Wings Over Scotland

With an absolute majority of Yes voters in favour of remaining in the EU and a fractured and confused No side on EU membership and other issues, the current independence campaign should leverage every weak and inconsistent position from the opposition to highlight that the BritNazi Establishment has clearly shown to be indecisive, incompetent, inconclusive, inept and weak on everything.

The union has been dead for a while, and the stench of decomposition can no longer be whiffed away with frantic waving of the butcher’s apron.

Now is the time.

#DissolveTheUnion

I think your poll has thrown up something quite fundamental about the people being polled – and indeed the wider population as a whole. Many people, given a direct and simple question know what to do.

General election – choose a candidate.
Referendum – Choose A or B.

There is no depth to either of these situations unless you want there to be (i.e. you’re particularly politically engaged and have more knowledge about the Parties other than, e.g., Conservatives are good for jobs or Labour will look after people or SNP will mitigate Westminster policies). I think what your poll questions show is that there are many people both in Scotland and throughout the UK who, for one reason or another, don’t go into the extended ramifications of a particular decision, or think about the wider issues, nor do they connect a number of questions together. Thus, you are left with a lot of answers that don’t make much sense or downright contradict each other.

It’s like that thing where someone says a word and you reply with the first word that comes into your head. It perhaps shows something of your psyche but doesn’t necessarily make any functional sense. Instinct rather than reason.

Basically, the UK really needs more people to start engaging their brains.

“The pellet with the poison’s in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true!”

Oops, the Chequer’s version of Brexit has broken, so now, “The flagon with the dragon has the pellet with the poison, the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true”.
Confusing isn’t it?
In Indyref 2, the Scots who favour leaving or remaining within the EU have a clear cut choice to make.
Well, what was that again? “The Pestle with the dragon has the poison brew…ugh?”

Is your desire for Self Determination as a given more immediate than your conviction to Leave the EU. Do you see Scotland as an Independent Nation, where the Scottish people make their own decisions about future trade, economic, and political relationships with the EU and the rest of the World?
Chicken egg, or egg chicken?

I sometimes wonder how much Westminster disfunction and incompetence would make even some No voters consider we would be better off running our own affairs.

To my No voting wife’s credit her move towards Yes was partly the Brexit result and partly positive towards the SNP’s policies and bills about poverty menstruating provision and support for NI women to be treated for free in Scottish NHS for abortions.

I think I will point out to her the two Glasgow Housing Corps who want to flip the tenancies of refugees to Scottish Assured tenancies to forestall Serco who leases the properties from them from evicting the tenants.

If this doesn’t show that Scottish civil society is far more liberal and humane than Westminster (Serco being effectively a UKGov agency) then I don’t know what is. I am most encouraged by their intended actions. It makes me proud to be Scottish.

Seriously O/T, but important.

I just read the FM’s statement on her meeting with the lying English Tory prime minister today. Somewhat oddly, the FM did not mention Scotland once, nor did she mention the fact that Scotland does not want brexit and voted by a massive majority against it.

Do those things no longer matter to the FM? Are we to assume that the SNP leadership have just decided to stop objecting to brexit? Is it now just a fait accompli? Will we even get an independence referendum? Most importantly, are indy supporters being effectively ‘strung along’?

The FM’s job is to get Scotland out of Brexit, not advise the Tories how to do it. Wrong priorities I think.

Serious questions.

30% of 2014 Yes Voters want to leave the EU is the stand out finding there.

Add that to the Curtice finding that 63% of Scottish voters would accept free movement in exchange for free trade (which is basically the EEA)http://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/just-15-months-to-go-what-scotland-is-making-of-brexit/

Conclusion. Wait for it.

EFTA EEA is the big tent option that might win a referendum, and then win a Yes vote in that referendum.

Robert Louis says:

The FM’s job is to get Scotland out of Brexit, not advise the Tories how to do it. Wrong priorities I think.

I think Nicola is concerned, as I too have been for months now, that we might be heading for a Blind Brexit (to coin that new, but accurate phase).

If TMay accepts a backstop on Ireland, and there is a fudged statement on the future relationship, then the Withdrawal Agreement can be signed and a transition period won. Brexit will happen and we might not have a clue what the final deal will be because it could be years away.

We won’t have a short term IndyRef2 is we stay in the single market. If it looks like going tits up then we can have IndyRef2.

BUT what does Nicola do if we are headed for a Blind Brexit?

If that is her concern, then as I say, I certainly share it!

This scenario very much suits the Tories. Get Brexit and avoid making future relationship decisions which will provoke IndyRef2.

@ Robert Louis

No. The FM’s eye is very much on both process and prize, I’d say. The prompt from the FM is for clarity. A clear and unambiguous statement from the Prime Minister that such and such is the outcome of Brexit negotiations.

Such clarity on positions is what the First Minister pledged to Scotland’s electorate before calling a referendum. That we’d know with some degree of certainty what the deal, if any, was.

“EFTA EEA is the big tent option that might win a referendum, and then win a Yes vote in that referendum.”

Agree. Takes all this “you’d have to join the euro” lying pish, away aswell.

Johnny says:

I don’t think the European negotiators are too interested in just having a transition period only to have all the nonsense and refusals to sign up to the four freedoms kick in again

Not so much the ‘four freedoms’ because they are only relevant for full single market access. My guess is the Tories are more likely to eventually settle for Canada-plus-a-bit.

That said, I agree that a Blind Brexit is only putting off decision time. That is my worry.

However, the EU are faced with ongoing chaos in London and a No Deal Brexit which will do huge damage to them too. If TMay is replaced then it’s Tory grassroots who make the choice and the EU know she might be the best on offer, all the alternatives are much worse. The EU may want to keep TMay. Also, they may want to prevent a fall of government.

So the EU might go along with a fudged further relationship statement and let a Blind Brexit occur. From their perspective this might be the best option in the short term.

ScottieDog at 1:52 pm

““EFTA EEA is the big tent option that might win a referendum, and then win a Yes vote in that referendum.”

Agree. Takes all this “you’d have to join the euro” lying pish, away aswell.”

It also defangs the ‘Spanish Veto’ scare. They’re not an EFTA member.

And:
– the ‘deficit’ criterion scare. EFTA has no requirement for any particular item
– the ‘have to join the Common Fisheries Policy’ scare. Poor old Union-Bertie Armstrong would have no traction for his tosh
– partly the ‘hard border’ at Gretna scare. Because the Customs Union position is adjustable to wherever rUK ends up, if we chose to do that
– the ‘you’ll be out of the EU for years’ scare. It’s irrelevant if we use the EFTA route to the single market, which is potentially quick and simple.

Maybe all it shows is that Brexit and indy are two different issues? It’s possible to be in favour of Indy AND Brexit – or be opposed to both. Some want Scotland out of all unions, some want Scotland out of the UK only, some want Scotland in all unions, and some want Scotland in the UK but out of the EU…?

BTW, there was a song about QEII back in the 1950s (sung to the air of the Sash) against the queen being Elizabeth the Second – there was a line in it ‘How can there be a second Liz, when the first one’s never been?’, does anybody know what the song was called?

Gala @ 2:01pm:

Perhaps.

But I also think the EU needs to ‘nip it in the bud’. There is some degree to which things take time but the reality is that the civil service and Westminster must know by now what the various alternatives are and which they prefer. All else is just timewasting and being afraid to make a transparent decision. So do the EU let them keep messing about even though they know the options?

As to a Canada-type deal, I think it’s a messy one in that you can import a certain amount of a good into the EU but then mega-tariffs get slapped on as if you were a ‘third country’, which you are really (and, IIRC, services aren’t included). Not that you were raising that as a point (just giving your opinion that that’s what the Tories want) but I hope people who have a reason to know come to understand what a Canada-type deal means.

I’ve said it before but I still think it would be wise in the run-up to indyref2 for the SNP to guarantee a referendum on an independent Scotland’s future relationship with the EU within the first five years of independence.

Blind Brexit?

Is that the one where you’re blind-folded and don’t actually see the hard concrete coming towards you as you topple over the cliff-edge?

Doesn’t make much difference if it’s ‘blind’ or not–there’s still gonna be one helluva splat at the end of it.

Both UKGov & ScotGov agree on that much. So, as soon as Brexit becomes a fait accompli or irrevocable, it doesn’t really matter how long it will take for the splat to happen–it’s still gonna happen.

Surely THAT is the key point? And at that moment, the FM should pull the IR2 trigger.

I have to admit that I am surprised at how high the percentage of Yes voters that actually want another referendum on brexit is. This is something I struggle to understand from a democratic, moral and also a logic point of view.

Let’s look at if from a logic point of view:

Scotland voted to remain in the EU by 62%. The result was very clear and it is therefore hard to imagine, particularly in the light of the shenanigans of the tories with the negotiations and the theft of power from our Parliament, that it would change in sufficient measure to become the opposite and all the sudden Scotland support and endorse brexit. Such result would of course be the ideal scenario for the britnats, because it would be the only one that truly legitimises brexit in the context of the UK. As we stand, the electorate of Scotland has not endorsed brexit and our MSPs and MPs have not given consent for the UK to be taken out of the EU. At all effects, Scotland is being dragged undemocratically out of the EU against will and without its consent. This could only be morally justified if it is done for the betterment of Scotland: the brexit impact reports and the theft of our devolved powers proves this is not the case at all.

I may be wrong on this, but I think there actually might be an actual increase in the support for the EU in Scotland. Doing the calculations however, if England and Wales were to keep the same proportion of vote as they did in the last ref, that would not make any difference to the outcome whatsoever. In fact, keeping the same turnout as last June 2016, if the vote in England does not change, the entire electorate of Scotland could vote against brexit and the outcome would not change either. A second EU vote so soon will be a pointless exercise for Scotland.

The proportion of the electorate in Wales is very small so it is realistically, only the vote of England what might vary in sufficient amount to change the outcome of the referendum. And therefore it is the vote of England what all those unionist politicians talking about this “people’s vote ” are really desperately after.

So the logic asks:
if all what you are interested in is the vote in England, why don’t you just call the vote in England? The only situation where such “UK wide” vote makes sense at all is if they expect that the vote in England will be really, really close and they hope the vote in Scotland may actually be enough to tilt it over.

So basically, what these politicians are after is a repeat of the first referendum: to frustrate the democratic will of one of the equal partners of the UK with the democratic will of the other. This brings us to the moral question: how is it justifiable to maintain a union where you are constantly throwing the democratic will and interests of a partner against the other? And when is this going to stop? Where are the limits of this?

One of the unintended consequences of the EU referendum is that it has opened the pandora box and exposed the fundamental political and social differences between Scotland and England. It is my view that those differences are now pretty much irreconcilable and that is why these unionist politicians are so desperate to put the beast back in the pandora box and quickly close the lid again with that second EU ref, in the hope that England would accept such outcome (I personally doubt it will).

Another thing that I feel the unionist politicians are desperate to cover up is the fact that Scotland has not really given consent for brexit. So if they were now to run another referendum to validate “the brexit deal”, should the people of Scotland participate in that referendum, the unionists will be using that result as a proof that we are endorsing brexit. It is therefore in my view a way of legitimising brexit and getting Scotland’s consent for it by the back door. I can’t help by thinking this is a trap. That is why I oppose to this “people’s vote” in the strongest possible terms. By the way, I read their petition for this “People’s vote”. It just talks about “a vote”. It does not really go into a lot of detail of what they want the people to vote for, which effectively leaves them with a blank canvas to put the question they want.

From a democratic perspective, and in light of those differences between England and Scotland and the fact that the vote of Scotland will not change the outcome, the only thing that makes actual sense logically and that will be democratic for both partners of the UK is to run the referendum in England and give the people of England and Wales the opportunity to choose between leaving the EU or remaining in the UK. But this is a question the British nationalists will never grow a backbone strong enough to ask, hence constantly distracting everybody with our independence referendum. Given the situation, it is not really Scotland, who voted for the status quo, who should be having a referendum, but England and Wales, because they are the ones that rejected the status quo.

Coming back to Scotland and to democracy, in the EU referendum that took place in June, Scotland was denied a democratic vote and forced to vote as England’s region. Furthermore, when our vote was not in agreement with that of England, it was rejected as disposable. Scotland’s will was overruled. There is no doubt the British establishment will do exactly the same thing again if that is the only way to ensure England MPs keep control of Scotland’s assets. So I have to ask, what is the point for Scotland to take part in such vote? It will be a farce for Scotland as huge as the one in June 2016 was. The only way I would ever support such a vote is if we are offered guarantees that Scotland will not be forced to vote as England’s region and our vote will not be overruled.

Maria F @ 2:54pm:

You raise a very good point.

YouGov were asking recently about whether I supported a ‘referendum on the final deal’ and it was a question I admit I found very hard to answer for reasons as follows:

i) As you point out, some want it on the basis that they see it as a way to overturn Brexit. On the face of it, this certainly does seem to want to ignore the referendum result from 2016 because….

ii) no party has bothered to win a mandate for any such thing, yet we have some politicians who are gung-ho for it telling us that the SNP have failed to win a mandate (having won the Greens’ support, which was all that was necessary because that’s how Parliaments work) for indyref 2. They seem to to just want to circumvent the requirement to have things in manifestos and win based on them. If the Lib Dems, for instance, had done well in 2017 and were in a position to get a 2nd ref through Parliament then it’d be fair enough.

iii) there also isn’t much time for one anyway, presuming 29 March is still Brexit day.

iv) As you imply, the chances are that it wouldn’t change much and, in any event, Scotland would still be in a position where England decided.

v) I don’t like the attitude generally of ‘the plebs did it wrong, so the MPs should over-rule them without having asked for a mandate to do so’. Taken to its logical level, what’s to stop them doing the same should Scotland ever vote Yes? Tie us up knots and say ‘nah, just stay cos we know what’s good for you’? If they’d ignore what English voters want, we can be sure they’d do it to Scots (because they do it already).

On the other hand

vi) I was tempted to say I wanted it in spite of all this because it might be the only way to protect us from whatever the Tories have planned (but that’s only true, of course, if it changes anything).

In short, not at all easy but I think it sounds like your principles on the matter are about right. Not that you needed my approval on that point, but just wanted to add my thoughts to your well-made point 🙂

Hi Roger.

“The Scottish Breakaway”.

As others have pointed out:-

link to youtube.com

Johnny says:

So do the EU let them keep messing about even though they know the options?

They shouldn’t, but they might.

The EU might reason that this disfunctional government is only capable of doing one of two things in the short term – a No Deal (crash and burn) Brexit or a Blind Brexit. TMay might be considered incapable of making the decision that needs to be taken without being replaced by someone worse.

So the EU might go along with a Blind Brexit and defer the big decision in the hope some sanity prevails at WM, like a general election result which results in a government able to take decisions.

If I were TMay (heaven forbid) I’d try for a Blind Brexit, declare a glorious victory in achieving a with-deal Brexit, then call a GE in the hope of either passing on the reins or being able to dump the DUP.

This is also the best chance to thwart IndyRef2 calls, for a while.

This definitely makes for confused reading indeed, I’m impressed that Prof. John Curtis has asked you for the data, clearly he believes that your sources of information is realible.

So, yes, I’m intrigued as to what Prof Curtis makes of this as well.

@Robert Louis says: 7 August, 2018 at 12:59 pm:

“… Seriously O/T, but important.”

To whom do you deduce it is important to and why do you imagine it is so important?

” … Somewhat oddly, the FM did not mention Scotland once, nor did she mention the fact that Scotland does not want brexit and voted by a massive majority against it.”

Oh! Dear! That’s the FM BAAAAD! Again is it?

Some Wings commenters are all too obvious in their political leanings. So I suppose I’ll be standing accused of being disrespectful or something – again now.

Do you perhaps not understand the FM probably realises that the vast majority of those who are likely to read, listen or watch her report already are only too well aware she would, in the first place be talking from a Scottish perspective seeing as she is, after all the First Minister of Scotland, everyone, including the dogs in the street, already knows that the majority of the people of Scotland do not want BRUKEXIT and that is the reason that a massive majority voted against it

But still and all why miss out on any opportunity at taking a skelp at the FM/SG/SNP?

@Derick fae Yell, 1.11, 2.17, @Scottiedog, 1.52

Conclusion. Wait for it.

EFTA EEA is the big tent option that might win a referendum, and then win a Yes vote in that referendum.

Like that conclusion.

@Macart says: 7 August, 2018 at 1:08 pm:

… Ah yes, the ‘I’d rather be reduced to cannibalism than consider independence’ problem. They might just get their wish if they’re not careful.”

Going by the SMSM and unionist MSM that cannibalistic future is hurtling in this direction at a rather disconcerting pace, Macart.

Just today we have these little items:-

UK among worst of life expectancy rises.

Use of online pay-to-watch TV surges ahead.

Cleaners at the Ministry of Justice and a London Council are on strike over pay saying they cannot afford to live in London.

Cash-Strapped police officers have taken a second job with some in dire financial straits according to the Police Federation of England & Wales.

Home equity loans may cost firms billions.

UK House prices rise by 3.3%.

Heatwave bonanza fails to boost sales.

Vulnerable families face energy price rise.

Pubs closing at a rate of 18 per week.

Pound Sterling down -0.08%

Police warn over no-deal Brexit.

Fox- No-Deal most likely Brexit outcome.

For many British Nationalists, the idea of ‘Britishness’ is more important to them than everything else when it comes to politics. Even NO voters who voted for remaining in the EU will always vote to retain the UK no matter what is done to Scotland. The broken promises, the treatment of Scotland and our Parliament is all acceptable to them. Deep down they know this is an unequal union but they are happy playing this junior role so long as they can wave a Union Flag.

I know this as my own father is one of those of British Nationalists.

@Derick fae Yell says: 7 August, 2018 at 2:17 pm:

” … It also defangs the ‘Spanish Veto’ scare. They’re not an EFTA member.”

Oh! For God’s sake!

There isn’t a Spanish veto scare and there never has been and it you do not know how to put that stupid claim to an end you sure as hell fail as grass-roots activists.

Not only has Spain never made such a threat but the Spanish Government have categorically denied they would veto a Scottish Membership if Scotland did have to apply to join the EU.

The guy that kicked off that idiocy was none other than José Manuel Durão Barroso who is a Portuguese politician and nothing to do with Spain. He was previously the 11th President of the European Commission that is the EC not the EU. The EC are the paid for civil servants of the EU but he always said it was his personal opinion. He was also the 115th Prime Minister of Portugal. Thus nothing to do with Spain.

In any case it would be utterly stupid for Spain to veto an independent Scottish bid for EU membership for the Spanish Fishing fleet is the largest in Europe and their fleet relies upon access to the Scottish fishing grounds.

Why would the Spanish government harm their biggest economic industry by vetoing out Scotland? To do so would see Scottish fishing grounds barred to EU member states including Spain.

Look at these news reports:-

link to independent.co.uk

link to politico.eu

link to fullfact.org

Noo awa and dae yer homework and stop spreading Westminster propaganda for the unionist cause.

Print out any or all of those articles and act like grass-roots activists.

Guybrush threepwood @5.28

Totally agree. British Nationalists do not care a jot for Scotland. It may be where they live but they see themselves as British and as long as they can still call themselves British that is all that matters to them. Look at the state Ni Ireland got in to but they did not care as they could still call themselves British. Most discussions I have had with Britnats ends with them saying I am British and I will remain British. Arguments/points of fact etc harm done to people in Scotland – mark them down as not interested. Stockholm syndrome is very strong in these people.

Lol, ‘Prof. Sir John Curtice’, only in the madcap world that is the UK.

Hopefully, one day we will wake up from this nightmare.

O/T

Welcome Theresa

link to twitter.com

bbc news flash! nasty Scots boo bbc’s favourite britnat Mrs [mam] May!

link to thenational.scot

@Dave McEwan Hill
@Guybrush Threepwood

All indications are that around half of 2014 NO voters are BritNats. Illogical attachment with a deep rooted belief system. These will be very hard nuts to crack.

The other half voted NO for a variety of reasons … self interest, security, EU membership, safeguarding state pensions, believed in devolution, believed the Vow, genuine felt the UK was the safer option, Devil you know etc etc. …… as far as I am concerned they are all persuadable.

‘Prof John quoted in the Courier that an independence referendum is not likely in next 5 years as Nicola Sturgeon values her job more than the country and its people.’

If he genuinely said that, then he is even more of an idiot than I thought he was.

Footsoldier7:34

Boris didn’t ridicule them….are you kidding!
You do know he wrote an article on it. It wasn’t to a mate in a cab.
?

I just observed a ‘report’ from the BBC’s Scotland correspondent about May’s meeting with the FM. A completely meaningless ‘report’ from a half-witted mouthpiece for Westminster.

Channel 4 reported from the Edinburgh fringe, a clear metaphor of Scotland’s fringe role in all matters British. The only positive was the FM’s body language when she shook May’s hand at the meeting. There were no sweet smiles.

All this just reminds me of the colossal odds we are up against. And yet we are on course to win providing we hold our nerve and avoid throwing the sucker punch. That is the strategy the FM is following and rightly so.

John Young – 7.14 pm

1018 Scottish voters, fieldwork 21-26 June 2018

All:

“Boris is a senior government minister”

No, he isn’t Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is a backbencher as he resigned his post as Foreign Secretary following the Chequers Agreement.

link to archive.is

Foreign Secretary is now Jeremy Hunt.

“However Boris is a senior government minister and god save us all a potential PM.”

Potentially, and this explains his dog whistle comments around burkas aimed at getting the Far Right Neo-Fascists to support him.

Remember he is getting in with Bannon and the Alt Right.

link to buzzfeednews.com

“God Save the Queen and her Fascist Regime” indeed.

🙁

One_Scot

It would also suggest the Prof supports Independence.

Jason Smoothpiece @ 8.37
Well said Jason
My take on the Burka thing is slightly different…..
No government should be telling anyone what they can and cannot wear.
Full stop no exceptions
I take this line …. not just as a woman despite the long history and the still present issues of being judged by what we wear…
But also as a Scot who’s ancestors were banned from wearing or even owning tartan!!!
This was done then to assimilate people and that’s what’s happening now!!
It is for me no a religious thing,an ethnic thing, or a gender thing, although all those things are important.
But rather it’s that Governments have no business making rules like that not in the 1700 and certainly not now…..
It’s not what they are for and we shouldn’t put up with it.

I think the don’t knows for the last 3 of the 4 tables, are very encouraging. And they also show sadly, why the call for Indy Ref 2 still has to wait.

Seemed to me in Indy Ref 1 the move was from NO to don’t know, and then from don’t know to YES. Hopefully these tables reflect that as as a target for Indy Ref 2.

About the only thing I would ban in so far as clothing or dress goes is the ridiculous stereotype that dictates that everyone (male) in any semi-supervisory posting or above wears as a minimum a collar and tie, or even a suit & tie. Europe, the Americas and the rest of he world get on fine with just smart, casual.

Although I probably could be easily persuaded to ban the bowler hats so beloved of the Black Lodge and the top hats of the old etonians like the Moggster etc.

That 300 years after the English tried to eradicate the Scottish persona we are on the cup of independance is a miracle in itself.

The burka is to the racist xenophobes symbolic of extreme Islamic unfortunately. Which is probably why it gets such bad vibes in Britain.

Yet here in the home of Islam that is Saudi I would estimate that less than 5% of women wear the burka. Yes they do all wear an abaya, most of the women wear a veil in public but especially amongst the younger ones it is becoming more and more common for them to just wear a headscarf with the abaya.

I’m not getting into the whole women’s rights thing etc in the middle east (or Canada atm!) – its just an observation their dress. It’s their tradition that women dress in that way, just as 80% of Saudi males wear a thobe and ghutrah daily.

Tartan Burkas, now there’s a thing.

If the Burka had been invented by a man, great sonnets would have been written about him and about its use in freedom fighting. The Molotov Cocktail would have nothing on him or it.

Imagine if you will, you were a female, living in a culture, that made owning property illegal for women, having a career, freedom of movement, the right to drive, the right to vote, the right to speak and have an opinion in public. All not allowed, for the little women.

Instead, you can belong to a husband or a father, and express these things in the privacy of the family home, if your allowed to do so. And if you question this, your told, your such a precious little thing, and your beauty so great, that no red blooded male would be able to restrain himself from sexually assaulting you, that decency dictates you stay enclosed.

So one day, you turn the tables, taking all of the above at face (no pun intended) value, you neatly turn the tables. You put on the Burka, and in doing so, now you can preserve your dignity and walk in the street, now no-one can judge you on your looks, no-one can see if you are amused, cheerful, angry, sad, grumpy, empathetic, bored, and the list goes on. Your opinions, even unspoken, remain cloaked. And if your opinions are not valued publicly in any event, why should anyone be upset if a person takes control of the means to keep them private.

Studies have shown that female faces are more mobile and expressive than males, and that men deliberately try to cultivate the ‘poker face’ to keep their cards to their chest. Its a power thing.

And the Burka, out powers them every time.

Think if you will of the angry, middle aged, white men of last years Question Time Audience, angry at the poor, angry at foreigners, angry at womens lib, angry at Europe, angry, angry, angry. What was that tweet, ‘not one of these men would give you your ball back’.

Then think how apoplectic the Burka makes them feel, and allow yourself a wee internal smile. Some wee wifey in the middle east out played them beautifully. Makes burning bras look thoroughly silly.

Wouldn’t tartan burkas at the BBC protest be a great thing. Now there’s a thought.

Tomorrow’s National front page:

link to twitter.com

A lot of European athletes staying in the Hotel which is also where my gym is.

I explain to them that I would rather see them win a medal rather than any BritNats.

I also to them that the Butchers Apron is toxic in Scotland and that the thought of “God Bless Lizzie” getting played is just too much for most Scots. Hence our “Anybody but Team GB” stance.

It can be very satisfying enlightening our European cousins on just what is happening in Scotland in 2018 regards Independence and the EU and our relationship with them from south of the border.

FWIW. Nicola is on Theresa May’s shoulder in this run-up to Brexit day and poised to make her move for Scotland. May however knows that in this position, Nicola has the advantage as she can cover all May’s moves. So May wants Nicola to make a move, to hand the advantage to May. That is what today’s meeting in Edinburgh was all about.

To change the analogy, May wants Nicola to pick a horse and place her bet, even though the Brexit ‘horses’ have not been officially declared (ie. including the UK’s horse, the choice of the kind of deal May wants.)

Put simply, if Nicola makes her move for Independence before the Brexit deal between the EU and the UK is agreed and signed, then the UK Government will choose a deal which will include measures which will scupper Scotland’s move to Independence.
But Nicola is far too savvy to fall for that one.

@manandboy

I’m with you on that one.

Ben madigan @ 11.52
Aye and that fool Boris would be indirectly calling for a ban on Tartan or insulting it..
Up with that .. we will not put…
A win win for the ladies I’d say

To me what this shows is that the polls have low numbers and that in itself might skew the answers.

Putting that aside though, not everyone who replied understood the question. For example, the poll was among those ‘likely to vote’ and yet one of them replied that they ‘would not vote’ so there’s that (NB it was a Naw voter)

But on issues of borders I think that there is also the issue of your average voter wishing to be democratic and seeing that the vote IS actually respected – despite not having voted for it themselves. In addition, I think many misunderstood the figurative ‘border in the sea’ and thought it an ACTUAL border in the sea.

Many are fed up listening to Brexit on TV, can’t say I blame em! And they have switched off and don’t actually know or understand therefore some of the proposals that have been put forward in regard to the Irish border.

It reveals more about attitude than intent, I think. Naw voters tend to be reactionary and are in favour of Brexit with a hard Irish border, probably because they’ve always wanted a hard Irish border. But also, not every YES voter voted Remain. Yes voters aren’t a homogenous group who voted Remain, vote SNP and see themselves as left of centre.

We need to remind ourselves that Independence supporting is an issue that EVERY political persuasion can get behind. It’s more about democracy than about a political view point…

@Gary
1,018 respondents is completely standard for a poll, and gives as they say, a 3% margin of error.

Take a step back, clear your mind, and read the comments in the thread.

link to twitter.com

No rage or frothing at the mouth, but a mature and measured demolition of the British Media and BBC.

There’s a video too of Theresa May being jeered in Edinburgh, and you can catch a wee glimpse at the end, it isn’t a small crowd either.

I dunno. I get a profound sense the times they are a-changing. – But not at the BBC.

link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com

link to indyref2.scot

link to scotgoespop.blogspot.com

link to ucas.com

Network Rail to create 200 jobs in Scotland
link to archive.is

link to universalcreditsuffer.com

link to hansardsociety.org.uk

link to infacts.org

Brexit: the “no deal” penalty
link to eureferendum.com

link to vanityfair.com

link to thecanary.co

link to theatlantic.com

iUpdate due from Nicola in October 2018, excellent… of course depending on what happens in the now-time with Theresa & the Tories ‘Blind BrUKexit negotiations’, that iUpdate may come sooner than anybuddy expects.

3 days remaining to go BBC / STV demonstrationers. 🙂

BYOB, all tartans welcome.

breeks , I wonder if that tweet was made to encourage dog’s abuse to be used in a future attack of all things independent /SNP/Nicola/anyone who disagrees?

I well remember that tearing up of the SNP manifesto and the desperate trip to the USA to find some embittered folk to denounce Scotland , the SNP and Alex Salmond over the release of a sick man with a decidedly dodgy conviction,.
He manage to broadcast half of what a senator said about boycotting Scottish goods

Daisy Walker @ 10.48 pm

Thank you for a really interesting take on the wearing of the Burka.

I do not find it acceptable that anyone is forced to dress in any particular way against their wishes.

Equally, I cannot understand the vehement opposition to women wearing robes of their choice.

I see these robes as elegant. If the women wearing them are happy then that is grand.

As for Burkinies (sp?), that is a garment that would very much suit my own latter day sense of modesty and decency!

Tartan Burkas?! How cosy!

Boris Johnston is a huge embarrassment to himself. No one else could possibly be interested in the silly wee twat.

So, since my brain hurts and I’m going to rest it for a week or two (likely story), I’m going to post this thing in small parts, and it’s all about “Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum”. It’s based on the old wild UseNet days or even before, so some isn’t totally relevant, but I’m sure people will be able to adapt it. Wasn’t me found it, someone I thik I remember who, posted the link weeks ago.

The thing is this, in 10 weeks we are likely to be thrown into a short IndyRef campaign, maybe not much more than 3 months. It could of course be later next year, rather than sooner, but I have my doubts.

So I think we need toughening up, and more aware of the techniques of misinformation and misdirection. Trolldom I guess you could say. Not to practice them, but to be able to recognise and ignore, or counter. Now, if nobody like it, tough. If the Rev doesn’t like it of course, he can ask me in his accustomed polite manner to kindly desist old chap.

First is the Conclusion, the first part I posted last night, but will again soon.

BE ALERT! Scotland needs Lerts.

@ Nana

A few sobering ones there Nana. Mind you, there’s little enough to find humour in these days. Although…. the booing of Mayday as she skittered from door to car bracketed by ‘burly men’ did bring a smile. I also note that Ruth came out of her hidey hole for a closed shop photo op. No meet n’ greet. No questions allowed. No accountability. Just click and run.

’bout right for a Tory.

Also noted that those brave souls in PQ didn’t doorstep Mayday as they did the FM. Which given the current state of public trust they enjoy in Scotland (that being next to zero), pretty much didn’t do them any favours. Just what are they for at this point?

Anyroads. Much appreciated Nana. 🙂

The BBC web site reports that Jenny Marra MSP (Labour) has turned 90.0000 into slap in the face £3000,000. Labour economics and denial of workers contractural rights? AND it is on the day that HS2 are reported to pay one quarter of workers over £100,000 in wages.

Almost choked on breakfast. ‘Scottish” Daily Mail a SNP goooood story on “Robin Hood Tax” of Amazon to be diverted to ailing High Streets. ( rates)

However Police Scotland getting it in the neck . Why is it I now feel able to walk our streets anywhere at any time and I am almost 80. I am not naive about these matters as in time past I have been attacked and in the seventies even hospitalised a couple of times. Whatever the SNP and the polis are doing wrong please keep it up!

Ah, the burka. The perfect garment for that bad-hair day when a red sock got in the wash with all your favourite clothes.

‘Faces should be uncovered in public’. A campaign strongly promoted by OWN (Organisation for the welfare of midgies), funded by the skin-care industry but opposed by the bridal-wear industry. Or is it an evil sassenach plot to make western Scotland uninhabitable for 6mths of the year.

cearc @ 9.07 am 🙂

Burkas might just be the perfect solution for getting back up the hill from the beach, through the bracken at sun down at peak midgie attack time!

yesindref2trollslayer @12.13 am and @ 8.24 am

Yes yesindyref2 !

Thank you for providing that insight into trolling techniques.

The more we are aware, the more we can be ready to challenge, correct and then ignore the wannabe underminers.

Thank you from a grateful lert.

Actually folks, this is a seriously valuable tool we all need to have.

@Ghillie
Thanks for the appreciation. I’m going to spin it out, one by one, maybe one a day, because all at once I think it loses the point. Or I lose the plot, not sure which.

What I’ve noticed is that whenever Wings gets new publicity, it also gets new attack. Probably aimed at the new batch of readers. Hence why you get some people passing themselves off as regulars. Ooops, that’s covered by a later point 🙂

DfY,

It would be a good placard slogan for saturday.

‘It’s First Minister to you not Sturgeon’

Hey! Reluctant Nationalist! You have UKIP tendencies and write doggerel. Your contributions to this site are doubly unwelcome.

O/T

Why hasn’t the FM pulled the IndyRef2 trigger yet? Well, I’ve just been reading the SNP 2016 GE Manifesto and read this:

“We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”

Thing is, neither of these conditions in the party’s manifesto have (yet) been met. The opinion polls do not (yet) show clear, sustained majority wanting indy and nor have we (yet) been “…taken out of the EU against our will.” That ‘material change’ has yet to occur.

If, however, on 29th March 2019 becomes the UK’s “Independence Day” (as many Brexiteers are already claiming it to be), and the UK officially leaves the UK, THEN Scotland will have been taken out of the EU against its expressed wish. THEN the FM can legally act to fulfill the party’s manifesto pledge and set a date. But not before.

I suspect this may be what is behind the FM’s perceived ‘hesitancy’ in naming the date for IndyRef2.

@Mark Fletcher
Indeed, and think about style in the past if you’ve noticed, and compare that to a new “name”.

cearc says:

wearing a headscarf of course

It is often forgotten that in Scotland within (my) living memory, an adult woman would rarely leave the house without her head covered. Wee hats or head scarves were the norm to maintain respectability.

Proud Cybernat at 10.44 a.m.

I agree with most of your post. However, when you say that the FM can “legally” act when the manifesto conditions are met, I do not agree. The FM can legally hold a referendum now. Parliament has authorised the holding of a referendum. The only issue is whether it is yet politically wise to do so. There is no law which states that a government can only do what is in its manifesto, nor is there a law which states that a government must do everything in its manifesto. These are purely political decisions.

In making a decision on the timing of a referendum, Nicola Sturgeon has to judge when the announcement will have maximum impact and when the chances of success in the referendum are highest. I am sure we would all rather win a referendum in a year’s time than lose one now. Personally, I trust our FM to make the right judgement on that. But it is a political judgement and not a matter of law.

In her IndyRef2 update in October, the FM should state something along the lines of:

Should Article 50 of the EU Charter be enacted on 29th March, 2019 and the UK departs the EU taking Scotland out also against the expressed will of the people of Scotland then, in accordance with our party’s 2016 election manifesto pledge, there will be a 2nd Scottish Independence Referendum to be held on 1st June, 2019.

Get the boot in, Nicola. And don’t ask them – tell them.

@naina tal

I suspect you are more likely to see John Humphrys in a pub having a drink with someone in a burka than see the media in Scotland ever feel they need to question BrexitisBrexitMay or DarkMoneyDavidson on any subject. They merely exist to deliver the latest UK parties handout literature as gospel fact to the gullible.

Loving the banter of Theresa May being boo’d.

“If it was Glasgow she’d need a hard hat for all the eggs, tomatoes, and Scotch pies we’d throw at her”.
“Aye, but we’re stockpiling food for Brexit”.

Well it made me giggle out loud.

@HandandShrimp

The FM does have them confused. 🙂

It also appears that ‘fishing’ has become a favoured pastime with journos and the political class.

Guess they’ll just have to wait till October then. 😎

O/T:

Here is just one example, taken from that twitter thread linked to on this thread, of why there are so many strange referendum, election and opinion poll results.

This guy:- Martin Lipinski – asks this question on the twitter link posted on this thread. He is replying to those Scots who are commenting upon the Theresa May visit to Edinburgh where she gets roundly booed.

“Yet you want to “rejoin” the EU with it’s unelected leaders. Great logic.”

He then gets challenge on that claim of unelected leaders of the EU and retorts:-

“When did you vote for Juncker? Or any of the others in charge? Do you even know their names? I can’t provide a positive answer to any of those questions. I’m sure you can’t either.”

Now this exposes him for the idiot he is and he is not untypical of the types who blight Twitter with their claptrap.

The truth being that the former Luxembourg Prime Minister, Jean-Claude Juncker, is The President of the European Commission. He is not thus the EU leader but is the EC president or leader.

Yet Martin Lipinski, thinks that Jean-Claude Juncker is a leader of the European Parliament and he, Lipinski, then says, “and all the other leaders”, who he cannot even name and thinks no one else can either.

The fact, instead of the fake fact, is that the entire, “European Commission”, over which Juncker presides are, “Commissioners”, (the clue is in the name). They are the paid for Civil Servants of the European Parliament. a.k.a. Paid for employees. Thus they selected and given their jobs by the elected Members of European Parliament.

As such Juncker has absolutely no decision making powers he is commissioned to carry out the decisions made by the elected members of the European Parliament. However, like the civil servants of the Westminster Parliament, their remit is also to research and advise the European parliament and the European parliamentarians – who then decide for themselves if they take their Civil Service’s advice.

Quite obviously Martin Lipinski doesn’t understand how the European Union works and I have no doubt also has no idea of how the EU member state Veto works and thus he votes accordingly in his unmitigated ignorance and stupidity in the belief that the EU leadership are unelected tyrants. He is your typical BR UKEXITeer.

Incidentally, Mr Lipinski later ask the Scots Twitterers who they think will pay for their benefits if not the English taxpayers. One must wonder why such ignorant people are even allowed to be enfranchised to vote.

Re the Labour MSP Marra and her allegation of a “£300,000” payout by NHS Tayside.

Jenny Marra was also well out of order and a bit spiteful in 2012

PHARMACY MILLIONAIRES

link to pharmaceutical-journal.com

Robert Peffers

Excellent post sir.

Don’t be put off by the Bully Boy tactics of a certain individual. That guy has problems trying to fit a Scots mind into his English body.

The majority will respect your views, so keep them coming.

PS

Did the Bully Boy in question apologise to you for telling you to Fuck Off the other day?

If he hasn’t yet done so then may I suggest he rights that wrong in his next post.

I registered back home in Scotland to vote yes in 2014. Back down in England i voted leave the EU ( even though a committed remainer) as i knew if Scotland voted remain this would force indy ref 2. We need our referendum before brexit is complete, or they will hold the ‘ scotch fast’for eternity.

Nicola’s Dilemma?

As far as announcing a date for a second Independence referendum goes what is the “best” Brexit outcome in the coming months?

That one is easy to answer, no withdrawal agreement is reached with the EU and the UK leaves the EU with no deal and then guaranteed chaos for many months if not years. No problem for Nicola in calling a date then, she would call it within days of No Deal being announced and it is this scenario which would give the absolute greatest possibility of a Yes victory.

However for these very reasons I believe that it also the least likely outcome, Westminster don’t want this and neither do the EU so some compromise outcome to keep the show on the road at least until the end of the transition period is more likely. For this to be possible the right form of wording in the agreement will have to be found over the Northern Ireland border issue. Not an easy task but not insurmountable either if both sides want to kick the can further down the road for now.

Next up then sometime in the New Year is that the withdrawal agreement and the future framework will have to be passed both in the EU and Westminster. The EU shouldn’t be a problem as there wouldn’t have been an agreement without their backing in the first place.

That leaves the HoC where it could go either way and Nicola has to consider both outcomes in any plans she has for a second Referendum on Independence. Let’s first assume that the HoC reject the “deal” which will need the support of the SNP to do so then we are most likely looking at a “peoples vote” and EU2 with an extension to article 50 agreed by the EU to allow the time for a vote to take place.

This possibility is not good for the opportunity to call a Indyref2 particularly if the outcome of such a vote was to be Remain and the whole thing about leaving the EU is called off. Nicola Sturgeon would be put in a very difficult position with this outcome and a date for a future referendum could be put off indefinitely under these circumstances. Something I’m sure no one want’s to hear.

The reality though is that such a result would also end in chaos being caused throughout the UK, not least within the Tory party itself which would break apart. It’s highly likely that the SNP would benefit from such chaos so instead of a referendum might the SNP stand on a certain General Election with Independence front and centre of it’s manifesto? A big gamble but still something that has to be considered.

Now let’s say that the SNP abstain on the vote to accept or reject the deal and the Government win so there is no EU2, we leave the EU on 29th March and enter the transition period until Dec 2020. What would that mean for Nicola’s decision on when to call Indyref2?

This is the so called “Blind Brexit” and that one doesn’t leave much wriggle room at all and makes for a very difficult decision from Nicola. The easy option for Nicola in this case is also to delay making that decision on Indyref2 until nearer to Dec 2020!

This is why it’s a dilemma, so many outcomes are possible and any one could happen. We don’t even know yet what all possible outcomes are and mine are just guesses same as everyone else’s.

Only one thing is certain and that is that there will be a 2nd Independence referendum and it will decide Scotland’s future direction. Choosing the time to get that decision right and give the best possible outcome of a Yes victory is a job for someone with the wisdom of King Solomon.

All I believe, is that we couldn’t have a better person in place than Nicola Sturgeon for when it comes to making that decision. Guess we will all just have to be patient, for now.

schrodingers cat 7th, 8:54pm

Thank you!

Of course I didn’t believe the bloody ‘Spanish Veto’ scare story!

But people did.

What EU citizens didn’t believe, correctly, was the line in the White Paper that Scotland could just stay in the EU via A48.

I’m rather ashamed to admit that I believed it, and spread the WP line, despite it being obviously debatable, at best. And despite it being contrary to what three successive EU Presidents, and the Commission, have said on multiple occasions. I was wrong. Must do better.

We cannot repeat the failed strategy of 2014 if we want to win.

@ Cearc, watch yer Acme wringers! Made in the Calton apparently. The bilers are scarce & eagerly sought after by keepers who bile stags heids in them!

Thepnr says:

Nicola’s Dilemma?

I agree with your analysis.

Also playing on Tory minds will be the possibility of IndyRef2 and how they might best avoid it. They must know that if circumstances justify IndyRef2 then those same circumstances mean a Yes result becomes possible, even probable.

What matter most to the Tories? I reckon their highest priority must be to maintain the UK, no Tory PM wants to go into history as the one who killed the UK! Their next priority is to achieve Brexit, any Brexit. And third on their list is to achieve the least damaging Brexit within their self imposed red lines.

If I’m right, they will act to minimise the ‘excuses’ for IndyRef2.

I also reckon they will throw absolutely everything at BritNats winning the next Holyrood election. The dark money will flow in, dark crafts will be deployed. Their media will try everything. Fearmongering, lies, fake news, faux promises like we have never seen the like of. They know if they can prevent a pro Indy majority, the threat is over, probably permanently. Devolution will be rolled back. Nothing can then stop Project Greater England.

In an ideal world, the Tories will do something really stupid, cause widespread indignation in Scotland, and ‘invite’ IndyRef2 under favourable (for us) circumstances.

Patience is difficult! In Nicola we trust!

@frogesque

Or stick with the original and best.

link to youtube.com

I work in Glasgow and today trying to keep appointments in around the City have been an unmitigated disaster.

The Road Race has for some unknown reason has been designed to loop the City and stop all forms of road transport.

I was in Milngavie this morning and wanted to travel 2-3 miles down into Balmore Industrial Estate.

Boclair Rd Blocked at the end of it.
Canniesburn Roundabout block at my chosen exit.
Temple RD closed at Junction with Cowal St,
Great Western Rd Blocked, Hyndland Rd Blocked
Dumbarton Rd Blocked, Rosevale St for the Expressway blocked
Motorway then up to Springburn Rd, Blocked,
around that to Colston Rd, Blocked,
around that to Springburn Rd Blocked,
Kirkintilloch Rd Blocked,

I spent 2.5 Hours trying to travel 2-3 miles?
One client today called of going to their work as they couldn’t figure out a route to get in?
Another should have visited our offices but again, gave up trying to get there.

I noticed that at every junction that I failed to cross 2 black men in hi vis jackets. Not one of them had reasonable English in order give me a clue how to get to my destination?

I asked Policemen at different junctions and they too claimed to be lost as to how I might travel?

Glasgow City Council had no contact number to make inquiries
nut do have a very long form that should take half an hour if you would like to get advice on having food parcels delivered to your stranded car.

I’m all for Glasgow hosting events in order to raise the economy but this ridiculous route must have cost the City £10’s Millions.

There must be thousands of barriers that have been hired, positioned and to be uplifted.
Hundreds if not thousands of people kitted out hired to lean on the barriers at every junction.
Who pays for the Police Presence?

During my 2.5 hour tour of blocked junction roads, I never seen or heard of a single cyclist?

Why didn’t they hold the road race around Loch Lomond and keep
the City economy working?
Why didn’t the race start at daylight 6am and finish before 9am?
Why are we showcasing the Pot Holes and Litter of Glasgow Suburbs
when we are surrounded by natural beauty spots?

I’d love to know the estimated cost of holding this road race, and the impact that it must have had on business between lost revenue and lost wages from employees who couldn’t make work.

If it must finish in the city then why not one access route closed between Glasgow Green and Loch Lomond or wherever?

Please learn a lesson from this most stupid of “organised” sports events.

n

@ Albert Herring 2.05

Many thanks.