What could have been and what was
Alert readers might be thinking that headline sounds vaguely familiar and they’d be right, because we published a post two months ago with a similar title, highlighting the curiously inverse relationship between media scare stories about alleged abuse in the referendum campaign for which there’s no evidence whatsoever and actual abuse that really happened.
We were put in mind of it this week, after the Daily Record ran a particularly barrel-scraping “vile cybernats” piece about how a Labour activist from England got a little bit of extremely mild stick on Twitter after announcing he was on his way to Scotland to stick his nose in the independence debate, and how he WORRIED that he might meet a hostile reception at the railway station (although of course, and happily, he didn’t).
“Better Together” campaign leaders Blair McDougall and Alistair Darling constantly demand that the Yes campaign, and Alex Salmond in particular, takes responsibility for and action against random online nutters behaving in abusive or threatening ways, even when those people have no discernible connection to Yes Scotland or the SNP.
But they’re less keen on putting their own house in order.
Below is an email we received this week, from someone who gave us their full name but only wanted to be identified as “James” due to their job.
“Imagine the scene – you’ve had a good day canvassing. There was me, a male in his late twenties, with my colleague, an elderly woman, relatively new to canvassing. The sun was splitting the sky. We had some great responses for Yes. We were almost at the end of our list, which was good since my hayfever was catching up with me and all I wanted was to curl up into a ball indoors.
From the corner of my eye, I spotted a name on the canvass sheet I might just recognize and shrug it off – the name is a common one, after all. We chapped the door, and upon its opening spot the gentleman wearing a No Thanks badge. Help!
But we all joked and had a laugh or two. We weren’t going to convince each other, so instead we chat about our campaigns and how we are finding it at the doors. There was no animosity. It was courteous.
My colleague mentions what is happening in the NHS in England, and why she is personally voting Yes. Her daughter is a consultant and has genuine fears with what is happening, and how privatisation will take funds away from our block grant.
That’s OK though, since this particular gentleman wants Barnett to be scrapped altogether, in order to be fairer for all parts of the UK. He also works for Unison and wanted his Union to take a ‘No’ stance. I smiled. He jokingly offered us a cup of tea and a scone. We politely declined and went on our way.
It was a rather odd experience. Awkward – but nice that we all seemed to get along, no matter the side of fence we sat. We were all working for something we truly believed in, after all. Happy, clappy thoughts. I remarked to my colleague how nice he seemed. I spoke too soon.
Those sentiments disappeared a few minutes later. We chapped a couple of doors opposite, and while were talking away to his neighbours our No Thanks voter morphed into the Incredible Hulk and his attitude changed completely.
He came out from his house and started shouting at us from across the road. At first it seemed light-hearted, but as he walked towards us, he exclaimed he was going to follow us. Was he joking? No. He wanted to hear what we were saying, and he joined us at his neighbour’s door.
We were all chatting away for a minute before he started ranting incoherently – we wouldn’t be able to use the pound, our neighbours would be foreign, we’d be thrown out of the EU, Alex Salmond was a disgusting human being for giving young people the vote and brainwashing them with “Braveheart” (although it came out before any 16/17-year-old voter was born), and “cybernats” were a disgrace while No supporters were never aggressive online.
(Maybe he’s never seen the websites and Twitter accounts of Labour councillors like Terry Kelly and James Docherty.)
All this took place over the space of 2-3 minutes. My colleague was trying to answer some questions, but was being drowned out by this madman shouting and bawling over an elderly lady. I remained mostly quiet – usually the best thing to do in such circumstances.
He looked at me and suggested the only reason I was quiet was because I knew he was right. After telling him I had no time to go over all of his inaccuracies, he turned his back and walked away. He’d had a go at my colleague (who at this point was visibly shaken) and after realising he wouldn’t get anything from me, stomped off.
It took some effort to calm my colleague down. She was upset and the whole experience really got to her. His attitude was appalling.
What I forgot to mention he was until recently a Labour councillor for East Kilbride, by the name of Alan Scott, who now actively campaigns for “Better Together”. The more I thought about it over the next few days, the angrier I became. I wanted an acknowledgement that his behaviour was unacceptable.
I tweeted Blair McDougall, asking for an email address so I could complain about the incident we experienced on the doorstep.
There was no reply to either. Two days passed, and I decided to use the contact form on the “Better Together” website. (It has no email address.) Before sending, I took a screenshot:
Is it OK for a “Better Together” activist to stalk Yes canvassers down the street, causing such a scene that the neighbours felt it necessary to go outside their homes to see what was happening? But “Better Together” refuse to even acknowledge my messages, let alone apologise for this incident.
My colleague has since stated she’s been put off canvassing because of the experience. An elderly woman has been intimidated out of peaceful campaigning by a bawling thug, and his bosses doesn’t care.”
We’re sure the Daily Record will be on the phone at any minute asking us for James’ details so it can get in touch and report a case of actual face-to-face harassment of a campaigner, rather than some which happened only in a young man’s vivid imagination after reading a couple of tweets.
We’ll be sure to link you to their article when it appears. And of course, we have no doubt that Blair McDougall will also be in touch for more information so that he can conduct an inquiry. After all, the generals are responsible for the troops, right?
Scottish Labour two faced and you expect us to be surprised?
We never hear about abuse against Yes supporters. I myself was sworn and abused by a middle aged couple from their car.
I was on a mobility scooter in Kirkcudbright – Nuff said.
Ah, good old Scottish labour at it’s finest. Acting like the Glasgow Gangland thugs of yesteryear.
It may be necessary to film (on phone, camera etc) such events as it can not only provide proof of what occurs but could cause such people to moderate their behaviour. There are many examples of this with police officers realising they are on camera and changing tact immediately.
As for the reaction. The vitriol and bile comes directly from the top.
I think this guy should be named and shamed – the BT campaign certainly seem to have no compunction about ‘outing’ individuals from the Yes campaign….
Its the worry about this sort of thing which stops me from canvassing: some people would probably seize on my – admittedly charming – Danish accent and tell me to p*** off and leave the ‘real’ Scots to decide!
The Daily Record is a disgrace to Scotland. It takes every opportunity to lie about Yes supporters. Like Scottish unionist politicians the Daily Record loves doing Westminster’s dirty work. For what reward we wonder.
It’s their modus operandi they can’t win the argument so just resort to shouting and intimidation I have also been at the brunt of it and I think it’s why a lot more folk aren’t more visible with yes stickers etc
As handclapping says, not surprised.
I remember when I used to work for Glasgow District Council and certain areas were deemed ‘2 man zones’ meaning it was ill-advised for one worker to enter on their own for fear of theft from van\car or personal abuse.
Strangely, they were all diehard Labour wards. Quelle Surprise.
Drew,
I can’t even begin to describe how disgraceful that is.The mind boggles at what they were thinking. Please keep up the good work.My respect for ‘Yes’ activists grows by the day…..
@Lene
While completely respecting your desire NOT to receive personal abuse for your accent, I would like to say that your voice may be a positive asset for Yes as it shows that the campaign is not all about rabid Scots hating the English but people from all origins and walks of life wanting what is best for their country. Sure, some No people will use your accent as weapon against you but if it wasn’t your accent it would be something else instead.
Well done “James” for sticking to the fundamental right to express your views. I admire that.
You and your colleague were simply doing what normal human beings do. It used to deemed that it was “good to talk”.
When it comes to Scotland running its own affairs there is a significant element of the anti-independence campaign that simply can’t handle a fair hearing of the Yes vision for Scotland.
The only abuse I have received has been from no voters.one throwing materials back at me and telling me to f#@ off when I answered one of his questions directly.
In fact, aggressive behaviour from no voters is at the stage where when we are out in a group, we joke together afterwards if they met the days ‘angry no.’
All the media in Scotland represents the Brit state and Better Together.
The non political minded are now realising this.
I don’t really have a problem with the Daily Record. It is the Scottish arm of Trinity-Mirror Newspapers, an English group.
OK, because the Record has a long history of being printed and published in Glasgow, it is allowed to be a bit more-Scottish than its rivals, but, it is still, basically, an English-owned newspaper.
And, their Care In the Community programme, providing as it does, gainful employment for the likes of Hugh Keevans, Keith Jackson and Tam Cowan is to be congratulated.
The real sickener for me is The Scotsman. Its parent group, Johnston Press, started as a Scottish group, but moved south after an aggressive period of buying-up English regional newspapers.
I would expect The Scotsman, if not to be openly Yes-leaning, to be unbiased and to give both sides an equal billing. Instead, it is every bit as pro-BT as the London-based papers.
And they give John McTernan, to use Margaret Thatcher’s phrase: “The oxygen of publicity”.
Have been doing a bit of work with the Yes campaign and wear a yes badge most of the time. I haven’t been subject to any of this, but then again, i don’t look, what you might call, vulnerable.
This bully has obviously seen an opportunity to abuse folk lawfully going about their business. Sickening. Don’t think police involvement sounds out of the question.
James Docherty you’re now on the list
British Labour are surprisingly fascist, aren’t they? Let’s not mince our words folks, there’s not a lot of time left.
On a positive note, lashing out verbally in an aggressive manner in response to civil argument is always a sign that the protaganist feels they’re losing. Not that that is ever an excuse. There is no excuse for aggressive behaviour.
So my conclusion would be that he, like SLab top to bottom, believe they are not only going to lose the referendum, but also do badly in elections for the foreseeable future. There would be natural justice is that did happen.
Sorry. Linked the name in the tweets to this incident before re reading and realised it was not same guy involved.
Statement still stands however
Rev is it ok to go O/T but I thought you might be interested.
Your very good friend Alex Johnstone (not)has been saying that the SNP want to cut APD but the Scottish Tories are actively campaiging for its abolition,I have never heard of this but maybe you could find out for us,knowing AJ I don’t have much faith in what he says.
I think that this is a tactic used by some NO supporters to try to put people off canvassing. I have been approached by a very tall gent around 40 years old (I am in my late sixties) when I was manning a YES stall. His first words were shouted “Salmond’s a f*****g liar. Sturgeon’s a f*****g liar.”
I responded politely and asked him what specifically they had said that made him think that. Well! This “provocation” sent him into a rage “You’re a f*****g liar”. Fortunately for me,there was a lady volunteer between myself and him or I think I would have been attacked. He stormed off, shouting over his shoulder.
I can testify that this is not a pleasant experience. It did not put me off raising the topic of independence with members of the public, but it did remind me of just how worried some NO campaigners are, that they immediately resort to insults and threatening behaviour.
Just as well you didn’t take the tea and scone, who knows what might have happened. It is really difficult to face people when they are so aggressive. Independence is not the end of the blooming world but you would think that is actually what it means, the no supporters really are gullible and easily led.
The referendum and Independence means that we will have control over the things that are crucial to a forward looking country, the no lot just cannot grasp it, they won’t turn green or grow two heads or anything, just the chance to live in a more equal country that also cares about future generations, thats all.
Many Yes campaigners are pushing themselves a bit beyond their comfort zone, because they know how important it is for these last few weeks. Even shouty No voters who aren’t abusive can be a real downer, but you just have to pull yourself together and get back out there. “Get back on the horse” as they say to you when you fall off.
It does show how threatened they feel. I had one woman ranting at me that nobody is going to vote Yes, I was the first Yes voter she’d come across, and so on. So why was she the one who was wound up like a cheap watch over it all? (She then said that Yes campaigners were intimidating when they were in a group, which was kind of anomalous unless she was just spreading hearsay.)
Keep the faith, be calm and polite, and don’t let anything short of physical violence upset you.
British Labour are surprisingly fascist, aren’t they?
Yup. The whole Harry Doyle incident has been quite eye-opening (yet another eye-opened, when I thought I could no longer be surprised….)
You’d think someone interested enough to travel to our country and get himself involved in our vote would be interested enough to listen to the debate and to look at the other side. Would like to know what it is he’s arguing against exactly.
I also feel, given the media propaganda about anti-Englishness, it’s vital to debate with people in England who are misinformed and let them understand where we’re coming from and what it’s about.
The response to his post was just that – some banter and some pleas to look a the other side, and some fairly robust (but far from abusive) responses to him telling us Scotland couldn’t survive on it’s own.
It’s clear now he was never in the slightest interested in the debate, but is likely a young careerist and the whole thing was set up as troll bait for a “cybernat” blog post he’d probably written before he even tweeted.
I’ve already long reached the point where I’ll never vote Labour in my life again. But until yesterday, I always wanted them to win in the UK, not because it’s best for Scotland (I don’t believe it is) but for solidarity with places like Liverpool. Not any more. I’ve now seen the face of Labour in Liverpool and the North of England and it’s uglier than the Tories.
This is appalling whataboutery. One example of disgraceful behaviour does not excuse the other.
If Rev Stu phoned the police over Twitter threats, why is the activist not allowed to be scared? The threat of a chase is something bad happening when caught.
Same thing on Stv with John Swinney and Jenny marra. Jenny is clearly losing thebargument so decides to switch tack and go for the sexism card by claiming the majority of unemployed are women and it’s the snp’s fault, absolutely disgraceful.
Keeping in line to the pic at start of article – Look for Thatcher, Farage, Cameron, Sillers, Stu, Harvey, Salmon, Sturgeon, Sheridan ..
Tiny keyboard that should read the argument sorry
link to bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk
This is another display of proud Britishness. Up here the Press and Journal used a whole page to display Nigel as the hero of their bettertogether hour which was very very creepy, even for a very creepy outfit like Aberdeen Journals.
Disturbing to say the least. I have no idea if others have suffered like ‘James’, but generally, I’ve had no real problems when canvassing. Most ‘No’ers’ either just grunt ‘No’, or firmly say ‘No’, at which point, I leave it at that.
Probably last Sunday was the oddest so far. Was out with Kininvie doing a small village in West Lothian when within minutes I got 2 very different reactions. The first was a ‘No’ voter …and she made it perfectly clear to me that she was voting ‘No!’ She literally had a tantrum on her own doorstep as she blamed Alex Salmond for taking away Free Prescriptions and that we all had to pay for them now! To say my jaw hit the floor would be an understatement. When I apologised for disturbing her, the door got slammed in my face (with a further bang inside as another door got slammed!)
The second was even more bizarre. Spoke to a young lady about the referendum, when she asked ‘What referendum?’ Once again, it was one of those surreal moments of ‘…come again.’ she was just a normal, down to earth young lady getting on with her life, but for some bizarre reason, she didn’t know a thing about the up and coming referendum. It led to a whole host of questions running through my head in the sense of ‘how could you NOT know that there is an up and coming referendum?’
When folk say that most people have made up their mind, this young lady proved to me that there is still a small percentage out there who have not quite engaged yet, let alone made their mind up!
We’re back out again tonight in the same village. I have to admit, I’m curious as to what answers I’ll get this time!
W O R
I haven’t clue what you are saying.
Scott:
Last I heard SG were planning to half APD then abolish it altogether. Comes to the same thing as the Tories except in two stages and they can promise what they like as they won’t get into power.
Nearest I’ve had to abuse was a slightly thuggish guy in Byres Rd a couple of weeks ago passing me and snarling f*****g a***hole when a shake of the the head would have sufficed – I was wearing my small Aye badge.
Last night’s newspaper review on News 24 showed English version of Torygraph front page article on English athletes asking for advice on what to do at the Games if Scottish fans boo them! Fortunately Joan Bakewell was one of the reviewers and basically said they should grow up. The Scottish editions replaced it with the norovirus story – surprised them and the UKBC have not now escalated it to ebola virus.
Name and shame, name and shame, it’s not of any use unless you name and shame.
“You and your foreign accent” one BT women shouted at me while I was handing out WFI leaflets; I asked her what was wrong with my foreign accent, to which she replied, you foreigners have no right to come and decide for us how to vote, I tried to tell her that I had lived most of my life in Scotland and had married here and brought up 3 kids here but she walked away in disgust.
The same day another lady told me foreigners like me should not have a vote!
I was manning a Yes stall once and someone just walked to me and came an inch away from my face just to shout NO.
I feel sorry for these people, I do not get angry or upset.
I mentioned this on another thread but seems there was also very intimidating behaviour from someone of the OO type variety in east end of Glasgow at the Yes shop; apparently reported in Sunday’s Sun (police were called).
O/T
Sorry for OT but really, this uptake is now classed as BAD news?
link to bbc.co.uk
I’m afraid I was pretty short with a Yes campaigner on the doorstep last week. There is no point in canvassers talking to me when their time can be more productively spent on an undecided.
So bear in mind if someone closes the door on your face it doesn’t necessarily mean they are a no…
@Susan
What you are saying is possibly what annoys me the most about the BT mob; they and the media are constantly labelling us nationalists, yet although the anti foreigner rhetoric comes from them. Many on these threads are constantly pointing out that BT are mostly nationalists, while Yes are predominantly, in my experience, socialists or at least those who think the format of the UK political system needs radical change. Still, such arguments are drowned out by ‘Rule Brittania’
Craig you could have been polite because how the feck do they know what way your voting
Now Rev :
That’s a bit unfair, as you well know that The Dulally Record and Blair MacDougall are currently engrossed, discussing how best to ‘apologise’ for the falsehoods statements uttered by Better Together over the Junckers Euro Union rubbish, particularly as their smear tactics were refuted by Junckers spokeswoman directly.
Give them time to get an announcement out about that first – then they’ll be right on it ! 🙂
I have not been out canvassing; I get flustered at the slightest questioning and it makes it very difficult to respond; it’s a personality thing, makes no odds what I’m actually talking about.
That said, I do go running wearing a Yes training top and I have a Yes badge on, daily, commuting to and from work. This elicits conversation, almost exclusively from fellow Yes supporters. I have never had a problem with No supporters, but then I’m five ten, not exactly dainty, and due to going bald anyway I’ve helped it on it’s way with clippers; frankly, I look like I might be a nutter. I’m not, but sometimes the best defence is looking like you might have a good attack.
The only occassion I’ve had anything shouted at me was whilst running at an event in Campbeltown; where I was informed by one of the marshals that ‘it’s going to be a no anyway’ in a cheerful enough tone. Breathlessly shouted back ‘And are you confident?’ which was received with a fairly telling silence. I am just waiting, though, for someone to swear at me about being a Yes supporter. I have a one word response pre-prepared.
Eloquent. Said in a tone dripping with unmissable sarcasm.
There is no excuse for intimidation and I would take my ‘might be a nutter’ look and get in the way of anyone, from either side, indulging in it.
his is appalling whataboutery. One example of disgraceful behaviour
Sunday Express Survation Poll 11 March 2014
Q17. Over the past three years, have you at any point received threats or abuse from other people as a result of differing views on the issue of Scottish independence?
Base : All Respondents
Those who have suffered abuse:
26% of Yes voters
9% of No voters
So a Yes voter is nearly 3 x as a likely to suffer abuse than a No voter.
The Express is not exactly a big fan of Yes either.
As Ianmc says I would urge all canvassers to film any abuse (smart phones are made for stuff like this) and report it to the police with the details of the offender. Nothing may come of it but the police are obliged to record it and follow up, so there will be a traceable account of each incident. It is possible that there are repeat offenders, who should be prosecuted. Similarly, I would urge everyone to canvass in twos, never alone as it is too easy to raise false accusations against a lone person.
Finally, Rev “James” has protected the identity of the retired lady who has was so badly treated. If you are in contact with him I would be grateful if you could ask him to pass on my best wishes to her and my thanks for her efforts. I’m sorry she had such a bad experience, the sad thing is that her overriding memory of this referendum will now be of a verbal attack.
[…] « What could have been and what was […]
I was the subject of Bitter Together abuse myself last week in Dundee. My wee Nissan Note has a prominent Yes sticker on the rear tailgate. A green BMW sporting a UKOK sticker drew alongside me on Kingsway and started furiously hooting, as I turned to look at the other car and its inhabitants they all started giving me the finger and other not very nice signs and yes I felt intimidated. The car then sped off turning into one of the industrial estates.
If this is the public face of UKOK then they disgust me.
@Lene Kruhoffer
I hope you wont be put off canvassing by this article.
As an English YES canvasser I have had very little abuse,in fact I can think of only one man(who was English and NO voting)who had a bit of a rant about me being a ("Tractor" - Ed)!
On the whole I really enjoy the job and its so satisfying when a dont know gos to a YES.
Please dont be put off,get in touch with your local YES group and give it a try!
I find my English accent is more of a positive than a negative,and its great to get all nationalities involved with this,after all we do get a vote.
Sneddon – for various reasons, they already knew.
And my tea was on the table.
@Wings over Reality
I’m not sure where you’re from and I don’t know who the tweet about “getting chased” came from, but it’s worth pointing out that in Glasgow “chase him” can simply mean “don’t bother with him” or “ignore him” or say you’re not interested – “Aye he came to my door, but I just chased him”. It doesn’t mean getting literally chased.
It seems the No campaigner was happy for you to come to his door and be pleasant, but when he seen you going to other doors, doors he’d probably been to himself and lied, no doubt, it became a problem for him.
@JLT
Had a similar experience to yours with the young lady last week. I was explaining to a young man that one of the reasons I’m voting Yes is that I feel it’s immoral to vote No – because I would be signing my children up to a massive debt to pay for the renewal of Trident, and that one reason it would be immoral is that as a retired person, it wouldn’t be incumbent on me to pay this debt off as the entire £100billion debt would fall to HIS generation and his children’s generation to pay off. I thought I had made a clear and compelling case, but he floored me completely when he replied with a bewildered expression on his face, “What’s Trident?”.
Under the Conservative proposals, the UK Parliament will decide what constitutes a breach of human rights.
link to bbc.co.uk
It appears the Tories aren’t much different to British Labour.
Terrible story of intimidation of the Yessers and I agree that details should be passed to police.
As for the Harry episode, I watched the discussion unfold, general banter and puzzlement and curiousness from folk, more than anything else. The chap came across as rather uninformed and I suppose the D.R. didn’t mention that he trotted out that we couldn’t afford to go it alone, aka subsidy junkie routine. The worst response I saw was that he better not say that when he comes up here or he will be chased. I would certainly hunt him from my door if he spouted that mince as we are rather more informed these days.
Abuse must be condemned, but for me the DR article is a non story.
If I chase a squirrel away from my bird feeder, it doesn’t mean I’m making any effort to catch him, never mind have anything in mind for when I do.
That’s the sort of “chase” being referred to, obviously.
Another Yesser targeted by a Naw…
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
I take it young Harry got back safely to Knotty Ash as I heard Ken Dodd was missing one of his diddymen 😀
Craig yer tea was on the table!…Yeah I hate that as well. I make the point of never answering the phone while I eat. Also if door knockers haven’t buzzed me specifically I don’t answer door at tea time because otherwise I’d be chatting to Joehovas, mormons, BBC Licence folk, Broadband salespeople and ‘charity’ collectors all sodding night!. An advantage of living in a tower block 😀
seems there was also very intimidating behaviour from someone of the OO type variety in east end of Glasgow at the Yes shop; apparently reported in Sunday’s Sun (police were called).
Yeah, trust us to manage to get a shop right next door to some notorious millionaire gangster uninionist 🙂
He’s been a bit intimidating and put a load of really tacky “Better Together” union Jacks on his empty property next door. Has also stuck up a variety of Salmond is a Nazi print-outs – the image of him as Kim Jong Il etc. They keep being pulled down and he blames us, even though it isn’t us.
Hopefully it’s calmed down now though and there’s been no physical threats so far, just abuse and intimidating behaviour. It’s amazing how angry the real unionist/NAW types are.
Many, many people are still genuinely undecided or not yet convinced by independence, but most of those are interested and want more information and a bit of debate. Those hard NAWs are loud and angry but also thin on the ground.
Think I’ll watch The Chase later on on ITV meanwhile there’s a programme on about Wings Over Reality at the same time – Pointless 😀
hetty says:
“as well you didn’t take the tea and scone, who knows what might have happened”
Norovirus might be a weapon of choice.
Um, NB, I don’t think “notorious millionaire gangster uninionist” is libelous since I got that out the Sun. But then again, you shouldn’t always believe what you read in the Sun so if you think it is Rev, please delete…
@Bunter
Another Glasgow expression – “I’d hunt him” – again means the same as “chase him”. Doesn’t mean anyone would literally be hunted.
If he came to my door I’d probably “hunt” or “chase” him, too, that is to say, I’d tell him I’m not interested or if he really annoyed me or wouldn’t go away, I’d shut the door.
@jeannie
Lived in Glasgow for four years and never, ever heard that. And of course, someone so intent on ignoring him would no doubt immediately tweet their intention to do so at him in obscure patois.
I don’t know why anyone would even to justify such behaviour.
It used to be said that the Tories were lower than vermin; I submit that the Labour Party are lower than Tories. Considering that half of Scotland now seems to be dining out of food banks, Bevan’s explanatory statement seems particularly apposite – they condemned millions of first class people to semi-starvation.
@Wings over Reality
I don’t know where in Glasgow you lived for four years but I can assure you, as someone who was born and brought up here, it’s common “patois” in this neck of the woods.
First chance I get, I’ll sit my friends in the east end down and explain to them that perhaps they should refrain from using “obscure patois” with more erudite speakers, lest they be misunderstood. I think they might chase me, though.
I don’t know why anyone would even to justify such behaviour.
chase him/get chased in Glasgow and the surrounding area does just mean told that you are not interested.
@Wings Over Reality
To be fair you probably ignore folk who tell you “away an chase yirself”
@Jeannie
45 years Glasgow born and bred and I’ve never heard the word Hunt used except in a Gareth connotation.
Another Glasgow expression.
“Bolt ya nugget!”
This is usually directed towards irritating numpties.
WoR would be a classic case for this repost!
I am totally sick of this sort of thing happening, I was shouted at outside my own house by a Tory councilor earlier this year just before the Euro elections I spoke to a friendly community policeman at the count who told me do not hesitate to call them. By shouting in the street and causing your colleague distress or causing anyone fear and alarm for their safety this nutjob committed a breach of the peace even more so if he causes a crowd to gather. If it should happen again ask him to leave or you will call the police if he fails to leave call the police film him on a smartphone if you can and when the police arrive tell them how this guys behavior has distressed you. Given the number of people all telling similar tales we would soon put a stop to this intimidation and there would be a hell of a lot of no campaigners with criminal convictions The local papers almost always report this sort of thing.Its an old labour trick As long as you are at his door you are not converting anyone else but when you are likely to convert someone make you move on by any means. dont let it put you
off keep up the good work!
@desimond
Just Bunter and me, then? See – every day’s a school day 🙂
If I chase a squirrel away from my bird feeder, it doesn’t mean I’m making any effort to catch him, never mind have anything in mind for when I do.
One day the squirrel may work that out, turn and face you down.
What then?
😉
“Labour veteran for indy”
Tim Reid Political correspondent, BBC News tweets:
“Former Labour minister Peter Kilfoyle has backed Scottish independence”
Another Labour stalwart sees the light. It’s happening folks.
Yep canvassing has its moments, I had a women with a distinctly southern accent who I believe has just recently moved into our town, tell me that Scotland didn’t how lucky it was to be subsidised by England.
And that was why we had free prescriptions and care etc, I told her it was our own money that paid for such sevices and we were not subsidised by England and the decision to have such services was made by the Scottish government. But she insisted it was subsidised by England, I put her down as a NO.
We are kicking their erse’s on the ground, so if you meet a nutter just smile and move on, if someone trys to get physical use approprate action and move on. When canvassing always watch each others backs and don’t move to another street without checking everybody in your group is back.
Humour and a smile is one of the most effective tools a person has when canvassing, use it widely and problems are easier to handle, plus canvassing can be a real laugh at times, it certainly can be unusual.
We are Scotland, we are YES.
With reference to the Naw stickering; I find it almost therapuetic casually scraping off any variants I find. It’s not what I would call vandalism, or intimidation, it’s giving them low level publicity that they really don’t deserve.
My personal favourite is whichever bloke is wasting money on Union Bears stickers on the lamp post at the end of my road… because periodically another one goes on, and it either comes back off when I walk past to go to work in the morning, or off when I come home in the evening. Never lasts more than twenty four hours.
You’d think they’d get the hint.
JLT at 10:47
I think your experience with the young lady who was unaware of the referendum was extreme, but not unique. I think there is still a significant body of people who have not really engaged in this process. If asked, they will say “yes” or “no” or “don’t know” but they have not really listened to the arguments yet. I think they will engage, but only in the last week or two.
It’s like me with the World Cup. I’m not really a football fan and when the first games start I cannot really be bothered. But by the time of the semi-finals, you cannot keep me away from it. And there’s no way I would miss the final.
I think that when people finally engage, there will be votes to be won, not only from DKs but from people who are currently saying “No”. They will, belatedly, listen to the arguments – and we know what happens when people do that.
This ‘chase’ thing has got me remembering that camp comic Duncan Norvelle, who was never off the television with his catchphrase ‘Chase me! Chase me!’
Aye, we were easy pleased back then.
It has been my experience when canvassing that no voters do seem to be angry about something, and like to say No sharply.
A co-canvasser said she was out with her son, early teens, and a No voter, a 1 and No to the “Should Scotland..” question, came after them shouting that they were a disgrace to the country and various other comments. Apparently no one should question the status quo.
The ones who say they would vote No, but are pleasant enough, were in the 3-4 category and did say why. After talking it was mainly about not being able to afford it, and not clear if anyone could deliver what they say. Some said they would like Independence but weren’t sure so would vote No.
I would say if the UK Government asked about the EU, and had not produced so many unfounded obstacles, there would be a very large majority for Yes. There certainly wasn’t great enthusiasm for the union, as Together would like us to believe.
So there will be a lot of very disappointed No voters, in the aftermath, if there were a No vote.
@thoughtsofascot says: 17 July, 2014 at 10:13 am
“Ah, good old Scottish labour at it’s finest. Acting like the Glasgow Gangland thugs of yesteryear.”
What makes you think they were just acting like them, thoughtsofascot? Some of them are certainly old enough to have been the real deal.
@Jeannie
My wife is from the East End (sunny Dennistoun)…you can guess some of the choice Glasgow friendly phrases she uses when I annoy her!
@desimond
See when she speaks to you like that….just hunt her 🙂
It’s the visible anger I don’t understand. The go straight to rage mode, they have to shout and act such as tearing up cards or newspapers – and the men are worse.
The must go on a BT training course for sound bite recital – pound / EU / Defence / Shipbuilding etc.
It is the absolute refusal to discus any topic or to accept any material giving information.
I’ve encountered a few at doors or on the stalls. However it is nothing compared to what the activists in the central belt have to deal with. Anyone who works in the Labour heartlands I salute you – very many good socialists I’m sure but for some the red mist is more obvious than the red flag.
My hometown is Greenock so I have a fair idea what you are up against. Keep the balance it is just a few nut cases.
We all have more in common than divides us!
@desimond
but remember….if you TELL anybody you just hunted her, remember not to articulate the “t” at the end of the word properly. It will sound inauthentic otherwise 🙂
First chance I get, I’ll sit my friends in the east end down and explain to them that perhaps they should refrain from using “obscure patois” with more erudite speaker
Yes, heaven forbid that one should be allowed to discuss one’s own future in one’s own language or patios. There is the potential one’s betters may be looking on or attempting to join in the debate and such exclusion is simply rude and typical of the Cybernat Scotch.
Yes, i was called a ("Tractor" - Ed) by a O/O person… a ("Tractor" - Ed) who wants the people of this country to run this country,there is no arguing with that type of logic. You are best to just let them play with their rattles and sook their dummies.
I’ve rarely been as angry as I am this morning. The reason? The Hamilton Advertiser. We all know that the Press and Journal is an incredibly biased paper thanks to a certain poster but this rag today is something else.
Last week’s paper saw local Labour MSP James Kelly given most of a page to spout the usual scares about pensions and how we are far better together. I wrote what I thought was a decent letter in rebuttal which was not printed, in fact no letter in reply to his piece appeared. But that’s by the by. I thought, naively, that having had a No article last week there would be a Yes piece this week, perhaps from Christina McKelvie MSP. Ha! Incredibly, there are TWO anti-SNP, anti-Yes articles from local MSP Michael McMahon “Scaremongering by Nats worrying” and, as you turn over the page, local Labour councillor/rottweiler Eddie McAvoy, “SNP grant cut is making life tough”. But it doesn’t even end there.
The newly opened Yes shop in Hamilton town centre was vandalised by numerous No stickers the other night, before it had even had it’s official opening. The Advertiser has quotes from McKelvie naturally blaming “BT folk”. It was taken from her Twitter page. But the powers that be at the paper then decide to turn over most of the remainder of the article to local Labour councillor Monica Lennon, in which she somehow manages to turn the blame around to the Yes side.
“I do find it surprising and disappointing that Ms McKelvie has taken to her keyboard late at night to make allegations which disparage the majority of voting people in the town. Are we all guilty because we don’t support the Yes campaign” EH??? Mystic Monica seems to know how Hamilton is going to vote.
“Salmond and the nationalists are losing in the polls and this bizarre attack on staff and volunteers from Better Together, shows some are losing the plot too”.
The incompetent lot then leave the article unfinished with a sentence with no ending.
I may put up my letter later, maybe an undecided pensioner might read it and find out something they didn’t know. More fool me for buying that rag. Lesson learned.
Also, now this whole “chase” and “hunt” thing is out in the open, expect it to be used to hilariously bad effect by the internet atrso-turfers. I saw someone using the terrible insult “ball bag” recently.
@Jeannie
As a Drumchapel lad born and bred I can honestly say that you frightful people are too rough and tumble for moi
I’ve seen No-ist bullying.
An old lady manning a Yes stall at an agricultural show. Some farmer was shouting abuse at her, I’m not exactly dainty, so he zipped it when I told him to, then left.
O/T MORE BBC lies and misinformation
link to bbc.com
“The NHS is fully devolved to the Scottish Parliament, but Mr Salmond argued that cuts to its budget south of the border impacted on Scotland too.”
In the same article SLAB Neil Finlay shows his lack of knowledge:
“Everyone knows it is devolved to the Scottish Parliament and the Tories can’t get their hands on our hospitals and health centres, he said.”
This is is typical of the whole referendum reporting in the MSM: Report the Yes side and twist the words.Follow up with a rebuttal from No which is nonsense. Why don’t they do thei research, print the facts and let people make up their own mind? Oh wait that would be professional journalism and democracy in action..
I fear it will get worse and face to face conversion is the only way we can win this.
@jeannie
Again Jeannie, if the guy who said he was going to “F***** chase him” was going to ignore him so much, why tweet at him?
We mostly all have had an example of such abuse, both on and off-line. I had a guy I spoke to just about every day while either both out walking our dogs or as he passed my gate while coming and going to Loch Ore where he both fished and walked his dog.
He interrupted a conversation between myself and a lady with a YES badge on her hat and wearing a YES T-Shirt just as I was answering her question of, “Where do you get all that information from, Bob”? With, “I’ve supported the SNP since about 1946 …”.
At that he spat at my feet, yelled, “F)&*(&g SNP”, and stormed off in high dudgeon. He has not spoken to me since.
In my neck of the woods, you ”hunt” someone from your door, usually a pest, or an equivalent is ”bolt ya rocket” LOL
I don’t know if this has been said already but whilst I don’t condone the said persons behaviour I can Understand why he has reacted as such.
He has been so nice in the beginning as it hadn’t yet occurred to him that the yessers would be speaking with his neighbors.
After the conversation he has realized that he is about to be severely embarrassed if the yes canvassers begin giving other information to his neighbors and nobody would want to be embarrassed in front of their own neighbors.
I’m guessing that the chap probably is a nice affable person who has panicked at the thought of being embarrassed.
The yessers should of course return with 50 canvassers and he can run about the street shouting his head off at being exposed:)
I was talking with an American who is interested in the referendum. He said that Yes voters always seemed pleasant and talkative. No supporters seem to get angry and rant a lot.
Says it all.
@Wings over Reality
Seriously? If you don’t understand it by now, you never will, and no amount of trying to explain it to you is probably going to help, but I’ll have one last try: See what I’m doing to you now? – that’s you getting chased (in the “obscure patois” sense of the word, of course.
@Jeanie
Bunter and you and me. I am a glaswegian and both “chase” and “hunt” are used routinely in the way that you describe.
@Brian Powell says:
A co-canvasser said she was out with her son, early teens, and a No voter, a 1 and No to the “Should Scotland..” question, came after them shouting that they were a disgrace to the country and various other comments.
“You have been shouted at with Wallace, now get shouted at with me …”
Cath says: “I saw someone using the terrible insult “ball bag” recently”.
Probably a middle-class BT supporter, or did you Anglicise it Cath? Correct usage is “bawbag” – works far better.
@Wings Over Non-Reality – Why haven’t you addressed the abuse which the yes campaigners received? Abuse is wrong on both sides but you are missing the whole point in that the MSM only report it from one side.
Wings Over Reality says:
This is appalling whataboutery
Translation: How DARE you interrupt NoThanks when we’re using bad behaviour of individuals to smear the entire independence movement!
@Fiona
Indeed – and we should probably point out that should you unfortunately fall victim to this type of heinous attack, you have officially been “huntit”.
Little Ms Happy versus Little Ms Grumpy.
I’d like to think it’s because Yes people hope they are winning, No people fear they are losing.
I have been wondering if it’s all an underlying personality trait? Those with a positive optimistic outlook on life have gravitated to Yes, while those of a grumpy disposition have sunk to No.
Or, perhaps self centred/me first people favour No, those who look outwards favour Yes.
Any or all of those explanations seems plausible and fits what we hear and see.
A happy positive I-care-about-others No activist seems a rare beast indeed!
Without taking the generalisations too far, I think we all see the two camps as representing quite different attitudes beyond the straight Independence issue.
@Harry McAye
When Rutherglen Main street and Town Hall was getting its overhaul, it was said Eddie McAvoy was very upset when he discovered the council had commissioned a bronze bust of his then Labour Chief Whip (and £85k expenses claimer) brother Tommy ( now a Lord of course).
The councils response….commission one of Tommy too!
My daughter went to school with the nephew so the McAvoy dynasty will no doubt continue. I used to work with James Kelly back in his IT project Manager days, he was always a nice decent guy, I blame the Labour Party for the shadow of a man he is now.
@Cath
Hurricane Ball Back just doesn’t have the same ring to it, does it? 🙂
** …commission one of Eddie too
Anent the whitabootery of the propoganda battle.
I have, for the past year, been engaged in an e-mail debate with a former school-mate, who has psent these past 40-years in worthy missionary work in the Sudetenland.
He is a Better Together supporter, however, he keeps shooting himself in the foot by quoting propaganda straight from the Tory Party’s house magazines, the Torygraph and the Mail.
Yesterday he suggested the SNP and Labour should sign a pact, whereby the SNP would be left to run Scotland, if they co-operated to finish-off Labour, who he sees as the real enemy of the UK.
He at least is aware that, SLab hates the SNP more than it does the Tories.
He has come a long way from the guy who went down the pit at 15, living as he now does, in some style in Sussex. But, he is out of touch as to what is going on up here.
@Jeannie
HUNTIT…..aye well now youre talking Glasgwegian….
HUNT…more made up East end nonsense ( don’t tell my wife I said that) 🙂
It’s amazing how angry the real unionist/NAW types are.
They are the BritNats and they are losing. They have no decent arguments for the union and their frustration, simmering for two long years, is now starting to boil over.
Aggression is a common reaction when cognitive dissonance kicks in. These “angry nos” probably realize at some level that their perception of the situation is incongruent with (very) observable facts but to admit that would shake the pillars of their world – hence the vicious reaction.
Congratulations to all Yes campaigners keeping their cool. Any “don’t know” seeing the explosion on one side and the calm on the other is likely to be more sympathetic to Yes. It’s not just the message that counts but also the packaging.
@desimond
Can’t believe Wings over Reality is getting himself in such a stooshie over a tweet about getting chased. I mean, it’s not as if the tweeter said the guy was CLAIMED or anything like that.
When you have engaged the Better Together sort anywhere you invariably have bad language and badly spelled at that so I am not really surprised at this ahem gentleman’s behaviour.
Wings Over Reality says: 17 July, 2014 at 10:39 am:
“This is appalling whataboutery. One example of disgraceful behaviour does not excuse the other.”
So, Whinges Over Reality, what is it you are attempting to say? Is it that it is only the YES side that cannot complain about vile CyberBritNats abuse? Is it that the CyberBritNats have every right to abuse others?
The point being made in the article is that the MSM and Better Together refuse to even acknowledge that their own campaigners, from the very top to the very No Folks in the street have a tendency to abuse.
There are examples from the HOL, HOC, each and every Unionist organ and party in the land. Yet you and your cohorts seem to excuse it,ignore it or, like Alistair Darling attempt to pass it off as light hearted banter.
@galamcennalath
I am not sure it is productive to speculate on motivaton, especially when we cannot be sure that the difference actually exists. At least I can’t. I have never had a No campaigner at my door. I don’t know anyone who has, so far. Who knows how many yes supporters might get a bit angry quite quickly when listening to what any such hypothetical canvasser had to say? Many people are not patient when they are being lied to. No voters also think they are being lied to by the Yes campaign, as is clear from the responses so often reported here and elsewhere. As I often quote
“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It is what you know for sure that just ain’t so”
Many many people rely on the MSM for their information: they think it is fact. Some of them are “I have made my mind up, don’t confuse me with facts” types. But they do not know they are. And they think the same of us, I presume.
@Jeannie
True, true, the wee clipe will be worried about getting chibbed for no reason next
Helena Brown
My spelling is often atrocious. I hope you are not accusing me of having a hidden agenda. 🙂
@Bugger (the Panda) says: 17 July, 2014 at 10:48 am
“W O R I haven’t clue what you are saying.
Thank heavens for that post, BtP, I thought I’d suddenly gone mentally deaf. I’m glad I’m not the only one wondering what the guy was on about.
@jeannie @desimond
I said one example of disgraceful behaviour does not excuse another.
That you both disagree says plenty.
Maybe I’ll give him a cuddle….
@Wings Over Reality
Don’t see anyone disagreeing that one example of disgraceful behaviour does not excuse another
What I see is people disagreeing that there is a second example of disgraceful behaviour at all
Since it seems you do not speak the language you can be excused for not realising that at first. But now that it has been explained to you you have no reason to continue. You are not a native speaker, so perhaps you should defer to those of us who are? Just an idea…
Probably a middle-class BT supporter, or did you Anglicise it Cath? Correct usage is “bawbag” – works far better.
It was on the internet, so just written down that way “ball bag” 😀
Yes but mind you it would seem that even Labour’s finest can get upset, I have just received this, could someone please tell me how to stop laughing before I do myself some damage!
Jim Mitchell —
I don’t usually forward emails from Grant Shapps but this has made me so incredibly angry that I had to share it with you. It’s simply packed full of lies.
Have a read of it. If it makes you as angry as it made me, here’s something you can do — donate to our campaign fund so we can fight back.
As the election approaches, we face a choice: either we let our politics descend into smears and lies, or we give voters the fair, honest campaigns our country and our democracy deserve. The Tories have made it clear which side they are on.?
Best,
Iain
Iain McNicol
General Secretary of the Labour Party
—
From: Grant Shapps, Conservative Party Chairman
Sent: 16 July 2014 19:52
Subject: CONFIRMED: Labour want to raise your taxes
Harriet Harman has let the cat out of the bag: Labour want to raise your taxes.
In a radio interview on LBC, she said ‘I think people on middle incomes should contribute more through their taxes’.
Ed Miliband has previously said ‘people either side’ of £26,000 a year are on middle incomes (BBC Breakfast, 28 February 2011).
So millions of hardworking taxpayers would pay the price for a Labour Party that hasn’t learnt its lesson.
While we have frozen fuel duty and cut income tax for over 25 million hardworking taxpayers, Labour raised taxes by £1,400 per family when they were in government (Source: IFS, Tax and Benefit reform under Labour, p.24, 7 April 2010).
And now they want to do it all over again.
We can’t let them get away with it. Donate £10 to our campaign today and help stop Labour’s plans to hit hardworking taxpayers.
Thanks,
Grant Shapps
Conservative Party Chairman
—
Angry at the Tories’ lies? Donate to our campaign fund so we can fight back.
Better together-aye right!
@Cath
Not a native speaker, then: ball bag does not exist. Bawbag is in common use however. 🙂
It seems that folk who have been out canvassing have come across a variety of responses; some good, and some not so good.
The thing is, as I say to my wife, if this country votes ‘No’, then so be it! I can live with it. Sure, I’ll be disappointed, but life goes on, and I’ll move along with it. I have other grand schemes in my life, and therefore, I won’t dwell on that disappointment.
However, it is also my belief, that many, and I mean many of those Scots who decided to vote ‘No’ may feel a chill when that result is announced. It won’t be disappointment that they feel, but a sense of creeping regret. A regret that something has passed them-by, and they know they can never change it. It will be like a stain on their souls whenever they reflect on the ‘what if? scenario’, and believe me, privately they will. Whenever there is a mention on the TV, or if they read an article about the defeat of Scottish independence, they will feel it. If things turn really bad over the years (due to austerity), then even their kids as they grow up, may end up asking mum or dad why they didn’t vote ‘Yes’. Hard questions bring painful answers.
I have friends who are going to vote ‘No’. When asked to explain, I get the usual nonsense of Salmond, no proof, white paper is mince, blah …well, you know, the usual guff. These are the people who will suffer that regret. Anyone with a decent intelligence, sensibility, and a grasp of what is going on, should be seeing the light, but instead, decide to perpetually question the Yes argument, without any proof of conviction in the ‘No’ argument. Those are the ones who will eventually, as Jim Sillars bluntly put it, ‘will bitterly regret it’. It is these people who will carry a burden. They may not know it yet, but it’s waiting for them if ‘No’ should win the referendum.
I remember back in the early naughties, at the height of Blair’s popularity, I innocently remarked to an old friend (Labour activist/ex-councillor) that New Labour were becoming more like the Tories.
Wow, what a transformation! A gentle, friendly old guy suddenly became purple with rage, with glazed eyes. It was quite a sight. Comparisons with the tories obviously crossed the line with him – a terrible insult (funny how noone takes such offence at Tory comparisons nowadays).
It is similar with the diehard BritNats, to them the union is beyond criticism. To question and challenge the union is gold-platted treason. It is an increasingly ridiculous position to maintain, but quite a few stubborn individuals are trying desperately to hold the line. Others may see groups of friendly, positive and good-natured YES supporters walking the streets and engaging anyoine who is interested. The Brit Nats see their world crumble around them.
Walk away.
Not a native speaker, then: ball bag does not exist. Bawbag is in common use however.
Exactly. It screams “astro-turf” to me 🙂
Susan says: 17 July, 2014 at 10:53 am:
“You and your foreign accent” one BT women shouted at me while I was handing out WFI leaflets”:”
I passed a group of six or seven ladies with YES badges, hats & t-Shirts but I didn’t stop to speak with them as I was late for an appointment but I said, “Bonny Day Again”, as I passed. I don’t think there was a single Scottish accent among them when they replied.
I did know one lady in the group. A very nice Dutch lady who used to live in the village but moved away some years ago. However the accents of the group were certainly not all Dutch.
I just assumed, Susan, they were, like yourself, The People of Scotland.
@desimond
LOL. “clipe” and “chibbed” – Wings over Reality fervently thumbing through his Proper English – Obscure Glasgow Patois dictionary.
Jeanie,
The ‘patois’ you refer to is also very common in Lanarkshire where I grew up.
“Da, there’s a guy at the door askin if ye want tae buy insurance, will I hunt him?” “Aye!” my old man would reply.
Luigi
‘Walk away’
Exactly, mate. If someone says ‘No’, then for me – end of conversation! If someone stops to talk, then they will get my absolute full attention. Converting DK’s is the key. Even a soft ‘No’ is a DK.
As said, if someone say’s ‘No’, then it’s a polite ‘Thank you, and have a nice day’ is my response.
@ Jim Mitchell
As ever they pretend that income tax is the only tax
As it happens they have been reasonably successful in turning “tax” into a much dirtier word then “bawbag” so they expect success on this front
However it is worthwhile to mention that changes in income tax make little difference to people on average wages: so little that they do not notice it, mostly. I remember a conversation I had with someone some years ago: it happened that it was a few weeks after the basic rate of income tax had been cut by 1p in the pound (so it would have been 1996 or 1997. The person I was talking to was discussing the horror of a feared rise in income tax and so I asked her just how much she had gained from the cut. She looked completely blank and said “what cut?” She had no idea that she had just received this “bonanza”: it was quite instructive
it is also my belief, that many, and I mean many of those Scots who decided to vote ‘No’ may feel a chill when that result is announced.
Totally agree. I suspect on the week running up to the referendum, and the day itself we’ll be bombarded with negativity and fear and it’ll drive some to vote no with heavy heart. But the day after, when people see newspaper headlines gloating about the Union winning, editorials and comments about the Jocks bottling it etc, that’s when the creeping regret will start. And after that the constant negativity and propaganda will lift because it can’t be carried on indefinitely.
I suspect by the time of the 2015 GE it’ll be quite hard to find anyone admitting to voting no. And if we end up with another Tory government, aided by UKIP, ever deeper austerity, a referendum on leaving the EU etc, people will start to wonder why they hell they voted no.
But perhaps BECAUSE of that, I also strongly suspect it’ll be yes. When you make a really tough decision, you don’t just think about the decision itself but its impact and aftermath. People will think about the day after and how they’ll feel waking up to both results. And they’ll feel the shadow of that chill and regret on the 18th.
“When you make a really tough decision, you don’t just think about the decision itself but its impact and aftermath. People will think about the day after and how they’ll feel waking up to both results”
Do you think anyone will think about the impact of a yes vote and its potential aftermath of Scotland having no currency union, no central bank and therefore no EU membership?
Of course he was angry. You are jeopardising his chance of a plum union job in London.
Labour? Check. Union official? Check. Actually look after your members and constituents? No thanks, I come first, then my family members, then the party/union, then a select few mates, and then if I’ve got anything left I might maybe possibly think about maybe finding the time to maybe try thinking about doing my job.
I think it is important to expose the nastiness of some in the No camp, but it is also incredibly important to highlight how canvassing helps the campaign for independence. We have a brilliant grassroots, where people give up hours of their time every day of the week knocking on doors, speaking to ordinary people about their thoughts on independence.
It is s pretty much the only way to connect with people who don’t use the internet and there are way more of them than us, undecided, only reading the headlines or spending 5 minutes listening to the biased pro-union TV news.
I am new to canvassing, not quite five foot in height and quite terrified of dogs, not involved with any political party, so canvassing was daunting, and still is, but the benefits hugely outweigh the negatives. If you want a Yes in September you have to knock on people’s doors – social media can only reach a few, talking to people on their own doorstep, they are comfortable, safe and can ask questions. Every time you get a No move to Yes, and putting a sticker in their window is an amazing feeling – please encourage people to canvass as it is vitally important and one of the few ways we can beat the establishment – that is why they are bussing in activists from out with Scotland.
@Wings Over Reality
I never once commented on your comments about whataboutery (and its whatabootery surely as its a Scottish football based term generated from Rangers fans trying to dismiss stories about their clubs mis-doings by raising counter claims about issues at other clubs).
Stu makes it clear there is one clear incident of abuse and one of perceived abuse. For someone with a Title of reality, seems silly to be talking about scary things that only happened in someones mind.
@ Cath and Luigi
Don’t forget that many older voters have already had that experience. When the goal posts were moved and devolution was lost in 1979 many had exactly that experience, and they have not forgotten. I do not think they or their families will be unaware of that sense of having made the wrong choice to vote no or not to vote, particularly when promises of “something better” did not materialise. It is part of some people’s family history. Cognitive dissonance protects some, and maybe that is the source of some of the rage encountered on the streets: but more will determine not to make the same mistake again, at least so I hope
@Duggie
Brilliant….I thought that was gonna be the first reply without a EU reference but you crammed it in the last few words. Congratulations, you never let us down!
I’m glad Robert Bryce said that, because I’m not from Glasgow and both “hunt” and “chase” are in my vocabulary in that context. I’m from Lanarkshire.
It certainly doesn’t mean “ignore”, it means to send someone packing in no uncertain terms.
Now, If I’ve been told where to put my Yes newspaper by a householder, I might relate to the group that I was “hunted” by that women in the Main Street, or something like that. I’m in Peeblesshire now. Nobody has ever indicated that they didn’t understand me. Are they only being polite?
@Lene Kruhoffer
This is your business the same as it is the business of any citizen of Scotland no matter where they originated, what accent they have.
Independent or not it still affects your life as much as theirs one way or another.
You are a real Scot, this is your country and let no-one tell you any different.
Do you think anyone will think about the impact of a yes vote and its potential aftermath of Scotland having no currency union, no central bank and therefore no EU membership?
Project Fear are relying on enough people believing the aftermath of a Yes vote will be terrifying and we’ll be a failure of a country, end up like Zimbabwe, be kicked out the EU, uniquely not be able to have a currency that works etc.
I suspect by September they may struggle to find enough people still willing to believe such patent rubbish, but the media are doing a good job of trying to make sure it’s all still the narrative. Along with smearing everyone who does believe we can and should be a perfectly successful independent country as abusive Nazis and the like.
But the point is, even if they DO manage to find enough people in September, once the propaganda stops and the reality of a no hits, that’s when it’ll also begin to hit many people who did fall for it that they were duped.
@Morag
So, to clarify, the tweeter was telling the guy from Liverpool that if he came up here and tried to speak to him about Better Together’s view of the referendum, he would be told in no uncertain terms that he disagreed with him.
Vile cybernat abuse ain’t what it used to be 🙂
@Cath
Don’t feed the trolls.
When people lose an argument they usually resort to shouting and often abuse or walk away. The ‘Better Together’ campaign, has lost the debate, they can’t walk away so they resort to shouting and often abuse, Just listen to J. Lemont’s contribution to any debate. Look at the Media, they always lead with ‘stupid and lurid’ Headlines and try to personalise the issue by referring to A. Salmond and never the people of Scotland who want Independence, they never allow real discussion of the issues, this is just a form of shouting. When you are in an argument with someone who has no positive contribution to make, you have to expect that their frustration will lead them to defend their position by shouting and getting abusive. Hope you continue with the canvassing, good luck.
I’d say the tweeter was telling the guy from Liverpool that if he came to Glasgow spouting that line he’d be told to go away because he wasn’t welcome.
Morag says:
“I’m glad Robert Bryce said that, because I’m not from Glasgow and both “hunt” and “chase” are in my vocabulary in that context. I’m from Lanarkshire.”
I would certainly hunt or chase squirrels from my bird table. If a BT activist comes to my door I may hunt/chase them, or I may engage in debate with them, mood dependent.
Ayrshire originally and very much part of my vocabulary.
OT
Published on an earlier thread by accident.
Just heard Danny Alexander on R 4 and wondered what was wrong.
He is turning into an Englishman.
His English pronunciation is not what I have heard of him recently.
Guess he is getting ready to be integrated into Mother England post the Yes vote.
“Guess he is getting ready to be integrated into Mother England post the Yes vote.
In Glasgow we call that WOR, “getting your retaliation in first.”
Off topic but maybe in tune with the headline of this article. The Scottish Daily Mail is currently including 4 page reprints from WW1. It is of course of the time but nevertheless makes for thoughtful reading.
In today’s reprint from the Daily Mail of September 4, 1914 we learn that: “Miss Christabel Pankhurst has returned to London to stir the men of England to arms in defence of their country”,”Her duty lies in England”,”there are still some people in England who do not realise how very grave the crisis is before our country”.
We also learn “an English officer was wounded”,”an Englishman watching the German troops entering Brussels had a little English flag snatched from him”.
Baroness Orczy is saying “Women and Girls of England, your hour has come, I want your men, brothers…”,”My country wants me! Here I am. England cries out to you Women of England”.
Finally a reader’s letter ” Whenever was there a roll of honour more English in every syllable than the list of casualties published yesterday? Almost every name recalls familiar things like a quotation from a great author, and impresses on one the coherent progress of English history”. “Beyond these almost every name in the roll is redolent of English social life and achievement over the centuries – Collingwood, Hardy, Broadhurst, Gibbon, Priestly, Oliphant, Shearman, Stevenson, Townsend,, Chitty and Kennedy…. The mere list of names should make an Englishman yearn to be in such company”.
Good old days of Empire?
“Project Fear are relying on enough people believing the aftermath of a Yes vote will be terrifying”
The point is that the potential aftermath of a yes vote resulting in no currency union, no central bank and therefore no EU membership is just as likely, if not more so, as your potential aftermath of a no vote resulting in a Tory government propped up by Ukip, and a vote to leave the EU in 2017.
Your kind of scaremongering does our cause no good, particularly if its in conjunction with complaining about ‘project fear’ scaremongering while engaging in scaremongering yourself.
Congratulations James on being the true professional canvasser that exist throughout the length and breadth of the YES campaign. I want to say that I am surprised nay astonished even that your abuser was a former Labour councillor regrettably this is not so rare as we all think.
Please pass on to your fellow canvassers our deepest sympathies for what she had to endure from the former councillor James and tell that most canvassing is not like that. 😉
I relayed an incident on Wings on Tuesday that happened to my partner on Tuesday night. I’ll restate it here.
My partner was out in Annan on Tuesday night with YES South Annandale doing some canvassing. At some point during the canvassing she decided to buy some water for the canvassers but had to return home for her purse. Just as she was about to return home she received a text that the NO Together/Better Thanks squad were in Eastriggs, our home village. So being the inquisitive type that she is she quickly found them and lo and behold it was a Labour M.S.P. and three Labour councillors. She stopped and had a bit of banter with them, mostly about why they were out surely it should have been the folk from England etc. It was going fine then all of a sudden she got a load of sexist abuse from one of the councillors.
I think it is gone well past the point of no return for the NO whatever crowd now. If anyone dares question their *ahem* claims etc then only one thing is certain, the questioner can expect nothing but a reel of abuse from the Better whatsit gang member.
The end of neoliberalism:
link to youtube.com
About the “obscure patois” – it’s not obscure, it’s not Glaswegian and it’s not West Coast. I was raised in a wee village in the East of Scotland and “chase” and “hunt” were used in exactly the way criticised by Wings Over Reality.
@Wings over Reality
Just to say I was brought up in Dundee and we also used the term “chase him” to mean ignore him or send him on his way.
As far as “obscure patois” we didn’t even have an inside toilet.
Ah Duggie … and there was me thinking I’d wiped my feet when I came in this afternoon.
Chase – To quote the lovely man that is Stanley Baxter, it means
AWAEYAEGOYAMUGYAE
Just munching a packet of McVitties English Digestive Biscuits or to be more precise, Sablés Anglais witha guardman marching all about the box and unionjackery everywhere, with the wee boxed in rider [No 1 en Angleterre and a a Union Flag]
Ah McVitties, this would be the Scottish Company founded at the en of the 19th Century in Edinburgh, inventor of the digestive biscuit and Jaffa Cake, which took over McDonald’s Biscuits, founded in Glasgow and inventors of Penguin biscuits and later McFarlane Lang of Glasgow to become United Biscuits of ENGLAND?
FFSAKE No 1 in England!
They’ll be telling us next they invented football.
Chase and hunt are well known where I live(Airdrie) as terms meaning to move someone on. As in “see that idiot I was talking to he said something stupid so I chased him”, it really means moved them on. Or “I hunted those weans playing football in the street”, again this means moved them on usually with a choice word or two. Both of those comments I have heard in the last week.
@GCHQ, can you please get a technician to check the Wings over reality bot. It is now just spouting unintelligible pish.
Beaker does change as he crosses the sanity/logic barrier into Westminster. Another weirdo changer is Ian Davidson MP, who flips from a deeply contrived Scotch accent to standard English with noticing, but when he does, he goes bizarrely glottal on our sorry ears. And ofcourse there’s my Slovene girlfriend Jezereena of the BetterTogether No Thanks Slovenia branch , who can change names and even her sex, into Glasgow uni law lecturer, gorgeous pouting Professor Adam Tomkins
link to id.theguardian.com
If you’re out there Adam, you’re a constitutional law expert, why not get stuck into non fascist, non dictatorship teamGB and this coming UKOK farce/nightmare or is everything about AlicSamin in your life now? I mean Aliesbadas or who ever you are today?
link to theguardian.com
I think we’re seeing only the tip of the iceberg with regards to the abuse of Yes campaigners
The Dumfries Yes stall in the town centre has been targetted for racist abuse at least twice, the most recent time that I’m aware of the Police became involved but I don’t know whether action was taken
My mum has been verbally attacked several times while delivering the newspapers in Galloway. I know I would struggle to get over that kind of attack, which is why I haven’t become involved in canvassing, so the hostility and aggression is definitely putting off people from campaigning
Should there not be a reporting method for noting these incidences of abuse against Yes campaigners so that a record can be made and patterns of abuse assessed? Surely Yes Scotland has a duty of care at the very least to people distributing campaign materials, and so should be monitoring the experiences of campaigners?
What a nasty piece of work. I’m sure he fits right in with Mr McDougall’s idea of the perfect BT nobot. How and ever since he was the eejit doing the ranting, I’m sure his actions and the effect he had on the elderly canvasser won’t have escaped the neighbour’s notice.
Better Together? If you can’t care for all of your electorate you’re not fit to care for any.
I see the Record has had a massive cull of the pro-Yes comments on the article. Even my rather tame comment has fallen foul. It was along the lines of:
So 3 rather tame tweets is a torrent of abuse? I foresee a career in NuLabour for the lad, he appears to show the requisite lack of testicular fortitude. I couldn’t imagine him lasting 2 minutes on a picket line during the 1984 miners’ strike.
@Wings Over Reality says: 17 July, 2014 at 11:43 am:
“Lived in Glasgow for four years and never, ever heard that. And of course, someone so intent on ignoring him would no doubt immediately tweet their intention to do so at him in obscure patois.”
Well Whinges over Reality. I’m nearly 80 and though fairly well acquaint with Glasgow have never spent more than the occasional overnight stay with some friend or other. Yet I recognize the, “Obscure Patois”, of your typical Weegie speaker and the poster’s explanation is 100% correct. I do not know where in the great city of Glasgow you inhabited but you sure as hell have had little or nothing to do with the genuine people of Glasgow.
May I suggest you take a course in the language – I understand that such classes can be arranged by appointment with someone known as somewhat of an expert – a certain Stanley Baxter. I understand he now resides in London where he aims to instruct those most pure speakers of the English language known as Cockneys or East Enders, in the obscure patois as spoken by the native Glaswegian.
I got this sort of stuff while out leafleting in Clarkston. As I walked down the path to the door, the householder (a fat wee bald man in his forties) came out and said,
“Not interested.”
“Fair enough.” I replied.
“Get LOST!” He barked as I walked away. I turned and pointed out that it was enough with his first comment and the second was not necessary. I then walked off his property onto the street. In the seconds it took to do this he had scoured his compendious vocabulary and shouted,
“F~#k Off, Traitor Scum!”
Strangely, I didn’t see him at the packed public meeting that the leaflet was for. Maybe it’s because it was standing room only with 200+ in the hall. Who knows?
OT
can anyone put up a link to the PQ3 facebook page please
@Jeannie says: 17 July, 2014 at 11:51 am:
I don’t know where in Glasgow you lived for four years but I can assure you, as someone who was born and brought up here, it’s common “patois” in this neck of the woods.”
Chuckle! Well, Jeannie, you may well not be old enough to know where this reference comes from, but my impression of, “Whinges over Scotland”, is that he, or she, may well be a family member of the McFlannel Clan. He/she is certainly well up on loads of total flannel.
@Wings over Reality
You’re now beyond getting “huntit”. What is now happening is that you are “gettin yer heid in yer hauns tae play wi'”. Always happy to help any patois enthusiast and budding linguist, especially with the Commonwealth Games just around the corner.
I don”t normally respond to trolls on this site as I regard them as being quite deluded. However given that the old chestnut of no currency union is being aired for the umpteenth time it is worth reflecting on precedent, the main example being how Ireland fared in winning independence.
In 1922 Ireland became an independent country, the 6 counties in the north opting out and remaining with the UK. The Free State continued to use the pound sterling for 6 years until 1928.The currency was of course printed and minted in England.
In 1928 the Irish government decided to print and mint their own currency which was tied to the pound sterling. This arrangement continued for 50 years until 1978 when they broke the link with sterling and floated their own currency in world markets. The reason this was done was to prepare for the eventuality of monetary union in the EU.
It is of course quite true that in the 56 years being tied to sterling they had to live with interest rates and exchange rates being decided in London. Now these are decided in Frankfurt but being a full member of the EU they have input to decisions taken by the ECB.
It is certain that an independent Scotland will be in a currency union with rUK but even if this was not the case the example of Ireland shows it is quite feasible to get by quite happily using sterling which is an internationally traded currency.
O/T
Has anyone heard if its true that an Edinburgh hospital has just taken down its Saltire, due to a complaint? Surely not??
Guys,
Why are you getting into debates with these guys like WoR and Duggie who may have had questions, but are now obviously trolling.
Ignore them.
no currency union, no central bank and therefore no EU membership
If there were ever 3 things which logically did not, and could not, connect and follow on from each other, this would be the 3.
The 4th would be the poster.
@Jeannie
I think for poor WoR the games a bogey and their heids up the lum
I came across these stories over on Newsnet earlier but was unsure which, if any to link to so guess what peeps, I’m linking all three! 😛
This story is about BA axing its London City to Aberdeen route because of APD. Hmm, might explain a certain Alex Johnstone’s *ahem* claim that the Tories are axing APD perhaps.
link to tinyurl.com
This just an ongoing article about the anti independence side being accused of lying over Junkers statement.
link to tinyurl.com
This has to be the piece de resistance though. Apparently our favourite Shadow spokesperson for Scotland is to make a speech attacking independence, quelle surprise!, and is using out of date data to do so. 😛
link to tinyurl.com
@Duggie
“Your kind of scaremongering does our cause no good”
LMFAO here…cracker mate, a pure belter big chap, keep them comin!!
Robert Peffers
I used to know Maisie or Mrs Jackson as she was, or Mother to a school friend of mine.
They all emigrated to the USA before Vietnam so I always wondered in my schoolpal ended up there.
@Jeannie
Last one for me
I fear WoR is now staring extremely glaikit at his screen.
@desimond
Agreed – his bum’s oot the windae, his arse is in parsley and aye…..his Maw!
Haw! Better Thegither. Yer tea`s oot!
An sow`s yours WoR.
BBC ‘article’ entitled “Why does Salmond make referendum speeches in England?”
Long winded including almost derogatory comments from some guy called Prof Curtice.
2nd last paragraph actually explains the reason, it’s an invitation from FT at the INTERNATIONAL Festival for Business. The location of Liverpool is coincidental…
link to bbc.co.uk
Never mind striking, I’d sack the journos for being imposters.
@Desimond
Aye, his heeds that nippin noo that he’s blawin oot his erse!
Harry McAye: it could be that your letter arrived at the Advertiser too late for publication. Might be worth politely e-mailing the editor and asking if there is a deadline.
I live in Cambuslang and we had (probably) the identical
mince from James Kelly in the Rutherglen Reformer which is part of the same publishing stable. I responded and it was published this week. (I also had to rebut comments from a “No” letter-writer and Jim Murphy who held an open-air monologue to two men and a dug.
It’s a tsunami of negativity:you can hardly draw breath to say something positive about the Yes campaign for having to concentrate on responding to the tidal wave of misinformation and worse from BT.
The Reformer comes out on a Wednesday, so getting a letter in by e-mail by Friday is the best bet for publication. I would imagine a similar situation at the HA, but maybe they
have a different publishing schedule or the editor is less even-handed/not keen on debate breaking out.
This week, it is Westminster MP Tom Greatrex’s turn to use the pages of the Reformer to tell us that the lights are going out if we vote Yes (not joking, btw), accompanied elsewhere by a report on the BT stall on Rutherglen Main St. The Yes campaign did a stall in Blantyre last weekend (though I couldn’t be there). Did it get any reportage in the Advertiser?
I have always had a fair crack of the whip from the Reformer when writing letters, but the Yes campaign is getting less coverage. Maybe they are just better at getting stuff in:double the coverage for one sixth of the participants.
In the previous edition of the Reformer, there was a decent article on a recent Yes campaign meeting in Rutherglen with Blair Jenkins and Carol Fox described as “packed” (which it was). Unfortunately, there was no photograph included from the Yes meeting while photos did accompany reports on Jim Murphy’s “100 toons” guff (described as attended by a “handful”) and a Lib Dem afternoon meeting with Malcolm Bruce. The photos should have been an embarrassment to both of them though. Murphy’s showed the backs of a few balding heads, at least 2 of them recognisable to me as being Labour councillors, so one wonders how many real punters were there. Meanwhile, the average age of the dozen people at the Lib Dem meeting must have left Malcolm Bruce feeling pretty spritely (don’t get me wrong: I am no spring chicken myself, but at least at the Yes meeting there was a spread of ages).
We are denied the space that the Unionists get in all forms of media, most especially print, but keep trying to get letters published. I had one in yesterday’s Metro (though with an inadvertent error…). We need to try to access any space we can.
I am sure we are winning the arguments, and according to a recent report in the Herald, we are seen to have the best campaign by a measure of 2 to 1. Keep on keeping on.
@Jeanie
I love how you can turn to slang yet still retain good grammar. Mare pow’r tae ye!
@fiona
“You are not a native speaker, so perhaps you should defer to those of us who are?”
Wow.
Cath says: 17 July, 2014 at 12:16 pm:
“First chance I get, I’ll sit my friends in the east end down and explain to them that perhaps they should refrain from using “obscure patois” with more erudite speaker.”
As to more erudite. This one, Cath, is stone cold truth. We had a female teacher of geography in the Leith School I attended. She came from Morningside, or as she pronounced it, “Moarningsaid”.
During one lesson on Belgium she asked us to name the main shipping ports but we could not list them all. She became a bit irritated, stamped her foot, clapped her hands and shouted at the class, “Children! children! Ostend”. At which, as one, the entire class rose to its feet.
So, young Harry is the Sec of West Derby CLP in Liverpool which was offering free travel and food for English folk to come up and makeup for the lack of Scots Better Together grassroots campaigners.
The record article was a lift from a blog he did for the Labour website. You can view the “shameful” “barrage” of “abuse” here:
link to twitter.com
Norwegian movie Trolljegeren released in the UK as Troll Hunter.
Do you think they just told the trolls to bugger off (in the Scots meaning), or do you think they went after them for sport (in the English meaning)?
@David Stevenson
Hope you went to see Tommy Sheridan in the Glencairn recently. Anne, one of the owners is a big YES fan and I’ve always thought it would be a great venue for a big Wings celebration ( if a little hard to get home from) one night and Im sure they would be on-board.
link to youtube.com
Campaigners have a right to go round canvassing without being intimidated and verbally abused by loud mouthed louts.
Typical Better Together campaigners. I read about cybernats who had abused JK Rowling but the cybernats were living in England and were English with no connection whatsoever with Scotland.
I appreciate, Stuart, that you do a tremendous and demanding job with this site as it is, but perhaps a page for a record of No abuse, where possible in the words of victims, would be a good addition to the site?
@Robert Peffers
Brilliant!
O/T
When 2 x AGR (Advanced Gas-cooled) Nuclear reactors at Torness jointly supply 1,364 Mega-watts of electricity, this is enough to supply 2 x million homes across the UK.
According to Wikipedia.
Meanwhile, the Hydro-elec. scheme at Cruachan (loch Awe) supplies safe elec. at 440 x Mega-watts.
How many Cruachans does it take to supply Two million homes in Scotland with safe sustainable electricity?
1,364 divided by 440 = 3.1
Therefore, if an Independent Scotland builds Four x Cruachan equivalents……
Glendoe is the most recent example of new hydro, and although smaller in production terms (100Mw) than Cruachan(440Mw), it only cost £140 million to complete.
Glendoe supplies 100 x mega-watt hours daily and 180 x Giga-watts annually.
1,364 divided by 100 Mw = 13.64 x Glendoe`s.= £1.86 billion
But only 4 x Cruachan will supply – MORE than 2 million homes in Scotland. For less than £1.8 billion pounds.
URANIUM 238 HAS A RADIOACTIVE HALF-LIFE at 4.5 BILLION YEARS
THORIUM 232 HAS A DEADLY HALF-LIFE AT 14.1 BILLION YEARS
At a pound per year for security = £4.5 billion.
But it will cost far more, in Trillions.
Zero nuclear “ACCIDENTS” versus Hydr-elec.
Tens of thousands of acres of the seabed surrounding Dounreay and beyond are fatally contaminated with radioactive particles that will not be safe for over Four and a half billion years.
Incidentally, Dounreay Nuclear Power Station cost £15 million to build – and the latest Guesstimate for Decommissioning by 2025 is £2.9 billion.
You will note that during nearly 6,000 years this seabed provided shellfish,crab,lobster,fish etc that FED our ancestors and their children – before – and after the Highland Clearances.
Who would dare to eat anything from there today
WantonWampum
Spot on!
and don’t forget decommissioning and hot storage costs.
I had a lonely councillor round my bit campaigning for united with labour . nice chap i told him i was voting yes and took his information from him anyway. it was a projection information leaflet of all the things the SNP are doing but it was what labour really wanted to do . Like i said nice chap although misguided.
@Robert Peffers
Brilliant, still chuckling at that one.
@Wings Over Reality says: 17 July, 2014 at 1:01 pm:
“I said one example of disgraceful behaviour does not excuse another. That you both disagree says plenty”.
Indeed, Whinges over Reality, it says your logic, language skills and though processes are somewhat lacking. Allow me to clarify them for you.
You state, “one example of disgraceful behaviour does not excuse another”.
Now consider what that actually can mean. Here is one interpretation – Does Alistair Darling’s example of disgraceful behaviour of claiming all we, “YES supporters are blood & soil nationalists”, excuse, Lothians Labour MSP Lord George Foulkes, a former UK government minister, referred to the First Minister as “Il Duce” – the nickname of Italy’s Second World War leader?
Get it now, Whinges Over Reality? You did not indicate clearly you meant the insults of one side of the debate did not justify insults from the other side of the debate. Then compounded your error by not understanding why people correctly interpreted your gobbledegook.
‘Seeded up Thatcherism’ = ‘soft’ eugenics?
Speeded up
Sorry, try again.
‘Speed-ed up’
WOR
Round these parts it’s only if someone says”I’m having you” or ” ill burst you” usually accompanied by a pointy finger you may reflect your patois has upset the equilibrium.
Even my 77 year old Mother uses the terms hunt and chase and considering she uses a walking stick, I think your grasping at straws.
The sheer hypocrisy of the no camp is staggering, add to that the media and the press, and their utter contempt for fair reporting, on anything to do with the independence campaign that show yes in a good light, and you can plainly see why independence is the only way forward.
@Fiona says: 17 July, 2014 at 1:19 pm:
“As ever they pretend that income tax is the only tax
And that, Fiona, is a mouthful.
The thing is that the Labour Party when in office increased the gap between the rich & poor even more than the ToryLibDems. This was done simply by introducing more & more indirect taxation.
Direct taxation is levied upon income, profits and wealth. Thus the people most able to pay do pay most. Indirect taxation is levied upon goods & services and is thus forced upon everyone from before birth to after death. It meant that where before the change main burden of taxation fell upon the richest 15% of the population it now comes from the poorest 15% of the population.
We all must pay VAT, Road Fuel Duty, (even if we do not drive a vehicle as costs are passed onto the customer). Alcohol Duty, Betting Tax, Tobacco duty. et al.
That is why, even in a deep recession, the rich have continued to get richer and the poor are still getting poorer. Put it this way fair Taxation should consider, “disposable Income”. That is, “the part of a person’s income remaining after deducting personal income tax”. So if you tax mainly indirectly you leave the poorest with NO disposable income or as we are seeing now, a negative disposable income, (they cannot afford to live), or are in debt. The rich guy hardly notices for it costs exactly the same to put a cooked tattie on the rich man’s plate as it does for the poor man. At the end of the week the poor guy has been to Wonga and the food bank while the rich guy has had to buy a bigger wallet because he has a disposable income.
So what was the first thing the ConDems did on gaining office?
The upped the VAT and brought more item into the VAT scheme and thus increased the indirect taxation. Income tax ceased to be the main tax a long time ago.
The CyberBrits and those intimidating YES folk on the street seem to be the core strength of Better Together. Most people of either opinion don’t feel ‘angry’ and neither are the majority of YESSERS. Only seems to be Better Together. I can only assume that their reason for voting No is the same thing that makes them angry – pure hate.
“It is certain that an independent Scotland will be in a currency union with rUK”
Er…….how does your example of Ireland, which was NOT in a currency union with the UK, in any even tiny possible way back up your claim that it is ‘certain’ Scotland will be in a currency union, or disprove in any tiny way those who suggest it may not be?!
“it is quite feasible to get by quite happily using sterling which is an internationally traded currency”
Correct. No one on this thread, or anywhere else, is suggesting that Scotland couldn’t use sterling unofficially outside a currency union if it wants.
But the point is that such a situation would mean Scotland would not have a central bank.
No central bank = No EU membership.
David Stevenson – I did the letter on Friday night, they would have first seen it probably on Monday morning, plenty of time for going to press on the Wednesday. I expect we’ll get Greatrex’s piece in next week’s paper. I haven’t been buying it every week. I’ve been regularly scunnered by their bias. There was a quite ridiculous letter a couple of months ago from someone stating that the NHS as we knew it would end with a Yes vote. It was one of the most mis-informed letters I’ve ever seen published. I wrote what, again, I thought was a decent reply but to no avail. They publish crap like that but don’t want to know from the likes of me.
My letter this time pointed out the hard facts that the OECD report confirmed, namely that the UK has, compared to average income, the lowest state pension in Europe and the second worst in the developed world. In bold for any passing undecided pensioner!!!
Christina McKelvie does have a semi-regular column but most weeks it seems to be either McMahon, Hood or McAvoy (I don’t always buy it but often have a leaf through it to check). I also see that the Airdrie & Coatbridge Advertiser has a far bigger letters page with around 8 or 9 letters. The HA has only one page and often only room for a couple of lengthy letters. How about the Rutherglen Reformer?
* either McMahon, Hood, Greaterex or McAvoy, McKelvie seems to the lone Yes voice.
“If there were ever 3 things which logically did not, and could not, connect and follow on from each other, this would be the 3.”
What on earth are you babbling about?!
Quite obviously there is a clear and indisputable connection between those three things.
1. If Scotland is not able to form a currency union with rUK it will not have access to the UK’s central bank
2. The SNP have failed to bother planning (even as a plan b option) for a Scottish currency/Scottish central bank, and have claimed that Scotland will not join the euro (so no ECB) – which means Scotland will not have access to any other central bank either
3. One of the EU’s key requirements of membership is that an applicant has access to a central bank
4. No central bank = no EU membership
Quite frankly its utterly shocking that people with an active interest in the referendum and the issues surrounding it display such ignorance about such simple straightforward facts.
Duggie
4. No central bank = no EU membership
So the new European Commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, was only teasing?
“So the new European Commission president, Jean-Claude Juncker, was only teasing?”
When did he say that Scotland, or anyone else, could become an EU member state without access to a central bank?
Och his arse in parsley or at the vey least his bum’s oot the windie. I’d chase him too.
I’ve spoken to a lot of people while canvassing and I can honestly say the vast majority are brand new. Now and again you get the odd shouty one which always takes you back because it’s so rare. You always get a wee frisson when you knock on a door. Is this going to be a nutter?
The people who chase you most often are the wealthy (Tories)/upwardly mobile (right wing Labour-is there any other kind?) and the OO bods. I kind of understand where they’re coming from. Why should I want to change anything I’m doing very well thank you very much? And, how dare you challenge the authority of my country? You are a ("Tractor" - Ed)! Mostly the latter are quite poor.
The two groups do indeed make strange bedfellows! I had one guy the other night who, when I told him I’d been canvassing round some enormous houses the previous night and I asked how he thought they had answered my question about their voting intentions said “They’ll all be YES voters”! Was he winding me up? Maybe, but I have my doubts.
Duggie
Do you not think he might have mentioned it would be impossible for Scotland to join under such circumstances, if he saw there was going to be a problem?
BT hypocrisy in a nutshell:
Labour activist from England comes to Scotland to campaign in referendum – BT tell us what a fine lad.
Labour former Minister (Kilfoyle) from England tells us he’d vote Yes – BT tell us that the referendum is for Scots to decide.
Just logged on again and scrolled straight to the bottom for a quick update.
Groannnnnnn….Duggie again………..so bored……..dogma……oh!, finished your shift?
Hunting someone away is a very common expression in Ireland. You might have been perfectly polite to the person you hunted, but you can still explain to someone else that you hunted them.
The notion abuse is confined to anxiety ridden ordinary people or the plain drunk is inaccurate. It goes all the way to the top of society.
For my own efforts I’ve been harangued by a university principal and his normally pleasant wife – I barely got to the end of my first sentence – an embarrassing incident for his guests never mind for me. We are still friendly but I have never received an apology. The subject is simply not broached. Very bourgeois.
He’s a posh Jock. His attitude reflects accurately the establishment’s bullying grip on Scottish society and economy and its resources. The elite do not contemplate dissent. And yet this man was the same person privy to tens of millions taken from the Scottish Lottery Fund to subsidise England’s glorious hymn to English nationalism they called the London Olympics, a ‘theft’ from the poor he objected to but carried on serving regardless.
When they see politicians Tory and Labour ranting how else will they react in the face of reason they utterly reject?
Duggie says: 17 July, 2014 at 1:23 pm:
“Do you think anyone will think about the impact of a yes vote and its potential aftermath of Scotland having no currency union, no central bank and therefore no EU membership?”,
Of course they will, Duggie, There are always other idiots like you around. History proves that. Thing is, the truth that they hide from themselves is not hidden from most Scots. The truth I’m now about to challange you to prove legally wrong. In 1284, the Kingdom of England passed the Statute of Rhuddlan. It annexed the princedom of Wales. Can you rove that is wrong?
In 1542 The Kingdom of E£ngland Annexed the Kingdom of Ireland. Can you prove that wrong?
In 1688 the three country Kingdom of England had, “The Glorious Revolution”, deposing their King James II. They then replaced him with King Billy & Mary. Can you prove that wrong? The removed from their new monarchs the veto over the English Parliament thus making their kingdom a Constitutional Monarchy. Can you prove that wrong?
However in 1866 the only two remaining Kingdoms in Britain
were independent. Can you prove they were not?
In 1706/7 the only two remaining equally sovereign kingdoms agreed a Treaty of Union. Can you prove that wrong?
In 1320 the Pope ratified the Declaration of Arbroath that not only was Scotland an independant kingdom but that the people, not the monarch were sovereign – is that true? In 1328 Bruce signed the Edinburgh-Northampton Treaty- True or false?
The Treaty of Union 1706/7 is a bipartite Treaty. Can you prove that wrong?
So, Duggie – final question.
As the United Kingdom is a bipartite Union, can you explain how the rUnited Kingdom can legally exist when The English Kingdom, is a Constitutional Monarchy in a bipartie union with Scotland?
I won’t hold my breath, while I wait.
@Jim says: 17 July, 2014 at 1:32 pm
“This is your business the same as it is the business of any citizen of Scotland no matter where they originated, what accent they have.
Independent or not it still affects your life as much as theirs one way or another.
You are a real Scot, this is your country and let no-one tell you any different.”
Try this on for size Jim :-
The People of Scotland are those who are mainly resident in Scotland, of any creed, colour or country of origin, who are registered to vote in Scottish Elections”.
“Do you not think he might have mentioned it would be impossible for Scotland to join under such circumstances”
Why on earth would he bother mentioning that, when its a well known and clearly defined principle of the EU application process?!
To those irked by Duggie’s contrived insistence on turning every statement upside down so that he enrages the poster, and by so doing boosts his self-esteem as a needle sharp debater – try leaving him to stew – and indeed, to Stu.
“There are always other idiots like you around”
Ahhhhh right. So its only ‘idiots’ who question whether Scotland will form a currency union with the UK and thus be able to have access to a central bank and thus be able to become an EU member is it?!
Your long irrelevant post about the Treaty of Union and the united kingdom of Scotland and England is nothing whatsoever to do with the sovereign state UK’s status as a sovereign state, as recognised under international law and by the entire world – part of that state leaving will not in any way affect the UK’s status as a sovereign state under international law.
But let’s suppose your nonsensical garbage is true and the sovereign state UK won’t ‘exist’ after a yes vote – have you stopped to consider such an occurrence would merely emphasise the point you were desperately trying to argue against – that Scotland would not then be able to form a currency union, have a central bank and become an EU member?
After all, how could we form a currency union with something that doesn’t exist?!
Talk about an idiot!
@Duggie says: 17 July, 2014 at 1:48 pm
Are you really so very idiotic as you come across on this forum, Duggie?
Do you actually understand the crass stupidity you are spouting?
Not to tax your intelligence too far can we just concentrate upon the single idiotic claim you make about a currency union?
Here are the options open to Scotland that the Westminster de facto parliament of England could do nothing about even if they tried.
A – Use the pound in a Currency union that would benefit both Kingdoms. This would mean that the misnamed Bank of England, that was nationalised by the United Kingdom, and is thus partly owned by Scotland, would retain the Scottish share of the business along with the total value of all Scottish bank notes in circulation at present deposited in the Bank’s vaults.
B – Use the pound without a currency union but tied to the value of the Pound. This would be accompanied by the removal of Scotland’s share of the companies total assets and the value of the total Scottish banknotes held in the BofE vaults against the Scottish printed notes. This large sum removed from BofE may well result in a run upon the bank especially as it would also see the removal of the total Scottish Exports from the Kingdom of England’s economy. The English credit rate would nosedive and English business would suffer losses due to currency exchange costs.
C – Start a new Scottish Currency. This is no problem as the notes and coins are already distinctive. We just needs call it the Pound Scots .
One option NOT on the table is to adopt the Euro – that is against the EU rules even if we decide to remain in the union.
Care to comment, Duggie?
Can you see any flaws in those arguments? Please feel free to state them if you have and we can debate your points.
Why on earth would he bother mentioning that, when its a well known and clearly defined principle of the EU application process?!
So he was just teasing. If Juncker knows that Scotland has absolutely no chance of entering the EU, why did his office recently rebuke Better Together for misrepresenting his position re, Scotland and EU expansion?
For a Yes supporter, I hope you don’t mind me suggesting you have a rather odd way of showing it.
“Here are the options open to Scotland that the Westminster de facto parliament of England could do nothing about even if they tried…Use the pound in a Currency union”
Are you seriously attempting to suggest that Scotland can simply form a currency union with rUK if it feels like it, and that rUK won’t be able to do anything about that and won’t have a say on the matter?!?
To think you dare to accuse me of stupidity!
It’s pointless reading the rest of your nonsensical utter garbage, you clearly don’t have even the first clue what on earth you are babbling about!
“If Juncker knows that Scotland has absolutely no chance of entering the EU”
What on earth are you babbling about?
Of course Scotland has a chance of becoming an EU member – if we form a currency union with rUK then we will have access to a central bank and will therefore be eligible for EU membership.
It’s unlikely given the positions of the UK parties, but its nonetheless a possibility assuming Scotland agrees to something in return – which would likely be the retention of Trident in Scotland, sadly.
O/T
@liz g
The PQ3 anti-bias page for next weekend has re-appeared on
link to facebook.com
I think you have to go on to the page and get invited.
Duggie
Who owns Sterling? England? As a shareholder in a business, would you not expect a vote at the AGM, at least?
“Who owns Sterling? England? As a shareholder in a business, would you not expect a vote at the AGM, at least?”
The UK, obviously. You realise a yes vote would result in Scotland leaving the UK don’t you? (I know its hard to tell sometimes given the SNP’s version of ‘independence’ seems to want to cling on like a wee bairn to the UK’s coat tails).
Duggie
I like how you avoided answering my questions, but instead chose to have another pop at the SNP. Duggie, you’re a troll. Fuck off.
@Jeannie says: 17 July, 2014 at 2:41 pm
Agreed – his bum’s oot the windae, his arse is in parsley and aye…..his Maw!
Jist iz lang iz his ba’s no oan the slates!
“I like how you avoided answering my questions”
Er……you asked who owns sterling and I answered the UK!
How is that ‘avoiding’ your question?!
I also answered your wee analogy about voting rights in an AGM by explaining that a yes vote would be Scotland choosing voluntarily to relinquish its right to vote in the ‘company’.
Duggie dear – have you had your pedigree chum yet, you are up late.
Er……you asked who owns sterling and I answered the UK!
Sorry Duggie, but your logic is fatality flawed. Scotland may decide to leave the Union, thereby extinguishing Britain, but we will still own a share in the Bank of England. So if Scotland owns a portion of BoE, failing to achieve a currency union would seem rather odd to me. I certainly wouldn’t want a hostile shareholder in my business, and I would certainly be a bit miffed if I was excluded from my shareholder rights and privileges.
Apologies for my earlier intemperance, but this is not the first time you’ve needed correcting, IMO.
Um – just a wee question, as a vile cybernat (of the English rose variety) can I really get a job running Scotland? If so, do I get to run the corrective services?
You’re just a naughty girl Paula. 😉
@Paula Rose – You could be the chief whip 😀
Cameron dear, you know very well what a good girl I am – just love bringing naughty duggies to heel (and toe).
Croompenstein darling! Once I’ve finished with re-education.
“we will still own a share in the Bank of England”
Er….no we won’t.
“In the event of a vote for independence, Scotland would leave the UK and its existing arrangements, and would need to establish its own macroeconomic and institutional framework as part of forming a new state. The current system of ?scal risk-sharing would end…the UK’s key national institutions – including the BANK OF ENGLAND – would operate on behalf of the continuing UK as before, but would have no power to act in or on behalf of an independent Scottish state, and no obligation to create the structures to do so”
link to gov.uk
They would say that though. 🙂
They also said Scotland was extinguished in 1707. Do you believe that, as well?
FFS Scotland is not ‘leaving’ the UK as it did not join the feckin UK! If we win our independence Scotland will be ‘ending’ the UK. Don’t believe everything you read on the govuk analysis shite as it really doesn’t stand up to International Law
The UK, duggie dear, is the United Kingdom, if Scotland votes Yes – which United Kingdom would remain?
“If we win our independence Scotland will be ‘ending’ the UK”
Dear me, I genuinely can’t belief supposedly well-informed individuals are still spouting this complete and utter guff.
Please tell me you understand the difference between the united kingdom of Scotland and England as formed by the Treaty of Union, and the sovereign state UK of GB and NI that is recognised as such by international law and the entire world, and that would not be “ended” by a yes vote?!
As something who claims to be aware of what does and doesn’t stand up under international law presumably you’d be aware of the fact that a vote which could potentially see 58 million people seeing their state ‘ending’, without those 58 million people having any democratic say in that vote would most certainly not stand up under international law?!
Utterly embarrassing.
They (different players same team), also said there were WMD in Iraq. Did you also believe that and the 45 minute terror threat? 🙁
“if Scotland votes Yes – which United Kingdom would remain?”
The sovereign state UK of GB and NI, obviously.
Duggie dear – when a relationship becomes abusive (marriage analogy) does it require both parties to agree?
Duggie
So was Scotland extinguished in 1707?
So if Scotland once again becomes a free sovereign nation the UK still exists?
To those who are making the utterly ludicrous illogical claim that a yes vote will apparently mean the sovereign UK ‘ceasing to exist’, perhaps they could attempt to explain the following:
1. Why has no political party (including the SNP), no political expert, no legal expert, no international law expert, and no journalist or media outlet EVER suggested that as even a tiny possibility?
2. Why aren’t the UK, the UN, international human rights organisations and every democratic country in the world up in arms about the ‘fact’ that a yes vote would see 58 million people becoming stateless without being given the democratic right to even vote on that matter?!
I genuinely can’t believe anyone is honestly thick enough to believe the above is even a possibility, the fact that posters on this site, presumably with an active interest in the referendum and the issues surrounding it, are expressing such utterly ignorant views is completely shocking.
I wish I could, JLT. I truly do. For me and my family, I seriously doubt we’d be able to manage when the Tories of whatever colour instigate their cuts.
To counter that, Yes must be out in force with such blazing optimism and opportunity that undecideds cannot help but be swept up in the enthusiasm. It’s easy to vote No if you’re scared and think everyone else is scared. The people who vote Yes aren’t doing so out of fear, but of hope. And if there any sort of hope, only the most broken and destroyed of souls could possibly be unswayed.
On the day of the vote, I’ll be out all day, making sure everyone in my area’s gone to vote, and I hope to see everyone doing that. Doesn’t matter if it’s Yes or No or undecided until they walk up to the polling booth, this mustn’t be a repeat of 1979. And we’re going to see lots of smiling, happy, cheerful Yes people compared to lots of dour, frightened, angry No people. I fully believe that if you mitigate the atmosphere of fear & tension, most people will choose hope over fear. They have to. They just have to.
I know that even if any of those things were true, I would prefer it over living in a state which is pushing more children into poverty while billionaires get richer, the disabled suffering and dying for the sake of idealogical perversion, for the poor to be forced into indentured slavery by any other name, to be a citizen of one of only three states on the planet not to support an Israel-Gaza ceasefire, where the establishment has consistently covered up everything from Scotland’s oil wealth to paedophile networks within Westminster. What does a currency union, lack of a central bank, and no EU membership matter compared to being complicit in human rights violations and war crimes? (Not to mention we’ll be out of the EU if the UK votes for it, so I fail to see how voting for independence makes the slightest bit of difference.)
That’s why your infantile scare stories don’t work: it isn’t just that they aren’t true, it’s that living in the UK is demonstrably worse right now than any fantastical future Project Fear can concoct from whole cloth. No voters talk warn against a nightmarish future: Yes voters warn about a nightmarish present.
Duggie
So then, was Scotland extinguished in 1707?
“So if Scotland once again becomes a free sovereign nation the UK still exists?”
Yes obviously. The sovereign state UK will exist exactly as it is now, just without part of it – as someone who apparently knows about international law you’ll be aware of that fact.
You appear to be confusing the united kingdom of Scotland and England – which would be dissolved by a yes vote – and the sovereign state UK of GB and NI – they are NOT the same thing.
“The sovereign state UK will exist exactly as it is now, just without part of it – as someone who apparently knows about international law you’ll be aware of that fact.”
Y’know what? You’ve been told countless times about trolling your unproven, unsupported opinion as undisputed fact. I’ve had enough.
If you lie with dugs you get fleas. They bite, why should you bother.
“So was Scotland extinguished in 1707?”
The Treaty of Union has been superceded by international law.
@Graeme Menzies
…dogma… I like it.
Rev – is it not about time to get that muzzle out!
Thepnr dear – I love watching duggies chasing their tails.
“I would prefer it over living in a state which is pushing more children into poverty while billionaires get richer”
Given the SNP’s utter failure to bother doing anything whatsoever about the shocking poverty levels in Glasgow during their 7 years in power, despite having at least some of the powers necessary to try to make a difference, and given the fact that there are numerous examples of them agreeing to do “whatever” multi-billionaires ask them to do, including overriding democracy to let them build golf resorts, what evidence do you have that an independent Scotland would will do anything to address poverty and inequality?
@Duggie says: 17 July, 2014 at 7:00 pm“
“Ahhhhh right. So its only ‘idiots’ who question whether Scotland will form a currency union with the UK and thus be able to have access to a central bank and thus be able to become an EU member is it?!”
Correct! That’s the first thing you got right. Congratulations.
Your long irrelevant post about the Treaty of Union and the united kingdom of Scotland and England is nothing whatsoever to do with the sovereign state UK’s status as a sovereign state, as recognised under international law and by the entire world – part of that state leaving will not in any way affect the UK’s status as a sovereign state under international law.
Err! Sorry! Wrong!
And you were doing so well to start with.
You blurt out lots of claims and beliefs but not one single cite to prove any of your claims have any substance. Now start again and actually disprove the points I made and which I quoted you Acts, Statutes and documents as proofs of the substance of my case.
How like the Better Together case for the Union – not a shred of evidence for anything.
Claims without substance do not win arguments nor international court cases.
Perhaps because it shows how ludicrous the idea of Scotland being kicked out of the EU actually is?
Wowee duggie dear – do try harder, still, I’m more of a pussy person than a bow wow type.
“it’s that living in the UK is demonstrably worse right now than any fantastical future Project Fear can concoct”
How is the distinct possibility than Scotland will be forced to use the pound unofficially outside a currency union, with no central bank, no lender of last resort, and therefore no EU membership – and the resultant economic meltdown that would cause – worse than our current situation?
The Treaty of Union has been superceded by international law.
That isn’t what HMG would have Scotland believe. Or would you like us to just forget that and accept everything else HMG states as fact, such as the pdf you posted above?
(please delete this and my last comment Rev – its wrong to mock)
Damn – the wee pedigree is still here!
How about when they mitigated the Bedroom Tax?
How about the Council Tax Freeze?
How about the fact that they’re not the ones who introduced the laws which are killing hundreds if not thousands of disabled, poor and disadvantaged?
The idea that the Trump episode and the SNP’s inability to deal with truly catastrophic poverty in an area which has been dominated by a Labour council for 80 years and also has their powers & funding significantly tied by Westminster remotely equates to Westminster’s punishing legislation which has been proven to breach human rights convinces me you have absolutely zero sense of proportion, and I finally realise why you have a reputation as a troll on this site.
I give people three chances to prove themselves, and yours ran out a long time ago.
Duggie,
Before I/you go can you answer this please…
As the Unionist parties do not think we share the UK pound then we cannot have a share in the 1.3T£ debt. UK Treasury has already said they are solely liable for it.
That is fine by me. We just set up a S£ and build a new economy and after a few years we may join the Euro if we vote for it.
However, RUK £ and economy could face very serious difficulties if the Unionist decide to down this route. So not really advisable for rUK or Scotland really.
Just how much UK debt do you think we should pay if there is no CU? Zero?
Because we wouldn’t be forced to adhere to Westminster’s ruinous policies as an independent nation. You know, the policies that resulted in a £1.5+ trillion debt, an aircraft carrier with no aircraft, a High Speed Rail system that will only save 20 minutes on the average journey.
I would ask you what your solution to Westminster’s monstrous legislation, policies and actions would be, but that would imply I care. I’m done too.
@ Duggie
It is easier to get a new audience than to get new material, as they say. So why don’t you move on again?
Taranaich – I do hope you are one of those vile cybernats that will be seiously involved in running the new Scotland, I love you.
add an ‘r’
The most interesting thing about this is the 2-3 minute delay after they left his front door. Who did he phone?
Here’s Duggie on the train(he’s the one with the badges)
link to youtube.com
Dr, I bow to your supreme Doctorness.
Don’t read Duggie’s post – life’s too short.
Cameron B not sure if you were testing him or not re currency and sterling in particular. 🙂
Just in case anyone is unaware (apologies if preaching to the converted) that BoE notes do NOT have sterling printed on them. However, all Scottish notes DO have sterling on them because for every £ issued by Scottish banks there is £ lodged with BoE in a mixture of BoE notes and current account. Same applies to NI notes – found it on BoE website some months ago.
Free at 63!
Just a bit. The wee sweary was indeed a bit of a guddle. 😉
Guddle, as in fishing. 🙂
Is that you using your fingers again CameronB?
You’re gonna get us both banned Paula. 🙂
Darling CameronB we will be dancing soon after midnight on the !8th of September, as long as you keep your fingers under control.
@taranaich,
Good post but you missed out an aircraft carrier – there will be two white elephants without any aircraft for the foreseeable future. The F35-B development has been quite problematic in particular and may continue in that fashion for some time.
So we will not be able to punch beyond our weight for quite a while with both aircraft carriers – in both worlds !
Daily Record is appalling for ignoring Britnat abuse whilst making out mild Cybernat Abuse as something from hell. I kept sending them link to link to twitter.com everytime they mentioned about Cybernat abuse asking why they never wrote anything about the real vile abuse we get….I was blocked and still they don’t mention it. Folk should keep that link above and anytime anyone mentions abuse from Yes…..show them the real vile abuse from Britnats and from English folk in south insulting Scots in a real bigoted way,all on this twitter page where folk RT the abusive tweets.
Cameron B: 🙂
@Graeme Menzies
no need.
We are going to get rid of all that bowing and forelock tugging shit in a free Scotland !
Aww, shucks!
God almighty, TWO of the largest, most expensive ships built in Britain that aren’t fit for purpose!?! And people complain about the Edinburgh trams?!?
Taranaich 🙂
So the ban-hammer finally came down. At last. He had to be countered but it was taking up too much of everyone’s time.
He couldn’t even spell “superseded” either.
So how long before the next incarnation? Should I start a sweepstake?
@Robert Peffers
Aye, that’s what I meant but yours was more eloquently put. lol
@ alistair 7.41pm
Thank you very much for the link to PQ3
@taranaich
To be fair to the Tories – they do intend to mothball/scrap/sell the redundant second carrier “Prince of Wales” (Quite an appropriate name!?) as they cannot afford to buy the planes and operate it.
However Admiral Zumba needs two as it will leave one of the “both worlds” beyond our punching range.
Who was responsible for ordering these £12B white elephants? Brown and Darling in 2007.
I noticed that John McTernan was being given a forum on BBC Scotland last night to spread more of his poison. A nasty piece of work is this man.
Was told to ‘p–s-off when leafleting in Nairn and by someone I know to be a respectable member of the community. I was on the public footpath at the time too. It’s not nice and that small incident stuck with me for a few days.
Also shouted down in the High Street by a No campaigner in Nairn during one of the stall events – would not talk about things reasonably, even though he approached the stall, not me approach him (I already knew of him and No, it was not the famous ‘Nigel’. What were his motives in approaching the stall – confrontation? A gentleman in his 60s too. He then shouted at us from across the road.
Why the anger I have wondered? Because it is real anger and hatred in some instances too. Even a friend of mine who works for Network Rail and has huge amounts to gain from an Indy Scotland is so anti he cannot discuss it without becoming riled. I think the Yes campaign is seriously challenging long held beliefs about the union which are becoming harder to hold on to the more information comes to light. These folk has climbed so far up their ladders that to climb back down is going to be very difficult for them. So anger is their only defense mechanism because there is no sane or rational argument they can marshal to make a reasoned debate.
BTW, I am delighted to be the Nigel in Nairn that is campaigning for Yes – balance out the other one that drew so much attention to himself last weekend. 😀
link to nairnyes.wordpress.com
Years ago I got my SNP councillor to take a look at a local issue outside my house. Within minutes the street’s “nutter” was at his doorstep in his football shirt shouting abuse.
Stopped. Stared. Then he got the idea and went back inside.
@Nigel – Well done Nigel their anger is what will destroy them
Your arse in parsely!…I’d began to believe it was just me and my family that said this going by the looks even fellow Scots give me.
Can i get an update on “Duggie” the wee growler. He proports to be a YES voter …. Has this been proven false yet. As he seems to be a bit of a wind up, let alone a distraction. Not to mention the several other pseudonymss some of the you have spotted him/her under.
Cognitive Dissonance?
I find that People from down south really heavily believe we are “subsidised” by Ing-gerlund. You can visibly see them stop processing information when you inform them, they look deflated and angry when being told that, well, that it’s simply not true.
My granny my very docile devout granny shocked me recently when i opened a dialogue about independence. She said ill be voting No and i dont want to here any of this nonsense, if there is a YES vote i’m moving to England. oh and i don’t trust that Alex Salmond. My Welsh grandfather, also a no voter….but i was told he sat watching the message from Wales you tube clip over and over whilst my granny stormed out the room.
I’m sure someone much cleverer-like than me can tell me the psychological name for this speed to anger from UKOK, the red mist as it’s been called. Cognitive disonance?
Muzzle the frigging Dug.
Every ex-Commonwealth country that wrested Independence from the Monarchy and Westminster had their Currency backed by the £.,Shilling etc., backed by Westminster, the Treasury, the Bank of ENGLAND, but somehow – in a fit of pure spite-
Scotland will be excluded from Historic Precedence???
Further
Who was it that supported the Ausralian Currency in 1906 and provided Military equipment (rusted and beyond it`s sell-by date) and boats that barely floated – as a navy.
Who was it supplied backing for NZ.
Kenya, Nyasaland,Malawi etc – ex-Commonwealth countries all over Africa, plundered of their mineral rights which were anything but COMMON or WEALTH reaped or raped from the poor people who actually lived and died in their own countries.
Sound similar to poor wee Scotland?
Incidentally, during those years waiting for Scotland`s Independence to be ratified – Scotland will still be a member of the EU and we, as a nation, can exploit these historic precedences within the EU Courts of Law and via the EU Courts of Human Rights.
Gi`e us a fucking brek.Put a choker on the slabbering Dug.
Further again
What about Cyprus?
Half the island was owned by Greece – a member of the EU.
The other half of Cyprus is owned by Turkey – not a member of the EU.?
Surprisingly, Greece became a member of the EU – Long before it`s half-satellite island of Cyprus acceded.
Zero Central Bank in Cyprus – before or after Accession – to EU membership in the early 1990`s.
Come on guys, we don`t need to try too hard to eliminate idiots like this rabid Dug, who, like the rest of BT are selective in their choices of Facts.
No Currency Union. The Horror, The Horror!
Which means no debt either. Happy smiley face!
Don’t feed the troll
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