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Removing all doubt

Posted on June 18, 2013 by

We almost feel sorry for the UKIP candidate for Aberdeen Donside, poor Otto Inglis. All day today he’s been pictured on news bulletins standing silently like a spare object at a wedding while broadcasters interviewed his party’s leader Nigel Farage instead.

donfarage3

Then again, after the brutal shoeing Mr Farage took from STV’s Bernard Ponsonby this evening, perhaps Mr Inglis will be feeling he got the best end of the deal.

Desperately trying to whip up another media storm like the one around his last visit to Scotland, Farage made some crassly offensive comments – described by the STV evening news bulletin as an “astonishing attack” – comparing elements of the SNP to the English Defence League. But Ponsonby wasn’t prepared to let that slide.

————————————————————————————————–

NIGEL FARAGE: We have an English Defence League – I would be in absolutely no doubt in my total condemnation of them and their methods. So there is an edge to Scottish nationalism that I think is rather unpleasant.

BERNARD PONSONBY: One where even a parallel with the EDL is appropriate?

NF: I think it probably is, yes.

BP: You said some roots of the SNP were anti-English, what were you thinking of?

NF: Oh, if you go back to, before, er, you know, way back into the 30s and 40s, uh, you know, some of the people that founded it were profoundly anti-English.

BP: Who?

NF: The vast majority –

BP: Can you name one?

NF: No I can’t, but I’ve, but I’ve, but I’ve read the history of the party –

BP: Would you like to justify the statement, then?

NF: Yes I would, because they won the Stirling by-election because they stopped being anti-English and started being seen to be pro-Scottish.

BP: There was a Stirling by-election?

NF: That’s exactly where, that’s exactly – sorry?

BP: Stirling by-election?

NF: In the 60s, yeah. And it’s exactly the same –

BP: There wasn’t a by-election in Stirling in the 60s.

NF: It was a Parliamentary election.

BP: There wasn’t a by-election in Stirling in the 60s.

NF: Right, the Parliamentary election they won.

————————————————————————————————–

We can find absolutely nothing in either the Wikipedia page of by-elections from 1950 to 1979, or the page of “exceptional” results which goes all the way back to 1906. The only thing that might even remotely fit the bill is Winnie Ewing’s famous 1967 victory in Hamilton, which is a fair distance (a 40-minute drive, says Google Maps) from Stirling.

The only general elections of the 1960s were those of 1964 and 1966, and the SNP didn’t return a single MP in either of them. We can only assume, then, that a party leader who campaigned in Edinburgh last month for a by-election in Aberdeen hasn’t improved his geographical knowledge of Scotland much in the intervening period.

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    116 to “Removing all doubt”

    1. iain taylor (not that one) says:

      plonker

    2. cynicalHighlander says:

      ” – a 40-minute rive, according to Google Maps – from Stirling”
       
      ? Was that a rave or a drive, just asking?

      Obviously one finger typing is far to slow.

    3. HandandShrimp says:

      Nigel’s knowledge of Scottish politics is truly quite remarkable.
       
      It has been a strange day.
       
      There is this UKIP car crash interview and on a visit to the Scotsman I saw some true foaming at the mouth bile at the latest drop in crime in Scotland. Anyone that says we cybergnats are the crazy ones ought to read a Scotsman story where they struggling to damn the SNP. The Unionist wing nuts go into complete enraged Col Blimp mode.

    4. An Duine Gruamach says:

      What a pillock. 

    5. Peter Mirtitsch says:

      This was simply wonderful. I was up at my 81 year old Mum’s, and we both had a wonderful belly laugh at this clown. Bernard makes a habit of asking awkward but elegantly SIMPLE questions such as this. Remember when he put Gideon Osborne on the back foot about the Sterling (near Tillicoultry?) question?
       

    6. DanTDog says:

      Wonder if there’s a corresponding word in the Doric for “pillock”…?

    7. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “? Was that a rave or a drive, just asking?”

      I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU COULD POSSIBLY MEAN.

      (I thought a more colourful possibility would have been “reive”.)

    8. HandandShrimp says:

      Dan
       
      Glaikit would cover it.

    9. David Halliday says:

      Not that I actually give a damn but I wonder if this was some half-remembered mash-up between the Hamilton by-election and Robert McIntyre’s Motherwell win, which was a general election one, in 1945. McIntyre was Provost of Stirling from the late 60s to mid 70s.

    10. DanTDog says:

      Aye…if only it would cover Farage…permanently…;-)

    11. Baheid says:

      @DanTDog
       
      Gipe – a stupid, awkward, foolish person.
       
       

    12. DanTDog says:

      Cheers…keep ’em coming…love it!!
       

    13. handclapping says:

      The man is obviously a gnat with a memory and attention span to match.

    14. Marcia says:

      There was a by-election in 1971 in the Stirling Burghs Constituency but Dr Mac (Robert McIntyre ) came second to Labour’s Harry Ewing. Maybe Farage was talking of Dr Mac’s victory in Motherwell in April 1945? However I doubt it.

    15. Peter Mirtitsch says:

      “Welll, the SNP Nazis did break the unwritten law…”

      “Which was?”

      “Well, it was never written down, but a mate of mine said they did, and that is good enough for me.”

      (With apologies to the Monty Python team)

    16. barry gadgie says:

      gowk. as in ‘ye daft gowk’.

    17. pictishbeastie says:

      Ye ken at this rate Fanny Farage is going to start disliking us! 

    18. handclapping says:

      @Peter Miritsch
      Careful there, son. We’ll not have you putting the BT Positive case for the Union on this blog. Not without due warning, so your warning’s due.
      /ENDIRONY/

    19. Dorothy Devine says:

      DanTDog, my favourite Aiberdeen expression is ” feel” which means stupid – don’t ask me where or how it just does!

    20. Albert Herring says:

      dunderheid

    21. G H Graham says:

      Some folks just don’t know when to give up.
       
      Might I suggest Mr. Farage saves his breath for his porridge?

    22. AnneDon says:

      There is a story on The Guardian Scottish page about a UKIP event in an hotel being ‘hounded out’ of Aberdeen due to UAF ‘thugs’. Farage claims it was cancelled due to police advice.
      Buried in the story is the hotel’s denial, where they state that UKIP never confirmed their provisional booking, and the hotel is just very busy.
      For a man so fond of being photographed with a pint in his hand, Farage seems curiously unable to organise anything in a pub or an hotel.
      These cretins are given too much subservience by the MSM. I’m delighted that Scottish journalists are finally waking up to what a plonker this guy is. (See my comments on the other page about events on the Canongate).
       

    23. handclapping says:

      I suppose in BT’s eyes that that this nice man with his sensible policies can lead our Government, strip out the pretendy wee and revert to the Scottish Grand Committee but sitting in Scotland once a week is in itself a Positive Case for the Union.
      OMG vote YES, please.

    24. Lurker in the Wings says:

      “Might I suggest Mr. Farage saves his breath for his porridge?”  Aye, a few weeks in Peterheid or the Bar-L for trying to stir up the populace would show him. 😉
       

    25. Jiggsbro says:

      Farage seems curiously unable to organise anything in a pub or an hotel.
       
      Or a brewery.

    26. Cath says:

      We should stop and spare a thought right now for some of those in the Scottish Labour party who are driven only by blind hatred of the SNP. This must be a very difficult time for them, poor souls, as they wrestle tribal loyalty with “man, that guy hates the SNP even more than we do…he’s willing to call them all Nazis on TV…I might have to vote for them.”

    27. Bydand22 says:

      Do enough people in Scotland know or care enough about independence?  I worry it’ll be a ‘no’ vote.  Devomax on the bill, too, would have been prudent.

    28. Bill C says:

      Dorothy Devine says:
      1

      DanTDog, my favourite Aiberdeen expression is ” feel” which means stupid – don’t ask me where or how it just does!
      My father was from Buchan (heart of Doric territory) and I live on Deeside and although I am a native Glasgow my understanding of “feel” is that it does indeed mean stupid or daft and originates from the word “fool” as in the court “fool”.  I think that most Noblemen had court “fools” in medieval times. Up here the most famous is ‘The Laird of Udny’s Feel’.  All that aside there is no doubt that Farage is a “feel”, I’m just glad he obviously revels in the role. He is rapidly becoming a real asset to the YES campaign.
       

    29. Vincent McDee says:

      Wait!  Farage can NOT be a really very cunning plant by the Cybernat Black Squad? It can’t be.
       
      This kind of support must be costing the BT a few friends. Surly.

    30. Cath says:

      “This kind of support must be costing the BT a few friends.”
       
      Given there is a chance of a Tory UKIP coalition, with him as deputy leader in place of Nick Clegg after 2015, it surely can’t be doing a lot of good for Better Together.
       
      I’d go for a more tin-foil hat conspiracy theory though – Scottish Skier’s “the Tories secretly want indy” coupled with some encouragement from Dave for Nigel to come north.

    31. Lurker in the Wings says:

      Why does this remind me of Niggle Falange?
          http://youtu.be/8nxo0fS2VMM

    32. KOF says:

      barry gadgie says:18 June, 2013 at 10:52 pm

      gowk. as in ‘ye daft gowk’.

      Gowk also means cuckoo, if I remember correctly. Also very apt. 😉

    33. Bill C says:

       Here’s the story of “The Laird of Udny’s Feel”.
      One night Jimmy [Fleeman], the Laird of Udny’s wise fool, stopped at a farmhouse to break his journey. A packman offered him “something through his ale” to cure a cold, but instead put in the scob [something scooped] from his pipe – the contributors are uncertain whether it was the tobacco bree [i.e. the saliva from the stem], spice [snuff], or the dirry, ash or dottle from the bowl of the pipe. However, at the next Aikey Fair, the fool was revenged: he told a recruiting sergeant-major that the packman wanted to join the army. The packman took the king’s shilling in ignorance and had to buy himself out with twenty golden guineas.
      Interestingly both “feels” enjoyed/enjoy a pint, but I think that is where the similarities end. Jimmy Fleeman was a wise “feel”, Nigel on the other hand ………………?
       

    34. Jimbo says:

      Farage’s bawbaggery knows no ends. He is now claiming he was hounded into moving his Aberdeen press conference.
       
      “After hosting lunch for about a dozen activists and officials in a hotel some miles from the Marriott, Farage alleged the move was caused by fear of the “undemocratic yobs” who had forced him to retreat under police escort into a locked pub last month.”
       
      http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/jun/18/nigel-farage-aberdeen-protest-fears

    35. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      DOESN’T ANYONE EVER CLICK ETC ETC?

    36. deewal says:

      Just make sure all you YES supporter’s in Aberdeen Donside get out and vote for McDonald on thursday. If you are not from there then make sure you tell anyone you know who does live there the same.  Just Get Out The Vote. Thursday is Crucial.
      Vote YES.

    37. Scotsfox says:

      A good Scottish word to describe La Farage is Gomeril

    38. Jimbo says:

      DOESN’T ANYONE EVER CLICK ETC ETC?
       
      I normally read the article first – then go back and do the clickies.
       
      From now on I’ll click first and comment later. 😀

    39. Marker Post says:

      Glaikit, gype, gowk all cover it – usually in the North East prefixed with the word “fuckin”

    40. Atypical_Scot says:

      Otto? Otto…? 
       
      Or is it oh,oh…?
       
       

    41. B. says:

      Clueless tard is clueless.
      As well as dramatically less-photogenic than the cat with the same name.
       
      Let’s face it: Nigel Farage is the comedy version of ‘Chancellor Sutler: The Wilderness Years’.

    42. joe kane says:

      Even Better Together have banned Farage and UKIP from joining them.

    43. Holebender says:

      Jamie Fleeman, the Laird of Udny’s feel, once famously gave a cutting response to someone who called him feel in a disparaging way. He said “I’m the Laird of Udny’s feel, faa’s feel are yee?”
       
      Farrage (do all UKIP types have “foreign” names?) is just a daftie, a harmless simpleton.

    44. kininvie says:

      Hey, look -the Scotsman’s got something worth reading…in fact, wonderfully worth reading… http://www.scotsman.com/news/barra-collins-a-union-of-convenience-1-2970350  How did that one slip past the night editor’s eager eyes?

    45. Bill C says:

      @’Holebender says:     

      Jamie Fleeman, the Laird of Udny’s feel, once famously gave a cutting response to someone who called him feel in a disparaging way. He said “I’m the Laird of Udny’s feel, faa’s feel are yee?”
      I remember my dad telling me that one over 50 years ago. Thanks for the memory.  I think Farage may well turn out to be Cameron’s “feel”.

    46. David McCann says:

      kininvie.
       
      Its gone!!

    47. Doug Daniel says:

      I love the idea that there was going to be a mass anti-UKIP protest in Aberdeen. It’s a nice thought, but I’d sooner put my money on Willie Young winning the by-election…
       
      Otto’s a good, old fashioned British name, isn’t it? I can see why Otto would join the party that hates Europe. Still, there’s always a chance he could spring a surprise, so we’d better not Otto-matically write off his chances.
       
      Ahem…

    48. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Its gone!!”

      It’s showing up here now for me:

      http://www.scotsman.com/news/barra-collins-a-union-of-convenience-1-2970350

      You have to be careful not to let WordPress interpret a link as having a space on the end, eg by putting it in the same line as the rest of the text, or it’ll break.

    49. kininvie says:

      @ David McCann
      So it has! But I think it ran out of time (published yesterday) rather than anything more sinister!  Anyway, here’s the central pasage – you can tell it was written by an Irishman!:
      “Our shared need for independence comes from the same poetical origins. Whether you’re talking Hugh MacDiarmid or Padraic Pearse, our sense of entitlement to independence is documented in our collective passion for the arts. That is why I am not worried about an independent Scotland. The need for independence is not fiscal or even rational. It’s emotional, necessary and, like love, it is something that you cannot explain, whether talking about the first tender kiss or the last glimpse of a lover as they journey into the sunset. Love, we must remember, is never smooth sailing but wouldn’t you rather be married for love than married for money? And won’t this be beautifully realised in Scottish culture secretary Fiona Hyslop’s brave new world for funding in the arts?
      Because this need for independence cannot be rationalised; there will never be a good time for it. Like planning for a child, if you looked at it logically – let’s just say the world would be a less crowded place.”

    50. pmcrek says:

      Good to see that public school education is not going to waste…

    51. clochoderic says:

      He should have set fire to himself and kicked the fuck out a baggage -handler and a taxi driver .
       

    52. CameronB says:

      Ah, Farage. The gift that keeps on giving. I wonder if Better Together have realised just how crassly undemocratic they were when refusing UKIP’s input? I wonder if Nigel has wasted any police time yet?

    53. Macart says:

      Don’t think I’ve stopped laughing at this car crash all night. This cracker has Westminster and the media hopping from one foot to the other and every time he pays a visit to Scotland comes away looking hapless and hopeless. Mibbies they should just do as we do and try laughing at him? The do say laughter is the best medicine. 😀

    54. john king says:

      Is it really beyond the wit of tv crews to avoid pointing their cameras or sound mikes towards that object,
      give it no oxygen and it will soon wither and die 

    55. john king says:

      “Might I suggest Mr. Farage saves his breath for his porridge?”
      guaranteed he puts sugar on it
        

    56. john king says:

      “Farage seems curiously unable to organise anything in a pub or an hotel.”
       
      maybe he should try organizing something in a brewery?

    57. john king says:

      B. says:
      yea cannie be that ugly man tak the paper bag aff yer heid
      yea daft gowk

    58. CameronB says:

      Personally, I hope he continues to spout his nonsenses about Scotland. He is a buffoon of the highest order, and long may we be able to witness him going into meltdown. If anyone is having difficulty in putting a face to English nationalism (of the nasty kind), and rabid capitalism, all they need do is think of this balloon. Farage’s outlook is what Scotland will invite on itself if we vote no. I think it would help if he was in our faces more often, just as a reminder of what the dangers are of remaining in the union. Perhaps this is why Better Together said UKIP were not welcome?

    59. john king says:

      CameronB says:
      19 June, 2013 at 6:09 am

      Personally, I hope he continues to spout his nonsenses about Scotland.

      mwea I suppose, you have a point there,
      trouble is I see the face and hear the loud (=right) voice and I want to throw things at the tv,  
      but yea you have a point, if that creature makes my skin crawl then he’s going to do damage to the better no campain
       
       

    60. Dan Simmie says:

      Most interesting part of his visit for me was the line in one paper that claimed he had planned to meet with an independent councillor in Aberdeen.This independent councillor is a  senior member of the rag bag group who currently run the council.Some of this group are just slightly to the right of Farage and openly share his dislike of Europe.
      It would put the Labour group in a very uneasy position if some of their allies were cosying up to UKIP. 

    61. Davy says:

      “Weel hit me on the fanny wee a kipper and cae me one of the big girls” Farage actually found Aberdeen, did he plant a union jack and claim it for the british empire.
      I personally think he’s at the lower end of numptyness, and is so stupid he still cant understand why the northern natives dont atuomatically bow down to his “wisdom”. Surely a nice southern word is the best description of him “plonker”.
       
      Vote NO – get Farage or similar.
       
      Vote YES – gain your country.
       
      Hail Alba.
       
       

    62. Thomas William Dunlop says:

      DanTDog 
       
      I woukld say Daftie would be appropriate if he was completely harmless…………..But since he isn’t I’l just have to fall back on my Lanarkshire background and say he is a choob (or a numptie, baw-heid or arsehole)

    63. Alastair wright says:

      Malysian for fanny is faraj, just saying. (think the spelling is correct)

    64. john king says:

      o/t
      Seems some numpty behind the bar at the Bruce Springsteen concert thinks the emancipation of 16 year olds extends to them becoming the leader of a political party,
      when Ruth Davidson tried to buy David Mundell ? (some thing she wants to share with us) a drink there, they wouldn’t serve her as she didn’t have proof she was over eighteen 
      personally I would be flattered but just how stupid can anybody be?
      I know it’s likely the didn’t know who she was but really, not by anyone’s reckoning does she look under 18?

    65. john king says:

      Malysian for fanny is faraj, just saying. (think the spelling is correct)
      so that’s what the smell is when he’s around, who knew?

    66. CameronB says:

      @ john king
      Hope you don’t mind, but I’m going to ask the Rev. to remove your last comment. We want to encourage female readers too WoS, not drive them away.
       
      @ Rev. Stuart Campbell
      Rev. would you mind removing John’s comment. I’ve never been called a prude, but I think that was just unnecessary.

    67. EphemeralDeception says:

      I really don’t understand the swapping London for Brussels theme. Today we have London AND Brussels. Where Scots are most upset with policy and decisions made in London.

      That argument also freely admits that we are in a London run dictatorship, which we should keep.  Why is a London dictatorship of any interest to Scotland?

    68. scottish_skier says:

      @EphemeralDeception

      Yes, the Swapping Brussels for London is not Independence slogan is somewhat perplexing. 

      I trust he’s advocating a Yes vote in 2014 followed by an independent Scotland voting to leave the EU?

    69. Dorothy Devine says:

      Thanks BillC and Holebender – I normally consider myself at least of average intelligence but in all my 66 years never made the connection ‘twixt “feel” and ” fool” = wonder what that makes me??

    70. Fergie35 says:

      Nigel is a star isn’t he!
      Is he really getting the correct publicity and attention he would like?

    71. Simon says:

      I told my partner about the Barra Collins article so they went to the Scotsman website and searched on “Ireland independence”. The site returned “no results… showing results for Ireland indecency”

    72. les calthorps says:

      Pleased to see so many fouk appreciate Jamie Fleemin, have been a fan of his these past sixty years.
      In my youth we had a saying for someone who lacked common gumption—–they were called DALEERIT JAURIES.                                                                       Must check the SND and see if that one has been collected.

    73. Archibald Berwick Melrose [aka Archie] says:

      @ John King 5:41 am – “Farage seems curiously unable to organise anything in a pub or an hotel.”
      Funny you should say that John. There ah was waiting for the the bus outside Aberdeen Town Hall last night when Scotland’s Finest Farage riot control officers turned up resplendent in yellow fluorescent waistcoats. All 2 of them marched to and fro before pretending to be immovable statues at the entrance to the Town Hall. Fifteen minutes later they gave up waiting for Farage and riot and toodled off.
      On mah bus headed towards the infamous Haudagain roundabout I saw the Farage convoy going into the city and obviously it had been held up by the amount of steam pouring out of the engine and sweary words out of the windows.
      I did chuckle. 🙂
      @ Rev Stu – I was going to attach a photo of the bobbies having fun but am not sure where to do it on WOS.

    74. Max says:

      “Feral”, “subsidised”, “bankrupt”, “starving”, Nigel Fagage says such nice things about us Scots.
       
      “F#cking Idiot”, would sum up our response in return. 

    75. Morgan McKeown says:

      The main thrust of Farage`s assertion was correct. The SNP have had various splits over the 70 years over radical elements from within that have had anti English sentiments. 1955 group and their “The English: are they human” pamphlet. His time frames might be out but his main assertion was correct
      Then of course within the nationalist movements are settler watch, siol nan Gadheil with their rabid anti English sentiments and facist overtones and blacklists of business deemed to support the union. 
      Then there is this misconception that the SNP are the only nationalist independence ticket in town….they are not. Then there is the neo nationalist,  authoritarian spectre that says. No one who supports the union is allowed to have a say. Then there was Sir Chris Hoy being labelled as a bigot and a ("Tractor" - Ed) by cyber nats then you know that Farage`s assertion does have some credence. That somehow any UK politician, sports person, scottish person or celebrity who supports the UK position as a sovereign country. Has no right to pass comment on anything to do with Scotland or the independence debate.
      AND
      The assertion that UKIP should not have a say in Scottish politics is tantamount to saying that the SNP in Westminster should shut up and be quiet after all their number in Westminster amounts to 0.92% of the total number of MP`s.    
          

    76. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “@ Rev Stu – I was going to attach a photo of the bobbies having fun but am not sure where to do it on WOS.”

      Upload it to Twitpic or Tinypic or Flickr or anywhere like that, and post the link.

    77. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “@ john king
      Hope you don’t mind, but I’m going to ask the Rev. to remove your last comment. We want to encourage female readers too WoS, not drive them away.

      @ Rev. Stuart Campbell
      Rev. would you mind removing John’s comment. I’ve never been called a prude, but I think that was just unnecessary.”

      I was pretty uncomfortable with it when I saw it too, but deleting things which seem to be intended only as (slightly off-colour) jokes rather than designed to offend is a slippery slope. I’d invite John to consider whether he wants it removed.

    78. Cath says:

      Morag, for one thing, if you go back to the 1930s many in the British establishment were Nazi sympathisers – to a far greater and more dangerous extent than any SNP fringe lnuatics at the time were. So probably best not to go there really.
       
      And secondly there really hasn’t been “abuse” of anyone holding a pro-union position. There have been accusations of abuse which have had no basis in fact and have been backed up by some of the most lame, non-abusive tweets going. Compare and contrast with the genuinely huge abuse given to “cybernats” – ie anyone who dares be pro-independence, Wullie Rennie and Labour attempting to stop anyone with the wrong views getting jobs etc. Again, best not to go there.

      Nigel Farage can spout whatever bollocks he wants – that’s his right. It’s the right of everyone else to be able to call him on it.

    79. Juteman says:

      @Morgan.
      Where was Hoy called a bigot and a ("Tractor" - Ed)?

    80. Cath says:

      “Yes, the Swapping Brussels for London is not Independence slogan is somewhat perplexing. I trust he’s advocating a Yes vote in 2014 followed by an independent Scotland voting to leave the EU?”
       
      To be fair, that appears now to be the main thrust of the unionist argument as well. If you keep Sterling, expect any kind of co-operation with England etc, it’s not “real independence”. I’m not quite sure how they square this with asking us to vote for no more powers at all and keep all sovereignty at Westminster. Perplexing in the extreme.

    81. Cath says:

      “Where was Hoy called a bigot and a ("Tractor" - Ed)?”
       
      He was called a ("Tractor" - Ed). As it turned out, it was by a unionist in one of their usual slurs against independence supporters. Of course, the Telegraph, North British Telegraph and others simply reported it as a slur against independence supporters.

    82. Juteman says:

      I saw that comment Cath. 
      The only ‘abuse’ i saw was someone calling him a tosser.
      It’s important that we don’t let unionist assertions become ‘facts’.

    83. Iain says:

      @Morgan McKeown
      ‘The assertion that UKIP should not have a say in Scottish politics is tantamount to saying that the SNP in Westminster should shut up and be quiet after all their number in Westminster amounts to 0.92% of the total number of MP`s.’

      No it’s not, it would only be so if the SNP had 0% of Westminster MPs (like UKIP).
      I’m perfectly happy that UKIP have their over-hyped publicity jaunts to Scotland, just as I’m happy that people are allowed to protest against them. What I think is laughable is the constant whining (shared with Galloway) that they have a ‘right’ to be listened to. It reminds me of the endless chorus from religionists, that they have a ‘right’ to have their beliefs respected. No they don’t, they have a right to hold them and espouse them, just as everyone else has a right to ignore, deride, sneer at and protest against those beliefs.

    84. MajorBloodnok says:

      @MK

      [insert animated tumbleweed gif here]

    85. DRD Woodward says:

      Morgan McKeown – Semantics and Judgement … what you have written is basically correct, but you fail to put your views into context!

      At what point should the Poles in 1939 have taken an anti German position, for that matter at what point should the British have taken an anti German position leading up to 1939?

      When taking that position do they automatically become nationalists, fascists, neo-nationalists, authoritarian, dictatorial.
      At what point does the abuse of a partner justify a feeling of anger?

      At what point does the behaviour of another nation towards your own, justify a feeling of dislike and sense of being anti that behaviour.

      When they persistently steal your sheep?

      When they persistently lie to you?

      When they amass their armies on your border?

      When they they treat your country and their back yard?

      When they assassinate political leaders?

      Maybe only when they cross your border with tanks and guns.. would you say that’s enough provocation?!

      For sure the SNP and other Scottish groups and political parties have had periods where their attitude and relationship with their colonial masters, ( for lets not kid ourselves, that is, in all but name, what England is! ) has been more or less hostile.

      Of course when we say ‘anti-English’ sentiment every one has a different view of what that is depending on their own position on the matter.

      I am ‘Anti-English’ and always have been …. That is to say I have always been vehemently opposed to English colonial rule … Anti Westminster if you will.

      The people of England , your average Joe Bloggs is as decent and honourable as any, with a proud history and a great country.

      My daughters are English.

      My brother has adopted England.
      Does that make me a Fascist, a ranting Nationalist…. like Jomo Kenyatta, or Nelson Mandela, or George Washington?

      Independence is the natural thing for any people to strive for.

      We support people all around the world who in whatever way they can battle against oppression and seek self determination … Except when its Scotland!

      Then it becomes the dark spectre ‘Nationalism’ as if it translates into ‘ Nazi-ism’ …

      300 years of drip drip drip colonisation has created a new people … spineless, with timorous voices and bowed heads … The Tartan Morris Dancer a Morgan McKeown?

    86. Train fares says:

      It’s about time someone pulled Farage up for his wild claims. Maybe he will stop coming out with nonsense now.

    87. Cath says:

      “No it’s not, it would only be so if the SNP had 0% of Westminster MPs (like UKIP).”
       
      Even that wouldn’t be the same. UKIP currently have 0% of Westminster MPs remember. They have some councillors and MEPs in England, but not a single one of them, nor MSP, nor MP in Scotland.
       
      Arguably the SNP should be heard even if they had 0% at Westminster but strong support at Holyrood, since that shows a democratic decision of the Scottish people. How much is a problem the union throws up which it would be best to get rid of once and for all.
       
      UKIP have 0% at Westminster, something like 0.02% in Scotland and yet expect to be able to shout the most loudly and be listened to with reverence. Not sure quite why they have that idea., especially when they are elbowing aside democratically elected parties like the Green, Margo McDonald etc to do it.

    88. Morgan McKeown says:

      UKIP:2.5 million voters 11 MEP`s(Inc Wales) versus the SNP and Greens 4
      One MLA in Stormont and well over 200 councillors in England so yes a Unionist party. Observer put them at 20% in poll on 16 June
      Accusation 1 by Radical Independence  UKIP are a Racist party- UKIP had more people from an ethnic minority background as candidates at the last Euro elections in 2009 than Con/Lab/Lib put together. UKIP commonwealth spokesperson is Mujeeb Bhutto a British  muslim , Small business spokeperson is Amjad Bashir 
      Accusation2 by Radical Independence – UKIP are Homophobic  
      http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/09/25/ukip-approves-internal-lgbt-campaign-group/
       
      The evil of Westminster: 
      So over the last 300 years under the Union. You are telling me that universal sufferage, one person one vote was a heinous Westminster imposition onto Scotland and thus Westminster implementing devo too.
      The People of Scotland having westminster policies that implemented social housing was wrong, inside toilets, running hot and cold water, education, free movement of peoples, freedom of religion without persecution, a national health service
      All these attributes of 300 years of Westminster rule such a heinous and barbaric parliament 
      The EU versus Westminster 
      Interesting that both Gordon Brown and Cameron have said that at least 50% of legislation affecting the UK including Scotland eminates from Brusselsminster. So all this anti westminster rhetoric is a smokescreen. 
      So when EU law and directives have to be implemented into scots law. Surely by definition that is not independence. Apparently the human rights record of scotland is so bad that we need the over riding protection of the ECHR. Yet the SNP complain about the UK supreme court breaking the act of union 1707. but happy for Strasbourg to do it. Inconsistency is the hall mark.
      The scottish government admits that EU regulations affect business, agriculture and fisheries, home and foreign affairs and trade deals, justice, health, social policy
         http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/International/Europe/Legislation
      Apparently the SNP agrees with Westminster  that the entire UK is to small to govern itself and needs the benevolent overseeing government of the EU
      Scotlands oil: really? in dec 2017 30% of it will be secured by the EU via stockholder regulations per member state as a security measure in case the world falls apart. http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32009L0119:EN:HTML:NOT  
       

    89. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “So over the last 300 years under the Union. You are telling me that universal sufferage, one person one vote was a heinous Westminster imposition onto Scotland and thus Westminster implementing devo too.
      The People of Scotland having westminster policies that implemented social housing was wrong, inside toilets, running hot and cold water, education, free movement of peoples, freedom of religion without persecution, a national health service”

      Oh for Christ’s sake. The idea that an independent Scotland wouldn’t have come up with voting and inside toilets without Westminster holding its hand is just about the most cretinous thing anyone’s ever said here, and I’m including Longshanker.

    90. CameronB says:

      @ Morgan McKeown
      I was going to go to the effort of replying to your points individually, but I thought this poem both analogous and more poignant than I could manage.
       
      We raise de wheat,
      Dey gib us de corn;
      We bake de bread,
      Dey gib us de crust,
      We sif de meal,
      Dey gib us de huss;
      We peel de meat,
      Dey gib us de skin;
      And dat’s de way
      Dey take us in;
      We skim de pot,
      Dey gib us de liquor,
      An say dat’s good enough for nigger.
      (Lawrence Levine: Black Culture and Black Consciousness)

    91. handclapping says:

      Wow, UKIP 2500 out of 2 million votes in Scotland. I think I’ve a good case for Farage being irrelevant in a Scottish context.
      However it is good of you to conceed that we are ruled by Westminster and as for the future if we want a Brussels overlordship thats for us to decide at a time that suits us and I’ll put my trust in the ability of my fellow Scottish citizens rather than at the mercy of 12 times the number of UK subjects.

    92. Morgan McKeown says:

      Your already under Brussels overlordship….if its about trade and free movement : Why the need for a Eurocorps military based in Strasbourg which has recently been conducting operations in Mali and continues to police the Balkans. Apparently the fact I want a german made fridge needs a military, a flag, an anthem, a president and a 24 person politburo to over see our government. Then you wonder why our military is being laid off. We have a Continental army now.     
      Sing it loud folks sing it loud
      Rabbie Burns
      Does haughty Gaul invasion threat?
      Then let the louns beware, Sir;
      There’s wooden walls upon our seas,
      And volunteers on shore, Sir:
      The Nith shall run to Corsincon,
      And Criffel sink in Solway,
      Ere we permit a Foreign Foe
      On British ground to rally!
      We’ll ne’er permit a Foreign Foe
      On British ground to rally!

      O let us not, like snarling curs,
      In wrangling be divided,
      Till, slap! come in an unco loun,
      And wi’ a rung decide it!
      Be Britain still to Britain true,
      Amang ourselves united;
      For never but by British hands
      Maun British wrangs be righted!
      No! never but by British hands
      Shall British wrangs be righted!

      The Kettle o’ the Kirk and State,
      Perhaps a clout may fail in’t;
      But deil a foreign tinkler loun
      Shall ever ca’a nail in’t.
      Our father’s blude the Kettle bought,
      And wha wad dare to spoil it;
      By Heav’ns! the sacrilegious dog
      Shall fuel be to boil it!
      By Heav’ns! the sacrilegious dog
      Shall fuel be to boil it!

      The wretch that would a tyrant own,
      And the wretch, his true-born brother,
      Who would set the Mob aboon the Throne,
      May they be damn’d together!
      Who will not sing “God save the King,”
      Shall hang as high’s the steeple;
      But while we sing “God save the King,”
      We’ll ne’er forget The People!
      But while we sing “God save the King,”
      We’ll ne’er forget The People!

    93. CameronB says:

      @ Morgan McKeown
      I am no fan of the EU myself, but please tell me who negotiates with the EU on Scotland’s behalf. Is it Westminster or Holyrood? Personally I’d prefer to speak with the organ grinder directly, if I must.

    94. handclapping says:

      Do try and keep up. You are under Brussels overlordship. We are under Westminster. We want out from under Westminster and then well decide on Brussels. That is why UKIP is irrelevant in Scotland

    95. Cath says:

      Well, that and that they’re a bunch of ignorant bawbags.

    96. Juteman says:

      Is every UKipper barking mad?

    97. Morgan McKeown says:

      Here the Scottish Government set out their principles of continued EU membership as a pre requisite of Independence.
       http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/1071/0093889.pdf 
      “Of course, Scotland would continue to be bound by the laws of the EU, but on a level playing 
      field with other Member States.” 
      So in an SNP led government: Foreign affairs and trade will be dictated by the EU.
      Agriculture and Fisheries dictated to by the EU
      Energy inc OIL policy dictated to by the EU
      Business by the EU
      No trade deals out with the EU unless sanctioned by the EU 
      UK/Scotland border controls set by the EU
      The UK is bound by these at the moment and the SNP will just continue with that …so no change. 
      p.s mind the next time your utility/transport bill comes in that for every thousand litres or tonne of fuel/ bought the EU charges £16 going up to £30 in 2020 under its CO2 Emissions Trading Scheme to pay for windmills. Then you wonder why utility companies put up their bills and why business and industry is being hit with high prices. Why our poor are in fuel poverty.  Its all added to the bill. Good ol SNP blame westminster for everything then slavishly follow EU green directives that put people into fuel poverty.       
       
       

    98. Morgan McKeown says:

      P.S Love the name calling…..sign of a failed argument 🙂

    99. Iain says:

      @Morgan McKeown
      ‘P.S Love the name calling…..sign of a failed argument ‘
       
      Does calling a couple of dozen stroppy students ‘fascist scum’ on national radio then hanging up fall into that category?

    100. Cath says:

      “P.S Love the name calling…..sign of a failed argument ”
       
      I’m surprised you’re still clinging to long since failed side that resorted to dismissing all opponents as “cybernats” years ago then.

    101. CameronB says:

      @ Morgan McKeown
      I do not mean to be rude, but what part of the current constitutional arrangement is escaping you? Scotland has no say as to its current or future relationship with Europe, as Westminster claims authority to do so on our behalf. If you have a vote in 2014, vote Yes and then elect an MP representing your position. Or stand yourself. You wont get that opportunity if we chose to remain in the union.
       
      Westminster might well provide a referendum on EU membership, but Scotland’s voice will be drowned out by the sheer numbers living in the south east. And the prospect of remaining in the union, without EU protection from the free-marketeers driving UKIP and mainstream politics in general, positively terrifies me. To do so, would be to choose to become/remain a subject of the new kingdom of ‘Bankistan’, free of Europe and slave to deregulation.
       
       

    102. Dal Riata says:

      @Morgan McKeown
      Do you believe that Scotland should be an independent country?

    103. Morgan McKeown says:

       
       
      fas·cism
        

      noun
      1.
      ( sometimes initial capital letter ) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
      @ Ian
       the dozen stroppy students with no political mandate fall into that category
      @cath “cybernat” cyberspace, internet, use of to express nationalism of an insulting and aggressive nature.
      To coin a phrase from Mr Salmond ” You have to understand the context”
      Then I describe the SNP, Con, Lab, Lib as “Eunionists” 

    104. Cath says:

      ” the dozen stroppy students with no political mandate fall into that category”
       
      The dozen stroppy students are a governmental system led by a dictator with complete power are they? Really?
       
      Oh and as to aggressive nationalism, you do realise the demo was led by a Labour student from England?

    105. raineach says:

      l’m being a bit slow as l’ve only just noticed that your initials for Nigel Falange are NF, the National Front, which was the 1970s precursor the the BNP. How appropriate is that?

    106. Dal Riata says:

      @Morgan McKeown
       
      Would you care to answer the question I set you at 4.55 pm? Thanks.

    107. Juteman says:

      You never answered my earlier question Morgan.
      Where was Chris Hoy called a ("Tractor" - Ed) and a bigot?

    108. john king says:

      CameronB says:
      19 June, 2013 at 7:51 am

      @ john kingHope you don’t mind, but I’m going to ask the Rev. to remove your last comment. We want to encourage female readers too WoS, not drive them away. 
      feeling a little foolish Cameron, I agree, it should be removed, sometimes I speak first and then think later 

    109. john king says:

      Morgan McKeown says:
      19 June, 2013 at 10:06 am

      The main thrust of Farage`s assertion was correct.
      sorry morgan
      not having that, for every racist twerp who ever carried an snp membership card there are a thousand rabid anti Scottish hate filled little Englanders ,all you have to do to find them is poke a nest of them on the telegraph and you’ll see what I mean 

    110. john king says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      19 June, 2013 at 10:57 am

      “@ john king
      campbells right rev, it was ill thought and does need to be removed

    111. CameronB says:

      @ john king
      I know its no always easy to keep the head. Cheers John.

    112. morgan mkeown says:

      Cath- as meatloaf once sang “two out of three ain`t bad” when describing their behaviour. I don’t care if the leader was from a Labour from England. (interesting that Miliband doesn`t condemn ex BNP councillors who defected to his party). That protester probably dislikes the notion of an English parliament which UKIP supports. He came to tell lies and misrepresent people. I have already provided earlier on here rebuttals to the very accusations laid at UKIP and Nigel Farage`s door by Rad Independence and the UAF thugs. Now I can do research I suggest you do to.
      Chris Hoy “bigoted anti- scot” from twitter user with SNP logo: http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-evening-news/latest-news/scottish-independence-chris-hoy-abused-online-1-2948290
      Dal Riata: I believe in the Independence and territorial integrity of the country that s on my passport and my British Consular Birth certificate, as I was not born on these islands.
      I take it from your user name if Scotland becomes Independent then you will push for a devolved assembly/independence for the west coast of Scotland and parts of Ulster. 
      John King: And If you read properly over the last month. Farage said it was not representative of the vast majority of Scots. He spoke of elements of the nationalist movement not all of it. He compared that element  to the EDL in England which he condemned. However the mere mention of a failing in a few is taken as tarring the whole brush in Scotland. But to deny there is a problem is an even greater failure. 
      P.S UKIP have pulled what was there Scottish manifesto because Farage was man enough to admit it was “Insulting to the Scots”. They are now going to campaign for a federal UK with representation at all four assemblies. Hoyrood is kept and not a Scottish grand committee. Isn`t that refreshing that a politician can admit they were wrong, when did you last hear Cameron or Salmond or Miliband admit anything.
      SNP & the pound and B of E: Sounds like Devo max to me under another guise

    113. morgan mkeown says:

      Raineach-once again you spout the lie without backing up with evidence. UKIP has Black, Asian, members and candidates.       

    114. Cath says:

      “SNP & the pound and B of E: Sounds like Devo max to me under another guise”
       
      Does it? Oh dear, that’s a real pity for the NO campaign then. Given that polls tend to show devo-max at about 35%, full independence at about 30+% and the status quo at generally around 24%.
       
      If both devo-max folk and pro-indy folk vote Yes that’s a very clear majority in favour of change.

    115. Morgan McKeown says:

      “UKIP Continue to show thier firm grasp on all things scottish…”
      Just a faux pas…..he was of course expelled from the SNP in 1979 for being to left wing and part of the “79 group”.
      Then again it seems to be part and parcel of this debate in Scotland. That the Independence  movement know absolutely nothing about UK politics either. Spouting left wing propaganda about racism, xenophobia and homophobia about a political party which isn`t.
      Isn`t it refreshing that UKIP in their Aberdeen result out polled the Scottish Green Party by 3 to 1. What is also interesting is the fact that if you tallied up the percentage vote of  the 2011 elections those parties involved in Radical Independence (SSP, SWP, Communist and the green party combined) still polled less than UKIP in Aberdeen last Thursday.   



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