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A tale of two rallies

Posted on September 19, 2015 by

Hope Over Fear in George Square today:

hopeoverfear

And “Union Day” yesterday, in the same place.

unionday3

Of course, we already know what it’s like when Unionists do muster bigger numbers.

This, incidentally, was the best picture the BBC could muster of today’s event:

bbhhof

But then, they’ve got some form for that sort of thing.

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    1. 19 09 15 22:44

      A tale of two rallies | Speymouth

    187 to “A tale of two rallies”

    1. george paterson says:

      Looks like the BBC have even put a strangle hold on their cameramen. Police estimate the turnout at 1500…..?

    2. JLT says:

      1500 my backside.

      Sure it wasn’t as big as some rallies we’ve had, but I would still easily estimate it at around 5 to 6,000 (and half of them were in the Counting House)

      Bloody BBC.

    3. David Smith says:

      However did they win..? 😉

    4. The Moidart says:

      Lol. Well done Stu. I estimated between 4 thousand and 5 thousand today and it has to be remembered that the event was on for several hours with people coming and going all day.

      Have to say I felt it was the best rally I’ve attended recently. Was brilliant.

      Looking at the faces on the attendees of the rally yesterday I noticed they are in stark contrast to everyone I saw today.

      Everyone was smiling and talking today. Everyone engaged one way or another. Comparing the two it’s hard to believe that they were celebrating a win…

      And we weren’t.

    5. Gerry says:

      Great day in Glasgow. Well organised and family friendly. It never ceases to amaze me how diverse a cross section of people attend. Young, old, rich, poor, our movement is all encompassing. The 1500 BBC figure is just ridiculous. We were in nearly every hotel and pub near the square and there were over 1500 yessers in the bars, let alone in the square.
      Personal highlight for me was the lassie interpreting for the deaf visually interpreting “ian duncan smith”

    6. john king says:

      Ok
      I managed to get this on the wrong thread,
      take two

      Here’s a Daily Record report about the Hope over Fear rally on 12th of October 2014 where it reports

      “Hope Over Fear Rally: Thousands gather in George Square for pro-independence demonstration

      17:50, 12 October 2014
      Updated 14:29, 24 April 2015
      By Joe McGuire

      A SEA of Saltires took over Glasgow’s George Square as an estimated 7000 people turned out for the Hope Over Fear rally, led by Solidarity Scotland co-convenor Tommy Sheridan.”

      But the BBC report that an estimated 1500 (police estimate) were in attendance today,
      maybe we should ask a man who knows how many people he was looking out on today, Tommy Sheridan, if he thinks there were five and a half thousand FEWER people in George Square today than in October last year because I sure as hell couldn’t see the difference,

      BBC YOU ARE LYING SCUM
      If you had bothered your arse to get a camera crew in a van and drive the arduous distance of a mile and a half from pathetic Quay you would have been able to make your own estimate ,
      but that would have meant you would have been faced with lying directly instead of being able to palm off the estimate onto the police hence removing plausible deniability
      AND WE CANT HAVE THAT CAN WE!

      Oh before I forget
      from the Record, not exactly friends of ours

      http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/hope-over-fear-rally-thousands-4426940
      check out the picture of the crowds folks,
      anyone able to tell the difference between the crowds in the picture and what we were part of today?
      no?
      thought not!

    7. One_Scot says:

      It almost looks like the BBC photographer was trying to take a picture of the building when some people with flags walked by.

      I have said it before and I am happy to say it every day, but if we don’t get some form of unbiased Scottish TV news media, they will continue to eat us for breakfast.

    8. Paul Wilson says:

      In defence of the BBC Tommy Sheridan announced that they were there at 12.00 Oclock but were then sent packing by the organisers for ignoring the run up to today’s even. I bye the way detest the BBC and wouldn’t give them house room. Loved Denis Skinner giving it to them as the were caught lying about him.

    9. Al says:

      Seven people at the “union day” rally? I have to say I’m actually surprised. Are there really that many of them left?

    10. Kenneth Thompson says:

      These should be under the captions “Misty” & “Ayed”.

    11. Clydebuilt says:

      Dave Smith at 9.03pm……However did they win” ……….By lying.

    12. Haggis Hunter says:

      This show the rest of the world that the Scots are not the cowards they took us for one year ago

    13. heedtracker says:

      Have to hand it to everyone at the beeb, they’ve really put on a spectacular display of UKOK bias and attack these last few years alone. It would all be perfectly fine and dandy UKOK media wise, if they weren’t trousering the licence fees of so many suckas, like me.

    14. Iain says:

      The daily record Scotland’s champion never known to lie.

    15. John Fowler says:

      The streets around the event were swamped by people with flags, it was like a major football game was on, not a political rally.

    16. Laverock says:

      The BBC report saying that there were 1500 people ‘at the peak’ there was already on their website at about half 12 this afternoon.

      I wanted to know how many people were turning up. After trying and failing to see the live Webcam I wondered if it would be on the news and checked out the BBC website. We had a laugh at the time to see that the numbers had already been counted and that the (still to happen) day had passed with no incidents and no arrests.

      Nothing to see move along

    17. thomaspotter2014 says:

      Project Fear is still running on and on.

      The BBC are doing what they’ve been instructed to do-disinform,twist,obfuscate,discredit,scandalise,etc,etc.

      Minimalise any Independence related people or topics-project their Establishment crap till they are shut down under the trades description act.(if only).

      This will not change until they are broken and irrelevant.

      We need to hasten that objective as much as possible.

      Let’s finish this with the only thing we have-people power.

      Dry your eyes.

      On your feet.

      We got the end game in sight.

      It ain’t over till it’s over.

    18. Cadogan Enright says:

      Complaints made to BBC

      Got the nice young man at the complaints desk to log into the DAily Record site, the the BBC, then wings

      And send on the 3 links in his report to ,management

    19. Big Jock says:

      The irony is this. If the BBC think their endgame is to misguide reports, distort and lie. Then they are lying to the the hardline unionists who still believe them. The masses of Scotland can see the truth on the streets and online.

      It’s almost like the BBC think most folks tablets and laptops,have an Internet button marked BBC. So if they publish a photo at an obtuse angle the puddins, won’t think to look elsewhere.

      You couldn’t make this stuff up. It’s like Pathe news!

    20. Gary45% says:

      Just got back to the house in Sneck 10.15 pm. long day 6.50am train this morning.
      It was a great day in Glasgow met loads of new friends,
      We have no idea where the EBC got their figures, this is one of the MANY reasons we don’t give the LYING BASTA*DS a penny.
      Thanks to everyone there for making it a memorable day.

    21. indigo says:

      Fab afternoon at George Square, what a super atmosphere & great to see so many people making a beeline for the Wings stand

      Lovely to meet Wingers, as always, esp Paula Rose *waves*

    22. At best about 3000 + were at the event today going by Glasgow webcam IMO but I suppose that BBC Labour did not have the intellectual acumen, or willingness, to be accurate as it might not suit their political agenda.

    23. dakk says:

      David Smith

      ‘however did they win’

      ‘They’may have lost round one(indyref)but they won round two(GE),and when rounds three,and four come up you guys will be looking to hit the canvas to avoid taking unnecessary punishment.

      You are on borrowed time and you know it 🙂

    24. heedtracker says:

      Jim Naughty and Nic Robinson are probably the most mental BBC UKOK henchman in London at least. Jakey Bird sneering at Alex Salmond, under the Botox, in a teatime news interview just before 18 Sept was another fine example of BBC gits in UKOK action.

      “The National Health Service will crash within two years with catastrophic consequences unless the government orders an immediate multibillion pound cash injection, the former minister in charge of care services says.

      The stark assessment from Norman Lamb, minister of state at the Department of Health until May’s general election, comes as fears mount among senior NHS officials, care providers and local authorities that NHS and care services are approaching breaking point.”

      Observer, English eyes only BBC.

    25. Grouse Beater says:

      The BBC is desperate to save money.

      I suggest they close down BBC Scotland. Nobody will notice.

    26. Training Day says:

      Huge turnout of loyal British subjects at Davis Cup in loyal No voting Glasgow dwarfs miniscule rally by separatist insurgent terrorists.

      Back the Brits T shirts still available.

    27. lochside says:

      Attended Freedom Square today and estimated 2500-3000 when we arrived…but we were two hours late and guess total figure over day around double.

      Relaxed atmosphere and family friendly. Sound system suffered from being slightly underwhelming…but thank Glasgow City Council for that.

      Must admit however, personally feel at a low ebb despite it all….feels too much like groundhog day…wish things could move faster…but must keep up the fight.

    28. Bill Hume says:

      Another great event in Glasgow today. I really only
      went to take photographs of all the wonderful and colourful people who attend these things.

      As usual I was not disappointed. A super day spent with super people. Highlight for me was the arrival of the bikers. The noise thundered around the square like some primordial roaring beast.

      Keep up the good work my fellow Scots….we have them on the defensive now.

    29. caz-m says:

      Brilliant day out in George Sq. That’s the biggest turnout of Wingers at any event by far.

      As for the numbers quoted by BBC Scotland, is anyone surprised that their total falls thousands short of what the actual total was.

      BBC Scotland’s aim is to make the YES movement seem insignificant and meaningless.

      But Project Fear 2 just wont wash with the majority of Scots anymore.

      We are primed and ready for the next campaign to begin.

      Bring it on!

    30. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Grouse Beater (10.46) –

      🙂

    31. Tackety Beets says:

      Aww FFS , that effin post / link is from last year !

      So frustrating that folk do it .

      Sorry , maer hurry less speed !

    32. liz g says:

      Typical !!! Nutters turn up when the grown ups have left the young Yin’s tae party.

      By the way lovely to meet all you wingers today x

    33. cearc says:

      In all fairness, the beeb do have an excellent sense of humour at times.

      This evening R4 news were reporting as serious news, that Tim Farron (new Libdem leader that you’ve never heard of) says that the libdems are now the best opposition to the tories!

      How I laughed!

    34. liz g says:

      @Tackety Beets 11.12
      Never been so pleased to find out I had been mislead!! (LOL)

    35. heedtracker says:

      Whatever they say about unionists, they have a great sense of self deprecation, don’t they…

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/littlebritain/characters/daffyd.shtml

      https://twitter.com/dhothersall

      Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall 1h1 hour ago
      Also, Rocco won ‘Best In Show’ as well as ‘Campest Dog And Owner’ at the Austwick Pride Picnic. 🙂

      Vote YES next time Rocco!

    36. Kenny says:

      Enjoyed the rally very much, are there political speakers anywhere else in the world as articulate, passionate and wonderful as Scottish women?

    37. Ian Brotherhood says:

      BBC North Britain Radio News at midnight – Police Scotland estimate the crowd in ‘George’ Square today was ‘fifteen hundred at its peak’.

    38. Cadogan Enright says:

      You can’t beat the on-line subscription to the Sunday Herald and National

    39. Dr Jim says:

      Apologies for not seeing anybody today, I was there trying to find my daughter, then I had a phone call followed by a series of cartoon like misadventures leading to my returning home after only two hours….However…

      Johann Lamont has reached for her big Stabby dagger and placed it firmly between (Scottish) Labour’s shoulder blades once again by saying that because people in the Labour Party now want Independence for Scotland the party should be given a free vote on Indy Ref 2

      She picks her moments does Johann eh

      All to come in a, wait for it BBC Interview

    40. Onwards says:

      Training Day says:
      19 September, 2015 at 10:48 pm
      Huge turnout of loyal British subjects at Davis Cup in loyal No voting Glasgow dwarfs miniscule rally by separatist insurgent terrorists.

      Back the Brits T shirts still available.

      —————–

      Was talking about this in the previous threat.
      The confusion between Britain and the UK

      Andy and Jamie Murray support independence, but have no problem being British as well.

      Andy Murray was quoted as saying ‘I am proud to be Scottish, but I am also proud to be British. I don’t think there is any contradiction in that.’

      We are never going to convince No voters to vote YES if they think part of their identity is threatened. After independence, people can still also be British in a cultural and geographical sense.

      But right now if someone says has a British identity, most people assume that goes hand in hand with supporting the UK union – especially as Britain doesn’t have a flag of its own, separate from the union jack.

      To get well over the 50% mark, the SNP may need to reclaim Britishness. A campaign for a better Britain or something. Independence within Britain, whatever..

      To get it over to the general public, that the UK doesn’t own Britishness, and they would still have it after independence.

    41. Robert Louis says:

      Media as usual misrepresenting the numbers at the rally. I guess part of the problem is that people come and go, so at any given instant, the count is not really representative of actual number who attended.

      I only managed a couple of hours, and whilst there, it was clear people were continually coming and going – i.e nippin over to Greggs etc. or heading off for lunch in town.

      I do think, that as others have pointed out, the BBC in Scotland needs shut down. They do not serve the people of Scotland, and never have. They lied to Scots during the referendum. They just cannot seem to represent Scottish affairs except by way of a London perspective.

    42. Sooz says:

      Hahaha – the BBC will always under-report our numbers. I wonder what they’d say about the brave fistful of unionists trying to look British and proud in a vast expanse of nothingness the day before. Nothing. They’ll not report it because it’s embarrassing. 🙂

    43. heedtracker says:

      https://instagram.com/bbcscotland/

      Lovely BBC vote NO Scotland instagram stuff, not a Saltire in any photo anywhere. Talk about a blanket ban on Scotland flags, although Aberdeen city council have the same ban or had. Only in the Scotland region.

    44. Dr Jim says:

      I’ve just seen the pictures of those knuckle dragging Union Flag waving morons being cordoned by the police

      This is as a direct result of Rangers Football Clubs inability to control this section of it’s support along with the Orange Order actively encouraging these racist nut jobs

      If they can’t or won’t control them and Police Scotland don’t start charging them with Breach of the Peace and making arrests this will lead to severe consequences for our country
      There are people out there who will take care of these folk and they are much better prepared and much more organised than this bunch, and there’s the problem

      Police Scotland will need to get a grip before it starts coz guess who’ll get the blame, but it’ll be too late by then somebody will have died and we might as well fire the starting gun for Cameron’s troops excuse to quell the unruly Nationalists

      This is England eh Rule Brittania, every country they touch
      it makes you vomit

    45. yesindyref2 says:

      Appalling edition of the Sunday Herald putting its grudge with Sheridan before all else. I won’t be buying one.

    46. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I posted this on the ‘why-we-wont-give-up’ page a number of minutes ago but, as it’s about today’s rally, I’ll paste it here.

      ———————————————–

      Hi Onwards (hours ago – I’m not long home from Glasgow.)

      ““Guy at 0:37 with the Eng-Ger-Land chants””

      We stayed to the very end so we could see Gerry Cinnamon. At some point, around the back of 6, Tommy Sheridan asked for a minute’s silence to show solidarity with the refugees heading for the EU. (We were still at the site of the Wings stall, at Sir Walter Scott’s feet.)

      As has been typed above, the police had a generally laid-back approach. I didn’t actually see any wandering about in our vicinity until later in the afternoon. Most were wandering around in pairs but there was an inspector (? – white band on the peak of his cap), who was wandering about on his own, blethering with the pairs – and being accosted by a Yesser who wanted a selfie with him.

      Just as the minute’s silence began, a couple of individuals came into the square from the south side. One of them was obviously (going by his accent) from another, more southern part, of the UK and shouted out “ENGERLUND! Britain’s better together!”

      Two pairs of our finest started walking towards them, from around 50 yards away, formed into a line of four, and ‘forced’ them back, from whence they had come. The more sober, non-shouty one, was by this time, walking backwards, dragging his ‘friend’ and shouting towards the four saviours of the silence, “We’re really sorry…”

      The police corralled them right back to the street, where the pair turned and headed across the road, in front of a double-decker.

      I thought, “Wouldn’t that be poetic justice.” but they, somehow, got across the road without incident.

      I did hear that there were no arrests within the square, the whole day, but britnats were stopped (as mentioned in previous posts here) before they could cause disruption.

    47. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      The date on that facebook page / video is last year, 2014.

    48. Dr Jim says:

      @yesindyref2

      Well what an absolute jump the gun Capital Numptie am I

      I saw the link and didn’t check, how thick can you be

      Big sorry’s all round and thank goodness at least it wasn’t tonight and thanks for putting me straight, Me and Mrs Doc have been ranting since we saw it

      What a flaming chump I am

    49. Sandy Henderson says:

      Re. the rally. E-mailed the ‘BBC/EBC’ to mention their non-mention of same on their ‘National’?? news. However, I acknowledged their mention of ‘Great Britain’ (to quote Mundell-um) leading in the Davis Cup. Using Scots as a crutch again.

    50. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      No worries.

      It was an emotional day, one which brought back last year. Perhaps the Sunday Herald over-reacted and spat its dummies. Perhaps I did in posting words to that effect there.

      I guess we need to think before reacting, a thalamic pause as it was described in the A.E. Van Gogt Null-A trilogy, loosely based around General Semantics, the Language of Thought and Action.

      Ah well, off to bed. I need to do the work today I put off yesterday to go to Freedom Square, Hope Over Fear. I’ll repeat that: Hope Over Fear. Whatever the politics!

    51. yesindyref2 says:

      The Sunday Herald does compensate a bit, with its article by Tom Gordon, which could have been a headliner.

      “THE SNP’s Westminster leader yesterday took up the challenge set by David Cameron at Prime Minister’s Questions and sent him a list of problems with Tory devolution plans.

      Angus Robertson wrote to Cameron with details of where the Scotland Bill falls short of delivering on the cross-party Smith Commission on more powers.

      Robertson also presented Cameron with a recent report from Holyrood’s devolution committee, which includes Tory MSP Alex Johnstone, which made similar complaints.”

      If they have any sense, with their dire Hope over Fear article, they’ll make that one the top of their digital edition. and keep it there

    52. Sandy Henderson says:

      Just viewed the 18.30 unionist
      rally on facebook. Doubt if they have an O-Level between them. Amazing how much alcohol they can consume between the end of a football match & 18.30.

    53. john king says:

      I woke up at stupid o clock with a start,
      realizing where I was thought about what had woken me,
      It was the thought of a new referendum where Cameron does not assent and we go it alone,
      what happens then?
      all Cameron has to do is encourage (which he absolutely would) no voters to boycott it,
      we end up with 80% yes and a Prime Minister daring us to declare independence, what then?

      The only way a new referendum could be seen to be legitimate in the eyes of the world would be for Nicola to stand on a manifesto which says vote SNP for a mandate to go for indyref 2 without an agreement from Westminster we’re screwed!

    54. Ken500 says:

      Who cares how many were there. Just that people are still campaigning and over 50% want another Ref and Independence. Over 50% and rising people are still campaigning and want another Referendum and Independence. The number are rising not falling.

      The MSM are despicable people always have been and always will be because of Westminster Unionists criminals. Westminster drones. Murderers,liars, crooks and thieves. Cheats who destroy the economy and disobey the Law. All in it together. They are fools. Without a free and balance Press there is no Democracy. Thatcher saw to that breaking the Ministerial Code and lying about it. Handing the balance of the Press over to the Right Wing criminal Murdoch, who should be in jail for bribing public officials. Who needs then press when there is people power.

      Thanks Glasgow, Edinburgh and all who turned out from the millions who couldn’t be there. Thanks to everyone campaigning everywhere including Rev Stu. Thanks a Million. Thanks
      Tommy. It was a tremendous Rally. May there be many more. Another reminder to Westminster about the lack of Democracy in the UK.

    55. Ken500 says:

      More despicable crap from the Sun Herald. They just can’t help themselves. The ignorant, arrogant ill researched ‘reporters’ (that a laugh) trouble causers are at it again, People have to go to the ‘foreign’ Press for balanced reporting. MSM in the UK are a disgrace along with their Westminster Unionists controllers. They are more to be pity. It was the corrupt, criminal Murdoch Press who tried to bring Tommy down and deny justice. Nae chance

      Most of the newspaper editors/reporters are criminals and should be in jail, along with their criminal collegues at Westminster. They feed off each other. They would do anything to sour any attainment in Scotland. They feed off each other and destroy themselves. The majority hold them in complete and utter contempt. They just make people more annoyed and angry. They are a blight on society.

    56. Bear1630 says:

      Assuming that one person occupies a square metre of space. By my reckoning there were around 7000 at the HOF rally in Glasgow yesterday

    57. Ken500 says:

      There are more voters in Scotland who voted for Independence in Scotland pro rata as a %, than voted for a Referendum in Catalonia.

      A majority did not vote for a Referendum in Cstalonia 2million out of 5.4 Million voters. (80% turnout?) Pop 7,5million. Another myth lost in translation.

      Political Parties from other countries should do some research before giving out unrequested advice. Instead of giving unwarranted factually incorrect advice.

      Comparing Independence movement in different places, without proper comparison, is not comparing like with like. A worthless comparison and occupation. Just annoying.

    58. Brodyquixote says:

      Best memory of yesterday – the crowd singing “All you need is love”. Still yes!

    59. Ken500 says:

      It is not the Spanish Gov stopping a Referedum in Catalonia. A majority in Cstalonia didn’t vote for it.

    60. Ken500 says:

      The second vote goes to Tommy for all you have done for the vulnerable in Scotland. Including fight the Poll tax and stopping warrant sales. A true hero. Thanks a million. Rock on Tommy. Don’t let the bastards get you down. The £5Million political show trial. A total waste of public money.

      If the Glasgow Police starting doing their job and arresting and charging the violent bully boys instead of wasting public money ‘charging’ and imprisoning the innocent, and lying about it. That would keep the peace.

    61. Big Jock says:

      Regards Rangers fans who are hardline Brits. The club openly encourage them. They feed off bigotry. Without bigotry there is no Rangers.

      While Rangers exist,bigotry exists. Hence the unfurling of Union flags at every game. No other club unfurls national flags. It’s a political statement the club make.

      The Asian guy that left. Described them as tribal bigots. So there we have it. Support the club and you support bigotry. It’s like trying to claim you only go to the Orange Lodge for cheap beer. If you claim you are only supporting the football. Every penny spent on them helps maintain them and by default complete knuckle dragging anti Scottish bigotry.

    62. nodrog says:

      According to today’s report in The Sunday Herald several media outlets were prevented entry into the official enclosure at the rally yesterday including The Sunday Herald. If that is true then whomsoever decided to do that made a big mistake and did our cause no good at all.

    63. davidb says:

      The only independent verification of the size of a crowd was of course denied us by the operator of the Webcam. There are always discrepancies between parties as to numbers. You will remember the vast crowds reported last year at Army Day in Stirling which were debunked on Craig Murray’s site.

      I wonder whether the Labour controlled council, the cam operator or the more secret echelons of the Unionist State stopped updating the webcam at 12:29. It reeks of “news management”.

      I believe the capacity of the square is estimated at something around 15000. That seems to be the limit placed at Hogmanay. So it is not difficult with access to the webcam images to reasonably estimate a crowd. Walter’s statue is bang in the centre.

      I would have said that at 12:29 the crowd was likelier to have been a little more than 1500, as the area occupied reached Walter. I would have estimated perhaps a 1/4 of the space was occupied ( perhaps more ). So 1500 is perhaps conservative.

    64. Brian Powell says:

      On the Herald and the Rally.

      Apparently what really happened is the press were invited to the stage area from 12-1pm to take what photos they wanted, then asked to clear that area.

      There was no restriction on where they could go as George Sq is public space.

      Herlad editor making up story.

    65. Ken500 says:

      The Rally is not stagnant. People come and go. Some for limited periods, some for longer. Any tally at any given time could be multiplied by 5 (hours) to give a more representational, accurate account, plus include the numbers in Edinburgh Rallies etc. The Millions of voters who support Independence can’t go for many reasons, logistics/financial/work obligations etc. but still support the Rallies. Hope over Fear.

    66. nodrog says:

      Like your picture of the Union Day gathering of the Invisible Silent Majority. Did not see any coverage of it in the MMS – but of course not – it was invisible!!!

    67. Fireproofjim says:

      Andy and Jamie Murray both support independence, at the risk of alienating a large number of their support and their sponsors. Few of us put so much on the line when we do the same.
      I agree with the previous post which said we will still be British as well as Scottish after a Yes vote.
      Norway, Sweden and Denmark are proud to call themselves Scandinavian, but are all completely independent.
      The Irish rugby players still play in the Lions and I expect there will be similar instances in the future., when players from these islands find themselves in the same team. (Ryder Cup, Walker Cup, Davis Cup, etc.)

    68. Ken500 says:

      Stop Press. Ignorant Reporter doesn’t understand Health & Safety rules. What if they fell or were electrocuted. What a story that would make. ‘News’ headlines all over the Press. Self obsessed Prima Donnas.

      Tommy Sheridan’s only ‘crime’ was taking votes from Labour/Unionists. The bully boys put the boot in.

    69. Glamaig says:

      The crowd capacity of George Square is 15000.
      https://trafficscotland.org/plannedevents/venue.aspx?id=500853

      Folk were spread around the square in different densities, obviously packed at the front then getting thinner around that. If everybody in the square and the saltire wearers in the cafes n streets etc around, was packed into 1/4 of it, it would been rammed. So minimum 3000.

      Even the 12:29? webcam shot pretty much shows that and it got busier later.

      So the BBC are talking out their arse, but we all know and expect that.

      I took a video of the Bikers for Yes from just inside Queen St station steps and the noise was deafening! The square behind looks packed, I showed that video to my son and then the BBC website article and he was shocked at the lying bastards!

    70. Fireproofjim says:

      I agree with nodrog @9.28.
      The reporter from the Sunday Herald or the National should have been given special access, showered with rose petals and free beer. Not turned away if they wanted to stay.
      You don’t treat your friends like that. We need all the support we can get from any part of the media, and that means only two at this time.
      As for those who say they are just tools of the capitalist system or some such nonsense, well let us use these tools to our advantage. Not cut off our nose to spite our face.

    71. Cal says:

      @Nodrog 9.28am

      Got to agree with you there. I’m not a massive fan of Richard Walker (too much Jeremy Corbyn sycophancy for my taste) but even I think they were out of line there.

      It says in the Sunday Herald article the event’s reps had told the reporter they were not doing them any favours! Putting an advert on the front page of the newspaper for weeks on end to publicise the event counts as doing them a favour in my book. What were they thinking?!?

      I’m not a great fan of Tommy Sheridan either but he worked his butt off to get a Yes vote last year and he is a rousing speaker. He has my respect for that. I wonder if he personally told the event reps to do this. I was at the event briefly yesterday and thought it was a great and peaceful demo with lots of people still very much enthused about the idea of independence.

      Meanwhile, the shaddow ministerial team charged with aboloshing the House of Lords has been announced. Here’s the full list:

      Lord Tunnicliff
      Lord Davis
      Lord Stevensen
      Lord Mendlesohn
      Baroness Smith
      Baroness Hyter
      Lord Kennedy
      Lord Beeham
      Lord Touhig
      Lord Falkener
      Lord Rosses
      Lord Watson (!)
      Lord Davidson
      Lord Grantchester
      Lord McAvoy
      Baroness Jones
      Lord Collins
      Baroness Morgan
      Lord Hunt
      Baroness Sherlock
      Lord Bach
      Lord McKenzie
      Lord Bassam
      Baroness Wheeler

      …all good socialists. I’m sure they’ll do a wonderful job.

    72. yesindyref2 says:

      @Fireproofjim
      One problem with that is that it was Paul Hutcheon who has had numerous articles in the Herald about Sheridan and the Hope over Fear rally, being uninsured etc. All fair enough, but all with the words “perjurer Tommy Sheridan”.

      The SH or the Herald could have sent any reporter or reporters to cover the Rally. They sent Hutcheon whose only interest would have been Sheridan, not the rally. He’s the investigations reporter. He does investigations.

      There was nothing to stop the Herald walking around the square, taking pictures from different angles, talking to the people there.

      They didn’t.

    73. ronnie anderson says:

      Thoozands an Thoozands of People at George Square yesterday & a Large contingent of them Vile of the Vilest Cybernats & they Vile Cybernat Lurkers.

      Same as BrianDTT I spoke with the Polis Inspector & Sargent, Not one arrest around the Square, normal Sat arrests outside the area of the Square.

      To the many Wingers from Far & Wide, to numerus to name ( did you,s know ah hud ah bad memory JLT & Archie (N/E)lol,we,re gonna hiv tae put up a sign in board fur Wingers ( noo there,s ah idea, aw they introductions).

      As is per usual Wingers got stuck in to help out, ( how many of you,s tried to lift that Donations Pail).It,ll take PeteTC a few days tae count the money.

      Kendomacaroonbar
      iScot Magazines £ 165.40 + 50cents ( thats the start of ma holiday fund fur Oct ha ha )the 50 cents that is.

      Oonyhow am aff tae try ma Spirtle curtesy of Mrs & Mr John King ( aye we ken who,s the boss) ah Irene.

      I hope everybody arrived home safely. See you,s at the next event Edinburgh 26th Arthur Graham Bell ( witherspoons) West George St 7/7.30pm.

      Apologies to those Wingers who We did,nt get a chance to chat to, hectics day, Thanks Again to You,s Wonderful Wingers.

    74. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      OK folks – Heres the link to photos from yesterday. I havent named the rogues in the album for sake of privacy. I am sure you all know who you are.

      https://flic.kr/s/aHskkKzTF8

    75. One_Scot says:

      One thing that the Scottish referendum did do is make everyone aware that journalists have a political opinion, and that they use their position to force their political views on ordinary members of the public.

      Given that 99.9% of these journalists are unionist, it is now easy to see why Scotland is so F’cked up.

    76. craig murray says:

      Walking round and from the stage I would say that the peak numbers in the square were around 5,000 most of the time it was 3 to 4,000 and people were constantly leaving and arriving. My best guess would e about 20,000 on the course of the day.

      Backstage was much more controlled and professional – first time I’ve needed a speaker’s pass around my neck to enter backstage area for example. It had to be because of all the hassle from Glasgow Council. Maybe there should have been a special press area to make them feel important, rather than having to mix with … people.

    77. galamcennalath says:

      Nice article in Bella. Covers the Unionist’s astonishing ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of their victory very well.

      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/09/20/one-year-on-how-to-lead-from-behind/

      “The reason the Unionists continue to repeat the “once in a generation” mantra is quite simple. They are no longer sure that they can win. Anger, presumption and entitlement is now replaced by fear; they are no longer certain that the Scottish people are committed to the Union…”

      I guess on the 19th last year they felt presumption and entitlement. Then, when it was obvious we weren’t going to return to their good old days, they became angry. Now, it is so obvious that fear is being added to their anger.

    78. gus1940 says:

      It would appear that Scotland On Sunday are unaware that a large rally took place in Glasgow yesterday – either that or decide for yourselves why they didn’t report it.

      Even The Sunday Mail has a pretty straight report accompanied by a gallery of photos.

      Re the dispute over numbers which arises every time such events take place and the ridiculously low figures released by the police – in future could it not be aranged to have somebody with a camera on the nearest high building or to fly a camera equiped drone over the event.

      It would then be possible to produce a pretty accurate count of the attendance with which the MSM could not argue..

    79. One_Scot says:

      Has anyone actually seen Jeremy Corbyn and Tony Blair in the same room, just saying like.

    80. Bob Mack says:

      O/t.
      Watching the Syrian refugees being herded onto buses on T.V. Shameful.

      To think that all of my life we wanted to tear down an “iron curtain ” across Europe, only to rebuild it to keep out people with real needs.

      Well done for the turn out yesterday to all.My daughter said there were thousands when she passed on her way through Glasgow. Keep the belief.

    81. Chic McGregor says:

      Looks about 100 heads across on that photo so roughly a thousand people for every ten deep.

      Didnae make it. Wife going to Kenya for a couple of weeks and a house to clear in Auchterarder. Just couldnae be done.

    82. Macart says:

      Unfortunate if this press mix up is true.

      On the media coverage in general? No surprises really. On the whole, the meeja are not and have not ever been friends of the independence movement. In short, people have no reason to trust the media and have been given good reason to feel apprehensive of their input to any political situation.

      As per usual these days, it was down to the public to supply images and vids shared online to tell the story of the event and allow viewers to make up their own minds. That is a truly sad indictment of our press and a telling example of their future as people gather and spread their own news. Many folks might ask themselves at some point, well just what are you good for?

    83. Iain More says:

      Was informed by a friend who still watches and reads the Brit Nat Press and Media that Special Branch shredded a file in relation to kiddy fiddling amongst the UKOK Establishment and had been ordered to do it by a UKOK Minister. Oh well that doesn’t surprise. UKOK the haven for kiddy fiddlers and cradle snatchers. Just something else to hit the Naw canutes with.

    84. Big Jock says:

      I am not British now and will not be after independence. Anyone who equates post independent Scotland Britishness with Scandinavian identity is deluded.

      Britishness is bound in imperialism,religious intolerance,suppression and that Fleg. The whole point of independence is to cast that tainted cloak and move on.

      Salmond was wrong regards that by the way. It was to cater for the soft Brits.

      Scandinavia describes a geographical area and nothing more. Scandinavia was never a nation state. You would be more accurate describing the former USSR countries as having a Soviet identity. But guess what
      what. None of them want that other than a few fundamentalists in the Ukraine. But them clinging to Russian identity is like Scots clinging to mother England. The USSR was the UK and Russia the big beast England in this analogy.

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      I would have to say that Paul Hutcheon is relatively blameless, he investigates everything and everyone, and that’s his job. He covered the pike BT exposures for instance. It wasn’t for him to decide the front cover, general coverage of the rally, or the articles and photos the Sunday Herald / Herald puts in its digital edition. From his twitter feed it seems he discovered the huffy SH article just this morning.

    86. Robert Kerr says:

      @gus1940

      There was a camera on a high building. The Webcam run by SLAB/GCC which mysteriously froze early on when it showed the square half full.

      This has already been pointed out by contributors to WoS.

      Perhaps a FOI request as to the malfunction is in order.

      The response shall give us a laugh but will be less than meaningless.

    87. yesindyref2 says:

      Perhaps the National can properly cover the rally on Monday, where its sister paper failed so miserably today. Maybe Wingers who were there can send them some photos …

    88. frogesque says:

      Regarding the ebc and msm. I was there and I know what I saw!

      Not only were 350 Bikers For Yes there but there were thousands cheering them on.

      There was also another march by Recovery Network past George Sq. Huge cheers and salute both from the marchers and Hope over Fear supporters that was a totally unexpected and spontaneous reaction.

      I could not have been more proud for Scotland yesterday!

    89. Fred says:

      A great day in the Skwerr, good to put faces to Winger names, left my iScot mags in the Horseshoe Bar but they were still sitting on a shelf when I shot back an hour later! 🙂

      Sunday Herald pathetic, no red carpet for the prima donna’s, who do they think they are?

    90. Dorothy Devine says:

      Frogesque , I loved the bikers but I think you have ever so slightly exaggerated the number! Possible?

      It was a lovely day and to see the flags fluttering in the breeze was heart filling.

    91. Karmanaut says:

      The BBC have now released a photo of the Union day celebrations.

      http://imgur.com/4LeLPK4

    92. Capella says:

      Good interview with Alex Salmond on RT’s “Going Underground” host Afshin Rattansi. 18 mins:

      http://www.rt.com/uk/315983-scottish-referendum-pressure-scaremongering/

    93. Stephen McKenzie says:

      Karmanaut 11:54

      Now call me an old cynic but that photographer looks as though he has been “photo shopped” in.

    94. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Very disappointed in the Sunday Herald.

      It could have quite properly made its point about the perceived press exclusion and its misgivings about Tommy (which are, of course, shared by many) but still reported the marvelous rally and some terrific contributions to it (Hardeep Singh Kohli’s being my favourite).

      Perhaps the National can do something positive.

      We are at a point where splits and divisions are an increased danger and any precious behaviour that exacerbates this has to be avoided.

      Tommy Sheridan is democratically perfectly entitled to have a “Sheridan front” as the Herald describes it.

      Tommy perjured himself in court. Perhaps the first or only person to do so. Ha ha ha. Remind me what is it Blair and Bush (and Tom Watson)voted to do to hundreds and thousands of innocent Iraqis.

      I should make it clear that the stuff that Tommy did in viciously harming acquaintances and colleagues, particularly the female ones and the destruction he visited in the SSP was and remains inexcusable and will remain a stain on him until he tries to make reparation. Is he big enough? No sign to date.

      But I know of other political figures as bad or worse than Tommy who don’t threaten the establishment and who are left undisturbed.

      But this is politics,a frequently hard, soiled and difficult process, not parlour games.

      The photo at the top which is from in front of the Scott statue shows considerably in excess of 1500 people – double that number at least. A count could be done.

      It was a fabulous rally – over eight hours.
      I’ve been about a bit
      Glasgow born
      Years in Hamilton
      More years in Africa
      Back to Hamilton
      A few years in Strathaven
      More years again in Cowal and Dunoon but if I am going anywhere again it is back to Glasgow. I am so proud of it.

      Mongrel city in a mongrel nation, Glasgow will lead Scotland to independence.

    95. shug says:

      Just saw a Sunday morning TV programme where they were talking about changing the national anthem from God save the Queen
      Anyone else for compiling a list of Westminster betrayals for the unionists
      Possibly an hour or so in the yes bar

    96. frogesque says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      20 September, 2015 at 11:53 am
      Frogesque , I loved the bikers but I think you have ever so slightly exaggerated the number! Possible?

      It was a lovely day and to see the flags fluttering in the breeze was heart filling.

      Estimate was something in the region of 200 bikes; counting pillion passengers, trikes and a motor bike + sidecar; 350 wouldn’t have been too far off.

      Whatever, like you I found it lovely and the noise echoing off the buildings was phenomenal when they started revving up.

      Just one of the many pics I took:

      Ted gets in on the act!
      http://www.frogesque.co.uk/P9190528.jpg

      Just some of the ‘Hardware’.
      http://www.frogesque.co.uk/P9190536.jpg

    97. gordoz says:

      Echo Dave McEwan Hills Thoughts

      Musings from yesterday’s rally in Glasgow and other things.

      Heartened to see so many turn out (young and old mix brilliant & vibrant). ProudScotbut’s don’t have anything similar to celebrate; UKIP nutters event a complete 7 person crowd disaster.

      Hardly ridiculed in any press.

      Understand FM’s stance on persuasion of No voters to realise SNP competence in Govt is key, particularly from within the most extreme ‘Austerity’ controls in decades and also we can’t conflate everyday No voters with rioting idiots (largely Rangers affiliation clowns), but the suppression of reporting that regrettable part of the referendum is a stain that won’t go away until it is cleared up just how one sided, embarrassing & repressive to Scotland the Establishment control of the media is.

      BBC Scotland viewing numbers & trust (like Labour North Region) must surely be in terminal decline.

      Strange position taken by the SH today over exclusion from the rally back stage area and digs at T Sheridan; (cuts both ways editor).

      Why does this form the basis of the report ?

      Herald reporting of T Sheridan court case was particularly cutting and no doubt why restrictions were in place.

      Paul Hutcheon’s style & narrative in all things suggest a real ‘hate for the world at large’ and no doubt the organisers thought ‘once bitten’ etc.

      But why not just say a more in depth report was not possible due to restrictions of the press etc ?

      Stick to the positive of the thousands in attendance if you are behind a cause, plenty of other papers capable of the brick batts.

      Also heard about the ‘locked in syndrome’ displayed by Johann Lamont this morning.

      It is clear there are workings fully functioning inside Labour North & control of their party (regarding free vote & opinion expression on Yes sympathies), but they just can’t say the words because of a sad restrictive inability to speak the bleeding obvious about a different Scotland being not only possible but desirable.

      If you get a chance listen back to it online ( BBC Scotland News iplayer), it is an eye opener.

      Glasgow is now the clearly YES Capital ! and Glasgow City Council know it.

    98. Brian Powell says:

      It’s remarkable how CCT freeze in George Sq, they all mysterious froze on the 19th Sept ’14, but RT camera fortunately was OK and recorded the scenes.

    99. David McDowell says:

      I think these hours-long rallies with singers, face painters etc, have lost any political impact they may have had, partly due to people coming and going throughout the day. It’s diffusing any symbolic power the rally might have.

      I’d like to see a one-hour rally starting and ending on time, with a “warm up” speaker followed by a headline speaker who makes a properly prepared speech with a central, inspiring message.

      A panoramic shot of the whole square during the main speech would demonstrate the true scale of political support and an alternative head-count with photographic proof to back it up.

      I look forward to being monstered for daring to suggest this “fun and frolics for all the family” approach fails to send a larger, symbolic message out to the wider world.

    100. green_pedant says:

      Sorry guys but this one isn’t the BBC’s fault, no press were allowed into the stage area and security stopped even Pro-Indy press in, neither the Sunday Herald not the BBC could take a picture from the stage as they weren’t allowed in. Comrade Tommy at his best again.

    101. Onwards says:

      Big Jock says:

      20 September, 2015 at 11:33 am


      Britishness is bound in imperialism,religious intolerance,suppression and that Fleg. The whole point of independence is to cast that tainted cloak and move on.

      Salmond was wrong regards that by the way. It was to cater for the soft Brits.
      ————-

      Of course it was, and it was entirely the right approach.
      Sturgeon is right too. It’s the No voters we have to convince.

      Those with a 100% Scottish identity are more likely to vote YES anyway.

      Like it or not, many have a part-British identity, and if they feel that is safe after independence, they are more likely to vote for it.

      I honestly do think we will have a far better Scotland AND a better Britain after independence. We will have less division, and a new relationship of equals where Scottish identity and democracy will always be secure.

      I’ll admit it, right now, the sight of all the union jack clad fans at the tennis for example, annoys me. But after independence it wouldn’t bother me at all.
      Food branded with a British label would simply be food from the British Isles – not a political statement. Same with the British Bake-off and all the rest – They would just be TV shows. Contestants from Scotland would still take part and be part of the ‘great British public’

      We need to convince people that independence would result in not just a better Scotland, but a better Britain.
      If you take away the unequal political union of the UK, then many people still want to feel be part of cultural Britain.

      So maybe we shouldn’t just wave YES Scotland flags and banners, but ‘YES Britain’, or ‘Better Britain’ ones.

      And it would piss off the hardcore BritNats who only see Britain connected with London rule, and who try to paint us as ‘separatists’

    102. Robert Peffers says:

      @cearc says: 19 September, 2015 at 11:42 pm:

      “In all fairness, the beeb do have an excellent sense of humour at times.”

      What I found to be most laughable was the BBC text report that read : –

      “The LibDems will make what they call an, “Unashamed land grab”, for Labour voters at their conference later.

      The party wants to frame itself as a, “credible”, opposition to the Tories, targeting Labour voters after Jeremy Corbyn’s election as Labour Leader.

      Leader Tim Farron will stress the party’s pro-business credentials, proposing a £2,500 allowance to those up a company.

      Those who create business should be, “celebrated and supported”, he said.

      So let’s translate that into non-politician English shall we?

      “unashamed Land Grab”, = desperate attempt to grasp a lifebuoy.

      “Credible opposition to the Tories”, = we miss our former lovers and feel lost without them.

      “Stress the party’s pro-business credentials”, = everyone knows we are Yellow Tories.

      “Those who create businesses should be, “celebrated and supported”, = see! that proves we are Yellow Tories.

      Now the conclusion is that the rejected Yellow Tories hope to get together with the rejected Red Tories as neither of them can form a credible political party without their respective real Tory or real Labour former partners who no longer need either set of false flag wavers.

    103. Iain More says:

      Oh and I am not British in any way. I getting sick fed up to the back teeth being told that I am. I am a modern Scot end of and my loyalties are to Scotland and not to a warmongering British State that is stuck in the Victorian Era and longs for the return of an Empah where the sun never sets.

      Oh and I heard we are on the last season of UKOK Abbey. Great reward for the canutes that voted Naw.

    104. HandandShrimp says:

      David

      I think you may have a point. There is a place for longer celebration events like yesterday and there is a separate one for shorter make a point ones.

      I think if we were in a position where another referendum is being mooted and Cameron or whoever were saying no then we would need a mass mobilisation on the streets rather lots of speeches and bouncy castles.

    105. Lollysmum says:

      Craig Murray-good point to make about security passes needed for the 1st time.To me it shows the organisers as trying to learn from previous experiences in putting on events & a realisation that they needed to be more professional. Hope over Fear was very clearly a cut above previous events-a huge number of speakers & acts to fit in but they did it well & it showed.

      I liked the fact that they managed to slot in Eddi Reader who was out shopping & decided to go over & volunteer to sing & that there were activities to entertain the youngsters-if the kids aren’t happy the parents don’t stay!

      Capella-thanks for the RT interview with Alex Salmond link. Good interview 🙂

    106. Ken500 says:

      Anyone who wishes to organise another different format Rally – feel free.

    107. Dr Jim says:

      Too much is being made of Tommy Sheridan in this just because it suits the media agenda
      These Rallies are about Scotland not one man and nobody should expect them to be professionally run affairs he’s not an events organiser or a booking agent

      Tommy Sheridan is a speaker of his own opinions as are we all
      that’s why there are other speakers
      Whether you like the Rallies or not isn’t the point, it’s the profile that counts and that one man is trying to do that in his way, others may have done this or that differently but does it really matter, it’s the effort that counts

      I personally am not a fan of the Rallies because they’re a bit amateurish but I’m there nevertheless to support the
      people of our country in one cause, and let’s face it everybody’s happy nobody gets hurt and most have a damn good time

      Where else can you put together an event like that where everybody is friendly and courteous to each other in their thousands with no police necessary

      That in itself is a damn fine achievement so whoever runs it I say more power to them

    108. Ken500 says:

      Less people will attend a one hour Rally. A non starter.

    109. Dorothy Devine says:

      Frogesque , great pictures – nothing better than the rev of many bikes and the smell of Castrol R !

      Though I like your counting skills I don’t want us to emulate the Labour Policy of multiplication!

    110. galamcennalath says:

      Red Tories plus yellow Tories become the orange Tories?

      Or, is that niche already spoken for?

    111. Ken500 says:

      Thanks for the Alex RT interview. Tried to get it unsuccessfully.

      Getting the book now. Looks interesting.

    112. heedtracker says:

      Another round of sneaky creepy UKOK stuff from Sir Gordon Brewer and Libby Carrell OBE

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34301969

      Johann Lamont backs Labour ‘free vote’ on independence
      By Gordon Brewer
      BBC vote NO Scotland News

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/20/scottish-labour-johann-lamont-free-vote-independence-former-leader

      Johann Lamont backs Labour ‘free vote’ on independence
      By Libby Carrell
      BBC vote SLab Scotland News

      See what I did there:D

      Presumably con artists like these are trying to trick SLab voters but personally I wouldn’t buy a used car off these guys, let alone their cunning bettertogether propaganda stunts.

      Yesterday rocked. We want more!

    113. David McDowell says:

      Ken500
      Yes, a clear statement of political intent. That would never do.

    114. Wullie B says:

      Kezia is stating the same about a free vote now as well, they are well and truly shiting themselves now, but Labour will hopefully be in the wilderness with the other tory parties in Scotland, I disagree with a few of the SNP policies but they are still the party for independence

    115. cearc says:

      Robert Peffers,

      Now Robert, it’s not my pace to suggest that you may have it wrong but “Those who create businesses should be, “celebrated and supported”, surely means.

      ‘Gie us y’money and we’ll get you a peerage, honest’.

      I reckon the big business donations stopped dead after the election,

    116. snode1965 says:

      Holy funck!!! Kezia has just been left a gibbering wreck by Brewer on Scottish Politics. She is a total car crash, still trying to punt the autonomous party in Scotland line.
      Kezia, like J.Lamont this morning, argues that Labours pitch is a one-nation UK wide policy in one breath then contradicts herself in the next….what a car crash Labour are.

    117. David McDowell says:

      Ken500
      And in the great tradition of Scottish open mindedness, let’s not even try it. Let’s keep doing the same things over and over expecting a different result. Brilliant.

    118. heedtracker says:

      Only in SLabour’s non land of their Scotland region. Imagine a failure politico blurting the below out at Canadians or the French, a Swede maybe, the Irish or shock horror, the English etc

      Lamentable reflects

      “Reflecting on the results of May’s general election, which saw a near wipeout of Labour in Scotland with only one MP remaining north of the border, she said: “We are now looking at a Britain where people are starting to define themselves in a different way.”

      “That is profoundly depressing for me, that everyone begins to define themselves [territorially], and if we want to do that in Scotland then we shouldn’t be surprised that people begin to do it in the rest of the UK.”

      If they can just stop the Holyrood SLab rot next year, they’ll say anything, SLab says vote YES, 12 months later, after wipe out in their Scotland region.

      If not for corrupt unionist nutcases running BBC Scotland, where would they be? What a relief to see the back of Slab.

    119. indigo says:

      Super photos Archie [not Erchie]

      As a pro indy celebration to contrast with last year’s scenes in George Sq on the 19th, yesterday’s rally was perfect. Just a happy, positive gathering of like minded folk including, at least one no voter I was aware of who has moved to yes over the past year.

      That statement of hope and positivity is the reason why I travelled for two hours to get there, why my mum spent three hours travelling.

      There would have been stories aplenty in that crowd had the Sunday Herald looked for them. The rally wasn’t about Tommy Sheridan, it was about the positivity of the Yes movement. Their response to press access issues at such a massive event that necessitated crowd management suggests to me that perhaps they were attending with an agenda in respect of the organisers. It’s disappointing that they reacted in the way they did.

      The drop in nature of the rally suits us and I suspect many others. If it was a protest event or demonstration then having a mass of people at a particular time is obviously very important, but this was a coming together and a celebration rather than protest. As an event to normalise public political conversation and give a platform to a diverse line up of voices it was a great success.

    120. JBS says:

      Hahahahaha ffs:

      https://twitter.com/RISE_Scotland/status/644851445020426240

      Joined-up thinking, there’s nothing to beat it.

    121. frogesque says:

      2015 at 2:42 pm
      Holy funck!!! Kezia has just been left a gibbering wreck by Brewer on Scottish Politics. She is a total car crash, still trying to punt the autonomous party in Scotland line.
      Kezia, like J.Lamont this morning, argues that Labours pitch is a one-nation UK wide policy in one breath then contradicts herself in the next….what a car crash Labour are.

      Not so much as a carp, more a mouse adrift in a very big sea. Totally out of her depth.

    122. HandandShrimp says:

      I see Murray brothers against the World in the Davis cup has gone well again 🙂

    123. Dorothy Devine says:

      Andy Murray has just taken Team GB through to the first Davis cup Final in 37 years!

      Brilliant stuff.

    124. Jack Murphy says:

      frogesque says at 3:04 pm:-
      “Not so much as a carp, more a mouse adrift in a very big sea. Totally out of her depth.”
      Scottish Labour’s Leader Kezia Dugdale BBC Scottish Politics car crash interview:-
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34307230

    125. Robert Peffers says:

      @Onwards says: 20 September, 2015 at 12:59 am:

      ” … After independence, people can still also be British in a cultural and geographical sense.”

      You still don’t get it Onwards. No one has a choice of whether they are British, or not British either, before or after independence for Scotland.

      The reason being that neither Britain nor The United Kingdom are a unified country. Britain is purely geographic. It is an archipelago of many islands. The United Kingdom is, as it’s title states, a Kingdom formed by the union of only two former independent kingdoms but the old English Kingdom was composed of three countries, (one of which has subsequently been partitioned politically but is still only one country).

      There is thus no such thing as a unified Britain other than as a group of islands. Not even, “Great Britain”, (the largest British island), is a unified country. It is only one part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. There thus cannot be a unified identity of British except in the sense of Geographic situation.

      ” … right now if someone says has a British identity, most people assume that goes hand in hand with supporting the UK union – especially as Britain doesn’t have a flag of its own, separate from the union jack.”

      Once again the you fail to get it right. Why do you refer to, “The UK union”? The title, “United Kingdom”, describes a united kingdom, and the following term, “Union”, is thus redundant. The term describes a kingdom that contains four countries. It is thus not a single unified country. As I’ve pointed out to you already the abuse of these terms has been historically part of the Westminster Establishment’s propaganda since long before there were newspapers and broadcasters.

      Were not the Southern Kings claiming they ruled Scotland when the Saltire first became Scotland’s national flag? Were not the English Kings, (both Edwards and both Henries)”, engaged in wars of Scottish independence?

      Did Not both James I and James II of England spend their entire reigns attempting to form a United Kingdom? The Westminster Establishment has always attempted to claim that all Britain was ruled by England and I’ll quote you a couple of prime examples of their propaganda.

      There was no legal, “Union of the Crowns”, in 1603 but even today history teaches that 1603 was, “The Union of the Crowns”. In 1688 the English had their, “Glorious Revolution”, and deposed their Monarchy but, as Scotland was still independent, James II remained King of Scots.

      As the Scots could nor rebel against the newly imported English monarchy of King Billy & Queen Mary why were the two kingdoms involved in bloody conflict from 1688 until almost 1745? Almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union. Yet taught history calls the Jacobite uprisings, “The Jacobite Rebellion”.

      ” … To get well over the 50% mark, the SNP may need to reclaim Britishness.”

      That, though, Onwards is the point I’ve hammered at for decades. We do not require to reclaim our Britishness for the simple reason that we northern Britons have been British since the Stone age Hunter Gatherers and Farmers on Northern Britain first took up residence. We do not actually know if there were previous inhabitants in Britain for all trace of them would have been lost during the several Ice Ages.

      We do know there were British Residents at such as the settlement of Skara Brae.

      http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/propertyresults/propertyoverview.htm?PropID=PL_244

      We have been Britons since then and as long as the British Islands remain we will always be Britons. We need reclaim nothing to prove it. What we need is for every Scot, of independent mind, to pull up the undereducated numpties who are too ignorant of the facts.

      Can you imagine David Cameron, perhaps the very worst offender, being pulled up every time he attempts to make a speech and uses the terms Britain, Great Britain, British, England and the United Kingdom wrongly? It would make him look the numptie he is and destroy his credibility.

      We need only insist upon our right to be British and Scottish and the undereducated numpties who attempt to brainwash we Britons will be seen for what the are.

    126. Iain says:

      Too many people just insulting the BBC. How can we challenge them (possibly legal action?) and bring their lies to a halt? For example, on a day like yesterday, could we get some reputable body to estimate and publish an independent estimate which demonstrates the truth. We are leaving too much space to the partisan Unionists and their servants, and then just descending afterwards to unproductive argument. Who is, or should be, in charge of media strategy? They need to go for action in rebuttal, not just words.

    127. Dr Ew says:

      So according to several btl comments here Richard Walker (editor of The National), Andy Murray, the Sunday Herald and several others are all suspect in their support of independence? Why not add Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, John Swinney, Patrick Harvie, Lesley Riddoch, RIC, Women for Independence, the SSP and indeed 90% of the entire Yes campaign who refused to share a platform with convicted and unrepentant perjurer Tommy Sheridan?

      Wings likes to append phrases like “proven liar” to various unionists and rightly so, but above and below the line there appears to be a blind spot, or at least a far more forgiving view, when it comes to Mr Sheridan. My own view is the man is a sociopathic egomaniac and that “Hope over Fear” is but the latest vehicle for his ruthlessly self-serving agenda. What do you think?

      Do you think perhaps there’s a reason the vast majority of Yes leaders want nothing to do with his sectarian, somewhat sinister machinations? And a reason the BBC – yes, the same BBC you wouldn’t trust to report the football results – love to have TS in front of their cameras billed as a “prominent Yes campaigner”?

      Do you think these two facts could be in any way related?

      Answers on a postcard, please.

    128. HandandShrimp says:

      I see Kezia was “astonished” Is that a compulsory state of mind for Labour leaders?

      She also said that 50% of children from the most deprived areas can’t read. That isn’t actually true. The term is read well by 11. That is read an age appropriate piece and be able to discern motive and underlying themes in the text.

      This is from the Save the Children piece Read On Get On

      Inequalities in reading ability in Scotland, compared internationally, show some recent improvement. A study of international reading showed a slight reduction in average reading scores amongst primary school pupils in Scotland between 2001 and 2006, compared to an improvement in average reading scores in many other countries.

      From 2006 to 2009 Scotland’s own performance remained steady. Since 2009, Scotland’s relative position compared to OECD countries and other parts of the UK has improved, with a greater number of countries performing significantly
      lower, and fewer countries performing similarly to Scotland.

      In addition, international evidence suggests that the extent of the relationship between deprivation and reading performance in Scotland reduced between 2009 and 2012 and
      sits around the OECD average. However, the likelihood of
      disadvantage affecting a pupil’s score was similar in Scotland to the OECD average.

      It is an interesting document with lot of good points about the importance of early year pre-school development too. In short no matter where you are in the world poverty, social disadvantage and parents with little interest in education themselves will result in poor achievement at school.

      The big difference between the Save the Children document and Kezia is that Save the Children are interested in education whereas Kezia is interested in saying SNPbad.

    129. Tinto Chiel says:

      ” In short no matter where you are in the world poverty, social disadvantage and parents with little interest in education themselves will result in poor achievement at school.” How true, HandandShrimp.

      I have a relative who teaches in a school in an area of multiple deprivation. The complex social problems there, mostly caused by poverty, are a huge hurdle to literacy. Staff have to run very fast simply to stand still in such circumstances and it can be heartbreaking to see the waste of human potential.

      It is Kezia’s party, which in Westminster abstains on further austerity measures, which is actually undermining education standards. Of course, the only reason she dragged education into the interview was because she got into a complete contradictory fankle on whether there should be a free vote for Labour in Indyref2.

      She got skewered with a sly smile by Brewer but probably thought she did rather well, such is her lack of awareness.

    130. iScot Magazine (Ken) says:

      Guys,

      We’ve just established that our iScot Mail Server is down, which probably explains the reason why we are not receiving replies to our request for full contact details for only those people who have ordered PRINTED MAGAZINES.

      We’ll keep you posted when the server comes back on-line.

      In the meantime, if you did order a print version of the mag, and you have already received the email from me with your order number on the subject line, can you please take the time to once more resend the message to my secondary contact email address:

      kenmcdonald1(at)btopenworld(dot)com

      I apologise for the inconvenience.

      Yours aye

      Ken

    131. indigo says:

      @Dr Ew

      Personally, I don’t have an opinion nor do I know much about Mr Sheridan, but I enjoy the rallies he organises and the interesting mix of speakers that are involved.

      I note that a number of those people you referred to as refusing to share a platform with him, have also made a point of distancing themselves from this website.

      So high profile Yes campaigners refusing to share a platform with anyone with baggage or considered in the slightest way controversial is not at all surprising to me, personally.

    132. heedtracker says:

      “She also said that 50% of children from the most deprived areas can’t read. That isn’t actually true. The term is read well by 11. That is read an age appropriate piece and be able to discern motive and underlying themes”

      To which Gordon Brewer then replies “we knew that already.” No wonder they sit there in their £300 million Pacific Quay glas box of grog and smirk at each other. Or why does Brewer back up red Tory girls like Kezia?

      No wonder Alex Salmond, explaining to one more far right torygraph bullshtter on Question Time last week, that its really dudes like Brewer and co that are the extremists, got such a huge round of applause from the live studio audience.

    133. heraldnomore says:

      Heard the tennis fans rocking away to Eddi Reader earlier. Too bad, thought I,h having heard her play it live yesterday…

    134. heedtracker says:

      To which Gordon Brewer then replies “we knew that already.” No wonder they sit there in their £300 million Pacific Quay glas box of grog and smirk at each other. Or why does Brewer back up red Tory girls like Kezia?

      That should be Pacifc Quay, their £300 million glass box of grot! ios 9 even more anoying than 8.

    135. Robert Peffers says:

      @john king says: 20 September, 2015 at 7:06 am:

      ” … The only way a new referendum could be seen to be legitimate in the eyes of the world would be for Nicola to stand on a manifesto which says vote SNP for a mandate to go for indyref 2 without an agreement from Westminster we’re screwed”

      No, John, we are not screwed. Fact is that no matter what the World at large thinks the International courts recognise the jurisdiction of the Scottish Legal system is sacrosanct. Here’s the evidence for you –

      The United States and the United Kingdom wanted the accused men tried in an American or English court but the Libyan dictator refused to extradite them. The USA and the UK then approached the United Nation’s Security Council to pressure Libya into release the two men.

      The Security Council first imposed sanctions upon Libya but Libya still refused to turn over then, in 1994, Libya agreed to a trial held in a neutral country with international judges. Both the USA and the UK refused this proposal.

      Then, in 1998, the USA and UK agreed to a trial in a neutral country but with Scottish judges instead of international judges. Libya accepted the new proposal in April 1999.

      The point is that a legal precedent has been established in Scottish, English, USA, United Nation’s Security Council and the International Law Courts that if the matter happens under Scottish Legal jurisdiction then the legal jurisdiction is the independent Scottish Legal system and the Scottish Legal system is mainly based upon the precept that the people of Scotland, (and thus neither the crown nor the government), are sovereign.

      In short they now have no option than to uphold the sovereign people of Scotland’s decision as to what governing body they delegate their sovereignty to. Remember that under English, (that includes Welsh and N. Irish), law the 1688, English, “Glorious Revolution”, made that kingdom’s royal sovereignty be delegated directly to the Parliament but the sovereign people of Scotland have several times reaffirmed their, “claim of right”, and have never been legally asked to give that legal sovereign right up. You may not be aware that precedent in law is perhaps the most important factor.

      Remember, John, that during the Carmichael hearing the opposing sides spent the entire hearing quoting precedent to the learned senior judges on the bench?

    136. galamcennalath says:

      Just reading around online news stories.

      Cameron has apparently claimed in a response to Angus Robertson that all the promises made to the people of Scotland have been delivered.

      One of these instances which begs the question, “who is he trying to kid?” Us, himself, the London bubble?

      Cameron must be aware polling has found only 9% of Scots agree with him.

      The indisputable fact that is, it will be us, the people of Scotland, who will decide if WM has delivered, just doesn’t seem to be in his mind.

      I find it really difficult to understand what goes on in that guy’s mind. Period.

    137. Fireproofjim says:

      Robert Peffers is (as usual) right.
      Those who say vehemently that the are not British, but Scottish, are confused.
      If you are a native of the British Isles you are, like it or not, British and that goes for Irish, Welsh, Scots and English.
      What I think the British deniers want to say is that they completely disasociate themselves with the English interpretation of British, which, for them, is another word for English. I agree with the deniers on that point.
      It is the same mindset which refers to the Royal Navy as the English navy, and so on.
      Anyway the derivation of Britain is from the Roman description of the inhabitants whom they called the “Pritanni”, or Painted People, because of their tattoos. The land was therefore called Pritannia (or Britannia).
      So we were British long, long before there were English or Scots.
      I don’t have a problem with being British. Just don’t call me English.

    138. heedtracker says:

      Rancid old The Graun getting a ticking off BTL with 579 likes too. It’s taken nary a week of JC crucified by our extremist creep show media but some are waking from their red and blue Toryboys rule the world slumber

      “Ed Vulliamy, your paper and the guardian have completely blown it, I along with thousands of others now refuse to buy your shitty rag.

      25 years I’ve read this paper – since I was a youngun. To put up with the spectacle of a supposedly “progressive” pair of newspapers attacking a man who had the guts to stand up against the terrible horrors of this disgusting government with principals that this paper claimed to support.

      How dare they wheel you out to write this slightly condescending apology for failing to successfully piss on something that you clueless hacks don’t understand.

      Your media is a zombie in the death throws, but really it died years ago.

      I will never pay for another newspaper – and I will come here on CIF and continue to link to articles containing facts that debunk your dreadful spin and you will allow it, supposedly in the name of free speech but really just because you are an organ of Capital, and as Marx once pointed out “the capitalist will sell us the rope to hang him with” so keep printing your garbage – because it gives us something to push back against and the more you print the more we’ll push.

      Reply Report? 10 out of 10. Must try harder though, progressive liberal Englandshire:D

    139. Dr Jim says:

      Sounds like I’m defending Tommy Sheridan here when I haven’t met the man and I only know what’s in the news
      But I don’t think he’s standing for election to anything
      I’ve never heard him say anything I would consider sectarian
      I don’t know whether I’d like him even if I did meet him

      But I do know some things, he’s never asked me for a vote or support for a party, he’s done a lot to garner support for Independence, He’s never tried to burn down a hotel full of people and then be selected for a shadow cabinet job after being made a Lord

      As far as I’m aware no children or animals have ever been harmed by him
      I got three points on my licence once, hang me

      And if he did stand for anything you have the choice not to vote for him, that’s allowed or is it

    140. Big Jock says:

      Fireproofing it is you that is wrong. The original British were the Britons. They settled in South West Scotland. They were overun by the Picts and eventually the Scots. The Scots came from Eire. The British Isles describes a geographical area not a race or nationality. Most of England was Anglo Saxon who came from middle Europe. The Welsh Scots and Irish are Celts. We share The British Isles but that is just a convenient name for the islands.

      Please do some research and come back. Modern day British nationality was invented post union. And there in lies the problem and why the term British cannot be used like Scandinavia. Because people like you don’t understand the difference.

    141. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Dr Ew at 3.42

      I think you miss the point that has been made by several commentators. I haven’t seen any posts praising Sheridan or trying to exonerate him from mistakes and serious misdemeanours and an apparent resistance to dealing with them.

      But there was a huge rally with several marvelous contributors on for eight hours in favour of independence in our biggest city yesterday and there is no reason I can think of to justify any Scottish newspaper, far less one supporting independence, thinking it useful or sensible to provide no report of it.

    142. Big Jock says:

      Also for the record people can feel any identity they wish. However the comment that I am British whether I like it or not. Sounds hell of a like fascism to me. I dont like it, and I don’t feel British.

      Anyone who tries to enforce an identity on another,has a form of insecurity about their own beliefs and identity.

    143. Onwards says:

      @Robert Peffers.

      You still don’t get it Onwards. No one has a choice of whether they are British, or not British either, before or after independence for Scotland.

      But that just isn’t true in a cultural sense – Identity is ALWAYS a choice.

      We may be Britons geographically, but in practicality some people will never see themselves as British. You can see examples of that on this very page.

      The reality is that many people think that the SNP are anti-British, when they are really just anti-union. Most people do see the UK as a political union.

      It’s todays reality and today’s perceptions we need to contend with. Most people don’t care about historic kingdoms and their eyes will just glaze over if you try to give them a history lesson.

      At the end of the day, do we really want an independent Scotland that alienates half the people who live here ?
      Many people need to feel that their British (cultural) identity is safe.

      What is the best way to deal with that?

    144. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain More says: 20 September, 2015 at 1:33 pm:

      ” … Oh and I am not British in any way.

      Pish!

      “… I getting sick fed up to the back teeth being told that I am.

      No one here told you that, Iain, but you cannot be Scottish without being British and you claim to be Scottish.

      “I am a modern Scot end of and my loyalties are to Scotland and not to a warmongering British State that is stuck in the Victorian Era and longs for the return of an Empah where the sun never sets.

      Mair Pish! There are five, (independent), British States.

      The non-UK Republic of Ireland, The non-UK Bailiwick of Jersey, The Non-UK Bailiwick of Guernsey, The Non-UK Isle of Man and the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland.

      Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland and England are all British countries that comprise a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland that is a state.

      Whether you like it or not your claim to be a Scot, modern or ancient, qualifies you as a Briton. There is no such state as Britain as Britain is an archipelago of many thousands of islands. Here’s a list of most of them : –

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_islands_of_the_British_Isles

      What Britain is NOT is The United Kingdom and what the Scots want independence from is the United Kingdom and that is mainly from England as many Welsh also want to leave the Union. Now will you please stop doing the Unionist’s propaganda for them?

    145. Robert Peffers says:

      @gordoz says: 20 September, 2015 at 12:50 pm:

      ” … Glasgow is now the clearly YES Capital ! and Glasgow City Council know it.”

      And any of that council who don’t know it may just find themselves with plenty of time on their hands to find it out after the next round of elections.

    146. Tinto Chiel says:

      Big Jock, “The Scots were from Eire.”

      Not necessarily, BJ. The author of the monograph below still sticks to his guns:

      http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/scotsirish.htm

      Otherwise, I agree with you, I think. British is properly a geographical term but it has been so poisoned by UKOKery that I could never describe myself as such.

      In whatever circumstances, I’m just a Scot.

    147. Gary45% says:

      One of the few things that makes you warm to Tommy Sheridan is.
      He went to jail for his social beliefs,(regarding the poll tax etc, other politicians hang your heads in shame)
      Yes I know he had his problems later on, but that pales into significance with what other Westminster politicians have gotten away with.

      7pm Still trying to get Duggers on the I-player from this morning. Not available yet. Grrrrrr

    148. snode1965 says:

      Big Jock. We have no evidence of tribal names pre- Roman era. The Romans named them Britannia (England), the troublesome north Caledonia (Scotland) and Hibernia (Ireland). Any records from these times are either Roman propaganda or from Latin writing priests.

    149. Big Jock says:

      Robert why not take a trip to Dublin and proclaim,the Irish are all British. Good luck getting out alive.

      You need to stop telling people what they are and what they are. I don’t feel any Britishness and British is not a nationality,nor an identity. It only exists as a state of mind. Scotland is the nation I live in, Britain is the state that rules it.

    150. Paula Rose says:

      I often have little chats with Ukists on twitter – pointing out that they have no exclusive use of the description “British” causes the steam to come out of their ears.

    151. Big Jock says:

      Tinto. I think that’s the point I was trying to make. There is nothing British that I want to carry with me post independence.

      Doesn’t help when your ancestors are from Eire in my case.

    152. Fireproofjim says:

      Big Jock
      Don’t be rude. Saying “people like me don’t understand the difference between British and Scottish”
      And then going on with a lot of half informed stuff about the original Britons being from South west Scotland.
      The Romans, a thousand years earlier than the Strathclyde Britons, called the inhabitants of all these islands “Brittani” or British. It is you who should do a little research.
      The terms Scottish and English came into use long after the Roman era.
      As far as I am concerned you can call yourself whatever you like. (I opt for Scottish), but no one is trying to force you to do anything, and calling someone fascist for pointing out historical facts is just childish.

    153. Big Jock says:

      I like Tommy. He might be a flawed individual. But by God he has passion and eloquence when speaking. He is the kind of guy needed to get people extremely motivated. Very clever individual with a wry sense of humour. Fuck the Sunday Herald!

    154. Big Jock says:

      Fireproofing. I think the term :” You are British whether you like it or not”. Is all I want to say in response to your denial.

    155. Macart says:

      @galamcennalath

      RE: Cameron

      He’s playing to the balconies as usual. I suppose in a way he could be said to have delivered exactly what he promised – nothing, or rather nothing worth having. It was the meeja and the clunking fist that led people to believe that a near federal solution/devo max/FFA was on the books.

      I’m sure Cameron would say – ‘I can’t help what people choose to believe’. ‘Course one thing he did promise was that ‘nothing was off the table in terms of devolution’, now on that he definitely did not deliver. What was it? Something like twenty amendments tabled during the Scotland bill debates and every single one, EVERY SINGLE ONE, was knocked back by the government/establishment party majority and that included FFA.

      Nowhere to hide for either the media or Cameron. The referendum was bought on a false promise. They know it. We know it and an increasing number of those who voted for it know too.

      You can’t govern on the back of a lie and not expect karma to come back and bite you on the arse eventually. The made people feel afraid and they made people feel ashamed. In my experience, people don’t like to be made to feel afraid or ashamed. Not at all. Cameron will regret that, just as Labour have.

      Tick tock.

    156. louis.b.argyll says:

      Lots o folks arguing with Mr Peffers re definition of British..

      …most of English we Anglo Saxons..NOT TRUE.
      The Anglo Saxons pulled off a coup, and became a self aware ruling class
      of a ‘ celtic’ England.

      The term Anglo Saxon is a MISNOMER. Sorry.

    157. Robert Peffers says:

      @Big Jock says: 20 September, 2015 at 6:03 pm:

      “Fireproofing it is you that is wrong. The original British were the Britons. They settled in South West Scotland. They were overun by the Picts and eventually the Scots. The Scots came from Eire.”

      Sorry Big Jock but it’s you who has it wrong. The old taught history is balderdash and was told as being wave after wave of invaders annihilating, or driving out their predecessors.

      Modern archaeology proves this picture is basically wrong. For more than 10,000 years people have been moving into, and out of, Britain, often in substantial numbers. However there has always been a genetic continuity of the population.

      Before the Romans, what became, “Britain”, was only a geographical area with no political meaning or cultural identity. Yes the British gene pool has changed but it did so far less and far more slowly than the old, ‘invasion’ theory believed. The idea of large-scale migrations has been largely discredited.

      Genetic continuity of a population does not stop great cultural changes and new identities. It is common to see population cultural change, including taking on completely new identities, with little or no biological change in a population.

      Even although millions of Britons since Roman times have thought of themselves as being, ‘British’, this totally false identity was only created in 1707 with the Union of only England, Wales and Scotland and that is the UK – not Britain.

      Before Roman times ‘Britain’ was a geographic area with no political meaning, and no single cultural identity. This was true until the 17th century, when James I of England and VI of Scotland tried, and failed, to form a pan-British monarchy.

      Throughout recorded history the main island has consisted of multiple cultural groups and identities. Many of these groupings looked overseas for their closest connections and did not connect well with fellow islanders, many of whom were much harder to reach than their neighbours in Ireland or even in continental Europe.

      It is thus daft to regard Britain in isolation and we must consider it, with Ireland, as part of the wider ‘Atlantic Archipelago’, and nearer to continental Europe and, like Scandinavia, as part of the North Sea world.

      This was shown when North Sea Oil saw the North Sea extensively surveyed and the discovery of what we now call, “Doggerland”, a fertile lower area than what was to become the British Isles. Then the North Sea rose and the Doggerland residents moved to the higher lands of Britain.

      Here’s another wee fact – recent archaeological digs on Scottish Sea Stacks and islands revealed that the artefacts found predated those dug up on mainland Ireland. This indicates that, at best, the Scots were a tribe all around the Irish Sea and not immigrants from Ireland.

      Perhaps the migration was actually in the opposite direction but common sense dictates that as the sea and estuaries were the superhighways, while the on-land area was covered by dense Caledonia Forest.

      In fact, even today, there is less than 25 miles between Scotland and Ireland. Not only that but genetic testing shows that the white native Britons are more or less identical and directly linked to the ancient, Stone-Age, Britons. Our differences are thus obviously cultural rather than genetic.

    158. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers “The point is that a legal precedent has been established ”

      I was going to disagree with your posting, that “the International courts recognise the jurisdiction of the Scottish Legal system is sacrosanct”

      however, you make a very good argument.

    159. Dr Jim says:

      Man, Male, Masculine Homo Sapien,

      Scottish British Caledonian

      Be what you want to be,say whatever the hell you want to say
      As long as it hurts nobody else that seems OK to me

      I’m Back and I’m proud ( Just thought that one up )

    160. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Tinto. I think that’s the point I was trying to make. There is nothing British that I want to carry with me post independence.

      Doesn’t help when your ancestors are from Eire in my case.”

      Or half mine, BJ. And half of Glasgow/Lanarkshire/ Renfrewshire, probably.

      I’m afraid British is not a description I could ever subscribe to, Big Jock. Or you, I think.

      Pax vobiscum.

    161. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Patrician 7.11pm Gie us ah chance wid U some of us hivnae woken up fae yesterday & last nights events lol, Thanks for posting, Sorted.

    162. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting discussion about British, but I disagree. the names Britain and British Isles, whether the geograpohical entity or the political entity are names invented by – political entities, in their language. If we all spoke Germand and there was no English language, there would be no Great Britain, there might be a Grossbritannien, who knows, but with the language dead, so would be the name.

      Taking it to extremes, my house and garden are current part of Scotland which is currently part of Britain, both geographically and politically. But if I gain control of all the world’s nuclear arsenals, declare UDI, and call my house and Garden Eldorado, and the official language Esperanto, and decree that the rest of the world around my garden should henceforth be named “ugh”, then that is its name, both politically and geographically.

    163. ben madigan says:

      back on topic! Thought the rally yesterday was great and have put a couple of vids up here, including the bikers for Yes . https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/09/20/we-havent-gone-away-you-know/
      together with a couple of other snippets
      Off topic
      Think Corbyn’s election is a good thing for England. It probably won’thave much of an impact on the independence movement in Scotland. He’s coming too late for that.

    164. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      This is a really silly discussion.
      It is really of no importance what “British” used to mean or what are its origins. Like all vocabulary it means what it means now and in Scotland it now means someone who believes in Britain and not in an independent Scotland.
      I am therefore not British.

      In the meantime can we get back to the point.
      When are we going to invade Edinburgh?

    165. Booha says:

      I thought I’d read the comments to see how the “45” debate and discuss; group think comes to mind. Personally, I tried to be open minded so agree the BBC figures look low (but I’m not an expert in judging people at public events….something most people commenting appear to be) but what importance is there on this figure and the hatred for the BBC. I don’t despise or hate wingsofscotland for what it publishes even though it is not balanced. A lot of bitter people on here masking their own opinions for reality.

      A sad state of affairs.

    166. Big Jock says:

      Exactly Dave. We live in modern Scotland. Britishness means loyalty to London as far as I am concerned. My loyalty lies 100% with Scotland. Who cares what happened a thousand years ago. History is history.

    167. Fred says:

      As a census enumerator twenty years ago my patch was in Glasgow’s east end, only a handfull of the peeps described themselves as British.

    168. Tinto Chiel says:

      Dave McEwan Hill: I’m free on Tuesday 10.00 till 12.00.

      May need two hours notice to sharpen claymore in the thatch.

      And my Glengarry’s at the dry cleaner’s.

      Otherwise, I’m your man.

    169. Lochside says:

      The inhabitants of these islands spoke a language called Brythonic…which was an embryonic form of modern Welsh.. and the those in what is now called the island of Ireland spoke a similar related language that became modern gaelic.

      For evidence: look at place names such as Aberdeen, Aberdare etc. Thus Picts, Segovae and all the other tribes probably spoke variations on this language. These Britons were soon subjugated….except north of Hadrian’s Wall in what became known as Scotland.

      For the past thousand years the four constituent countries and nations of these islands have lived within more or less the current borders….unlike most European countries such as Germany, Italy etc.

      The ‘British’ identity was re-invented by James the V1 and I of ‘Great Britain’ in a vain attempt to erase his home country’s identity and unsolved ‘issues’. He further tried to subjugate Ulster by driving out the ‘troublesome’ Scottish Border clans and ‘settling’ them in resistant Northern Ireland..creating a bleeding divisive and permanent hatred towards ‘British’ identity that lasts to this day.

      So why do some people on here persist in harping on about being ‘British’? It is a redundant and tainted term..synonymous with English Inperialism.

      We don’t want it and it deserves to left with the English who are desperately trying to conflate it even more with the BBC’s increasingly ludicrous programming of our collective history.

      Remember England expects Scotland’s sacrifice.

    170. @ben madigan

      Thanks for your videos.

    171. Big Jock says:

      Hi Dave

      Are we going to storm the Castle,and kick out JK. I’m in.

    172. Iain More says:

      @Robert Peffers

      You can be Bwitish if you want to be, leave me out of it!

    173. Paula Rose says:

      Do you have room for an English rose?

    174. Margaret Brogan says:

      But why ban the Sunday Herald,the only newspaper to come out for Yes?

    175. yesindyref2 says:

      One of the reasons I went to HoF was to check for myself attendance figures, pictures, media coverage, so I could compare to what I could see for myself with my own eyes. It’s all very well mistrusting media, but who to trust, eh?

      What happened? Fair coverage in the Record with some great pictures, a gallery of them, and a hissy fit prima donna by the Sunday Herald, not only in its own rag, but all over the twitters or whatever you call it of Sheridan and HoF which I’ve been checking out. Paul Hutcheon and Neil McKay (??) hissing so much they didn’t even have the breath to spit their dummies.

      Well, what a turnup for the books.

      I see Sandra White (SNP MSP) posted some pictures she took on her twit thing, and I heard she was due to speak but I left at 4. Did she speak in the end?

      Great rally, who cares who organised it? It was done good. The politics were incidental.

    176. Grendel says:

      “Margaret Brogan says:
      21 September, 2015 at 12:40 am
      But why ban the Sunday Herald,the only newspaper to come out for Yes?”

      They didn’t. I had a peek at the backstage area and it was pretty small, not a great deal of room at all. The press were all invited onstage around lunchtime so they could get a crowd shot, then they had the run of the square to speak to people there.

      On the face of it it would appear that the Sunday Herald has taken a strop at being denied access to the free tea and biscuits and have thrown a hissy fit. However my recollection of their previous Hope over Fear coverage has been that it has been fairly negative:
      Playing down the crowd numbers: check
      Suggestions of backstage shenanigans: check
      Obligatory mention of Tommys “colourful” past: check

      What the Sunday Herald actually ran was a hatchet job, nothing less. The coverage contained no photos, as photos would have put paid to the lie that there were only 1500 attending and that they were denied access to “the event”. The Sun, I mean THE SUN for God’s sake, had better coverage, as did The Scotsman. Anyone who was there knows that at its busiest there was a few thousand there, yet the Herald choose to run with the BBC figure of 1500. You have to be desperate to quote the BBC as source material, as they probably get their figures from Chief Statistician Kezia Dugdale.

      The Sunday Herald and The National are living well at the moment on succulent lamb, and they won’t rock the boat too much. The SNP are positioning themselves for 2016 and all the niceties of Yes are being dispensed with, and the Sunday Herald and The National will be only too happy to assist. That’s disappointing as The National was borne from the Yes movement, not the SNP.

      Cabinet ministers have their pet journalists who they can rely on to print friendly messages, and that’s as worrying to me as having a unionist biased media lined up against us. Without a critical eye the SNP will be drawn into the bad practices that Labour were, and we need to be as critical of them as the opposition in order to keep them squeeky clean and on the straight and narrow. Over the next year alert readers would be advised to read between the lines, not just on them.

    177. galamcennalath says:

      British(ness). The two strains of argument here are not mutually exclusive. Neither is wrong.

      Robert Peffers is completely correct in his formal definition of the terms involved including British as a description of a person from the island of Britain.

      However, many words gain meaning in common usage which is quite different from their true meaning. A very common word misuse is where some people (many people) say ‘jealous’ when they actually mean ‘envious’. The word ‘jealous’ has achieving common and understood meaning far removed from its formal definition.

      ‘British’, I think has to be perceived in the same way. It has common and understood meaning beyond the root. And, the real issue is that those meanings can be derogatory or positive, depending on who uses them!

      If someone calls me British, then there is a very high chance that they do not mean, ‘resident of the island of Britain’. They have something quite different in mind.

      In some ways ‘American’ is similar. Tell a Canadian he is ‘American’ and they will probably correct you. You could come back and say, “but you are from the continent of America, therefore an American”. They might grudgingly agree. They are more likely to tell you nobody uses the word in that context.

    178. Fred says:

      The HS article by this Karin Goodwin person, plus editor backup, is petty minded, vindictive & fatuous drivel, the Scottish “Press” at its best. I thought when I chucked the Herald one year ago, having bought it for over thirty years, that I would no longer be paying for shite. I now find that Magnus Gardham appears to be back wearing tartan knickers, (probably the pair which I assumed Anabel passed on to Ruthie!)

      This is indeed a hatchet job, the “Greek Chorus” who joined in this “Tommy Sheridan baaaaaaaad” tirade, were either got hold of at very short notice indeed at the “Hell hath no fury” knitting bee, or the story was well prepared in advance. The tantrum over the Stage Johnnies being refused entry was just the excuse.

      Francess Curran demands to know where the money for the event came from, as if it was any of her business! and a nameless & shameless spokesperson from the Greens also joined in the character assasination, ably assisted of course by a pic of Tommy Sheridan looking his malevolent “Rank Badjin” best!

      There was nothing in that square which this throbbing organ thought worth reporting, nobody’s speech, nobody’s music. Time for MacBeth’s witches to give it a rest, we’ve had it up to here with this scab-picking, bitterness gets you nowhere. Time to get over yourselves!!!

    179. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I don’t despise or hate wingsofscotland for what it publishes even though it is not balanced”

      We’ve never claimed to be. We’re openly partisan. We’re for Yes.

    180. Grendel says:

      Totally agree Fred. There were a number of speakers who had really inspirational messages which were delivered with passion, totally ignored by the Herald.
      I see the national went with “over 2000” attending. Factually correct but low and vague? Any advances on 2001 attending anyone?

    181. pete the camera says:

      I think it was well attended in the course of the day we went through at least 1200 badges and we did not get a quarter of the crowd, an update for the badge donations is below, I have also posted it on the off topic thread

      Hi all a wee update on the badge donation money it was £1000 and I have already dropped the cheque for £500 off at the Taught by Muhammad food bank in Dundee will arrange with Ronnie A to get the cheque to Maryhill this thursday
      Thanks to all that donated hope you enjoy your badges



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