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Wings Over Scotland


Vote Yes to live longer

Posted on May 04, 2014 by

To cheer you up a bit, we thought you might like to see a couple of rather curious pieces from this weekend’s right-wing press. 300 years of the Union have infamously left Scotland with the lowest life expectancies in the UK, as illustrated in particularly stark fashion by some maps published a couple of years ago in the Guardian:

guardianlifeexpectancy

But what can be done about it?

It turns out the answer is pretty straightforward.

stress

And there was support from an even more unexpected source too.

sunmensch

Not our words, readers. But a clear message: vote No and die early.

114 to “Vote Yes to live longer”

  1. adrian brown says:

    Shrewd analysis as ever, Sir.

    Reply
  2. Alex Grant says:

    Nice one Stu. With these comments and the Sunday Herald editorial are we near the ‘tipping point’?

    Reply
  3. galamcennalath says:

    We in the Yes camp are well aware that we’ll be happier after independence, so nice to know we’ll be healthier too. Great endorsement of independence from Prof Mike Lean

    Reply
  4. rab_the_doubter says:

    Bugger me, Louise Mensch said that!! – the tide is really starting to turn. Wonder what’s next, Katie Hopkins flaunting a Saltire?

    When obviously right wing supporters of the union can see the truth and bring themselves to acknowledge it the battle is nearly won.

    Reply
  5. Lesley-Anne says:

    Wonder how these comments are going down in Better Together HQ, not too well I’ll bet. 🙂

    Reply
  6. Tattie-bogle says:

    Better vote no so ye don’t have to worry about your pension.The unionist are turning into the ayeeeeeaa Bird it had one wing bigger than the other,flew in ever decreasing circles till it disappeared up it own arse shouting ayeeeeeaa

    Reply
  7. AnneDon says:

    I found myself agreeing with Louise Mensch in this article, and was starting to feel dirty. However, at the end, she reverted to type with the “rUK subsidises Scotland” myth, so my self-respect was saved!

    Reply
  8. pictishbeastie says:

    As a drunk who’s just celebrated 25 years of sobriety I support ANY move that will help to deal with the chronic drunkenness that’s endemic in our culture.

    Reply
  9. heedtracker says:

    The fact that map is England green for longer life and Scotland and Wales are red is just spectacular. Die young, stay British.

    Reply
  10. Laura H says:

    Is it just me or does Ms Mensch contradict herself? In the opening salvo she tells us that Salmonds ratings are dropping in Scotland (are they??) and that the No campaign are pulling ahead in the polls, then further down she tells us that the Yes vote has been gathering steam for months. I know I get easily confused, but come on Lou, which one is it?? Considering the No campaign has never actually been behind in the polls, and they are slowly dropping percentage points, whilst Yes is on the up, can someone please explain to my poor befuddled brain how that equates to No pulling ahead?

    Actually, ken whit? Dinnae bother. I’m not actually interested in her twisted logic anyways.
    I’m away to open a bottle of Bells.

    Reply
  11. proudscot says:

    Actually Alex Salmond didn’t say what Mensch claims. He said you couldn’t promote whisky from a nation “with a drink problem.” Strange how almost everything the FM says is in some way twisted out of shape and then usually used against him … or maybe not!!! The unionist hacks seem to work on the premise either to misquote him or if they can’t manage that, they just smear him.

    Reply
  12. dave says:

    the sooner the better we go independence the better it will be we need full time jobs that is going to last more than 7 months of a year better child care and better rules at the DWP ex and have better and fair pensions in this country and also we keep the scottish pound i dont care what westminster says on this bedroom tax it is against the human rights acts as will refuse to pay it

    Reply
  13. heedtracker says:

    “Nobody ever asks the English what we think” oh christ

    Reply
  14. msean says:

    Tories fur Indy starting up or something? 🙂

    Reply
  15. cath says:

    The Times isn’t a paper I read often but it does appear from what I have read to have been trying for a bit of balance and to at least be open to arguments. That’s all I really want from a paper.

    Reply
  16. Twenty14 says:

    Come on you techo guys out there – get the hitler spoof vid on Youtube showing Blair/Darling/Cameron/Osborne ( choice optional )finding out about the Sunday Herald

    Reply
  17. Alfresco Dent says:

    This has definitely been one of our better days.

    Reply
  18. Jim Thomson says:

    @msean 7:45pm

    they’re already out there spreading the message. Well worth a read. Not the same bile and crud spouted from Westminster.

    link to wealthynation.org

    Reply
  19. heedtracker says:

    We also dont need cheering up Rev. This is great fun too. Raging hypocrites that will make even the BBC in Scotlandshire blush, not. link to archive.today
    On teamGB media bias the Graun sayeth “Neither the Scotsman nor Herald editors are thought to have taken a final view.”
    and

    “The other London-based papers, traditionally more closely tied to political allegiances or perspectives, are likely to be sceptical or hostile about independence. The Guardian, recently critical in its leaders of the Scottish government’s case, has not yet decided, nor has the Observer, its Sunday sister paper.

    Reply
  20. Les Wilson says:

    O/T but related
    Watching Gary Robertson on Politics Scotland this morning, he tried in is usually sneaky way to get a representative of the YES to say something wrong. However, the lady ( sorry did not catch her name, but have seen her before )

    He brought up the Northern Irish issue, in regards to what Trimble was “supposed to have said.

    Well she put his nose in a sling, she had watched the interview and knew exactly what was said. She put him right in his place and lambasted the BBC for their onerous comments.
    He was going to say something and she informed him the comment is still on the BBC website. Obviously he could not argue about that right there and then, she got him.

    Other than that, the rest of the discussion on various issues was almost, dare I say it, fair! A slight change in attitude maybe? ( slight! I do not want to go overboard! )

    Reply
  21. JLT says:

    That’s rather disturbing. Do they know something about the personnel serving in the navy at Plymouth and Portsmouth? Everywhere around both ports for miles and miles is green …except in the docks!

    And what the hell is going on in Brighton? Hmmmm …disturbing practices, I fear. Say no more.

    How very strange!

    Reply
  22. heedtracker says:

    link to archive.today Progressive liberal Guardian says they’re undecided. I think that a lot of these media companies have just realised that a nation is watching them do their bettertoghetherist thang .

    Reply
  23. Jim Thomson says:

    @Les Wilson 8:00pm

    It simply demonstrates that starting with a seed lie leads to growth of that lie and it becomes increasingly difficult to keep on top of the twists and turns that ensue.

    If they’d only spout the truth in the first place without attempting to spin it they wouldn’t have the problem of inadequate research of the earlier lies. What has happened to “modern” journalism? A bunch of rank amateurs.

    Poor research (if they bother at all), poor language skills (leading to many misunderstandings),generally LAZY approach to preparing the scripts for the newsreaders. I’m pretty certain that the newsreaders have little or no editorial control over what’s appearing on their teleprompters. If they do, shame on them all.

    Reply
  24. msean says:

    @Jim Thomson

    Thanks for the link,been reading a couple of their articles.

    Reply
  25. Jim Thomson says:

    @msean you’re very welcome 🙂

    Reply
  26. alexicon says:

    @Les Wilson.

    That Lady was Kate Higgins from burdzeyeview.

    Reply
  27. Camz says:

    For me, one of the tipping points was the decision to farm out the e-cigarettes to chemists. An opportunity for smokers to shift to something else, and the government in Westminster is thinking cash before health.

    Reply
  28. jimnarlene says:

    As “stair heed” might say, I’m astonished.

    Reply
  29. Yongibongi says:

    Fine. Good. But Louise Mench??!!??

    Reply
  30. Democracy Reborn says:

    But at least if we make it to pension age before we die:-

    “Britain’s pension shame : UK state pensions are the LOWEST in Europe – even Slovenia and Slovakia give their old people more”!
    (Daily Mail online headline, 27/11/13)

    UKOK indeed!

    Reply
  31. Findlay Farquaharson says:

    u-kok, nob orders, they are like something from a carry on movie.

    Reply
  32. Paula Rose says:

    Its been carrying on for an awful longtime, many carry on jokes rely on them.

    Reply
  33. handclapping says:

    Evidently conditions are not the same in Dover and Durness but Westminster favours the Procrustean bed and we get a one size fits all solution for salaries, pensions and benefits; except of course for London who get more without even asking.

    The benefits system is basically that from Beveridge in 1941 looking at the problems of “Squalor, Ignorance, Want, Idleness, Disease” from the 30s and in true Westminster style has been tinkered with ever since so now there is nobody, and I do include IDS, who understands the purpose of the law let alone its interactions.

    What we are getting now is a computerised GIGO that will undoubtedly end up with IDS in court for breaking the law and having to get his Westminster pals of all 3 parties to pass a correcting law on the basis of there but for the grace of not being in office this Buggins turn go I.

    What we need is a proper debate and concerted action on the purpose and implementation of a social security system (not benefits) that suits us from Kelso to Kinlochbervie and can be suplemented where conditions so require as in the Calton.

    Will we get such from Westminster? Are we more likely to get such from our own Scottish Parly? You decide but you need to vote Yes to hand our Parliament the powers.

    Reply
  34. X_Sticks says:

    The Yes Mobile will be in Turra the morra drop in fur a cuppa.

    On Turriff High Street

    I’ll be there with daft X_Sticks hat on!

    pic.twitter.com/6r0KqwPFMb

    Reply
  35. Marcia says:

    Yes we have the lowest pensions in Europe. Something I mention at the pensioners club I go to once a week. We could do far better when Independent.

    Saw a link to this video from Yes Windaes.

    link to youtube.com

    Reply
  36. North Chiel says:

    Listening to northbound 2 earlier today, and the
    Sunday “phone in” on the “ally Bally”show’ I was
    Disgusted with the repeated assertion from the
    Host that the FM had stated that “Scotland was a
    Nation of drunks” .i would have thought that this
    Broadcaster/journalist would have at least reviewed
    The original spoken words of our First minister before
    “Parroting ” the twisted smear headlines of the London
    Media ,and besmirching the good name of
    Our elected leader
    Shame on you sir! I would expect this from London centric
    Journalists/media ,not a north east “local”

    Reply
  37. Calgacus MacAndrews says:

    @Democracy Reborn

    The No Borders leader is the NOB HEAD.

    Reply
  38. Lesley-Anne says:

    Sorry I’m O/T here, but I’ve just read that a 23 year old man has been reported to the Procurator Fiscal over the tying a dog to a tree and setting it on fire in Kirkcaldy on 25th April.

    link to tinyurl.com

    There is, in my view only ONE punishment fit for this b*****d and this comes from the old “eye for an eye” method of making punishment fit the crime. So my idea is that this individual is tied to a tree and set on fire himself. This is the only punishment that befits the perpetrator of this horrific crime!

    Reply
  39. CameronB Brodie says:

    Lesley-Anne
    Don’t talk crap.

    O/T

    It looks like the cronyism between the City and Westminster, is now completely out of control.

    link to thebureauinvestigates.com

    And while that is going on, drone strikes are up.

    link to dronewars.net

    Reply
  40. Croompenstein says:

    I’ve just read that a 23 year old man

    Can’t even think of an appropriate adjective for this creep but he aint a man

    Reply
  41. Twenty14 says:

    @ Cameron B – spit it out, say what you mean man 🙂 🙂

    Reply
  42. CameronB Brodie says:

    Sorry Lesley-Anne, but I wasn’t comfortable with that comment. Just letting off, nothing sinister. Honest. 😉

    Reply
  43. The Man in the Jar says:

    I think we are well enough into the twilight zone to go off topic.

    I came across this video quite by accident. It is a BBC production and doesn’t seem biased (I didn’t pay that much attention to the audio)

    It is A.S. N.S. A.C. A.D. & J.L. “As they were” I have seen old footage of A.S. but not so much of N.S.prior to this. as for A.C. who cares? But a young radical A.D. with the faded Levi shirt black hair and a beard brought a snigger.

    I always assumed that J.L. was always “like that” but here is a fresh faced young J.L. She hasn’t changed a bit still a torn-faced git. Moaning about everything and its all somebody elses fault. And watch out for M. Curran sporting the Deirdre Barlow look. Oh Dear!

    If nothing else it is an amusing half hour.

    link to youtube.com

    Reply
  44. Paula Rose says:

    If we bring up children who will do what Lesley-Anne highlights then we have to look at ourselves. This is much easier when we can see each other.

    Reply
  45. Democracy Reborn says:

    Stu,

    Is there a reason why posts of even modest length aren’t going through? Tried about 5 today – no success.

    Reply
  46. Fireproofjim says:

    O/T
    SH “Yes” declaration was on main news BBC a few minutes ago, then same on Scottish News. Great stuff.
    Now I think we should suggest to Robert Murdoch’s News Corp that they support Independence in the Scottish Sun.
    Murdoch has Scottish Ancestry, and no reason to support the Westminster establishment and he could well like to poke them in the eye after the News of the World saga, and they might well increase sales.
    We don’t have to like the paper. It would be a means to an end.
    I will contact News Corp in London, but don’t have an email address for the New York office.

    Reply
  47. joe kane says:

    Even arch-Tory Louise Mensch can see the material benefits of small nations governing their own affairs but not, apparently, the lefty-liberal Guardianista latte slurpers at Islington Towers. Says it all really about the Guardian’s faux-progressive credentials.

    Reply
  48. Paula Rose says:

    @ Democracy Reborn – democracy reborn, suddenly being a nation is the new game in town. Maybe the joyful new commentators are swamping our lengthy discourses with their short outbursts of exuberance?

    Reply
  49. rab_the_doubter says:

    The Man in The Jar
    I watches that when it was broadcast. I thought it was a tawdry cheap attempt at slagging off AS/NS. Everyone else featured on it seemed to get an easy ride though.

    Reply
  50. Albaman says:

    Rev , O / T but have a look at the way B.B.C. Scotland handled the news regarding the Sunday Herald ‘s new political outlook, (on Sunday’ s reporting Scotland that is), while the voice over is telling about the Sunday Herald, you see a hand take out from a newsstand a Sunday Herald, but before the voice over is Finnished the hand puts the paper back into the news rack, not very subtle eh?, for me that is the nail in the B.B.C. s coffin.

    Reply
  51. rab_the_doubter says:

    FireproofJim,
    I don’t think we want any association with murder and his brand of ‘Journalism’. The Sun is poison.

    Reply
  52. rab_the_doubter says:

    That should have read Murdoch. Dan you predictive text.

    Reply
  53. Twenty14 says:

    Rev – how about a small article about what the Labour party stood for ” then ” and what it stands for ” now ” . There’s still a huge amount of Labour supporters who won’t back down, no matter what, until , maybe, we highlight exactly why they supported Labour and what Labour supports now.

    Reply
  54. The Man in the Jar says:

    @Lesley-Anne

    Couldn’t agree more. It happened in Kirkcaldy. I was visiting a friend who lives near Kinghorn a couple of weeks ago, we had to take shelter in Morrisons supermarket because of the huge gang fight going on in the car park.(The fair was on)

    There was a spate of dog thefts in the Inverkeithing area a couple of years ago. The perpetrators were selling them on to dog fighters to use as “bait” dogs. The thefts included two ten year old Westies belonging to a lady in her seventies who as a result had to be hospitalised.

    Cameron B. Dont talk crap!

    Peace!

    Reply
  55. Bevrijdingsdag says:

    @Lesley-Anne 10:45pm

    Would you be willing to light the match and watch a 23 year old (obviously no right in the heid) burn to death?

    Don’t mean to offend, but c’mon…

    Reply
  56. Paula Rose says:

    I don’t think CameronB was talking crap.

    Reply
  57. dadsarmy says:

    Well, as I’ve been saying (posting!) for over 2 years:
    “The Truth, the Whole Truth, and Nothing but the Truth”.

    As well as other things talking to NOs, I find they know for sure that there will be uncertainties, but really really hate being told that the uncertain is – certain.

    Time for YES and the Scottish Government to face the uncertainties, and indeed welcome them.

    This probably needs rewording a bit, but you get the jist!

    Reply
  58. Norma Morrison says:

    You all seem very smug and superior. But do’nt forget it was Briton who got rid of slavery and spread out domocrasy in the world. News flash – our parlament is the Queen Mother of Parlaments. Stop been so negative. We have a lot to celibrate in this nation of our’s.

    Reply
    • Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Not our education system, evidently.

      Reply
  59. Patrician says:

    JLT@8:04pm

    I lived in Plymouth for quite a few years and I can tell you that the area in red is Devonport. It is a rundown, dumping ground for all “undesirables” and others down on their luck. Unfortunately, poverty is everywhere and the poor souls who live there have no choice but whether it is the blue tories or red tories that shaft them.

    Reply
  60. Twenty14 says:

    @ Lesley-Anne – I know were your heart is but I lost my Father and also my dog – big, big difference

    Reply
  61. dadsarmy says:

    @rab_the_doubter

    A Spice Girls Reunion with a Saltire plastered bus and wearing skimpy Saltire outfits. That might even persuade my NO voting daughter! (of whom I’m proud by the way).

    Reply
  62. mr thms says:

    O/T

    link to nationalcollective.com

    “A Formal Complaint To The BBC

    Dear BBC, We’re writing to submit a formal complaint regarding a lack of balance from your coverage of the “No Borders” campaign launch. We are dismayed that this criticism is even necessary, however the coverage from the BBC of the newly established “No Borders” campaign has been disproportionate, unbalanced and failed to meet basic standards of journalistic criticism, highlighting an overall trend in the independence debate coverage. We will set out the reasons for our criticism and invite you to respond.”

    continues…

    “We need your help to take our movement to communities across Scotland. Please donate what you can”

    “Yestival – Summer of Independence”

    “40% funded – 29 days left”

    Reply
  63. gordoz says:

    @Albaman

    Yeah the wife and myself spotted that too

    Very subtle stuff (not)

    Reply
  64. CameronB Brodie says:

    The Man in the Jar
    Totally. I’m just narky. I’m not a dog owner but I think I’m human. I’m sure Lesley-Anne has had worse on her nose, and I hold no ill feeling.

    Sorry again Lesley-Anne.

    Reply
  65. Lesley-Anne says:

    Bevrijdingsdag says:

    @Lesley-Anne 10:45pm

    Would you be willing to light the match and watch a 23 year old (obviously no right in the heid) burn to death?

    Don’t mean to offend, but c’mon…

    In this case Bev yes I would. There are some crimes that really stick in my craw and this utterly despicable crime is one of them. There is absolutely no excuse for what this person did.

    Maybe I’m just getting a wee bit long in the tooth these days but sometimes certain crimes make my blood boil, even more so when the perpetrator gets what can only be described as a gentle slap on the wrist!

    I’m not so sure I’d agree with your assessment that he was/is not right in the heid. I believe that this *ahem* stunt, for want of a better name, was purely for self gratification. Dogs like every animal that is kept as a pet deserve the right to life and none of them deserve to be killed like this poor Staffie was.

    If this individual was the owner of the dog and he could no longer afford to keep it then all he had to do was contact the RSPCA and they’d help him out.

    Reply
  66. Morag Graham Kerr says:

    Oh not you too. The RSPCA doesn’t operate in Scotland. You need the SSPCA.

    Reply
  67. dadsarmy says:

    @X_Sticks

    YES mobile, LOL. Mmm, might be worth co-ordinating that in places with the mobile bank (and library) visits.

    Reply
  68. Fireproofjim says:

    @rab_the_doubter
    Re Murdoch press. I agree – not a nice bunch, but, as Churchill said when the Nazis invaded Russia and Stalin became an ally, ” if Hitler invaded Hell I would at least say a few nice words in the House about Satan.”
    The Sun is read by many non-political people in Scotland. Their votes are crucial.

    Reply
  69. Mary Bruce says:

    Sorry guys, if you want our new independent Scotland to be the kind of place where you string up criminals to trees and set fire to them, then I don’t want to be a part of it.

    Reply
  70. Paula Rose says:

    As a smaller nation we will find that our strength comes from supporting each other. Obviously all our faiths in Scotland support this, and rabid atheists like myself will share a cup of tea – this is about our children.

    Reply
  71. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Lesley-Anne –

    Sorry pal, but you are well out of order.

    Are you seriously condoning the immolation of fellow human beings? Worse – you’re calling for a specific person (as yet anonymous) to be summarily executed by methods ‘we’, as a society, abandoned centuries ago?

    Please have a wee think about what you’ve posted here.

    You’re opening a jumbo-sized can of worms, and others will pounce on the outpourings. I understand your anger and disgust, but we’ll all have to get used to dealing with those feelings in the months ahead.

    Reply
  72. Lesley-Anne says:

    Oops! Sorry Morag, I knew what I meant unfortunately my fingers didn’t. My excuse and I’m sticking to it. 😉

    I don’t want this topic to take over this thread so I’ll just finish my thoughts by saying that I understand where you are coming from Twenty14 and I agree that there is a big difference between losing a family member and losing a pet. However, as TMitJ says:

    There was a spate of dog thefts in the Inverkeithing area a couple of years ago. The perpetrators were selling them on to dog fighters to use as “bait” dogs. The thefts included two ten year old Westies belonging to a lady in her seventies who as a result had to be hospitalised.

    The loss of the dogs had a severe effect on this poor 70 year old. In this case it was clearly as bad as losing a a relative. To those who think I’m being a wee bit insane over this I’m sorry you don’t feel the same as me but I respect your view.

    To anyone who has never had a cat or dog and lost them then you are lucky. I have had dogs in my life and it has always been the worst day of my life when they have died. Yes they are part of the family, and in my case they have almost behaved like humans in their ability to understand our needs and feelings. So to lose a pet that has been as close as this is extremely traumatic, about as close to the feelings of losing a human family member without actually doing so.

    Reply
  73. Democracy Reborn says:

    @Mary Bruce

    Mary – agree.
    I’m sure there’s a place for having a jurisprudential conversation about killing dogs & criminals, but is this really the place? We’re so off topic. Let’s remember that there are lots of undecided voters reading this site who look at the comments for relevant info.

    Reply
  74. The Man in the Jar says:

    I dont know the origins of this but I do believe it to be very true.

    “You can judge a country by the way it treats its elderly and its animals.

    Reply
  75. Peter says:

    I’d help burn the scum to death too.

    Some people have forfeited the right to life. Things that abuse animals need to be exterminated.

    Reply
  76. LizM says:

    Unfortunately the RSPCA get so much coverage in the MSM that most Scots don’t realise that in Scotland it is the SPCA. After Independence that hopefully will change.

    Reply
  77. CameronB Brodie says:

    OFFS please focus.

    Reply
  78. LizM says:

    Sorry that should be SSPCA.

    Reply
  79. Paula Rose says:

    @ Lesley-Anne, I love being part of the wings community, a big part of that is that I can come here and rage – then someone introduces another angle, and then before you know it you are part of a re-vitalised country. Register dogs – in an Independent Scotland you will have the support of the people. In the UK you will have the owners of packs of hunting hounds decrying the waste of public money.

    Reply
  80. caz-m says:

    I also noticed Glen Campbell of BBC Scotland was still roaming Europe for some Foriegn Minister to say something negative about Scotland’s entry into the EU.

    How long has he been trying to get someone to agree with him that Scotland will not be able to become a new member state of th EU.

    He practically tells the Ministrs what to say.

    He will keep hunting Europe on behalf of Better Together looking for that EU Minister who will tell him what he wants to hear.

    And the best laugh about the whole thing is, WE are paying him to do it through our TV License.

    Reply
  81. David Smith says:

    Sorry folks. As a dog lover, I’m getting where Lesley Anne is coming from on this one. Whereas I’d much like to give this inhumane little shit a taste of his own medicine, I can see it wouldn’t go down well. Why not just tie him to a tree in a remote wood in the middle of winter and just leave him.
    He’ll have plenty of time to ponder his actions before succumbing to the inevitable.
    I’m afraid there are some ‘people’ I’m not interested in trying to understand.

    Reply
  82. Paula Rose says:

    O / T – I think that’s how its done. Disrupting threads and stuff. Has anyone got a link to Taranaich’s wilderness of peace?

    Reply
  83. The Man in the Jar says:

    Sorry if I went a bit OTT in an earlier comment. Animal abuse is an emotional subject and it can be easy to say something that you don’t mean because you are so angry.

    A bit of background to dog theft. The incident in Inverkeithing involved the theft of seven dogs in one day. Around the same time in Hamilton a badly disabled wee boy was at his front window watching his terrier playing in the front garden. A man walked along the pavement and lent over the fence to clap the dog. He then lifted the dog stuck it under his jacket and ran off. Despite articles in the local press the dog was never found. It is suspected that it was stolen for to be used as a bait dog.

    Bait dogs are typically small dogs as they don’t want the fighting dog to be injured. The bait dog is put into a cage and the fighting dog is encouraged to kill it by tearing it apart. This is to get them used to “the kill”

    I cant imagine how would you feel knowing that your “best friend” had met such an end? It is easy to see how animal cruelty can make people so angry. Part of the problem is that the punishment for these crimes is rather light.

    Reply
  84. David Smith says:

    I think some more modern legislation is required, recognising that animals, although not as sophisticated as humans, have emotions and feelings and can experience pain and terror as humans can. Add to that the very personal connection that those of us with pets are lucky enough to experience and you can see that we need something more than an offence of malicious damage.
    Whilst murder would be excessive, we do need something that reflects the hurt that is caused to the animal and in many cases the owner.
    After all, animal cruelty is often an indicator of psychopathic and potentially homicidal behaviour.

    Reply
  85. manandboy says:

    I had my winning Lottery ticket stolen recently.
    The win was £113 million.
    I reported it to the authorities who traced the ticket
    and discovered the identity of the thief when he tried to claim the money.
    I was asked if I would like to recover the ticket and to press charges.
    But being a Unionist I said No.

    I didn’t want to cause any trouble.

    Reply
  86. Morag says:

    My finger keeps hovering over the keyboard but I draw back. For professional reasons I can’t say anything about the dog.

    I understand where Lesley is coming from, and Stu said the same thing on Twitter. But we don’t have capital punishment in this country and I want it to stay that way. We need to rise above barbarism, no matter what someone may have done.

    Reply
  87. hetty says:

    I see that the thread has changed, and really rightly so. Animal cruelty is intolerable like any kind of cruelty and something that I would like to see with an Independent Scotland are more much stringent controls over animal welfare. It wont happen if its a no vote, the rules are too lax as it is. To stamp out dog baiting etc requires resources and that means money…and education, we ain’t gonna get that with while we have to rely on westminster giving us pocket money while using our countryside for their shooting holidays.

    Our people, flora and fauna, and environment need protecting big style, only a yes vote will enable that to have a chance, otherwise we are f*****d.

    Reply
  88. David Smith says:

    Ach, it’s only money. ????

    Reply
  89. Paula Rose says:

    youtube.com/watch?v=5F44WfZoIN4

    a wee ditty – why we are a part of the future.

    Reply
  90. Jamie Arriere says:

    OT – bitter irony of the title of this post, but sad news that Elena Baltacha has died of liver cancer. She went to school in my nick of the woods while her dad played for St Johnstone, so I’ve always thought of her as a Perth girl, although she lost her accent latterly.

    Her few early years in Kiev in the shadow of Chernobyl won’t have helped. Cruel world.

    Reply
  91. Paula Rose says:

    Och well- it was just me putting up Michael Marra’s alternative anthem.

    Reply
  92. Morag says:

    Animal health and welfare is devolved. Thank goodness. It’s my job. The legislation is recent, and specifically Scottish. It’s a good piece of legislation and I think people should get to know it.

    link to legislation.gov.uk

    Really, this is an example of where devolved powers have allowed us to do a pretty good job.

    Reply
  93. hetty says:

    Morag you are right, capital punishment never works as it can so very easily be misused to say the least.
    Only education and the creation of a more responsible and caring society can minimise if not end the type of dysfunction that leads to such cruelty against living beings. We must keep away from any talk of revenge in any context, it is a wholly destructive stance and has no place in a forward looking Scotland.

    Reply
  94. TJenny says:

    Hi Morag – something I’ve wanted to ask is why we never seem to have the furore in Scotland about badgers, in relation to TB in cattle?

    Reply
  95. Bevrijdingsdag says:

    Nobody’s suggesting animal cruelty should not be severely dealt with, but rather questioning by whom?

    Proud “Rag Doll” owner.

    Reply
  96. Morag says:

    TJenny, the badgers in Scotland don’t have TB. Scotland is officially free of the disease. I have every sympathy with English farmers, but it’s not our problem.

    Reply
  97. TJenny says:

    Morag – interesting. Any idea why our badgers don’t have TB?

    Reply
  98. TJenny says:

    And why is it not heard about more often that we are a Badger TB free country? Och, why am I even asking?

    Reply
  99. David Smith says:

    Hetty, Morag. Thanks. You are of course both right. Whatever went on in this creature’s early life to turn him into the kind of thing that perpetrated this act may well have been preventable and it will be our duty in a new Scotland to focus heavily on the early years of our new generations to both provide a happy start to life and to watch out for problems in individuals before they cause long term damage. I’ll leave the details of how it should be done to those whose profession is in such fields. However, it’s clear that over the last thirty years and probably much further back we have lived in a system that can in too many settings be toxic for those living in it, due to the underlying inhumanity of the British/American way of life. While I’m pretty much incapable of summoning up any kind of caring thought about the perpetrator of this atrocity, I understand that he’s part of a wider ailment in our society that diminishes us all and needs urgently addressed.

    Reply
  100. john king says:

    Norma Morrison says
    “You all seem very smug and superior. But don’t forget it was Britain who got rid of slavery and spread out democracy in the world. News flash – our parlament is the Queen Mother of Parlaments. Stop been so negative. We have a lot to cerebrate in this nation of our’s.”

    link to youtube.com

    Fixed that for you btw

    Reply
  101. john king says:

    Why don’t you read a book Norma, any book,
    maybe you could start with Janet and John and work up to the history of the British empire as seen by the countries Britain “democratized”,
    then when you’ve learnt a thing or several hundred about “SMUGNESS” you can come back and lecture us about how grateful we should be,

    And if your Scottish (I’m convinced you are) why don’t you look at “Stockholm syndrome” see if you fit the description.

    Sorry guys I know you were all making an effort not to feed the troll (I don’t think this one has the brains to know what a troll is)

    Why dont you start with reading about the “Queen Mother of Parlaments” great great great great great great great great great great great granddaddy
    link to en.wikipedia.org

    Reply
  102. john king says:

    manandboy says
    “I had my winning Lottery ticket stolen recently.
    The win was £113 million.”

    Philip Hammond here
    you couldn’t give us a sub could you?

    Reply
  103. john king says:

    James Arriere says
    ” sad news that Elena Baltacha has died of liver cancer.”

    Such sad news I am so sorry for her family god rest her soul.

    Reply
  104. Silverytay says:

    Norma Morrison you might want to google british atrocity’s before you come on here and lecture us .

    Try telling the Boers or Kenyans how good and benevolent the british are .
    There were 27000 Boer women and children who died in british concentration camps during the Boer war .

    The atrocity’s we committed in Kenya came straight out of the gestapo handbook .

    You might also want to google the Amritsar massacre or how the the british state deliberately used famine in India to help keep the natives down .

    Reply
  105. David Smith says:

    I was under the impression that Britain only went active against slavery because it was giving others such as the Americans an economic advantage over them.

    Reply
  106. Morag says:

    TJenny, it may just be good luck we never had TB in our wildlife.

    We more or less eradicated bovine TB in the 1960s. When I was a student in the 1970s I remember being told, we just have to wait for England to get rid of it in the West Country and then it’ll be gone. But they never did. Instead of getting in there feet first to eradicate the last wee pocket, MAAF got complacent and backed off. Not a big problem any more you see.

    Then in 2001 testing stopped because of foot and mouth. Nobody could get on to the farms and anyway they were all too busy. Then after foot and mouth was stamped out, people had to re-stock the slaughtered-out farms. Farms in the Midlands bought stock from the West Country, and brought TB with them. That got into the wildlife there, and disaster followed.

    We’ve always had a more rigorous testing regime in Scotland, and as I said we may just have got lucky. Scotland is officially a free country as regards bovine TB if nothing else! And we have compulsory testing requirements in place to make sure it stays that way.

    As I said, animal health is devolved and Holyrood has generally handled it well. We’ve currently eradicating BVD and the scheme is going well, while DEFRA seems content for England to remain a pest-hole. Animal Health and Welfare legislation is specific to Scotland, and came in in 2006. It’s a good piece of legislation. It’s an area where you can say with truth that devolution has delivered the goods. The example of this one area is one of the many reasons I’m extremely keen on independence, to make sure we keep control.

    Hetty isn’t right when she says the rules are too lax and we need independence to change that. The rules aren’t bad. If they are still too lax (and I think they are as regards the use of snares in particular) we already have the power to fix that. Mike Russell just decided not to.

    Reply
  107. frankieboy says:

    I really wanted the Head of Nob Orders to be called Bobby or Richard.

    Reply
  108. Paula Rose says:

    re the TB, I’ve read that the badgers love maize, a crop we don’t grow this far north. The farmers give the cows supplements, one fed these to the badgers on his land – no TB. I’ve got the link somewhere…

    link to naphillhorticulturalsociety.org.uk

    Reply
  109. Morag says:

    I just read that. Sadly, it’s woo. There has been a phenomenal amount of research done on bovine TB and badgers, and would that it were that simple. It’s not.

    Reply
  110. liz says:

    Re Scotland being a stressed nation – I agree with that.

    I had a discussion some years back with a friend saying that althoigh I didn’t think we were oppressed, we had all the symptoms aof an oppressed nation.

    Reply
  111. Alex. Walker says:

    Prior to the 2011 Holyrood Elections it became a revelation to me and other Glaswegians that the Average Male Lifespan in the Glasgow East Constituency was – 54 years.

    Not many men claiming a State Pension.

    In a Glasgow Constituency virtually Owned by Old Labour and New Labour for over 80 years, the average male lifespan is testament to the old adage – ” Keep them Glum and keep them Dumb, Keep them Poor and hidden in Stoor.”

    John Mason of S.N.P. held the seat as an M.P. for barely enough time to sneeze after a By-Election in Glasgow East before the local electorate CHOSE to revert to abject insanity in support of New Labour and the Brown- Darling Project.?

    When they Vote to be unutterably insane, they show that they have zero respect for themselves, their Parents or their Grandparents. Certainly Zero respect for those few Grand-Fathers who have managed to survive the ministrations of Old and New Labour in Glasgow and Westminster.

    Father, at 54 years old – Rest in Peace – in Glasgow East?

    Independence has few friends in Glasgow East.

    However, during a televised debate hosted by Victoria Derbyshire for B.B.C. in Glasgow I was very impressed by a younger man from that benighted area who showed passion and a fervent desire to change the Glasgow East mind-set.

    The S.N.P. Should have Recruited that man and the young lady who Chose to Change her mind from “no” TO ” YES ” on Nationwide television in an Independence Debate.

    We will only get Change when we Vote for Change.

    Evidently the Voters in Glasgow East demand Poverty and a short Life over any Change. Sad, so Sad.

    Incidentally, I have Never been a Member of Any Political Party. Never.

    Reply
  112. Taranaich says:

    Paula, I’ve put Wilderness of Peace as my click thingy (click the name on comments). If you’re having trouble, here:

    link to wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com

    Reply
  113. Paula Rose says:

    Taranaich, oh, that’s clever!

    Reply


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