Wings Over Scotland

But, like countless local councils across Scotland would ‘Scottish’ Labour not have an ‘understanding’ with the ‘Scottish’ Tories instead? Or does the maths not work out for that?

I can’t imagine it would seriously upset Labour’s support in England, since a fag paper wouldn’t separate them from the Tories anyway.

“you’d need a heart of stone not to laugh at this”

Maybes it’s bringing a tear to a glass eye instead.

Three and a half years for the current troughers to set up all the quangos, advisory boards, steering committees and other NGO’s they will need to ensure seamless transitions onto the parallel non-governmental gravy train.

“Rainbow Greens”, oh my sweet bippie ! That tickled me so much I nearly bought a round.
As if Messrs Harvie & Slater, the Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber of this devolved administration (and there is quite a competition for the posts) weren’t enough to stagger the imagination, now we have the “Woke Extreme” version of the”Woke beyond belief” party.

It’s noteworthy that the SNP and Greens would rather try to do a deal with Labour than with other pro-independence parties, despite support for independence sitting at over 50% in recent opinion polls.

Depressing, but really we need to call this charade out for what it is. The wee pretendy colonial.administration will roll on and meanwhile more and more of our resources will be plundered or sold-of. So, the greens are toast (carbon neutral?) thankfully, but as for the other yoon parties – including the nuSNP – coalescing into a majority in whatever combination, and being able to convince us that we really have any say in our governance and future. Well, there’s a few bridges too far. We can’t afford to wait 3 years for our democracy (Brig a Doon version) to appear again, we need a stop event to halt the bagpipes and we need to remove most if not all of the chairs. Something has to give or we all get fat and happy on the pop-corn while we wait on the next season of the devo shitshow. Perhaps the house of cards might get blown down if some of the shit eventually hits a fan and splatters, but is that likely. More likely to be swept under the nearest carpet (again). Like I say, depressing…

John Main says “Maybes it’s brining a tear to a glass eye instead”.

I have a “glass eye” and it’s been streaming with tears ever since the SNP stupidly allowed a coalition with the Wacky Party instead of going for a supermajority.

Of course, for the SNP and more importantly for Scotland, it’s been all downhill from then, but to be fair, they were already well on their way down before the last Holyrood election but we were not aware of quite just how fast that downhill plunge was soon to escalate.

Hmm, just seems like more machinations of the same old Party politics bollocks playing out to me.
Does nobody else feel like this is just pissing in the wind or banging heads against a wall, and instead we could try to use an alternate approach. Something like I’ve stated previously, and have a concerted move towards identifying, nurturing, and campaigning to elect decent, honest, and respected non-Party affiliated individuals who live in their respective constituencies and who will far better represent their constituents.
Stand on a manifesto of empowering the people’s voice to be hear by voting in line with and as instructed by their constituents. And also offer a straightforward recall procedure to step down should they fail to represent the views expressed by their constituents, or any other aspect which comes to light or manifests that the people feel makes it untenable for the individual continuing to represent them.
This would remove the remote centralised control by Party whipping on bad and unwanted policies, and also the interference in the selection process of candidates who should just be locally elected officials.

When the SNP ship is sinking (and it is) the rats will flee the ship, and ditch the Greens with it, to form an alliance with BLiS, if the English Labour branch office does well in 2026, the current SNP will do anything and I mean anything to have at the very least a modicum of power at Holyrood and that means teaming up with any party.

As you say the good point is that the Greens will be dumped out of their ministerial positions and maybe even some will be dumped out of Holyrood altogether.

I guess the real point is that there are no longer any Scottish independence minded parties at Holyrood, only parties with MSPs wanting to survive in the job and on the gravy train, and by any means possible.

The interesting thing is 1 we haven’t even got to a Westminster election and already 2 The Rag, Greens and SNP have moved on to the Next Holyrood election. So what has happened to the De-Facto-Referendum at the next Westminster election that the NUSNP said would be a vote for Independence.

If anybody who votes ‘green’, were ever to actually properly read the Scottish green manifesto, they would be shocked (or die laughing). Their manifesto is usually chock full of the most ridiculous, damaging, utterly useless nonsense ideas imaginable. Reading a green manifesto, is akin to reading The Beano. It is student politics, all about ‘smashing the system’, and such nonsense. Stopping folk travelling, banning ALL flights, banning ALL cars, and so on. Barking mad.

Why the greens were ever in government anywhere is down to one thing, NOBODY has ever (apart, it seems from myself) read one of their manifestos.

Nutters, the whole lot of them.

A good analysis based on current polls. Labour are 1 to 8 to win the General Election. A probable landslide in the offing. Which is why I went bold Labour will win 30 plus seats in Scotland. Spread bet, scary if they end up with one MP again. I think that will roll on to the Scottish Elections. Labour will win most MSP seats but short of 65. Which makes the Alex Salmond achievement all the more remarkable.

TBQH I would go for Dan’s proposal of electing local non party representatives, or independents as they are known

It has become even more insulting and outrageous that these parasitical arsewipes are OPENLY colluding and proposing DEALS that will keep them sucking on the state teat, despite every one of them from all parties being responsible for the absolute clusterfuck that is not only Scotland but the WHOLE of the uk

They have such contempt for the electorate that they feel or know that people will just go along with anything they decide to dream up because they are weak and stupid , the ONLY thing they will listen too is ANGER

As George Ferguson says, if a possible landslide in the Westminster election is possible does anyone really care what happens in the wee pretendy parliament. A minority Labour administration can simply align itself with Westminster and say it’s the will of the population north and south of the border. A few fiscal or legislative screws applied and Holyrood can be joined at the hip politically with Westminster. The SNP and independence birds can be killed with one stone.

@Captain Yossarian 5:47pm
You are correct up to a point in terms of the standard of MSP. More importantly there are structural and procedural weaknesses in Holyrood which under normal circumstances would counteract weak MSPs. I believe it was you that talked about Stu inferring an inflexion point. I would agree with that. People are seeing a huge reduction in the capabilities of public services. It’s their personal experience. 10 years on we need to find a solution to fix broken Holyrood. But an understanding that the question of Independence is unresolved until further notice.

I don’t think holyrood is broken, it is working perfectly fine, for a colonial.administration, aka wee pretendy parliament, filled with house jock forelock tuggers.

@Captain Yossarian says:11 July, 2023 at 5:47 pm

with a good First Minister Holyrood is honest and accountable and works, with a bad First Minister it doesn’t work

And with a fraudulent, pretendy FM?

These days most people posting here seem to have forgotten the deeply flawed and fraudulent process that shoe-horned HY into the position of SNP Continuity Incompetent Candidate, and hence by sleight-of-hand resulted in him becoming FM of Scotland and Keeper of the Great Seal.

But surely not everybody has forgotten?

How much of the slide in SNP support comes from widespread Scottish voters reacting to that disgraceful travesty of a leadership election?

Sturgeon said she couldn’t vote for Alba.

She said it was gaming the system against Unionists she wanted in the back door.

Now it looks like the former Scottish nationalist party has no choice but to work with Alba to stay in power.

They’ve lost so many votes getting into bed with Harvie and Slater. Their Bute House agreement has been self destruction.

Strangely enough the planet would be a better place without the Green Party.

Oh Dear! If only the SNP cyber trolls had not spent the last 16 or so years being nasty to the LP “yoonies” and worse. Or if the SNP hadn’t tried to royally f**k the LP (or Libdems and even the Conservatives) whenever they were in coalition at local council level. Those same LP councillors will be entering Holyrood and Westminster as the next generation of MSPs and MP’s respectively. Even if it was commonsense and pragmatic, the chances of the LP going into coalition with the SNP, with or without the Greens, is absolutely zilch. There would be a better bet of the SNP winning a majority of 50%+1 seats at Holyrood setting iRef2 in play, under the Humza Yousaf leadership.

Ray Merrall

After Better Together?
Smith Commission?
Scotland bill?
Billions left in the bank?
PFI?

Are you kidding?

The labour party have been bigger barstewards to Scotland than the Tories. At least the Tories were up front about being knts.

The only ppl in Scotland voting Labour will be a unionist or someone not in full charge of their faculties.

Geri,

you do realise that if you abandon Holyrood, there is literally no legal route whatsoever to Indy, and that any form of UDI by some ragged bunch of Saltire-waving lunatics, with no democratic legitimacy, is going to result in no international recognition whatsoever?

Maybe you don’t. Maybe you are so angry with your own intellectual inadequacies that you cannot see that.

ASA

Don’t waste another convo with your banal nonsense.

We go back to what we had before Holyrood was ever offered as a last ditch attempt to halt independence.

The UK claimed to the international community & the European Council (& the reason they could join all their wee international clubs they are a member of) That Scotland was in a voluntary Union. That appears no longer to be the case.

Circumstances have now changed. The terms of Holyrood have also changed.
The promise of the No vote *Nothing will stop indyref if that’s what a majority votes for* has changed.

Suck it up, buttercup. The SNP is dead but the YES movement isn’t.

Geri,

I’ll iterate. UDI by some bunch of Indy supporters without democratic legitimacy is throwing Scotland down the drain. Nobody in the entire world will recognise it. Westminster and the rest of the UK won’t, either. It’s also the permanent death of the Indy movement.

And to have democratic legitimacy, you need Holyrood, and the agreement of the UK parliament for a referendum.

Wheels coming off the IPCC bandwagon?

Judy Curry’s website, Climate Etc has a long detailed post about two climate scientists debating calculations of climate sensitivity to carbon dioxide.
The comments section has two other climate scientists, Javier Vinos and Mike Jonas, taking it to bits.

“Javier | July 8, 2023 at 2:24 pm | Reply

Nice and detailed article. A very good presentation of current knowledge about climate sensitivity.

The problem is that it is all guesswork. There are a lot of implicit assumptions in calculating the ECS, starting with having all the forcings identified and correctly specified. Then assuming that all past warming is due to CO2 and no other cause. Then assuming that there actually is an ECS, and that the climate response to CO2 remains constant at different CO2 concentrations and different climate states.

Then we don’t know what our future emissions will be. The rate of increase has slowed a lot in the last 10 years, and I don’t remember anyone predicting that.

The end result is that we have no idea what the temperature will be in 2100, unless they continue to manipulate the temperature records, and then it will be the temperature they decide.

My guess is an increase of 0.15ºC/decade, or 1.2ºC. As good as anyone’s guess (2 cents).”

“And to have democratic legitimacy, you need Holyrood, and the agreement of the UK parliament for a referendum.”

“Democratic legitimacy” from a body which repeatedly denies 10% of the population the basic human right to self determination?

As the actress said to the bishop…“oh do just fuck off, there’s a good chap.”

Anglos are inflltrating Scotland – you can tell them; they have 2 mouths, one to lie out of, the other to steal the food from your mouth

luckily scots scientists have invented an automated asylum s3ttl3r application processing system, firing caseless 40mm at 6000 rounds per minute.

here we see anglos attempting to get to an estate agents in the highlands

link to youtube.com

once the guns run out there is nothing stopping them from free prescriptions, social care and a vote they don’t deserve

“stay frosty, we can’t afford to let one of those bastards in here …”

Briandoonthetoon,

you might make the same comment at Geri, who had called me, uncalled for, a “Nazi prick”.

But, I acknowledge your point.

Away and shite.
That was after days of your bullshit derogatory comments. You seem to have a nasty bee in yer bonnet targeted to Alf Baird & Dan too, amongst others. Yer just a spoiler with no point to you.

& We don’t need Holyrood involvement. We remove our consent. Just as the ppl of NI can withdraw theirs with a border poll.

All those international clubs & free trade agreements end when a COUNTRY removes it’s consent from the union.

Geri,

you don’t understand how western diplomacy works.

Unless Westminster agrees, the rest of the western world won’t recognise iScotland.

So that means a referendum, up front. And then an agreement with rUK about trade and debt. And about half a million things beyond that.

There’s fuck all that some lunatic band of saltire wavers are going to achieve without those things in place.

The referendum route is being unequivocally denied by Westminster . Prior to “ the supposed “ Holyrood parliament of 1998 ( incidentally where is the equivalent “ devolved” PR English parliament?) the exact criteria for Scotland to become Independent pre 1998 as decreed by no less than Mrs Margaret Thatcher was for a MAJORITY of Independence MP’s to be elected to Westminster . This should be the principal criteria for the establishment of a sovereign Scottish Parliament as these MP’s are elected on “ reserved” policies including constitutional matters .

If you cast your mind back to the Salmond trial and what that exposed, and the Fabiani Inquiry and what that exposed.

The names Sturgeon, Swinney and Evans embarrass us and it doesn’t matter whether you are Nationalist or Unionist.

The problem as I see it, is that we are no longer fit to self-govern. We were fit pre-Holyrood, but not post Holyrood.

Our civil-service is bent and our professions have bent to suit. That is the problem that explains all of the other problems.

As I have said before, I have Nationalists in the family, but we are further away than I can remember.

It has been 10-years of managed decline.

God help us all if it turns out to be Sarwar and Baillie next because they are the pits.

@Captain Yossarian says:12 July, 2023 at 5:33 am

The names Sturgeon, Swinney and Evans embarrass us and it doesn’t matter whether you are Nationalist or Unionist

Indeed, but leaving Yousaf off the list is inexplicable. He embarrasses everybody too.

The problem as I see it, is that we are no longer fit to self-govern. We were fit pre-Holyrood, but not post Holyrood

Again, indeed, but that was the fundamental reason HR was set up in the first place, to kill Indy stone dead.

HR has declined into a talking shop. It didn’t have to be that way – AS had what it took to use HR as a stepping stone to a better Scotland, but perhaps he simply exhausted all the possibilities.

It is because HR counts for so little now that its troughing incumbents could connive at the flawed and fraudulent process that anointed HY as “leader of Scotland” with hardly a peep of protest from any source.

@Luigi says:12 July, 2023 at 6:56 am

reality is what people perceive realty to be

Naw.

Soz Luigi, but that’s the opposite of reality.

I wasn’t going to comment on Breeks’ “Thought For The Day” post, he kinda has them off pat now and can churn one out weekly.

But the essence of these posts is essentially the exposition of his faith-based belief system.

Read it through and react to it logically and you will immediately see that there is absolutely nothing stopping anybody, Breeks for example, from declaring that as a Sovereign Scot he intends to run and govern Scotland in accordance with the Claim Of Right, because all of the current setup, from WM, through HR, to the Scottish civil service are shams, frauds, usurpers and house Jock tractors.

All Breeks has to do tomorrow (or even today) is announce his intention and invite every Sovereign Scot who thinks like him to march together on Edinburgh.

So why doesn’t he? Because his faith-based fantasy collides with reality. Reality does not align with his perception of our status as Sovereign Scots.

And for now, like the rest of us, he retains that resigned acceptance that reality matters more than anything else.

Robert Louis says:
12 July, 2023 at 7:05 am

Breeks ta 0447am,
===

You are making the same mistakes that so many people outside these shores do: conflating England with the UK. It was the UK that was in the EU and it had to be the UK that left. Scotland is a constituent part of the UK. As soon as you realise that, you will feel the anger slip away. Better now? Bless.

It was Salmond that did the damage by calling a referendum before he had worked out the tricky details for an iScotland. He simply didn’t convince enough Scots.

I’m surprised that SNP clown control hasn’t yet formally promoted the policy of actually joining Labour.

I mean the SNP could dissolve itself and merge into Labour because that’s the way they are going.

The SDP if anyone remembers them dissapeared. The SNP is going the same way.

Well done Nicola Sturgeon and the band.

It was not Alex Salmond , it was the media and every unionist lie printed , reiterated and whispered in the ears of the unsure – no pension will be paid into your account , out of the EU, won’t be allowed to use the pound or the embassies ,no promotion or protection of Scotch whisky, Tunnocks , Baxters and Mackies will close down or move south, in fact every large employer will move south, the Russians and aliens will invade on and on with drivel and shite -the unionists way.
And I forgot, Michelle Moane would leave Scotland – how Scotland wept at that prospect.

“Scotland has been dragged out of the EU, wholly and completely against our wishes.”
Another one squeaking about “We wurr pure dragged oot o’ that EU – against oor WILL!”
How many times have I seen this since that phrase was coined?

I don’t want to contribute to the £13BN PA to receive more “Beeg Eesue, pliss”.
I don’t want the main demographic of Scotland changed.
I don’t want any primary schools where they pat themselves on the back for having NO English speakers, save the teachers.
I don’t want additional legal rights given to the Abu Hamzas of the world and his ilk.
I don’t want globalism – and I don’t want Govanhell – the model of the EU.
I don’t want us to end up like France 2023.

Admit it – the “support” for the EU in Scotland has mainly been from people hoping the EU will jump in, like a big sister, to fight the school bully, because you feel ebil Toaries have stolen your lunch money.
You can still go holidays in Europe, the ebil English haven’t stopped that at all! It wasn’t ENGLAND that took Scotland out of the EU, it was the people of the UK, of which Scotland is still a part of, and I am glad that I was one of them.

@Breeks (7.05) –

Hear hear.

Here’s one most of us have seen but it’s always worth revisiting – John Jappy on what happened to the oil ‘bonanza’.

link to youtube.com

Republicofscotland says:
12 July, 2023 at 8:41 am

… the English media, and the Britnat politicians, along with the entire foreign MSM and the Civil Service, worked against and lied to frighten voters into voting no.
===

Another example of where he got it wrong. Thanks for corroborating my point, ROS.

SNP/Labour
Labour/Tories

Weirdly I’m comfortable with either as it may be that removing the greens from their sphere of influence changes the direction of travel. Independence ain’t happening in the next 10 years thanks to the SNP so does it even matter which party is in charge if it isn’t the greens?

Dan says:
12 July, 2023 at 8:20 am

@ dasBlimp

Re. “It was the UK that was in the EU and it had to be the UK that left.”

Really?

link to ideasforeurope.eu

Article 48 states

ROADMAP FOR SUCCESSION IN EUROPEAN UNION MEMBERSHIP IN THE CASE OF MEMBER STATE’S SECESSION OR DISSOLUTION

=====
Get on with it then.

Breastplate says:
12 July, 2023 at 8:47 am

dasBlimp,
There are no tricky details for an independent Scotland. We make our own decisions and are responsible and accountable for those decisions.

===

I must have it all wrong then. Obviously, Scotland is a happy clappy Utopia is it? Scotland is still dependent after given the vote. Other countries spill blood to gain their independence.

*over-riding but perhaps ever-riding is also correct.

dasBlimp,
Should Scotland be an independent country?

“Another example of where he got it wrong. Thanks for corroborating my point, ROS.”

I take it you are some spotty face chinthe in his/her twenties sitting at a desk in some English security services building responding to my comment, too young to recall what happened in 2014, and too stupid to have done your homework on it, I’ll help you out a bit kiddo.

The Britnat leader of Project Fear Alistair Campbell, said after no won in 2014, that of course Scotland could’ve used the pound on independence, prior to the vote he said it couldn’t, as did the coke head Osborne.

The head of the Civil Service in 2014 Sir Nicolas MacPherson, said after no had won, that he and his department just couldn’t stand by and watch the UK break up and that his department actively worked to support the union, in which the Civil Service was meant to be impartial, knowing what we know now, its no surprise that MacPherson went on to work for Sturgeon the Judas at the SNP.

As for state propaganda bias in the media.

link to bing.com

C Yossarian;
“..I speak as a Labour voter…..Salmond was a great First Minister and Ruth Davidson could have been…”

Wait. What? RUTH DAVIDSON?

ROTFLMFAO.

Dan – Support for independence lies at around 50% and I must admit to being surprised by that. However, no-one disputes it.

Scots can see that there is potentially a better future, but that needs to be delivered and that is the problem.

It will clearly not be delivered by the SNP. I am a Labour supporter but it will not be delivered by them either. So that 50% figure is only going to go down from here. My guess is it could go down quite quickly.

All this vexing that goes-on is moot until Nationalists re-group and present an indisputable case for independence to the public.

I stand ready to be convinced. I can think of Stuart Campbell, Robin McAlpine, Alex Salmond and Kenny MacAskill who are credible, but the fact that they are excluded explains the problem you have.

I always read your posts and George’s posts but I tend to skip past most of the others.

Lastly, I was in Aberdeen in the late 70’s and it was a prosperous city. I was back a few years ago and I would not call it prosperous now. So, all of that oil wealth has passed them by and left them poorer.

Scots understand that shouldn’t be happening, but our parliamentarians are so vapid they cannot engage and explain what needs to change and how that can be done.

I was never a great fan of Salmond, but he could do that and so too can MacAskill, but no-one else can and so, until that changes, Nationalism is moribund in Scotland.

Republicofscotland says:
12 July, 2023 at 9:56 am

“Another example of where he got it wrong. Thanks for corroborating my point, ROS.”

I take it you are some spotty face chinthe in his/her twenties sitting at a desk in some English security services building responding to my comment,
=======

It’s like you really know me, ROS. Tell me, do you fantasise about me a lot?

@Dan says:12 July, 2023 at 9:56 am

John Main constantly demands to be “shown the money” in in what would be a self-governing Scotland, and he doggedly tries to critique and denigrate any suggestions proffered, yet he seemed so at ease and accepting when being “shown the money” if it was plastered on the side of a red bus during the “Brexit” campaign

You are assuming it was money that caused me to vote to leave the EU. Let’s run with that and see where it takes us.

It shows that I was lied to, I am now poorer, so I won’t be fooled a second time, i.e. at a future Indy vote. Whoopsee, direct hit on foot time.

As it happens though, I did my own estimate of how much I realistically thought Brexit would cost me and the wider economy (a 10% loss) and I calculated it would be worth it to me to remove all the foreigners from my local Scottish streets. Make jobs, homes, school places, medical appointments, that sort of thing, available once again to us indigenous Scots.

I see no reason to modify that 10% figure with hindsight BTW. The much bigger economic contractions we are seeing are due to the Chinese Flu and the Russti War.

What you flatly refuse to acknowledge, Dan, is that most Scots do indeed care about the money. You continue to argue against “show us the money” as a pro-Indy influencer whilst simultaneously banging on about our electricity generation surpluses and remaining quiet whilst others bang on about decades of oil and gas theft.

It’s not about whether that money exists. It does. And it’s not about whether Scots want a bigger share of the money. They do.

It’s about the real-world mechanisms and processes that would have to happen for that money to be channeled into my wallet. And everybody else’s wallets.

It’s about the rational, grounded acceptance that all of the assets, exploited and potential, that accrue to Scotland’s geographical area are already owned, licensed, controlled, occupied, by potentially hostile institutional and state actors, with layers of lawyers backed up by hard men with guns.

So, showing us the money consists of demonstrating the processes by which these assets will be prised from the cold, dead hands of the current owners and redistributed (in part) to me and the rest of us Scots.

It needs to look at how long the tortuous Brexit negotiations took, about the uncounted billions the UK will be paying the EU for broken agreements, decades after we are all dead, and acknowledging that the same millstones will be chained to iScotland post-Indy.

Or, it’s about being honest about the international pariah status of a UDI Scotland, how long that will last, and how much that will cost us all.

Finally, as I have said before, this is not really about me. Just do what it takes to convince everybody else and my views won’t amount to a hill of beans.

Anyway, work calls. Taxes to pay, Scottish taxes to pay on top, and HY can’t eradicate poverty, homelessness and lumpy porridge if I don’t shoulder my share of the burden.

@Breastplate
Let us suppose Scotland left the union, joining the EU would be more of the same, and more than likely worse. How, then, could any sensible person describe such a situation as “independence”?

I stopped voting SNP after it became clear they were now a globalist party. I was recently quite interested in some new Scottish independence party (“New Dawn”, perhaps? I can’t remember) formed shortly before the formation of Alba, they were anti-EU and anti-globalism – but were quickly shut down by TPTB as they were deemed to have former members of some proscribed rightwing party within their ranks.

Make of that what you will. Somebody doesn’t like the idea of TRUE independence…

Republicofscotland says:
12 July, 2023 at 10:01 am

It was the Ex-Welsh FM Carwyn Jones who pointed out that Brexit cut clean across Scottish sovereignty.
=====

Carwyn Jones also argued against Scottish independence. LOL. Funny old world innit?

link to bbc.co.uk

@Republicofscotland says:12 July, 2023 at 9:56 am

spotty face chinthe

I can’t decide whether to object to this on rational grounds, i.e. the facial hair would obscure any spots, or on outraged virtue signalling grounds, i.e. RoS is insulting the valued, even perhaps sacred, iconic symbols of a proud, ancient, national culture.

Stu,

I thought the SNP and Greens were Labour.
And that they are under one party politics, they just don a different jacket from the peg when they open the outside doors.

Curtain-twitcher General,
As has been mentioned numerous times these past years, many people here have noted the pros and cons of EFTA v the EU, it does not mean they don’t believe in self determination.

There is no such thing as pure independence, every country relies on trade of some description, so it would be helpful to your world view if you can accept this.

What I want and I would imagine a great many others when talking about independence is self determination, the ability to make our own decisions (good or bad) and change them if necessary.
It is completely immaterial to me which party is in charge of an independent Scotland, they will be new parties in the main and their powers will be transient depending on the Scottish electorate.

As I’ve said, pure independence does not exist, there is a trade off. We need to get as close to making as many decisions for Scotland as possible, we are the ones who should be making those trade offs, nobody else.
The idea that if we don’t have pure independence, we should have nothing neglects either wilfully or ignorantly all the middle ground.

It is important for any country to have more control over their affairs, not less.
Scotland can prioritise Scotland’s concerns. England couldn’t do this even if it wanted to.

There is No great Seal of Scotland for HY to use, it was discarded by king by James in his retreat, so government could not officially continue.

The one in use is nowadays is merely a replica and GB fabrication.

A Scot Abroad said;
“Xaracen,
you are beyond parody. Bluster, idiocy, teenage misplaced outrage, ignorability. Get back to us when you’ve got muddy knees, have grown up, and know how the world works. Until then, keep quiet, child.”

Your refutations are unpersuasive. Perhaps more substance than fury would help?

Probably not. Frustrating, isn’t it, when the peasants can read, write, and think for themselves?

John Main,

Scots do not need to consider UDI.

It was done for them in 1707, by those down south.
By Extinguishing the Scottish parliament, the Scottish parliament Acts, the Scottish parliaments representatives prior to the establishment of GB Parliament,

Englands parliament has presumed to use or transfer a extinguished and closed Scottish parliament Acts for its own Westminsters parliaments acts and Scots domestic law acts under Colonialism into a “Self proclaimed” international treaty with GB and Scotland thereafter,

Scotland & the Great British/ UK parliament do not agree or hold on a treaty of union with each other.
The Great British parliament cannot make a decision in Scotland,
The Devolved government to Scotland is under Westminster legislation,

What is EnGlands westminster parliament going to do?

Pretend to have a legal battle with itself in Scotland?

never mind the knockabout fun, consider the more practical, this

link to archive.is

now ruminate on “cat among the pigeons” and “never gonna happen”

maybe they mean it, maybe its just a distraction

consider the local politician

– say stuff to get elected
– get elected, find you cant do stuff because no-money
– ponder fixing the council tax system which gives the wealthy an easy time of it
– realise you will never win an election if you do this
– go back to the top

you can categorise the “things never get better” due to a form of entropy working at societal level, but it could also be a lot of these “null loops” – just go round in circles, doing nothing … wait, isn’t that all of politics, just interspersed with occasional really bad ideas.

I wonder what the Greens position on this will be – surely more taxes from the rich can be used to greenify and rainbow-paint so many things … but given its only a handful of middle class wankers who vote for them, is it wise? The middle class do love a bit of virtue signalling in public, in private they like low taxes, freebies and writeoffs.

Gord says:
12 July, 2023 at 12:34 pm

How did the 65 countries that have gained independence from Britain do it. Did they ask for a Section 30 or equivalent ?

——————

scotland isn’t a country it’s a region

There is a distinct confusion between the colonial version of a treaty ( even by Scottish independence supporters) and actual recorded facts of history to the detriment of Scots and Scotlands future,

It is a fact of history recorded and written by Westminster parliament for more than two years past now.

That Westminster published publically to the world that it was deliberately calculated by all involved not to give the Scots a vote to join the treaty of union,

Been as the question has never reappeared or been approached again since 1707.
What is the position of the Scots today?

Unable to act within a fallacious treaty?
Unable to pronounce UDI due to not being attached to the British Westminster parliament?
Unable to have Scottish representative in Englands Westminster parliament.
However very definately Sovereign and separate from Westminster Government, from Englands Monarch and Crown,
And from the Scotland Act.

One day for all Scots struggling for a independent Scotland the penny will drop as to the ramifications of that Westminster statement.

Like the enduring mantra to convert soft No into Yes,
or the persistence of STU to steadily inform us of how wrong the SNP and Green have been white washing us.
It takes time for these things to sink into the psychy. It takes time and persistence to encourage Scotland to take another peep into the Hoax and that Scots have undergone a thorough white wash in Colonialism with regards the treaty of union,

Not solely on just one issue, but repeatedly with inflicted propaganda of a Coloniser,
Two years three years preferably sooner,
However long it takes for the ramifications penny to drop.

Like Stu in his endevour’s persistence is the way for this to happen.

Never answered by any indy supporters?

Are you sure about that? I think I’ve said it at least a dozen times to you already..

By taking full control of our own resources.
By starting to charge England for it’s gas, oil, electricity instead of giving it away for free.
By retaining upto & over 35 billion of *UK imposed fees* deducted from our own revenues.
By settling up our shared UK assets.

There’s a few to start with..

@Confused says:12 July, 2023 at 12:27 pm

Main is a sunday post reader suffering from terminal presbyterian brain rot

Good one, fits on a T-shirt too.

And maybes a headstone.

Terminal eh? How long have I got?

BTW, I miss Andy Ellis too.

Maybes I’ll do a “Ron Clark” and revive him. Can’t have too many names!

@Geri says:12 July, 2023 at 1:08 pm

People seem to forget the line *We’ll not be dragged out of the EU* was a manifesto commitment

Well, well, every day a school day.

Incomprehensible to me how it wasn’t widely publicised before the EU Referendum “BTW, in the event of Scotland voting to stay in and the rUK voting to leave, we’ll be Independent”.

Cos that would sure as fuck have livened up the pre-referendum debate. Even in the Sunday Post.

Are you sure, Geri? Gonna have to ask you for evidence to back up that claim.

A Scot Abroad.

Scots are not in the UK, they were not invited to be in the UK, go read it.
The question and vote has never been repeated since 1707 either for Scots.

The reset button for Scots and Scotland is discovering that Scots were refused a vote to enter into the treaty of union in 1706/1707.
You will find that information on UK parliament site., copy it for ruture reference.

The other parallel reset button is knowing that the “Queen of Scots” ( not Scotland) never gave Royal assent to the treaty of union, it has always only been presumed,
You will find that information on the Law Society of Scotland.

The other reset button is that when Englands Westminster parliament called Scottish peers and barons to Westminster it was after the Scottish parliament was closed EXTINGUISHED and SINE DINE’d
So No Scottish representative from the Scottish parliament have ever sat in Westminster parliament.

Xaracen,

you tripped over and fell over your own legs from the starting block of your comment.

Scotland doesn’t have a constitution. Historically, it was once a nation, but isn’t now. It’s a region of a much better nation that is known as the UK. Scotland is about as important as Yorkshire is to the UK. But rather chippier, and weekly getting more on the nation’s tits with the endless whining. Plus, it’s expensive, and not doing anything to address that.

James Che,

you are reliably loopy with your endlessly repeated batshit ancient guff misunderstanding, but that post is loopier than a loopy thing in a loop the loop.

Scots are part of the UK. It’s pretty much what is printed on the tin of what the UK is.

@Geri
I see. Just as well she didn’t get her way, then… not content with being ruled by Westminster, she would rather be dictated by someone else.
Too bad, globalists.

@ Geri
The UKers infesting the btl here with their dishonest rambling most certainly DO have good reason to resist Scotland Independence.
Without Scotland, the England UK is in their own words
Too poor-
Too wee
and as the World is increasingly aware, too stupid.
They can’t envision survival without Scotland. Hence the threats of violence, the lies and deviant spook army activities.

Here we go – SNP 2015 General Election Manifesto:

Europe

Will oppose a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU. Will demand “double majority” lock, meaning that Britain would remain part of the EU unless England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland all vote to leave.

That seems some way short of the claim that *We’ll not be dragged out of the EU* was a manifesto commitment and more like a wishlist.

Still, recollections may differ, as somebody famous once said.

It’s all water under the bridge now, but if the SNP had said, prior to the EU Referendum, that in the absence of the “double majority” lock, then they would have started immediate preparations for Indy, I would have a lot more sympathy.

It would certainly have altered the voting intentions of many Scots, including me.

A Scot Abroad said;
“Xaracen, you tripped over and fell over your own legs from the starting block of your comment.

Scotland doesn’t have a constitution. Historically, it was once a nation, but isn’t now. It’s a region of a much better nation that is known as the UK. Scotland is about as important as Yorkshire is to the UK. But rather chippier, and weekly getting more on the nation’s tits with the endless whining. Plus, it’s expensive, and not doing anything to address that.”

Your ignorance and desperation are getting more obvious by the day, and your tantrums more frequent and wild as a result.

From Scotland’s 1689 Claim of Right (Online Records of the Parliaments of Scotland);

“Declaration of the Scottish Convention of the Estates

Whereas King James the Seventh being a professed papist did assume the regal power, and acted as King without ever taking the oath required by law, whereby the King, at his access to the government is obliged to swear, to maintain the Protestant religion, and to rule the people according to the laudable laws; and did by the advice of wicked and evil counsellors, invade the fundamental constitution of this Kingdom and altered it from a legal limited monarchy, to an arbitrary despotic power; …”

There you go, ASA, Scotland’s constitution mentioned explicitly in one of its own legal documents, pointing out that it took the form of a ‘legal limited monarchy’, and it did so to justify what it did next, which was to legally sack King James VII for his violations of that constitution; and just to remind the doubters, that was a perfect demonstration of the lack of sovereignty of the Scottish monarch and of his parliament, which was sacked along with him.

And for your information, those ‘laudable laws’ were and still are Scotland’s constitution, and are guaranteed their permanence in Scotland by the Treaty.

Slight correction I have to make..

..cause SNP actually had a triple mandate. They went on to win Holyrood elections too that same year.

A triple mandate given to Sturgeon by Scotland & Sturgeon shat it. Spaffed it all up the wall for absolutely hee-haw. Not even a proxy wee new pretendy Devo power in return for rolling over & playing ignorant. Not even an unimportant one regarding legislation to hold a fete or something like the absolute irrelevant road signs LOL

I wonder what screws Mayhem turned in that hotel room. WTF was it even held there in the first place? Must’ve been off the record bullshit kept out of the FMs official residence.

There should be an inquiry of what exactly was discussed.

Xaracen,

Scotland and Scots are all you say, a nation a people,a Country.

But the Scots as a nation themselves remain separate and unattached to the GB Westminster parliament and from the later UK Westminster parliament it state this on the UK parliament site.

That all concerned saw the Scots people and nation as a separate entity from the Scottish 1707 entity of parliament, and from the peers and barons within that parliament,

They also viewed the Nation of Scots as a separate Sovereign entity from the monarch,
This is perhaps why the Queen Anne did not or could not give royal assent to the Treaty according to the Law Society of Scotland.
It is Under propaganda that royal assent has/ was presumed to be given though,

Other wise there was no necessity to debate by politicians on wether to give the Scots a vote at all in 1706/1707 on joining the treaty of union after everyone else respectively had made their decision on a treaty,

The Scots to this day remain separate from the GB and UK parliament and those who’s names and signatures committed themselves to a treaty whilst not actually including Scots the nation of people,

Many have falsely argued that in those days the people did not get consideration to vote and there was no democracy,

However in this one recorded instance it was debated wether to give the Scots a vote to join the treaty of union as evidenced from the Westminster parliament site,
The decision not to give the Scots a vote after discussion because the Scots were likely to vote NO,
Tells us is this particular instance the Scots did not join the treaty of union, the option to join by vote in Scotland was withheld,

The discussion and debate on a vote to join the treaty the union surprisingly enough was never considered for the english nation.

Again this is perhaps cue to the fact that a monarch in Scotland was not Sovereign,
The people are.

A Scot Abroad,
Actually you are considerably ignorant of historic record.

The not so loopy fact from the UK parliament recorded site 2023 states that Scots as a people and nation were considered Sovereign Scots, enough democratically from the elite and monarchy of Scotland that a vote should be given, not to Englands nation, but to the Scottish nation.

By not given it after discussion leaves Sovereign Scots outside the treaty of Union.

The old guff and nonsense is quite up to date in 2023 on the The Westminster parliament site that deals with the other Country of the UK,

BDTT

link to thoughtco.com

This is why we seek total independence . The likes of A Scot fae somewhere, J Main, dasBlimf etc are on here is beyond me?

It’s a independence site so if they don’t want it- why even come on here ?

Have they not got some knitting to get on with.

Up to date ( not old guff, stuff or nonsense) according to Westminster parliament site in 2023.

The Scottish parliament extinguished itself from the treaty of union by agreeing to the terms/ conditions and was immediately extinguished once domestic ratification took place in both parliament,

That extinguished the Scottish domestic Act immediately,

For Englands parliament could no longer use the Scotland domestic Acts to the treaty, as they were not english parliaments domestic law,

Neither were they to become international law when extinguished by the agreed terms and conditions of ratification.

The treaty of union Act/s terminated with extinguishing the Scottish parliament from entering the union,

The Acts remain some of the last Acts of the Old Scottish parliament before it Closed its doors from the treaty.

Englands Westminster parliament had or ever had passed a law, statue or piece of legislation to accept Scots law acts into its parliament,

When the ( Scottish parliaments laws acts) failed to enter the new GB parliament once the Scottish parliament ceased in a parliamentary union with Westminster,
So cid the Authority of Westminsters English parliament to then convert iScots domestic law that hac ceased into a international treaty..

The 1706/1707 Westminster parliament mislead the other nations ,

John Main.

You spout absolute horseshit.

It was a dead cert England was going to Brexshit. You obviously weren’t paying attention to the toxic campaign tapping into England’s inherent racism. Swarms were coming, the Turks, EUs army, the Tory vans & billboards etc etc
Resulting in the frenzy that seen an MP murdered.

You’d have had to be wearing blinkers not to see the direction they were going to take..

But hey, worked on you eh? All you needed was a slogan on a bus!!

But if you’d actually listened to parly it told the real story of why it was an exit. The EU was starting to clamp down on countries failing to uphold their rules & directives..

1. Alignment between countries over Pensions. STAT!
2. Land reform. New rules of a land registry of Countries declaring who owned what, by whom & where & relevent taxes due.

& Bojos ambition was to be PM. Whatever way the cards fell with Brexshit & he backed leave cause it was winning & as he’s a lazy bastard, all the groundwork had already been won.

dasBlimp said;
“Much as I hate to jump in on someone else’s debate, but I think what you are saying there is that there isn’t a written constitution. Unless…unless you pick out separate words from the 16000 digitised copies and then you can string them together to fit the words of the constitution that you have in your head, Damnably clever that, xaracen.”

From your analysis, there is therefore no English or UK constitution either. Damnably clever, that, dasBlimp!

STU,

I fully realise that you’re life is not as it should be for you and perhaps your family due to many outside influences,
And I wish you well in resolving these issues,

Perhaps while not much is developing politically you could give yourself a wee break by posting some of your lovely photos again, I am sure we can manage for a few days or a week as long as we know you will be back,

I myself have been through a tough few years and I know there is nothing quite like nature and good joke to bring happy faces Solace to the soul,

Your are more than just a supply chain facts and news site for Scottish independence supporters, you are a human being first, and you have family,

I am Not suggesting it is compulsary by any means.,your continued dedication is amazing and much appreciated,
When your busy looking out for others, sometimes you can forget or are forced to forget about yourself in the mix, just taking a wee moment for you and yours and enjoy the summer while it lasts,
Everyone can manage for a short period I am sure, perhaps other commenters and posters could tide you over with contributions meanwhile if they able too 🙂

@robbo says:12 July, 2023 at 4:03 pm

It’s a independence site so if they don’t want it- why even come on here ?

Two reasons, Bob:

1) I’m wanting to be persuaded.

2) As a Sovereign Scot, I feel it is my patriotic duty to try to improve a little on the gibberings of some of the regular roasters. It pains me to see Scots publicly making such utter fools of themselves and our country.

Re 1) above, on you go, fill yer boots.

Have they not got some knitting to get on with.