The History Boys
Posted on
May 21, 2016 by
Chris Cairns
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A tall tale
Wee Books
Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Followed by a quick chorus of “Onward christen solders”.
The Dishonourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers.
This is a shocking image of Scotland to present on the international stage.
Did 64% actually vote to allow women in to the club?
And if so just what kind of percentage was required to pass the motion?
Is it like the vote for a Scots parliament in the 70’s where the dead and those who didn’t bother their bahoochies to vote were counted as opposed, as someone else suggested?
I say! Spiffing! Yoiks tally-ho! Jolly hockling sticks!
Dinosaurs – soon to be extinct!
Some years back I and a bunch of guys were invited to a private golf club in Edinburgh for a drink by a friend. He was one of those people for whom golf was part and parcel of his job: talk business, staff problems, and promotion. Wives and girlfriends came with us. At the bar I was aware the women had disappeared. “Not allowed at the bar” I was told – they have their own room to sit and chat.
Sadly, it’s the same in Los Angeles. And the reason? Full of right-wing businessmen doing deals.
I find the game pointless and boring. For a start, all those expensive clubs to buy over and above annual club membership. You’re told it’s a great way to relax, meet friends, and socialise while gaining exercise. Lost count of men who had heart attacks and died playing golf. They get screaming competitive – they have to win, the veins stand out on their necks, faces red with exertion, hating you for being a lucky amateur. Yeah – great game.
Here’s more aberrant behaviour: link to wp.me
Golf course: a green desert created on common land stolen from the common people.
I understand a two thirds majority is needed, so 67%.
Whit? Whit ? Another perspective
I wouldn’t let a woman drive my car, well, they get in, they move the seat, change the mirror, put shopping on the back set and make crumbs, the seat belt always ends up twisted, and you end up with those little marks on the back bumper where they reversed into “*^*EVRYTHING^&*% and then crime of all crimes a furry animal appears at the back window along with Cheesy Wotsits from somebody’s kids
These men are correct and should build a fence completely around the entire golf course with dense hedging so that people can’t see in, then over time admission could be charged to look at them, MEN the way it used to be, Chinese and Japanese tourists would flock to see it, Americans would offer huge sums of money to join
There’s an opportunity in this folks, we sell the Loch Ness Monster why not this, I defo think it’s a winner
Anyway I have to put up new curtains today because my wife says we need them and she’s working hard to make the house nice for ME and the colour scheme needed changing because I must be getting fed up looking at the colour change we had when I decorated the house THREE MONTHS AGO!!
I’m embracing equality, honest, because if I don’t I know I’ll be screamed at until I do, and it’s what I want and good for me……She says
Grouse Beater says:
21 May, 2016 at 8:04 am
Some years back I and a bunch of guys were invited to a private golf club in Edinburgh for a drink by a friend. He was one of those people for whom golf was part and parcel of his job: talk business, staff problems, and promotion. Wives and girlfriends came with us. At the bar I was aware the women had disappeared. “Not allowed at the bar” I was told – they have their own room to sit and chat.
Sadly, it’s the same in Los Angeles. And the reason? Full of right-wing businessmen doing deals.
I find the game pointless and boring. For a start, all those expensive clubs to buy over and above annual club membership. You’re told it’s a great way to relax, meet friends, and socialise while gaining exercise. Lost count of men who had heart attacks and died playing golf. They get screaming competitive – they have to win, the veins stand out on their necks, faces red with exertion, hating you for being a lucky amateur. Yeah – great game.
………..
You started off so well Grousebeater but the second part of your point is way below Par! And, is not something in over 40 years of playing the game (badly) I have ever encountered.
Happy to say I don’t goff. I bizarrely inherited three sets of goff bats and was more than happy to give them to my brother, who also does not goff (but pretends that he does).
Dorothy,
Yes, on a 95% turnout, the vote failed by 16 votes.
Democracy, huh?
That must be the tactical voters wi’ the big hooses that voted for that Labour guy, whose name I forget, in Embra.
There is an emergency meeting called to discuss the implications of the decision and the backlash since the result was declared (June) I am hearing.
🙂
BBC shortbread says.
50% vote for women membership. It needs a 2/3 – 66% majority. A loss of funding decision.
A bit like the Indy Ref. It needs a small swing to get the necessary majority. The rules were not kept. Purdah was broken and there was illegal funding from elsewhere. It should be annulled. The level playing field was not equal,and unfair. The ground rules were broken with lies and misinformation and promises not honoured.
The Tory 2nd rate rejects. White, wealthy, middle class males. With no awareness of equality or fairness and do not play the game. The do not care. Many have 2nd jobs or funding from elsewhere. Institutions or corporate associations funded by public money controlled by the Scottish Gov. Voters are aware of the corruption in Unionist/Green Parties and the corrupt voting system. Sabotage and electoral fraud of misinformation. Electoral beware.
I went to my local publicly-funded swimming pool on Wednesday evening, imagine my surprise when I couldn’t gain access because I was male
[…] Source: Wings Over Scotland The History Boys […]
The Muirfield saga is reminiscent of the referendum. There are a lot of folk in the I’m alright Jack camp who are terrified of change. They don’t want change and will do everything they can to resist it.
We lost the referendum because we failed to overcome the fear of change. The No camp managed to reinforce folk’s fears sufficiently to prevent them voting for a bright new future.
Hopefully Muirfield will change it’s mind in due course. Hopefully Scotland will too.
Dorothy Devine, I understand that the club’s constitution stipulated that such a change required the approval of two thirds of the members. That’s not entirely unusual. In business, a significant constitutional change generally requires approval of 75% of the shareholding.
I would expect that the requirement would have been for two thirds of the overall membership rather than two thirds of the turnout so (if you prefer to put it that way) they counted abstainers as being against. The reason it was such a problem in 1979 is because the rule was introduced very late in the day.
Whoa! Haud oan a meenit!
I feel perhaps the PC brigade have totally hijacked this wee argument, for their own ends.
As I understand it, the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers, the club which owns and operates Muirfield is a PRIVATE club: their club and grounds, their rules.
I cannot say they are correct in this, but, they have, in this country, freedom of choice, if they want to continue to exclude women from membership, of their club, that is their right. Just because we disagree with them, we cannot and do not have the right to make them change their decision.
The R&A management has decided Muirfield will not be allowed to host the Open until women are admitted, fair enough. However, I do not see this decision gratly bothering the HCEG.
Hosting the Open greatly inconveniences the host club’s membership. Sure, it is an honour, but, an honour which means, for lengthy periods both before and after that single week in July when their club is the focus of world golf, the club members’ matches are disrupted – while the course is perhaps realigned, maintenance and course upgrading is carried out, and the infrastructure of temporary stands, scoreboards, tented villages and media power lines are laid down, then taken away again.
Some, perhaps many of the Muirfield members might actually enjoy not having this disruption in their lives once a decade or so. Also, the HCEG is one of Scotland’s most-elite organisations. We understand it is jam-packed with the cream of Edinburgh and Scotland’s legal and financial elite. They closet themselves behind the high hedges of Muirfield, they don’t mix with the proletariat too often, they will probably enjoy the peace.
As an aside to this, Troon GC, which will host the 2016 Open, is also a men-only club. The fly in the ointment here is, over the years, Troon and Troon Ladies have reached an accommodation, which, were they to be forced to change it to an all-in, one-club system, would greatly inconvenience their membership, in particular the Ladies club.
One past captain of Troon summed-up the problem nicely to me. He said: “The Ladies are happy with the status quo, as are we. In addition, were the two clubs to merge, it would mean the Ladies would have to pay an awful lot more each year in membership and green fees – and the Ladies have made it clear, they do not want to do this. Our system works, and has worked for years, so, why change it”.
If it aint broke, why fix it?
As regards Muirfield going off the Open rota: who will this hurt? There are more-important matters which need fixing in Scotland, long before we get round to telling a bunch of male golfers how to run their sporting lives.
By the way, another good cartoon Chris. Are you a Muirfield member? Your caption seemed to me to sum-up the attitudes of the typical HCEG member. Remember, most of these guys – The Academy/Fettes/Merchiston/Heriot’s/Stew-Mel/Watsons, then Oxbridge, perhaps the Forces, Law and Finance – are almost-certainly UKOK Tory voters.
I used to love playing golf and going on days out round different courses. Don’t slag the game off because of these Neanderthals. It’s a game anyone can try and you don’t need to be a member of a posh club just wish there were more municipal courses.
Most women are register as safer drivers who keep their surroundings and car interior immaculate. Along with the make up and dress sense. They even mow the green. . They are often the main careers for their absent partners, even keeping the surfaces ironed while they wander about the green. Members spending a larger proportion of their income on alcoholic refreshment, while holding the bar up and the irons down. Who cares about the wee wimmin representation? Not the unequal Greens. All talk and no action. Reneged again.
I think women should just not go there either to play golf or work in any capacity – leave them to it and let the dinosaurs just die out and become extinct.
The spirit of the 1979 Referendum lives on at Muirfield.
Listened to Radio 4 this morning and the spirit of the 2014 Referendum lives on too, this time at the Treasury. We need a new Euro Referendum Bingo Card. It was plummeting house prices this morning although that would not be a bad thing for those trying to get a hoose.
Is Troon not getting the Open because of Trump?
Golf is big business in Scotland. Tourism employment etc. It can be an exciting sport. The Ryder Cup etc. Healthy pursuit in all weathers. Rambling with a stick. Less loneliness. Keeps the wheels turning.
I wonder what percentage of the members were NO voters?
Chris
The line “…and retake Sudan” was brilliant. It sums up the BritScot.
Golf is a great game. It’s a shame that sometimes the people who run it endeavour to sour it.
Greens can do their bit for gender equality by forcing list MSPs to resign until the first female is appointed to parliament.
The Herald never gives up now claiming Chinese trade deal means giant PFI type deals across Scotland.
link to archive.is
The English Head of State complained about a misleading headline to the press regulators and got a swift decision with a half hearted retraction from The Sun.
Wonder if same criteria would apply to Scotland’s head of state?
GRASS-HOLES!!
Socrates MacSporran@8:59
…and what happens when a private club decides on a “whites only” policy? The lines between home / private clubs and general society can be quite blurred. I have the right to choose who enters my home…can/should I be able to refuse entry to a meter reader or other official because of some bias I hold?
These clubs represent an elite who have influence. If they reinforce their 19th century views in private and share that stand then it will carry over into society. A bigot in a private club will be a bigot in public life.
People seek membership of these clubs to gain influence via contacts. This is not a mere sport or hobby for these people…it is about shaping their future.
I listened to a former member discussing this on the radio. I can only use the words pompous,elitist and arrogant. to describe him.I am sure there are many like him and not just at Mirfield.
A golf course only works if it’s full of hummocks and hollow sandy bits, so the concept of a level playing field is clearly quite alien to these guys.
Ah, I see the anti-green campaign is still kept alive by some.
Well who can be surprised? Greens get people drooling all over them, constantly watered and well rolled, if there’s even a speck of dust on them people anxiously bend down and pick up the offending speck, carefully smoothing over the surface of the Greens.
And if that’s not enough, people actually are known to lie down to check out the “lie” of the green, to see if they are inclined in one direction or another. And if any person threatens to use an iron on the Greens as happened at St Andrews by an uncouth American, other people threaten to wrap their golf clubs around their necks.
So basically what we have is that Greens are totally spoilt, kept in pristine condition, and have holes drilled in them.
Still, gulls don’t discriminate so like everyone else, they still get shat upon.
Gfaetheblock and Scott , thanks for the information.
And Scott we have golf bats in the attic too – I think my husband has used them all of three times and on each outing mightily entertained real golfers with his flailing of his “metals” – as he called them.
Och leave them alone, their just being tories. Men! fit are they like?
To be fair 64 percent voted to let wimmin in.
Golf in Scotland is a working man’s game, a great game. Trades fours on a Wednesday afternoon on a public course, fish market porters against the boilermakers, great fun.
I’ve “played” for over 40 years, never been a member of a club and never wanted to.
Thankfully little pockets of the empire like Muirfield’s “honourable society of gentlemen golfers” are just about extinct.
As an aside I’ve always thought that the BBC’s Peter Alliss was a total arse and a disgrace to golf. He thinks caddies behave “above their station, wouldn’t have happened in his day harrumph”.
Another wee thought
The FM is an exceptional woman Dr Philipa Whitford outstanding person Joanna Cherry MP just a stoater of a woman
Christina Mckelvie MSP fizzingly smart, and on and on
These women would be not only welcome in my club,(if I had one) but I’d be inviting them to run it…BUT…
What if Katie Price or Kim Kardashian or God forbid, Katie Hopkins all demamded entry on the grounds of equality just like all those aforementioned highly regarded women
I’ve got to say, I wouldn’t let them in, but would that not cause a whole other set of problems because maybe the good women that I mentioned wouldn’t want them in either
Now I’m quite sure there are as many dumpling men as there are daft women but maybe this club has enough trouble dealing with the disruption they already have with rich stupid men and can’t face the idea of rich daft women as well
Anyway Golf at that level is not about the game, that’s entirely a secondary consideration, what it all revolves around is business and privacy, exclusivity is vital when conducting deals with clients it demonstrates to prospective partners a sense of dependability and security
In Japan billions of dollars are moved around on the Golf Course, it’s how they do business, they don’t have to be good at the game
I don’t know if this goes on at Muirfield or not but if it does it probably brings in more money to the economy (or to them) than the open tournament or they wouldn’t have taken that decision
My guess is it has sod all to do with not liking women
I would put money on it being MONEY!
britnat media says it’s all the SNP’s fault.
Grousebeaeter et al, slagging of golf, most courses in Scotland have a majority of members who are normal members of society and it is a working mans game. It is perhaps the cheapest way to enjoy a sport. Clubs need not be expensive and here on Arran we have seven courses where winter memberships which include playing as much as you wish start at £30 with annual membership of the club I am a member at £120.
With Inter club leagues and competitions it’s a great way to socialise as being a rather spread out community you can go months without seeing folk.
So leave your prejudices at home, you don’t know what your talking about.
The threat to the Scottish economy is UK gov appalling policies not the EU.
Do not believe the lies.
The UK/US/France illegal policies have destabilised and cost Europe £Billions and has caused millions of innocent people death, poverty despair. The UK Gov undemocratic policies damage the UK and the EU/world economy. The UK Gov are ignorant, duplicitous, greedy, corrupt liars.
Where does it end? Next we’ll have the Masons, the Knights, Rotary Clubs, The Lions, forced to admit women members.
Great cartoon, Chris.
That Jackson Carlaw gets everywhere, doesn’t he? 😉
I loved the Sudan reference. Wasn’t that where Kitchener and his troops committed an atrocity so bad it has a 100-year D-Notice (like everything to do with the Thomas Hamilton).
50% voted to let women in. 1/2. It needs 2/3rd. 66%
I do not play golf and have no real interest in it but I’m forced to pay attention to this because it’s all over the news just now. What I would like to know is how is this any different from women only golf clubs (apart from gender) and why are people and the press not complaining about them?
see: link to lundinladiesgolfclub.co.uk
It’s ALL about the Birdies. ;-j
Burds of pray,kin only be owned,as pur da rules.
Eagles: Emperors & Kings
Gerfalcons : Other members of Royalty
Peregrines : Earls
Goshawks : Yoemen
Sparrowhawks : Priests
Kestrels : Knaves or Servants
Birds of a feather…..
Socrates
@ 08.59,
” The Academy/Fettes/Merchiston/Heriots/Stew-Mel/Watsons, then Oxbridge,perhaps the forces, Law and Finance.”
You missed the glue that binds the Establishment…Freemasonry.
Are there any members of this club who are not WASP masons, I wonder?
Golf; a pointless sport which has become a televised epitaph of British values – elitist, governed by rules driven, tie wearing pedants & commonly exclusive.
Even in this 21st century, woman are made to fight for equality through a dreary, tedious argument so that they too, can wear diamond patterned, marsh mallow coloured jumpers & fritter away an otherwise useful Saturday afternoon, hauling a awkward bag of lop sided sticks behind them while navigating a manufactured green desert in the pissing rain.
If successful however, the frightening upkeep cost of their leased, silver coloured, German made vehicles in the parking lot will never be admitted to but the illuminated button that lazily closes the boot lid will surely raise a jealous eyebrow at the whisky bar.
Have I missed anything out?
@ Socrates, we used to have golf clubs in Scotland which wouldn’t enrol Jews or Catholics, being private clubs was no excuse, the Jews had to set up their own club. No it wasn’t alright then, and discrimination of any flavour isn’t alright now.
Anent the gowf! today’s National has the Donald Trump’s emigrant Maw story. She wasn’t just on a holiday to the States for a wee strupach with her sister in the Big Apple but a poor emigrant domestic servant, much like the Mexican’s he’s trying to keep out now.
If it wasn’t for this here woman(moi), a round of golf would have been without it’s balls!
Suffice it to say that not ALL men are particularly adept at playing the game 🙂 🙂 🙂
Lenny Hartley: “Here on Arran we have seven courses”
Terrific. I hear Arran has then of thousands of acres; multiple golf courses will never be a waste of land.
I had my own run-in with the ‘Honourable Company’. You can use ‘Look inside’ to read the introduction for nuthin’ (Cheapskates).
link to goo.gl
@mogabee
meeow
Grouse Beater, there you go again, blaming all the evils of the world on businessmen and capitalism. Now discrimination against women is down to businessmen too…
The role of women in this country up until the 1980s was dire. I remember. In the workplace, it wasn’t businessmen who were holding them back and putting limits on what they could do and earn, it was the Unions and their members.
The Unions believed that men should be the bread-winners and women should be domestic servants who looked after them. They were openly hostile to women; it wasn’t even hidden.
Thatcher came along and liberated women. That’s the truth of it.
But, since you clearly aren’t too happy with our current economic system, maybe you’d care to offer up an alternative. If your alternative doesn’t involve the free market to some degree or another, you are technically insane.
People in the arts, academia, and the sciences should have some respect for the hand the feeds them, instead of biting it at every opportunity.
There’s a prevailing view in the business community that its their toil, sweat, and ingenuity that actually pays for just about everything you take for granted in this country. If not them, then who?
People in the independence movement generally need to grow up and refrain from making cheap attacks on businessmen & entrepreneurs. Outside of the childish minds of the radical left, there really isn’t an alternative to the system we have.
When you look at the data on who voted for No, it is clear that association with the radical left cost us our independence in 2014. And if we aren’t going to learn from that then we aren’t ever going to be independent.
It’s their club, they can do what they like.
I see no difference between that and women only gyms. Incidentally, I have no problem with women only gyms either.
There are plenty other golf clubs that welcome everyone (so long as you can pay) so why beat them up?
Here’s Jonathan Meades opinion on the mad world of golf.
Sums it up really.
link to m.youtube.com
Ahura Mazda: “there you go again, blaming all the evils of the world on businessmen and capitalism. Now discrimination against women is down to businessmen too”
And by posting bollocks your point is…?
Why should anyone care that some rich women cannot get into a rich men’s club that the majority of women couldn’t afford to join anyway?
Apparently there are more women only golf clubs in Edinburgh than mens so where is the outcry over that little statistic?
Where is the outcry for men not being able to join the WI or women being able to join the Freemasons, all fucking ridiculous and fucking hilarious at the same time.
Wow Chris 🙂
Just read of your outing to Muirfield LOL. How embarrassing for all of you but most especially for the club. How you all kept your cool, I will never know but I guess including it in your book is getting your own back in style. Love it.
OT……kind of
What I have often wondered is how golf club’s have managed to acquire large areas of often prime land.
Who actually owns the land and how is it affected by the right to roam ect….. Anyone????
Another embarrassment for Scotland quite frankly. I am sure golf is a very nice game, and I know women who play and love it, but to exclude anyone is a disgrace, it’s 2016!
Time to move into the 21st century, we have equality laws, so why this is allowed to happen I don’t know, but it’s school boy stuff and pathetic, and very, very backward. How depressing.
Oh God, women want to clutter up our private clubs with talk of the price of washing powder, and tampons and stuff.
Liz g says:
21 May, 2016 at 11:26 am
OT……kind of
What I have often wondered is how golf club’s have managed to acquire large areas of often prime land.
Who actually owns the land and how is it affected by the right to roam ect….. Anyone????
See my earlier comment. Look up ‘Inclosure Acts’
These various acts over hundreds of years allowed common land to be inclosed (enclosed) by elite landowners and the rights of common access (for grazing, firewood etc) to be removed (stolen)
It is the main reason why public land is no longer public.
I have nothing but contempt for golf clubs and their green deserts. As for Muirfield’s Members policy, it is a throwback to when women and wives were merely property.
‘Thatcher came along and liberated women.’
🙂
The best bacon-rolls are in WOS!
Yes yes ring fence and grown a serious hedge as was said charge to see passed the hedge, in to “Jurassic Park” spare no expense. The irony the blood sucking Lawers will probably be among the exhibits.
@Chris Cairns
Slightly off piste, but is that not you using golf as an excuse for business too? 😀
Don’t worry, I’ll buy your book one day
Who here knows there are more women only golf clubs in Scotland than men only? OPinions on that?
Do not believe the manipulated Polls. Unionists are deliberately manipulating the Polls. Illegally Gerrymandering.
The worst scenario for Scotland is in the UK Union and out of the EU. EU rights for Scotland protect people in Scotland from Westminster wasteful, discriminate and undemocratic behaviour.
It is just as important to campaign for EU/Yes as for the IndyReferendum.
It is EU/European human rights which achieved Devolution. Abeit under an irrational, rigged political system to create weak Holyrood gov, still under Westminster control, to muck up the Scottish economy.
It was the EU Court position on Human rights and self determination and the sovereignty of Scottish Law. EU rights guaranteed Devolution, the Independence Referedum. They will ensure another one. The corrupt UK Gov would deny Scotland Democracy.
It is absolutely important to vote YES – EU Ref and campaign for IN -EU. The EU costs Scotland nothing and gives Scotland many benefits and rights. Good social laws, a nearest, largest, market of 500million people. Pay a small contribution which comes back. Mutual benefits and protections. Higher in an Independent Scotland. It is beneficial to Scotland UK Governance is not. .
Westminster Tories are intent on change the Human rights legislation, enshrined in Devolution Act. That could change and affect Devolution, Holyrood powers and the rights of people in Scotland.
A few SNP MP’s are getting too comfortable at Westminster, putting their comforts before others. They should be telt straight and be brought back in line. The Queen’s speech, what a carry on. What a waste of time and money. Totally outdated. The Tory Royals are not impartial and take part in illegal invasions. The Royals break the Parliamentry Code. The Royals should slim down or bow out. Greedy tax evading troughers with increased revenues while vulnerable people are being sanctioned and starved.
Some of the anti-golf comments are absolutely puerile. Chris Cairns’s book on golf – No Tie Required – is first class and a great read. It doesn’t condone the minority of exclusive clubs like Muirfield. Ergo the cartoon. So don’t generalise from the particular. Or perhaps tell us your pastime and we can all have a rant at that. But preferably, get the chip off your shoulder and learn that there is plenty of room for a wide range of interests. Frankly, such intolerance as some have displayed is as bad as the Muirfield cretins.
Golf… a good walk spoiled.
To white men!
When I’m Fuhrer golf clubs will be turned into play parks. I really hate golf, golfers and clubs.
Sorry!
Thanks to Thatcher and the EU, women now get a fair shout in most things. Wages and opportunities aren’t perfectly equal yet, but they have been heading in the right direction since about 1979.
I would be willing to bet that Muirfield’s roots as a golf club are in some working man’s blue collar tripe and that’s where their rules on women derive from.
Worth remembering that during the first and second world war, the Unions were up in arms at the thought of women getting jobs in factories and would only consent to it — under threat of general strike — on the condition that they’d be shackled again to their sinks once the war was over. It’s as if they were more concerned about women’s emancipation than they were about the German war machine.
Right through the 50s, 60s, and 70s, the Unions generally were very hostile to women in the workplace. Back then the husband worked and brought home the wages to the servile wife whose role was to cook and clean and take care of the kids — it was basically the role of a domestic servant, as I said.
This was the underlying structure of society, a structure shaped and protected by Unions on the basis that a woman’s place was in the kitchen and men were basically heroes.
The bottom line is an evil capitalist businessman or entrepreneur doesn’t really care about gender providing the work gets done properly.
Look around you today at the sort of jobs that are still dominated by men, most of the trades, driving cabs and trucks, building work, etc., and they are all areas that were strongly unionised and associated with that tradition of the heroic working man nonsense that Unions peddled.
The new sectors of the economy and areas that were not in the vice like grip of Unions, shops, telesales, employment agencies, etc., basically the areas where business leaders have freedom of choice in terms of who they employ, and you find women predominate and do better than men.
How many delivery drivers who bring parcels to your house are women? How many plumbers or electricians? There’s a reason for that and it has nothing to do with business leaders calling the shots.
Dr Jim
“What if Katie Price or Kim Kardashian or God forbid, Katie Hopkins…”
There seems to be a ‘K’ rule operating there, but no wait, Kezia would break that… maybe.
What was the postal vote?
lol about sums it up Chris.
Ladies maybe you should all write to the head big cheese of the R&A the clue is in the name.
Frankly not unexpected these clubs are like walking into another century and are deep cringers of the state,oh and ladies its not men only its certain men only secret squirrel stuff and funny handshake gang who`s your father,dont blame golf just the boorish idiots who have hijacked it.
Grousebeaeter yes and built on land that is off no use for anything as is all links courses, that’s why they were built there.
Btw Golf is one of the main employers on the Island.
link to kittysjones.wordpress.com
A wee added point of view on the Tory government and its methods.
See kitty’s other posts
I am sure that they will be sitting in the member’s lounge this Saturday morning heaving a sigh of relief that it was only women that they had to vote on and not ethnics and wooftahs too
😉
peekay says:
21 May, 2016 at 8:54 am
I went to my local publicly-funded swimming pool on Wednesday evening, imagine my surprise when I couldn’t gain access because I was male
Ruby replies
These women only swimming sessions are done for religious reasons which is a whole different argument.
As far as I’m concerned I don’t care if their Golf Club is men only but I can’t imagine their sexist/misogynistic attitude will be confined to the Golf club.
If they are all businessmen then I would imagine they will hold the same attitude to women in the workplace.
Their wives will definitely know their place! It could be argued that this type of domestic abuse is far worse than the domestic abuse perpretrated by the ‘Old Firm Fans’
With physical abuse you can see the scars/black eye with psychological abuse there are no visible scars.
More dysfunctional bullshit in teamGB sports in the UK. Greatest UK athlete ever, comes from Dunblane, Scotland, ergo he’s bad.
link to archive.is
@Ruby
my psychotherapist friend would agree with you, she spends her time patching up the damage done by arsehole husbands!
There is also a thing called ‘system justification theory’ where the ideology that justifies inequality can affect the attitudes of the victims so that they actually support the status quo. Sounded like there was a few of them phoning in to KayE the other day.
Lenny Hartley: “Golf is one of the main employers on the Island.”
Your reply is usually classified as indoctrination well absorbed.
You cannot contemplate any other use for the land other than a golf course because whoever wanted to build one said exactly that what served his purpose – only good for a golf course.
PS: You don’t happen to have shares in one by any chance?
Suggesting they’re the mainstay of the island’s wealth is pitiful – you don’t say who owns them or where the profits go. But it’s a good reason for Scotland to decide how it’s land is best used so that places such as Arran can shake itself free of a reliance on tourism as its main income.
@ AhuraMazdaat 11:02am ….. ”Thatcher came along and liberated women. That’s the truth of it.”
God I’ve heard it all now. The truth of it? Someone’s peddling ‘untruths’ on here.
dont blame golf just the boorish idiots who have hijacked it.
correct, in Scotland at least it is (or was) a good grassroots working mans sport. I spent some time in my youth hacking round the local council 9-hole course after school. (I expect all those courses have disappeared by now? mine certainly has, sold off for housing)
Ha Ha. I love it we’re talking about golf. Past it now but I Loved it. Quite good too. Played off 5, dontcha know. All you golfy phobes won’t understand that but yaboosucks to you all.
Golf in Scotland is the most egalitarian of sports. Also the only sport in the world where you referee yourself. Touch the ball even slightly at address (I know I’m showing off now) and you have to tell your partners and add 1 to your score.
On Muirfield. They can do what they want, sure, BUT the absence of the Open, however infrequently, will cost around £70 million to local businesses. I think that makes it a matter of public concern as will any knock on in terms of golf tourism.
They should be prosecuted under Sex Discrimination legislation. Heaven knows, they’ve got enough lawyers to defend themselves!
If the gentlemen golfers of Edinburgh want to be openly gay I think it should be up to them.
By the way this years open is being played at Royal Troon which is also a “mannies nae fannies” club. This will be the last time it is played there unless they end the error of their ways.
No Thanks to Thatcher….. there i fixed that for you.
In the illusion of equilty instead of raising womens pay she lowered mens pay now everybody has to work in low pay and adults need to both work to have a family no council house for you to start a family in, its a big fuck off screwed to the wall mortgage for a house twice its real value or pay an extort in rent for an ex council house.
Deficits and blackholes austerity and cuts bankers running of with all the cash saying fuck you or we will crash the economy ahhh utopia aye right a total tory clusterfuck more like.
Neo liberalism doent work and neither does screaming left socialism both are as daft as each other and only bring the loonies out the woodwork and if you are unlucky one might get in charge.
katherine hamilton says:
Quite good played off five!
You bloody show off. That’s probably the reason Muirfield don’t want wimmin, you’d beat them, off the men’s tees too now doubt. 🙂
I wonder who does the cleaning, makes the coffee/tea, meals and so on at Muirfield probably some of the cross-dresser members and there are a few of them there.
Some people really aught to do some research before opening their gub.
“I would be willing to bet that Muirfield’s roots as a golf club are in some working man’s blue collar tripe and that’s where their rules on women derive from.”
The reality and truth though is a little different.
”On March 7th 1744 the Edinburgh Town Council presented a silver club for annual competition by ‘The Gentleman Golfers’, In doing so they required that ‘proper regulations’ governing conditions of play, be written and the thirteen Rules of Play were duly produced. Thus was the Company of Edinburgh Golfers created and recorded in the first minutes of the Club which also state that surgeon John Rattray won the Club’s first competition”
So it says on the Muirfield website and then there is a picture of one of the founding members for you to admire. The honourable:
“Lord President Duncan Forbes of Culloden. A moving spirit behind the formation of the Company.”
link to muirfield.org.uk
So who was the dishonorable Lord President Duncan Forbes?
“Duncan Forbes, Lord Culloden, lived from 10 November 1685 to 10 December 1747. He was an important figure in the legal establishment of Scotland for a number of decades and a staunch opponent of the Jacobites in two uprisings.”
“Duncan Forbes is credited with doing much to stabilise the Scottish legal system in the decades following the Act of Union between England and Scotland in 1707. On a less serious level he was also a keen golfer and had a role in the formation of an early golf club, the Gentlemen Golfers of Leith.”
link to undiscoveredscotland.co.uk
He was one of the Proud Scot but that sold out to England in 1707. No doubt that the “club” is doing it’s best to maintain the principles of a founder member.
Frogesque and other anti-golf posters
You are wrong in decrying golfers as wealthy snobs and out of touch misogynists. It is obvious that this applies to Muirfield which has always been a bastion of lawyers, bankers and similar wealthy professions. No doubt Unionists to a man.
This is not at all the case with almost very other club where the working man has always been the backbone of the club, and where pints and bacon sandwiches are likely to be enjoyed rather than fine clarets. It is your enjoyment of the game rather than your profession, or even your ability, that matters.
Anecdote Warning. A few years back I played in a four ball at Kelso. Names drawn from the hat.
There was me (engineer) a plumber, a surveyor, and a fellow called Guy. At the end of the round we learned that Guy was the Duke of Roxburgh. I don’t say this is typical but it is more likely in Scottish golf circles than in any other social gathering.
It has always been a democratic game. Muirfield with its emphasis on wealth and business is an aberration father than the norm.
As for using up prime land, this is not the case. Golf courses in Scotland, including the most famous, were always built on the poor margins – the links land between the farm land and the sea or along the foot of the hills, as in my area, where my local course used to be rough sheep pasture at the foot of the Pentlands
Imbecile Mazda: ”Thatcher liberated women. That’s the truth of it.”
How many women did she have in her cabinet?
To save readers checking for the answer it’s none! She appointed only one women ever, Baroness Young to Leader of the House of Lords.
She had no time for feminists. “I owe nothing to women’s lib.” – Thatcher 1975.
The last thing she cared about was women. She was too busy adopting all the worst characteristics of men.
Grousebeaeter you really are an ignorant twat,
Robin Williams, ‘Golf’ –
link to youtube.com
Lenny Hartly :Grousebeaeter you really are an ignorant twat,
You only managed a handful of sentences for your argument to evaporate. “The land is only good for links courses” – am still laughing.
Ian Brotherhood: “Robin Williams, ‘Golf’”
Brilliantly funny, Ian. I had forgotten about that one!
@Grouse Beater
I would say that golf brings in a lot of money to Arran. When you’re on the ferry you’ll often get groups of golfers going over for a day, or a weekend or mid-week 2 or 3 days, to play the courses, drink whisky, eat food, stay somewhere, spend money.
Groups can be engineers, teachers, or just a bunch of regulars from a pub, accountants, solicitors, builders, gardeners or any trade or none.
@Ian Brotherhood
Stop it! Your cracking me up.
Yesindyref2: “Arran. When you’re on the ferry you’ll often get groups of golfers going over for a day, or a weekend or mid-week 2 or 3 days, to play the courses”
And when you visited Japan, sir, what sights did you see?
Erm … golf courses.
No great buildings? Zen gardens? Their master ceramicists? Mount Fuji?
Erm … I think there was a mountain at the end of one course I played … it had snow on the top.
AhuraMazdaat,
Are you taking the Pi** or are you attempting satire?
if its the latter then it’s not funny.
Tosser..
@Grouse Beater
I haven’t been to Japan, and what’s that got to do with the 10% of GDP that tourism represents to Scotland, which includes golf tourism, whisky, castles, festivals, scenery?
You’re in the wrong here Grouse, Lenny Hartley has the right of it …
@jacksg
AH / AM / NCN is a troll.
@ Liz, Fred’s experience of golf conists of stealing the golf balls at Lethamhill & legging it sharpish then sellin the same to other golfers on another day, so an entrepreneur certainly! The Right to Roam doesn’t extend to the curtelege of a house, so gairdens are deffo out, dunno about the last hole etc’ but it might be dangerous.
There’s some really spooky stuff here about golf, being a nob’s game, for the rich, that sort of rubbish.
What a load of old cobblers lasts. Leaving out private clubs there’s a lot of municipal courses in Scotland where you can get annual tickets for not too much, and a fair few courses used to have (maybe still do) the unwritten “rule” that if you were out before the starter got there you got to play for free.
St. Andrews for instance had an incredibly low price season ticket for townspeople and students giving free access to all 4 / 5 / 6 courses though you’d need to book a tee time for the Old Course in advance (same rule about getting there before the starter).
Mmm, I refreshed and that posted instead. Spooky!
A golf course. Club house balcony overlooks 18th green.(Check out Troon and others). Women use it. Man on green misses easy putt to win. F**k, c**t etc. Happens all the time. Women’s captain complains about unseemly and unsporting demeanor.
T’ committee meets. Decision unanimous. Women barred from balcony.
Apocryphal? Probably. Funny? No. Likely? Oh yes.
Forget your ire about single sex clubs. It’s minor compared to the casual and not so casual sexism in these places. However it is changing. Lots of mummies and grannies have worked over many many years to finish this nonsense and it’s working.
I ran junior clubs for years and towards the end I saw lots more wee girls turning up.
Muirfield are so far off the f*****g zeitgeist that the comments about it being a boys’ club and not a golf club are totally accurate.
DerekM: “In the illusion of equilty instead of raising womens pay she lowered mens pay now everybody has to work in low pay and adults need to both work to have a family”
I think I understand your point. But even if it’s true that husband and wife need to work now to make a certain income, where before only one worked (the hero husband) to achieve that income, that would be a better and more just outcome; it would raise the role of women above domestic servant and create gender equality.
That equality matters, at home, in the workplace, and in society at large.
But it isn’t true that men’s earnings have halved since the 1970s. Not by a long shot.
An average hard working couple nowadays doing relatively unskilled and low paid work can quite easily achieve a combined income of £45,000 per annum. Hard to call that a tragic consequence of capitalism when you think how cheap stuff like food, TVs, domestic appliances, and clothes are.
The important thing for people on here to learn and understand is that there are a lot of people in that income category and the majority of them voted No. They voted No because they perceived that independence would result in them getting taxed by a radically left leaning new government that was committed to the sort of policies and politics that, let’s face it, didn’t even work in the 1970s.
People generally and especially women are much better off today (if they want to be) than they could ever have been in the 1970s. That being the case — and it is — why do so many on here want to go back to that nonsense and talk about those days as if everything was perfect back then?
@Fred
Yep, many black pudding and pie suppers were bought from selling lost golf balls back to players at Cairdie in Dundee.
Never used to nick any though, there were plenty to be found in the burn o the rough. Golfers didn’t like to get their feet wet.
As far as the discussion goes about Golf being an elitist sport, nah not at all. I never played though was on a course a few times in my life. Even in the 1980’s it cost £5 for a years membership that allowed you to play at Camperdown and Caird Park.
I know plenty of working men that liked a game of golf. There weren’t many Lords on the course though.
yesindyref2 says:
@jacksg
AH / AM / NCN is a troll.
Yes that was my attempt at sarcasm!
he is indeed our wee troll, only a staunch unionist would state @Margaret Thatcher liberated women and that’s a fact’
confused
Now look what you’ve done Chris.
Clubs, by their very nature are exclusive.
Not got the required £££ ? Not getting in !
Face doesn’t fit ? Not getting in !
Whatever happened to the Beggars Benison ? 😉
Indyref2: “There’s some really spooky stuff here about golf, being a nob’s game, for the rich, that sort of rubbish”
The risk with putting opinion on a social site is someone comes along and turns the particular into the general.
The discussion here about posh Jocks and English toffs is concerned with men only clubs, not ever club in the land. The rest is lampooning golf obsessions and the fake mystique built up around the game to make it seem closer to God.
That said …
Take a look at Edinburgh’s Royal Burgess Golf Society (1735) – the place where visiting spouses are shuffled off to an anti-room – only half-a-mile away from Silverknowes Gold club, a pay-as-you-play member’s club, and yet more acreages ‘landscaped’ to look natural terrain, but isn’t.
Why?
Because Burgess as a private men’s club – you need to be somebody to join it, so the council – or corporation as it was known back in the day – bulldozed acres of orchards and vegetable gardens to offer the downtrodden of north Edinburgh a place to hit a ball off an unwary seagull.
Two courses almost back-to-back. A wonderful use of city land.
Haven’t I already said that some people posting here need to do some research before opening their gub. Quite easily hmmm?
“An average hard working couple nowadays doing relatively unskilled and low paid work can quite easily achieve a combined income of £45,000 per annum.”
An relatively unskilled worker will be earning not much more than the minimum wage in the UK which is currently £7.20hr or less than £14,000 annually. Even if the mythical “relatively unskilled worker” earns 50% more than the minimum wage. A combined income still only reaches £42,000. Where you get £45,000 from only you can know. I reckon you pluck figures out of thin air.
Reality check from the Herald last year.
“The average Scots worker’s annual wage has fallen by almost £1,900 in real terms since the Tory-Lib Dem government came to power five years ago, according to new figures.”
“Chief executives of top companies now earn the equivalent of the average annual wage every two working days.”
“Citizens Advice Scotland said that they saw significant numbers of working Scots struggling to put food on their table because of low wages.”
“The average chief executive of a FTSE-listed company earned the the average Scottish wage of £27,045 in just over two days of work last year, making their annual salary 123 times the average Scottish wage.”
link to archive.is
Do you actually support distortion and inequality like this?
So how did the toryboy’s Queens eleven get on?
Those putting Arran up as a model of how to run a chunk of Scotland terribly well…
Like the Western Isles, Arran has always been used as a playground for English tourists and settlers.
Therefore, if the ‘locals’ want to keep it for a plethora of courses and links, that’s what it will remain. No harm in that, some will argue.
And in that lies Scotland’s disease and its fate – whether to be used as a playground and a backdrop, or to taken back into ownership of the people, the land realised for superior purposes and to better effect.
Aye Allis in wonderland about the golf and it’s a good day to be green init …init!.
As a Jambo…but well done! 🙂
She was a screaming nutjob mate with the economic sense of a junkie with £500 and her little igor henchmen were/are not any better.
SNP brings toryboy world to the UN, probably quite a long way from the clubhouse of posh boys too
link to archive.is
As part of George Osborne’s bid to cut £12bn from the annual welfare bill, last year’s budget included an announcement that child tax credits would only be paid for the first two children in each family, from April next year.
@heedtracker
“So how did the toryboy’s Queens eleven get on?”
They lost, so just in case Murdo Fraser or Adam Tomkins read this blog, get it right fuckin’ up you!
Scotland invented Game of Golf and Tennis brings in £Billions. Tourism, Golf, Tennis tournaments. World famous.
Just wondering if there will be any rioting in Glasgow tonight?
Marco McGinty says:
21 May, 2016 at 5:07 pm
@heedtracker
“So how did the toryboy’s Queens eleven get on?”
They lost, so just in case Murdo Fraser or Adam Tomkins read this blog, get it right fuckin’ up you!
Wings Over Scotland Retweeted
Mark Nicol ?@Lord_Nicol 19m19 minutes ago
Maggie Thatcher, Winston Churchill, Neil Oliver, Duncan Hothersall, Eddie Izzard, your boys took a helleva beating #ScottishCupFinal
Hmmm. I wonder if thon Queen Lizzie of England will be purring tonight? Nah, didnae think so.
Well done hibs.
I was brought up in England where golf is a pursuit for those wishing to gain status – on moving to Scotland I soon realised that here it is a popular game played by all sorts of folks.
Here there are really good municipal courses – the one at Muirhouse in Edinburgh springs to mind – nothing like that in England that I was aware of.
I worked with folk who were incarcerated in the Gogarburn hospital (now closed) and they used to tell me of the fun they had ruining games at the adjacent private course – well thought out strategies for disruption by folk with learning disabilities.
Mon the Hibbies.
h
Is not football a strange sport?
Teams that had such greats as, “The Famous Five”, of Gordon Smith, Bobby Johnstone, Lawrie Reilly, Eddie Turnbull and Willie Ormond, never won the Scottish Cup. Even when Hibs were always among the top Scottish teams.
Then Hibs go and win the cup while down in the lower divisions.
Toryboy’s Queens eleven loses but in defeat, toryboy world’s magnanimous, stokes up bigotry for sure but magnanimous too, which is nice
Murdo Fraser ?@murdo_fraser 19m19 minutes ago
Fair play to the Hibs. It’s been a long time coming. #ScottishCupFinal
2 retweets 9 likes
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Commiserations to Rangers Football Club in 2019 the taxman cometh again. A return visit. HMRC the Union tax collectors take no prisoners. Even Unionists politicians will not be able to help. No wonder the terraces are empty.
But Britnat hard core tories probably wont be dancing on the streets of Ljubljana tonight
link to twitter.com
Is it my imagination or is that a Green Union Jack flying outside the window at Hampden?
Stephen.
@Marco McGinty says: 21 May, 2016 at 5:09 pm:
“Just wondering if there will be any rioting in Glasgow tonight?”
Probably not but they may have to put on extra staff in A&E and keep the women’s refuges open rather late tonight.
Funny
Lord Darling ?@A_LordDarling 4h4 hours ago
Good luck to Rangers in the Scottish Cup final. As a proud Brit theres nothing I like more than to see small new businesses achieve success.
Funnier
Lord Darling ?@A_LordDarling 4h4 hours ago
Good luck to Hibernian in the Scottish Cup final. As a patriotic Hearts fan there’s nothing I like more than a strong, successful Edinburgh.
Most dull English dude on telly ever, stokes it up
Piers MorganVerified account
?@piersmorgan
Shocking scenes at #ScottishCupFinal.
Fans all over the pitch, fighting everywhere. Disgraceful.
Heedtracker: “Britnat hard core Tories [Tomkins] wont be dancing on the streets of Ljubljana tonight”
There are times I have to admire your bravura.
Paula Rose: “they used to tell me the fun they had [Gogarburn Hospital] ruining games at the adjacent private course”
There’s good comedy material in that, and a whiff of ‘One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest’ – the scene in which you couldn’t tell apart patients from doctors.
Anyhow, back to work for me … been diverted too often here to day. Afterwards I’ll see how far I can hit the ball from my sea view balcony into the ocean, maybe clock a passing pelican if the timing is right.
@Robert Peffers
“Probably not but they may have to put on extra staff in A&E and keep the women’s refuges open rather late tonight.”
I sincerely hope that there won’t be rioting, but you never know. You are spot on with A&E and refuges, though.
Utterly pissed off that Sunshine on Leith was cut short – as an uplifting experience, Hibs fans singing SoL comes a very close second to Liverpool fans singing YNWA.
Jet Jockey says:
21 May, 2016 at 2:43 pm
I wonder who does the cleaning, makes the coffee/tea, meals and so on at Muirfield probably some of the cross-dresser members and there are a few of them there.
Ruby replies
These are jobs for ‘the girls’
The boys will retire to the lounge to drink port & smoke cigars in order to let ‘the girls’ get on with the cleaning, washing-up and tea & coffee making.
When I use the terms ‘the girls’ I am referring to women in their 50’s & 60’s I expect everyone knew that.
‘The girls’ are probably delighted to do all the cleaning etc ‘system justification theory’? Glamaig
Just out of curiosity why would a man need to be a cross dresser in order to do the cleaning tea/coffee making etc?
Grouse Beater says:
21 May, 2016 at 5:31 pm
Heedtracker: “Britnat hard core Tories [Tomkins] wont be dancing on the streets of Ljubljana tonight”
I quite miss old Prof Smirky’s furious Slovenia votes NO ranting, btl Graun and Herald.
From Slovenian btl anti Scottish democracy rage, to actually standing in Holyrood as a toryboy MSP (part-time he says, as its not worth his full-time) only likes of JK Rowling could make it up.
Trouble at Muirfield?
I blame the Greens.
GGTTH …..yesssssssssssss get it right up them….ahem….no surrender billy boys ?… no need…….yae were BEATEN ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha….it’s sunshine on Leith…..und raining on Ibrox…Da tears of da clowns…..ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!
Hey Adam Tompkins what is 3 – 2 for Hibs , it’s a win right, yeah it’s a win for Hibs against Rangers………thought so………… ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha….don’t know about her majesty but I’m feckin purring…..miaow miaow purr purr und feckin purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
My golf course experiences!
I did play ‘pitch & putt’ as a child but what I found more interesting was to find all the lost golf balls peel of the white plastic covering, miles of elastic bands and then get to the bag of white paint in the centre & squirt it all over the place!
We were quite poor so we didn’t have barbie dolls, playmobil or lego. Ach! golf balls & tar barrels were just as good as these expensive toys!
BBC r4 teatime sports news, very quick “ugly scenes at Hampden Park…”
Our BBC imperial master baiters are not amused Hibs.
I am a former Rangers fan who has totally given up on them
through their rogue supporters vile actions during and after
the referendum.
Still today they sing their bitter bigoted songs to maintain their religious hatred of people who actually have Christian qualities and attend a house of worship.
I’ve listened to some of these fools talking about winning the Premier League next season and stopping Celtic’s 5 in a row run? If they had a snowball’s chance of doing that, why is it that they have not won a single match in their last 5 attempts with teams from the lower league????
In today’s final, the Rangers team appear to have had only 2 shots on target over 95 minutes of play, while Anthony Stokes of Hibernian had 5 himself.
The current Rangers team do not have any quality players, no Captain with Leadership Skills, are not a team, a manager who ever won anything at the top level, nor the finance to buy players good enough to win anything.
The stark reality will hurt their honest supporters, who just want to follow their chosen team, but these vile sectarian hooligans need to be removed from football and from our society.
@Ruby
Did the same myself 🙂
Do you know though why golf balls are like that and why They have dimples?
Engineering and aerodynamics have worked hard to improve the simple golf ball. Golf terms, hook or slice when the ball doesn’t go in a straight line. This has been studied too. It is caused by the “Magnus Effect” a horizontal force caused by spin that moves the ball from a straight line to a curve.
Some golfers use this to their advantage without even knowing why it works. Becker used to do it when taking a free kick and sticking the ball in the top corner for Man U.
I’m just having a laugh, but it’s all true. A lot of people take golf very seriously.
Just wish we could take poverty and inequality just as seriously. If that’s “left wing” then that defines me.
Ruby says:
21 May, 2016 at 5:55 pm
My golf course experiences!
Its a great Scottish sport Ruby. I’m from Aberdeen where there are the most stunning courses. Hazelhead’s a gorgeous cheap public course with great views across Aberdeen and the Highlands. Best thing for you.
Of course Becker did the same with a tennis ball. It was Beckham putting in the net for Man U. LOL
For those who think invading football pitches and attacking players is in some way any kind of justification for anything are just as bad as the Lunatics on the other side
We’ve got a government trying to stamp this behaviour out as they should but now we have the other side of the divide glorifying themselves in this disgusting behaviour that they always blame the other side for and it won’t do
As long as this continues, Scotland will be seen as a barbaric third world nation riven with religious sectarianism fighting over something that’s not even provable
How very modern and enlightened we are,
Thugs are thugs, whoever or whatever they happen to support
For those people who took part in this today I say well done you’ve put Scotland on the world map again enjoy the attention because if it wasn’t for the police just ask yourselves how much worse that would have gone
Because the Media a and Telly are just going to love ramming the barbarity down our throats
Murdoch’s hired goons got prediction of sorts right, shock.
Kenny Farquharson ?@KennyFarq 9h9 hours ago
I bumped into the janny from my kids’ old school last night. Lifelong Gers fan. He’s hoping for a Hibees win “to stop the fuckers moaning”.
OT
I hope that things will be peaceful in Glasgow tonight and many other places.
I fully expect what happened today to be turned into an SNP BAAHD SCOTS UNFIT TO BE INDEPENDENT tirade in the Yoon Press and Media.
For those folk who want the OBFA to be repealed, well they need to take a good long look at themselves in the mirror. Those who think it should be repealed well think again!
The bias of the Yoon media is already in overdrive ignoring the fact that the idiocy started early with the setting off of flares/smoke bombs by Rangers so called Fans.
Oh and imagine Police Scotland intervening to stop one set of fans getting up to their knees in feinien blood. The singing of certain songs was bloody obvious from watching it on the goggle box. The idiocy never ends.
I actually enjoyed the game as a neutral. As to the rest of it, only cretins could enjoy that.
Apparently the wrong team won, according to Rangers fans.
At Glasgow Unais in the 70’s we all kicked up a stink about the male only GUU beer bar. Young and radical I was up there shouting how sex discrimination was terrible. I was all for it being open to both sexes.
We were wrong. It was the best bar in the place until they ruined it letting women in.
I have no interest in Golf. But sometimes things are just fine the way they are. If private members of a private club don’t like the rules they can take their business elsewhere.
Now the big issue I would make a fuss about is football. I understand there are lots of women playing that. Yet I don’t think a single SFA league club fields any women at all. And they should have equal pay too.
Macwhirter goes in hard, SNP v v bad, Sturgeon worse but he has seen a glimmer of hope
link to iainmacwhirter.wordpress.com
“Most of the mistakes made by the last SNP administration arose from it getting its own way. The most obvious was the Offensive Behaviour at Football etc Act, which is now universally derided as one of the worst pieces of legislation to emerge from Holyrood – “mince” as one Sheriff described it. The Act arose because of Alex Salmond’s determination to “do something” about sectarianism. It was rushed through by a cabinet of yes-men and women and endorsed by SNP MSPs whose reluctance to criticise or question their leadership is legendary.”
Maybe OBFA couldn’t have stopped the ugly scenes.
If only Macwhirter could be the next king of Scotland.
I don’t know what all this pitch invasion fuss is about. Throughout the entire match, the Sevco fans were shouting Hello, Hello, so at the end of the match the Hibs fans just went over to exchange pleasantries!
Funny how the Hibs fans are being berated for going on the pitch at full-time. This has happened at almost every cup final I can think of. The trouble didn’t start until Rangers fans invaded the pitch to confront the Hibs fans. But according to the news it was all Hibs fans, no mention of the Huns invading.
davidb. I agree, if it is a private members club, they can make any rules they like… but they can then understand that they cannot expect to hold national or international events. Simples.
@ B McHugh.
Oh I do agree wholeheartedly with that view. The GUU were banned because of their attitude from other Unions. And internationally I think human rights should be universally upheld. I actively boycott some countries.
But it is up to the private members of a private club to make their own rules.
Now when are Celtic FC going to play ( genetic ) women in the first team?
@Brian McHugh
“but they can then understand that they cannot expect to hold national or international events”
Like the Open – a men’s competition, no women allowed. Anyone else see the hypocrisy/irony from the R&A?
Heed tracker @7.06: indeed.
MacWhirter is such a sad, twisted, little man where the SNP is concerned. But he is a good LD federalist, of course. A great policy, since about 1912, so that’s a winner.
But, look, two nice wee books published on the back of being a Yes man.
I do hope sound tapes of the cup final at the Queen’s XI end are analysed: some nice folk music, no doubt.
If MacWhirter were King he’d be Toom Tabard of the 21st century.
Scott shaw, your memory is playing tricks, there are never pitch invasions after a Scottish Cup final. The last one was the infamous one in 1980.
@IvMoz
Sorry mate, but that is bollocks. Just like their are Womens and Mens competition at Wimbledon, so too is there in golf as far as the British Open goes.
link to ricohwomensbritishopen.com
“only a staunch unionist would state @Margaret Thatcher liberated women”
Only an idiot would say such a thing.
There’s no contradiction in wanting Scottish independence and also recognising that certain famous British figures and British achievements were commendable.
Anyone that says otherwise is a small minded fool.
Thatcher was the most revolutionary figures of 20th century British history — anyone who disagrees is obviously sexist.
Sevco? This the same lot who wanted the ferry contract? 😎
@ Thepnr
Bollocks. Women cannot play in the Open championship. Fact.
You’re spectacularly failing to see the point.
Why don’t the R&A invite women to enter the Open?
@galamcennalath
No that was Servco. Important to be accurate without stirring the porridge.
Sheesh Grouse, Arran, Millport, Rothesay and Dunoon used to be just about Scottish only tourism in days gone yore. It’s changed as Scots fly off more to destinations sunny and warm, but they still get a whole load of Scots tourists. A standard thing used to be for those that could afford it, a week in Arran and a week abroad in the year, still is for some if the wife hasn’t put the foot down!
@IvMoz
Women don’t play in any tennis tournaments that men compete in men either. They don’t play darts, snooker, rugby, boxing or football against men.
Do men and women compete over the 100m sprint or in the marathon at the Olympics. Of course not because it would be bloody stupid!
The simple fact is women would be at a disadvantage in any of these pursuits simply because, guess what Women and Men have different physiques.
Your a FUD. What’s your point?
O/T
Let’s spend the next 5 years building support for indy.
Nae pressure. Just a thought like.
My heart was broken, my heart was broken, sorrow, sorrow sorrow 🙂
Where is Dick Gaughan joy to the Leithers… 😀
Scott Shaw at 7.07
You might well be right. The first violence I can see on the clips I’ve watched is a Hibs supporter being kicked by several from the other end. The whole melee will have to be watched
@Proud Cybernat
Oh I don’t know. It seems to be much more fun slagging off Greens, RISE, SNP, Tories. Labour, LibDem, men golfers, women golfers, non-golfers, tennis playing people, islanders, non-islanders, people who take ferries, people who work on ferries, people who ruin ferries, people who don’t run ferries, football supporters, referees, police horses, settlers, non-settlers, English, non-English, dogs, cats, spiders, politicians, plebs, ummmmmm
If SLab-saviour, egg-collector and fud-in-general Jim Murphy had had his way they’d have been necking bevvy for the ninety minutes prior to the final whistle.
@Breeks says: 21 May, 2016 at 5:48 pm:
“Trouble at Muirfield?
I blame the Greens.”
Unlike at the Scottish Cup Final where the Newco Rangers lot are blaming the Green and Whites.
AhuraMazda says:”Thatcher was the most revolutionary figures of 20th century British history — anyone who disagrees is obviously sexist.”
Now tell me how many women Thatcher had in her Cabinet, or even promoted in government?!!
Here’s hoping, one day, we get to have a celebration like this.
Well done Hibs.
link to youtube.com
No it isn’t. The Open is NOT male only. From the entry form:
C. ENTRIES
(1) Entry into RQ will be accepted from any male professional
golfer, from a male amateur golfer whose playing handicap
does not exceed 0.4 (SCRATCH), from a male amateur golfer
who has been within WAGRTM listing 1-2,000 (see www.
WAGR.com) during the period WAGRTM week 2016/01 to
date of entry and from any female golfer in
(i) The top 5 and ties in the 2016 ANA Inspiration.
(ii) The top 5 and ties in the 2016 KPMG Women’s PGA
Championship. Blank entries will be made on the
behalf of competitors qualifying in this category.
(iii) The top 5 and ties in the 2015 US Women’s Open
Championship.
(iv) The top 5 and ties in the 2015 RICOH Women’s British
Open Championship.
(v) The top 5 and ties in the 2015 Evian Championship“
@IvMov
I keep insisting on doing your research before opening your gub.
Only the deaf are NOT listening.
How’s it feel to have your arse handed to you on a plate?
Nice find yesindyref2.
@yesindyref2
The thing is, in general, women (at the moment) don’t do well at the golf competing with men.
But they sometimes try. I remember this woman.
Isabelle Beisiegel
Attended 2004 PGA Tour Qualifying School, becoming the first woman to compete in the event.
Earned Canadian Tour card for 2011, becoming the first female player to earn a playing card on a men’s professional golf tour.
However, she did not make the cut in any of the six tour events she played, and lost the card after the 2011 season.
She was getting cuffed! 🙁
One of my favourite Scots is:
Catriona Isobel Matthew MBE is a Scottish professional golfer who plays mainly on the U.S.-based LPGA Tour and is also a member of the Ladies European Tour.
Does well on ocassions and watched her over the last 3 weeks challenging the younger ones. Good player and ambassador a treasure. 🙂
I had a low handicap for many years starting with my highest 12 and got to 3. Played mainly in Scotland & Fife with miners like my father, railway workers, brickies etc etc a common man’s game.
Haven’t struck a ball since the day my father died Captain of the club in his time… too many memories, too busy, takes too long.
@Effijy says: 21 May, 2016 at 6:14 pm:
” … The current Rangers team do not have any quality players, no Captain with Leadership Skills, are not a team, a manager who ever won anything at the top level, nor the finance to buy players good enough to win anything.
To tell the truth, Effijy, I’ve come to the conclusion that the football authorities are killing the game. When they reduced the size of the leagues and had teams playing each other four times per season. It only really benefitted the Old firm or perhaps the bigger city teams with local derby games.
In my opinion, and results bear that opinion out, the top few teams in the Championship are better than the mid to bottom teams in the Premier division.
A reduction in the number of divisions, but an increasing in the number of teams in each division, would benefit most teams and not just the bigger city teams with their derby games.
It is fine seeing the top teams fighting it out to win the premier division but it is hellish watching some mid to end of season no hopers meet each other in games that don’t matter a jot.
Another thing to notice is that the commentators and pundits are all shouting their heads off. Don’t they know what microphones are for?
It seems they are only trying to make dull games seem exciting – far as I see the only really excited guys are the roaring numpties doing the commentaries.
@heedtracker says: 21 May, 2016 at 7:06 pm:
“Macwhirter goes in hard, SNP v v bad, Sturgeon worse but he has seen a glimmer of hope.”
Dunnow! heedtracker, for I stopped reading when he trotted out that total load of bollox that the law was universally berated. Facts are chiels whit dinna ding and the vast majority of people in Scotland are happy to see the sectarianism being dealt with.
That is stone cold fact. It is not even a majority of football supporters that are against it and we all really know just who the minority that want it gone are.
A useless tidbit but good news for green-keepers working on an R&A course.
If there is a war you will be exempt from conscription.
This was the case during both world wars.
People still played the game, war or not.
Odd but true.
Thepnr says: 21 May, 2016 at 8:24 pm:
“Women don’t play in any tennis tournaments that men compete in men either.”
As long as we are being pedantic – what are those players with the wee skimpy skirts that play in the mixed doubles then?
@Robert Peffers and @heedtracker
What would shut Macwhirter, Kelly and their cronies up would be a Scotland-wide referendum on sectarianism. Okay, it would cost money, but who cares? And, with a question on the ballot paper like: “Should we, the people of Scotland, adopt a stance of zero-tolerance against sectarianism in Scottish society?” there would be a massive majority for YES.
I wonder how many of those Hibs fans changed their scarf for a day.
Thats unfair or is it anyway well done Hibs.
ot
I see that yoon that talks funny yon Preston chap has an itv show on sundays where you can phone up and talk with him about how bored you are with politics.
Anybody fancy seeing if you can get through to give him an answer to his question,i would but he gives me the creeps and i will probably shout zoomer at him,i have this bad habit of pointing out the truth ,i blame the Rev lol
BBC tv news focus entirely on Hampden pitch invasion, sound bites from the laughing IDS too, he’s explaining how it was George Osborne who said do NOT trust the Treasury and their reports. Through the UKOK looking glass again.
link to civilserviceworld.com
Great British Civil servants of the Treasury, corrupt, untrustworthy, say the toryboys.
Sassenach: “Now tell me how many women Thatcher had in her Cabinet, or even promoted in government?!!”
You’re asking the wrong question and you are hardly likely to the reach good conclusions in this world if you ask the wrong questions. The famously stupid Grouse asked the same question earlier and I ignored it.
What you’re asking is the equivalent of asking “how many black people has Obama brought into cabinet?” Where Obama might have done more in that regard than Thatcher, his reign has been a resounding failure; all he will be remembered for is his skin colour.
Thatcher done something much more profound and long-lasting for women than conceding a few token jobs in government; she transformed the whole country’s perceptions of women, won elections, and won respect from almost all corners of society, male and female.
Not many on here would care to admit it, but Thatcher was successful. It’s probable that Nicola Sturgeon as a woman would never have been given the top job in Scottish politics if Thatcher hadn’t blazed a trail for women before her. The same can be said of many other female leaders in other countries.
After Thatcher, nobody in this country or any other can ever doubt women in terms of their ability to lead and govern a country, a corporation, or any organisation. We take that for granted now but only because of the part she played. And that’s why she was probably the most revolutionary figure of 20th century Britain.
Many men on the left use the cloak and cover of politics to attack Thatcher when their real objection to her is probably grounded squarely in male chauvinism.
It’s easy now to imagine another women making it to Number 10 and that’s down to the success of Thatcher. As Trump pointed out, the opposite is true of Obama; his miserable failure as a president will probably make it less — not more — likely that we will see another black president in the White House any time soon.
One of my rare posts on Facebook…
(Picked up the YouTube link from the current active page.)
——————————————-
Many Scots, particularly those of us who were on the YES side of the independence referendum, see the BBC’s presence in Scotland as being “broken”, specially when it comes to news, current affairs and sport.
Like many Scots, I watched the cup final on BBC Scotland this afternoon. (I don’t do Sky.)
At 5.30pm, just as the cup had been presented to Hibs, BBC Scotland cut their coverage from Hampden, to squeeze in a 5 minute edition of ‘Reporting Scotland’, before switching over to the preamble leading up to the English cup final.
The lead story concerned a vote in the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland as to whether gay ministers could marry. I can’t even tell you how the vote went but I kinda gathered that it was now ok.
BUT… the BBC coverage from Hampden more or less ceased around a minute into the video below. I, as a Dundonian, non-Hibs supporter, had the shiver up the spine, watching the team and supporters (their visible emotion) singing “Sunshine On Leith” in the video.
Surely THAT event was of more interest to to viewers who were tuned into BBC Scotland at 5.30pm, rather than a decision in a church committee? And an English footie preamble?
link to youtube.com
OOPS! Sorry!
Meant to post that in ‘off-topic’.
8=(
Given the silence of Rev via WOS Twitter, can we assume that he is working on a piece which will hole Yoony opposition to OBFA below the waterline before it’s been launched?
Wee videos here are there are becoming increasingly ‘orrible, and it seems that Police Scotland’s finest have been pursuing a ‘riotous’ mob of unhappy Rangers fans through Glasgow’s East End.
Oooo-er!
Whatever will BBC North Britain make of it all tomorrow?
Do not play golf but does it not work both ways
As at the beginning of 2014, there are 22 women only Scottish golf clubs affiliated to the SLGA
@Robert Peffers
Hey Robert hope your keeping fine. Don’t be winding me up please it’s hard enough staying sane with the normal guff.
Anyway, you answered your own question. It is mixed doubles nothing to do with men and women taking each other on directly.
There have been a number of matches between Men and Women Billy Jean King hammered Bobby Riggs 3-0 in sets. Billy Jean though was 26 years younger than Riggs.
Maybe the best match was this, though there is a catch.
A third “Battle of the Sexes” match, entitled Battle of Champions, was played at Caesars Palace in Paradise, Nevada on September 25, 1992 between Jimmy Connors and Martina Navratilova aged 40 and 35 respectively.
Navratilova had previously turned down invitations to take on John McEnroe and Ilie N?stase, as she considered them undignified. The promoters initially tried to match Connors with the then top ranked female player, Monica Seles. Connors called the match ‘war’. Navratilova, on the other hand, called it a battle of egos.
The match was played under hybrid rules to make it more competitive; Connors was allowed only one serve per point, and Navratilova was allowed to hit into half the doubles court.
Each player received a $650,000 guarantee, with a further $500,000 for the winner. Connors won 7–5, 6–2.
Navratilova made 8 double faults and 36 unforced errors.
Connors, too, was nervous and there was a rumor that he had placed a bet on himself to win at 4:1. According to the Connors book “The Outsider” he placed a million dollar bet on himself, saying that he would lose no more than 8 games.
Greedy bastard Conners.
Robert Peffers says:
21 May, 2016 at 10:00 pm
@heedtracker says: 21 May, 2016 at 7:06 pm:
“Macwhirter goes in hard, SNP v v bad, Sturgeon worse but he has seen a glimmer of hope.”
He is an odd duck isn’t he.
Right from his weird “Following tabloid revelations about the private lives of SNP MPs,” It’s the Herald that went massive with it and still is. Herald’s a broadsheet not a gutter Daily Record tabloid, or used to be.
If that’s all he’s got on the SNP, still no convictions on the “two SNP MPs over allegations of financial irregularity,” you can see them seated on the SNP Westminster benches too, so who knows what level of ego mania that dudes worked himself up to.
He’s not a YESer but hasn’t got the balls to say so, shock.
MadbawsHudgie is probing for the tickly parts of the WOS underbelly.
Please don’t react, or laugh, or twitch, cause then he’ll know where to probe profitably.
A’body and his dog knows that Thatcher became Tory leader because she was considered the best person for the job at the time. Her being ‘a woman’ had fuck-all to do with it.
Thatcher stole the bairns milk. That’s as much as I need to know.
Halfwit.
After the sickening behaviour of a significant number
Rangers “followers”, singing offensive sectarian songs, setting off flares safe in the knowledge of such actions
have previously maimed and injured innocents, unwarranted attacks on players and fans of the better team, and a few police officers for good measure, we must now listen to the Westminster based political parties sitting in Holyrood
They still insist that they have a case for dropping any laws that might deter the above behaviours.
They would also like to allow these animals access to further excesses of alcohol at the match as they propose that this would make them more level headed and amenable?
These wasters are willing to let these actions flourish and blight Scotland’s cities in order to quash an SNP Law that is designed to stop them and protect us.
Bigoted Bastards & Criminals- The BBC
Still no coverage of the Hibs v Sevco on Empire TVs I-Player.
Had a wee look at bits on Ya Tube.
Who was the wee Scottish plamph on Sky sports?
Clearly talking pish as far as I could see.(It looked like jubilant Hibees fans celebrating)
Well done to Hibernian Fc and hard luck Sevco you might get to win the Scottish cup for the FIRST TIME in the future.
Sure I saw Shortbreads sports reporter Keradine with a face like thunder on one of the clips. Boo Hoo.
Brenda must be Pissed Off, I don’t give a shit about Murdo Fraser, and I am sure Nicla will get the blame.
Predictably bitchy stuff from Prof Smirky there and a wee taster of just how just this one tory twit’s going to use Rangers, for the next five years of his creepy style of loyal UKOK politics, in Holyrood to which he came third in the election.
Thanks so much D’Hondt:-(
Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 5h5 hours ago
I was at the game. Well played to Hibs. But their fans’ pitch invasion was disgraceful and frightening.
@Effigy
There’s no spinning out of this both clubs will be in trouble but Hibs are going to be in serious trouble, it was the other way round this time and it was Rangers players who were attacked and the police have the video evidence for it
Exuberance it wasn’t, they smashed the goalposts, dug up the turf and let Scotland down by doing the very thing they accuse the other side of doing, I just hope at least by the end of the night folk avoided each other and went home safe
It’s not going to end well and to quote star wars
I’ve got a bad feeling about this
@ Brian Downthedoon
BBC One MUST show local news as part of licence for x period, regardless if it’s rubbish or not.
And let’s not forget that they had already extended their coverage as a bunch of arseholes were on the pitch.
After that shit happened on the park – they’d gladly hit eject as soon as trophy was lifted. Game was long over.
If on Two then perhaps different as not restricted with news.
End of the day, the arseholes on the pitch was the sole problem. Must have caused 20 to 30 minute delay of trophy.
In case you missed “Sunshine on Leith” after the game on BBC. Here it is.
link to youtube.com
Cough up for Deputy Deadwood MSPs told
Aye no Costa Del Sol …Costa fortune more like!
And a wee go a Ruthie to get these ships we were promised!
Love it… cheered me up a bit.
link to archive.is
Thepnr
Thanks for the link. I presume coverage of any extra time would have been cut short for a wee bit north britain news and the english final.
A wee reminder of the subjugated colony we inhabit.
While not exactly turning a blind eye to a winning team’s fans invading the pitch repercussions are generally light. Especially when it involves a rare win for a team, where an allowance may be made for the fan’s extra exuberance and delight.
However, in this case, we also had, unheard of in modern times, the invasion of the pitch by fans from the losing side, albeit in smaller numbers.
That is something which has to be nipped in the bud less disaster strikes some future game.
Sadly, Hibs can expect far greater repercussions because of that.
Clearly the police felt it prudent to delay the cup presentation until all the Rangers fans were not only out of the stadium, but some distance away or at least until control in the streets could be ensured.
Anyway congrats to Hibs and their long suffering cup fans and I hope they get somewhere good to go to for the Europa Cup quals.
Thepnr says:
22 May, 2016 at 12:20 am
In case you missed “Sunshine on Leith” after the game on BBC. Here it is.
That was a magnificent spectacle unrivalled by anything since Argentina’s win in River Plate 78.
Kudos to Hibees and fans.
Quite enjoyed the UFC at the end as well 🙂
I’m with Labour, cons, libs and the Daily Record. They should have been selling alcohol at the game to relax everybody.
We must congratulate the Hibs fans for their result today and applaud the restraint they showed in the face of the the usual genocidal songs and threats from “Rangers” fans.
First thing we should emphasise is that Hibs fans went on to the pitch to celebrate. Second thing, Rangers fans went on to cause trouble — they had no justifiable reason for being on the pitch whereas the Hibs fans did.
I see that the “Rangers” goalkeeper seems to have been assaulted and that’s unfortunate. Out of what looked like about 15 thousand Hibs fans who went on to the pitch, we should be glad that only a handful were aggressive like that.
Of the 300 or so Rangers fans that went on to the pitch, it looks like about 95% were aggressively inclined.
The media will of course misconstrue this and the authorities will bow to pressure and blame Hibs. Who cares?
“Rangers” got put in their place today and will not be taking part in European football this year. I’m not interested in football but I am happy about that since I don’t want “Rangers” representing our country and tarnishing its image on the European stage.
Well- Leith Walk tonight is what I imagine the entire Nation of Scotland will be like when we eventually reassert our independence and take our rightful place amongst the sovereign nations of this planet.
We have an obligation to show the rUK and Europe that there is another way.
What a glorious day to be alive.
Salut my brothers and sisters
HIBEES!!! = )
Both my Grandfathers will be dancing in Heaven!
Thankyou Ian Brotherhood @9.28pm
Tam, glad you are out enjoying the wonderful atmosphere 🙂
This will be such a huge boost for the YES of Leith!
The tide is turning = )
Chris, great cartoon!
Muirfield is a window on the dying British Empire.
Listened to the match on BBC Scotland radio and have tried to catch post-match scenes and celebrations on youtube, so I may be missing something, but I just couldn’t believe the self-righteous pompous pish being spouted by almost all the commentators on the Beeb, including sadly the estimable Tam Cowan.
“A sad spectacle of Scottish football – the whole story will be about the post-match violence” and so on ad infin-nucking-nitum. I thought it was a great day for Scottish football and the only ones going on about violence are the pursed-lips brigade who seem frightened of any kind of expression of popular exuberance.
FFS 114 years and they had a great victory. Was it really so violent and unpredictable? Is a pitch invasion such a heinous crime? And why were the authorities and police so badly prepared that their only response is horse-mounted crowd control?
Please tell me I’ve got this all wrong…
@Ian Brotherhood
The subject watches the posts and when there’s a disagreement as often happens, picks the more popular side and gets nasty to the “loser”, with the idea of isolating him or her and aggravating any mninor disagreements. It could work but Wingers are too clued up – and aggressive themselves!
@call me dave
I haven’t played for a long time, cost and time. Used to have a long drive over 300 yards, have driven the back of the 18th at St Andrews – but not broken a window in the professional’s hut like Arnold Palmer. Got it by snapping the wrists at the last second which gives a few extra yards. Long but not very reliable, I got to see a lot of scenery and wildlife in the rough. Putting very good, getting out of bunkers a dawdle. Shame about the rest of the clubs, never could get the hang of them.
One again a football sporting occasion has been marked by bad behaviour. No wonder the terraces are empty. In 2019 the taxman cometh. Again. There will be nothing to celebrate. Some people want to repeal the ‘Offensives Football Act. That will not go down well with the majority of voters. In Glasgow at the Rangers/Celtic Derby helicopters hang over head to herd the participants. Visitors think a terror Act has occurred. It is extremely frightening for innocent people who have a right to be protected. Why are councils funding and allowing Orange Marches. That is an illegal use of public money. The Orange Lodge is elitist and discriminatory. Menbership is not open to all. No public funding should be going to such an organisation and divisive marches should be banned
Thatcher was one of the most diversive politicians ever, especially in Scotland. She ignored the Minsterial code and acted in secret and illegally. She secretly took the equivalents of £Billion of Oil revenues from Scotland. She kept it secret under the Official Secrets Act and her ministers Lang and Forsyth, who must known, to secrecy. One of her Scottish minister resigned. She was minority voted for in Scotland. The Official papers were released last year with ‘this must be kept secret’ written on it’
Other economic papers have been released which show the lies she was telling. Including breaking the Ministrial Code and allowing Murdoch to buy the Times newspaper group. She facilitated it and denied it. Meeting did take place at the time which she denied. It gave the balance of the British Press to right wing, tax evading non Doms. The Press illegally hacked and and commuted criminal acts for information. Bribed public officials for information. It the States it is illegal for Companies to bribe officials anywhere in the world. Punishable by fines and imprisonment. Without a balanced free Press there is no democracy. The one Thatcher cared about was herself and her son to whom she illegally diverted public funds along with her other associates – the Bankers etc, The Bankers funded the Tory Party and still do.
Thatcher (Reagan) deregulated the Banking sector. There were world/banking Laws agreements which kept reserves at 25%. Capital reserves relevant to expenditure. The banks were deleveraged from 25% reserves. It ended in 13% – half. It started with Thatcher/Regan and continued under Clinton/Brown etc. The Banks (UK/US) ended up lending out too much money with not enough reserves. When people with deposits came back for their money. The US give sanctioned Banks lending money for house purchases without enough collateral. The gov passed a Law forcing the a Banks to lend the funding. There was not enough money in reserve and Gov’s had to provide the funds to bail them out by printing money. Causing living standards to decline. Austerity. The Governments were taking in (taxes) less then they were spending – the deficit.
Thatcher illegally and secretly took the Oil revenues from Scotland and spent them building up Canary Wharf (‘loads of money’ – banking) and Tilbury Docks – 26 Miles of docking which meant most goods and services were centralised around London S/E. Creating more jobs situated there. Meaning less jobs in the rest of the UK but especially in Scotland. Scottish unemployment was the highest in the UK because of Thatcher’s centralised economic policies. More people in Scotland had to migrate to get a. Job and families were split up etc. Scotland has always had a tradition of migration because of Westminster economic policies. It is only since Devolution that employment in Scotland has been higher on average of the rest of the U.K.
Thatcher demutualise the Building Societies owned (protected) by their members and floated them off on the stock markets. There were taken over by the Banks. (Loads of money) The Banks bought over the Mortgage books and started to gamble the revenues on the Stock markets (Investment markets – not well regulated US etc) building up a pyramid scheme of lending. That went bust in 2008 banking crash. The Westminster Gov was responsible for extremely bad fiscal decisions which led back to Thatcher.
Thatcher secretly and illegally took all the Oil revenues from Scotland and shut down every manufacturing facility in Scotland. Causing unnecessary poverty and hardship in Scotland. The North/South divide. She didn’t care, she didn’t need Scottish votes. Just as Cameron doesn’t care. He doesn’t need Scottish votes. Thatcher came to Scotland to give a speech at the General Assembly. The ‘sermon on the Mound’. ‘We the English people are generous to you Scots’ Telling an absolute lie.
Thatcher also privatised untilities. Many utility company are now owned and run by foreign State companies. Scotland gets a bad deal paying a higher cost because it is colder. Despite being nearer to the sources and producing 25% more fuel and energy than it needs. The equivalent of a 10% tax on the whole of the Scottish economy. If Scotland was Indeoendent that would not happen.
The illegal wars and the banking crash has had a deprimental affect in the Scottish/world economy. Scotland did not vote for Thatcher or support her policies. The ‘laissez faire’ unregulated state of capitalism. The markets rule and rebalance themselves. They don’t. The most successful economies are market/capital based but with Government intervention to adjust for inequality, fairness etc. Thatcher was not kind to women or any one else, who values equality and fairness. Thatcher promoted herself and the upper classes were she spired to be. Made herself a multimillionaire by secrecy and unfairness.
It was the English working class who voted for her. Did they benefit proportionately but what about the miners, manufacturing and the Banking sector all eventually crashing lowering living standards and causing the death of vulnerable people. Inequality rose in society and women – one parent families, the old the sick and the young did not benefit. Not fair. Thatcher caused civil unrest and starved the miners. Now the Tories have stopped coal production in Britain everything is being imported. Putting up the deficit and the debt. Thatcher ended up with over 3 million unemployed and interest rates at 15%.
People losing their houses as they lost jobs and the mortgage rate went up. Thatcher was stabbed in the back by her colleagues to get rid of her. The English working class might have kept on voting for her. What a way to run an economy storing up problems for later. In the housing/banking crash many people lost a lot of money. Those at the top of the scam disappeared with all the loot -the fraudulent bankers. Some were censored but not put in jail, because the UK Gov allowed them to do it. They were as culpable as the Bankers. The U.K. treasury appeared not to know what was going on. The majority in the UK did.
There were 616 Muirfield members who voted. 219 voted YES.
Not many members for such a large Golf Course. It must be really exclusive. It might happen if membership falls. Or Club is stuck for cash. Female membership will be encouraged.
Punklin @ 5.18am
I think you are absolutely correct. Perhaps it is a welcome distraction for the BUM from the embarassment that is Muirfield.
Just watched a clip on STV online news of ‘reporters’ trying to put words into the Chairman’s mouth.(Sorry, can’t remember his name) He was saddened but held his ground firmly and did very well by the team and the supporters.
He could have cast aspersions on the conduct of the Rangers supporters and their club, who in any event, seem to condone the nastier chants and songs. But he didn’t. He retained his dignity and that of the Hibs FC.
The pitch invasion looked joyful to me.
Until some Rangers folks decided to come on too looking for a fight.
Will the BUM report the police having to deal with trouble from Rangers fans after they left the grounds? I very much doubt it.
Calling exuberant celebrations a riot makes better news headlines than an amazing and happy story for one of Scotland’s much loved football teams.
Edinburgh will be a happier city for quite a wee while to come thanks to Hibernian winning the Scottish Cup = )
Dunks & G B 21st @ 8.04 / 8.34
I knew a guy who BROKE his leg playing golf .
Yes he did. T off , miss judged somehow & spun round whilst foot remained spiked ! Ouch !
Is it just me, or does the Yoon media give the Queens eleven and their fans the same level of media protection as they do to their Yoon politicians.
pumpkin @ 5.18am
“” And why were the authorities and police so badly prepared that their only response is horse-mounted crowd control?””
From what I saw the police were not badly prepared. There was a long line of policemen across the pitch and behind them a string of mounted police. There is usually a fairly large number of mounted police on duty at large football matches to cover the crowds going to and from the match. When I saw that on TV I thought they had managed to muster an impressive number of policemen both mounted and otherwise in a short time.
Then I remembered it was a football match. It involved Rangers. It involved a team from Edinburgh against a Glasgow team. Taking all that and more into account then the police preparations were probably at the right level although I should imagine they thought their main requirement would be to keep the fans apart outside the stadium and get the Edinburgh contingent safely to their transport home.
The invasion of the pitch by the Jobs fans was to an extent understandable but it could easily and quickly degenerated into something else and seems to have been heading that way when individual actions from both sides are factored in.
Just had a look at the game on the Empires I-player. (finally)
I mentioned Keradine in my earlier post, seems it was somebody called Chris Maglauchlan or something like that.
That’s the beauty of no longer paying for a TV licence, I no longer recognise most of their quality??? reporters.
Sunday 9.25am still no Reporting Shortbread from yesterday on the I-Player.
Methinks sour grapes.
When you see pictures like this,
link to twitter.com
you know it’s well past the time to get the France out of the UK.
All the comments seem to be on the Hibs fans’ combination of exuberance and stupidity, but no-one is really mentioning the sectarian singing which could be heard clearly on the telly. ‘Up to our knees’ and so on.
As there is video evidence of this, I would say there is a case for excluding Sevco from next year’s tournament.
The only way to change this behaviour is to deprive the club of revenue and if their team is not participating, this would stop the bigots from soiling what should be a family occasion.
EU bananas regulation is to keep up production standards. EU country Spain produces bananas.
Police horses drop dung and shift dopes. Horse Derby on foot, drops the ball. A day for the racists. Two for the price of one.
No wonder the terraces are empty.
@ One_Scot
Yea it kind of got hidden in all the hoohaa but Cameron has been visiting all his indy ref celebs again to get them to tell the English to vote remain.
Jamie is right it will be Dan Snow throwing about britnat better together love bombs next,i almost feel sorry for the poor blighters lol
‘Penny Mourdant, an actual government minister, says the EU referendum is an establishment stitch-up.’
The Government stitching up a referendum, Wow, I can’t believe they would think about doing anything like that, would they. I mean, where could they have gotten the idea that they could get away with something like that.
I’m still waiting for the BBC to send a brace of Scottish celebrities and flaky journalists into England on all-expenses paid documentaries, recording interviews with loquacious locals about why they want to leave Europe that subsidies so much of their infrastructure.
In Scotland, It is only Glasgow that needs a row of Police horses and a massive Police presence for a football match.
No wonder the terraces are empty.
News just in from our undercover secret squirrel network spies pretending to be rocks in the yoon lands,two giant tankers of whitewash spotted rolling into Scotland in the middle of the night.
One to cover James Kelly`s gub and the other to hide the police chasing huns across the badlands,sectarian singing there was no sectarian singing just lots of evil indy fans of hibs goading innocent loyalists and beating them up.
SNP bad Labour won it dont you know and the Daily Retard campaigned for it and won it as well so hibs should give them the cup.
Solution for Muirfield.
ScotGov compulsory purchase the land. (only a few hundred blazer bozos will complain)
Build some affordable housing, a sewage treatment plant, anything that would be an improvement.
I watched the match on telly (well last 30 minutes) and saw the pitch invasion. It looked good natured and exuberant to me. There appeared to be handbags at a 100 paces between a handful Hibs and Rangers supporters at the very to fringes of the park but the policing to separate them didn’t look all that hard and the pitch was cleared without police marching people arm up the back style. The police horses just stood there as part of the dividing line.
I think the problem was that they hadn’t taken up the opposition parties ideas about selling alcohol at the ground 😉
Well done Hibs btw. That was a cracking header to win the cup.
As soon as I saw comments appear about the minority sport football & it’s normal hooligan element, I was reminded that there was a pile of ironing to do.
And before the angry one’s reply, don’t forget that only 1% or so of people in Scotland attend or watch football. Which makes its appearance on the national news as “breaking” or even “important” an ongoing mystery.
Just imagine the behaviour of fans & the players’ fake injuries if the pitch had bunkers & bounds of gorse rough. At least they would be easier to identify in their marshmallow coloured jumpers. And there would be less of them because many of the crowds would be men only.
Time for a change in rules?
Theres a periscope clip of a hibs fan(kid) who looked about 10 or so being assaulted from the rear by a big burly bloke, who i guess wasnt a hibs fan.
Link from Stu’s twitter feed
link to periscope.tv
1.5% football supporters.
The opium of the people shopping, sport (football) and TV. Top leisure pursuits.
Make sure yer Pelmets ur hinging straight Eddy Izzard’s oan his way back tae Scotland tae tell us how tae vote again, Iron Bru crates might appear tae,well he is only ah wee fulla.
How can Councillors with a job (40hrs?) do 38 hours council duties = 70hrs When EU/UK legislation states people can only work 48hrs (a week?)
How can MSP – MP work 40hr +? And do a second job – 30/40hrs = 70/80 hrs. When statutory hours are 48hrs (a week?)
OT Looks like Hofer is set to win the presidency in Austria.
Although the FPO itself are currently in opposition in the National Council, the President wields a lot of power, approval or dismissal of Government ministers even dissolving the Government.
Austria uses d’Hondt so it is very difficult for a single party to get an outright majority.
However if Hofer gets in there will likely be scary times ahead.
Delighted for Hibs: magnificent performance and great character shown. Henderson was outstanding.
Had to wipe away a few silent, manly tears when the singing started. I can remember so many great Hibs sides who never got close, as Robert Peffers said.
When my own team spoiled the Queen’s XI party last year and fans invaded our own pitch, the book was thrown at the club and the media had a good froth about it. We still await our punishment, pending investigation of remedial measures taken by the club.
So, my question is: will the SFA take responsibility for the policing and stewarding of the match?
I doubt it.
Hibs Bad, Hibs Very, Very Bad.
Anent Duncan Forbes of Culloden, the family were noted for their fondness for the deoch and at the mothers funeral, attended by hunners, the mourners were so well oiled that the procession arrived at the kirkyard without the coffin.
Gave up on the Queens eleven long ago. Well done the Hibs!!
Ken500, I think we are all familiar with the argument that Thatcher was bad. You don’t need to be Bertrand Russell to understand that we all have different defitions of bad though.
Success doesn’t rest on definitions of good and bad. It rests on achievement in terms of what you set out to accomplish and whether you did it or not.
Ultimately, people and things and everything can only be said to be objectively good or bad as means to ends — ends in themselves are a matter of subjective opinion.
On that basis Thatcher was a success and her policies were good. That’s objective, scientific. It isn’t a matter of opinion and isn’t open to debate.
Doesn’t matter who’s side you’re on in this latest football fiasco it’s bad news for Scotland all round and there’s no getting away from it
This morning Stewart Regan has said there’s a possible ban from European Football on the cards for Hibs and maybe even worse
Forget about who’s to blame, Scotland takes the hit by demonstrating it’s inability to control itself
Still, it justifies the SNP Offensive behaviour act, but still a very small plus compared to what the fallout from this could be
Repeal the Football Act, anyone!
Help ma boab call the men with the straight jackets one has escaped.
Dr Jim, you sound like the Daily Record.
All that matters is that nobody was seriously injured and “Rangers” got beat and will not be in a Europe next year.
That’s it.
mike cassidy at 11.34
Nope. How inconvenient for the Kellyeejit and others were yesterday proceedings.
I am surprised by the reaction. Friendly Rangers supporters (many with their faces covered to avoid getting recognised as wimps)ran onto the park to join the exuberant Hibees in friendly celebration.
Or have I got that wrong?
Just though I’d insert this reminder of what we are all about as posted on O/T by Ian Brotherhood.
We need some big public events over the next few months
link to youtube.com
More people buy tickets for live entertainment (theatre, concerts)
than buy tickets for sporting events.
Britain’s got Talent
Is this what we are reduced to,watching middle aged,over weight men,half pished,battering young spaced out students,for our ‘entertainment’ and streamed live to our livingrooms on a Saturday ?.
The Dave channel should stop broadcasting David Haye ‘fights’,if I wanted to watch this type of comedy/sports/violence,I would have tuned into Sportscene.
What’s the world coming to,bring back Mick McManus.
Racket Beets @ 8.48
Snigger snigger – shouldn’t laugh, but it’s helluva funny! 🙂 🙂
Dr Jim says:
21 May, 2016 at 11:53 pm
@Effigy
There’s no spinning out of this both clubs will be in trouble but Hibs are going to be in serious trouble, it was the other way round this time and it was Rangers players who were attacked and the police have the video evidence for it
No need for us to fall out on this Dr Jim.
I was a Rangers supporter but too, many of the so called fans are just at football because it seems to be the best place to get away with religious bigotry and hooliganism.
Yes the Hibs fans went wild, but after 114 year wait for the cup, a bit of slack can be applied.
I have no doubt Hibs will be paying for the all repairs necessary to put everything back the way it was.
It seems that several hundred Rangers Thugs went on to the pitch too, not to celebrate in wild ecstasy, but to fight because they lost to the better team.
I heard one excuse was that they wanted to save their keeper who was “attacked”. There was a stupid Hibs fan who gave him a minor push and a couple gave him some verbal, but he gets the same stuff while playing and he survives OK
Sport and sportsmanship should go cap in hand.
If its not for you, take up cage fighting away from civilized families.
Sorry – Tackety Beets nae Racket Beets – bl##dy autocorrect! 🙂
@Dr Jim
Totally agree, no matter how well it was handled, and from the TV, it was handled well, it will still be spun as savage Scots.
As we know, there have been much lesser incidents spun for exploitation, so this is no exception.
I thought it was a great lesson in crowd control, with Police and stewards working well to control and calm.
I’m not condoning any of the more nasty aspects, but they were a very tiny minority.
Ahuramazda, to say that Thatcher was a success, scientifically, is nonsense.
Your logic is overwrought with the wrong ‘isms’
To take the scientific angle, you must replace the word objective, with factually.
But then it falls apart, as you have subjectivism as a basis for your final logic.
And anyway, just because certain leaders (of groups of representatives who administer our affairs in our behalf) succeed in ‘their’ aims, doesnt make it a successful outcome for the human race.
Thatcherism, Reagonomics, Capitalism..
to be fair..it depends how far away you look at them from..
Yet they say sectarianism is not a problem. Try reading Hibs and Rangers fan forums today.
louis b argyll
Well said. I would say Thatcher did succeed in her sick aims of dividing society. Making everyone obsessed with ownership of property, or they were a failure.
Opening up Right to Buy, allowing high demand high value housing owned by all of us, to go for negative value leaving your local council saddled with debt, for houses they no longer own. For that alone, she should have been jailed.
Bush and Blair succeeded in their aims, killing thousands in an illegal war. Regime overthrow in the Middle East still going on, under the guise of ‘bad guys’.
Lots of politicians lining their pockets in WM, certainly achieving their aims.
SNP are the only party I know of that lists aims, and then produces their report card,on what they have accomplished.
My only complaint is they don’t do their PR on this well enough.
@AhuraMazda
“Success doesn’t rest on definitions of good and bad. It rests on achievement in terms of what you set out to accomplish and whether you did it or not.”
So the question is what did thatcher set out to accomplish?
Destruction of unions – check
Changing labour to adopt monetarist policies? Well not really, callaghan adopted this before the tories.
Improving the country’s economic situation? – depends which people she sought to improve it for.
If she genuinely believed friedman’s ideas about the economy – which turned out to be detrimental, then perhaps her intentions were good but the policy was a failure
@Valerie
You’re getting it Valerie, the folk defending whatever team they support are being just as ridiculous as each other, none of who’s better than who counts, everybody will have their own opinion on that one
What counts is this event in our supposed to be new enlightened outward looking Scotland was beamed around the world and millions saw it and most of them won’t be on Hibs side or Rangers side but they’ll sure as shooting not be on Scotlands side if they think that’s what it’s like over here
All they’ll see are pictures of Footballers being attacked and mob violence directed at each other and the smashing up of property
This is the sort of thing that goes on in South American countries and as I’ve said it could cost Hibs a European slot, and I don’t know much about how the signing of players or on loan players from other clubs but if I’m one of them do I want to come to a country and sign for a team where I’m likely to be attacked because that’s how the media will show it and the folk who are still shouting “Aye but it wiz them Ma” won’t be heard because as far as the media will be concerned Scotland’s full of football sectarian hooligans
What counts is this event in our supposed to be new enlightened outward looking Scotland was beamed around the world and millions saw it and most of them won’t be on Hibs side or Rangers side but they’ll sure as shooting not be on Scotlands side if they think that’s what it’s like over here
Dozens of nations have football hooligan problems.
You’re way over blowing this but its a predictably angsty thing to do, in a UK that has tory BBC media relentlessly stoking fear and angst.
BBC r4 lunchtime news, far right possible nazi stuff in Austria, far left collapse of Venezuela, all of it lovingly detailed BBC style, extracting every last drop of angst, worry, fear. And then you pile in.
Look at the European football hooligan reality, let alone around the world, then turn down the Scotland’s a shithole stuff a tad, perlease
link to uk.reuters.com
Jim it was only 8 years ago that the fans of a now defunct Glasgow club rioted in Manchester.
Compared to that what happened yesterday was nothing but happiness with one or two handbags on the side.
As for it being a south American thing, Motherwell fans were on the pitch 3 months ago. Last year Aston villa fans ran on before full time. That’s just 2 recent examples.
All the media talk of this taking Scottish football back 30 years is nonsense. If Hibs casuals start throwing petrol bombs at Aberdeen casuals again then I’ll agree.
Dr Jim says:
22 May, 2016 at 1:19 pm
@Valerie
So did you read that Reuters football violence thing Doc? Sweden, Norway, Germany, Russia you name it, all have problems. What is the probable solution? Policing, law and order penalties.
We have all kinds of twerpy gits raging away at Sturgeon for the OBFA, Macwhirter o the Herald’s just the latest but Rueters reports England as
“ENGLAND
England, which suffered so badly with hooliganism in the 1970s and 80s that the problem was sometimes described as “the English disease”, has largely put its house in order.
A concentrated clamp-down by police, involving detailed intelligence operations, helped identify many of the regular trouble-makers and banning orders kept them away from grounds.
As with many other countries, trouble still occurs further away from grounds while there are still regular problems in many lower league games, often unreported as they take place away from the media spotlight.
Generally, however, most grounds are now considered safe destinations and colour-draped fans of opposing teams can usually be seen travelling alongside each other to the game – unthinkable 20 years ago.”
“So the question is what did thatcher set out to accomplish?”
Yes. And we could discuss that, as social scientists have been all over the world for the last 25 years.
The Thatcher years coincided with historic developments in technology and pile of other things that all contributed to making the 80s a period of dramatic change and I would argue progress.
What nobody can dispute, I would say, is that Britain went into the 80s in a terrible and depressed state and went into the 90s full of vigour in the vanguard of the IT revolution.
When you compare the 1970s with the 1990s you are really comparing two different worlds. The reason they were so different was in large part down to the success of Thatcher.
Just watched the video of the Hibees singing Sunshine on Leith and was shocked and dimayed by the astonishing unneccesary and confrontational police presence.
That, boys and girls, is what a Police State looks like.
So it´s come to this eh?
Not that interested in football, but my son said it looked like the police had things in control yesterday, were people hurt and hospitalised? Hope not.
It would be very easy to false flag this match, and others, it just takes one or two plants, not excusing any idiots, but the way it’s being reported to the outside world, barbarians in Scotland need keeping in check. Just as well UKok have Scotland on a tight leash eh. Grrrrrrrrrr.
With regard to the policing at the Cup Final, I thought it strange that the police who entered the field set out for the large contingency of Hibs fans in order to keep them away from the smaller group of Rangers fans on the park.
I know I’m not a security expert or a police chief, but why didn’t they focus on removing the smaller number of Rangers fans from the field?
Hibs fans were generally elated and in their many thousands and who wanted to be closer for the cup presentation.
The Rangers fans were angry at losing, only wanted on the field to fight with opposing supporters, and had no reason to wait for the cup presentation.
Should the police explain why they took this action?
One more try,
I don’t give a monkeys who wins or loses or who’s more right or who’s more wrong, what I think doesn’t count, it’s what it will be made into and how it looks and those who are partisan one way or another wont count either and can shout about it as loud as they want it will make no difference to what’s going to happen
If there’s a set of rules in place for a thing you follow them or lobby to change them what you don’t do is break them and then try to justify the breaking of those rules as to somehow say they don’t apply to you because “Ye didnae mean it bad”
If football were banned altogether tomorrow I wouldn’t lose a blink of sleep, I just don’t care, but that’s my personal opinion
What isn’t my personal opinion is the law, if you break it you get done, you can’t argue I only broke it a wee bit and I’m better than somebody else so it’s different for me
I enjoy watching a game of football on the telly but you’d have to pay ME to actually go to one because of this stuff
I won’t comment further on this topic, the bias from all sides is a complete and utter turn off in what I’d always hoped was a fairly balanced and sensible forum, on the politics we mostly all agree but it seems the pervasiveness of the Scotland effect is as strong as the force with some
I can’t stand sectarianism or religious intolerance of any kind or the use of it, the stupidity of it sickens me along with the people who practice it and call it revenge or justice for being intolerant of others and then defend their position with even more of it
Count me out
Congratulations to Hibs. The pitch invasion? Well, that’s the SNP’s fault, obviously.
Just wondering, but why did the Rangers immediately put out an official, inflammatory blanket statement about the shocking behaviour of ‘Hibs fans’?
And why did Reagan of the SFA immediately do the same?
Were these statements synchronised?
And even if they weren’t, why are the providers of these statements so sure that those who caused the trouble were genuine ‘Hibs fans’?
Have they never considered that some of them, at least, might have been thugs from right-wing movements flown in from anywhere in the UK to cause trouble? Hasn’t that happened before? Couldn’t some of the trouble be nothing to do with ‘Hibs fans’?
Why were the makers of these statements – the two R’s, the Rangers and the Reagan – so sure of themselves, without considering, even for a second, various other possibilities and scenarios?
And was it responsible of them to make such immediate, inflammatory, delberately provocative and totally one-sided statements? Were they simply ‘creating a narrative’ that it will be difficult to change, if proper investigations show – as they are likely to do – that what happened was a whole lt more complicated than their simplisitic interpretations suggest?
Was it diversionary tactics, prejudging what any independent enquiry might uncover? Was the aim to get Hibs banned from European participation as Cup-winners next season, and allow The Rangers in as their replacement by default? Or was the aim to prevent any investigation of the sectarian singing from the side of the ground allotted as the the Rangers end during the match?
Whatever the case, the kneejerk reaction seemed to me injudicious, not to say suspicious. As did the moral outrage from Reagan. I seem to remember the way he and his friend(s) ducked and dived to avoid applying the rules when Rangers FC went bankrupt. Some people get involved in things here which are somewhet foreign to them without having the slightest clue about what they are meddling in, and how dangerous it is.
And I am not just talking about Cameron-led Tories giving a nod and a wink to the OO.
I make these comments after doing something I haven’t done for years, and of which I would normally be thoroughly ashamed. Yes, I looked at the Daily Record website, to see how they covered the story. There you find a clip of how Hibs fans invaded the pitch etc. etc. and it is very strange. It shows the Hibs fans coming on behind the goal, the mounted police immediately lining up to hem them in, and no real trouble in sight. Then it pans to the other end of the ground and there are some people coming over on to the pitch. Some police are around but they are not numerous, not well organised and they don’t seem to do anything to stop it.
The camera pans back and forth a couple of times to both ends, but the sequence does not make sense. It looks as if it has been interfered with. At one point there is no one at all on the pitch from the The Rangers end, yet there had been previously. It does not tie up.
The Record also gives still pictures of some vicious looking thugs having a go at people, or of people squaring up to each other. As far as I can see none of them are wearing Hibs colours – there is nothing to demonstrate that they are ‘Hibs fans’ – no green and white anywhere. But they do look like real thugs. You might even say, professional thugs, who just want a fight.
I don’t support Hibs, or Rangers … or Celtic for that matter. Maybe I have this all wrong – if so, do let me know. I am ready to be corrected on it.
Yes. I’m rather puzzled by the sequence of events and the reporting.
wull, Its not a big deal.
SNP’s Stewart Hosie to quit as deputy leader
AhuraMazda
Can nobody rid us of this virulent Thatcher priest??
Help ma’boab, can he be real!
Hosie to step down as SNP’s deputy leader 🙁
link to archive.is
Opportunity Knox for Russell at the golf… 🙂
Convinced he is sensibledave, seriously it’s the exact same mo.
Heed are you serious has Stewart Hosie resigned?
OT
I was the 1980 Cup Final with friends. I think it was 1980, the memory is going. That one event and its aftermath stopped me going to any game involving the Old Firm again. In fact it stopped me being anywhere either of those two teams were playing thereafter.
On one occasion I forgot though. On that occasion following a Rangers v Aberdeen game, yet another inflammatory kind of game at Pittodrie, where the train journey from Aberdeen to Inverness was a nightmare. Delays at Dyce where Police arrested several so called football supporters. It didn’t end there though as so called supporters spilled from the train at Inverurie and started fighting there. There were further delays at Elgin where one terrified individual locked themselves in the toilet.
I know that a great many folk are glad to see Rangers so called back in the top flight, well I am not one of those as it appears they continue to attract knuckle dragging scum!
Now the possibility of the Old Firm playing in the ahem English League has been raised again with the possible reorganisation of their leagues to admit more teams. Well I kind of hope they go honestly but the English aren’t as daft to have them or put up with them either I think. I suppose yesterdays game and the Yoon Media in Scotland doing its best to inflame the situation afterwards will have put an end to that possibility though.
I’m really very disappointed about Stewart Hosie resigning, the first comment on that Herald article states when the person becomes the story they have to go. Then where are all the other resignations from Cameron, for fucking dead pig’s, Davidson for irregularities regarding postal votes during the referendum, Mathieson for getting caught for having sex in a car with a guy?
These bastards get away with everyone…Stewart gets grassed on by a wumin whose mooth is bigger than her ego and he resigns.
Hypocritical bastards, the media are the judge jury and hangman…it’s they who decide who’s getting it. Fucking shower of sleazy bastards wi mair skeletons in their cupboards than the entire population put the gither.
Scunnered.
Heed are you serious has Stewart Hosie resigned?
Front page of rancid The Graun so it must be true. Keep in mind that crew alone spend a great deal of energy burying their scotland region news, just weather, holidays and SNP bad. SNP have got to be whiter than white with our imperial master baiters.
“Stewart Hosie to step down as deputy SNP leader after private life revelations
Hosie says he will not stand for re-election after the revelation of his affair with a journalist and the break-up of his marriage”
@AhuraMazda. Your belief that there was a culture of “vigour” and “progress” in Britain after the 1980s will be a mystery to many.
I suppose it depends on which part part of Thatcher’s Britain you reside in.
Thatcher’s “success” coincided with a North Sea bonanza, frittered away by an establishment unable to balance it’s books. Ever.
As our present penury so well demonstrates.
The late, great Ian “Dan” Archer referred to Rangers supporters as: “A permanent embarrassment and occasional disgrace”.
Here is why:
1909 Riot after 1909 Scottish Cup final – Celtic v Rangers
1961 Riot after 1961 European Cup-Winners Cup semi-final: Wolverhampton Wanderers v Rangers
1961 Riot after European Cup-Winners Cup final, first leg: Rangers v Fiorentina
1969 Riot during UEFA Cup semi-final – Newcastle United v Rangers
1972 Riot after European Cup-Winners Cup final in Barcelona – Moscow Dynamo v Rangers
1976 Riot during friendly – Aston Villa v Rangers; game abandoned
1980 Riot after Scottish Cup Final at Hampden – Celtic v Rangers
1989 Riot before UEFA Cup tie – Shelbourne v Rangers, in Birkinhead
2008 Riot after EUFA Cup Final – Zenit St Petersborg v Rangers in Manchester
2016 Pitch invasion and fighting after Scottish Cup Final – Hibernian v Rangers, at Hampden
I am not saying all these incidents were the fault of Rangers fans, but, there is but a single common thread to all these instances of football fan misbehaviour, over 107 years.
AhuraMazda says:
When you compare the 1970s with the 1990s you are really comparing two different worlds. The reason they were so different was in large part down to the success of Thatcher.
What success ?
The UK had a terrible decade.
The Thatcher years were terrible for employment and industry – a rising technological tide lifts all boats – and compared to the European nations the UK slipped backwards.
So again I would ask what success ? a media impression you have of decades past or do you have any numbers to back up your trolling.
The establishment (SFA) will not be happy that Rangers are not in Europe next season. If there is any way they can fix that, they will. Hibs were not meant to spoil the party, hence the OTT outrage at the pitch invasion. Could something be engineered to allow Rangers in Europe next season?
Watch out, Hibs!
@Socrates MacSporran
I must take issue with one of those events, namely what happened in Barcelona. This was grossly and unfairly reported as a Riot by the biased Yoon Media. It was actually a an alliance of Rangers Supporters and Catalan Nationals getting stuck into Franco’s neo Fascist thugs! Oh the irony!
Interesting to see how many times and in how may ways the ‘newspapers’ can say Stewart Hosie is stepping down, and for how many weeks they can keep it going.
Socrates I think you missed a few riots rangers were involved in during the Anglo Scottish cup.
Newcastle, Manchester United and Aston Villa spring to mind.
It’s a pity Hosie felt the need to step down as Deputy, but it helps to illustrate that when anything ‘untoward’ happens involving the SNP, the reaction is to act, timeously (ie like the other two MPs who immediately gave up the Whip whilst investigations take place). Compare with Carbuncle!
Other parties have done equally bad, and even worse, things – and, so, we can still continue to bring up their behaviour at every opportunity!!! At least the SNP behave in a responsible manner.
@K1
I think he had to go. Both MPs’ affairs led to separation, and both had victims – the wives. I wouldn’t want either of them as my MP. They showed they have no “moral fibre”, nor regard for their partners.
yesindyref2 says:
They showed they have no “moral fibre”, nor regard for their partners.
I dont select doctors or engineers based upon who they sleep with, and I dont select public servants on that basis either.
Just saying.
sensibledave loves Wings but he couldn’t fully participate because his pompous up himself ‘colours’ kept getting in the way of what he really wanted, which was to be part of this ‘group’.
So he took himself off and made up a new obnoxious persona: Angrimanyu, but it kept slipping through the facade, who he really is. So he took himself off and made up a new obnoxious persona: Neoconnat, but it kept slipping through the facade, who he really is. So he took himself off and made up a new obnoxious persona: AhuraMazda but it keeps slipping through the facade, who he really is. So he may well take himself off and make up a new obnoxious persona.
NCN admitted he’s never voted in any Scottish elections, and I’m pretty sure neither has AhuraMazda as they are one and the same. Y’see he doesn’t live in Scotland, but has a terrible need to be ‘Scottish’. He’s no ‘real’ friends’ and that’s okay if he was honest about any of this. Cause we’re a very welcoming lot, but it’s his rank dishonest pompous, condescending, obnoxious and patronising pish that is preventing any ‘real’ connection with anyone on here, because it’s so at odds with the general outlook of plain ‘humanity’ and ‘compassion’ that pervades Wings btl.
And until he realises that that is a core issue, no matter what he spouts ‘politically’ (mainly all things Tory worshiping) which is just as yesindyref2 outlined a bit further up (steal, repeat and rinse)…he will never be welcome on here as a serious contributor to the btl debates regardless of subject.
It’s not at all complicated. But people keeps feeding his strange wee desperate ego and the insufferable fool feeds off that attention, and round and round we all go every thread infected by his relentless and obnoxious persona capitalising on ‘winding’ people up with his very sensibldave Tory outlook.
End.
To be fair K1 we SNP supporters expect better from our representatives and Stuart Hosie has let us down as well as his family, party etc.
SNP politicians should take note that any misbehaviours will be under scrutiny from the unionist press more than any unionist politician.
They have to be squeaky clean and whiter than white.
Red and blue toryboy’s move in-
Scott Arthur ?@DrScottThinks 1h1 hour ago
Stewart Hosie is resigning to spend less time with his family.
euan mccolm Retweeted
Jamie Ross ?@JamieRoss7 13m13 minutes ago
SNP source points out Hosie was never announced by them as leader of the independence drive. It was all based on a report in The National.
Its The National again. Shows how easy it is to misinform us too.
Well they can’t be ‘squeaky clean’ they are human and fall for all sorts of things being human. I don’t feel any ‘moral’ outrage about this…who am I to judge?
Of course politically speaking I understand the ‘ground’ we are on, but this my friends is and was a ‘set up’ from beginning to end.
Don’t fall for the faux moral outrage generated by ‘our’ MSM on this, you are just feeding into their narrative when you go along with this too.
He’s not a bad person, just a very naughty boy who was ‘fingered’. (smirk) The press did the rest, but does anyone seriously believe that everyone else in Westminster who are having affairs that haven’t been outed in this way aren’t being blackmailed by their ‘whips’ etc to keep them in line?
This shows the SNP for the ‘grown up’ party they are, at least he’s still an honest man in this regard, he resigned! I won’t be falling intae the trap of condemning Stewart or Angus…fucksake people they were set up…a 2 for 1 job if ever there was! one!
@Anagach
If they had had “open marriages”, infidelity by agreement, then it’s their own business. But it’s obvious they didn’t, so there was a victim of their sleeping with someone else – their wives. I regard that as abuse. Knowingly causing pain and suffering to someone else, someone who they’re supposed to be close to, to care about. That’s my take. It’s not their morals I care about, it’s their victims.
@ K1 4.35pm. I could,nt have put it better myself,he,s not on this site to offer any goodwill, but to cause as much disruption amoungst Wingers & yet some more notable Wingers insist on replying to his comments to the dismay of other Wingers.
WISE UP WINGERS I dont need to be lectured by ah TWAT, extolling the virtues of Thatcher who had’nt a virtuous bone in her body.
Dont feed the TROLL.
Hmm, not so sure Stuart Hosie should have resigned. The yoons are corrupt as hell, with some who take drugs, visit prostitutes, have affairs and well, do they usually resign? Should the SNP have been more supportive, more brazen, told the establishment to get lost?
Who was this journalist, is she a plant? It all stinks to high heaven quite frankly. Or maybe I just watch too many episodes of ‘Chuck’. Would put nowt past the establishment however, they have activated their witch hunt tactics since the SNP won so many seats at the GE, they didn’t like that result one tiny bit.
Await more taking down of our SNP MPs, so easy for MI5 or whoever they are.
Hosie’s fate was sealed when he was appointed to head up the SNPs summer campaign to build support for Indy. The Yoon Press and Media was always going to go for him. Although there now seems to be some doubt about his role in that Summer Campaign.
I am not going to condemn any man or woman who fails to live up to certain standards in their personal lives which are nobodies business. As long as it doesn’t involve children, deid pigs and cocaine that is.
There is a moral to this tale though and that is don’t trust any professional journalist or media hack. Least of all one employed by the Yoon Press and Media. It is a timely reminder.
Moral high ground looks pretty crowded tonight. Having spent many years marriage counselling , nothing about relationships causes any surprises. Couples fall in love ,couples fall out of love. Some have affairs through loneliness or hurt,or to feel good about themselves again. No winners, just people who have to live with all the consequences which ensue when it is discovered.
Give them all a break, because this is taking place in full view of the media. They have troubles enough without Wingers adding to it. I shall write no more on the subject.
In that case yesindyref2 when they are processing new members who may well rise up through the ranks into positions of ‘prominence’ or ‘power’ should this question be raised in the interviewing process:
Have you at any time ‘cheated’ on your partner/spouse? (honey trapped or otherwise, just to include all possibilities ye understand).
As some litmus test of ‘morality’.
Very rarely do people ‘cheat’ because at their core they are ‘immoral’. So I completely disagree that this ‘signifies’ a lack of ‘moral core’. It signifies two things: she must have been quite the seductress and he must’ve been ‘vulnerable’ at some point, and yes I do think there is ‘vulnerability’ if you are in a ‘powerful’ position. Our ego’s are driven to succeed and to succeed in politics you have to have that strength of self belief in the first place (rightly or wrongly) to push yourself to the ‘high’ point of your chosen route.
I do not believe he set out to hurt his family and it is quite stunning insensitivity/naivety to believe such a ‘motivation’ was existent in his actions. There is no way he ‘meant’ this to happen. No one means it to happen if by all other standards of general conduct they have acted in accordance with their marriage vows.
You are making out one ‘mistake’ maketh the man? Abuse is too strong a word to be bandying about in relation to this affair.
@K1
Yes, the others should have gone from their respective party posts and more than likely many others besides. Carmichael anyone?
And no, he’s done nothing illegal.
That’s the difference though between an SNP representation and the rest. The slightest hint of trouble for the party, the movement or the Scottish government and they are seen to act. Like yourself, I could care less about Mr Hosie’s private life. I don’t think it should matter a damn except where it compromises or abuses public office, which was not the case in this instance.
That’s not what has been, or will continue to be sold through the press though and so… enough to say I’m not surprised.
What the other parties do in such situations is up to them. Though every time I clock Cameron’s smug kisser, I have an uncanny urge to call animal welfare.
killie fans on the park today celebrating staying in the premier league
see the difference there is no falkirk fans on the pitch because they had nothing to celebrate nor did they want to play the victum card
Re. Stewart Hosie – I think there are 2 types of people – bad people and good people who just make a really bad mistake/choice. The trick is to learn from the mistake and not repeat it. Indeed, if we’re bring honest, I would suspect there’s very few of us who havn’t said or done something they havn’t deeply regretted later and so are really not in a position to pass moral judgement on other people.
@K1
They’ve both separated so that kind of shows the wives knew nothing about it, it was a shock. As I said it’s not about “morals”, “moral fibre” is a different thing (“strength of character, resolution, fortitude, resolve, backbone, spine, mettle, firmness of purpose, toughness of spirit”).
Of course they didn’t set about deliberately trying to hurt their partners, but they did. As for the “seductress”, the moment I went out with my wedding ring on after getting married at the age of 36, I was mobbed by females. I should hae got myself a fake wedding ring when I was single. But it takes two to tango.
I was utilising the term ‘moral core’ as synonymous with ‘moral fibre’ yesIR2. I stand by my point you cannot seriously judge someone’s ‘core’ or ‘fibre’ on the basis of having an affair.
People are not saints, just cause you conflate the two doesn’t mean the rest of do…
I couldn’t possibly characterise someone having an affair as ‘abusive’. Those are your ‘standards’ and good for you for living up to them. You are still in no position to ‘judge’ Stewart Hosie’s character because he ‘fails’ on one of your ‘standards’.
He was specifically targeted. None of us knows ‘how’ we would respond in that scenario, cause none of us know what the future is and because life isn’t a fairytale story where everyone lives ‘happily ever after’.
Don’t get dizzy lookin’ doon Mr nice guy. 😉
mumsyhugs says:
22 May, 2016 at 5:22 pm
I think there are 2 types of people – bad people and good people who just make a really bad mistake/choice.
Good people take it on the chin and accept full responsibility for their mistakes, and bad people carry on regardless as if nothing happened, blaming everyone else but themselves. Could be Hosie and Carmichael, but you decide which is which. 🙂
Hosie has done a great job for the SNP over they years, but he has done the right thing by falling on his sword. The honourable actions of SNP politicians who make mistakes just shows up very clearly the behaviour of their yoon counterparts as truly despicable.
It is worth noting that most of us are good people at times and bad people at times. It takes a really strong character to do the right thing consistently, and there are times when temptation affects the best of us. If great kings, emperors and presidents can fall then the rest of us are not immune. We have all been there I think.
Ian Brotherhood @3.10pm, 21-5-2016
Thanks for that, Robin Williams can never be replaced.
A Genius.
Try and get a look at Robin Williams live at the MET from years ago, we have it on Video, one of the funniest comedians ever.
It’s not about morals K1, if it was done with greement then it’s entirely up to them. I don’t care if single MPs live in brothels, it’s their business, or if married one are allowed to by their wives likewise.
But this is deceit and betrayal. If they wanted to have affairs they shouldn’t have got married, or should have honestly separated first.
So yes, they were both weak. They had no strength of character, resolution, fortitude, resolve, backbone, spine, mettle, firmness of purpose, or toughness of spirit. Not in relation to the “seductress” (home-wrecker) anyway.
yesindyref2 says:
If they had had “open marriages”, infidelity by agreement, then it’s their own business.
You dont know the basis of their relationship, or how its changed over the decades. And neither should you or I be privy to it.
They can sleep with who they want as long as its legal (no animals, no children, no abuse, no dead or combination thereof). I dont expect my employer to judge my work based upon my private life, and I dont judge anyone else on that basis – unless they break the law.
I find this kind of anglo-saxon hang up on sex and relationships deeply unhealthy.
@Luigi
Yeah, I agree, none of us are perfect. But the actual act of betrayal shouldn’t be defended just because he’s an SNP MP.
Breaking News:
Stewart Hosie resigns: link to wp.me
It does seem that Hosie is a bit shell shocked by the fallout of revelations about his private life. Maybe he has met the love of his life, perhaps he should have told his wife sooner? Whatever, it is all being portrayed as a bit tawdry and his private life is taking centre stage and distracting from his work.
If I am honest I was a bit surprised by the choice of him to lead the summer campaign. He often comes across as a bit abrasive and I cannot see him persuading soft No voters. He might be very able with regards to policy and strategy but as a focus of a new Indy campaign, I would prefer someone else.
I think a number of people should be high profile in the campaign like Tommy Sheppard, who is a persuasive speaker and has lived a bit or Joanna Cherry who is articulate and intellectual. Mhairi Black as well. Jeanne Freeman seems universally respected and knows the political world.
However, I think a thorough and honest appraisal of why the NO vote won is the first and most important task.
As to deputy leader, who knows.
As expected, the usual suspects attack views that they fail to understand.
Thatcher was successful in terms of what she set out to achieve. She got runaway inflation under control, she weakened the Unions, she opened up huge areas of the British economy up to the private sector, and she deregulated banking and finance.
I’m not saying any of those things resulted in desirable outcomes, or that I agree or disagree with them as goals, but she set those objectives out and achieved them. Nobody can argue with that.
She was definitely bad for Scotland. Britain is bad for Scotland though, economically speaking, and has been for at least 100 years, so it seems silly to single out Thatcher. She was particularly bad for manufacturing but with the benefit of hindsight we can see now more clearly than ever than Britain’s manufacturing industries were bound to struggle in the face of competition from China and a 100 other post-cold war countries.
Unintended consequences of Thatcher, externalities, like the gap between rich and poor and the creation of what looks like a permanent underclass, seem to be things that we and so many other countries are willing to put up with. Nobody even discusses that stuff never mind tries to fix it. It’s as if we have created a new third world right here at home.
For what it’s worth, I think the world economy right now is crisis but not because of shortages, quite the opposite. It looks to me like there are too many countries competing to produce and supply and there isn’t enough demand. It seems obvious to me that we would all prefer to be key producers and exporters rather than consumers and importers, given the choice
The Great Depression, as I understand it, had the same problem at its core. The response then to over-supply and intense competition was protectionism (and that’s arguably what caused the war with Japan, if not Germany too). It looks like history is repeating with the constant threats to industries like steel and ship building and the pressure on the EU.
@Anagach
I think we do know “the basis of their relationship”. When the wives found out about it, it led to separations. So not only did the wives not know about it before, they didn’t accept it. And it’s not about the “sex”, it’s about the betrayal of trust in a relationship.
Anyway, I’m out.
@ScottishPsyche
All good choices. Whenever I was watching Parliament Live as they were trooping in and out for divisions, you could see Tommy Sheppard stopping on his way out, having a blether with I don’t know, not SNP, so Labour, Conservative, LibDem.
That’s what it needs, people who can actually talk to others rather than shout at them.
Bob Mack at 5.02
Well said.
As a matter of interest if I remember correctly on of these gents wives had an affair which came to light
Oh yesIR2 deceit, betrayal, fortitude et al are all based on ‘morality’ you hold these characteristics/actions in terms of ‘judging the ‘character of a person to decide whether they fit into your worldview as either a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ person., These traits denote either high ‘value’ or ‘non value’ or ‘low value’. Betrayal is a ‘bad’ thing, fortitude is a ‘good’ thing etc etc.
You used the word ‘abuse’ to describe your ‘take’ on this. This is a ‘bad’ thing (abuse) in your mind, ergo you are making moral judgements here.
People don’t get married ‘wanting’ or ‘not wanting’ to have affairs YesIR2?
Have you ever been cheated on or known someone who has either been cheated on or has been the ‘cheater’?
Am leaving the Lecture Theater for a wee while but I,ll be back.
@K1
As I posted in reply to Anganach, I’m out (on that subject).
What I have seen around is what seems to me to be a knee-jerk defence of anything SNP, so because it’s a couple of SNP MPs then it’s OK, or excusable, or human nature. Not just here but in other forums. So I post to bring a balance into it, otherwise, same as for when it happens with Labour / Tory / LibDem, I wouldn’a have commented.
I’ll leave a question tae think about. What would have been the reaction if it was some dreaded or even hated Labour or Tory MP or MSP? Or their brother?
deeply disappointed that he has resigned – his private life is up to him and his wife.
I do believe that he was |honey trapped” and gave that oral pig fucker an opportunity to pretend his off the cuff remarks were unrehearsed – for that Messrs Hosie and McNeil I cannot forgive you.
For the rest, the media can make a meal of something or choose to hide it under the increasingly lumpy carpet should their owners so dictate – and they are increasingly avoided and despised in Scotland.
OT Ronnie did you and Mitchell have an excellent trip and meet and chat with many?
I see that Me Hosie is not standing for re-election at Deputy Leader. He has not resigned.
I don’t feel moral outrage either K1, but I do feel that we will get let down if the SNP politicians give the unionist press the headlines they so crave.
Not everyone in the street thinks the same as we do on this site.
It is giving the press all the excuse to write all the wrong headlines about the SNP I despair at.
If you are asking me that question specifically yesIR2 then I would reply in like terms, I don’t tend to go with those ‘moral’ crusades in terms of people’s private lives. Except to make the important distinction that others have made in terms of any illegality and the genuine moral outrage that peadophillia engenders. Barring those terms whatever consenting adults indulge in is entirely up to them.
I’ve also said nothing about them being in the SNP, I’m not a member yesIR2 and can’t speak to what you describe as your other experiences btl on this matter. Was merely responding from a personal interest in what you had stated and was talking plainly from a debating perspective. I think it is very interesting to challenge ‘morality’ based stuff which more often than not reveals and ‘brings up’ people’s own personal stuff surrounding our judgements on these of matters.
I just thought your ‘abuse’ term was over the top and it didn’t provide balance it just made me want to question you more on your own outlook.
I’ve lived a life yesIR2 and have been on the receiving end and so have many others I know, and the other end too. I’m not a high ranking politician though and in this instance this particular politician has not indulged in any reprehensible behaviour….
To err is human…
Oh as for ma brother’s…let me tell you a story or ten… 😉
It seems it’s all right to go totally O/T by now…
I learned about the ugliness at the Scottish football cup final through this site and its tweets (it wasn’t widely reported on the MSM). Made me think of a big clash international sporting event between big rivals with actual bad national history…
OK, I know almost no Wings readers know anything about ice hockey, so let me explain. Every year they play the World Championships. Canada and the USA might not send their best team possible, and some other countries, such as mine, might still have some of their best players tied up in the NHL finals, but apart from North America, the world’s ice hockey playing countries consider this event important and prestigious. The Russians certainly do. As Soviet Union, they’ve won more World Championships than any other country. I think Canada comes second. My country has only won two.
This year, the World Champs are held in Russia, St. Peterburgh and Moscow. Russians are ice hockey mad, love their country, though not necessarily their team. Yesterday Finland beat Russia 3-1 in the semi-final. What did the Russian fans do to the Finnish fans in the outdoor big screen viewing areas and on the streets? Patted them on the back. Hugged. Well done, little brother/tshuna/finlandiyaskayas.
It should be pointed out that our countries do not have a peaceful history and there has always been a big cultural divide along the Finnish-Russian border. The important thing is that most ordinary Russians and Finns can get above politics and be friends.
For decades, our dearest enemy in international ice hockey was Sweden’s Tre Kronor. Finland are the Lions, after our national coat of arms. A lion rampant, standing on an eastern-type scimitar and wielding a straight western-type sword, back turned to the east.
Now the Russians hockey fans want to name us, the Lions, their dearest enemy! Wow, Sweden and Russia both are vying for that honour. 😀 Finnish ice hockey might be doing something right. If Finland wins, we’d hold the U18, U20 and mens’s title all in the same year, something no country has ever done. But I’m not counting my chickens, Canada will want revenge for their 0-4 loss in the group stage.
Russia just played for bronze against the USA and demolished them 7-2. Finland beat both teams (and their final opponent Canada) in the group stage. In fact, Finland hasn’t lost a match.
Later tonight we’ll face Canada for the Championship. Finland beat Canada 4-0 in the group stage, but now the Canucks know how we play, and have a bit of a revenge feeling, so I’m a bit scared… excited… scared… (will be sitting on the edge of me seat and biting me nails)
Anyway, I guess my point was about nationalism/bigotry/something/whatever… If mad Russian ice hockey fans can be friendly and nice to mad Finnish ice hockey fans after the Finnish team dumped their Russian team out of the final… Are Scots somehow inherently worse? Or is it that MSM just amplify the worst aspects of Scottish football rivalrly and fanaticism to feed the general narrative of stupidity and division. Divide and rule.
Sports rivarly doesn’t have to be divisive or violent or ugly. Finland beat Russia in Moscow to reach the final, and Muscovites are mostly congratulating and cheering the Finns.
Jävlar, Swedish sports journous/commentators are saying the Swedes ought to learn from the Finns, how to breed winning ice hockey players (Finland’s top scorer just turned 18, got special dispensation to not wear the “gage” but just the visor)
Tonight’s final. Finland has won every match. The opponents Canada (home of ice hockey) have lost only one – to Finland.
I’d say, about 2.5 to 3 million of the 5.6 Finns will be watching the final tonight. We don’t hate the Canucks but we want to show them the Finnish way to play hockey can be a winner.
I don’t know how to translate this to Scottish sporting things. Football? Rugby? Ice hockey is the only big professional sport in my country. I’m an IFK fan and once got into an ugly situation with fans of the other local team. Nothing like Old Firm. IFK/Jokers don’t define our lives. And the Jokers (the money team) have left the Finnish league to play in the more lucrative Russian KHL league. The team, or rather, its owner from the mid 1990s brought in the idea of money and profit and corporate shit to Finnish ice hockey. Truly commercialised it.
Anyway, got to go. The final is starting! (Think of the national importance of Scotland playing in the football Euro or World final, you get the feeling. I’m totally nervous and wrecked!
I know alexicon, not disputing that but they will manufacture outrage on anything the SNP do, it’s not working, a million souls have awakened and we are not going back to sleep. So it’s right that we talk about this openly as adults and not fall for the ‘manufactured outrage’ ourselves on here.
I too think it was a honey trap. I too agree naivety has played a part here. But they aren’t saints, it’s just the MSM will both barrel it for the establishment in an attempt to reduce SNP support. It will not deter me and nor do I suspect anyone else committed to our cause of an Independent Scotland.
I know shite when I smell it. We have to keep the faith that others also have good noses. 😉
@K1
It always crosses the line when a poster makes comments or insinuations about another poster’s life, about which he or she knows nothing. If people want to volunteer personal information, that’s up to them. I did think better of you.
But it’s not about the “moral crusade”, it’s about deceit and lies, so yes, from the recent reactions of the wives it’s clear they didn’t tell the truth to their wives when they were betraying them. That’s a form of mental abuse.
Anyway, I’m finally OUT.
I see that I have the opportunity, yet again, to watch another England National Football match on TV.
It is only an uninteresting friendly match against Turkey,
probably lined up by Westminster so that the commentator can
chuck in a few scaremongering facts about them wanting to join the EU and how 10’s of millions will arrive hear and
abuse our infrastructure.
I don’t seem able to watch any important Scotland matches, but maybe we are being encouraged to just follow our colonial masters?
The game will be followed by a tribute to Alf Ramsey’s team of 1966. Really!
Just watched the EBC news and we now have the head of Tory NHS England jumping on the scaremongering bandwagon, our friendly ASDA chief has keep himself available since the Scottish referendum and is re-launching his absurd claim the Food costs will shoot up if we dare to leave the EU.
Asda are part of Walmart, the large American Trading Group. Could I enquire why Walmart’s prices are lower in the US than they are in the UK, as after all the Yanks are not in the EU?
EBC also advised of them having a “Reality Check” web site where you can read their opinion on any claims made regarding the EU referendum. I burst out Laughing!
I’m still of the opinion that it’s none of my business what ANY politician gets up to. This was a honeytrap and both men should’ve been a bit more savvy! I will not let their stupid actions make me change my mind about Independence or voting for the SNP…And to be honest I would vote Hosie again for deputy leader…makes no difference to me what he gets up to in private…However a journalist with an agenda, that’s surely something that should’ve had alarm bells clanging.
Feel very sad that both families are going thru this heartbreaking time. It’s now time for us on here to lay it to rest, who among us is squeaky clean…like Ruby and Petra, I have “lived” a life and not all of it makes me proud…So leave it alone now eh!
‘It always crosses the line when a poster makes comments or insinuations about another poster’s life, about which he or she knows nothing. If people want to volunteer personal information, that’s up to them. I did think better of you’
Whit?
I did no such thing.
I find that fascinating yesIR2, it is you who have been making ‘comments’ and ‘insinuations’ about Stewart Hosie’s life throughout this exchange on here about ‘which you know nothing’.
But you now accuse me of this?
You know nothing about his wife or Angus’s wife, you know nothing about this situation other than what you have read in the Herald or elsewhere and look how quickly and keen you are to tar this situation as ‘abusive’. You actually now need to go have a wee look at your issue here. If I ‘inadvertently’ stumbled ontae yer toes yesIR2, it was just that ‘inadvertent’ but clearly a ‘sore spot’ is your ‘sore spot’ not mine for accidentally treading on an old ‘sore spot’?
Stop saying you’re ‘out’, you want to be but can’t help yersel’.
Kindly re read what I actually wrote and not ‘what you think’ I wrote. Context man, context.
I would like you to take a look at some Tory Party Scandals
via the Link below, but be warned if you are about to eat, it includes the Affair of John Major and Edwina Currie.
Both married and performing in a Tax payer funded apartment.
Punished by becoming an incompetent Prime Minister and the
other a Cabinet Minister shut down egg production.
link to londonlovesbusiness.com
What utter drivel from the whiter than white brigade.
Stuart Hosie has not let me down! His personal life is none of my business and as long as he fights for Independance, puts his constituents and Scotland first I will always support him.
His family should be left alone to sort out their personal life. The site polis should be putting their energy into fighting the real enemy, Wesminster and its supporters
WOW just check the lies on this statment by the rangers
link to rangers.co.uk
Regarding Stewart Hosie,I don’t recall Yoon journalists or any politician stating that Nigel Griffiths was unsuitable to lead the Labour Leave campaign after his extra marital affair.
“Pictures show his ‘secret lover’ dressed in stockings and suspenders next to a door with a tell-tale key tag marked ‘POW’ – Palace of Westminster. ”
“The MP’s outrageous behaviour on November 11—the 90th anniversary of the signing of the First World War armistice—was a blatant breach of the strict Parliamentary Code of Conduct. ”
link to dailymail.co.uk
Regarding Pete Wishart asking the Met to investigate Tory 2015 General election expenses, my Labour sources tell me that Ian Murray employed a campaign director from London Labour HQ as well as numerous bussed in helpers.
Probably too late now but did anyone look at his election expenses returns?
@K1
Well said. With you 100%. Some folk like climbing on to high horses, and making judgements.
None of us know anything about their private lives, and I prefer to judge them on their political activities and records, and I will miss Hosie in a senior role.
I hesitate to raise Sheridans name, BUT, that is a man I judge on his political actions, on Poll Tax, fighting for his area, fighting for Indy, and giving ligger Neil a kicking. None of that can be denied.
I follow John Nicolson on Twitter, and he was rightly upset, folk were jumping on a bandwagon to drag private lives through the mud.
The homophobic abuse Owen Jones gets is shocking. There is a really disgusting obsession with people’s sex lives and sexuality in this country.
Not sure who is presenting the worst impression of Scotland at the moment – Muirfield dinosaurs, Hibs hooligans or Hosie the Humper.
Hooligans Hump Dinosaurs Over Scotland.
(coat oan)
Anyone seen the statement SLab have put out condemning Nicola Sturgeon for attacking their supporters and staff on the pitch.
Oops! My bad it was Rangers…
Pete Wishart ups the ante in Tory Election Fraud today, from the Independent
SNP MP Pete Wishart wrote to the Met Police to call for an investigation into whether the Tories attempted to subvert the Representation of the People Act in the way they recorded their election spending.
Revs Twitter has the full mental statement from Rangers, jumping the shark, and getting SNP bad into it!!!!
Hooligans Hump Dinosaurs Over Scotland.
(coat oan)
That is a website I don’t want to visit.
@lumilumi.
Always enjoy your posts and different perspectives. Unfortunately, in our society, sectarianism has been used to divide the working class in industrialised and urban Scotland. Even today, Yoons are happy to use it to drag us back to the 50s. But every country has its cross to bear: look at Boris Johnson in England.
You should comment more often.
I have just read the Rangers statement linked above
FFS! Cry me a river.
You want the government to do something? I am sure they will. I think your chances of getting shot of the OBFA are scuppered though.
Heedtracker @ 1.35pm
Agree with you. Bit of Scottish cringe going on here too.
Hibs did brilliantly well!!
Great win for scotland 7s squad at Twickenham!
Thepnr,
““Duncan Forbes, Lord Culloden, lived from 10 November 1685 to 10 December 1747. He was an important figure in the legal establishment of Scotland for a number of decades and a staunch opponent of the Jacobites in two uprisings.”
“Duncan Forbes is credited with doing much to stabilise the Scottish legal system in the decades following the Act of Union between England and Scotland in 1707. On a less serious level he was also a keen golfer and had a role in the formation of an early golf club, the Gentlemen Golfers of Leith.”
He was one of the Proud Scot but that sold out to England in 1707. No doubt that the “club” is doing it’s best to maintain the principles of a founder member.”
The Scottish justice system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.
So called “human rights lawyers” included. They trouser hundreds of thousands while people starve in Scotland.
@lumilumi
In the absence of real war we are perpetually divided in this small country. As each new ‘threat’ comes along – independence, resurgence of ‘dead’ languages, a new appreciation of our history and culture, immigrants, you name it – some people embrace the challenge and look forward.
Others, sadly, retreat evermore into frightened, regressive, paranoid sectarian tribalism – football, marching bands, flags…
Just been looking at the Rev’s Twitter feed. It wasn’t the pathetic, snivelling statement from RFC that caught my attention, it was Ian Archer’s very brave denunciation of them in the 70s. Good job there was no interwebthingy in them days, or he’d have been dead.
Unfortunately, the drink got to him first.
He and John Rafferty were intellectual sports writers. The former used to quote TS Eliot in his reports.
Now we have……
Well, I can’t think of anyone.
@HandandShrimp –
Don’t know if you heard Radio North Britain this afternoon, but Chic Young was coming out with similarly indignant pish, not long before the Killie/Falkirk match.
Delusional rubbish, just like that statement. ‘Denial’ doesn’t even start to cover it.
Dorothy Devine says:
22 May, 2016 at 6:29 pm
deeply disappointed that he has resigned – his private life is up to him and his wife.
I do believe that he was |honey trapped”
Ruby replies
According to this article
link to pressreader.com
She is deeply in love with Stewart Hosie and is hoping for a long term future with him.
The way I see things is that usually the marriage has broken down before any affair takes places.
42% of marriages end in divorce surely we can’t dictate that politicians must never get divorced and if their marriage breaks down they must resign.
The press who I think are the scum of the earth seem to be taking a holier than thou, highly moralistic stance on this so called ‘sex scandal’
What next will adulterers be stoned in the street!
I find all these ‘holier than thou’ ‘unforgiving’ attitudes to be very scary!
FC Barcelona vs FC Sevilla – kick-off shortly at:-
link to neofeed.tv
link to petewishart.wordpress.com
Ruby @ 8.23pm
Do you remember Mr McConnell and his admission of an affair? He held a press conference with his wife at his side when he admitted the affair. He did so around the time he was standing for the post as party leader or had just been elected leader. Great start.
But the whole thing disappeared pdq thereafter and was never referred to again by the press unlike this which will run and run and be dragged up at every opportunity.
@Ruby
I had to laugh as I thought in my own warped way that if we did bring back stoning for adulterers then that would probably wipe out most of the Yoon Press and Media. The second oldest profession would cease to exist.
Copa del Rey – already seen a number of Saltires in the crowd.
Mon the Catalunya!!!!!!!
@AhuarMazda
I’m not sure what I’m failing to understand.
i think what you are failing to understand is that the progress you refer to was achieved on a mountain of private debt which was only achieved because of the financial deregulation introduced by the Tories and happily adopted by the blairites. Such growth could easily have been achieved by investment from govt but the erroneous beliefs of the monetarists – Keith Joseph, thatcher etc that deficit spending crowds out private investment (all due to the belief in the loanable funds myth – that lending depends on a pool of depositors).
Thatcher boasted that our public debt:GDP was amongst the lowest in Europe. We were looked on by our own Govt as unproductive but people fail to mention the public expenditure by the likes of Germany (with a higher deficits) to improve efficiencies in their industrial base. Compare the two countries now.
Thus the Tories were pushing home the very palatable view that the govt was just like a household and had to live within its means. They and labour in the 70s also believed that inflation was caused by the Bank of England allowing the money supply to grow too much. Two things here,
The BoE don’t control the money supply (banks do) and the inflation was caused by supply shocks from the opec crisis.
So thatcher in her erroneous beliefs and flat earth economic views believed in market equilibrium and lit a very long fuse which blew up in 2008. All the UK assets built up in the post war spending spree have since been and are being systematically dismantled and sold off.
There’s just too much to go through here – decades of it!
So start with this link and you’ll see lots more on the same blog..
link to bilbo.economicoutlook.net
Showed Mrs TC the RFC statement: she opined, “But aren’t they the ones who goad everyone with their stupid songs?”
Eh, Yes.
I have French in my family. They haven’t quite recovered from the Sons of William visit to St Etienne in the 1970s.
Their PR statement takes hypocrisy to stratospheric levels. Ask the people of Manchester, just a few years ago.
Sheesh!
The thing about these so called ‘sex scandals’ is that no civilian and no children died as a result and their actions did not result in the creation of a terrorist group and all kind of real horrors!
link to thetimes.co.uk
Lumilumi @6.45 pm
You ice hockey tales sound wonderful! That is exactly how sports should be enjoyed. Appreciation and camaraderie all round = )
How did the next game go?!! Rooting for Finland now!
How hard will tory BBC Scotland led media creep show use Hosie to cover this?
link to archive.is
Come on SNP. Get into to them.
Legerwood says:
22 May, 2016 at 8:34 pm
Ruby @ 8.23pm
Do you remember Mr McConnell and his admission of an affair? He held a press conference with his wife at his side when he admitted the affair
Ruby replies
I don’t remember that it could have happened when I was while I was abroad enjoy a lot of sun, sand sea & sex!
I really don’t think voters care if politicians have affairs Jack McConnell admission was probably more about trying to curtail the press.
Judging from Twitter, in relation to the Hibs/Rangers match, there are quite a few people who have seriously disturbed personalities.
I’ve just come back from Leith. I looks like one big party at the foot of the walk.
I didn’t see any trouble everyone look very happy if a wee bit drunk!
I was a bit worried when I was driving down Easter Road and I saw and the green & white scarves I thought I might not be able to find a parking space but fortunately everyone was on foot.
It looks like my views highly controversial views on Thatcher have been eclipsed by other events.
Morality has appeared on the menu and there’s a queue of people waiting to tuck right in.
It’s Moral Burgers and Fries all round. Rangers, yesindyref2, and K1 have decided to go large.
Even Grouse Beater is indulging, with 4 million carefully chosen words that magically combine to say less than nothing.
If morality is meat then I am a vegan. I suspected by the age of 7 that my moral compass was a bit wonky. It turned out it was fine, it’s the earth’s magnetic field that’s wonky.
I suggested last week that there was probably more to come on the Hosie story. I’m suggesting again tonight there’s probably more to come on the Hosie story. Politicians tend to resign for stuff that is about to unfold rather than stuff that has already unfolded…
The good news is that all of this is irrelevant guff. Morality is to politics what ornithology is to the birds. I have no idea what that means, but I hope Rev Stuart comes back with a good article soon and we can all move on.
Holy fudge is Scotland going to pay for Hibs next season.
“So, let everyone be clear on one thing – Rangers demands that players, staff and fans be protected from the violence and hatred of supporters of other clubs. Rangers fully expects the Scottish FA and Police Scotland to take action to provide our people with a safe environment. When players are unable to accept medals at the end of a final because of fears for their safety and our supporters are alarmed and extremely concerned for the women and children among them, then surely every step must be taken to ensure that this is never repeated.
Article Copyright © 2016. Permission to use quotations from this article online is only granted subject to appropriate source credit and hyperlink to http://www.rangers.co.uk
Anent the two kinds of people, there’s entertainin folk & borin bastards!
Ruby @ 8.57pm
“”I really don’t think voters care if politicians have affairs Jack McConnell admission was probably more about trying to curtail the press.””
It worked, but then he was/is Labour, very much a protected species when it comes to the press in Scotland.
‘I hope Rev Stuart comes back with a good article soon and we can all move on.’
To paraphrase someone else, ‘You move if you want to…’
yesindyref2 says:
@Anagach
I think we do know “the basis of their relationship”. When the wives found out about it, it led to separations. So not only did the wives not know about it before, they didn’t accept it. And it’s not about the “sex”, it’s about the betrayal of trust in a relationship.
I would not presume to know their relationship from what is in the public domain – and I dont know them personally.
There is no knee jerk defense of SNP – I would judge no politician upon their – entirely legal – sexual life.
Just as I would judge no other profession.
Anyway, I’m out.
Just to be sure – do we know if that statement was definitely the work of Traynor?
@ Dorothy Devine 6.29pm We flew the Flags all the way up & all the way down & had a nice lunch with ( cearc ) to,both of us were knackered by signing up for the Skye convoy 30th Sept.
Hope your keepin well.
BTW folks Nana wont be online for a while as she,s had a operation on her left hand & will have another one on her right hand shortly,so tapping keyboards is out of the question.
Get better soon Nana xx & Norman take care both of you,s.
To appreciate the work of Mrs T, it is a bit like appreciating the residual heat as your house burns down.
Scottie dog, as always, you reveal a superior understanding of the underlying economic issues. I absolutely bow to your superior understanding.
I’m not sure what age you are but I lived through the 1970s. Everybody was poor where I lived in Glasgow. The odd thing is that almost everybody was working.
I have described the 1980s as a period of dramatic change and progress for a number of reasons. The Cold War ended, the digital age with CDs and the Internet appeared, and women in huge numbers started taking part in the economy like they hadn’t since WW2.
Thatcherism coincided with that by accident. The consequences of her policies were dramatic in terms of heavy industries like coal and engineering closing down and at the same time a new economy appeared (largely fuelled by credit). Where I lived local shops disappeared almost overnight and big exciting new hyper-markets appeared.
I can see you are critical of monetarism but for one reason or another inflation was brought under control in the 1980s. The emphasis it gives to interest rates seems fine in isolation to me but it seems to ignore the multitude of other economic factors in play.
I don’t see any political parties arguing that we should return to the 1970s, not really. I don’t see anyone arguing to reinstate the Unions and nationalise industry. As I said before, we no longer even have industrial policy. Whatever you want to call it, Thatcherism, neoliberalism, whatever, it looks like we are sticking with it.
But I think most people are materially better off now. Obesity has replaced hunger as a problem, everyone seems to have cars, even unemployed people, everybody has the Internet and washing machines and holidays abroad and big giant TVs. That’s how it seems.
There is an underclass of sorts that wasn’t there before but if anyone in that underclass wants out all they need to do is learn a bit of web design or find something to sell on Ebay. There’s a million options that just weren’t there in the 1970s for poor people.
Interesting, Kezia Dugdale, Hibs supporter, sent a congratulatory tweet, as did David Cameron.
OT Hofer won. Just.
Aye, Nana do get well soon, missing all yer cracking links and input in general 🙂
@ ghillie and others re. ice hockey.
We lost.
2-0, but Canada’s second goal was into an empty net in the last 8 seconds while we were trying to equalise with 6 field players and no goalie to take it into overtime.
Oh well. If you have to lose an ice hockey final, it’s all right to lose to Canada. They invented the game, after all. I don’t hate Canadians and I’m not going to go out and beat up any Canadians I might meet. It’s not their fault their national team was just that much better than ours.
Finland’s record: 10 finals, 2 championships (silver is getting to taste a bit bitter…) We won the U18 and U20 this year, and I’m not sure what the Lionesses have been up to. The Lions won all but one game in the tournament, so we’re in a good place going forward.
Still, losing the final sucks.
**moves away from the laptop…punches a cushion tae fuck**
🙂
Anent MacConnell, who put him up to it?
I see the obnoxious troll Mazda has managed to screw an otherwise decent thread countless times by insisting on posting puerile crap about his Goddess Thatcher that has bugger all to do with any subject anybody has raised. And he’s still at it.
This is the same troll from last year but with a new name, the ‘Tory businessman who believes in independence but has deep reservations’ and for some mysterious reason can only express himself on Wings.
Sunday comes to a close. Have a good week Wingers.
Whit? Canadians?
Heard Chic Young’s unbelievable shite about yesterday’s ‘riot’. Apparently invading the pitch at Wembley in 1977 and breaking the goalposts and tearing up the pitch was ok, and the police ‘encouraged’ the Scots on to the turf…but yesterday was the 1980 final riot all over again?
Well, I know the wee man is a closet Sevco/zombie supporter but his blue tinted specs must have blinded him to reality. I was at Wembley and the cops did not ‘allow’ anybody…we went on and celebrated…yes..it was vandalism..but nobody got hurt. No English were there in any numbers..and in those days were too frigtened to resist. I saw only one case of intimidation and that was on the tube. But I and others intervened to save two English guys being banjoed.
I’ve viewed the youtube footage and all I can see is thousands of exuberant Hibs fans celebrating in like manner to the above anecdote. What is noticeable that one or two are gesticulating with scarfs to the remaining Sevco fans. Then a significant number of said Sevco supporters run on to attack the Hibbes…some of whom defend themselves.
Significantly, the mass of Hibs fans makes no move towards them. But the calvary of police instead drive the Hibbes back…not the zombie invaders. To add insult to injury..once the troublemaking bad losers have exited the stadium.. the SFA in order to cover their own incompetent embarassment have a cordon of cops and stewardsthrown round the the Hibs end…to no purpose other than a show of their impotence..and the team are sadly not allowed their half lap of victory.
Shameful and unsubstantiated accusations made of assaults etc on Sevco FC players and officials are made by the carpetbagger Regan..a mealy mouthed disgrace…sullying our nation’s reputation world wide by inflating and conflating a minor skirmish incident with genuine celebrations.
As surmised, his and Sevco Fc ‘s murky motives are dubious to say the least. But Hibs greatest triumph is diminished and distorted by the BBC and our rotten dishonest media…all because the Unionist ‘champions’ of fitba were humiliated not only in football terms, but by their virus of a support…firing flares…singing sectarian hymns of hate… and spoiling parties that they are not wanted at…Where’s James Kelly when you need him?
@heedtracker
Next they will be demanding protection from members of the public sick to death of them.
@Grouse Beater –
Mazda extols Mrs T, but dismisses a truly working-class Scottish child of Thatcherism (Lady Mone) as a moron.
Typical bacon-roll quandry arising from the requirement to believe/advocate two contrary positions simultaneously.
He’s good, but he ain’t superhuman, and if he doesn’t watch it he’ll end-up in a strait-jacket, occasionally rolling himself from wall to padded wall by way of entertainment, howling about monetarism and social justice in a place where few understand what he’s on about, and even fewer care.
Mazda
Fuck off.
Many thanks.
Iain More says:
22 May, 2016 at 10:20 pm
@heedtracker
Next they will be demanding protection from members of the public sick to death of them.
They could compete in England, like top Welsh clubs but they are never going to because England wont tolerate their poor wee supporters rampaging through English towns and cities 9 months of the season, and on it madasfudge goes in teamGB.
I have read it all now- that statement from rfc is the most deluded, hypocritcal, deceitful pish. I stay out of football posts on here because football is divisive and tribal and indy is all about uniting people but there are reasons why almost every neutral watching that game yesterday would be rooting for Hibs.
There was a high probability of a pitch invasion yesterday whatever the result. For rangers, after the last few years humiliation to win the Scottish Cup and get into Europe would have been enormous. As for a Hibs win it was an absolute certainty. I can remember fans invading the park at the often reserved Palmerston when Queens won the second division title albeit in far, far fewer numbers.
Hibs have been denigraded as being “Leith Scum”, junkies, perennial losers, bottlers for years. In the media whenever Hibs play in the Scottish cup its always the hoodoo of how many years so it has built up into a massive thing. I would have been amazed if the long suffering support had not invaded the pitch yesterday, such was the outpouring of relief and sheer unbridled joy.
If ever there was going to be a pitch invasion it was yesterday. If not Hibs winning the Scottish Cup- when?
Fans of the losing team had absolutely no business being on the park except for fighting. From what I have seen they were the ones who engaged. Of course there is an element of the Hibs support that is badly behaved- the police have already made arrests as is appropriate. All this sanctimonious drivel about shame or disgrace all over the press is just so much pious nonsense.
Christ- no-one has been arrested over Iraq yet and Blair illegally invaded in 2003. A goalpost is knackered and the media go to defcom 1.
I was overjoyed watching Hibs win and loved watching the jubilent Hibs fans surge onto the park. And if anyone thinks the Hibs fans are feeling shame or disgrace or anything of the sort today then none I spoke to last night in a series of boozers on Leith Walk were exhibiting any of it. More public drunkenness than I have ever, ever witnessed but shame there was none. Pride was everywhere.
I was proud to watch them lift the trophy and I was proud on the bus ;ater last night to find the route had to be diverted due to Hibs fans on Leith Walk. And I was proud when at about 12.30 (I think) Woodland Creatures on the walk closed the bar early presumably because they had run dry. It was like the last days of Rome.
Today the scenes on Leith Walk when the bus drove down amidst the throng of fans and well-wishers were simply indescribable. I took my bairns and wife along and it was magic… no much shame on display there either.
Violence is to be condemned and dealt with wherever it occurs but I don’t buy into all this handwringing by the largely Glasgow based press and TV.
Anyway- I won’t post about football again because it does no good… and reading the above it all sounds jolly irresponsible but I have tried to summarise my irresponsible thoughts with honesty. There has to be room for a little irresponsibility sometimes
Ahuramazda..
You are at it, again.
Thatcher/80s = Progress.
er..
Nothing that creates elitism
can be classed as progressive.
Sure there was upward mobility and technological advancement.. but they should have neen harnessed better for all our sakes.
But..progress? Really?
All your assertions conclude by re- polarising what you have already laid out.
Private wealth was created using OUR(the peoples), (hard won by good old Blighty as they like to say) ASSETS.
Where’s the quality infrastructure?
Where’s the free-will? (the whole point of democracy)
If there has been progress, it has merely been an opportunity for Capitalism.
And so it begins, all the way from Slovenia, boosting up grievance, toryboy style. Will it get worse? Ofcourse.
Adam Tomkins MSP ?@ProfTomkins 3h3 hours ago
–> Why were Hibs fans able to reach Rangers players before they had left the pitch? How can that be compatible with security arrangements?
Ahura (NeoCon, AngryMuppet or whatever the hell voice is talking to you today) – you love to come in here and chuck in yer wee grenades and scarper, don’tcha. This time it’s the ghost of Thatcher past.
Away an’ chase yerself ya fucking halfwit. No one here is the least bit interested in your wee Thatcher grenade. She’s deid, for fuck’s sake. Well deid an’all.
Yer Union’s crumbling pal. That’s whit yae sould be worryng yerself aboot. I’ll give yer Union seven years at MOST. How’d you like ’em apples you unreconstructed fud!
Re Spokesarse Traynors demanding statement.
A tad premature methinks.
Wait and see the score at Glasgow sheriff court am.
My guess is there will be 4 peepel for every hibbie up.
Ian, Thatcher was successful in terms of what she aimed to achieve. She won 3 elections and ticked off all her policy goals one after the other.
Lady Mone’s record in business speaks for itself; everything she has touched has turned to dust. Assuming it was her goal to be a successful businesswoman, she has failed miserably.
Thatcher’s policies were bad for Scotland, without doubt. But being in Britain has been bad for Scotland, economically speaking, since about 1900 when their Empire started to shrink.
I’m objective, not some radical left lunatic who wants to go back to the 1970s. It’s possible that some people will read what I write in support of independence and find it more appealing than the usual left-leaning hysterics that passes for political opinion in here.
Political arguments for independence need to rest on something other than the chorus of Kumbaya, and economic arguments need to be more than just expression of emotion and sympathy for the poor.
The radical left have been systematically rejected time and time again by the Scottish electorate over the last several years. We aren’t getting Independence if people don’t vote for it.
Time to wake up and smell the coffee.
@Tam Jardine (10.41) –
🙂
Well said that man.
@AhuraMazda
Please don’t bow to anything. I’m merely someone in the aftermath of 2008 who decided to get down and dirty with all of this stuff and trolled plenty of texts (mostly in the heterodox discipline – the economists who saw the crisis coming from a mile off).
It’s interesting. No one bothers to compare the depressed state of the 70s with the boom of the post war era – 45-late 60s. Post Breton woods, countries broke, a Gold standard and fixed interest rates after the end of the gold standard – all better reasons than we have now to enforce austerity on a nation. Yet with all of that there was a boom and I’m so glad you mentioned that so many people were employed in your area in the 70s.
This was simply due to the fact that in the post war period government’s targeted full employment – a job guarantee which enabled social mobility. All of these jobs for life (whether in the public or private sector) were the result of a huge wave of govt spending. After the adoption of monetarism and the false belief that inflation was due to deficit spending, unemployment was used as a tool to try to control inflation. Here’s a good link to explain inflation late 70s early 80s..
link to bilbo.economicoutlook.net
If you think that people are materially better off, think about their personal debt. Who owns their home? Really?
Compare with the 70s and you will find that the proportion of outright home owners was greater. The bank currently owns about 40% of my home at the moment. How wealthy am I compared to my father at my age who owned his home outright?
As for the function of unions. You quash them and engage in the race to the bottom. You shrink wages all the while increasing personal debt (govt surplus = non govt deficit to the penny), What happens to disposable income? Who buys the products they toil to produce?
So we have always been brainwashed with populist view that thatcher and the Tories and the blairites were/are business friendly, yet all the time by reducing our ability to spend they were destroying demand – the lifeblood of the economy. At the macro economic level SPENDING IS INCOME. If the majority of us can’t spend, demand reduces, people go out of business and unemployment rises. Once the economy enters recession, automatic stabilisers kick in and the govt HAS to spend – hence why Osborne cannot achieve his targets.
as for the people who tell others just to innovate or that you can live on a tenner a week and be very healthy, they fail to realise the mental state of an under confident, malinvested population. I have seen at first hand what this can do to people’s state of mind. It sounds reminiscent of a conversation I had with an older Tory lady using the same arguments. I was angry to the point of walking away from this lady who didn’t even want me to explain all of the above to her. Within a few minutes I could tell she benefitted in one way or another from a govt targeting full employment as she was growing up, yet she felt it fair that my child shouldn’t have the same opportunities.
This is more than enough for me but think on the fact that a currency issuing govt like the UK simply cannot default (unless voluntarily). This fact has been lost – even after the rounds of QE of 2012. Part of the £5 trillion in private debt can and will be defaulted on and the already impoverished and their offspring will pay the price for the city of London casino.
Lastly, I worked my balls of to get where I am. I live well and am in the higher tax bracket. Lucky me. Yet I see now that the opportunities there for me simply won’t be there for my young son. This is simply down to ideology with no economic basis to back it up.
defo
“My guess is there will be 4 peepel for every hibbie up.”
Then we’ll get another statement this time condemning the courts and Hibs and Nicolas Sturgeon and the media and Hibs and the Scottish Government and Police Scotland and the courts. ..
Yoonpig.com
The gigantic UKOK sow’s milk, that all the littles piglets seem to be addicted to,comes in many forms(once attached to a teat,they’re not letting go,fukc you,fukc everybody,I’me getting fed,that’s all that matters).
For some it is football,to others it may be the BBC/MSM or just being a Red/Blue/Orange Tory,allowed to suckle,in return they must protect ‘big momma’,by any means necessary.
Most people in Scotland have tried it,not only is it foul tasting, but more and more voters are deciding,they are either lactose intorelant or the price is too high,way too high or it makes them feel unwell/sick.
Addiction is never good, but when it repeatedly,involves meaningless violence,constant lying/cover ups and/or bullying,it has become evil/too damaging,it is time to stop….time to grow up….it is time to throw in the towel yoons.
#cleanupyouract
Adam Tomkins is a ridiculous wee shandy pants who appears to have no idea of the hornet’s nest he stirs with his stupid comments.
I wonder if he teaches his children ‘songs’ to sing at Ibrox?
@lumilumi,
enjoyed your Ice hockey stories – shame that Finland never beat the Canadians.
On the history of ice hockey, it was supposed to have originated in Scotland with shinty players playing it on ice and their are records of it being played in Kildonan in Sutherland.
link to arts.caithness.org
The Scots took it to Canada and the rest is history!
Some of the big English football teams also started out as shinty teams formed by Highlanders.
link to shinty.com
Tam
It’s classic victim mentality.
When you start making up songs about nobody liking you, it’s all downhill from there !
A boil on the arse of Scottish football indeed.
I was delighted to see ‘the wee team’ get their long overdue glory.
Poor old MazzyDazNeoNob’s central ‘argument’ is based on a misunderstanding of the relationship between people and the ‘parties’ which claim to represent them.
I’m 52 years old. Normal, ‘working-class’ bloke, interested in ‘normal’ stuff. That includes what Orwell was always banging-on about but never ever managed to explain, i.e. ‘common decency’.
The unfortunate fact that no political party in Scotland has yet managed to refine and direct that concept does not nullify the concept. It remains precious, no matter how nebulous it may be – if anything, its elusiveness enhances its appeal.
Sheridan proved to have feet of clay. The SSP/RISE coalition was ill-conceived and calamitous (electorally at any rate) for both groups. Dugdale and her distant boss Corbyn appear hopelessly unelectable.
The essential qualities of Scottish civic identity are not the preserve of any political party, cannot be inextricably pinned to any named ideology – no-one has the right to ‘claim’ ownership of majority opinion on any specific matter of concern, let alone national aspirations.
Whatever the ‘clear will’ of the people of Scotland turns out to be, five or ten years hence, it’s hard to imagine that the values of Thatcher/Blair/Cameron will be those uppermost in the aims of those charged with reclaiming this nation’s identity.
Good input Ian B!
Tam you have a lovely way with words = )
My dad is a proper Liether, born in Iona Street. Lots of Highlanders settled there. A magic neighbourhood, magic folk.
The celebrations sound amazing and uplifting.
When our time comes the whole of Scotland will celebrate forever!
So perfect, that Barca’s first goal was scored by
Jordi ALBA !
Catalòinia a-chaoidh ‘s Alba gu bràth
As for the Ranger’s statement.
That was a huge rant of hate filled projection with some nasty bullying tones and threats.
‘This will not be tolerated’
Sound like Daleks.
And the BUM are just predictable.
ps ScottishPsyche @ 11.42pm ‘Adam Tompkins is a ridiculous wee shandy pants’!! = )
Please may I pinch that? = )
@Ghillie
Be my guest!
LEITHER! Not i before e!!
ScottishPsyche, = ) thank you! I’m going to have fun with that turn of phrase!
Oh Lumilumi @ 9.45pm
Just saw your post. Aww I am sorry Finland lost to Canada.
But great to hear you say that it’s ok to lose to Canada. I think they are born with skates on!
Hey! Maybe next year! Look how long Hibs waited and how sweet is their victory! = )
One day soon Scotland will know that sweet victory too = )
ps Nana, get well soon xxx
I get what you’re saying in total, ScottieDog. It’s all relatively familiar to me. And I have a pretty good understanding of economics, monetarism, The Bretton Woods system, etc., so let’s look at what you said in some detail.
“it’s interesting. No one bothers to compare the depressed state of the 70s with the boom of the post war era – 45-late 60s.”
In Britain there was no boom period in the 40s or 50s, as I recall. If I remember right they were still issuing food stamps until 1955. There was some research done recently on calorie intake that suggested Britain was essentially malnourished right up until 1960. Hardly a boom. Meanwhile in the background the decolonisation process was in full swing.
We might all agree that the British Empire was immoral but we’d also need to agree that it was good for the British economy. The decline of that Empire equates then to a decline in the UK’s relative economic strength against other countries and the figures all confirm that — not that anybody could seriously dispute it after Suez. In short, this was a period of decline for Britain, not boom as you suggest.
In the 60s things momentarily picked up in Britain but compared to the “miracle” of say the German economy, Japan, and what was going on elsewhere in the US etc., Britain was struggling.
Printing money, which is basically what you seem to be advocating, did work in some respects. But I can see why the US was keen to dump the Gold Standard / Bretton Woods system as it did, when the consequence of countries printing money was that the US effectively bailed them out through the IMF. That said, in terms of currency fluctuations if nothing else, Bretton Woods did stabilise things whilst it was in place.
The 1970s, not just in the UK but everywhere, was a period of severe volatility. The Oil Crises hit everyone in terms of inflation and the global economy nosedived. Again, though, hardly conditions we should be looking to foster again now and definitely not a boom.
It’s worth remembering that the industrial unrest of the 1970s was caused by governments (left leaning governments who practiced exactly what you seem to be preaching) refusing wage rises in line with rising inflation. They had reservations about printing money then too it seems — serious reservations. The natural consequence of printing money is inflation, as you know, and if they had reservations about it then we should ask why.
Note that I regard a commitment to full employment and state intervention in the economy to the extent you are advocating as a process that would necessarily involve printing money. Call it deficit spending or debt or whatever you want, it’s basically printing money.
Your understanding of the period and its economics seems very US-centric. If you argued it as an American it would make more sense but Britain as I see it was on its knees right through the post-war period, and arguably still is.
That said, and if you want I can cut and paste some data in support, Britain has a more vibrant and healthier economy now than it had between 1945 and 1980 and its a much more attractive place for business and high earners (thanks to changes in taxation levels introduced by Thatcher).
You seem to agree that people are generally materially better off now but that it is a consequence of personal debt. I’m fine with that. If a family was sitting in poverty and in need of material or food, I wouldn’t hesitate to suggest they borrow. It’s odd how you frown on debt and borrowing for individuals but not for countries.
I have no problem with debt whether it is for individuals or countries — whatever gets you through the night. Better to have debt than hungry bellies. But it needs to be kept to reasonable, realistic levels. I think the Tories were right to address the structural deficit; as an individual, I wouldn’t want or expect to carry on indefinitely if I was spending more than I earned.
More than once you have attacked monetarism. But I don’t take monetarism very seriously and haven’t said anything to suggest otherwise — Chicago School theories are out of date and I always thought they were a bit too narrow in scope.
I support a mixed economy which includes a role for the state, safeguards for the poor, and a free market all working in harmony. As I said in previous discussions, that’s what some would call neoliberalism. Scotland is in a good position in terms of skills and resources to embrace the free market to the extent that say Germany has. The Union sucks the blood out of the Scottish economy, that’s clear.
‘Whatever the ‘clear will’ of the people of Scotland turns out to be, five or ten years hence, it’s hard to imagine that the values of Thatcher/Blair/Cameron will be those uppermost in the aims of those charged with reclaiming this nation’s identity.’
For if that were the case that we had or where on that road to wholly consuming and espousing those ‘values’ we would not have a need of a ‘Wings Over Scotland’.
Where such erudite and honest people populating these discussions, above and below the line, burst economic myths, correct historical inaccuracies, unpack the lies and propaganda that has been fed daily to people. From that core of ‘nebulous’ ‘common decency’ they attempt to inform, educate and promote passionately that there is a ‘better’ way possible for the people in our polity. They have had to ‘unplug’ from the ‘dominant’ narrative that has been foisted upon us by the writers and broadcasters of our ‘reality’, to realise that the only route left for us to ‘retain’ our common decency is to become what we once were: an Independent Scotland.
That only Scotland’s independence will secure a fairer and more equal future for those who come after us, one were the philosophy of kindness and genuinely caring for each other is at the core of our governance and general outlook on life itself.
This is not about ‘left’ or ‘right’ this is about being human beings, this is our evolution we are fighting for not our devolution.
K1, I’ll be honest, I think ScottieDog was more or less wrong about that even if it reads well.
I don’t think Thatcher, Blair, and Cameron are ever going to be worshipped here — they were/are British leaders doing what works for Britain which as I understand it really means England.
But it looks like the majority of Scots don’t want a return to the high tax and spend policies associated with old Labour and the 1970s. RISE didn’t win one single seat in a system that is favourable to small parties and that’s what they were basically peddling.
Statistics show that the majority of earners in low, middle, and high earning categories voted against independence in 2014.
If you want independence you should take that stuff on board. The SNP will take it on board; they are smart people and I trust they will do what is prudent just as they have done up until now. The SNP keeps the radical left at arms length for a reason.
Getting back to Thatcher, Blair, and Cameron, no, we won’t ever worship them, but at the same time we aren’t going to worship Citizen Smith or Trotsky.
We can however have a healthy mixed economy where the poor get a fair crack at the whip alongside higher earners, businesses, and the successful who aren’t punished with impossible tax levels. And that’s basically what Thatcher, Blair, and Cameron stood for.
I actually think this debate represents a lack of maturity here. I wonder why we can’t have the sort of economy that Germany, Denmark, and a pile of other countries seem to have, without the class war stuff. Scotland is one of the few countries that would do well to embrace the free market with its resources and skills-base and that’s what we should do.
Apologies, I attributed Ian’s fine (if wrong) words to ScottieDog. Similar standpoints though, in a sense.
My big problem with your Orwellian ‘common decency’ theory, Ian, is that it seems to suggest that Scottish people are in some way more altruistic and therefor superior to others and that’s just silly nationalism talking. There’s a reason it’s so “nebulous” and “elusive”, as most delusions of grandeur are.
Incidentally, Orwell said some quite nasty things about the “Scotch” which you might want to take on board. I understand he retracted them later on when he was convalescing up here but even so, he was hardly infallible and his essay on Nationalism is quite scathing towards Celts and others, as you will most likely know.
Orwell’s essay on the English language and how it’s been abused is worth reading and more relevant to where we are in Scotland right now, I’d say.
*pops heid in, there’s a faint whiff o’ pish lingering in the air. Och it’ll clear eventually…switches lights aff, shuts door…leaves*
@Ian Brotherhood 11.58
‘Common decency’
That’s essentially the point in a nutshell Ian and why a parliamentary sovereignty is essential for the Conservatives and those who follow that system of government.
A parliamentary sovereignty allows a party to dictate and direct the will of the people. A popular sovereignty means public servants follow and reflect the will of the people.
Of course the trick for a parliamentary sovereignty, in what is meant to be a modern western democracy, is in convincing an electorate that the system they live with is both democratic and reflective of their society. The reality is, of course, exactly the opposite.
The only will is that of the crown and state and democracy is limited to a restricted menu of parties (that would be two) who are fully paid up members of that system.
Enter the media, also fully paid up members of the establishment. They control the flow of information, direct opinion and act as both guardians of the state and defacto witchfinders for the demographics the state would single out for their special attention.
You control the message, you own the messenger, you control the population. A neat arrangement.
Until some poison pill invents an alternate and far more popular form of social communication, interaction and information sourcing. Then folks start to question stuff and get grumpy at being taken for mugs for several decades.
Who knew folk would take umbrage at being manipulated for personal gain?
Troll Mazda: “Orwell said some quite nasty things about the “Scotch” … and his essay on Nationalism is quite scathing towards Celts and others.”
It’s time Troll Mazda stopped dominating discussions; he’s back here again only to a spread social disease called Toryism.
As usual, Troll Mazda can’t help himself from lying for effect. He never knows his facts only a gloss. He’s here to provoke and to divert. Unfortunately he repeats the same crapology endlessly. Regulars spot it, those dropping by assume he’s genuine.
An example: He claimed Thatcher was a great inspiration to women, she arising from the female liberation movement, when if fact Thatcher detested feminism, and most women thought her a terrible example of a woman in an executive job. She was ignorant, intolerant, anti-democratic and batty, driven out of the Tory party when her colleagues spotted her Altzeimer’s had advanced to a point it couldn’t be hidden anymore. She coined the phrase ‘no job is guaranteed for life’, and then proceeded to hang on to her job when all wanted her out. She’s held up as a heroine by English racists and nationalists – of which Troll Mazda is one – same as Trump is held up by god fearing Americans. She wasn’t even the first female prime minister in the modern world. Golda Meir got there years before Thatcher.
All trolls are boastful and serial liars.
Troll Mazda pretends he is quoting George Orwell. He is not. He is spreading falsehoods. Orwell made one statement about Scottish spiritualism being really an exercise in gaining power, which was true to an extent when Orwell observed the rise of the SNP. It has no relevance now. Orwell was an Etonian questioning English imperial power and regarded himself as a socialist. I know one exactly like him, novelist and racing punter, David Bendedictus.
Orwell detested “English” nationalism.
Indeed the rest of Orwell’s essay is devoted to pointing out what we all know, that the worst English traits are racism, fear of foreigners, and a hatred of intellectuals. Troll Mazda exhibits all those traits by his atytacks on the Scots and our aspirations for full democracy.
Orwell knew English weaknesses would bring England low in time. He was correct. We got Enoch Powell’s ‘rivers of blood’ speech, and Tebbit suggesting immigrant loyalty and assimilation can be judged solely on the basis they cheer an English cricket team. (Imagine the outcry if a Scottish politician asked incomers to show loyalty by supporting shinty.)
Orwell had a lot to say about London soaking up money and people impoverishing the rest of the UK. Troll Mazda might kind of agree with that, but as a trap for the unwary. he would then tell you the City of London is nothing but a force for good. He is an idiot.
Troll Mazda is a dangerous idiot.
His modus operandi is to ignore the worst challenges and, picking some innocent’s remarks nearby, write at least three screeds of drivel as if answering other posters in a civil manner. It’s an old troll tactic.
Mazda is an old sociopathic troll.
Oh Ffs, ahuramazda..
Orwells views on politics/nationalism are irrelevant, when placed under the evil umbrella of systematic oppression he believed was the real danger to humanity.
Some utter bollocks above about ‘full employment’.
Why would we need full empkoyment?
We have technological advancement and mechanical aptitude to avoid and reduce manual work.
And if full employment was to ‘create economic wealth’ who would benefit? If the rich keep getting richer, whats in it for us? Oh, endless suppression and endless war.
Feck that.
I know, I know,
I am a silly boy,
I know, I know,
I know I make you cry,
I sing this song,
Although its dud,
Pretending that it’s why,
That I am a very silly boy.
(traditional arrangement)
Grousebeater Dear – if you ignore them they go away.
Wouldn’t it be better for everybody if certain people stopped shrouding their arguments in ad hominem attacks? I’ve continually resisted the temptation to respond in similar fashion but my patience is wearing very thin. Please stop it. We can discuss these things without childish insults.
Grouse Beater, 2 things;
1) are you supportive of the view that Scottish people have a “common decency” that sets them apart from other people? That’s a simple question, not a loaded one. If so, I’d love to discuss it…
2) here is a direct quotation from the article Orwell pieced on nationalism. We no longer need to guess what he thought of nationalism because here it is for all to see. I went through an Orwell phase years ago and he used to call Scottish people “scotch” intentionally to annoy them, as I recall. I like Orwell’s stuff. I think the way he was wrong about some things makes him more likeable. You seem to be holding me responsible for mistakes Orwell made.
“Welsh, Irish and Scottish nationalism have points of difference but are alike in their anti-English orientation. Members of all three movements have opposed the war while continuing to describe themselves as pro-Russian, and the lunatic fringe has even contrived to be simultaneously pro-Russian and pro-Nazi. But Celtic nationalism is not the same thing as anglophobia. Its motive force is a belief in the past and future greatness of the Celtic peoples, and it has a strong tinge of racialism. The Celt is supposed to be spiritually superior to the Saxon — simpler, more creative, less vulgar, less snobbish, etc. — but the usual power hunger is there under the surface. One symptom of it is the delusion that Eire, Scotland or even Wales could preserve its independence unaided and owes nothing to British protection. Among writers, good examples of this school of thought are Hugh McDiarmid and Sean O’Casey. No modern Irish writer, even of the stature of Yeats or Joyce, is completely free from traces of nationalism.”
The above quotation is available here on Bella and a thousand other places but the article by Greenwell might be of interest to some too so here is the link; link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
Finally, I don’t think the argument for Scottish independence needs or benefits from any sort of assumed support by Orwell or any notion that we are superior to others. Others might disagree. The independence argument stands on its own on the basis of self determination, democracy, and economics.
My views on Thatcher are there for all to see. Grouse might have quoted them. I think she does serve as a good role model to women and I don’t think anyone after Thatcher could possibly argue that women are less than equal as potential decision-makers, regardless of what you think of her politics and policies. I also agreed that she was bad for Scotland and went further by suggesting that Britain is bad for Scotland.
Paulka: “Grousebeater Dear – if you ignore them they go away.”
See above, at 10.22.
The predicted waffle to annoy and divert has arrived. And this is his second year on Wings.
I know – infuriating, but think of the folk who read but don’t comment.
Louis.b. “Orwells views on politics/nationalism are irrelevant, when placed under the evil umbrella of systematic oppression he believed was the real danger to humanity.”
I agree. I didn’t introduce Orwell in support of my views. I responded to someone else who brought him up in support of theirs.
I also didn’t argue for or raise the issue of full employment. I think if people are able to work they should, for their own benefit more than anything. I pointed out that in my experience of the 1970s we had full employment but everybody seemed to be not only poorer than they are now but poor in a more objective sense. I think people are better off now.
Paula: “think of the folk who read but don’t comment.”
Exactly my point:
Those are the people he’s aiming at – the ones he hopes to inculcate with half-truths, lies, and doubt, who know of Orwell but haven’t read him. It goes like this…
“I saw something on Wings the other day about Orwell disliking Scottish nationalism. I’d better take note. Orwell was a man of integrity.”
I think it’s up to the Rev to point out inaccuracies from certain folk – I just treat them as extra-long gaps between comments. After all very few of the longer comments are worth reading, and all us “old-hands” know ones are.
Grouse, you can address me personally, nothing to be afraid of.
Orwell’s views on nationalism are all over the web and well known. You seem to be suggesting that the average reader here is too thick to make up their own mind.
I couldn’t care less, on the other hand, if Orwell is supposed to be on our side or not. You seem to think his support is necessary; what next, we need Jesus on our side, Ghandi? How about Jimi Hendrix or Elvis, should we pretend their supposed support matters?
More bonkers arguments.
You see Grousebeater – my point well and truly made.
Paul: You see Grousebeater – my point well and truly made.
Erm, no. He doesn’t distinguish between you and me – either are cue enough.
See you next time…
Hoss, Lumilumi
Shame Lumilumi, better luck next time.
Hoss, as well as ‘shinny’ being used for an informal game of ice hockey, around 20 years ago I had a conversation with the curator of an ice hockey museum in Canada on the subject. He told me what the Micmac word was for hockey stick (don’t ask me to spell it, I can’t even remember the guy’s name, all I can remember is it started with a ‘K’) and I was able to inform him that it was phonetically quite similar to the Gaelic word ‘camanachd’.
Subsequently, I delved into the history and discovered that the earliest known ice hockey stick proper, as opposed to using a shinty caman, was made by the Micmac people in Nova Scotia.
Nova Scotia began as the first Scottish colony, prior to the act of union, but then became majority French speaking due to French incursion. However the Acadian French were later ‘evicted’, going to mainly the Louisiana region of the US and becoming the Cajuns. So with even more Gaels arriving from the clearances, Nova Scotia was then largely Gaelic speaking for over a hundred years.
It is therefore in all probability that the Micmac people of Nova Scotia would become familiar with Gaelic as being the predominant ‘paleface’ language in the area.
Indeed ‘Micmac’ itself sounds Gaelic although, of course many such linguistic coincidences do happen.
I have also seen it claimed that the word ‘moccasin’ could be taken to mean ‘my feet’ in the Gaelic of someone not 100% up on irregular Gaelic plurals. Easy to see how a non-Gaelic speaker pointing inquisitively at a native’s feet could come to the wrong conclusion.
Some food for thought: link to wp.me
@ Hoss and Chic
Hoss: enjoyed your Ice hockey stories – shame that Finland never beat the Canadians.
Excuse me, we’ve beat the Canucks several times, the latest a week ago in this tournament, 4-0 in the group stage. A couple of times in the quarter or semi finals, sometimes in the Olympics… But both Finnish WC victories have been over our dearest enemy Sweden. So sweet…
And I should’ve known the Scots invented ice hockey. lol. They’ve invented most of the modern world!
I used to follow Finnish league ice hockey quite keenly before it became too macho and commercialised. Now I’m ice hockey mad for just two weeks in May for the World Champs tournament. I have more things in life besides ice hockey. In light of all the football ugliness, maybe some people in Scotland shoud have more things in their lives as well.
OK, one more ice hockey story. I was living and working in Australia but thought to call my mum on Mothers’ Day – always the second Sunday in May in Finland. Dad answered and then just went on and on about the ice hockey. Finland were in the final agaist Canada! Me: “Er, dad… Mother… Mothers’ Day?” Dad: “Yeah, all right, I’ll tell her you called. I’ll call you after the game.”
I was very antsy that night! This was before everybody had broadband and could find out what’s happening on the other side of the world on the interwebs. In the morning my housemate answered the phone and handed it to me: “It’s your dad.” Dad: “We lost. On the sixth penalty shot.” I wailed outloud. The way it was played back then was normal 20+20+20 periods, then an extra 10 min “sudden death” period, then five-on-five penalty shots. If it was tied even after all that, it was one-on-one penalty shots. So I knew the Canadian goalie had saved and the Finnish one hadn’t. The narrowest margin possible to lose.
My boyfriend and housemate were worried when they saw me crying after the phonecall. Had something bad happened? Had a family member died? Me: “We lost on the sixth penalty shot! Wah wah wah.” They didn’t understand. I tried to conceptualise it to them. “How would you feel if you lost the Ashes due to a draw in the last test?” (This was when Australia reigned supreme in international test cricket.)
Next year, I was back in Finland, the W Champs were held in Sweden. Finland beat Sweden in the final, and even stole the Swedish team’s fight song. “Den glider in…” Aah, so sweet. The best day of me life. We didn’t know what to do, so drifted into the esplanade in the centre of Helsinki. Laughed, cried, chanted, hugged and kissed strangers. Danced on tables in a street bar, until a memeber of staff came… and joined us! It was all pure joy, love and hugs.
The next world championship, 16 years later was somehow uglier. The pure joy and love was missing, it was more macho aggressive drunken, and nationalist, in the wrong way. Hm. Maybe it’s good we didn’t win this year.
Sorry for another long O/T post. Maybe some day soon I’ll write something relevant, like on the d’Hondt and proportional representation. (I’ve got a lot to say!)
Oh, and about Mazdas? Since so many seem to be talking about them in this thread. Pretty good cars but not a patch on Toyotas, my parents’ choice since the early 1980s. I prefer Hondas. Mine 18-yr-old just passed her MOT with flying colours today (well, yesterday, Monday).