Wings Over Scotland

Why do the unionists lie and cheat to try and frighten the scots into staying in a union which was born out of bullying, threats, intimidation and bribery. They keep telling us we are to weak, poor and stupid to survive and run our own wee country. We are dependant on ENGLISH charity to survive according to the Westminster establishment, HMG, EBC et al. Yet Westminster is desperate to balance its books. How stupid are they if this is truthful, what possible reason can they have for this stupidity and poor financial judgement? Maybe they are just good hearted souls, tell that to the Iraqis, afghans and the chago isle population who were removed from their homeland.
Westminster is a cesspool inhabited by thugs and gangsters, with posh accents. Spiritual it is not.

Feel the fear.

link to bbc.co.uk

With an annual payout of $15bn (£11bn), Shell is the biggest payer of dividends among UK companies.
But some have questioned whether Shell can maintain that payout if oil prices remain low.
In January, North Sea Brent Crude fell below $28 per barrel, the lowest level since 2003.

Back in the day, it was Shell/Esso. A giant UK company, like BP, all built on their North Sea oil and gas foundation. Norway’s Statoil is nothing like as big either UK behemoth’s but they pay their work force much more, have much higher safety and working conditions and ofcourse, Norway’s got their giant state oil pension funds.

All of BP and Shell’s success is down to the Snatcher Thatcher toryboys, then John Major and then Crash Gordo and Bomber Bliar red tories, incase youre wondering where NOT Scots oil and gas went.

And now and once again, the tory BBC freak show uses what’s left of Scots oil and gas to terrify us. How frightfully British.

Michael Gove just does not seem to realise his political career is over. No one likes a snitch. Totall non self awareness. Delusional. They have crash economy.

There are questioned to be answered about the English education system. How dangerous psychopaths are buying Oxford 1st class degree with public money. Not worth the paper they are written on. Oxford is funded 200 to 1 of other Universities with public money. Regular inspections are required, for value for public money.

I take no credit for this, it came in and email and as I don’t have all your addresses I thought I’d share it here 🙂

So, let me get this straight… the leader of the opposition campaigned to stay but secretly wanted to leave, so his party held a non-binding vote to shame him into resigning so someone else could lead the campaign to ignore the result of the non-binding referendum which many people now think was just angry people trying to shame politicians into seeing they’d all done nothing to help them.

Meanwhile, the man who campaigned to leave because he hoped losing would help him win the leadership of his party, accidentally won and ruined any chance of leading because the man who thought he couldn’t lose, did – but resigned before actually doing the thing the vote had been about. The man who’d always thought he’d lead next, campaigned so badly that everyone thought he was lying when he said the economy would crash – and he was, but it did, but he’s not resigned, but, like the man who lost and the man who won, also now can’t become leader. Which means the woman who quietly campaigned to stay but always said she wanted to leave is likely to become leader instead.

Which means she holds the same view as the leader of the opposition but for opposite reasons, but her party’s view of this view is the opposite of the opposition’s. And the opposition aren’t yet opposing anything because the leader isn’t listening to his party, who aren’t listening to the country, who aren’t listening to experts or possibly paying that much attention at all. However, none of their opponents actually want to be the one to do the thing that the vote was about, so there’s not yet anything actually on the table to oppose anyway. And if no one ever does do the thing that most people asked them to do, it will be undemocratic and if any one ever does do it, it will be awful.

I’m old and my memory is less than perfect, but when EU fishing quotas were allocated originaly were they not given to individual fishing boats. They were allowed to be traded (still are I think) and was it not the case that many of the vessels owners sold those quotas to e.g. Spanish owners?

They then, of course, scrapped their boats.

Dorothy Devine says:
1 July, 2016 at 1:38 pm
“What happens if gormless Gove gets the big job?”

I don’t think he will even get to the ‘final two’, there will be many friends of Boris among the Tory MPs who will be deciding, and I suspect a co-ordinated vote to stop Gove will mean possibly the two women get through to the final.

@Ruby
My favourite stooge on Herald was OBE. Postings can’t be too long or nobody reads them, but sometimes you have a lot to say, a lot of detail.

So make a reasonable size 3 or 4 paragraph posting and sure enough OBE would be along to allow you to add another bit. Then he’s be along again and lo and behold, another bit of the what would have been a two page posting.

Yes, stooges are very useful.

Just to stick my oar in – I like rock and his posts. I don’t agree with everything he writes but I do like his passion and to be honest from what I mostly see him posting is his compete distrust of the media and anything coming from a unionist mouth.

But in saying that – a no voter changing to a yes is worth 2 votes and should be embraced and welcomed and not criticised or treated cynically.

Sky TV seems to think that if you’re born in Scotland that makes you Scottish or is it having a Scottish accent makes you Scottish or is it being white makes you Scottish

They maybe should ask some of our Pakistani Scots or Indian Scots or Polish or Chinese or English and on and on

Scots just are if they want to be whether they’re wearing a turban or a kilt, if they’re on Scotland’s side there’s no difference

So see yer Michael Gove he Iznae Scots he’s one of them and them iznae us, “them” don’t deserve any Nationality

Maybe I’m being naive. Maybe it’s wishful thinking. However ….

If the polls in Scotland begin to show 60+% for Indy, if it’s obvious WM & UKOK no longer offer what we want, if people who were previously NO are speaking out for YES, and if the EU will welcome us ….. It would be time for WM and their front line soldiers in the form of the BBC to back off and take a neutral stance.

Will they fight on to the bitter end, even beyond the point where it’s obvious the Union has expired?

I feel these circumstances are going to be tested very soon.

Some Oxford academics comment on the Brexit result.

The first section has very interesting – and for this site very relevant – things to say about the internet and the EU referendum campaign.

link to medium.com

For example

“ On the one hand, the main Leave camp message was much more intuitive and straightforward, which is particularly important for social media campaigning. On the other hand, their message was also highly emotionally charged, which facilitated the viral spread of Leave ideas. There is evidence to suggest that high arousal emotions such as anger and irritation spread faster than messages focusing on rational or economic arguments, particularly on social media“

@ Petra:

Yes, Petra, i included myself in my post, 2 or 3 times, and as i said we should all be taking a look at ourselves and amending our behaviour and approaches accordingly.

No, i do not think Rock should get “carte blanche” to post whatever he/she wants without challenge. Quite the opposite actually. I made it very clear, if you think he/she is a troll then stop feeding the thing. If you don’t think he/she is a troll but are offended or annoyed at his/her persistent attacks on posters such as Peffers then say your piece and leave it at that, you don’t have to stoop to troll levels to do so.

Note: If Rock is a troll then Rock is succeeding without trying too hard. No responses equals no arguments. Starve the troll and it eventually fades away.

As for your reference to my recent attack on you there is nothing i can say in my defence. I was wrong and could have, should have, approached the subject in a completely different manner and i can only offer you my sincerest apologies. I’m not even going to attempt to justify my behaviour. I apologise!

Kevin Evans: “I like rock and his posts”

Has he told you off for being an idiot holding views that don’t concur with his? That tends to have a bearing on attitude.

A couple of random observations :watched Tasmina last night on Brillo’s show and although he interrupted her as per usual, I cannot believe she is touted as a future leader in WM.She does not seem very bright and was so repetitive about Brexit I turned her off.

The Somme ‘celebrations’…yet another state led distraction aimed at glorifying England’s dead…conveniently writing out Scotland’s sacrifice as a matter of course.

As soon as I heard it was in Thiepval, I knew I was right. ..following on from Phil the Greek and his meal ticket Lizzie flying visit to loyal Ulster to stiffen the troops, the next stop had to be the site of the Ulster’division greatest action. They like all the rest were butchered there.

But that sacrifice has been politicized by Loyalists ever since into a blood sacrifice for the Queen and country. A strange and sad development as at the time not all the men were either Protestants or from only the 6 counties that were hacked out of Ireland in the partition settlement of 1921’22.

So the Royals were there bolstering the present not mourning the past. I wonder if there will be a celebration for the Etaple bull ring mutiny when resting veteran Gordon Highlanders and Anzacs fought and killed bullying redcaps and had to be subjugated by English regiments..then courtmartialed…ringleaders shot and the rest shipped up the front to be slaughtered?

Finally :I see Maurice Gardham has finally come out as the British agent we always knew he was..when will Glenn Campbell etching all join him?

@Stoker, you have also crossed swords with me, over my defence of the National. Whilst we might acknowledge it’s imperfections, my stance remains exactly the same.

We need the National, and I have repeatedly asked folk to get behind it, or stop slagging it off at least.

Besides sustained attack on Mr Peffers, on a daily basis, the other favourite subject is the National, for Rock.

I said in my post last night, I have managed to read Rocks denigrating shit for 2 years, and scroll on.

Personally, I’m sick of it, and because this is a renewed campaign coming up, let’s see if Rock can manage to write as if potential converts are reading it.

Personally, I take the time to read all posts, only post new info, or introduce a new thought response.

I have always ignored the obvious trolls, unless they address me personally.

Gove is about as Scottish as Tony Blair.

Paul Dacre and Rupert Murdoch choose next Tory leader. Not clear who they want to lead the Labour Party yet.
Wonder what Morticia thinks of this news!

link to on.rt.com

7 Days That Changed Our World

52% voted to leave the Eu
Westminster loses all integrity,they have no plan.
Those in power abandon their posts.
Those in shadow power abandon their posts.

MAYDAY MAYDAY

Scotland’s people are asked to respond.

Save Scotland,that is,All to be rescued,no exceptions.

When you are faced with an unreal,ridiculous,absolute bloody disaster,you can do nothing,perhaps pray or cross your fingers,sit tight convince yourself ‘it will be alright’ or you can do something about it,play your part,we all felt the big boom,we all saw the smoke,we all bear witness to the events of the last 7 days,remember Scotland has never and will never abandon you.

Welcome to,Mission Possible.

@ Valerie:

Yes, we have indeed crossed swords over The National and we both have conflicting opinions and that’s natural. We’ve said our piece on the subject but we don’t keep on at each others throats over it.

Its been said on here more times than i can count, we are a broad church with many differing opinions. That is good and healthy and just how most of us want it, if we all sung from the same hymn sheet we’d be Unionists.

And as i’ve stated clearly, there are matters on which i agree with Rock’s position and there are times when i just skip past Peffers posts, simply because i’ve already read and learned the lesson he’s about to dish out. However, i too don’t like to see the repeated same attacks on Peffers because not only are they painting us in a negative light, Peffers has as much right to post his repeated messages as his accuser does.

The situation with Rock, as you know, stems way way back and i doubt very much anyone can put a finger on what started it.

Time for all of us to focus on the battles ahead and getting ready!

yesindyref2 wrote:
“@Stoker – Ouch. Second time in minutes someone misunderstands the point of my posting. I’m off, things to do, people to see …”

Ah thought you were away? I was waiting on your return!
You’ve bamboozled me! Clarify or forever torment me!
The only other way i can take your 5 words is that you were informing us that those were Rocks mentality. Warning us that he/she was deliberately sowing the seeds of doubt with negativity. Have i got it right? If not then you’re going to have to educate me because i can’t work it out, getting tired!

From the times : link to thetimes.co.uk

‘The European Union’s next president has offered to help broker the divorce between Scotland and the rest of the UK should voters elect to dissolve the Union over disagreement on Brexit.

Robert Fico, the prime minister of Slovakia, who is due to take over the EU’s rotating presidency on Monday, said his diplomats would help to negotiate an amicable separation modelled on the so-called velvet divorce that resulted in the break up of Czechoslovakia in 1993 if Scotland decides to leave the UK in order to stay in the EU.’

“Slovaks and Czechs have a unique experience of peaceful separation…

This is a very big difference re Indyref2. We will not be on our own separating from rUK. The EU will be very much involved as they devise our ‘transitional pen’ and negotiate Brexit at the same time.

For readers who may not know, Michael Gove is not only a native Aberdonian but cut his teeth as a journalist at the P&J. During a long running dispute in 1989 I lived almost across the road from their Lang Stracht offices, where a youthful Gove was a regular on the picket line in a struggle for trade union recognition at the paper.

I was involved in fundraisers for the strikers and often stood with the pickets, including the skinny wee bespectacled lad then barely in his 20s (as I was – and skinny and bespectacled too). Chatty, witty and very, very bright I admit I was rather impressed by the young Gove. This guy has the makings of an MP, I thought – Labour, naturally.

Then, one day, I was there when the pickets began discussing the then burning issue of the Poll Tax. I was completely taken aback by his position – essentially that it didn’t go far enough. Soon we were embroiled in a heated debate. His arguments were as disingenuous and intellectually contorted as you might expect – he professed himself a libertarian as I recall, and liked the idea of flat rate general taxation too – but again I have to confess to being impressed by his self-confidence and apparent fearlessness in advancing such a contrary view to a bunch of left-leaning strikers and sundry supporters (some very left-leaning indeed).

I forgot all about him until I stumbled across his pawky gawky face on TV one night in 2003-4, vehemently defending the UK/US invasion of Iraq while still managing to score points and cast doubt on the integrity of Blair and Campbell and their manipulation of intelligence. Shit, I thought, he’s going to become a big deal in the Tory ranks. Subsequently discovering he was thick with Murdoch only confirmed this; Gove was ambituious and calculating enough to all the way.

I don’t know if he’ll outwit Theresa May and win the Premiership but don’t bet against it. If he does win, Nicola should ready herself for an exhausting intellectual match because Gove will fight harder, longer and far more deviously to thwart Scotland’s hopes of independence. He’s a sleekit, arrogant, dishonest little swine but utterly ruthless – and smart as they come.

(By coincidence I also knew Liam Fox very slightly at school in East Kilbride. However (1) he hasn’t a hope in hell of winning, and (2) Liam really, really doesn’t live up to his name.)

@ Stoker Going back, its a persons scatter gun approach to all who disagree with their post, we are a broad collection of People of many political views & non who for the most part agree on the AIMS of this site A THORN IN THE SIDE OF THE CORPERATE MEDIA & PERSUTE OF INDEPENDENCE.

Results of 19th Sept did,nt put us down, we Wingers grew stronger & a few Trolls wont stop what we all respect WOS.

@Stoker
Mahlzeit 🙂

Question is, will May when she is PM try to bury the referendum result? Her instincts are, I believe, deeply anti EU, however that may be a condition made by the hive.

If she does become ‘Smother Theresa’ there is another question.

Will the EU accept that or have they had enough?

Why go through the considerable market disruption and the angst once, only to risk the same again in the not too distant future?

Also, could they even make any further allowances for the UK or would that not just encourage similar, damaging, strop plays from other members? I think not, therefore no further special case pleading can produce anything from her negotiating, not even one slightly old water cannon.

So I think this could bring into existence unprecedented expulsion moves, whether backed by emergency EU legislation or by an extraordinary general meeting of the 27.

@Chic McGregor,

I agree entirely Chic. There is evidently no appetite to press the article 50 trigger. They are stalling for time till the economy begins to indicate leaving the EU would not be in the National interest, They can then sell an exit to the public ( with evidence) as being bad for everyone.

The EU will not tolerate this and may well expel the UK .

Only this morning Holland was voicing the dangers of delay.

“The European Union’s next President Robert Fico (Prime Minister of Slovakia), who will take over presidency of the EU on Monday, has offered to help broker a velvet divorce for Scotland from the rest of the UK if Scotland votes to become an independent nation.”

link to businessforscotland.co.uk

Michael Gove isn’t Scottish. He was born in Edinburgh to an unknown unmarried mother in the days before abortion was available and then adopted at four months old in Aberdeen. When he was a teenager he told his adoptive parents that when he grew up he was going to get the kind of job where you paid just to speak to him.

I truly believe he is the devil’s spawn.

mike cassidy
Very interesting post.

Have you seen this:
link to archive.is

“Banks has been credited with professionalising Ukip’s referendum push through the Leave.EU campaign. He deployed senior executives and staff from his insurance companies and hired the Washington DC political campaign strategy firm Goddard Gunster on a multimillion-pound fee to sharpen its message.

“It was taking an American-style media approach,” said Banks. “What they said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it. The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”

One video on the Leave.EU Facebook page, viewed 1.6m times, begins: “Are you concerned about the amount of crime committed in the UK by foreign criminals?” before ending with the message: “Isn’t it time to take back control.”

“The Conservatives are now trying to rewrite the campaign that immigration wasn’t important, but boy was immigration important,” Banks said. “The first thing we did was poll everybody and we found that if immigration wasn’t the issue, the issue was schools or education, proxies for immigration. It was the number one issue by a country mile.”

O/T.
Gove’s in ah Cove and the tides coming in. Whit say you Mr Brotherhood on the bookies odds on T May’s election chances.

cearc: Yes very different from IndyRef1 when EU membership formed a very large part of the NO campaign.

Here’s the rest of the Times article. I don’t subscribe to the Times but I am able to read Times articles using my Edinburgh Library card.
I’m supposing Eemain is a typo either on the part of the Times or Proqest or it might be something I have never heard of.

“Slovaks and Czechs have a unique experience of peaceful separation and we are willing to share our experience with anyone who is interested,” he said.

Scots voted 62 per cent to 38 per cent for Eemain in last week’s referendum, and Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister, has spoken of a second Scottish independence vote after the Leave win. Francois Hollande accused Britain’s Leave campaigners of lying to voters.

The French president insisted that London would be stripped of its role as a clearing house for euro currency transactions and made clear that he would use Britain’s difficulties to scare voters away from backing Marine Le Pen and her anti-EU National Front in next spring’s presidential election. Talking to Les Echos, a business newspaper, he said: “Lies deceived the British people. It will be up to them to reach their conclusions about the leaders who fooled them. But their choice is irrevocable. Democracy must not be a poker game.”

He rejected calls from Ms Le Pen and sections of Nicolas Sarkozy’s Republicans party for a French plebiscite. “Lies, simplifications, excesses and even the violence we saw … in Britain were not enough for those sorcerer’s apprentices,” Mr Hollande said.

President Obama warned that the short-term economic turmoil gripping global markets could become longterm economic pain.

Speaking at a summit of North American leaders, Mr Obama said: “I think there are some genuine longerterm concerns about global growth if in fact Brexit goes through and that freezes the possibilities of investment in Great Britain or in Europe as a whole.

“At a time when global growth rates were weak already, this doesn’t help,” he added.

PS I spotted a fair number of YES2 stickers when I was out and about today.

A couple of links

link to snp.org

link to blogs.lse.ac.uk

@Onwards
I guess the earlier Indy Ref 2 is and returns a hopeful YES, and negotiations start for a velvet divorce, the more it overlaps with the rUK negotiating for EU exit terms and conditions for a velvet divorce from the EU …

Nothing going on in politics obvs.. back to troll discussions.

Stu moderates and I am quite happy with that arrangement. C’mon team- there is much more important stuff to be dealt with right now.

Edward

I have been enjoying your posts on here re exports, ports etc and would welcome an article on this subject if you can be bothered and have the time to submit something to Stu.

For my own part I have been struggling to put something coherent together and events have made stuff I was going to post largely redundant. We no longer need look back to the 1980s to understand why we need to leave this union as soon as is possible. We need only look back a single week.

I am no expert in anything particularly relevant to these discussions. Having spent the last 8 hours dicing up bits of bleedin carpet on my hands and knees I am not going to be asked to inform Nicola’s strategy anytime soon.

That is not to say I am not acutely aware of the economic impact of these extraordinary changes to our position that are now in play. As someone grafting away in a small business that relies heavily on material produced partly in rUK, partly in the EU I know whatever happens there will be change.

Importing outwith the EU is a complete pain in the arse and sending product outwith the EU is the same. Clearing companies appear to occupy a role the mafia played in Sicily. The single market makes things wonderfully easy whether it be within the UK or the EU. Time to choose.

I personally have little objection with the Euro except fairly ridiculous aesthetic considerations. I have no objection with a separate Scottish currency if that is deemed best. Currency has been portrayed as THE issue when it is nothing of the sort. Its a change, sure- but everything is changing anyway.

We are a country that exports great volumes of quality products and have nothing to fear from the future in terms of trade. We have been bombarded by figures of how reliant we are on trade with rUK for an age and the barrage is intensifying daily.

And yet the central message of the Leave campaign was that we need to look to new markets and not rely on the EU- there is a whole world out there waiting to trade with us etc etc.

Why can we not use that argument to our own advantage- there is a whole EU in close proximity- why rely on rUK for trade when we have some amazing products that can reach a European and global market place.

Just imagine how we can motor once we have the equivalent of the Foreign Office working to push our world-class exports.

Exports are what will drive us forward and cutting off the single market is what will strangle us.

I happen to think that our single best export to date has been in our people, our young people striving for a better life outside our borders. I want our biggest export in the future to be the ideals the Scottish people have to offer the world: equality, democracy, environment responsibility, universality.

We are a progressive, modern, excellent country and I would not swap my Scottish nationality for any other. The future we need to grasp is full of possibilities and the idea we will be dragged out, down with England makes me want to cry.

Time to get behind our First Minister and work towards that future we owe our children and grandchildren. There has been great progress so far and the window is open but we have to grasp this opportunity with both hands as the window will not be open forever.

Maybe like a lot of people who post on Wings now who were once lurkers. I too was a lurker and thought “Naw a bit too radical for me”. My opinion of Wings.

That is the truth, I thought wow some of these people reside on the other end of the scale as far as my views are concerned. I made my first post, later I made another and before you knew it I would post regularly.

This was over a year before the referendum vote mind, I became galvanised and wanted to do what I could in order to gain Independence. I had no party, I was a member on none so Wings became my party.

I did as much as I could to raise the Wings profile, organising social events where we could discuss “face to face” meet real people with real points of view. I believed I helped get Independence Live up and running and did what I could in getting the Wee Blue Book into peoples hands.

I do try my best to inform when I post on Wings in order to educate, I’ll admit that I can also let my lofty goals slip when being drawn into an argument. I have no problem whatsover when people disagree with my views and I might wish to debate my views with theirs.

I have faults, just the same as you do. My passion can overrule my head at times and it’s the same for all those I might disagree with.

Some of you will know this and some of you won’t but a poster on here once threatened to “hunt me down and cut me into pieces” if I called him a troll again. So I called him a TROLL!

I don’t believe in backing down in the face of threats, I’m sure the Rev has had plenty more than me, can’t see him backing down either.

Rock is a lone voice in many of his arguments and that is fine by me, he can deride the National, the Lawyers and the Judges. I don’t think though that he should get off Scot Free when deriding
just another poster.

Examples Robert Peffers repeated pish or Ian Brotherhoods hypocrisy. Or even his statement that I too am “attacking” him.

Disagreeing does not equal attacking.

One last thing, Rock likes to make a point of the hypocrisy of being a member of the SSP yet criticising the SNP. Should the SNP be immune to criticism? I think it’s best that no party should be immune to that. Keeps them on their toes.

On Sept 19th 2014 I joined the SSP with the sole purpose of persuading those of a more left leaning persuasion to support Independence. It was work in progress, not everyone will embrace the SNP so it was deliberate and I believed worthwhile.

Who you are, what you support, your party or your politics are secondary to gaining Independence. ALL are to be welcomed and that is where I come from.

There have been a few posts referring to the CEO of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation (SFF), Bertie Armstrong and the coverage he’s been getting in the media. Its interesting to look more closely at some of his earlier public statements for context.

Firstly, extracts from an article in Fishing News in late 2015 (www.fishingnews.co.uk/2015/08/eu-in-out-talks-are-chance-for-genuine-regional-control/ ).

According to this, Mr Armstrong was “…. urging the UK and Scottish governments in particular to negotiate genuine and meaningful regional control of EU fisheries policy in the negotiations on Britain’s relationship with the EU that are now underway.”

I was not aware that the UK government granted the Scottish Government a role in the pre-EU referendum negotiations with EU member states and institutions: the leader of the Tories in Holyrood would surely have objected to any such role. And I wonder if David Cameron even raised fisheries issues as he negotiated his (unremarkable) ‘deal’.

Mr Armstrong is also reported as saying that if the UK votes to withdraw from the EU there would be an “immediate, fundamental change” for the industry and “The UK’s long-lost control over the greater part of the northern European fishing grounds would be restored.” However he adds, while this is a fact and “instinctively sounds like a very good thing”, it was not necessarily a decisive argument in favour of withdrawal. Mr Armstrong is hedging bets there it would seem.

The article goes on to report what Mr Armstrong sees as the other elements to consider: ‘there would need to be “a positive balance” between the gain from leaving the EU and the other effects, such as the need to renegotiate reciprocal fishing and marketing terms with the EU and third countries such as Norway in particular.’ And in any event he asks, would the UK and Scottish governments make a better job of managing fisheries than the EU? “Part of the problem is that, however much we may dislike the thought, the reality is that fishing and the fishing industry is not a major economic force in the UK or even the Scottish economy.”

I think we can all be pretty sure that it won’t be a high priority for a Tory BREXIT government in Westminster! I wonder how well trickledown economics will work in favour of fishing communities?

Having pointed out the control exercised by the EU and criticised its policies towards the fishing industry, the article ends with Armstrong criticising the SNP. He states: “… since the SNP came to power they have had seven years to do something about the CFP (Common Fisheries Policy) and they’ve done nothing.”

However in the evidence Armstrong gave to the House of Commons Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee in 2011 on EU proposals for the reform of the CFP (www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmenvfru/1563/1563i.pdf ) he acknowledges the limited power of the Scottish Government over EU policy changes but what’s even more notable, he does NOT want the Scottish Government to take any actions towards the EU fisheries regime that are different from the position taken by the UK Government. Here are extracts from his oral evidence:

“As you are fully aware, the management of fishing is devolved, but it is executive devolution to execute the rules as set by Brussels and agreed by the member state, which is the United Kingdom. We are endeavouring in the Scottish industry to make absolutely sure that Defra (the relevant UK government department) and the organisation previously known as the Scottish Executive are hand-in-hand in this matter. Indeed, that is largely the case; there are no areas of dispute where there would be advantage or disadvantage gained if a direction were taken that would split the two Administrations.”

(In passing, this reference by Mr Armstrong to ‘the organisation previously known as the Scottish Executive’ was made in 2011, c. 4 years after the use of the term “Scottish Government’ was introduced and in common use!)

Asked by a member of the HoL committee for an indication of any specific measures that could be introduced to safeguard the Scottish fishing fleet, Armstrong replies: “The Scottish fishing fleet? Actually, we are thinking more along the lines of the United Kingdom fishing fleet because the rules ought to apply to us all.” So nothing needed specifically for the Scottish fleet.

By implication, an SNP government should not act in any way different from the direction set by the UK Government, which has been in turn the only source of direct influence on EU policy to date.

Does this mean that on the CFP that the SNP is bad because UK Government has been bad …. or from a unionist perspective, is it just always SNPbad. And would the SNP have been really, really bad if it had diverged from the position of the UK Government in the interests of the industry in Scotland?

@cearc

Aye nothing happening in Scottish politics, no not a damn thing.

Heard Gove on R4 (spits out bad taste in my mouth) telling us all that he wouldn’t enact Article 50 until next year because we’re in charge of when we go.

He might have made a bit of a mistake there.

Too many posters to thank individually but thanks to all for the welcome and the comments on my previous post this morning. Hope it all pans out like many say but I’m already envisaging WM as the end-of-level boss on the horizon!

@Dr Ew
Fascinating about Gove, but I’m not surprised, he comes over as a supremely confident snake, manipulating to get what he wants.

I was gobsmacked, watching his speech, outlining lots of good sounding almost socialist stuff. If ANYONE believes that he will give Scotland anything like valuable fishing rights, they are completely deluded.

I think it’s definitely May or Gove, but I’m quietly confident of our FM, and her team are more than capable of dealing with. The issue is protracted haggling, and again SNP will judge timing etc.

I watched Angus MacNeil as Chair of Energy committee, grill Leadsom, and he was incredibly prepared, so he made her and her bagcarrier, look pretty lame.

We have a very bright bunch up here in gov’t, who can run rings around those that swan around as their birth right.

Solarflare,

WM has lost it’s power. It has caused turmoil and pissed off the whole world over a schoolboy tiff.

Scotland now has the upperhand as we have support from other countries.

As Craig Murray said (paraphrased) you become an independent nation when other countries recognise you as such not by referendums.

The whole situation has changed now. Internationally, economically and constitutionally. Not that anyone would know from articles posted on ‘the leading scottish political blog.’

@Onwards
I really can’t see the EU being vicious towards the UK, nor can I see the UK putting Union with Scotland before the interests of the rUK – no matter how much they bluster about it during Indy Ref 2. They’re thick, but not that thick.

Anyways, another piece in the jigsaw fits into place nicely of course. Indy Ref 1 always had a problem with free tuition and charging EWNI as fellow members of the EU. The SG were talking about getting a special derogation from the EU, which wouldn’t be easy, and perhaps not even possible. All sorts of workarounds, like full fees and busrsaries for Scots, which might not work or be legal.

Well, the rUK will be out of the EU, and can be treated the same as any other non-EU country – i.e. charged as now. No problem.

What’s often forgotten about Gove is that he’s married to a Daily Mail columnist.

Pretty sure the DM has lots of stuff on the tories that they’ve never published. Boris fucked off PDQ when push came to shove – do we really think he did that for Gove, mmmm?

It’ll be May v Gove and we have to hope that this becomes a knock-down, drag-out fight to delay the A50 trigger.

Tick-tock….

re Bertie Armstrong

I forgot to add that the SG should really play hard ball with the SFF as long as that duplicitous Brit Nat snake Armstrong heads the SFF.

Ruby,

Well one thing that they will have to buy (rather than just ‘pool and share’ as now) is electricity.

The import lines from France and NL already run at capacity and England’s production shows no sign of increasing in the short term.

cearc @6.52 pm

One things for sure, the problem of sufficient energy generation is going to get even more acute with the much talked about and much expensive Hinkley Point Nuclear power station plans shuddering to a complete halt.

It looks like EDF might not want to be involved for a start. Also
EDF have discovered that an existing power station has a major structural problem with the pressure vessel (had excessive carbon in the steel, making it prone to crack, something you really don’t want it to do in operation).

With the UK leaving the EU, that also could end EDF’s involvement

In addition to that there is a lot of EU funding earmarked for renewable energy projects. Take that out and no projects

It will probably result in, not so much the last person leaving England, turn the lights out, they will go out anyway!

Can’t stress how important this is. It’s Friday night and you should all really be stretching to what you can to give to this fundraiser. This as I said before will be a huge enabler to the many Yes groups around the country.

It sits 33% funded after 36 hours,

‘That’s fantastic’ I hear people saying.

No it is not!!!

IT SHOULD BE OVER SUBSCRIBED ALREADY!!

GET ON IT PEEPS!!

link to indiegogo.com

To those who have already donated what they can, and those who can’t help out at this time ignore the caps lock screaming and post a link somewhere or tweet the appeal.

Like I said this is about a lot more than a few flegs.

Thanks folks 🙂

@Edward
According to the French, freedom of movement is on the table, especially countries that are very close like Norway and Switxerland: ““When we negotiate with a country, a third party, Norway, Switzerland, to take countries that are very close, we discuss all subjects: under what conditions there is freedom of movement of people; freedom of movement of goods; of capital” (Sapin, French finance minister).

Similar sensible noises from a Hardtalk interview with a French representative last night, forget her name, (but Heed would have been jumping up and down). Oh, and the word from the French so far is Hinckley Point will go ahead.

What the EU wants already more than anything, is stability. Same will be true for iScotland, in the EU, and out of the UK, for both the EU and the rUK.

Rugby @5.46pm

“La presse britanique a echoue a combatre les mensonges politiques. De la courbure des bananas aux bus a deux etages”

The British press failed to combat the political lies. From the curvature of bananas to double decker buses”

Edward says: I find your posts very interesting.

The bit that caught my eye just now was

‘In the main if they go to a trade fair, they either don’t try to speak the language, don’t find out about local customs and haven’t a clue about shipping terms.’

This caught my eye because I was wondering about the wisdom of not allowing EU students to study for free in Scotland. Perhaps what we should be doing is encouraging Scottish students to go to study in the EU where they require to speak another language.

Perhaps the deal should be only students from countries that are able to offer the same deal to Scottish students should be allowed to study for free.

Who is the new Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, anybody?

So it seems that Murdoch and Dacre support Catwoman May, who has already told us our human rights are whatever she decides. So that’s that sorted.

As a 21st. Century reincarnation of Thatcher, I can hardly think of a better PM to increase Yes voters in Indyref2.

O/T: I am pretty disgusted at the predictable Britnat treatment of The Somme slaughterhouse, complete with Royals. As usual, it glorifies the senseless deaths without analysing any of it. I never thought I would agree with the Archbishop of Canterbury, but when he said it all represented the failure of the political class, he was quite correct.

Duncan Duff’s “Scotland’s War Losses” is a valuable corrective, as well as being a store of useful statistics. It’s available free on-line because it’s quite hard to find on paper.

The Brexiteers have rolled back 60 years of cooperation which was itself a humanitarian reaction to the obscenity of war.

We really need out of this defunct Union and take our place again among the family of progressive, outward-looking European nations.

Does that make our new Shadow Secretary of State the person with the shortest ever time as Shadow Secretary Of State For Northern Ireland –

or is he doubling up in these difficult times?

“Told you I go on a bit”

Please, go on a bit more! These are important aspects of economics and trade that we never hear anything substantive about from our so-called betters, and it sounds very much like they have been spinning pish in these areas as they have proven to do in pretty much every other area of life. Naturally, one should take that as a given, but having some solid facts of relevance to hold onto is like having anti-pish vaccine!

See, I can go on a bit too. 😀

Does any one have a figure for how much the fishing industry in Scotland`s territorial waters is,

and who is fishing in our waters,

if they are our waters to exploit why do we let others take what is ours,

like our oil is our fishing rites being abused by Westminster.

@Edward
That’s not what Sapin said. He said it’s ALL on the table, i.e. they can negotiate with the country on open terms. In other words it’s not a case that the UK has to accept full freedom of movement, it’s negotiatble.

Just noticed a story about Easyjet in talks with the EU regarding moving its head office from the UK to a EU state

This is due to wanting to maintain its air operator’s certificate (AOC) .

Easyjet’s operations are only possible due to the UK being in the EU. Fortunately for Easyjet the bulk of its operations are outside the UK

Ryanair can also be affected by the UK leaving the UK, but it already has its head office in Dublin

Likewise British Airways will be affected, but its parent company IAG is headquartered in Madrid (IAG also own Iberia, Aer Lingus, OPen Skies and Vueling)

But in all cases all airlines operating between the UK and each of the EU countries may have to apply for additional licences (which they dont need at the moment as its covered by the EU single open skies policy)

There are enough EU students and wealthy students from elsewhere in Scottish University 20%+ getting a Scottish taxpayer subsidised education. When Scottish students cannot get full access to their own Universities. Funding would be better spent on early learning years in schools. To get more pupils into Universities.

Exchange students (1 or 2 years) are different. Scottish students go to study in other Universities worldwide and students come to Scotland, studying for free. Average fees in EU Universities are average €1000 a year. – £700. now approx £900 because of the drop in the value of the £ because of Brexit vote.

Scotland trade figures do not take into account. The cost of materials, labour, expenses etc. These would have to be deducted. Scotland receives £Billions in investment from the EU and (European) banks, for renewables, infrastructure etc. The EU prioritises essential investment to bring benefits to all the EU. Scotland is uniquely placed geographical for renewable energy. i.e. Climate, wind, sea wave and sun. Best in the world. The highest wind speeds (turbine) in the world were recorded in the Isle of Lewis.

Hinkley Point is a total absolute waste of public money. A disaster waiting to happen. Cost £100Billion eventually , years late and overbudget. A £10Billion tribal barrage would produce more safer fuel and power. HS2 is an appalling waste of money which will make journey through Britan take longer. No business case and it will end up costing totally over tine and budget. £100Billion. Money would be better spent improving and electrifying the whole rail net work.

@yesindyref2 says: 1 July, 2016 at 3:54 pm:

” … His personal attacks on Peffers, no, they should stop.”

Ach! yesindyref2, If he is sniping at me he is leaving someone else in peace, someone who may be upset. As for me I don’t hurt easily. I’ve been campaigning for Scottish independence since we were so thin on the ground that it was a great event if you met another SNP member.

We were regarded as a bit odd way back in the late 40s and early 50s. Treated worse than Jehovah’s Witnesses we were. Anyway I tend to ignore him except to give him the occasional prod with a stick. Just to check he’s still alive you understand.

Tories promising more powers for Scotland seem to have forgotten we already have a power they don’t have and that’s the power to choose, whereas they just gave theirs up

For the Yoon types crowing about replacing one set of rulers with another, the Yoons are always banging on about being controlled by Brussels but if that’s the case Scotland is controlled by Westminster AND Brussels so in actual fact we’re getting rid of Westminster so that’s one less isn’t it

Or is my counting wrong

Just another thought about imports
England doesn’t grow enough to feed itself that’s why it has to import food from the EU But Scotland can feed itself and more so will England not have to pay Tariffs to Scotland to import food from us in the future thereby making the Scottish farmers happier than they think they’re not at the moment making the EU more attractive by the minute (I’m basing this thought on a guess)

Soebody who knows more on this might enlighten us

The argument of more powers (fishing, agriculture etc) if Scotland leaves alongside rUK is moot. It cannot be used to tempt us to vote against independence.

If Scotland leaves alongside rUK, we will get these powers anyway. Any powers that are not specifically reserved to Westminster are deemed to be automatically devolved.
If we get independence, we get all powers.

British Airways have a whole terminal at Heathrow. Terminal 5 was recently built. People can miss their flight because of congestion and delays.

Scott Finlayson @ 7.40pm

Don’t have time to answer your question directly but these sources are rich in relevant stats on marine fisheries.

link to gov.scot

link to gov.scot

link to seafish.org

Don’t ban the Orange Marches relocate them to the country who’s allegiance and crown they pledge themselves to

They’d have to hire coaches to take them to their motherland
Let’s see how long the English could put up with them banging their big drums outside their houses at 9pm on a Saturday and Sunday morning

Now there’s an export I’d like to see

Interesting Article.

Austrias Supreme Court overturns Presidential Election due to Postal Vote Irregularities.

Postal votes tampered with and altered, foreigners allowed to vote. Underage voters allowed to vote.

link to bbc.co.uk

ken500

on orange order marches. I would not ban, but make them hire public areas like Glasgow green for the day, make them pay their way. keep them out of public eye so to speak.

let them dwindle away. they are pathetic, but give them no grounds for grievance by banning them, as much as I would like to see that.

@ Albaman

But he has a Scottish name…

@ Dr Jim

The advantage for Scots farming viz English trade is quality, distance and freight cost. No tunnels or boats. The EU does have tariffs on goods like wine from outside the EU. I thought myself that rUK could get cheaper wine from outside the EU once they left, and wondered if they would get seasonal agricultural produce from more non-EU countries too. Particularly North America.

I note that most places with borders to different tax jurisdictions seem to have glaring disparities in duty paid goods. Around Germany I have seen Fuel cheaper in Austria and Luxembourg. In Ireland Diesel is cheaper in the Republic. I wondered whether Carlisle folk will come to Scotland to fill their car and Scots would drive to Carlisle to fill their boots.

Dr Jim says:
1 July, 2016 at 8:02 pm

Don’t ban the Orange Marches relocate them to the country who’s allegiance and crown they pledge themselves to

Ruby replies

Their Queen is currently in residence at Holyrood I expect that is why they marched down the Royal Mile.

They wanted to play some music for her before she went to bed.

Dr Jim re Orange Walks one of my mates , a deep thinker, told me decades ago, that in the event of the reunification of Ireland and Scotland had not regained its freedom, then all the ultra-unionists from Northern Ireland would want to relocate to Scotland. He feared that this would stymie Scots Independence and he had looked at all the options , and came to the conclusion that since their ancestors had been planted in Ulster then they would not mind being re settled in the Falkland Islands.

Think that would solve a few problems 🙂

@Lenny Hartley
Once Article 50 is invoked, negotiations start. Well, with negotiations either side can say NO. Neither side is forced toa gree to anything. In theory at the end of the 2 years,, nothing has been agreed at all, everybody has said “NO”, and the EU says bye-bye, thanks for all the fish.

So Merkel and Hollande are completely entitled to set their position at this stage, and enter the negotiations frm that position. Whether that will end that way, who knows?

Edward
Wondered if you have any thoughts on European Companies that own things like UK utilities,having the ability to play hardball with Westminster once it is no longer an EU member?
By the way you really should do an article for us….please.

WARNING THIS POST CONTAINS SWEARING. PLEASE SCROLLS PAST IF YOU ARE OFFENDED BY SWEARING

I bet these Orange Fuckwits will be back tomorrow when their Queen will be going up and down the Royal Mile along with Army pipe bands and stuff.

I do think they believe they are part of the armed forces. ‘The Queens Own Orange Brigade’ They had a march on armed forces day.

I understand there will also be loads of horses which will be quite nice to see although the riders never stop to poop-a-scoop.

If you are needing any manure/horse shit for your garden you should head down the Royal Mile tomorrow with your shovel & barrow. You’ll need to go by foot as all roads will be closed.

@Graeme
1). Scotland currently exports more to the rUK than it does to the rEU – it’s nearer. But that can change over time. It’s a silly threat, because Davidson, the Conservatives, nor the UK Government actually control the companies and the custoemrs – we will buy from whom we want.

2). The EU has said no neogitation until the Article 50, so the UK is saying, we invoke Article 50 when we want. Might be this year, might be next but there’s some interesting cricket on, we might leave it until the next GE. The EU doesn’t want that, so might start talking, or might tell the UK to [censored]. It’s a form of negotiation, which started minutes after the EU Ref result was known.

Edward @8.05pm

Not sure if I got the right end of the stick but are you arguing that there would need to be a customs border between Scotland and England to prevent non-EU origin goods from England entering the EU via Scotland? If so, would a simpler solution not be to have customs checks at our ports (sea and air)? Any English lorries found at port would be turned away and would have no choice but return back to England. In effect our border with the EU is the North Sea.

As far as passport control is concerned, we would let all EU passport holders enter at our ports and they would be entitled to work in Scotland only. As far as nationals from other countries as concerned, we would only let them in with the appropriate passport and visa. To prevent someone high tailing it down to England, destroying their passport and then applying for asylum, we could work closely with the English immigration authorities (just like Ireland does now) and copy passports/take biometric details (finerprints etc). Any asylum seeker turning up in England could be checked on a database and if found to be bogus returned to their country of origin.

If we wish to allow a non-EU national the right to live and work we simply provide them with a visa/work visa that’s only valid in Scotland.

I honestly can’t see any need for a physical border between Scotland and England. Your thoughts?

Graeme , we hold the upper hand in trade with UK, they need our stuff, oil, fish, whisky, electricity, water,beef et al. We are self sufficient in food, electricity, water, oil, whisky etc . An arrangement will be found, presumably they will be on some sort of EFTA deal otherwise they are up the creek without a paddle. So there will still be free movement of people and goods between us. Despite what Indyref2,says above and I can see where he is coming from, however I think the EU will probably not allow them to have free trade without the free movement of people. They will be worried about contagion I also think Germany (Frankfurt) will be eying up the Euro financial trade from the city of London so they in particular will be playing hardball.

Yes I do think that they are trying to wriggle out of the referendum result as they know that they have screwed up big time. It’s up to Nicola and Co to get the timing right for Indy Ref 2 but it needs to be whilst there is still uncertainty over the rUK’s EU membership.

Anyway that’s what I think probably a load of pish!

o/t see On FB that Nicola has been subject to a makeover in Nazi Uniform and
Hitler Moustache , have just Unfriended somebody who I liked for sharing it. Retards.

@ Thepnr ( aye ah bunch of radicals indeed )Ah wiz sitting here gon loopy when ah found Wingers and thanks to you,s lot ah canny put ma feet up, sittin doon in ma smoking jaikit wie ma E gig n a nice Malt. But on ah positive note you,s brough me back from the brink and my Thanks to each & everyone.

Edward,

I think it might be well for you to submit a detailed article for link to businessforscotland.co.uk (as well as here).

I think there are an awful lot of businesses that have no idea how much paperwork they will be hit with post-brexit. Pre-EU you could always spot a companies shipping department by the stacks of stuff everywhere.

“As far as the EU is concerned, Scotland is nothing more than a region of the UK.

They don’t discuss membership with regions.”

Trouble is, Rock, that they’re doing that just now. In all likelihood Scotland will be put into the pending tray until we vote for Indyref2, and then we’ll be fast-tracked into full membership.

@Graeme

1) what do I know, but this sounds like a typical threat we heard in Indyref1, one of those threats which when you think about it doesnt make any sense. The Unionists/Leavers/Brexiteers, whatever, are adamant they will have access to the single market. Which funnily enough is the same single market Scotland will be in as a member of the EU. So how can there be any trade barriers?

2) Angus Robertson speaking on Austrian TV said he didnt think UK would back pedal, because the result of that could be a UKIP landslide in the next GE! If you consider that 53% of England voted Leave, and under the FPTP system only about 37% of the vote can get you an overall majority… Added to that, all the noises coming from the EU are getting a bit impatient… I think the Tory/Labour party are shitting themselves and delaying as long as they can, in the hope that people will forget about the referendum and everything can go back to normal… it never happened, you dreamt it all. In other words they are in denial. But I think they will just have to go ahead with it. Like you I get nervous at the talk of ignoring the result, having a second referendum, kicking Article 50 into the long grass etc. but on balance I think they are kidding themselves on.

cearc

Would Edward not be better looking for business in England.
Scotland is going to remain in the EU!

Perhaps he should wait until they press the A50 button!

Tell everyone in England that everything is going to be great and England is going to sell loads more stuff to all these new markets.

I still don’t know what stuff they are going to sell to all these new markets can anyone give me the answer?

Babycham & Cider?

The UK is not a bigger market than the EU. England 55Million EU 400Million. Scotland gets far more in investment and trade with the EU.

They are manipulating the figures. Exaggerating the English markets with over inflated figures. Including oversees figures? and not taking off expenses, cost of manufacture etc. off. Not including EU and (European) banks investment in Scotland, worth £Billions. They are over inflating one side of the account ie trade with England and not including (balancing) the other side of the account EU investment in Scotland. Missing out important details.

This is what Unionist politicians do. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. They do not have the ability to analyse figures. No experience and incompetent or deliberately corrupt.

Self obsorbed – total unawareness.

Tom Harris calls a politician, ‘A bully who is an embarrassment to a country’.

If Gove doesn’t make people vote YES IndyRef2. Nothing will.

On another topic can anybody explain why when Wales are putting in an absolute stonking performance against Belgium, for at least 5 minutes at half time Lineker and co are talking about England. Give it a rest for feks sake.