The morality of nationalism
Posted on
February 26, 2017 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
No.5: Tom Morton, former BBC broadcaster and No campaigner.
Previously:
(All clips via the always-excellent Phantom Power Films.)
Really viewing these with much optimism for the debate to come.
After the crap from today, it’s good to hear some encouraging news.
Much applause to everyone who grabs the thistle by the thorns and agrees to do one of these NO to YES videos. 😀
It can not be easy to have been a supporter of NO in 2014 and now finding yourself crossing the big divide to join YES. Everyone appreciates the effort that this requires and we welcome everyone with open arms and love of a fellow traveler towards independence.
I’m not sure what I would want any local NO supporters to see first, these videos OR the articles about deportations and gays being deported back to Afghanistan where Homosexuality is illegal.
This latest video was something of a surprise to me at least. Having read Tom Morton’s articles in the Graun at the time, he seemed to be a diehard Labourite if ever there was one. So if he has changed his mind, the tectonic plates of Scottish politics are definitely shifting, and an earthquake is surely coming.
Welcome as his conversion is, personally I find his individual take rather too reminiscent of Labourite self-righteousness. But whatever it took to get him to change is worth having, and will surely shift many others too, so all to the good.
I agree with him that we need to harden up the case for independence the next time round, but deferring for two years as he suggests would be to lose too much precious momentum. The very Brexit which was part of the reason that brought him (among many others) to “yes” would be a done deal by then. We need to time things so that the UKGov has to handle both crises (EU and Scotland) together.
Let’s do our own little bit of “divide and conquer”!
That trickle is getting bigger by the day. It’ll soon be a big burn…
Welcome aboard Tom, I hope your wise words will inspire others like you to make the same journey and make Scotland a better place for all our people!
@Robert J Sutherland
I have to agree with you Robert and admit to feeling slightly uncomfortable about this one even though new folk are always welcome
Hi folks
Off topic but one of the key points we will hear endlessly about in the coming months is – the deficit.
Here’s what kezia and ruth (sooty and sweep) don’t want you to understand about deficits. Indeed it’s very likely that they don’t understand it themselves..
link to archive.is
Sky News Review going Ape about another Indy referendum
Next 20 years North Sea Oil will be a debt not income
Boy they do love to run Scotland down that pair don’t they Sinky! The news presenter himself wasn’t much better either!
These are enlightening and given that at some local SNP meetings power plays going on.
It seems to me the wider YES movement is much more friendly and less hierarchical.
If you wish to have your skills utilised in SNP its seems the only route is street work.
Thankfully in common weal and wider YES movement more can be achieved.
So big thank you to no to yes folk making their videos.
Also to Stu and his team for all the work done here.
Don’t get me wrong I do admire a lot of the SNP politicians for what they do.
But to be an activist its soil destroying going round doors in 1 and 2s
In rural areas hats what it’s like as a team has to cover 4 villages so it’s 1 and 2s.
It is a concern but as SNP hold bulk of seats both in WM and Scottish Parliament we need their mandate.
So I compromise hold my SNP membership for now, canvas and leaflet a bit.
I write and challenge on Twitter unionist articles and people with facts and hope my speech and negotiation skills can be used somewhere in yes movement to better advantage.
I have found other recent SNP members feel the same with their skills not being used.
Why don’t I stand for councillor? Well I was 23 years a union local Secretary and had many dealings with council paid managers. They are not easy. I would see being a councillor as similar to what I did in trade union negotiations.
Strategy and policy are my skills so I await a new time.
However like minded as on here we must present a continuous face of positive ways for our cause with occasional humour, so for me that I don’t take mshelf too seriously.
It just goes to show you … we who have been wanting independence for years, thinking about it, discussing it, campaigning for it, living through the hopes and disappointments, have to remember that the “Eureka!” moment of realising the only viable future for the nation comes to people at different times. We can get pissed off that others seem to be clinging obstinately and irrationally to a failing union in which our country’s resources, potential and prospects will always be sacrificed to the prosperity of the south of England, but we should be patient: the solution is so sound and obvious that eventually, to anyone who wants to put Scotland’s interests first, it can’t be denied.
I like the order these are being complied in.
1-3 were very happy and easy going.
4-5 were about the reality of having to work very hard to get this.
Tom Morton!
I’m looking forward to #6
Sinky@10.42
Scotland is much, much more than oil (we know it), yet still the Yoon Media/parties “don’t get it”.
Simples.
When the day comes, and it will, the Yoons will start to question, who is going to fund the London/south east infrastructure?, because Scotland has been robbed for generations to pay for it.
When reality sets in and the rest of England has to start funding the Empires pet projects in the south shires then the shit will truly hit the fan.
It will be too late for Northern/Midland England, because it will be those areas who will get shafted, we will have our own vision once we are freed from the Matrix, and it will definitely not include funding England. (been there, done it)
Welcome aboard neighbour glad to have you with us.
Auld Rock
I love these videos, thank you Tom.
I have to say that Tom Morton was one of the more articulate No campaigners. He will be a sore loss to that side of the argument. It is also rather encouraging for the prospect of a Yes vote.
A prospect that may get a further boost if the Tories end freedom of movement in a couple of weeks when Article 50 is launched as now seems to be being mooted.
Makes you wonder what took them so longer to realise being screwed by a succession of Westminster Governments would lead to disease.
May’s forthcoming announcement to end immigration from the EU on the Article 50 trigger should hasten a few more in the direction of Yes, even if it is only to protect their bottom-line from being screwed over yet again.
All puns intended.
test
*icles* 😀
Kevin Evans @ 23:02,
In fairness to Tom Morton in the latest “no to yes” video, his take on things likely not being a complete walkover in the first wee while of an independent Scotland is a helpful touch of realism that will perhaps be more convincing to many doubters than the immense sense of frustrated potential that generally motivates we indyref1 (and earlier) veterans.
And it represents a major step forward from his previous negative “we can’t possibly afford it” belief that still seems to have a cold steely grip on most remaining Labourites. If Tom Morton can free himself from that debilitating notion, he can hopefully help others do it too, and all very welcome.
Being able to recover self-belief in a better future (and in one’s fellow citizens), even when circumstances may not necessarily promise to be too easy in the short term, that takes courage.
[…] Wings Over Scotland The morality of nationalism No.5: Tom Morton, former BBC broadcaster and No campaigner. Previously: (All clips via […]
Excellent stuff. Well made videos- perfect for the coming campaign. When the new organisation starts we need to properly fund Phantom Power to do all the PPBs and as many Journey to Yes as they can.
They should also take on doing short, easily digestible pieces with experts highlighting our strengths and destroying no myths.
The latest madness on ending freedom of movement in a matter of weeks should bring things into focus.
If he would take the gig I would be sweet talking Ivan Rogers into taking on a role as liason with the EU.this is the guy who was going to negotiate for the UK and walked away in disgust.
It’s a pipe dream really as he didn’t seem too SNP friendly but we have to realise that we have precious little experience dealing with the European Commission. Switched on guy though- very impressive telling truth to power at the brexit committee
What a weekend. Disgusted with sadiq and labour- they are all very quiet on social media when Westminster shows her talons… very quick to call me and my family and friends the same as racists and bigots.
Firstly I never read any of his scripts.
I did listen to him from time to time.
I admit to being on the edge of his social circle many moons ago and was in his company on a number of occasions and I was quite shocked to discover his view in 2014 , as I had him down as one of the Yessers in the Beeb …… Silly me , but then they seam to live in their wee bubble sheltered from reality.
When I watched his video this morning I felt “you plonker Wodney”
Tom has portrayed himself as an intelligent, educated & informed adult yet he has only recently realised what SLab etc etc are about?
I very much welcome your crossing over Tom , however I’m astonished Tom , your words “things SEAMED” that way in 2014
The clip felt a bit apologetic ? Maybe that’s a good thing.
Welcome aboard Tom , our next dram will have a more enjoyable conversation.
I trust you will find more enthusiasm this time round.
We should all welcome Tom Morton and others like him who have moved from NO to YES. I hope he will take many of the middle classes with him, especially as they are going to be screwed with Brexit.
I don’t think it is a coincidence that the highest ‘No’ voting areas were also the highest ‘Remain voters: Edinburgh; Stirling; East Renfrewshire and East Dunbartonshire.
Always nice to see more Scots using reason and who are apparently deaf to British Labour’s smears of our desire for self-determination. Imagine that, British Labour valuing British nationalism more than the principle of universal human rights. Like the BBC, perhaps the clue is in the name, eh BLiS___d?
Social Theory’s Methodological Nationalism
Myth and Reality
link to journals.sagepub.com
The Ethics of Nationalism
link to oxfordscholarship.com
I don’t care what his piece sounded like, in point of fact I haven’t listened to it.
The simple fact that he was, as someone else has said, one of the more articulate advocates of a No vote means his move to Yes is all the more welcome. File him with the Better Together campaigner and the like.
These conversions do not just boost our argument; some of these individuals would have been seen as key allies in the upcoming campaign for No. Their departure from that side had they chosen simply to stand back and ignore it would have been bad enough for No, but that they’ve done the full 180 degree shift and now oppose is hugely damaging.
With regards to all former No voters; I do not care how they arrived at Yes, I only care that they arrived. These people are all welcome even if some with slightly more scrutiny than others. People like Tom Morton are the very reason I stopped being bitter about No voters a matter of days after that horrible event in September 2014. You do not gain numbers to your side by telling your enemies that they’re to blame for anything that Westminster does. Even if, as I did the day after the vote, you actually believe that very thing.
Bizarre times. Came across a guy on twitter asking what he was supposed to do if freedom of movement comes to an end next month as per the telegraph piece. He was asking how his french partner would get back in.
I found myself suggesting travel via Republic of Ireland via cairnryan as we are still in the common travel area and the government won’t have all the apparatus in place.
Is this seriously where we have arrived at in 2017? Marseilles, Oran, Casablanca, Lisbon, Dublin, Belfast, Cairnryan, Edinburgh?
The Scottish Government should tell them to fucking ram it and assume control of our borders. We are still in the EU. Keep the borders open and make them fucking react. They only have power while we let them have power. SG has already moved into foreign affairs so they just need to DO IT. We have right on our side and the entirety of the EU.
@ Ian McCubbin
Bide yer time. It will be with us soon enough and we can slip the party leish again. For now there’s really only one show in town, but think of all that networking you are doing. How much easier to do your own thing when you know which of the guys are dependable and which are happy to talk the talk.
Tam Jardine
Just posted this on the previous thread about an hour ago…
Paper review on the radio – The Times tomorrow says
The cut-off date for EU citizens living here will be one and the same day as article 50 is triggered. 3.2 million will no longer have rights to live here ‘for much longer.’
Then another Tory guy speaking says that the important thing to worry about is that another 200,000 Rumanian and Bulgarians could come here in the two years before the UK leaves…
They just don’t give up on immigration do they?
Good to see Tom Morton as the latest No to Yes. What took him so long? Well, even the really smart guys and gals have blind spots. We’re all vulnerable to a bit of cognitive dissonance from time to time. And we all have deep seated notions and views that are hard to shake off. We all have tipping points and they’re all different cos we’re all unique.
I don’t think he’s any great authority on anything. I don’t think he can predict the future. But it’s good to see that he’s changed his mind.
Independence is the best way forward for Scotland. We all know that. But i guess we have to accept (i know we do) that others aren’t quite there yet. But we’re fighting the good fight, for the right reasons, and we’ll prevail.
What a silly man, having doubts about the morality of Nationalism. You’d never catch me worrying about such things.
I’m right there with you Tam. We should make a stand against any and all deportations. Protect our EU folks with our words and actions…my daughter is married to a lovely Egyptian they have two beautiful babies…they are in London and I worry about him. This cannot happen here. Not in my name!
Cherry
Exactly. Not in my name. The corollary is of course (if the EU behaved in the same way) that we can’t move there, work over there? Or visit my family in France?
The problem (and it’s a big one) is that they neither love nor hate people. They just don’t factor them into their thinking at all.
Fucking raging! Time to turn in.
Tom Morton is a catch and a half..!
More importantly, is the amount of people he brings with him..!
Saddiq Khan’s disgraceful insults and the desperate attempt to deny them should seal the deal at the council elections.
Do labour sit down every week and have a contest to see who can be the biggest fuck up ?
SKY news summary:
The oil that Scotland never had was Baad now it’s even worse because it’s a debt
Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t want a referendum it’s all a ploy to keep the members happy
Even if Scotland votes Yes to a referendum it’s only advisory
What else, oh yes Hadrians wall with razor wire on it and borders even though the stupid Arses don’t even know Hadrians bloody wall’s in England
Imaginary London Oppression they say it doesn’t really happen Sturgeon makes it all up
All this crap from the usual uniformed English bubble “Journalists” was preceded by the announcement of immediate immigration curbs, new reforms on folk not getting pensions till they’re 80 and other brutal announcements today of deportations of folk who have lived in the UK for 30 years married with grand kids but in some legal twisted way the Tories get to throw them out of the country with £12 quid in their pockets to overseas countries
Nah! naebdy’s oppressed eh
Well certainly not the “Journalists” who talk complete and utter made up verbal diarrhea and can’t stop it spewing out of their uneducated gubs
I cannae wait for the Ides of March
For over two years Nicola Sturgeon has been mapping out almost word for deed what the Tories would do in power and she has been spot on exact with every single word she said
and yet still some folk have endowed her with some mystical power in that she made it happen to suit herself and she’s loving it, so that definitely makes her responsible for what the Tories are doing
And I would suggest to those folk who think like that, if Nicola Sturgeon was indeed that powerful a necromancer she’d have feckin magic’d us Independent by now instead of putting up with years of vile filthy abuse from folk who are determined not to think for themselves or even read something other than the “Daily Stupidities”
Ach I’m away to my bed! efter some tea! an a biscuit, an a fag! an a heart tablet!
Re Sky newspapers
Just shocking the way all 3 gleefully talked about Scotland being not viable. Oil running out they have to keep the Nat’s angry at London.
Hadrian’s wall will be rebuilt, with razor wire, this time.
I know they are idiots, but they have a platform to preach this division and denigration.
We must get out, and Tom Morton said some thing I keep saying, we must win, or this is really off the table, for far more than 10 years.
Dr Jim @ 01:32:
Hah! Let them try that one on after a win for indynow, given the example of their precious EUref. They will hear our derisory laughter all the way to France!
My feeling is they will try their damnedest instead to insert some kind of “poison pill” in the referendum ballot itself, either some kind of numbers quota or an additional “federalist” distraction option.
All of which we can reject beforehand using indyref1 and EUref as precedents.
Duncan Hothersall on Labourhame about why Labour should stand shoulder to shoulder (my words) with the Tories against Independence:
“Labour is not a unionist party. But in stark constitutional times, our commitment to solidarity and wealth redistribution means we are right to be firmly a pro-UK party.”
Would that be redistribution of what little wealth the poor have left, to the richest in society which is what his bestest pals the Tories are doing?
I welcome Tom Mortons commitment now to voting Yes. I would welcome all that change their mind as it is obviously the only way we will win a second referendum.
I didn’t though enjoy this video as much as I did the “unknowns” in the first four videos. It seemed to me that Tom Morton found this transition an extremely difficult choice with a slight reluctance to admit he might have been wrong first time around.
Then I realised that these videos are not aimed at me, they are for those that voted No first time around and are possibly going through the same agonising thought process as he did.
Doubting yourself is hard, putting aside all your previous beliefs is very hard. Once you have done it though then it’s a relief and you can get on with your life in a more positive manner.
I’m glad Tom Morton has changed his mind, I hope his video helps others to do the same, we need their support. Be welcoming to anyone that changes their mind.
Excellent filming and production again Phantom Power Films! I see a great future for your enterprise in Independent Scotland! Thank you = )
Welcome Tom Morton.
It sounds like that was quite a difficult journey for you. Hope your heart continues to grow stronger 🙂
Thanks Rev Stu, excellent and thought provoking articles = )
Tom Morton YES
Couldn’t’ believe Tom was a NO. His son’s a Doctor was in the Bake Off. Was his wife Labour?
Bring it on.
May has started her campaign to try and stop Independence. The Tories are a disgrace. Brexit will finish them off. Labour are useless.
Get rid of a Sky. There are other sources. Murdoch is a criminal.
I had lunch yesterday with an old school friend whom I had not seen for about a year. She was telling me she had been down at Portsmouth on the day after the Brexit vote, seeing her elderly uncle and aunt.
He is ex-Royal Navy, joined as a boy rating, retired as a full Commander, with the OBE etc. Her aunt is an Anglo-Scot; both are “Proud Scots but” “UKOK Better Together, Tory-voting Brexiters”. In their eighties, they are not for turning.
However, her Anglo-Scottish cousins, educated at Queen Victoria School, Dunblane, one a teacher, the other an executive with one of the world’s top charities were appalled at the Brexit vote.
Although they have lived all their adult lives in England, they have said – Scotland must gain its Independence, and, when that happens, they are coming home, because they cannot face the reality of England out of Europe.
The cousin who works for the charity made the point that the biggest pro-Remain voting areas were Scotland, London, Oxford and Cambridge – the most-intelligent parts of the UK. An interesting thought.
O/T. How the right-wing are able to influence elections using information about the electorate gathered by computers from Facebook.
Read on – if you use Facebook. But be prepared for a shock.
“Facebook was the key to the entire campaign, Wigmore explained. A Facebook ‘like’, he said, was their most “potent weapon”. “Because using artificial intelligence, as we did, tells you all sorts of things about that individual and how to convince them with what sort of advert. And you knew there would also be other people in their network who liked what they liked, so you could spread. And then you follow them. The computer never stops learning and it never stops monitoring.”
link to theguardian.com
These NO to YES personal reflections are absolutely priceless. I hope many soft NOs get the chance to view them (that’s the real challenge – easier said than done). Keep em coming. 🙂 IMO, recent converts to YES will play a critical role in the next campaign. They will have all the passion and energy of a recent convert, combined with a greater insight as to why our target people voted NO in 2014.
Hopefully, many thoughtful, articulate ex-NOs will play a very active role in the battle to come. They should be welcomed with open arms – we need them.
Tom was making a subtle appeal to Labour in Scotland in that video.
He is saying that the door is still open for them to work for Yes as a vehicle for social justice.
Very clever, in my opinion.
Get this out on social media. You can find it on Youtube, then share to Facebook etc.
And a big “Thank you” to Tom!
Links
link to indyref2.scot
link to thecanary.co
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
link to indyref2.scot
link to irishtimes.com
link to uk.businessinsider.com
link to skwawkbox.org
link to politicshome.com
link to thelondoneconomic.com
link to welfareweekly.com
link to zelo-street.blogspot.co.uk
link to politico.eu
Nana: Good Morning,
Just another wet Monday until I get my Links, Thank You. Kettle’s on!
Peace Always
link to euobserver.com
Theresa May poised to announce end of free movement for new EU migrants next month
link to archive.is
US weighs withdrawal from UN Human Rights Council
link to archive.is
Tory cuts are seizing 800 vital Motability cars a WEEK from disabled people
link to archive.is
Good morning Smallaxe. Bright but chilly here, I did not want to get up today.
Nana, I don’t think I have said it before, and I don’t post often but read a lot. Your links are a big reason why I come here – Thank you.
@yesindyref2
“Would that be redistribution of what little wealth the poor have left, to the richest in society which is what his bestest pals the Tories are doing?”
Absolutely. Here is a good link to postivenmoney’s website about how the city of London drives inequality..
link to positivemoney.org
We sure need some economic big hitters who can blow all this crap away about Scotland’s lack of wealth. I can think of a few…
The BBC will continue to interview ‘economists’ who’s pay packet depends on them NOT understanding how aggregate economies actually work.
O/t
See wee J Cook former BBC scotchland reporter all dressed up in his dicky bow at the Oscars. This is his reward for attacking the First Minister over Carmichaels/ lib dem/ Tory lying email in the infamous interview in George Square. Is it true he was moved to the USA to avoid being interviewed as to his part in the issue? All he had to do was to check the facts first. Do you think he was involved in the Oscars debacle?
@Nana
Mornin’ Nana. 🙂
EU movement piece is pick of the bunch. May holds gun to head of EU would probably be more accurate headline though.
So much for ‘our friends and partners’ spiel. I’d like to say to our continental friends looking in on this thread… welcome to our world.
Westminster has a very shoogly grasp of the terms friendship and partnership. Which is to say they none of the former and the latter are approached as random and confusing letters on any piece of paper.
Safe to say Nana that rights, human and civic, mean little to May and even less to members of her government and that chamber. These aren’t the first rights they have/are willing to remove and they won’t be the last by a long shot.
The folk in the videos above the line have come to realise this, each in their own way and time.
Folk NEED to remember that yesterday is yesterday. Every new YES vote is required and necessary. No recriminations, no bad grace. We hold out our hand to every new voice, every new convert, every new Scot.
If we don’t, then the removal of our rights will be the least of our worries.
Dr Jim says:
27 February, 2017 at 1:32 am
SKY news summary:
These journalists are typical of the metropolitan media outlook and why we will never get a balanced view from BBC London . All the more reason for a Scottish Broadcasting Corporation running TV in Scotland.
I’m surprised no one is yet talking about the UK’s TOTAL debt.
It stands at around £6.5trillion. We get to walk away from most of that.
@Gerry
Thanks Gerry, pleases me that you are happy and reading my links.
This is funny
link to twitter.com
See that rent for housing trident on the Clyde in an independent Scotland until it’s moved, ooft! It’ll probably be more than enough to offset any Westminster financial penalty they can dream up, and then some. Imagine they had to move it immediately for not playing nice.
It should be a response to project fear “What about your pensions, eh? – “Where you sticking your subs?”
We can call it project NayFear!
Morning Macart
I’m thinking this from May must be illegal as we have not left the EU. I saw a tweet yesterday reminding EU folk living in Scotland to vote in May. We have to get everyone out to vote.
I’m losing my beauty sleep over it all!!
Giving Goose
I wondered that too, if there was a subtle undertone of appeal to Labour voters.
We have all heard that line used endlessly – it’s not about social justice in Scotland but the whole of the UK. However, there needs to be an acceptance, we can’t achieve anything like that.
I honestly believe an Indy Scotland might help what’s left of any support for social justice down south, but we have to admit, they poll completely differently from us.
It must be hard for folk like Morton, who by nature, have formed very hard opinions, it’s an aspect of his job too.
Well done, that man. They are doing their bit.
I’d love to hear some No to Yessers who now thought independence was the best way forward for their own pocket. A pensioner worried about the UK’s plans for their pension, or a banker convinced Edinburgh in the EU is a better place to do business than Brexit London. After all it was financial self interest that started the union, and the perception of self interest that led people to vote No in 2014.
It’s the only argument we have to win – it’s nice to have people like Mike Dailly and Tom Morton talking about social justice but my perception is they are late movers – most people who cared about society already voted Yes.
JaceF says:
And it will have to move fairly quickly. I think it is often overlooked that it is inconceivable that one country could store its entire WMD arsenal within a base it leased in another country. I’m no expert in international law but I just can’t see how it would legally acceptable.
Medium/long term base leasing for the purposes of WMD storage will simply be unacceptable to the world at large.
NO to YES discussion with one of my private students, he’s 18 or 19 years old.
“In 2014, I just didn’t get the whole ‘vote for independence’ thing…
Then the Brexit vote happened.
Now I get it – I totally get it.”
@HandandShrimp says: 26 February, 2017 at 11:23 pm:
“I have to say that Tom Morton was one of the more articulate No campaigners. He will be a sore loss to that side of the argument.”
Very good point, HandandShrimp. It seems this phase of the game is coming about at just the right time. These new Indy folk all seem to have something in common, besides all crossing over, that is.
This is that each of them are thinkers and analysers of the change they are making. This comes at a time when the stark ugly face of the Brexiteers is becoming ever more obvious.
Today’s news exposes just such an stark ugly, “Little Britain”, face. The item concerns Irene Clennell.
Irene was being held in a Scottish detention centre but is to be sent back to her country of origin without any warning. Many would conclude on those bare facts that the lady is an illegal immigrant but they would be wrong.
Irene has been married to a, “British”, man for 27 years and has been living near Durham with her husband and her two sons and has a UK born Granddaughter.
Apparently Irene spent some periods of time in Singapore caring for her dying parents, (who have now died), and this broke her rights to remain in the United Kingdom.
She only had £12 in her pocket when put on a plane to Singapore and has nowhere to live in there. She is badly needed here in the United Kingdom as her husband, John, is seriously ill.
Now just what sense is there served by deporting this lady as it will probably cost the English care system a great deal more to care for her ill husband than having his loving wife remain here in Britain.
These Westminster Establishment Tory Brexiteers are inhuman and we need out of this union. Seems these crossover people are the start of a landslide as more people see the stark future the union hold for all but the very rich and very powerful.
Craig P says:
Good point. Existing Yessers and recent converts are motivated by democratic ideals and social justice. A great many NOs were/are motivated by personal circumstances.
We need to reach out to absolutely every NO even though some will be more difficult to convert. Those driven by financial concerns need special attention!
Brexit will begin to make the Union look not such a good bet, but we need more.
My solution for pensioners is to make it iScotland policy that our state pensions will be among the best in Europe, not the worst. Perhaps a commitment to rise from year two to year ten of independence until they match the best.
O/t
Oscar cups, so what real news is being hurried? Not a mention of EUs losing their rights to stay post A50.
Oscar fups!
@Nana
Right now its a threat, nothing more. One to keep the hard right of her party and the brexiteers happy. Possibly and hopefully also provoke a response from the EU nations. Test the waters as it were.
That she would issue such a thing though is pretty damn grim in and of itself.
I’m hoping it will focus the minds of New Scots however. That this is real and it’s happening now. That government in Westminster has neither heart nor soul and thinks nothing of removing rights to suit its own narrow interests.
There is a home here to be had and made in Scotland and we need help to build it. We can only hold out a friendly hand. It’ll take some courage and imagination of the type shown in the Phantom Power vids to accept that hand.
Westminster were given a last chance by many, though tbf some would continue to offer them unlimited opportunity to abuse trust. How and ever, those who in good faith and for whatever reason decided on one more chance, have seen how their trust has been repaid in the past two and a half years. They need to know they are welcome and needed. Whatever their reason, whatever their point of origin. If they believe right now in our right to self determination I for one consider them welcome.
@Nana, as always your links are very informative. Many thanks.
I noted in one place the EU have agreed that EU citizens in the UK, and UK in the EU, should have the right to stay up until the UK leaves. This will be their negotiating position.
Meanwhile, another says that May will wish Article 50 day to be the cut off for right to stay.
Now, obviously each side will have opening positions from which they are willing compromise.
However, the UK will be full in the EU for at least two years, and I consider May’s position to be basically bloody minded!
Not a good start and perhaps indicative of just how nasty these negotiations will be.
@Macart
I am interested to know what Kirsty Hughes thinks of May’s threat. I’ll be keeping an eye on her blog.
I’ve only skimmed through the latest posts from ukconstitutionallaw.org. Thought some of you might be interested in reading.
link to ukconstitutionallaw.org
link to ukconstitutionallaw.org
Have you seen this Nana?
link to buzzfeed.com
Much as I am delighted with no to yessers. Tom stated that in 2014 we didn’t have legitimacy, but suddenly 2 years later we do.
This selective amnesia is baffling and utter tripe. We have always had legitimacy. It’s just that he was too naive and ill informed to see it. If you listen to what he is saying. He isn’t apologising for not understanding. He is basically saying it’s fine now cause he approves of it. A very arrogant attitude and belittles the yes movement of 2014. We were always fighting for nationhood,democracy and social reform. We haven’t suddenly changed after Brexit.
Welcome aboard Tom but you are late to the party. We are in this mess cause of old dyed in the wool labour attitudes like yours. You don’t just get to put a halo on and be righteous. You were wrong in 2014 so should admit that rather than bury it in some polemic about perceived legitimacy.
I did Sam, I put a link up on Wings some time ago warning about this lady. link to archive.is
It is just horrifying what is happening to people. She was deported from Edinburgh airport????????????
I also saw in the news this morning five Romanian men were run over, some reports say it was intentional. That is just one of the many instances of hate crime I’ve read about since brexit.
Meant to write
warning about this lady [being deported]
I lay the blame for all this hatred squarely with the media and especially Murdoch. I agree with Ken500 6.05am cancel your sky subs. I did along with bbc licence.
Any word from young James Morton yet? He quite vociferously agreed with his father back in 2014, but he was wrapped in UJs in the baking tent back then.
Theresa May ‘Fears’ Nicola Sturgeon Will Trigger Scottish Independence Referendum During Brexit
link to archive.is
128 new members have joined in this group in just over a week thanks to Sadiq Khan’s ill-advised tweet and speech
FYI LIVE 7PM Mike Dailly, Saffron Dickson & Steven Purcell
link to livestream.com
Awoke this morning to find out that a lady who lived here for many years has been deported, and that pensioners are going to be hit with the bedroom tax as well.
In addition May is stopping new immigrants from the EU as of March.
I feel as if I have woken up in a different parallel universe. The change in my lifetime has been incredible.
We must fight tooth and claw to free ourselves from this madness. The UK lurches ever further to the right and is becoming my sworn enemy. I know we state that it is Westminster only, but remember over half of England voted for this to happen, and in spite of the consequences they push their politicians towards ever greater madness.
To those caught up in this lunacy , I offer my sincere sympathy, To those who nurture it I offer my sincere emnity.
The whole thing is utterly vile.
@ Big Jock et al
Please stop your griping and grudging and welcome Tom Morton and his ilk wholeheartedly and with open arms. Admitting you were wrong is never easy, and it is harder for decent Labour supporters who have believed for years in their party’s core values only to realised they have evaporated leaving only a hollow shell.
Going from Labour to YES is probably the hardest journey of all. Don’t make it any more difficult by discriminating against ‘latecomers to the party’
D’oh missed out the link!
128 new members have joined in this group in just over a week thanks to Sadiq Khan’s ill-advised tweet and speech
link to englishscotsforyes.org
I see the Rev is gearing up for the fundraiser, I’d best go take a look down the back of the sofa!
Great news about Tom Morton! Shetland will certainly be listening to him.
O/T
Gutted to learn of the passing of the great Bill Paxton. So many great movies and movie moments.
Condolences to his family.
RIP Bill.
Bob MACK says:
“To those caught up in this lunacy, I offer my sincere sympathy, To those who nurture it I offer my sincere enmity.”
I agree and may I add my disgust of their total lack of Humanity and empathy for their fellow humans, although I struggle to think of these people as “Human Beings”
Peace Always
You were wrong in 2014 so should admit that rather than bury it in some polemic about perceived legitimacy.”
How many people were giving the union one last chance anyway? It looked like a good deal 2014 and The Vow. Federal UK always looked pie in the sky but the devo-max promise at least made sense if you wanted it to. Its a whole new world of socio economic power and control that really could transform Scotland but it wasn’t a mad impossible dream. So now you’re either content with living in the British region of Scotland, run by tory Westminster or you really can consider the self governing nation state of Scotland. Christ only knows how much tory BBC led media FUD pressure we’re all under, to make us stop voting SNP, let alone Brexit devo-maxing it now.
What makes these videos very uplifting is that in terms of a political swing, I’m not sure back in 2014 that any one of these people would have been categorised as “undecided”. These are firm No’s.
Off course it doesn’t follow that the whole spectrum has shifted, it remains to be seen how widespread and uniformly consistent this reavaluation of the issues has been for No voters, but you can’t help feeling encouraged.
We need to be patient however. To be frank, and quite possibly unfair to Tom Morton, he sounds less like a born again YES machine, and more like a hurt Unionist abandoned by his Union, and more poignantly, his Unionist party. Even so, the big step is taken, once you open your mind to the progressive, wholesome and indefatigable logic of Independence, I would hope there is never a moment of doubt from that point forward. You HAVE stepped into the light.
Welcome aboard Tom Morton.
Very interesting video thanks for sharing – good to know how people’s opinion’s are changing. BTW if you want a laugh on the subject I really recommend this funny piece on Sturgeon threatening to call a second independence referendum unless May sets fire to a cricket bat live on camera link to thesparkmagazine.co.uk
After seeing all the despairing twitter comments from people in England about what their country had become with the Brexit vote and what could they do, it did occur that if they wanted to make a strong statement, if a few million o them joined the SNP for a couple of years it would scare the wits out of the UK Government and Labour.
Suddenly they would have real leadership from those who hadn’t just given up.
O/T Interesting article.
Well what do you know? At the beginning of a very busy news week, the Times leads with a real revelation from right under their noses. After months of patting the wee Celts on the head with bland assurances that Brexit will be fine all round, “sources “ now say that “concerns about Scotland and Northern Ireland were discussed at last week’s cabinet.. and the impact of Brexit on the UKs devolution settlement is the government’s greatest concern about the exit process.”
link to archive.is
The next Independence Referendum has to be before UK pulls Scotland out of EU,
Scotland must be still in the EU when we get Independence,
Article 50 says you have `up to` 2 years to negotiate your removal from EU,
(although it does say that if both parties agree it can take longer)
Westminster might go for a quick exit and not wait the 2 years,
agree with Tom that Indy2 needs meticulous planning but we also need to have referendum before UK leaves EU which could be sooner than the 2 years after UK initiates Article 50.
Article 50,
link to tinyurl.com
The Irene Clenell Gofundme total is now over £27,150. Her chances of getting back soon seem slim ATM but at least she is not now destitute.
link to gofundme.com
All Yes conversions are welcome.
Tribal Labour BBC man Tom Morton’s conversion is especially important.
Still blissfully unaware of his lifelong Imperial British nationalism,he has now hopefully recognised the difference between that kind of violent destructive nationalism and the healthy normal civic nationalism of Scotland and the Yes campaign.
Also good to see he has eventually realised that Labour are a self serving British nationalist institution who use the poor as vote fodder.
Very slow on the uptake but very welcome indeed.
I was surprised to see Tom move to Yes, but I’m delighted.
I used to listen to him years ago on Radio Scotland in the afternoon. A music programme.
I always thought that he was a Unionist and a bit of a “cringer”, so if Tom Morton declares he is for YES I’m sure others will follow.
Onwards we go!
ScotsRenewables says:
Agree completely.
We must all accept that most SNP voters have only become so in the last ten years.
Most Indy supports would have been pro Union in their lifetimes.
Politicians too. Tommy Sheppard was a Hackney Borough Labour councillor and stood for Labour for WM in 1992. Prior to 1985 Alex Neil was with the Labour Party and SLP. Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh stood for the Tories in the 1999 Scottish elections.
Not everyone was an SNP and Indy supporter in the past.
All are welcome when they come across.
Dugdale wittering that IndyRef2 will bring about further division in Scotland. There is one certain way to bring about a united Scotland and heal all rifts, IMO. That is Indy. With Brexit, I reckon five years after Indy there will be few Scots left who still wish they were UKers!
To those criticising the converted:
Our weapon of freedom is the electorate each of whom carry the most powerful weapon of all——-a vote.
Welcome them with open arms because we need them. Our army is the people, especially those who oppose oppression and injustice of the type currently in vogue down south which affects us all eventually. If we make a stand many will join us. I like the idea of advertising SNP open membership down south. Each individual will make us as strong as braided steel.
Let battle be joined
@Thepnr
Yeah. Had heard something about that.
Loved this: ‘The UK cabinet is on a war footing. At last week’s meeting almost the whole 90 minutes was taken up with a lengthy discussion about how to save the Union.
Each minister was told to find ways to make the case against Scottish independence in their own policy area. “Everyone around the table wants the Union to work and stay together,” No 10 said.’
Not ‘make the case for the UK’, but ‘make the case against Scottish independence’. Tells you all you need to know about PM May, her government and the political union right there. What they cannot better, they attempt to undermine or destroy.
As for ‘everyone around the table wants the union to work’? Where do you start with that utter load of bollox? Work on whose terms precisely? The terms of the Conservative ministers sitting round that table apparently and after the events of the past few days concerning May’s (let’s face it) ultimatum to EU residents, that statement should instantly set the hairs on yer neck to tingling.
Right now, we have it within our power to show those heartless bastirts the door. They’re going to attempt to convince us we don’t, or that we can’t. The article from the times and it’s quotable components gives the lie to any such strategy.
They’re holding these meetings because, for them, for what and who they represent, what they need, the threat is all too real.
They fear Scotland regaining it’s in dependence. They fear constitutional crisis and referendum precisely because we can make use of them and their results will have to be listened to and acted upon.
They fear the loss of valuable assets they would require to make their isolation work.
They KNOW they brought all of this upon themselves, though again, they’ll attempt to convince the public it’s the Scottish govenment’s fault, or some demographic that desperately needs to be hated out of existence.
So yes! Fear is their driving motivation. Not fear for the public good, but fear for the loss of assets. I mean, geographical borders, natural assets, tax base and loss of face are far more important than people after all.
I believe its just wasting time trying to negotiate with Mayday & Co, they have had plenty time to react and work with the Scottish government , ignore them until Nicola is ready to call the next ref , and that should be a yes no answer it dosnt matter either way we still hold one .
There is something about Tom Morton’s conversion that makes me feel unsure. I can’t put my finger on it, but for some weird reason his ‘switch’ doesn’t feel to me like the other people who have come aboard the independence ship.
I hope I am wrong, I really do hope so.
Big jock.I understand where you are coming from but he’s not realy very much different from many of us on here.I had my own narritive six, seven years ago which i believed was fact” that Scotland was economicaly unviable”.In the last four years i learned that this was complete nonsense. It takes time and we all move at a different pace,some of us are by nature risk takers others not.
All of the above movers from no to yes give us more credibility and i for one are more than happy to have them on our side.I only wish we could get to people like my brother but alas he is a lost cause.
Rumours again from Westminster that Theresa May and her team plan to refuse permission for a Scottish referendum but want to delay doing it until a quick Brexit can be arranged in order to thwart Scotlands timing on staying in the EU
If they’re F….D they want to make sure we are too
Macart says:
They almost lost last time with that strategy!
They only won when they pained a rosy picture of Scotland’s future within their UK. And how has that turned out?
Their only viable strategy is to attack Indy this time. Any Vow2 will be very low on credibility, but they will probably try.
Last time the YES campaign promoted Indy and wasn’t over critical of the Union. Next time, with Brexit and the Tory attitudes to Scotland, the NO camp are going to be backfooted when it comes to which future will be best/worst!
Yes2 probably doesn’t need to attack the Union, Brexit itself and the EU negotiating team will be doing that for us!
All makes me feel reservedly optimistIc. And it doesn’t surprise me the Tories are shitting bricks.
Liked the vid and glad of another yesser.
What was puzzling was the arguments for his change just did not make sense.
If Labour got a grip would he switch back to no?
There is no reason why he thinks the SNP/independence cause has the moral ground now but not in 2014.
It must have been a major decision. What seemed to be his biggest motivation was seeing his family as part of Europe but not much time was spent on that aspect.
Dr Jim says:
Rather interestingly, Edna Kenny the Taoiseach has suggested that the EU deal includes an agreement to hold a reunification referendum.
Wouldn’t it be ideal if the EU insisted on an IndyRef2 as a means of resolving the Scottish constitutional issue? Dreaming? Nice to think it could happen!
@Dr Jim
Seem to recall they tried the same tack with Alex. Indyref is a bluff. You have no competence. You won’t do it, because you’re bluffing. We don’t have to let you. You need our permission. Oh, you’re not bluffing. Oh well, we will let you but only if…
Same shit different day (shrugs).
Then as now we require neither their good graces, or their permission. Having an S30 merely makes things that much smoother. They also know that a referendum is their only means of having any effect on the issue. Pretty sure they’re just as aware as we are that there is more than one balloted route to achieve an independent Scottish government.
I must admit i have never heard of this guy, but i was very surprised that he actually thought that prior to 2014 the labour party in scotland was the people’s party, well i can tell him that they have never been the people’s party in my lifetime and i am 65 years old, he has been the kind of person who has held scotland back , its good he has seen sense, but please don’t come to the party late and tell us who have allways been here what you think we should do, because while you have held us back we have never lost our motivation to do what’s right for scotland, how so called intelligent people could ever have believed all the lies over the years is beyond me, they have caused us decades of misery and poverty by voting for a labour party that was one big fat lie , look at all the hidden stuff the labour party under blair got up to, how could people not see this happening in front of their eyes, they must walk about in some kind of dream state these people, Alba Gu snooker loopy!
@Macart
“Each minister was told to find ways to make the case against Scottish independence in their own policy area.”
Yep, that quote says it all about what you need to know of the mindset of the Tories.
They will try to win by being totally negative again, I don’t think that will wash this time. We are ready for them!
I welcome anyone regardless of how they voted previously. We need the like of Tom and Mike. Their influence will help with those who felt as they did.
Tom wannabeed a biker once.
He had an MZ 250cc with a sidecar, and tried to ride with guys with Harleys.
I’m sure he did it for comic effect…
Regarding moving from No to Yes.
I believe that Scotland had to risk a No vote in 2014 in order to flush out the duplicity of Labour and unmask the hidden truth; namely that the 3 party unionist system in Scotland is and always has been one enormous con trick.
The Labour part of this con trick was revealed as one big lie.
For Traditional “thinking” Labour voters it must come as a huge shock to find out that they have been played like puppets on strings.
That’s why it appears difficult for those from this demographic, moving to Yes, to articulate that they have been fooled.
It’s like being cheated on by your loved one.
The shock will be total and although hindsight allows you to recognise the signals of lies, you are not going to admit to being fooled and to be made to look stupid.
That’s what is happening with people like Tom Morton. Pride gets in the way of admitting that you took your eye off the ball and that what was so obvious to others was missed by you.
To soften the blow, it’s probably comforting to know that an entire nation of over 5 million people was fooled and betrayed by Labour and the other Tories.
Of course I welcome Tom Morton, why wouldn’t I. Please watch the video he argues we didn’t have legitimacy back in 2014. That was my point and I stand by it. We had absolute legitimacy it’s just that he was too narrow minded to see it.
I found it insulting. He should have just said I didn’t get it, rather than bury it in this legitimacy ideal.
Conan the Librarian you should read Ton Mortons Spirit of Adventure about visiting all the Distillerys in Scotland on his Mr Z , excellant read.
@ scottieDog 10:37 pm
Thanks for the useful link 🙂
link to archive.is
Tom Morton?!?! Well, my gast is well and truly flabbered!
Fair play to him, not easy for a public figure to reverse his position on such a fundamental issue. More the merrier.
[…] Wings Over Scotland, 26 Feb: The morality of nationalism […]
Really inspiring videos and well-cut too. The general idea that we are going to need to give it everything we’ve got this time feels absolutely correct. No slacking!
I have just received an email from Ruth Davidson asking me to support her effort to prevent another referendum and begging for a donation towards that cause. I have replied
“Why would I want to stop it? And why would you? Are you frightened that the Scottish people will be allowed to DEMOCRATICALLY chose their own future?”
Poll
link to glasgowlive.co.uk