Wings Over Scotland

because it would greatly lessen the chances of the Scottish Government stalling and obstructing its way out of two inquiries into its conduct over the Alex Salmond affair delivering their verdicts before polling day.

Apparently this is exactly what is happening.

Wouldn’t Margaret Mitchell automatically take Linda Fabiani’s place as Convener?

I really don’t know, just asking…

Was Peter Murrell meant to be in front of the enquiry again today?

Just a small question.
Is the Scottish Parliament( I hate using that word) not fixed term (In time period of sitting)as per statute,and it can be called at any time, but only brought forward , but not put back?

‘Nicola Sturgeon, meanwhile, is firmly against any thoughts of postponing the election over the coronavirus, although she IS more than happy to postpone independence for the same reason. Apparently not all kinds of votes are equal.’

Yes that’s what shows their hypocrisy. One definitely should go ahead and the other under no circumstances. And the only reason at all I’ve heard postulated is ‘the electorate will think SNP are pushing independence at a time when they shouldn’t and will punish them accordingly’ which is a pretty feeble reason. If, after Brexit and the threat of a badly handled covid pandemic don’t galvanise folk to realise Scotland should make its own decisions then nothing will and no future time will matter.

They obviously want the election before they lose even more support this time so they’re in for another so many years to plan to their hearts content, but not a referendum or plebiscite election which would set them on a course impossible to get away from where tough action and choices must follow.

Call me crazy but I wonder if the fact that sLab is trailing badly in the polls has anything to do with Blair McDougall’s sudden conversion to postponing the election stance?

Sturgeon – Park independence but fire up ma election bus!

Nobody will hear McDougall or Llewellin from underneath the mountainous heap of contradictory evidence, so effortlessly produced by Wings.

Stuart Insh @ 2.07 pm

“ Was Peter Murrell meant to be in front of the enquiry again today? “
.
Parliament is in recess until 12th January .

Aye get on with it. We are a hardy bunch us. Although I feel apathy might keep more people away this time round than the pandemic. Nobody I know that is voting SNP is doing so out of any enthusiasm, only because they can’t think of any better options. People are hardly buzzing about it.

As for me, I almost don’t see a point in voting. I’m never voting for the SNP again because of thousands of reasons. I want independence so would never vote for a unionist party. The greens are to woke and I’m not a Marxist nutter so that rules out the far left parties. I genuinely don’t know if there is a point in me voting this time, although I’m happy to vote for a no hoper indy list party just so I don’t let the side down

« Mass vaccination » what are the Scots, a flock of sheep?
Can see elections being « postponed » until all have been well and truly shafted, sorry injected.
Mrs Murrell as she sees herself.

Off tangent I Know- but does anyone on this site know whether Margaret Thatcher ever said that all Scotland needed to do to gain its independence was to achieve a majority of the seats in a Scottish Election?

Or were her comments a much circulated and quoted urban myth?

If you postpone Elections or referendums because of COVID, what do you do if COVID is here to stay?

Ottomanboi, I agree with you. “Injected” is only one letter away from “infected”.

The silver bullet which will protect us as much as a ghost dance shirt against real bullets.

It might have been easier to make a list of countries that DIDN’T hold an election due to COVID.

@Breeks says:
5 January, 2021 at 3:09 pm
“If you postpone Elections or referendums because of COVID, what do you do if COVID is here to stay?”

Don’t give them ideas 🙂

That wretched creature Blair wants the elections postponed because his Tory branch office in Scotland looks set to take a hiding, as do the other anti-Scottish British nationalist branch offices of Labour and the Lib/Dems in Scotland.

AS for Sturgeon, she’ll use any excuse in the book to prolong not having to hold an indyref.

I can’t make my mind up whether the British Nationalist MSP’s are feining over the precarious position that Sturgeon’s in or not.

I suppose a slight delay a month or two, would allow other new indy parties seeking list votes to be fully prepared. Hopefully by then Sturgeon and Murrell are history.

‘Aled Gwyn Job says:
5 January, 2021 at 3:03 pm
Off tangent I Know- but does anyone on this site know whether Margaret Thatcher ever said that all Scotland needed to do to gain its independence was to achieve a majority of the seats in a Scottish Election?’

I think you are mixing up your urban myths – there were no Scottish Elections when Thatcher was in power, and the quote often used about Scotland sending a majority of nationalist MPs to Westminster, never seems to be corroborated.

Well, I hope it is postponed on the basis that the SNP would have more time to get rid of Sturgeon and bring in someone new.

For what it’s worth, I’d be willing to bet that Salmond never gives evidence at the inquiry. They’ll impose some conditions on his appearance that he won’t be able to accept and say he refused…

@newburghgowfer says:
5 January, 2021 at 4:02 pm
“If Heineken made fannies I’m sure Blair Pilsbury McDonut would be the outcome. He is the Fannies fanny !!”

Don’t you mean Carlsberg?

How can Nicola avoid being called a liar if she holds an election in May when she said her entire focus was on the pandemic?

As for indyref2, if we’re all vaccinated this year then there is nothing stopping it being held Thu 15 Sep 2022.

I believe NS should put that date in the next manifesto.

If Boris can Brexit *during* a pandemic, we can hold an indyref2 a year *after* the pandemic ended.

The odds on the SNP winning the next Holyrood Election are 1 to 33. In other words, a foregone conclusion. Even if the Murrells were to go between now and then I doubt it would substantially change the outcome. In her role as First Minister, Nicola is a prime mover in delaying that election. If she doesn’t want to delay, as stated, then the election will go ahead in May. So that leaves the Inquiry with time pressure, not a good thing. Also new party entrants of which they are a few waiting registration with the Electoral Commission will be pressured. One surprising example being Black Lives Matter (Scotland) wonder what there view is on Independence?. And there are others but not one Alex Salmond is associated with, so his comeback can be discounted. Not a good outlook if you are not a fanboy of the Murrells. It’s all on the Inquiry making incisive progress. Otherwise we face 5 more years of the gravy train, gender woo woo and being part of the UK. (No chance of the election being a Plebiscite as Nicola says computer says no)

I know someone who recently took out a mortgage and is actively hoping to be put on furlough by their SME employer.

Literally almost as thick as Ayrshire Rob – although I am guessing that lockdown loony probably works for the public sector.

The cretin clearly doesn’t work in the service sector – which is being decimated. Arse.

Increasingly you have to see this coronavirus thing as a political cover.

No one doubts that there is an outbreak of a flu related infection that preys on the elderly and the sick. No body doubts that intensive care beds are being used up. But tell me, why is it that none of the Louise Jordan – Nightingale hospitals are in use if things are so bad.

And don’t you think things get unexpectedly conveniently bad just as Brexit occurs and the economy absolutely tanks as the reality of a rotten deal and Britain’s poor economic position starts to become clear.

So again why all the bad figures now but empty emergency hospitals built specifically for the pandemic.

And if COVID is so bad why did Johnson and his government make Brexit their sole focus. And how come we now have four gunboats deployed into the Channel in a show of strength. Or what about the carrier fleet now heading off to the Far East in a show of naval strength. Not exactly the focus of a country in the middle of a supposed health crisis.

Yep, something doesn’t gel. But one thing though there are some well connected people making fortunes out of the COVID emergency.

Economic and political re-set??

Stuart @4.36pm.

Stuart thanks for the link, I see the Tory strong hold of the South-East will be the big winner in all of this with the most additional MP’s.

@ Stuart Mackay

Hmm, so political representation is to be based on latest voter registration figures for an area, rather than actual population numbers residing there.
We know that many folk living in poverty, and other precarious positions due to government policies such as austerity are more likely to move around or be disenfranchised and thus drop off the electoral roll.

Ian Brotherhood says:
5 January, 2021 at 1:45 pm
“Wouldn’t Margaret Mitchell automatically take Linda Fabiani’s place as Convener?”

I’d like that.

@ Hatuey

Aye, isn’t it nuts that so many folk are unaware of this. Which is why it’s crazy you don’t spend more time enlightening folk to that situation, instead of shunning folk that are trying to raise awareness of the power they as individuals hold.

Niue is an island in the tropical Pacific. It is a dependency of NZ inherited from the UK. Most adult Niueans are working in NZ leaving the young and the old in Niue.

Couple of years ago NZ ran with the UN Decolonisation program a plebiscite asking Niue to become independent. NZ was offering sweeteners for them to do so. Imagine.

Niue voted to remain dependent.

I note some BTL posters raising the subject of Thatcher’s widely-known assertion that a kajority of pro-independence MPs elected to Westminster would be grounds for Scotland ending the Union.

We hear, all the time, the Tories mouthing off the lie about the SNP saying 2014 was a once in a generation referendum – whereas, as we all know, that was Wee Eck’s personal opinion, which he clarified as being “a parliamentary generation – 5 to 7 years.”

The SNP MPs and MSPs whould be ordered, every time they raise the matter of independence, to make sure they quote Thatcher’s written opinion on what should happen with a majority of pro-independence Scottish MPs in Westminster.

I beleive that would quickly shut up the Tories on “once in a generation.”

Throw-in the Vow, “lead not leave” and the way Labour is less-willing than the Tories to concede certain powers to Holyrood, and the Unionists would be up shit creek sans paddle.

Sorry @Beaker, wrong Beer but he is still the Fannies fanny

I don’t recall seeing this from last year.

link to bloomberg.com

However I think the EU indicated a few weeks ago that the rest of the UK would have no decision on whether Scotland could return to the EU.

@Aled Gwyn Job

The 2 quotes below are from the intervention by Martyn Day, SNP MP for Linlithgow and East Falkrik at the House of Commons, Recorded on Hansard:
Referendum on Scottish Independence, volume 631: debated on Monday, 13 November 2017

“Is a referendum the correct method to decide on Scottish independence? If we believe in democracy, there are logically only two routes by which we can make such a decision: the parliamentary route or by public plebiscite. The debate has moved on considerably in my lifetime from the days when we took the view that having a simple majority of SNP MPs at Westminster was the route to negotiate for independence. Even Thatcher accepted that route, and her successor Major made the point that no nation could be “held irrevocably in a union against its will”.”

“If we believe in a parliamentary democracy using the system that Westminster uses—I have a lot of complaints about that and want a proportional system of representation at all elections—then we have to accept that a simple majority is a win under this democratic approach”

Please copy and paste the address below to your browser if you want to read the whole exchange. When you go back in time, it is quite interesting to see the overwhelmingly pathetic excuses used by the 3 unionist parties’ representatives at the time to stop indyref. It is the same boring excuses they use today.

Even at that point in time, with just 35 seats in Westminster, it was clear they did not have any valid excuse to stop the referendum, so if the referendum did not take place or the union did not end at the time using the second democratic route, it is simply because Sturgeon’s SNP did not want to:

link to hansard.parliament.uk

On a personal note, I think only Scotland’s MPs took part in this debate. There was an England MP as chair, but the actual speakers were only Scotland’s MPs. Doesn’t this tell us that the England MPs have absolutely no business telling us if or when we can have our referendum and any attempt by them to claim a right to do so is nothing but deception?

At least on 13 November 2017 our MPs still had a pulse and were still willing to and actively debating in Westminster about a second independence referendum, upholding our democratic mandate and telling us that there are only 2 democratic routes for independence, a referendum or a parliamentary majority that the SNP had then and continues to have to this day.

Were there any other debates on Scottish independence in Westminster ever since? If not, why not?

Where would this debate have gone if Mr Salmond was one of the SNP MPs? We will never know.

Meanwhile, what was being cooked closer to home and within the guts of the Scottish government? A relentless and disgusting smearing campaign against Mr Salmond, the only person in Scotland that got us anywhere near a referendum on independence and possibly the only one with the balls to use the other democratic route if necessary.

3 days before that debate on Scotland’s indyref, on 10th November 2017, Nicola Sturgeon was slapping Mr Salmond (metaphorically speaking) in the press because of his choice of broadcaster for his new programme. Incidentally, Mundell also mentioned sarcastically Mr Salmond’s RT programme during the debate.

By 16 November 2017, just 3 days after that debate on Scotland’s independence by our MPs, the bogus complaints procedure aiming to catch in the net “a former minister” was being sent to the UK Cabinet Office by email for “revision”.

By 20th and 21st November, before the procedure was even given the green light, Somers was already meeting with one of the complainants

It is like two parallel worlds diverging from each other isn’t it? Like two wheels spinning in different directions and counteracting each other.

Where the MPs paying just lip service in that debate or they had not a clue what was going on in the guts of the Scottish government at the time?

Did the rogue actions of the Scottish government stall all debate on independence? If so, why? Why did the SNP MPs and rest of MSPs allowed the actions of a rogue MSP and her civil servant nodding donkeys to change completely Scotland’s democratic direction of travel and the aim of Scotland’s legitimate representatives in Westminster?

What was the real reason that moved Sturgeon and Evans to make the new complaints procedure extensive to former ministers when there was not even one for former civil servants?

@ Kate 5.35pm yes Kate I remember seeing that exact quote within the last few days on twatter

Excellent article Rev Stu, Scotland’s only true investigative journalist.

Does House Jock McDougall still play the Tuba???

Or did somebody ram it up his Arse???

The Labour Party is an irrelevance in Scotland.

A bit like the LibDens and Greens.

The Tory Party is the only Party of opposition in Scotland.

And only because of the diehard bluenoses in Scotland and because of places like Moray, where the southern MANKY MOB have moved in to.

@ Hatuey

You have been fairly consistent btl in your attempts to steer folk away from, or have been dismissive of folk, that try to promote or highlight Scot’s sovereignty or cultural matters in discussions.
If you have spent any serious amount of time campaigning with the wider public to promote Scotland returning to a status of self-governance you would know that you need a range of topics and angles to converse with the diverse range of punters that reside in Scotland.
Why are you trying to reduce, or diminish in importance, the number of potential aspects activists could utilise?

Dan @5:03pm

It’s straight out of the American playbook. It ensures the poor and ethnic minorities that are the most disadvantaged. It is also why you hear so much on the news about voter registration drives whenever there is a presidential election in the USA.

link to en.wikipedia.org

The term gerrymandering is named after American politician Elbridge Gerry (pronounced with a hard “g”; “Gherry”, Vice President of the United States at the time of his death, who, as Governor of Massachusetts in 1812, signed a bill that created a partisan district in the Boston area that was compared to the shape of a mythological salamander. The term has negative connotations and gerrymandering is almost always considered a corruption of the democratic process. The resulting district is known as a gerrymander (/?d??ri?mænd?r, ???ri-/). The word is also a verb for the process.

Despicable and entirely predictable.

Expect the idea that we cannot have a May election while in a pandemic to gain traction among Unionist politicians.
The US elected a new president in November,and other countries have had general elections.
Already the red and blue Tories are uniting against Scottish democracy.
This is sheer desperation and make no mistake the MSM will join in to support it.
Better together never really disbanded.
Tony Blair is blaming Scottish voters for not electing a strong enough opposition to the SNP. Who the hell goes to the polls to elect an opposition?
Are we a bloody colony or what.

Here’s hoping all Scotland’s 59 Commons seats are abolished before the next Westminster GE.

Kapelmeister , by the next GE there will be 57 Scottish seats.

Why are people on here still questioning the basis of Independence based on the majority of Scottish seats as the trigger point?

For the part of the 20th century that witnessed the inception of universal sufferage and the creation of the SNP, the only stage for Scottish Sovereignty to be asserted was Westminster. Historically that’s where our Sovereignty was delivered and supposedly represented and protected by our MPs from 1707 onwards.

The reality was that those MPs for the period up until 2015 only represented their bosses in the hegemony of English national parties..red, blue and yellow unionists. The sole objective of the SNP was to be elected to Westminster and when in a majority, to petition the dissolution of the U.K. That objective and that right was recognised and respected by the English body politic until the SNP gave the ba’ away.

Unfortunately, somewhere along the line, the SNP dropped this condition for asserting Sovereignty and AS came up with the toxic Indyref idea, a failure that defined us as colonial possessions of England. BTW the Claim of Right has been ‘debated’ in Parliament twice in the last few years and basically ignored. Debates have been hollow shams engineered by the SNP to virtue signal to its loyalists. The votes absent for or against precisely because it had no constitutional muscle, unlike the Act/Treaties of Union, and has been sidelined by the IndyRef obsfucation.

Unfortunately, the SNP internally started to undermine their own raison d’etre: falling for the total distraction of Holyrood as the ‘return’ of the Scottish Parliament was a fiction and a dangerous invitation to the English to undermine further the point of our MPs duty in Westminster.

Let’s be clear: As Burns said ( not Gove)’facts are chiels that winna ding’..Westminster is sovereign over all the devolved assemblies and it is the crucible where our severance of the accursed Union must be acted out. Section 30s and plebiscite blah blahs are doomed to utter failure and humiliation. Our MPs have the Sovereign right and duty to strike the blow that severs the chains of English supremacy over us now!

@Muscleguy 5.15pm

I was pleased to see your post re Niue because I’ve been trying to remember the name of that island for ages.

The reason is that as far as I remember New Zealand offers the people there independence on a regular basis, every four to six years or so. And as you note they say ‘no thanks’, it has nothing of value to NZ and is an ongoing expense on the public purse.

If they had oil or any other valueable commodity we can be sure things would be very different.

Ah blame the MANKY MOB, pure and simple.

The MANKY MOB reside in the MANKY LANDS to the south of the Scottish border and they do actually exist.

One of their biggest exports is a rather disgusting human being called MANKY JAIKIT.

He’s a regular attendee at all Yes Rallies.

His message to the people of Scotland is to remain a Colony and subservient to MANKY LAND for ever more.

Blessed be Google, blessed be the most sacred Vaccine of the Big Pharma!
link to spiked-online.com
Come unto us all you who fear.
link to whatwouldthefoundersthink.com

Dan, culture is an entirely different subject and I don’t know what it is if people like you can’t define it. So, here’s your chance; explain to me what it is in cultural terms that both unifies and distinguishes everybody (or at least a large majority of the people) in Scotland.

Is it food? A love of a certain type of music? Religion or faith? Maybe we have certain habits or behavioural traits. Maybe you think we are saintly. God’s chosen people? Over to you.

I’m not trying to diminish anything. No matter what comes out of any debate about Scottish history, culture, and sovereignty (here, in the courts, or anywhere else), we are incarcerated in the British Union with very few options for escape.

Any route we find to independence will depend on overcoming political and constitutional barriers that exist in the here and now, not in the distant past or the minds of half-cut romantics, and that’s where we need to focus.

If you reduce the argument to some tartan-clad pseudo-socialist pipe dream, you lose the argument.

“This shift in policy was not welcomed by more fundamentalist nationalists. To them, the word ‘referendum’ generally meant a Unionist trap, the sort used to thwart Scotland’s constitutional ambitions rather than advance them.”

That’s very interesting Mia. I have always considered the referendum route to be a Unionist trap for the reasons you explain: “It should have become obvious in 2014 that unless that referendum can be completely detached from interference by the British state and its institutions, it is a lost cause and is indeed a Unionist trap.”

And if we extrapolate the argument further, then asking for a Section 30 order is simply allowing the Unionists to set the trap for us!

@ Hatuey

Ach, get awa’ wi yer deflecting to avoid answering my question as to why you would try to reduce the stock and value of potential campaigning aspects Indy activists can utilise to help enlighten the broad spectrum of views held by our fellow Scots.
We are all unique individuals and we don’t exist in isolation, so we have to have the ability to listen and be receptive to where other people are at in the scheme of things. Because of this, being able to communicate and relate to folk on an array of subject matters is very useful when in campaigning mode and more likely to reap some rewards.
When you knock on hundreds of stranger’s door when canvassing, or some random comes up to you when you’re on a street stall, you have no idea who they are or what views they hold, so being equipped to deal with a vast range of potential conversational subjects is required, and believe it or not the stuff you call “nuts” do actually have value sometimes.
You said 95% don’t care for this sort of stuff, so bloody what, we don’t need to convince 95%, we work on the ones who we can bring over to our side using whatever ways we can.

Re. Culture The word definitely exists because it is in the bloody dictionary and a quick google will throw up the following couple of meanings for it.

the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively.

the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.

If you are unable or simply unwilling to consider that Scotland has its own unique traits that fit in to those definitions then I can’t help you, and I have no interest in getting drawn into a tit for tat shitfest over it.

Willie @4:40

Absolutely spot on. This has been the case all along. The Deep State was using the manufactured pandemic to inject us with a fake vaccine called Covid 19. This actually stands for
COVert
IDentification
for
Artificial
Intelligence
1 referring to A
9 referring to I
This vaccine included a nanobot chip which could be read by scanners and upload/download your biometric and other info to their computers. It was the ultimate means of control.

This plan has been thwarted by the US Military and 4,10,20 otherwise known as DJT Donald John Trump.
The lockdown a are to ensure everyone stays home and safe whilst they arrest the bad guys.

NB the use of numbers to replace letters is called Gematria and is Masonic, ask one if you don’t believe me, or use Google.

You will see on 6th Jan evidence being laid before the US Congress which will blow your mind and most of the other BTL commenters.

A good start would be to check out pedoempire.org and DJTs lawyer Lin Woods’ tweets @LlinWood.
He states that rape and murder of children was used by the CIA FBI MOSSAD MI6 and Epstein to advance their agendas.

The vast majority of the bad guys have been arrested and executed. The navy in the Channel is to catch the runners.

“Clowns to the left of me
Joker’s to the right
I’m stuck in the middle with the Pinball Wizards”?

FFS bring that Cameron guy back and hunt Skippy!

The ‘roo has pitched up in Munguin-land, too.

Can you give us a clue what 4,10,20 is like?

Is it a secret code or wit?

The despicable actions and behavior of rotten Scot Gov/SNP hierarchy is seriously challenging my perception of ‘Scotland’s culture’ (a culture of rotten institutions; duplicitous, conspiring and colluding state officials; reckless & dangerous wacko policies/Rules/Laws, etc ?), however, Scotland to me, is the place I best feel, recognise and trust as my home, dependable friend, and most viable future…

Or even “absurdly insane”?

Perth cooncil elections recently held after a couple of deaths of serving councillors show that not only can you hold elections during covid19 but that you can also hold these elections in Scotland.

Precedent already set for elections in Scotland during covid19 🙂

Dan: “If you are unable or simply unwilling to consider that Scotland has its own unique traits“

I asked you to tell me what they were. You can’t give one example. You’re the one chapping on doors with this pitch, not me.

For me it’s enough to say the thing that distinguishes us is the fact that we are Scottish, which is a matter of definition; I don’t know why that isn’t enough for you and others.

My advice is to avoid this sort of subject entirely if you’re out canvassing. It’s a can of worms and it’s not like we are short of important and meaningful things to talk about.

I’m worried about the May election being mainly by
Postal votes which we already know will be corrupted
by every intelligence and military group at Westminster’s
disposal.

Ruth can again open the ballot boxes before the count just to ensure
she put all the X’s in the right box.

“And if we extrapolate the argument further, then asking for a Section 30 order is simply allowing the Unionists to set the trap for us!”

I agree. I must admit that I have always seen the “requirement” for a S30 that Sturgeon is so adamant to abide by as a totally unnecessary and self-defeating manoeuvre that negates our principle of popular sovereignty, our claim of right and the premise this is a union. It is at all practical effects the same as demoting Scotland to the status of England’s colony and handing to England’s government for free a right to veto that they never had in the first place.

If my memory does not fail, I read a while back a BBC article where it said that Mr Salmond’s did not request an S30. He simply announced the referendum and then England politicians almost fell over themselves to hand over to him the S30 “to avoid legal complications” because they were not sure at the time if consent from Westminster was required or not. Mr Salmond simply accepted it.

I also read a while back the paper that pretended to “justify” at the time the requirement for a S30 and I was most unconvinced.It seemed to be more a collection of unionist lawyers’ opinions than a balance document exploring both possibilities.

Looking retrospectively, maybe they knew there was not a chance in hell they would allow Mr Salmond win that referendum so in reality perhaps they were setting the trap for the next one, because surely another one would come as they knew their “interventions” would only serve to stall independence and therefore the question would not be settled.

I wonder if they thought creating such “requirement” for an S30 would make the SNP under the right leader innocuous now that that the gradualist faction of the SNP had shot themselves in both feet by setting the precedent for a referendum as the only “standard” road to independence.

Sturgeon has gone a step forward in denying Scotland its right to self determination by deciding on her own accord that both restrictions (the S30 + pre indy referendum) are not only “the” gold standard but the only “legal” route when it is just one option.

Mr Salmond had a very good reason to change the policy at the time to a referendum and is that prior to that, they never managed to reach anywhere near 20 MPs. Clearly that policy worked as they got a majority in Holyrood in 2011 and then 56 MPs in 2015. But 2015 is the time you would think a shrewd political operator/strategist would revert the policy back to a majority of MPs/MSPs as it was crystal clear at the time that the combination of a referendum that could be tampered with by the English establishment and a S30 acting as a gatekeeper would be the last resource unionist hand break to Scotland’s self-determination after it came so darn close in 2014. It seems Nicola Sturgeon has been doing the dirty work of holding that hand brake on behalf of the British state.

Alf: “ it is to a large degree our national culture that is driving Scots to seek independence”

I could just as easily argue that national culture is holding Scotland back. If I did, someone might legitimately expect me to explain what I meant and provide examples. And that’s all I’m asking you to do.

How do you explain “Scottish” culture?

Well having travelled all around the world and visited many countries, I have always been asked about Scotland.

People ask me about Burns The Highlands.Skye, The Glaxgow Boys, Loch Lomand, Nessie ,Highland games,Kilts.

I enjoy trave!,but I love coming home, because it is exactly that. A comfirting familiarity with all things that I take for granted and foreigners want to eagerly want know about.

In Japan I was asked about Prince Charlie and Culloden. I was asked if all McDonald’s were the same family.

Culture is something we take for granted. Our daily lives.

I stood marvelling at the Colliseum whilst ordinary Roman citizens never paid it one bit of attention.

Scotland has great and unique culture. We sometimes just don’t see it.

Alf Baird says: at 5:40 pm

Oh good post and details and quotes are worth keeping. Thank you.

@ Lochside

‘…the Claim of Right has been ‘debated’ in Parliament twice in the last few years and basically ignored. Debates have been hollow shams engineered by the SNP to virtue signal to its loyalists. The votes absent for or against precisely because it had no constitutional muscle’

Entirely true and unfortunate.

@ Stuart MacKay

‘Scots, Geordies, Poles and Norwegians all have shared culture. It’s not so much where you stand but what you see from where you’re standing.

I hope that was suitably vague and hand-wavy.’

I found that rather deep myself, of course I might be notoriously shallow 🙂

Derek says:
5 January, 2021 at 9:22 pm

d d d d d d d d d d D

There it goes! …and there’s more of them!

Damn it! It’s cloned d d d itself!

Clyde is desperate to create an anti English theme and so tarnish the Yessers good name.

He is as obvious as the clueless anti vaxers trying similar tainting of the site.

Independence is normal and it is good that normal people on this site think so too.

I have no axe to grind on soccer but methinks NS is doing everything she can to deflect public attention at a dangerous time for her and is stirring the pot on Celtic’s training trip to Dubai. The facts are no laws were infringed, the players are less likely to be infected there than back home, and they are not mixing any more than they would be in their training sessions in Glasgow.

Come on Sturgeon, spare us the deflection, and concentrate on cutting out the lies, corruption and obfuscation in your own party. You could make a start by complying with the Salmond enquiry and putting the aspirations of our country above your own.

Famous15

Another Sturgeonista who refuses to critisize Sturgeon in any way.

I personally think she has moved up here from the MANKY LANDS and prefers Sturgeon’s approach to indyRef2, which is that it will never happen

Go on Famous15, say just one bad word about Sturgeon, just one.

Independence is normal,,,you obviously are not.

Famous15

What has been your contribution to today’s debate, to go after another poster?

Why?

What did anyone learn from your post?

Go away and come back when you have some meaningful contribution to make.

Canada – depends.

Canada has been autonomous and self governing since confederation in 1867.

Technically, total independence bar queenie never occurred until the repatriation of the Canadian constitution in 1982.

Mia, I don’t disagree with anything you say at 11:17 pm. However, I think the premise is much simpler. Simply by asking you are giving tacit legitimacy to the authority being asked.

Westminster has no right or legitimacy to deny us self-determination. Nicola Sturgeon by asking gives them that right.

But it comes down to the same thing in the end which you summarise succinctly:

“It seems Nicola Sturgeon has been doing the dirty work of holding that hand brake on behalf of the British state.”

I think the pace of Canadian constitutional change would scare a lot of people in Scotland, particularly politicians. We should be grateful Scotgov have adopted a long term strategy. In 125 years The SNP will have a minimum of 50 mandates, plus with advances in cryogenics, and the religious like devotion so many have to the dear leader, The SNP can keep their “best asset” as leader until plan A comes to fruition.

It’s a well known fact that no country with 50 democratic mandates has ever been refused a diamond standard, gold plated, sec 30 order from Westminster. It’s also a well known fact that none of the dozens of
countries that gained independence from The UK were so cravenly servile to request even 1 section 30 order, but we are where we are.

Hatuey says:
6 January, 2021 at 1:37 am
Thanks, Davie. Would or could you argue that Canada lacks independence today?

Of course not. Canada has total political independence and every year that goes by the relationship with the UK grows weaker.
Pretty much relegated to ceremony now.

I always get a good chuckle at the Brexit delusion of reengaging with the likes of Canada and Australia. Especially the idea of a Wasp version of freedom of movement.
Never in a million years.

If you are Lesely Evans + co, look away now.

Read the two opening descriptions, and understand how governing in Scotland really works.

link to en.m.wikipedia.org

link to en.m.wikipedia.org

I was looking into who pulls the levers in Marine Scotland, now we’re playing silly buggers over Rockall, for the Imperial masters.

Sorry, i should have put these two first. Again, you don’t have to read past the overview to work it out.

Kapos for Westmidden!

link to en.m.wikipedia.org.

link to en.m.wikipedia.org.

.
Hi Stu.,

The intemperate ad hominem attack by George Rutherford upon Andy Ellis just made me realise why…

Each Wings BTL thread is now 100% more interesting and flows with ideas and exchanges focussing on the important matters to come. Such as the future of the SNP; getting the ScotGov focus returned to IndyRef2. Plus the hopeful return of Alex Salmond to frontline Scottish politics.

Now, since uber-troll has gone back to Norway, we have far more positive threads and mostly respectful, with courteous discourse amongst the Wings Over Scotland BTL Brigade.

Stuart I realise now, how much you laboured about excommunicating Cameron Brodie.

Some of us have a limited time left in this life and I for one am passionate about seeing
Scottish Independence before I follow Sean Connery out of the door.

As a result, Cameron Brodie really upset me because I took precious hours to read the articles in his links. Better I had spent that time with my grandkids growing up.

It eventually became apparent that most of Cameron’s links were OFF-toic irrelevance. Stu., I just traced back to when you posted CBB’s P45 eviction notice, and was struck by the significant number of BTL comments that followed that supported you. So many WOS contributors who had tried to reason with Brodie got abused by him. Many BTL contrbers thanked you on sending Cameron B Brodie on his way.

Andy Ellis is right. There is a sad want about the wee guy. His seeking attention, or recognition for the legal degree he didn’t get. Latterly I felt sorry for him.

What I do know is the 25% of each thread Cameron was spamming got worse. When he started copying and pasted large screeds of obscure feckless text in ADDITION to the irrelevat off-topic life-wasting links to nowhere, the distractive off-topic guff got worse.

An analogy that comes to mind is walking barefoot on a sunny beach. The sand underfoot can be a warm pleasure. Same with reading different and genuinely informative BTL debates.

Then introduce a pack of incontinent dogs crapping all over that beach. Scrolling pasts a beach littered with CBB turds sounds like a Billy Connolly anecdote. But these craps of wisdom splattered all over BTL make the place a distracting minefield.

George Rutherford aka Cam2 or CamApologist is nostalgic for: The legal thesis of wart-hogs, their marriage contract and contextual mating habits”.

George Rutherford, perhaps you can summarise the top 3 ON TOPIC links out of 3,876 posts CamB spammed (in 140 characters or less) which advanced the cause of Scottish Independence?

I believe Stuart gave you/your friend many chances to stop spamming. The overtures pleading with Brodie to remain ON TOPIC were thrown back into the face of the site owner and all those who tried to reason with CBB.

Stuart, thank you for letting go of someone who pretended to help but was, I believe, a very disruptive troll.

Surely gaining Scottish Independence and staying on THAT topic is far more important than the OFF-topic narcissism of Cameron Brodie? For that matter, better we concentrate on Nicola Sturgeon and her focus on saving England from itself over Brexit and silencing freedom of speech with the useful idiot, Humza Patsy and his Orwellian nuking of free speech?

‘…the Claim of Right has been ‘debated’ in Parliament twice in the last few years and basically ignored….

Westminster cannot alter Scotland’s Claim of Right, just as Westminster cannot alter Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution, and furthermore, Westminster cannot alter one word in the Treaty of Union without the explicit agreement of both signatories. There is no debate, because there is nothing debatable about it.

Westminster doesn’t waste it’s time on debates it would lose, but instead wields power by creating ambiguous and commonly unwritten conventions and workarounds, and studiously avoiding these conventions being tested against awkward Constitutional realities. It is no accident that so many of these ‘conventions’ aren’t written down.

Scotland’s greatest weakness throughout history has been the success of English Colonialism at eroding Scotland’s self confidence and muddying the water over Scotland’s sovereignty. In particular, they try to anglicise the concept of Scotland’s popular Sovereignty to make it compatible with the English divine sovereignty of their Monarch. The two sovereignties are thoroughly incompatible, and cannot be combined as one, or even described as one.

UK Sovereignty only exists via a Convention of Parliamentary Sovereignty, which presumes that Scotland’s Sovereignty will agree to go along with the will of the Westminster Parliament. Essentially, the Convention works by saying the will of Westminster will make the decision, and we’ll get around the obstacle of Scotland’s sovereignty by never ever asking it to be approved, but Scotland’s mutual consent is ‘presumed’.

That is why the UK traditionally loaths government by referendum, because it creates a massive problem for the UK’s Convention of Parliamentary Sovereignty if the Sovereign Nation of Scotland has actually says no to thing… as Scotland said no to Brexit. It runs totally contrary to the spirit of Sovereignty by convention, and mutual consent, when clearly, there is no consensus.

People think I’m a rocket for saying so, but I’m telling you again regardless, Scotland should properly be impeaching the Scottish ‘Government’ for it’s lamentable Constitutional illiteracy, and abject failure to derail Scotland’s Brexit using the Scottish Constitution and popular sovereignty of the people. They have singularly failed to deploy the control mechanisms which can and have constrained the colonial aspirations of Westminster for three centuries.

Under Sturgeons SNP, the tendrils of Westminster’s Colonial aspirations have been given free access to Scotland’s private defences, and an odious and dangerous precedent set whereby the sovereign will of the Scottish people can be vetoed by Westminster.

It is not the success of Westminster that Scotland was Brexited, but the abject FAILURE of a shitty Scottish Government which wasn’t on top of its brief constitutionally, and allowed itself to be bushwhacked and Scotland drummed out of Europe.

Personally, I am INCREDULOUS that any Scottish Government could be so reckless and incompetent with Scotland’s Constitutional strength, and the reason for that reckless incompetence stinks more strongly of corruption and treachery than even the Alex Salmond stitch up, and the infiltration of the Wokerratti.

What makes this treachery worse is that unlike the Salmond Stitch up or Invasion of the Wokist Bodysnatchers, the colonial subjugation of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty has got under the wire without one single constitutional challenge or protest.

I’m telling you people of Scotland, the current “Scottish Government” should be impeached and hung out to dry for their complicity with Scotland’s unconstitutional subjugation.

Scotland needs it’s own Legislature / Parliament established from scratch which recognises NO Constitutional rights over Scotland except those of Scotland’s own sovereign Constitution. Sturgeon, her hokey wee cabal, and indeed the whole SNP should be too embarrassed to show their faces in Scotland because their cowardice and failure to defend Scotland is right up there beside the Scottish Lords / Parcel O’ Rogues who sold out Scotland in 1707. At least the 1707 Rogues had the excuse of being bribed. The 2020 Rogues were just inept and gullible.

Can’t we just ‘fix’ Holyrood and ‘undo’ this unconstitutional impropriety? – Placebo. What needs ‘fixed’ is the false perception amongst the Scot’s people that their sovereignty has been removed when it hasn’t, and what needs restored is the certain belief that it’s the people of Scotland who have the last word / casting vote in what Scotland says and does, and you can take your scrawny Section 30 Agreement, indeed you can take your whole scabby Scotland Act, and shove it up your arse. The people of Scotland are sovereign.

Fix the psyche of our damaged and abused Nation, and reacquaint ourselves with our masterful sovereign Constitution, and the trappings of this perfidious and insatiably greedy Union will fall apart. Scotland’s disgrace will be that we took 300 years to do it.

SNP? 70 years of progress destroyed by one tenure of Nicola Sturgeon.

If you’re trying to defend Scotland’s Constitution, you MUST address the 1707 Treaty of Union as an International Agreement, and fight for your rights as a Nation. If you merely contest it under domestic UK Laws, you are fighting as a Region, not a Nation, and you have allowed yourself to be a tame and timid house-jock.

Westminster rules us because Scotland is drenched in a malignant fog, like an anaesthetising miasma, that paralyses our defences like an animal that’s been drugged to keep it docile, and leaves us confused, bewildered and robbed of our self confidence. I’m sorry folks, but a timid wee Holyrood quoting Westminster’s rule book like a gospel is a component of that suppression.

We don’t need to wait for a Holyrood Inquiry to be rid of this farcical and inept “Scottish Government”, but please, please, please, when we mobilise ourselves as a nation, can we be much more rigorous when choosing who we put in charge?

Liz g

You’re a wee Ginger Dugger

How dare you step foot inside Wings, the site that is fighting against Sturgeon and her weirdo administration.

Get back to the Dug where you belong.

You are a stranger in these parts hen.

Now trot off and don’t come back.

No Sturgeonistas allowed.

Clyde aka Ronald Fraser.
I think it’s you who should trot off,,,all you do is slag England and anything English..what language do you speak?.

Piers Morgan telling us the useless Oxford vaccine is going to save the world.

What a wanker.

The english Oxford vaccine is useless.

The World Health Organization said yesterday the the Pfizer and Oxford vaccines should be g

Second Jab,,,,nit second hand

LOL…Your busy this morning..

The oxford vaccine is just as good as the Pfizer.

@ Al-Stuart

Well said. Here’s hoping the “powers that be” are listening. I noticed Spameron was trying to infect Grouse Beater’s blog too: these roasters just can’t help themselves. It’s like whack a mole of unthinking zoomers.

Nary an original thought or coherent argument between them.

@Alf Baird

Enjoying reading your thoughts on culture.

What’s your take on the fact that the third most spoken language in Scotland has gone from being Gaelic to Polish in next to no time? In fact, according to the 2011 census, twice as many Scots naturally speak Polish at home as naturally speak Gaelic.

link to scotlandscensus.gov.uk

I am always amused on my (currently forbidden) stravaigs into The Highlands to see the bi-lingual road signs in English and Gaelic. If I were a Polish speaker and taxpayer I would not find it so funny.

How does this cultural shift, sanctioned and encouraged by the Holyrood establishment, fit into your colonial worldview? Have you been unlucky enough to lose your job lately? Are you aware that some, if not all, interview places for employment by agencies of the Scottish state are reserved for what is euphemistically described as “new Scots”?

IMO your belief that the assault on Scottish culture comes only from south of the border is mistaken.