviews a Chinese official and demands democracy for the Hong Kong democracy protesters, then half an hour later the BBC interview a Spanish journalist about what Madrid is going to do to stop the Catalonia Separatists

    Totally unbiased and impartial language there from the BBC

  211. Republicofscotland says:

    Dr Jim @4.39pm.

    Lets not forget the forced out of their country by Westminster Chagossians or the illegal holding of Julian Assange for their US buddies, which the state broadcasters bias shows through.

  212. Colin Alexander says:

    I am asked a reasonable question:

    “Do you seriously think the pro-Indy cause, both politically and morally, will in anyway be strengthened by a significantly reduced number of SNP seats and vote share for pro-Indy parties at the coming GE?”

    Straight answer: No, I don’t. The problem is I am not convinced an SNP win will in any way strengthen the indy cause either. I see it as yet another wasted opportunity.

    What could be a major step forward is reduced to WM party politics.

    It can be argued: Why should the SNP be seeking an indy mandate at the GE? They have the indyref mandate already from Holyrood.

    They do but, indyref via Holyrood remains a grey area. Legally untested as to whether the Scottish Parliament can hold one. Legally untested whether the result would be binding if allowed to hold one.

    This raises the issues around Scottish sovereignty and legal means of ending the Union.

    Do Scottish MPs currently represent Scotland’s sovereignty? Does the SP? Do the sovereign people exercise sovereignty when they vote in elections to Holyrood or only to UK Parliament?

    Or did we relinquish our sovereignty when we became part of the United Kingdom and it cannot be regained without UK Parliament’s permission?

  213. Gary45% says:

    Hey Joe, Its time to get a chip for your other shoulder, you are going round in circles with all the weight on one side.
    SNP = INDEPENDENCE. No Ifs, No Buts, No Argument.

  214. mr thms says:

    Republic of Scotland @ 11.27 am

    A dissolution of a state is rare but when it happens it is usually by mutual agreement. Czechoslovakia for example.

    So, ending devolution would be a mutual decision. It could be to replace it with something else. Self-governance?

    I spotted this with regard to Wales.

    It is from 2017

    “Labour for an Independent Wales’ first event earlier this month seems to have succeeded – at least in catching people’s attention and creating a debate.

    One set of arguments presented at the event that created particular interest was the arguments of Lord Elystan Morgan, relating to the idea of Wales’ attaining Dominion status.

    Much of the response has focused on questioning the significance of what to some appears an archaic notion.

    But before addressing this issue, it is worth pausing to ask why Lord Morgan thinks such a step is required.

    The answer, in short, is that devolution could be in jeopardy because of Brexit.”

    It is an interesting read.

    In 2020, Wales will receive the same devolved powers that Scotland currently has.

    I looked up and found the ‘British Empire’s’ preferred method for countries becoming independent was to grant Dominion status. It did not always happen that way. India demanded and got independence. But it led to its partition.

    “Responsible government: precursor to Dominion status”

    “What was significant about the creation of the Canadian and Australian federations was not that they were instantly granted wide new powers by the Imperial centre at the time of their creation; but that they, because of their greater size and prestige, were better able to exercise their existing powers and lobby for new ones than the various colonies they incorporated could have done separately.

    5They provided a new model which politicians in New Zealand, Newfoundland, South Africa, Ireland, India, Malaysia could point to for their own relationship with Britain. Ultimately, “[Canada’s] example of a peaceful accession to independence with a Westminster system of government came to be followed by 50 countries with a combined population of more than 2-billion people.””

  215. Dr Jim says:

    The Sunday Post has a big picture of current branch Labour manager Rudyard Leftwang with the text *RL tells Independence supporters No more Independence referendum for years if Labour win the GE*
    Of course RL didn’t tell any Independence supporters anything, he asked the Sunday Post to print that, there’s a difference, especially when Labour in Scotland are on around 12% of the vote and he’s already written his CV out for a job with Jim Murphy or Kezia Dugdale on the back of what’s going to be Labour’s worst result in forever

    The other point that’s wrong with that is everybody knows RL gets no say in what happens in the Labour party in England, and you would think that if anything should tell all Labour supporters that’s the very reason for Independence for Scotland, because even their own party doesn’t listen to them

    No matter which party you support when it comes right down to it you’re a verminous Scot that Westminster doesn’t want to listen to even if you think by waving their Union flag it makes them care, It doesn’t

    So become Independent and at least once a year they’ll be forced to acknowledge you for doing that, like they do for every other country who told them Bye Bye

  216. Iain mhor says:

    We do all remember that a referendum is merely a poll, a census, a question.
    An entire political campaign and UK General Election, is to be fought shortly; with the tenet of the majority of UK political parties being: “Asking a question in Scotland is not allowed, it will be prohibited”
    Whatever anyone’s views on politics and democracy – is that not extraordinarily odd?

    It’s a question (ha!) I’ve been putting to people often. I’m not sure quite why I receive a lot of blank looks, perhaps it’s tiny wheels turning…

  217. Capella says:

    As an Englishman in England I can only marvel that Scotland, uniquely in the world, is a nation which hosts three foreign political parties which are dedicated entirely to maintaining rule, exploitation, extraction, and domination by a foreign nation which holds Scots in contempt

  218. Joe says:

    Thanks for highlighting my arguments folks:

    Famousfive: ‘If you say your not voting SNP on December 12th AND you say you support independence well I am sorry but that males you an obvious plant.’

    Gary45%: ‘Hey Joe, Its time to get a chip for your other shoulder, you are going round in circles with all the weight on one side.
    SNP = INDEPENDENCE. No Ifs, No Buts, No Argument.

    While I accept that these 2 might not be exactly the brains of the SNP operation they have been very kind to highlight my point. Which is: You are not winning people over who rightly are suspicious of the SNP and their recent performance.

    In my view you are all yet to catch up with the damage the SNP has already done to itself and partly to the cause of Scottish independence. Its only because the political field in Holyrood and Westminster is so bare of other possibilities that im not predicting that they lose half their seats on Dec 12th.

    In reality I actually hope that after Alex Salmond has won his trials and exposed the perpetrators as political assassins he comes back to Scottish politics. He’d get my vote. Not that odious, self-righteous, hypocritical 2 faced little cow Sturgeon and her government of identitarian leftists and globalists.

    Short of that Mr Campbell should change his idea of ‘winning unionist list seats’ to ‘win every seat that can be won and boot the fkrs out of government, out of Holyrood and out of Westminster’ would be nice to see Mrs Black trying to get a real job. While im on the right (conservative) side of the political spectrum a wings party would get both my votes and some campaigning effort. Id then happily have the argument about the EU after we win.

    There. That’s the chip on the other shoulder properly settled in.

  219. Famous15 says:

    As I said,feed them bullshit!

  220. Republicofscotland says:

    mrthms @5.23pm.

    I’m under the impression (and I might be wrong) that the EU forced Westminsters hand on devolution, for Scotland, Wales and NI.

    Again I may be wrong but was it not the EU Monitoring Committee on Pluraist Democracy that gave the Westminster the ultimatum to create domestic adminstrations that met with EU values, very reluctantly Westminster began the process of creating devolved adminstrations after pressure was put on it to do by The Council of Europe.

    What makes you think once we leave the EU that Westminster won’t begin to syphon powers away from Holyrood to the newly created hub, with its 3000 staff and only cabinet office outside London, why else would the hub be there if not to impede on Holyrood.

  221. george wood says:

    If you don’t have on party approved SNP blinkers, then there are limits to giving support to a political party. If the SNP were to change to the Blood and Soil type of Nationalism, then I wouldn’t vote for it. Those on here with the deluxe SNP blinkers would no doubt still be telling us to vote SNP anyway.

    The SNP’s current position on woman’s rights, makes it impossible for me to vote for them. Since I’ve voted for the SNP for forty plus years, it makes me angry that they have put me in that position.

    As it turns out, I will put an X in their box, but it will be for Joanne Cherry not the SNP.

    At a time when we have a great chance to gain Independence, it is unforgivable for the SNP to want to flush the rights of 50% of the population down the toilet.

  222. Famous15 says:

    The SNP have not finalised policy on self ID.

    The SNP have rejected any sort of “blood and soil nationalism”

    The SNP is internationalist in outlook.

  223. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    10 November, 2019 at 3:10 pm

    You’re saying Lord Haw Haw is more honest than Joe, even though you acknowledge how “subtle” he has been, and has only recently been less subtle about his true intentions? Hardly suggests honesty to me.

    His politics may be less abhorrent than Joe’s (who knows what LHH’s politics really are), but he’s more honest? Really?

    We’ll just need to accept we’re miles apart on this one, or more likely that we’ve crossed wires. Nobody’s claiming Joe’s a nicer person than LHH. But he’s certainly more honest in his conduct here.

  224. Terry callachan says:

    VOTE SNP every time until Scottish independence is achieved

  225. Golfnut says:

    @Famous 15.

    The Scottish Gov also suspended the Self ID idiocy almost 2 months before the UK gov(torys) got round to it.

  226. RM says:

    The Scottish government have to be more radical and start demanding our rights, they have to show other Scots who don’t vote for SNP or don’t vote at all that they are working for the whole of Scotland.

  227. jfngw says:

    Time we stopped calling them unionist parties, they are colonialist parties controlled from another country, democracy means nothing to them. The house jock runs deep for some in Scotland, they would flog you to death for the approval of their masters.

    I await the book ‘From Tenement Scot to House Jock’, he has so little self respect he would think it was a compliment. Or ‘Scots Language, My Part in its Removal’, by a well known Labour House Jock.

  228. Republicofscotland says:

    Jfngw @8.11pm.

    Indeed spot on, they remind me of Boswell, saying to Dr Johnson. “Yes Sir I’m Scottish I can’t help it.”

  229. Gary45% says:

    Hey Joe Its a sack of spuds you need.
    You don’t get it and probably never will.

  230. Ian Brotherhood says:

    ‘Should Patrick Harvie stand down candidates in those constituencies considered ‘marginals’ for SNP incumbents?’

    Yes 90%
    No 10%

    2,508 votes cast.

    Closes at midnight.

    Okay, okay, it’s *only* a Twitter poll, doesn’t mean anything. I get that. But what’s noteworthy is that the 10% who said ‘no’ didn’t provide a solitary reason for their choice.

    A few pedants questioned my ‘blaming’ Harvie, saying that it’s down to local branches to make the decision, but no-one has provided evidence to confirm that.

    There’s a lot of goodwill out there for the SGP, but the message from the comments is stark – do the decent thing, don’t stand against SNP in the marginals or you’ll be punished at the Holyrood elections, big-time.

  231. Dr Jim says:

    If Jo Swinson is re-elected and the Greens are found to have been the difference like they were when Ruth Davidson was elected I can’t see anyone ever again from East Dunbartonshire voting Green or having a good word for them

    Swinson’s vote amongst the elderly in East Dunbartonshire was what swung it last time for her after the Lib Dem vile campaign against John Nicolson but the younger folk have cottoned on to Swinson here and her vote can be shifted even though the Libs will throw endless money at it

    The Greens are hindering the cause here and they must know it

  232. Robert Louis says:

    So, according to the lying Tories, Labour’s spending plans will host 2.1 trillion billion bazillion gazillion pounds, probably. The media duly reported it, and duly reported it being rightly rubbished by everybody with half a peanut for a brain.

    However, the media is just being used. The entire operation for this election by the lying Tories is based around issuing provably false and frankly ridiculous statements. Their will be many more statements by the Londion Tories telling us that any other parties policies will cost billion trillions and gazillions of pounds, probably. To Dominic Cumming and his chums, that is all part of the plan. The fact it is a lie is irrelevant, as the media will forget each statement after a couple of days. However, over the next few weeks, it will generate an ‘impression’ in the minds of voters that Labour will cost them money.

    That is what is being done. The statements are, of course utter bullish*t, but that doesn’t matter. It will still get dutifully reported by the media.

    And THAT is the ACTUAL problem. Note one serious so-called journalist has refused to state the rubbish from the Tories. Every single one of them reported, instead of actually thinking about just WHY such a demonstrably fake statement was being issued by the Tories. The press are meant to hold politicians to account. Instead they are merely re0guritating any old p*sh they are sent in press releases.

    No wonder America has a dangerous racist, homophobic clown as president. No wonder English folk keep electing extremist right wing bullies like Johnson to office. So- called journalists are simply NOT challenging any of this rubbish from political parties. When the Tories release clear and obvious bullish*t, the likes of the BBC or SKY news should IGNORE it.

    An actual REAL journalist with half a brain, would have put that Tory press release in the bin.

    Can we maybe just have ONE actual journalist, who will do their job properly, instead of buffoons just reading out press releases that are obviously false? Just one.

  233. Colin Alexander says:

    The Labour Party bigwigs are morons, bampots, incompetents. That’s the polite version. Ruled by the London Little Englander / BritNat Empire mentality and hatred of all things Scottish indy.

    All they had to do was promise indyref2 by a certain date and the SNP would be deid in the water.

    With Labour’s shift to the left under Corbyn’s socialist manifesto, compared to the SNP’s shift to the right with their Neo-con, “we love the bankers and austerity for working class people” economic policy discussion paper for indyScotland – combined with extreme left-wing fringe woke politics – the SNP would deid in the water. Back to single figure MPs.

    Just as well for the SNP that British Labour are so incompetent in Scotland. Run into the ground by careerist, corrupt Blairite, British Empire toadies licking the “hand” of their London masters.

  234. Graeme says:

    “Just as well for the SNP that British Labour are so incompetent in Scotland. Run into the ground by careerist, corrupt Blairite, British Empire toadies licking the “hand” of their London masters.”


    And yet only recently you were suggesting we all vote for them

    More flip flops than a flippy floppy thing 🙂

  235. Colin Alexander says:


    Only very briefly, until my faither nearly fell off his chair at the suggestion, as he said: “HOOSE O LORDS”! as a shorthand of reminding me how British Labour continues to betray, not only the people of Scotland but the people of England and Wales too by joining the British ruling-class Establishment.

    I was reminded of GB Gordon Broon and his Vow, Red Tory “I did not vote for the Iraq War” John Robertson, Margaret Curran, Tom Harris, and just for Stu: Kezia Dugdale etc etc and my stomach turned.

    It shows the level of disillusionment with the SNP that that thought even crossed my mind.

  236. HandandShrimp says:

    Apart from the Yougov late October poll still a surprising lack of detail on Scottish voting intentions. There seems to be multiple UK polls almost daily.

    A cynic might say they are loathe to ask.

  237. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I’m with you there, HandandShrimp.

    Are they very afraid?

  238. Rick H Johnston says:

    There are more Labour Lords than Tories.
    Check online if ye dinnae believe me.
    More hereditary Tory Lords though as it is seen as their birthright.
    Wi Labour lords/ladies it’s seen as ambition.
    Mair elevation than revolution then.

  239. galamcennalath says:

    “The Scottish Conservatives have made a direct pitch to Labour voters asking them to support their party in a bid to stop another independence referendum.”

    Strange times indeed.

    There’s a wee flaw in the Tory plan – almost half of Labour voters say they are now YES. So perhaps Labour folks are just as likely to vote to ensure there’s another independence referendum!

  240. Colin Alexander says:

    If only Alex had asked Alistair Darling in 2014:

    “What’s in it for you Alistair? Are you going to the House of Lords after this as your reward from the British Empire’s ruling class for your treachery against the sovereign people of Scotland?”

    Alistair is now Lord Darling of Roulanish in the House of Lords. Vermin in ermine goes the saying and I cannot argue against that, especially when I think of him.

  241. mr thms says:

    Republicofscotland @ 5:23 pm

    Thank you for your reply.

    It was announced recently that an agreement has been reached between the Scottish and UK Government’s on the powers returning to Scotland from the EU.

    Apparently, an independent third party will arbitrate on disputes. More details on the agreement will be announced at the end of the year.

    With that in mind, the timing of the opening of a UK Civil Service Hub in March, to house 10 UK Government Departments and a Cabinet Room, with another hub coming to Glasgow, will not be a coincidence.

    “When the UK leaves the European Union (EU), subject to the terms of our future relationship with Brussels, powers exercised at EU level will be ‘repatriated’ to the UK.

    Many of these powers, for instance, those relating to immigration, trade and competition policy, will become the sole preserve of Westminster.

    In other areas, where EU law intersects with the legislative competence of the devolved institutions, powers currently exercised by EU institutions will transfer to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.”

    The Scottish Government will want Westminster to devolve ALL all of those powers, that are will become the sole responsibility of Westminster. As well as the examples listed, they will also want VAT.

    The article goes on to say..

    “Section 12 of the EU Withdrawal Act provides that control of areas where EU and devolved law overlap will pass by default to the devolved institutions.

    However, it also allows UK ministers to freeze the devolved governments’ ability to legislate in those areas where it believes legislative common frameworks will be needed. In those 21 areas, the UK Government will be able to set UK-wide regulations until new common frameworks are agreed.

    Ministers will have to consult with their devolved counterparts, and report to the UK Parliament every three months on where and why they have made such regulations, and on the progress made towards agreement on new UK-wide frameworks. ”

    There is a two year window after Brexit for making changes, or amendments to the current laws, after which the law freezes for five years and responsibility reverts to Holyrood.

    So I do not see Brexit as an excuse for a power grab. I see the Scotland Act 2016, Article 50 (With its five very important parts) and the EU Withdrawal Act 2018, as anothe part of a very long road map leading ultimately to the dissolution of the UK by mutual consent. Just like Czechoslovakia.

  242. Joe says:

    Vox in Spain getting more than 50 seats. The populists are on the rise. Opening the borders in 2015 and forcing mass migration onto areas with high unemployment has destroyed the EU in the long run. With the left so sickeningly demented and off track and abandoning poor Europeans theres only one way this is going – hard right.

  243. Rick H Johnston says:

    Should that no be Lord Darling of the sleekit vow.
    Baron Darling (robber) would have been more appropriate as he stole Scotland’s democracy in 2014.

  244. HandandShrimp says:


    Vox took seats from the centre right not the left. The election has solved nothing with the socialists still by far the biggest party and looking to form a coalition.

  245. Famous15 says:

    Colin Alexander you are an obvious wee sleekit little lying bastird.

    You are a UNIONIST but are too cowardly to nail your UJ to the mast as you see every day as you go in to work for the BGHQ PsychoOps.

    Let us know your feeble arguments agin Indy. Let it rip in an honest fashion. Plant.

  246. Artyhetty says:

    ALL! There is a right wing coup happening NOW in BOlivia! Go watch show yr support please at

    Or on twitter it is desperate, it is violent and it is sickening in 2019!

  247. Artyhetty says:

    They are burning Bolivia! They are destroying the people’s democractic right to choose their own government this is so so scary! Get on twitter, show your support, it’s crucial.

  248. dadsarmy says:

    Supposedly there were election frauds by Morales, and he resigned after an “international audit”. Aparrently Morales agreed and promised to hold another election.

    Quite frankly not knowing the politics of Bolivia at all, I wouldn’t support either side. Sorry. It’s Independence for Scotland my focus is on, and let iScotland’s foreign minister and international relations experts take care of that stuff.

  249. Capella says:

    @ Artyhetty – yes, another S American democracy falls under the usual circumstances. I expect having lots of valuable minerals has been their downfall. Better to leave extraction of oil, silver and lithium to the corporations.

    (By usual circumstances I mean fomenting popular unrest, demonstrations and a military coup to “restore order”.)
    We can determine the ones to approve of by how much air time they get.
    Hong Kong = good
    Barcelona = bad
    Venezuela = good
    Chile = bad
    Brazil = good
    France = bad

    …and so on.

    Every day gets more like living in an episode of 1984.

  250. Joe says:

    @ Hand and Shrimp

    Yeah. The far right taking seats from the centre right is nothing to be concerned of. Especially when the ruling party is already hard left. The centre disappears and what remains are 2 incompatible groups. Lovely.

  251. Terry callachan says:

    jfngw….I agree with you

    They are colonialist political parties not unionist
    They have no interest in standing up for Scotland
    Their aim is to keep Scotland subdued so that England can do what is good for England

  252. Terry callachan says:

    Two comments from the Financial Times readers about the election results in Spain.
    Interesting but typical of the English view

    “Am I alone in seeing here a parallel with events in the UK, where, I believe, a noisy but unsuccessful separatist movement in Scotland was inadvertently instrumental in initiating a more powerful and dangerous outbreak of nationalist sentiment in England, the consequences of which are not yet clear? “

    “think it was Brexit/EU that brought out the national sentiment … Scotland has been banging on about another referendum for ever and no one really takes any notice. “

  253. Abulhaq says:

    England needs Scotland as a trophy status symbol.
    England needs the territory of ‘Great Britain’ as a psychological comfort blanket.
    Why anyone Scots or Welsh would buy into such a mindset is an indicator of the colonizing of the mind that is British Unionism which historically, viscerally is about England, its identity, language, culture, presence, status, worldview and perceived ‘clout’ and soft power.
    Why do the little Brits among the Scots and Welsh not get that?
    Speak for England?……Not bleedin likely squire!

  254. Colin Alexander says:

    The British Establishment’s focus is on stopping Corbyn and his Corbynista socialist wing of the Labour Party.

    He’s the real threat to the integrity of the British ruling class and British Empire elite in their heartland – England.

    Any threat from the SNP was snuffed out four years ago when Nicola “devolution” Sturgeon took over. Now the SNP’s Queen and King joint monarchs lead the indy movement round in circles. Assimilating the SNP, and Scotland, back into following the “British Way” of doing things: British party politics at Westminster.

    The only potential threat the SNP poses nowadays is in backing Corbyn, which is unlikely, as Scottish MPs rarely, if ever, tip the balance in deciding who forms the UK Govt.

    This is counteracted by the SNP driving votes away from Labour, as England baulks at the thought of Scottish MPs having influence over the English Govt.

    The potential threat from “Independence Alex” giving real leadership of the campaign for independence has been dealt with.

  255. Gary45% says:

    After a weekend of mind numbingly predictable wireless (radio for you young ones), with certain presenters making paranoid attempts at linking the SNP with “Uncle Vlad”, expect the establishment lackeys to run with Alexi Salmondov, and Nikola Sturgeonov, until we are Independent. Its just more predictable, feeble attempts by the establishment to the “look there’s a giant squirrel” whilst trying to make Westminster look like the “mother of all parliaments!!” pathetic.
    Vote SNP = Independence.

  256. Famous15 says:

    That Libdems Skills Wallet of €10000 for people in England is brilliant. Now who said they would abolish tuition fees in England and then voted against it?

    I see wee dishonest Colin is back.Has he no shame? Get yourself a decent dishonest job in the BBC why don’t you?

  257. highseastim says:

    Interestingly the tories are calling the green party cowards for not standing in seats, whilst they are shouting for Labour voters to vote tory.
    Not forgetting being in cahoots with libdems and Labour to oust Alex Salmond and seemingly OK with the uup/dup carve up.

  258. Phydaux says:

    I like that Nicola is already ahead in this particular cartoon race. I don’t expect any reasonable debate in this election…there never is during UK election campaigns.I can almost smell the fear from the colonialist politicians in their fight for power and control over Scotland. It is fuck all to do with good governance.

    Our nation, culture, dignity and pride were subjugated and crushed by the “ British” Empire, imprisoned by our own history and brainwashed by the most deadly efficient propaganda machine the world has ever seen…state sanctioned violence on an epic scale, the M.O. of the “British” Empire

    The infamous “British” stiff upper lip is born of our imperial past. Boarding school culture and traumatic childhoods played out into dominance of other countries and cultures, giving the “ buttoned-up” approach inherent value. People in “ Britain” paid a huge price internally for all those suppressed emotions. It’s a lot easier to stay asleep than to wake up.

    It is remarkable therefore that the Indy movement, the SNP and the people of Scotland have achieved so much to get us all here, still fighting the next battles to come. I hope that the passions simmering away since 2014 will be unleashed during Indyref2. We will be 50% and counting at the start of that particular race.

    “ You are not defeated until you give up the fight. You give up the fight by giving up the dream”
    “ A revolution is when you change your thinking”.
    Jose Mujica, who served as the 40th President of Uruguay from 2010-2015. A former guerilla with the Tupamoros, he was imprisoned for 12 years during the military dictatorships in the 70’s and 80’s A truly inspirational leader who donated 90% of his salary to the poor, rejected the presidential palace to live on his small farm on the outskirts of the capital and did so much more to improve the lives of ordinary people.

    My take on this election is to KISS ( keep it simple stupid ) and vote SNP

  259. auld highlander says:

    Seeing as it’s so quiet this nice wee video of the goings on in the mother of all corrupt parliaments will make you smile on this Monday morn.


  260. Dr Jim says:

    In 2014 David Cameron openly asked Putin to interfere in Scotland’s referendum as well as Barack Obama, Queen Elizabeth, Manuel Barosso who wasn’t even employed by the EU at the time, then asked every supermarket to make a negative statement on Independence, and still not content with that Cameron contacted every *celebrity* sports star, buisiness leader who would listen to do the same thing on a daily and nightly basis on TV, then arranged for as many English MPs to come to Scotland and walk around in a big gang to attract even more anti Independence news

    So who interferes in whose politics the most, the nasty furriners, or England
    England tactics has always been the same, if they can’t shoot you to death they’ll gossip you to death

  261. Elmac says:

    @ Colin Alexander 8.45

    Now now Colin. You know full well that no sane person would post what you said – unless of course they were being paid to do so. What is the going rate these days?

  262. galamcennalath says:

    Dr Jim says:

    In 2014 David Cameron openly asked Putin to interfere in Scotland’s referendum as well as Barack Obama, Queen Elizabeth, Manuel Barosso

    Yup. Interference in Scottish affairs from outside Scotland is fin and dandy. Interference in Westminster affairs from outside the UK in terrible.

    In EURef, the EU kept out of the debate in the UK. Very commendable, by my reckoning.

    In IndyRef, the UK was all over Scotland like a dose of clap!

    Instead of it being Yes Scots versus No Scots, it was Yes Scots versus the UK with a few No Scots fronting for them them!

    Hypocrisy and double standards – the UKOK way.

  263. Dr Jim says:

    Apparently Scotland’s smallest most insignificant political party who are selected in last place by Scotland’s voters, yet in England are the third *main* party want to give England’s voters a lot of money each

    Isn’t it amazing how the smallest dregs of Scotland’s politics have such a huge influence over England and yet the largest party and actual third biggest in UK and government of Scotland the SNP get no say at all

    One wonders if any *journalist* would consider pointing that out to England’s voters

  264. Bob Mack says:

    *First they laugh at you”. Yep wev’e all seen that at Westminster. “Then they ignore you”, __Again we have seen Unionists get out the chamber when the SNP members rise to speak. Coupled with a media blackout this is certainly ignoring you.

    The last bit of Ghandi’s strategy is perhaps the most interesting. “Then they fight you”

    Boris has to nullify the voice of Independence somehow. I refuse to believe he wil! do nothing. He has to close down what he considers to be the hotbed of division that is Holyrood. If not actually closing it ,he must strip it of enough powers to make it irrelevant

    Then what do we do? I guess we fight back .

    We are the last phase before we win

  265. Lochside says:

    I don’t watch BBC now as I stopped the licence, but I still have to listen, to keep up with the lies, 0f BC Radio ‘Scotland’.
    On Saturday, Shereen Nanjiani (M.B.E. for services to Broadcasting) has a chat show, which is habitually dominated by virulent Unionists such as the disgusting liar Tom Harris.

    This occasion, it was Moray ( check the spelling) Macdonald, a ‘marketing’ expert who displayed his true credentials early on by being an apologist for Rees Mogg’s inhuman comments about the Grenfell victims and lying about the ‘fake video’ of Blackford being ‘silenced’ over the SNHS, the one that ‘BRILLO’ took down from his twitter feed, but did not apologise for.. describing the SNP and him as ‘gaffes’, a deliberate piece of distraction and character assassination, done without a word of response from the others.

    Only Paul McNamee (Big Issue Ed.) challenged him,and only about Grenfell, but ended up blabbing about B.L.A.B. , of whom he has previously shown himself to be a supporter , despite residing in and working in Scotland, and by the sound of his accent is NI born and unlikely to have grown up in East Belfast;

    The third member of the panel was Mona Siddique, a Professor of Islamic studies at Edinburgh Uni. She actually stated that the only party that was pro remain was the FIBDEMS! Someone off microphone could be heard whispering ‘SNP’. This she totally ignored.

    To compound the unreality of it all, another Edinburgh academic, a psephologist , came on to discuss the polls. Naturally, it was all UK until an aside was made that there were no up to date ones for Scotland , because ‘it costs too much’! None of the assembled talking heads challenged this.

    The impression, yet again, is of choreographed propaganda produced and dressed up as ‘debate. The silence when ‘Moray’ rubbished the SNP and Blackford with the obvious lie about a ‘failing SNHS’ was deafening in its implication: collusion and silence by people who do know better, but don’t care enough about freedom of speech or democracy. They are straw men and women and have no integrity or honour. The BBC is our biggest enemy and is still as strong as ever in its relentless objective of destroying our cause.

  266. Robert Louis says:

    I see SKY ‘news’ is still trying to push the notion that this is ‘the brexit election’, especially in England. Wonder why SKY would do that? Maybe because on that ONE subject the Tories have their best chance of success? Yip.

    Just watch as every broadcast, their presenters drop in the phrase ‘the brexit election’. Forget the NHS, education public spending, welfare, transport and society, because SKY news want you to forget about all the Tory failures and think about just one thing instead, brexit.

    SKY news = FOX news.

  267. kapelmeister says:

    The Tories describe the Greens decision to not put up candidates against Pete Wishart and Stephen Gethins as “cowardly”. So say the same Tories who are not opposing Swinson.

  268. kapelmeister says:

    Colin Alexander must think himself a skilled propagandist who daily saps the morale of Yes supporters and SNP voters. On the contrary, he offers a masterclass in how not to influence people.

  269. ronnie anderson says:


    That guy is showing his true feelings unlike the Trolls ( man from C&A ) with there subtle language . Share it

  270. Old Pete says:

    Scotland is a country, many voters should remember that. A country that should have the right to break up a Union if it wishes too. Anti Scots should be made to take this on board and own their distaste for their country and it’s people. Time for the softly softly approach is over, folk either care about Scotland or they don’t.
    If you don’t vote SNP at this election you don’t care about Scotland as your country and if your vote goes any other way and we get tied to this vile English dominated state then you deserve all the shite that is coming

  271. crazycat says:

    @ kapelmeister

    I was told yesterday that the Tory candidate for East Dunbartonshire had indignantly tweeted that they had not stood down, and the wiki article ( includes her name.

    So either they back-tracked, or it was never more than a rumour.

  272. Capella says:

    @ ronnie anderson – ha! that guy is funny but a bit limited in the vocabulary department. Is he the English Minister for Cultural Affairs??

  273. kapelmeister says:

    ronnie anderson

    I wonder if he is Mark Francois’s Conservative constituency association chairman.

  274. callmedave says:


    Big Auntie news darn Sarf tidies up Boris’s haircut and gives him a new green and white 2016 wreath to lay at the cenotaph over a small 2019 mistake and has created a right kerfuffle over not very much! 🙁

  275. admiral says:

    kapelmeister says:
    11 November, 2019 at 10:59 am
    Colin Alexander must think himself a skilled propagandist who daily saps the morale of Yes supporters and SNP voters. On the contrary, he offers a masterclass in how not to influence people.

    He offers a masterclass in lack of self awareness and unknowing comedy.

  276. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    The “not very much!” you speak of @callmedave says at 11:39 am is called Propaganda.

    The BBC have been caught out apparently covering up a gaffe (which the BBC on behalf of the Poppy Police would have made a major news story of had it been Corbyn or Blackford).

    The archive footage would have had to be requested and edited in so not a wee mistake, but a deliberate distortion of the events at the Cenotaph yesterday.

    Folks down South are rightly calling this out.

    We in Scotland are used to BritNat Broadcastings Goebbelsesque propaganda.

    They are just waking up to it.

    It is also another useful example to use with Soft Nos to help remove the scales from their eyes.

  277. Gary45% says:

    Aye Ronnie. I saw the clip of this “Rocket” a while back, best just to laugh at these numpties.

  278. kapelmeister says:

    What would Lord Wreath have made of the BBC’s editing?

    I’ll get me coat.

  279. callmedave says:

    @Jockanese Wind Talker

    Aye I already get all that and it shows Big Auntie is complicit in false reporting of the news which we Scots know.

    The ‘not very much’ was a simple human mistake in protocol and if left alone would be no big deal.

    However I agree with you that if an SNP representative broke a protocol it would be unvarnished news.

    I believe there was much made of someone from the SNP wearing the kilt and some other part of the dress incorrectly at the cenotaph maybe two years ago. So it goes! 🙂

    Anyhoo! caught out they are.

  280. SO…. Will the Tories in Scotland now also accuse Nigel Farage and the Brexit Party of GROSS cowardice after announcing that they will not stand in any constituency currently held by Tories – thought not!!!!

    Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

  281. Scott says:

    I see that not standing in tory held seats has he been promised a seat in the Lords??

  282. Republicofscotland says:

    Ronnie Anderson @11.12am.

    He seems a lovely chap full of charm and warmth towards us Scots. lol.

  283. callmedave says:

    Hmmm! Is British Scunthorpe steel now ‘Chinese steel’?

    Scottish Labour should be told.

    Brexit party siren alert is reduced to accommodate the Tories and may be the death knoll for Jeremy’s Labour party chances.

    Jings! magic GB£1 rises worth EUR1.167 This while FTSE’s all fall

  284. Heart of Galloway says:

    Meg Merrilees@1.07pm

    Aye, quelle surprise eh? Nothing must be allowed to stop the Brexit bus getting “over the line” it would seem.

    This move was always on the cards – and sheds a very uncomfortable light on the Scottish Greens = current = position of standing candidates in 15 Scottish constituencies.

    Of those 15, 12 are SNP held with wafer-thin to narrow majorities.

    In another 12 (not all the same seats) there was NO Green candidate in 2017.

    It is perfectly true to suggest that not all Green voters would vote SNP in the absence of a Green candidate – but it’s safe to say that the majority would do so.

    This is going to be a desperately hard election as it is – the Greens should consider that should their intervention result in even one more unionist MP being elected the independence cause – and that of a tailored Scottish response to the climate emergency – would be damaged in that constituency.

  285. auld highlander says:

    Wonder how much nige is getting to drop contesting tory held seats.
    Promises of great riches beyond his wildest dreams perhaps.
    Fancy robes to ponce about in the mother of all corrupt parliaments.
    This so called democracy is rotten to the core and one day it will collapse and the sooner the better.

  286. robertknight says:

    “Wonder how much nige is getting”

    Not getting an embarrassing personal story plastered all over the front pages perhaps?

  287. msean says:

    So the UK suddenly finds out the BBC may be biased. *sighs* They were told about this for years,especially since the 2014 referendum,when most Scots came to realised it.

    Now we can all see why broadcasting will never be devolved,ever.It’s too important to give up control over.

    It’s like the Tory party has it’s own TV station that we all have to pay for,even those over 75.

  288. msean says:

    So the UK suddenly finds out the BBC may be biased. *sighs* They were told about this for years,especially since the 2014 referendum,when most Scots came to realise it.

    Now we can all see why broadcasting will never be devolved,ever.It’s too important to give up control over.

    It’s like the Tory party has it’s own TV station that we all have to pay for,even those over 75.

  289. Gfaetheblock says:

    Heart of Galloway

    Do you have links to the data that says that a majority of Green voters would go SNP?

    Actually the Brexit Party move makes the greens look good, who wants to be seen as a puppet of another party?

  290. Colin Alexander says:

    The outraged SNiPers moaning about the Greens no putting indy alliances ahead of party politics, are the same hypocrites who demand both votes go to the SNP at Holyrood:

    At the cost of potentially dozens of pro-indy MSPs for approximately three SNP List MSPs.

    Real SNiPers: Always rating SNP wins in British party politics as more important than Scotland’s independence.

  291. Dr Jim says:

    East Dunbartonshire’s my patch and so far I’ve heard of no Tory candidate standing against Swinson….yet
    The Greens are still standing though

  292. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Heart of Galloway @ 13:49:

    This move […] sheds a very uncomfortable light on the Scottish Greens = current = position of standing candidates in 15 Scottish constituencies

    Very true. Ultimately there’s nothing the rightwing care about more than achieving power. Because being righteous but impotent achieves nothing.

    No doubt there will be suitable payoff. “Arise, Sir Nigel.”

  293. Dr Jim says:

    Yep, Nigel Farage will be elevated to one of the great positions of state and be able to sell jewellery on QVC next to Michelle Mone claim £300 a day and get cheap dinners anytime he wants them, once he’s finished up with his current employer Donald Trump

  294. twathater says:

    Ronnie Anderson I think that may be a spoof video as i’ve heard the big chap has been first in the queue to APPLY for the New Scottish Passport when it is issued and his application is in for the New SCOTTISH BORDER GUARD positions

  295. galamcennalath says:

    This general election in Scotland isn’t about Brexit, it isn’t really about who forms the next government in WM, it’s the next step in the breakup of the UK.

    For all the talk (and action) relating to Brexit based tactical voting across E&W, everyone involved has a different agenda here. Can you imagine the Tories anywhere in E&W making it easy for LibDems? Similarly in 2017, it was pretty obvious that Labour with paper candidates and no local campaigning, conspired to assist Tories – they will do it again. Imagine that in E&W?

    Scotland is a different country, different rules apply, different policies matter, parties have different agenda. That in itself show the level of divergence which must, sooner or later, lead to Indy.

  296. Colin Alexander says:

    As the SNP stand for MANY policies, such as, primarily: devolution, stop British Brexit, gender self-id etc etc, and sometimes even independence.

    If this election was about Scottish independence there would be a YES alliance standing, for independence only.

    Seeking a mandate for independence. Nothing else.

    No Greens, No SNP. YES and only YES.

    But personal ambitions of the SNP and Green politicians are more important than Scotland’s freedom.

  297. Ottomanboi says:

    Scotland will not be independent without a struggle. The notion that a referendum is all that is required is rather naïve. I cannot believe that any in the SNP leadership actually believe so. The British state establishment will neither aid nor abet the dismemberment of its ‘patrimony’.
    Too much is at stake. Scotland dissolving the Union would be a slap in the face to England’s prestige and authority and would very likely ignite issues currently smouldering under the surface, the north/south divide, the mega problem of London, crumbling national infrastructure, the power/wealth democratic deficit etc.
    This election may turn out to be very dirty. The system is out to frustrate Scotland’s national ambition with a tried and tested, subversive ‘national’ narrative of its own.

  298. Dr Jim says:

    Tories in Holyrood threaten to report the FM for writing on paper then destroying it and demand all communications be emails for transparency

    The FM in the digital age has found a way to thwart the Tories from hacking into paper and they don’t like it

  299. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 16:02,

    While I don’t disagree about your main point that the electoral implications are very different north and south of the border, this election is very much about Brexit. How can it not be?

    Its premature calling at such time of year is a direct consequence of Brexit gridlock in WM.

    The foisting of Brexit upon a manifestly unwilling Scotland by any likely (or unlikely) resulting new UK government will be the most egregious example yet in the 300+ year history of the Union of unjustified and wanton abuse.

    More importantly even than our relations with the rest of the world is our ongoing relations with the rest of the UK while we remain within it. These high-handed “Henry VIII” powers and the powers conferred on UK ministers by Bozo’s version of the Withdrawal Bill pose the most significant threat yet to our ongoing democratic rights.

    I fear that the latter in particular is being far too easily overlooked. The fundamental nature of the Union promised so mendaciously back in 2014 will be forcibly morphed into something diametrically opposite: a unitary UK state dominated by right-wing English Nationalist supremacists. It is no exaggeration to say that the very existence of Scotland as a potentially independent entity could be irreversibly stifled by London fiat. And in the 700th anniversary year of the Declaration of Arbroath at that.

    So the stakes for us in this election brought about by Brexit couldn’t be higher. And our opponents are very evidently aware of that, as evidenced by a disengagement operation in full flow in Scotland plus a UK media censorship effort that is clearly designed to shut out our voices as much as possible.

  300. crazycat says:

    @ Dr Jim at 3.06

    Earlier today I posted a link to the Wikipedia page which identifies a Tory candidate, and gives a link to her twitter. This is “protected”, so I can’t read the tweet in which she allegedly refuted the suggestion that they had stood down, but she does describe herself as the candidate:

    That said, the council website has yet to list the candidates, so it could be a spoof.

  301. Dr Jim says:

    @crazycat 4:55pm

    If I was a betting man I’d be minded to bet that’s a paper candidate who won’t stand

  302. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Dr Jim looks like the Tories are going to give East Dunbartanshire a parachute paper candidate from Milton Keynes.

  303. Dr Jim says:

    There you go, great minds eh

  304. Mrs Ginger says:

    Have you watched the BBC Cymru series “Tourist Trap” series 2 episode 2. The characters have taken a DNA test to see how Welsh they all are. Very funny. Of course, they all look ridiculous when they are delighted to find out they are 80 per cent, 25 per cent, even 10 per cent Welsh. Because what is “Welsh”? And the same question can apply in Scotland – What is “Scottish”? Anyone know?

  305. Jockanese Wind Talker says:


  306. Mrs Ginger says:

    If we do achieve Independence for Scotland, what will happen the day after the Referendum vote?

  307. galamcennalath says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:

    While I don’t disagree about your main point that the electoral implications are very different north and south of the border, this election is very much about Brexit. How can it not be?

    Certainly Brexit caused it. And our current opportunity to achieve Indy is being driven by Brexit.

    However, my main point is that the ‘battle lines’ here have absolutely nothing to do with Brexit. Alliances, low profile campaigning, standing down, tactical voting …. here it’s all about the threat of IndyRef2 and thwarting it.

    BritNat politicians are fighting this election here in protection of their Union. As others have said, LibDems would rather see Scotland under Tory Brexiteers and in the EU on our own. And Labour similarly put the UK integrity before everything else.

    So yes the stakes couldn’t be higher for Scotland. Brexit is what kicked all this off, but it’s now all about greater issues here. In E&W it’s still all about Brexit and little else.

  308. manandboy says:


    Everyone should read this article, entitled “Democracy doesn’t matter to the defenders of ‘economic freedom’” by
    Quinn Slobodian (historian and author of Globalists: The End of Empire and the Birth of Neoliberalism)

    Here’s a flavour:-

    “Pinochet, Thatcher and Reagan may be dead. But economic freedom indexes carry the neoliberal banner by deeming the goals of social justice forever illegitimate and pushing states to regard themselves solely as guardians of economic power. Stephen Moore, who was a favourite earlier this year for Trump’s appointment to the Federal Reserve Board, put the matter simply. “Capitalism is a lot more important than democracy,” he said in an interview. “I’m not even a big believer in democracy.” Hong Kong’s financial secretary made much the same argument two weeks ago in London, when he cited the city’s top economic freedom ranking and reassured his audience that “alongside the protests, the business of business rolls on, unabated”.

    By colour-coding nations, celebrating victors on glossy paper stock and giving high-ranking countries a reason to celebrate at banquets and balls, the indexes help perpetuate the idea that economics must be protected from the excesses of politics – to the point that an authoritarian government that protects free markets is preferable to a democratic one that redesigns them. At a time when the casting of ballots may lead to changes that threaten the freedom that capital has long enjoyed, the disposability of democracy in the vision of the index is what haunts us, from Santiago to the South China Sea to Washington DC.”

  309. twathater says:

    Ronnie Anderson it seems that the vimeo video you posted has now been deleted , I sent the link to family some of them in engerland and they have reported that the video is not there anymore
    Also check out indy car Gordon Ross he has said that Mike Russell has now today stated that if doris continues to refuse a sect 30 agreement he will be SUED in the Scottish courts either by him or the SNP SG for blocking Scotland’s peoples right to determine their own future


  310. Jockanese Wind Talker says:


    White Helmets founder James Le Mesurier found dead in Istanbul (below balcony of hotel room)!

    BBC/MSM pushing Russia blame angle!

  311. manandboy says:

    Once it is appreciated that Neo-liberalism dictates UK Government policy, ie. for the wealthy few, not the masses, it is not hard to work out that there are two Brexit models.

    The first is the one Brexiters want and voted for.
    The second is the Brexit which the Neoliberal Establishment, led by PMJohnson, want.

    The difference is perhaps best illustrated by two views of the English NHS.

    Brexiters want a fully funded and fully staffed NHS.

    The Neo-liberal Establishment want to sell the NHS, and to keep the proceeds for themselves.

    The irony is that for many Leave voters, they thought leaving the EU would be punishment for the Establishment which had inflicted Austerity on them.

    They couldn’t have been more wrong.

    Staying in the EU was and is their only defence against the monied class, whose greed has grown over the years since Mgt Thatcher, and is now without bounds. The Ruling Class won’t be satisfied until they are all billionaires. At least.

    And their next big windfall at the taxpayers expense is the sell-off of the NHS. They hope.

  312. @manandboy,

    an unreported and unelected part of UK Government is the
    Government Lead Non-Executive’s,

    these are businessmen/woman who are attached to every Government department to `help` with policy making,

    these people are on the boards of some of the UKs biggest banks,supermarkets,accountancy firms and all aspects of retail,

    these people are headed by Sir Ian Cheshire ex B&Q,Barclay`s Bank and Guinness,

    while at Guinness he was Ernest Saunder`s executive assistant during the Distillers Company plc illegal takeover,

    (the one where Guinness manipulated their shareprice and Saunders got 5 years but was released early because Dr Patrick Gallwey said he had Alzheimer’s disease which after release he recovered from)


    this is big business controlling Gov policy for the benefit of big business and controlled by a man complicit in one of the shadiest deals in UK business,

  313. dadsarmy says:

    Well, quite a lot of us have complained about the Greens standing in marginals, seems they’ve listened, including Stephen Gethins seat:

    THE SNP has welcomed the decision by the Green Party association in Dundee and Angus not to field a candidate in the area.
    . . .
    It follows a similar announcement by the Greens in Perth and North Perthshire and in North East Fife.

  314. ahundredthidiot says:

    After todays news re Farage, this GE is all over.

    I genuinely feel for people in England/Wales, but it is time for Scotland to be selfish and get the flock out of dodge.

    There is, quite literally, no saving England from Herself.

    If the SNP are still wondering what the smell is…….it’s the bloody coffee!!

  315. mike cassidy says:

    So what was the origin of the Green Party story about putting candidates in SNP marginals?

    Was it an official statement or just spillage from Harvie?

  316. Colin Alexander says:

    If the SNP want to shut me up moaning about them in this GE campaign, the answer is simple:

    At the very least they should seek a GE confirmation to hold a SCOTLAND only indyref on independence.

    By that I mean:

    No s30.
    No permission asked from the Empire Govt, Empire Parliament or Empire political parties.

    A referendum run in Scotland, managed in Scotland, with the rules of the referendum made and enforced in Scotland.

    A referendum that respects the sovereignty and democratic right for Scotland’s people to participate in and decide the result of the referendum.

  317. K1 says:

    Fuck off Coco

  318. Patrick Roden says:

    Re: Boris the Buffons gaffe at the ‘laying of the wreath’

    The big clot only went and laid it upside down!

    So, the BBC couldn’t let the plebs know that jolly old Boris didn’t give a ‘rat’s ass’ for the war dead (do any of them?) so they used old footage from a few years ago in which he managed to put the thing the correct way up.

    An attempt was made by ‘Aunty’ to say that a junior technician has mistakenly added the wrong footage, but people who worked in editing suits called them out saying that this couldn’t happen by mistake.

    And still some people will trust the BBC.

  319. Effijy says:

    So Bojo the Clown has 2 Brexit Parties to command.

    Old Nige can look forward to a Knighthood from Betty
    And he may well get a wee job such as Scottish Secretary.

    They’re making lots of plans for Nigel.

    Fascist, Inglorious sworn to reign over us
    Right Wing Extreme.

  320. Elmac says:

    Colin Alexander
    @ 7.27

    Its that time again Colin. Enough lies and obfuscation for the day. Collect your money and crawl back under your stone.

  321. frogesque says:

    CA: 7.27

    Only place I see you moaning is on Wings.

    More whimper than warrior

  322. Dan says:

    I’d hope most Indy folks hold the view that we’d put environmentally sound protections and policies in place once we are freed from this damned union.
    Scotland is blessed with so many diverse resources that require to be protected as they will play a significant part in our future prosperity.
    We are however at this time currently hamstrung from doing more due to not having full control over the powers we need to address the issue now.
    So to the Greens out there, it has to be Indy first, and then we will all be able to properly start dealing with the problems and concerns your party and many others want addressed.

    I’ve said this before, but I’ll repeat it again as it is so important to me, and is one of the main factors that motivates me to get Scotland out of this corrupt and broken union so we can start to fix the damage and build a better future.
    It is an absolutely ridiculous situation that in a supposedly modern country, we do not have the proper infrastructure in place to correctly process the waste that our country generates.

    EG. Yet again I spent a couple of hours of my time this morning collecting and filling an estate car full of filthy, stinking fly tipped rubbish and old tyres that had been dumped along our country roads over the weekend.
    This fly tipping happens all over Scotland because the current systems are simply not adequate.
    This waste physically exists, it can’t Self ID as not being there, it was legal for people to buy the stuff in this country, therefore this country should be able to properly recycle all those products when they are no longer of use.

    Monetise the useful waste and we’ll have folk out there collecting it rather than dumping it along our roads, or our local authorities paying to put it in landfill.
    Plastic per kilo contains a similar calorific energy as a litre of heating oil.

  323. RM says:

    Scotlands not a modern country but we can be, a beautiful country, great people with a great future, to be a modern country we have to run our own affairs how can we when we’re shackled to a union which came about in a different age, medieval education, no running water, no electricity, no computers, no phones, no communication no votes, surely our Scottish law system can change with the modern way of life and surely they should be trying a lot more, something the people cannot see, is everything cut and dry?

  324. jfngw says:

    The Tory/Brexit parties Anschluss has arrived, now for the 1000 year reign. If we don’t get out now we probably never will.

  325. Colin Alexander says:

    It’s no the cauld or the wet that has the auld yins on Wings rubbing their sore knees with the loupin’ making them cantankerous:

    It’s the lifetime they’ve spent on their knees to the British Empire, girnin and greetin and waiting for permission for freedom, that’s given them the sore knees.

    Nicola’s knees are younger than yours; it’ll be a while yet before all her kneeling begging for a s30 will cause her sore knees, especially with good gel knee pads these days.

    They should rename “housemaid’s knee” as “SNP knee”.

  326. dadsarmy says:

    The thing is this Dan, probably quite a few of us have speculated what could be done in Indy Scotland with full control of powers and finances, and it’s surprising how much of that even for those of us who wouldn’t think of ourselves as Green apart from the recycling bins, are to do with – Green.

    What some (many) of us are looking for, is ways to boost our economy, the economy of a future Independent Scotland. Some of that comes down to leading edge tech, and where is much of that? Green. It’s the future “thing”. So wind, wave-power, heat pumps, hydrogen perhaps from electrolyis off-peak from the green energy produced to cover peak periods – and one I looked at a lot of years ago – CCS. With the capability to store the EU’s carbon dioxide in the North Sea, depleted oil wells.

    It means the Green party have got a whole load of interested people to tap on – after we get Independence and can afford time and money to pursue it fully.

  327. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    “Farage offered peerage…………….”

    Well FaRadge (no typo) will need a new job once the UK Brexits @auld highlander says at 8:55 pm

    So from being an MEP, taking the wages and pension for doing fuck all to a Title, £300 per day and a stoat coat in The House of Lords for doing fuck all.

    God Save The Queen and Her Fascist Regime indeed!!


  328. Colin Alexander says:

    Recently, I was talking to two life-long Labour supporting “socialists” who matter of factly dropped into the conversation that they would be voting Conservative – just to try and keep the SNP out.

    Sadly, the other “ism” means more to them than socialism: colonialism.

    Keeping Scotland under the Empire’s yoke.

    Much as I hate to admit it: I think speaking to two Tory voters has persuaded me to vote SNP.

    I put this as a warning too: this is what we face in the struggle for independence.

  329. call me dave says:

    Brexit party’s credibility has ebbed away a bit says Prof Curtis

    I saw the Farage story above:

    If the Peerage story is true ( I’ll wait until auntie tells me)
    their sense of entitlement ( no pun) and disrespect for the population is cocking a snook at all voters. It would be overt
    political fraud.

    Brexit standing in remainer seats (including Scotland) may help the SNP slightly if some Tories are minded to put their X in that box and splinter the Tory vote.
    On the other hand there are SNP leavers who might lodge a Brexit vote swings and roundabouts. How it will pan out…Pffttt! 🙁
    Lib/Dems furious at the BBC for exclusion from GE debate 🙂

  330. Dan says:

    @dadsarmy at 9:53 pm

    Absolutely. I’m well aware what I stated isn’t a new unique innovative pioneering thought or perspective.
    I’m just an individual that in the course of my life has had the opportunity to work in a few different industries and witness the continual development and evolution of engineering technologies and equipment utilised so they can be more efficient in the ever changing tasks they need to accomplish.
    It is incredibly frustrating when you see how complex innovations that could offer a positive effect on our society can be borne from a idea, and then morph into a working reality… Then you look back at our politics that are stuck in the quicksand of an archaic systems that stifles our abilities to progress in any meaningful way.

    I’ve long felt that politics is all to often perceived in a grey boring manner, which in our current situation isn’t far off the mark. I can’t help but think it would be a lot better if it could be marketed in a way that the general less politically engaged population could see as facilitating more tangible results that they can better relate to.
    That’s what I try to do with my selling of the positive aspects of Scotland governing itself, and you’re absolutely correct that the renewable energy sector has massive potential to be developed further which is a subject I regularly discuss with folk.

    You mentioned wave power, but go lower, because once you are through the surface splash zone which may be bonkers big waveage or mirror flat depending on meteorological factors, the tidal current below is consistent and ever present as long as the moon is in the sky, so the generating machines can be built to work and operate efficiently within those far more consistent parameters.
    Whereas wave and wind power generators have to be built to cope with the extremes of weather events so inevitably compromises have to be made in their construction to cope with those extreme outlier events.
    Another good thing is that the tide times vary all around our massive coastline too, so that would be useful for balancing generation.

  331. Joe says:

    So thats Denmark stepping up patrols along the Swedish border due to gang violence spilling over into Denmark. These native northern Europeans are just the worst. Cant wait for Scotland to be independent in the EU and get some lovely mass incompatible diversity from our progressive leaders to make things safer and at least give us something to spend all that spare tax money on

  332. Joe says:

    Mind you we might have to allocate a chunk of tax to gender-transitioning pre pubescent children at the woke whims of adults who would benefit from a labotomy. Once we are ‘carbon neutral’ we will be as broke as the 3rd world anyway so i guess nobody could accuse us of being evil for being successful. What a wonderful future ahead…

  333. Joe says:

    After weaponising mental illness against womens rights (self ID) the normalisation of the sexualisation of children will mean we will have less child sex offenders presumably. I guess thats a saving we can be grateful for. I was starting to get concerned for the fiscal outlook for a minute. Wouldnt want to turn away known jihadis for lack of suitable housing.

  334. dadsarmy says:

    Yes, tidal flow as in the Sound of Islay for instance. I always enjoy going across in the wee ferry which launches itself upstream and manages to get to the other side – sideyways.

  335. Dr Jim says:

    I just watched a good documentary on the BBC about the mass right wing movement across England with views of the Met police at some of the rioting and violence coupled with the rise of knife crime and the inability of the police and hospitals to deal with it all due to lack of staff, and the right wing Tories aren’t done yet, there’ll be much more to come down there, just a few weeks ago the police in Liverpool took 50 guns off the streets so just imagine how many they didn’t get

    I’ll give it less than a year and we’ll have what’s left of the civilised folk from England banging on our doors begging to rent a room

  336. mr thms says:

    Hopefully more will follow

    “THE SNP has welcomed the decision by the Green Party association in Dundee and Angus not to field a candidate in the area.

    The party says the move will allow it to strengthen the challenge to remove the Tories and oppose Brexit in the December 12 General Election.

    It follows a similar announcement by the Greens in Perth and North Perthshire and in North East Fife.”

  337. jockmcx says:

    Peter Hitchens speaks to Ruth Wishart at the Edinburgh International Book Festival.

    interesting talk marred by an old codger who thinks mr hitchins is just as BAAAAAAHD as the SNP

  338. ahundredthidiot says:

    BBC asking Hilary about them pesky Russians interfering in our ‘democracy’…

    …..not asking why her husband travelled 26 times with Jeffrey Epstein to F**K Island.

    That’ll be the British MSM for you then…..jolly good journalism.

  339. Giving Goose says:


    I’ve posted an OBE out to you, it’ll be with you in 3 days.

    I’ve made it from sticky back plastic and an unused Brexit Party poster.

    Wear it well, you’ve earned it.

  340. Dorothy Devine says:

    Giving Goose , most excellent and a well deserved accolade for the recipient.

    However , there is another deserving contributor – question is do you have enough sticky backed plastic in this anti plastic age?

  341. Gary45% says:

    Giving Goose@7.13
    You should have sent him a large sack of spuds, for all those chips he carries!

  342. Ottomanboi says:

    We value your privacy
    We use cookies and similar technologies to help our site work, to understand how it is used and to personalise content and advertising. This helps us continue to provide access to our content for free. By clicking “Accept” you agree to allow cookies to be placed. You can manage your settings here and get more information via our privacy notice.

    The SNP government might look into the actual reasons for the above, why sites elect to send alien files to your device, files used primarily for data farming, snooping and screwing up your system.
    The above is from the National, a particularly irritating local user of cookies and the ‘we value your privacy’ nonsense.
    Since the EU meddled in the US driven cookie business things have not improved. Cookies are intrusive and a violation of privacy. Their use is Big Brother, corporate spying.
    GET RID!

  343. Joe says:

    Wont it be wonderful if our brave indy warriors in the SNP manage to use the votes we lend them to stop Brexit? We will all be very happy with no mandate for independence to hand Westminster but knowing we bravely sacrificed Scotlands autonomy by saving those English working class from themselves. Its so good to be progressive, globalist and correct in everything

  344. Gary45% says:

    You better be wearing your poppy.

  345. K1 says:

    “Hallo? Is that the national’?


    “This is the SNP, in relation to yer biscuits on the interweby, gonnae no dae that?”


    “Just…gonnae noooo?

  346. dadsarmy says:

    Probably chocloate chip cookies.

  347. misteralz says:

    Joe @1216, I’d love to see the Denmark and Sweden border where all these patrols are. Are they sitting on one of the uprights with binoculars?

  348. Colin Alexander says:

    @ Joe

    I don’t disagree with much of what you say about the SNP’s devolution policies.

    However, that is a separate issue completely from independence.

    Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP won’t be around forever. She may never be the President / Prime Minister of The Kingdom or Republic of Scotland after indy.

    So, it’s an error to conflate the SNP’s crap devolution policies with indy. Though it’s an error BOTH indy and Empire supporters fall into.

    Much as I hate to admit it, grudgingly and with much disappointment that there is no better alternative, I have to concede:

    If you support independence or even oppose independence BUT believe Scotland’s people have the democratic right to decide for themselves on that matter:

    The right thing to do this time around is:

    VOTE SNP !

  349. Joe says:

    @ Colin Alexander

    So i should vote for a party to achieve Scottish independence, while turning a blind eye to its trespasses on peoples fundamental rights, despite the fact that their stated priority is an outcome that would erase an independence mandate? Are you all utterly stupid?

  350. Jim McIntosh says:

    Totally off topic here, but some will have noticed a BMG Poll reported by Flavible Politics on Twitter last evening with the Tories in Scotland on 23% and the SNP on 18%. I say that’s bollocks, but that’s not my question…

    An unweighted Scottish sample of 103 has an SNP total of 35 votes but the weighted sample of 122 has an SNP total of 22 votes.

    Can anyone explain how that is possible, am I reading the data wrong?

  351. Joe says:

    @ misteralz

    Probably with land rovers and camoflaged long range patrols too….

    Sorry. Forgive me. Nothing going wrong in Sweden. Im sure that grenade amnesty will sort things right out

  352. Joe says:

    @ Jim Mcintosh

    I dont trust polls much. However as I already said – people will all be disappointed with the results of dec 12th for reasons nobody wants to hear. Despite WOS breaking down into fine detail over the months for us

  353. mike cassidy says:

    Looks like our resident trolls are doubling up on the dayshift.

    Keep taking the medicine, guys.

  354. Stuart MacKay says:

    The New Yorker article is excellent. Thanks Nana.

    Only partway through but two sentences already jump out:

    The country never entirely adjusted to being a junior partner to America or a European member state.

    In the imperial imagination, there are only two states: dominant and submissive, colonizer and colonized.

    I think it’s fairly obvious that the Imperial Imagination is very much alive and and Brexit is an attempt to rekindle former glory. That ignores the reality of the world – there really are only two roles left for England – European member or junior partner to the USA. It simply does not have the resources to achieve anything else. That does not bode well for the rest of the United Kingdom as the frustration of renewed failure is going to be taken out on someone. It’s going to be best to be well out of the way when that happens.

  355. misteralz says:

    I know that we don’t engage trolls in here, but can I keep playing with Joe, please? Fatigues and shit quality English 4x4s? At the Denmark and Sweden border? Please tell me more!

  356. HandandShrimp says:

    I have one vote and I will cast it for the SNP. Everything else is just so much waffle. Not voting is a dereliction of duty and the other parties have nothing to offer.

  357. admiral says:

    misteralz says:
    12 November, 2019 at 11:31 am
    I know that we don’t engage trolls in here, but can I keep playing with Joe, please? Fatigues and shit quality English 4x4s? At the Denmark and Sweden border? Please tell me more!

    There is technically a border between Denmark and Sweden – on the Oresund Bridge between Copenhagen and Malmo. But I get your general point – there is no land border.

  358. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 17:17 (11.Nov)

    Again I don’t disagree with your point that the issue of indyref2 features highly in Scotland, at least with the cosy BritNat Cartel. (Though rather less visibly this time round by NorthBritLab, it seems, who have maybe learnt a teensy bit from recent history. Or possibly have just completely faded from view instead.) But I think the fairy dust that brought the Cartel some gains a couple of years ago has lost all its sparkle in the light of intervening events, of which the most salient by a mile is…
    (yup, you guessed it).

    We are still too inclined to forget I think that the crucial players in this election are not really the already firmly convinced like you and I (provided we hold our nerve), but the persuadeable converts. Unlike the Unionists, who are vainly trying to fight the previous war, the SNP have got a sound handle on this. Here’s a recent quote by Angus Robertson:

    In the most recent poll for Progress Scotland […], [such folk] when asked whether “Brexit has changed my view on Scottish independence”, a majority agreed.

    Brexit is the goose which has laid the golden egg of indyref2, and without which any hope of independence would still be some considerable time far off in the future. Instead we have the very realistic prospect of a definitive referendum in the new year. Thanks to voters who are now finally beginning to wake up to the very real and present danger of sitting on our hands at this critical juncture. How stupid would we be to let them down by throwing away the chance by not voting ourselves?

    Apropos the Wee Pretenders, the grotesquely-compromised FibDem component of the Cartel, here’s a snippet I only discovered today. (Apologies anyone already familiar with this one.) Never mind Corbyn’s recent contribution to the trope, apparently during the EURef, no less a FibDem personage than that Nick Clegg (remember him?) was heard to utter a variant of a phrase very familiar to us all, having been done to death of late by the BritNat-friendly media in their anti-indy campaign. This grossly under-publicised effusion of his former leader was conceded by Liar Carmichael in a recent radio interview, who casually dismissed its significance by continuing: “describing something as a once-in-a-generation event is not the same as making a manifesto promise”. (Not as if that distinction even seemed to matter very much to the FibDems when the prospect of ministerial cars beckoned.)

    So having a repeat “once-in-a-whenever” referendum is perfectly fine for the FibDems. Or not. It’s Tuesday and a full moon, so take a guess!

    Or instead take a handful of minutes of your time next month to vote for a party that has a trustworthy sense of principle and a strong grasp of consistency. Unlike the wanglers of the Cartel, it has earned our support. And indy in coming with it.

  359. Dr Jim says:

    I watched SKY TVs Boulton earlier as he patronised bullied laughed then threatened a Plaid Cymru representative with English retribution should they ever consider Independence for Wales in the way they used to do to the SNP a few years back, he even mocked the idea of different parts of Wales speaking their own language

    The Unionist British Empire mentality never changes

  360. ben madigan says:

    @ Robert J Sutherland who said “voters who are now finally beginning to wake up to the very real and present danger of sitting on our hands at this critical juncture”.

    Hope this post will help them make up their minds definitively!

  361. Patrick Roden says:

    @ Colin Alexander:

    You said

    Recently, I was talking to two life-long Labour supporting “socialists” who matter of factly dropped into the conversation that they would be voting Conservative – just to try and keep the SNP out.

    are you serious! You managed to find two Labour ‘Socialists’?,

    It’s the genuine socialists in the labour party who have been leaving in huge numbers.

    The reason given is best summed up in the ageless quote by Jimmy Read:

    I didn’t leave the Labour Party, the Labour Party left me

    If they are still Labour voters they are not socialists Colin, they are Tories! so we won’t let the choice of Tory; Blue or Red bother us.

    What they are is people who feel that we in Scotland are uniquely incapable of looking after our peoples own interests and need the honest, capable, clever, people at Westminster, to make all the important decisions for us.

  362. galamcennalath says:

    A HUGE success for state propaganda. People across the UK have been persuaded to simple lose the plot regarding Brexit.

    Yougov … “Why do people support Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal?”…. “Gets Brexit Done … 52%”

    Best deal possible follows at 9%.

    So, folks have been persuaded that the details don’t matter, all that matters is getting the job done.

    So terribly sad. Informed decision making and functional democracy has been all but erased.

  363. Terry callachan says:

    Hi Joe, your post at 1116hrs today.

    You said
    “ people will be disappointed with the result of the 12th dec”

    I agree

    The unionists will be disappointed

    I too will be disappointed because even though SNP increase the number of seats they have at Westminster I know there are still people like yourself out there who are agitating against Scottish independence I get particularly disappointed with the huge number of English people who come to live in Scotland who enjoy our beautiful country and everything it gives them and then they vote for their own country England to deprive Scotland of choices about its future.

    Colonialist mentality always expects more than what the locals have it considers the locals to be inferior , too stupid too weak too poor to handle their own affairs .

    Scotland is a great survivor
    England knows that
    That’s why we have this union
    It was easier for them to bribe a few with control in Scotland than to go to war and conquer

    Scotland is on good terms with the peoples closest to us in every direction ….except one

  364. Giving Goose says:

    I see Jackson Carlaw is bigging up Trident again.

    Trident – a big dick to grasp in your hands when you are suffering from penis envy.

    What is it with colonial thinking small willied men?

  365. Dr Jim says:

    @galamcennalath 12:44pm

    The’ve found a way to convince a nation that something they never gave a thought to before 2016 is now so urgent that they’re fed up and angry waiting for it

    And they still don’t know what it is, but they know they want it whatever it is because they’ve been told a bunch of weak kneed lefties don’t want it, and they can’t be having that can they

    Because they’re totally convinced of the need to get this thing done and tell Johnny foreigner, eh well something about being ruled and borders and they think there’s jam and cheese involved, oh and some fish, and well they don’t like people who aren’t them telling them stuff that they didn’t give two hoots about a few years ago, and they’ll fight to the death to prove it

    The politicians and financiers who’ve done this have the cheek to condemn ISIS indoctrination of people when this crap is no different

  366. Colin Alexander says:

    @ Patrick Roden 12.34pm

    I think everything you said is right.

    I think they must have been deluding themselves about being socialists or they’ve changed over the years, their minds poisoned by years of BBC propaganda.

    I’ll try to encourage them to at least abstain, as they aren’t uncaring people, so voting Tory doesn’t suit them.

  367. galamcennalath says:

    Dr Jim says:

    They’ve found a way to convince a nation that something they never gave a thought to before 2016 is now so urgent that they’re fed up and angry waiting for it

    And what makes the whole thing more awful that it already is, is the fact that what they believe is the end, is just the beginning!

    After all this bad faith, trade talks with the EU will be a bugger. That’s a much bigger undertaking than the Withdrawal Agreement and I can’t see how anyone could believe the UK/Tories/London are capable and competent.

    There will be another round of extensions to the transition period and the threat of ‘no deal’ crash outs again.

    That’s just the EU. What about the many other trade deals we benefit from right now. They evaporate. To be replaced with what?

    Then we have the THREAT of predatory deals with the US and others. If the EU hasn’t been able to put together worthwhile trade deals, the UK has no chance. It will be ripped off. Everyone will see the suckers coming a mile off.

    Scotland has to be out and on our one tracks long before all this.

  368. Jack Murphy says:

    Off Topic.Yesterday Craig Murray put up a good piece on his Blog:

    ——————The UK’s Macabre Final Election———–

    “This is the final general election of the United Kingdom.

    The SNP has put Independence at the heart of its campaign, eschewing the dreadful error of the “don’t mention Independence” campaign of 2017 that led half a million potential supporters to sit on their hands on voting day.

    The SNP is going to win a thumping victory and eliminate the Tories from Scotland……..”

    A 5-7 minute read with comments.

  369. Dr Jim says:

    Saw an internet expert guy on TV who said up to 42% of Twitter and Facebook users aren’t people at all, they’re factories employed by governments private companies and wealthy individuals to distort consensual dialogue and insert their own messages, and apparently it’s even worse in America where the idea came from

    We all know about the bots and the regular disruptors but this is a real step up if there’s as much as this guy says

  370. Colin Alexander says:

    Joe asked me:

    “So I should vote for a party to achieve Scottish independence, while turning a blind eye to its trespasses on peoples fundamental rights, despite the fact that their stated priority is an outcome that would erase an independence mandate?”

    Basically: Aye.

    You mention fundamental rights.

    Did you know the EU has a Charter of Fundamental Rights that EU Members and the EU are supposed to legally adhere to? (Whether they do is another matter but they can then be taken to court to uphold those rights).

    Guess who has opted out of that: The UK. Who wants out of the similar (but different) European Convention on Human Rights? The UK under the Tories.


    As regards the Brexit mandate for indyref2, I can’t see the SNP stopping Brexit, can you? Even if Brexit didn’t happen, support for indy has arguably grown to become the favoured option, so the mandate would continue.

    I would say: vote SNP this time as the least harmful choice.

    If nothing else it will force the SNP to deliver on their promise of indyref2 – or else they are a busted flush in 2021.

  371. ScotsRenewables says:

    A bit disturbed to see Joanna Cherry saying the SNP are ‘miles ahead’ in the polls.

    This is what we were told in 2017, and huge numbers did not bother turning up at the polling station.


  372. Dr Jim says:


    A big part of their con to people is that they won’t have to keep sending money to the EU and that’s a lie, you can’t trade with other countries if you don’t have financial agreements with them and those agreements can take years to get to, how they managed to convince people that they can arrange some sort of barter deal (I’ll give you a fish if you give me a bit of cheese) between countries is just plain bonkers, so all these promises of throwing £billions at people for their brand new Britain is just hogwash, they won’t have that kind of money unless they borrow it from somewhere and *who’s that going to be from*

    They’ve thrown water on a perfectly good fire that kept us all warm and now they’re having to go and look for more kindling and wood to build another fire before we freeze our Arses off and get angry because there’s nae F…..g fire

  373. dadsarmy says:

    I suspect Joe is getting confused with the Sweden Norway border, where the Badder-Bierfhof are regularly engaged by units of the LRDG which of course, as we all know, was started by that Great Scot Douglas Falkirk for operations in the Arctic Circle, later evolving into the well-known Queen of the South.

  374. admiral says:

    cotsRenewables says:
    12 November, 2019 at 1:28 pm
    A bit disturbed to see Joanna Cherry saying the SNP are ‘miles ahead’ in the polls.

    I can’t get in to read it, because I’m not registered with that rag, but Joanna may have been misquoted or selectively quoted. I spoke to her recently and her tack was “cautious optimism”.

  375. galamcennalath says:

    @admiral she’s quoted as saying ….

    ” In Scotland, the SNP are miles in front of the other parties. We either hold all the seats in Scotland, or are the major challengers in the seats that we don’t hold. There isn’t a need for an electoral pact north of the Border.

    After the election, then the SNP will work with progressive parties to keep the Tories out of power. We have been very clear about that.

    Given the strength of our position in the opinion polls in Scotland, then it’s a very clear choice for voters – do they want SNP Remain voices at Westminster, or do they want Tories. And the opinion polls tend to indicate the answer is voters in Scotland want the SNP, and see the SNP as the party of Remain. “

    Personally, I’d interpret that as a dismissal of the LibDems (although not mentioned) because of that party’s involvement in the electoral pact down south. She’s saying that to defeat Tories and support Remain, the SNP are the go to party.

    It’s not boasting, as perhaps the Scotsman hints. It’s highlighting the totally different situation in this country and attacking the threat the LibDem present in several SNP held seats.

  376. admiral says:

    ” In Scotland, the SNP are miles in front of the other parties.”

    I don’t see that as saying miles ahead “in the polls”. I see that as stating the obvious about the current political landscape that the SNP is by far the biggest political party in Scotland, – for instance, looking at seats, membership, being the biggest challenger in seats we don’t already hold, however you want to look at it.

  377. Gary45% says:

    Giving Goose@12.56
    Do you think Jackson has to phone America every time he wants to use his sausage? just like Trident.

  378. kapelmeister says:

    Is smug Sky presenter Adam Boulton going to get the Swiss ambassador into the studio and ask him if Switzerland holds together in human terms as a country because they’ve got…you know…German speakers, French speakers, Italian speakers…?

  379. Dan says:

    More useful stuff for activists to have to hand from Business for Scotland.

  380. callmedave says:

    The Brexit Party’s MEP for Scotland has quit as a general election candidate in protest at its decision not to field candidates in seats held by the Tories.

    Louis Stedman-Bryce said he backed an agreement with the Conservatives in Scotland to help fight the SNP.

    But he said he could not support the UK-wide arrangement because he does not approve of Boris Johnson’s proposed Brexit deal.

    Mr Stedman-Bryce had planned to stand in the Glasgow North East constituency.

  381. Joe says:

    @ misteralz & Dadsarmy

    Really? Denmark doesnt have a land border with Sweden. Gee i never knew…

    Thanks fellas. Misteralz – ill be an official troll when WOS bans me. Until then its an excuse for the snowflakes on here not to get involved in anything that might challenge their progressive religion

  382. Joe says:

    Im going to throw you people 1 thing – one good reason to vote SNP is that a poor showing for supposedly Scottish independence parties would be leveraged against Scotland. The SNP however seem to be doing their best to test peoples resolve. I will never vote for the current crop of 4rseholes however, for any reason

  383. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 14:35,

    I agree, it’s a counter to the (unmentioned) FibDem pretenders, who are getting privileged media attention due to their challenge in England, which makes them a troubling distraction in Scotland, since they will likely continue to hang on to some constituencies here, (which may be rather more than the Tories and NorthBritLab manage!).

    In the event, I seriously doubt that the FibDems will gain anything much in reward even in England, despite a fairly modest attempt to corral the Remain vote there. All they will likely achieve is to leave their voters with dashed hopes and broken dreams, especially the ones in Scotland who have a real alternative, as Joanna is in effect saying.

    A likely electoral win for the little Englanders down south will at least deliver the coup de grâce to the fond notion of a EURef2, and thereby dispose of the last potential distraction to IR2.

    That icy blast of reality should focus minds here wonderfully.

  384. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Joe @ 17:40,

    (What vote could that possibly be, Troll Farmer…?)

  385. Colin Alexander says:


    You can only vote for your constituency candidate.

    Who is the SNP candidate in your constituency,if you don’t mind me asking?

    The SNP are never able to bring in GE manifesto policies. So it’s the MSPs you have the issue with, I think.

    I stopped voting SNP for Holyrood too. But for Scotland’s sake will vote for the SNP MP candidate.

  386. Famous15 says:

    Joe and Colin BS tagteam.


  387. Elmac says:

    @ Colin Alexander @ Joe

    Your verbal diarrhoea has been accelerating. I assume with a General Election in the offing your increased output reflects an increase in your rates. Do you charge by the word? The good times are obviously rolling for both of you – or are you one and the same?

    Better make hay while the sun shines. The day of reckoning approaches when you will be on the dole.

  388. galamcennalath says:

    Having a play with Electoral Calculus. Early days in the campaign, but based on a few recent polls, they predict results something like ….

    SNP 45 (+10)
    Con 8 (-5)
    LibDem 5 (+1)
    Lab 1 (-6)

    SNP gains from Tories: Angus, Ayr, Gordon, Ochil and South Perthshire, Stirling

    SNP gains from Labour: Coatbridge and Bellshill, East Lothian,Glasgow NE, Kirkcaldy, Midlothian, Rutherglen

    LibDem gain from SNP: NE Fife

    Obviously it would be nice if Stephen Gethins kept his seat, and 8 Tories is still way too many. However, something like the above would be a very convincing election win.

    (English parties in their country only dream of such victories 🙂 )

  389. ahundredthidiot says:

    Rev – an awful lot of posts from the muppets mate, I fear it might start putting people off. As much as I hate to be the footballer calling for a yellow card, they’re in overdrive and I think this might be their new strategy – bore people to death with multiple posts between each other and turn people off.

    I respect your patience, but maybe time to shore up here.

  390. ronnie anderson says:

    It can only happen under the Tories .

    Money markets collapse England have dropped Sterling


  391. callmedave says:

    Big STV in St Andrews this evening for the main news.

    It’s all about Independence up here in Scotland not Brexit they tell us.

    A wee cameo of all the ‘Scottish leaders’

    Ricky Leopard?? came of worst, a small panel of folk did not know who he was and same with Jackson Carlaw and even Wullie Rennie in NE Fife?

    Only one was immediately recognised Aye her!

    Poor Ricky Leopard shown getting the door shut in his face to
    “I’m not voting for Labour mate”! 🙁

    While Carlaw was seen returning down that garden path smirking, suggesting he had a vote in the bag. Aye!

    Bit to come on NE Fife from the fishing and the golf club but we all know they’ll be yoons so as not to frighten the horses darn Sarf. 🙂

  392. ronnie anderson says:

    Ahundredthidiot i agree with you whole heartedly , there is nothing worse than coming on Wings every morning & reading the drivel put out by the britnat Trolls .

    Down to You Stuart to curtail them .

  393. barpe says:

    Well said Ronnie @6-57

  394. cynicalHighlander says:

    Can I point you to the rev’s pin tweet.

    “If you only like the truth when it’s a truth you like, you don’t like the truth.”

    Freedom of speech doesn’t stop because one does not like it.

    Just saying.

  395. scotspatriot says:

    See this Colin Alexandra guy ! Does he plat with a fool deck or is he hired hand?
    I’ll leave that up to you, amigos !!

  396. mike cassidy says:

    Guess that land border between Denmark and Sweden must have sunk.

  397. mike cassidy says:

    I’m linking to this

    Just because.

    Just because.

  398. Patrick Roden says:

    RE: Colin Alexander & Joe,

    A lot of people throw abuse at them whenever they make comments (That are admittedly often anti-SNP)

    However, neither of them are abusive, and both of them make comments that might be heard on the doorstep or from our friends and family.

    if they are indeed working for the UK government, as is the most frequent accusation thrown at them, then they are doing Wings as well as the wider Yes movement a great service.

    They are giving us information about the enemies ammunition and giving us ‘Yes’ troops, good target practice for when the real battle starts.

    They are doing Wings a huge favour, so don’t get angry get informed and beat them in every argument they bring!

    That way you will have answers for people when you meet them during Indyref2.

  399. Effijy says:

    I seen the STV news as commented on above.

    Thanks to the Rev and Prof John Robertson we have become more educated in realising how propaganda works.

    Being Scottish and an independence supporter I’ve had a belly full of it from UK Media over many years.

    It seemed obvious to me that who ever heads up the news there is sponsored by the rich Tories
    Or their Brexit colleagues.

    Why would you film that Labour Dick Leonard getting chased away from a canvases door but accept
    Secondhand Carlaw the Tory coming down a path to claim that resident wouldn’t be supporting independence?

    If anyone in the media wanted to appear unbiased they film each party on the same basis.

    It was a pleasant change not to make SNP the target of deceit but I fear the Tory money buys all the bias you can ever need.

    UK Media is bought and Boris the Clown and the Tory 3 ring circus are going to be manipulated into government again.

    Please God get Scotland out of their corrupt fascist grip.

  400. cynicalHighlander says:

    @Patrick Roden


  401. Dr Jim says:

    We see the Unionist accusations on Twitter all the time

    Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP want to drive Scotland into bankruptcy to further her career, and with that stupid accusation they answer their own question

    Why? why would any SNP politician and leader of a country want to do that when that surely would end their career because no one would ever vote for or trust them ever again

    It’s a desperate accusation from desperate people who can’t or won’t think logically

  402. cynicalHighlander says:

    So GRA is logical Dr Jim in your esteemed estimation!

  403. Dr Jim says:

    In my esteemed estimation that has nothing to do with Independence for a country but has everything to do with folk who want to start a row because they feel like it

  404. Ottomanboi says:

    Society will develop a new kind of servitude which covers the surface of society with a network of complicated rules, through which the most original minds and the most energetic characters cannot penetrate. It does not tyrannise but it compresses, enervates, extinguishes, and stupefies a people, till each nation is reduced to nothing better than a flock of timid and industrious animals, of which the government is the shepherd.
    Alexis de Tocqueville
    Something to bear in mind during this tedious election. Politicians, they’ll fuck you up, If you let them.

  405. Terry callachan says:

    Colin Alexander 6.04 pm ….you asked joe a question

    He won’t answer you

  406. cynicalHighlander says:

    @Dr Jim

    Garbage. If you want to live in an autotitarian state good luck.

  407. Old Pete says:

    Why do so many folk in Scotland vote for the Tory party ?
    Greedy, gullible, selfish, stupid and thick ? So many choices so many types so disappointing so sad.

  408. Colin Alexander says:

    Terry Callachan

    I know who my SNP candidate is. She’s an excellent candidate and has been an excellent SNP MP, when compared to the previous Labour MP.

    And she hasn’t voted to start any illegal, immoral wars, which is a big difference from the previous Labour MP.

    Most of all, I think she genuinely wants the people of Scotland to be in charge of Scotland to build a fairer country, with opportunity for all the people, no just the rich few.

  409. galamcennalath says:

    Old Pete says:

    Why do so many folk in Scotland vote for the Tory party ?

    I can’t imagine ever voting Tory, but if polls are any indication of intention, 22% might well vote for Boris’ cabal.

    I have some elderly Tory voting neighbours. I would say they believe in a Tory party which no longer exists. My father’s family voted Tory decades ago and none of them had two pennies to rub together. Pre Thatcher Tories were a different thing to the recent party. They supported the NHS and used government subsidies to bring work to depressed areas (Bathgate, Linwood etc).

    I rationalise some of the Tory voting as relating to politics in some ~70-80 year old’s youth. That is the age group they are strongest with.

    As for younger people? Greedy, entitled, elitist types. Maybe peer group identity.

    I still find it really odd that so many people consider voting for a party which seems to be happy to throw so many of their fellow citizens under a bus easily! Some folks are born barstads, others aspire to it.

  410. ElGordo says:

    @Old Pete

    I’m all right jack

  411. ElGordo says:

    @old pete

    People in the top 25% economically believing their interests are best served by a party that looks after the top 0.5%

    And they are in fact not just economically but genetically superior, and therefore morally.

    And the others are motivated by jealousy and want something for nothing, despite their obvious inferior intelligence, morality and genes.

    Then there are some bumps along the way in their or their kids lives and they can repent, but then replaced by the thoughtless, morally bankrupt next wave.

    And so it continues, forever, when shiny things are all consuming.

  412. ElGordo says:

    @old pete

    The greatness of a man is not in in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively, it is how much wealth he acquires.

    He who dies with the most toys wins.

  413. Colin Alexander says:

    If anyone wants to check out the political record etc of a politician. See these websites:

    eg Here is a summary of the voting record for Alister Jack Tory MP for Dumfries and Galloway and most recent Sec. State for Scotland:

  414. ElGordo says:

    If i am going to be able to rise up to a senior management position, in my chosen career, within this succesfull company, it is probably for the best that the board and the shareholders aren’t aware of any leftfield political views I may have. In fact it is prob best for my advancement that they think i am a middle of the road Tory, and i probably should too, for the sake of my career, my family and our future.

  415. Dr Jim says:


    I’m always amazed at the folk who think they know what a political party stand for until you show them their voting record

    Every time I show Jo Swinson’s voting record to a Lib Dem voter you can see the visible chill and disbelief because they think the Lib Dems are a centre party and never dream they’re full blown Tories

    I’m in East Dunbartonshire so we have quite a few Lib Dems to get round to quell the myth

  416. chicmac says:

    Harold MacMillan, a principled old one nation Tory once said ‘You never had it so good.’

    Boris Johnson, of the modern narcissistic, sociopathic and totally unprincipled variety says’ You never had it, so good.’

    Oh what a difference one comma can make.

  417. A.Bruce says:

    There is no choice; it’s quite clear, your vote has to be for the S N P. The goal has to be to reap a clean sweep, and with the referenda bill just round the corner they’re never going to stop us.

  418. Joe says:

    I love it.

    Im saying unwelcome hurty things about everyones pet political party and im seeing accusations of dishonesty, underhand motives and calls for me to be censored. The same people then wonder why they struggle to hold indy support above 50%.

  419. Joe says:

    Ive said it before. The elephant in the room is that its not Scotlands potential, or Scotlands legal or moral right to be self governing, its not the technicalities of economics. Its that too many of the indy movement are ignorant, economically illiterate globalist leftists and their advocacy of independence looks awfully like the kind of socialism that has screwed over so many and brought poverty.

  420. Joe says:

    Something in particular I found funny – ‘we need a clean sweep of SNP MP’s to hammer home independence.’

    Welp. We pretty much had that AND a brexit based mandate and what happened? SNP fought for the EU. Not you.

    You people are deranged and desperate.

  421. starlaw says:

    Dear Joe your understanding is way off the mark. You think like an Englishman so don’t worry your napper about something which you know little about. Bye.

  422. Joe says:

    @ Starlaw

    How does all of those millions of Englishmen think that what I say can be comparable to them all?

  423. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Joe @ 07:19,

    And you are a Troll Farmer who thinks the future wellbeing of our children and their children is worth less than nothing but just can’t resist the opportunity for an occasional bit of amusing little internet mind gaming. Saddo. Wherever you are, you very obviously have no personal stake in this at all.

    There may still be a scattering of naifs and other gamers willing to give you the time of day, but the pool is rapidly drying up. There’s a limit to the amount of pisstake before even the thickest wise up.

  424. Joe says:

    @ Robert J Sutherland

    Im a self employed married man who lives in Scotland and will soon start a family.

    My stake in this is at the highest level.

  425. Effijy says:

    I see where you are coming from Joe.
    The sovereign nation of Scotland is better off with no real powers or voice
    And condemn a million people here into poverty, sell off the NHS, attack the
    Disabled, remove safety nets with universal discredit.

    For the first decade since Dickensian days the average working man has not improved his living standards. We await to be driven off an economic cliff that we made clear we don’t want and we will
    All become around 6-7% worse off the moment Brexit kicks in and we can then spend 10 years struggling trying to make inferior trade deals from a position of weakness.

    Yes much better the devil PM we know hates Scotland and who would always invest in England before Scotland.

    Not worth taking a risk with full control over our country or we might miss out on all these benefits.

    FFS Joe go shopping for some new Jack Boots and give us peace.

  426. Sinky says:

    BBC Scotland GMS featuring a former Labour MP Red Tory Tom Harris who is backing the Tories.

    Don’t hold your breathe to hear the former Glasgow Labour MSP who has joined the SNP.

  427. Joe says:

    @ Effigy

    Lets keep it simple – im an advocate of democracy and sovereign nations, especially Scotland.

    Also if you think working peoples standards havent raised since the days of Dickens then you are one clueless wee cookie

  428. sassenach says:


    Yea, yea, we all believe everything you say!!!

  429. Joe says:

    @ Effigy

    Apologies. Misread your post on Dickens.
    Working people do get humped by the very wealthy. Millions upon millions have died under political (socialist) heirarchies also. Mibbe try and strike a balance?

  430. skintybroko says:

    Sad to see that the labour party will no longer be contesting elections after this one which they will lose (once in a generation opportunity after all) – they do provide a level of check and balance down south but now will leave the door open to the right wing Tories, Lib Dems, and other nut jobs which will see the UK turn into that forecast by the brilliant program Years and Years. Our future unless we in Scotland vote SNP at this election.

  431. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    WGD on fire again (whenever not?), after hearing Paul Sweeney (Glasgow’s last little temporary NorthBritLab blip) assure us that this election isn’t about independence, oh no:

    …the desire for independence isn’t driven by the SNP. It’s not driven by the “forces of nationalism”. It’s driven by the behaviour of the anti-independence parties and the contempt and disdain with which they treat Scotland, and the way in which they constantly go back on the promises and commitments that they make to the people of Scotland.

    He’s right, especially about the contempt thing. As seen on here also these days. Ignorantly self-defeating.

  432. Joe says:

    @ Sassenach

    This is the argument – i say ‘the snp has let us down badly for reasons A, B and C so why should I vote for them?’ Indy campaigners say ‘Unionist troll playing mind games!’

    Very convincing. I must say. Cant wait for that yellow wave

  433. North chiel says:

    Here we go again . The leader of the Britnat 2nd eleven hasbeens on his way to Scotland again with promises promises of a massive “ transformational” investment from his benevolent Westminster dynasty in waiting . Another “ vow” from our “ colonial governors” . Let’s hope on Dec12th and thereafter after our Indyref 2 vote next year the people of Scotland “ deliver their verdict” on Britnat London rule .

  434. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Red Tory Tom Harris goes full on batshit crazy BritNat on Radio Shortbreid at 7:55hrs.

    They are overt in their defence of ‘The Precious’ now.

    You can smell the fear


  435. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    By overt I mean not even pretending that the BritNat vote is a 3 Party one.

  436. Ottomanboi says:

    Great white chief Johnson is coming ‘north’, bearing gifts.
    Unionism, Scotland’s cargo cult?

  437. Stuart MacKay says:

    Assuming Effijy’s figure of a 6-7% cut refers to GDP.

    Between 2012 – 2015, GDP in Greece fell 7.1%. I don’t think people realise what a similar size cut to the UK economy is going to mean. All those stories about teachers with jobs begging for food; the elderly starving in their homes; sharp increases in the suicide and addiction rates – that’s coming soon, to your neighbourhood.

    The ONLY way out – vote SNP.

  438. Joe says:

    @ Stuart Mackay

    Much of that was a direct result of EU enforced austerity…

  439. Stuart MacKay says:


    The issue here is the scale of the cuts that are coming as a result of Brexit and the effect they are going to have.

    Do you think the government is going to make sure the cuts are evenly spread across the country to increase the sense of social solidarity and for us to rekindle our Blitz Spirit. Don’t me laugh. The areas that voted remain are going to get it in the neck as payback for opposing the Conservatives. Scotland will be first up.

    I’m sure you’ll be there, at the foodbanks, lending as much moral support as you can. Telling people to buck-up, tighten their belts as the country will be better off as a result.

  440. starlaw says:

    Will British starvation be a better sort of starvation. Do you propose that we wave our Union Flags and sing about God saving a filthy rich old woman, while we starve.

  441. ScotsRenewables says:

    From what exactly is God supposed to be saving the Queen?

    – W

  442. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Joe @ 07:47,

    Oh aye. And voting for Putin. The great man who “got rid of the oligarchs”.

    Y’know, the non-existent pals who don’t make all those dark money donations to the Tory Party here.

    And I’m a Dutchman.

  443. galamcennalath says:

    ScotsRenewables says:

    From what exactly is God supposed to be saving the Queen?

    Us …..

    Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
    May by thy mighty aid,
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    and like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush,
    God save the Queen.

  444. Gary45% says:

    “Hey Joe” Do you practise at being a Yoon, or does it come naturally?
    You better still be wearing your poppy son.

    As far as austerity goes, I thought it was the dodgy Americans selling sub-prime financing that caused the economic crash and the world then had to suck up to the yanks and pay them back.
    Iceland had the right idea with their financial sector, unlike Westminster who simply rewarded the “City” financiers. Are you saying an Indy Scotland can’t do better? if so keep making an arse of yourself on this site for our entertainment.
    SNP= Independence.
    Get that into your nugget.

  445. Meindevon says:

    Blimey, Kezia Dugdale would appear to be Sky’s go to for political insight now.

    On the press review last night (think it was Sky?) and on Adam Boulton a minute ago.

    Having said that she did point out what no one else mentioned last night that the promised money in manifestos for the NHS was for England only and there should be Barnett consequentials for Scotland and Wales.

  446. galamcennalath says:

    Gary45% says:

    As far as austerity goes, I thought it was the dodgy Americans

    … and here was me thinking it had something to do with too many public libraries. 😉

  447. Stuart MacKay says:

    According to Vísir, the United States and the United Kingdom fought to put Iceland on the list owing to its lacklustre legislature concerning money laundering

    There’s going to be payback for not supporting Boris – you can bet the last coins in your pocket on it.

  448. Joe says:

    @ Stuart Mackay

    As inspirational as all that was it doesnt change the fact that while greek financial problems were serious it was the EU making sure the big banks were well served and maintining greek use of the Euro that had the suicide rate going up and pensioners dying.

  449. Joe says:

    @ Gary45%

    Yes Gary the banks were bailed out after criminal activity by selling the prosperity of future generations. Income tax pays the big bond holders (central banks). Those big bond holders also love government spending so the tax payer can foot the interest bill. The banking cartel makes escobar look like a naughty child

  450. Stuart MacKay says:

    @Joe 7:09am

    Its that too many of the indy movement are ignorant, economically illiterate globalist leftists and their advocacy of independence looks awfully like the kind of socialism that has screwed over so many and brought poverty.

    I am sure there are many independence supporters who share your views. The hard truth is that we’re shackled to a country that doesn’t give a f**k about us at best and will actively screw us over at worst.

    Once independence comes the political landscape will revert to something that matches the various views in the country. However we can’t break free of our abusive neighbour without pulling in the same direction for the next few months. After that we can all go our separate ways.

    You want to live in a country where your views count? Where your future kids can have the life you want them to? That can’t happen when there are tens of millions of people next door who think they come first and you come last.

    It’s pure self interest. Vote SNP. Then take your future into your own hands.

  451. Joe says:

    @ Stuart Mackay

    Then you might want to have a wee word with the radicals who control the 2 main indy parties. Diversity of worldview or basic rights doesnt appear to have been a priority for them recently

  452. Footsoldier says:

    Not much point in visiting this website any more just to read a small number of argumentative posters disagreeing with each other.

    My interest was in the forensic analysis in regular articles by the Rev which are becoming more infrequent.

  453. sassenach says:

    Footsoldier @10-19

    Agreed, I miss the forensic analyses that the Rev was noted for, and which I’ve followed (and supported) for many years, but his ‘mojo’ seems to be on the wain lately.

    Perhaps a lengthy rest might help?

  454. Republicofscotland says:

    This illustrates clearly what a bunch of lying bar stewards the LibDems are.

    Meanwhile Corbyn heads to Scotland, to tell Scots you’ll get your indyref when we see fit, however you must have a new mandate.

    I say to this guy from Islington it’s not up to you its up to the people of Scotland to decide their own future.

  455. Capella says:

    Excellent article in The National from Kevin McKenna re the current darkness descending. Some very perceptive comments btl as at 11 am. Worth reading them too:

  456. Breeks says:

    Irrespective of your thoughts on strategy and winning Indy, every UK General Election is like a whale breaking the surface and drawing in a lungful of air. The bigger the SNP vote, the bigger and deeper lungful of fresh air we give ourselves.

    The SNP isn’t perfect, and maybe their Indy strategy has profound weaknesses, but be in no doubt, we are most certainly fked without them.

    The December GE won’t give us Indy, and won’t save us from Brexit, but it will fill our lungs with air we need to keep swimming. If you don’t believe anything else, believe that.

  457. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Interesting to see the recent influx of posters using ‘socialism’ and/or ‘radical’ as pejoratives.

    Like it or not, Scotland is a fundamentally ‘socialist’ country with a strong, well-documented and popular ‘radical’ tradition.

    The crude propaganda targetting Corbyn may have some traction in the Home Counties but it isn’t so effective here.

  458. galamcennalath says:

    Capella says:

    Excellent article in The National from Kevin McKenna re the current darkness descending.

    Indeed. I particularly like the summing up ….

    “The first referendum on Scottish independence gave us the option of merely staying in the UK or leaving it. The choice in the next one will be much more severe: living in a sewer or breathing clean air.”

  459. Iain mhor says:

    I think it was @Old Pete who posed the question somewhere upthread : “Who votes ‘Tory’?”

    Perhaps those influenced by ‘Commando comics’, War films, schooling of Empire, power and glorious history – That’ll be the 50-60yr demographic and the ‘Cult of War’ The 60’s-80+ are again closer to the actual war and may God Save the Queen – for the religions of Christianity and Monarchy will watch over and bless them.
    Among the same demographic, are the job secure – the baby boomers and Thatcher’s ‘other’ children, who were blessed with loadsamoney and rampant capitalism. Possibly all of these are the pool from which ‘Tories’ are drawn. It does seem the natural receptacle for the cult of war and those schooled in Power, Religion and Money. Which frankly is unfair on the ‘Tories’, because it is what drives the greater part of humanity.

    These demographics are not a result of a political party, they are a result of the prevailing ideologies of humanity – which is why, of course, all the parties contain these elements to a greater or lesser degree.
    Perhaps the popularity of the SNP (at least as government) has been its delicate balance of inclusiveness – the only overarching and ‘radical’ ideology, appearing to be “Independence for Scotland”.

    The uniqueness for Scotland is and was, being folded into and embracing the ‘Glorious Empire’ and its cult and foregoing personal identity – Its difficulty is being the last to recognise this and extricate itself.
    Had Scotland been Independent, it would have its own war propaganda, its own monarchy (possibly a republic) its own ‘Glorious history’ and its own ‘Tories’. Indeed we do, or we wouldn’t ‘glory’ in our ancient history and lament it’s suppression; dream of wealth and prosperity and ‘war’ against the forces of oppression.
    Independence is a state of mind, so are the myriad ideologies.

    You can be anything you like in an Independent Scotland – or should be – I think that’s really the point. Of the plethora of ideologies (even the mutually exclusive ones) humans are perverse, yet comfortable enough to hold simultaneously; Scotland as a state of mind, is in the minority.
    We are trying (I hope) to change that – let Scotland be the encompassing and embracing ideal.
    I’m only in the fey business of trying to save a nation from extinction, not dictating its future beliefs.

  460. Capella says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood – yes it is striking how right wing some new commenteers are. They are wasting their time in a country that hasn’t voted Tory since 1955.

    Barrhead Boy recently posted an excellent article quoting Jimmy Reid, “I didn’t leave the Labour Party, Labour left me”, as he joined the SNP. Barrhead lists all the former institutions which granted a sense of “Britishness” to us all, even in Scotland. All of them were destroyed in the Thatcher and Blair era.

    There is nothing left of “Britain” for Scottish people to identify with. All we have now is a daily dose of English exceptionalism which is really just rich posh boy Westminster bluster and greed. Turn it off!

  461. starlaw says:

    Ian Mhor 11;31

    You forgot to mention the Tory voters who come from the sprawling housing schemes (Annie Wells types ) who think that their arse is higher than everyone else’s.

  462. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Starlaw –


  463. callmedave says:

    So your the ‘Scottish’ Labour leader Ricky Leopard and your canvassing and approach an unknown voters door and allow yourself to be filmed. What could possibly go wrong? 🙁

    When I saw that on ITV news yesterday I knew it would go viral.

    FGS! Ricky have you no self awareness, you are the weakest link.

    Oh wait! Jeremy is visiting North of the wall today so he might out do the branch manager.

  464. Scott says:

    I see that Dugdale is in the limelight on the Papers review and now on Daily Politics is she getting more money from this and will she give some to a charity.
    I must admit a good article in the P&J regarding Boris and his quick visit to Scotland and him not willing to meet the public just his crowd and reporters who he claims is the public.

  465. Angus Coutts says:


    Dugdale nw on BBC Daily Politics.

    Billed under her current sinecure job title – no mention of her being ex Red Tory Scottish Leader.

  466. callmedave says:

    Even as I posted above I heard a man on the BBC news with an Irish lilt asking Jeremy on his Scottish walkabout if he is to be the first PM who has in the past supported terrorism ?

    Well that’s both the manager and the branch manager trashed within 24hrs.

  467. Gary45% says:

    I thought Rick Lemon was the SLab leader!

  468. kapelmeister says:

    Jez Corbyn’s sporting a tartan scarf on his Jockland election visit. What a patronising git.

  469. shug says:

    just watchin K Dugdale on Politics live

    ha ha ha

    they are scraping the barrel for views

  470. Scott says:

    Dugdale saying SNP lost a lot of seats 2017 forgetting to mention that she was part of the problem.

  471. callmedave says:

    Rick lemon you say. He goes by many names. 🙂

    Here he is in the East end of Glasgow last night.

  472. Dr Jim says:

    Border posts at Gretna, out of the UK single market, out of the EU, we should emphasise the UK Union says Iain Martin on the English politics programme

    Aye that all sounded friendly and neighbour like

    Funny that Tories and Liberal Democrats say exactly the same things then pretend to be totally different, Swinson says those same words then makes it worse by saying Scotland’s no different to any other constituency in England, although she does like to stress that she’s Skawttish, patriotic eh

  473. Gary45% says:

    The guy in the video looks far to happy to be Mick Leotard.

  474. admiral says:

    Dr Jim says:
    13 November, 2019 at 12:45 pm
    Border posts at Gretna, out of the UK single market, out of the EU, we should emphasise the UK Union says Iain Martin on the English politics programme

    Fine – we’ll take the bulk of water, food, fuel and energy with us and they can call us up when they are living in the dark, cold, hungry and thirsty.

  475. Sinky says:

    More fake news from BBC TV lunchtime news showing NE Scotland as one of the strongest Leave areas.

    A reminder that No electoral area in Scotland voted to leave.

  476. mr thms says:

    Is the ‘UK single market’ the new name for the Union?

  477. Colin Alexander says:


    What has the SNP done at WESTMINSTER that is in your ABC of wrongs?

    They are only the second biggest opposition party. 35 out of 650 MPs. They have no power to achieve anything at WM.

    I would argue they shouldn’t be there at all and should have stuck with: Scotland voted Remain and that should be respected, nothing more to be said. Then said bye bye and left the Empire MPs to fight out their Brexit deals.

    They should have set up the Home Rule Parliament of Scotland that Scotland was promised in 2014.

    They should have declared a Parliament that is representing Scottish sovereignty when the Scottish Parliament was overruled by unelected Lords, so Scottish democracy cannot be ever again trumped by the unelected vermin in Ermine.

    They should now have a Parliament that is not subservient to WM but equal partner to WM where Scottish home rule is being exercised within the Union.

    A Parliament of Scotland that is preparing to ask the bigger question: Should the union be completely dissolved?

    But, the SNP have gone down the s30 devolution begging bowl route. Apart from that huge failure, I would argue the SNP MPs have done fairly well as powerless moaners at WM.

    At least they turn up and moan about the injustices; they also turn up to vote against the injustices. That’s a damn site more than many Labour, Tories or LibDems do.

  478. galamcennalath says:

    “Border posts at Gretna, out of the UK single market “

    This is now an inevitable consequence of independence. Scotland will be in, or closely associated, with the EU while England (and Wales?) transforms itself into Singapore-on-Thames.

    Scotland standards, trade regimes, tariffs, etc will be the same as the rest of the EU. The border at Gretna will be like the borders at Calais, Zeebruger, and Rosslare.

    What’s the alternative? We allow our high standards agriculture, food, and drinks industries to be compromised by the deregulated substandard market to the south?

    Or, worse, that we actually commit economic suicide too, by staying in their UK? Oh, yes, that is what they mean!

    There will be trade. England needs electricity from the EU (Scotland and France). England needs food imports. England needs oil. And no doubt the elite will continue to consume safe high quality EU speciality regionally protected ‘treats’.

  479. Phronesis says:

    Independence is normal, decolonisation is restorative, cathartic and conciliatory. It is democratically appropriate for Scotland, England, Wales to be independent of each other but cooperating as truly equal partners. Particularly for an oil-rich nation like Scotland (a little bit of Britain) as it takes control of its national wealth and creates a sustainable green economy.

    ‘wealth has even become negative in recent years in the United States and the UK…The only exceptions to the general decline in public property are oil-rich countries with large sovereign wealth funds, such as Norway…Public investments are needed in education, health, and environmental protection both to tackle existing inequality and to prevent further increases. This is particularly difficult, however, given that governments in rich countries have become poor and largely indebted’

    There are many routes to independence mapped out by countries who seceded from the UK, recognised in international law and adapted to each country’s specific circumstances. Returning an independent minded majority and demanding independence- no ifs or buts- at the ballot box is one of them.

    ‘The Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 14 December 1960… It was this informal electoral alliance, that provided the intellectual cohesiveness and also the political-tactical competence to secure the adoption of resolution 1514 (XV) without a single expressed dissent in the General Assembly… Except for the Dominican Republic, the rest of those countries that abstained were colonial powers’ (the UK, Spain abstained)

    ‘In May 1956, Kwame Nkrumah’s Gold Coast government issued a white paper with proposals for Gold Coast’s independence. On 3 August 1956, the Gold Coast Assembly adopted Kwame Nkrumah’s resolution demanding independence from Britain. The British Government stated it would agree to a firm date for independence if a reasonable majority for such a step were obtained in the Gold Coast Legislative Assembly after a general election. The 1956 election returned the Convention People’s Party (CPP) to power with 71 of the 104 seats in the Legislative Assembly’

  480. Golfnut says:

    @ Colin and Joe.

    Just watched a video on I think Nicola’s Facebook page, or it could be SNP. Anyway, it responds to the NZ Prime Minsters video detailing in 2mins 60 seconds the list of achievements over her parties term. Nicola’s response is fantastic. I have no doubt that detractors will say she should have done more but if viewed against say Westminster or Labour in Wales record its quite remarkable. If others more competent than I find it, please post here.

  481. Heart of Galloway says:

    Corbyn ruling out IndyRef2 “in first term” of a Labour government. Better Together lives yet it would seem.

    They will pay a heavy price in Scotland for siding with the Tories. Again.

  482. ronnie anderson says:

    FFS are we still on the Joe N Coco show

  483. Pete says:

    Don’t post on here very often but get very intrigued by the views of Joe.
    Not your usual SNP leftie.
    I can well remember the days when the SNP were a very centric party who embraced the market economy as the way to generate wealth for the benefit of the whole population.
    Even AS was of that ilk.
    However, over recent decades it seems to have been hijacked by very left of centre types who see it as a means to get a socialist republic along with all the pc and social guff such as the GRA etc.
    There doesn’t seem to be much room for people like myself and Joe, I guess, who take a much more right wing approach to achieving the greater good for society.
    Corbyn epitomises all that is bad with socialism and tends to support regimes such as Cuba, Venezuela et al.
    Capitalism is no panacea and definitely needs control but it encourages all the right human instincts to harness initiative and self reliance which socialism crushes.
    Joe, more power to your elbow.

  484. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Hi Joe. Wanna meet some time?

  485. galamcennalath says:

    Sinky says:

    More fake news from BBC TV lunchtime news showing NE Scotland as one of the strongest Leave areas.

    A reminder that No electoral area in Scotland voted to leave.

    Although the results were published by electoral region, I understand one NE constituency voted Leave. I assume this can be deduced if you have the raw polling station figures.

    So after three years of only official maps based on voting regions having been seen, the BritNats are now using an unofficial one someone has deduced.

    The controversy obviously arises when a public service broadcaster chooses to use the unofficial propaganda version. Clear evidence of their bias (as if we needed more).

  486. Stuart MacKay says:
    13 November, 2019 at 8:19 am
    Assuming Effijy’s figure of a 6-7% cut refers to GDP.

    Between 2012 – 2015, GDP in Greece fell 7.1%. I don’t think people realise what a similar size cut to the UK economy is going to mean. All those stories about teachers with jobs begging for food; the elderly starving in their homes; sharp increases in the suicide and addiction rates – that’s coming soon, to your neighbourhood.

    The ONLY way out – vote SNP.

    Plus on top of that Scotland will be hit by the coming global recession in 2021 or 2022. Plus those govt figures of 6-7% are estimates. The real impact might be worse. It’s not impossible that the UK economy could take a hit of 10%, way worse than Greece, and as somebody else has stated, no way will Scotland be first in line for support from London.

    And maybe this is what it will take to waken up the other half of Scotland.

    I’ve been reading foreign coverage of how Brexit will affect Scotland and there’s universal acknowledgement that we’re going independent soon. That’s the international context for the S30 palaver, going to the courts, Plan C, etc. Nobody looking on from elsewhere assumes anything other than our success.

  487. Colin Alexander says:


    Excellent comment which once again shows that the SNP line of s30 indyref being the “gold standard” and the “legal” and politically acceptable route to indy is complete and utter tosh.

    A challenge to anyone:

    Convince the readers that an (SNP policy s30) indyref will be conducted fairly, especially regarding an impartial state broadcaster and media.

    How’s Craig Murray’s campaign for impartial international observers? Any news from British Empire parties saying they would invite international regulation of an indyref? No. They won’t even “permit” an indyref.
    Scotland or unbiased, impartial control must be part of any fair indyref process.

    If an impartial unbiased media cannot be guaranteed then a s30 indyref should not even be considered. No indyref should be considered in those circumstances.

    That requires our elected representatives to act on our behalf and exercise sovereignty. A confirmatory indyref could be held later. Run in Scotland by Scotland’s people. With a media subject to Scottish regulation.

    The SNP won’t. The SNP prefer bums on seats in the Empire Parliament and Empire’s devolution parliament at Holyrood.

  488. Colin Alexander says:

    Ronnie Anderson

    Come on then: convince the readers of the fair, and unbiased British media.

    Convince the readers that the SNP will be enable to deliver a fair indyref campaign and fair vote under British devolution and British state controlled media.

  489. Capella says:

    If you liked Barrhead Boy’s article on how Britain left us, you’ll love today’s post. Cheer yourselves up and read it. Stu is obviously taking time for reflection.

  490. crazycat says:

    @ galamcennalath

    Although the results were published by electoral region, I understand one NE constituency voted Leave. I assume this can be deduced if you have the raw polling station figures.

    As far as I know, polling station figures are never available; individual ballot boxes are checked to make sure they contain the same number of votes as the marked register, but papers from several polling places are mixed together before being separated on the basis of votes cast.

    The suggestion that Banff and Buchan narrowly voted Leave, derives, I believe, from a demographic profiling of the council wards that make up the constituency, assumptions about how those groups will have voted, and then an extrapolation of the vote percentage. It is, therefore, not based on any actual ballots, should not be quoted to even one decimal place, and might be false.

    This is what James Kelly had to say about it in yesterday’s National:

    At entirely the opposite end of the spectrum is a Tory-held seat which is estimated to have been the only constituency in Scotland to vote Leave in the EU referendum. It’s important to stress that’s only an estimate, and that the potential margin of error on the 54% Leave figure means it’s entirely conceivable that all 59 Scottish constituencies voted Remain.

  491. Confused says:

    On Wings, a lot of old posters have jacked it in, mostly – for two reasons – “its already been said, many times” – we are in the endzone, where “vote SNP” is all there is to say – and yet – we get these persistent cretins coming right out of the woodwork, on the thread all day, spamming their bullshit and “sliding” any decent comments way up-thread; this single thread system without upvoting has long been criticised as it is too easy to ruin – I don’t go for banning much, but just let them talk to themselves.

    – there’s a whiff off some of the newer handles – of rightwing english unionists playing at “the SNP is selling out independence” or “the SNP is not really socialist” or “the SNP is too crazy socialist” – and all claim to be Scottish or living in Scotland. But I smell shite – it’s like listening to a cockney trying to do a glasgow accent “OCK I THU NOO JOCK”. It’s like they are reading it off a list – briefing notes / points of attack.

    Some comments systems have a wee settings tab where you can configure “ignore posts by this ID”. Something to consider. Signal to noise ratio increased dramatically.

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