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A reliable witness

Posted on February 13, 2014 by

It would do our blood pressure no good at all to analyse in detail the extraordinary parade of dishonesty and naked bias that made up last night’s edition of Newsnight Scotland (RIP pending). Instead, we’ll just show you these two super-short clips of one of the show’s “expert” guest analysts, former Labour spin doctor John McTernan.

Here he is last night:

And here he is on the 9th of May 2011, a few days after the Holyrood election:

Enough said?

(To see that we’re not taking those clips in any way out of context, here’s the iPlayer link to last night’s show – it’s right at the end – and here’s the full 2011 segment.)

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193 to “A reliable witness”

  1. Susan says:

    He should ask for a refund on his crystal ball! 🙂

  2. Iain says:

    The sight of McTernan always makes me think that he must have a portrait of a beautiful, virtuous version of himself hidden in his attic. It should never be forgotten that the porridge faced one, freshly returned from his triumphs in Australian politics, tweeted that Scottish independence would resemble deep fried sick.

  3. Doug Daniel says:

    There will be NO pound if we vote for independence, according to McTernan. So it’s not just a case of Scotland not being allowed to use the pound – it will actually cease to exist if Scotland votes for independence.

    That puts a whole new shine on things. Unless he’s just saying the first thing that comes into his head, of course.

    His little snigger when Alex Bell was asked what his second preference currency option would be was very telling. What an arse.

  4. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

    No Mystic Meg, is he?

  5. Clootie says:

    It wouldn’t matter what spin these people did unless they have the support of a compliant bias media to add the weight and “credibility” of BBC reporting.

    The dreadful manipulation by a series of BBC reports last night should have removed any doubt about the trustworthiness of the BBC. Their reputation around the world is certainly not justified given this behaviour.


  6. sneddon says:

    Poor old John. Nothing hurts like one nation rejecting you and another nation laughing at you.

  7. Shelley Craig says:

    They really want to make up their minds … Roll on sept

  8. Caroline Corfield says:

    Headline in Independent on the counter at my local Costa coffee- the amount of cost to the British economy of the floods….

    See -: England’s Pound but Our Economy

    I understand that ‘The Environment’ is devolved.

    I don’t mean to make that sound in anyway anti-English, I’m merely mirroring what I feel is the attitude of the press to Sterling ownership. And I have the deepest sympathy for those caught up in the floods, a symptom of the malaise that has gripped the South of England since water was privatised and the chronic underfunding of the Environment agency itself.

  9. GrahamB says:

    And in between his two pronouncements he ‘masterminded’ Julia Gillar’s re-election campaign in Australia with pretty spectacular failure.

  10. Seasick Dave says:

    Are itinerant vagabonds now the voice of BT?

  11. Alba4Eva says:

    Remind me not to ask him to pick my lottery numbers.

  12. Edward says:

    Heard the ("Tractor" - Ed) Michael Moore on this morning GMS, how that creep can look any Scots person in the eye is beyond me. He insisted that Scotland cannot walk away from the debt if it doesn’t get the assets. He insisted that the Bank of England is a ‘UK only’ institute, making out that the UK will carry on in its present form and convenient ignored the fact that if the union ends so does the UK.
    The guy is living in lala land as is all the Labour ("Tractor" - Ed)s

  13. HandandShrimp says:

    I think it takes a particularly stunted soul to be a spin doctor. They used to make sure they stayed behind the scenes, with good reason it would seem.

    There seems to be a lot of noise and smoke but not much light at the moment. The tweet involving Nick Robinson and Stewart Hosie suggests that today might not be as cut and dried as the BBC in Scotland is suggesting.

    “Pound In Your Pocket Will Have To Change” screams the Metro. Well No, if we are not in a currency union and have our own currency, existing Scottish notes as a Scottish Pound as opposed to a BofE pound or an Egyptian pound or until recently the Cypriot pound will do just fine. In fact the pound in your pocket is exactly what will not change.

  14. JPFife says:

    To quote someone, “C*nt” he “will be c*nted too”

  15. Soda says:

    Clearly uses the same crystal ball as Captain Darling.

  16. Indy_Scot says:

    Watching Osbourne on Sky – obscene manipulation of facts.

  17. scottish_skier says:

    There seems to be a lot of noise and smoke but not much light at the moment.

    Way too much smoke. Like it was being released intentionally to hide movements and confuse ahead of something really big happening.

  18. Seasick Dave says:


    Remember not to ask him to pick your lottery numbers.

  19. Linda's Back says:

    Good article in Hootsman by Sir James Mirrlees on keeping the pound using the Currency Board option as in Hong Kong.

  20. gordoz says:

    I dont know how welcome that particular individual of the ‘OsBorg Collective’ will be in Scotland after a YES vote.

    ‘Assimilate or be destroyed’

    Tries way to hard to be a psuedo Englishman for me personally and dont think they would really want that kind either.

    Fine example of a ‘Scotchman’ Labour supporter propping up fat-cat ‘Westminster System’. ( Socialist ??)

  21. Gillie says:

    Huge embarrassment all round for the Coalition, Labour and the BBC.

    We were told there would be no currency union, now we are being told differently.

    It is as if they want us to believe it is a BIG NO to a currency union, but their weasel words highlight that the political reality of a YES vote would mean a rUK government would urgently seek a currency union.

    We have all learnt a big lesson here. The closer the unionists get to saying NO the more it means a YES.

    Finally, you cannot trust the BBC.

  22. caz-m says:



    I have noticed lately that some comments are taking about an hour to load/show on page. Also up/down arrows are missing from right side of page.

    One of the best features of Wings was it’s instant responses you had from other users, but, for now, that has gone.

    Anyone else experiencing similar problems.

  23. Les Wilson says:

    Unfortunately he is a typical Labour spin doctor who cannot be trusted,on, well anything he says really!

    Simon Pia is the same, but gets his MSM time nevertheless of his dubious claims and rabid anti Alex Salmond comments,who would trust this slime-ball.

    Truth is that Osborne is now aided by Balls and Alexander is a cynical attempt to thwart Scottish democracy, with blackmail and intimidation.To put Scots back in their box is their objective and they are the weapons of the British state.

    Henry McLeish says that these anti Scottish actions are treating us like fools, and it may backfire with more votes to YES. Well folks, I would like to agree with that sentiment.
    One thing for sure I am getting totally fed up with this British state, they show no respect for Scotland at all.Democracy? well that is for others, not us.

    They cannot be trusted on any level, whatever happens now, we most definitely need out of it.

  24. HandandShrimp says:

    Scotland cannot default on debt because it does not have any. The amount that Holyrood would agree as a share debt service costs in any agreement over asssets and liabilities is not fixed. If Westminster wanted us to take £140b we said £100b and the final figure was £120b we would not “default” on £20b of the original £140b figure. The use of the word default is just drivel.

    If the talks broke down and Westminster wanted to offer only liabilities and no assets and Scotland walked away with nothing, noassets or liabilities then the notion that the wider markets would view this as defaulting is arrant nonsense. That the Middle East or China or India looking to buy securities would demand a premium because talks on an equitable share of UK assets and liabilities broke down is patently laughable. They would not care because the Treasury has already said that all the current UK debt belongs to rUK. There is such a thing as market sentiment but that doesn’t mean the market is sentimental. It would be “Oh dear, how sad, never mind” with regards Westminster’s strop. A Scottish economy with a new currency and no debt would have to offer higher interest rates becuase it would have no credit history but the lack of any debt would make it an attractive proposition to lend to. There would only be an issue if in subsequent decades borrowing became excessive and exceeded current levels of UK debt. It would be up to a Scottish Government to manage its affairs carefully and sensibly.

    With this in mind I don’t think there would be a failure to agree a share of the debt. There might still not be a currency union but I do think that Scotland would come away from the table with a reasonable share of assets in lieu of the things we do forego. If there is a Yes vote reason will kick in if not in the minds of Balls and Osborne at least in the minds of the mandarins in Whitehall who will conduct the bulk of the negotiations.

  25. Roboscot says:

    I don’t watch Newsnight Scotland but I expect McTernan is never introduced as a former Labour spin doctor?

  26. Dick Gaughan says:

    Be fair, they need to keep trotting out these “experts” or we might fall into the trap of believing we could think for ourselves. And we know where THAT would lead.

    Worth remembering the old adage “Experts built the Titanic – amateurs built the Ark”

  27. roberto says:

    Time to work out how much debt Scotland would inherit after independence REV.This should include how much the BOE owes Scotland for QE.

  28. G H Graham says:

    Sterling is a currency traded on the open markets. Anyone can buy Sterling & anyone can sell it.

    You can even use it to pay for stuff, even when you’re abroad. Some countries will accept it as is, others require it be exchanged in a local currency.

    And if you can do all of this, how much harder must it be for a government?

    If we want to use the Pound, the US Dollar or any decent tradable currency, there isn’t a single rule, regulation or precedent that prevents us from doing so.

    Which bit of this explanation does McTernan and his Unionist chums not understand?

  29. steviecosmic says:

    If the last few days have demonstrated anything, it is the extraordinary and naked contempt that ‘establishment’ Scots have for their own people.

    How different this debate (debacle) would be if these unashamedly selfish careerists actually lent some support to their fellow Scots, even if it was just to casually remark that they respect the Scots’ inalienable right to vote for self-determination.

    I don’t blame the British State for this nonsense any longer. I blame that very small cabal of ("Tractor" - Ed)ous Scots that would sell their own grannies as long as it kept them in line for promotion somewhere in UK PLC. Disgust and disappointment, don’t even begin to scratch the surface of what I feel for these insufferable wretches.

  30. kendomacaroonbar says:

    O/T Osbourne on Sky News now…. He’s getting the boot in to Scotland now.

  31. gerry parker says:

    Is this a BBC/ UK Government/Labour party conspiracy against the Scottish Government?

  32. It was McTernan’s sinister laugh that caught my attention. The only interpretation of it was a man filled with hatred of a people exerting their rights.

    However …

    But it was as nothing to Osborne (speaking in Edinburgh now as I post these comments) pretending Scotland’s natural resources, prosperity, and monetary policy are all the result of voting for a Tory government in London.

    He also thinks we are insulated from the worst disasters that can afflict the UK. We are enjoying a good life in Scotland because England absorbs all the hits.

    Having told us we are a great country he now tells us we are too weak to run our own affairs and always will be.

    Democracy is the prerogative and possession of Westminster.

  33. Indy_Scot says:

    I could not recommend, WTF I thought it was meant to be no way hosay.

  34. joe kane says:

    Even the twitter portrait image he uses is a lie. It’s about 20 years out of date.

  35. M4rkyboy says:

    Listening to the Osborne speech.
    This so-called Union was a sham from the start.Scotland is not a constituent nation,the UK is a unitary state and we have absolutely no stake in any of it.Britain is England.

  36. bunter says:

    BBC not running Gideons full statement live which seems strange, just an abbreviated piece. Spose that will help feed us their special edited version later.

  37. Gillie says:

    It doesn’t matter how Osborne, Alexander, Balls or the BBC are now attempting to spin this story, a YES vote in the referendum means a rUK government would urgently seek a currency union.

    This is far as Westminster can go to a NO position without actually giving a categorical thumbs down to a currency union. The irony is the closer they edge to a NO position the more it means a YES.

  38. bunter says:

    From what I have seen, apart from putting the boot into the SNP with recounting of the BP chaps personal view, and Sainsburys scare, and a few Ive never heard of, he has merely said that he has published a paper which follows on from Carneys statement and asserts we would be leaving the pound if we vote YES. All very unclear so far.

  39. Gillie says:

    George Osborne, “I come to bury Scotland, not to praise it.”

  40. kal says:

    Watching Osborne (through gritted eyes). So far the questions from BBC and Sky have both been pretty tough and on the money.

  41. Kev says:

    Link to watch this hysterical drivel here:

    Quote of the day so far is “The chancellor says he is “committed” to Scotland, unlike the SNP”…

  42. kalmar says:

    Watching Osborne (through gritted eyes). So far the questions from BBC and Sky have both been pretty tough and on the money.

  43. MochaChoca says:

    Isn’t there a significant drawback of using Sterling without a currency union?

    If the Bank of England introduce further QE, resulting in devaluing the pound that may suit rUK, but in Scotland we will also have the devaluation but without the attendant upside of injecting more money into our economy.

    In contrast having our own currency pegged 1:1 with Sterling would allow us to proportionately match any BoE QE here.

    In fact to keep our currency pegged we may well end up with a situation where we are able to print/create more money here without devaluing just to keep up with the value of the balance of our exports.

    No risk of our currency hardening if pegged, but we gain/maintain the benefits of being a net exporter.

  44. Desimond says:

    I await the first question to Osborne at the Press Conference to be regards the Floods.

  45. Robert Kerr says:

    @Seasick Dave.

    “Swagmen” even!

  46. Triangular Ears says:

    See this ‘lack of credit history’ argument for an independent Scotland where talks on assets and liabilities have broken down?

    Well, I would personally lend to the Scottish state, and so would many, many others.

    However, I don’t see why an independent Scotland with such a strong economy should be borrowing at all, except for very short-term requirements perhaps.

    We should avoid this idea that a national debt is a normal thing. It isn’t, and 99% of countries having it doesn’t make it right either.

  47. Greannach says:

    I’m disappointed to hear there won’t be a referendum. I’d been looking forward to one.

  48. Murray McCallum says:

    I saw the Newsnicht programme last night.

    John McTernan sneering and chuckling as he sought to imply Scotland was just about incapable of running any currency was not surprising.

    Do we want people like him, Osborne, Darling, Cameron, Brown, Clegg, etc involved in running our country?

  49. Kev says:

    Full text from the Gidiot here:

    “Scotland is one of the most economically successful parts of the UK with growth per head the same as the smaller independent European states the Scottish government would like Scotland to join…but with far more stability and less volatility than them”

    Eh, what countries exactly George??

  50. heraldnomore says:

    Enough of Gideon; I’m off to watch the Scots curlers. No doubt the BBC will fill me in with what I missed.

  51. MochaChoca says:

    @Triangular Ears

    Recent report by National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR) indicates Scotland does actually run a surplus in real terms and that our revenues are underestimated.

    Of course the report isn’t freely available and has been sparsely reported.

  52. Kenny Campbell says:

    Make no mistake this is them rolling out Mons Meg…. SNP need to come back hard on this or undecideds will falter.

    We have treasury and chancellor making announcements and Labour cheerleaders clapping at the sidelines.

  53. Kenny Campbell says:

    John McTernan is washed up after the Aus debacle, he’ll hardly be running a bath never mind a country.

  54. M4rkyboy says:

    So,how do you start a central bank?
    Is it a case of forming a corporation and giving it a charter?The Govt issues bonds which the corporation buys and uses to create money?I am a little unsure.
    What happens to the Sterling backing our notes?Do we get it exchanged for gold from the BoE?

  55. HandandShrimp says:

    Trinagular ears

    Borrowing is a way to maintain liquidity and to smooth expenditure over a period of time. Anything up to 40% is considered normal easy to manage and will result in a high credit rating. The UKs 80%+ heading for 90%+ is not OK which is why we lost of our As in the AAA rating.

    There are different types of borrowing too, Government Gilts, other Governments, wider money markets etc, each with different interests and varying degrees of risk.

    However, I agree that Scotland would be well advised to ca canny especially if saddled with the 80% of GDP agreement many suggest would be an equitable share of servicing UK debt.

  56. Hewitt83 says:

    It doesn’t matter how he worded it, to the MSM and therefore the overwhelming majority of Undecideds and soft voters on either side – there will be no Currency Union.

    If a Yes vote was delivered I believe there still would be but the SNP/Yes can’t coast on the ‘scare tactics’ line for the next 7 months.

    They need to provide a Plan B option very soon.

  57. caz-m says:


    Thanks a lot for that reply regarding problems with loading pages etc…

    I have noticed lately that some comments are taking about an hour to load/show on page. Also up/down arrows are missing from right side of page.

    One of the best features of Wings was it’s instant responses you had from other users, but, for now, that has gone.

    Anyone else experiencing similar problems.

  58. annie says:

    Just watched Osborne’s lecture, if there was ever any doubt that it is “them and us” then it has just been confirmed.

  59. Alba4Eva says:

    Very quiet on here at the time of such a big moment. Is this site problems causing this?

    I got a bit of Osbourne’s speech as I left the house for work. Never heard anything like a ruling out of a currency union… just that there would have to be agreed rules, as per what Mark Carny (BofE) said last week.

    Was hoping for some more information on here, but seems site issues are preventing this.

  60. Wayne says:

    Let’s not be naive here, this has been far more strident than was expected. Osborne just took an armoured tank group through our currency plans. His language was such he can’t possibly ever back down from it. That’s fine, let’s move on. Now up to Salmond to response, and he needs to do so with gusto. He has 8 months to get people used to Plan B. Time to seize the open goal.

    What was astonishing was the way Osborne absolutely tore into an independent Scotland. Never have we been talked down as much. At least we know where we stand.

  61. Alba4Eva says:

    oops… just typed my last post and then all the comments appeared!

  62. Jim says:

    he does know “the thick of it” is satire not aspirational TV doesn’t he?

  63. chalks says:

    Would agree there needs to be a Plan B option.

    It would allow the markets to shit themselves.

  64. msean says:

    Tory toff says no,so we better surrender and do as we are told.

    Aye right.

  65. john king says:

    I watched Pia last night talking so much garbage about Scotland losing the pound that Ian McWhirter almost got his arse off the fence, but still managed to fudge the response enough to leave the answer unfinished,
    and interesting that as soon as a commentator made a facile remark about the difficulties Scotland would face, Robertson was quick to cut in and prevent McWhirter from rubbishing the claim being made, again an example of the No campaign being allowed the last word by the completely unbiased Scotland tonight programme (STV).

  66. HandandShrimp says:

    The Tories can only do the Country Squire telling the ingrate serfs that they have never had it so good so stop complaining and get back into the fields.

    That Labour cheer lead from the sides is their shame not ours. You can’t put a hairs breadth between Balls and Osborne anyway. It is public school Tory or public school Tory Lite.

  67. Papadocx says:

    Well we tried to be reasonable with these people but all they did was gang up,to threaten bully and blackmail us, to kick us into submission.

    A PARCEL O ROGUES! Some things never change!

    With friends like these we don’t need any enemies. Then again we never did. They want to shut us up and stop complaining as they rob and now humiliate us. They have never told us what we get if we say NO, I think we now know what’s planned, retribution and the final solution, the extinction of any pretence of a union of equals. The final solution.

  68. Desimond says:

    Surprised at so many people on WIngs crying out for a Plan B.

    Its not like Wings reader to wish any sudden reactions or call our for Scots Govt to dance to Unionists tunes.

    This is not a time to show a hand. Its a time to gently say “You’re talking pish George” and watch his empty threats collapse around him soon enough.

  69. msean says:

    All those Scots who talk down their own country and its aspirations really need to look at themselves,siding with Tories against their own electorate.When election times come around,we will remember them.

  70. Indy_Scot says:

    Just as I thought, this cast iron statement that Scotland cannot use the pound that was propagated all day yesterday by BBC Scotland, turned out to be a “cannot recommend” threat.

    BBC Scotland are no more than a propaganda outlet for the UK government and are a disgrace to the Scottish people who pay their wages.

  71. chalks says:

    Swinney needs to get his poll tax face/anger back when he is addressing the news today.

  72. chalks says:


    It comes from people not actually wanting a currency union, I don’t want anything to do with these guys.

  73. Kenny Campbell says:

    “What was astonishing was the way Osborne absolutely tore into an independent Scotland. Never have we been talked down as much. At least we know where we stand.”

    Exactly, issue is that it feeds the cringe. Despite all the bluster from YES side on here an twitter . This is a big moment, vote could be lost on this issue if the reply is not robust enough. This is best move NO have made to date.

  74. Soda says:

    Sitting here with my jaw hanging open…have you read some of the comments on the bbc? Never before have i read such bile, such contemptuous, anti Scottish hate filled bile. We will be back to “Salmond eats babies” pretty soon!

    First thing on the agenda come the 19th of Sept…. The dismantling of the BBC in Scotland!

  75. Hewitt83 says:

    @ Desimond

    We’ve made our minds up. We’re voting Yes.

    That’s great for us but do you think we can afford to peddle the “You’re talking pish” line for the next 7 months to the undecideds?

    I don’t.

  76. Murray McCallum says:

    Osborne and his New Labour chums in the No Campaign are purposely trying to goad the SG into coming out with an aggressive Plan B statement.

    I think it would be a mistake to get involved in aggressive negotiating through the MSM. We know the odds are totally stacked against us here.

    The SG needs to confirm that in still intends to use the pound after independence. It’s preference is to work with the rUK and not against it. However, the SG can continue to use the pound regardless and will pursue those options if forced to.

    They should simply say that a failure for the rUK to work towards mutual agreement will impact negotiations across a wide range of issues.

  77. M4rkyboy says:

    Plan B has to be our own currency,right?

  78. Stevie says:

    I haven’t seen Newsnight or the John McTernan (amoral Labourite scoundrel) but McTernan is made of dark matter and was one of Tony Blair’s / Gordon Brown’s most unsavoury spin doctors. He occasionally pops up his lizardly countenance(from his Australian lair) and spews and spits his venom. He really would be more at home having tea and tiffin with Rush Limbaugh (the US right-wing crazy) than he would be spending time with humans.

    He is a disgraceful entity.

  79. Kev says:

    So, continue a currency union with these financially-illiterate numpties. or start with our own currency and no debt?? Hmm…

  80. SuffolkQuine says:

    Sorry to be a bit thick on the subject of debt, but can someone explain to me why Scotland would be expected to pay for a sizeable amount of debt. Did the British government not create this debt in the first place. Can someone explain it in simple terms for me. 🙂

  81. HandandShrimp says:

    I would agree that there is no need to for a plan B to be outlined at this point, doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Just the hint from Nicola that, as there isn’t a certainty over Sterling, there isn’t a certainty over debt was enough to indicate that a plan B exists. The immediate anguished angry crys from the Unionists was remarkable both in speed and vehemence. They know perfectly well that it is an option. It isn’t defaulting because it isn’t Scotland’s debt.

  82. joe kane says:

    This sums up nicely the Better Together and wizard of oz campaign so far. I loved his evil cackle last night on Newsnight Scotland. It was a stroke of unintentional evil genius befitting the morals of Labour spin doctors –
    Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

  83. Triangular Ears says:

    Oh dear, somebody said the trigger phrase Stu is going to go ballistic!

    Where we’re at it, can we have a new rule that deletes comments where people say something like “the BBC is bias” instead of “the BBC is biased”?

    That really grinds my gears, almost as much as the current trend of saying “sikth” instead of “sixth” by almost all the Olympics commentators. It’s pure affectation. I’ve even heard some of them say “fith” instead of “fifth”. And then there’s “cawter” instead of “quarter”. I can’t help but shout the correct pronunciation back at the telly! 😀

  84. Desimond says:


    I said ‘NOW’, I didnt say forever.

    This is all rope-a-dope stuff. We have weathered every attempted negative blow so far with gloves-up ease; Now theyre throwing desperate wild haymakers in the hope of landing a lucky knock-out punch.

    We have plenty in reserve for the final rounds.

    As they said in Rocky 3

    “He’s gettin’ killed out there!”
    “No, no, no! He ain’t gettin’ killed; he’s gettin’ mad!”

  85. Westie7 says:

    13/02/14, 1028,
    Now getting a raw text version of the website with no updates since 0933, is it me?

  86. Kenny Campbell says:

    Sorry to be a bit thick on the subject of debt, but can someone explain to me why Scotland would be expected to pay for a sizeable amount of debt. Did the British government not create this debt in the first place. Can someone explain it in simple terms for me.


    Its purely goodwill, there is no legal requirement to do so as UK seems to be wanting to be seen as continuity state. Goodwill can be withdrawn.

  87. Papadocx says:

    This isn’t an attack on the Scottish government. This is an attack on the Scottish people by its supposed political elite and national broadcaster.


  88. Hewitt83 says:

    I would be interested to know when we should make a Plan B public then.

    If we leave it too late, it may look hashed, last minute and disorganised.

    FMQs will be interesting today….

  89. faolie says:

    My favourite bit was when Bell (who was very good I thought) asserted that all this was outside the Edinburgh Agreement. McTernan, in the most sneering way possible, dissed the Agreement as though it wasn’t worth the price of the Daily Mail.

    Bell’s rejoinder was classic: ..there you have the mark of the Unionists..having done a deal it’s now a minor issue that we should all ignore

    A little like the English kings of old ignoring treaties when it suited them. Given that today’s rulers seem to be out to wreck our economy it’s hard not to see this turning into a war (of words obviously). In a war people either fight (vote Yes and fuck you) or surrender (vote no, ok you win).

  90. Robert Kerr says:

    Mr Osbourne’s “cannot recommend” begs the question “to whom?”

    To Parliament?

    To BoE Mark Cairney?

    To the Unionist negotiators?

    Read Mark Cairney again. BoE will make whatever the politicians agree to work.

  91. handclapping says:

    Plan B
    Messrs Alexander, Balls and Osbourne having not definitely ruled out a currency union have indicated that it might be unlikely. If, and it is a big if, that is the case then we shall introduce the Thistle pegged initially at ten english pounds to one Thistle. This exchange is to allow for the inevitable depreciation of the english currency so that when the English are paying ten of their pounds for a loaf of bread it will only be one Thistle in Scotland and we can then cut the tie.

  92. SuffolkQuine says:

    @Kenny Campbell

    Thanks for that.
    It makes me so angry that Osborne and co., and the media, spin it as Scotland wanting to run away from it’s share of the debt.

  93. Kenny Campbell says:


    shoulder to shoulder with the Tories….

  94. Desimond says:


    I believe the Scottish Government will disclose any Plan B if and when the time is right. They have played everything perfectly so far and there is no indicator that any apparent extreme action from Unionists now should make them change their strategy.

    For the next week or so, every time the Media demand a Plan B, watch the Scottish Government rep politely say “If you look at what the Chancellor and the Treasury Review actually said…you will see its not what you claim”.

  95. Last nights newsnight Scotland? Words fail me. I have only ever heard such tripe on the BBC. The best recent television for me the best interview has been that with John Kelly formerly of the Irish Central Bank. He calmly outlined the alternatives, the advantages and problems. Unless I misunderstood he said it was all possible. We simply needed to decide. End of story.

  96. Stevie says:

    It would good if the BritNats said to the Scottish electorate that they won’t enter a currency union. A direct insult to every single person in Scotland would be just the ticket to help YES win. We can use the £ without their permission if we wish and, or peg a Scottish pound (which is currently pegged to the £ anyway) to sterling: win-win

  97. msean says:

    Maybe we should use the thingy on those comments,for future example.

  98. Gillie says:

    The unionists ‘can’t recommend’ a currency union ‘on the basis of this analysis’.

    So what if there was a different analysis ?

    Lets recognise this whole staged event for what it is – it is a crude attempt to bully and scare Scots into voting NO.

  99. Kendomacaroonbar says:


    Plan B = see Plan A. We are continuing with the pound.

    What next, we will not be able to drive on the left, we cannot use 3 pin plugs, we cannot use English airspace ? English vill be verbotten ?

    If you are readily going to accept everything that you hear out of the mouth of an English politician when there is absolutely no precedent to back it up, then I suggest you read up on the facts a bit more.

  100. G H Graham says:

    The British government is gambling that the announcement on the currency union today will suffice to convince Scottish business & voters to retain the status quo.

    Because what they are predicting is that independence will cause extra costs to businesses in Scotland & England & another currency plan will have to be developed. And since Scotland will be a new country, all your borrowing will be more expensive and interest rates will rise. Your mortgage will cost more & the cost of living will be higher.

    If the threat works, then Osborne will be the British hero. If the threat fails, the British have no real alternative because the consequences of separate currencies will be very, very damaging to the British economy just as much to the Scottish economy.

  101. Robert Kerr says:

    @G H Graham

    You are correct.

    They are going for broke. Must get a NO vote or the ba’ is on the slates

  102. Hewitt83 says:


    That’s not what I’m saying at all. I don’t trust of believe a word of what Gideon had to say.

    It hasn’t dented my resolve, if anything the opposite.

    What I’m worried about are the DKs and I think it is a reasonable concern to have.

  103. Roll_On_2014 says:

    Sorry Rev but OT

    A report from Academics at the universities of Durham, Liverpool, West of Scotland, Glasgow and Edinburgh compiled the study which was published in the International Journal of Health Services.

    Legacy of Margaret Thatcher’s reign is thousands of ‘unjust’ deaths of Britons, says study

    Were does this leave Ed Moribund on his statement from the day before:

    ‘I’ll govern like Tory leader Margaret Thatcher,’ says Ed ‘Red’ Miliband.

    By the way McTernan is a ‘Prize Pillock’.

  104. Murray McCallum says:

    The predominant wind direction for the British Isles is from the southwest.

    Unionists are arguing that air passing from England to Scotland will be stopped and any Scot found breathing it in will be subjected to a sound telling off by Danny Alexander.

    David Cameron is stopping the tide and rainfall and George Osborne is stopping international currency markets. The gloves are off and the straight jackets are being fitted.

  105. GrahamB says:

    I’ve been having these same problems (on iPad) and often when I try to refresh the page goes blank for about 20 to 30 minutes, suspect it is a consequence of the protection against DOS assaults.

    G H Graham:
    I’ve used sterling in Poland and Switzerland, euros in Hungary, Czech Rep and Switzerland and before the euro was introduced mountain huts in Austria would take payment in schillings, marks or lire. Exchange rates kick in but that happens anyway if you get holiday money from your bank or at an ATM in ‘native’ currency. It’s an old established system that these disingenuous politicians must have encountered before and probably fiddled exchange rates to their benefit when filling out their expenses.

    Re. Pia:
    My partner was asking last night who he was and I mentioned that a previous time I had seen him on Newsnight I was sure he was drunk, “you mean he’s not now” she said!

  106. scottish_skier says:

    This is best move NO have made to date.

    Nope, it has handed independence to Scotland on a plate, just as some have argued the Tories are angling for.

  107. R Whittington says:

    “The pound is a millstone round Scotlands neck” – Alex Salmond, November 1999. A truer statement today than it was then.

  108. BIll McLean says:

    I’m no feart – my glass is often half empty but i’m no feart and I will not allow these bullies to deflect me from my belief in a free and people friendly Scotland! Why am I having to sign in every time?

  109. scottish_skier says:

    Nervous about indy?

    NO DEBT.

    That’s all you need to know.

  110. liz says:

    There is a lot of anger about, with good reason.

    What I think is happening here is a total muddying of the waters with so much spin that they hope folk won’t know which is the right way up.

    This will affect the folk who are afraid of change or who think change is unneccessary because ‘I’m all right Jack’ but I think it will also persuade a good number to realise’do we want to be associated with these people who hold us in such contempt’

    Lab, Scottish branch are beyond help, we know in our hearts what we would like to call them.

    We can only do our best but I think there is at least 40% of folk whose attitudes will change forever and it will be remembered that it is the No folk who are aggressive and abusive.
    The Yes folk have all been about building relationships.

  111. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    We can calm down for a day or two then the spin wears off and the real significance of this nonsense comes to the surface.

    Macwhirter is in fine form in today’s Herald. Everybody should read his dissection of the unionist position.
    In the longer term ot will damage the unionists most.
    We are facing fools. They believe they have to contest and deny any sensible idea that might suggest that independence can happen.
    This particular ill considered response however suggests to everybody that they are terrified that independence is becoming likely and they are trying to stop it. So they undermine their own position and are seen to be threatening Scotland at the same time.
    The YES campaign however is in the high ground. We tried to do the best for Scotland AND England but such is the depth of contempt they have for us they harm themselves to harm us

    Had they any real political sense (or understanding of Scotland)they would politely have declined to comment on a hypothetical question.

    All YES really has to do at the moment is establish that UK can’t stop Scotland using Sterling which sinks most popular concern.

  112. Listening to bbc scotchslandshire and the ‘trficly gifted towel folder in charge of HM exchequer this morning, the gist seems to be that Scotland will not be ‘allowed’ to have any part of the future of Sterling, apart from paying off the UK national debt, as, sans Scotland, the only assetts ruk will have is a property bubble, which has already priced the English out of most of London, where, if the spivs that run the show are to be believed, one central borough of London is ‘worth’ more than all of Scotland Wales and Ireland combined.
    Reminds me of the time when part of Tokyo was ‘worth’ more than the entire state of California, according to the Japanese towel folders at any rate, followed shortly be the collapse of the Japenese economy, and years of stagflation, or reality, as created by letting useless spivs run the show, as the rest of the world termed it.
    And yet, the bbc & Co seem to believe that this is a blow delivered to the YES campaign by those frightfully clever chaps that happen to infest Westminster under the present buggins turn public schoolboy show?
    Perhaps they are trying to make us die laughing, else,they really are so stupid as to believe their own propaganda, something I would not have thought possible, until bbc scotchlandshire moved on to devote more time to the subject closest to their shrunken public school hearts, an item about ‘Scottish cricket’
    that’s just downright peculiar

  113. liz says:

    As for people getting upset about the suggestion that Scotland might walk away from it’s share of the debt – I say don’t worry.

    People were quite happy to say ‘well done’ to Iceland and jailing the bankers.
    So a lot will also say ‘well done Scotland for not giving into bullying’

    And also with Independence we will have control of the media and we could present a good case for the decision made.

  114. Desimond says:

    The final nail in any currency union concerns :

    It is understood former Chancellor Alistair Darling, who is leading the Better Together campaign to keep the Union, was instrumental in getting the three Westminster parties to agree a joint currency position

  115. Gillie says:

    No matter how the unionists and the BBC try to spin this story if Scotland delivers a YES vote in the referendum we can be sure there will be a different analysis and a different recommendation to accept a currency union.

    As someone pointed out “we are dealing with (unionist) fools”.

  116. heedtracker says:

    If this all works, Tory boys have given up any hope of Scotland voting any Tory to Westminster for a long time or a LibDem probably. It maybe explains why the whole of Labour in Scotland have stayed off BBC propaganda shows.

  117. G H Graham says:

    So I run a huge pension fund which buys sovereign debt (Gilts).

    Then a new country comes along, rich with energy resources & world class produce & a high national GDP. Unemployment is a problem but no worse than many countries its own size. There’s no threat of civil war, invasion or indeed getting involved with invading another country.

    It needs to borrow a small amount relative to its GDP for say 10 years to get some infrastructure & institutions in place: small defence force, central bank, some embassies etc.

    I look at the income & expenses & conclude that the borrower can easily repay because it looks like a stable country & the government has been historically prudent. Best of all, the new country doesn’t have any existing public debt.

    Who wouldn’t lend to this country at a reasonable rate?

  118. faolie says:

    As noted yesterday, seems odd to roll out the tanks now when we’ve still 7 months to go. Better to frighten people with a month to go, no?

    Unless of course they’re gambling that the polls would have reversed by August and they’d be too late. Smacks of, cripes, better do something or we’re toast. Dave’s speech was ridiculed. Right George, go and smack these Scots round the chops and tell them how it’s going to be.

  119. Kenny Campbell says:

    “Nope, it has handed independence to Scotland on a plate, just as some have argued the Tories are angling for.”

    Sorry that’s wrong, its wishful thinking. This will could slow or stop the trend to YES, what is needed is good robust push back from SNP.

    This one won’t be gone in a week as its not like the EU question where in reality UK have no say. This carries more weight as they ‘could’. If SNP/YES say nothing it will look like weakness.

  120. R Whittington says:

    when do we get an SNP response?

  121. Paul says:

    SuffolkQuine because some of that borrowing was done by Westminster on our behalf allegedly they spent some of it up here.

  122. Alastair says:

    Hewitt83 – FMQs will be interesting today….

    No sign of FMQ’s in the BBC schedule for today either in its regular BBC2 slot or on Parliament channel. Anyone know if its not happening or if the decks are being kept clear for coverage of Gideons lies?

  123. G H Graham says:

    The strategy behind the timing of the currency announcement is as plain as the towels Osborne folded before becoming Chancellor.

    The British think it better to attempt to reverse the pro independence poll trend NOW, rather than continue to watch momentum build for independence & attempt to reverse it in August/September.

    It really is as simple as that.

  124. Desimond says:

    No FMQs for 2 weeks I believe.

    Is it just me or is there a big influx of new posters over the last 24 hours or so putting up posts that read almost borderline Unionist? Coincidence?

  125. scottish_skier says:

    This will could slow or stop the trend to YES, what is needed is good robust push back from SNP.

    No it won’t. If your family is under attack how do you respond? What about your friends? What about your country?

    Scotland massively mistrusts Westminster but trusts the Scottish parliament. Why? Because it’s theirs and Scotland is Scottish.

    And don’t worry, you’ll get your Scottish Government response just when its needed.

    They are fighting for everyone in Scotland now because even if you vote No, you need to live with the consequences of a Yes.

    Only the rabid Brits (~6%) like Darling will be smiling at this. Westminster is saying it will shit on you even if you vote for the union.

  126. heedtracker says:

    Imagine a Scotland that’s NOT owned and ruled by mega rich elitist bullies and their ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s. Scots ("Quizmaster" - Ed) of the year award goes to Danny Alexander?

  127. Tony Little says:

    So the definite NO morphed into

    I could not as Chancellor recommend that we could share the pound with an independent Scotland.

    So, is that a NO or not? I could not as a parent recommend that my kids jump out of a moving train, but in some circumstances that might be the sensible thing to do. (OK maybe not the best analogy)

    But we are no closer to a definite NO, but we have been expose to the venom that permeates the NO side. Most of that speech was about doing Scotland down. And what should happen if Scots DO say NO? Will people forget? Will the three amigos suddenly find that they DO think well of Scotland and the Scots after all? And will anyone believe them?

    After the Jim Hood’s “I’ll vote NO even if Independence was better for Scotland” outburst, how can ANY Labour voter support these people?

    I may be talking pish here, because I am gobsmacked at this exposure of the raw underbelly of the NO side’s thinking.

    I await Rev’s analysis with interest.

  128. scottish_skier says:

    putting up posts that read almost borderline Unionist

    Always a good sign for Yes on here.

  129. Gavin C Barrie says:

    Why am I always out of step? I don’t want a currency union with England.The Establishment are not to be trusted.

    “Disregarding our agreement for financial cooperation you allege?, Pah, it was only words”.

  130. Hewitt83 says:

    I hope that’s not aimed at me Desimond!!

    We can’t tow the party line all the time. If we just ignore everything the Unionists come away with and say things like “people will see through this” and “they’re lying/bullying” etc then we will lose this referendum as it won’t be enough to convince those on the fence.

  131. saporian says:

    I think it is time to crowdfund the next opinion poll to include questions on the currency. In fact I think it would be even better if we could crowdfund a poll every month up until September. I for one are willing to contribute to as many polls as possible.

  132. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    Perhaps the main issue regarding debt is the share of joint assets. There was a very interesting article written by Business for Scotland recently claiming that the UK’s joint assets are valued at circa £1.3 trillion.

    Therefore Scotland’s share (per population) would exceed £100 billion.

  133. Roll_On_2014 says:

    Stu it appears that Guidions speech on the Currency Union is up on the Westmidden web-site Here.

  134. Desimond says:

    Line of the Week goes to Mr G Osborne, 11 Downing St, London:

    The Chancellor says he is “committed” to Scotland, unlike the SNP.

  135. Kenny Campbell says:

    Therefore Scotland’s share (per population) would exceed £100 billion.

    Yes but debt share is higher than asset share. If they are continuity state then we only get assets based in Scotland.

  136. Brotyboy says:

    @Triangular Ears 10.28

    I can assure you that dahwn in Lahndon, sikth is a very common form of pronouncing sixth. My ex uses it all the time. Even when she means fifth.

  137. R Whittington says:

    Dont confuse posts that suggest Salmonds tactics may not be 100% infallible with borderline unionism.

  138. Edward says:

    Alastair – Parliament is in recess, so no FMQ’s
    which explains the frenetic activity of the unionists

  139. Desimond says:

    Im sure if you read back, you too will see a few posts that read rather dubiously.

    I dont think any Dont Knows will be turning No today or in next week or month. There’s over 7 months to go, plenty of time hence my feeling no need to rush to counter this nonsense.

    Thats just counter-arguments, The YES Campaign haven’t even hinted at highlighting the bad results of Unionism yet…then the Dont Knows might really help make up their mind.

  140. Kenny Campbell says:

    No it won’t. If your family is under attack how do you respond? What about your friends? What about your country?

    Not everyone will see it that way. They will look at SNP/YES and say are you taking us down a dangerous path? NO campaign has been all about doubt/uncertainty, this statement creates doubt and uncertainty.

    It can of course be reversed. If it isn’t then it will grow.

  141. gerry parker says:

    Well, just back from delivering another 100 Yes papers. Popped into the bookies at Whifflet with one and stuck a tenner on Scotland voting Yes.

  142. Desimond says:

    Just reading the BBC coverage of Gideons speech and mouth fell open at this point:

    09:49: Prof John Curtice, of Strathclyde University, says many voters will welcome the clarity provided and asks the chancellor if there will be similar clarity on issues such as the BBC or membership of the EU?

    WTF is he doing there?

  143. msean says:

    Set out plans for our currency now,westminster now has no fear weapons left now.Stand up Scotland.

  144. Famous15 says:

    Do not rise to the bait. Only Unionists consider Plan B. The morning after pill will ensure reality sets in and the reasonableness of the White Paper will come to pass.
    I did not come up the Clyde in a barra!

  145. AngelaFitzgibbon says:


    Scotland has been more than paying her way for decades. They have a cheek, putting it mildly.

  146. msean says:

    You canny dae it re the pound,and er,we are not giving clarity on eu,i guess that means the eu question was answered in Scotlands’ favour then.Good job money is no object, because they will need it for their balance of payments lol.

  147. Tony Little says:

    I have started to read the Whitehall analysis papers, and stopped at the summary in disbelief.

    “The economy of an independent Scottish state would be more exposed to risks from the energy and finance sectors, which are volatile or at risk of large destabilising shocks. The Scottish economy would no longer be part of the UK’s common fiscal policy which allows for risk-sharing, and pools exposure to risks and also would leave the UK’s full banking union. And over time, the Scottish economy would be likely to diverge from the continuing UK due to differences in economic policy and the emergence of a ‘border effect’.”

    So, just like the UK and/or rUK then? I think this will be a long frustrating read!

  148. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Gideon : I’m insisting your name is being taken off our joint mortgage but I expect you to keep up your share of the payments.

    AS : In your alternative reality, If we have no joint title then we cannot be legally responsible for the debt since you insist on retaining 100% the asset :

    Team Gideon : Look everybody the Scotch are welching on their very dare they !

    Job Done.

  149. Macart says:


    Playing a blinder skier and couldn’t agree more.

    a. I think there’s something big on the horizon too.
    b. I also think they’ve just shot themselves in the foot big time.

    Strikes me, that their disconnect from the public and most especially the Scottish public has led them to seriously misjudge what the reaction to this tactic of theirs will be.

    I mean seriously, who responds well to STAY OR ELSE?

  150. Robert Louis says:

    Desimond @1114am

    You hit the nail on the head. I have watched with amusement. They clearly do think they are too too clever. You mean comments like this;

    ‘this is make or break for the white paper today’

    ‘If the SNP don’t respond soon, it’s game over for YES’

    ‘If the Yes campaign don’t play this well, I fear it could be the end of the YES campaign’.

    Fortunately, you are not alone Desimond, and the readership here IMHO are a bit too savvy to fall for such nonsense.

    However, getting to the substance of Georgey boy on his awayday to Scotland. The media have quite intentionally mixed TWO very different things together:

    1. iScotland using the pound

    2. I Scotland having a currency union with rUK

    Number 1 is a complete no-brainer. Cuba or Iraq could right now, this very minute choose to use the pound if they wanted to. No calls to London required. It is a fully tradeable currency. It wold be akin to choosing gold as your currency – nobody can stop you.

    As regards point number 2, as of today, neither George Osborne nor anybody else in the UK Government has said there will be no currency union. All the rest we have heard is pure manipulative spin. Read Osborne’s words carefully.

    Of concern within a supposed democracy however, is the way in which the BBC have abandoned ALL semblance of impartiality, running with false headlines for the last two days regarding this matter, which are damaging to the YES campaign. If anybody was ever in any doubt about the BBC and its ‘commitment’ to impartiality, they now know. The BBC is merely a puppet propagandist mouthpiece for Westminster. It is an utter utter disgrace.

    The world need to know about the ways in which the UK Government and their puppet propagandists at the BBC are now making quite deliberate and concerted efforts to gerrymander the democratic Scottish referendum on independence.

    There has been a lot of hot air and media hype today, but when you drill down to hard facts, nothing has changed, despite what Glenn Campbell of the biased BBC is trying to assert. Just stuff and nonsense.

    Good article on why currency union is good for rUK here

  151. heedtracker says:

    Scots live in a low wage, high tax economy, with high numbers of generational workless people but its all sold to us as great strength. Its why unionist’s keep saying over and over “if we add in UK oil” but what would Norway say if Norwegian economists went around excluding Norwegian oil and gas like they do here? Lying to about Scotland for the UK, economists and journalists and politicians. They don’t get on telly if they actually say something that’s not very very against voting YES.

    Its probably never going change here until/if Scottish upper middle classes start getting squeezed like they are in the USA. Labour bringing in Uni tuition fees could be the start though. Should be fun watching our Pacific Quay vote NO propagandists trying to get Labour in back into pretendy parliament power after all this UKOK propaganda nightmare.

  152. a supporter says:

    “I blame that very small cabal of ("Tractor" - Ed)ous Scots that would sell their own grannies as long as it kept them in line for promotion somewhere in UK PLC. Disgust and disappointment, don’t even begin to scratch the surface of what I feel for these insufferable wretches.”

    Fully agree with that. But it is a LARGE cabal and they will/should be loathed in Scotland ever after. What kind of Scot does what they do?

  153. moujick says:

    One of the things that probably won’t settle into peoples minds for a few days at least is the logical effect that this statement has in relation to any further proposed Powers for the Scottish Parliament.

    George Osbourne and the Treasury have basically said No to Currency Union becuase, in their view, Monetary Union =Fiscal Union=Political Union. If that is the case then logically there is no basis on which substantial additional Tax Powers could be devolved to the Scottish Parliament.

    Therefore, what George Osbourne implicitly outlined today was that a No vote means no additional powers for the Scottish Parliament.

  154. Papadocx says:

    This is the backstop to try and stop/reverse the trend to YES and buy time to try and cobble up a positive case for the NO campaign to get behind. The danger in the chosen path is you are very likely to get peoples backs up they don’t like being threatened, talked down to or lectured. Also the other side have got to be forced into playing your game at your speed on your terms. DONT THINK THATS GOING TO HAPPEN.

    The SG has got 4/5 credible and good options HMG have NONE this is it and they need the SG to play ball to their rules. This is a make or break time for NO they hope the SG gives them a hostage to fortune that they can attack. This position can’t be held for too long without results, or the CBI BOE MONEY MARKETS will get jittery and demand clarification, THEN THE BAWS ON THE SLATES, and ozzy’s BAWS will be on the chopping block, along with a few others. THE MIND BOGGLES.


  155. Famous15 says:

    So Osborne does not say what Darling said . The most he said was that as Chancellor he would not recommend the Sterling Zone. But by that time the vote would be in and reality would focus his and his colleagues’ minds. The Ayes haveit! The Ayes have it as the say in that hot house of theirs.

  156. Robert Louis says:


    You make a good point. Somebody I know, who normally takes little interest in politics, said that very thing to me this morning, about London bullying. he said, words to the effect of ‘if this is how they behave and how they want to treat us, then the sooner we go, the better’.

    I personally don’t like being bullied, and I don’t think many Scots will take kindly to this threatening from London’s elite.

    You could say, after today, the union is already dead, if not in fact, then surely in spirit.

  157. Colin says:

    Anyone else think the BBC is now pushing the “confusing” line a lot recently regarding issues the independence debate is throwing up instead of trying to break down the arguments with which folk can at least try and conclude what`s really going on here.
    They seem to be trying to make it confusing with their “they said this but they say this” so it`s anyone`s guess.
    Their program “Scotland`s top ten battle grounds” was a prime example and anyone who hasn`t watched it can find it on youtube.
    Seems pretty clear that the BBC is dancing to Westminster`s tune and will push the line they are given. Controlling the narrative the way they do is injecting much poison into the debate instead of facilitating both sides arguments.
    You just don`t get headlines which are positive to Yes Scotland, many “Warnings on independence” though.

  158. G H Graham says:

    Pay attention NO voters !

    If Scotland votes for independence, your beloved British state is going to spite you by denying you, your own currency even though you voted for them.

    Still feeling the love?

  159. can only find this quote in this Daily Mail, was searching for the quote bellow.
    it goes on to distort the truth out of all recognition, natch, but the kernal of truth is there;

    …”Throughout the Sixties and Seventies, this country had been outperformed by every European economy.

    ‘Britain is a tragedy — it has sunk to borrowing, begging, stealing until North Sea oil comes in,’ said Henry Kissinger.

    The Wall Street Journal in 1975 was blunter: ‘Goodbye, Great Britain: it was nice knowing you.’….”

    that is what George Osborne & co understand but will never state and is the reason why we shall have some fight to remove their grasping, desperate death grip

  160. Robert Louis says:

    G H Graham,

    Aye right enough. I can really feel the ‘love’ coming from London.

    The supposed ‘positive’ campaign and ‘lovebombing’ against independence lasted about five nanoseconds, if that.

  161. Gillie says:

    The moral of the story is that Westminster is no friend of Scotland.

    The view taken in Downing Street is that Scotland is an English possession, the Scots seen as frightened tenants of the land.

    This union is an abusive relationship. We either fight back or continue to take beatings.

  162. JLT says:

    I think everyone is a bit shellshocked over this, and it may take a couple of days to get over it.

    So where are we?

    First, we stick to the game plan. The pound is our currency. We go independent, and we use the pound. while we use the pound, we begin the mechanisms to creating a new currency (or if the pound continues to fall against the Euro, we consider the Euro). Either option is valid.

    The debt is still one of our aces. We hold that back as a possible threat. Do we pay or not. Personally, we pay a small portion, not £150 Billion, but say £40 billion due to being cheated out of oil for years. We still try to do the honourable thing.

    At the end of the day, the likes of Danny Alexander should hang his head in shame. Ruth Davidson is also cruising a fine line. Make no bones about it, these people have backed a Chancellor who has just threatened Scotland., This is not Better Together. Scotland has just been told that if she votes No, then basically, she is sub-servile to Westminster. It means that we are NOT equals.

    We stay the course. We use the Pound, and if we win, we begin the mechanisms of a new currency after say 5 to 10 years.

    Osborne drew a line in the sand. We have aces to play. The Debt, Faslane, tax receipts. The rest of the UK are walking towards higher taxes without realising it. Without currency union, Scotland could leave them saddled with enormous debt. With no oil to back Sterling, the pound could nosedive on day one of an indy Scotland. That means the rUK are looking down the barrel of the gun of severe austerity measures.

    In one way, Osborne played a blinder. He may have won this battle, but the war is far from won. The Scottish people will be highly disturbed at their new found position within the UK thinking. In other words, we are nothing to them than just servants.

  163. Robert Louis says:


    You are correct, the true attitude of London towards Scotland is on full show today.

    Time for a divorce, see link:

  164. Macandroid says:

    Next FMQs on 20th, Parliament is in recess.

  165. Gillie says:

    Osborne did NOT draw a line in the sand.

    A YES vote WILL deliver a currency union.

  166. Iain says:

    McTernan is a very able but pitiable character: he was brainwashed to perennial Labour Party loyalty at an early age, was a bitter adolescent, and never developed the scholarly maturity to consider that he might be wrong. Consequently he has had, from his youth, a huge grudge against a world which thwarts what his happiness depends on.

  167. JLT says:

    Also on reflection, I think what happened today is useful in another way.

    We now have to tell people, especially when canvassing, that this is the TRUE FACE of Better Together.

    We have been dictated too, as well as threatened. Never once has David or George even sat down to have proper reasonable and sensible dialogue.

    They have refused or ignored us. Now they threaten us.

    We must push that across to the people of Scotland and get them to realise what sort of system they do live under. The choice is simple.

    An Arrogant, Insidious Establishment …or a more social and just system.

    You choose.

  168. Alba4Eva says:

    Comments only appear when I log in and make a post. This means that comments are invisible to those who are not posting on this site. This needs to be rectified quickly.

  169. Roll_On_2014 says:

    @Robert Louis
    @G H Graham,

    Aye the lovin did nae last very lang did it.

    Michael White in The Grunard:

    Oh Alex, just think – you could have been the first minister of Panama

    and goes onto say:

    If things had worked out, Scotland would be the imperialist swines – but independent swines

    He dug this out from the Adam Smith report.

  170. JLT says:


    Right now, I think we need to start thinking on a level of what possibly may happen. I would rather we say, ‘OK, so be it. We may not have currency union, but we will use the pound in our own way.’

    Osborne spotted a weakness, and has hit home to score. Look at the media. They are falling over themselves. We can’t afford days like this. I think we need to take a more pragmatic view, and assume the possibility that we won’t be in a currency union.

    Should we win, and Dave and George suddenly ask us for currency union, then I would unleash on them my full fury. I would be demanding all sorts of things financially. Lower debt. backdated tax receipts on the oil.

    Lets play it now as if we are going to accept this. Lets make them sweat when the day comes when they ask us back to the table.

    Osborne did draw a line in the sand. I say we match him and follow this path to its full end. If we win …then oh …to be a fly on the wall when we have to sit down with Dave and George. It will be epic!

  171. MochaChoca says:

    This intervention seems to be generating far more in the way of international headlines than most.

  172. CyberNiall says:

    “In that scenario [not taking on UK debt] international lenders would look at Scotland and see a fledgling country whose only credit history was one gigantic default.”

    I don’t quite understand what’s so unappealing. If I was a bank would I lend to a new customer who managed to clear such a massive debt or would I lend to someone who is £1400000000000.00 in debt and will take at least 500 years to get out of the red. Who is more likely to be able to pay back their debt sooner? By that time we will no longer be a “fledgling”. I’d like to think we’d be more like a golden eagle soaring high over the Westminster dodo. Surely the world creditors won’t see it as Scotland running away from it’s debt and instead look at the rUK as chumps for giving us the opportunity!

    “And with little prospect of any benefit flowing in the other direction – for Scotland could only make a limited contribution to supporting a big English bank.”

    Why would we need to support a big English bank, if the UK works so well “in good times, and also in bad”?

  173. Rough Bounds says:

    I don’t really have anything to say except that I feel utterly disgusted with how the English Government are handling this independence debate.
    As for the plastic Jocks like Danny Alexander, Michael Moore and all the rest of them I am almost lost for words. God damn them.

    There is an awful lot of frustration building up in Scotland and it now looks like the time is coming when once again there will be a call to stand up and be counted.

    Why do the English never, ever learn?

  174. Luigi says:

    Having suffered their Stalingrad disaster with the white paper launch, when they were completely out-manouvered and effectively degraded, HMG and BT have just started the Battle of Kursk. Everything bar the kitchen sink has been thrown into the field in a desperate, last ditch attempt to stall the advancing YES army. Like Kursk, it will merely serve to hasten their demise. The YES defences are massive and they are already in place. They have gambled everything on reversing, nay halting the trend towards independence. During the next seven months, the struggle will be ferocious, but the outcome is already determined.

    Secret weapons (eg. pretendy devomax) will of course be launched nearer the end, but they will have little effect. Too little, too late.

  175. MochaChoca says:

    As someone further up has touched on, Devomax (pretendy or otherwise), would be pretty much ruled out by many of the same arguments used to rule out an indy currency union. Not that it would ever have happened anyway.

    I don’t know where they can go from here.

  176. msean says:

    If you go on holiday within the eu,you will have used the Euro,it must be ubderstood that the Euro is here to stay. They tried to break it,but its problems are known and being fixed,it will be better in the long run.

    Yes, Greece uses the Euro,but there again,so does Germany and many others.

  177. fergie35 says:

    So this is what the LabServative Dems have told us;
    Scotland is not a parnter in their union, the £ belongs to them, do as you are told or else, Scots are useless and couldnt handle the price of oil- its too volatile.
    Aye Right!

  178. Robert Kerr says:

    I consider “SNP/Yes” to be a clue to a unionist mindset in posters

    The referendum is about Scotland not one political party.

    Essentially YES = Scotland is a country. No = Scotland has been subsumed.

    Everything else is detail.

  179. CyberNiall says:

    Can we all at least congratulate George on managing to make it all the way up to Scotland to make his speech? 😆

  180. Robert Kerr says:

    I hope he travelled first class.

  181. muttley79 says:

    O/T Does anyone have information on how Scotland’s votes do not affect the outcome of UK general elections? By the way, what has happened to the Guardian’s Cif?

  182. David says:

    Worried about a Currency Change? Don’t be, because it’s dead easy! Everyone over a certain age in the UK went through the change to a Decimal Pound in 1971. Young kids, old fogeys, we all survived this change to our money.

    We survive when we go on holiday, using the Euro, US Dollar, Turkish Lira, and so on.

    Shops survive when they buy foods priced in Euros, and sell them to us in Pounds.

    Car salesmen survive when they buy American/European/Japanese cars, priced in US Dollars/Euros/Yen, and sell them to us in Pounds.

    The currency we will use is not a deal-breaker for independence, whether it is tied to the Pound Sterling or not.

  183. Mealer says:

    NO has had a poor few weeks in opinion polls etc.So they big up Osbournes speech as something dramatic when in fact there is nothing new in it.The BBC got the press bandwagon rolling well before the speech.This is all about using the media to put YES onto the back foot again.To stop momentum growing for a YES vote.To give the media an opportunity to undermine growing confidence among Scots that we can manage very well without London rule.It is up to each of us to reassure people,face to face by word of mouth,that Scotland is an energy rich and wealthy country who can do much better if we make the decisions ourselves.

  184. gerry parker says:

    I’ve got my tickets for it.

  185. Bob W says:


    It’s a paper mache tank. Nothing has been destroyed, plan A, B or Z is that initially, after independence, the currency in use in iScotland will be the pound sterling. G.O. may have muddied the floodwaters slightly, but no entity, individual or external agency can stop that happening, as the pound is, as a matter of fact, a freely trade-able currency.

    Any country in the world could use the pound as it’s currency without any form of agreement from Gideon Osborne, Danny Alexander, Ed Balls or any future UK/ rUK government or it’s minions.

  186. James123 says:

    O/T Does anyone have information on how Scotland’s votes do not affect the outcome of UK general elections? By the way, what has happened to the Guardian’s Cif?

    In 1964 Labour won the election with a majority of 4, without Scottish votes a hung parliament would have resulted, there was another election 18 months later anyway.

    In 1974 Labour won with a majority of 3, without Scottish votes a coalition may have been formed between Labour and other smaller parties to keep them in power.

    In 2010 David Cameron would have had a majority, so no need to form a coalition, but hey what’s the difference.

    In every other election since the war the outcome would have been exactly the same. So in effect Scottish votes make no difference whatsoever.

  187. JGedd says:

    Like others on here, I believe the UK economy is doomed. It is drowning in debt and seems to be in uncharted waters with many unseen icebergs. However, they appear to be keeping it afloat by bluff.

    To change the analogy it’s like one of those variety acts of old – end of the pier stuff – spinning plates which eventually wobble and can only be kept spinning by adroit manipulation. So far, the plates are still spinning but we are waiting for them to crash to the floor. After all, the stage act only had to keep going until their spot ended. Westminster has to keep them spinning all the time.

    I think Gideon could only have undertaken such a breathtaking stunt with the assurance that the media were on board and would back his play absolutely. With a truly democratic media, he couldn’t get away with it since scorn would have been poured on his pronouncements from at least some parts of the media.

    If there is a no vote, the UK establishment will know, to paraphrase one of their rotten organs of the media, ” it was the media what won it “.

  188. Macart says:

    @Robert Louis

    After today’s reveal by Osborne and Balls and regardless of result in the referendum, they have officially just destroyed the union.

    Nobody responds well to threat. They may feel fear or like us anger and the need to do something about it, but nobody ever thanks you for a threat. Make no mistake this is exactly what it is, hardball negotiations in full public view and no attempt to hide their true nature.

  189. Appleby says:

    John McTernan is a clueless idiot or a scaremongering liar, I don’t see why they have him on at all as some sort of “expert opinion” when he is clearly a bad and biased source and can get it so very wrong on the most obvious of things.

  190. Tamson says:

    Regarding all these Labour types telling the Yes campaign to get over it and give up. What would they say if we told them, having lost an election, to give up fighting for socialism, social justice, and pro…. Oh, hang on, I’ve just worked out their logic!

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