All things to all men
Following on from this morning’s post, we thought it was about time someone found a definitive quote from Jim Murphy outlining his position on the devolution of full income tax powers to the Scottish Parliament once and for all.
It turned out to be a surprisingly tricky job.
The Times, November 2014: AGAINST
Politics Home, November 2014: AGAINST
The Telegraph, November 2014: UNDECIDED
The Financial Times, November 2014: FOR
BBC News, November 2014: FOR
The above links are all notable for a common feature – not one of them actually contains a straightforward, unequivocal quote from Murphy stating whether he’s for or against the devolution of full income tax powers. Indeed, as we searched back further and further for evidence, we just kept drawing the same blank.
As far back as 2009 Murphy apparently felt just 10p in the pound was plenty income tax for Holyrood to control, but even then his comments are vague and evasive.
The reality of the situation is that anything you read in the Scottish press is just spin. Jim Murphy has never, so far as we’re able to ascertain, actually laid out a firm, clear position on how much income tax should be devolved, even when directly asked on TV. Yet you’ll find page after page of Google results containing newspaper stories professing to know his position, some of them directly contradicting pieces in the same newspapers just weeks ago.
Murphy is the consummate modern politician, able to talk for hours without actually saying anything, a blank slate onto which people can project any meaning they wish without fear of his making a statement that would conflict with it. As such he’s a gift to the press, which can therefore fill endless column inches with their interpretations of woolly, ambiguous comments. But not one of them can be relied on, because all of Murphy’s speeches are painstakingly constructed for total deniability.
We don’t expect that characteristic to be altered by anything he says today (and as we’ve already noted, Murphy’s opinion on the subject doesn’t actually affect anything anyway). But we’re intrigued to see what Labour leadership voters make of it all.
So, his minions get their lackeys in the Scottish press to throw every possible position at the wall in order to see which sticks? I wonder what their focus groups are telling them about the appeal of a man with the air of a creepy priest?
Will o’ the wisp politics?
Naw, just the usual subterfuge.
“Murphy is the consummate modern politician, able to talk for hours without actually saying anything,”
I don’t think we’ve actually missed out on anything there. 😀
The rat is an opportunist with no politics or principles. He would have the cheek to stand as First Minster of an Independent Scotland: such is his belief in himself as a celebrity superstar, encouraged by the rat meejah.
If enough powers come to Holyrood it will be incumbent on us voters up here to ensure that we do not breed a similar obfuscating herd of career opportunists who only want to hear from us on one day every five years.
I am willing to bet that Murphy and SLAB already know what will be in Smith Commission and are positioning themselves accordingly.
If Jim Murphy introduced himself to me as Jim Murphy i’d seek a second opinion.
Perhaps someone who lives in his constituency could email him for clarification ….
Murphy wants what is best for Murphy, a nationalist in a nation of one.
FULL INCOME TAX POWERS CAN F*CK RIGHT OFF, SAYS MURPHY
Pienaar’s Politics podcast
Labour’s Jim Murphy
Sun, 2 Nov 14
(income tax questions start at 30:45)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/pienaar
Jim Murphy: “When Scotland has voted so strongly – with over two million people voting No to stay as part of the United Kingdom – it wouldn’t make sense to give up voluntarily one of the real strengths of the United Kingdom, which is a devolved tax system, yes – but while retaining aspects of a UK system. And I do think that’s important, that sharing and pooling.”
John Pienaar: “In saying that, Jim, you’re taking on a substantial slice of your own party in Scotland and probably an even bigger slice of public opinion among the voters of Scotland. Are you prepared to do that, and do you think you can win?”
Murphy: *says some stuff*
Pienaar: “So the answer, then, is you think it’s their job, if you’re elected leader – it’s going to be their job to fall in behind you. And if you think full income tax is a bad idea, it’s going to be their job to support that view.”
Murphy: “So the Scottish Parliament, in my view, should have more tax powers.”
Pienaar: “But not full tax powers.”
Murphy: “At the moment, the devolution commission, after two years work, came to the view that it has, and I’m not going to, in the early hours of our leadership contest, undo two years of work.”
Will the real Jim Murphy stand up?
‘I am standing!’
Aye, but for what?
Jim Murphy has just made a speech today quoted on BBC website backing full income tax powers and an increased rate for those earning over 150k. Seems he’s backing what Gordon Brown calls a “Tory trap”. Tax on the rich will be popular I’m sure. Nicol S should better that.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30187369
The above seems to state quite clearly what his position is on devolved income tax and also taxing of the rich with a 50p band.
Although it seems to be more funny with the article on gender equality between the lab candidates – the two guys get their views in first and then they let the wummin speak…(or am I just being toooo sensitive here?)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30067396
Although I found the following paragraph a tad strange…
“The addition of ministers Shona Robison and Angela Constance to the current Cabinet in April this year means women currently make up 40% of its members.”
Whit Bob Sinclair said
Looks like Murphy has heard a leak (via Slovenia?) about full tax powers being devolved by the Smith Commission and has decided to jump on the bandwagon.
He just gives me the creeps – he just oozes insincerity out of every pore in his body.
The SLAB leader they rightly deserve to get – hell mend them.
“I’ve always supported a full blown Scottish Socialist Republic”, said Uriah Heep on the way to the bank, with his wheelbarrow, carrying his long growing Pinocchio nose and running over Jiminy Cricket.
Kelvin McKenzie wishes the National every success so that Scotland can get out of the way and save the English taxpayer a load of money, however he would’nt, as he puts it, have had two ugly politicians on the front page….Oh the bitterness
It would be so easy for even a second rate journalist to pin this fraudster down. The fact that noone has done so speaks volumes.
@ aldo macb, 1:03pm
Is it from this website page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30187369
Maybe it is just me, but, if this is what you are referring to it does not say to me that he backs full devolution of tax powers, just that it would be as significant to the Scottish party as changing Clause IV was to UK Labour. The man is a master of weasel-words and I don’t trust anything he implies.
Does he now want to take credit for that policy if it comes to be after the Scottish Government have already called for it in their submission to Smith? I don’t suppose he cares as long as he fools people into voting for Jim Murphy and the Labour Party.
Unprinicipled.
If the Scottish Red Tory supporting journalists refuse to pin the fraudster Murphy down on one of his many, many contradictions, you can bet that the new FM will, as soon as the opportunity arises.
Sock it to him, Nicola!
He’s a doubleplusgood duckspeaker.
Apologies yet again folks – the post at 1:24pm attributed to Jim Thomson is again one of mine. Forgot to change the address
Really must remember to change the address block each time – it is downright annoying. Anyone got any ideas why my better half’s name is now appearing in the address block in my area? This is on Chrome. When I use Explorer (don’t laugh, I like it), I always have to populate the address because it is now blank.
Excuse this auld biddy 🙂
Murphy is just the mouth piece of the Establishment, via London Labour. He’ll say and do what he’s told to do, willingly. He’s a puppet!
Oh why is there not a satirical comedy show dedicated to the inane rantings of Murphy and Co.
Murphy on gender equality:
It is because so many women in our movement have demanded change that the country has sat up and taken notice”
End Quote
Jim Murphy
Scottish Labour leadership candidate.
Neil Findlay is no better, just inane drivel that they dreamt up in the pub.
Why anyone would dream of voting for these numpties is beyond me.
@G.Campbell
Thanks for posting the link to Pienaar interview so we can all hear it direct from the horse-faced mouth: Full income tax powers bad for Scotland.
Now if that is his principled (sic) personal opinion and he’s prepared to argue it through the leadership campaign and beyond, then fair enough. Many on the Yes side are also dubious about devolving powers that only cover income tax while corporation tax, VAT, borrowing powers, remain reserved. Indeed Wings has previously aired the view it may be a stitch up to give Holyrood the appearance of more power and accountability but in reality leave the Scottish Government hamstrung on actual revenue receipts yet het for people’s ire as UK austerity budgets bite deeper and longer than ever before.
St. Jim, of course, isn’t arguing from that viewpoint – his job is to shore up Labour lobby fodder for Westminster and devolving tax could leave them exposed to Daily Heil / Tory / UKIP screams if they required Scottish MPs to pass a budget. Perhaps that’s why there appears to be an attempt by the MSM to build a consensus around devolving Income Tax to Scotland; it has all the appearance of being substantial but on its own it is in fact a poisoned chalice. Rejection by the Yes side will be portrayed as the SNP being frit and/or demanding powers beyond anything for which they can claim a mandate.
It’s easy to become distracted by St Jim’s sophistry but it’s a distraction and the MSM have no interest in pursuing him on it. His election as branch officer is all but ensured, but the great game of burning the the SNP and the independence movement is really what’s at play here. We should be prepared for a BBC-led media onslaught for the SNP and Greens to gobble down the recommendations of the Smith Commission regardless of what turkeys it serves up. Beware of Lords bearing gifts, I say.
Mibee Aye, Mibbee Naw …….. Mibbee just Mibbee.
Would you buy a second hand tax proposal from Jim Murphy?
He’s only making plans for Murphy! He had a great shadow job at UKOK Defence then he got the bullet from Ed for why? who knows. So he’s treading water in a nice warm sea of teamGB tory boy BBC meeja that need him as much he needs them. If Ed goes under, oor Jim is back in business. Their Scotland region just an ickle wickle field of power struggles for these guys. Thanks again proud Scot buts.
empty vessels……
lets hope it gets smashed in GE15
Perhaps Murphy isn’t the problem … It’s the MSM which lets him away with it instead of crucifying him for having zero principles! Worse, they actually facilitate and support his behaviour. If we had a free impartial press and more real journalists, Murphy would never have survived in politics.
Why is the MSM devoting endless publicity to what is an internal Labour election? It has obviously already been decided that Jim Murphy has to “win”. But he has no influence on Labour policy.
Surely it would be more relevant to report on what the actual Scottish Government thinks about income tax?
Resfreshingly, The National has nothing at all on the Murphy media fest.
More interestingly, it reports on the MOD announcing that all UK submarines will be stationed on the Clyde by 2020.
It is some kind of newspeak,so there must be a word for holding two positions at once.
@Raul Godsword says:25 November, 2014 at 12:39 pm
So, his minions get their lackeys in the Scottish press to throw every possible position at the wall in order to see which sticks? I wonder what their focus groups are telling them about the appeal of a man with the air of a creepy priest?
Raul, I am certain that there is no place on this blog for sectarian and offensive language such as you have used in your last sentence.
This press release has mcternan’s fingerprints all over it
The real con is not what Murphy said or didn’t say, after all, if he steps down in May, he won’t be voting on this issue. It is ed milliband who, regardless of whether labour win the ge in May who will be voting on this issue. Has the bbc or any journalist asked the labour front benches if they support this? Are the shadow cabinets comments covering the front pages in the English editions of these newspapers? Does anyone in England even know who Murphy is?
How an milliband argue that it is a scottish issue only when the fate of the smith commission will be decided in Westminster?
A lot of the argument about whether it is good or bad, comes down to whether it is devolved in isolation. Income tax alone simply isn’t enough.
We need powers over a far wider range of taxes to grow the economy and make up for any Barnett shortfall.
Income tax rates are simply not flexible enough to attract investment, especially when the only pressure will be put up the top rate, then see some high earners leave.
The real trap is thinking labour will have made a huge concession if we end up with income tax and some welfare powers.
People expected FAR more when we were promised Home Rule, close to federalism.
“FULL INCOME TAX POWERS CAN F*CK RIGHT OFF, SAYS MURPHY”
Excellent work. Will use that later.
@Capella, spot on. Seems the MSM are just working up a frenzy of Murphmania, to remind everyone who will be the SLab sock puppet.
Saw that the MOD are moving to bring more subs up here, and are applying for planning permission to extend the nuclear waste dump in Argyll.
Next resource up for pillage is water.
When Ed Balls proposed a return of the 50% tax rate in Jan 2014 the IFS calculated it would raise no more than £100 million across the UK.
http://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/7066
Jim Murphy has argued that a 50% tax rate introduced only in Scotland would raise £250 million.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30187369
Murphynomics in full play here.
They say the SNP machine is very disciplined. Well, they have to be, I could not fight against this lot, I’m falling over laughing in disbelief every five seconds…
msean says:
25 November, 2014 at 1:54 pm
It is some kind of newspeak,so there must be a word for holding two positions at once.
::::::::::::
May I suggest …….
Bivocal?
Antonymist ?
@ Dr Ew says:
“St. Jim, of course, isn’t arguing from that viewpoint”
“It’s easy to become distracted by St Jim’s sophistry”
Dr Ew, would you be so kind as to make clear the use of the title ‘St.’ before Jim Murphy’s name please.
I’m certain he has not been canonised; nor is he ever likely to be so. I am equally certain that he has not lead an exemplary christian life thus far, such as might explain the use of the title St.
Well that’s me done me bit for today – bought and read the National, then left it on a table in the cafe. Hopefully somebody will pick it up and read it.
I could tell Mr Murphy that there is a small problem with the press in this country, it is not that do not do the bidding of the Labour Party (Scottish Branch) no that is a given. Look how well they did giving Gordon Brown a swell head. No what happens is that once they have got you to the top Mr Murphy, they spend the remainder of your time knocking you down.
If you do not believe me, look at every Celebrity, they cannot wait until you have got yourself in a pickle.
I have to say that there are 1.6 million people here in Scotland, right behind them.
@ Dr Jim
Kelvin McKenzie is at best, an irrelevance who is hurting beyond words that his pearls of wisdom are no longer sought as they once were. And they were irrelevant then, too.
Macnakamura – I like the Murphspeak being described as ‘bivocal’ = saying one thing in public and then another thing in public. (a la AS). 😉
Luig,
just spotted a copy of the National on a work collegues desk.
smiled as i went past but maybe a Labour supporter finding out what all the fuss is aboot.
Either way publicity seems to be working
Run, Forrest, run!
Valerie,
Next resource up for pillage is water.
Yes i work for a certain Water company in Scotland and you are correct in your assessment.
They have tried on numerous occasions (the last one was Lib dems trying to sell it off) has been fought against on every occasion.
The SG have pledged to keep it in public ownership, but if the Slab politicians got in guess what would be one of the first things to be sold off? along with the closure of Grangemouth.
Devolving 100% of Income Tax without other significant taxation and income streams to the control of the Scottish Parliament is a poisoned chalice.
On Smith’s Commission powers to Scotland it is worth reading Jim and Margaret Cuthbert’s article on BBC and Robert Peston on the topic of Scotland’s subsidies.
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/10/26/bbc-round-2-it-turns-out-peston-missed-out-the-oil/
I wonder how the union members who have been paying political subs to the Labour Party feel about this. I get the impression Jim is not their favoured candidate.
Why does the MSM think that so blatantly telling union members that their opinion doesn’t count will make them accept Murphy?
Kelvin Mackenzie’s derogatory comments about the appearance of both the FM and DFM on the front page of the NATIONAL, was unworthy of any political commentator. However, Mackenzie, isn’t he the idiot who, whist editor of the Sun, upset the entire population of Liverpool over his fantastically idiotic comments about the Hillsborough tragedy?. Is that why he is no longer at the Sun?.
In case he is unaware the tax payers of the rest of the UK are those who need the wealth of Scotland to keep them afloat.
Do some research Mackenzie, before you rant again.
What a prattling idiot you are.
Sorry, I should have pointed out, he made his comments on the BBC Daily Politics earlier today. Where else eh?.
@Sinky
I read that article by the Cuthberts. The debate seems to be about the dangers of devolving all of income tax on its own.
However, there is another danger; that all of income tax is devolved, and very minor ones are as well, such as Air Traffic Duty (it is actually quite a useful one to be fair), Capital Gains etc. This would be presented by the MSM/unionists as a good deal. However, as far as I can tell, if there is no deal on Corporation tax revenues, some VAT, National Insurance, some North Sea oil revenues, then we are up shit creek. Is this a fair assessment of the situation?
This graph appears to show that the big four tax revenues for Scotland are Income tax, North sea oil, National Insurance, and VAT. Corporation tax and fuel duties are further down the scale. My main concern is that we will get all of income tax devolved, along with minor ones to make it look like a good deal for Holyrood, when in fact it is a terrible one.
http://weegingerdug.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/graph.jpg
T Jenny and Macnakamura maybe he’s trivocal – says one thing in public then another thing in public and then something completely different in private! Who cares – its all lies anyway.
Murphy has made an artform of empty speech by having others spill words to gauge the reaction.It is like throwing a handful of grass in the air to see the wind direction.
He only emerges from the shadows when he knows the direction of the wind. He exceeds well at confirming that which is already known.
He is not a leader. He is detritus blowing in the wind.
John Dryden : ” They think to little who talk to much. “
tombee you’ve got Kelvin all wrong – we should be gathering his gutter utterings into a book a la “The thoughts of Chairman Mac” and distributing them via the WBB network across the land to every home – imagine the upset he would cause amongst the naysayers. Independence? A done deal in this man’s hands!
You cannot trust the word or judgement of any person who says that “many people who voted YES weren’t voting for Independence”.
There is another way to look at this.
If Income Tax can be fully devolved, it simply follows that it is a good idea to devolve all other taxes revenues.
The basic principle is looking after your own income and outgoings. Simples.
@manandboy
Sorry, I used the term St Jim because I was under the distinct impression Murphy HAD been canonised – by the BBC, STV, the Record, the Daily Mail, the Express, the Herald, the Scotsman, the Times, the Guardian, the Independent, the Telegraph, Ed Miliband and, last but not least, his Holiness Tony Blair.
So as far as the ordinary Labour Party member, Scottish voter or casual observer of our political scene might discern, it is very easy to believe there is One who walks among us that can say or do no wrong.
Maybe the St. in St.Jim stands for SHIT!
http://www.labourhame.com/murphy-speech-full-text/#comment-126518
Jim’s all for it. States it quite clearly here. Wouldn’t do to want less powers from Scotland than the Smith Commission after all. He’ll be nervous now though
“Jim’s all for it. States it quite clearly here.”
Actually he doesn’t. He just says he’ll back what the Smith Commission says.
Murphy get ma goat !
Just in from an 18 hour shift , so apologies not read the thread tonight .
Murphy says
” I support the Full Devolution of income tax ”
This annoyingly is very different from what he is pretending to say
I support the devolution of Full Income Tax .
He is what ma granny called ” a gie twister ”
Let listen closely on Scotlandtonight .
Tackety Beets. Sorry you had to listen to that drivel from the Three Stooges after a long shift. I just fell asleep waiting on some sense.
What the hell do they stand for other than wining elections just for the sake of it? They are, I quote, “Neither, left, right, or centre”. A vote for me is a vote for me,for me. Findlay lied about his anti Trident credentials, like all if not most, Labourites and if the SCND have any Labourites for members then more fool them. They have done theior worst to wreck that movement. It would be bad enough if it were just “Three” Looney Tunes candidates spouting unsweet nothings, but there are all so appallingly bad and so many of them. Nobody needs ti listen to them any more. I know nobody at heart really likes a snitch, but can their backers have any respect for them at all? They are not even just intellectual lightweights, or insincere wafflers. They show the whole EBC and establishment meejah up for the charlatans they are for giving them any airspace at all, let alone build them up to be super being nothings. If that is all the Pom Frits have as their best shot then they are finished, with nothing else in reserve and the sooner the election comes the better to be rid of them once and for all.
They must be terrified that their evil Empire has come to an end and their dying throes are now directed at the one new kid on the block, ‘The National’ that has the potential, if they have the bottle, to take them all on and finish them off for good in Scotland. The support is obviously there since the Referendum and crying out for a leading newspaper(s?) and a proper voice. Go for it everyone. Keep running ahead of the old dying media grip. British Intelligence may have latched on to their master’s voice, the CIA, in inventing the social media spy centre and lickspittle servants like the Murphys but events have overtaken them and taken their own high flying WINGS over Scotland. Time is not on the side of the slash and burn looters.
Thig ar Latha. “Oor Day Will Come” and sooner than they can cope with.
manandboy says: Raul, I am certain that there is no place on this blog for sectarian and offensive language such as you have used in your last sentence.
Manandboy’s comment says more about his preoccupations than mine, and speaks to the tininess of the mind that is occupied by them. I will not debate fools.