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The voice of unity

Posted on September 25, 2016 by

You can see the full unedited Kezia Dugdale interview with Gordon Brewer on today’s Sunday Politics Scotland at this link, so you can verify that the shortened edit below isn’t misrepresenting anything. But if you don’t have time or attention span for the full 20 minutes, this’ll give you the gist without all the desperate waffling.

We think readers will agree that there can no longer be so much as a scintilla of doubt over whether Kezia believes Jeremy Corbyn can lead Labour to victory.


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  1. 25 09 16 18:56

    The voice of unity | speymouth

383 to “The voice of unity”

  1. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Thanks for the Readers Digest version.

    I don’t think I could sat through the full bollox.

  2. jimnarlene says:

    “He has a mandate from the membership”
    He already had that Kez, when you and others tried to oust him.

  3. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Incoherent does not begin to describe her performances.

    She is also developing the Willie Rennie blank look.

  4. Marie Clark says:

    Oh dearie, dearie me lass.

    Full marks to Gordon Brewer for trying, but, it’s not the voters that are dumb. is it?

    Promoted beyond her ability, if that was me, I’d hang my head in shame and resign. But SLAb don’t do shame. A blow lamp widnae colour that brass neck.

  5. Davie Clark says:

    Painful even in the abridged version. Saddest case of cognitive dissonance I’ve seen. Can only end up destroying her.

  6. Calum McKay says:

    As far as damage limitation goes, Kezia dameaged her credibility without limitation.

    What must remaining labour voters make of this performance?

    Time for them to come over to the SNP!

  7. Patrician says:

    Ah but Kez said she does support Jeremy. So we now have a new scientific paradigm, Schrodinger’s Kez, where she is in two states simultaneously; supporting Corbyn and not supporting Corbyn. The answer she will give at any time depends on who asks the question.

  8. Tommy Allan says:

    She makes it very clear that she is only interested in Labour winning at Westminster and that SLab is not autonomous. “The Party”, “The Country”.

  9. HUGH KIRK says:

    I sufferd tho’ 5 minutes of that train wreck then decided to clean out the cat litter tray instead. I found that tending to our cat’s needs a lot more fulfilling and the cat thought so too.

  10. One_Scot says:

    If there are any pollsters wondering, yes I am very satisfied with the performance of the ‘Scottish Labour’ party leader.

    May she continue to show us that the SNP is the only party capable of providing a better future for Scotland.

  11. Onwards says:

    The dishonesty just looks.. dishonest.

  12. bobajock says:

    Honestly – watched with wife this morning and we could have cried laughing at the incompetence on show.

    She is a ball and chain around Labour in Scotland.

    Phew, long may she carry on.

  13. Andy says:

    We have always been at war with Eastasia 🙂

  14. winifred mccartney says:

    Can someone, anyone rescue that poor lassie – its too embarrassing even for labour – she just keeps digging a deeper hole for herself and cannot and will not accept she is talking pure rubbish – her pride in herself that she is right and the whole world is wrong is unbelievable and what cheek to suggest it is wrong to undermine a leader when she and her cronies have done nothing else for the past year. Don’t worry she’ll probably blame that on the snp as well. What labour ever saw in her I cannot imagine – their problem is who could lead the shambles that is labour.

  15. Dr Jim says:

    What’s the problem, what’s wrong with that, seems perfectly acceptable to me and very clear

    In Woger Wabbit World!!

  16. Papadox says:

    The lass is way out of her depth. She is being used by SLAB high head tins as a patsy and the real tragedy is, Kezia can’t see it. The SLAB shot callers are using her to protect their own gravy train.
    You feel like giving her a good shake, and sending her game tae her mammy and daddy. Really very sad, and a very poor reflection on what’s left of the SLAB “leaders”?

  17. Dr Jim says:

    Just to point out this is right up the FMs street, sense of humour wise

    Will we hear those words repeated on thursday by the FM

    I just fall about when the Boss is funny (I’m a groupie)

  18. harry mcaye says:

    No, that can’t be right, she said she was “delighted”.

  19. call me dave says:

    Déjà vu Rev? Not again thanks.

    @Dr Jim 🙂

    Hop it!

    “I’m late for a very important date” said the white rabbit.

    I’m away to see opportunity Knox at the Golf for a while.

  20. Giving Goose says:

    What was on display is sheer utter arrogance.
    This performance really needs to be viewed and understood in those terms.

    Kezia has a view of herself as an elite member of society and she honestly believes that she has the right to dismiss questions with waffle, because questioning her, in Kezia’s view, is not worthy of her position.

    In this respect she is not only a classic Labour politician but a classic careerist Unionist.

    It’s often said by posters on Wings and other contributors that Labour hold the Scottish voters in contempt. That is true but Labour wouldn’t frame it to themselves in those terms.

    From their, Labour’s perspective, they are the Elite, above and beyond scrutiny. That’s why public speaking and media exercises are not working for them. They don’t acknowledge the audience.

    Pure arrogance and part and parcel of Scottish Labours pysche!

  21. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    The only unity that Kezia and the rest of the Blairites are interested in is:

    “We will unite around the Butchers Apron with Rooth and Wullie.”

    SNP Baad, the Union must be protected at all costs to the last Unionist Man, Woman and bullet.

  22. K. A. Mylchreest says:

    I was trying to make sense of her expression, lack of sleep maybe? But my final conclusion involves rabbits and headlights, and that doesn´t end at all well ….

  23. hamish says:

    SLAB has leaders ? I think it was just a pack of would-be-cadres desperate for the jobs that are fact disappearing in politics !

  24. Blackhack says:

    The fact that Jellyfish have survived for 650 million years without having brains is great news for Kezia

  25. Bill says:

    I watched the hole thing speechless. I thought it’d be a 2 min thing, then it went on and on. Kez was allowed to transmit a blind broadcast , nothing more than a party political broadcast. Edit out Gordon Brewer and voila!

    You’ve all been had!

  26. lumilumi says:

    Oh dear…

    I almost feel sorry for Kez, trying to do a job she’s clearly not cut out to do. Desperately trying to put on the smile and spin as she was taught to do, not realising times have moved on.

    She probably knows Labour’s dead in Scotland, all the Yoonies are flocking to the Ruth Davidson party and all the old-fashioned lefties are flocking to the SNP, leaving her “tory-light” party an irrelevance.

    Another instance of how general UK (=English, because of sheer numbers) and Scotland political climate are drifting apart.

    I can respect Tory commentators, whose views I don’t share, for at last being more honest, realist and pragmatic than SLAB and BBC Scotland, who just stick fingers in their ears and go lalalalala, I’m not hearing you, lalalala!

    And they still wonder why they lose elections. Jeez…

  27. Sassenach says:

    Who would have thunk…… on BBC site the only ‘interview’ with Dugdale is one with Nick Eardley ( no sign of the Brewster’s car crash!!).

    But of course I notice the UKIP Diane “Scotland is better with Brexit” interview from a few days ago is still there!!!

    Not that I’m suggesting anything, naturally…!!

  28. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @ K. A. Mylchreest says:

    It is the Willie Rennie glaikit look

  29. Proud Cybernat says:

    You utter, UTTER blithering idiot, Dugdale. Just bloody well RESIGN before you have a bloody mental breakdown or your nails fall out by clinging on too long.

    This is PATHETIC with a capital STUPID. I was cringing at this and I no longer support Labour.

    Scotland needs LEADERS not bloody TROUGHERS.

    Just GO. GO NOW!!!!!

  30. Connor McEwen says:

    Wee KID ON SCOT, [ full of Tanked up bull, Ruth Davidson ] of the do down Scotland Tory party has got to be next.

  31. Dorothy Devine says:

    Sassenach, it is still on BBBCi player under Sunday politics, just scroll along past A.Neil and you’ll find G.Brewer showing Kezia that she is an empty headed numpty.

    Whoever the labour woman interviewed at the end , somebody Boyle or Doyle, said that Scotland voted heavily for the Welsh Wizard – anyone know how true or untrue that is?

  32. David Mills says:

    I sat through the 20 minutes it’s like a well scripted drama you meet the villain of the piece you laugh as foybils & mis-steps but eventually there is only so much shidenfrodder to go around and they look like a rabbit in headlights. It’s done because no matter then what they do or say to try to take back the ground they lost their still that rabbit
    It’s a car crash

  33. call me dave says:

    Looks like the MSM are giving up on the red tories, drawing a veil over the travails of ‘Scottish’ labour and nudging the unwary over to the true blue Unionist Tories.

    Some will shift hopefully to the SNP as the only way out towards a better future.

    @Proud Cybernat

    Moody Blues first hit… Go Now! Bye Bye Deputy Deadwood!

  34. lumilumi says:

    TBF, I have to apologise for my disparaging comment about BBC Scotland above. Gordon Brewer didn’t go easy on poor Kez.

    It was almost like holding politicians to account – something Slabbers aren’t used to. Let’s just see if Ruuthie of the Ruuthie and unionist party gets the same treatment. She certainly deserves it for her lying and misleading the parliament. I doubt it’ll happen, Ruuthie is the last hope of defending the yooonion (as specified by the BBC charter) in Scotland, so expect her to get an easy ride.

  35. Kenlike says:

    How’s the work experience lassie getting on?

  36. Grouse Beater says:

    I can’t speak for other people here, but some days I come out fighting fit, other days I just feel dejected and sad.

    The whole circus of Labour, Tories, and Westminster fill me with foreboding.

    When we protest we’re told to like it or lump it.

    When we assert ourselves we’re told we will be punished; we are lied to day in, day out, even a Scots born ex-prime minister doesn’t see anything wrong in threatening our administration if it tries to implement policies for which it was elected.

    It’s all very sad and depressing.

  37. wee folding bike says:

    In the full version she blamed Tories for all the ills at the beginning and they’re in Westminster so she is blaming Westminster – which she wanted to stay with.

    Then there was some autonomy better than the old autonomy and something about unity.

    Not sure how autonomy and unity go together in this instance. Wouldn’t it be one or the other?

    I think she’s there till May. Nobody else wants the job before then.

  38. Douglas says:

    Re. Kezia vs Brewer:
    The thing that struck me was not Kezia’s lack of consistency and competence -that, sadly is business as usual.
    The thing that stood out was Gordon Brewer’s approach. It was startlingly different to what I expect of a Scottish BBC employee dealing with Scottish Labour.
    Has Brewer lost patience or have the powers that be sent word that Scottish Labour is ‘fair game’? It clearly threw Kezia. She was expecting to get off the hook with evasion and pre-prepared mini speeches. It did not happen.
    Have the BBC given up on Scottish Labour, possibly in favour of a more direct unionist vehicle (the ‘not really Tory’ Ruth Davidson party)?
    If Brewer disappears for a bit it will be clear that it was simply a rush of real journalistic blood to the head, if not there may be a change in tactics happening (still Unionists though!)
    Doubt if anything embarrassing made it to the ‘News’ though
    Thoughts anyone?

  39. davidb says:

    This Coatbridge North stunning victory for Kez got through unchallenged. It is not what it seems at all.

    It was a 4 member constituency. In the 2012 elections Labour won 51.6% of first preferences taking both the first and second seats. The SNP got the other 2 seats on the fifth count ( polling 30.7% of first preferences ).

    At this by election Labour polled 41.7% of first preferences with the SNP now polling 39%. The Labour candidate got elected on the fifth count this time. Hardly a stunning victory.

    The possibly notable result however was the Conservative first preferences. They took only 5.9% in 2012, but 11.3% this time. Granted there was an independent last time and no Green or UKIP.

    These by elections have to be seen in the round. The seats can change hands to the detriment of the representation of the people that proportional voting is supposed to improve.

    I would be inclined to disregard any by election result by any party in a ward unless all the seats are up for grabs. STV kind of fails at by elections. But Labour did much worse, and all the other parties did much better in Coatbridge last week than the headlines suggest. And Buttons victory was an illusion.

  40. Alberta Scot says:

    Don’t listen to them, Kezzie Lass.

    Stay right where you are. Right up to the municipal elections.

    Which raises the disturbing question, is the SNP brainstrust going to sleep walk through this one just like the Scottish election?

    Which put us under the thumb of the creepy little Green guy. And we saw how that’s working out last week.

    So where’s the Nicola-clone mayor of Glasgow candidate? You know, young, dynamic, tomorrow’s guy/gal who looks good on TV.

    And do they have a devious and nasty cybernat cell pumping out the Glasgow Labour (and you can toss in Aberdeen and Edinburgh) sleaze, corruption and cronyism scandals? Like the drip-drip-drip of Hillary Clinton’s e-mail fiasco?

    Thought not. Time to get your eye on the prize, people.

    Having a dingbat like Dugdale on the front benches is one of the SNPs greatest assets.

    The real concern is complacency, comfort and burn-out.

    Which began with the Scottish vote.

    And if I was running the rodeo that Tory Toff Sir Mountain Man would be up there everyday. A doofus like that can’t get enough exposure.

    Just to remind folks what Ruth Davidson really stands for.

  41. crazycat says:

    @ Dorothy Devine at 6.55

    It was stated yesterday that voters in Scotland had supported Smith 58% to 42% for Corbyn, but it turned out that this was based on an opinion poll (which did get the overall result correct to the nearest full percent).

    As far as I can tell, there has been no official “regional” breakdown, and Neil Findlay is claiming that there was no significant difference here. It’s not clear what he’s basing that on, though.

  42. John Jones says:

    it’s always amazed me how Kez can talk for so long without taking a breath. then I realised she breathes through her ears,it’s easy when there’s nothing in between to stop it.

  43. Jim Mitchell says:

    What’s all the fuss about? It’s the same Scottish labour sooking up we have seen for years, they will listen to and
    follow any British party leader who tells them what to do, and given the state of the present Scottish labour party and it’s leader, we can see why they feel the need to be led by someone………anyone!

  44. heedtracker says:

    It looks like the Pacific Quay SLab crew have the knives out for Holyrood Barbie. Fair enough but who to fill the… oh who gives a fcuk. They’re all the red tories and they have had their day.

  45. Capella says:

    Poor Kezia. She could have had a good job in BBC Scotland remember, in 2014.
    I was taught never to mock the afflicted. The kindest thing SLAB could do is to let her retire from leadership and let some other numpty take the reins in the lead-up to the 2017 Local Government final demise of SLAB.

    It’s the Ruth Davidson No Referendum Party we have to tackle now.

  46. Dorothy Devine says:

    Crazycat , thanks for that . I wonder what the real result was!

  47. Capella says:

    O/T interesting map of West of Shetland oil via twitter :

  48. Tinto Chiel says:

    Douglas@7.18: I think the BBC sees The Ruthtastic Party as the last hope for the Union. I suspect BLiS is seen as a liability under Kezia.

    Brewer seemed genuinely exasperated, and no wonder.

    Thank God Kezia is “utterly committed”.

    Makes all the difference.

  49. Auld Rock says:

    I watched it in real time, I managed about 45 seconds before I had to change channel otherwise I’d have thrown something at TV or throw-up, come to think of it probably both. I pity her poor parents good SNP members.

    Auld Rock

  50. Tinto Chiel says:

    Capella @8.04.

    Oh dear, The Curse of Oil just got worse, didn’t it?

    It’s the wrong oil, it’s worthless and it will run out very soon in any case.

    Thank God WM is in charge or we’d be up shit creek.

  51. Fatweegee says:

    she cant even say his name…

  52. ben madigan says:

    @Bugger (the Panda) who said :
    I don’t think I could sat through the full . . . .

    I tried. I couldn’t. I gave up after 5 odd minutes and it was going on for another 15 or something!!

  53. Capella says:

    :@ Tinto Chiel – yes – I’ve just recently discovered that, if you link to enough interesting tweeters, you get some interesting tweets!
    Pity about all that oil, as you say. We’re doomed.

  54. HandandShrimp says:

    I am sure this must be the SNP’s fault. They must take some responsibility for uniting the Labour Party


  55. yesindyref2 says:

    That’s the Hebrides out of action, tehcnical fault caused pontoons crash, which means North (and South) Uist not getting fish off, supplies on, or gas, as the Hebrides has an open deck, whereas the Finlaggan which will go on is closed and can’t take gas. Also has a “dicky” mezzanine so often has reduced spaces.

  56. Capella says:

    For instance – here’s a fascinating tweet from Iain Macwhirter attending a Momentum Conference which eclipses the Labour conference in Liverpool. Echoes of Indyref:

    SLAB is way behind the curve.

  57. sinky says:


    Very interesting article from Iain MacWhirter in to-day’s Sunday Herald

    Also speculates on how Scotland might become independent without the need for a referendum.

    It will be interesting to see how the right wing MSM treats Dugdale’s car crash or reports the latest Sunday Times poll that puts SNP on 50% and Labour on 17%.

  58. Austin Flynn says:

    She handled the interview brilliantly considering the pickle she had got herself into previously, I suppose it is the sign of a budding politician. I was impressed with her tenacity in refusing to be “bullied” and intimidated. She is fighting for her life in the labour party and given good guidance she will do well. She seems to have a thick skin in brushing off the personal smears from many SNP activists. A lot to learn but I imagine a quick learner.

  59. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Kezia Dugdale
    Never mind, tomorrow’s another day. Tell you what, why not support the people of Scotland’s “Right to Development”? Everyone’s a winner then, apart from Westminster and HMG of course. Obviously, failure to do so is to act counter to international law. I’m sure you wouldn’t want to go down in history as a criminal and as an isolated fragment of English colonialism’s rearguard in Scotland, would you? What’s that you say? How Fabian of you, frankly.

    “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

    “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

  60. Dave Greig says:

    Jezzer must be cock a hoop to have an intellectual colossus like Kezia in his corner. It must be such a relief that she isnt not, not opposing him any more.

  61. Campbell Mcinally says:

    And queue Anas Sarwar … if he s got the bottle for it this time.Sorry Kez you re out of here. Don’t let the door hit your arse

    on the way out.

  62. CameronB Brodie says:

    Giving Goose
    Re. BLiS___d’s elitist outlook. They haven’t done their homework on Hegel, so are unable differentiate between slaves and autonomous human beings. They do not respect Scot’s as autonomous humans with associated human rights, so are unable to become self-aware of themselves. It’s in their Fabain, British nationalist DNA I’m afraid.

    No need to worry about undue suffering of dumb beasts though, natural selection will sort them out.

    Simples. 😉

  63. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Austin Flynn (8.55) –


    Are you being serious?

    I don’t know what she got up to in the States, but it seems she did a crash course chutzpah/hard-core smiling.

    If she even bothers turning up for FMQs next week I’ll buy you a pint and a packet of Cadbury’s Buttons.

    She’s finished.

  64. Tinto Chiel says:

    Capella and G4jeepers: forgot to thank you for those links.

    Most instructive.

    No voters can’t say they didn’t know. All they have to do is listen to The Rev and your links.

    Are we nearly there yet?

  65. Tinto Chiel says:

    Austin Flynn, welcome as a new poster (I think).

    Was your tongue in your cheek or Kezia’s erse?

    Irony is so difficult to detect in mere print.

  66. John J. says:

    The poor woman’s out of her depth and is drowning. Seriously, I worry for her sanity.

  67. CameronB Brodie says:


    The fact that Jellyfish have survived for 650 million years without having brains is great news for Kezia

    Thai’s mot very reassuring as it’s pretty old news that jellyfish prove that absence of a brain is not reflected in an absence of threat to human well-being. A bit like BLiS___d frankly. 😉

  68. CameronB Brodie says:

    P.S. In case you do not have the time to click through, one impact of climate change is the increase in jellyfish numbers, to the point where they threaten fisheries, including off the coast of Scotland, apparently.

  69. Davy says:

    Yes I admit I did watch the full interview after work and I would like to apologize to my brain for doing so, it was a cruel thing to do, especially while sober.

    The interview ranks as bad as Johann Lamont’s new Forth Road bridge episode on First Minsters question time a few years back.

    Give Kezia her due it takes a lot of stupidity to match Johann, but she did it.

    Looks like labour in Scotland is going to go the same way as the dodo and the libdems, at least the dodo’s extinction was not their fault, you can’t say that about the other two.

  70. heedtracker says:

    A lot to learn but I imagine a quick learner

    But why did she not hedge on JC? Same question goes to the now invisible man Ian Murray. They seek him here, they seek him there…

    Anyone who cares could see that JC was a pretty safe bet but that made no odds for Holyrood Barbie or Murray, and so on. They could both have said nothing and offended no one in particular. They risked the last vestiges of SLabour for what, the rise of the red tories, in a Scotland that now has proud Scotbut Labour voters actually voting blue tory.

    You cant even say don’t believe the tory BBC hype but they probably do. And that git Murray’s letting Kez take all the heat too, the big chicken.

  71. Grouse Beater says:

    Austin Flynn: “She seems to have a thick skin in brushing off the personal smears from many SNP activists.

    No. It isn’t working. You’ll have to polish up on your one-liners. They’re not funny at all or clever. And audiences won’t connect your name with toothy, goofy Austin Powers. How about, ‘Austin Texas’? That has immediate recognition.

  72. Glesca Keelie says:

    The wee lassies just daft, despite her degree. Friday’s National front cover covers it.

    Her problem is, tho, that she thinks she is an intellectual giant. Thus her retorts to But But Brewer.

    “In a land of mediocrities, some think their Socrates.”

  73. Training Day says:

    Dugdale is a moron whose levels of idiocy would have the competition in the village running for the hills.

    She is the best ‘Scottish’ labour have.

    And yet there is a sub-Dugdale level of cretinism. They are the people who vote for her.

  74. CognitiveBurp says:

    Kezia Dugdale is the best thing to happen to the Indy movement. I only hope she remains leader of Scottish Labour, i’d hate them to replace her with someone competent.

  75. Colin McCartney says:

    We would like to point out, that us jellyfish have been evolving at a much faster rate than the labour party in scotland. Not a great claim to fame we know, but hey
    portuguese man of war

  76. Robert Graham says:

    I wonder what name Kezia would adopt if at a loose end she decided to post on some sites that may have in the past cast aspersions on her ability as a leader of a political party ,with unhindered access to a compliant media, I seen to remember she use to use an alias on a newspaper comment page once, I wonder if she has made a return appearance here ? , Tonight.

  77. John Thomson says:

    2 big cups of tea and 10 cookies later, thought it would never end, is this a sea change. never thought I would see Kez on the defence more more more please Gordon Brewer my Hero

  78. heedtracker says:

    The Ligger probably means @Englandelects, SNP don’t even make it to “other” here. Also, why does Ligger look more and more like Bully from Bullseye these days, same skin tone too, a coincidence I’m sure.

    Andrew Neil Retweeted
    Britain Elects ?@britainelects 10h10 hours ago
    Westminster voting intention:
    CON: 41% (-)
    LAB: 26% (-2)
    UKIP: 14% (+1)
    LDEM: 8% (-1)
    GRN: 4% (-)
    (via ICM)

  79. CameronB Brodie says:

    @ Andrew Neil
    I guess it just goes against the grain for you to respect the people of Scotland’s humanity and associated rights? We’re just slave to the British state, eh?

  80. Fred says:

    Brewer must really need the money or he’d walk!

  81. Clootie says:

    If/Whenever you start to feel pity for Kezia remember that incompetence has damaged more people than malice.

    She defends the union and it damages people. We would not be enduring the austerity cuts now BUT for the contribution of Kezia and her like.

    …beware the incompetent puppet…a very dangerous breed.

  82. North chiel says:

    Further to ” Capella at 0804pm and G4jeepers at 0829″ and the unionists absolute favourite con and outright lie as regards oil prices and the never ending propaganda of ” the oil price collapse” with the subsequent ” disasterous consequences” for an Independent Scotland. Perhaps fellow ” Wingers” should have a look at the “Statista” website which details Brent crude average annual oil prices (USD), from 1976-2016.
    From 1976 ( 12.8 usd) until 2004 a total of 28 years of N Sea production , the highest average annual price was 38.1 usd ( 2004) . In fourteen of these years the average annual price was LESS THAN 20 USD per barrel! Even as recent as1998 the average was as low as 12.8 usd for that year, and in 2004 at 38.1usd that is 10 usd per barrel less than today’s price.
    In fact,the average annual price was only at a peak over 100 usd per barrel for THREE YEARS only ( 2011,2012, and 2013) , and the average in 2015, at 52.35 usd has only been bettered in 10 years out of 40 years North Sea production.
    Thus , within the context of 40 years production the ” oil price collapse” is a complete fallacy and in fact ” outright lie”.

  83. The Rough Bounds says:

    Glesca Keelie 9.51pm.

    Sorry buddy, but your post would make more sense if you had used the correct ‘they’re’ instead of ‘their’.

  84. heedtracker says:

    Tristram is not amused. Tristram should do stand up, he’s such a funny guy. Ruth Davidson’s working class tory, the bestest kind of tory. Tristram’s upper class labour, the bestest kind of Labour.

    Why do enough Scots want to be reigned over by these comedians again?

  85. Tom Garrett says:

    Well that went well!!!

  86. Norman R says:

    Glad to see brewer doing his job. Yes, I think the BBC are finding it a tad too embarrassing supporting Labour now. They`re making it so difficult for them. We`ve all heard of Shrodingers cat. We now have a shrodingers dug!

  87. Glesca Keelie says:

    The Rough Bounds .

    You know, I looked at that and knew there was something wrong, but I could’nt put my finger on it. Word blindness, or old age. I’m not quite sure which.

    That’s my excuse anyway.

  88. Noooooooo…. not again……. aaagh.

  89. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I’m going to throw in a wee word of sympathy for Kezia here. Personal, not political, that is. No wonder there isn’t even a hint of replacement – the poor woman is faced with an impossible task. Any one else put in the same position would struggle just as much, unless they had the cynical genius of a Machiavelli maybe.

    After all, just look at Murphy. In his arrogance, he thought all it would take to derail the SNP and the wider independence movement was some slick talking. He obviously thought the whole Scottish thing was an empty bubble that a consummate “1st rank player” like himself could deflate with ease, and found instead that the empty bubble was his own party and Scotland was chock-full of clued-up ordinary people who knew it.

    Kezia’s problem is that she is earnestly trying to keep a motley ship of fools afloat while desperately trying to pretend to everyone else that it’s not really relentlessly taking on water. Maybe she would have been wiser not to have been so obviously against Corbyn, but then she would have been accused of being a devious careerist trimmer without principle, so it was a lose-lose situation for her.

    As we know, if she were smarter she would have moved “Scottish” Labour into the indy camp. But presumably she doesn’t favour that option personally, and doesn’t see any great desire within her party for it either, so instead she’s trying to inch her Scottish branch office forward to some necessary degree of autonomy, even if only to be seen to be achieving some progress. Even that may be too much for many. It is beginning to become clear, for example, that whatever emollient phrases Corbyn may be deploying, the Momentum people behind him are dead against any kind of Scottish autonomy within Labour (and by extension to Scotland as a whole). They’re convinced they are on the True Path of socialist righteousness, and believe they can attract Scots back into the fold by promises of “people power”, not least to keep us in play for the 2020 UKGE. Another false prospectus, just like last time. Another futile massacre, with the direst of consequences, as Kezia herself clearly fears. These people remind me of nothing so much as the Native American “Ghost Dancers”.

    And all the while, poor Kezia is obliged to keep a smiley face on show to the general public and assure everyone that Labour is in the best of all possible unified conditions while all the time having to deal with who-knows-what stupidity and manoevering behind the scenes.

    It’s not something I would wish on any sentient human being, frankly.

  90. CameronB Brodie says:

    They don’t make toffs like they used to. This one’s a bleeding Marxist. Then again, just look back at the leadership of the British Labour party over the last century. Tony Ben and the McCrone Report springs to mind.

    If Stalin-ism was Trotsky-ism implemented within a framework of internal colonialism, is British nationalism akin to neo-Trotskist English socialism implemented within a neo-Stalinist framework of cultural intolerance? Remember the good old days when a Fabian wasn’t afraid to state that the best that can be said about Stalin was that he was a good Fabian.

    Did I take that too far? 🙂

  91. findlay farquaharson says:

    man, what an over promoted, out of her depth embarrassment

  92. Free Scotland says:

    It’s time Kezia learned to BUTTON it.

  93. yesindyref2 says:

    OT – Interesting document:

    unless my eyes are too tired, I can’t see Faslane or Coulport on it.

  94. She makes Jim Murphy look intellectual and Johann Lamont almost professorial.

    Would have submitted this comment earlier, but I had a problem with the button.

  95. Effijy says:

    Dear Kezia, that interview is the most pathetic, humiliating, embarrassing state of denial that I have ever seen a politician involved in.

    That job is not for you!
    For your own mental health, and for the sake of your loved ones, get out of there now!

    You are a positive influence for the Independence, that I desperately seeks, but I am so uncomfortable watching you sinking into insanity and claiming that its the rest of Scotland that have got it wrong, while you are right.

    Take your own advice and Google yourself, Kezia, on TV, on Radio, in many newspaper interviews, clearly stating that
    you have no faith in Corbyn, that he doesn’t have the right policies, that he cannot unite the party, and that he is incapable of being Prime Minister.

    You even told us that you voted against Corbyn and for Smith, just a couple of days ago. Not in distant History!

    Now you audaciously attempt to tell everyone that you have always supported Corbyn, he can unite the party and he can win a general election?

    The Scottish Public have been fools for many years in trusting in Labour, but they are fools no more.
    You insult them as they know exactly what you said, and that you now completely and utterly contradict yourself.

    For heavens sake woman you can’t even press a button, well other than the self destruct one that sits inside your head.

    If the Labour Party has any form of Duty Of Care, they must see that they are destroying this woman.

    If that is how they take care of each other in the Labour Party, they can keep it down in Westminster.

  96. Valerie says:

    Just caught up with this and last thread.

    Welcome to a few new names, hope you stick around and join in.

    I literally got up from my seat after about 5 mins of the Kez interview. Just too embarrassing, not that I have any sympathy, just apathy about Slab.

    Almost Monday, time for the rerun of the Labour leadership race soon. The PLP have been bleating and whining all day.

    What a goddamned miserable party. I have a good laugh at branch meetings, and a particular highlight was Nicolas tour, when the crowds were going mental.

    A world of difference.

  97. crazycat says:

    @ yesindyref2

    More than 3 years old, but presumably still true:

    “Ministry of Defence (MoD) nuclear sites have historically had crown immunity from prosecution because they’ve not been covered by nuclear safety legislation. But in the past when their management was put into private hands, this has had to change.

    In 1997 the bomb-making factories at Aldermaston and Burghfield in Berkshire were licensed under the Nuclear Installations Act and subject to independent inspections after they were handed over to private companies. Critics say this has greatly improved safety and transparency.

    But the same has not happened at Coulport. Internal documents released under freedom of information law show that the companies now running the nuclear weapons store escaped safety licencing because the MoD’s continuing oversight was deemed “the absolute minimum that is acceptable.”

    After a visit last November, the UK government’s Office for Nuclear Regulation (ONR) decided that Coulport did not need to become a nuclear licensed site. This followed arguments from site staff that new management arrangements were sufficient to “guard against potential licensing by ONR”.”

  98. Smallaxe says:

    An open letter to Wingers
    Today Kezia, spoke a lot of Shit,which told us Jack Shit,it is now left to myself to explain to Wingers about Jack Shit.

    Jack Shit is the only son of Aww Shit,who married Oh Shit owner of Knee Deep in Shit ltd.Jack Shit married No Shit,They had six kids,Holy Shit,Give Shit,Fulla Shit,Bull Shit and the twins Deep Shit and Dip Shit.Deep Shit married Dumb Shit a college dropout.
    After 15yrs,Jack Shit and No Shit divorced,No Shit married
    Ted Sherlock and she became No Shit Sherlock.

    In conclusion Wingers,the next time someone tells you that you
    don’t know Jack Shit,Proudly Proclaim,YES I DO,AND I KNOW ALL

    Peace Love and Shhhhoosh

  99. Returnofthemac says:

    At one point in “the interview” Kez I am sure almost slipped in a Murphyism. She stopped at ‘fundily’ not quite quoting the master the great, never to be forgotten ‘fundilymundily’ legend.

  100. yesindyref2 says:

    Thanks. Yes I guessed it was because of MOD inspection, they have their own reporting categories. but didn’t realise how close to the edge that made then with the ONR. As expected Angus Robertson was on top of that one.

    Yeah, went to “depute” leader hustings at Greenock, my branch invited. Preconceptions, I had Angus last because let’s face it, we’re trying to get rid of Westminster. But now? I think he’s a nose in front. My summary:

    McEleny – reinforces importance of councils and local, grassroots appeal
    Smith – reinforces EU which will be important, as it’s likely to be the “material change” for Indy Ref 2
    Sheppard – would make free 1.5 or 2 days a week to go round branches, help share good practice, involvement, polic, reforms
    Robertson – says all those 3 are important, but at this stage it needs experience, safety, tread carefully

    To be honest it all seemed to be about Indy rather than just SNP, which answers the doubters.

  101. Effijy says:

    Another aspect of the Kez Crash is the Fact that Brewer, with presumably BBC Blessing, asked a Labour leader a awkward question and made fun of her squirming in humiliating embarrassment.

    Have the BBC finally given up on Slab and have they decided to establish them as unelectable, in favour of sending their soft and Unionist supporters into the arms of Fat Boab and the True Blue Tory Boys?

  102. Artyhetty says:

    Dugdale is clearly arrogant, with such an over inflated ego, it surely must burst.

    Mind, she has obviously had some lessons from the U.S of A. How to bulls**t with a massively arrogant sense of self importance, as well as how to talk yourself into believing you are the leader of planet earth. Which way the wind blows, that’s gravy train Kez.

    Nicola Sturgeon has more intelligence, more integrity and more political insight in her little finger, than Dugdale will ever have in her whole body. Dugdale is just not up to it, on so many levels.

  103. CameronB Brodie says:

    As you are a fan of the artifacts of British imperialism in far off Rangoon, you might be interested in the author of 1984’s impression of how a nation is robbed of it’s wealth. As a Scot, I can tell you this has uncanny resonance. Mind you, I suppose you consider yourself an English socialist, so I imgine you consider the colonial exploitation of the Celtic Fringe to be the natural order of things.

    Hate to pop your bubble mate but Britain isn’t working.

  104. Still Positive. says:

    yesinyref2 @ 12.24

    I was at the Dumbarton hustings on Thursday and it was a very positive experience. I am convinced Chris McEleney is a rising star within the SNP.

    I also put Angus 4th but my son put him first. I know many MPs and MSPs put him first but I disagree.

    Voted Alyn 1st, then Chris, and Tommy and finally Angus.

    I said to others that Angus seems to have a sense of entitlement to the role.

  105. Effijy at 12.35

    Got it exactly. Dugdale has been hung out to dry by the establishment since they decided last year that Ruth was the chosen one. Basic problem is that Kezia doesn’t seem to realise it yet.

    I actually feel sorry for her and squirmed for her today but she is out of her depth. The mistakes were not today. They were made over the course of the leadership contest but she paid big time for them today.

    I hear rumours of Labour splitting already. Make sure all our doors are open with the welcome mats laid out.

  106. geeo says:

    Well, i went with the 20 minute version….!!!

    Did Kezia Dugdale really say, that without winning back the labour seats in Scotland,that labour, could NOT WIN a General election and gain power in 2020 ?

    That WAS what she said aye ?

  107. Richardinho says:

    Just remember this interview whenever you hear Dugdale saying anything; she will tell you that black is white and up is down and do it with a straight face.

    You couldn’t mark her neck with a blowtorch, as the old saying goes.

  108. Robert J. Sutherland says:


    Brewer has form in this. Just occasionally there comes a point in an interview when the other person (typically Labour) is so obviously incapable of making a coherent case out of an incoherent situation that even with the best prior intentions, the proper journalist within breaks loose and he just can’t resist getting stuck in.

    I remember one particular interview like that he did with Cathy Jamieson, back when Labour were still running things. He gave her every opportunity to contradict herself and she was only too ready and willing to oblige. I just fell about laughing. It’s probably somewhere on YouTube still. (There was the occasional diamond like this, sparkling in the sea of mud.)

  109. yesindyref2 says:

    @Still Positive
    Yes, that was the problem with Angus, he came across as arrogant, someone else I was talking to said the same thing.

    Being me, I told him that afterwards 🙂 He took it well. I just think he wants it, thinks he’s the right guy at this time, and that it’s important. It needs a steady hand, and he would be that right enough. Haven’t decided yet though, haven’t even got my vote, I unsubscribed to getting pestered to buy stuff from the shop but I think that unsubscribed me completely!

    I asked one question about what were their plans to make meetings more interesting and fun, more bottom up rather than top down, got a good bit of applause for that one so I’m not the only one. Got asked afterwards by one of my branch committee – to join the committee (no specific responsibility). I don’t know, I still consider myself unaligned, not a party animal, critical like there’s no tomorrow. maverick even. But considerably less than 1/10th of the branch membership come to meetings, no young folk, and I’d like to know why, and can anything be done to get their interest – like Indy discussions, strategy, whatever. I might give it a shot just for that. I joined for Indy, not the SNP, and perhaps a lot of others did the same thing. I think there’s a lot of resource wasted out there that aren’t remotely interested in leaflet droppping, door knocking, raffles, fund raising, usual party stuff – just like me.

  110. geeo says:

    So…Austin Flynn huh, or maybe a certain Express hack looking for a reaction…?

  111. Chic McGregor says:

    Well Kezia is an anagram of Kazie.

  112. Hoss Mackintosh says:

    New breakaway Labour Party being announced by the BBC (their official spokesmen) this morning as the Red Tory Party MPs split away.


  113. Peter Barjonas says:

    I wonder if the Scottish press will play with this for the rest of the week: perhaps not. The danger is that the more incompetence Kez displays the better it makes Davidson look. Maybe that is what the media will push.

  114. Liz g says:

    Chic McGregor @ 1.56.
    If we examine Smallaxes rhyme with academic textual analysis I think it clearly indicated the author’s intent was to infer
    Cludgie no Kazzie.

  115. Al-Stuart says:

    SCHRODINGER’S DUGDALE. Meaning a state of dead-truth or live-lie at the same time. A new and amazing scientific discovery 🙂

  116. Liz g says:

    Soooo….let me get this straight.
    After examining that interview all day.

    We now have Shrodingers Dug….Suffrin fae Verbal Diarrhoea….in a Kazzie that may or may not be a Cludgie?
    Is that where we are at?

    Good Grief this …Say it like Kes thing is catching!

  117. Peter Barjonas says:

    ‘Khasi’ and ‘cludgie’ are perfectly accaptable synonyms for ‘shithouse’, particularly when discussing the Scottish Labour Party!

  118. Conan the Librarian™ says:

    Doubleplusgood duckspeaker.

  119. Liz g says:

    Peter Barjoras 4.25
    Hi Peter haven’t seen you posting before, so if you’re new welcome.
    Synonyms,allorogorys , symbolism….. Labour’s no clever enough.
    We’re potentially over thinkin this
    Chances are we are dealing with jist plain daft.
    Dangerous tho but still daft!!!

  120. Liz g says:

    Ah Wing’s
    Where everyone finds their niche.
    Turn’s out mines is …Shitsplannin…
    Who knew..

  121. Kevin Evans says:

    labour are finished. Not the party as there will still be a Labour Party but as a serious electable party there done for.

    The Tories have it so easy. Everyone accepts the Tories are “c#nts” so if they do the terrible things they do people just shrug there shoulders and say “that’s the Tories for ya” then it’s a move on and nothing to see here kinda way. Then if anything goes well they claim credit for it. I don’t think there is a problem with politics in Scotland or in a Westminster sense the UK. The problem a spineless population willing to get dumped on.

    Indyref 1 they identified this as “fear” so they dubbed it “project fear” and that fear is real in the uk. Losing your job and not paying your mortgage is a real fear, a large part of that fear is losing face as well as losing your house. I think brexit will sort of the fears people have and make them a reality. For the sake of people I hope brexit works out but I’ve scrambled my thoughts and I can’t see how it can. Someone’s gonna lose out and with a Tory goverment it sure ain’t gonna be any of there chums, so that leaves the grafters who make up the majority. Labour feeds off poverty.

    The £ vrs the € has to reach £1/1€ you’d expect during brexit. Will that be the tipping point for the no’s moving to yes. I think it will be a major shift for people. That must effect the banks who must adjust the money and interest to counter which might put people’s home really at risk.

    If it was my choice I’d like the negatives to kick in before indyref2. Fear turns to reality – reality turns into crap and less opportunity – less opportunity and hope turns into yes votes since the poverty once used by labour has its home as an independent country willing to do things differently and offering a chance and a change to its people.

    A series of unfortunate events that will shake up the no’ers into yessers.

  122. CameronB Brodie says:

    Liz g
    Is that like mansplaining without the misogynistic arrogance? 😉

    P.S. That was a new word for me btw, thanks to WOS, and I’ve been looking for an excuse to use it. Easily pleased me. 🙂

  123. Smallaxe says:

    My ears are burning.

  124. Smallaxe says:

    There I am,lying in the back garden moonbathing,and my ears start burning,so I look at Wings and People are taking about
    me,someone clue me in,please.

    Peace Always

  125. Smallaxe says:

    C,mon I’ve got to practice the bagpipes before the neighbours
    wake up,I dont want to disturb them.

    Peace Always

  126. Smallaxe says:

    Still waiting!
    Hurry up!my chanters getting cold.

    Peace Always

  127. Smallaxe says:

    I know someones there,I can hear you breathing!
    Own up,who is it?

  128. Liz g says:

    Second try to reply.
    Right here Hun step away from the chanters and pacify the neighbours.

  129. Liz g says:

    How you keeping the day??

  130. Liz g says:

    Cameron B Brodie @ 5.28
    Aye that’s exactly it…mansplannin is for better mind’s than mine….but Shitsplannin comes easy to me.

  131. Smallaxe says:

    RIGHT,thats it,Im telling Rev Stu.on you lot,chappin people’s
    door and running away,very childish so it is.

    Peace Always

  132. Liz g says:

    We are examining your prose shit..

  133. Liz g says:

    Smallaxe @ 6.28
    don’t dae that
    Remember even if we are on topic we are supposed to write like a potential yes voter’s reading.
    We are no exactly keeping tae the rules.
    Ah mean we keep talking


  134. Breeks says:

    You know, with a very superficial review, and I mean half a dozen links, you can go from Kezia Dugdale, siding against Corbyn, Corbyn under pressure from Zionists and Labour Friends of Israel who have allegedly strong lobbying power in Labour and the BBC, and grew in prominence under Blair, (Blair remember, who Corbyn wants to stand trial for war crimes), who drew financial support from Zionists to reduce “New” Labour’s traditional dependency on the Unions, which, bought and paid for by Zionists, goes some way to explain Blair’s bombing Iraq and the illegal war. That’s a big can of worms, but one of those worms burns its way forward again to a US Presidential election with Hilary Clinton’s psychotic email about destroying Syria to help Israel being from one candidate, while Donald Trump who wants to bomb everything Muslim is seen as the dangerous one. The Middle East is already in flames, the US is stoking the fire, literally arming the enemy, because the Zionist lobbyists are paranoid about any Muslim state going nuclear and anarchy is much less dangerous. By “pure coincidence”, European tolerance is being tested for refugees driven out of the Middle East by the war Europe didn’t provoke, and it is now stoking up right wing extremists hostile to immigrants and very hostile to ISIS terrorists. How convenient for some global trade superpowers with big debts…

    Now I’m not paranoid, nor am I antisemitic, although I do have problems with Zionism and its attitude towards Palestinians, but to repeat what I said at the start, that is just a path through cyberspace across half a dozen links.

    Here in Scotland, we get none of that substantial review of world events, the news seems to be all about Kezia, the dizzy blonde who can’t even get that right. When are we going to get grown up politics and engage with global issues rather than bubblegum news and Twitter gossip?

    There is so much stuff happening in the real world, especially in Syria, which isn’t being scrutinised, and a whole battery of truths which are being kept from us. There is a malignancy in the Western powers, there seems to be a cause and effect in sympathy with Zionist objectives, but it has destroyed much of the Middle East, instigated a new generation of terrorism, strengthens the hand of the Chinese and Russia, while penalising and destabilising Europe for its tolerance. Someone is fuelling this division, xenophobia and rising alarm, and Brexit is a prime illustration of its effect.

    Call me fussy. I want more substance to my news than what Kezia did next.

    Do you see the perspective problem here? This Keziaspeech is such superficial crap when seen from a global perspective, but yet here in Scotland, what Kezia says about Scottish Labour is bigger news than Scotland’s right to be a sovereign country, and standing shoulder to shoulder with our liberal and honourable friends in Europe, strengthening Europe against the malignancy that fuels division.

    We are living in a denial bubble while the World shakes itself to death driven by a toxic mix of Neoliberal insanity, covert Zionist anti Muslim warmongering, and frightening financial instability. We see it and yet we don’t. Let’s talk about fitba and who’ll be next after Kez.

    Where’s the fecking plan Scotland? How can we ever be independent with such a chronic lack of self awareness? Somebody has turned us into sheep who browse and bleat and accept life inside the fence.

  135. Sunniva says:

    I think what I find so off-putting about Kezia is less her incompetance as its being combined with a sneery, condescending attitude, and sense of her self-importance and entitlement. There are times when I almost feel sorry for her until she starts adopting that condescending tone.

  136. Smallaxe says:

    Liz g:

    A very good morning to you,I was starting to get a complex for
    a wee while just then,Im better this morning than I was yesterday liz,bloody fatigue floored me yesterday,I could hardly put in a post,I didn’t even get to say hello to Nana.

    I hope she hasn’t fallen out with me.How are you today?

  137. Smallaxe says:


    Well said Sir,I posted an email sent to me from Amnesty International just a day or so ago,trying to bring attention
    to just what you are saying,maybe you saw it.I like yourself
    tend to think globally the Planet is disintegrating all around
    us and no one seems to take any notice.

    Eternal vigilance is the price of Freedom!

    Peace Always, I do not finish my posts with those words just
    on a whim,I mean it,the world is looking very dangerous at this moment.

  138. Ken500 says:

    So pathetic beyond useless. Just staggering. It is just pathetic. The Unionist/Green No Party. How can anyone vote for them? A complete and utter disgrace. The staggering incompetent mess. When at first they try and deceive. They try, try and try again. Scotland needs a break.

    A £Multibillions tax evader gives up a few £Billions. Tony Blair is putting. His wealth into charities to try to prevent paying up for illegal death.

    SNP/SNP 2017.

  139. Smallaxe says:


    Apologies,I think that the email that I was referring to came
    from,Medicin sans Frontiers.People,children are dying needlessly for reasons which anger me and make me despair of
    mankind.I want a better future for my grandchildren than I can
    envisage at this time,we can only try to get our own house in order as quickly as possible,then maybe we can have a say in
    stopping these awful destructive wars.

  140. Liz g says:

    Smallaxe @ 6.49
    Nanna would never in a million years fall out with you ,she is a very gracious lady…and even if she wasn’t I can’t imagine anything you have ever done to warrant such a thing.
    Please do not concern yourself with anything like that.
    All of us only want the best for you and your’s.
    After that we need you to help us with Indy,so take care of you and your’s my friend.
    AND I am sure there will be another night when we will get to
    Talk SHITE…

  141. Smallaxe says:

    Please excuse my punctuation,typos etc,but I am writing on a small tablet using only one finger.Very frustrating.

    Peace Always

  142. Clootie says:

    Why are so many determined to turn this site into a social chat forum?
    Please stick to Politics or go to Facebook!

  143. Smallaxe says:

    liz g:

    I look forward to that,hope all is well with you and yours.

    Peace Always ALLWAYS

  144. Vronsky says:

    Like other posters I see a mood swing in the MSM. Brewer vs Dugdale on TV, then Hutcheon does a hatchet piece in the Sunday Herald. It may be that they belatedly recognise Dugdale for the liability she always was, or perhaps they’ve given up on Labour as the last hope for the Union and the wagons will now be circled around Ruthie.

  145. mealer says:

    Yesindyref2 1.26am

    So,you’re not remotely interested in canvassing,leafleting or fundraising.What,exactly,are you prepared to do in the struggle for independence?

  146. Liz g says:

    Clootie @ 7.30
    Take it to the owner of the blog.
    He should be the one who gets to say what is or isn’t acceptable.. don’t you think?
    You are correct this”isn’t Facebook.
    It’s Rev Stu’s blog …So if/and until the guy tells me I am out of line shut up,I am afraid you are just going to have to learn to scroll my friend.

  147. Clootie says:

    Liz G @ 7:52

    …and I thought we were trying to attract the undecided…silly me

  148. Smallaxe says:

    Clootie says: Nothing since 10;30pm,then comes on to complain.

    Peace Always

  149. Nana says:

    Oil prices rebound after Algeria says all options open at OPEC meeting

    British values -Those who do the most damage get rewarded

    Long video for when you have a spare hour or so
    Brexit: Legal & Constitutional Requirements

  150. BJ says:


    I come on this site every day and cannot believe the work and effort put in by Stu and well informed posters who keep me informed and sane I may add.

    The banality style that is fit for Facebook or a personal email onto a serious good site like this is very annoying and is trivialising the efforts of the many.

    Only my opinion and just saying

    Back to Dugdale car crash. I think one poster on here hit the nail on the head. Dugdale will probably be here ’till after the council elections so they can blame her, unless they can find someone who might soften the impact.

  151. Smallaxe says:


    Thank you Sweetheart,sorry I missed you yesterday but I did get your links, you don’t need sugar Nana your sweet enough.

    Kettles on!

    Peace Love and Good morning

  152. Undeadshuan says:

    Found an interesting link on UK oil production, details costs and current costs per barrell etc on North Sea oil production and planned efficiency savings going forward.

    Looks to me like production cost is around 29 dollars a barrel projected to fall to 17 dollars this year?

  153. Famous15 says:


    BBC frothing at the mouth over a wee bump by MV Hebrides into a pier.

    Thank you BBC trying to destroy the reputation of The ferry company and the shipbuilders. BBC you are playing games with peoples jobs!

  154. Liz g says:

    Clootie @ 7.30
    Actually reading back my comment it sounds very confrontational.
    What I should have explained was that sometimes, especially in the middle of the night, it’s cathartic to get a wee bit silly and maybe a bit personal.

    While I don’t see anything wrong in that, maybe others do and if they do……well the only thing to do is to ask Stu to sort it.
    Cause it is after all his Blog.
    If he does indeed comment then I am pretty sure the people I think you are indicating are a problem would comply.
    If they don’t then he can respond however he wants to.
    Therefore in the nicest possible way….
    If you have a problem.
    Don’t try to correct it here by engaging the commentators you Think are out of line.

    The Rev is not only very contactable he is as far as I can tell more than willing to take a position/point of view on things.

  155. galamcennalath says:

    Famous15 says:

    “BBC you are playing games with peoples jobs!”

    …. and safety, and security, and dignity, and prosperity, and health, and lives even.

    When it comes to protecting their Union, there appear to be no limit on how low they stoop.

  156. tartanarse says:


    It’s like watching your tone deaf aunty getting up for Karaoke. Weirdly engrossing but uncomfortable so that you cant quite make it to the end.

    At least you can switch Kez off.

    I didn’t even get through the short version.

  157. It’s time that the medical profession coined a clinical term for Dugdale’s ailment.

    May I suggest a hybrid neologism?


    An irrational fear of the truth.

    Kezia Dugdale is the Chemical Ali of the So Called Scottish Labour Party, the gang formerly known as ‘The Branch Office.’

  158. Meindevon says:

    Have to agree with Clootie (he might be shocked, we go back a long way!) and BJ. There’s lots of personal conversations going on, one of whom in particular seems to be taking over Stu’s blog.

    This site is probably THE most important one regarding Independence for Scotland. It has been reduced to post full of ‘love, kisses, hugs, sweetheart, peace etc.. People loving each other up should be done Off Topic. Actually those that are posting up to twenty and sometimes more on each article might find that getting their own blog beneficial. It seems very rude to take over Stu’s.

    A re reading of the rules wouldn’t go amiss either. Stu asks for folk not to ‘sign off’ after every post and also no petty name calling.

    There’s lots of great comments here still and brilliant links but we’re having to sift through a lot of twaddle to find these. A huge put off, I would have thought for new readers.

    Sorry if I’ve upset anyone, but we need to keep people interested and encourage new readers.

  159. crazycat says:

    @ Liz g

    A bonus of taking your late night chats to Off Topic is that others are there too, and will join your conversations.

  160. Les Wilson says:

    Well we know all we need to know about labour, that includes Slab. We know the state they are in, but we really need to be focusing on the Council elections, as all the Unionist parties will be colluding against us.

    We really need to win these to further the cause. If we can win at least most of them it will be better for the country and a boost for Indy2, then we need to set about the Tories, their little flicker of light needs extinguished in Scotland, that has to be our focus, and just allow Slab to destroy itself without any help from us. It is coming, we need to focus on the end game.

  161. Smallaxe says:

    Jack Collatin:

    On the pack of cards that I have,Ali Hasan Al Magid(Chemical Ali) is the king of Spades,I think Kezia is more likely to be the Joker when we come to make up our own pack of Cards.

    Peace Always

  162. Do you think that when Kezia Dugdale says Labour must unite, that she is trying to unite Labour against her.

  163. Scott says:

    Brexit warning: US bank bosses from Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and BlackRock threaten Theresa May with relocation

    I thought this only happened when we in Scotland want independence could someone ask Darling if he agrees with these banks as he was very keen to warn us about banks moving out of Scotland,will we have Nick Robinson telling May to answer the question.

    Dugdale is now toast send for sunny Jim Murph he will sort them out.

  164. mike cassidy says:

    Robert J Sutherland 1.26

    Is this the Brewer/Jamieson interview you had in mind?

    He really does seem to lose it from about 4.25!

  165. Legerwood says:

    Meindevon @ 9.04 am

    Agree with you completely.

  166. Greannach says:

    That was verging on tragic. I used to find Kezia Dugdale comic and entertaining, but it really seems as if there’s something wrong at a deeper level.

  167. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Les Wilson says at 9:19 am

    “We really need to be focusing on the Council elections, as all the Unionist parties will be colluding against us.”

    Couldn’t agree more Les.

    There are 2 By elections in Aberdeenshire in November and the Unionist wagons are already being circled.

    Attacks on Scots Gov funding of Local Authorities and the use of NE Council Tax in poorer areas of Scotland as a further example of Central Belt Bias.

    I’m watching these with great interest to see what tactics are used in advance of May 2017.

  168. One_Scot says:

    Can’t help from feeling that the Labour Party are now thinking, ‘you know what, not really sure we want to deal with all this EU, Brexit hassle, probably best sit down for say fifteen – twenty years until all this nonsense has settled down a bit.’

    I’m no expert on political strategy, but the thought of the next 20 years of Tories dumping on us makes me think, it might be good time for Scotland to take a different path.

  169. Tam Jardine says:

    Grouse Beater 7.10pm

    Hope you are feeling a bit more upbeat today. I have been following the travails of the labour party yesterday. With rumours this morning of an impending breakaway party appearing on the internet it is hard to know the ramifications this will have for the branch office. They will have a choice to make and we could be seeing the end of the labour party as we know it.

    OT I visited Trinity House in Leith yesterday (doors open day) and taking up one full wall is an enormous painting by David Scott entitled Vasco Da Gama Encountering the Spirit of the Cape. Dias had scouted out the route round the Cape of Good Hope previously and eventually turned back after his crew refused to go any further.

    The canvas is a monster- almost completely brown caused by varnish discolouring (so I am told)- it is in need of a total restoration. You can discern Vasco Da Gama standing defiant amidst the turmoil on board his vessel, the São Gabriel as it encounters a raging storm off the Cape. It is hard for me to do justice to it in a couple of short sentences:

    It seems that the independence movement is heading towards a similar place: the route has been scouted out before in 2014 and we face the mother of all storms before we finally round the Cape and make our way into the uncharted territory beyond.

    Amidst the chaos and the hellish storms that will envelope us during the next campaign we will need to have confidence and show defiance. It was Roosevelt said “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty…”

    Anyway- have a good week and don’t lose heart my friend.

  170. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Scott says at 9:33 am

    I wonder if these bank bosses (from Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and BlackRock) could be persuaded to state publicly that they would relocated to an iScotland that was still a full member of the EU.

    Perhaps SNP/Scots Gov could ask them.

    I doubt the BBC/MSM will 🙂

  171. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Meindevon 9:04am

    Agreed and well said. And I will, for my part, cut right back on the imgur pics and post them over on Off Topic henceforth.

  172. ScottieDog says:

    @Jockanese Wind talker
    To be honest I want to sell an indyscot on the basis of a stable and regulated banking system.
    We should be shouting to the rooftops about how unstable the UK unregulated system and government policy is about to cause another crash. Another £1 trillion on national debt.

  173. X_Sticks says:

    No apology for this O/T again.

    I think we need to support this. We complain endlessly about the MSM but when something comes along that could begin to challenge their monopoly it fails to get our support.

    I’ve just watched Phantom Power’s excellent latest film

    I think it is the beginnings of the new media the we so desperately need. We need to get behind this and get it funded. They are at 31% of £18,000 with only two days to go.

    I’m going to flog this relentlessly and I hope others here will get behind it to. If Wings can raise 50k in a day then surely we can do this but it’s going to take a concerted effort. I hope you’ll help.

    PERSPECTIVE: “A series of documentary films covering Scotland’s journey to independence. Who is involved, what will our country look like, how will our economy work, where is our place in Europe? Exploring the big questions behind Scotland’s democratic revolution.”

  174. Smallaxe: LoL.

    Dugdale is not the only one of the So Called Scottish Labour Party House of Cards suffering from ‘veritaphobia.’

    With a reported 2/3 of So Called Scottish Labour Party members voting for Smith, Neil the Bricklayer, or Alex Rowley will have no chance in the now inevitable ‘leadership challenge.’

    My money’s on Jenny Marra, who will stand on a Home Rule for Scotland ticket, since she plies her trade in YES supporting Dundee.

    I pray to the God Of Give The Public A Good Laugh, that Sarwar or Baillie rises without trace, and Revenant Murphy would just be too much to ask, would it?

  175. Having just watched the full version of the Brewer/Dugdale interview, I agree with others who say that, at least in Scotland, the Labour Party have been thrown to the wolves.
    I think this trend first became apparent during the 2016 Scottish Elections, when it became obvious the B.B.C, the establishment’s greatest mouthpiece, started to big-up Ruth Davidson and the tories, in preparation for our next battle, Indyref2.
    It doesn’t matter who leads the Labour Party, either nationally, or in Scotland, as they will not be our main opposition in the forthcoming contest. It will be the M.S.M, spouting their vitriolic propaganda, and bumming up Davidson, and the tories as the saviours of the “nation”.
    That’s who we have to beware, as they will sink to new depths with their lies to try to prevent us gaining our independence.

  176. Black Joan says:

    Well said Meindevon @9.04am.

    Off-topic is surely the place for the personal chat etc, etc.

    It’s not helpful if new visitors get the impression they are gatecrashing a private party.

  177. Tinto Chiel says:

    BJ@8.22: “Dugdale will probably be here ’till after the council elections so they can blame her, unless they can find someone who might soften the impact.”

    A good point. She may be allowed to hang around to carry the can next May and there is not really anyone else on the horizon who has any ability or appeal in any case. Findlay? Rowley? Mmm……

    In any case, I don’t expect a wipe-out of the Yoon councils because of the vagaries of voting system, which many people don’t understand. This confusion aids the anti-independence parties.

    I think the BBC are putting their money on their old employee, Ruth, as The Union’s Bestest Hope. I can’t imagine Mr (“Just to be clear”) Brewer giving her such a hard time, although her position on just about everything (eg the EU/Brexit) is just as contradictory as Kezia’s, but she gets away with it.

    Meanwhile we all have to tread water while these unprincipled non-entities run down their own country and the Tories try to work out what to do about Brexit. You can hear the BBC on Pravdasound4 telling us how everything’s fine and there’s nothing to worry about.

    Incredibly frustrating.

  178. tartanarse says:

    Meindevon at 9.04

    Too true. There’s FB and Twitter for that sort of thing. All this talk of who’s fallen out and that guy called me names is embarrassing.

    In addition, there’s also wee cliques who will not tolerate differing opinions from theirs.

    I often fear for the lurker. We can’t afford to put them off.

    I don’t post here often as I can’t be arsed to explain myself to folk who apparently want the same as me.

  179. Les Wilson says:

    We should be spending our time ripping the Tories and their policies apart, rather than wasting time on the death of Slab/Labour. Slab/ Labour will be the death of a thousand cuts as the party splits and splinters. They are making a good job of it by themselves.

    Let us get stuck into Rooth the Mooth and her following of anti Scottish creeps.

  180. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Jackie Baillie deserves a chance as SLab leader.


  181. pa_broon74 says:

    Its when she shakes her head, tsk tsk’s with faux impatience and puts on that fake smile of humility, as if its everyone else who’s being stupid and not her.

  182. louis.b.argyll says:

    Rev C…how about,

    and off… /topics?

  183. X_Sticks says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    “Jackie Baillie deserves a chance as SLab leader”

    You do have a nasty streak Ian. 😉

  184. DerekM says:

    What ever you do,do not watch this with a hangover your head will be nipping by the end jeez i feel like i need a drink after watching that a stiff brandy to take away the horror shock.

    She is toast the button mistake in a coordinated gang up by all the other yoons to defeat the Scottish government and force them to do the tory dirty work has left her yoon position untenable even to the yoons.

    She is just too dim to understand she should have fell on her own sword and resigned over wanting to spend more time with family blah de blah de blah usual yoon waffle.

    But now she puts her yoon pals in a difficult position if they sack her they know we will go to town on them 🙂

  185. heraldnomore says:

    Not long after switching off shortbread wireless, after KwithanE was bumping her gums over Corbyn’s electability, what do I find over on facebook?

    People you may know, one mutual friend – Kaye Adams.

    I’ve narrowed it down, but…

  186. manandboy says:

    Beware of talk by Labour of ‘fighting the Tories’.

    The four Unionist parties are in an Alliance, fighting Scottish Independence. Brexit will be bad for England, but Scotland’s Independence will be far, far worse.

    Be wary too of talk of Labour’s ‘death’ in Scotland. Labour Unionist voters will simply vote Tory. That will of course give the appearance of both a strengthening Tory party and a dying Labour. I don’t expect at this stage, too many, if any, crossing over from Labour to the SNP.

    Re Gordon Brewer interview, I think it more likely that the BBC have decided to jettison K Dugdale than write off Labour in Scotland, who will remain very useful as part of the Unionist Alliance.

    If talk of a split by the Labour group of MPs is accurate then we are going to be stuck with more Labour in the media for a while. This will only continue to take the heat off Mrs May and her gang of Brexit know nothings.

    If you are looking for understanding and perspective of what is going on, both here and globally, including Europe in particular, I don’t know of anyone apart from Yanis Varoufakis who is able to do that. Google his name. You wont regret it.

  187. heedtracker says:

    It will be the M.S.M, spouting their vitriolic propaganda, and bumming up Davidson, and the tories as the saviours of the “nation”.

    They’re angry at Holyrood Barbie for making such a mess of things this whole Brexit summer. BBC Scotland are BBC SLabour on telly and radio.

    They’re right to be red tory angry just for Labour’s pointless failed coup, a year after JC’s solid win. Longer it goes on, the more Brexit exposes the blue tories for the shower of shite they are but Lab’s left them to get on with it untouched. All Kez had to do was follow the Macternan Predicts comedy show and do the exact opposite.

    FT says

    Senior financiers are alarmed at growing political momentum behind a so-called “hard Brexit” that they fear will erode business confidence, trigger corporate departures and damage the City of London.

    The City’s special relationship with EU finance Banks who use UK as a gateway to EU have more than £7tn of assets and make annual profits of more than £50bn. Leading bankers who have held talks with government ministers have told the Financial Times they believe Theresa May, the prime minister, will end up taking Britain out of the EU’s single market and customs union.

    They fear policy is being shaped by pro-Brexit ministers like Liam Fox, international trade secretary, who said in July that Britain would probably leave the customs union, and Brexit minister David Davis, who says it is “improbable” that Britain would stay in the single market.

  188. heedtracker says:

    FT thing is bad news all round. SNP on facebook say watch out for your holiday medical costs to shoot up now in Europe too.

    “Three quarters of UK chief executives polled by KPMG said they were considering moving operations or headquarters overseas following the Brexit vote, according to a survey released on Monday.

    One Wall Street boss expressed concern that Mrs May did not fully grasp the consequences for the City of a “hard Brexit”, while other financiers claim civil servants are afraid to speak up to explain the broad risks of leaving the EU’s economic core.

    Meanwhile John Holland-Kaye, chief executive of Heathrow, warned that leaving the EU customs union would “add massive overhead” for businesses and port operators. “Can you imagine operating something like the Euro[tunnel] if you had to suddenly build in all these checks in place? It would be completely unmanageable,” he told the FT.

    One banker said that pro-Brexit ministers like Mr Fox and Mr Davis had yet to engage with the City. “If you try to discuss detail with them, you are dismissed as questioning the merits of Brexit,” said one.”

  189. louis.b.argyll says:

    Lurkers, like me most of the time, come to WOS to track through conversations and links to get a gist of where we’re at politically, instead of watching the news.

    Conversations which we are not interested in are ignored so to speak but have relevance for others so it’s fine as it is.

    The problem is with flippancy and lazy repetition.

    Calling out misnomers and age-old lies however, must be repeated. Rev C’s articles, Ken 500’s fact based paragraphs for example and of course Peffer’s’s” constitutional angle are essential, now definitive, facts without motive.

    The truth wins – KEEP IT UP WINGS.

  190. Fred says:

    That job’s too much for Kezia, she’s putting on an act which will all dissolve in tears one day. Best she joins Lamont & Gray in the cheap seats.

    @ Glesca Keelie, which part of Glesga might that be?

  191. Nana says:

    Tried posting these earlier, must have pushed the wrong button!

    Should links be in off topic? Tried that once and was asked back here. Maybe best to ask Stu, his blog his rules.

    INEOS PR plan to greet fracking boat

    Boris-johnson-yemen-criticised-human-rights-watch-amnesty-international-blocking-war-crimes inquiry

    As a rule I don’t ever go to the scotsman, I was curious as to what Lesley had to say

  192. Ron Maclean says:

    Meindevon 9.04am

    Thank you – fully agree. There seems to be a deliberate attempt to trivialise this important site.

  193. Free Scotland says:

    She probably doesn’t realise it, but all the signs are there that a secret agent has given Kezia Dugdale a chip and told her what to think. The chip is poorly protected by a cheap anti-virus software package. This accounts for the occasional glitches which are often interpreted by failed media hacks as autonomous thinking.

  194. Dr Jim says:

    Labour Tory the B movie,
    in reality indistinguishable from one another in practice both of them trying to look different from the other to get supporters to believe in stuff they don’t believe in themselves

    One party struggling to win the other struggling not to lose
    but both displaying a complete and total ineptitude to organise a brewery outing for drunks

    It doesn’t matter what’s voted for at the party conference says Kate Hoey because “it’s a long time till another General Election” and that’s it in a nutshell they don’t care a jot about anything that comes out of their mouths because they’ll change it later anyway

    Take your pick of which of the two English parties lie the best and vote for that, is what they’re saying

    There is one thing however I have noticed on which there is no disagreement or difference between both of these charlatan political parties, they don’t want any immigrants at all
    Caroline Flint says she voted remain but we must give the people what they want and they clearly said we don’t want any more immigration and it must be stopped
    “Even the Afro Carribeans don’t want them” says Kate Hoey

  195. Fireproofjim says:

    Under no circumstances go back to Off Topic. ( Unless threatened with hammers)
    Your links are one of the most important resources on this site.
    I agree there has been a bit too much friendly socialising on the site lately, but Nana and Robert and Ian B and Ken 700 and so many others are on message and vital to spreading the word.
    When posting I always try to think if my post will contribute to the cause in some small way and to avoid personal trivia.

  196. Fireproofjim says:

    That should be “Nana” off course.

  197. Alec Beverage @ 10.47 am.
    ‘It doesn’t matter who leads the Labour Party, either nationally, or in Scotland,’
    I’m sure that your use of ‘nationally’ and ‘in Scotland’ merely reflect decades of involuntary brainwashing by the Unionist Establishment.
    On the observations here that we have all become a wee bit too chatty, I don’t agree.
    The Rev’s site is not merely a forum for smoke filled political zealots.
    I love the sense that all views are welcome and tolerated, within reason, and that a sense of gentle debate and bluster has developed.
    I have a sense that those visiting for the first time will experience this and not be scared off because we are not all flesh eating Nats.

    The site is the child of genius of Stuart Campbell, warts ‘n’ all; and he has a few ‘warts’. He supports Aberdeen FC, foxache!

    If I want to tub thump, there are other Militant Reactionary Shoot All the Landlords Belted Earls and Bankers sites which I can visit.

    Keep it real, folks.

    This, and several other pro Self Determination blogs are excellent, and the perfect antidote to the Dead Tree Scrolls’ and Broadcast Propaganda’s poison, misinformation and lies.
    OT. Finely dice onions, carrots, celery….after all; Life is a minestrone.

  198. mike cassidy says:

    My 9.34 re the Brewer/Jamieson clash.

    I missed off the link

    and my post supplying it seems never to have reached its destination.

    So for those who want to see Brewer ‘losing’ it in 2007

    circa 4.25

  199. cirsium says:

    @manandboy, 10.41

    “I don’t know of anyone apart from Yanis Varoufakis who is able to do that.”

    What about Mark Blyth?

  200. Breeks says:

    The Labour Party has been selling us a pup for decades. All noise, no substance. No critical analysis of shallow policy.

    Better Together was a study in ineptitude, again, all noise, no substance. No critical analysis of shallow policy and outright dishonesty.

    Do we really have to go through the process with habitual rebranding and relaunches of Tory Ruth Davidson, all noise, no substance, no critical analysis? It’s the same old shit, it’s just the colour of the backdrop will be different. We will still get the Unionist rent-a-gob telling us how hopeless we are and how Westminster is such a generous no pain-no gain benefactor.

    Please. Break the mould. Work with Europe, step forward with purpose, go out of our way to set up 2, maybe 3 EU summits to be held here in Scotland next year so that EU figureheads and their supporting Press pack are physically here, making news, and making international headlines from right here in Scotland; headlines which we can access before they are filtered for anti-blue or anti-red or pro independence narrative by the Queen’s favourite propaganda channel on its mission to promote UK collaboration and subvert all dissent.

    We need a cacophony of news reports, interviews, prepared statements, live debates, pictures, smiles, hand shakes, Euro flags and Saltires… So much media “product” that UK media is the sideshow to the main event and tasked to suppress European news, not just Scottish nation building dialogue. The BBC might dominate us, but they surely can’t dominate us AND Europe if we are determined that they they shouldn’t.

    We can see what is happening. We have precedent to forewarn us of what happens next. Now is the time to react, and play our hand differently with the benefit of knowing what has happened before. Do not stand alone and frustrated that we can’t get a fair hearing. Bring Europe to us. Once they understand what Scotland needs, they will help us, because helping us helps EU integration, and shines light on the path leading away from right wing extremism.

    Unless there are European eyes and ears in Scotland, from Journalists, politicians, right across the spectrum to electoral and media watchdogs, all Europe will see of us and our struggle for independence will be the daily dose of BBC Cod-liver-oil which Europe can only swallow by holding its nose.

    This is the big one. Let us please get it right and leave no effort unspent, no string un-pulled, no favour that isn’t called in.

    Let us master the art of initiative and master it quickly.

  201. Meindevon says:

    Nana…no please don’t go off topic with your great links!

    They are one of the best things about BTL on the Rev’s blog.

  202. North chiel says:

    Well said “Breeks” at 1153 .Dont let history “repeat itself” re Indyref2 . Know your enemy
    and the ” propaganda war” waged by BT which ” tipped the balance” . An effective strategy must
    be found to counter the similar tactics which will be employed by the unionists next time around.
    Your thinking on this is so very relevant and credible.

  203. Ananurhing says:

    Nana @11.02

    For what it’s worth. Many thanks. The links provided by you and others are gems for which I am always grateful.

    I wouldn’t see them in off topic.

  204. DerekM says:

    Just caught the perspective preview fantastic work guys i hope you plan to release these films in DVD format,Rev this needs a punt and i cant think of a better cause than the new media and anyway isnt it time we kick started a massive long term crowdfund for indyref2.

    Its a coming and we should start now plus it might give us wingers a bit more focus after the car crash politics and smear and lies campaigns we have been scrapping plus it will drive the yoons even dafter if that`s possible 😉

  205. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Nana As a long time poster on Wings you will be well aware the Rev watch’s everything closely, O/T isn’t the place for your valuable links keep posting on the main thread please.O/Ts for the night owls an am a early bedder noo (sometimes) .

    Big Hugs xx.

  206. Capella says:

    @ Nana – great links. Especially the Yemen Human Rights info and Boris blocking it. Disgrace of a man and what an embarrassment to have him as UK Foreign Sec. The UK and US are very busy whipping up anti-Russian propaganda but ignore Saudi and Israeli violations. Arms manufacturers rules IMO.

    I missed your links when they were on Off Topic as I only visit there occasionally. People can scroll by if they don’t want to click on them. I find them very relevant to the topics we are discussing.

    @ cirsium – do you habe a link for Mark Blyth? Manandboy is right about Yanis Varoufakis IMO but I haven’t come across Mark Blyth so the more the merrier!

  207. Breeks says:

    Summits, festival, mini-Expo, Trade fair… Get them all happening.

    There is a big Expo in Milan in 2015, let’s contact the organisers and have a Scottish Mini Expo to promote the Milan Expo. Have European States with individual pavilions, but mini pavilions, perhaps even just caravans, defined by their hasty design and ad hoc assembly. Food fairs, for Euro cuisine. Music. Arts.

    Contact business. Got a product launch planned and need a venue with a sense of occasion? Got a movie that needs a picturesque backdrop? Car show? Bike Show? Round Scotland motor Rally?

    If there isn’t a festival, then invent one. If there is a festival, supercharge it by inviting half of Europe to come to it and take part.

    Don’t just plan for a referendum. Let us plan the whole year of build up before it happens and make it all as spontaneous as the time allows. Let us be a nation which is animated in its desire to remain in Europe, not sullen and depressed supping our BBC hogwash in the Last Chance Saloon.

    For once let’s leave our friends the Catalans wondering “Now why didn’t we think of that?”

    Get co-ordinated. Trawl Europe for their ideas and suggestions which coming to Scotland might invigorate.

    How does that sound for a to-do list alternative to leafleting Mealer?

  208. mike cassidy says:

    Capella 12.14

    Here’s the link to an interview with Mark (austerity is horeshit) Blyth.

  209. Capella says:

    @ Breeks – great ideas – you’ve got the job!

    Meanwhile, the BBC manage to write another article on “Outlander” and its amazing success, drawing in tourists etc, without once mentioning that it is not broadcast in the UK.
    BBC Alba are interviewing the author, Diana Gabaldon, on Thursday.

  210. Nana says:

    This is a long post for me, usually I’m rather quiet [not that my husband would agree]

    Last year sometime, I had a conversation with a lady and the chat came round to cybernats and this blog. Without her knowing I was one of the ‘cybernats’ I asked her if she had ever visited and mentioned that I did and never found anything nasty about it.

    I met up with her again at the start of this year and so I asked her if she’d been to the site. She had and still visits, was surprised to see that people were ordinary fed up folk who only want the truth known. Not at all the vile place she had been led to believe by the usual suspects.

    She has learnt a lot from being here, she does not comment and doubt she will but I will tell you this, she loves the humour among us cybernats and the fact that we are in the main thoughtful for the feelings of others and even sometimes have good things to say about the ‘other side’

    I think off topic is best used for chatting but heaven forbid we lose the human touch.

    Two more links before I go out to deliver the national survey.

    Read the comments

  211. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @mike cassidy –

    Cheers for the Brewer/Jamieson link, first time I’ve seen that.

    Jamieson hitched her wagon to a gang of shameless bawbags, but she knew how to defend her corner. Dugdale hasn’t a fraction of her ability when it comes to scrapping.

  212. louis.b.argyll says:

    Thanks Nana..all links much appreciated.

  213. Returnofthemac says:

    O/T well well well. The Royal Bank of Scotland. Is now going to be a Scotland only bank.Apparently toxic down south. What happened to the threat of 2 years ago about moving to the great metropolis? How will the BBC spin this one?
    They will no longer sponsor the 6 nations or that great British tennis player (when he wins) Andy Murray.

  214. Breeks says:

    Woops… Got my dates wrong with Milan EXPO… cough cough, shuffle, shuffle..

  215. ronnie anderson says:

    Welcome all Lurkers, things you wont see on the Bbc or Corperate

  216. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Nana some fella wrote wrote ah song a while back ah think it wiz The Times They are Achanging, must hiv somebody like Kezia in mind when he wrote it , unlike Kezia it wiz a hit lol.

  217. louis.b.argyll says:

    Thought you got the year wrong..I
    was away to build myself a time-machine using a hydro-dam, an electric car and a fancy stone I found in the garden.

  218. Gfaetheblock says:


    I think you are getting confused between RBS retail brand and corporate entity.

  219. Camz says:

    People so quickly forget she was the deputy to ‘Fundily Mundily’.

    Yes, she was the less desirable option to the man who said “we won’t lose a single seat to the SNP”.

    Labour voters. Pick a new party and put this mess to bed.

  220. Greannach says:

    For the next leader of the autonomous Scottish branch of Labour, I nominate Kezia Dugdale. She’s doing a terrific job.

  221. K1 says:

    Well said Nana @ 12.36. The thing that ‘is’ so great about Wings is that it is full of ordinary people from varied backgrounds from all over Scotland and beyond and we all talk ‘conversationally’ with one another about our political reality in Scotland.

    I’d also like to add that we are a community, whether everyone has met or not, we have among us those who are young, elderly, unwell, fit and eager, chatty, politically astute, historians, stat geeks, economically literate, funny, annoyingly pedantic, easily offended, temperamentally default angry/happy/discontent/bemused…etc etc.

    There is room for everyone. None of what others are pointing out as ‘distracting’ is ‘offensive’ or in any way ‘detracting’ from this site’s purpose, imo. It’s human beings interacting ‘normally’ and don’t kid yersel’s that part of the genuine appeal of this site, is precisely as Nana pointed out:

    ‘…that we are in the main thoughtful for the feelings of others and even sometimes have good things to say about the ‘other side’’

    We are not ‘zoomers’, we are all Wingers.

  222. Ian Brotherhood says:

    BBC Shortbread yet again abusing the ‘news’ to punt trivia about the return of one of its dire programmes (i.e. ‘Shite About Cars’) on the basis that the guy who used to be in ‘Friends’ has signed a two-year contract.


  223. K1 says:

    Though I have to add I have nothing ‘good’ tae say about Dugdale…she made her bed, wanted to be a ‘somebody’ turns oot her ambitions soar far above her abilities: ‘doublespeakin’ mindtwistin’ irritatin’ wannabe.

  224. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Anyone who’s on Twitter – please help punt the living daylights out of this. What they’re doing is soo-perb.

    Time’s running out, but if anyone can do it, it’s us:

  225. One_Scot says:

    I’ve been at this game a good few years now, and I like to think I can quickly get the measure of people in terms of trolling and trojan trolling, and to be honest, I’m not seeing it.

    If it turns out they are genuine, and they decide not to come back, it’s hardly a great advertisement for our open arm, everyone is welcome policy.

  226. Breeks@ 11.53
    On the money, Breeks.
    We must not allow the Better Together liars dominate the debate again.
    I love the idea of EU summits here in Scotland.
    Doctors for Yes.
    Students for Yes
    Business for Yes
    Pensioners (esp) for Yes
    Mothers for Yes
    Health Workers for Yes

    You got my juices going there for a minute.
    I’ll need to sit down in a darkened room and watch an old Ealing Comedy.
    ‘School for Scoundrels’ comes to mind.
    Although that wasn’t strictly ‘Ealing’, was it?
    I’m getting too ‘chatty’ again?

  227. call me dave says:


    You keep those twinkly linky things going. 🙂

    Loved that Alex Neil idea.
    Read it in the Herald but couldn’t post.

    Still prefer full cream independence though!

    Has Deputy Deadwood spoken yet????

  228. Bob Mack says:

    Can anyone tell me how an apparently “autonomous” Scot lab Party, has to be voted for in the Labour NEC, to be given the opportunity of having a seat on the committee.
    It seems strange to me that the movers and shakers in Labour North of the border have not had a representative on the NEC until now. Were we not important enough back in the heady Labour days to require representation, or were we just taken for granted?

  229. Vambomarbeley says:

    Labour. Jam tomorrow if we are the next government.
    £10 living wage etc. It was pointed out that the economy only has to drop 0.5 and any saved EU money is wiped out.
    We all remember Brown with prudence and the end yo boom and bust.
    Vote labour and that’s exactly what you will get.
    I would not trust them with a piggy bank.

  230. yesindyref2 says:

    My post was about the less than 10 percent who attend meetings and trying to get them more interested. I think many of them, including me, aren’t too interested in party, so the canvassing etc. they (we) aren’t up for is to do with elections, NOT the Indy Ref. But from the party’s point of view, get them engaged, perhaps they’d join in more for ordinary party activities. One idea at the hustings was more training for canvassers etc. and who knows, they might go for that. One reason is of course, that the 90% probably don’t actually know the SNP policy on parking tickets, and aren’t particularly interested. I don’t even know if the SNP have such a policy!

    Ironically though, your question “what do you do”, is the very one I’d like to check out, and I might just go for the committee member thing tonight to try that out – me being a prime example of the “stay-aways” normally, I have something in common.

    @Clootie, @smallaxe, @Liz G
    Basically I think the Rev’s rule is don’t go off-topic in the first few postings underneath an article. Say, 20, 30 or 40. Then, like all threads all over the internet, they go off topic. But for a lurker they read the article, and maybe read those first 20 or so postings underneath to get an idea what regular posters think. If they read on after it’s 100 long, then I doubt they get angry about social chat, they either read it, or scroll past it.

  231. cirsium says:

    @Capella, 12.14

    Mark Blyth’s interview on The Press Project (Greek News for a Global Audience)

    Mark Blyth’s Mackenzie lecture at the University of Glasgow- Austerity and the Politics of Money- starts 8 minutes in

  232. heedtracker says:

    Can anyone tell me how an apparently “autonomous” Scot lab Party, has to be voted for in the Labour NEC, to be given the opportunity of having a seat on the committee.

    It looks like its the ongoing red tory v JC war. JC wants to do the same as he’s done the PLP and reach around to the CLP, in England, Scotland and Wales. Its working so far as, red tory Holyrood Barbie sweats it out.

    Not sure if a reach around from any of SLab is that appealing though, unless you’re Keith Vaz maybe:D

  233. yesindyref2 says:

    @call me dave
    Yes, it looks like a well-orchestrated campaign to let the SG put out all options, without having to endorse any of them. We’ve got Neil now, we’ve had McAskill, Salmond elsewhere. I guess even Wilson and Sillars are doing their job.

  234. Dr Jim says:

    John McDonell repeats half of Nicola Sturgeons words almost verbatim and the Labour party applauds wildly
    In the House of Commons that same party votes with the Tories against those same policies spoken by SNP MPs

    Anti Scottish or Anti Scotland or just Anti unless they say they thought of it
    Tomorrow the Labour party will discuss tax rises in Scotland while
    at the same time injecting money into England

  235. ronnie anderson says:

    Look past the Beep bit A Welsh perspective.

  236. Fred says:

    Say what you like about Jackie Baillie but she would have made a much better job of the Brewer interview than Dugdale!

    Carolyn Leckie has an excellent piece in todays National on the uselessness of Labour in Scotland.

  237. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Agree with all the comments regarding Nana’s links.


    Please keep them on the live thread.


    Proud Cybernat,

    Please keep your imgur pics on the live link as well.

    I find they complement the debate on the threads well and add a welcome dose of humour.

  238. galamcennalath says:

    Bob Mack says:

    “Can anyone tell me how an apparently “autonomous” Scot lab Party, has to be voted for in the Labour NEC, to be given the opportunity of having a seat on the committee”

    IMO The reality is BLiS is autonomous for devolved matters only. In everything else they are subservient to Labour HQ who make all the real decisions. That of course includes the status of BLiS and its relationship with HQ.

    The spin targeting gullible voters is that the autonomy enters the reserved zone.

    The problems are multiple. Foremost, there are gullible Scots out there! Also, it is clear BLiS politicians don’t always seem clear what is, or isn’t, devolved. While BLiS aren’t officially authorised to speak on reserved matters, the SNP have no issues doing so.

    What may have changed is toleration by HQ that BLiS can speak with a Scottish voice on any matter, like Trident. And being a Scottish voice, it will be ignored like every other Scottish voice!

  239. geeo says:

    Unless my sarcasm detector has utterly failed me, how do you figure that one ?

    Jabba would do her thing…interlink her fingers, flutter her eyes at Brewer, and, with her best seductive lilt in her voice, softly purr to Brewer…Gordon….come on….you and i both know thats simply not true…..prr…prrrrr…prrrrrr……meowww..

    That vile woman has the art of passive aggressive seduction of folk called Gordon Brewer, down to a a lion toying with a baby antelope…!

    SNAP !!!!!!!!

    eeww….yikes….(cold sweat)…boy was THAT a scary afternoon nap……!!!

  240. TheItalianJob says:

    @Nana Keep posting your links here

    Excellent sources of information to keep us all informed.

    Good article on NewsNet by Alex Neil MSP on how Scotland can take the initiative on Brexit and get our demands met which should lead to full sovereignty.

    Way to go.

  241. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Breeks says at 11:53 am

    But how do we get them here or even aware of the differences?

    Surely an alternative media broadcast during a prime time slot which accurately reflects the current state of Scotland politically and culturally on the mainstream channels could be commissioned??

    Given the demand for such a programme surely someone more savvy with the workings of the broadcast media could pitch a format/show to the execs.

    Remember when C4 and even C5 were considered edgy and risk takers??

  242. yesindyref2 says:

    Yea, keep posting the links. Sometimes I click them, sometimes I don’t, I always look at them.

  243. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Breeks says at 12:24 pm

    RE: Summits there is a big one in Malta, 3rd February 2017.

    Scots Gov, or an apolitical Scottish Business consortium should all be there.

    Highly visible showing we are open for business be it import, export or investment.

    Also a Wings Road show as discussed here by various contributors which will cover the length and breadth of Scotland to bring the articles we all view here to the masses and allow for Q&A.


  244. heedtracker says:

    Its as toryboy odd as ever today. Last week kenfarq of the London Times came up with his existential nationalist slam. This week, Times toryboy goes to and says Scotland is, the next Zimbabwe! From a torboy what never ever stops grinching about Scots who want independence from him, basically, he goes for a holiday to Zimbabwe, and thinks of nothing but Scottish independence.

    Waiting game endangers Sturgeon’s credibility
    alex massie

    The first minister’s coyness over a new independence vote could lose her the support of those she most needs to win over

    In retrospect, Zimbabwe was a sub-optimal holiday destination for a man tired of nationalism. Earlier this month, as I was playing cricket in Bulawayo, came fresh rumours that Robert Mugabe had finally died. This, like previous intimations of the old brute’s demise, proved exaggerated but, just for a moment, Zimbabweans glimpsed the tantalising, if still uncertain, sight of their post-Mugabe future.”

    Toryboy’s on their hols say SNP bad, shock, from Zimbabwe, is the rest of it.

  245. Jockanese Wind Taker.@ 2.41 pm
    I just caught BBC News Where You are lunch time broadcast.
    There appears to be a 24 hour delay in transmission.

    Yesterday’s news that King Corbyn had failed in a bid to block the SO Called Scottish Labour Party’s bid for being a lot more pregnant was defeated at NEC level.

    The fact that the proposal has still to be put to a hall full of Corbyn’s marauders tomorrow was ‘mumbled’ over.

    We had a ‘will say’ paragraph about Kezia’s speech later today.

    She will say that she will force an amendment to the Scottish Government’s tax proposals: 1p in the £, and a 5% tax hike for the top earners.

    She really has lost it, if this latest ‘willsay’ is correct.

    Their late post postal votes manifesto in May threatened tax rises, and she and her party were pulverised at the SGE.
    But, hey, fuck the democratic will of the Scottish people. Kezia knows best.

    Some may ask;- is she a complete blithering idiot now?

    Some may, but I couldn’t possibly comment.

    The Tribe That Lost Its Head right enough.

    But BBC News Where You Are carry on regardless, reporting this ‘baloney’ without editorial comment.

    NHS Grampian surgeons cleared. Isn’t that where Eleanor Bradford is now?

  246. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Garry Smith GMB Union on BBC just now:

    We should allow fracking rather than “getting our gas from henchman, hangmen or head choppers in Russia and the Middle East as North Sea gas is running out and we are importing fracked gas from the US into Scotland tomorrow”

    He also said that renewal of Trident “is common sense as no one has said where the jobs that will be lost by not renewing it would come from”

    UKOK very hard push for fracking (Alexander Burnett on one in the P&J today in a very similar vein to Garry Smith) maybe Westminster needs the tax this would raise due to the economic nuclear winter AKA clusterf**k that is Brexit on the horizon.

  247. Breeks says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker…

    Once the media exists, and by that I mean high ranking commentaries from big players, it can be downloaded, shared, burned onto CD… Or broadcast in Europe. Don’t expect it to moderate the BBC, but at worst the UKOK monopoly on broadcasting would hopefully be broken. If big stories are being heard about, but not broadcast on the BBC, then people who want to stay current will find alternative sources.

    It would also be a two way process. Pro Indy news getting out, but also Europe seeing what we are up against, and Europe in that context my be European journalists asking poignant questions about BBC integrity.

    Between the two, I don’t think the BBC would get away with its narrative to anything like the same extent without being a laughing stock, and becoming a byword for corrupt journalism.

    Even if nothing changes, and God forbid Indyref2 is as big a con job as Indyref1, at least we don’t have the SNP isolated and maligned over sour grapes defeat, but we have credible corroboration that the result might be tainted by dishonest and manipulative propaganda. You have stronger grounds to challenge a flawed result, but abused democratic process might also assist with International recognition of any last resort UDI.

  248. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    heedtracker says at 1:53 pm

    Keith Vaz reach around 🙁

    Jesus man!

    I’m going to have to scrub my brain with a large cake of carbolic soap to get rid of that mental image.

  249. yesindyref2 says:

    Waiting game endangers Sturgeon’s credibility
    alex massie

    Two of Massie’s favourite words are “intellectual” because he thinks he is one, and “credibility” because he thinks he has any.

  250. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Jack Collatin says at 3:00 pm

    Eleanor Bradford is now employed as Head of Communications at University of Aberdeen and states that previously she was:

    Health Correspondent at BBC Scotland, Broadcast Journalist at BBC Scotland, Senior Broadcast Journalist at BBC News Channel and an award-winning journalist with 20 years experience in health and the media with excellent contacts in health, science, the media and politics.

    Aye I’ll bet her media and political contacts will be the best that UKOK money can buy 🙂

    NHS Grampian now has Dame Anne Begg (Better Together campaign ally of the National Front) on it’s board of Directors.

    Well she couldn’t cope after she got her jotters in May 2015 and lost her army of helper and had to deal with life like a normal disabled mortal.

  251. Nana says:

    UK appears headed for ‘hard Brexit’, Scots minister says after talks

    He’s got some cheek

    IanMurrayMP tells #Lab16 fringe he’ll serve in shad cab if Corbyn “rips up the deselection list kept in top drawer in the leader’s office”

  252. Vestas says:

    Given that pretty much every English constituency is having the boundaries redrawn (no bad thing either given population changes) I’d expect a purge of the most red of the red tories.

    Unless people really want red tories in the Labour party then you can’t have people like Liz Kendall being an MP, simple as that. She can go find her true place in the tories or whatever.

    If the tories tried a putsch and failed on this scale then there would be a large intake of MPs in in the next election. No drama, just a lot of “whips gossip” leaked to the constituency party & a new candidate put in place.

    Revenge is a dish best served cold after all. Plenty of time for payback within Labour 😀

  253. Breeks says:

    @Nana 3:46

    That first link is a bit bizarre.

    SNP minister in Paris telling Reuters Paris about Brexit talks between Mike Russell and David Davis in the UK some time during last 10 days, about it looking like a hard Brexit.

    So that’s domestic Brexit news, 10 days late, and coming from Paris.

    Nobody at the BBC working that day?

  254. Fred says:

    That will be the Eleonor Bradford who cleverly designated the new multi-million pound Southern General, “The Death Star!” then?

  255. Hamish100 says:

    The Herald reporting that “Sturgeon does not have a nmandar to hold a second independence vote, says No 10.

    I enquire further. Thankfully others have arrived before me to show that the Herald is of course writing porkies.

    How scummy can journalists at the Herald get. May elected by less than 200 of her fellow tory brexiters!!

    I don’t buy the Herald anymore. It used to have quality journalists but no longer.

  256. Hamish100 says:

    Bradford is pally with Pennington of the tory No fame based at Aberdeen Univ.

    Tories helping tories?

    Prince Charlies bidy-in is the patronage for the University. They phone parents etc for monies to help the University at the same time promoting brit unionism.

    Bradford will enjoy herself.

  257. yesindyref2 says:

    I suspect the SNP is finally getting good at news management.

    Not only that, it’s July’s news regurgitated. I suspect the journalist has failed to take his Settlers for indigestion. He keeps repeating himself!

  258. arthur thomson says:

    Now that it is officially a function of the BBC to openly oppose Scottish independence, I think they want to clear Ms Dugdale out of the way in order to promote the union through the leader of the nasty party in Scotland.

    It is also apparent that the red tories are shifting their allegiance to its proper place with the nasty party. An alliance of all the nasties is going to fight the Council elections against the SNP.

    It is going to be an acid test.

  259. heedtracker says:

    Just caught end of Kez speech to conference, wild cheers for Labour are most progressive, democratic and greatest party ever in the UK, but they will not allow ref 2 in their Scotland region. So much for that Labour and democracy thing then.

  260. Papadox says:

    Kezia had the Engerlish labour conference members dancing in the aisles, not. The main problem was Kez talks p*sh and the conference members had’nt a clue about Scottish politics. All they heard from Kez is “Nicola Sturgeon BAAADD.”

    N.B. THE ESTABLISHMENT ARE PETRIFIED OF INDYREF 2. Anything will be done to prevent it, ANYTHING!

  261. Nana says:


    Ach Breeks sure they were working that day, just not for us. I don’t think they told us Fiona is in Paris either, did I miss that announcement.

    Dipping in and out of Dugdales speech at the labour thingy, one lie after another. Big black hole, and all the usual guff, does she really think folks can not hear and see her. No wonder slab are tanking.

    Oh and the snp are baaaad

  262. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Fred says at 4:07 pm

    Aye Fred, bang on.

    The self same Eleanor “Death Star” Bradford who as Health Correspondent at BBC Scotland kept the SNHS knee deep in FOI requests.

    Strangely enough she couldn’t bear to report the A&E waiting times compared to rUK NHS.

  263. maureen says:

    As a relative newbie to this site, I have to say that the banter and humour between the contributers is what makes this site a head above the rest. I don’t post much but I like to read the comments, makes me feel a part of something if that makes sense.
    I know at some point reading the comments that I will be educated on something I didn’t know or laugh out loud at something said. Please don’t lose that, it’s what gives this site the human touch. I look forward to coming onto Wings daily, not many political sites (if any other than wings) has that appeal.

  264. Meindevon says:

    K1 @ 1.04.

    Can’t say I disagree with any of what you said.

    (However the Rev’s rules are the Rev’s rules, he has hammers you know!) …winky smiley face thingy.

  265. heedtracker says:

    Dunc’s got a new twitter photo up but he’s not saying much red tory conference wise. His “devolutionist” twitter biog thing is surely red tory sarcasm. You don’t get much SLab info out of guys like Dunc these days, other than links to Euan McSpanner’s horrible hootsman far right UKOK stuff, which isn’t worth repeating but Euan thinks George Osborne’s a genius.

  266. heedtracker says:

    Neither is Bliar saying much but he says live in the real world and look at this lovely new Clyde built boat, which would never have been built by Scotland running Scotland. Its just that its billions and billions of RN Clyde built type 26 investment short of what Bliar’s Project Fear 2014 threatened us with losing, if we voted YES. Rejoice.

    In reply to Jaggy_BothVotesSNP
    Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall 2h2 hours ago
    .@jaggythistle50 @45albannach it helps if you pay attention to real world rather than frothing Twitter. Here’s a ship launched 2 weeks ago.

  267. yesindyref2 says:

    There’s an occasional poster in the Herald (CP), not really a unionist just interested in defence, whose eyebrows nearly fell off his face at the Herald’s description of HMS Forth as a “complex warship”.

    Very nice, but still just an OPV.

  268. yesindyref2 says:

    Good grief. Just read from Glasgow Live end of August: “Iain Stevenson, Managing Director at BAE Systems Naval Ships … “She is the first complex warship to benefit from the new technologies and methods …”

    Ah well, she must be complex.

    Actually, I’ll have to look up her full spec.

  269. galamcennalath says:

    TheItalianJob says:

    “Good article on NewsNet by Alex Neil MSP on how Scotland can take the initiative on Brexit and get our demands met which should lead to full sovereignty.”

    It is a good article. However, I think he is saying the SG should put forward a coherent and sensible plan while WM are acting clueless.

    Whether we will “get our demands met” from the bunch of hard right GreaterEnglanders in WM is quite another matter. A hae me doots, and I suspect Alex Neil has too. Remember, that lot think Scotland has got too good a financial deal as things stand.

    AN’s suggestion is that not only EU powers come to Scotland, but so does the associated money. Many Tories would blow a fuse at the prospect of any additional funding for Scotland, I reckon.

    Personally, I think it’s part of a general approach where the SG looks completely reasonable, and WM are made to look totally unreasonable when they say “bu99er off, sweaties”.

  270. gus1940 says:

    Today I have accessed and studied the following web pages:-


    Although there is no shortage of Dugdale stories in every one anybody depending on these outlets for information would be blissfully unaware of her car crash interview with Gordon Brewer on yesterday’s Sunday Politics Scotland.

    In addition I would be surprised if there was any mention in the Scottish editions of the London blats.

    We continually complain about anti-SNP bias in the media and the lies and misreportng associated with that. However, what is seldom mentioned is NON-reporting which is equally disgraceful and dangerous with the above being a classic example.

  271. heedtracker says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    26 September, 2016 at 5:08 pm

    Bliar will go down in Scotland’s history as one the greatest yoon liars but Project Fear’s vote NO for RN frigate fleet build is up there as one of his greatest lies. Although Bliar will tell us that’s all just frothing and not in the real world. Clyde ship yards look dead now though.

    If RN type 26 frigate fleet is indefinitely postponed, not cancelled, how much is it costing to keep the yards open and idle and could they be building a modern effective Scottish navy?

    It’s a query to rattle UKOK dudes like Bliar’s china teacups. So we’ll never hear it asked.

  272. Flower of Scotland says:

    I love the way this blog goes. Proper dissection of news events by the Rev, great links and lots of humour.

    Please continue Nana with your links and Proud Cybernat, please continue your great photos!

  273. heedtracker says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:
    26 September, 2016 at 3:20 pm
    heedtracker says at 1:53 pm

    Keith Vaz reach around

    Hey don’t knock it til try it. Its just very er strange, watching SLab dude like Dr Scott Thinks going berserk at Mhairi Black for travel expenses. But christ knows how much a couple of prozzies, poppers and charlie costs, for your Labour style Vazian Westminster liggers. Wonder how they claim back all that expenseserising?

  274. Dave Robb says:

    @ Heedtracker-

    Bliar is a plonker.

    HMS Forth is not a complex warship. It’s small – about 1500 tons – compared to a Type 26 at 4500 or Type 45 at 7000. It carries no anti-aircraft missiles (SAMs), no surface-to-surface missiles (SSMs), no anti submarines weapons of its own, and has a 30mm canon which is essentially a machine gun on steroids – think WW2 torpedo boats rather than destroyers. It has a helicopter deck, but no hanger -for the North Atlantic!

    It may be expensive compared to its competitors but it won’t be more effective

    The role requires seaworthiness, endurance, speed faster than a trawler, a radar set, and a small gun. Fassmer can do a cheap and effective one for £25-40 million. Iceland ran rings round the RN with a couple of converted tugboats and trawlers.

    In terms of “complex” warships, poor little Denmark population 5 and a bit million, and blessed by never having had much N Sea oil and gas requiring “broad shoulders” to look after it for them has built five 6000 ton vessels fitted with varying combinations of long and middle range SAMS, Harpoon SSMs with 60+ mile range 1-2 helicopters with suitable hangars, 2 better machine canons, anti-submarine torpedoes, a very large dual purpose gun and all the appropriate sensors and radars, and the ability for 2 of them to carry tanks vehicles and troops. They also have several other vessels bigger and better armed than HMS Forth. A comparison with Norway is equally revealing.

    It’s not Scotland’s size nor technical competence that is the issue, nor affordability.

    It comes back to having the power of an independent nation to choose what to do.

  275. heedtracker says:

    Dave Robb says:
    26 September, 2016 at 5:52 pm
    @ Heedtracker-

    Bliar is a plonker.

    HMS Forth is not a complex warship.

    Its a North Sea oil and gas platform supply boat, with armour, but with a lot less sophisticated propulsion. Norwegian shipyards build hundreds of them. Only in Scotland do we have to listen to UKOK Bliar type 26 bullshit artists ,shrieking how great and amazing it is, that the UK in Scotland can build one. Rejoice.

  276. galamcennalath at 5.26

    Yes, and we should suggest we can help them by taking the oil industry and the associated revenues off their hands as well.

  277. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dave Robb
    hehe. Yes, but it can actually carry a Merlin / (or Lynx I think)!

    Ah, here we go, and I guess it does qualify her for “complex warship”:

    They will also be the first ships to be built with a BAE Systems designed, new state-of-the-art operating system called Shared Infrastructure, which will be rolled out across the Royal Navy’s surface fleet over the next ten years. Shared Infrastructure revolutionises the way ships operate by using virtual technologies to host and integrate the sensors, weapons and management systems that complex warships require. By replacing multiple large consoles dedicated to specific tasks with a single hardware solution, the amount of spares which are required to be carried onboard is reduced, significantly decreasing through-life costs.

  278. Vestas says:

    Ermmm hello peeps – you’re quoting a BAE mouthpiece?

    This is a company thats too corrupt for the biggest arms market in the world – the USA.

    BAE (& Marconi in their delusional stage) destroyed any “native” capability for “defence”.

    Everyone other than BAE is gone – Racal (RRDS) was the last with radar/sensors sold first to the French then the Israelis.

    BAE are scum. They’re not even competent scum though…

  279. yesindyref2 says:

    The MOD is not very vocal, but I’d guess that’s a possible reason for the delay to the T26. The operating system can be properly tested out on the Forth, and then rolled on to the T26 when they’re constructed. Just a guess, but the T26 is supposedly delayed because of design problems (rather than cost), this could be one of them.

  280. ronnie anderson says:

    Stv reporting Grangemouth is a Lossmaking plant , ? When since more. Lies to justify Fracking

  281. Robert Louis says:

    O/T, Hope nobody objects,

    This funding drive, which just needs a bigger push is, in my opinion worthwhile. Every single pound counts, as they say..

    Just 14 hours to go.

  282. yesindyref2 says:

    (HMS Forth)
    That makes her, in a way, first in class for the T26, at least in the way of operating system and systems integration. Perhaps for once the MOD is being efficient.

    *washes mouth out with soap*

  283. K1 says:

    Aye Meindevon as yesindyref2 said it’s fine after the first initial 20 or so comments then a bit of off topicking is general practice…christ we need it to keep sane!!

    Actual smiley winky thing: semi colon ; lower case dash – followed by closed bracket ) Meindevon…altogether: 🙂

  284. K1 says:

    Och that was an accidental full colon application which gave a non winky smiley face thing, here’s the actual winky one 😉

  285. yesindyref2 says:

    (HMS Forth again)
    Actually she’s also got CMS-1 same as the T45 (Combat Management System). Brazil and Thailand got the same.

    After an ex SG of NATO and then even a current one did the craven help Cameron bit and said iScotland would join the back of the queue, I though something along the lines of “oh what a pity I’m sure I’ll carefully consider what NATO has to say”, or fkof in short.

    So what do we need if we don’t contribute to NATO stretching its muscles? Shelter of some sort as the Icelandic Institute said, or perhaps some speciality taht keeps us immune. But for ourselves maybe as few as 5-6 OPVs, a damn sight cheaper than 4 or 5 frigates of the T26 capability. Maybe something as a flagship, I’d like something like an Albion / Bulwark. Cut the annual budget from £2.5 billion to less than £2 billion – and that’s me – a defence nutjob – saying that.

    But in any case, YES2 should have two defence plans and budgets, one as part of NATO, one not. Then NATO can GTF if it decides it doesn’t care about the GIUK gap and want to try to intimidate us into a NO vote. That REALLY hacked me off for its sheer stupidity as much as anything else.

  286. Dave Robb at 5.52

    The last time I checked Norway had 42 armed vessels in its waters most of them built or mostly built in Norwegian yards.
    Scotland has none. The only maritime nation without a navy.
    Perhaps we can ask Ireland to help.

  287. harry mcaye says:

    Robert Louis – I contributed earlier. Agreed, a very worthwhile cause. I spent a wee while today watching some of their videos. Very high quality stuff. Especially liked the interviews with Derek Bateman and Paul Kavanagh but what really stood out was the amazing 15 year old cartoonist from Washington DC who has an astonishing knowledge of the independence movement. For anyone on twitter, she’s well worth a follow.

  288. X_Sticks says:

    No apologies for continuing to punt this because I think it is really important.

    We complain endlessly about the MSM but when something comes along that could begin to challenge their monopoly it fails to get our support.

    Doesn’t look like we’re going to do this, still short of 50% and only 12 hours to go.

    Have a look at the quality of this output and the clever way it is presented.

    I think it is the beginnings of the new media the we so desperately need.

    I know many of you will already have contributed, but if you can possibly spare a little more please help.

    PERSPECTIVE: “A series of documentary films covering Scotland’s journey to independence. Who is involved, what will our country look like, how will our economy work, where is our place in Europe? Exploring the big questions behind Scotland’s democratic revolution.”

  289. carjamtic says:

    Idle chit chit,is not just a psychological necessity,requisite to the construction of the complete human being;it constitutes a sort of political space,a space,as necessary,to the workings of an actual democracy,as say,free speech.

    How does it do this ?….by allowing us all time,to smile,before considering what is unjust and what we want to do about it.

    I distrust the perpetually busy Yoon Media,frenetically,spinning in their tight little circles,like poisoned rats.The slower ones grinding away their four score and ten,in faux self-righteousness and pain,I argue robustly,they are the soul eaters,not BTL posters on WoS.

    Go paint a moustache on someone’s face on a painting,stick a cone on top of a statue… means nothing…it means everything….do it with style And a smile.


  290. Capella says:

    @ cirsium – thanks for Mark Blyth links. Just got back so will now check them out. 🙂

  291. heedtracker says:

    Dave Robb

    Dave you’re not the great Davie Robb are you?! Great days Davie.

  292. Arabs for Independence says:

    Just contributed to PERSPECTIVE

    Looks very worthwhile, interesting and good quality

  293. Capella says:

    The PERSPECTIVE fund is growing fast. Now nearly £10,000 (of £18,000 goal) with 12 hours left. Wingers must have chucked in quite a lot in the half hour it took me to watch their excellent film:

  294. Tam Jardine says:

    Dave McEwan Hill 7.37pm

    You make a very important point on the lack of vessels defending our waters. The bottom line on defence spending is that we get absolutely stiffed. We have very little to show for the £3 billion allocated against Scottish expenditure.

    You look at Norway and Denmark- not only do they have far more armed forces stationed in their countries- they have far more army, airforce and naval bases. They have the colleges, the training facilities and all the trappings of having independent armed forces.

    We have had conventional forces cut back to the bone and now we’re pumping more dough into more floating armageddon devices built in Barrow carrying US missiles and warheads produced in Aldermaston and Burghfield, Berkshire. We’ll keep them 20 miles from Glasgow and the old ones will no doubt end up rotting over the water from our capital in Rosyth with the rest of the old subs.

    If you were trying to come up with a strategy to minimise the economic benefits of military spending, minimise the conventional forces defending the country and maximise the risks to the civilian population you would pursue the current strategy.

  295. galamcennalath says:

    “You can’t pay your bills with a Saltire” — Findlay warning to nationalists

    … And does Neil Findlay think you can pay bills with his bloody beloved Union Flag?

    Unionists wave their butchers apron at every opportunity. Why? Because they like the red, white & blue colour scheme? No. It’s because they are fanatical nationalists!

    Why won’t the accept that?

    No Unionist is in a position to lecture anyone about nationalism!

  296. Free Scotland says:

    I just read this rubbish over on the Herald’s website:

    “Scottish secretary David Mundell has called on the First Minister to rule out a second poll, saying it was creating a great deal of business uncertainty following the Brexit vote.”

    Fluffy seems to have the knack of woolly thinking. Why won’t the tories just admit that the widespread business uncertainty stems directly from the Brexit vote? It was the Eton toffs and other tory UKIP-appeasers who made Scotland’s already febrile and undesirable union with England utterly repugnant.

    I have a feeling that a repeat of the love-bombing we received from the likes of Simon Cowell, Eddie Izzard, Davina McCall and Ross Kemp will ring rather hollow the second time round.

    Inhabitants of Scotland, unite – you have nothing to lose but your chains.


  297. call me dave says:

    Catching up 🙁

    She… ‘May’ be confused and a bit scared! C’mon Nicola!

    Nicola Sturgeon does not have a mandate to hold a second independence vote, says No 10

    Shadow defence secretary Clive Lewis ‘punched wall after Trident speech changed’

  298. Returnofthemac says:

    Gfaetheblock …. Point taken. It was the front cover of the daily lie sheet. I could only glance at it and then I have to avert my eyes in case I am turned to stone.

  299. Dave Robb says:


    I was in Aberdeen and well remember “the hard-running Robb”- it wisnae me though, my footie was very amateur.

    I play fiddle rather than football!

  300. ScottishPsyche says:

    Now UK Labour want just access to the Single Market not membership. Everything is just talk, principles easily divested in the quest for power. Mealy mouthed platitudes about solidarity across nations and all that ‘comrade’ shit. Can you even eat a Red flag?

    Is there a single core belief that Slab have not given up on? Apart from the Union that is.

  301. gerry parker says:

    Arthur Thomson at 4:20.

    “It is also apparent that the red tories are shifting their allegiance to its proper place with the nasty party. ”

    In the recent by election in Coatbridge ward 6, when the Conservative votes were re-allocated according to 2nd preference, 81% of them went to the Labour candidate.

    Didn’t make any difference to the result, but you can see that under the skin, they’re the same.

  302. Glesca Keelie says:

    Dave Robb says:
    26 September, 2016 at 5:52 pm

    Yes, I got talking to a matelot before the Ref. Usual pish, how could we have a Navy, us, Jockland.

    Asked him if he was online. Yup. Then go look at the Danish Navy website and prepare to fall on your arse.

    Couple of days ago, got talking to a, lets just call him a working class guy. Scotland could Not build a Navy. If Trident went, where would it go. No my problem, pal. How about the Thames. Naw, they widnae like it, Just smile and move on.

  303. CameronB Brodie says:

    “suggestion that nationalism and identity politics are the same thing is vacuous” – Duncan Hothersall

    Sorry Dunc. Nice pic but you’re still wrong-headed.


    M. Huysseune
    Department of Political Science, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Belgium


    Nationalism is a multi-faceted phenomenon. Expressing both claims for recognition and for superiority, it is marked by an intrinsic moral ambivalence. Politically, its emergence has coincided with the affirmation of liberal and democratic ideas, and in particular the notion of popular sovereignty. It expresses the political identification of citizens with their state, and the policies of governments to reinforce such identification. It is based on the existence of a shared national identity, relying on the presence of historical, cultural, language or religious bonds. However, because of the imperfect congruence of states and national identities, nationalism has also developed outside and against nation-state, to affirm the rights of minorities……

    Remember Dunc, your perspective relies upon and perpetuates the dehistoricisation and universality (symbolic violence) inherent in British nationalism.

    You deny my humanity bud and that isn’t cool.

  304. Tinto Chiel says:

    galamcennalath says:
    “You can’t pay your bills with a Saltire” — Findlay warning to nationalists.

    Thanks for putting that on here. What an idiotic statement. The calibre of BLiS______d is truly dire and I am amazed even 16% of the electorate support them.

    Britnats like this are beyond reason, I’m afraid. I can’t even be bothered getting raging any more.

  305. Capella says:

    @ cirsium – that was certainly an excellent talk by Mark Blyth. I won’t pretend to have understood all the economics at the start. It would help if the video had the slides reproduced for viewing online.

    Nevertheless, great stuff and I will watch some of the others. later.

  306. ScottishPsyche says:

    Clive Lewis abstained on the recent Trident vote, so was he angry because he is in favour of Trident and the speech he had to give was ambiguous?

    Corbyn apparently now supporting UKLab position on Trident. Who is driving the Pro Trident sentiment in UK Labour? The Chicken coup people? The GMB Union?

    Does anyone have any idea what position these people have on anything?

  307. Connor McEwen says:

    Nana and Breeks an Rev stop fiddlin the buttons just print money it is dead easy. That is what the big country’s do, just keep on printing money and give it to those who do not need it.

    Nice posts though!

  308. galamcennalath says:

    Tinto Chiel says:

    “Britnats like this are beyond reason, I’m afraid.”

    This has been going on a long time. Orwell’s Notes on Nationalism are interesting. Even the great man is in complete denial about the nature of British Nationalism.

    He describes nationalism as identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests.

    If that isn’t a good description of British Nationaliism, then I don’t know what is. But he was referring to everywhere BUT Britain!

    He describes it as patriotism … Patriotism is of its nature defensive… Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power.

    IMO Orwell must have been totally brainwashed by BritNat propaganda of his day. British patriotism is good and wholesome, Everyone else’s nationalism is nasty.

    Sigh! Seventy years later and they still think that way!

  309. Phronesis says:

    If it was the spirit of Clem Atlee (PM 1945-51) who oversaw the introduction of the welfare state and the NHS making remarks about not doing a deal ‘with a party that wants to divide us on the basis of nation instead of uniting us on the basis of our class’-that might have credibility.

    But this is the voice of New Labour and its successor who have widened the inequality gap and have been the architects of an economic policy that has used public money to prop up a banking system to the detriment of the whole of the UK’s well-being.

    What is the rhetoric of the nationalists? Would that be the British nationalists who are addicted to wars and conflict, would spend grotesque amounts of money on redundant nuclear weapons, who serve the interests of the super wealthy, have failed to regulate corrupt financial institutions, are partnered with the MSM as their corporate mouthpiece to voice toxic rhetoric about their many ideological out-groups, who cannot seem to account for the non-existent sovereign wealth fund from decades of oil extraction (you know like the Norwegian nationalists who have managed to do just that), who will not admit their culpability in a war in the Middle East which continues to stoke a calamitous conflict across that region, who want to dismantle all state institutions and are content that most of its citizens belong to either the precariat or the squeezed middle class.

    British nationalism is definitely unifying the 99% class under a banner of political incompetence and we are supposed to think that’s ‘great’.

    Scotland is a nation, a profitable country with its the Saltire brand. It has an accessible government that is preserving the state, has ambitions to grow the economy and not continue as the recipient of WM charitable donations.

    We need not look to WM and the 2 party system that really rates British nationalism but has failed the majority over decades.

  310. yesindyref2 says:

    Anyone got a link for comparative statistics for attendance / votes / speeches / attendance on committees, written questions / PMQ or other HoC questions, asked by Scottish Labour MPs in 2014/15, and the SNP MPs in 2015/16? Totals, or per MP average. Official preferably, but I wonder if anyone’s datamined theyworkforyou or similar?

  311. Fireproofjim says:

    Re a Scottish navy. We would be entitled to our share of existing ships and facilities.
    As we don’t want anything to do withTrident, or the aircraft carriers, I reckon we would get three/four modern frigates, a submarine, minesweepers, patrol boats and a small fleet of helicopters. A great start.

  312. crazycat says:

    @ yesindyref2

    My MP recently sent me a newsletter, listing the number of his written questions etc, together with a statement that this was “above average”.

    I’ve deleted it, so I can’t tell you whether it was an average for all MPs (though I think it was), and I don’t know if these were official statistics, but he or someone on his behalf must have some figures in order to make the comparison.

    If I remember, I’ll ask the next MP I meet.

  313. Tinto Chiel says:

    galamcennalath and Phronesis: interesting points.

    The UK and USA believe in their exceptionalism and this causes mayhem around the world.

    Scottish nationalism is actually completely defensive: we are simply trying to survive as a nation and to rebuild our civic society in the face of difficult odds.

    I seem to remember Attlee buried all the promises of Home Rule for Scotland when he got into power too.

    This is why Mr MacWhirter is quite wrong when he states that dissatisfaction with The Union is recent. There have been several attempts to get Home Rule through parliament but all have been stymied. He also ignores the Scottish Covenant Association in the 40s and 50s.

  314. yesindyref2 says:

    Sheesh, Ponsonby on STV just trashed Dugdale, and that’s me saying that and him doing it and personally I think he’s a pleasant guy.

    Yes, I was at an SNP meeting tonight and it seemed to be the same from our MP (Patricia Gibson).

  315. Capella says:

    Scottish navy – I read recently that, after the Treaty of Union was signed, the Scottish ships were taken down to London then sunk.
    Sorry I don’t have a reference. Maybe Mr Peffers will have the detail.

  316. yesindyref2 says:

    We wouldn’t want a sub, one on its own is useless, and very very expensive each year, to have all the expertise and maintenance. As for helicopters, we’d more like get around 12 fast jets *Typhoons) plus a few helicopters.

    But that’s on a full share of debt and assets, if we’re going for a historical share of debt which is much much lower, it might be pushing it to go for a full share of movable assets, and I think the plan would be different this time too. Indy Ref 1 was a fair bit about shared defence after Indy, but it seems to me we’ve drifted apart, so why let the rUK have any before or after Ref leverage?

    Just borrow some money (0.33% pa Ireland gets at the moment), buy some OPVs, a few F16s, other stuff, off the shelf and there you go, an SDF for starters.

    Then let the rUK come to us asking us to share programs like the T26, QRA North continuing transitorily at Lossiemouth while they do some compulsory purchase and heavy digging in the North of England, yes of course, here are our terms, pleasure to do business with you.

  317. Sunniva says:

    @Tinto Chiel. The Society for the Vindication of Scottish Rights was set up by the Grant brothers in 1856. Then the Scottish Home Rule Association in the 1880s. Opposition to the union is as old as the union itself. In 1712 there was a vote to dissolve the union which failed by three proxy votes and umpteen Jacobite rebellions in the 18th century (not strictly about the union, but drawing nurture from dissatisfaction with it). The ’15 and the ’45 were just the biggest Jacobite rebellions. The most widely read book in Scotland after the bible in the 19th century was Blind Harry’s Wallace.

  318. Fireproofjim says:

    Capella – don’t know about the Scottish Navy in 1707, but we had the biggest ship in the world -the “Great Michael” built in the late 16th century. It was said to have used all the Oak woods in Fife and was built in Newhaven.
    By the way if anyone says that the UK would not give us our share of the Navy, (or anything else which we have helped to finance,), then we will not take our share of the National Debt.i think we would come out ahead on the deal.

  319. Terry says:

    Taxi for kezia after a second car crash interview in 24 hours. Ponsonby did well but anyone would with such a flaky, evasive liar. And as for JC and his poor appraisal of scotland? He’s a waste of space too. Bloody nerve – he’s anti nuclear and runs a party who says we have to keep them in scotland? Ridiculous. There’s too many glaring contradictions for slab to even limp along.

  320. ronnie anderson says:

    Kezia’s shot in the foot’s again John McDonald no change in the Tax system

  321. Tinto Chiel says:

    Sunniva: quite so but Mr MacWhirter seems unaware of this and still likes to suggest it was all peachy until the pesky SNP came along. And he thinks federalism is the answer.

    He needs to read the works of James D Young. Uncomfortable reading for him here: “The Very Bastards of Creation” and “The Rousing of The Scottish Working Class”.

  322. Sunniva says:

    @Cappella. Scottish navy. Re the merchant marine, most Scottish trading ships were second hand Dutch ships. The Dutch built the fastest ships in the 17th century. Re the navy, these ships were incredibly expensive to build and needed crown patronage. Scotland had very few by 1707. But one of the more interesting facts is that in the sixteenth century, before the union of the crowns in 1603, Scottish sea captains and naval architects were much sought after by the Danes. There was a French-Scottish-Danish alliance. James VI was the brother-in-law of Christian IV of Denmark-Norway and they were good friends. His flagship, the Tre Kroner, was built by a Scottish naval architect supplied by James VI, name of Lindsay. Most of the naval architects were named either Sinclair or Lindsay. A Scottish sea captain was also hired by the Danes in the late 16th century to sail to Greenland and try and make contact with their colony there, as nothing had been heard from the Greenlanders in over a century. He sailed, but was unable to make landfall. Payment for his voyage appears in the Danish royal archives.

  323. Robert Graham says:

    Looks like the BBC along with all the other media outlets are burying Kezias baffling performance yesterday on the Sunday politics program, a career ending performance like hers would normally attract attention from all quarters, all these organisations Guilty by Omission what’s new .

  324. Sunniva says:

    The Great Michael was James IV’s flagship.

  325. yesindyref2 says:

    Interesting article here by David Bell I found looking for something like it:

    The key thing is that Scotland’s GDP is exactly the same per capita, as the EU average, according to Bell in May this year. The significance of that is that whenever any Unionist claims that as part of the EU it would cost Scotland squillions for something including membership, the answer is, no, our GDP per capita is the same as the EU GDP per capita, so we would just take a per capita share of whatever cost it is, not one euro less, not one groat more.

    It’s an illustration by the way, of the fact that statistics produced by those not neccessarily in favour of Indy, can be used for our purposes, even without agreeing with the accuracy of them.

    A for instance of this is the EU army which some mad unionists are coming up with after an article in the Express of all places, stupidly copied by the Times 2 days later. Well firstly, even if it spent the same as the UK currently does, £40 billion per annum, our population share at 1% of the EU would be just £400 million.

    There’s a lot more than that, the EU army itself would not have some EU bod in charge, it would be under the control of individual member states, not all forces would be committed at any one time so would just be part of a member state’s normal complement, it won’t happen for at least 10 years, with a much smaller budget which would take maybe another 10 years to reach the UK defence budget size, and in can case it’s very unlikely to happen at all as there is already a lot of co-operation even within the EU let alone NATO of which most EU states are a member, and secondly though some in some EU member states like the idea, the governments don’t. In any case, if it did happen it would likely REDUCE defence spending in member states, on an all for one, one for all basis similar to NATO Article 5.

    So there.

  326. scotspine says:

    Re The Royal Navy, is the use of the “White Ensign” (cross of st george) not a breach of the Act of Union?

  327. ronnie anderson says:

    Am sailing of in ma Coracle Good night all catch you’s all tomorrow.

  328. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh yeah, I forgot to say in that long posting, that the EU Army idea was comprehensively destroyed by the Guardian of all places. Personally I think it’s probably a good idea!

  329. yesindyref2 says:

    @ronnie anderson
    Don’t forget to take your shotgun with you. You’re on patrol duty for the RN in Scottish waters tonight.

  330. Still Positive. says:

    Saw an article from Alyn Smith MEP today which said the EU Army is more a policing exercise of borders and he doesn’t see any threat of an EU army.

    As he is an SNP MEP, I tend to trust him on that.

  331. Liz g says:

    Reply for everyone who has posted about chatty stuff on the main thread today,over on Off Topic.

  332. yesindyref2 says:

    @Still Positive
    Yes, the clue is in the name “Army” which would include air and marine, but not fast jets, frigates all that stuff.

    I just did my figures on “worst case” costs – i.e. the lot.

    I’d say another use would be in case of civil emergency, such as flooding, earthquake, that stuff, one of the prime peacetime needs for actually having an army at all.

  333. Tam Jardine says:

    Bernard Ponsonby spot on- slab have boxed themselves into a corner over indy. We won’t know the deal on offer and neither do slab MSPs or MP. Kezia is pretending to be a strong figurehead able to dictate the party line yet nothing could be further from the truth.

    Speaking for Alex Rowley ruling out a second indyref even though Alex specifically stated that he wouldn’t oppose one seems even more preposterous in light of Corbyn’s leadership contest.

    How can Kezia rule out dissent on this issue when she has just emerged from explicit dissent against her leader, Jeremy Corbyn? If Alex Rowley is an errant MSP to be simply railroaded- how is that compatible with her own stance opposing Corbyn?

    I could go on- once a politician becomes discredited to this extent there is only one thing to do and that is resign her position.

  334. manandboy says:

    In the interview with Bernard Ponsonby on STV, Kezia evaded repeatedly the questions put to her. This could help to create the image of a slippery customer, someone with something to hide but being devious about it.
    Given Kezias’ limited abilities, she must be getting a lot of intensive interview training.

    Or, to put it another way, she’s becoming a better liar.

  335. Jock McDonnell says:

    There’s Chukka telling Newsnight that Tom Watson is doing his job, holding journalists to account !
    Surely that’s back to front.

  336. Still Positive. says:

    Jock McDonnell @ 12.17.

    Completely right.

  337. manandboy says:

    On the subject of Party Conferences, this year’s Tory Party Conference will start on Sunday October 2 and finish on Wednesday October 5, and will be held in Birmingham at both the ICC and Hyatt Regency Hotel.

    Assuming the event will be dominated by Brexit, about which Theresa May is being rather secretive and therefore very unlikely to be forthcoming about her plans so far, you have to wonder what the content is going to be, and to what extent Mrs May will be involved.

    As an aside, the conference presents both Cameron and Osborne with a dilemma. I wonder how they will solve it?

  338. Flower of Scotland says:

    A wee punt for PERSPECTIVE. The link is at 8.42pm

    Their pilot is really good and very worth supporting.

  339. Kevin Evans says:

    Someone should just ask Kezia “if brexit happens and there is no consultation with the Scottish goverment and Westminster pushes ahead with brexit and does not take on board or listen to the Scottish Parliament would you support independence”?

    Lay it right on the line for her.

  340. K1 says:

    The american debate is on BBC iplayer live right now for any one interested:

  341. call me dave says:

    Corbyn’s allies warned attack on autonomy plans could kill Labour in Scotland

    Sturgeon urges May to ensure UK’s proceeds of growth are shared more fairly and evenly

  342. Petra says:

    Kezia the LIAR has had her garbled, manic, inconsistent say in Liverpool. Next up Ruth Davidson, another UNIONIST LIAR, in Birmingham. Big egotistical rhetoric from wee insignificant Scottish ars*holes down South doing NOTHING for Scotland. No one south of the border gives a sh*t as to what they have to say and never will. What’s new?

    Kezia bleated on about her (BRILLIANT) policy of pushing up tax in Scotland to combat the Tory austerity cuts. Kezia’s party who sided with the Tories in the ‘Better Together’ stay UNITED campaign. Austerity cuts that her party bl**dy well voted for alongside their Tory pals. A tax increase that won’t affect the people of Liverpool, all over England in fact, and how they cheered her on. Ha, ha right enough – what an absolute embarrassment to Scotland. SHE IS. And as we push up tax levels in Scotland the Tories will continue to cut our budget (pocket money), we’ll have to push up taxes for ever more to the point that no one will want to live here far less carry out business in Scotland. That is the Westminster master plan and folks like Kezia know it. Wee Scottish Branch Office Labour putting their Westminster Party before the well-being of the Scots ONCE AGAIN. Over decades now.

    Next move strangle Scotland economically to the point that they’ll have to agree to fracking.

    Meanwhile Scotland will become the land of the rUK ‘freebies’ who contribute nought to Scotland. The land of the disabled and large families fleeing from England to claim benefits. The land of the homeless fleeing from England. Scotland the UK blooming old age care home. It’s no wonder we’re struggling to deliver home care in Scotland. Has anyone carried out a poll to establish how many elderly rUK relocators are now living here? Naw! That would be considered to be racist. OK for England to point the finger at those who are considered to be a drain on their economy, claiming benefits, but not us. Nicola no doubt having to keep her mouth shut.

    I travel all over scotland, CONSTANTLY, and have just spent 5 days in the Wester Ross area. To my mind the most beautiful part of Scotland (Scotland one of the most beautiful countries in the World) and what do I find? MOST of the houses in this area are owned by rUK relocators letting them out (and pushing up house prices to the detriment of Scots … in particular young, local persons). Check it out online. Select a village, check out the number of houses in the area and how many are let out. If you haven’t done so already you’ll be absolutely HORRIFIED. To add insult to injury I just spoke to an English B&B owner over the weekend who said that you don’t need a great deal of money to buy property in Scotland you just sell property down south along with your elderly relatives and then put them into a care home. Great stuff right enough! If you are English.

    Kezia the wee wummin that thinks Corbyn is unelectable, the Labour Party under his rule is unelectable, into the far and distant future. In other words Scotland is going to be decimated by the Tories, ONCE AGAIN, and maybe for evermore. As per Kezia, Scotland and the Scots will be crucified, ONCE AGAIN, but who cares? Not her that’s for sure.

    Let’s get out of here (this situation) folks. This, imo, is our LAST chance. Keep working your butts off to get the truth out there.


    Been away for a few days (isolated and no Internet) and now catching up on here. Takes forever!

    Loads of fantastic posts as per usual. Far too many to mention.

    Breeks post at 6:42 …. brilliant.


    North Chiels at 10:36. One post, imo, we should all be using to combat the ‘oil’ lies alongside Nana’s Hurricane Energy (other Scotland swimming in oil data … etc) at 8:04am.

    And then there’s Crazy Cat’s post at 12:04 and yesindyref2’s at 11:48 re. Public Register of Nuclear Site Licenses. One of eight / nine Nuclear sites in the World of over 200 countries and not even on the register. FGS give me a break.

    Westminster (Scottish Unionist Parties) is treating us like sh*t folks, as WE ALL WELL KNOW. Check out the SCND site for even more info.

    Off to bed now after a long day but not before I say thanks to Stuart. When this is all over he’ll go down in history as the man who saved Scotland: and then he’ll hopefully front his own Scottish news channel and horrify many Scots. Roll on the day.

  343. Ken500 says:

    The Tories have devastated the Scottish Oil sector. Losing thousands of jobs and revenues in Scotland. In 211 Budget. Osbourne increases the tax by 11% (£2Billion) to 81%. The Oil price was $120 a barrel. The Oil companies stopped exploration projects. Stop boring new oil holes. The price started falling. It fell 75%. Osbourne kept the tax at 80% – 60% when the price had fallen. Oil companies cut production. Continuing mainly existing projects/contracts which had to be completed. Tax is 40% from Jan 2016. The price has risen. Osbourne lost Scotland an average of £4Billion a year. Total £20Billion (over five years) More than the ‘Deficit’. More Oil & Gas has to be imported. Putting up the ‘deficit’.

    Does the Scottish Gov have the power to ban imported shale gas? The Tories destroyed the Oil sector and now are trying to frack Gas in Scotland,

    Scotland raises £54Billion+ in taxes. The UK raises £515Billion in taxes. Take £54Billion from £515Billion = £461Billion. Divide by 11 (rest of the UK 11/12) = £42Billion. Pro rata the rest of the U.K. Raises £12Billion less. Gives rest of the UK higher disposable income.

    The rest of the UK ( Wedtminster) borrows and spends £75Billion + an unaccounted £20Billion black hole (growth that doesn’t happen in the UK accounts fraudulent accounting)= £95Billiom. Deficit in the rest of the UK.

    Scotland has to pay from the £54Billion. Nearly £4Billion repayments on money it doesn’t borrow or spend, nearly £1Billion in Trident, a total waste of money. Tax evasion in Scotland £3Billion? Whisky companies etc tax evaded. HMRC not fit for purpose. A tax on ‘loss leading’ drink would
    raise £1Billion? Loss in Oil revenues (+ more Oil & Gas imported) £4Billion+ Total £13Billion. The ‘deficit’. Scotland raises £54Billion spends £56Billion.

    Block Grant £25Billion. (UK) Pension welfare benefits (paid by Scottish taxpayers) £16Billion. Defence share from Scotland £4Billion. Debt repayments on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland nearly £4Billion. £49Billion. Spent. Scottish accounts (Gers) have £10Billion of ‘unidentified expenditure’?. What is that about? Accounts are done to identify ‘expenditure’ False accounting. Scottish taxpayers are funding jobs and opportunities in the rest of the UK for services attributed in Scotland but not funded or existing there. Treasury/Military etc. The Mall vast bureaucracy of UK gov offices. (£Billions).

  344. scottieDog says:

    “Off to bed now after a long day but not before I say thanks to Stuart. When this is all over he’ll go down in history as the man who saved Scotland: and then he’ll hopefully front his own Scottish news channel and horrify many Scots. Roll on the day.”

    Nah Stuart will host a comedy quiz show called ‘Jock the week’ with frankie Boyle, Jerry Sadowitz and a few ex some bodies like Gerge Foulkes trying to boost their earnings whilst being ridiculed on national TV.

  345. Ken500 says:

    Many Councils (Unionist/Green No Party) are not carrying out statutory duties to provide essential public services. Instead borrowing/spending, wasting public money on grotesque, monstrosterous non mandated projects, the majority do not want. Neglecting social care, education etc. People are lying in the streets not getting proper support. People who not fit for public office are demanding more and more vast sums of unaccounted public money. Against the public wishes and the public interest.

    SNP/SNP May 2017.

  346. scottieDog says:

    “Kezia bleated on about her (BRILLIANT) policy of pushing up tax in Scotland to combat the Tory austerity cuts. Kezia’s party who sided with the Tories in the ‘Better Together’ stay UNITED campaign. ”

    Indeed, tax rises will just choke off demand and result in unemployment. In a nutshell, Capitalism runs on sales.

    So how can we boost demand?
    Simply by putting more money in the economy.
    The UK govt can do that at the drop of a hat as they are a currency issuer but are doing it by the back door via QE to boost asset values. This is only a benefit to the wealthy.

    At the moment Westminster are trying as usual to get the banks to increase the money supply by encouraging us to take on even more personal debt…

    This clearly isn’t working – household debt alone is more than £1.5tr in the UK.

    Without waffling on top much as I tend to, we come to the question..
    How can Scotland boost demand in its economy?

    The simple answer is to BECOME a currency issuer NOW.
    There is absolutely NOTHING stopping us from issuing currency into existence. The power of doing this is transformative…

    And there is already a solution for Scotland..

    One of the fringe benefits of this approach is that it teaches people – like Neil Findlay that money isn’t based on gold!

  347. Valerie says:

    @ Nana

    That Jack of Kent blog in your second lot of links is excellent. Some very intelligent responses on that piece too.

    Well worth following. He is a lawyer, who says he is neither for or against Brexit, but he is highly critical of the gov’t lack of response and examines all the legal issues.

    On that piece alone, the whole thing is an almighty morass.

  348. galamcennalath says:

    Tinto Chiel says:
    at 10:50 pm

    “I seem to remember Attlee buried all the promises of Home Rule for Scotland when he got into power too.”

    Labour have never been the natural party of Home Rule / decentralisation / devolution.

    Their ideological obsession has always been with centralised control.

    This was one of the reasons Scots backed the Scottish Unionist Party (not Conservative then) because Atlee’s Labour had been sucking power to the centre. Which usually meant London.

    Pre 1945, much more power, wealth, and influence (private of course) was distributed across the UK. I suppose it actually began with WW2 UK wide planning and control.

    We are damned lucky the SNHS was actually set up separately.

  349. call me dave says:

    The dark clouds gathered outside as I couried in bed earlier in restless anticipation of the day ahead. But decided to sieze the initiative with a shower and breakfast but alas made the fatal mistake of tuning in to shortbread radio.

    Then he pounced his strident voice booming out from the speakers, Douglas Fraser Auntie’s augury, harbinger of doom, and bringer of pestilence spent an alarming two minutes trashing NOT Scotland’s oil. FGS!

    My inner soul shrank away as I listened, my porridge turned to dust in my mouth. I winced and poured the now sour milk into the sink… It’s just another day in Scotland. 🙂

  350. X_Sticks says:

    Just jumping in here to make an O/T point.


    I foresee the MSM trying to use the fracking issue to try and damage the SNP vote.

    BBC campaign starting with the first shale gas delivery to Grangemouth. Watch how they try to make it into an anti-SNP meme over the next wee while. They see the controversy over fracking as a weakness in SNP policy and plan to use it as a propaganda tool.

    The other issue here is Westminster. They are desperate to get fracking in Scotland. They see it as a short term gain that can be done quickly before indy comes and they will leave Scotland to clear up the mess.

    Don’t be fooled. Fracking is not something we need or want in Scotland. It is very dangerous to our environment but that doesn’t matter to Ineos or Westminster.

  351. galamcennalath says:

    Autonomy for BLiS in Scotland sounds a very odd beast. Autonomy to do exactly what, beyond setting devolved policies? Seems like autonomy to talk about other things, but no power to actually implement or even influence them!

    The simple thing for Labour to do is give BLiS a veto on any UK wide policy making when it effects Scotland. All policies would need the consensus agreement among the devolved branches and HQ.

    You don’t need to be a political genius to understand that the heart of the problem between Scotland and England is that England’s relative size can always overrule Scottish democratic will. And usually does! I mean this at every level, from UK wide rule down to internal party decision making.

    Labour could set an example by creating a partnership between Scotland and England.

    Nae chance!

    Of course Labour will give no significant power away from the centre!

  352. Lenny Hartley says:

    Yesindyref2 re fast jets, forget f16’s, the Swedish Gripen suits us to the ground, we should not be taking any U.K. Moveable military assets. They are not fit for purpose.

  353. BJ says:

    Nana @7:36

    Reading Nana’s link of the cost to Canada regarding the Royals reminded me of a mention by one of Sky’s presenters yesterday that once the Republicans see how cute Prince George looked in his little navy socks walking down from the plane it might make these Republicans think again!!!

    Shows what goes through their half empty Unionists heads regarding those of us who strive for autonomy.

  354. Andrew McLean says:

    call me dave says:9:33 am

    Best to treat Good Moaning Scotland with all the professional detachment of a mental health practitioner listening to a very confused patient in the throes of a psychotic episode.

    Oil bad, SNP bad, police bad, schools bad, appointed person bad, worse that Greece you say, fascism, Nazi, Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmon, Independence , referendum, Ruth say’s no more voting, voting bad, Labour in Scotland, the union, god the union!
    I feel Clozapine would be helpful.


  355. Tinto Chiel says:

    X_Sticks: re fracking.

    Yes, and I notice that BLiS are still attacking the SG for not having an outright ban, which would leave it vulnerable to a legal challenge from fracking companies.

    Its moratorium is an intelligent way of dealing with fracking since the SG can say it is undertaking a proper process of waiting until fracking can be proved to be safe (impossible, of course). Meanwhile it’s booted into the long grass and there’s little the polluters can do about it.

    As usual the Blue and Red Tories use a pincer movement of opportunism against the interests of the Scottish people.

  356. manandboy says:

    Today, in Liverpool, England, Kezia Dugdale, manager of the Scottish branch of the UK Labour (Unionist) Party, will seek the permission of Labour’s National Executive Committee to become autonomous in certain areas of branch business.

    Kezia believes such autonomy /independence is vital for Labour in Scotland. At the same time she believes that autonomy for Scotland would be a disaster.

  357. Iain Cormack says:

    I noticed this morning on miss reporting Scotland that they stated that fraking is currently banned in Scotland.
    Not that the empire broadcaster has an agenda!

  358. sandycraig says:

    Theresa May in the Courier today has me bilin. “Scotland was able to weather the downturn of the oil price because of the broad shoulders of the uk”.

    She also accuses the SNP of “presiding over a nation where many are only just getting by, while those at the top seem to flourish with ease”.

    Christalmuckinfighty as someone once said. Kettle black pot springs to mind. Has she actually ever been out of the south east of England and seen the deprived areas elsewhere.

    We share each others successes when times are good, and shoulder the burden when times are tough, she says.

    Seems to me the only burden the south east has is how to divi up the cash.

  359. David says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    26 September, 2016 at 10:52 pm

    Sheesh, Ponsonby on STV just trashed Dugdale, and that’s me saying that and him doing it and personally I think he’s a pleasant guy.

    Anyone got a link or more info on when this was so I can go enjoy

    thanks in anticipation

  360. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Tinto Chiel says at 10:30 am


    X_Sticks at 9:37 am

    Aye, agreed re: fracking neither wanted nor needed in Scotland and the BLiS position would allow for legal challenge.

    The Tories going for the “we should develop our own shale gas, jobs, energy etc.”

    “Fracking should be allowed in Scotland especially as US shale gas being delivered to Grangemouth.” says Alexander Burnett Tory MSP Aberdeenshire West.

    Interesting front page on Neo Facist Voice of the North today which states:

    “1 Billion barrels of oil could be ‘lost’ under North Sea”

    Because “the low oil price means they are not worth brining ashore”

    I have no doubt it will turn out that this ‘lost’ oil could be offset by onshore fracking and is a very good thing as this story rumbles on.

  361. Nana says:

    Today the first container ship load of US shale gas arrives at the INEOS plant in Grangemouth, as part of a massive investment by the chemicals giant, which wants to exploit possible reserves in Scotland, using hydraulic fracturing, or “fracking”. This week the UK government is expected to sign a deal with French electricity giant EDF and a Chinese partner for the £16bn Hinkley C nuclear power station in Somerset.

    Read the rest here

  362. Hamish100 says:

    I think a wee bit of reality by the anti brigade.

    I switch on my central heating this morning. Where does it come from? Should we produce our own gas or import from foreign states and be dictated too over price etc. Should we close down the North sea? The nimbies are against turbines as well. Just put them elsewhere. In the past some of the anti-fracking groups said closing Grangemouth was a price worth paying.

    I support Grangemouth. Do you wish it to close? We decried Labour over the Falkirk by-election when Unite and Labour put themselves first over the local people.

    The oil in the north sea will be there for when we need it. Oil will still be withdrawn with or without fracking. The important issue for ALL extraction industries be it oil, gas, minerals is appropriate and strong regulation. We are not the USA.
    My ipad is built with what? Plastic, semi-conductors, copper, the battery is produced by what?

    Have to go now and switch off the central heating, gas cooker and the electricity. Heck even my wee snp card is made of plastic.

  363. Breeks says:

    I agree with Valerie and Nana that the Kent blog is good, but at the same time, I get the impression things are only beginning to dawn…

    Brexit is going to hurt, but yet at the same time, it is going to resolve itself. The world will change, and the European era will end as the post European era begins. For a time, rUK trade goods will be subject to tariffs, many businesses will vacate rUK if they require a foothold in Europe, but the majority I suspect will diversify. The HQ may relocate, but a presence will surely remain.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not pro Brexit in any way, but I don’t believe the sky will fall in on rUK, (when do we start calling it England?) after Brexit. Within living memory, the U.K. transformed its economy into a wartime economy, and while the process was grievous, it was still achieved. They’ll do it again, and I also believe the far right will also be put back in its box, eventually. But I simply don’t want Scotland to dragged into the process.

    I find it very curious what May said about Scotland taking some of the responsibility for Brexit. Thanks for the Sugarpuff Anaglypto wallpaper Mrs May, but what on earth possessed her to say such a thing? Read on a little, and apparently she meant the SNP is part of the establishment that the voters protested against. Err….ok. There’s one lonely grain of sand in that logic but I think I can just about see it.

    Point is, it doesn’t sound to me like pugnacious antagonism. Sounds to me that Westminster is feeling very fragile and isolated at the moment, and there’s a little concern that Scotland’s seat in the COBRA meeting has nobody sitting in it.

    Welcome to the coal face Prime Minister May. Isn’t it horrible when there isn’t much unity in a Union which, to all intents and purposes is quite simply dysfunctional? Scotland has been telling you that for decades, but none of you in Westminster were paying attention. In fact, Westminster hasn’t had its eye on the ball for some considerable time.

    You have my sympathy Mrs May, but Scotland could not save you now, even if we backed you. Set all subjective and impassioned arguments about sovereignty to one side, it still doesn’t mitigate England’s folly in any way to have us dutifully stumble on behind you into the abyss. We’re just not doing it Mrs May. We have more faith and aspirations in Europe than we do in Westminster, and somehow, by one way or another, the product at the end of the day will be Scotland set free, and with sovereign independence being the prerequisite condition of our committed membership of the EU.

    Brexit is a very English mess, which England elected to happen and it is going to change everything. Your chances of holding onto European markets look as forlorn as any future where you are still united with Scotland. Of course, Scottish independence isn’t inevitable, and if your BBC can manage it, perhaps justice might be confounded for a second time, but speaking frankly, perhaps you should consider the sullen consequences of Scotland being propagandised out of independent salvation for a second time, added to which we are dragged out of Europe against our will. You will turn the skies of Scotland as black as Mordor.

    It isn’t David Davis you need to negotiate Brexit. It’s David Blaine the magician.

    But setting aside cheap quips, perhaps you do need to think the unthinkable Mrs May. To avoid creating Mordor in the North, perhaps a loose confederation of English speaking Nation states, some in Europe, some out, might bear some worthy consideration. I emphasise the distinction of sovereign states. Nothing less can straddle being both in and out of Europe.

    What about Mrs May? Perhaps history might yet recall that the greatest redeeming quality of the 1707 Act of Union was the grace with which it was laid to rest when it no longer served any purpose. If you genuinely want Scotland on your side Mrs May, perhaps there may be no other option.

  364. Artyhetty says:

    Tinto, Jockanese@10.48

    I could be wrong, but I think that the moratorium on fracking is time limited? Thought I heard until spring 2017. It is the only thing keeping the frackers out at present, I fear Scotland will be fracked, again, thanks to the no voters, if so we are fcuked.

    Anyone with any facts on this? I do wish Scotland had no oil, no gas and no whatever else, that the greedy troughing vultures are clamouring for. While shackled to london and the rest of the yookay, it is never a good idea to have valuable resources.

    Regards oil, or gas, they will extract it, if at all possible. These oil snakes people never give up a good prospecting opportunity. The only thing about extraction is that it can cost more to get at it in deeper waters and more complicated geological areas, but then you just charge more for it.

    Win win, but not for Scotland.

  365. manandboy says:

    The Brexit Weekly Briefing

    The Guardian publishes a weekly report on Brexit developments. As such, it is not even thinking about Scotland, so the opinions offered seem to be a bit more balanced, even objective.
    What is immediately obvious is that there is a huge gulf between what Mrs May is saying and the views of everyone else. This is especially true of the opinions of Europeans.

    But what is absolutely bizarre about the Prime Minister’s strategy is that she has opted for complete secrecy. The justification for this is that it offers the best route to the best deal. Mrs May does not want to give away her position lest it hand the advantage to her opponent, or should that be her enemy. Does Mrs May think of the EU as an enemy of England – and a friend of Scotland.

    In the meantime, no start, no progress. No movement – after 3 months. And, above all, not knowing. Scotland needs to know where we are going. This situation with No.10 is unhealthy on any number of levels. What we have is a vacuum – and nature abhors a vacuum.

    The problem for Nicola is what to do about it. Pressure is building. A formal Brexit with Article 50 enacted, will surely trigger IndyRef2 with all that entails. If only we could just get started. Not knowing is paralysing Scotland. Which suits England down to the ground.

  366. Tinto Chiel says:

    Can’t see a date here, Artyhetty, unless my eye is missing it.

  367. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Hamish100 says at 11:13 am

    As a realist I agree that there is a requirement for fossil fuels in providing Scotland with energy and raw materials.

    I believe that the oil and gas reserves currently being extracted and those that will be in the future West of Shetland and down the West Coast can be sufficient without onshore fracking.

    These reserves should provide our own gas and oil for quite somw time without the need to import from foreign states who can dictated price etc.

  368. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Artyhetty says at 11:27 am

    According to this:

    “The timetable, apparently, is: scientific and other studies by midsummer 2016, consultation up to spring 2017, Ministerial decision summer 2017.”

    I would feel confident that when the moratorium is reviewed and then voted on with an SNP/Green majority in place it would be renewed.

    This of course would be conditional (as long as the science etc. studies found no change in circumstances regarding risk/pollution etc.).

  369. Meg merrilees says:

    Sandycraig @10.42

    Re Teresa May’s remarks: I read on sunday that she thinks Brexit will be good for Scotland.

    .. “we have an exciting chance to forge a new role in the world. Scotland’s status will not be diminished by that; it will be enhanced.”
    “As we strike that deal, we will go out into the world with the aim of being a leader in global free trade, one that makes the most of our advantages, from the financial expertise of Edinburgh to the shipbuilding prowess of the Clyde and the globally renowned food and drink produce of Scotland’s countryside.”

    What planet is she on?
    Firstly the Royal “We” sticks in the throat, secondly the shipbuilding prowess of the Clyde is hanging by it’s fingernails ‘cos of the Tories and as we all know a huge chunk of the globally renowned food and drink we produce is exported via England and boosts their figures, not to mention the tax on whisky, weaker infrastructure and costs for island produce to reach southern markets, lack of deep water ports for our own exporters to use. Can’t comment on our Financial markets as i have no knowledge there.

    Seems she is initiating ‘Project Confidence’ i.e. we’re not too poor, too stupid etc. just restricted by the EU, plus she just gave us three good reasons why she will try to keep the Union.

    As i said a few days ago I’m tired of ‘pooling and sharing with the UK’ we pool our resources and they share their debt!

  370. yesindyref2 says:

    @Lenny Hartley
    Yes, I’d forgotten the Gripen. I did compare the 3 of them (Gripen, F16 and Typhoon), but in Indy Ref 1 because, whatever the Unionists splurged out, the chances were there would be some shared and transitional defence with the rUK, came to the Eurofighter which though 4.5 Gen I persoanlly think is better than the 5th Gen F35-B.

    But it is expensive, and both F16 (plentiful) and Gripen are cheaper. The Gripen particularly is, I think I remember, cheaper per hour which is very important. But there’s a wait till 2022 currently from that article, though there’s a possibility of reworked older models.

    The Gripen is impressive, and apart from being able to have say twice as many of them as Typhoons which covers training and reserves as well as an operational squadron, means Scotland would be moving more to and strengthening a NORDEFCO, which would suit more our own northern / future arctic defence co-operation needs. It would I think actually complement the rUK’s more global aspirations as well, so no actual friction there.

    I think, by the way, NORDEFCO is the answer to the Clyde shipyards if the rUK plays dog in the manger, but that would take some exploring.

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