The Scottish Secretaries
The coverage of the Smith Commission findings in today’s press is woeful pretty much across the board, regardless of where each paper’s allegiances sit. Right-wing Tory papers fume about the poor suffering English (without ever quite pinning down how England would lose out from the proposals) and rage bitterly at what they bizarrely interpret as hypocrisy on the part of the SNP for signing off on the report but then criticising it as inadequate.
(If it helps, chaps, try picturing yourselves as creditors of a bankrupt business being offered a CVA settlement of 10p in each pound owed. It’s better than getting nothing at all and you’d accept the offer, but you’d still be pretty unhappy, right?)
Meanwhile, the Daily Record continues its blitzkrieg bombardment of breathtakingly barefaced bullshot, attempting to simply overwhelm gullible readers by virtue of the sheer volume (in both senses of the word) of its spin and flat-out lies.
Thus the extremely sceptical reactions of civic Scotland, trade unions and business alike are portrayed under the headline that they all “welcome recommendations for further devolution to the Scottish Parliament”, with only a weaselly concession later on that in fact they’ve called the proposals inadequate and/or dangerous.
Over on the pro-independence side, meanwhile, the coverage is wonkish and dull, with The National devoting plenty of pages to the subject but completely failing to deliver any punch. Readers are faced with many dense walls of text but no snappy graphics or bullet-point lists or solid numbers to aid understanding, and the nadir is an Alan Bissett piece which opens facepalmingly with the admission that the author hasn’t actually read the report. (Maybe we’re just old-fashioned about that sort of thing.)
We’ve already had a go at a concise summary of the key points, but we thought we’d see if we could boil it down even further, and we think we’ve got it to a single sentence.
“The Smith Commission recommendations give Scotland significant power to spend money, but no power to create the money in order to spend it.”
Labour’s slow-witted shadow pensions minister Gregg McClymont had a difficult time on last night’s Scotland Tonight understanding the difference between “helping people into jobs” (the supposed aim of the Work Programme, the execution of which would be devolved) and “creating jobs”. But it’s not terribly complicated.
In order to help someone get into a job, there first has to BE a job for them to be helped into. There are all sorts of ways you can help an unemployed person take a job, but first someone has to be offering it. The Smith Commission offers no way for the Scottish Government to create jobs, because it reserves all corporate powers.
Reducing personal income tax doesn’t create any jobs – because it’s a tax on the employee, not the employer – so you can fiddle with it all you like without producing anything. Income tax only applies to people who already have jobs, which was why Lord Smith struggled and dodged on the same programme when Bernard Ponsonby tried to nail him down on what actual useful effect his recommendations could have.
And the same principle applies to wealth more generally, because ultimately all wealth is generated from employment. You could have every power on the statute book, but if you’ve only got 25p in the state piggybank you can’t actually do anything with them. (Because you can’t hire any civil servants to implement your plans.)
So even where the Smith report would give Holyrood theoretically wide-ranging powers, they’re useless in practice. For example, while the income tax personal allowance remains reserved to Westminster, Holyrood could (so far as we can tell) exercise de facto control over it by, say, creating a zero band that covered the difference between the current allowance and the minimum wage for a full-time job.
That would lift anyone on minimum wage out of income tax entirely, and be a step towards wealth redistribution and social justice. The problem is that the equation has two sides, and the money to pay for that move has to come from somewhere. Lacking power over corporate taxation (in either direction), the pursuit of tax evaders or large areas of expenditure like defence, Holyrood would have almost no means to generate the cash needed to finance the policy, and it would fail.
The same applies to the new powers to create new benefits or “top up” existing ones. It’d be all very well saying “You now have the power to create a new Scotland-specific income-support benefit to lift the low-paid up to a living wage”, but once again Smith offers no means to pay for it – the only option for revenue generation is to increase personal income taxes, and as countless people have already pointed out, that’s just not practical in an effectively unitary state where those you’re trying to tax can easily move 100 miles down the road to save thousands of pounds a year.
(The counterpoint is to suggest CUTTING the higher rates of tax to lure wealthy English people north, but then you risk triggering the “race to the bottom” that’s given as the reason for refusing to devolve Corporation Tax, and the political uproar would be ruinous to whichever party tried it, again rendering it impossible in practice.)
The only proposal which has the potential to make a real economic difference and generate extra money is the devolution of Air Passenger Duty, which is presumably why Labour didn’t want it devolved and have already called for it to be nullified.
The Smith Commission’s recommendations, an attentive observer might therefore conclude, have been specifically designed to create theoretically significant levers of government which can’t actually be pulled. It’s a situation described by the novelist, academic and human-rights activist Ariel Dorfman as:
“Responsibility without power, the fate of the secretary through the ages.”
And “secretary” is a pretty accurate assessment of the role the Smith report bestows on the Scottish Government. It has to manage all the admin, but can make none of the important decisions. It has freedom in the sense that any secretary is free to do a bad job, but only in the knowledge that they’ll soon be fired (by voters) if they do.
There’s nothing wrong with being a secretary, of course. But Scotland has just been left in no doubt whatsoever as to who the boss is.
“with The National devoting plenty of pages to the subject but completely failing to deliver any punch. Readers are faced with many dense walls of text”
Didn’t want to say but they are going to have a lot better than this. Maybe they’re going for the neutral thing but if that’s the case, they cant call themselves pro Scottish independence but nice neutrals being nice to all parties. And that’s just what teamGB really needs, another bunch of journalists being nice to it while they’re trousering our money.
So what we have a is a lovely wrapped present but there’s nothing in the box.
Westminster, keeping your actual homegrown parly toothless since 1999.
It does what it says on the tin.
“It has to manage all the admin, but can make none of the important decisions. It has freedom in the sense that any secretary is free to do a bad job, but only in the knowledge that they’ll soon be fired if they do.”
Certainly this expresses what has been worrying me ever since the SNP got their majority: Unionists have been working out not so much how to get their own people a majority in the Scottish parliament and into government, but how to make sure that when the SNP get in next time, they’ll be a disaster and super unpopular. Then they’ll ‘be fired’. Ideally, they can later have a referendum on whether to close down the parliament, or reduce its powers (power to the LabCon councils anyone?)
Its the same with the welfare powers. You can put powder on the pockmarked face but actually do anything about the second worst system in the developed world, nah.
And it was purely a Tory thing, they didn’t want IDS and his, and their, incompetence exposed for the shambles that the National Insurance Fund and Universal Credit are.
The organisations in Civic Scotland, and the STUC, actually need to do something when the DR makes up a story about what they said.
There is always something wishy washy about their responses. The give “representations” or are” working fully with”. They need to get together and tell the DR if you won’t print the truth we will sue you.
I am afraid that is my opinion of the National too. Though I feel obliged to support it anyway. I subscribed to five days online and can’t get access, or anyone to reply to me, including asking the letters editor to pass it on.
I was intending to support it online and buy the paper as well just to help them.
I did think that, as Stu confirms, that the power to create new benefits was a nonsense without the power to create more wealth (because you’d need to take it away from another form of welfare, surely, and then it’s just fiddling at the margins and re-naming things pointlessly). I wasn’t sure if I was correct, though, so I am pleased to read this and feel surer that it is an utter nonsense.
O/T
Indeed, the National may well have to be a bit more ‘gung-ho’. I like it, but do feel that it is ‘tabloid’ by definition of its size, rather than because of its style. It might well be a bit too ‘wonk-ish’ to appeal to a lot of people. Don’t get me wrong, they need to do proper analysis rather than making up nonsense like the DR, but positive, strong headlines (and graphs, like Stu suggests) are the sorts of things that might help visualise things and can be emotive. If you are behind independence, show it with powerful language and headlines (for all it’s utter crap they are spouting, the unionist papers manage this….the National needs to learn to do ‘aghast’ when unionist policies are bare-faced cheek).
” So what we have a is a lovely wrapped present but there’s nothing in the box.”
Nah Drew, we gave them the lovely wrapped present in September. It’s called Scotland. They’ve just taken it and removed us from their mailing list.
Westminster are still taking £Billions from Scotland.
£490Billion tax revenues raised in the UK. £53Billion raised in Scotland. Scotland has lost £4Billion in Oil tax revenues, since 2011. Billions? In tax revenues from commercial activity in Scotland going through City of London HQ’s.
Scotland would need control of spending (Trident/illegal wars, tax on ‘loss leading’ drink) to be in surplus.
Migration is a result of Westminster policies. Lack of proper banking regulation and destabilising Wars.
Vote SNP/Alliance 7/5/15
It appears to be panic and outrage in the English press. The Independent is a case in point.
link to tinyurl.com
I believe that the London centric media just has a huge problem dealing with change that is not controlled by London. The Westminster system is incredibley “Conservative” in it’s behaviours and any hint of significant change will produce a knee jerk reaction.
What is obvious is that Labour is on the back foot with this and being played like a puppet by the Tories.
The necessity to clarify the situation to others breeds little hope!
And there you have it, it’s the vague nature of the VOW itself actually played out from document to reality.
Sorry for O/T but some good news…
Angus Robertson
SNP Gain from Tories: Congrats to Ross Cassie of @theSNP who won in Aberdeenshire Council Troup by-election, miles ahead of Con, LD & Lab.
the WProg is set up to create the impression that something is being done about unemployment, and to blame the unemployed for not being in work.
the reality is that the WP is significantly worse in achieving job outcomes than doing nothing.
(5% as opposed to 17% the dwp expects under one’s own steam)
it’s a box ticking exercise.
the smith com is the same, in that it creates an impression/perception something has changed/being done when in fact nothing has changed or indeed being done.
it’s words produce no action, produce nothing, except a lot of hot air.
it therefore allows business as usual, and of course no shift in power.
the problem with the UK local economy ie the one that affects most of us is; banks, bankers, and the market have too much power over our economy, and until that changes nothing will change.
Has Gordon Brown put his opinion of the findings on public record yet? Future Historians will no doubt want to scrutinize his overall impact on proceedings and a detailed comment at this stage would be invaluable!
Bought my first copy of The National today, and was quite impressed with it actually (I had low expectations) but thought if they’ve got a bloody article by Andrew Tickel in there (taking time off from worrying about mires, or whatever lights his peat stack) then why didn’t they ask Stu to write an analysis for them?
For goodness sake, they could just pay to recycle the WoS articles here, like Iain Macwhirter does in reverse on his blog sometimes.
Wings
As i mentioned in my recent tweet you are missing the point.
Income tax and VAT are the major tax receipt generators so having all income tax receipts ring fenced for Scotland and 50% of VAT is a good base to start something. Revenue is not generated by fiddling with tax rates, it is generated by increasing the activities that are taxed.
If the aim is to work hard collectively to improve the lot of the Scottish people then the Smith Commission proposals provide a route to achieving that.
Lord Smith described himself as ‘Santa’s Little Helper’. Which begs the question, ‘Who is Santa’? David Cameron? David Cameron yesterday stated that he was ‘very pleased’ with the Smith Report. That does not bode well for the people of Scotland. Anything Cameron approves is not approved by Scots.
Also on the Smith Report, I do wish that the news media would report that the Smith Report is not enshrined in law but purely recommendations. These recommendations need to be voted on by a completely new UK Govt (both the Commons & Lords) which won’t take place until sometime after the GE of 7th May 2015. There is no obligation on any new govt to do anything at all about the Smith Report, and even if the new UK govt does decide to implement some or all of the Smith Report, there is no set timetable on this either. e.g. I attach a letter from Ed Balls, Michael Dugher and Chuka Umunna to the Chancellor, Secretary of State for Transport and Secretary of State for Business, on Air Passenger Duty, sent before the ink on the Smith Report had even dried:
Dear Chancellor, Secretary of State for Transport and Secretary of State for Business,
We are writing to you regarding a specific issue that now arises following the conclusion of the Smith Commission on Scottish Devolution.
All of our parties support the Smith Commission conclusions and its principle that implementation should “not cause detriment to the UK as a whole nor to any of its constituent parts.” and ”cause neither the UK Government nor the Scottish Government to gain or lose financially simply as a consequence of devolving a specific power”
It is important that, in implementing the Smith recommendations in relation to Air Passenger Duty, this principle is upheld. This means ensuring that English Regional Airports are not disadvantaged.
English Regional airports cannot be faced with continuing uncertainty and risk through not knowing whether they will be significantly disadvantaged should a future Scottish Government introduce changes to Air Passenger Duty.
It is therefore imperative that the UK Treasury leads work across Government – and working with the Scottish Government – on a mechanism to ensure that English airports, particularly in the North of England, are not disadvantaged.
We would be grateful for confirmation that this work is underway.
Yours sincerely,
Ed Balls MP, Labour’s Shadow Chancellor; Michael Dugher MP, Labour’s Shadow Transport Secretary; Chuka Umunna MP, Labour’s Shadow Business Secretary.
Ends
And so it begins. Air Passenger Duty will NEVER be devolved, as it is not in the interest of English regions. Westminster will undoubtedly apply this test to the whole of the Smith Report, in one guise or another, as devolving more power to Scotland is simply not in Westminster’s interests.
Westminster has reverted to type and Scotland is now an irrelevance in the great scheme of things. This scenario was predicted by the Independence Movement before the Referendum and those who believed this would happen, voted YES. The 2 million NO voters now realise that they were duped. There will be no Federal state or Devomax as promised. The Better Together parties have had their one chance to show their integrity to Scotland. They have failed miserably but they think they have won.
fast approaching as we are the start of December, it is only 5 months and 1 week until the GE on 7 May 2015. Whatever the result of that election, the new UK govt only have one year to implement the Smith Report, before the Scottish Election on 5th May 2016. If they fail to implement the Smith Report, (which they will), the independence seeking parties in Scotland, SNP, Green, SSP, Labour For Independence, can all run on tickets stating if you vote for us, we will seek another Referendum or more radically, if you vote for us, we will declare UDI. If there is then a clear majority for these parties in 2016, we could be finally independent by 2017/18 at the latest. As far as I can see, this process is inevitable.
The DR, like Gordon Brown, is trying to wash their hands of this without seeing it through. The VOW talked of delivering powers, not producing a report. These are PROPOSALS only, with some like APD being proposed for the second time!! Thought NS was excellent yesterday in her response, it IS a predictably inadequate first offer. And why doesn’t the entire parliament join her in calling for the welfare powers to be devolved before cutting them by 20%? Only time will tell but with unionist denial of the public’s reaction to this they could see the polls swing further away from their desperate clammy fists.
Sorry for the double post – mistakenly posted at end of previous thread.
The following appears on the Better Together publication which was used to promote the “VOW” before the 18th September:
“By St Andrew’s Day we will have completed the consultation and published a White Paper which will set out the final agreed plans. These will be open to challenge and scrutiny.”
At the moment, these are still just “plans” which are “open to challenge and scrutiny.” So why are these prats strutting around saying that the vow has been delivered?
link to wingsoverscotland.com
The National, I think, is treading softly because it is treading on the dreams of Old Labour supporters, and what’s left of the Lib Dems. (W B Yeats)
It could come out, slashing these people round the heid with Independence rhetoric, but this is the demographic we need to win over, and not alienate. We already support independence, this demographic does not. Once The National has a loyal readership amongst this part of the electorate, it can become a bit more feisty.
Have yet to dip more than a toe into the Smith Commission but really the fact that this load of tripe has to go through a hostile Parliament doesn’t fill me with any hope that anything meaningful will emerge, and yes the National seems to be doing a Sunday Herald and having a problem with being Pro Independence. Ian MacWhirter, whose motivation I have yet to work out, seems to think that those people like Glen Campbell. Brian Taylor and James Cook were impartial during the referendum and it was all the fault of the nasty Metropolitan Journalists who were bussed in. So that will be okay Ian, while most of the rest of us felt that the fact that most of the existing BBC Staff should have recused themselves because they supported Labour and the Union and were in fact Party members or married to one.
Who knew that the UK Cabinet would have the opportunity to water down the recommendations of the Smith Commission?
Gary Gibbon of Channel 4 News has provided us with a summary of the final hours of panic amongst Westminster Tories.
link to blogs.channel4.com
The Smith Commission was never about achieving consensus among the Scottish parties/branch offices. The process was designed to kick any real power into the long grass.
No wonder John Swinney was less than enthusiastic.
Pam I agree but perhaps they should really remove the “supporting independence” bit. I certainly would prefer a newspaper which said it printed the truth, I am sure most of us would have given support for that, considering the lies most of them printed without a blush.
Although I thought the coverage was good on Smith today, you are right about the huge swathes of text. It wouldn’t have been difficult to create or source some graphics to illustrate the points from Smith & their effects.
I was also struck by the style of individual photos used. Arms folded (defensive posture) & eyes looking skyward as if for divine inspiration. They just seem to be unnatural poses.
On the other hand it is good that the National will continue & in doing so it will settle down to develop its own distinctive style given time & support. I have to say I do like the uncluttered appearance. It’s a good start to a paper that none of us envisaged ever happening.
As for Smith itself, it is very apparent where individual party interests took clear precedence over the needs of the people of Scotland. Now it will be up to the electorate to demonstrate their opinion of it.
My guess is that the many voters who are now energised & politicised will see through this sham piece of political theatre & see the Westminster parties for what they really are & that they have not the slightest interest in Scotland or its future. Their only interest is Party & the continuation of their good salaries well into the forseeable future.
MAY 2015-It will be Scotland’s turn to let those unionist MP’s know where they stand.
I do not think the National can win with some people.
Only problem with the devolved APD is that if Scottish Parliment reduce it, according to Smith Commision it then has to pay compensation to Westmonster! Not much of a revenue generation power there Rev. Para 87.
“Only problem with the devolved APD is that if Scottish Parliment reduce it, according to Smith Commision it then has to pay compensation to Westmonster! Not much of a revenue generation power there Rev. Para 87.”
I saw that yesterday. It’s very ambiguously worded, but I don’t THINK it’s supposed to mean that. I think it’s just about admin costs etc.
Excellent analogy, Stu. Hit the nail on the head.
A bit O/T but relevant as well.
What are the legal obligations of the Vow that has been given in the closing minutes of Indyref, denied by all political participants, but steadfastly stood by the DR and once again used in argument by the PM post Smith Commission?
Does it exist? Is it legally binding? Have better together broken a legal obligation to the people of Scotland? Can the people of Scotland now declare the Union null and void because of the breaking of the Vow?
There is a lot of anger and it will continue to grow as the penny drops as to how little the Smith ommission is offering in real terms. What are the implications of EVEL, something not included in the Vow?
I feel very strongly about this, but before I get my claymore from the thatch, I would like to know if I’m legally as well as morally right to do so. I feel that the latter is quite clear. There must be some sort of redress available through the Scottish courts, the UK Courts, EU Courts and even the UN. All better together parties have denied FOI requests to produce the Vow, which means either it doesn’t exist or they are in breach of the law. If it doesn’t exist. then they are guilty of deception at the least and treason to the Scottish people at worst.
James
what do more of the things that created the global capitalist, global warming/dimming mess that we are now in, you mean?
no, we have to do things very much differently than we are currently doing; ie with land rights, perma-culture, eco-villages and eco-homes, get rid of trident etc etc, so that we are taxed far less, is the way forward imo.
Today’s edition of The National is heavy on the inadequacy of the Smith Commission Agreement. It’s coverage is very different from all the other papers. It’s still based on using no extra staff so give it a chance. It has confirmed it is continuing on Monday so presumably will be recruiting the extra staff needed.
James: “Revenue is not generated by fiddling with tax rates, it is generated by increasing the activities that are taxed.
If the aim is to work hard collectively to improve the lot of the Scottish people then the Smith Commission proposals provide a route to achieving that.”
And which powers in the Smith Commission would achieve that? Creating more jobs in road sign replacement?
The National newspaper should call a spade a spade. We lost the referendum by tip toeing through the debate. The last thing we need is a neutral paper portraying itself as one of independence. Get the finger out National or I for one will not be buying a neutral paper.
Just a gentle reminder.
There are only 160 days until the General Election. Our unionist colleagues have already left their suicide notes in the Vow and the Myth. Body and soul they are rotting from within, each utterance confirms their desperation and fear.
It is up to us to dispatch them to their appointed and much deserved resting place, footnotes in history claiming JSA or scrambling for seats on the red benches.
Agree, the National really could do with having some stuff from Stu – hard-hitting, and emotive. It’s missing that. Same goes for cartoons by likes of Greg Moodie and Chris Cairns. Need some irreverence, as otherwise there is a danger that it will go down the road of providing a space for politicos and ‘respectable but dull’ types on the indy side rather than reflecting all the talent the indy side has. If nothing else, some fire (and humour) will stop the whole paper being a bit ‘one-paced’ and (possibly, for some people) overly twee.
@Roberto Esquierdo
The National newspaper should call a spade a spade. We lost the referendum by tip toeing through the debate. The last thing we need is a neutral paper portraying itself as one of independence. Get the finger out National or I for one will not be buying a neutral paper
I do not recognise your name. Is this your first post on here? Why do I get the feeling you people are trying to trash the National. I wonder what the motives are?
I’m more impressed than I thought I’d be with the National. Could do with a couple of columnists with some bite, just to turn some heads and get people talking. A little more aggressive stance on the big issues would go a long way in the high street, but all in all for a first week, no bad.
The Daily Record’s predicament highlights the problems of a media organ putting itself into the story. By being the messengers of The Vow, their own credibility is now bound together with the success or failure of it. Therefore, it’s in their interests to claim it has been fulfilled, because if people think it’s failed, that means the Record has also failed.
It was a massive blunder. The rest of the unionist media can stand back and criticise the people involved in making up The Vow (emphasis on can), but the Record can’t, thereby robbing them of any pretence of impartiality. So regardless of how badly it fails, they’ll tell people it didn’t.
Hence why we had the sight today of Labour holding a press conference with the Daily Record’s “delivered” graphic in the background. If they weren’t already one and the same, they most certainly are now.
Okay, go easy on me here. This is my first comment on here since the 19th of September. I’m struggling with loving Scotland again, and have fallen under the radar until yesterday. Now everyone is taking the piss out of Smith’s recommendations, especially the road signs one. However, I think that could be one of the most powerful ‘non-power’ we get. Why? Because used correctly, it can separate us from the rest of the UK. I’m talking about binning Transport as a typeface. Nothing quite says you’re in another country like all the signage changing…
At the Edinburgh Green Party branch meeting last night, one of the Green members of the commission gave some interesting insights as to the process inside the Smith Commission. Drafts of the report up until Tuesday were looking much better (as evidenced by press reporting up until then and the subsequent leaking of some drafts). Control over Universal Credit was to be included, for example. Many of the more meaningful powers were pulled on Tuesday, possibly by the Treasury.
@crisiscult
So we need to make sure the SNP take local council seats too then.
🙂
We are still being attacked for not appreciating the crumbs thrown from the table.
They can give more, less or deny completely as they see fit.
Why should I say thank you for having part of the wealth of my nation returned?
No matter what thay give never forget they retain control and can change the rules anytime they wish.They dominate the Commons and the Lords.
Power devolved is power retained – keep that in mind.
Doug
You don’t need government powers to work hard, you just do it. Make something and sell it to the rest of the UK or Europe, art, music, books, whiskey, furniture, financial services etc etc. This will create the extra revenues needed to address the effects of austerity.
The proposal means that endeavour will create extra tax revenues for Scotland.
Re: “Over on the pro-independence side, meanwhile, the coverage is wonkish and dull, with The National devoting plenty of pages to the subject but completely failing to deliver any punch.”
Is it just me, or does anyone else think the whole ‘National’ set-up is a huge con?
Sorry, can’t agree with the view in the blog and the commentators above that The National didn’t deliver today.
I think the first 10 pages are very good. The juxtaposition of presenting positive statements on the report from the unionist members of the Commission with a damning analysis from almost every other contributor works well.
I think the paper has improved every day and if you picked up the copy today you would know it was definitely pro indy, and wouldn’t think it had been in publication for less than a week.
I’m hooked.
The editor of the National said now that it is going to be long term they will increase the content.
Agree Jim, I thought it was good as well, think the criticism is very harsh
I partly agree about the rather bland cover of the text by the National. At the same time, one must not forget that the editorial team during this trial week was probably very wee, living not much time for in-house analysis (which is blatantly lacking). They chose to make up for this by gathering as many external reactions as they could. That’s a fair way to pull it off, but it obviously lacks punch.
Richard Walker and his staff deserve a huge thank you from independence supporters imo.
Johnny says:
28 November, 2014 at 1:08 pm
“Agree, the National really could do with having some stuff from Stu – hard-hitting, and emotive. It’s missing that.”
Have you contacted and suggested this to The National?
__________________
@ Nana Smith,
Thank you for that wee bit of good news (@ 12.34pm).
Where did you hear/see this news?
Is it a sign of things to come?
🙂
If anyone really ain’t happy with the National,
feel free to purchase a Daily Record tomorrow.
Thanks for the article – I think it’s becoming pretty clear how useless the proposals actually are.
On the personal allowance, I too was wondering why the hell they wouldn’t just devolve the power. I’m just going to repost what I said (late) last night:
(start)Someone on BBC Scotland radio today, when pressed as to why the personal allowance will remain reserved, said it didn’t matter as the Scottish Government could just introduce a 0% rate band. Sounds like a perfectly reasonably answer until you think of the intricacies around the personal allowance – apart from age allowance, blind persons allowance etc (small beans) the biggie is the claw back for those earning over £150,000. If ScotGov wanted to increase the personal allowance, then it would disproportionally benefit those earning the most. Where have we heard that before?(stop)
Let’s say the ScotGov wanted to do something really bold and increase the personal allowance by £10,000. That £10,000 would never be clawed back. Higher rate taxpayers would save 45% whilst basic rate taxpayers would save 20% (or whatever rates were set). A mechanism which was introduced to ensure that those earning >£150,000 would not benefit from the accelerated increases in the PA since the coalition came in power, will not be available.
Would it really be surprising if Labour brought up this point if the SNP introduced a policy like that? I wouldn’t put it past them.
Don’t get me wrong I think that The National is excellent in conception and impressive in execution, I just think that a bit of variety of pace, for example by getting Rev Stu to write for it once in a while (or regularly) would help to spice things up a bit.
There is nothing like a bit of controversy and hard hitting analysis to get circulation numbers up… plus a hell of a lot of people know about this place, and if there can be adverts for Bella Caledonia and the YESbar in there, why not the best advert of all from Wings, an article or few by the man himself.
Call me cynical but bbc Scotland news done a story on the Clutha bar accident last year and made sure they used footage of Jim Murphy acting the hero. In my humble opinion Jim Murphy in that footage looks like he’s out his nut on Ching.
@Stoker
Snp twitter.
[…] The Scottish Secretaries […]
Regarding the National.
Like the Sunday Herald they have to attract others outside the YES movement. We need more support and i believe any voice out there regardless of it’s faults is a positive for us all. Every paper i have seen says the “vow” has been delivered , except the National who state on their front page “it’s not enough”
Such a breath of fresh air compared to the DR and like.
Don’t buy it if you think it’s rubbish, Most YESSERS will buy it because we recognise we need any and all voices now. Folk still feel iffy over the SH where it’s daily print unionist shite continually.
Give it a few months and see it grow . The team running the National are limited and now it’s confirmed as staying put, we should give it our support and TIME .
The YES movement is inclusive . The National have declared their support , let’s include them in our family too. It’s not Wings or Bella but then again what is ??
Patience folks 🙂
James
the thatcherite dream (nightmare) come true.
if only we’d have listen to you 35yrs ago we wouldn’t be in recession now.
welcome to UCredit and the principle of doing more hours; ie underemployment.
the smith com is designed to do as you say it does, and delivers nothing new.
@ Shuggy
Of course it’s a con. They’re doing what they’re doing to make money & prop up their other publications. It’s certainly not due to any principled stand. If tits on page 3 were still in vogue, guess what…
I thought the National’s front page was pretty clear
Its Not Enough!
Compare that with The Mail and our very own Rodent’s offering.
Excellent result in Aberdeenshire. 46% of the vote in what was a Tory seat with the Tory candidate on about 23%.
Relating to the smith fudge this is quite long but thought someone may like to peruse…
link to opendemocracy.net
I mentioned yesterday that the National could do with a weekly opinion/comments page from the Rev/Wings. Along the lines of Joan McAlpine MSP has at the Daily Record.
He hasn’t replied to me yet, so I’ll take that as a “mibees aye, mibees naw”.
I also think the National has to brighten up their pages, more colour.
There is a gap in the market because of falling unionist slanting paper’s sales, so why not try to make it more like the Daily Record, only with a Scottish Independence theme running through it.
It should have more hard hitting headlines and be a lot brighter.
The market it out there for it. Someone said earlier that it should settle for 50,000 sales a day, why?
If it is set up correctly it could sell over 100,000 a day.
I don’t think it matters a jot what powers we have been granted, it is unlikely that we will see anything running the gauntlet of Westminster unscathed, the more the unionist media and Unionist parties trumpet success the more agitated the Westminster hornets’ nest will be.
The road to independence won’t be taken in small legislative steps slowly edging towards independence before the final jump is no more than a stride, independence will be achieved due to the collapse of the union on constitutional grounds starting with the implementation of EVEL.
It puzzles me why Cameron is determined to implement EVEL other than pacifying his rebellious back benchers and disadvantaging Labour it will ring the death Nell for the union, is party politics now more important that the union he just fought so hard to retain?
We mustn’t lose sight of the overall benefits of the National, despite inevitable teething problems and attacks.
Ye we need a Stu for quality research and analysis and also some lighter touches. I suppose it will have to acquire some humour later. Man cannot live on mince alone. I failed to have a letter replying to the excellent article on sectarianism and an article on the anniversary of John MacLean’s death on St Andrew’s Day and his relevance in pioneering for an Independent Socialist Scotland. Forgive me for plugging this forthcoming event. Some Wingers may wish to attend.
The annual JOHN MACLEAN COMMEMORATION will take place on Sunday 30 November 2014.
Meet 1pm at Eastwood Cemetery, Thornliebank Road Next to Thornliebank Railway Station, for short Graveside orations from Gerry Cairns (John Maclean Society) and Alan Stewart (International Officer, SRSM).
There will then be a march from opposite the cemetery gates Thornliebank Rd. Boydston Rd to the John Maclean Cairn at Shawbridge Arcade. The march will move off at 1.30pm prompt.
This will then be followed by a social/rally with speakers at the Shawbridge Tavern, 231 Shawbridge St.
The lively band “Usquebaugh” will be
playing.
Anne Gomez, the Scottish folk singer (her recent album “Roch the Wind” includes the John Maclean March) has offered to sing.
And there will be a magician, Amazin’ Jason Kelly.
Please support this event.
Admission £5. Children Free. All pro Independence banners welcome.
http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org
link to scottishrepublicans.myfreeforum.org
Dear Rev.
I just know that Wings are the very people in their painstaking way they have to do this task……
Everything I’ve heard or read to date (with a few exceptions) on the Smith Commission have failed to get across just how little has been offered in terms of content and finance compared to what ‘the vow’ was.
Time for a graphic surely?????????
I don’t think words do it, but a memorable graphic along the lines of comparison by area should reflect what has happened. words or endless lists in a narrative just wont do it!
Please.
Humbly yours,
@Muttley79
Roberto Esquierdo has posted here before
Stoker:
Yes, I have. Found myself with time to email them today and wrote thanking them for their efforts and making a couple of suggestions (whilst acknowledging that I don’t know their jobs and was only suggesting from an amateur perspective how they might attract even more readers and would keep buying personally).
I suppose I should be used to it by now, but it really amazes me that so many people are still so gullible when it comes to comprehending the enormous con trick that has been and continues to be played on the Scottish people.
The balance of the argument is so overwhelmingly in favour of independence. It is astonishing that allegiance to the post-imperial UK is still able to counter the arguments for us running our own affairs. In other words “We quite like being British and in the UK, because of our shared history and the tradition and for that reason we are going to overlook (not even listen to) arguments that we would be better off being independent, we would be safer, we would be more equal, we would be more civilised, we would have more influence in the world and most importantly we would run our own affairs.
And then Smith comes along. It is really just a sophisticated con. In fact it’s not even that sophisticated. You just need to look at the topics where the commission has used the word “reserved” to see that if it is important, then we are not going to be allowed to control it. They are letting us control the unimportant stuff only. The whole thing is patronising in the extreme.
How do we get the 55% to see this?
I simply cannot believe the country continues to be humped stupid by our imperial masters, and people are sniping at the FIRST AND ONLY daily to forthrightly state it supports Indy, and even if it’s classed as neutral that is a HUGE step.
Do as Luigi says, and support the Rancid.
Can people not look beyond their own wishes, and see this paper could win over new people to Indy, but not by smacking them around the head?
I was at the Hydro, and heard Richard Walker, the Editor, speak with passion about growing the movement to 70%. This is a marathon, not a sprint. There are calls every single day on here for another referendum, and we would lose it. This is a time to work to GE15 not screeching about the National being neutral or not aggressive enough. You are working against the bigger picture.
The way I look on the Smith recommendations is this:
We’re now allowed to fully depress the clutch in our little car, but we’re still not allowed to touch the brake or the accelerator.
In a nutshell, don’t get mad, get even.
If, as the BBC suggest, the UK Cabinet filleted the Smith Commission on Tuesday prior to publication would it be possible to find out what Smith wanted to implement? I think the voters need to see how committed our Dave was to his Vow and how much lipstick the Record is applying to the pig.
Misteralz said:
Love it! Brilliant!
fred blogger
I agree it is the capitalist way and might well not be the best way forward but the article suggests that without the ability to change corporate taxes then there is no power to “create money”. Dropping corporate taxes to encourage footloose businesses to relocate to Scotland is a very capitalist suggestion and in reality is just a race to the bottom game with other European Countries.
The only way to really increase tax revenues in the system we have is through endeavour, business creation etc and the Smith proposals offer a route for Scotland to benefit from such activity.
I am only pointing this out as saying “The Smith Commission recommendations give Scotland significant power to spend money, but no power to create the money in order to spend it” is misleading as no additional power over and above the devolution of income tax and VAT is needed.
James
If we produce more whisKY, sell more insurance, etc., nearly all the revenue goes direct to Westminster:- excise duty- not devolved, corporation tax- not devolved, other half of VAT- not devolved, NIC on increased jobs- not devolved.
We get to keep income tax from the workers’ wages, the bosses sign off on some tax avoidance, and Westminster benefits from the reduction in jobs seekers’ benefits- not devolved.
This kind of working harder is like filling a barrel with a sieve, but working smarter – independence – would have given us the power AND incentive to use a bucket at least.
HandandShrimp,
Given that the BBC claim to have had the draft before it went to cabinet then it has been published and should be available by FOI.
Nana Smith
i’m not a member of the SNP but i do support anyone who will bring indyscot.
imo the SNP saw that was going to be the only offer on the table, and could be even further diluted until it was officially announced, which it was.
they also know it is merely a recommendation.
a good solid house structure, which we already have, but where’s the roof, windows and doors?
“oh, you have to provide them,” he say’s.
tantalis lives.
Notable that the BBC is reporting on the bit nobbled by the Tories (welfare) , but saying nothing about Labour’s efforts (crippling the tax proposals). Notable, but entirely unsurprising.
James
perhaps you’re going round in circles and in order to break this loop see the work of the common weal.
My first time commenting here…
@Doug and @james: as James said, there are many ways the Scottish government can boost growth and thus income tax revenue. Investing in infrastructure, supporting business with an effective regulatory regime, promoting tourism, etc. This is in fact something which the Scottish government is doing very well. The question then, is whether Scotland will get to keep the extra tax that arises from the extra income. I wish I knew the answer to this, but there are two paragraphs that in my view seem to be contradicting each other on this.
First, para 95(2) says the “Scottish budget should benefit in full from policy decisions that increase revenues(…)”
But in para 78, the scot gov will receive all income tax “with a corresponding adjustment in the block grant”
And in para 95(3)(a) “… The future growth in the reduction to the block grant should be indexed appropriately”.
Does anyone know what the combined meaning of these paragraphs is? If the scottish mainland economy grows faster than the rest of the UK, which there is good reason to think it will, will scottish taxpayers benefit? Or will it just lead to a corresponding reduction in the block grant? This is something I think you should look into Stu, as it makes the whole difference between a “secretary” parliament and a (partially) reponsible parliament.
Re the national I’m with muttley79 – give them a break FFS.
I get the feeling that the editor was up against it and may have put his head above the parapet to get it going.
Of course the owners are only interested in making money but at least we now have a weekly paper which is different from the rest. Richard Walker did say they will get more journalists in if it got the go-ahead which it has.
The Rev and WoS were mentioned twice yesterday in the letters page.
As for finding out that the cabinet could intervene in the Smith commission, that did surprise me that they would openly admit that.
Nice to see that the National gets criticism where needed, McPravda indeed.
So the unelected lords recommendations were severly watered down only 2/3 days before release,the whole thing is a joke flung together because it will simply be talked out and ignored by Westminster anyway. Pointless.
Fine article Rev. Chapeau!
I keep saying it, we’re tax collectors, but now the Brits can blame us for not doing anything with the tax we collect, coz all we’re doing is saving some people in Englishland some work: Simples.
Re APD there is no way the WM/Treasury is going to allow the SG to cut this with a consequential effect on (centralised) tax take without saying that will be deducted from the Barnett grant.
And to be frank that would only be fair (in this narrow context). ~Reducing or abolishing APD is only logical if it increases traffic and benefits the airlines, the airports and consequently business/tourism? We can complain about lots of things but not this`???
What are the ‘job creating powers’ the Scottish Government want?
I have hunted the net but no joy. Governments don’t create jobs, the private sector does. The Government’s job is to create an economic climate that encourages investment and job creation. Two very different things.
Perhaps I’m missing something? Willing to be educated.
The worst thing that The National could do right now is acquiesce to the whims of political anoraks like us.
We are not their target audience, guys. Normal people are. “Hard-hitting” and “emotive” reports that don’t “tip-toe” around “the facts” is the attitude that kept the SNP buried as a fringe party for 30 years.
Stuart, for all his excellent reporting, should not be anywhere near it.
Disappointed to see Kate Higgins getting so much space but I suppose some people like the stuff she writes and if it brings in readers it’s not to be sneezed at.
TD says:
How do we get the 55% to see this?
This is the big problem, first up is people buying into the Capitalist idea that greed and wealth comes before everything else.
You only have to look at the news today,
on the one hand last night and today people are fighting in supermarkets for cut price goods,One woman even had her arm broke FFS..
And on the other some folk go out to work all week and can’t feed their weans.
How do we fix that.
Another instance of power devolved being power retained. Scotland only has as much freedom as Westminster will allow.
A good comment above the latest red/blue tory ruse about devolving power to local authorities, a sure way to undermine any future SNP government at Holyrood.
Dave Robb
I know what you mean but the problem is there are 55% who need convincing.
If the country generates increased income tax and VAT revenues over and above what Barnett would have given, people will be more convinced that Scotland can prosper as an independent country and the people who were coerced by the Fear campaign will move to independence. If it goes the other way then there will be trouble (which is probably what the unionist parties want and expect).
I agree with Muttley about The National.
I haven’t bought a newspaper in years, except the occasional Guardian which I can’t bring myself to buy now after their racist cartoons and comment during the referendum campaign. It’s too London centric.
So I’m delighted to have a newspaper again and hope it continues and grows adding more features as soon as possible such as regular columns by national figures (Alex Salmond, Patrick Harvie, Lesley Riddoch, Derek Bateman, Andy Wightman etc etc), WOS columns with back catalogue updates – plenty to choose from, cartoons, crossword, listings, etc.
Business for Scotland has many maps and graphics which would help readers visualise issues such as where Scotland’s wealth goes
link to businessforscotland.co.uk
Having now digested the Smith proposals my stomach is retching and my mouth coated with a bitter aftertaste.
Votes for 16/17 year olds (surely on the way across the UK anyway), APD and control over fracking are just sugar coating for the toxic cocktail at the core: An inert and unusable power over income tax and nothing to generate revenue, create jobs or redistribute wealth. I suppose the hope must be that people will understand this and/or its passage through Westminster (after May next year, of course) will see it diluted to the extent people will look more closely, but clearly the perpetual propaganda machine is working flat out to head off any clear analysis or intelligent debate that might illuminate Smith’s serious shortcomings to ordinary folk.
Right now it feels very much like we’ve been bounced into buying into a cake of poison – and we’re the ones who have to eat it. Perhaps I’m not seeing the bigger picture, but is there any reason John Swinney, Linda Fabiani, Patrick Harvie and Maggie Chapman – all of whom I respect greatly – felt compelled to acquience to this puddle of bum-dribble?
David Lyon:
It’s my belief that ‘The National’ is anoraky at the moment. Those who say a lighter touch is needed in places to attract others are probably correct. The paper has been full of politicos and other ‘anoraks’ all week. This appeals to me just fine….but is it going to win over others? It’s ‘worthy’ but is it all a bit one-paced? All that said, at least we have a paper offering the pro-indy perspective, not something we had on a daily basis a mere week ago.
I wish some people on here would learn to take a bit of criticism of a certain article a bit better.
The National is not perfect, I think we are all agreed on that point. So to make it that bit better, you have to find out what exactly is wrong with it. You invite in some criticism. It’s known as constructive criticism.
I am sure the editor will be getting plenty of it from all over Scotland and hopefully, when he cherry picks all the best ideas that have been put forward, he will end up with the best published newspaper in Scotland.
So, c’mon lighten up a bit, please. accept criticism when it is put to you in the right context.
Smith is just a chapter in Cameron’s book of control
Anyone who has read the textbook “Politics and Population Control” soon to be published by Westminster Press, knows that the Smith Commission was merely a device.
Lord Smith’s Commission was set up purely to persuade the public at large and the DevoMax No voters in particular, that those in Government are actively and competently doing their job, which is to run the country, keeping their promises – and vows – and taking care of everything so that the electorate do not have to worry.
The passive spectator voter, is reassured by that and is happy to agree to the Government getting on with the job.
The voter may be unhappy that something has gone wrong, but as long as the Government promises to fix it, then the voter is pacified and able to get back to his everyday life.
Is Cameron really interested in the VOWS – no.
Is Cameron really interested in giving lots of devolved power to Scotland enabling the Scots to do much better- no.
What Cameron is interested in he has already got, which is Scottish revenues in a secure Union.
Remember, Cameron wants everything to settle down after the dust and noise of the Referendum. He said so before the Liaison Committee only last week.
Cameron is a simple man who enjoys the simple life which for him means extract as much money as possible from Scotland and give it to all his friends and supporters in London.
He is pissed off that the Scots have not gone back to sleep after IndyRef and as a result he has had to come up with something to help them get over it. Enter the Smith Commission.
This isn’t as complicated as thermo nuclear dynamics, but if you haven’t read Cameron’s book, it might feel like it.
It may have been Geo Wimpey who said ‘Rome wasn’t built in a day, only because I didn’t get the contract’ but the point is things take time – including the dissolution of the Treaty of Union 1707.
What times we are living in!
Aye Nana Smith, Angus Robertson’s twitter about the Troup Ward By-election.
Aberdeenshire by-election result:
LIB 141
SNP 1159
Lab 140
GRN 68
Ind 43
Ind 391
Con 574
SNP GAIN Troup ward from the Conservatives!
@Jackie G:
This is terrible, I agree. Decades and decades of propaganda and rote have stuffed in the mind of people that to be cool means to buy stuff your neighbour doesn’t own. Bling, tinsel, gizmos, baubles. Result: I see people over here squandering away their benefits to buy the latest TV set or smartphone, and their bairns eat noodles (when they can) the rest of the month.
That’s the credo of capitalism, and it has superseded the traditional Christian credos, those which were about sharing and compassion. Sometimes, albeit I’m not religious, it makes me really sick.
Oh hell Lab win Midlothian by election.
link to midlothianadvertiser.co.uk
On a turn out of 34%, this is where we need to watch.
It is always going to be harder to motivate people to vote for parties than the ref
Picture this scenario, the burgler breaks into your home and cleans out everything of value.
He’s caught but decides he’s only going to give you back 30% of your property.
You, reluctantly, settle for that, meantime.
However his ‘lawyer’ has to agree, and you may not get that 30%.
You are angry.
But wait, over the horizon comes a ‘masked avenger’, he is placing the final silver bullet, (vote), into the chamber and rides forward. Who is that ‘masked ‘ man? .
He is May,2015. Your votes are silver bullets. Take aim and be sure you hit the correct target.
The Smith Commission is nothing more than a mixture of the Calman Commission and The Scotland Act 2012.
As someone on Call Kaye said this morning,
“It’s a dummy to pacify Scotland”.
O/T but may be of interest -Gordon Brown backed down because he was scared of losing his seat-Huff Post
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk
just listening to “travelling folk,” catch up yesterday 27 11 14, what jim murphy said here on smith, 54mins in, may have been repeated during the day.
he said many of the 2m who voted no, voted for change and not the SQ.
“The Smith Commission recommendations give Scotland significant power to spend money, but no power to create the money in order to spend it”
This is an exact summary.
Liz
That was a tight squeeze. Only 70 votes in it. There isn’t much sign of an anti-SNP coalition in these transferable votes though (the one place you would expect to see it). The votes from the various rounds seem to go to a varied mix including the SNP.
[…] The coverage of the Smith Commission findings in today’s press is woeful pretty much across the board, regardless of where each paper’s allegiances sit. Right-wing Tory papers fume about the poor suffering English (without ever quite pinning down how England would lose out from the proposals) and rage bitterly at what they bizarrely interpret as hypocrisy on the part of the SNP for signing off on the report but then criticising it as inadequate. […]
I think it is a big story if the Cabinet filleted the Smith Commission proposals on Tuesday
1. How can the report be what the commission agreed if it’s really the Cabinet’s work?
2. It’s big news to me that the Cabinet was to be part if the Smith Commision. When was that anounced? Did I miss something?
I saw the editor of the National on the “Daily Politics” I think on Tuesday. During his interview he did make mention that they were working with a staff of eight. These eight jobs were NEW jobs and were not journalists taken from the Herald or Sunday Herald.
Whilst the National may not be everything that we wanted it is, in my view a start, and this is a hell of a lot more than we had in the lead up to the 18th Sept where we only had one Sunday paper. Now we have a Sunday paper AND a daily paper.
I hope and believe that, given time to properly develop, this paper can become more of the sort of paper most of us want to see. Remember also it only took three weeks from the initial discussions about starting this paper to the first production. Apparently this time scale is extremely short compared to a normal start up time scale.
Now that the National appears not to be going away anywhere perhaps NOW is the time for those of us who buy the paper to sit down and give serious consideration as to how we want the paper to present certain news items like, for example, more graphics when detailing the Smith Report. I believe the National have been trying to go down a different road from the other papers and possibly made a conscious decision NOT to put graphics in their issue today because that would be what every one else would be doing.
As far as the idea of proposals in the DRAFT Smith report that did NOT make the final report here is the BBC’s take on things.
link to bbc.co.uk
@handandshrimp I agree it was tight but that’s all it takes in FPTP but it still amazes me at the number of folk who will vote for labour.
“The Scottish Secretaries”
OR
The Secretaries for Shafting Scotland
Seems more appropriate to me.
The National needs to be a bit more “tabloidy”, have some more human interest stories ie stuff that happens, good to see some tv content today but hope it’s not just kept for a Friday. Back to the dark ages though with a picture from the Celtic game with the caption “Celtic 1 Salzburg 2 after 60 minutes”, no final score as they’ve obviously had to go to print! Same reason presumably that there was no mention of Arthur Montford’s death until today.
For the seasoned tabloid buyer like myself, it will never be able to match the usual suspects for up to date football, that is unrealistic. Add in a bit of a dull presentation and no horse racing makes me fear that it will never tempt a large section of the populace. I wish them well and I will continue to buy it but I cannot see many non-independence folk buying it. Perhaps announcing that the new paper was sympathetic towards independence might have been a better tactic, rather that full out, Ok, just call us The Nat.
Good to see my local Sainsburys have about 30 on display this morning, as opposed to just 4 copies of The Scotsman. Was down a good bit later yesterday and they had about 10 on sale so it seems to be shifting well in Hamilton.
Liz
It wasn’t FPTP though, it was transferable vote. You pick 1,2,3 etc., The one with the least gets eliminated at each round. This one went right to the wire. The retiring councillor was billed as an independent but he had been a Labour man for over 40 years until he quit Labour last year. That fact that the SNP are battering at the door of such strongholds is incredibly encouraging and they won comfortably in Aberdeenshire earlier today in a Tory seat. There are no off limit areas any more.
When can we apply for the Road Sign job?…Seriously though i’m reading a lot of worried sounding people here and i can’t see why, We’re winning folks, after the Referendum there were tears all over, look at us now,100,000 members in the party, our own Newspaper,Highest we’ve ever been in the polls,about to slaughter Labour and Tories in May,Revenge of the “Sith Commission”? So what, it’s exactly what was expected,Alex Salmond on National TV in his Golf Gear taking the mickey out of Londinium. The 3 Amigos panicking left right and centre David Cameron rushing around putting out immigration fires, WELL! Idont know about you, but i’m FEELING GOOD.. DA DA, DA DA, DA DA
Dr Ew
The SNP and Scottish Greens had no choice but to take part in the Smith Commission after the No vote.
On the council by-elections it is probably worth noting that the Liberals are in a wee bit of bother.
Highland Shrimp
RE Midlothian to lose by only 70 votes in Labour heartland isn’t a bad result.
However there did not seem to be any appeal for help from Edinburgh etc during the campaign and I am sure that if done properly by knocking on doors the place could have been swamped with new keen SNP volunteers last weekend which could have easily persuaded another 75 people to vote SNP.
@muttley79
The SNP and Scottish Greens had no choice but to take part in the Smith Commission after the No vote.
I get there was little choice re. participation, but was there no option to disagree to its final recommendations? What about a minority report?
As others have said in various ways:-
We must assume that Lord Smith and his cross party commission know the meaning of what he has written, both before and after Cabinet editing.
We must also assume the same of the Cabinet itself.
So also the BBC, the DR, etc.etc.
They all must be aware of the huge difference between what was promised and what has been delivered.
And yet all of them have presented this report as if it was an announcement of a great success for Scotland even as they knew it was an abject failure.
These people are toying with the public in the way an egotistical adult would play ball with a young child in a manner so as to belittle the child while making the adult look clever.
I refuse to believe that any of them are sincere or are making any attempt whatsoever at being truthful.
This is the upper class in action – handing down their wise decisions to the ignorant peasant classes.
This is the British Empire addressing the uncivilised natives of the colony and handing out beads and trinkets in exchange for their land – and the wealth beneath it and on it. Some, laughing, accept the beads while others look on brooding.
The Smith Commission report is a reminder of the place they have given us.
It’s final sentence is ‘know your place’.
To the 2 million – nice beads.
On Call Kaye this morning, Kaye Adams repeatedly asked callers what they would spend the money on if the Scottish Government raised the income tax rate.
Yet at the very start of the programme, it was explained to her that it doesn’t matter how much you raise on taxes, it will be deducted from the funding we get from the Barnet Formula.
So, if you raise an extra £10million on higher taxes, you will be deducted £10million from the Barnet Formula.
The total gain in revenue after all that admin work is, ZERO. We will be no further forward and will not have one extra penny to spend on anything.
Call Kaye was being her usual naughty wee Labourite/ Blairite self.
Dad said The National was rubbish and he even went back to the shop to buy an Express. He likes their crossword. He said the politics stuff is good but won’t buy it again unless it make some changes and has a good crossword too.
“Dad said The National was rubbish and he even went back to the shop to buy an Express. He likes their crossword. He said the politics stuff is good but won’t buy it again unless it make some changes and has a good crossword too.”
My dad still buys the bloody Record for the crossword 🙁
(He gets The National too, though.)
Re the National creating new jobs I see that as a positive gain for Indy & makes a change from hearing only about job losses.
% results of local by-elections yesterday
SNP: 47%
Labour: 27%
Tory: 17%
Greens: 5%
Lid Dem: 4%
On the devolution of powers in relation to road signs, couldn’t we create filter lanes for unionist drivers who venture north of Carlisle, said filter lanes being equipped with obligatory u-turn signs diverting them back in the direction of somewhere they will all feel better together?
As stated in today’s National by Alan Bissett, page 12, the recommendations are just that: recommendations. They still have to run the twin gauntlets of the Commons and the Lords and it will be interesting to see how it all turns out. We’ll be lucky to be left with the paper the report is printed on.
I’m afraid it’s all typical Brit Newspeak. A lot is said but very little meant and the machinations are obvious. On the one hand, present the findings with the smiling Lord who oversaw the commission, and on the other hand make it so difficult for the SNP at Holyrood to actually change anything that it turns the population against them. It’s all an effort to undermine them and defeat them. The next General Election will be very interesting.
Another wee snippet of good news.
This from The Southern Reporter –
(a Scottish Borders weekly paper):
“Membership boost for SNP”
“Hawick and District Branch of the SNP says its membership has soared from a pre-referendum 43 to a current 200. Branch convener Gail Hendry said: This is a clear indication that the people of Hawick want change. We are no longer going to settle for Tory or Lib Dem representation just because it’s aye been.”
Thought we had Mid Lothian East and pretty pissed off by the turnout. 🙁
I took 5 others with me in the pouring rain and voted only one choice SNP. Losing by 70 is a downer. Who in their right minds would vote for Labour now. They are a toxic bunch of chancers who answer to WM only.
Sometimes i think we ARE buttoned up the back.
@ HandandShrimp and Liz, long time since I took an interest in East Lothian politics but I was at the count for the General Election in 1979, counting. Alex Eadie the local Labour candidate, ex miner and trade union leader was a sure thing. So sure that they announced the result while one table was still counting. No deposits were lost, no one complained and we were home by a reasonable hour.
Still looks a difficult seat for SNP and it would take a swing of the proportions recent polls have seen. Here`s hoping.
link to bbc.co.uk
“Meanwhile, Labour leader Ed Miliband repeated his pledge to implement the Smith Commission’s recommendations as he addressed an audience of Labour supporters in Glasgow on Friday morning.
Mr Miliband said: “A vow was signed during the referendum campaign. It was sealed by the votes of the Scottish people. It was delivered by the Smith Commission.
“It has been signed. It has been sealed. It has been delivered. Elect a Labour Government in May and we will implement the Smith Commission in our first Queen’s Speech. This is my promise to the people of Scotland.”
Alex was voted Politician of the Year.
The vote for Liar of the Year is not finished yet.
The front runners are Brown, Darling, Milliband, Murphy and Cameron.
But the full list of contenders is very long indeed.
I think it might just be a dead heat between those five.
Council elections / by-elections. I’d say people still mostly vote the person, not the party. I certainly used to until the last election when I wanted a change from NOC Labour to NOC SNP, just as much as anything, to see if it made any difference! Basically no (North Ayrshire Council), but I didn’t say that 🙂
Many of those who are posting criticisms of the National seem to think that there is something wrong about the owners making money from it, and implying that it is a “con”.
Personally I hope they make lots of money to the extant that is the country’s most successful paper.
If that happens perhaps other capitalist newspaper owners will follow.
Remember what Adam Smith said – “It is not from the benevolence of the baker that we get our daily bread, but because he needs to make a profit”
It may be a little dull and earnest at the moment but that will change as they react to reader’s comments.
What we all need to do is refer to the smith commission as
DEVO MINCE
facebook, twitter in the streets and online
make it a sort of catchphrase so normal people can see where we are coming from..
Stoker
I got an email from my branch today, saying that with the increase in membership it is clear the current organisation of the branch and its activities no longer fits!
Which is good as I did wonder why so little activity. But it begs the question, how could they reorganise to take advantage of growing from 79 to 300+ at the last count, and probably more? Forums? Facebook I don’t do, so what coould they do to keep the enthusiasm?
Even full meetings are difficult, not a lot of places can take even half of that number, and I guess it’s a problem a lot of branches will have.
“Substantial new powers”
Now you know they aren’t there and I know they aren’t there, but BBC Scotland and the Unionist Parties will continue to tell us that they are there.
“Can’t you see them” they ask, “Naw” you reply.
“They’re there, right in front of you.” and they will keep this up until you finally agree that there must be something there, because they keep telling me there is.
From snp. Thought those who are not members may want to ask a question…
Dear Nana,
18,000 tickets snapped up in less than a day for Nicola’s tour. An audience of over 292,000 for her Facebook Q&A last week. There’s no doubt that she is delivering on her pledge to be the most accessible First Minister ever.
But Nicola knows that many people couldn’t get to one of her tour events. So she’s asked us to go one step further and give members another opportunity to question her direct.
This Monday, 1st December at 7.30pm Nicola will host the first ever SNP live video call.
The event will be hosted by Phil MacHugh and can be watched on the SNP Youtube’s channel.
Members can submit questions in advance by e-mailing movement@snp.org or on the night underneath the Youtube livestream.
A limited number of questioners will also be asked to take part in the Live video call with Nicola on the night.
Get typing up your questions and in the meantime why not catch up with events last Saturday at the Hydro, the country’s largest ever political event.
Best,
Yesguy – good news in Aberdeenshire Troup, shame in Midlothian East. Was close though, and a like-for-like replacement of a former Labour councillor with two pro-indy councillors already representing the ward.
Maybe interesting too that as candidates were eliminated and their votes reassigned to the remaining candidates, both Labour and SNP benefited equally – there didn’t seem to be a unionist bloc vote thing going on.
The big news is surely the Lib Dem vote. According to link to midlothianadvertiser.co.uk:
Labour: 1,682
SNP: 1,613
Lib Dem: 68!!
Re The National, I had lunch with people who had never heard of it but are now curious. They have done well despite relying on social media rather than mainstream advertising.
OT. Is anybody going to the Faslane Demo on Sunday. Talking to my sister in Aberdeen and she didn’t know anything about it.
A few postings have touched on this …. we must all remember the Smith suggestions will never get through WM in their present form. No political party actually wants them!
It all depends on firstly whether Labour or Tory form the government after May 2015, and secondly if the SNP hold the balance of power. And, I suppose, if rebellious English MPs can be whipped into doing as their party leadership wants. Maybe even, whipped into following a line dictated by SNP cooperation! Then there is UKIP.
@YesIndyRef2:
I wish I got an email for my ‘local’ branch, which is 99EU (Europe) and has no Office bearers registered!
Despite Morag telling me it’s normal, I wonder if this branch is not run by some ghost directly expatriated from an old Scottish castle.
I saw that the issue #22 of Independence, the SNP magazine, had an article about the Brussels branch. Does anybody know how one can buy it or get it in PDF? Thanks.
muttley79
“Richard Walker and his staff deserve a huge thank you from independence supporters imo.”
Couldn’t agree more. 1 week ago we didn’t have a daily that represented us. Now we do. Give them a freaking chance – I’ll bet the last week has been crazy for those putting out the National, waiting to see if news quest would pull the plug and trying to live up to expectations.
How many critics have submitted an article, or a letter, or sent constructive criticism.
We are already in a significantly stronger position than we were.
O/T in light of the news that poll highlighting the disparity between pro eu Scotland and anti EU rUK is now the time to start writing to Angela Merkel, Hollande and the other eu heads of state asking them if they will now support Scotland becoming independent and remaining in the EU in the circumstances suggested by recent polling?
AuldA
Try indymag@saltiregraphics.com
yesindyref2
To keep enthusiasm and member activity going run Social Events which also have the benefit of raising funds:-
Discos, Dinner Dances, Burns Suppers, Quiz Nights, Children’s Parties, Dominos and Darts Nights, Golf Tournaments.
Find a pub whose management support the cause and adopt it as a meeting place.
O/T
The latest news from Ibrox,
“Rangers in Crisis Again: David Somers Admits Club Has Two Months to Tackle £8.3million Losses.”
link to tinyurl.com
I used to support this shower of scumbags. But they put their club before their country, aided by the Orange Order. I will NEVER forgive them for that move and I will NEVER set foot inside Ibrox ever again.
Times have definitely changed, I watched Rangers playing Hearts last weekend and I actually wanted Hearts to win that game. They did and it puts the Unionist lovin club in deep shit.
Does anyone else see parallels between the tale of The Emporer’s New Clothes and the powers suggested by Smith?
link to en.m.wikipedia.org
The MSM and Unionists all declare they are there in clear sight for everyone to see, and wonderous they are to behold.
Dah …. there is nothing actually there.
Carwyn Jones and leaders from Scotland and Northern Ireland vow joint devolution push
link to archive.today
@Sinky:
thanks. I’ll try.
@Tam Jardine:
They won’t answer you. I’m sure, because I’ve raised up the point with many friends and/or people I met, that there is a wide support in favor of Scottish independence amongst the French people who are aware of the Scottish indy movement (that means, the people over here that have time to spend looking around at the world around them because they are not slogging for the few euros that will allow them and their family to eat). But it won’t be acknowledged by the top politicians, because that would be taken as ‘ingérence’, that is interference with UK’s own business.
As I said before, maybe de Gaulle would have blared a « Vive l’Écosse libre » fifty years ago. Now, it’s too late. They won’t budge. However, if Scotland becomes independent, I’m surely France and Germany would warmly welcome this new country.
Another member for the SNP.
link to twitter.com
2nd report from Scottish Evening News: Immigration
link to youtube.com
Hope someone can straighten me out
If Scotgov takes “responsibility” for collecting the devolved taxes etc instead of just spending them , does that not mean there will need to be an increase in gov infrastructure / cost to support it? Or will the reduction in the Barnett allowance be less than the reduction in UKgov receipts to offset the cost? If not, does that not effectively mean a reduction in Scotgov spending power?
Thanks in advance
@Caledonia, I like that suggestion of devo mince, and will now use it!
BTW, on another saying, is anyone sick of hearing the term ‘busted flush’? Just heard Miliband using it, everyone remotely talking politics, seems to be using it!
On the subject of the Troup council by-election, Hand and Sbrimp’s comment above is slightly confused as a reault of the multi-member wards we now have. The SNP got the best of the first preference votes at the last full Council election. The Tory was not the first candidate elected then. Consequently, the by-elections in such seats are vulnerable to change of hands results. Same thing happened previously in Cambuslang following the death of an SNP councillor. The SNP vote may actually have gone up, but Labour won the by-election. Good result for the SNP all the same.
Well I have bought the National all week and I intend to go on buying it if it’s available. However it does need a few things badly, more humour and some things that could be filched from the Herald like a crossword. But lets be honest here. Businesses try to make money. The company has run with two papers that patently didn’t get the mood of Scotland. I don’t think the National has caught the mood of the country yet, unless it does it will never get talked about in the tones which will make it a true best seller and a must have. I’m supporting it but it does need to have a bit more irreverence like WGD and Wings and Greg Moodie to make it a really must read thing. But with a wee staff and probably no real funding it has to get off the ground to get advertisers and into the marketplace properly. It’s no secret that Wings is a success and that journalists in the print media have “borrowed” from it, perhaps it needs to “borrow” to get talked about more. The publishers have to convince the 45% who voted Yes that they are aligned with that position with the National. I think they are getting there but dry politics does not a newspaper make although it gets pass marks from me for the work so far.
Red Tory leader, Milliband up here today, contaminating the sacred YES ground of Glasgow.
Please de-contaminate the ground as soon as possible, we don’t want any innocent Scots catching the deadly “Red Tory virus”.
On the subject of Red Tories, has anyone saw my local MP, Douglas Alexander anywhere. I email him, I phone him and I get nothing. I get replies saying he is busy at Westminster.
The wee rodent thinks that if he stays out of the way, we will forget all about him and then he gets re-elected.
Oh How wrong he is, Alexander is in for the biggest shock of his life once this 2015 GE campaign gets up and running.
“There are all sorts of ways you can help an unemployed person take a job, but first someone has to be offering it.”
Or not cutting jobs. Guess which Scottish administration has seen public sector jobs in Scotland fall to their lowest ever total. One of the less-publicised effects of the council tax freeze.
YESGUY,
Who in their right minds would vote for Labour now. They are a toxic bunch of chancers who answer to WM only.
Trouble is most voters in Midlothian are still staunch Labour voters.
I have had numerous arguments with some of them, they are dinosaurs who have always voted Labour and don’t see any point in changing.
Gordon Brown was in Loanhead two days before the ref and the social club was packed out this is what we are up against.
Got this update from ‘iScot – a Free & Fearless News Service 4 Scotland’
Hello Fellow Founder Members of iScot !
Once again, thank you very much indeed for your generosity and your ongoing patience. Our funding levels didn’t reach where we wanted to be, primarily on account of competing fundraisers, but hey ho, no one said it was going to be easy !
Neither our plans nor enthusiasm have been diminished, we continue to plough on (albeit at a slower rate) with reprioritised milestones.
The inaugural edition of the digital version of iScot launches on 30th November at 10.00 pm, with printed version ready within the following weeks.
The magazine endeavours to promote the best of Scotland, to be 100% Pro Scottish and to appeal to all Scots. We aim to offer a bridge to the 55% to come over from the darkside and convince them that we Scots are not TWTPTS 🙂 As founder members your name will be included on the digital and printed version of the magazine.
We shall continue to seek sponsorship, advertising revenue, and content submissions in order to enable the publication to be self funding, sustainable and of the highest journalistic quality as we can muster.
Over the next few days we’ll be blitzing the Twittersphere asking for people to follow @iScotNews . The link access will be made available when the magazine is uploaded and live.
We don’t plan to charge for the magazine as we need as many people to access it as possible.
We are truly a grass roots initiative. Your support genuinely helped make this happen, and we sincerely hope you like the inaugural content. We can only get better !
If you haven’t already followed us on twitter…can you please do so ?
Yours aye
The iScot Team
Please everyone who is trashing the National. It’s not perfect (being 5 days old) but it can serve a purpose by wooing in the No voters. One of the mistakes we made in the run up to the Referendum is that we talked amongst ourselves and we need to bring the No voters over. I believe Sturgeon is taking this approach and the National is forging its way. We long termers can trash what we want here and within our own groups but remember, we are not the ones who need to be convinced.
Liz, that (Midlothian East) wasn’t an FPTP election, it was in effect AV (STV with only one seat up for grabs). It went to the wire at stage 5.
@Tam Jardine
We are already in a significantly stronger position than we were.
Could not have put it better myself Tam. For me the National’s launch is the most significant news in Scottish politics this week. Forget about Calman Strikes Back.
Oops, sorry, should read thread before commenting.
The ‘Vow’ itself was vacuous and as a result whatever The Myth came up with could be claimed to fulfil it in all honesty.
It is Mr Brown (the Scarlet Pimpernel) who should be in the dock right now. He was the main protagonist of the con by adding pretty specific expectations of what we would be offered.
Frankly, Scotland has been violated and abused by our imperial masters yet again.
Dr Jim 4.12pm
Cheers for the pick me up
caz-m
No mince in your hoose for tea the night. 😉
AuldA
I take your point but the political landscape is changing and when Angela et al begin to accept that the rUK is hell bent on leaving the EU and yet Scotland, with all of her resources to contribute wants to stay, surely that sense of ‘ingerence’ will give way to self interest and a bit of a fuck-you to Cameron.
I wrung my hands during the indyref when support failed to materialise from within Europe. I hope that next time this will be different and believe it is something worth working on in the interval between referendums.
To be fair to the National, what were WoS, Bella, etc like a week after they started, compared to where they are now?
Give them a chance.
Must admit I feel The Nation is worth supporting – at least for six months to see how it develops. As for reaching the 55%: some of them must be curious about the new paper and if they get as far as reader’s questions one simple way to get them to move on to other forms of media is for contributors to keep referring to Wings, Bella, National Collective, and specific Indy writers whenever they are relevant. This could wean some of them off Unionist media.
What I have found great far, although a bit wonky, is that it is possible to read politically oriented articles without having to continually check whether the writer is being disingenuous, misleading, or even blatantly lying. And none of the attempts at brainwashing/misleading readers common in papers like The Scotsman when they present headlines that are misleading at first glance.
Roll on the day The Nation is a fully rounded newspaper with the usual light-hearted elements ie crosswords, cartoons, etc. to complement news and analyses. That will be when it really could take off and become a national newspaper.
muttley 79 Are you serious about never having seen me writing on Wings before?
Actually reducing personal income tax does create jobs – and better than any faffing about with company taxation or regulation.
The reason is that companies create jobs in response to demand – business leaders are actually business followers.
And in a situation like the current one, the only realistic way to create demand is to put more cash into the pockets of people (not banks). The best ways are of course public work programmes (because of the added benefit of the new infrastructure) or increased benefits (because poorer people will spend it and now save). But reduced income tax works as well, as wood be throwing cash from helicopters. (Giving money to banks, or reducing interest rates may work in a normal recession, but this time we’re well past the point.)
Though admittedly the whole argument is somewhat academic as the government hasn’t go the power to finance any job growth by any means…
“Responsibility without power, the fate of the secretary through the ages.”
Really? Did someone tell Stalin?
gus1940
Thanks for that, I passed it on, specially the pub idea.
The National
I don’t see any harm in criticising it at this stage, it’s going to keep going so now is the time for “feedback” both direct and indirect.
It’ll take a time for it to establish a characteristic “style”, and that seems fair enough to me. Get one too soon and it makes it more difficult to change it.
I’m of the opinion “the Vow” not being delivered can only be a good thing. If it had delivered far greater powers then those who voted No for Devo Max would have been satisfied and not consider moving to Yes. As it is at least a fair percentage (enough to get us over 50%?) must be angry and moving from the dark side. It gives the Yes parties a huge club to hit the opposition with in the 2015 GE campaign surely which can only be a good thing?
Here’s what I e-maiedl to some like-minded pals on Tuesday.
“Managed to get a copy at the Bus Station this morning …
It’s an easy read, not heavy articles but enough to get the message across. If its target readership is DR and Sun readers then it looks as if it is pitched just right although they might want more coverage of Rangers and Celtic, I couldn’t care less. I see a few folk on Wings calling for a bit more bite and attack of the MSM but maybe if it gets gradually more aggressive once they have the readership it will have the desired effect.
It’s a good start.”
I’m still thinking that way and now that they are going to keep it going I suspect/hope they will get more aggressive.
@ Hello Roberto Esquierdo wheres You been long long long time since I last seen a post of yours,welcome back.
Graeme Doig 6.49pm
Power to the people brother, direct action! lol
Wouldn’t it be better to send criticisms, ideas and opinions about The National to the The National (who have asked for them)rather than posting them here?
@Roberto Esquierdo
I genuinely have not seen your name on here before today. I saw another post saying you were a regular, but I forgot to reply to it. Therefore, apologies for my post.
@yesindyref2
There is a difference between constructively criticising the National, and putting the boot into it, and dismissing it without giving it a real chance. It is not going to be like Wings and Bella Caledonia. It is not going to be as aggressive and satirical as Wings, as it is intended to be a serious newspaper. Both types of media are very important to the independence movement.
The National’s in it to make profit and only profit for the same crew that said literally everything and anything possible to stop Scottish democracy happening. Every little helps maybe but it’s just so sad to think of everything they might now be now reporting, if Scotland was the country we think it could be. It’s really hard to pay the wages of all the Glasgow Herald teamGB con artists. So much of Project Fear belched at us from the UKOK charmers but it’s even worse when they quite wilfully damage their own trade in Scotland relecntlesly attacking Scotland as an indpendent nation state.
We save the Herald’s profits? It is just too much. I’m out.
“Westminster cuts the purse strings to Scotland” says the FT.
“The government in Holyrood spends around £35bn annually, but only a small fraction is raised north of the border, largely through property levies. Most funding is provided by a block grant from the Treasury in London.”
No wonder ordinary people in England think they subsidise Scotland when the Financial Times comes out with this sort of rubbish.
“This is a radical step towards giving Scotland a level of fiscal autonomy normally seen in a fully independent state.”
Hilarious!
link to archive.today
I’d like to applaud the daring of creating The National, but then I wonder if it wasn’t just a safe, low-cost, bet. Last edition I saw was mostly written by Nat bloggers. Using radical sources instead of conservative sources is not journalism -it’s just the usual failure of the press flipped on its head. Hurrahing for one side is, journalistically, no better than hurrahing for the other.
We need journalism that investigates and documents the facts, insofar as they can be discovered. That takes intellect, commitment and a decent budget. The National is scoring 0 out of 3 on that card.
I’ll keep buying it for a while, but they need to grow. I hope they do.
There were suggestions earlier on in this post about a great deal of text on The National and that graphics may be easier to get a message across. I’ve emailed them suggesting that they might like to look at the graphic that the Rev used in link to wingsoverscotland.com but add a column showing just what Smith has proposed. It may show some of the 55 who believed the ‘Vow’ what they are not getting!
O/T Anyone going to the Rally at Holyrood tomorrow? It starts at noon. Tommy Sheridan will speak apparently and there’s a collection for food banks.
Maybe a good placard would be “Smith Serves Up Devo Mince!”
🙂
And whilst we’re in the FT,here’s another “promise” DC made – on 10th November:
“David Cameron will on Monday commit to invest £15bn in Britain’s road network in the next parliament as part of the government’s wider £375bn national infrastructure plan…Mr Cameron will tell business leaders at the CBI’s annual conference that hundreds of extra lane miles on England’s motorways and trunk roads will be created in what the prime minister will dub a “roads revolution”.
I wonder if that will have Barnett consequentials or be funded through UK budget?
link to archive.today
I’ll stick with The National for the foreseeable future.
Its front-page headlines, if nothing else, put forward a pro-Scottish, pro-independence agenda which, hopefully, undecideds, or the uninitiated, may pick up on as they go about shopping.
So from the EU Referendum polls, it looks like England are not happy being bossed and told what they can and cannot do by Europe, but are quite happy to boss and tell Scotland what we can and cannot do.
What will it take for us to stand up to these people.
Open for comments.
link to johnogroat-journal.co.uk
Heed, it’s Newsquest, they have 200 newspapers including local ones, and a load of magazines:
link to newsquest.co.uk
They do the exchange and mart, S1 and Scottish Farmer in Scotland. And the Herald is far from being the worst of the Scottish sold papers.
O/T Fracking toxic:
“In a flagship report produced by Professor Sir Mark Walport, the government’s chief advisor on science policy, it is warned that fracking could have serious negative impacts on health and the environment that could last for decades.”
link to rt.com
@An Teallach says:
O/T Anyone going to the Rally at Holyrood tomorrow? It starts at noon.
I’ll be heading there for Noon … with my Yes flag …
@Phil Robertson
I heard that argument on a polling station from a Labour No canvasser.
1 The Scottish Government increased the amount of its contribution to local councils, but must be efficient. Theres only so much pocket money to go round.
2 Any increase in Council Tax is taken from the post tax income of the payers. That reduces the amount they have to spend themselves. Is the state better at spending your money or are you – given that taxes pay for foreign wars, nuclear weapons and Jim Murphy’s expenses?
In a Californian or Swiss referendum style of government would you think a majority of people would vote to have their Council Tax increased?
@ Nana
That would be “John Archibald Sinclair, 3rd Viscount Thurso, Bt, PC, MP” quoted in the John O groats Journal.
“The vow is fulfilled and home rule, which I have campaigned for all my life, substantially delivered. It is a great day for Scotland,” said the Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross MP.”
We believe you, John Archibald Sinclair, 3rd Viscount Thurso. I couldn’t have put it better myself.
We’re certainly getting our moneys-worth in jokes with this Smith Report!
@Tam Jardine:
European officials will surely have their say, but only if that in-out referendum is really organized, and even then, maybe only in the dying days. If the UK votes to quit, then the official European stance will probably change.
By the way, ’stance’ has a special Scottish meaning, hasn’t it?
By the by the way, Tam, you like gardening?
@Capella
I thought that joker would come out with a cracker and sure enough.
Home rule aye right Thurso, we’ll let you know soon enough what we think of you.
The National: I just upgraded for a three-month digital subscription.
Strangely, you don’t get any significant rebate if you opt for a six-month subscription rather than twice a three-month (there must be a single quid between the two prices).
Hey, I know nothing! I wasn’t saying it was normal, just making excuses for branch volunteers who might not have been as on top of things as they should be. Been there, seen that, done that, got the t-shirt.
I’ve never actually heard of branch 99EU. If it’s not a re-named Brussels branch I don’t know what it is. I thought Brussels was 74, mainly on the grounds that there were 72 constituency branches and 73LOND when I was membership secretarying in the latter.
In your place I’d probably try to phone SNP Headquarters in Edinburgh and see if I could get some sense out of someone. Trudi Logan might be a good bet.
Some people are feeling whats called the YO-YO effect at the moment,it’s when, because of emotional draining a person gives up hope, for those who dont know about this, it’s a military tactic used all the time, give..take..raise hope..dash it..your opponent lacks the will to survive..you win..It’s normal to feel like this..BUT..it’s also easy to defeat..LAUGHTER..it works ,try it, everything is a joke and before you’ve even noticed, you dont wanna die. Feeling bad? Mock everything!….. We’re Scottish, it comes naturally…
The way I am selling the Smith Commission is as follows;
I represent Westminster. You represent Holyrood who I look after and subsidise. I as Westminster want to give you a pound coin. You as Holyrood ask me what I want for it?
O.K. “What do you want for it?”
Two 50 pence pieces will do nicely thank you, and are you not glad I am here to look after you?
Eh,people, wakey wakey!
John Thurso is about the first Labour MP to be unseated by the SNP, so he’ll be getting his Home Rule then.
By being openly supportive of Indy, The National can have headlines like “The Smith Commision: the verdict is in … ‘It’s not enough'”.
Apart from giving that point of view anyway, it also forces some other papers to be more genuine in their assessment, as in the Herald: “Smith proposals represent a good beginning”.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I knew Midlothian wasn’t FPTP but at the first stage , the votes were Lab 1294, SNP 1260.
So Lab would have won if FPTP.
I was more concerned at there being a 34% turnout.
I hope people take it more seriously for the GE.
It was still very close
@yesindyref2
John Thurso is a LibDem.
Just as well you do not report for the National ! + smiley face thing.
p.s. how do you get these smile face things from an iPad ?
@Morag:
First of all, I’d like to apologize for having dragged you somehow into this. I never actually meant you knew something, just that you seem to be more aware than most people out here of the intimate cogs of the SNP machinery, because you’re one of the oldest in its ranks.
Yeah, I guess your piece of advice is the best way to unravel that quandary. Thanks for your help Morag! If you wish, I’ll keep you posted.
John Thurso,
Home rule – my arse.
These LibDem have been campaigning for home Rule for 100 years and they think they have now reached it. What lack of ambition and vision.
Pathetic – time to vote them all out.
The prediction is that Danny Tory Boy Alexander is already dead meat.
Unfortunately, Kennedy, Thurso and Carmichael may be the last to go in the Highlands.
I hope the Yessers up North are up for the fight.
Dr JM
Oops!
Don’t know about an iPad but it should be all the same. You type “: – )” without the spaces (or quotes!). 🙂
sort of blogged about this topic here, trying to pull a few strands together
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
AuldA
Gardening? Ah, you mean jardining… yeah, love it.
I am quite fascinated by my French (and further back Scandinavian) origins. Thing is, in the clan system there would be the clan chief and family, relatives etc but the ordinary folk seeking protection or solidarity with the clan would simply take the surname, having none before. So who knows where that leaves my descendents.
I did read that the Jardine/Du Jardin/De Jardine descendents left Norway with one Ganger Rolf back in the day, someone mentioned on this site from time to time. Thought I recognised Morag’s handle
Nana
I reckon you’ll be finding more articles like the John Thurso one in most local newspapers in next few days. Orders will have gone out to MP’s MSP’s to get word out in constituencies that Smith was good for Scotland.
Lord Smith and the Giant Fudge
@ Calcacus Mc, I,ll be there 10,40am train from Airdrie,Tam Jardine are you going.
Thought I recognised Morag’s handle
No, not me. Rolf the Ganger is someone else. Great poster thought. No idea at all who he is.
I post some places as plain “Rolfe” which was the name of a cat I had once, named from the surname of his original owners as I was never told his original name. (How do most vets get their pets? Well, you see dear mother/husband/child, I just couldn’t bear to put him to sleep.)
The Guardian wouldn’t accept that name, apparently they require at least six characters. So I went on there as Rolfethecat.
ronnie anderson
Working so won’t make it unfortunately. Great seeing you and the rest of the Wingers at CH and Yesbar last weekend mate. Enjoy the rally – you manning a Wings stall?
I’ve bought the National so far, but I’m concerned its real function is to strangle at birth our own burgeoning independent media initiatives.
@yesindyref2
🙂
Lots of people are more influenced by non politicians, that’s why we need to get the message over that civic Scotland is totally underwhelmed by the Myth Commission.
link to snp.org
Get writing to unionist newspapers and calling / texting BBC phone ins
@ morag
If I were a vet I’d be the same, every pet I’ve had has been a stray or rescued-dogs, cats, chickens & some ducks. Can’t say no I guess.
@Tam:
Jardine / Dujardin seems to be perfect French, although, you’re right, ’jardin’ has evolved from a Germanic stem (the word ‘garden’ comes from French ‘jardin’, whereas the direct Germanic word is ‘yard’); the latin word is ‘hortus’ (modern Italian ‘orto’) wherefrom ‘horticulture’. ‘hortus’ and ‘yard/yart’ are obviously from the same IE root.
By the way, ‘hortus’ + o.e. ‘geard’ (yard) > orchard.
Where did you pick up the idea that the name was ultimately of Scandinavian ascent?
Thanks to Kevin Kane ( SMNT ) I have 2 replacment Yes Flags for this weekend.
Now, itI feels that it’s very late in the thread — but why let The Girniad get off with a page of metropolitan media bile?
This: link to theguardian.com
combined with this
link to theguardian.com
So none of the 75% voted for Indie, Martin?
And, just for lachs, look at the “analysis” rather than the cartoon:
“The result of Scottish Labour’s leadership election next month will make a big difference – the SNP will breathe a sigh of relief if Jim Murphy loses. ”
I’m far from the orbit of SNP Central Office — maybe even a “concern troll” in cult-speak, but…
@Tam Jardine In Dundee with Brian & Pete not in Edinburgh
Andrew, I think the National is aimed at a different audience from the modern media people.
I hope they get the Record and Sun buyers, but they will need to sharpen up the Sports and horse racing coverage.
I don’t know how Danny boy will fare. I live in his constituency and we are being flooded with lib dem isn’t Danny wonderful literature on a very regular basis, I am being told that all the unionist parties in the area are trying to get their respective voters give their votes to Danny, he of all the unionists being the most likely candidate to keep out the SNP. Highlands area I believe had a 60% No to 40%. yes. The area is full of old retired codgers from other parts of UK. Dead meat I would like to think so, I was horrified by the ref result, there are people here that I thought couldn’t possibly vote No, now I wouldn’t piss on them if they were on fire. Its going to much harder than people imagine, make sure you are not in a bubble.
Lord Thurso is an agreeable kinda man , but this is not about Mr Nice Guy anymore.
If the current uptake on SNP membership continues with the likes of Kevin Pringle switching from Labour then no one , absolutely no one has a safe seat . Previous vote trends etc are gone into the political dustbin .
Smith Com ;
Maybe I need to read above properly . Income Tax , it strike me as the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away . The tax sounds to me as a load o rubbish as posted by many yesterday .If we reduce our tax take the BF rises to compensate ? or does the BF only go down ?
Regardless of the nitties , it aint “substantial powers ” or DMax or Federalism
APD etc , it would be a struggle to lower as something else will suffer ?
So if I were sitting @ Holyrood ,I would be thinking WTF can we do with this to change anything significantly .
The National ;
I purchased 3 copies everyday this week and posted round neighbours . Apologies to anyone who was desperate for a copy .
I have not bought a paper since the 80’s so it was an odd transaction .
Sadly I never bothered to read it yet , reading a newspaper is now a strange concept.
My only thoughts are that we do need it even if it may be a bit wet compared to sites we are used to . I hope we can support and give it time to develop .
Anyone got a link to the video of Richard Walker talking about the Nationals Conception ?
Not the BBC video , the one I saw and forgot to bookmark where he talks about his personal movement to YES etc
I do not wish them to loose money , in fact maybe its an even greater ” get it up ya” moment if they do make a wee profit and grow into a regular newspaper.
Fairly enjoyed A S on A.Neil last night .
Exciting times me finks.
Morag
I see… my brain is just making connections that are not there. Ganger Rolf, or Rolf the Ganger, a man so large that no horse could carry him… I wonder what that old viking would have made of the vow, the Smith Comission report and all the nonesense of the last few days.
Never have I heard anything as stupid in all my life as this mess of potage we are being served up.
@ PictAtRandom
The comments under the Steve Bell cartoon are interesting!
“I’m a fan of Steve but this is turning into an embarrasing obsession.”
The Martin Kettle piece is just plain ignorance, or else they have all got the memo to spin the Smith Report as the best day in Scotland since Bannockburn.
As has been pointed out many times these are PROPOSALS not actually delivery of anything. I would love now for the House of Lords to tear it to ribbons now and wait to see how the press are able to spin that because if they can’t then you’d better order up plenty of Humble pie and Egg for faces for quite a while to come…
@Tackety –
Fairly enjoyed A S on A.Neil last night
Great stuff from Alex, for anyone who missed it….
link to bbc.co.uk
Will be at the Edinburgh rally tomorrow
@wullie
I am from up north but now live down south and I know it may be difficult to get rid of the Lib-Dems up there.
A lot of these seats are three way seats with Labour, SNP and Lib-dem in the running. So difficult to predict the result and see how things play out – it really depends if there is a Lib dem collapse as predicted.
Tactical voting works both ways – who do you vote for in a three or four way marginal?
The InverYess effect will play out but the rural areas may still vote for that lib-dem numpty!
But could well be tactical voting Unioinst v SNP.
Did I not say previously we are run by the
Unionist (labour) and Conservative (tory+LibDem) Party. 🙂
AuldA
My understanding is that the north men of Normandy came down from Norway back in the day and the Jardines were amongst them. I think the whole garden origin is a red herring (Francification?) I had heard the name is derived from the old norse for javelin-thrower and right enough the old norse for spear is geirr.
My relative took a dna test to check origin, and sure enough, the conclusion was Scandinavia.
Sketchy stuff, but we’re talking 9th/10th century.
@Andrew Haddow
I’ve bought the National so far, but I’m concerned its real function is to strangle at birth our own burgeoning independent media initiatives.
Good lord, this is start to getting alarming. What next? Alex Salmond was never committed to independence, and in fact was always an arch unionist/MI5 special agent all the time…
Tackety Beets, Kevin Pringle has been an SNP spin doctor for decades. He merely tweeted about a defector from Labour, without naming the man.
Well muttley79, you may be happy that our only mass market indy-supporting media are owned by foreign unionists, but I’m not.
Muttley, I feel your pain. I really do.
Breaking into the newspaper industry with a new title, coming from nowhere without the backing of an existing media group and indeed with no serious backing at all beyond a bunch of people waving saltires and clicking on an Indiegogo link, is almost impossible.
The shortcomings and teething troubles of The National, with all its advantages, show how very very difficult this is to pull off. The chances of an independent crowdfunded initiative making a breakthrough as a daily newspaper and selling 50,000 copies a day are about the same as my chances of swimming the Atlantic.
This is a capitalist economy. Goods and services are provided in order that people may make a profit or at least a salary. The fact that Newsquest has decided to run with this one is something to celebrate, not criticise. Gloat about getting a pro-indy daily on the back of the profits from its pro-union titles if you like!
The backers are in it for money. But the people producing the newspaper are independence supporters, and at least the backers are giving them the chance. Don’t cut your nose off to spite your face, people.
muttley79
Fortunately David Cameron is one of us – embedded deep in the Westminster establishment, hollowing out the union from the inside. Very few have ever heard his soft Highland brogue but I understand there is an inner sanctum in Downing Street where he cracks open a can of Tennents, reads Wings, and listens to the Proclaimers, greetin for his homeland.
Mark my words, DC’s project Brexit is on schedule and running according to plan.
Hi Willie @ 9.50pm
I was in Inverness earlier this week and saw some o the Junk mail from Beaker .
Cringy to say the least.
Drew Hendry , Cllr Ken Gowans and narin Cllr Liz McDonald are putting themselves into the ring to represent SNP GE May 2015
I have met Drew several times and is a very impressive individual . Only spoken to Ken a couple of times so hard to judge . Cant place Liz , sorry .
For me Drew could do a great job against Beaker and would become familiar to you all within a short time .
WM gain will be Highland Cooncils loss with any of the 3 candidates.
Labour apologist and Living wage denier Brian Wilson defending the Smith Commission’s Tory trap in the Hootsman
link to archive.today
“Over on the pro-independence side, meanwhile, the coverage is wonkish and dull, with The National devoting plenty of pages to the subject but completely failing to deliver any punch.”
Told you so.
What would you expect from the Herald’s sister paper?
When will we realise that they are only after our money?
Those who buy and (financially) support the paper are bigger mugs than the ones who voted No because of ‘The Vow’.
What we need is a pro-independence paper from a genuinely pro-independence group (eg Wings over Scotland).
I type the way i type, others can do the same and i certainly would’nt deride them for it,so the pseudo intellec..intelic..clever types, have a little patience with us oldies who usually write with a pen, remember those?
Don’t cut your nose off to spite your face, people.
Which people on here where doing to Newsnet etc.
Whether you were one of those or not I can’t remember so apologies if you weren’t but the point is that the slagging something which has positive potential does those who do it no favours at all.
I’ll get back to Bardarbunga as at least it is creating something.
@wullie & Dr JM Mackintosh –
Was it oor ain Alan Mackintosh who posted a link to a public meeting in Alexander’s constituency, perhaps at the start of this year?
It was valuable documentary, and I wish I’d saved it to somewhere safe. He has to go next May. No two ways about it. Danny Alexander is a disgrace to this country and everyone who ever voted for him – he must go.
@Tam
Re you comments on Europe:
We weren’t at all savvy about international stuff last time around, and we need to think about it more carefully.
The fact is that no European government is going to take a public position other than a negative one on Indy. There are a number of reasons – but it’s not something we can win around. (This is not to say that government’s won’t be secretly sympathetic)
Instead, we need to look to the next ranks down – the Stiftungen (think tanks) in Germany and elsewhere. Get the academics and economists onside. They will be happy to speak up, not being bound by political necessities.
Rock says.
Get real it costs a fortune to set up a new newspaper from scratch and it would could not hope to get the distribution power of Newsquest and therefore would not get on supermarket or local newsagents shelfs.
Funny how a lot of the names speaking out against the National are names I don’t recognise…just saying!
Croompenstein
3 against 1 and alex never lost a beat.
i am fed up with the implication of the scottish subsidy junkie myth and attempted browbeating, that is running through the unionist parties and unionist MSM atm.
@Andrew Haddow
Well muttley79, you may be happy that our only mass market indy-supporting media are owned by foreign unionists, but I’m not.
The owners of the National/Sunday Herald and Herald are not unionists, they are American capitalists. They see a new market in Scotland after the 45 per cent vote for independence. They are merely exploiting a new market. Do you want to go back to the situation we had during the referendum, where we had no support from any daily newspaper in Scotland? We can either push on, or wallow in defeat.
Considering the LibDems are claiming that Home Rule has bee delivered, it would be interesting to see how far Smith falls short of their own submission, which was based on Home Rule and Federalism.
For instance, I don’t think we’re getting inheritance tax, capital gains tax, or the money collected from corporation tax. But that was in their submission. It appears they submitted, rolled over, played deid.
Andrew Haddow: I’ve bought the National so far, but I’m concerned its real function is to strangle at birth our own burgeoning independent media initiatives.
I know what you mean. I read it too, and am hoping it will be far more radical in analysis and fearless than to date – but it did cross my mind it might be a unionist spoiler. Certainly if it fails it will be a spoiler for other entrepreneurs will assume the National proved a Scottish newspaper won’t succeed.
Is it any surprise Scots are paranoid?
@Sinky
I think we are reaching the point where some folk cannot be reasoned with over giving the National a chance and supporting and nurturing it. It is a completely self destructive mind-set for the independence cause. I have no idea why some people on here are dismissing the National already.
Stinky is absolutely right about the National.
In less than a week we have an independence supporting newspaper in wide circulation – Tesco Sainsbury etc and almost all the petrol stations and small shops.
There is no way that a paper starting from scratch without the contacts of a major group could get anywhere near that coverage in years.
It is said by some that I am a mug for supporting the National. Well so be it. They are on our side and if they make a profit II hope it is a big one. We need them to keep going till independence. Then we will have all the papers we want.
Sinky
So sorry about the name. Damned predictive text.
@ muttley 79 Not the metaphor that Morag would use ,but there,s many ways to skin a cat,be thankfull for small mercies in the National paper & they would,nt have invested without US.
kininvie
You speak a lot of sense as always. If the blue tories form any part of government in May and the polls are right then everything will change with a vote to leave the EU. I can forsee a period of absolute chaos should that happen and we need to be ready for this golden opportunity.
Of course the rUK casting adrift from Europe will be even less inclined to let go of resource rich Scotland. We need friends in the EU for this eventuality as there is nothing Westminster will not do to keep us.
Aye Ian , Beaker has done us no favours .
Look at the mess he made of the Rural Petrol fiasco .
If I recall properly he included his local petrol station in Carrbridge but not Nethy or Grantown , Aviemore .
For the outer Isles , when he was faffing about saying ” Europe this and europe that ” I had suggested to him to simply get Wm to agree to pay the ferry fare for the Tanker lorry then there was little excuse for the fuel to be much more expensive on the islands .
Anyone in business knows the KISS factor .
@ Rock , I appreciate your point and agree about the “punch” ,especially as they set up as Pro Indy .
Not sure if its appropriate to be classed as a mug .
I did buy the S H , but only once as I did view it as a bit wet , wishy washy , soft . As I said before maybe we are spoilt these days as on here its so much more hard hitting , just the way we like it .
I can stretch to 50p a day for now to see how it goes . I dinnae do the puggie .
I promise you I’ll put the 50p / day to charity ie £182.50 if its not improved by Jan 2015
link to dailymail.co.uk
Tackety Beets, I’m not following the sums. At £2.50 a week, the cost of the National isn’t much more than a tenner a month. January 2014 isn’t much more than a month away.
Fireproofjim
Absolutely – and it needs to be said that although this newspaper is big news across the national movement right now, it is but one of many important websites, blogs, forums, and hopefully soon tv stations.
It is another patch in the rich tapestry, just as we are all stitches.
If we wait for someone to fund, create and launch a Scottish owned indy title we may be waiting a long time.
January 2015, obviously. #readwhatImeannotwhatItype
Morag @ 10.32
Your good . Well spotted , thank you . I’m sure you knew what I meant tho’
Meant to read ” Kevin Pringle’s tweet ”
I did not notice myself , however thats the only slight down side here , not being able to edit after its posted .
The unionist publishers of The National have figured out that their ‘pro-independence’ stand will not adversely affect the unionists to make a difference in their chances in the 2015 election.
They have also figured out there isn’t much chance of another independence referendum soon.
So why not make money from independence supporters, while remaining ‘respected’ and ‘quasi-neutral’ at the same time? Has an article from newsnetscotland columnist Torrance appeared yet?
Everytime the establishment throws a con trick at us, we fall for it.
I doubt that Scotland will ever become independent, not until it has become a basket case anyway. We are indeed ‘too stupid’.
Muttley:
The owners of the National/Sunday Herald and Herald are not unionists, they are American capitalists.
The sister papers were orginally part of the Scottish Media Group, more right-wing than left. In time, under more liberal editors they moved centre-left. Later, when losing money, each got sold to Newsquest, part of the Gannett corporation.
Anybody who has travelled in America or lived there any time knows Gannett better as the quick-read title ‘USA.’ The paper is distributed on many US airlines.
Gannett is a company that buys regional newspapers. It’s owners bought the titles by mistake – they thought it a local rag, (‘are you local?’) and indeed, both Herald and Sunday Herald later classified themselves ‘regional.’
I think the term inappropriate for a ‘national’ newspaper.
They see a new market in Scotland after the 45 per cent vote for independence. (Muttley)
Most likely – I look askance at anything that begins with an opportunistic motive and not, in our needful case, from a cultural-political one. The argument that it takes a ton of money to get a newspaper up and running, one that’s anti-establishment, will be lost on the owners and editors of Private Eye. Then again, it’s a weekly magazine.
If the content is right people will buy it. If the writers are clever, insightful, if they publish and don’t care if damned, the journal will attract loyalty. Independence supporters and others of a like-mind will feel they have a newspaper that reflects radical socialist Scotland.
For topical examination I read Wings Over Scotland. For extensive research on Scottish political and historical issues I buy books. I keep those for reference.
I hope we gain a newspaper in the radical mould.
The full Gannett title is ‘USA Today.’
I have noted some criticism about the National.
Think about it for ~ 2 seconds…
What do you want – 100% MSM domination?
Or just 97% MSM domination?
Wise up FFS and support our only daily indy newspaper.
I personally think it is a good read and I am delighted it is growing and continuing .
Morag @ 11.38 LOL
Silly me 50p /day x 365 = £182.50 I’m being generous to charity .
Ok should be £2.50 x 52 = £130
Re Jan . I’m also aware they got The National off the ground in 3 weeks or so , by Jan they will be improved . Onwards and upwards , +ve as always .
Anything else ? Smiley face ( dunno how to post it )
Andrew Haddow
Ever heard the expression “don`t shoot the messenger”?
Rock
You should respect the choices others on here make and their ability to make a rational choice. Fuck being told I’m stupid on a Friday night for buying a pro-indy newspaper? I suppose everyone who bought the SH is stupid as well? Goodnight – I’m done with this pish
Craig P.
Thanks for that bud. I really thought SNP would win though as they were the bookies fav. Still we did get close and the win in Aberdeen shows the momentum is still with us. Spoke to a few who are too wrapped up in xmas to worry about councils. Think it will be the same all over.
Preparing for the spring , fresh and full of knowledge from Wings and a small army of troops to push the voters out.
I cannny wait. 🙂
@Rock
You’re a twat fuck off.
If the National #6 editorial on Monday called for the 45% to rise up, drag all known No-voters to the local square and chop their fucking heads off, some would dismiss it as cynical posturing.
Many others would still refuse to buy it on the more reasonable basis that it doesn’t have a crossword/Sudoku/Horoscope.
Nice to see folks discussing the National. Let me make this point. This paper whether you approve of it or nor
t is giving us one thing we need—publicity. It is the lifeblood of public opinion as we have found to our cost during the referendum campaign. Even hard nosed unionists of my acquaintance know of its existence and are annoyed and dismissive of it— this signifies fear. Ask yourself how much it would cost the pro independence parties to take out even a one page spread in any paper for one day, even if they would accept your ad. We have something which IS a talking point ,and even if they are using independence supporters to make money, we are using them JUST AS MUCH to our better advantage.
Tam Jardine,
“You should respect the choices others on here make and their ability to make a rational choice.”
Good. Respect the ‘rational’ choice made by the 55% and forget about independence for a generation.
The National is working because we have crowd funded it for the last week. I don’t give a toss if the owner is an American capitalist company. At the moment they are giving me what I want.
A voice.
I didn’t have that a week ago, I have a friend who is a staunch unionist (he’ll die a unionist) and even he told me tonight he would be buying it next week to see what it was saying.
We who are involved need to make sure this paper stays solvent. I’ve bought an on line subscription and I intend buying two copies a day to ensure it stays in circulation until at least May 2015.
The National is a great asset to those wishing. And hoping for independence.
It is a thorn in the flesh for Unionists so quess who is criticising it.
OK it needs tv listings and a crossword and soduku etc et but these will come.
Without knowing newspapers it would be impossible to launch a new title.
A concern troll is someone writing here who kids on he supports Indy but puts the boot in to any scheme supporting Indy.Like the pickpocket who puts a friendly arm over your shoulder a he robs you.!
I understand the concerns re the National but I don’t see any option but to support it.
I think we need to use any vehicle at our disposal to change the political culture of our land. We have been influenced by this union for too long. We need to support and push anything which promotes a Scottish view of our country.
I don’t really care who is making the money out of this as long as our cause and country are promoted.
My humble opinion.
Rock: Respect the ‘rational’ choice made by the 55%
Or put another way: stay respectful, docile and conform, or be an outcast. Those 55% will never alter their mind. We must alter ours.
Oh dear, those bloody jocks are setting up their own online/paper/broadcast media outlets, but they’re a bit strapped for cash. What should we do?…. I know, lets give them a “pro-indy” daily newspaper run by those dupes at the Sunday Herald. Everyone will ignore the indigenous stuff and put their faith in our offering. After a while we’ll pull it and we’ll all go back to normal. JOB DONE.
(Just because I’m paranoid, etc.)
If the National is being funded by people living in ‘a part of England’ that the shareholders of a global corporation aren’t interested in, why should any of us bemoan that financial support?
They don’t care who we are – they get our dosh. We don’t care who they are – they satisfy demand for a pro-Independence daily.
‘Big fat fleas have toty fleas, upon their backs to bite ’em, an’ dem wee fleas have smaller fleas, and so…ad infinitum.’
Any ‘rational’ explanation why Pravda GB has been giving prominence to the new ‘independence supporting’ paper?
“Pro-independence paper to continue”
Let’s be fair to the National and not forget it was a five day experiment produced with minimal staff to ascertain if it was a goer and any hope of breaking the DR etc. Now that they have decided to go for it next week I suspect that they’ll beef-up their whole journalistic team over the coming weeks so let’s not be too critical, too quickly every new team needs a few weeks to settle in.
Auld Rock
Where did all these fecking Trolls come from,they must be bricking it something terrible,cause we have a foot in the door of the Mainstream Media.I challenged the Manager of Lidl in Airdrie today as to why they dont have the National & Morrisons, make a point of going into every shop & supermarket & asking for the National.
For the record.
In the referendum 55% voted No. But this statement is very misleading because 55% did not want a straight No.
A very significant proportion of the 55% only voted No because they wanted Devo Max. But because DevoMax was not on the ballot paper, they put a cross next to No because that is what they were told to do by Gordon Brown.
Gordon Brown said vote NO for Devo Max.
Devo Max represents about 90% of Independence.
So it is certain that a clear majority voted for at least 90% of Independence. (45% Yes plus the devoMax vote)
What Lord Smith has recommended is far far short of Devo Max which is 90% of Independence.
By introducing Devo Max, Gordon Brown and the Better Together campaign muddied the waters so as to prevent Independence. Devomax was a piece of planned trickery and it worked because it diverted many possible Yes voters to vote No.
A promise made to the Scottish electorate has been broken by Cameron Clegg and Milliband.
It’s as if they promised a tenner but only hand over £1.
Now they are telling the nation that they have kept their promise and delivered what Mr Brown said they would – which is patently untrue.
The 55% is misused by many on the Unionist side. Only tonight I heard Andrew Neil and Michael Portillo quote it.
The Unionists have a very convenient 55% number to quote but the truth is something they simply cannot afford to face because it demolishes their argument and their claimed ‘victory’.
In this matter the Electoral Commission members demonstrated themselves to be without a shred of integrity.
Unionists call for the result to be respected.
I would call for the truth about the result to be respected.
And the truth trumps the result every time.
This account will stand for all time for it is true.
The result will be forever tarnished.
@Rock (12.58) –
What does ‘Pravda GB’ mean?
@Jim McIntosh
“I’ve bought an on line subscription and I intend buying two copies a day to ensure it stays in circulation until at least May 2015.”
I’m doing exactly the same, Jim.
The National may not be the real deal yet.
But the Editor, Richard Walker is.
@Jim McIntosh
Touch not the cat bot a glove…
@Rock
You’re a twat fuck off.
This is evidence.
Hard evidence that Jim Murphy cannot be allowed to represent any ‘real’ Labour voters in Scotland.
This YT clip has had 442 views, and most of them have been via WOS. Please help get it spread further. Jim Murphy is a toxic element in Scottish public life – he does not represent ‘ordinary’ Labour voters, and should not be allowed to pretend that he does.
link to youtube.com
The National are also able to pay bloggers/columnists for their work, which is not to be sneezed at.
Already Mike Small, Andrew Tickell, Michael Gray (looking very dapper) and others have been published.
Now that it is permanent I am sure that more commissions will be forthcoming. Enabling people who have done so much work to actually get paid for some.
Greg Moodie has been ‘asked to get in touch with the editor.’ (although in view of his totally shameless lobbying, that might be for a ticking off!)
The National needs our support.
We need at least one newspaper singing our song. That newspaper group on a purely financial basis have identified a market and are now tapping into that.
Remember all newspaper sales are declining. If the national is shown to be a success then other papers will change their stance simply to sell more copies and not go out of business. Even the DR will after the next election if labour get wiped out. Labour are currently the big scottish westminster party therefore the DR supports them when that position reverses the DR with change as well.
It is crucial that we reach the retired generation that gets their news from the MSM.Once they are presented with the facts and not the spin then it’s game over for Westminster.
Interesting article and I agree with most of what is said, but I’d disagree that governments can create wealth, and I would add that Holyrood’s new “power” to tax personal income, actually means Holyrood would have to cut social benefits.
First, and this may be a minor point, I take it that producers, not governments, create the wealth of society. It’s that wealth that is squandered by private interests called corporations. So, the social wealth produced by Scots can’t be shared by Scots as corporate taxation has not devolved to Scotland. (We don’t disagree that corporate taxing power is needed here.)
But, (my second point) Holyrood not only cannot realistically raise personal taxes, it would have to cut social benefits to collect any personal tax at all, even if there is no increase in those taxes. That is, Holyrood would need to pay for a new infrastructure for the administration of collecting those taxes. The article shows in part why Holyrood cannot raise personal taxes to pay for social benefits. But what the article misses, and I take as even worse for Holyrood, is that to pay for a new infrastructure simply to collect personal taxes, it must then allocate funding for it and the only other source of funding is to cut benefits — a win for Westminster, as they hold the the power through corporate taxation to control the social wealth of Scotland and the extent to which benefits can be dispensed while Holyrood’s only power is to determine which benefits to cut to fund it’s new taxing authority.
Morag,
“This is a capitalist economy. Goods and services are provided in order that people may make a profit or at least a salary. The fact that Newsquest has decided to run with this one is something to celebrate, not criticise.”
Why does Newsquest continue to publish the LOSS MAKING Herald then?
Are the publishers of loss making ‘The Scotsman’ and ‘The Record’ socialist?
(I know you avoid giving meaningful answers to difficult questions.)
Dr JM Mackintosh,
“You’re a twat fuck off.”
Has anything meaningful come out of your regular formal complaints to the likes of BBC?
Finally had time to read The National. Fron cover and pages 2-11 and 32 cut the stuffing out of Smith report. 12 and 13 Iain McW ripping the BBC. 31 effectively rips the CBI for its totally predictable stance against APD devolution.
WTF does anyone want, every word on the paper saying F*** Unionists?
There’s definitely Unionist trolls on the prowl.
And considering the Smith Report will be the basis for fighting the 2015 General Election, does anyone seriously think it’s a total coincidence that The National launched in the week the Smith Report came out? Perfect timing (apart from pre-Ref of course).
Anyway, Carmichael is repeating his line that “the SNP should move on from the Referendum”, and now using it to say that their complaints about the Smith Report are “you’re not going to get Independence from it”.
Total disinformation and an attempt to discredit the SNP, which the BBC are delighted in the person of Porter to pick up and repeat and repeat.
The SNP need to work hard to get the message out “Smith is not delivering Devo-Max, nor any substantial powers”, but they need to make it crystal clear and unambiguous, specifically stating that they were not looking for Independence to come out of Smith, but they were looking for “extensive powers”, and this is not it.
brown trolls the nation
link to bbc.co.uk
love the ‘nazi salute’ photo the BBC have used
maybe there’s life in the old dog yet?
@ Ian Brotherhood
With respect, Ian, I want to see the evidence in this clip but whatever it is I’m missing it. Please detail.
Some of the comments regarding the National would be funny if this wasn’t a serious subject. I’m reminded of the joke about the drowning man that was sure his god would save him, ignoring a life jacket,tree limb, nearby islands etc’ before ending up in front of the big Guy and berating him for not saving him to which the big Guy says what do you mean, I sent you a Life jacket, tree limb etc’. This is the same thing, its a gift horse and its being looked in the mouth. Is something this positive not better than all of the nonsense we have had pushed on us by the MSM and EBC?
It worries me when I see us falling out amongst ourselves as this is exactly what the unionists want, they know how much damage it does because they fall into that trap pretty frequently themselves
MacBain: I’d disagree that governments can create wealth
A slogan one of the fallacies of neo-liberalism. Then again, neo-cons and their self-interested followers distort for their own means almost everything Adam Smith wrote, including The Wealth of Nations.
A government that implements policies to help its population thrive CAN create wealth. It is taken for granted, for example, that Roosevelt’s policies helped the US make its way out of the Great Depression. Neo-liberals will have us believe that was a fluke.
‘Less government!’ shout neo-liberals, when they really mean fewer taxes on them.
All that governments can do is create a FRAMEWORK for wealth creation.
Bearing this in mind and that we live in the internet age where entrepreneurs (I don’t include bankers in this) risk savings to create jobs/wealth, you should be careful as they can move their firms and jobs anywhere.
So all this talk about liberalism, socialism, capitalism or any other “ism” is just political branding…
@R.M.A.C.
THE ONES DOING THE FALLING OUT ARE THE UNIONISTS. AS I SAID ON A PREVIOUS POST,WE AT WINGS OVER SCOTLAND ARE NOW WELL KNOWN BY THE OPPOSITE VIEW, AND CAN EXPECT TROLLS FROM THE OPPOSITE SIDE TO TRY AND CREATE DISHARMONY AND DISAGREEMENT. KEEP THE FAITH.
If Scotland wants to leave the UK so be it.
But we need to amend the 1707 Act of Union Treaty to take all the ramifications (e.g. the currency issue) into account and answer the West Lothian Question by NOT allowing Scottish MPs to vote on English Laws BEFOREHAND.
Simple.
@manandboy (8.05) –
I’m biased, and perhaps over-egging it, but Murphy’s appearance that evening was provocative and reckless, and the reaction was vicious.
I’ve been in a lot of crowds at demos etc, and I’ve never experienced an atmosphere like that. The man is despised. It was a baying crowd to be sure, but it’s important to acknowledge that most of those shouting were not the usual array of party-affiliated activists. They were ordinary punters, many involved with foodbank-related voluntary work, who wanted to let Labour know exactly how they felt about their £200-a-skull gala dinner.
The MSM have made no effort whatever to reflect this hostility, and ‘normal’ diehard Labour voters cannot – and will not – get their heads around what has happened to their party unless they see for themselves how their representatives behave, and are received, in public.
If Alex Salmond had been greeted by such a crowd at any time in the past three years? BBC Scotland would’ve played it on a loop right up until Sep 18th.
Tam Jardine, nice to see you guys have got over the shame of declining to join Douglas on the Chevvy Chase. “The Jardine’s widnae wi him ride and they rue it to this day!” 🙂
Anent Danny Alexander, are there separate referendum results for Badenoch, it was pretty well plastered with YES posters.
@Ian Brotherhood
“I’m biased, and perhaps over-egging it, but Murphy’s appearance that evening was provocative and reckless, and the reaction was vicious.”
“over-egging”… “Murphy”…
I see what you did there! 😉
Air Passanger Duty:
Heard this morning that Osborne is thinking of removing it from children. So this would reduce the effectiveness of Scotland reducing APD.
Fred
I knew someone would bring that up. It was over 600 years but you canny let it lie.
Unbelievable.
Look on the bright side Tam, there’s always Jardine, Matheson the famous philanthropic trading company! 🙂
The (Gibraltar) Rock: Dr MacIntosh – Has anything meaningful come out of your regular formal complaints to the likes of BBC?
For someone who doesn’t care it’s clear you’re glued to his ever post to keep count over the months.
Ronnie anderson. Eyes been crying for a month (True)I kept advising the SNP and Yes Scotland to belittle Darling and Brown or we were going to lose . Only one person has acknowledged I was correct Robin McAlpine. We should have fought the same dirty campaign that no fought.I keep reading my e-mails to the cabinet and Yes Scotland and thinking what could have been. Then again once bitten twice shy.
Grouse Beater. I hope you’re not assuming I’m a neo-con. Far from it. But I would still say that the wealth of society is what we, as individuals in a society, do to reshape nature to conform to our needs. You don’t have to be a neo-con believe this (and I don’t think neo-cons actually do — they believe capitalists create wealth, that is, money creates money). In the opposite pole to neo-cons, i.e., in Marxism, workers, not the state, create wealth.
Marx refers to the reshaping of nature as the “mode of production” and how we organize production are the “relations of production”. States could direct production as in war, but in our present society, that function is generally left to the private sector.
As to Roosevelt, even in his administration, the state didn’t create wealth as much as redistribute what wealth was under the control of corporations — he had a 90% tax on corporations. Marx would say that the wealth was created by the workers under a system of exploitation. He would probably say, if he were alive today, that that’s where that wealth came from in Roosevelt’s administration.
The question for Marx really is: Do we want the producers of wealth to enjoy the wealth they create or exploit producers so that the wealth they create is “owned” and controlled by private interests? In Marxist terms, under capitalism, not only is the wealth created and controlled by exploiting workers, the relations of production — how workers relate to one another as workers — are also controlled by capitalists. That is, production is social when many producers are needed for the transformation, but that social product is “owned” by capitalists.
So, even in the polar opposite of neo-cons, it’s still not the state that creates wealth. The state can print money, but that’s not wealth. It’s just the means by which wealth is distributed — the more money you have the more control you have over the wealth of society.
MacBain: it’s still not the state that creates wealth
It took two reads to get through your list of quotations before discovering you have nothing original to say.
As I stated earlier, you follow neo-liberal thinking by reducing Roosevelt’s ‘New Deal’ to vague generality while simultaneously proving his government’s policies helped remove the USA from economic disaster.
The state creates wealth by the policies it implements, as you very well know. And it can just as easily implement policies that slyly redistribute wealth upwards and keep it there. You cannot argue one way and deny the other way.
And Marx is dead a long time.
Some of his writing have resonance still, but it’s difficult to apply any of his solutions to today’s vast economic heists.
The question you don’t address is the pertinent one: how can people ensure their elected representatives represent them by helping spread wealth to benefit the majority not the few?
@Grouse Beater
“And it can just as easily implement policies that slyly redistribute wealth upwards and keep it there.”
Depends on whether someone can legitimately claim ownership of something that has essentially been stolen from others.
Though in this world where the laws are written to favour the criminals, maybe it can…
davidb says:
28 November, 2014 at 8:23 pm
1 The Scottish Government increased the amount of its contribution to local councils, but must be efficient. Theres only so much pocket money to go round.
Yes, it had to increase its contribution because it has disabled the local authorities’ ability to increase theirs. No argument about efficiency but my point was about maintaining and creating jobs. The main effect of the SG policy in this area has been to REDUCE the number of jobs so their platitudes about job creation sound a bit hollow.
2 Any increase in Council Tax is taken from the post tax income of the payers. That reduces the amount they have to spend themselves. Is the state better at spending your money or are you – given that taxes pay for foreign wars, nuclear weapons and Jim Murphy’s expenses?
Largely of every tax except income tax and NI. I have never subscribed to the view that you lower taxes and trust charities to take care for the poor, the sick and the weak. No one can ever agree about where every tax is spent but if it’s a choice between the NHS and state pensions or lower taxes and private provision then I’ll take the former every time.
3. In a Californian or Swiss referendum style of government would you think a majority of people would vote to have their Council Tax increased?
Depends on the wording of the question e.g would you like council tax increased or your local school closed might get a different answer than to your question.
In any event, nice to have a sensible, reasoned reply rather than the usual juvenile incoherence.