The less-deserving pro-independence website

Wings Over Scotland

Here’s to the back of that

Posted on December 31, 2016 by

img291 (1)

Order “Welcome To Cairnstoon”, Chris’ compilation of Wings cartoons and more, here.

Print Friendly

1 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. 31 12 16 09:56

    Here’s to the back of that | speymouth

267 to “Here’s to the back of that”

  1. Socrates MacSporran says:

    True, but: “And forrit, tho’ Ah canna see, Ah guess and fear”.

    Maybe the shite we have to put up with from Better Together etc will be the least of our fears for 2017.

    Good luck to all Wingers – we might need it.

  2. Bugger (le Panda) says:

    Have a Good New Year when it comes.

    Same to all the readers and contributors and that other occasional contributor from close to Wales.

  3. Dr Jim says:

    Note to Kevin McKenna:

    Try getting up earlier in the morning when you’re trying to pull the wool over folks eyes, you’re as transparent as a hospital windae son

    Which under the SNP is see through and quite a lot of us remember the way Labour used to run our health service thanks very much and no matter how much you’d like to project, the SNHS has never in it’s history been in better shape considering the Tory cuts not the SNPs

    Even in the death throws of Labour buffoons like McKenna still long for the days that never were and want them back

    Jeez! whit dae these folk use for memory cells

  4. jimnarlene says:

    Through the looking glass, right enough.

    All the best, for 2017, Wingers.

  5. Bob Mack says:

    A return to the Dark Ages indeed. Still, I have Wings ,and the company of all the torch bearers who shine light where there is a lack of clarity. They will get me through.
    I wish all fellow Wingers a happy 2017 and those those gifts I wish myself. Liberty and Peace.

    Chris, you are a star.

  6. Auld Rock says:

    Such a parcel of rogues in one picture. Best to all of you come The Bells.

    Auld Rock

  7. Ruglonian says:

    Excellent as usual Chris 🙂

    All the best for 2017 to Stu and all the Wingers – Have a good time at the bells, and I’ll see you on the other side!

  8. Grouse Beater says:

    I wonder who the sinister art security guard represents?

    Have a creatively productive 2017, Chris. More wit from your box of pens, please.

    Your weekend reading:

    A death in the family:

  9. Ian McCubbin says:

    Have a good New Year Stuart and same to all readers.

  10. mumsyhugs says:

    At least the only way is up from here – isn’t it?!!? Please tell me that’s so!!

    Anyway, mumsyhugs and orrabest for the Ne’erday and beyond to Stu, Chris and all the posters and lurkers out there – and soft ‘no-ers’ who visit the site and who will hopefully realise that we’re not vile cybernats and are welcome in the broad church of folks who just want us to have control over our own destiny. 🙂

  11. galamcennalath says:

    While the mess that was 2016 is international, it has set the scene for Scotland’s two possible futures. Over the next couple of years we will need to make our minds up which path we travel.

    There will only be two choices, so a challenge will be to ensure no Vow2 deflections are possible. The SNP/SG have so far made a pretty good job of getting the ‘middle way’ on the table now, then to be dismissed by WM itself.

    Right now, 2016 looks shite. In five years we may look back and see it as the beginning of the end on our quest for self determination in a socially democratic Scotland.

  12. louis.b.argyll says:

    Looks like the Grim Reaper is embarrassed to be included in that ‘mug shot of the suspects of 16’

  13. Clootie says:

    The original four horsemen have worthy apprentices.

    Apart from Death the others are motivated by self interest and narrow bigotry. Death treats everyone the same… and on that cheery note.. Happy New when it comes.

    …to a better, fairer Scotland

  14. winifred mccartney says:

    Thanks to Stu and Chris for keeping us sane in the midst of madness – thank you for all your great work and to all the contributors on here thank you for your knowledge, patience and good wishes – I hope you all have a great new year and to our many friends still finding their way to us, come aboard you will be welcomed with open arms.

  15. torquil houghmagandie fflufington smythe says:

    OT. Whatho chaps and chapesses
    Shoot to kill I always say. It seems the late unlamented [in these parts] M.T. may have travelled in the County Set at some point and absorbed this piece of country lore.
    I tried to locate the article in the Herald today but it appears to have vanished, no doubt some of the accolytes of the Sainted Maggie have had a word in the ear of the owners of that paper.
    Enjoy our ancient festivity and be carefull not to shoot too many natives.

  16. defo says:

    It’s not a gallery as such Grouse. That’s one way glass.
    You must have led a sheltered, good life 🙂

    You used to get paid to make up the numbers on the other side. I did it once.
    Not one of us looked anything like the alleged perp.

    Re ‘guard’. Either the ghost of Nixon, or a very young Kissinger.
    Death’s looking well.

  17. Macart says:

    A grim year right enough. One I’ll be glad to see the back of for sure.

    A very good new year when it comes folks. Let’s see if we can move from ‘peak hate’ to ‘peak hope’ in 2017.

  18. Croompenstein says:

    Happy New Year Chris, is that the four ba’ you always get stuck behind.. 🙂

  19. Robert Peffers says:

    That was indeed the year that was.
    Will the year that is about to start be better?

    Not if The Westminster Establishment has anything to do with it.

    It is up to all of us to see that they lose their grip on Scotland in the year about to be born.

    So, ever mind Happy New Year, – Here’s to a Happy New, (independent), Era.

  20. liz says:

    Grim indeed, let’s hope 2017 will be an improvement.

    Thanks to Stu, Chris and other contributors for all the useful info against project fear.

    All the best for Hogmanay and 2017 to fellow wingers.

  21. Phronesis says:

    If Scotland wants to walk away from a mantra that espouses higher personal income inequality, concentrated wealth distribution that strengthens the economic elite and allows it to increase its distance from a middle class that hovers at the margins of the precariat class(zero hour contracts, food , energy insecurity) – a destabilised, enfeebled democracy -and a bleak future for the next generation then it must leave behind those political parties that want to shackle Scotland to the socio-economic hazard of WM policies.

    An emboldened YES movement will re-ignite because the reasons for remaining with UKOK no longer hold. Why keep asking for the same punitive agenda at the ballot box. Vote for our parties of independence at both local and national levels and give a message of clear intent as Scotland moves inexorably towards its final destination – a positive, inclusive, progressive, internationalist but autonomous nation. Other countries may want to follow Scotland’s lead- the new order need not be UKIP, proxy wars, dismantled state infrastructure, crises of economy, rising inequality and democracy.

  22. Steve Bowers says:

    Another classic, well done Chris. Happy new year abidy, bring on 2017 I’m rarin to go, one convert at a time.

  23. manandboy says:

    Wishing Stu, Chris and every reader of Wings, a very Happy New Year.

    Personally, I won’t be happy till Scotland is Independent, and I’m sure many will be the same. But I will enjoy May’s Council elections – I hope!

  24. heedtracker says:

    Happy New Year from Auckland New Zealand!!! Vile separatist NZ, and yes, there’s still lots of cringers here too, and lots of immigrant English explaining how shite Scotland’s going to be, unless we’re run by you know who… Scotland’s nothing like NZ apparently:D

  25. Reginald says:

    I will be watching the Hogmanay party on BBC Alba,prefer it to BBC Scotland’s offering.

  26. Flower of Scotland says:

    @Dr Jim 9.44am

    I quite agree. Kevin McKenna should try looking at Labour “achievements” without the rose coloured specs!

    Happy New year to all Wingers, when it comes, and a huge thank you to Stu for the best Indy blog ever!

    Looking forward to more from you Stu in 2017.

  27. Seaglass says:

    Long time lurker but too shy to post. My grateful thanks to all who do. Your humour,wit and erudition have made sure the beacon is still well alight. This site was the only thing which lifted me out of the black pit of despair after the 18th of September. My best wishes to one and all for a Guid New Year in the hope it will bring closer what we all want.

  28. Chris Cairns says:

    @Grouse Beater – My original title was Usual Suspects (the Rev’s in charge of that dept.) which would have perhaps made doubly clear it’s a police lineup, not a gallery. But then, if the drawing’s good enough it should be clear 🙁

    Anyhoo, my thanks to all on here for your support through the year. So you know, my wife goes through the comments each week and picks out the most gushing ones just to give me a riddy.

    All the best for 2017.

  29. Thepnr says:

    @Chris Cairns

    I know who the 4 Usual Suspects are, took a wee while to get Assad and I hope that’s right. I’m guessing the old lady is us, the witness and that she is nearing the end of her days.

    The sinister guy in the background though. I have my thoughts but choose not to share them, well, at least for now 🙂

    Thanks for all the cartoons and the intrigue, you and yours have a guid New Year.

  30. Grouse Beater says:

    Chris: “It’s a police lineup, not a gallery”

    Ah, that duly negates what I mistook for a crappy frame. 🙂

    My erroneous perception is what is called, a precognitive shift of force to the cue. Honestly.

  31. Dan Huil says:

    Where’s Sarah Smith? Bailed by the bbc?

  32. Clapper57 says:

    Kezia’s New Year message: “Being part of the UK is even more important to Scotland than staying in the EU”.

    Is it not a constant that Labour are the party determined to undermine Scotland at every opportunity ?

    The Scottish branch office are feckin clueless , bereft of political talent and intelligence , willingly controlled by their masters at HQ whose only allegiance is to THE country that will gain them power at WM ……….they really really really are the political party that Scottish people should be oh so embarrassed to admit that they support .

    Keiza’s allegiance to the UKOK is NOT commendable but pathetic and treacherous to the parliament she sits in. She forgets who she is suppose to serve, not elected to serve by the way, as a superior candidate trounced her , however she is part of a SCOTTISH parliament and thus is expected to promote and defend Scotland and it’s people. And there’s the rub……

    Labour are the party that just keeps giving……empty words……empty promises……running on empty.

    I hope in 2017 and beyond that Scots who are still in a political wilderness will finally wake up to the reality of Labour and all of the other Unionist parties.

    It is all very well and right to have an opposition to a government but currently what we have at Holyrood are Unionist opposition parties who are openly opposed to Scotland and the rights of it’s people and that is definitely not worth voting for.

    Happy New Year to you and yours.

  33. velofello says:

    Farange doesn’t appear to have very broad shoulders, and they slope steeply downwards.

    I’m sure I read somewhere of the broad sharing caring shoulders of the YooKay and its adherents?

    Best Wishes to all for the coming year. It’s going to be eventful I’m sure.

  34. Joannie says:

    Happy new year everyone, and all the best for 2017.

  35. Hamish100 says:

    Another year goes by from 2014.
    My great nephew and niece are 13 and 3 — another generation or two- time for indy ref2 but only when we win.

    Watched an old hack buying a mail and a telegraph- (glutten for punishment this morning). 1 tory ukippy buying 2 ukippy tory papers. Probably thinks he has breadth of knowledge of what is happening in north britain.

    Happy New Year.

  36. Robert Kerr says:

    A Guid New Year tae ane and awe!

    And here’s tae the back o’ Shiehallion!

    2017 shall be a good one! Let’s make it so.

    Thanks to Stu, Chris and all the Wingers for all your efforts.

  37. Artyhetty says:

    Is T. May, death? Given the many who have lost their lives due to tory attacks on the sick and disabled, some attacked just for being poor, I think it must be.

    Who knows what 2017 will bring. WoS and other great blogs do a great job, to say the least. We can’t allow the rich and powerful to call the shots, because if we do they will bring an end to this planet. We won’t allow them to destroy our the future for greed.

    Have a fabulous HOGMANAY and a happy, peaceful new year, everyone. I don’t call today new years eve as it was when I lived in england, have known it as Hogmanay for nearly 30 years.

    Have a great time all, and all the best for 2017.

  38. Capella says:

    Depressing isn’t it. R Scotland still talking about all the celebrities who died in 2016. Grim.
    Fortunately, nothing of any importance has been drawn to their attention so far.
    Thanks for the year of cartoons Chris. Always a little light on the darkness!

    New Year is coming and I resolve to enjoy it, in spite of everything!

  39. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Re the guy in the corner of the cartoon – maybe it’s just me, but, he looks a wee bit like Kevin McKenna.

  40. John H. says:

    Great cartoon Chris. Good riddance to 2016.
    heedtracker says:
    31 December, 2016 at 11:50 am

    “lots of immigrant English explaining how shite Scotland’s going to be, unless we’re run by you know who… Scotland’s nothing like NZ apparently:D”.

    If Westminster rule is so wonderful, why are they living over there?

  41. sassenach says:

    Happy New Year to everyone on here, Stu, Chris and all the ‘regulars’.

    There have been times this year when I have become very down about us ever achieving independence – but shortly after I am ‘lifted’ by some excellent comments on Wings (Robert Peffers in particular for his constitutional output!).

    2017 has got to see progress in our cause! Whaurs like us?

  42. Thepnr says:

    Socrates MacSporran says:

    “Re the guy in the corner of the cartoon – maybe it’s just me, but, he looks a wee bit like Kevin McKenna.”

    He does, just a wee bit though. I think he represents all those who are always in the background, meddling and controlling, like the CIA or MI5 on behalf of those we never see or hear about.

    I don’t really care who he is, I’m just an Independence supporter but know that when the truth is revealed, the shit will hit the fan.

    Wings and all who visit seek only the truth. Drives “them” mad so it does LOL. The suspicious looking guy is just keeping a watching brief over events.

  43. dakk says:

    Nice Chris

    All the best for 2017.

    And better health for anyone suffering ill health.

  44. Chic McGregor says:

    Great caricatures of al-Assad and Farage.

  45. handclapping says:

    With the jowls you’ve portrayed on Trump, Chris, I hope you are not looking for a USA visa after Jan 20th! Poor sensitive soul that he is.

    Arrabest 4 2017

  46. Breeks says:

    Happy Hogmanay when it happens.

    I heard a story Lidles have coal in their stores for first footing. Looks like I’ll be doing my shopping in Lidles now. It’s the wee things. Maybe they’re a sign of bigger things.

    I’m indifferent to the new year. Same rut as last year, and the rancid local corruption goes from strength to strength. Just another year older, and no escape ticket yet.

    I hope instead for progress on the Indy front. I hope when the Supreme Court comments on, or even just ignores Scottish sovereignty, it becomes the catalyst for heated debate. A “known” known in Dick Cheney speak. I hope the SNP lieutenants are making sure the ground troops are properly up to speed on the issue before they set foot in any BBC studio. Derek Mackay was a powerhouse against Andrew Neil. We need to see that level of performance every time.

    It’s like the glass ceiling for women in business, or ethnic or folks from different races meeting institutional prejudice. You have to be that much better than “the norm” just to make progress at all. That’s what the SNP needs to be with the Unionist media, sharp as a razor and right on top of their brief. Nothing short of that will do. I want to see Unionist after Unionist nailed to the spot to answer how they square away the constitutional quandary of Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty. We need our population, Independentists and Unionists alike, to be fully aware of Scotland’s sovereign status.

    It’s going to matter.

    It’s going to matter twice. Sovereignty is bedrock of our claim for Independence. It is our kryponite for the Union. Scotland’s sovereignty recognised by the Pope via the Declaration of Arbroath was unique in all Christendom. It remains unique, and pristine, and waiting for us. But it is also our safety brake against Brexit. When Theresa May presses the Article 50 release, we need to brace ourselves for the Tsunami of horseshite telling us what a great opportunity it is. And I’m not talking about any compensatory access to the single market. That’s the booby prize we get as we get the boot up our arse kicking us out of Europe to stand outside with the UK yobos, bawling and brawling in the street outside. I’m already holding my nose to vote SNP because Independence is the more important grievance I hold, but if the SNP sells out my European citizenship for token access to the single market, then take a warning, I won’t we feckin’ happy.

    There isn’t anything else frankly. Commerce locally is non existent. My High Street looks like New Years Day every day of the year. I was going to say it resembles Aleppo, but that’s a tasteless remark, a raw and joyless slight at the expense of the Syrians. When I was a kid, you could not walk the pavement without stepping into the gutter for the crowd. Changed days. A tweak in local council isn’t going to change that. Hellfire, it’s the rancid Council which has largely brought it about.

    That’s what I want in 2017. If Independence is beyond us, how about deliverance from evil?

  47. Robert Peffers says:

    @Flower of Scotland says: 31 December, 2016 at 11:53 am:

    ” … Happy New year to all Wingers”, when it comes”.

    That’ll be as opposed to, “Miserable New Year to all the Yoon Whingers”, then, Flower of Scotland?

  48. Elaine Deighan says:

    Happy new year to the people who keep me sane, Stuart, all contributors & my fellow wingers. Love you all xx

  49. galamcennalath says:

    I like the sentiment of this old toast ….

    May we be happy – and our enemies know it!

  50. Ron Maclean says:

    @Breeks 2.13pm

    Agree with you. I don’t think we’ll get independence without the SNP but on its recent and current performance I don’t think we’ll be getting there anytime soon. It looks like there’s been a failure to learn the lessons of Indyref1 thus the need to buy time.

  51. Ron Maclean says:

    @Breeks 2.13pm

    Agree with you. I don’t think we’ll get independence without the SNP but on its recent and current performance I don’t think we’ll be getting there anytime soon. It looks like there’s been a failure to learn the lessons of Indyref1 thus the need to buy time.

    Happy New Year to all.

  52. yesindyref2 says:

    @Ron Maclean
    I think the SNP are doing similar to what they did for the General Election, that’s working for the majority. So for the GE it was more powers up to Devo-Max, as supported by around 66% in Scotland, and now it’s EU / single market as supported by 62% in the ref (65% according to a recent poll). They’re going the slower steady route, and no real option but to do that.

    I think a lot of us, me included, are getting impatient with that, but it is the right thing to do. Rather than going flat out for Indy to cater for the 45% (up to 48% perhaps in polls), they are, whatever the Unionists like to say, respecting the democratic votes of the People of Scotland who voted 55% NO to Independence, but only 38% to leave the EU with the rest of the UK (see the way I put that).

    And what they are doing is basically forcing Theresa May to say to us all “get lost”. Well, I can live with that 🙂

    On top of that though I think there’s more significance to the coming UKSC appeal decision, perhaps even more major than the result of both referendums, and until that’s known, it really is wait and see.

  53. frogesque says:

    @galamcennalath 3.44

    Superb toast! Slaite! To all Wingers and those who wish Scotland well I hope 2017 will be kind to yous.

    To those who would do us down, may you be content with your misery.

  54. Smallaxe says:

    May I wish all Wingers and the whole of the “YES” movement of all creeds colours and orientation, a happy, prosperous and Peacefull New Year which brings us closer to our ultimate goal of Independence.

    A dream you dream alone is only a dream.A dream we dream together is Reality

    Peace Always

  55. galamcennalath says:

    yesindyref2 almost said:

    55% voted NO to Independence, but only 38% to LEAVE the EU with the rest of the UK

    Very well put. Sums up a situation which needs resolving by another vote, when the time and circumstances are right.

  56. yesindyref2 says:

    Here’s a good one from the Andromeda I’m rewatching:

    “When they are dying tell them a riddle,
    And when they laugh,
    Let the Gods of Nature
    Finish what we have started”.

    Amen to that!

  57. Stoker says:

    Why is ‘Tricky Dicky Nixon’ outside the frame 😉

    You know, folks, it’s a bad state of affairs when you look at that Cairnstoon and think to yourself; Jeez, The Reaper’s the only one i’d trust.

    Have a great 2017 when it comes folks, all the very best.

    Gaberlunzie – 1320

  58. velofello says:

    Ha Stoker, I couldn’t decide on Nixon or a be-speckled Tory, Murdo Fraser MSP (A lucky Dip Holyrood winner, on just 10,353 votes behind the winner).

  59. Marie Clark says:

    Hi Folks,
    had a very busy day cooking away and getting the steak pie ready.

    Can relax a wee bit now, everything in order for folk coming round later.

    If I don’t get back later, a guid new year tae all of you. You keep me sane when a the crap gets to you at times. A special Happy New Year to our constitutional expert, our very own Robert Peffers. Thank you for all your knowledge that you impart Robert. lang may yer lum reek.

    Oh before I go, good cartoon Chris, kinda gied me the heebie jeebies a wee bit though.

  60. Marcia says:

    Have a good and happy 2017.

  61. Gary45% says:

    Cracking cartoon as usual Chris.
    I think everyone on WoS would admit 2016 has been,
    one hell of a year.
    But on the last day, the prospect of Murdo “Brenda’s 11 WATP” Fraser’s, coupon while p*shing out excuses on Twatter for his teams’ abysmal performance, cheers me up no end !!
    Happy New Year to all visionaries.(you know who you are)
    and Roll On 2017.

  62. Dorothy Devine says:

    ‘The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.’ -Eleanor Roosevelt

    I rather like that.

    Happy New year and may 2017 bring us everything we wish for our country.

    And many thanks to all the sanity savers I find here and on WGD.

  63. dramfineday says:

    Nice to see you’re a fan of Terry Pratchett Chris, Death looks quite the part in amongst that ensemble.

    Meantime happy Hogswatch opps I mean Hogmanay and a guid new year tae ye aw.

  64. Iain More says:

    Pretty much sums up what was a shit year. Probably not fair to Death putting him in the same room as the other three. Unless that is a prediction of what Theresa May will look like in a few short weeks.

    The stovies are ready pretty much and the No Yoons sign is up on the door.

    Bliadhna mhath ur and I hope that 2017 is a better year for you all unless you are a Yoon that is and if you are then may the reaper call on you and hell mend yee!

  65. Ron Maclean says:


    I take your points and I agree we have to wait for the SC decision but that shouldn’t be long. What will we wait for then? We go from one waiting room to the next while we wait for the next “game changer”. Right now we are in the same position and being asked the same questions as we were in Sept. 2014.

    We won’t get far if we don’t support the SNP. They have to offer more than self-generation. Elections are never far away as the low flying jimmies found out to their cost. I’m sure the SNP leadership could find plenty to do if they looked in the right places and read the right blogs. Their MPs could do more than just fill gaps in Westminster by addressing the questions raised in 2014.

  66. yesindyref2 says:

    So here’s a thought for anyone who can be bothered thinking on this day. Put yourself in the shoes of a political historian in 2025 in Independent Scotland, looking back at 10 years of Scottish history, and what significance would 2016 have in the long-term achievement of Independence?

    I’d call it the year of the Tactics of Illusion. What you see is not what you get.

  67. Lochside says:

    One death I am eagerly anticipating is that of the oxymoron known as the ‘United Kingdom’. On a more positive note, I am also anticipating the resusitation of Scotland’s iNDEPENDENT sovereign status in or out of the EU.

    On an even more positive thought: A guid New Year to all Wingers and a challenge to Ruth Davidson and her No Surrender mob of meanies and colonial creeps..’Bring it on!’

  68. Chess man. says:

    Hope all you eagle-eyed Wingers soar higher this new year! As per ElDeighan @3.20pm. Are these 2 ‘leaders of the world’ really about to warmly embrace each other – in love? Your fine cartoon Chris, is as morally telling as that Lithuanian artist’s ‘holy Tsar’ Putin and ‘pussy’kat Trump – in a loving ‘snog of death’? Can anyone here post in a copy so we can all benefit from their Platonic(sic) relationship?

  69. yesindyref2 says:

    @Ron Maclean
    I really don’t know if the SNP know what they’re doing or not. Are they working to a plan, or just reacting as things happen? Are they taking advantage of every solitary thing that happens, are they missing out, or are responses to them forced by them in the first place? I don’t know.

    It seems to be going OK to me, there’s still a steady 48% support, and I think that includes some of the YESsers having got frustrated and saying they’ve changed to a NO out of anger, compensated by NOes moving to YES, but there’s a mass of undecided some on our side, but most on the other side – the NO side. For me right at this moment with the right kick in the backside, Indy support is anywhere from between around 40% and 70%. All it needs is the right trigger to go the right way.

    With the UKSC, Sewel Convention, May and her Brexit, Article 50 with or without consent from Holyrood, and the Tories in Holyrood doing their very best for Indy Ref 2 in their arrogant ignorance, I think 2017 will be the year of the Tactics of Sovereignty. And it could be a case of we either have it, or we don’t and what are we going to do about it?

    Believe it or not I’m sober as a Judge at the moment!

  70. ben madigan says:

    Happy New Year to Rev Stu and all Wingers.
    Special thanks to Chris for his cartoons and to and all the posters and commentators for their bright conversations,interchanges and voices.
    let Scotland make 2017 one of the years that defines her Independence

  71. handclapping says:

    You can add the Beeb to the usual suspects. A day syne the hiheidyin says she’ll win back trust … we get New Year messages from the fisrt 2nd 3rd and FIFTH largest parties at Holyrood! I just wish the Beeb would crash to 15% too.

  72. kininvie says:


    Alex is a gambler and he lost. He backed an outsider and it did well, but not well enough.

    Nicola is not a gambler. She will wait as long as she possibly can for the full horror of the right-wing Brexit to sink in. That may take longer than either you or I think desirable. She is also sitting on a massive heap of data from the National Survey, and because of the detail in the questions, she will know fine well what needs to be done to get the win.

    Remember that telling quote from Rob Shorthouse about running, not the campaign you’d like to run, but the campaign the data tells you to run? BT stuck rigidly to that while the rest of us ran around with stickers and balloons. It was fun, but we lost…

    That’s not going to be the case next time.

  73. Ron Maclean says:


    We might not completely agree but now they know they’re being watched.

    I’ll leave sovereignty to the SC. I don’t want to spoil Robert’s Hogmanay.

    I’m sober too – it’s going to be a long boring night.

  74. Bill Cochrane says:

    As if 2016 hasn’t been bad enough there going to add an extra second to it at midnight. Bummer!

    When 2017 eventually arrives, let’s hope it’s a great year. I’m an avid Wings reader and don’t post much but hopefully can still count myself as part of the Wings family.

    So, to all you purveyors of freedom, have a Happy New Year and all the best for the future.

  75. bugsbunny says:

    That utter fraud and fud Kezia Dugdale has announced in her “New Year’s Message” that Scotland’s place in the UK is much more important than Scotland’s place in the EU.

    She changes her mind more times than I’ve had a cold.

    What a twat.

    Happy New Year to all Wingers.

  76. Ruby says:

    Happy Hogmanay to everyone!

    I had a walk along Princes Street earlier today and it all looked brilliant. There were lots of people from all over the world here in Edinburgh to celebrate New Year. It was all very international with lots of markets selling different foods & gifts from all over Europe.
    I do love being European.

    Lots of bandstands and big screen all over the place. A side street jam packed with porta-loos! It all looked very organised. It was a wee bit windy & a bit of rain but it looks as if the weather will be good for the Hogmanay party!

  77. fillofficer says:

    you lot are just not paying attention. the REV has already told you that 2017 is gonna be the most tedious year ever & he’s NEVER wrong (is he ?) so its early stupor & bed early for me. Love being part of the wings clan, gives one edumacashun, humour & hope. awrabestest

  78. defo says:


    “Alex is a gambler and he lost. He backed an outsider and it did well, but not well enough.”

    Eck was at the head of the Gradualists, which has been the strategy since 1990.
    2012 surprised everyone,and it gave the mandate. Not a gamble, more an obligation. I suspect we (inc Alex) all knew it was too early.

  79. Ruby says:


    Why are you going to bed early tonight? Are you running a marathon tomorrow or are you planning on plunging into 2017 with an early morning icy swim?

    Going to bed early is boring!

    I’m not going to bed early I’m going to party! I’m currently looking through all my music to see what I can put on my Hogmanay playlist. I think it’s going to be a Hard Rock party!

  80. Ruby says:


    The 2014 IndyRef was just a dress rehearsal.

    Everyone learned lots during that dress rehearsal and come the main performance it will most definitely be ‘alright on the night’

  81. yesindyref2 says:

    @kininvie / @defo
    I think Salmond was a bit pushed into the Indy Ref, though after the promise a few weeks before the 2011 election he had little choice. He might have been surprised at the increase in support, but I think a main purpose was the awakening, and to make Independence mainstream rather than the province of some nutters like us. He / we succeeded.

    Yes, Sturgeon strikes me as more of a deep planner rather than one who plays off the cuff. That does mean even us Indy people don’t neccessarily know what game she’s playing, what cards she has up her sleeve. I remember in the Ref posting that the SNP had cards up their sleeve and were waiting to play them “Keeping their powder dry”. Well, by Sep 18th the powder was still dry, but perhaps that’s also because it was going well and Salmond didn’t want to rock the boat. Long-term that’s probably wise. My feeling though is that we’re approaching the endgame rapidly, perhaps more quickly than anyone expects.

    @Ron Maclean
    I think they watch us, and read below the line. I like, if that’s the case, to keep them off balance, and I don’t think it does any harm even if they read my posting telling them that, as it makes them even more off-balance and likely to respond in the wrong way.

    Do you hear that Unionists? You’re totally outclassed and outgunned, run for the hills! The seventh cavalry is on OUR side! Surrender and we’ll be merciful, honest uk gov.

  82. Croompenstein says:

    Ach weel Waterboys oan fu bung Sweet Thing.. first time I’ll never say happy new year to my dad kinda strange..

    Happy New Year Stu and all the Wingers.. johnking hello..

  83. Free Scotland says:

    Thanks, Chris, for this latest cartoon, and thanks, Stu, for all the insightful articles. This site is a veritable treasure trove.

    More Scots (particularly those who voted NO to Scotland’s freedom) need to be made aware of the fact that the true face of Brexit is not the face of Theresa May, nor Boris Johnson, but the face of Nigel Farage, a fascist thug who oozes hatred for Scotland and its people. Dugdale, Davidson, Rennie and their hingers-oan provide him with oxygen.

  84. mike d says:

    Happy new year to all wingers.

  85. McDuff says:

    Many thanks Rev and to all at Wings for your hard work in keeping the Indy boat well and truly afloat. Have a good New Year.

  86. Ghillie says:

    Happy Happy Hogmanay Rev Stu, Chris, Hamish and all Wingers the world over = )

    Wishing you and yours a wonderful, joyful and hopeful 2017 xxx

    I believe this is the beginning of our new beginning.

    Nicola is canny and clever beyond measure. She and her colleagues are building up the evidence and preparing the strongest case for Scottish Independence that this electorate has ever seen. Our dreams are in good hands = )

    And to all the World, Peace and Love and Hope

  87. Tam Jardine says:

    Hope everyone has a great Hogmanay and I wish all my friends on Wings a happy and fruitful 2017. Am spending the weekend in the shadow of the hill where the standard was raised back in 1745… alba gu brath my brothers and sisters

  88. North chiel says:

    The ” Supreme Court” judgement is next up , and I wouldn’t
    be surprised to see the decision to favour the ” devolved” governments, as
    after all the credibility of the supposed “UK Supreme Court”
    is also being judged.However, if they decide that Edinburgh ,Cardiff & Belfast should
    be “consulted”, I am quite sure that TM will ” consult and ignore” and continue
    with her inflexible dictorial ( I’ll decide) style of ” leadership” .

  89. Thepnr says:

    This headline from the Dundee Courier:

    Serious mistakes in NHS hospital patient care soar, figures reveal

    Then reading a little further you learn:

    The NHS England statistics, obtained by the Liberal Democrat health spokesman Norman Lamb, showed the number of serious incidents involving sub-optimal care more than doubled to 588 in 2015/16 from 260 two years previously.

    Why is the Courier writing about England’s NHS? They never give up, the propaganda is relentless that’s why we should never rest either.

    Rant over, all the best to the Rev Stu and our merry band of Wingers when the bells ring. 2017 I think has a lot of promise.

    Sorry to hear that you will be unable to wish your Da a good one this year. I know how that hurts.

  90. HandandShrimp says:

    Happy New Year when it comes folks. 2016 was a strange year, here is hoping that 2017 is a lot more peaceful, prosperous and a lot less homicidal….

    …and that edge ever closer to independence 🙂

  91. Thepnr says:

    Link to the Courier article:

    Not worth reading though, just proving it exists!

  92. Gary45% says:

    Sorry Dugdale is not yet up to FUD status, more like YTS FUD, but not time served FUD.

  93. Capella says:

    I too am still sober. But I intend to remedy that soon. So I’ll wish you all a very happy New Year and all the best in 2017. As Donald would say “It’s going to be beautiful” !

  94. Croompenstein says:

    cheers Alex it hurts sair… guid ane to you and yours..

  95. One_Scot says:

    I don’t know the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything, or for that matter what will happen in 2017, but there is one thing I do know, the UK has now changed forever, and it will never be the same as it once was.

    We now either limp on with a broken union indefinitely, or we make Scotland the country it should be.

    To be honest, it really isn’t a difficult decision.

  96. Ian Brotherhood says:

    I would very much like, as a wee kick-start to the new year, if some lurkers would say hello, especially those who were previously ‘No’ voters but have changed their mind.

    It would be a richt guid tonic with which to welcome The Bells!

    We know you’re there!


  97. Cactus says:

    So here we all are, on the ‘edge of seventeen..’

    Auld Lang Syne, it’s our international anthem.. sing it passionately proud tonight.

    Here’s to all and cheers to all for Scotland 2017!

  98. yesindyref2 says:

    Yay! Lurkers.

    Those of you who read our witterings and arguments and don’t post, please just say Happy New Year to us, as we, well speaking for myself, I, wish you and all posters and Rev and Chris and other writers, Happy New Year!

  99. Chess man. says:

    Re @5.56pm Found that “disgusting trash art” mural . . . .
    “Just ignore those two STUPID morons, darling.” (Ahem)

  100. Alistair Donaldson says:

    Happy New Year to all Wingers from this lurker. I’m sure we’ll get there sooner than later.

  101. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Alistair Donaldson –


    Yer lurkin’ days are done!

    Welcome aboard, and more power to ye.


  102. Clydebuilt says:

    Dr. Jim @ 9.44am. “what does McKenna use for memory cells ?” The same as he uses for brain cells….. Budgies……. Yes the deliberately slow talking British Labour supporting hack’s Heid is full of BUDGIES.

  103. Lenny Hartley says:

    Happy Calender start of lap round our local star to all Wingers and Lukers and welcome to Alistair Donaldson.

  104. Meg merrilees says:

    Here’s tae us, wha’s like us – no enough yet! Here’s to 2017 and a guid year ahead to one and all.

  105. Fran says:

    Happy Newyear Wingers. Lang may yer lum reek

  106. Breeks says:

    Salmond the gambler doesn’t resonate with me. I always thought he had a rare talent for strategy, like for example the way he floated the idea of DevoMAX on the ballot, only for the Unionists to froth at the mouth and demand a single binary option, which is precisely what he wanted. Turkeys not just voting for Christmas, but stamping their feet demanding it. Classic Alex Salmond.

    I think the SNP and YES should have been much more vocal in defence of him, but all too often the propaganda prevailed, and people even on our own side were disposed to accepting he was a liar, or women didn’t like him, or people found him too smug. Smug? Why do we have a statue of Donald Dewar and a bizarre new Parliament building? The first First Minister, but from the party who brought in the 40% rule to wreck devolution in 79. Is that not just a wee bit “smug”? The Unionists ran a smear campaign against Salmond because they knew he could run circles around them politically and strategically. I can’t tell you the number of times I asked somebody who pulled a face at the mere mention of Alex Salmond to tell me a specific lie Alex Salmond had said, and they never could.

    I like Nicola too, but in a different way. Being an opportunist generally carries bad connotations, so I don’t want to use the word, but Nicola is very good at turning events to her advantage, with Brexit being the most striking example. I don’t think she has the raw cunning of Alex Salmond, but then again, I don’t think that cunning is very far away from the point where it’s needed. I think both Nicola and Alex are on the same wavelength. What’s more, I don’t think the Unionists would dare to smear Nicola the way they did Salmond. I think public opinion would quickly become very protective of “Oor Nicola” and fine the BBC craws know it.

    Credit where it’s due, support for Independence is proving resilient in defeat, and for all the lack of forward momentum since 2014, there hasn’t been a single step taken backwards. There’s a sense that Independence is like a cable tie; every click draws it closer and it’s an unforgiving one way process.

    In the wider cabinet, there are faces which inspire confidence, and faces which, well, how can I put it? Let’s just say they wouldn’t be in my cabinet. But hey, let’s stay constructive.

    I don’t pretend to like the “Swan” strategy; calm and serene above the waterline, but paddling like a demon beneath the surface. Theresa May deserves the derision she gets for keeping her Brexit plans to herself, and yet the SNP also asks for a lot to be taken on trust. I’m a cynic. I don’t really “do” trust. Not with a politician.

    But my biggest frustration is this tired old chestnut, sovereignty. It vexes me that two years after a referendum on Independence, and an SNP is Scottish Government for a decade, why is Scotland’s historic sovereignty still a grey area of ambiguous uncertainty apparently open to conflicting interpretation? For me it feels like we are pursuing the most circuitous route possible to arrive at constitutional independence, and when we finally get there, we’re finally going to see the shortcut across the lawn which would have got us to the same destination in a fraction of the time.

    What are we afraid of? Civil war? Really? A guns and tanks war? Or bottles of Buckie at dawn civil war? Our own version of the Irish “troubles”? Fair comment? I don’t know. Those Unionists in Freedom Square seemed furious about winning, heaven help us if they’d lost. They actually seemed furious about everything, everything that is except the piss poor job Better Together made of articulating the positive case for the Union. Do we really think these blobs are representative of Unionism? Or just a vocal but insecure minority who are merely the product of a narrow and insular upbringing? It’s not a good bath they’re needing, but a wee bit of an education one on one. That isn’t a euphemism for a punch in the head by the way, I actually mean a literal sit-down-and-listen education about the country and the saltire they’ve just spat on.

    See I have a problem. I want to ask someone about it but I can’t find the Unionism in Scotland. Britnat figureheads and mouth pieces, yes, plenty of them, Britnat yobos, yes, but are they a new phenomenon or just Type cast Rangers Supporters stuck in front of a camera? Britnat propaganda, Oh yes, on every TV and shelf at the newsagent, but where do you go to to find a quiet, normal, reasonable Unionist who isn’t part of the circus? Where is grassroots Unionism? How do we engage with it?

    The more I look back on 2014, the more I see how we weren’t ready, and how superficial we were. If we had voted YES on Sept 18th, while a great many things would have changed as a direct consequence, the only ACTUAL change directly caused by the vote would have been to empower our sovereignty. We’d have flicked a switch. It really was that simple.

  107. crazycat says:

    @ Breeks

    Those Unionists in Freedom Square seemed furious about winning, heaven help us if they’d lost.

    The one in the youtube linked to earlier, who said he was “ecstatic” – made me glad I couldn’t see him when he was depressed!

    @ Everyone

    Happy New Year!

  108. Oz Lurker says:

    Hi Ian Brotherhood. Just to make you feel a wee bit better in time for the bells. A Guid New Year tae y’rsel, Stu, Chris and all Wing readers. Its 9:15am 2017 in this wee part of Oz and a beautiful bright sunny morning. Have a good one.

  109. Thepnr says:


    Another very excellent post and there is little to disagree with. However you ask:

    “but where do you go to to find a quiet, normal, reasonable Unionist who isn’t part of the circus?”

    Well for me I just need to go next door to my closest neighbour, a retired couple both around 70 years old. The husband an ex-paratrooper who broke his back in an accident. he did get patched up and is forever grateful for that. Most of their family live in England now and they don’t see them that often so we help each other out when required.

    Before the referendum though I handed them an Aye Right card over the fence with all the pro-indy sites web addresses on it, his wife took it and smiled, he just said no thanks we don’t need to look at that.

    Just before the referendum vote he put Better Together posters in his windows, that was his right. I like my neighbours, always have.

    We are still neighbours and will be unless one of us move. We are still friendly too and the referendum did not change that one bit.

    I still hope I could win them over, no harm trying.

  110. Valerie says:

    @Alistair Donaldson

    Welcome, and good job on posting Hello!

    C’mon on out you shy yins, and say Hello! We love new supporters.

    Have a good 2017, everyone.

  111. Chris, you have the enviable art of making us laugh and cry at the same time.A truly wonderful year of finely drawn observations. (Show him this one, Mrs C.) We are in your debt.
    Which one of the Usual Suspects is Kaisar Sose?(spellcheck,anyone?)
    A Happy New Year to us all. My Everlovin’ will be at the back door letting out the Old Year while I welcome our First Foot and the New Year in the front. I think that we all agree that we can’t see 2016 off the premises soon enough.
    2017 will be wondrous.

  112. Ealasaid says:

    A very happy New Year to all Wings staff, posters and readers. May 2017 not be as boring as Rev Stu predicts.

    I would like to see the Supreme Court result giving rise to more arguments to put the Unionists on the defensive. Since the Treaty Of Union says we are equal partners in this Union where is Englands Parliament? Where is Englands grant to live off? Where is Englands Barnet formula?

    These are the questions they do not want asked. They think they have got away with it. Lets make them think again. Robert Peffers has shown us the way.

  113. carjamtic says:

    Nice post,Breeks.

    The yoons,like your typical con man / shyster cannot ‘play’ the same story to the same audience too quickly,less people will know they’ve been conned,all they can do is change ‘The personnel’… the same old shite in a different wrapper.

    In Scotland we have “All the right junk,in all the right places”….Indy is coming.



  114. Still Positive. says:

    Great cartoon, Chris. A very Happy New Year to Rev. Stu and all contributors, BTL commentators and all who wish for Scottish independence.

  115. Liz g says:

    Happy New Year Everyone ,all the best when it comes.X

  116. defo says:

    Happy New Year Scotland

  117. TJenny says:

    A Happy New Year to Rev Stu and Wingers one and all – here’s hoping 2017 is great for indy. 🙂

  118. Petra says:

    Moving into 2017 now and a year closer to getting our Independence folks. Let’s hang on in there, unite with all yessers, support the SNP and continue to work our butts off to push up the numbers.

    2016 wasn’t a great year but Michael Gray reminds us that it wasn’t all doom and gloom.

    Anyway I want to take this opportunity to thank Stu, Chris and the many posters (and non-posting visitors) on here for promoting and supporting our cause to the hilt. A big thank you too to Nicola, Alex and team Scotland at Holyrood and Westminster XX

    I’m sending my love and best wishes to you all for a happy, healthy, peaceful and wealthy 2017 XX

    An oldie but still relevant:

    Another oldie and one of my favourites. We’ve been given a second chance. Let’s UP THE ANTE and break the chains that bind. Get out of this dysfunctional Union ASAP.

  119. Graf Midgehunter says:

    A very Happy New Year to one and all from the centre of Germany. Best wishes for 2017 to the Rev Stu and his team. 🙂

    Ein glückliches und fröhliches neues Jahr für alle Wingers. 🙂

  120. yesindyref2 says:

    Happy New Year!

    I decided to break the rules and go out the back door, have a roll-up, and in the front door, all AFTER the Bells. Yippee! I want to Break Free (from Westminster)!

  121. Legerwood says:

    Happy New Year and all the best for 2017.

  122. Cuilean says:

    “Auld Moses took
    A dry stick and
    Instantly it
    flooered in his hand.

    Pu Scotland up,
    And wha can say
    It winna bud
    And blossom tae.

    A miracle’s
    Oor only chance
    Up, carles, up
    And let us dance!”

  123. ScottishPsyche says:

    Happy New Year! Feel like it is an achievement to make it out of 2016 unscathed.

    Anyway, all the very best to all for 2017.

  124. Meindevon says:

    HNY to all in the Bonniest of soon to be self governing countries…Scotland!

    From Me in DDD. ( Deepest, darkest,…..)

  125. Thepnr says:

    If you make a wish now then it might come true!

    Or mibbee it won’t, no harm trying though. Happy New Year all.

  126. yesindyref2 at 6.06

    An interesting post. There is a position that is rarely pointed out.

    As we started the last referendum campaign the figures roughly calculated were 30% for independence 50% against independence and 20% don’t know.
    The situation is now about 50% (or 48%) for independence, 30% (or 32%)against and about 20% don’t know. The situation is reversed. The unionists need all of the “don’t knows” to win. Which is why they know we are winning.

    Kezia’s latest statement reveals that not only is she out of her depth but that she is a Tory.

  127. Fireproofjim says:

    Happy New Year to All
    Here’s to victory. All the sweeter for the slight delay.

  128. Tam Jardine says:

    Happy new year friends

    Salut- have a great 2017

  129. Beor says:

    Hi to all from a longtime lurker in Kiwiland.

    I don’t post – but read every day. This is an invaluable resource. – so I put my money where my mouth is when Stu asks.

    Thanks to Stu and all the regulars

  130. frogesque says:


  131. Famous15 says:


    It’s shite being Scottish We’re colonised by wankers.

    Hope 2017 ends this shite. Happy New Year.

    (Apologies to Ewen Mc Gregor)

  132. Hector says:

    Happy New Year to Rev Stu and every Winger. Thank you for keeping the promise you made after the outcome of Indyref 1….that, so long as we are here, you will be here. You have all absolutely risen to the challenges of 2016…and continued to inform and inspire us.

    In the early hours of 2017 we are ALL still here, the YES movement may have been resting, but no longer dormant. We are still moving forward..advancing, not retreating! Gathering our thoughts, consolidating our movement, planning ahead and imagining and planning the society we have always had the potential to be. Wings is, has been and always will be essential to us activists.

  133. Macart says:

    Happy new year all. Slainte wherever you may be.

    2017 a year for ‘peak hope’. 🙂

  134. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Beor –


    Happy New Year to you friend.

  135. frogesque says:

    @hector 2.18

    Aye we are here, not just here but here an’ there an’ a’where and we will aye be here ’till we be done or it is is done. Bit, whatevever’s done we’ll aye be be here ’till we tak our rightful place wi’ a’ ra Nations.

    The Union is broken, now we must end it!

    And aye, I’m in ma’ cups but ma’ heart sa’ wants o’ freedom it hurts. End this pain, break ma’ chain an’ let me wak tall!

  136. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Frogesque –

    Hear ye brother, hear ye loud and clear.

    We all have to do what we can, in whichever wee toty way, to make it happen.

    We all have different viewpoints, experiences, talents, and how we use them is up to us, but the central aim is crystal-clear – no more WM control of Scotland.

  137. scottieDog says:

    Just brought in 2017 discussing currency options in indy scot…
    Antidote to having to watch 10 mins of jackie bird.
    Dear dear.
    Happy new year all!

  138. Scots Renewables says:

    Happy New Year to all Wingers.

    2017 will see us a lot closer than 2016

  139. Cactus says:

    Building up.. nice..

    Me.. I’m guaranteed.

    Scotland 2017 NOW!

  140. jomo says:

    Crap cartoon……panders to the Bremainers and Clintonian whingers. Scotland… from Westminster and Brussels and on good terms with the new USA administration is the way forward.
    I have been a passionate supporter of Scottish independance but I want nothing to do with the nightmare that is the EU. The English and Welsh people called it correctly. Given the choice, I’ll vote to remain in the UK rather than the EU.
    I’m convinced that the Scottish and Westminster governments blundered badly and displayed a complete lack of discretion and foresight during the American election campaign.
    Trump may lack diplomacy, but he tapped into the prevailing mood of a great many people across the Western World……..sick of political correctness and being told what we cannot think and say, sick of being ignored by the self-appointed and ‘Oh So Smug’ political elite, sick of the multi-cultural lie, sick of the Global Warming hoax and all the ‘Green Taxes’ imposed on us. 2016 was a great year for those of us who aspire to real freedom.

  141. Liz g says:

    Yay new posters ….A guid start to the year

    Welcome and please keep on posting,we want as many points of view as possible.

    Any more of you please just come on in we don’t bite…Snark a wee bit mibbi…But that’s what keep things interesting,and only if you promise to snark right back.

    Paragraph breaks pariona though…Well that’s perfectly reasonable.LOL

  142. jockmcx says:

    Was the labour party a massive con right from the start?
    I think so.

    There to keep u down and going round in circles,with the odd sweety here and there.

    Man… how they must have laughed.

    No more manufactured religeon please people.

  143. Cactus says:

    Welcome Alasdair Donaldson.

    Shout out for @firestarter dude.. Some party that was dude 🙂

    2017 is hours.

  144. Cactus says:

    Aye let’s hear ye Wings lurkers..

    Who do you love..?

  145. Cactus says:

    Alastair, not Alasdair.. that is your name.


    We Love Scotland.

  146. Cactus says:

    @Still Positive & @ Meg Merilees & @Smallaxe..

    How are you doing fine sovereign Scotspeople?

    Auld Lang Syne.

  147. Cactus says:


    Welcome to the year of The Rooster..


  148. Cactus says:


    I am one sovereign Scotsman..

    I am one of many..

    I am one of you.

  149. Cactus says:

    I am one of you..

    I am one with you..

    I am at one, with you.

  150. Cactus says:

    Welcome to 2017.

    A new beginning.

    The force re-awakens.

  151. Smallaxe says:

    Happy New Year Cactus

    Peace, Love and Prosperity to You and Yours

  152. Capella says:

    Happy New Year !
    I see Nicola was out delivering baby boxes yesterday. The BBC asked Monica Lennon, Labour person, for comment. SNP bad, of course.
    I wonder if there will be any sign of humanity from Unionist politicians this year?

  153. Smallaxe says:


    Happy New Year to You and Yours I hope you have a Happy Prosperous and Peaceful 2017.

    As for humanity from unionists, I think that very unlikely, but we can only hope.

    Peace Always

  154. Maria F says:

    Happy New Year to everybody!

    A new year brings new hope. Mine is that this be the historic year when we will see Scotland becoming an independent country.

    Slàinte mhath!

  155. Fred says:

    Have a good Ne’erday folks & put plenty watter in it!

  156. Robert Peffers says:

    Well here we all are in 2017.
    It doesn’t feel any different from 2016 —YET.

    Here is the news where they we are :-

    Baby Box delivered to Mothers-to-be by Nicola Sturgeon.

    In 2001 the then SG feared paying out paying out £20 million to contaminated blood victims – the current SG has agreed compensation to those victims.

    The FM says Scottish wishes to remain in the EU must be respected.

    Here is the news where they are :-

    T May calls for unity in, “Her Country”, after her Tory Government, “Laid Bare”, divisions in, “Her Country”. That’ll be England then- will it?

    Cabinet files from 1989 show Thatcher ordered sentries at Faslane to shoot intruders on a nuclear submarine.

    Should she not have ordered the sentries be shot for dereliction of duty for NOT doing their jobs properly?

  157. Smallaxe says:


    I apologise, it may have come across as if I ignored your post on O/T last night.I had put this song on for you but I think that I forgot to take off the http// part so it did not appear, sorry my friend.

    I hope you and those you Love have a Peacefull Happy and Prosperous New Year in 2017 my Friend

  158. Capella says:

    @ Smallaxe – Happy New Year to you and a Year of Health and Happiness to you and Mrs Smallaxe.
    When Pandora opened her jar and every misery poured out on humanity, only Hope was left. So I do cling on to hope. Keep on looking for green shoots.

  159. Macandroid says:

    Happy New Year to all Wingers, lurkers, Stu, Chris and all who have contributed to this fantastic resource.

    We will win our independence soon.


  160. heedtracker says:

    Start the New Year, with BBC smear,

    Records reveal Scottish Labour minister unease over blood scandal payouts
    8 hours ago
    From the section Scotland

    is not the headline. Why would BBC Scotland’s all new and exciting Donalda regime make it look like its SNP Scots gov fighting compensation payments to 3,000 Scots?

    Monster the government, with a ghastly SLab crew? Just another year in teamGB, lets go.

  161. Smallaxe says:


    Thank You, where there’s Wings there’s Hope

    Peace Always

  162. Marie Clark says:

    Morning everybody. Happy New Year, I hope that the heid is no too sair.

    I’ve just had the first swear of the year when I heard TM waffling on.I’m not sure which country she is on about, it ain’t mine anyway. Yeuch.

  163. starlaw says:

    Happy new year to all my readers.
    Health Wealth and Happiness to all at Wings.
    Cooncil elections coming lets get busy.

  164. heraldnomore says:

    Have a good one folks, I can feel it in my blood, it’s coming…

  165. Fred says:

    Smallaxe, you’re a star, always appreciated the wee Springburn mention, was brought up thinking LNER was the family monogram as it was on everything in the hoose! 🙂

    “Never Heed the Hoodies!”

  166. Smallaxe says:


    Your more than welcome, I had a single end in Hillkirk ST at one time.

    Peace Always

  167. Dr Jim says:

    When the Yoons squeal their loudest you know something’s going right
    Today it’s the Baby Box that’s attracted their manufactured ire, because once again the FM looked around saw a good idea in Finland that works well and said let’s have some of that for Scotland

    And that’s how much the cringing Proud Scotbuts hate their own country that they’d pour badness out about all our kids getting an equal helping hand start in life as well as saving new Mums a few quid into the bargain

    Maybe they’d rather have Thatcher back supported by the Labour party to take the milk out of their mouths
    But I suspect it’s more to do with their twisted bigoted Ruth Davidson sectarian minds that’s at the heart of their ravings

    Prof John Curtice says more Educated Scots voted Yes in 2014 and again remain in 2016
    If that’s true, and I believe it probably is, and it tended towards older voters who were opposite these views that would mean that Labour and Tory education did it’s job quite well and actually prevented more people from learning than the SNP approach to education which has only been a few short years, which by my SNP maths means Independence must be just around the corner

    I thought I got to that conclusion quite craftily, but only us educated folk would have noticed that

    Even us oldies, how did we slip through Robert?

  168. galamcennalath says:

    2017, I’d like this to be a prediction, but maybe I’ll just leave it as a hope …. this year we will see a clear majority of Scots finally coming to the conclusion that Indy is the best way forward.

  169. gus1940 says:


    Great volumes of Anti-Russian hot air have been and continue to be generated regarding alleged interference in The US Presidential Election.

    It is alleged that they hacked into the files of Clinton and The Democrat Party – primarily e-mail files including the ones held improperly by Clinton which were the subject of a well-publicised FBI investigation prior to the election.

    Given that the results of an election are decided by which party receives the votes of individual electors who decide to vote and the lack of votes cast by those who choose to abstain am I alone in struggling to understand just what the Russians are supposed to have done to influence the result?

    The nearest thing to any detail is the accusation that they hacked into Clinton/Democrat e-mails. Although I am an avid consumer of broadcast, print and social media I am unaware of the release and publication of the content of a single one of the alleged hacked e-mails. If I am correct in that how could e-mail hacking have influenced the result?

    If anything influenced the result of the election re Clinton’s e-mails it was the release of the news that her use of an alleged ‘illegal’ server while SoS was being investigated by the FBI – this was claimed by the Democrats subsequent to the election.

    So we are left with the question of just what did the Russians do which influenced the destination of tens of millions of votes. Did they hack into the millions of PCs, Tablets and Smartphones and flood them with lies attacking Hillary – if so why are we not being told as I can’t see any other way that they could influence individual voters.

    Vague suggestions that they have hacked into the voters’ rolls and disqualified potential Hillary voters or have interfered with he software in those areas which use voting machines. Given the nature of the Federal system in The USA there must have been countless different systems in use for both maintaining electoral rolls and the various types of machine used for mechanised voting.

    So we are left with he great as yet unanswered question of ‘What exactly did the Russians do if anything to influence the result of the election?’.

    And I don’t suppose that The US doesn’t hack into the systems of other nations – Aye Right.

  170. Macart says:


    I reckon 2017 will be the year of decisions. On the surface it won’t look as if things are moving very speedily, but I reckon there are choices and decisions facing both parliaments which will harden positions and set the foundations for truly massive future change.

    That’s the thing about tectonic shift. Never looks as though much is happening on the surface, but over time when enough pressure builds up between opposing plates?

  171. Capella says:

    @ gus 1940 – Craig Murray has written a few articles debunking the “Russia stole my election” rubbish. Latest post here:

    I watched “Allende” on Netflix yesterday – not happy new year material I admit! President Nixon, Henry Kissinger, the CIA, the NSA, the US military etc poured millions into smearing Salvador Allende, President of Chile, and overthrowing his democratically elected government – on 9/11 1973. So if anyone specialises in interfering with other nations’ elections, it is the USA.
    Another case of “projection”.

  172. bjsalba says:

    On your off-topic comments.

    As understand it, the claim is that the Russians hacked into the Democratic Party System. That is entirely different from the the private e-mail system that Hilary Clinton used (improperly) to conduct Government business at the State Department.

    The E-mails leaked from the Democratic Party System were on the unpleasant activities against Bernie Sanders within the party that got her selected as candidate. They are totally unrelated to US Government business.

    Personally, I would have thought that it would be more likely to be Republicans disguising themselves as Russians doing the hacking. That is just my opinion.

    Oh by the way I spent more thatn two decades working in the USA in IT.

  173. louis.b.argyll says:

    Lochside says:
    31 December, 2016 at 5:48 pm

    One death I am eagerly anticipating is that of the oxymoron known as the ‘United Kingdom’. On a more positive note, I am also anticipating the resusitation of Scotland’s iNDEPENDENT sovereign status in or out of the EU.

    Couldn’t agree more!

    Let’s hope, pray, for a good year ahead, SECURING Scotland’s future.

  174. Capella says:

    @ Smallaxe – Thanks for the links. Grim reading for the start of 2017 but better to find out the circumstances then you can…(Beefheart)…then you can vote Independence and get out of this mess of a Union!

  175. Betty Boop says:

    New posters, old posters and lurkers, I hope we all have a peaceful and positive year.

    Good wishes to one and all and a special thank you to Stu, Chris Cairns, all article contributors and our brilliant commenters.

    Wings would not be the same without each and every one.

    So, here’s to another new year. Living in hope of better things to come.

  176. Smallaxe says:


    Thanks for “Beefheart”, links were no problem I get them e-mailed to me, I know that as you say, they make grim reading but I’d rather know about these things than to sit in ignorance.

    Peace, Love and Independence (ASAP)

  177. Betty Boop says:

    @ Grouse Beater, 31/12/16, 10:24am

    Re the sinister security guard in the cartoon, I had an idea it could be Rupert Murdoch, but, I don’t think he has wavy hair!

    It’s a grim enough picture anyway, isn’t it? 🙁

  178. Glamaig says:

    Happy New Year to all Wingers and lurkers. Lets hope 2017 is the year when a majority finally realise that Scotland can better look after itself, has friends, and what is the point of Westminster?

  179. HandandShrimp says:

    Happy New Year Stu and to all my fellow Wingers

    May 2017 be a good year.

  180. Dorothy Devine says:

    I have just made the mistake of visiting the Herald online – a pilgrimage I won’t make again.

    Those of you who continue to visit it may be able to tell me when the comments below the line took on a Daily Mail readership – utterly disgusting crap from some.

  181. Masslass says:

    Happy New Year to all. looking forward to 2017 with Hope. Thanks to Stuart and all the great posters on Wings. All the best from the USA

  182. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Whilst browsing through a couple of the so called newspapers this morning (know thine enemy and their tricks/lies) – (gurgle an spit, I did manage to find something to help alleiviate the pain of too much alchoholic refreshment and have a good laugh to start the day off: 🙂

    For 2017:

    “Not every day may be good,but there is something good in every day.”

    Soar Alba

  183. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill says: 1 January, 2017 at 12:55 am:

    ” … Kezia’s latest statement reveals that not only is she out of her depth but that she is a Tory.”

    The thing to understand, Dave, is that, “The Westminster Establishment”, and not just their political wing, as a whole, are very much like most of the big families I’ve known, (especially from way back before effective birth control came about).

    They would fight tooth & nail among themselves, but let an outsider pick a quarrel with any one member of the big family and they found they had picked a fight with every last member of the immediate family and also with the entire extended clan of their many related families.

    Westminster is the same. They will fight among themselves like ferrets in a bag, but will stand firmly together against all outsiders. Scottish Labour is not actually part of the Tory Party but is factually part of the Westminster Establishment extended family.

    Remember that not only the Westminster unionist political parties are the Establishment but so are the heads of their employee branches like Police, Armed Forces, Security Services, Civil Service and the Ministries and Government Departments like Education.

    Then there is the allied parts of the Establishment. Like education, church and the Main Stream Media. Not to mention Big Business, (both individually and via their associations like the CBI). Then their is the banking and associated financial sector.

    So really Kezia is not just standing firm with the Tory Party but all the extended Unionist Establishment and their relatives.

    Not at all surprising as Labour joined the Establishment long, long ago. That is what the establishment does – it infiltrates and takes over.

    It is the same system the Roman Empire used throughout their entire empire. The Romans did not run the individual countries personally. They had a governor but Romanised the local former leaders and had them run the country for Rome.

    Roman Britain ran as a self contained tax and excise unit. The Romans Empire, though, levied taxes including, import and export duty, throughout their Empire.

    So while having the natives mine and manufacture goods to export to other Roman Empire countries the Empire was financed by the duties paid at both the producing country and the importing country. Exactly how such as the European Common Market works today.

    Which, of course, is why the remaining partner part of the United Kingdom will fail after they leave the European Union. They have no control over the countries they hope to trade with and thus cannot benefit from the customs and excise duties gained by those other countries.

    They see themselves as Britain, (hence the idiotic term BREXIT), but are not actual all of the Britain they claim to be. They will, hopefully, be only the kingdom of England’s three countries.

  184. Betty Boop says:

    @ Robert Peffers, 1:17pm

    Greetings Robert and thank you. You have the most wonderful way of expressing what many of us already realise, informing those who don’t plus educating all of us about issues where we our information may be lacking. Long may this continue!

    My good wishes to you for this new year.

  185. Jim Bo says:

    A very Happy New to you Stu and all wingers out there.

  186. Wee Maggie says:

    A very happy New Year to Stu, wingers and fellow lurkers. All the best for 2017.

  187. Cal says:

    A Happy New Year to everyone!

  188. mike cassidy says:

    And for your first good read of 2017 –

  189. Andy smith says:

    A very happy new year to all wingers!

  190. K1 says:

    Ah’ve been watching this gaining interest and more publicity for a wee while now. The Basic Income is going to be piloted in Glasgow and Fife, hopefully this year…we in Scotland have been listed as on of the ‘places to watch’ by the Basic Income Earth Network. We really do ‘get it’ in Scotland, I would really like the SNP to have this in their manifesto too:

    ‘Scotland was recently added to the list of “places to watch” for basic income activity by the Basic Income Earth Network, founded by the radical economist Guy Standing, whose hugely influential book The Precariat identified an emerging social class suffering the worst of job insecurity and most likely to be attracted to rightwing populism.

    “The thing about Scotland is that they really understand the precariat,” says Standing, who recently visited the country to meet civil servants, local authorities and campaigners to discuss a basic income. “The sense of insecurity, the stagnating living standards, all of those things are clear in Scotland and the fact that so many within the SNP are supportive means there’s a real opportunity to do a pilot in Scotland.”

    The momentum is there, he says, and once it is framed around a desire for greater social justice “then you get away from the stale debate about whether if you give people the basic income then they will be lazy”.

    “People relate to the idea that everyone should have a social dividend. Everywhere I go, it’s the communities that feel left behind by globalisation that are most interested [in the idea of a basic income]. We have seen a sea-change in attitudes.

    “This sense of alarm about populist rightwing politics has brought more people to thinking we need to do something to provide better security for people. We are risking our economic and political stability if we don’t do something about it.”

  191. K1 says:

    Guy Standing gave the Angus Millar Lecture back in May, In Edinburgh for anyone who wants to understand more about the Basic Income, especially in relation to Scotland and more about his philosophical outlook regarding the Basic Income. This is an hour and half long, but he’s a kindred spirit and this needs shared widely across Scotland, please forward onwards if ye can, ta.

    ‘As previously reported on Basic Income News, economist and BIEN co-founder Guy Standing (SOAS University of London) delivered the prestigious Angus Millar Lecture for RSA Scotland last May’:

    Professor Guy Standing – Basic Income – in relation to Scotland:

  192. louis.b.argyll says: hour and a half?
    .. That’s 90 minutes!

  193. K1 says:

    Yeah, 45 minutes’ talk, and then rest Q&A Louis.

  194. bjsalba says:

    @Graf Midgehunter

    Your comment closing of SOAR ALBA is fine if you want to be in line with WoS ethos – especially the Wings bit.

    However, if you are trying to put in a wee bitty Gaelic, its should be SAOR ALBA .

    Check it out on (with apologies for being a PITA pedant).

  195. Can I congratulate Andrew Whitaker for an excellent summary of Scottish politics in today’s Sunday Herald. I almost thought I had written it myself.

    May I share the dismay of the rest of the media at the absolute lack of the mayhem that they were all looking forward to around and after the Old Firm match. The Sunday Scum disgraces itself again by making its front page the fact that ONE GUY shouted during the minutes silence.
    At the last count three – yes three – people had been arrested at the match, two for setting off flares. How very disappointing for our “national” press.

    Murdo’s not a happy hunny either which can’t be bad.

    The widely held belief that Ruth Davidson is responsible for a revival in Tory fortunes is, of course, false. The mid revival in Tory fortunes is down to two factors – (1)continuous,generous and unquestioning support in the media for Ruth who is never asked even an easy question far less the many many hard ones she could be asked and (2)the collapse of the Labour vote down past the the Tories, assisted by the establishment media that has thrown Kezia overboard. I had thought that Kezia might wake up to this but the proof that anybody needs that she is out of her depth is provided by the fact that she is oblivious to this.

    The notion that any significant proportion of what is left of the Labour vote is likely to vote for the Tories in May is bonkers.
    The battle lines are drawn. It is Scotland against the Tories.
    In the next few months the undecided will be making up their minds. I know what that will mean.

    Last thought – how come Willie Rennie is always on BBC when Patrick Harvie with more votes is rarely there?

  196. K1 says:

    *Hands shoots up*

    Sur, sur, is the answer: ‘because he’s a self promoting wee prick who’s only aim is to further his make believe fantasy that he’s relevant?


  197. louis.b.argyll says:

    K1..Two halves..

    .we can sell that.

    I’ll have to watch it first, but good stuff/subject.

    A lot of corporate types on year reviews etc also buy into the equality buys growth, real capitalists, not elitists.

  198. ScottieDog says:

    My main worry about the UBI is that if the UBI is of a reasonable level (above the poverty line) then it will boost demand without increasing the productIve capacity of the economy which can result in inflation.
    To me the job guarantee seems to make more sense…

  199. Liz g says:

    K1 @ 3.18
    Thanks for that link to the Basic Income Stuff.
    Will certainly take a look later (family stuff) when I get time.

    I have always been an advocate of some sort of social responsibility collectively,ever since Thatcher’s “no such thing as society mantra”, I was very young at the time and probably could not have articulated how and why what she was saying was wrong but I knew that it was.

    I have come to realise,after decades of the “get on your bike” shit being punted at the poor why it is and always has been a giant con.

    If the power’s that be really really want all of us to take responsibility for our own lives with no state support.

    ……Then they must actually stay out of it……

    But they don’t…. Imagine, getting a bit of land, building on it ..Christ you can’t even catch a bloody fish for the table,keep some chickens or goats and sell on the produce from them.
    The State will interfere and regulate at every stage.
    I know it’s extreme but as a paper exercise try thinking about how to organise living off grid.
    You can’t because they (the state) wouldn’t let you!!!

    All the resources are theirs, or least claimed by them, therefore there is indeed a social contract.
    A sort of governing by consent,if you like,if the State claims the right to decide where , how and under which conditions you can eat…
    Then the State by default has a responsibility to ensure that you do indeed eat,it has to organise enough revenue to take care of this from the resources that they manage.

    One answer does seem to be a Citizen’s income,this would free people up to take part in Society where and when they can,there are a whole subsection of people who could and would contribute in numerous ways if the rules and regulations of the Benift/Rebate system was scrapped,and everyone is at the very least able to survive without having to.. not.. make any changes to their lives, for fear of having to report it and navigate the system all over again.

    Hopefully I made some sort of sense here and look forward to debating the pros and cons of a Citizen’s income later.

  200. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill
    Yes I was pleasantly surprised to see actual new articles today, and he did do a great job.

  201. Jock McDonnell says:

    Was that Murdo’s pal running the line at ibrox ?

  202. Robert Peffers says:

    @Betty Boop says: 1 January, 2017 at 1:32 pm:

    “Greetings Robert and thank you. You have the most wonderful way of expressing what many of us already realise, informing those who don’t plus educating all of us about issues where we our information may be lacking. Long may this continue!”

    Often we know things but have not really formalised them in our mind. It’s a bit like a file cabinet. If you do not put the file in proper order, numerical, alphabetical or in chronological order the information is there in the mind but can be hard to find when you need it.

    As to why I can put things in a way others can understand. The week I finished my 5 year apprenticeship the management gave me an apprentice to train. They must have thought I did a good job for I was never without a lad, or lass to train until I retired.

    I also was prepared to take on all the Awkward Squad apprentices and, believe me, some of them were, to say the least, rather difficult to get through to.

    “My good wishes to you for this new year.”

    Thank you and may this new year bring you, and yours, only happiness.

  203. K1 says:

    Scottiedog if you watch the talk and the Q&A some of what you speak of is addressed. ‘…then it will boost demand without increasing the productIve capacity of the economy which can result in inflation.’ This specifically is addressed and all the evidence points to it not being the case at all.

    Liz g, again many of the points you raise are all addressed by Prof Standing, it’s a thoroughly empathetic approach that is advocated and one that should really be embraced by anyone who is serious about social justice and the alleviation of poverty. I understand where you are coming from and you will resonate with much of the philosophical aspects involved in bringing about a Basic Income for all.

    Hi Louis, sorry I should have been more clear in ma description of the breakdown of the talk. ‘a lot of corporate types on year reviews etc also buy into the equality buys growth, real capitalists, not elitists.’ Yes this is touched on, there is actually a very much increasing interest from across a broad societal spectrum, though both Standing and Painter, the chair of the talk itself allude to this but cannot as yet, mention particular names. Silicon Valley are mentioned however and there are a few biggies from that quarter throwing very substantial sums at this…they fear ‘the pitchforks’, apparently.

  204. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Happy New Year to you all, Stu, posters and lurkers alike.

    Maybe during this year our desired end goal won’t be realised, but we’ll surely get further along the road. Starting with the Brexit realities finally beginning to grip after Art.50 is (presumably) triggered in March, and of course the local elections in May.

    It’s a rocky road, but we’re getting there. Provided we “keep our eye on the ball” and don’t let ourselves get diverted by unproductive irrelevancies, the temptations of which (alas) are legion.

  205. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    K1 @ 14:57,

    Many thanks for that handy link on Basic Income. I’ll catch up on that when I get some time. It certainly seems to be an idea whose time is coming (if possibly even overdue).

  206. Capella says:

    @ K1 – thanks for link. I will watch it with interest.
    Still working my way through Prof Richard Wolff’s lectures on Socialism. His solution is to have worker co-operatives. The problem is that the profits all go to a small number of people at the top who decide what to do with them. e.g. keep them for themselves.

    Wages have stayed flat for over 30 years while shareholder profits, and CEO bonuses, have soared.

    Stats – 62 people own as much wealth as half the planet’s population (3.5 billion). Oxfam’s figures. Two years ago it was 80 people.

  207. K1 says:

    Capella, Standing specifically talks about our current paradigm regarding wage stagnation, and QE for the rich…I think you too will resonate with much of what he expresses and advocates…it’s a very good talk, can’t believe ah hadn’t found it before now!

  208. K1 says:

    ‘(if possibly even overdue)’ Aye tae that Robert.

  209. MJT says:

    Toasted the bells at midnight and spilled ma first pint at 20 seconds past. A good omen, start as you mean to go on.
    New Year, meh. Segue.

    In 2012 the voter turn out for the Cooncil Elections in Glasgow was 32.4%. In the more affluent areas the turn out is higher. So in places like Govan where I live the turn out it’s mighty mighty low. Was much the same during the Scottish Elections. I said stuff about it, some folks listened, most didnae. Par 71.

    I reckon, as i always do, that the mare clued up folks are the more accurate info folks have the greater chance of feeling like a stakeholder in the process…of taking the time to vote…to have mare of a clue aboot what yer votin for. Most folks dinnae answer their door when you chap it, in my wider vicinity. What to do? Keep chappin? The occasional hustings? Same old same old.

    But I know a lot of folks just talk about who voted and who votes. ‘Cus it’s easier’, as one possible SNP Councillor said to me. I think we’ve got some good candidates at SNP Coral Glesga. I hope enough of the folks we need to be onside when it comes to the Indy Ref2 can be included enough to vote in the cooncil elections. Could be a guid thing.

    When i go to a record shop if I have the time I flick through every record rack, cos i want to know what’s in the shop. Takes time. But flicking through records is a game of complete information. Par 72

    Hope everyone has a great time and creates space in their own floating grey abundance in order to create space in the floating grey abundance of others. Par 69.

  210. Graeme Doig says:

    Happy new year to everyone on Wings.

    2017, another year for Scotland to continue getting off it’s knee’s.

  211. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Liz g, K1, et al –

    Good stuff. Ah love it when we have these ‘bigger picture’ conversations. Feels like ye’s are right here around the table having a swally…

    Anyway, my tuppence is about the whole concept of ‘revolution’. It frightens ordinary citizens, but it shouldn’t. The ones who should and do fear it are the landed, the monied, the inheritors of the feudal system who can see centuries of entitlement slipping away. From their POV the French revolution wasn’t that long ago and it freaks them out that it could happen here.

    Wish I could remember where I read this, but some historian bloke was on about the situation in France pre-revolution, and his main point was that, in relative terms, at the time, it wasn’t really that bad. The people were, in general terms, healthy and well-informed enough to turn their anger into positive action. Didn’t happen overnight. If they’d been starving and wretched no popular uprising would’ve been possible.

    For me, that’s what ‘austerity’ is all about. The constant humiliation of ordinary folk has a debilitating effect long-term, and the more of it we take the more they’ll dish out. It’s not about money – it’s about control. Plenty of us right here were warning about this well before indyref1, before the first swathe of cutbacks arrived in Spring 2012. They made no secret of what they were going to do but the resistance just wasn’t there. Big demos? Aye. But the fuckers in Whitehall will happily watch hundreds of thousands marching right outside their doors and not give a toss.

    We knew this was coming. Anyone who doubts the maliciousness of the State (okay, it happens to be Tory governed right now, but hey-ho…) should read Danny Dorling’s ‘Inequality and the 1%’, or check out his website. The State is under threat and it must weaken and kill resistance because it knows it wouldn’t survive a square-go. That means weakening and killing us. There should be no mistake about this – they are out to kill us and they have the explicit support of middle-England voters in doing so.

    Indy is our lifeline.

    That’s ma rant done…off to neck some Strongbow.

    Happy New Year All!


  212. old highlander says:

    U D I. It’s the only way and I have seen it on a wall already.

  213. K1 says:

    ScottieDog, I’ve gone back to video and pulled out what he did state when asked about negative taxation (that was the question).

    Started off the answer to that question (regarding inflation) as ‘One handed economics’ then continued:

    ‘Because you forget the supply side. If you put money into a community, you think that inflation is going to go up, but that forgets the elasticity of supply of basic goods and basic services. Because if more money is available in local communities, surprise surprise but people start producing more goods and more services. Another ecological advantage. And what we found in our pilots’ is, strangely that the unit prices, basic goods and services in those communities went down, during the course of the pilot.

    They were making money because they were selling more units but the unit prices were going down. So that to me is another prejudice, which we can answer…and the book does deals with that.’

    His book will no doubt contain more in depth answers with regard taxation and the effects BI could have depending on the ‘types’ of social structures in place within a given community etc. (Just wanted ye tae have the jist of his response in case ye don’t get round to seeing it all)

  214. K1 says:

    ‘The State is under threat and it must weaken and kill resistance because it knows it wouldn’t survive a square-go. That means weakening and killing us’

    Ye know, ah get funny looks when I say stuff like this…so I’m glad someone else is stating it too, overtly. It’s so obvious this is the only way they can maintain control. And this is why we are subject daily to demeaning shit from our so called ‘third estate’ nae truth tae power wanker journalists who do nothing but slag of our democratically elected by the people Scottish government. Who are btw addressing this very issue by virtue of the fact we put them there as a bar tae them continuing to fucking kill us all off!

    *aff tae neck some tea after ma ain wee rant there*

  215. louis.b.argyll says:

    MJT, nice one.

    K1, still haven’t watched it. Stuff, and stuff. Will place above any links in morn.

  216. K1 says:

    Cool Louis. 🙂

  217. ScottishPsyche says:

    O/T regarding baby boxes.

    Putting aside the tedious SNPBad mantra which accompanies any SG initiative, there seems to be a section of yoon society who believe you have to earn your right to life even as a baby.

    How do you argue with people who genuinely think that reducing infant mortality lies within the realm of party politics? That some mothers are more deserving than others? That junkie mothers will sell their cots on ebay for drugs? That cot death is due to the fault of feckless wastrel parents? Anne Diamond would have a lot to say regarding that view.

    They are beyond comprehension.

  218. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @K1 –

    I suppose it can look a bit melodramatic when it’s stated as starkly as I did there, but the victims of ATOS surely wouldn’t disagree with it at all.

    I remember being on a street stall (for the SSP) in Ayr Main St one day, at the Wallace Tower, and this dude came up, quite angry-looking. I instantly had him down as a hard-core junkie (to my shame) because he looked awful, had that skeletal look, really horrible close-up.

    But this lad knew his stuff. He gave us chapter-and-verse on what the whole austerity project was about, he named the major companies and shareholders, explained how it was making profits. It wasn’t until he started going off about how he was going to firebomb the ATOS offices that we had to ‘bid him good day’.

    Found out, shortly thereafter, that the guy was terminally ill and was one of the very first Scottish targets of the whole sadistic ‘get-yersel-back-tae-work’ routine. He was also a prominent socialist writer and thinker who I hadn’t ever heard of but was very well-known to more experienced members.

    I don’t know the dude’s name, or if he’s still alive, but he did his best that day (would’ve been Summer, 2013) to tell us what the bastards had already done to him, his family and community. I’ve never ever seen him since that day, and probably never will, but I think of him often, and wonder how much longer we can just ignore what’s being done to our most vulnerable.

    Yeah, K1, you may get funny looks friend, but you’re stating the truth – if others don’t like it, that’s their problem. They just don’t realise it. Yet.

  219. Meg merrilees says:

    Cactus – a Happy New Year to you and full marks fur keeping the thread goin’, single handed through the very sma’ hours at the start of the year.

    This is the website that speaks as others sleep;
    Sometime, somewhere, a Winger is awake keeping the Flame of Independence burning brightly!

    We canna be caught napping this year – lots to do!

    All the Best, Folks, and mair power to yir elbow Rev. !!!

  220. scottieDog says:

    I will watch the video but worth a read of this in-depth 5 part critique of UBI..

    Not knocking it btw

  221. K1 says:

    Agreed Ian, they’ve been at it for decades. And we should never shut up about it.

    I recall at 24 being on the dole, which wis actually quite normal for that time, just before ma 25th birthday they were altering the dole money in such a way that I (and thousands and thousands like me) would actually be getting less money than we were at 24. I appealed the decision, knowing full well it would get me nowhere, but the thing was I already ‘knew’ it was important tae take a stand and tae make them pay for a tribunal to hear me out wi my argument wi the dhss about this, this was my only aim in appealing.

    The patronisation was sickening at the tribunal. Three of them sat there and me and this poor wee dhss wumin. Very posh they were and were really impressed wi ma letter, so much so they asked if I’d had help tae write it because they simply couldn’t understand why someone as articulate as this was ‘on the dole’. Unbelievable snobbery but they don’t even know they are like that. Anyway, the whole deal wasn’t for me to actually appeal the thing, it wis ‘for the record’.

    They started to deal with the ‘body’ of my ‘complain’t and I duly interrupted and said, I was completely aware that this was ‘government policy’ and of course the government wasn’t going to consider the ins and outs of my particular case and make reparation in terms of my reduced dole, because they would wholesale have to reverse the entire policy if concessions were to be made on an individual by individual basis.

    I then declared that I only insisted on taking it to tribunal level to make a political point and that it be marked on the record that the government were impoverishing people, how could the ‘age’ of someone be considered ‘criteria’ utilised to define what they could afford to live on? From the age of 24 tae 25 my living costs weren’t going to go down, my rent wasn’t going to be less from one day tae the next?

    Oooft….if wis worth it for the look of sheer disbelief on their faces, ah didn’t let them answer me, because (smartarse 24 year old) I didn’t want tae hear any more patronising pish from them. Stood up, thanked the wee wumin for turning up and left.

    It was only a ‘little’ thing, almost pointless…but ye know it made me feel ‘not powerless’, didn’t make me feel ‘powerful, cause that’s not the point, the point is they are wrong and you tell them that every day of your life, you appeal everything they do, you challenge it day in and day out, ye fight the fuckers as much as ye can in yer own small way. That’s ma dad speaking right there…that’s truth tae power.

  222. Smallaxe says:

    Ian Brotherhood & K1 and liz:

    As Capella said “62 people own as much wealth as half the planet’s population”

    I may express this wrongly but I agree with all.

    Imagine this planet as a Lifeboat and there is enough food and water for all if 62 people were to be holding the resources of half of the other passengers and a good portion of what belongs to most of the rest, then 62 people would be “Sleeping with the Fishes”.

    I do, as most of you know always advocate for peace, I still do but I have been and will always be on the side of the oppressed, Scotland is and has been oppressed during the time of this accursed union with a partner who has colonised a large part of this globe by the use of intimidation, corruption and violence.

    These few “elite people” and their families have had centuries of practice at their trade, they will stop at nothing to retain what they have amassed and still wish to add to, witness the carnage in the Middle East.

    I have always advocated peace and there are non-violent ways of self-defence, it’s time that the “Queen Bees” realise that the worker bees can sting. I refuse to sit back knowing that our families will always be disadvantaged so that some can be advantaged.

    I will Fight for Peace at the ballot box as we all on here shall…I hope that is all it will take to achieve our goal

    Peace Always

  223. K1 says:

    Thanks ScottieDog, had a quick look through…I think a lot of this depends on your philosophical outlook, one reason I like listening to that video with Guy Standing was his emphasis on ’empathy’. He speaks form his heart and talks real evidence based application of BI with their pilot studies, A societal conceptual shift is in the offing, and I think if we can get it right here in Scotland for us regarding BI, we can ‘shape’ it accordingly.

    Sometimes blogs like the one you posted aren’t, for me, viscerally impactful, don’t know any other way to put it…it’s too dry and a bit ‘intellectual’ for ma taste.

    But I can appreciate were you are coming from with differing views on the subject matter being aired from different sources. It’s all good.

  224. Still Positive. says:

    Agree Smallaxe @ 10.03

    We are of the same generation and share the same values.

    We need to be professing our values to the wider population in 2017.

  225. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @K1 (9.45) –

    Cheers for taking the time to write that – it’s important testimony, the kind of thing writers like Kelman have been banging on about for decades. This is our culture, our ‘actual’ life you’re describing right there.

    I wrote a lengthy response to your comment earlier, but it went AWOL. Trying to remember snatches of it now, I’m quite glad it disappeared because it was self-pitying and doom-laden. Not good Ne-erday reading material.

    I’m heartened by the general tone of this discussion – esp with contributions from the bold Smallaxe and others who’ve clearly been around a lot longer than me (or have been active for longer at any rate) and still manage to sound upbeat regardless.

    We have created a very precious community, and this place has a lot to do with it. We can drop in and out as and when circumstances dictate, but it’s a powerful reassurance to know that so many experienced folk are connected and active. ‘They’ can’t break that. Ever.

    More power to each and every one of Us.



  226. Smallaxe says:

    Ian Brotherhood:

    To use the words of a song “Teach your children well”.The world is changing rapidly, we must make more people aware that there is a better way, we must change the whole rotten system.We dont have our Independence yet but I am positive that when we achieve it, that Scotland and Her people will use it for the good of all.

    Peace Always Brother Ian

  227. Still Positive. says:

    Winnie Ewing won the Hamilton bye-election on 2nd November 1967 and the following day I read, ironically in my dad’s Daily Record, that the SNP believed that Scotland was a country and should be independent.

    Haven’t changed my mind since then.

    I lived in East Kilbride then and my wee sister was at Hamilton Academy.

    I could have gone through my life without a thought of independence until the SNP won a majority in Holyrood in 2011.

    Now I have the bit between my teeth and I am determined to see independence in my lifetime.

    I met Jim Sillars in 2015 and he agreed with me although he seems to be trying to sabotage indy recently.

  228. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Smallaxe –

    Honoured that ye referred to me as ‘brother’.

    I don’t know much about you mister, but I’ve heard bits and bobs. It seems that you prefer to keep your light under a very thick bushel.

    Well, if even a fraction of what I’ve heard is true then I hope you have written your memoirs. If you haven’t, I would respectfully suggest that you set about it. We need as much ‘truth’ as we can get our hands on now that ‘post-truth’ and ‘fake news’ seems to be the way it’s going.

    No doubt it’ll all ‘come out in the wash’ eventually, but as you say, we’re doing this for the benefit of oor ain weans – they need to know as much as we can give them *right now* to have a fighting chance against the bastards who would happily turn them into serfs without so much as a second thought. We’re fortunate that we have the chance to make this fight democratic and peaceful. If we don’t win, our weans may not have the same option.

    More power to you and yours for 2017.

  229. bombardier says:

    Just a quick comment.

    Been a regular reader since pre-indy1 but been ‘lurking’.

    Could the term ‘lurker’ please be replaced with something less sinister, such as ‘follower’.

    Also, as one of the over 75-year olds who are staunch supporters of independence I find it insulting that we are frequently castigated as being (heaven forbid) Tory sympathisers.

    In closing, may I offer a toast for 2017 – ‘Here’s to the Year of the Haggis’.

    Keep up the excellent work Stu and everyone else who contributes to this site – of all persuasions.

  230. Still Positive. says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 12.01.

    Totally agree.

  231. Smallaxe says:

    Still Positive:

    Flower Power was good fun while it lasted, but I found out in 1968 that “dropping out” was not the way forward. I met the “protectors of the people” outside of the American Embassy in London with hate in their eyes and batons in their hands, hate for us, who were peacefully demonstrating against the Vietnam war where Americans were killing on average 25,000 civilians a year.

    Still, it goes on, in countries that have something that the “West” covets. I do things differently now.The Dream is still Alive.

    Peace Always

  232. ben madigan says:

    I was pleased to hear people discussing basic income.I do think it’s an idea whose time has come.
    Here are some thoughts, a short video and a talk about it that I posted for MayDay last.
    I was delighted to hear Scotland may be piloting two schemes and wish them every success.

  233. Smallaxe says:

    Ian Brotherhood says:

    “We’re fortunate that we have the chance to make this fight democratic and peaceful. If we don’t win, our weans may not have the same option.”

    Having been in Belfast several times in the early 70s Ian, your words could not be more apt.This is my greatest fear, that our children could witness in Scotland that which I saw in Belfast, does not bear thinking about it would take many generations to wipe that shame from us.

    I dont have to say to Wingers but I will, the buck stops with us we can not fail our young people, so if you cant do, give.A couple of pounds to the right people could make all the difference. I leave it to your good selves to decide who the right people are, that is not my decision to make for anyone but myself.

    Peace Always Brother

  234. Liz g says:

    K1, Ian Brotherhood, Smallaxe et all.

    Just back in and doing a quick catch up, still haven’t had a chance to look at the links yet.
    But just wanted to say I think we are on the right track here.

    They know war.
    They know violence….And they are very good at it.

    But to take them at their word and do the Democratic thing or the disobedience thing,they can’t deal with that…And they know it.

    All that technology the stuff that let’s us communicate was originally developed as per usual for the military.
    Make it cheeper,make it fashionable and do what they always do sell it to the masses for profit.
    To want it we need to know how to use it,and IMHO that’s the bit that they didn’t think through.

    We not only can use the technology,we use it to learn and to communicate with each other.
    This leads us to understand how the world works and how it could be made better

    They can only really control what they can turn their guns on.
    Everything else is ours to shape.

    I am very much of the mind that if you don’t actually make it then you can ever own it EG The Land , Water ect and you most certainly should not be able to inherit it.

    The irony is that by educating us to get more profits,and by feeding us the concept of democracy as being they only true human condition, with a view to control of the masses.
    They have handed us the method to end the rule of the monyed classes,and start getting everyone’s resources shared out a bit more fairly.

    While “Democracy” or at least how they portray what it is doesn’t really exist yet,they have done such a good job of convincing us we need it…. That’s what just might make it so.

    Can it happen first here in Scotland??
    Well!!!! We do have a bit of a track record for leading the way ….So yes I do believe it can indeed.

  235. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Liz g –

    Yep X a billion.


    We’re soooooooo close to finding out, eh?

    A braw NY to you.

  236. Liz g says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 1.29
    Aye.. so close,my friend,closer I think than humanity has ever been before.
    There are rumblings all over the globe,but we here in Scotland have I think, the best way forward.
    So I guess we all know what to do next!

    Wishing you and your’s a happy and healthy 2017.

  237. Thepnr says:

    This weeks SNPBAD looks to be assaults on teachers by pupils or parents. You’ll see it all over tomorrows headlines.

    As usual it is pish, this year it was a FOI request from the Lib Dems, last year it was an FOI from the Tories, same pish being recycled year on year.

    When I’m up to it will look a bit more closely.

  238. Smallaxe says:

    Hi liz:

    We can do it liz, I’m 100% sure we can. Once “Brexit” really hits home all those wee unionist grannies will realise just who wants to steal their pensions etc. and a lot of flutes will be getting rammed up some sons and grandsons arses, I have a teeny weeny bit of sympathy for the one that bangs that big drum (he lied)


    Peace Always Dear Friend

  239. Liz g says:

    Smallaxe @ 1.55
    My Smallaxe that’s quite a picture you painted to be

    Health and Happiness to you and your loved ones my dear friend.
    Tell Mrs Smallaxe I am asking for her. X

  240. yesindyref2 says:

    Just in case the media decide for some odd reason, like provoking vile cybernats or creating division, to misrepresent what Orkney Council are doing as some attempt to get Independence and GIRU ScotGov, as the Unionist media is wont to do to try and split us all up and get us at each others’ throats, here’s the actual resolution

    “I, Councillor Graham Sinclair wish to move a Notice of Motion that the Chief Executive should bring a report to the February 2017 meeting of the Policy and Resources Committee considering whether the people of Orkney could exercise self-
    determination if faced with further national or international constitutional changes, or indeed to decide if more autonomy might be beneficial for the wellbeing of Orkney, and exploring what engagement would be required to consider such opportunities for greater autonomy or self-determination with both the UK and Scottish Government.

    It’s already caught out one sensible pro-indy poster who read the article in the Herald which was, errr, a little naughty with its headline: “Orkney examines post-Brexit independence possibility”, compared to the reality, which is an extension of what the 3 island councils have been doing since 2013 (and good luck to them).

    Self-determination is not the same as Independence.

    Beware this year, exercise extreme caution being caught out by the media, who are onto the tactics of Discredit and Divide. Check it out, and don’t respond to headlines.

    Orkney voted in the EU Ref the same as the rest of Scotland – Remain by 63%. That’s the real story. Like the ScotGov they’re sesnibly exploring the options, that’s all.

  241. Clootie says:

    @Liz G 1:13

    It is not just Westminster which continues to oppose Scottish Independence. I agree with you that Scotland could set the standard as regard real democracy (People Power).
    However this example would put pressure on other nations who would prefer to maintain the illusion of democracy with power held by a small elite group and their loyal followers. I cannot think of better examples of false democracy than America and the U.K.

    Westminster will always be able to call on leading World political figures to support them e.g. Obahma during the Referendum “hoping the UK would stay together”.

    A nation controlling and owning its banks, land, natural assets etc is a very scary picture for the elite…the desire and drive for true democracy could spread.

  242. yesindyref2 says:

    For a little more on that Orkney article it says: “the group, Our Islands Our Future, lodged a petition “.

    No they didn’t, that was a petition by a private individual, the group “Our Islands Our Future” was the three island councils doing exactly what I, as a pro-indy supporter, would have wanted them to do if I was a resident there, during Indy ref 1 – take full advantage of the Scot Gov and the UK Gov to try to get valuable concessions on such as Crown Estate, and even fishing, ferries, communications, broadband, G3/G4, and all the rest of it.

    I followed this since 2012 via the Grun, and there was a very deliberate attempt to divide us over the islands because of the Shetland oil. Perhaps it succeeded, because Orkney apparently voted 67% NO compared with the average 55% NO, and having spent time on the Western Isles, I was surprised they voted NO.

    Plesase don’t let us be provoked this time in Indy Ref 2 into making incautious divisive comments – or tweets.

    This Ref we win. All of us, no division.

  243. Dek says:

    Inspirational reading this morning. Thanks all. We are on our way .

  244. Dr Jim says:

    Eh, there’s no such thing as Shetland oil, it’s UK oil
    Shetland, like everywhere else exists to serve the UK and as long as there’s money to be had for the UK treasury it’ll stay that way

    If some of the Islanders would like some form of autonomy I would suggest to them they’re looking at the wrong government to get it
    Some of them might not like the idea of an Independent Scotland but they’ve more chance of negotiating a different agreement with the Scottish government than the westminster treasury who would take everything they had and then leave them a barren wasteland when it’s gone and all the people who moved there to improve their quality of life would just move away after voting NO again

    Those folks wouldn’t be the ones seeking autonomy would they?
    Islanders need to have a good clear think about what they think they want and maybe take a look at the way London treats the rest of Scotland

    Just because folk voted NO doesn’t make anybody Londons pals or because there’s a Lib Dem MP who’s waiting for his Lordshipness or a rich Lib Dem MSP who’ll be nice and comfy either way

    With Scottish Independence there’s a future in sight
    With the UK Government the end is in sight

  245. Capella says:

    I see the Herald headline is that the majority in Scotland don’t want a referendum in 2017. Their own poll. What this indicates is that, every time there is an “iconic” Scottish event – St Andrews Day, Hogmanay, Burns Night etc, we can expect a poll to be released showing how much we all love the Union.

  246. Andrew Mclean says:

    Yes Capella if you were to believe the Herald we are now a nation of necromancers.

  247. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says: 2 January, 2017 at 5:35 am:

    “Just in case the media decide for some odd reason, like provoking vile cybernats or creating division, to misrepresent what Orkney Council are doing as some attempt to get Independence and GIRU ScotGov … “

    Let’s face it – The Orcadians are not daft.

    Anyone who thinks that the Scottish islands have a hope in hell of taking any other action than remaining an integral part of Scotland has bats in their belfry.

    An independent Scottish Island would immediately become an enclave in Scottish territorial waters under The International Law of the Seas.

    Thus they would have very limited territorial waters and that includes access to fishing and oil & gas extraction.

    There are no oil & gas fields that they would have access to and the existing oil & gas terminals would have to cease work. Not only that but all communications would be compromised and all supplies subject to extra charges and goods brought in by either sea or air but excluding the unpaid use of Scottish ports or airports.

    Far as I remember their sea territorial waters would by the midpoint between them and the mainland but international law says the mainland of Scotland would have to allow a sea access lane but no more.

    The islanders are not daft but may think the rest of us are and feel threatened by an islanders threat to NOT remain part of Scotland.

    The islands population would vanish faster than that of St Kilda and for the very same reasons. The islands could not be sustainable outwith the Scottish mainland. I doubt that, post Scottish independence, the remaining Kingdom of England would be interested in retaining the Scottish Islands as an Enclave in Scottish territorial waters.

  248. Macart says:


    Yep, caught both Herald headlines this morning and they are being awfy naughty, not to mention disingenuous with their readership.

    On Shetland? Its the same rinse and repeat divisive bullshit we saw during the indyref. All the folk in the islands are looking for is greater self determination on their own patch with whichever government they have to deal with. That’s a pretty good aim IMO and worth their time exploring. I know who their likely to get more traction with, as do we all and its not those caring sharing, cuddly types down in W1.

    So folk going off half cocked on the issue need to remember who benefits from this kind of shit stirring by the meeja. The Libdems and their chaintuggers in Westminster would only be too delighted at any anger shown in the wrong direction. Remember who the real enemy is and also remember that a certain self serving, cowardly fibber is still their MP.

    On the poll? Doesn’t matter what it says, or what the Herald says. It seems fairly certain there WILL be an indyref and not because its what we want, but because its democratically and constitutionally NECESSARY and required of the Scottish Government.

    We’ve had two referendums delivering two sets of instructions to our government. Those instructions are completely at democratic and constitutional odds with one another. That would be the instructions given by the electorate y’know. Its the job of government to seek a final resolution to the conflicting instructions one way or another.

    Now, much to their credit, they’ve done as bid by the public every step of the way since 2014 and in the wake of the Brexit vote they have attempted to find a solution which would honour both votes and retain both unions. How and ever, they won’t sacrifice the well being of the Scottish population to satisfy right wing arrogant, ignorant isolationists sitting on their arses in W1. Push comes to shove and Westminster doesn’t accept the federal route proposed and presented by the SGs findings,then that question WILL need to be asked and resolved.

    The choice will have been made by wilful, arrogant and heedless Westminster government, NOT the Scottish Government.

    In short, I reckon we’re pretty much beyond the need for polling on should we or shouldn’t we have a referendum. Its going to be a necessity and a to settle a question and a situation not of our making.

  249. Macart says:

    Bugger! Screen lag gremlin strikes again. 🙁

  250. sassenach says:

    Mr Peffers.

    Much though I would like to believe your assertions about the ‘islands’ ( @9-48am) – it behoves me to await pronouncement on this matter by the famed Carmichael creep, resident Liar of said Parish!!

  251. Meg merrilees says:

    Fascinating to listen to different points of view: –

    My cousins from the North East are staying just now, as is my sister from London( where she works). Visitors all older than me, all of us in our 60’s.

    London sister voted Labour/ Leave; Cousins, Lib Dem/Remain but agin Indy, me SNP X2/Remain and pro Indy. So far there has been no politics discussed between us ALL…

    Have told ALL my visitors ( about another 12 people) to watch the Queensferry crossing video and how amazing the bridge is; actually made some of them watch it. Told them 10,000 workers in 5 years only needed ambulances about 4/5 times. I can’t wait to drive across it, etc.

    However, when discussing the Baby box scheme with sister last night ( which she criticised as being ‘largely unnecessary – there can’t be that many people needing things, I have a turkish colleague ( in England) and we had a baby shower for her at work. When we got to her home, she had a dresser full of clothes etc for the baby, so she didn’t need our stuff), I discovered my cousins have been telling my sister how bad things are in the NE and how it’s all the fault of the SNP government who haven’t a clue! She’d happily pay for prescriptions.

    Sis, who offered to buy me a Daily Telegraph when out shopping, then proceeds to tell me how much propaganda there is in the media – including BBC and thinks we must all be bonkers to want to Remain in the EU as it wants to create an army, control our rights and take control of our lives and country!! Irony, such irony and ignorance.

    Meanwhile my brother-in-law ( 60+/Ruth/ Leave/No to Indy 1 and 2) thinks Ruth is the ‘bees knees’, but he’s impressed with the new bridge and thinks the NHS Scot is brilliant…
    (beginning to soften? voted for Ruth because he objects to being caught out in the Tax band issue – why should he pay more tax than someone in England doing the same job?)

    I’m reminded of the saying… you can please some of the people some of the time but you cannot please all of the people all of the time. Herding cats?

    Despite this, I am hopeful. Why?
    All my 6 nieces and nephews, their partners, my friends children and partners and their friends are PRO-Indy, so their votes will cancel out my generation.
    It’s their future and post-Brexit they know it.

    Keep chipping away at everyone you know – the wall is crumbling.

  252. galamcennalath says:

    This ‘island thing’ will be cast up regularly as an attempt, among many others, to add doubt and complexity into our constitutional debate. The islanders themselves are being used as pawns.

    Across Scotland ~45% want Indy, ~25% want the Union, ~30% are open to persuasion.

    Unionists probably accept ‘the 45’ are lost to them. Their aim is sow enough seeds of doubt to keep those they could lose fearful of change.

    As others have said, Brexit hasn’t happened. As it does show it’s true nature, there will begin to be widespread doubts about a changing Union among those open to persuasion. It will become crystal clear that there is no status quo only two routes to change.

  253. HandandShrimp says:

    Haven’t read the Herald in an age. I did read James’ take on the poll and his comments seem fair to me. 45.5% Yes shows that the Yes vote is rock solid and higher than 2014 and will dismay those that thought it was diminishing.

    Personally I don’t think a poll in 2017 is likely. We need to see where Brexit goes and we need to see the May Government continue to lead us on the road to nowhere. If that does not give us the last few percent we need in 2018 then I am not sure what will.

    Did the poll have other rather more pertinent data like the voting intentions for the May Council elections which are only 4 months off?

  254. Fred says:

    What percentage of Glesga folk think the Herald is shite? judging by the peeps who don’t buy it, it’s a landslide for shite!

  255. Breeks says:

    Clootie says:
    2 January, 2017 at 5:41 am
    @Liz G 1:13….

    I think the point you are making is very inciteful.

    In the Unionist camp, we have the British State, the British right wing elite, the British right wing extremist, the British Media, and back in 2014 we had the EU sitting on its hands while a member state resolved its internal affairs. But beyond that there was indeed the ” network”; the USA calling for unity, the Australian PM sticking his oar in, bankers, businessmen, and academics lining up to put the case for Britain. And we think it’s just the media that’s the problem…

    Here in Scotland, we lined ourselves against them and placed our faith in democracy; a democracy which Westminster “conceded” we were permitted to exercise. By jings, didn’t we run them close?

    It’s that same “democracy” Westminster style which seeks to stymie an outright majority in Holyrood, and doesn’t even deny it, and which also throws a quasi democratic lifeline to parliamentary and council has-beens who’ve been rejected at the ballot box, but get a second chance to fill a seat in Holyrood. Here was me thinking the purpose of democracy was to choose the representation you preferred, but if not more important, to give you the capacity to remove power from those who misuse it.

    I get the message Scotland; we want to do this democratically. Yes, but there’s democracy and there’s British democracy. You know, the British democracy which can bomb people and assassinate folks by drone strike without trial or defence,… and without asking you for consent.

    So we’re marshalling the ranks for another go eh? I’m in. Count on it. And aye, lets tweak our “Auld Alliance” to let in the Germans, Austrians, Belgians, Bulgarians, Croatians, Cypriots, Czechs, Danes, Estonians, Fins, Greeks, Hungarians, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Luxembourg, Maltese, Dutch, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovakian, Slovenian, Spanish, and Swedish. That will certainly make the day more colourful.

    But I have such a niggle in my head that our faith is still in this “democracy”. The UK doesn’t trust democracy. Look at our rigged referendum, hijacked for content by Unionist placemen and covert sympathisers. British State instruments overseeing fair play, but deaf dumb and blind to flagrant violation of Purdah. Not only did we lose our referendum, but not one of these injustices has even had its cage rattled in the aftermath. We’ve not even scratched them or dented their power over us.

    There is a time and a place for democracy, and I fully abide by democratic principles, but where do we stand when our democratic principles lie at odds with our legal principles? Westminster does not wield Scotland’s sovereignty by democratic consent, that’s a misrepresentation, it wields it by illegal misappropriation and misuse. But that isn’t the point. The point is we COULDN’T abdicate our sovereignty or submit to its subjugation by another even if we wanted to. Democracy is inferior to the law which made Scotland a nation in perpetuity.

    Next time I head to the ballot box, I want it to be my side who has the result sewn up. Not by fudge or gerrymandering, or jolly japes with propaganda coups, but by the cold, hard obdurate precedent of Scottish Law.

    Whether you are for the Union, or against it, we should all be going to the ballot in the full square knowledge that the law’s opinion of our permanent sovereignty will not be swayed or changed by an ephemeral democratic opinion. If Scotland wants, and elects, to have a Union with England, then so be it. But let it be a Union faithful to our law, which respects the inalienable nature of our sovereignty. Have Unionism reconcile how this can be done before we concede to do it, but for pity’s sake, don’t sell out our bairns and grandbairns and deny them the sovereign capacity to withdraw.

    Just last week, some talking head warned the UK electorate that ISIS has an objective to attack the UK with chemical weapons. There was nothing by way of any outcry. We are stoic and numb in the face of atrocity. There is no mass panic, but sullen readiness should it ever happen.

    Well can’t we water that down a little for Scotland? Can’t we make it known, and common knowledge amongst Scots, and indeed Europeans, of all persuasions that Scotland’s sovereignty is right now compromised in its current subjugated form, and that, that compromised status must be corrected before any democratic opinion registered in Scotland is properly connected with its empowering sovereign origin?

    Let us go into the next referendum with the odds in our favour this time, not having the misrepresented choice of whether we sovereign,
    but instead, use the vote to scotch ambiguity and affirm we ARE the sovereign voice in our own land, and whatever we may decide thereafter must be compatible with that inalienable constitution.

    If Scotland chooses Independence, then it’s simple. If Scotland chooses Union with England, then so be it, but make it a legal, honourable and consensual Union where Scotland is at liberty to defend its sovereign interests, not subjugate our sovereign power to the opinion of a legislature with a permanently stacked majority putting its interests ahead of our own. That’s just stupid. If a Union cannot respect that very ordinary principle, and a country’s right to refrain from stupidity, then it isn’t much of a Union is it?

  256. JayR says:

    I think we need a big peaceful demo against BBC propaganda outside Pacific Quay this year, just to put down a marker and let them know we haven’t gone away, we know they’re still at it and that come the next referendum they better be sure we won’t be standing for their lies that time.

  257. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Your comment closing of SOAR ALBA is fine if you want to be in line with WoS ethos – especially the Wings bit.

    However, if you are trying to put in a wee bitty Gaelic, its should be SAOR ALBA.”

    Actually nobody should be putting bloody signatures on posts at all.

  258. Graf Midgehunter says:

    “Your comment closing of SOAR ALBA is fine if you want to be in line with WoS ethos – especially the Wings bit.

    However, if you are trying to put in a wee bitty Gaelic, its should be SAOR ALBA.”

    Actually nobody should be putting bloody signatures on posts at all.”

    Just noticed it. One can write it the right way hundreds of times and then when it for once goes in wrong, bang.. the PITA police pounce. (sigh) 🙁

    OK Rev.

  259. Stu Mac says:

    @K1 1 January, 2017 at 9:05 pm

    Posts like that make me wish we had a thumbs up feature here. Everything that needs to be said about the fascist like forces that are being let loose in our country.

  260. K1 says:

    I think you mean Ian’s post at 9.05pm Stu…as that does indeed say everything about the ‘fascist like forces that are being let loose in our country’ 😉

  261. yesindyref2 says:

    @Meg merrilees
    Loved your post, had the tears streaming down the cheeks. I know of some young adults who were totally disgusted when they found their parents (who I know) voted NO, and have been at them ever since. There’s hope yet!

    @Macart / @Robert Peffers
    Yes, the islanders would and in fact are better with the ScotGov which is why it was such a disappointment when they voted NO, 67% apparently in the case of Orkney. They should have been even higher YES than Dundee and Glasgow.

    The 3 island councils group is good and getting success from ScotGov, as is the Islands Council which includes Argyll and Bute and Ayrshire and Arran. Maybe more will start realising which side their bread is buttered, as they’d get naff all out of Westminster – same as the Scilly Isles and Isle of Wight get. Nada.

    The UK don’t do islands “just” off the mainland, except the likes of the Falkland Islands, and they’re effectively covered by the UN Decolonisation committee which used to be and still maybe is, mostly under South American influence.

  262. Stu Mac says:


    Ooops, crossed lines. But your own post re the snobby panel was excellent too. Many excellent posts by various posters on this topic.

  263. twathater says:

    Breeks @ 11.26am

    Great post Breeks and I endorse every word of what you say just now and ALL your previous posts on the sovereignty subject .

    It fair rips ma knittin that we ever ask permission for anything , our elected SG should NOT be asking permission for anything , they should be TELLING the wastemonster creeps this is the way we WILL be doing things , WTF is devolution , merely baubles of wee shiney stones dressed up as laws and rules which we are PERMITTED to be in charge of, as long as oor big brother darn sath allows us.

    As Breeks says the proof of our inalienable sovereignty M U S T be RAMMED home by the SG , and the British nationalists MUST be under no illusion that SCOTLAND and the sovereign Scots will no longer accept devolved powers .

    The sovereignty provenance supercedes anything .

  264. Liz g says:

    Breeks @ 11.26 am
    Your post got me thinking that after this judgement and regardless of the progress of the Indy movement.

    Many Holyrood should hold a vote on .. Should we write a Constution ….Or not.. (I know the wordings wrong Robert Peffers)
    Just because,as far as we know England doesn’t want to write one down,that doesn’t mean Scotland won’t think it is a good idea.
    If we wrote and as Sovereign Scot’s ratified it…Even had Auld Lizzie sign it. (What’s stopping us)
    The Supreme Court and Westminster have to abide by it’s framework…. Don’t They????

    What possible objection could anyone have to a Country writing a Democratic Constution for it’s self?
    Especially if the People themselves were involved?
    Where does it say in law or the Treaty it’s self we can’t?

    To be honest this is what I had thought that the Yes movement should move on to after the 2014 vote.
    Like everyone else I had no notion that things would move on as they have.
    And while it might just have been me hearing what I wanted to hear… I thought that’s what Alex Salmond was hinting at in that church hall speech he made on the … I think..19th.

Comment - new users please read this page first for commenting rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use the live preview box. Include paragraph breaks or I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.

↑ Top