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A quiet revision

Posted on October 12, 2015 by

After we highlighted the ridiculous inconsistencies in press reports last week regarding Edinburgh MP Michelle Thomson’s business dealings with a couple in Cumbernauld, we’ve been in a lengthy dialogue with Sunday Mail editor Jim Wilson over the plainly utterly wrong claim in the latter paper that:

Wright, 61, and husband Douglas sold their flat to Thomson and business partner Frank Gilbride for £21,000 because they wanted to sell quickly.”

After we provided the Mail with documentary evidence of the sale price, we naively expected a tiny mealy-mouthed correction buried in a corner of this week’s edition. But what we got was something very substantially worse even than that.

The “clarifications & corrections” column on page 2 contained nothing other than a correction to the score of a Hearts vs Partick Thistle football match in 1958. We thought the issue of the Wrights’ house price was just going to be totally whitewashed, but then we got to page 4, which contains a full-page hatchet job on the Law Society – naturally illustrated with a picture of Michelle Thomson, who isn’t a member of it.

maillawsoc

And if you read right to the end of the article and pay attention very closely indeed, there’s something of note in the last two paragraphs.

lawsoc

Did you spot it? In four sentences phrased as another bitter attack on Thomson, the Mail quietly and sneakily sort-of corrects its lie of seven days earlier:

“Jacqueline Wright and husband Douglas agreed Thomson’s firm could sell their flat. They received £21,000 and had a similar-sized mortgage paid off.”

Let’s look at that first paragraph again. If Thomson’s firm made “around £25,000” on a £75,000 sale, that’d mean they gave the Wrights something close to £50,000 – as far as we’d previously established from other evidence the precise sum was £51,000.

So if the deal was £21,000 plus the paying-off of a mortgage, then the mortgage must therefore have been £30,000.

So firstly, the Mail is calling £30,000 a “similar-sized” sum to £21,000 – which is a bit of a stretch, as it’s actually around 43% bigger. If someone owed the Mail £30,000 and only paid them £21,000 we doubt they’d say “Oh, what the heck, that’s similar”.

Secondly, in an incredibly roundabout and opaque way, tucked in at the tail end of an article about something else, the paper is admitting that the sale price from the Wrights to Thomson was £51,000 rather than the £21,000 it told us last week – almost two and a half times as much – without at any point acknowledging that the original figure was a serious falsehood.

If you sell your car to someone for £10,000 and use £9,000 of the money to pay off a bank loan, leaving you with a thousand quid, the sale price is still £10,000. It’s not £1,000. Yet that’s the absurd deception the Mail is trying to pull off over the sale of the Wrights’ house.

The fact is that the couple made a handsome profit of £30,000 on it in four years, but are now belatedly griping that it wasn’t enough. Given the “social justice” angle the press and political opponents are trying to put on the story, that may seem to readers like a pretty rapacious attitude – particularly as the Wrights’ profit came off the back of a taxpayer subsidy of their original purchase of the house for just £21,000.

We suppose we should be grateful that the Sunday Mail has at least kind of told the truth now, albeit in the most dishonest, misleading and grudging manner imaginable, and that last week’s article has now been amended with the new weasel wording. (We’d make a complaint to IPSO, but we’ve filed three before and every one of them has vanished into the ether without a trace, so it hardly seems worth the bother.)

The best we can do is make sure that we, at least, print it nice and big.

.

[EDIT 13 October: ironically, we made an error ourselves in this piece. Jim Wilson is the Sunday Mail’s actual editor, not its “complaints editor” as we originally stated. We have of course corrected the first paragraph of the article accordingly.]

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    1. 13 10 15 11:52

      A quiet revision | Politics Scotland | Scoop.it

    314 to “A quiet revision”

    1. Taranaich says:

      We need to set up a “Newspaper apologies” tweet like that Sun Apologies account, only for all papers.

    2. Capella says:

      Wasn’t it also 4 years later that the house was sold for £75,000? It could have been renovated by that time!

    3. handclapping says:

      The Sunday Mail is the Daily Record on a Sunday.
      The Mail on Sunday is the Daily Mail on a Sunday.
      It has always confused me.

    4. ClanDonald says:

      @Taranaich: you’d need them to apologise first for that to work.

    5. Colin Church says:

      The faecal matter of the story maybe getting washed away but the smell will hang around for a while more.

      Job done for the Corpmedia.

      Waits for “Thomson scandal re-ignites as…”

    6. Wulls says:

      Flabberghasted.
      Sunday Mail tells the truth(ish)
      Somehow the border between truth and fiction have become so blurred in this rag they have perfected the skill of telling the truth while insinuating a lie that they previously printed as a lie which insinuated they were telling the truth.

    7. Callum says:

      Hard to say, but it also looks like the Wright’s were well behind on their mortgage payments or had extended their mortgage. With the new prudent mortgages that came in 2009 they would have found it tough to get an interest only mortgage or would have only been able to choose an expensive mortgage due to a heavy loan to value.

    8. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Hard to say, but it also looks like the Wright’s were well behind on their mortgage payments or had extended their mortgage”

      As far as we can tell they took out a £30,000 mortgage for the £21,000 sale. Could have been for improvements, or for something else entirely. With the house worth around £70,000 at the time they wouldn’t have had trouble getting a mortgage for less than half its value, even though it was more than the purchase price.

    9. Grouse Beater says:

      My Italian chippy used newspaper to wrap a fish supper, but refuses these days on the grounds newspapers are unhygienic.

      And the cat won’t use shredded newspaper either.

    10. Bob Mack says:

      Rev,

      “The authority of a thousand is not worth the reasoning of a single humble man” ——-Galileo.

    11. yesindyref2 says:

      I quite like this game. All I need, it seems, is to find someone willing to stake me £21,000 and I can make a cool £9,000 same day.

      I just need to lend the Sunday Mail £21,000 and they will repay me a similar-sized £30,000 the same day. Halvers anyone with the stake money?

      And to think back in the day Mail Money used to be a reason for actually buying the Mail. How sad. How far it’s fallen. Fallen. Fallen.

    12. Callum says:

      Indeed, but there hadn’t been many sales on that street so determining a value would have been hard for a surveyor in the 07 to ’11 period – also, banks at the time were very careful about loan extensions. Especially for ex-local council stock.

      Coming out of the property in such a short time with such a high gain is close to London Docklands asset inflation standards! Kerching!

    13. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Indeed, but there hadn’t been many sales on that street so determining a value would have been hard for a surveyor in the 07 to ’11 period”

      Well, not really. We know roughly how long they lived in the house for, and we therefore know what the discount would have been. We can therefore work back from the known sale price to what the valuation would have been – £70,000.

      (£21,000 paid with a 70% discount = £70,000.)

    14. Dan Huil says:

      I can only conclude the Daily Record is deliberately persuing a policy of circulation-suicide.

      We had Labour in Scotland doing the Tories dirty work during the referendum; now its Scotland’s media doing Westminster’s dirty work. We all know what happened to Labour in Scotland…

    15. Chitterinlicht says:

      Good spot.

      But just how much damage has been done?

      Going to be constant this, possibly forever.

    16. mealer says:

      Rev,
      we don’t get Scotland games on normal TV.We get England games.I assume that down in Bath you get Scotland games but not England games.So I just thought I’d let you know that England are up three nil.

    17. Is this them?

      Glasgow, United Kingdom, CUNARD, Mizuno Golf, European Tour, Scotland, Cruise Critic, The Black Bull Cumbernauld Village, Smiddy Inn, RBS Scottish Rugby, Onlinegolf, Independence of the Seas, Rugby World Cup, KLM, Cruise Fever, Smelly Ratand 2 more

      Been living above their means.

    18. Grouse Beater says:

      When journalists, television and newspaper alike, in an attempt to keep a nation cowed, continue day and night to fabricate ‘facts, to lie, and to dissemble, there has to come a point when they ask themselves ‘are we insane’?

    19. Cadogan Enright says:

      For those who understand the Land Reform issue , there was an “Analysis” program tonight on BBC radio 4 at 8.30pm.

      It was replete with causes for complaint, with lots of references to “one part state” stealing land from goos citizens.

      I heard no reference to precedents in (for instance) Ireland

      Nor proper references as to how this over-concentration of ownership arose

      I whacked in a complaint but someone who knows more could do a better job of it off IPLAYER

    20. Phronesis says:

      ‘It is a thing of no great difficulty to raise objections against another man’s oration,–nay, it is a very easy matter; but to produce a better in its place is a work extremely troublesome’ Plutarch

      Unfortunately for a MSM that is in terminal decline it is getting easier to do both as illustrated daily on this site.

      Of course having an educated, engaged electorate that is aligned with a party of conviction politicians doesn’t help an establishment who fears true democracy. It is very logical-vote for our party of independence and Scotland will be independent.

    21. Grey Dug says:

      Why does the May 2011 sale show the sellers to be D and J Wright at a price of £75,000? Should that not be circa £51,000?

    22. Garrion says:

      “I don’t know how these people can sleep at night”.

      Me neither.

    23. Callum says:

      £70k, ah yes, I’d forgotten about the tenant discount which would allow the surveyor to calculate an open market price.

    24. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Why does the May 2011 sale show the sellers to be D and J Wright at a price of £75,000? Should that not be circa £51,000?”

      We’ve been over all this stuff. It was sold through M&F Property Solutions at that price, under an written agreement between them and the Wrights that M&F would keep everything over £51,000. In effect it was “sold” to M&F for that price.

    25. Macart says:

      A Tory conference with enough headline material to terrify any sane person and we get?

      Churnalism.

      Well done our meeja, for keeping us informed and up to date on the real issues facing the Scottish electorate (slow hand clap).

    26. David McDowell says:

      “The “clarifications & corrections” column on page 2 contained nothing other than a correction to the score of a Hearts vs Partick Thistle football match in 1958.”

      Fifty-seven years is a long time to take to correct a football score but I suppose it’s better late than never!
      It is the MSM after all! 😉

    27. Skip_NC says:

      Hang on a minute. So the Wrights knew that the property was valued at #70,000 when they bought it, at a deep discount, I might add? So why is it a surprise to them that M&F sold it for #5,000 more than that, four years later? Why did they value it at #51,000 when selling (for that is, effectively, what they did).

      It seems to me this was a fire sale. There was a willing buyer and, let’s be honest here, a willing seller, in full possession of all relevant facts.

    28. ahundredthidiot says:

      God forbid these people turn out to have some sort of gambling or drinking problem, because that’ll be Michelle Thomson’s fault too.

    29. schrodingers cat says:

      the snp have been really quiet about this, waiting for the investigations to conclude I dare say.

      if, as many of your articles here seem to point out that there is no case to answer for MT, is there a recourse for her and/or the snp to hit back? would it be worth it?

    30. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Is this them?”

      Don’t think so.

    31. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “if, as many of your articles here seem to point out that there is no case to answer for MT, is there a recourse for her and/or the snp to hit back? would it be worth it?”

      I’ve painstakingly and repeatedly noted that I have no idea whether there’s a case for Michelle Thomson to answer or not. Just because the papers have told lies doesn’t in itself mean she’s innocent of any wrongdoing.

      But if it turns out that she IS cleared, I’d say she had pretty good grounds for defamation claims against several people.

    32. Robert Louis says:

      The purpose of owning a business, is ostensibly to make a profit. In order to be successful you need to provide something which matches what people are prepared to buy. That is sound business, producing a product to meet the market needs.

      The ‘Scottish’ newspapers are businesses, yet seem to have no care for profit. As their sales continue to slide, and they maintain their parochial ‘poor wee Scotland’ anti SNP/Scottish Government narrative’ to keep London happy, they make less and less money. They know it, and we all know it.

      Fifty years ago, only a few people cared much for the SNP, so in a strict sense, it was deemed OK for the press to ignore them, and for that matter, any suggestion of independence. Now, here in 2015, we have the results of a referendum showing almost half of Scots want independence. That’s a lot of potential customers, to ignore.

      In addition, we have just witnessed Labour getting wiped out by an SNP whose support keeps increasing. Yet, still, the so -called ‘Scottish’ press maintains their anti Scotland ‘get back in yer box’, SNP BAAAAD, narrative.

      They go against all the polling evidence available. They go against all current market trends. It is like they are in a time warp. Scotland has moved on, yet the ‘Scottish’ press are stuck in 1971. They pretend Labour is still somehow relevant. Like they do with Gordon (Britin, Britin, Britin) Brown.

      This leads me to the simple conclusion, either the entire ownership of the ‘Scottish’ press is quite mad, or the so-called ‘Scottish press is run for no reason other than propaganda, to keep the Scots at (London’s) heel.

      It certainly isn’t run for profit.

    33. One_Scot says:

      The thing is The Sunday Mail and Daily Record lie and manipulate the voting public repeatedly, and they have the cheek to charge people money who may well believe their lies.

      How these people sleep at night is beyond me. At least Dick Turpin had the decency to wear a mask.

      The sooner these outfits fold the better. Scotland deserves better, much better.

    34. caledonia says:

      David McDowell says:
      12 October, 2015 at 9:51 pm

      “The “clarifications & corrections” column on page 2 contained nothing other than a correction to the score of a Hearts vs Partick Thistle football match in 1958.”

      Fifty-seven years is a long time to take to correct a football score but I suppose it’s better late than never!
      It is the MSM after all! 😉

      CANT STOP LAUGHING AT THIS

    35. Giving Goose says:

      If proof were needed that the raison d’être of the Daily Record is to act as a propaganda sheet for the London Establishment. The only crime that Michelle Thomson appears to have committed is to be Scottish.

      Not London Labour.

      Not Tory.

      Not Lib Dem, but Scottish.

      Scottish that doesn’t involve kneeling on blended knee before supposed London betters.

      That’s what really gets up the nose of the Daily Record editors and their fellow London Labour/Tory travellers; it is the singular fact that a large number of Scots, both politicians and voters simply have got the backbone and bottle to stand up on their own two feet and be their own masters.

      Servants lacking backbone hate seeing that because it shows them, the servants up for the spineless lackies that they are. “Please sir can I have some more?” Please sir can I lick your boots and where do I vote Labour/Tory sir?”

      I get strength every day from the knowledge that I and fellow Independent minded Scots have got both the mental and moral courage that people like the Daily Record staff can only jealously dream of.

      The Daily Record? The London Labour/Tory party?

      I’ve got a snottery, used hanky with more integrity, body and perfume than they ever can hope to have!

    36. Robert Louis says:

      Macart, at 0950pm,

      I think you hit the nail on the head. A rabid anti social Tory Government holding their conference, but up here in Scotlandshire, we get wall to wall anti SNP nonsense.

      The media in Scotland is a sick joke.

    37. Paula Rose says:

      ( @ mealer 9:24 – giggle )

    38. Sinky says:

      Several complaints to IPSO should be sent by Wingers as it is the only way we can keep pressure on them to tell something like the truth.

    39. Grouse Beater says:

      Wings: I’ve painstakingly and repeatedly noted that I have no idea whether there’s a case for Michelle Thomson to answer or not.

      Unless Thomson collaborated knowingly and willingly with Hales, he stating from the get-go that he had a fool proof scam that could engineer a lucrative payback on certain sales if she took on ownership of the properties, I can’t think of a route by which she could be guilty of anything, particularly if her partner in law, (she’s a former musician) did all the deals and accountancy. The only alternative is the least likely, that she approached him with the scam and secured his eager involvement.

    40. Auld Rock says:

      Hi All,

      Any of you know where the Wrights are staying now and is it bought or rented and if rented from whom – COONCIL???

      If any of you heading to Aberdeen on Thursday hope to see you there.

    41. Macart says:

      Its beyond a sick joke RL.

      That conference should have filled our news from start to finish, the first speech to the last. The protests, the snipers and barricades, the May speech, Gideon and Boris jostling for leadership position, Jeremy Hunt and the removal of tax credits, Cammo’s final day brainfart, it had it all.

      The union in terminal decline and run by the little empire pig fanciers association. It should have been meat and potatoes for our so called Labour fancying titles, yet they are so caught up in the SNP bad bullshit they’ve thrown baby, bathwater, the entire bloody bathroom oot the windae.

    42. caledonia says:

      Sinky says:
      12 October, 2015 at 10:14 pm

      Several complaints to IPSO should be sent by Wingers as it is the only way we can keep pressure on them to tell something like the truth.

      How do you go about it

    43. G H Graham says:

      So the Wright’s purchased a £21k debt in return for a security (mortgage) on an asset (house) even though the asset was worth substantially more (around £51k) because it was heavily subsidized by the taxpayer. Nice deal if you can get one like that.

      They then used the net equity (£30k) as their personal ATM machine to pay for something else; annual suntan in Benidorm, new car, flat panel telly in every room, botox for the cat or whatever.

      Meanwhile, the cost of the original debt would have been around £145 per month but that would have more than doubled to around £350 per month upon signing the second IOU.

      But after four years, they couldn’t continue paying £350 per month so decided to flog the house in a fire sale, cos they needed to get out from under the debt quickly.

      Michelle Thomson helped them do that on the agreed assumption that if she sold it on for a price higher than that offered & accepted (£51k), she could keep the difference.

      Presumably, the botoxed cat wasn’t included in the deal. But quite why Michelle Thomson is apportioned any blame for the Wright’s financial decision making, still remains a mystery.

      If there’s any inequality to complain about it’s that everyone else has to pay the full market value if they want to own a property.

    44. Big Jock says:

      So have I got this correct. The wrights got their mortgage paid off and walked away with £25k profit.

      Yet a business making the same profit is immoral! If we think about the pressure Michelle was under to walk away. Now not only has she done nothing illegal. She has been hauled through the coals for making a modest profit on a sale.

    45. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “So the Wright’s purchased a £21k debt in return for a security (mortgage) on an asset (house) even though the asset was worth substantially more (around £51k)”

      No. The asset was valued at £70K and sold to them at a 70% discount.

    46. R-type Grunt says:

      The “Scottish Press” are nothing but Britnat trolls. As long as they can sing GSTQ and fly UJ’s they couldn’t give a flying fuck about this country or anyone in it. That’s all of them by the way, even the ones who purport to be balanced.

    47. galamcennalath says:

      Robert Louis says:
      “The media in Scotland is a sick joke”

      To our objective unbiased eyes, yes indeed. 😉

      From their perspective, they realise they are now in the final defence of their BritNat long to rule over us beloved Union. Kamikazi mentality comes to mind.

    48. orri says:

      I’m kind of losing track here but I thought that the dubiety in the sales was that one partner in the firm bought a house at one price and immediately sold it to the other at a higher but refunded nearly the whole of the difference in cash back. In reality there were no profits being made.

    49. Capella says:

      @ Cadogan Enright 9.26
      I missed that broadcast but will listen on iPlayer. Basically, the Landowners Federation lobbies to maintain the status quo, which is that vast areas of Scottish land is owned by a few oligarchs. It has been that way since Culloden when the lands were confiscated and gifted to London based toffs.

      Arguably, it has been that way since David 1st imported feudal overlords to impose a feudal system. Mr Peffers can elucidate.

      The Scottish Government is proposing some very modest changes which would allow local communities to use land for community development, even where the landowner opposes it.

      Of course, they (the landowners) believe that this is a “Mugabe style land grab.”

      If only.
      See Andy Wightman’s blog for details on land issues.
      http://www.andywightman.com/

      He is standing for the Greens in the Holyrood elections and I do hope he is elected.

    50. Democracy Reborn says:

      It was common practice for tenants purchasing their council house (sometimes at a substantial discount) to extend the loan/mortgage beyond the level of the purchase price in order to finance ‘home improvements’.

      Nothing wrong with that : the lender would have a security over the property and be adequately protected since the ‘market value’ of the house would be well above the discounted price paid by the tenant. Whether the tenant would *actually* use the extra funds advanced for home improvements is, of course, another matter.

    51. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting point about the poor coverage of the Conservative conference in Scotland, while the papers are full of “SNP Bad”. No in-=depth analysis apart from a bit about tax credits.

      Scotland is 100% Conservative, neutral to them, or anti-Conservative, but 100% in Scotland are affected by what might be decided in the conference, whether good for them or bad. Conservatives are Government, unlike Labour.

      So the media in its anti-SNP frenzy hasn’t just let down SNP supporters, it’s let down 100% of Scotland who will know there was a conference, mostly because it has been on TV a bit in the news.

      Do you think 100% of Scotland will notice that and wonder …

    52. Sinky says:

      Caledonia @10.35

      Sorry for delay Watching Nicola on TV

      Make an IPSO complaint regarding Sunday Mail etc

      https://www.ipso.co.uk/IPSO/index.html

      SNP Regional List order results available at SNP members hub under elections:

      snp.org/elections/holyrood_2016_regional

      Although until I find out which candidates are contesting constituencies, it doesn’t tell me all I need to know.

    53. G H Graham says:

      Rev Stu, “No. The asset was valued at £70K and sold to them at a 70% discount.”

      I stand corrected. The generosity of the taxpayer was even higher than I had recalled.

      How awful for the Wright family!

    54. galamcennalath says:

      The bottom line being pushed by SLab and the entire CorpMedia is that an SNP MP was previously in business and made profits. And, is therefore not a ‘comrade’, not one of the workers like all SLabians pretend to be.

      There may be legal issues to answer for, but that does look unlikely.

      It’s all about driving a wedge between left minded Indy supporters and the broad church SNP.

      I think we have reached the stage where independence is the target, and it’s looking increasingly attainable. Most Yes supporters see the big picture and the big prize.

      The SNP will get the votes of people committed to independence as a means to an end.

    55. Grouse Beater says:

      A truly mind-boggling, puerile attempt at interviewing Sturgeon by BBC’s thirty second politics, ‘Scotland 2015’.

      The questions were illogical, loaded, full of non-sequiturs, an glaring example of amateur journalism at its worst, for students of politics to analyse and study.

      This was followed by an announcement of a new arts series fronted by “acclaimed artist, Lachlan Goudie”.

      Acclaimed where, when?

      Where did he train? What awards or scholarships has he been given? Any solo exhibitions? Any work held in public and private collections? Museums? A member of the Royal Scottish Academy, or the Royal Academy of Arts, London – no?

      So … where does ‘acclaimed’ come from?

      Wait a minute! Not the Lachlan Goudie that paints by numbers?

    56. ahundredthidiot says:

      Way O/T

      When everyone has a wee tear in their eye watching stand up to cancer, with real life stories which are heartbreaking, I am thinking like a facetious bastard.

      Let’s not cure cancer, let’s spend 100 billion fucking quid on trident.

    57. David Smith says:

      May every single, blue, red and yellow Tory MSP, every bent councillor and every single mickey mouse tinpot lying shyster bastard joke journalist lose their worthless job and be forced to leave the country and people that they have shamelessly denigrated and betrayed for far too long. They are unworthy of picking up dog shit from Scotland’s streets. Malodourous, dishonourable criminal toxic vermin – each and every last one of them!

    58. Rock says:

      Big Jock,

      “She has been hauled through the coals for making a modest profit on a sale.”

      A profit of £24,000 on a sale of £75,000, without any interwining period for property appreciation, is not a “modest profit on a sale”.

      Of course it was done perfectly legally with the buyers’ agreement.

      But the majority of people in Scotland are ‘socialist’ by nature. They don’t support such business practices.

      That is the reason the media are using this to smear the SNP.

      I would not want the likes of Thomson to be in the SNP.

      The likes of “Business for Scotland” and “Lawyers for Yes” are better suited to the Tory parties – blue, red or green. Next time, they should form part of ‘Tories for Yes”.

      Thomson has not broken any law. But she has certainly damaged the SNP.

    59. boris says:

      The many homes of Michael Meacher – Two years ago he condemned owners of second homes, now he has nine himself

      http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jan/20/politics.labour

    60. Grouse Beater says:

      Rock: But she has certainly damaged the SNP.

      Stop playing silly bugger.

    61. yesindyref2 says:

      @Sinky
      link doesn’t work, regional candidates can be found here:

      http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2015/oct/snp-welcomes-progress-gender-equality-2016

    62. Sinky says:

      Once again Rock @ 11.15 proves he hasn’t a scooby of how to win a referendum or an election campaign or support pro Indy media that gets onto newspaper shelves which like Business for Scotland and Lawyers for Yes and Wings reaches parts that the SNP can’t.

    63. Paula Rose says:

      I really try to stay away from a main thread when Rock appears but really – that is so obvious.

    64. Capella says:

      @ Rock
      Buying for £51,000 and selling for £75,00 after 4 years, in a property boom, and maybe even after renovations, is not necessarily excessive. Get a grip.

    65. davidb says:

      @ Rock

      A few years after independence we can assess how the majority of Scots think. I presently vote SNP because my country should be free to run its own affairs as it sees fit. I’m not expecting a socialist republic any time soon. I would vote for some SSP type party if I wanted that.

      Actually if anything, you could fairly say the majority are unionist. Or maybe stupid – I have Irish acquaintances who told me that.

      I would suggest that anti business, and class or sectarian based notions of politics are not helpful at this time – those groups get a vote on independence too. Turkeys on the whole are not thought likely to vote for Christmas. But business types may have deeper pockets than others – and campaigns cost money.

    66. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Weare living in very different times.

      Not so long ago no reputable newspaper would have printed lies. They may not have printed all the truth and they certainly would have a strong point of view in political terms.
      But they would not have printed demonstrable untruths.
      They do now

      They do because they know if the lies are designed to affect the debate on the constitutional issue they will get away with them as the establishment closes ranks.

      What is more unpalatable however is the number of unionist Scottish political figures colluding in the lies told to the people who elected them.

      Is there no honest person in the ranks of the other parties in the Scottish Parliament?

    67. heedtracker says:

      “Do you think you were led up the garden path then?”

      “I think we have been, not just me but other people aswell”

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-worlds-worst-victim/#more-76325

      And this year’s EMMY for the sneakiest, creepiest, most deranged anti SNP propaganda for 2015 goes to, all of them in every teamGB newsroom really.

    68. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Orri, your referring to the practise of “back to back” sales whereby the house is sold by the occupier to person B who then sells to person C the same day, at a higher price. This is the price which informs the mortgage. C then gives a cashback to B.

      This is what the solicitor was struck of for, or more accurately, he was struck of for not following the mortgage rules as laid down and informing the lenders of such things as seller occupying house for less than 6 months etc, which COULD be an indication of mortgage fraud.

      However none of this has anything to do with this house which belonged to the Wrights or Michelle Thomson. It seems from the records which Stu dug out a few days ago, that it has been sold twice. Sale one was from the cooncil to the wrights for £21K in 2007. Sale two was in 2011 for £75000, sold to S Weir. This implies that MT was a third party to the sale, guaranteeing £51K to the Wrights(who were in a hurry to sell in a poor market) and also sourcing a purchaser for the property (Weir). Her fee was whatever the difference was between the sale price and the guarenteed £51K. From the records it seems to be still in S Weir’s hands.

    69. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Capella, wrong again. the house has been sold twice only. Once for 21K in 2007, and again for 75K in 2011. The 51K is what the wrights got. They got an increase of 30K for 4 years which paid of their mortgage of 30K and walked away with 21K in their pocket. MT supposedly arranged the deal and got anything over and above the 51K. I say supposedly as Stu tweeted that a source close to MT said that she had not even met the Wrights…

    70. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Another thought ocurred to me as i read my comments above. After the Wrights called in MTPS to sell/arrange their house they probably discussed why they needed to sell quickly. If they said they were in danger of repossesion/mortgage arrears etc then they would have decreased the value of their house(the value to THEM at that point in time, not the actual value) as they were in a weak position with regard to trying to negotiate a better deal. If you had a week/month to sell, you cant hang about for a better deal.

    71. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Paula Rose, where is paper when you it…

    72. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Argh too soon, where is paper when you need it…

    73. [My previous comment about this vanished, I presume because it was too O/T, too early in the thread.]

      A ‘British Academic’ won the freakin Nobel Prize for Economics today, apparently. The BBC managed to grudgingly note that he was ‘born in Edinburgh’, in the final sentence about him in the article on their website. The ‘Scotland’ page on their website currently has just a tiny link to the main article (which is in the business section), and not even a picture to go with it.

      Surely, in any other country on earth, even a country under repressive occupation, it would have to be a BIG DEAL in the media if a local wins a major international prize??? Sadly not here it seems. It’s amazing how far the beeb will go to keep up the wee-poor-stupid narrative about Scots and Scotland.

      https://archive.is/U4WVm

      Meanwhile, Yahoo news have ‘Scottish Economist wins Nobel Prize’ as their headline, and the Times of India calls him Scottish in the first sentence of their piece.

      I just googled it, and Pravda actually reported it in detail when the dissident Solzhenitsyn got a Nobel. Obviously he was less of a threat to the USSR than a positive story about S_____d is to the UK. FFS

    74. Graeme Doig says:

      I think it’s remarkable that Michelle Thomson has not resigned as MP under the onslaught.

      Good on her and the govt for remaining calm during the relentless campaign against her.

      Seems to me that the fact that she is still around suggests there will be no case to answer and it will be all the establishment detractors who will be left with their charcoal pants around their ankles.

    75. Ghillie says:

      Despicable liars. Business as usual.

      Smokescreen? DEFINITLY! Tory conference and setting of date for Carmichael’s (and Mundell’s) court case ( AND that STV will NOT be allowed to film the witnesses!) to name just two. Tom Watson’s defence of his persuing alegations against Leon Brittan, another.

      The panic is reaching fever pitch.

      I really enjoyed hearing Michelle Thomson speak up for Scottish Independence and was delighted when she stood as an SNP candidate.

      I find it difficult to believe that she would ever knowingly commit fraud and on that note, I wish Michelle well.

    76. Dr Jim says:

      If a Lawyer breaks the Law, only he is responsible, to argue somebody put him up to it won’t work other wise we’d all be saying to folk to jump off bridges and that would be our fault if they stupidly did it

      2015 Interview with Nicola Sturgeon by Shelly Jofre
      Look and listen again Ms Jofre put down the red carpet for the FM to walk on after she got the drivel out of the way

      The FM got the opportunity that she wanted to lay out her Flagship education policy unhindered by the usual interruptions

      Then in the Interview with the “expert journos” later they both sounded like the amateur labourites they are

      “JOHN McKAY” was a scream with Adam Tomkin and Linda Fabiani every answer from Fabiani and question from Colin McKay brought forth sounds from Tomkin like eugh eh oh b bb bn n and f f final word SNP Bad smothered by Colin McKay going “Aye Right” dismissively

    77. Robert Peffers says:

      @Grouse Beater says: 12 October, 2015 at 10:28 pm:

      ” … Unless Thomson collaborated knowingly and willingly with Hales.”

      ATM Grouse Beater Hales is not guilty of anything except breaching the Law Society’s Guidelines.

      Far as I can make out he applied for a Bank Mortgage to cover both the purchase price and the mortgage arrears, (or perhaps just the outstanding portion of the couples mortgage).

      One assumes the Bank made no complaint for the simple reason the debt was repaid properly with interest.

      The Law Society complaint was that the lawyer did not report the excess mortgage part of the arrangement to them. In fact no one lost out. The couple got a profit and their mortgage settled. The Bank got its loan repaid and shot of a difficult to sell property and Ms Thompson’s company made a profit too.

    78. Les Wilson says:

      It does appear that Michelle has no case to answer, if that is proved to be, it will be interesting how the corporate media will handle their apologies.
      We will be waiting!.

    79. Grouse Beater says:

      Peffers: “Grouse Beater Hales is not guilty of anything except breaching the Law Society’s Guidelines.”

      Hope I didn’t imply that – was speculating because I can’t find anything wrong with the way the company operated, and am pretty sure Thomson left paperwork to Hales.

      Mrs Wright’s assertion that Thomson entered her house to check it out doesn’t make sense either. Someone from the firm arrived at the property. I can’t see Thomson doing it. Her solicitor denies she was there. STV allows that confusion to remain.

    80. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 13 October, 2015 at 12:57 am:

      “JOHN McKAY” was a scream with Adam Tomkin and Linda Fabiani every answer from Fabiani and question from Colin McKay brought forth sounds from Tomkin like eugh eh oh b bb bn n and f f final word SNP Bad smothered by Colin McKay going “Aye Right” dismissively.”

      Hey! Dr Jim, I don’t usually watch TV but I saw that in my pal’s house. What cracked me up was the look on Linda Fabiani’s face when Tompkin was speaking. She had quite a struggle to stop laughing and the camera guy made sure he cut to her face when Tompkin was at his most incoherent.

    81. manandboy says:

      A flimsy case of house purchase is blown out of all proportion and spread everywhere in the Scottish media for a lengthy period time, almost wilfully and blatently threatening the judicial process.
      While real news of the Tory Party Conference in Manchester, with steel fences and snipers in attendance, is given no coverage in Scotland.
      If MT is just a squirrel and the Tories have some reason why they did not want the Scottish electorate to see their Conference, what is it? They must have something big they wish to hide.

      The question remains: what do these events tell us about Cameron’s political strategy leading up to the Holyrood elections in 2016?

    82. yesindyref2 says:

      OT – Trident – from the National:

      THE UK Government may bring forward the vote on Trident to before the end of this year, it was reported yesterday.

      The Tories are keen to stop next year’s Holyrood election becoming “a referendum on Trident”,

      I get it. Either:

      1. In the unlikely event of the Tories not going for Trident (which is barely possible as they’re making sure the SDSF 2015 is through before the vote), then Trident is removed as a weapon for the SNP to use, and might in theory reduce the Holyrood vote for the SNP and even increase it for the Conservatives in Scotland.

      or 2). They vote for it, and try to stampede the SNP into promising a referendum before they’re ready, because of the Trident renewal – something Sturgeon mentioned as a possible “trigger” for a referendum. That could lessen the SNP vote.

      If my off the cuff analysis is correct, then it’s a tricky one for the SNP to navigate through. On the other hand it could be just an answer to Russia + Syria, and have nothing to do with any policy towards Scotland – that’s more likely in my opinion.

      Very off the cuff.

    83. yesindyref2 says:

      OT2 – Trident
      On the other hand there are some who think the Tories really would like to get rid of Scotland for one, and if the Defence chiefs haven’t assessed the chances of Scotland becoming Independent within the next 10 years as at least 50%, then the UK is in deep doo-dah.

      So perhaps there’s a desire to stampede Scotland into Independence so they can realistically say “not worth spending £100 billion on Successor, there’ll be nowhere to put it”. And just blame Scotland. We’ve got big shoulders.

    84. Capella says:

      OT Fiona Hyslop presents plans for a federal structure to BBC to Tony Hall. BBC say they already spend £200m in Scotland. What on? Only £35m on programme making. Obviously nothing on sport.
      Illustrated by picture of glass box on Plantation Quay.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34511505

    85. manandboy says:

      Asked for his tuppence worth on the future of the BBC in Scotland, Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie said: “The BBC is trusted across the world for the quality of its broadcasting. The SNP don’t want to reform the BBC. They want to control the BBC.
      “The SNP want the lights turned off on their domestic record. That is what their war on the BBC is all about. They need to stop obsessing over what is happening at BBC Scotland and start focusing on delivering for our schools and hospitals.”

      Funny how Willie and Kez use the same scriptwriter.

    86. manandboy says:

      (From the BBC NI web page.)

      It’ll only be a matter of time before Ruthie and Willie Rennie are invited over to Belfast, to offer wise leadership to the new loyalist council. After all, Ruth and Willie know a thing or two about being left behind.

      “A new Loyalist Community Council is expected to be launched later on Tuesday with the backing of the three main loyalist paramilitary groups, the UDA, the UVF and the Red Hand Commando.
      The groups are expected to use the launch of the council to spell out their attitude to criminality, politics and educational attainment within their community.
      Tony Blair’s former chief of staff Jonathan Powell is flying in to Belfast for the launch of the initiative which is being called “Unfinished Work”.

      On Monday, the UKIP MLA David McNarry said the loyalist move had been in preparation for 18 months and had taken so long to develop because the three paramilitary organisations had needed to consult their members.

      Jonathan Powell was chief of staff to former Prime Minister Tony Blair
      He also challenged the Provisional IRA to make a similar declaration of intent.

      Mr McNarry said Mr Powell had been persuaded to get involved because he felt loyalists had been left behind.

      The loyalist paramilitary ceasefire was announced on 13 October 1994
      The launch of the council has been timed to coincide with the 21st anniversary of the loyalist ceasefire in October 1994.
      On 13 October, the UDA, UVF and Red Hand Commando announced they would “cease all operational hostilities”.
      The initiative has also been coordinated by former Ulster Unionist chair, David Campbell.”

    87. willie says:

      The Daily Record stable of newspapers may continue to publish this brutal pish but I am heartened by a number of things.

      First that there are journals to expose the lies. WOS being v one example.

      Second that people are ring through the MSM lies for what they are.

      Third is that the Daily Record same á faking through the years

      Taken together we all need to continue to keep up the good work countering the poison of the Unionist MSM. This is a battle that can and will be won.

    88. schrodingers cat says:

      if it turns out that she IS cleared, I’d say she had pretty good grounds for defamation claims against several people.

      oh good
      cant wait to see the bbc, stv, DR, in the dock, loss of earnings, damage to personal and business reputation.

      will the speaker force kezia to apologise?

      Capella
      Illustrated by picture of glass box on Plantation Quay…..the bbc did not pay for the glass box, nor do they own it, they merely pay the morgage

    89. schrodingers cat says:

      if the SG’s reforms on broadcasting were to pass, the sg might aquire PQ at knock down prices, the bbc may even need….a quick sale lol

    90. seanair says:

      Capella
      Once you pay millions for salaries to Jackie B., Glenn Campbell, Kaye, Elaenor Bradford, etc., there’s not much left.

    91. manandboy says:

      Thanks to the Westminster Establishment’s smear and fear campaign against Scotland, the dissonance between the two countries has increased greatly in the past few years.
      This can only benefit Scotland, not just because England continues to flaunt it’s true colonial colours, but it should also mean that Independence will carry little regret with it.

    92. Nana Smith says:

      O/T links

      https://fionamoraggrahame.wordpress.com/2015/10/12/alistair-carmichaelcome-in-your-time-is-up/

      http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/carmichael-questions-carmichael-answers.html?spref=tw

      http://peterabell.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/an-urgent-warning.html

      I didn’t think TTIP could get any scarier, but then I spoke to the EU official in charge of it
      With just eight words she exposed everything that’s wrong with the deal, and why it needs to be defeated

      https://archive.is/uDMlN

    93. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Robert, from my understanding the Wrights sale is not one of the 11 which Hales was investigated over. It seems to be a straight sale from Wrights to Weir with a finders fee/transaction cost going to MFPS for their help in facilitating a quick sale. There doesnt appear to be any sort of “back to back” sale involved here, which would violate the law soc rules.

      I recall a comment a few threads back where someone mentioned an article(think it was herald) where commenters BTL pointed out some of the transactions Hales was censured for occurred prior to MFPS. That might suggest the idea/scheme was not at MT’s behest.

    94. caz-m says:

      The two stories below, about the Labour Party, are from the BBC website.

      The Labour Party are on the verge of ripping themselves apart with bitter in-fighting.

      Yet BBC Scotland don’t think that is worth having any worthwhile debate about.

      “Labour to oppose budget surplus rule after U-turn”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34508959

      “Tom Watson refuses to apologise over Lord Brittan abuse claims”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34504385

      I hope someone at BBC Scotland is reading this. Do a U-turn and start reporting on things that are relevant to the Scottish public.

      BBC Scotland, stuck on “SNP Bad” mode. If it’s not got the name “Michelle Thomson” in it, then it is not worth reporting.

      Stop paying your BBC Licence fee, you are only encouraging them.

    95. manandboy says:

      Michael Gray, in particular, in The National today is a must read.

    96. Tackety Beets says:

      I meant to do a post last night but Alan Macintosh kept adding some really clear-up posts.

      With respect to others Please make a point in reading Alan’s post inc 7.57am

      If the time line you suggest there Alan , it merely accentuates the ” shit for brains” MSM we have.

      Hales will have more than MT as a client ……. Who are they ?
      the Wrights will have been fully & professionally looked after by THEIR solicitor.

      Any doubt over how the corruption plays out ?

      https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10205172620663053&pnref=story

    97. G. Campbell says:

      Eh?

      Glenn Campbell, BBC: “Michelle Thomson brokered a deal for it to be bought for £38,000 more than the sellers received.”

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZiQJQn6DZM&t=108

    98. Dorothy Devine says:

      OT ,or maybe not in the sense that nonsensical attacks on the SNP are de rigueur, they are boldly going where no truth has ever gone.

      Lloyd Quinan , who has been selected as a candidate for Holyrood , is alleged to have made the bald statement that those who voted NO were bad parents.

      In fact , and this will surprise all of you , the Herald is not quite telling the truth.

      May the meeja of Scotland rot in the cesspit of its own making.

    99. Another Union Dividend says:

      Caz-m says 8.12

      Out of the BBC’s annual income of £4000 millions a mere £100 million or so is spent in Scotland and out of that figure £70 million is spent on ”national” TV programmes like Homes under the Hammer and National Lottery game shows leaving only £30 million available for Scottish programmes.

      http://www.thenational.scot/comment/kevin-mckenna-rejected-blueprint-provides-a-glimpse-of-what-bbc-scotland-could-be.6997

      Also Iain MacWhirter on BBC https://archive.is/V3Wqn

      BBC pays around £66 million a year for English football highlights but only £1 million a year for Scottish football highlights and pays the presenters of Match of the Day more a year than they spend on Scottish football.

      Using our licence fees, in a deal with BT Sport , the BBC pays around £16 million a year to screen 16 live English FA cup ties which comes on top of £206 million to renew the Match Of The Day.

    100. Robert Roddick says:

      We can only be grateful for Stuart’s strength in continuing to be the only truly investigative journalist around.
      We must all remember that the ”news” organisation which is the subject of this report is produced for the feeble minded, and the MT vilification is simply smearing which the Unionist media intend to be associated with the SNP.

    101. Did anyone seriously expect the Record/Sunday mail to behave any differently after their hatchet job they did on Michelle Thomson?

    102. heedtracker says:

      Also Iain MacWhirter on BBC

      He’s in Graun today, woo, big time!

      “Imagine a government, eight years in office, pursued by sleaze headlines and with an indifferent record on key issues like education. You might expect such a shop-soiled administration to have some difficulty maintaining support, to be struggling just a bit. Then consider the Scottish National party, which continues to defy political logic.”

      Photo of Sturgeon, Pursued by sleaze headers, bish bosh, usual rancid Graun sneaky creepy stuff. Sleazy Sturgeon, Sturgeon Sleaze, vote SLab, writes itself for UKOK guys.

      Neo fascist Voice of the North Press and Journal letter page has huge photo of lone Scotland flag in Hampden crowd, over a letter who’s writer bemoans lack of Scotland flags at the Poland match what he attended and says its because Scotland fans are ashamed of Hope over Fear rallies.

      This democracy thing in Scotland is really stretching an awful lot of very British characters.

    103. Mac says:

      Well played fella, well played indeed…have you ever considered other online media other than twitter?

    104. Big Jock says:

      Now that the true picture is slowly emerging. I bet people like McWhirter,Hassan and McKenna feel pretty stupid for falling for the spin so easily.

      The so called big brained, big hitters believed the hype and followed the smears!

      I expect a full apology in due course from these eejits…won’t hold my breath though.

    105. Robert Peffers says:

      @manandboy says: 13 October, 2015 at 2:36 am:

      ” … While real news of the Tory Party Conference in Manchester, with steel fences and snipers in attendance, is given no coverage in Scotland.”

      Thing is, manandboy, anyone who was interested could tune into the Parliament channel as they covered the Tory Party conference live.

      Here’s the thing, the Establishment has always cynically used propaganda. Even before the printing press they had Town Criers telling only what they wanted the proles to know. Then when the only ones who could read and write were the clerics the church was the Establishment.

      However, even today, when the average person has access to the media at home and away 24/7, it is only political anoraks like us who don’t skip past the politics when it is available. That is what the Establishment find so devastating.

      They set the Indyref campaign in motion, fully confident that they would tighten their evil grip upon Scotland’s great assets and that their media wing had everything under control. What they didn’t realise was that the Lion Rampant, in the shape of the Scottish electorate, was about to awake and roar.

      The sovereign people of Scotland have now become the most politically savvy and erudite in the entire World and it is much, much harder to switch off such people after the main switch is turned on.

      The main switch, as far as I can see, was the media bias and lies. I found that people I knew as opponents of the SNP in the past could be turned on just by pointing out that the BBC, or their own choice of newspaper, were telling them lies. Just one example was enough.

      Once you were able to get their attention they could not then ignore things that had till then gone under their Radar. Once they realised they were lied to they changed sides. The Establishment created the monkey on their own back. Now they cannot stop themselves, they are hooked on propaganda, self-harming addicts of their own lying drug of choice.

    106. Marcia says:

      Journalism in Scotland these days seem to be at the level where it is akin to a school playground. ‘Miss, look what he/she said………..’ ‘I’m telling on you……..’ No wonder newspaper circulation has declined rapidly.

    107. Big Jock says:

      I agree Marcia. It’s like the canteen in an office. Full of rumour, backstabbing and outright porkies.

      Glenn Campbell is trully odious!

      Still like Galvastone though! LOL

    108. Andrew McLean says:

      This Michelle Thomson smear story, important as it is to dismiss, is just the current vehicle used to smear the SNP and the independence movement, there will be more, and more and more. The object is not to hold the party, or the Government to account, this is an unabashed propaganda war, the techniques used, the timescale and the targets all have a distinctive orchestrated smell.

      As much as this site and others knock down the false statements, they cannot compete to the mass of the main propaganda machine arraigned against them. Things are better because we have social media, Snowden and Assange have opened people’s eyes to the possibility that all they read, or that the motivations behind Government actions is not what it’s claimed to be, remember Zircon, Death of a Princess, think those days are in the past? State manipulation /control in the UK is as unaltered, as organised and as fundamental to the working of the state as it ever was.

      The only thing that’s changed is the target, that’s it is now us, the organisation whose creed is “The Defence of the Realm”, will ensure that pressure is relentless, smears will be lined up as to cause maximum damage, our only hope is the ability for the truth to out, to as many people as possible.

      In this war of Hearts and Minds, the leadership of the SNP have a unenviable task, in complaining of biased reporting they will be made to look like lunatics, after all do most people believe the authority of the BBC is unquestionable, if you were to suggest to most people the BBC is a state propaganda machine, well you know the response.

    109. Andrew McLean says:

      Robert Peffers says:9:57

      Well who’s being reading who’s mind. Or great minds think alike? 🙂

    110. Ken500 says:

      The ‘Press’ just regurgitate ‘News’. Google (or whatever) any ‘news’ and there are 6 regurgitated versions. People have to search the Internet or source the foreign Press to get any balance. Imagine tax evade non Doms owning the Press in any Democracy.They are part of the problem. Without a fair and balanced Press there is no Democracy.

    111. Natalie Hughes says:

      I haven’t really been following this story apart from seeing odd bits on the TV and internet comments but from reading the article above the bit that seems the key, to me, is where it says “Jacqueline Wright and husband Douglas agreed that Thomson’s firm could sell their flat”

      “Agreed”, as in entered into the arrangement freely and voluntarily. What prevented them from going to an estate agent and getting an independent valuation before they “agreed” to this arrangement? What prevented them from attracting a buyer willing to pay £75,000? What prevented them from putting it on an estate agent’s books and waiting until they got the asking price they wanted, and then paying the estate agent’s fees and commission that is part of selling that way? Presumably if the Wrights walked away with the full £21,000 and a £25,000 mortgage paid off they didn’t have to pay the fees to the land registry, conveyancing charges and the like. That came out of the buyers’ “profit”

      Their house was only worth £70,000 if they had someone willing to pay that sum for it. Presumably they did not. The value to Ms. Thomson’s firm who bought it was the sum they were willing to pay for it. If they didn’t like the price offered they could have declined the offer and sold elsewhere. The property only became worth £70,000 because the company who bought it, unlike the vendor, had the resources to find a buyer willing to pay that sum. It is like sticking your antique vase on ebay with a buy it now price and then complaining that another one like it sold at an auction house for more money. It is the trade off you make for having the money in your hand now or taking the risk of not getting the sale or the price you want.

      Not long ago I sold my house and would have liked to have got a quick sale as there was one I really wanted on the market very cheaply at the time. I looked at companies like this, who would buy your house instantly, and they made no bones about the fact that their offer would, as a maximum, be no more than 70-80% of the market value and could be much less depending on the type of property, location and condition. The trade off is that you got a quick sale that you may not be able to get with an estate agent. In my case the sums offered were not enough to buy the house I wanted anyway but it took almost three years and a reduction in the asking price to get the sale through the estate agent.

      I am not in any position to judge on allegations of possible mortgage fraud but the media hype over “exploiting vulnerable people” is nonsensical in the extreme.

    112. Bob Mack says:

      The State can have as much propoganda as it wants. The thing is that myself and many like me, no longer take their scribblings as authoratative. The days are gone when I absorb what I read as fact.

      This is in part thanks to the Rev,but also in part to my fellow Scots who are no longer as easily manipulated as they once were (like myself).

      We have a voice.the ability to reason,and a belief in a notion greater than ourselves i.e. independence. I laugh when some unionists try to diminish belief in the SNP as a vehicle to diminish the desire for independence,

      The SNP are now only the flag bearer on the latest battleground, and should they fall the flag will be lifted and carried by another at some point.

      You cannot kill a desire to be free with words any more.It will happen. Like Mandela, sometimes yesterdays anti state terrorist becomes tomorrows freedom fighter and can be seen in a different light.

    113. Andrew McLean at 10.17am.
      Very well put Andrew. Of course, as most of us on independence supporting websites such as this are only too well aware, the establishment will literally stop at nothing in order to protect their interests.
      Sure, the M.S.M will do all they can to try to derail the independence bandwagon, but, as I have pointed out before, it ain’t working. On the doorsteps, while we might not be making much in the way of inroads into the tory vote, more and more former Labour voters are very unforgiving of their M.P/M.S.P/councillors, standing on the same platform as the unionists during the referendum campaign.
      So while I agree the attempted lies and smears will continue unabated. it remains to be seen how much effect it will have on the voting intentions of the electorate come next May.

    114. Robert Peffers says:

      Just read a BBC text news item. Headed – “The Science Behind Hallucinations”.

      Scientists at Cardiff University believe they can help explain why some people are prone to hallucinations. Researchers worked with colleagues at the University of Cambridge to Study the predictive nature of the brain.

      They looked at the idea that Hallucinations happen due to the brain’s tendency to interpret the world using prior knowledge and predictions. The study examined whether the brain creating this image of the world contributes to people’s psychosis.

      (My emphasis above)

      Now just how many hallucinating brainwashed Unionist and Establishment figures do we know who fit that description? It really does describe exactly how brainwashing by the media works for the unwary not to mention how it creates the serial liars of the Better Together type.

    115. Onwards says:

      Capella says:
      13 October, 2015 at 6:10 am
      OT Fiona Hyslop presents plans for a federal structure to BBC to Tony Hall. BBC say they already spend £200m in Scotland. What on? Only £35m on programme making. Obviously nothing on sport..

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34511505

      “We recognise that there is audience demand for greater representation and portrayal of Scottish audiences on all BBC services and set out our ambition to achieve this in our proposals for the BBC in the year ahead, including improved news, education and online services.
      “The BBC’s funding has now been set for the next five years and this will mean cuts across the BBC – we will have to balance our investment on pan-UK services with dedicated services in the nations. We will aim to protect spending in the nations so that content investment is cut less than in other parts of the BBC”
      _____

      Going by that quote, the chances of getting a real BBC Scotland TV channel are non-existant.
      The only chance is if the Scottish Government offer to chip in directly to supplement the licence fee.

      Personally I think they should. £14m goes towards BBC Alba.
      Nothing against Gaelic speakers, but why not for mainstream viewers also?

      The BBC resistance to a normal Scottish public TV channel, not just a limited opt-out service is obviously political. They will never keep enough of our licence fee here to enable that.
      So why not remove the financial excuse.?
      Once established there will be more pressure to keep more licence fee money here.

    116. heedtracker says:

      BBC isn’t owned by tax evading non Doms is it? British press and broadcast media is stuffed to the gunnels with tory right wingers. Neo fascist Voice of the North Press and Journal for example, farted toryboy’s Mike Gove and Jim Vote NO vote UKIP or else Naughty into the UKOK stratosphere.

      Mike Gove, UKOK toryboy education minister, Mike gets a free private school education all paid for by charity, Gordons College in Aberdeen around £20k a year, Oxbridge grad all for free, certainly no student debt, far right P&J hires him, then BBC ofcourse, then Tory MP and oor Mike makes his fortune destroying everything that he took for UKOK granted as a happy little private school boy in Aberdeen.

      Its the teamGB way and you can do this til your broadband wears out. Cherie Blair got a first at LSE, then law post grad, all free, first thing Bomber Bliar does after 97, scrap all female higher ed finance funding, what Mrs Bomber Bliar took for granted, because Bliar, Brown, the Flipper are such amazing lefties, you see.

    117. And while it’s great work by Stuart to debunk the media “stories”, I can reveal that I was canvassing last weekend within a few hundred yards of the locus of the “Michelle Thomson house”, and not one word, question or otherwise, was uttered about the matter. So there.

    118. Andrew McLean says:

      Alex
      A week is a long time in politics, my fear is that as personalities change, and time progresses, that the disgust felt with labour will continue to wane. That coupled with the relentless mud slinging of the corporate media will steal support.

      To combat this problem the tactics used will have to adapt, being on the defensive continually cannot continue, I would suggest it’s time soon to take the battle to the enemy.

    119. Bob Mack says:

      BBC should be pay for view,with charges for each serviceie science,news etc balanced out to reflect what a normal viewer would have received in broadcasting over the year
      Lets see how long they last.

    120. Bob Mack says:

      @Andrew McLean.

      The enemy are taking the battle to themselves. The tactics they are using are those of the suicide bomber.They try to inflict damage on the enemy but blow themselves up in the process. Hatred ,resentment ,and a feeling of being disenfranchised is a powerful mix to handle, and is ultimately destroying them from the inside.

      Everyone I know, no longer believes anything printed, broadcast or mouthed by the unionists Parties. They are embarked on a ship of self destruction.

      Our most powerful weapon is the ability to debunk their rubbish,just as the Rev does on this site.

      Withold your anger and pick up the facts.We will disarm them.

    121. Dr Jim says:

      @Rock

      Hi Rock, I think maybe you’ve gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick if you feel the majority of Scotland is Socialist, I don’t think it is mate

      I would describe Scotland as (conservative)with a small c but with a spirit of generosity which is what is generally ascribed to the left but (Canny) at the same time,and we don’t care much for stupidity

      Which for the most part I think puts us on the political spectrum of, what I would call a new politics which I think we’ve always been but we didn’t have a vehicle for it in the past

      We like stuff to be fair, and we like our politicos to be up front and honest with us, look at what’s happening now with Michelle Thomson, whichever point of view you may have had in the past Labour, Lib, Socialist if you’re part of the YES movement you’re defending Ms Thomson like mad

      Who ever heard of the electorate being so defensive of a politician before and fighting on her behalf, it’s unheard of, and that’s what makes me certain everything has changed to a new approach, I don’t know what Label you would put on it but whatever it’s called it feels new

    122. Grouse Beater says:

      Love the way Labour has done a U-Turn on opposing the Tory’s fiscal rules. True to habit Labour has no credible alternative to Tory policies. And no leadership at all.

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/10/10/unelected-rule/

    123. Big Jock says:

      Gotta love MSM- Daily feed of clutching at straws smears. Wonder what tomorrow will bring:

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13842416.Ex_weatherman_who_said_No_voters_were_bad_parents_chosen_as_SNP_Holyrood_candidate/

    124. Robert Peffers says:

      @Andrew McLean says: 13 October, 2015 at 10:17 am:

      ” … As much as this site and others knock down the false statements, they cannot compete to the mass of the main propaganda machine arraigned against them.”

      I beg to differ, Andrew, for in spite of the unremitting onslaught we suffered throughout the referendum campaign the swingometer has continued to swing towards support for independence.

      I’ve already touched upon the reason for this swing. It only needs a campaigner to draw the attention of a Unionist supporter to one of the more blatant propaganda tricks, with the notion that the media is deliberately brainwashing them, for the germ of a doubt to grow in the unionist’s psych.

      Thereafter, in spite of themselves, they pay closer attention to the media and the scales drop from their eyes. This is the chink in the Establishment’s propaganda armour. As it starts to fail they only have two moves left to make.

      As their previously unnoticed propaganda begins to fail they must either stop the lies or they must ramp up the attacks by ever more unlikely lies.

      In either case their propaganda gets highlighted for what it is/was. As soon as the victim’s attention is drawn to it the game is up for the propagandist and as we can see the swingometer swings away from the propagandist.

      No one but clowns, (and Scottish Labour political lapdogs), enjoy being made fools of.

    125. Big Jock says:

      Andrew says:”I would suggest it’s time soon to take the battle to the enemy.”

      Kind of agree Andrew…but as the old saying goes:” Why interupt your enemy when they are making mistakes”. SNP support has risen over the last 8 years of smearing, by the SNP not resorting to their methods. The stay calm approach seems to be a winning strategy.

      The only folk who buy this stuff are the already anti Scotland/SNP brigade. They want to believe that’s the important part! The ill informed will always be thus because they have no wish to be informed.

    126. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Dr Jim at 11.08

      If I could echo you comments. I live in a fairly typical area of rural Scotland. It doesn’t vote Tory. But try to tell them they are Labour or “socialists”. No chance

      Though there is a very large and committed socialist presence in Scotland (and good luck to it)Scotland is not a socialist country. I like to describe the prevailing political sentiment in Scotland as communalism. “Fairness” is the major component of that, not dogmatic anti capitalism.

    127. Andrew McLean says:

      Big Jock, Robert, Alex.

      Maybe I am wrong but I feel the pressure is being ramped up,I wish I could print the weekly round up of this blog and hand deliver it into every household in Scotland!

    128. Capella says:

      Dr Udo Ulfkotte spells out how journalists are corrupted into serving the interests of mutinational corporations. Hope he fares well, he’s a very brave man.
      @ Tackety Beets link above
      https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10205172620663053&pnref=story

      Other Atlanticists are Douglas Alexander and James Naughtie. Which may well explain much of the bias poured out daily by our politicians and broadcasters.

      http://powerbase.info/index.php/British_American_Project#Members

    129. Onwards says:

      Bob Mack says:
      13 October, 2015 at 10:53 am

      “BBC should be pay for view,with charges for each service ie science,news etc balanced out to reflect what a normal viewer would have received in broadcasting over the year. Lets see how long they last.”
      ———–

      I think there is a valid argument for a public TV service, but it makes sense if it is simply funded from general taxation, not the extra tax of the licence fee.

      Public TV allows representation to minority groups and niche interests, the convenience of no adverts, and can invest in the local creative economy, and also help to boost the country’s profile around the world.

      Problem is that Scotland is completely under-represented compared to similar European nations.

      A limited ‘opt-out’ BBC Scotland is pathetic.

      And it’s not as if there isn’t enough content to fill the channel with. Reality type shows, chat shows and documentaries are relatively cheap to produce, as is live comedy and music.

      Leaving aside any politics, it’s mostly about added choice.

      And if the Scottish government was chipping in directly, there would be increased pressure for a genuine federal type structure.

    130. Dan Huil says:

      Radical land reform is needed. Scotland’s land for Scotland’s people.

    131. Big Jock says:

      I would say Scotland is a Social Democratic nation. Somewhere between Sweden and Germany politically. Room for everyone! Very few hardcore right wingers,maybe only 12-14%. Most are in the middle about 50% and the rest left wing maybe 30-35% proper socialist left wingers.

      I think we just need to let the MSM carry on with their mince. We are never going to get a fair hearing. BBC is a London TV station and the papers are all owned by millionaires in England and abroad.

      Even so called decent guys like McWhirter and Mckenna don’t get us. They fall into line when required. The future is social media. But then 68% of under 35s are SNP, so that is the social media revolutionists.

    132. Dr Jim says:

      Has anybody seen any “Actual” news in any of the periodicals today
      Every time I try to find something that hopefully resembles news up pops somebody like McWhirter talking absolute infantile bollox
      Now he’s telling us he’s smarter than John Swinney, well that’s just taking it too far now, if he’s smarter than the DFM then I’m defo running for President of Europe

      It can’t be all of them are this thick (can it?)

    133. caz-m says:

      Another Union Dividend

      Re: What English football gets spent on it by the BBC and what Scottish football gets spent on it.

      I have heard that Gary Lineker gets paid more per year than what Scottish football gets invested in it for the same period.

      They obviously think that one ENGLISH presenter is more important to them than the whole SCOTTISH nation.

    134. caz-m says:

      C’mon guys,

      Stop saying that BBC Scotland didn’t discuss the latest Tory Party Conference.

      I witnessed it for myself, Shereen Nanjiani discussed it on her Radio show at 10.10am on Saturday morning.

      It’s a start, is it not?

    135. Glamaig says:

      Also O/T sorry, but in Berlin at the weekend there were 250,000 people protesting against TTIP according to RT. I happened to be on the phone to a friend in Germany who confirmed it.

      Did anyone see or hear BBC coverage of it? I didn’t but I just listen to the odd news bulletin so may have missed it.

    136. Fred says:

      In this & many other issues, where would we be without Wings!

    137. Grouse Beater says:

      Am trying to catch up on Professor Tom Devine’s latest history of Scotland books … and they’re all paperbacks.

      Impossible for a 700 page paperback to survive use as a reference book. Soon as you bend back its spine pages fall out. Another Union dividend.

    138. Lochside says:

      @ Robert Louis raises the question of the business suicide model employed by the msm in Scotland. One whereby they collectively have continued to attack the political beliefs of 50%+ of the Scottish population.

      The question being why?…when it’s obviously financial suicide…the answer being that their owners have a financial interest via British government inducements to do so. Murdoch and co. have tentacles in every direction within the British establishment. Witness Coulson and Brooks’ immunity from full prosecution.

      Only when it’s no longer possible to hide the truth..they find a judas goat…a Saville….a lower class dead scapegoat who no longer can directly implicate them in the evil committed.

      @ Nana Smith’s links,many of which point to this collusion..the latest attack on Tom Watson, by politicians, newspapers and tv is organised and concerted in its nature. Anyone watching John Snow on Channel 4 news disgraceful hectoring of Watson to ‘apologise’ to Leon Brittain’s family could see the transparency of the British State protecting its own depraved elite.

      For God’s sake..The irony of a pig-fucking Premier leading a chorus of shameless apologists for upper class child abusers goes beyond any absurd parody of conspiracy theory!

      This is reality people. We are governed by an evil elite protected by Government, law and police immune from prosecution..free to abuse, lie and cheat by an unregulated system of power protected by a yellow press and msm of paid jackals and pimps.

      They are knowingly lying to us and will do everything in their power to stop us. Unless we get the full truth of this out to the rest of Scotland, we will remain under their malign control and thousands of innocents will continue to suffer.

    139. Another Union Dividend says:

      @ Big Jock says:

      Macwhirter is right when he says transferring some Welfare costs is a fiscal trap when Scottish government only has limited Income Tax powers and not the full fiscal autonomy.

      The cost of welfare is being transferred from the UK to Scotland. The Scottish Government will have to increase taxes significantly if it is to meet its promises about creating a more caring society.

      Raising the higher rate of income tax to 50% is fine but Scotland won’t have any powers tackle tax avoidance by the better off and under Scotland Bill the 20p tax rate for the lower paid would also have to be increased by a similar amount.

      Read more by Jim and Margaret Cuthbert at

      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/01/25/pivotal-failure-in-camerons-proposals-on-smith/

    140. Bob Mack says:

      Ms Thomson is crucified without trial.

      Tory mandarins are exonerated from sexual abuse allegations without trial, and are now being held up as shining lights who should be beatified.

      Some COE archbishop is shielded from retribution for sexual misconduct by politicians and Royals preventing it initially going to trial

      Life in the UK ?

    141. Dr Jim says:

      Good to see Ian Murray being “very clear” on Osbornes Fiscal Charter…he he he he

    142. Andy Saltoun says:

      The way to make your point is to tell the truth about Labour in England in ways that get noticed in England and cause such damage to the Labour brand there that they back off.

    143. caz-m says:

      I was going to post the video of BBC Scotland’s Glen Campbell (creepy bastard) crawling out from under a rock to frighten the life out of Michelle Thomson when she was on her way to her weekly surgery, on Friday 9th Oct.

      But for some reason, they have removed that particular edition of Reporting Scotland from the BBC IPlayer.

      “This edition is not currently available.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06fp7w0

    144. Capella says:

      Robust defence of child abuse inquiry by Tom Watson in HoC yesterday.
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34504385

    145. Effijy says:

      Could we crowd fund an “advert” in the Sunday Redcoat
      that simply repeats the Rev’s research and shows just how far the Editor of that Rag will go to distort and mask the truth in order to make up any old SNP Bad story?

      Would they have the right to reject a paid for Ad that only contains truthful and irrefutable information?

      IPSO is another arm of Westminster can do whatever they like with Plebe Info. Walk on. Nothing to see here.

    146. Bob Mack says:

      Loved the story in the Graun re Jockestan.

      Quite acceptable “in context”.

      Perhaps we need a new name for Scots given that the press watchdogs consider it acceptable for Scotland to be given a colonial pet name for the country in which we live.

    147. Big Jock says:

      Another Union Dividend –

      Agreed with McWhirter on the tax trap. That’s why Swinney wouldn’t agree the transfer without changes to the mechanism. It’s a ploy by unionists to put Scotland in a worse position after the transfer.

      For Joe public it looks like SNP incompetence, if the economic situation gets worse instead of better. Joe (ill informed public) thinks hang on you were given more power and screwed it up. If you don’t understand the technical tax process then you don’t understand the trap that was set to fail.

      The unionists rely on the public being ill informed, or their eyes glazing over at the thought process.

    148. Nana Smith says:

      @Lochside

      ‘Collusion’ that’s the very word.

      I watched the Snow interview open mouthed. His tone and attacking style quesioning of Tom Watson was just awful. The repeated ‘should you not apologise’ attempt to brain wash the public into believing an apology was required.

      Just shows how utterly crap and corrupt the British media are when it takes an Aussie programme 60mins to air some truths.

      I do wonder how many people are believing the establishment lies, and after all the smearing of Michelle Thomson it will be interesting to see if there has been an increase in snp members.

    149. Dave the Profiteering Squirrel says:

      Still don’t get the point of the whole piece.

      If a real estate company can’t make a profit on a property, then they’re a shitty real estate company.

      It seems like the entire press has suddenly decided that it doesn’t like free market capitalism any more.

      Well, how dare they print ink on paper and sell it on for profit. I don’t know how these people sleep at night.

    150. Angra Mainyu says:

      How come Iain MacWhirter is suddenly reviled by so many in here? I’m sure in the run up to the referendum he was seen as somebody who was on the Yes side or at least impartial (the same thing in context).

      Don’t get me wrong, I can’t stand the self-aggrandising, middle-class prick and never could. I’m just puzzled that so many seem to have changed their tune on him…

    151. Sinky says:

      Dr Jim at 12.55

      “Its very clear” Ian Murray was backing George Osborne’s Fiscal (austerity) Charter when interviewed on TV by Gordon Brewer at recent Labour Conference.

      Labour’s plans to outflank the SNP as the natural party of social justice were fatally damaged on 26 March 2014 when Scottish Labour MPs including Ian Murray voted in favour of further Tory welfare cuts.

      On 13 January 2015 Ian Murray voted with the Tories for a further £13.5 billion worth of cuts to the Scottish government’s budget over the next five years.

      Labour’s last MP from Scotland, Ian Murray, abstained on 20th July rather than vote against the latest round of Tory welfare cuts particularly as 67,000 disabled people in Scotland will lose up to £1500 a year under the Tory benefit caps.

    152. Capella says:

      @ Bob Mack
      So glad that the Ofcom watchdogs consider “Jockistan” acceptable in the context. Even though we’ve been repeatedly told that Ofcom has no jurisdiction over the BBC.
      We can look forward to the BBC renaming the countries of the UK in the interest of fairness and balance:
      Taffistan = Wales
      Paddistan = Ireland
      Prodistan = NI

      Can’t think of a suitable pet name for England.

      That should improve relations.
      Irony emoticon thingy!

    153. Nana Smith says:

      O/T links

      Callum McCaig Interview: Worst Thing About Parliament? ‘The Tories. Is That Acceptable?
      https://archive.is/VpeB4

      Ah just what we need, more unelected lords while parents go hungry in order to feed their children…

      https://www.politicshome.com/party-politics/articles/story/big-issue-founder-given-seat-house-lords

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-12/verrender-weve-been-sold-out-by-the-tpp-sham/6845348

    154. heedtracker says:

      More jaw dropping BBC vote SLab Scotland propaganda lunchtime tv news there, with the Westminster Labour shambolic fiscal U turn presented by the creep show as a wonderful triumph for Kezia D because she talked to JC about it at the weekend.

      Same creep show follow that appalling display, with very weird advertorial for Scottish police on M8. Considering how BBC have monstered the Scottish police like you must vote SLab to save their Scotland region from the worst police force ever under SNP Scots.gov, its just another day of BBC dire attempt at manipulating how we think and vote.

    155. Bob Mack says:

      @capella,
      In keeping with their outlook how about Sahibistan

    156. Capella says:

      Subtle!

    157. Capella says:

      Don’t ever complain about the BBC news again! Angry reporter.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syjp9lsWBhc

    158. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @caz-m,
      1.02pm

      Ah the editing of BBC iplayer – I think you will find that is down to the “geo-caching problem”.

      It is funny how certain clips (favourable to Indyref) are not avaible whereas normally they are up and running immediately or within an hour or two.

      Geo-caching – maybe BBC think we are a different country already! 🙂

    159. McBoxheid says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      12 October, 2015 at 9:11 pm

      I quite like this game. All I need, it seems, is to find someone willing to stake me £21,000 and I can make a cool £9,000 same day.

      I just need to lend the Sunday Mail £21,000 and they will repay me a similar-sized £30,000 the same day. Halvers anyone with the stake money?

      Or you’d get 12K back, it’s similar enough in the other direction and a name like yesindyref2 would make them more than generous…To themselves.

    160. heedtracker says:

      How come Iain MacWhirter is suddenly reviled by so many in here?

      Maybe his thing in rancid The Graun today and stuff like this?

      “The SNP has been under a cloud recently in Scotland following the resignation of its business spokeswoman, Michelle Thomson, over revelations about her property speculation. There have been accusations of cronyism in the awarding of state funds to the organisers of the T in the Park pop festival.

      The SNP should be wide open to challenge from the left: by its own admission it has failed to address key issues like the educational attainment gap between rich and poor. According to Oxfam, wealth inequality appears on some measures to be increasing faster in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. A raft of prominent yes supporters, like the writer Gerry Hassan, have been attacking the SNP’s very claim to be the party of the left”

      Fair enough he knows his market but bigger picture time- why has SNP Scots.gov NOT solved all the nightmare problems in Scotland today, after SLabour’s 70+ years of right to reign over their Scotland region finally coming to an end, a permanent end hopefully?

      Scottish councils ruled by SLab also not mentioned in the above MacWhirter blast at SNP Scots.gov.

      Funny that?

    161. Bob Mack says:

      @heedtracker,

      Indeed, considering the amount of interaction in daily life the Councils actually have responsibility for,it is surprising they are not under much closer scrutiny than even the Scottish Government.
      However I think we all know the reason.
      The hacks phone list of top Labour insiders is much shorter than it was,so I suppose they try to maintain those that are left for the “inside” stories they need to exist.

      Alternately they could do what the rest of the media do,
      MAKE IT UP.

    162. yesindyref2 says:

      The only thing wrong with McWhirter’s article I just read is this: “(trap) and yesterday it looked as if John Swinney had fallen into it.”

      It’s a non-sequitur. Swinney has no control over Westminster’s handling of tax credits, so he can hardly fall into a trap.

    163. Helena Brown says:

      Heedtracker I gave up on Ian McWhirter a long time ago, the man swings with the wind, one day he is all about what a good job the SNP are doing and how everything is hunky dory then he swings the other way. Do not get me wrong criticism is fine and every government benefits from it but both he and Ian Bell make an industry out of being unable to decide which side they belong on. Sorry it is either Scotland or the UK, you cannot be both.

    164. Dr Jim says:

      @ Sinky You know I was being Ironic though

    165. Valerie says:

      Off topic
      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/10/13/a-response-to-rises-water-report/

      Make this your go to piece for any remaining smears about water. An excellent and evidenced analysis, that covers all the questions and accusations.

    166. Dr Jim says:

      The day John Swinney falls into a Westminster trap is the day I’ll give up my membership

      Huv ye met John Swinney this man’s mind could model for

      Wilkinsons Sword Blades

    167. galamcennalath says:

      Re Trap. Nicola said on Sunday that the Scotland Bill had a long way to go. I took that to be another none too veiled message that what the Tories have suggested so far is unacceptable.

      The ball is still in Cameron’s court. To quote Dirty Harry perhaps, “are you feeling lucky punk?”

      If the final delivered setup is, as often suggested, a poisoned chalice to damage the SNP and the Scottish Government then it will be rejected by the SG. That will be an unprecedented event.

      All the SNP needs is a majority in May. The imperialists are almost certainly hoping to deny us that majority. They are certainly working to that end!

      We need to make sure there is a comfortable majority, then Cameron will have to dance to the piper or pay the consequences.

    168. Valerie says:

      Debate on 2nd reading of Immigration Bill in HoC, seeing lots of SNP making lots of spirited arguments against progressing the Bill as put by Tories

    169. Tackety Beets says:

      Dr Jim @ 3.12

      Ref JS , I remember being quite pleased when he was voted leader @ Inverness all those years ago.
      Sadly my slight reservation on his leadership ability became apparent as he just did not quite carry the banner , least not as I had wished. Don’t get me wrong he did a good job, I may have expected too much.
      I now believe he was not quite ready or perhalps it was not his “bag”

      JS has matured into one of the best politicians in the UK , IMHO is up there with the best of them.

      He deserves every accolade going as many would have disappeared off the scene after a term as leader.

    170. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      When I started posting about the Ref in Jan 2012 in the Grun, I went through the likes of GERS, the Scottish economy, block grant, consequentials, revenues and expenditure, and got my own picture of how it all went together. Refreshing and updating my memory really as I’d done some of that during the National Conversation back in 2007/8. Then I looked at what Swinney was doing, read up reports from the then CPPR about the budgets and I couldn’t fault him. I’m very critical and I would have if I could have.

      In Sep last year after the ref I suggested to the SNP (my MSP) that the SNP should take ownership of Devo-Max / FFA as nobody else had, and describe it in their Smith submission, and warned them about the traps of powers versus revenues. Sounds a bit cheeky to do that, but why take chances? They were already on top of it, and aware of the traps.

      Swinney’s very competent, and he’s not the only one. Independent Scotland’s economy would be in totally safe hands.

      I would guess McWhirter’s pieces are more for consumption by unionists than nats! Criticising or appearing to criticise Swinney makes the traps real, rather than being a “Nats blame Westminster” type of thing. Perhaps.

    171. sensibledave says:

      … I can’t believe this subject is keeping going – and that so many people are missing the point.

      Based upon what we have seen so far Ms Thomson doesn’t seem to have done anything illegal, that seems pretty much agreed by all so far – but that is not the point, and those that are too dumb to understand that really need to wise up.

      It is not illegal to run a an event where all profits go to charity, say. However, if the event raises £10,000 and I, as the organiser, charge the event £9,999 for the two hours I worked organising the event leaving £1 profit that I give to the charity (thus honouring the all profits go to charity pledge) – is that moral and ethical? No it is not!

      For MPs and MSPs, the test is not whether it was illegal – it is about the sort of business they are doing and their business’s morals and ethics – as judged by the populace.

      Profiteering (i.e. making excess profits in a given situation) is the point at issue here. Does the SNP want an MP or MSP representing them that is involved in the type of sordid, grubby transactions where relatively poor people, in deep financial difficulty, are preyed upon by very capable, knowledgeable and rich people to make a fast, fat, and legal, buck?

      NO they don’t – and they have acted accordingly. They have doen the right thing.

      Why are so many here finding this difficult to understand?

    172. gerry parker says:

      Capella.

      Piggistan?

    173. heedtracker says:

      MacWhirter has to pay the rent and there’s loads of UKOk cash for carpet baggers ready to save teamGB.

      The only way out of poverty is good jobs and the only way Holyrood can bring good jobs to Scotland is with Devo-Max, which they are never going to get from the 600 English MP’s what decide what’s best for England.

      But they do have the crushing they hope weight of their BBC and press all stuffed with tories to convince us their Devo Max The Vow shyste, is not in fact a giant shyste. So , as we now know, Smith commison tax devo is only there to fcuk the Scottish economy as hard as possible so that you and I will all turn on the SNP and vote SLabour the UK will save scrounged Scots, forever and ever, amen.

      We know all this because future Tory FM of Scotland prof Tonkins of Glasgow uni lays it all clearly out in his long dreary blog of UKOK misery, Notes from North Briton, via Slovenia.

      Prof Smirky also helped concoct Smith Tax devo mantrap for Scotland, so now doubt his future reign over his Scotland region will be a triumph of rule Britannia goodness.

    174. caz-m says:

      Valerie 3pm

      “Make this your go to piece for any remaining smears about water.”

      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/10/13/a-response-to-rises-water-report/

      Excellent link Valeria.

    175. liz says:

      What is wrong with Iain McWhirter?

      This is complete nonsense.

      https://twitter.com/iainmacwhirter/status/653938846451826688

    176. Dr Jim says:

      @ Tackety Beets @ Sinky

      The only thing the money man’s not been the best at is the Front Man stuff, the slick talking part

      But that’s not a job that’s suited to everyone which is kinda lucky for us in a way because he’s a Wiz with the Cash

      I’m one of those in the (much respect camp) for Mr Swinney + I love it when he goes into one at FMQs he’s hilarious

    177. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave.
      True to character
      You appear to know more than the police at this stage as is your usual
      Go home.

    178. Dr Jim says:

      McWhirter

      See what I mean,the man’s a Diddy to use an old Scottish expression

      Everything passeth his understanding

    179. Bob Mack says:

      Crikey,it is a bad day when a dyed in the wool Toryboy tries to give lectures on ethics and morality,then puts an x in the box to elect a Tory Government.

    180. caz-m says:

      liz 3.48pm
      “What is wrong with Iain McWhirter?”

      Did McWhirter not once grace the corridors of BBC Scotland?

      I think they forgot to take the Unionist chip out of his brain when he left.

      His controllers are buried deep inside Plantation Quay.

      They have total control over all his thoughts.

      So don’t blame Ian, blame his masters.

      I actually think he is trying to get his auld joab back.

      Don’t be surprised if you see McWhirter back presenting Reporting Scotland in the not too distant future.

    181. heedtracker says:

      2nd attempt, not with ios9

      heedtracker says:
      13 October, 2015 at 3:47 pm
      MacWhirter has to pay the rent and there’s loads of UKOk cash for carpet baggers ready to save teamGB.

      The only way out of poverty is good jobs and the only way Holyrood can bring good jobs to Scotland is with Devo-Max, which they are never going to get from the 600 English MP’s that decide what’s best for England.

      But they do have the crushing, they hope, weight of their BBC and press all stuffed with tories to convince us their Devo Max The Vow shyste, is not in fact a giant shyste.

      So, as we now know, Smith commission tax devo is only there to fcuk the Scottish economy as hard as possible so that you and I will all turn on the SNP, vote SLabour and the UK will save scrounger Scots, forever and ever, amen.

      We know all this because future Tory FM of Scotland prof Tomkins of Glasgow uni lays it all clearly out in his long dreary blog of UKOK misery, Notes from North Briton, via Slovenia.

      Prof Smirky also helped concoct Smith Tax devo man/beartrap for Scotland, so now doubt his future reign over his Scotland region will be a triumph of rule Britannia goodness.

      Prof Tomkins explains himself what his Smith Commission Devo Max actually is and a lot better than me too

      https://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/author/conlawforum/

      “Moreover, well before 2021 the new tax and welfare powers agreed by the Smith Commission and currently being legislated for in the Scotland Bill will be fully in force.

      Mr Swinney made a complete hash of the first tax devolved to him (stamp duty) and, when he takes charge of income tax in Scotland, which he soon will, his job will get a whole lot harder. Especially when he has a Cabinet Secretary for Welfare urging him radically to increase spending on social security provision in Scotland.”

      Swinney’s jobs going to get a whole lot harder, Scotland. That’s what Prof Smirky etc have done with the Vow.

    182. manandboy says:

      Scotland’s political priorities: Democracy or Lobbying

      http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2015/10/13/holyrood-exposed/

      http://static1.squarespace.com/static/56057a6fe4b0ba7911a449d6/t/561982a6e4b01839b1bbc5a3/1444512422921/Scottish_Lobbying_Guide.pdf

      Imagine you go to an important meeting on a subject involving tens of thousands of people, at the end of which there is a democratic vote which favours the vast majority of the people. That’s democracy.
      But supposing, before or after the vote, a group of local businessmen meet privately with the Office holders at the above meeting and persuade the Officers, by whatever means, to set the vote aside in favour of different proposals made by the businessmen.
      That’s lobbying.

      Holyrood is swarming with Lobbyists apparently. It’s depressing.

      It would be easy to come to the opinion that an independent Scotland would have a parliamentary set up very similar to what already exists at Westminster, complete with our own immovable and deeply entrenched Scottish Establishment.

      A Democratic Socialist Independent Scotland? We’ll have to fight tooth and nail for that – after Independence.

      And even then, the energy behemoth called Ineos, will be waiting for us with a list of the things we have to do – or else.

    183. Fireproofjim says:

      John Swiinney
      I agree with earlier posts.
      The man is as sharp as a tack and has all the economic skills needed to keep out of any Westminster traps. The quiet assassin when it suits him, but a great team player with Nicola.

    184. Tackety Beets says:

      Dr Jim @ 3.55

      Totally agree.

      S@@@Dave ,

      Totally disagree.
      I’m well to the right of many here.Im self employed and an employer. I too have a wee MT type Propery portfolio but yet I struggle to agree with your posts.
      FYI , I agree with most on here.

      Sell – cost = Profit less cost to achieve the sale !

      I employ engineers who are paid a bit more than the living wage but they charges their time out @ circa 4 or 5 times their hourly rate , aye right call me whatever . Eh hang on laddie , he needs phone / PC / b’band, training , vehicle , tools , scope, sig genie , cross hatch , workshop bench etc etc etc . These are costs !
      Oh an effing AVG to keep oot Malaware ! Mmmm a fimiliar term ?

      Call it WTF you like !

      I still think I would earn as much @ a supermarket check out.

      Hard work is no easy, an easy work is hard to find !

    185. liz says:

      @heedtracker – yes I saw your 1st post after posting mine.

      I do think JS and NS are aware it’s a trap and they will have to think how best to deal with it.

      I’m sure NS said, they will accept no plans which cause disadvantage to the Scottish people.

      Remember they never used the tax raising powers which could only be used to raise base rate.

      What will happen however as we know, corporate media will come down like a ton of bricks – you wanted more powers, so use them etc.

      SNP media centre will be working 24/7 to try to get message out.

      This is why is annoys the hell out of me that the ‘left’ are trying to put a spanner in the works as if we haven’t got enough enemies.

    186. The Isolator says:

      The MT affair is about to explode in the Unionista faces..big time.

      The reporting to the parliamentery standards committee was a trap laid by the SNP 56.That’s why they set it out there to reach the inevitable conclusion that it could not investigate it further.The fact that it came from the Government back benches was a bonus.

      Question for not so sensible Dave.What comes after tit for?

    187. Lochside says:

      The problem with McWhirter is the same for all people in Scotland who work for state or private UK owned organisations….which applies to a majority.

      It’s called having a secure job.

      Speak out against the UK orthodoxy and expect possible dismissal or pressure to desist from your employer. This pressure was displayed throughout the Referendum by the Banks, Insurance companies, so-called ‘Scottish’ based businesses.

      Consider blatant attempts to suppress Prof John Robertson’s BBC Bias report by the BBC overtly and to get him sacked and his book deal blocked. Witness G.A.Ponsonby’s excellent expose of the same organisation which also received no coverage except within social media such as on this site.

      Rev’s ‘WBB’ relied on a resilient and strong exiled individual with the talent and belief to energise thousands of foot soldiers to fund and distribute copies to hundreds of thousands of voters.

      I believe this increased the ‘YES’ vote more than any other aspect.

      However, here in ‘Jockistan’ we have a creepit coorin’ colonial crowd of fearties in the media and predominantly in other major institutions such as Church, Business, Law, and Education except for a few significant and brave exceptions.

      We can only expect clear unbroken honest narratives from the social media and the SNP in regard to our nation and its struggle against Imperial UK.

      Our challenge is how to get that truth out to the remaining ‘NO’ crowd and discredit all the ‘toon clocks’ like McWhirter.

    188. Big Jock says:

      I think that clears things up. Ian McWhirter has lost the plot. He sounds like Jim Murphy. If us amateurs can work out that all the SNP have done is moved the admin of Scottish Water to Anglian. Why with all his insight ,can he not work it out. 97% of water in hospitals will be Scottish Water after and before the change.

      The rules on fair competition were agreed by the Labour/Lib coalition. This is law! SNP cannot give it to SW just because they are Scottish, they have to give the contract to the cheapest bidder.

      Unless of course Iain worked that out, but put the smear story in anyway…of course he did. Unionist Troll.

      Honestly Iain time for you to retire to the Peoples Friend!

    189. Valerie says:

      @caz. Thanks, I am wary of Bella these days, but I don’t want to be in an echo chamber,cos I do check them out.

      Glad to see that MacWhirter is being telt on Twitter to read the Bella article!

      It’s a very well laid out, logical and evidenced piece.

      Read it, if you thought RISE was going to do anything worthwhile! It would suit them better to pursue Unionist claptrap.

    190. sensibledave says:

      Bob 3:57 pm

      You wrote “True to character, You appear to know more than the police at this stage as is your usual. Go home.

      … you’ve still not “got it” have you Bob. The police have got nothing to do with the point of my comment.

      If you find it impossible to understand my point, then ask yourself why the SNP have disowned her – even though she hasn’t done anything illegal!

      Why are you struggling with this? As discussed before, all parties and institutions have their share of people who don’t necessarily conduct themselves in a way one would hope or live up to standards held by the majority. It is no big thing. Get rid of them and move on. Trying to justify and defend them just looks silly and leaves the party open to all sorts of issues.

    191. Andy-B says:

      I don’t know how Jim Wilson can sleep at night, doesn’t that man know we know what’s going on at the Daily Record and Sunday Mail.

      I know quite a few people who’ll never buy those lying rags again, the Canary Wharf owned papers, the Record and Sunday Mail, will go the way of the Scotsman, sooner than later I hope.

    192. Another Union Dividend says:

      @ Sinky says at 1.39

      On Ian Murray’s apparent U turn over backing Fiscal Charter, you can add that Ian Murray has never voted against Trident in HoC.

      Its very clear that Gordon Brown has trashed Ian Murray’s latest newsletter claim that the Vow has been delivered.

      Ian Murray voted against the SNP amendment to the Scotland Bill that would have devolved employment law (as in Northern Ireland) and failed to support the SNP motion at Westminster on 3rd June to recover VAT like other emergency services across the UK with a level playing field for Scotland which would free up an additional £33 million to invest in frontline services.

      I wonder then any of our supine broadcasters will have cojones to challenge Murray on these issues.

      Now Labour media will be bigging up Kezia over the latest U turn despite her telling us that Corbyn was not Prime Ministerial material and if the Left-winger was successful, Labour would be left “carping on the sidelines”.

      The U turn will play very badly in Middle England.

    193. DerekM says:

      re Mr Swinney

      guys what John did was what had to be done the SNP were a fringe party kicking lumps out of the system from the outside and getting nowhere,Devolution and our parliament gave him the opportunity to build a parliamentary party.

      And boy what a party he built,he put them to work gaining experience and what we see today is a result of what he started,a feared political party that is in the system.

      lol nope John did good but he is such a modest guy that he wouldnt even think about claiming the credit.

    194. Angra Mainyu says:

      I wasn’t asking why people dislike Mcwhrter. I was asking why they suddenly dislike him which in an odd way is to ask why people ever thought he was okay. I always despised him, just as I more or less despise the Scotish Middle classes as a whole.

    195. sensibledave says:

      Tackety Beets 4.20

      It is just a little odd that, on the one hand, I am harangued and abused for supporting a capitalist party like the Tories – and then, on the hand, being lectured that any sort of capitalism is OK – providing it is legal. Caring Capitalism Tackety. Caring Capitalism!

    196. ahundredthidiot says:

      I see sensibledave is working overtime this week at the taxpayers expense

    197. Valerie says:

      I love John Swinney – there, I’ve said it!

      The guy Salmond calls Merlin, for his wizardry in bringing in the only European budget on target.

      A grafter, modest, hugely intelligent, and working to right wrongs of the right wing govt. as best he can. I agree he works well with Nicola.

      Another Minister I really admire is Humza.

    198. liz says:

      Bella Caledonia page now unavailable after that great article refuting McWhirter and Commonspace’s water privatisation story.

      Now Torrance has joined in, so this will be this weeks SNP bad story.

      Did anyone archive that article?

    199. Valerie says:

      I think MacWhirter is ill suited for The Peoples Friend @ Big Jock.

      They probably require journalistic integrity that goes beyond linking to smear pieces. His most recent piece in The Guardian is another hatchet job.

      Think he is losing his grip, as there is zero mileage in the MT thing, hence like an angry chimp, he is throwing faeces, in the form of the link to commonplace, hoping something will stick.

    200. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave. Read comment from the isolator.

    201. heedtracker says:

      liz says:
      13 October, 2015 at 4:24 pm
      @heedtracker – yes I saw your 1st post after posting mine.

      I do think JS and NS are aware it’s a trap and they will have to think how best to deal with it.

      Just say no.

      Its a hell of a UKOK timeline with their own purdah mincing third option but not on ballot paper, multi signature vote NO for The Vow, devo-max, federal UK, Crash Gordon raging away at YES voters to pool, share, bask in UKOK security, BUT over a year later and Smith Commission writer in chief Prof Tomkins explains how its all being used to make Swinney’s life hard, and ofcourse everyone else’s in his Scotland region too.

      And to cap it all, same Prof Tomkins, extreme English right wing, author of Smith, is now standing for Holyrood, knowing full well that without the list vote, he’d never get near the place. Its the perfect far right toryboy shit storm of rule Britannia and its all down to their great The Vow ripoff, which they probably didn’t need anyway but above all else, toryboys do not like risk.

    202. Fraser-M says:

      Capella @ 1.40

      Pommiestan?

    203. Made the mistake of reading sensibledave’s post. Won’t make that mistake again.

    204. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      Swinney’s jobs going to get a whole lot harder, Scotland. That’s what Prof Smirky etc have done with the Vow.

      I am certain that if our imperial masters continue with their current DevoPoisonedChalice it is going to bite them on the bum.

      First they win IndyRef1 on grandiose never to be fulfilled promises. Then we return SNP MPs with an astonishing mandate and on a ticket to get those promises delivered. Hopefully, we will return a strong majority government in May with a mandate to hold IndyRef2 when a majority want Indy and there is a significant change in circumstances.

      And, WM continues full steam ahead towards the perfectly visible iceberg!

      It’s all enough to make you believe they actually want the Union to end asap.

      Their plan, of course, is to deny that majority and then damage the SNP and SG with the chalice.

      WM would seem to staking everything on the SNP not getting a majority. If the SNP do, then it’s probably all over for the Union, sooner or later.

    205. Valerie says:

      @Liz
      Sorry link to Bella now coming up bad gateway.

      However, I have the report on my reading list saved to kindle. As its quite long, I don’t want to cut and paste. Not sure if I can archive it from a saved version. Sorry but a kindle is quite limited

    206. Sinky says:

      Liz

      If Bella article on Scottish Water is not available, try Scott Minto on Wings 9th October

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/thicker-than-water/#comments

      Lesson for everyone always archive.today articles including Wings as it can be dangerous going out shopping.

    207. Valerie says:

      https://mobile.twitter.com/Indy_Kimberley

      Above is the author of the Bella report on water. She had a link in her Twitter feed, but that goes to bad gateway as well. Presume Bella has crashed, or removed link?

      Lady’s name is Kimberley Cadden

    208. Capella says:

      Bella sometimes does crash. But not for long.
      While waiting – someone asked about land reform in a previous thread. Here is an article on Lenathehyena’s blog about the sad end of the farming community in Glenlivet in the 1950s thanks to the Crown Estate management.
      https://lenathehyena.wordpress.com/2015/10/04/glenlivet-battle-for-the-land/

    209. yesindyref2 says:

      In fairness to McWhirter he’s not SNP, and always was Devo-Max. It’s all over the place, Smith itself is a trap and the Scotland Act will be even worse, any sensible form of Devo-Max or FFA is totally off the table, and I’d say all Devo-Max supporters are all over the place themselves. It’s reasonably sure Swinney will have to reject the Scotland Act unless there’s massive improvements and there’ll be hell to pay when he does – a full-blown Constitutional crisis, where Westminster may even consider trying to cancel “the Holyrood project”. Time to dig out the trusty old blunderbuss and Claymore.

      Do they stick with it, a bird in the hand even though it’s a pro-active vulture of a bird (“I’m not awaiting for anyone to die, I’m going to kill my dinner”), do they give up and stick with the status quo, or do they go the whole hog and support Independence? That’s a large part of the “battleground” at the moment, and McWhirter’s right in the thick of it. Floundering I daresay, and lashing out in all directions.

      @Valerie – bella main page gives a bad gateway so I guess it’s temporary.

    210. Tony Little says:

      @sensibledave

      Yes I read your comment. I DO understand your point, I simply disagree with you.

      why the SNP have disowned her

      She resigned the whip to avoid even more idiotic Corporate Media spin directed at the SNP. Imagine if she was STILL a member what the vitriol level would be.

      As discussed before, all parties and institutions have their share of people who don’t necessarily conduct themselves in a way one would hope or live up to standards held by the majority

      What does that actually mean? The Unionist Corporate Media do not have a criminal case so they created the imaginary stooshie of some kind of ‘moral’ outrage. Ballcocks!

      M&FPS was a property services company that advertised for quick sales on which they would take the risk of on-selling the property. Nothing immoral in that. No one FORCED people to avail themselves of these services.

      These sellers could have waited, and waited, and waited. Their choice. Is it MORE moral to have these peoples’ properties repossessed and sold EVEN CHEAPER by the mortgage companies? And they DO do this – do you think THAT’S immoral?

      And these few property deals that are being investigated for POSSIBLE criminal activity are not the ONLY deals that M&FPS have ever done. What about all the others? Are they ALL immoral too?

      Fake outrage and nonsense. Let the police investigation run its course. If MT has done nothing illegal, who has the right to claim that some of these transactions were “immoral”. Who decides? The Corporate Media? Westminster Politicians? You?

    211. Nation Libre says:

      Wasn’t the higher 75k price purely to record a higher sale price (to enhance resale value) and/or to obtain a higher mortgage, maybe to do the place up? Possibly, to reduce capital gains tax at future sale or reduce profits and tax liabilities if a Ltd Co (larger purchase value, reduced profit)

      If you sell it for 75k but give 28k back to the buyer, you’ve not sold it for 75k, you’ve sold it for 47k surely, and then given the original owners 51k

      Regardless of our estimated valuation of 70k, the house didn’t appear to be shifting so 51k might have been a fair price

      It’s seems some sort of minor fiddle by someone to avoid a bit of tax or secure a higher mortgage, nether the mortgage company or the original owners appear to have been ripped off IMO

    212. yesindyref2 says:

      Bella traceroutes to fasthosts, and fasthosts’ website:

      “Service Temporarily Unavailable
      The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later.
      Microsoft-IIS/8.0 Server at http://www.fasthosts.net.uk Port 80″

      I, errr, how can I put it, would never consider them for my dedicated server.

    213. sensibledave says:

      The Isolator 4:24 pm and Bob Mack

      You wrote “Question for not so sensible Dave.What comes after tit for?”

      I’ll ignore the name change and deal with your question.

      You are still missing the point! Its not about the Police and it is not about the Parliamentary Standards Committee.

      It IS about what we (normal citizens) think it is OK to do in business. As I have written, I dont think the behaviour, character or business practices of any one MP/MSP, in any party, should reflect badly on their party – providing the party disassociates itself from the individual if they judge their conduct was not in keeping with the morals and ethics of that party – regardless of the legal position or the view taken by the Parliamentary Standards Committee (who enforce a set of rules often based around the “law”).

      Malcolm Rifkin and Jack Straw were both recently cleared by Parliamentary Standards – but, in my view, neither of them deserve to keep, or get back, their party whip. It is my right as a citizen to hold that view and act accordingly – I wouldn’t vote for either of them.

      I don’t think anything I will write that will change your view so let us leave it there and wait to see what happens when this has all blown over – and whether individuals are welcomed back into the fold.

      Do you fancy a wee wager, say £5 donated to the charity of the other person’s choice?

    214. yesindyref2 says:

      @sensibledave
      If there were a “morality” issue involved I’d be the first to agree with you, “preying on desperate people”, but firstly that hasn’t even been proven, and with the circumstances becoming clearer, it’s looking like there may be no morality issue involved at all, despite what the anti-SNP media would like us to believe. We just don’t know yet.

      The mortgage fraud issue is different and that is pending investigations, which won’t be quick. Yet again, the media know nothing, but imply plenty.

      The one thing we do know is that investigative journalism – isn’t, and media “reporting” in the sense of reporting facts and not reporting opinion, just doesn’t exist any more.

    215. Tackety Beets says:

      James Caithness @ 4.59

      Aye , James me too . Worst still, angrily I got drawn in to posting a reply , dammmmit !

      Apologies to all .

      Better get back to love bombing JS .

    216. Robert Peffers says:

      @caz-m says: 13 October, 2015 at 12:08 pm:

      “Stop saying that BBC Scotland didn’t discuss the latest Tory Party Conference.”

      DVB Channel 131 Freeview. The Parliament Channel covers the Conferences.

    217. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Liz.

      You typed,
      Did anyone archive that article? (Bellacaledonia water story)

      I was able to archive it at 18.06. You can find it here:-

      https://archive.is/V8QKn

    218. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “As discussed before, all parties and institutions have their share of people who don’t necessarily conduct themselves in a way one would hope or live up to standards held by the majority.”

      Hang on – who is this “majority” that objects to people making profits on house sales? Pretty much everyone who ever buys a house hopes to make a profit on it one way or another.

    219. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I bought my flat in 1983, for £10,000.

      The latest valuation (due to a wee remortgage), two years ago, valued it at £100,000.

      When I eventually decide to sell, in order to downsize, should I accept the first offer of £10,000, sensibledave? Coz I wouldn’t want to be called immoral on these hallowed pages, for making a £90,000 (on paper) profit.

      I type “on paper”, because all these years, I have been paying back a mortgage or two, monthly. Probably amounts to a lot more than £90,000, over the years – but I can’t be @rsed working it out to justify my own situation and blow your premise out of the water.

    220. Bob Mack says:

      Good point Rev.

      Sensibledave Presumably you won’t vote for Osborne who has clearly passed information to his pals on buying shares in the privatisation of publicly owned companies.
      Perhaps he would not do that? What do you think?

      I should also summise that Rifkind is not your local candidate therefore you remain free to vote Tory without the dilemma

    221. caz-m says:

      Robert Peffers

      Ye cannae beat a bit of Shereen Nanjiani on a Staurday morning for an in depth political discussion, especially when she has the wee Irishman on her show. (the wee unionist arse who thinks he looks like Paul Weller).

    222. Bob Mack says:

      Sensibledave spends hours trying to discredit the SNP because of Ms Thomsom —-objective—-get people to re examine their loyalty to a Scottish National Party.
      Next he decides that the actions of Rifkind do not reflect on his preferred Tory Party.

      Which is it Tory boy? You can’t have it both ways

    223. liz says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon – thanks for the archive link, useful to have.

    224. Onwards says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      13 October, 2015 at 5:25 pm

      ..Smith itself is a trap and the Scotland Act will be even worse, any sensible form of Devo-Max or FFA is totally off the table, and I’d say all Devo-Max supporters are all over the place themselves. It’s reasonably sure Swinney will have to reject the Scotland Act unless there’s massive improvements and there’ll be hell to pay when he does – a full-blown Constitutional crisis..
      —-

      The current proposals can be seen as a trap, but it is a trap that could easily backfire on unionists. Remember there has previously been huge reluctance to devolve income tax until the referendum forced it on them.

      There will be a huge change in mindset once peoples taxes start going to Holyrood, and there will inevitably be demand for the other major economic powers to follow.

      I think most voters understand that income tax alone is insufficient by itself. Most people realize that we can’t just raise income tax higher than England without the rich leaving and investment falling. It’s not rocket science.

      So the question moves on to what further economic and legislative powers are needed, and why other taxes are still going to London.

      If there is no change in income tax rates, and the economy ends up suffering relative to the rest of the UK there will only be 2 solutions:

      1. Giving up powers and moving backwards, or
      2. Demanding further economic powers to grow the economy effectively.
      I can only see that going one way. Scots will take the side of Holyrood, not Westminster, especially if EVEL has reduced the rights of Scottish MPs

    225. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 13 October, 2015 at 4:28 pm:

      ” … If you find it impossible to understand my point, then ask yourself why the SNP have disowned her – even though she hasn’t done anything illegal!”

      sensibledave, As usual your posts are codswallop.

      You really are a fool and, like most Scots, I do not suffer fools gladly. I suppose I’d best tell you why you are a fool or you will make your usual idiotic victimisation claims.

      The lady in question, Ms Thompson, was not disowned by the party. If you actually knew what you rambled on about, so verbosely, you would know the, as yet innocent lady, declared herself an Independent Member of Parliament until the matter is investigated and she also declared herself as innocent of any wrongdoing either morally or legally.

      In such circumstance the SNP has no choice but declare her as no longer a member of the party because she isn’t. you numptie.

      On the subject of guilt and morals, SD, You seem rather guilty of both criminally and morally defaming two, as yet innocent persons. You do realise you have wrongly accused two young ladies don’t you, SD? Both MS Thompson and Ms Sturgeon could sue you for defamation and the evidence is right here in this forum.

    226. Bob Mack says:

      I think that Dave forgets the Tories have been involved in all sorts of sleaze since they began,
      Even the great doyen of the Party, Churchill accepted £5000 pounds in 1920 from Burmah oil (BP) to lobby the British Government to allow them exclusive control of the Persian oil fields. They got their wish.
      That is the equivelant of £1,000,000 today.
      The list goes on and on.
      What have you got on the SNP Dave ?

    227. woosie says:

      Somebody please cheer me up with the latest figures on Sunday paper sales, hopefully showing the smail dropping.

      AND, that’s the Sunday Herald off the shopping list, just after The Herald.

    228. yesindyref2 says:

      @Onwards
      Indeed, and as you say it can backfire on unionists and become their own trap they aren’t just falling into, they’re jumping in with shouts of “Wheeeeeee”.

      I’d say that’s why the SNP are so quiet on a lot of things, just a prod now and again, and watch the unionists self-destruct. What a pity. I feel so sorry for them.

    229. The Isolator says:

      Dave..you haven’t dealt with anything have you?

      Current Unionista tactics consist of indiscriminate grenade throwing in the vague hope of damage collateral or not.The problem is the Westminster machime is cumbersome and not equipped in terms of modern PR warfare.

      Do you seriously think that after nearly 8 years of Scottish govermment they dont have the weaponry to fight back?Politics is a dirty game but undoubtedly they are equally able in the dirty tricks dept.Somewhere out there is a Sensible Dave on our side.Heaven forbid.

    230. caz-m says:

      woosie 7:05 pm
      “Somebody please cheer me up with the latest figures on Sunday paper sales, hopefully showing the smail dropping”

      Daily Mirror – 20.3 per cent drop = from 18,079 on average during August last year, to 14,398 last month;

      Daily Record – 10.1 per cent drop = from 203,941 on average during August last year, to 183,365 last month;

      Daily Star of Scotland – 13.2 per cent drop = 41,799 to 36,267;

      The Scottish Sun – 11.2 per cent drop = 246,066 to 218,609;

      Scottish Daily Express – 11.5 per cent drop = 48,636 to 43,032;

      Scottish Daily Mail – 3.5 per cent drop = 93,321 to 90,010;

      Daily Telegraph – 1.5 per cent drop = 18,599 to 18,314;

      Financial Times – 5.8 per cent up = 2,312 to 2,447;

      The Guardian – 9.4 per cent drop = 10,073 to 9,122;

      i – 8.8 per cent drop = 18,712 to 17,060;

      Independent – 11.6 per cent drop = 2,990 to 2,642; and

      The Times – 0.3 per cent up = 20,420 to 20,480.

      Meanwhile, the Sunday titles’ sales figures in Scotland were as follows:

      Daily Star of Scotland – Sunday – 13.3 per cent down = 23,161 to 20,071;

      The Scottish Sun – Sunday – 11.2 per cent down = 175,525 to 155,928;

      Sunday Mail – 12.5 per cent down = 231,821 to 202,922;

      Sunday Mirror – 22.9 per cent down = 18,202 to 14,032;

      The People – 21.3 per cent down = 9,678 to 7,620;

      Scottish Mail on Sunday – 7.8 per cent down = 83,079 to 76,556;

      Scottish Sunday Express – 10.2 per cent down = 28,002 to 25,152;

      The Sunday Post – 10.6 per cent down = 146,940 to 131,295;

      Independent on Sunday – 13.3 per cent down = 5,896 to 5,114;

      The Observer – 6.6 per cent down = 14,093 to 13,164;

      Sunday Telegraph – 10.2 per cent down = 16,543 to 14,855; and

      Sunday Times – 4.4 per cent down = 46,927 to 44,840.

    231. sensibledave says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell 6:19 pm

      “Hang on – who is this “majority” that objects to people making profits on house sales? Pretty much everyone who ever buys a house hopes to make a profit on it one way or another.”

      Dear Rev, I honestly do not understand why you are digging your heels on this rather than letting the truth (whatever it is) come out and then making your own decisions about whether you are “comfortable” with the way these types of companies conduct business and who they target.

      Firstly, contrary to what some commenters above have written, on this issue, I have absolutely no issues with the way the SNP have/are handling things. Even more specifically, I have made the point repeatedly that the conduct of one individual in any party should not reflect on their party – providing their party takes a position and acts decisively and accordingly. You, and others here, seem hell bent on defending people regardless of what they may have done, regardless of the fact that they have voluntarily withdrawn from the party, and regardless of the fact that the SNP leadership are offering no support at all.

      Secondly, with regards to the innocuous word “majority”, in this instance, I am simply referring to “normal”, man/woman in the street views of what constitutes right and wrong, morally, – that is all.

      This issue is nothing to do with politics, it is to do with what some people might do in business to make a profit.

      Without reference to Ms Thomson’s issue, you must be aware that there a businesses in all sorts of sectors that operate “legally” but who’s conduct we might condemn.

      In another sector, Pay Day loan companies spring to mind. They offer loans to willing borrowers and offer a service that no one else does and is extremely valuable for a section of society. They have legal contracts and pre stated terms, conditions, penalties and restitutions. Their interest rates are stated and they show the APRs. Everything was within the law – and yet most of us were critical of their conduct and the way that they took advantage, and maximised, their position with a vulnerable section of our society.

      I find it hard to understand why you and I would disagree on this subject.

    232. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Nation libre, Natalie Hughes; I tried to clarify the circumstances regarding the Wrights house, MT’s companies involvement, using the facts that we know about from dates, values and registered owners. If you read my comments from last night just before midnight and then another about 8am you will see what appears to be the only rational explanation(using the available information).

    233. Robert Peffers says:

      @sensibledave says: 13 October, 2015 at 4:41 pm:

      “It is just a little odd that, on the one hand, I am harangued and abused for supporting a capitalist party like the Tories – and then, on the hand, being lectured that any sort of capitalism is OK – providing it is legal. Caring Capitalism”

      What’s not to understand, SD? You obviously have no idea of political history and how the World has been adversely affected by it. Not only by the extremes of party positioning upon the political spectrum but by the ideological battling of opposing mantras.

      All parties that have historically strayed too far from the centre of the political spectrum have crashed their state into crisis.

      I do not even needs go too far back to find examples. The USAsian, “Great Depression”, set the World’s economy back and led to WWII. The USSR crashed the World into years of Cold War and an economically crippling arms race before crashing into chaos. The present right wing created financial crises is further proof that too right wing capitalism is a recipe for disaster. Need I explain the plight of North Korea who have just rattled a very large sabre while the nation is starving?

      The SG is just slightly left of centre and show that any country will benefit not only by normal support for business while caring well for not only the workers but the old, ill, disabled and poor.

      I just wish you could realise you are the epitome of that old Scottish saying, “He jist opens his muckle gub an maks his belly rumble”.

    234. Marcia says:

      Having elected 56 SNP MP’s in May the BBC Parliamentary Channel have decided to give the SNP Annual Conference more than the usual hour of coverage of the Leaders speech. Coverage seems to start on Thursday at 5.30 and is spread over 3 days. Check the TV listings for actual times.

    235. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave,

      Try Henry Angest,former Tory treasurer and friend of D Cameron.Think you will find he owns companies specialising in pay day loans. There are others if you wish.
      Not immoral eh?

    236. heedtracker says:

      I find it hard to understand why you and I would disagree on this subject.

      Look at it this way sensibledave, real world stuff not rule Britannia attack propaganda-

      Most middle class Scots, certainly most professional ones of Thomson’s generation will have property, savings, pensions etc hitting a million quid, some much more, some less.

      So that’s the reality sensible.

      Of the above Scots middle classes, the majority are NO at this point in Scottish history. Does that reflect on Thomson in various progressive and liberal ways sensible? what with her £1.7 property empire n shit.

      In particular much of the BBC Scotland UKOK goon show will probably be even better off than your average middle class Scot. The managers at Pacific Quay get paid 200+ hundred grand a year.

      There’s your britnat unionist world and the real world sensibledave.

    237. sensibledave says:

      Bob Mack 7:04 pm

      You wrote “I think that Dave forgets the Tories have been involved in all sorts of sleaze since they began … and all sorts of other tosh …”, and then … “What have you got on the SNP Dave ?”

      Bob, I can’t help you further. Your seem incapable of reading what I have actually written – and prefer comment on that which you assume I have written.

      I have no criticism of the SNP in this matter! It has nothing to do with the SNP, can I be any clearer?

      All other parties have had, and will continue to have, issues with the conduct of their MPs from time to time. I see this as no different.

      I raised the issue of Malcolm Rifkind to prove my point. I have seen the videos. I don’t care that he wasn’t judged to have done anything illegal. I don’t care that he was judged to have not breaking any Parliamentary rules. I don’t like what he was offering and I wouldn’t want him as a representative of any party that I voted for. Again, can I be any clearer than that?

    238. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 7.50

      … I can’t be bothered to respond to your ramblings this evening Heedy.

      How you turn this issue into anything to do with Independence or the Brit Nat thingy is beyond me – other than you desperately want it to be.

    239. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave,
      So I assume you will no longer vote Tory ?

    240. Rock says:

      Paula Rose,

      “I really try to stay away from a main thread when Rock appears but really – that is so obvious.”

      Where were you when the Greens’s referendum about a referendum was being debated?

    241. Cairnallochy says:

      Am I missing something but was/is it not part of the regulations for the resale of council houses that any sale within 5 years would be subject to repayment of an appropriate proportion of the original discount – i.e. 20% after 4 years ? If what I am reading is correct, the sale under discussion was only 4 years after the original purchase in 2007.

    242. Rock says:

      Capella,

      “Buying for £51,000 and selling for £75,00 after 4 years, in a property boom, and maybe even after renovations, is not necessarily excessive. Get a grip.”

      Get a grip yourself.

      There was no gap as is clear in everything that has been written on WOS.

    243. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “Weare living in very different times.

      Not so long ago no reputable newspaper would have printed lies.”

      Which world have you been living in?

      Which “reputable” newspaper are you talking about?

      They have always lied when talking about Scotland.

    244. sensibledave says:

      Robert Peffers 7:27 pm

      … another pompous, patronising, irrelevant, history lesson Robert.

      I did note one paragraph that struck a chord though:

      “All parties that have historically strayed too far from the centre of the political spectrum have crashed their state into crisis”

      …Hmmm.

    245. Rock says:

      Capella,

      “Buying for £51,000 and selling for £75,00 after 4 years, in a property boom, and maybe even after renovations, is not
      necessarily excessive. Get a grip.”

      I was talking about the £24,000 profit made by Thomson’s firm, without any gap at all.

      It is you who needs to get a grip on the figures being discussed.

    246. sensibledave says:

      Bob Mack 8:01 pm

      You wrote “So I assume you will no longer vote Tory ?”

      … you really do need to try and keep up Bob (I’m starting to get grumpy now) and read, understand and think – rather than just typing out your last brain fart.

      You can absolutely assume that I will not vote for any party that Malcolm Rifkind is a candidate for in an Election. Got it?

    247. heedtracker says:

      Sensible try dragging yourself out of the gutter for once in your teamGB rule Britannia life.

      This is

      “You, and others here, seem hell bent on defending people regardless of what they may have done, regardless of the fact that they have voluntarily withdrawn from the party, and regardless of the fact that the SNP leadership are offering no support at all.

      full on UKOK monstering of SNP MP still be found guilty of anything.

      Sure you tory britnats have leapt on Thomson and her association with a struck off lawyer, you’ve raged away at Thomson and her horrifying property empire, £1.7 million but all you have left is the usual britnat condescending sneer.

      Check it this out sensible. ASPC is a good place to see how things are going economically in parts of Scotland, although you’ve probably never passed the Watford Gap.

      https://www.aspc.co.uk/search/property/318199/Baylissburn-House—Dalmuinzie-Road/Aberdeen/

      £1.85 million for shame! Its a retired shrinks house

      https://www.aspc.co.uk/search/property/327587/Gowan-House—10-Prospecthill-Road/Aberdeen/

      A Stewarty Milne new build, and its near his multi million new mansion/eye sore too. The UKOK greed of it all.

      Grow up sensibledave.

    248. Rock says:

      Dr Jim,

      “We like stuff to be fair”

      That is why the majority of us don’t like people who buy something for £51,000 and sell it for £75,000 on the same day.

      Nothing illegal mind you.

      It seems everyone here has suddenly developed a great liking for property speculators.

    249. Free Scotland says:

      The tories knew the eyes of the world would try to focus on them during the tory party conference, so, with the help of their chums in the unionist rags, they found an issue which could be used as a smokescreen, a distraction and a headline grabber. Seems to have worked. I mean, can you remember any aspects of the tory party conference, which took place only a few short days ago?

    250. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave .

      UKIP?
      Ps Your getting ratty.

    251. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “Though there is a very large and committed socialist presence in Scotland (and good luck to it)Scotland is not a socialist country.”

      Did I say Scotland was a socialist country?

      “But the majority of people in Scotland are ‘socialist’ by nature.”

      Did you notice the inverted commas?

    252. Robert Peffers says:

      @Nation Libre says: 13 October, 2015 at 5:27 pm

      ” … Wasn’t the higher 75k price purely to record a higher sale price (to enhance resale value) and/or to obtain a higher mortgage, maybe to do the place up?”

      Of course I’m just guessing but it looks very much as if the company was applying for the larger bank loan so as to pay the offered price plus the couple’s outstanding Mortgage. Then the repayment to the couple would be for them to pay their arrears and clear their mortgage.

      In the first place the Bank are not daft and would know the value of the property so knew what the score was. There may also have been a bit of the Bank loan towards either upgrading, or at least doing up, and repairs to the property.

      As far as anyone knows there has been no criminal acts. Not even the Solicitor is yet charged with anything. His striking off was for breaking Law Society Guidelines.

    253. heedtracker says:

      It seems everyone here has suddenly developed a great liking for property speculators.

      How much profit did the vulnerable family make again?

      It seems everyone has suddenly developed a great liking for BBC vote SLab bullshitters.

    254. Bob Mack says:

      @rock,

      Hello. Every transaction is a speculation,whether in property or on e bay.
      The onus is surely on you to buy sell or not.
      Ever sold your car mate.Lavishly spending hundreds or thousands of pounds onit only to find it is worth no more than a buyer is prepared to fork out.
      It is life.Live with it.

    255. sensibledave says:

      All

      … my last comment for today.

      On the specific subject of the morals and ethics in business, I offer you this excerpt for a recent FMQs

      “I ask the First Minister, is preying on desperate people ever an ethical way to run a business?”

      Ms Sturgeon replied: “No, I don’t think it is.

      …. I agree with Ms Sturgeon, if you disagree, – take it up with Ms Sturgeon.

    256. Rock says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      “Fairness” is the major component of that, not dogmatic anti capitalism.”

      Is buying something for £51,000 and selling it for £75,000 on the same day “fair” by your definition?

      Nothing illegal mind you.

      If we want “fairness” in society after independence, we will have to make sure that the likes of “Business for Scotland” and “Lawyers for Yes” have no political influence.

      The vast majority of business people and lawyers don’t give a damn about “fairness” in society.

      90% of the middle class voted No.

    257. Bob Mack says:

      @sensibledave,

      Definition of desperate?

    258. Marcia says:

      You are scraping the barrel not so sensible Dave. Anyone would reply that it is awful for business to prey on the vulnerable. You are linking it to MT and from what the Rev has posted, the Weir’s have been used by the media. The vulnerable have been preyed on by the media.

    259. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      13 October, 2015 at 8:42 pm
      All

      … my last comment for today.

      If your slander of Thomson is justified, she is the crook your telling us she is, come back and crow, with all the klass you britnats possess in spades.

    260. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “How much profit did the vulnerable family make again?”

      I have no sympathy for the Wrights and I am not talking about them.

      I am talking about businesses which make huge profits out of property speculation.

      If you like such businesses, that is your choice.

    261. Rock says:

      Bob Mack,

      “Hello. Every transaction is a speculation,whether in property or on e bay.”

      People making excessive profits is what makes society unfair.

      Property speculation by businesses is a prime example.

      If you are comfortable with the filthy rich, fine. It just means there is less for everyone else.

    262. Bob Mack says:

      I like Mr and Mrs Weir who are filthy rich.Don’t you?

      They seem to do a lot of good with that filthy richness.
      Usually for people who are not so filthy rich.

    263. Grouse Beater says:

      Cock of the Rock: “I am talking about businesses which make huge profits out of property speculation.”

      And you felt this uncontrollably urge to drop in here to proclaim your opinion.

      You’ll be the guy who enters stores to tell them their window display sucks, and then walks out again.

    264. heedtracker says:

      I am talking about businesses which make huge profits out of property speculation.

      If you like such businesses, that is your choice.

      Everyone in teamGB is a property speculator! Its the UKOK way. Everyone wants on the property ladder and everyone thinks its great, except those that cant.

      There are other ways of living, ask a Swede.

      Like I said, middle aged, middle class Scotland is £1.7 millionish super rich, if they got into a profession 30 years ago.

      Thomson’s no exception unless your a British attack propagandist at BBC vote SLabour Scotland, like this UKOK lad

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/corporate2/insidethebbc/managementstructure/biographies/macquarrie_ken

      Its always a bit odd watching quite rich BBC teamGB propagandists trying to get some olde school class war going. Maybe they’ll succeed, maybe they really can overthrow Scotland’s democratically elected government.

    265. John Young says:

      OT Ross Ford and Jonny Gray #sco OUT of Sunday’s Rugby World Cup QF v #aus Each banned for 3 weeks for dangerous tackle v Samoa. Can appeal.Note they were cited by an Australian official.

    266. Macart says:

      A wee ditty to lighten the mood. Originally where you see Cameron you would find the name Thatcher and likewise he for she. The more things change…

      Cameron is my shepherd,
      I shall not want,
      He leadeth me beside still factories,
      He depriveth me of oil,
      He guideth me to the path of unemployment
      For the party’s sake.

      I feel much evil, for thou art against me,
      He anointest my wages with price increases
      That my expenses runneth over my income,
      Surely poverty and hard living shall follow me
      and I shall dwell in a rented hovel forever.

      Five thosand years ago Moses said, (I paraphrase, cough)
      ‘Park your camel, pick up your shovel and mount your ass’
      and I will lead you to the promised land.’

      Five thousand years later Roosevelt said, ‘Lay down your shovel, sit on your ass and smoke your camel. This is the promised land.

      Today Cameron will take your shovel, sell your camel, kick your ass and tell you there is no promised land. I am glad I am Scottish hoping to be free, but I wish Iwere a dog and Cameron a tree.

      Haythangyou.

      Anon.

    267. Rock says:

      Grouse Beater,

      “And you felt this uncontrollably urge to drop in here to proclaim your opinion.”

      Why are you posting on this site?

      To proclaim someone else’s opinions?

      At least I am proclaiming my own.

    268. Rock says:

      heedtracker,

      “Like I said, middle aged, middle class Scotland is £1.7 millionish super rich, if they got into a profession 30 years ago.”

      90% of them voted No.

      What is your point?

    269. G says:

      Rock:

      “If we want “fairness” in society after independence, we will have to make sure that the likes of “Business for Scotland” and “Lawyers for Yes” have no political influence.

      The vast majority of business people and lawyers don’t give a damn about “fairness” in society.

      90% of the middle class voted No.”

      Silly generalisations, and not my experience. Generalisation is the first step to bigotry.

      Don’t know where you got the 90% figure from either.

    270. Rock says:

      G,

      “Silly generalisations, and not my experience. Generalisation is the first step to bigotry.”

      Shall we stop calling “unionists” unionists?

      You are not a human rights lawyer are you?

    271. heedtracker says:

      90% of them voted No.

      What is your point?

      Already made it.

      But look at Thomson and her ill gotten gains, if you’re a britnat. Joined the SNP as a teen, with the commitment to become an MP eventually, she’s clearly been singled out and targeted by the usual assortment of extremely well paid shameless liars and ferocious BBC con artists. Hopefully it wont deter middle class women from entering politics Rock.

      What do you do for a job daddy? I spend my work day smearing and lying about politicians, trying to manipulate people into voting the way my boss tells me, with the entire focus on getting the current elected Scottish government kicked out. But I am not a crook.

    272. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Am I missing something but was/is it not part of the regulations for the resale of council houses that any sale within 5 years would be subject to repayment of an appropriate proportion of the original discount – i.e. 20% after 4 years ?”

      We covered this before too. It was three years.

    273. Effijy says:

      sensibledave says:
      13 October, 2015 at 3:45 pm
      … I can’t believe this subject is keeping going – and that so many people are missing the point.

      First we need to change your name to Troll Dave or Not Thinking Straight Dave, or maybe even Dim Jim?

      How about this for a moral point, we have Cameron & Osborne
      worth £100,000,000 between them, telling 500,000 people who use food banks that they must make further cuts to their meager existence, even if they are out working hard?

      How about it being morally correct for the ordinary hard working
      people to pay of the £Millionaire Casino Bankers debts, so that they can stay in business long enough to reposes the homes of those who bailed them out?

      Maybe the Bedroom Tax is morally better, let’s throw disabled people out of their adapted homes, homes that they may have lived in all their lives, due to them having a spare Bedroom, and how unfortunate there aren’t enough 1 bedroom homes around for them.

      Maybe its moral to sell off the remnant of Royal Mail, and asset that belongs to every UK citizen while we slept?
      Now who bought these cut price shares, no not the people who are
      doing their best to get off welfare, not the disabled, not those on Zero hours contracts, not those who are struggling to survive
      to pay their bills on low wages. It must be morally correct to let the filthy rich make money from our assets.

      Yes Dizzy Dave, you just can’t beat the moral high ground you and your Red and Blue Tory friends have! NOT!

      Take up fantasy gaming or something you might understand!

    274. Grouse Beater says:

      Rock: “At least I am proclaiming my own.”

      The one you posted had absolutely nothing to do with the subject under discussion. All you’re doing is cultivating a notoriety for being angry and belligerent and hating everybody.

    275. Paula Rose says:

      Hi Rock – just back from my local SNP branch meeting – what have you been up to?

    276. Capella says:

      @ rock
      you’re right. I apologise. It wasn’t a 4 year gap.

    277. G says:

      I don’t see a problem with the term “unionist”. Some unionists might feel uncomfortable with some of the associations, but it’s a fairly unambiguous descriptive term. There are some whose ties to Scotland are a bit weaker, shall we say, whom I might describe as “imperialists”. I’m comfortable describing myself as a “nationalist”, though I would cease to be one after independence.

      Take any group that voted No – old people; immigrants from England and NI; the privately educated; the affluent; those with marbles in their mouth and double-barrelled names; Church of Scotland; Rangers fans; etc. Most of us personally know people in all these groups who voted Yes, and some were the most passionate and active advocates. It’s interesting and useful to look at voting demographics but I fear that every time we single out groups we risk alienating people.

      It seems to me that the main reasons people voted No were ignorance, fear, selfishness, greed, and British nationalism, in roughly that order, and these are found across the spectrum, in all walks of life. Tackling the ignorance and the fear will take us over the finish line.

      No, I’m not a lawyer, I just enjoy the linguistic introspection 🙂

    278. Robert Peffers says:

      Rock says: 13 October, 2015 at 8:04 pm:

      “There was no gap as is clear in everything that has been written on WOS.”

      Oh! Come on! Rock.

      The matter really is plain. The buyer seems to not only obtain a bank loan to for the house but pay off the sellers mortgage and perhaps even payment arrears. That is, of course an assumption. It explains not only why there was a cashback but why the couple needed a quick sale.

    279. Chic McGregor says:

      Hold on. If they paid £21,000 for the house but the outstanding mortgage was still something like £30,000 does that not imply one of the following?:

      A) They obtained a mortgage greater than that required to pay for the house and therefore used that as a kind of ‘cashback’ themseves.

      or

      B) They subsequently applied for a mortgage extension and used that money.

      I may be mis reading/understanding something here.

      Of course, they may have used that extra money to improve the property a reasonable thing to do. But even then £30,000 extra for an around £10,000 property improvement investment seems pretty good business.

    280. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Robert, I posted this last night at midnight. It seems not to have been noticed/read as several people are still assuming that this transaction(the Wrights) was a cashback/mortgage deal as has been described in the press. It wasn’t.(from the information that is available)

      The house has been sold twice. In 2007 from the cooncil to the wrights for 21K. Then in 2011 to S Weir for 75K. It was not sold to MT, nor to her and Gilbrides co. MFPS.

      We have found out that the wrights had to sell quickly, (so mortgage arrears seems likely) and to do so engaged MT company who guarenteed 51K with any extra. They found a buyer (weir) who paid 75K. The house still seems to be in Weirs name as no further sales have taken place.

      So wrights buy at 21K, sell for 51K after 4yrs. Pay off mortgage of 30K, left with 21K.

      MFPS arrange quick sale, guarentee 51K, find buyer (or have someone in mind) and raise a finders fee/sellers premium of 24K, out of which would come whatever fees are applicable, conveyancing/register/ mortgage clearing/ whatever.

      I have looked through the solicitors tribunal and the Wrights house sale is not listed as one which breached the code. As it happens no names are mentioned, but dates and figures are and none match the Wrights sale. That then begs the question, how then did the Wrights find themselves on primetime TV?

    281. sensibledave says:

      Effijy 10:47 pm

      … you totally miss the point again!

      We are not discussing politics and we are not discussing party policy – we are discussing morals and ethics in business.

      I will have to accept that many here see no ethical problem in any business making as much profit as they can, out of any deal in any circumstances, from any individual – regardless of their circumstances.

      I disagree.

      If you see that as trolling – then you are a fool.

    282. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker 8:54 pm

      “If your slander of Thomson is justified, she is the crook your telling us she is, come back and crow, with all the klass you britnats possess in spades.”

      1. On a general point of accuracy, “slander” isn’t “slander” if it is justified.

      2. I have never accused Ms Thomson of being a “Crook” – quite the reverse, I have repeatedly written that she hasn’t done anything illegal.

      3. I wouldn’t “crow”. You and I had many interactions in the run up to the General Election. I forecast either another hung parliament with the Tories being the biggest party or, as I wrote in response to Fiona at that time, a sneaky outright majority for the Tories. If you can be bothered with facts, have a read of all my comments after the election and see if you can find any “crowing”. Again, quite the reverse, I wrote huge congratulations on a hugely impressive performance by the SNP.

      4. This issue with Ms Thomson is not about politics or Independence Heedy – although you desperately want it to be. It is about morals and ethics in business. And, just in case you haven’t understood what I have written previously, all parties have individuals who’s conduct has let them down and I do not see this issue as having anything to do with the SNP per se.

      I don’t know why I have written the above – because you will, as you always do, ignore what I have written and will write some unintelligible diatribe that will include the words/phrases: Toryboys, UKOK, Britnats, Independence, RedTory, etc, etc. – in some random order.

      … can’t wait!

    283. Grouse Beater says:

      DippyDave: – we are discussing morals and ethics in business..

      No, you’re not. Dishonest as ever, you’re doing you best to defame an individual and help slow down democratic progress in Scotland.

      Try attacking corporations who make massive profits but manage to avoid paying tax, and do it with the blessing of Whitehall. Somebody here might think you’re something other than crap on their shoe.

    284. fletch49er says:

      Isn’t the Sunday Mail’s Jim Wilson therefore an editor of similar purpose to the complaints editor?

    285. Grouse Beater says:

      Dippy Dave: I have never accused Ms Thomson of being a “Crook” – quite the reverse, I have repeatedly written that she hasn’t done anything illegal.

      Then why don’t you go to hell?

    286. shug says:

      How are your pages view counts looking
      You really need to think about how your message about msm and the BBC gets out and how to market your site to non nats
      Start thinking about crowd funding advertising for the site
      Any ref 2 result will depend on wings getting a clear message to non nats

    287. sensibledave says:

      Grousey 9.24

      You wrote “Then why don’t you go to hell?”

      … Ah, that is whole new subject Grousey and one that is potentially very divisive. In short though, its because there is no such thing.

    288. sensibledave says:

      Grousey 9.24

      You wrote “No, you’re not. Dishonest as ever, you’re doing you best to defame an individual and help slow down democratic progress in Scotland.

      Slow down the democratic progress in Scotland????

      Wow! Am I really that clever – and why would I want to do that?

      Just on the point of on “democratic progress” in Scotland, I think, by now, you should be able to finish the following sentence that I have written numerous times before: “I don’t care whether voters in Scotland want to remain part of the UK or want Independence – I just want the majority of Scottish Voters to have what they ……”

      (to assist you Grousey, here are your two choices:

      1. … Want
      2. … Vote for)

    289. Alan Mackintosh says:

      SD, You need to get out more. I think you’ll find Hell is in Nord-Trondelag.

    290. heedtracker says:

      Gees a break sensisible. Your UKOK rule toryboy waffle such as

      “You, and others here, seem hell bent on defending people regardless of what they may have done, regardless of the fact that they have voluntarily withdrawn from the party, and regardless of the fact that the SNP leadership are offering no support at all.”

      is perfect Britnat attack and slander. Whatever you think you are achieving here, I have never seen WoS commit these kind of very serious offences both legal and logic

      Who knows sensible, Thomson could be a crook, BBC etc say she is but so far, we know the vulnerable family accepted the offer made to them. Unless they were duped in some way by Thomson, its hard to complain about her business practices, buy low/sell high, it’s what makes the world turn.

      None of that real world stuff matters to the UKOK BBC style slanderer and smear mob, or you sensible ofcourse.

      There are a whole range of great arguments for Scotland remaining under the control of 600 English MP’s sensibledave, so why not make them.

      And once you start doing that, you’ll find you might actually get a sensible debate going on here, instead of this ridiculous SNP are crooks and gangsters and you’re all so stupid for breaking up England/UK buffoonery.

      We have like of Keverage for all that. In summary

      This sensiblesave, “hell bent on defending people regardless of what they may have done,”

      really does sum you up you rule britannia types, DEFEND people regardless of what they MAY have done?!

      TeamGB is nothing if not a loony bin, sensible.

    291. Ruby says:

      What I don’t understand is why people respond to ‘Sensible Dave’.

      It makes the forum too Scotsman like for my taste.

      I can scroll past ‘Sensible Dave’ easily enough but if the whole thread is taken over by ‘Sensible Dave’ then I just give up reading all posts.

      I suspect this is what ‘Sensible Dave’ wants and what worked for the ‘Sensible Daves’ on The Scotsman.

    292. sensibledave says:

      Alan Mackintosh @ 10.15

      … I stand corrected! Shows what I know, I always thought that Hell is supposed to be quite warmish – and quite a lot of very bad people are there? The quoted population is just 1,440 and Hell actually freezes over for a third of the year!

    293. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker 10:30 am

      … I knew you wouldn’t let me down!

    294. sensibledave says:

      Ruby 10.35

      You wrote “What I don’t understand is why people respond to ‘Sensible Dave’.”

      … it is because people are often surprised to see an alternative point of view – or because I am perceived (wrongly) as the very embodiment of “unionism” and should therefore be given “what for” for daring to have a different opinion on something.

    295. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      14 October, 2015 at 10:38 am
      heedtracker 10:30 am

      … I knew you wouldn’t let me down!

      and you britnats never fail to disappoint.

      Anyhoo, a fellow Britnat of yours sensible says WoS is actually MI5 and Thomson’s going to be the UKOK Watergate. There can be no whitewash in teamGB. I shit you not sensible.

      http://ianssmart.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/follow-money.html?m=1

      England will be just fine on its own sensibledave.

    296. Grouse Beater says:

      Dippydave: Am I really that clever

      No. Just vain, arrogant, and a jerk. Your posts are moronic. Get a life.

    297. Big Jock says:

      Yeh I read that Smart blog! Good for a giggle!

      He really is a dumb shit!

    298. shug says:

      Alan macintosh post most interesting of the day
      How did they get on TV with half a story
      BBC at its best
      Is e Bradford covering property sales now

    299. Ruby says:

      Alan Mackintosh says:

      That then begs the question, how then did the Wrights find themselves on primetime TV?

      Ruby replies:

      I think we all know the answer to that. I would like to know more about the Wrights. Were they able to buy another house? Were they declared homeless and did this get them to the top of the council/housing association waiting list. What did they do with their £21k? Do they claim housing benefit/pension credits?

      The other issue that I’m wondering about is the stealing/hacking/leaking of emails. Is this illegal? If it isn’t illegal then surely it must be immoral. It would be interesting to hear Kezias views on this as her party seem to involved in a lot of issues where emails have been stolen/hacked/leaked.

      Is an email any different to ordinary mail would Kezia condone letters being steamed opened and the content released to the press?

    300. Squabbling with each other on this forum is likely to drive undecided voters away.

      Possibly back to “The Herald”, “The Daily Mail”, “The Daily Record” & even the Looney Tunes hymn sheet, “The Scotsman”.

      Any questions?

    301. sensibledave says:

      Grouse Beater at 11:11 am

      You wrote: “No. Just vain, arrogant, and a jerk. Your posts are moronic. Get a life.

      Er, thanks for that well argued and thoughtful opinion Grousey!

      I will diarise this thread – to be returned to some time in the future when we all know exactly what has been going on – and we then discuss just who is a moronic jerk – and who is so naive that he doesn’t know his a**e from his elbow when it comes to certain business practices. Agreed?

    302. heedtracker says:

      I will diarise this thread – to be returned to some time in the future when we all know exactly what has been going on

      Ata boy sensible! Now you youre acting like a big old grown up, what with your “when we all know exactly what has been going on” stuff.

      Funny how NOT knowing exactly what has been going on hasn’t prevented you from slandering and smearing and doing all that rule Britnatia stuff though. Like you say sensible, in teamGB, anyone NOT red or blue tory is guilty before being proven etc and ofcourse, SNP bad.

      Incidentally sensibledave, if Thomson is the gangster you and all the other wild eyed nutters in Pacific Quay say she is, it wont stop Scottish independence.

    303. YesMeansYes says:

      In the latest irrational outburst against the SNP the corporate media are doing what losers do, resurrecting a Zombie argument –

      Ian Swanson: Embarrassments fail to derail SNP

      Is this a starry-eyed, religious-style devotion to the Nationalists? One academic has claimed the SNP currently functions “more like a cargo cult than a conventional political party”, successfully persuading a majority of the Scottish people that a secular millennium is just around the corner.

      Interestingly, the unnamed ‘academic’ has indulged in a little plagiarism in lifting a quote from an odious anti devolutionary from the dark days of Labourite dominance of Scottish politics. –

      There is another great fallacy. Willie Small would have referred to the theological cargo cult. (. . . ) The SNP, too, suffer from a cargo cult phenomenon.

      Norman Buchan MP, Renfrewshire West
      Scotland Bill House of Commons 18th January 1978

      The corporate media are the ones who are victims of a cult. Theirs is the cult of conservatism. The world has changed around them and they cannot cope. They remind me of the tapes from the ‘Bermuda triangle’.

      A pilot initially misidentified an island group leading him to fly out to sea rather than to land. Because it is human nature to give a higher credence to initial ‘certainties’ he could not understand why when he then looked at the planes controls were telling him he was flying the wrong way. He then radioed in to say that his instruments were not working. Because he could not change his world view he flew out to sea and was never seen again.

      Similarly the Corporate media have been living in a world they understood to be real. They are still “doing lunch” with the old order and naturally they agree with each other that there is something wrong with reality. “The instruments are not working”

      The bottom line is that if you find yourself in a position where you cannot understand reality, it is not reality that is to blame.

      No matter how much you, I, or anyone else screams at these fools that “Your instruments are working” they will arrogantly dismiss this inexplicable reality, and continue flying out to sea.

      “Chocks away!”

    304. Strichen Eck says:

      You write that “the Wrights’ profit came off the back of a taxpayer subsidy of their original purchase of the house for just £21,000.” If benefiting from the right-to-buy was a crime then Nicola Sturgeon’s parents would be criminals because – as was reported on 15 April 2015 – “The terraced former council house, on a quiet street a few miles from the Firth of Clyde, was bought by Robert and Joan Sturgeon in May 1984 for a knockdown £8,400 and is now worth around £150,000 – a near 20-fold rise in value.” Unless of course you’re suggesting that Nicola Sturgeon’s parents are altruistic SNP supporting nationalists and intend to sell their house back to the Council for the original purchase price of £8,400.

    305. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “If benefiting from the right-to-buy was a crime then Nicola Sturgeon’s parents would be criminals”

      It isn’t. But whining that someone else made a profit when you’ve just done the same is a bit tossy. As far as I’m aware Mr and Mrs Sturgeon haven’t done that. Your analogy is therefore pish.

    306. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Your analogy is therefore pish

      That’s what I like about this site – straight to the point!

      8=)

    307. Grouse Beater says:

      Dippydave: I will diarise this thread

      Get a bloody life before it’s too late.

    308. Fionaf says:

      Ruby says:
      14 October, 2015 at 10:35 am
      What I don’t understand is why people respond to ‘Sensible Dave’.

      Me neither. Waste of time and space



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