Wings Over Scotland

Yes David, America and France both have nuclear weapons; we know how that worked out.

@jimnarlene. Big difference is that France doesn’t have to ask for America’s permission to use!!!

Auld Rock

Great cartoon Chris. My grand-daughter (5)looked at it and said “that bear is going to bite him papa”
I wonder what grown ups think?

gerry parker 8:08 am

You wrote “My grand-daughter (5)looked at it and said “that bear is going to bite him papa”
I wonder what grown ups think?”

I hope you told her that the bear bit a hundred and odd people in Paris last week following eating people in Lebenon, Turkey, Iraq and Syria – but that we mustn’t do anything to the bear in return because, if we do, some other bears might get cross.

I said ” I wonder what the grown ups think”

gerry parker 8:43 am

I said ” I wonder what the grown ups think”

Oh, you mean like Angus Robertson – that said in HoC that he wants to see a fully “costed” plan before he decides whether the bear has been naughty?

Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

Guido Fawkes won it.

I dont find his site easy, by the time the advert loads its hard to see if there is an article in the middle of the page.

And the comments are no form of discussion – more 4Chan for the political net trolls.

sensibledave says:
Oh, you mean like Angus Robertson – that said in HoC that he wants to see a fully “costed” plan before he decides whether the bear has been naughty?

I am guessing Angus Robertson did not say that. The decision does not relate to a judgement on any person or organization having been ‘naughty’.

The decision is to kill Syrians with bombers. For an unspecified duration (France has been at it 14 months already) for unspecified outcomes (see under Paris) with unspecified ballpark costs (Afghanistan was £37bn and 13 years, and hundreds of our own dead and damaged). With no legal or morale case that would stand the scrutiny of International Law.

But you have a good line in trivialization.

Famous15 8:50 am

“May I just say to those who have an inflated view of their own intelligence that to repeat an action and hope for a different outcome is not very sensible!”

Another repetition of some trendy, smug, apparently irrefutable “truth” I see.

Personally, I am a bit more with Robert The Bruce – and Nelson Mandela when he said “The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall.”

Great cartoon as always.

Two years ago Cameron was all for bombing Assad, now he wants to bomb ISIS. Looks like any brown people in the Middle East will do for a bit of UKOK plumage display.

I still see ISIS as One small component. Whether they are there, or not, probably makes no great difference to the overall stability of Syria/Iraq and the wider Middle East. If ISIS are seriously weakened, the void will probably be filled by another Sunni Jihadist group within months. It is not going to easy to get that ideology back in the bottle.

Most civilian deaths have been caused by the Assad regime. Most of refugees who fled did so from Assad. However, Assad is popular with some sections of Syria whose survival probably now relies on his presence. The Russian are the to ensure Assad stays in power. ISIS’s presence or absence will do little to change this situation.

@yesindyref2 says: 28 November, 2015 at 7:47 am:”

“The RN doesn’t use firing codes, it uses keys.”

Aye! yesindyref2, They have had them cut by the guy with the key cutting shop on Cowdenbeath High Street since Rosyth was doing the nuclear submarines.

Aye!
Richt!
Sheesh!

That bear looks angry, more like the Russian Bear than a Middle Eastern one. Now I do not know who is who to fight, do we fight Assad, do we fight with those who are fighting against Assad supposedly ISIS and companions, who the hell do we fight with and once the fighting is done, we have had our erses kicked again, who do we settle up with.
Looking at the state of Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, we are doing such a marvellous job, will this be all over by “Christmas” once again?

As always Chris, very adroit. A mighty cross looking bear and a very small pointy stick to poking it with.

@Anagach says: 28 November, 2015 at 8:57 am:

“sensibledave says:”

One wonders if sensibledave understands the old Scots expression, “awa an bile yer heid”?

Thanks for the cartoon Chris, gives me an opportunity to remind us all of part of the advice given by Attorney General Lord Goldsmith to Tony Blair prior to invading Iraq in 2003.

Possible legal bases for the use of force:

2. As I have previously advised, there are generally three possible bases for the use of force: (a) self-defence (which may include collective self-defence);

However, in my opinion there must be some degree of imminence. I am aware that the USA has been arguing for recognition of a broad doctrine of a right to use force to pre-empt danger in the future. If this means more than a right to respond proportionately to an imminent attack (and I understand that the doctrine is intended to carry that connotation) this is not a doctrine which, in my opinion, exists or is recognised in international law.

link to theguardian.com

Many Syrians, Iraqis, Libyans and others have have fallen. They will not rise again dave.They are dead.Beyond your words of resilience.

Helena Brown says:

“who the hell do we fight wIth”

Everyone, or no one?

link to mobile.twitter.com

“The greatest glory in living lies not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall.”

Keep going with referendums until Scotland regains its independence.

When will you Jocks understand! The Butcher’s Apron wants more blood, and by gad Sir, it shall have it! Jocks! Know your place!

Three Tory cabinet ministers are trying to sweet talk the Red Tories within the Labour Party this weekend to vote FOR bombing Syria.

Corbyn needs to get tough with these Red Tory rebels, if he doesn’t, they will vote him out as leader.

Then, I can see a split within the Labour Party. Corbyn will take his supporters to his new Party and the Red Tories will become an irrelevant force.

The real Tories will rule over the UK for decades to come.

It doesn’t have to be like that in Scotland, we have a get out option. I just hope we use it.

caz-m

I don’t hold out much hope for Corbyn and the PLP. Many of the loons keen to bomb are the same loons that were keen anything they could 10 to 15 years ago. They were the problem so Corbyn has zero chance of finding a solution from them.

sensibledave@9.07am
I tend not to bother with your innate ranting’s,
but was very happy to notice you are a ” bit more with Nelson Mandela”.
What is your opinion on the Palestine situation?
As the great man you refer to quoted,
“We know well that our freedom, is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians”

Sometimes in conflict you have to look at a much bigger picture, try and understand the west has caused this problem, there is absolutely NO DENYING that.

I have friends who were in Syria just before all the troubles started, they said it was one of the most beautiful, friendliest countries they had ever visited.
It pisses me off when we have certain “establishment lackeys” who have only one agenda, to feather their own nest and bow down the boys with the bigger toys.
Yes Assad has problems, some of which he is guilty of, but who gives us the right to invade his country.
I am sick to the back teeth hearing “the majority of the UK population are behind an invasion”.
Lets ask the electorate, before the situation is beyond repair.

Very important

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/113064

Corbyn needs to quickly grow a pair, whip his warmongering red tory “rebels” to vote against bombing Syria and accept their resignations. None of this free vote nonsense – what a cop out. By placating his enemies, Corbyn ensures the destruction of his beloved party. He has very little time left, and absolutely nothing to lose by forcing the issue – it is time to take a stance. His long-term objectives may sound fine but he is unlikely to last long enough. His feeble behaviour to date is something worse than useless.

I see our resident unionist troll is out in force this morning, spouting his usual pro establishment nonsense from high in his ivory tower.

I suggest some bedtime reading for those who need educated about the current Middle East situation. The Rise of Islamic State by Patrick Cockburn neatly sums up the disastrous effects of western intervention in the Middle East. How the west created the conditions for the rise of Isis by stoking the wars in Syria and Iraq.

Mr Cameron wants to continue stoking the war, creating more bloodshed, more extremism, and yet more refugees.

Playing devil’s advocate a moment, and supposing I was persuaded that a military intervention was required, it strikes me that air bombing is the least effective way of achieving anything.

I remember a British Army recruitment advert on TV where the plucky British squaddie was better able to engage with an angry African gunman because he took off his sunglasses to make eye contact. Since we now assassinate people with drones with neither eye contact (nor trial), I am left to wonder where, when, and why this fundamental change in philosophy occurred.

I “get” that drone strikes and bombs from afar reduces the risk of casualties in our armed forces, but you surely have to consider how this strategy is perceived on the ground. We become the cowards who run away from battle and leave dead children in our wake. Whether we do or we don’t is irrelevant, because our enemies remain to poison the minds of their neighbours.

For goodness sake, can we not surrender our principles for knee jerk retaliatory air strikes which achieve nothing? Are we not smarter than that?

To play Devil’s advocate once again; just suppose the USA had contained it’s rage and wounded indignation when the World Trade Centre buildings were attacked, and instead of military retribution, the incident was addressed as a criminal action to be addressed by international policing. I know, that would be a bitter pill for the wounded population of America to swallow, but it would be an enduring shame upon the heads of all Muslim fundamentalists, and a bastion of moral authority for those who respect the fundamentalism of justice; true, real, and uncompromising justice.

Suppose America had chosen that fork in the road. I cannot believe we would now be in the mess we are now.

Of course, we have to remember that the sanctity of justice would have implications for the Isrealis. But perhaps we might for the first time in a long time be getting closer to a resolution and lasting peace in the Middle East than running headlong in the opposite direction.

US sponsored regime change has failed in Syria and on the road to failing in Ukraine.

Russians have had enough and probably wouldn’t be doing what they’re doing without China’s agreement.

Japan can’t get armed quickly enough.

Fun times ahead.

Skies of the middle east fill up with Russian and western jet fighters, bombers, killer robot drones, cult of the rule Britannia toryboys fcuk it all up over and over.

How come there’s been nothing from wing commander Kez?

SLabour are desperate for war via tweets and safety of Scotland.

Duncan Hothersall ?@dhothersall Nov 26
Duncan Hothersall Retweeted Kevin Peters
THERE’S ALREADY A WAR. You think you’re fighting for peace? You’re fighting to leave people to die.

Blood thirsty, ignorant, jingo’s and zealot’s, V for Victory, crush the enemy, death or glory, once more into the breach, defeat IS, your country needs you, punch above our weight, be a UKOK world power forever and ever… vote SLabour, not red tories.

Kinda OT

For all you fans of Chris Cairns (i.e. everyone) there is an opportunity to see him in the flesh (well, not too much flesh) on Tuesday, December 8th from 7pm in the West End Hotel, Fort William.

Chris will be talking ‘toons & politics plus there will be an audience question and answer session. Signed prints and copies of his latest book will be available at a special event price.

Entry is free.

Angra Mainyu says:
at 9:55 am

I’d like to know what data this is base on: “Most civilian deaths have been caused by the Assad regime.”

It is an assymetrical war. The side using heavy weapons and air power in urban areas seems bound to cause most civilian deaths.

If you are hinting that many of the so called observer sites listing death figures may be biased, you may be right. One in particular seems to be quoted by media continually, I have no idea if it is accurate.

However, the internet is full of reports by organisations who appear to have no axe to grind. One would be …

link to s3.amazonaws.com

“Government forces were responsible for 93 percent of the 162 medical personnel killed in the last year. ”

“any brown people in the Middle East will do” which isn’t the case.

A key ingredient is they need to be defenceless.

I agree they need to be defenceless. My point was that there is a disgusting human life value system which puts Western citizens first, Middle Eastern people lower, and Africans at the bottom. Violence, terrorism, war in Africa barely gets a mention if no Westerners are involved. The Middle East is little better. An ISIS attack in Beirut a few days before Paris barely got mentioned. In fact it probably got mentioned more only after Paris.

I am highly skeptical about countries who are arms manufacturers/exporters being so keen to use their arms on real targets. Because of attitudes to the relative value of human life, brown people appear to make less controversial targets. Collateral damage in the Middle East, will sadly be accepted, again.

Not sure about the ideology stuff either but it’s sort of tautological to say that you find your official enemy’s ideology unpleasant.

I’ll be honest, I don’t think the neo-Con ideology of the West is pleasant either. However, militant Jihadist Islam is an ideology of the masses, not the elite. As such, it is going to be much more difficult to ‘weed out’.

Valerie says:
28 November, 2015 at 11:50 am
I like James O’Brien on LBC, he is very articulate.

Or just common sense.

The Grand Old Duke of Pork, he had seventy thousand Syrian men.

Breeks@11:30

Excellent post.
May I suggest that the path taken after 9:11 was entirely for the benefit of the corporate West?

To play Devil’s advocate once again; just suppose the USA had contained it’s rage and wounded indignation when the World Trade Centre buildings were attacked, and instead of military retribution, the incident was addressed as a criminal action to be addressed by international policing

This is all interesting but it doesn’t explain why Labour, Blair, Brown etc went to war with the US, Bush etc?

Chilcott’s being held back for all the usual UKOK fraud reasons and by all the usual sneaky shits but if it is ever published, it probably wont explain the insane war mongering of New red tory Labour.

Above all else, Scotland has a goof chance to keep warmongering red tories out of office for good. No matter how hard the BBC fight to get SLab back in power, we must never let them back in.

@Rev. Stuart Campbell says: 28 November, 2015 at 8:41 am:

““Best Political Blogger eh.”

Guido Fawkes won it.”

Nah!
Now! Now!, Rev Stu.

You know, I know and everyone in Scotland knows that it is always the Daily Record, “Wot wins it”

Great artwork Chris.

Documented civilian deaths from violence in Iraq since
Labour party took us to war in 2003.
147,264 – 167,069

link to iraqbodycount.org

What still amazes me is most folk in the Yes campaign thought the MSM told lies throughout indyref1, before, during and after, yet still believe their ‘other’ stories.

Silent crowd for the names of the Paris incident on the news. Politicians and ‘families’ in attendance and not a tear insight, nor distraught parents, nor a withdrawal of permission to use a name.

I don’t buy it, but feel free. State owned media, in the West are pathological liars. I don’t believe a word they say, but you feel free. It’s hard to admit to being scammed.

Here’s an example;

Fucking YouTube had deid Russian pilot within minutes, feck on Paris, feck. Couple of grainy distance shots, and every interview the words insinuate so as not to incriminate.

I’d rather not partake, but please, feel free.

For those that wish the link to the petition:

Vote no on military action in Syria….

link to petition.parliament.uk

100,000 votes will force a debate in parliament.

non Wahhabi Islamic jihadist rebel groups? I think not

link to independent.co.uk

Why did Cameron make the ridiculous ‘WMD lie’ there 70,000 ‘moderate’ FSA in Syria?

David Cameron, in his House of Common’s statement attempting to justify bombing Syria, used a blatant lie that there are 70,000 ‘moderate’ members of the Free Syrian Army (FSA) in Syria. This plays exactly the same role as Tony Blair’s notorious lie that Iraq possessed WMD and that these could be used in 45 minutes.

In a letter to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee Cameron claimed: ‘there are about 70,000 Syrian opposition fighters on the ground who do not belong to extremist groups.’

This is a straightforward lie. The reality of the FSA is known to every serious observer. But to avoid suggestion of bias anti-war and left wing groups will not be quoted but only the US military, supporters of bombing Syria, and Tories.

First, the actual commander of the US forces in Iraq and Syria explained the debacle which occurred when the US allocated $500 million to attempt to train ‘moderate’ anti-Assad forces in Syria.

‘General Lloyd Austin, the commander of U.S. Central Command… told Congress today that only “four or five” of the… U.S. trained moderate Syrian fighters remain in the fight against ISIS.

‘Christine Wormuth, the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, also told the Senate Armed Services Committee that there are currently between 100 and 120 fighters in a program that was slated to have trained 5,400 fighters in its first 12 months….

‘The first 54 graduates of the program were re-inserted into northern Syria in July and were quickly attacked by the Al Nusra Front, the dominant Islamist rebel group in Syria… When Austin was asked how many trained fighters remained in the fight he responded “it’s a small number,” before adding “the ones that are in the fight, we’re talking four or five.”’

The Daily Mail analysed the attempt to develop a similar programme of ‘moderate’ anti-Assad forces by the UK and US: ‘both the US and British soldiers abandoned a training programme in the Middle East designed to ready 5,000 moderates for battle several months ago after it went disastrously wrong.

‘In an embarrassment for Coalition nations, only around 100 actually underwent training because they had struggled to find Syrian recruits untainted by extremist affiliations.’

Regarding analysis by Tories: ‘Dr Julian Lewis, chairman of the defence select committee, asked: ‘Where are these magical 70,000 people?’, as Tory MP John Baron said the Prime Minister was being “extremely optimistic”.

‘Dr Lewis told the Commons: “The suggestion there are 70,000 non-Islamist, moderate, credible ground forces, I have to say, is a revelation.”

‘Tory MP Peter Lilley said ‘there are no moderates’ and suggested there was only ‘a rag-bag group of clans and tribal forces with no coherent force’.

Even more bluntly Lilley stated: ‘I want you to convince me that what you refer to as the Free Syrian Army actually exists.’

The idea that there are 70,000 ‘moderate’ FSA forces when all the US military can train are ‘four or five’ is absolutely ridiculous.

Why, therefore, does Cameron state this absurd lie – which entirely ranks with Blair’s claim that Iraq had WMD which could be used in 45 minutes. It is because Cameron wants to conceal the reality which was entirely accurately described by Patrick Cockburn – and is the same as the one that took place in Libya after that country was bombed by NATO: ‘the departure of Assad would lead to a collapse of the state and the triumph of Isis and the self-declared caliphate.’

In short the development in Syria would be the same as in Iraq and Libya. Previously marginalised and powerless ‘jihadist’ groups would become extremely powerful. This would not only be horrific for the people of the countries concerned but also form a base for terrorist attacks such as those against Paris and Mali.

This is the reality that Cameron wants to conceal. This is why he invents the ridiculous lie there are 70,000 ‘moderate’ FSA in Syria.

Can I just thank sensible Dave.

I really appreciate all the contributors on this site and I learn a lot, but since I tend to agree with most of them it can be a bit of a back slapping exercise.

Then along comes Sensible Dave with his complete establishment views, which no amount of evidence will shake and it reminds me of some of the no voters I’ve met and their bat shit crazy arguments. And it toughens me up a bit. Forewarned is forearmed and all that.

Thanks Sensible Dave. Keep up the good work. Oh, and since you are such a fan of warfare, can I take it you’ll be looking to join up soon? You know, walk the walk and all that.

Do let us know, we’ll knit you some socks.

Then along comes Sensible Dave with his complete establishment views

War is good, for all right hard core tory regimes. Its good for hard core conservative politics, business, nationalist tub thumping, rally the plebs to the flag, or they’re ("Tractor" - Ed)s and cowards to the rule Britannia cult of it all.

Or, how come teamGB is virtually the only European country at perpetual war, with WMD’s and ofcourse with red and blue toryboy cults in power?

We came so close to shaking them off last year though.

ahundredthidiot@11.52
I assume your rather unclear post implies that you subscribe to the nonsensical conspiracy theory that the CIA or the FBI or some other US organisation brought down the twin towers by explosives.
I wonder how this was coordinated with the four hijacked airliners, two of which were seen by thousands of people crashing into the buildings.
Any such building built around a structural steel frame will collapse when the steel is heated in a sufficiently hot fire. The jet fuel in the planes was more than adequate.
Other conspiracy theories in recent posts say that Assad had no chemical weapons. He certainly did and under pressure from the UN he agreed to ship them to the Netherlands where they are currently being destroyed in specially built plants. He probably doesn’ have any now.
Having said all that I do not agree with any of the Iraq/ Syria invasion. It was utter stupidity by Blair and Bush and Iraq had nothing to do with the twin towers attacks.
I just don!t like wild conspiracy theories with no evidence except “a man in the pub said so.”

It’s a bear in the poke?

The vile SaberNats frothing and slabbering at the mooth, gagging to murder babies.

Not in my name.

@ Ian Brotherhood
“I know a lot of folk are sceptical about petitions,…”

Well, include me in that list. Usually, I feel more inclined to sign the ones posted on the Holyrood and Westminster Parliament websites because if the target is reached it triggers a debate. However, the recent one calling for a no confidence vote in Cameron was fobbed off too easily for my liking.

I haven’t noticed any advantage in signing at some of those well known petition websites. The clincher though was 38Degrees apparently handing over an existing petition to Gordon Brown.

I’ll sign this one:
link to petition.parliament.uk

A typical single 1000lb bomb dropped from an aircraft shoots out thousands of lethal fragments for a half mile radius. So it’s not just the target you hit that matters ,no matter how accurately you manage to aim.
Bigger bombs have as a consequence a further blast /fragmentation range,
So forget the crap you hear about accurate bombing. They will kill anything or anyone within the vicinity.

It is a bizarre world we live in, a world where nuke weapons are supposed to uhmm protect us from the wicked of the world. The UK is armed to the teeth with them as is the USA and so on, as is France and a fat lot of good it did them.

I hope I am not alone in thinking that Assad cant teach the Saudis or indeed Bahrain anything yet we are arming them to the teeth with other weapons, meanwhile the Saudis were bombing some of their other neighbours.

I have to assume that the Brit Nats and the lickspittles they employ in the Brit Nat Press and Media are all addicted to some kind of hallucinogenic since they are busy preparing us for another war against the supposed evil of the world. I think I will go back to the dark room before it gets too crowded again.

Fireproofjim @ 1.02 PM
OT..sorry….
while not the time or the place but just out of curiosity,
What’s you’re take on the collapse of building 7 ?

If you are going to answer please do it on ….off topic…..
Not a conspiracy type either but have often wondered.
Especially since the weird BBC reporting.

Auld A – ‘It’s a bear in the poke?’ Aye, as opposed to Hameron’s poke in a pig. 😉

There is a debate in the Commons before the Debate. They will not have other one.

Westminster had better not use Scottish taxes for this illegal War if Scottish MP’s vote no. That would be illegal. The majority in Scotland want no illegal wars. Especially when people in Scotland can’t heat, eat, sleep with worry, putting up the NHS bill. Worry makes people ill. Thousands of people in Scotland are losing their jobs because of Tory policies.

RGU should have their funding cut. They have just given Heyward, the criminal ex-boss of BP a Honorary Degree in Technology. BP the worse company in economic history. Heyward should be in jail. What are RGU thinking off? Totally wasting public money honouring crooks. Workers died because of neglect and non complience with UK Health & Safety Law. Thousands of workers have lost their jobs because of UK gov policies and tax rates (75%). It is a disgrace. RGU should be sanctioned. An academic disgrace. What an insult to the workers who died and the catastrophe.

Dear Fireproofjim,

I respect your caution re conspiracy theories. Someone posted a link to the Toronto 9/11 enquiry on this site several days ago. It is evidence lead. The qualifications and reputations of those giving evidence, scientists, academics, engineers, etc are beyond reproach.

what cannot be denied is that a proper, professional criminal investigation was not carried out after 9/11. A proper inquest was not carried out. A proper public enquiry was not carried out.

Have a look at the above film and see what you think.

Kind regards

I see that Grant Shapps has resigned over the revelation that the Nasty Party is even viciously nasty to its own.

I think the only surprise is that anyone is surprised.

O/T

C`mon Scotland in the Davis Cup final,I see they are wearing their countries colours.

Some toryboy fun in rancid The Graun.

link to theguardian.com

You all hate JC dont you, because

“Their chief concern is over Labour’s prospects of ever again winning the trust of the British people and forming a government. And they want a Labour government very badly.”

Toryboy world UKOK style, wants a red toryboy Lab. But interesting omission from usual lying hypocrites of the Graun, and NO mention of their Scotland region, where the Red Tory party has been slowly and then spectacularly booted out of Scotland, probably for good.

Its a odd omission, by a red toryboy rag that shat/shits very very hard on everything Scotland, excluding their endless desperate struggle to get red torygirl Kezia Nuke Em Dugdale and her crew of seat warmers, back in to Holyrood.

A bloody good war will bring us all to UKOK heal, bettertogther.

Why a bear? Perhaps a bit clumsy, as Russia (The Great Bear) has been at ‘war’ against various flavours of western-backed Jedidiah mercenaries (e.g. Daesh), since the 1970s. Ever since the US launched Operation Cyclone.

The US poured cash into Afghanistan throughout the 1980s in an effort to defeat – or at least tie down – the Russians. Its principal ally was Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, a ferociously anti-communist and militant Islamist leader. The US and Saudi Arabia both sent about $500m (pounds 300m) annually between 1986 and 1989 to fund the mujahedin, and other rich individuals from the Gulf – including Mr bin Laden – spent an extra $20m every month. The US funded the construction of the camps at Khost which it attacked two months ago in response to the embassy bombs.

link to archive.is

Trident may be a grossly expensive and pointless retaliatory weapons but Depleted Uranium (DU), is truly offensive. The hundreds of tons of DU munitions used in Iraq and Afghanistan, has left radioactive wastelands of those sovereign nations.

As a special advisor to the World Health Organization, the United Nations, and the Iraqi Ministry of Health, Dr. Ahmad Hardan has documented the effects of DU in Iraq between 1991 and 2002.

“American forces admit to using over 300 tons of DU weapons in 1991. The actual figure is closer to 800. This has caused a health crisis that has affected almost a third of a million people. As if that was not enough, America went on and used 200 tons more in Bagdad alone during the recent invasion.

I don’t know about other parts of Iraq, it will take me years to document that.

In Basra, it took us two years to obtain conclusive proof of what DU does, but we now know what to look for and the results are terrifying.”

link to globalresearch.ca

Bill Hume

I am guessing you saw all those things on the telly? You weren’t actually there for any of them? Fair?

What about King Kong?

That was on the telly…..did you see that big monkey?

Jez I despair

And you couldn’t possibly be wrong could you (rhetorical)

Scottish ATC, I saw it, haha, that’s funny.

Sorry O/T
Just seen from twitter..looks like the Orkney 4 are needing help.

link to tinyurl.com

For anyone wondering about the gas attacks blamed on Assad. No doubt they happened, but then Pentagon contractors trained insurgents in their handling.

Hope I’m still around for the film..

link to globalresearch.ca

@ Bill Hume 2.47
If you are saying you watched two planes destroy three buildings you may have actually reached breaking point some time ago.

If there is a coup against Corbyn then the fall out will be messy.

I was hoping corbyn would win for exactly this reason, I didn’t believe he could bring his party with him. too many disagreements about trident, austerity etc. I didn’t figure an escalation and the declaration of war in my calculation,

but yes, the new leader will be pro trident, pro austerity and pro war. kezia will need to reverse the anti trident vote weeks before the holyrood election.

the Russians were defeated by the mujahideen in afganistan, who were supplied with stinger missiles,by the west, I expect the wahhabist are being supplied as we speak

if the war goes badly, and without a un resolution, (camerons defence of turkey and the fsa would indicate USA policy too, so I cant see a un resolution happening now)this war has the potential to turn out very badly for the UK. the kurds in turkey are now kicking off.

yes/snp will pick up the growing anti war votes in Scotland, how will Cameron react when the first raf pilot is burned to death, how will the public react when isis execute 250 brittish soldiers?

Cameron is on a one way ticket
see david lammy telling portullo(and Cameron)at 15:15 the number of labour mps who support bombing, I doubt lammy will be very popular with corbyn

link to bbc.co.uk

Proudcybernat

You’re right, I apologise, in my defence though it did start with how yesfolk think the BBC and WM government conspired during indyref1

I’ll shut up

Was Wojtek whose statue was recently unveiled a Syrian bear?

Andy Murray is wearing the sportswear he promotes just like any other player. The other team is wearing red their National colours. That would have been decided at the start of the competion, so not to confuse the spectators The awful jamboree is just an orchestrated embarrassment. A load of crass exhibitionists. Spot the idiots. Enough to put folk off tennis.

Corbyn was elected by a majority of party members. They will not take it lightly if their candidates is disqualified. These rebels MP’s might find their privileges restricted and they are deselected. The Labour Party losing even more votes along with their Tory colleagues. Especially when things go wrong, and they will. This carry-on is just a diversion from the state of politics and the economy. Cameron and his colleagues run away. The £10Million jet. A public disgrace.

THere are 2Billion Muslims in the world of all nationality and culture. The majority are totally kind lovng, generous and peaceful. Some of the other 5Billion in the world are not. Deprivation, poverty , inequality and injustice causes most of the problems. In the Middle East caused by the West for over 100 years, for Oil.

Sorta OY,

I’ve always thought that the BBC support Labour in Scotland, because of the links between Labour and the BBC, but this McTernan nonsense has left me wondering if it’s really just the UK establishment the BBC support, and Scottish Labour are just an means to an end.

Labour in Scotland, The establishment puppets in Scotland.

Apoligies in advance for the very long post, but going to war and bombing people is worth questioning.

My question is what of the legality of bombing Syria, has anyone asked? Or do we just not care about such things anymore?

In evidence to the inquiry, the Foreign Office’s chief legal adviser Michael Wood told of No 10’s reaction to a paper Wood wrote in October 2002 “on the consequences of the United Kingdom using force against Iraq without there being any international legal authority”:

It did go to Number 10, who said, “Why has this been put in writing?”

“BARONESS USHA PRASHAR: Thank you, Chairman. Sir Michael, thank you for your statement.

What I want to cover is the legal position on the use of force before the Security Council 1441 and also what happened in terms of practical advice giving and the concerns you might have raised, but I think it would be very helpful if you can just tell us whether you were ever asked to advise on the provisions of international law relevant specifically to regime change in Iraq, and who asked you, and when was this, and what advice did you give?

SIR MICHAEL WOOD: It was such an obvious point that kept on coming up and we just stuck in the sentence: “Regime change is not a legal basis for the use of force.”

It wasn’t really controversial, so — I can’t remember if and when I personally put that sentence in, but it went constantly into documents and was not, as far as I can recall, challenged by anyone.

BARONESS USHA PRASHAR: So you can’t remember when you were specifically asked that question and by whom?

SIR MICHAEL WOOD: I can’t. I can remember when we were first — at least, I think I can remember, having refreshed my memory with the papers — when we first looked at the general question of the legal basis for the use of force prior to the adoption of 1441, if you would like me to set that out.

BARONESS USHA PRASHAR: I would actually. That was my next point. I really wanted you to briefly give your view on the legal position of the use of force before.

SIR MICHAEL WOOD: I think the legal position was pretty straightforward and pretty uncontroversial.

The first possible basis would be self-defence, and it was clear to all the lawyers concerned that there was no — a factual basis for self-defence was not present, unless circumstances changed, because there was not — Iraq was not engaged in an armed attack, nor was there an imminent armed attack on us or its neighbours or anybody else. So self-defence was ruled out.

The second possibility would have been the exceptional right to use force in the case of an overwhelming humanitarian catastrophe.

This was the Kosovo argument, the argument we used in 1999, and also used for the No Fly Zones. Apart from the No Fly Zones, it was clear that there was no basis, using that rather controversial argument, for the use of force, in 2001/2002.

So that left the third basis, possible basis, which was with authorisation by the Security Council. There, of course, we had had a series of resolutions culminating in 1205 of 1998, which was seen as the basis for Operation Desert Fox in December 1998, and so there was a slight question whether that finding of a breach, a serious breach, was still — still had some force.

But I think all the lawyers who looked at it were pretty — were very clearly of the view that it was not, and that if we sought to rely on that resolution of some years before, we wouldn’t have had a leg to stand on.

So the advice that was given was that there was no basis for the use of force in late 2001, when it first arose, I think, in 2002, without a further Security Council decision. There was one point that kept on coming up. Occasionally ministers, people, would say, “Well, Kosovo, we can do what we did in Kosovo.”

link to iraqinquiry.org.uk

@:Bill Hume says: 28 November, 2015 at 2:46 pm:

” … When I return I expect all of the conspiracy idiots to have tried a dose of reality and shut the fuck up.”

They won’t though, Bill. Facts go whooshing over their heads. These high buildings are built upon a steel skeleton and, like a house of cards, take out a card part way down and the weight of the cards above coming down brings the whole lot down.

Which is exactly what a controlled explosion is designed to do. It takes out the bottom so that the weight of what is above takes the lot down. Do these numpties think that a couple of aircraft full of aviation spirit will just knock a hole where they hit?

The BBC have had complaints about Ginger hair and See You Jimmy Tartan Tammys apparently some sections of society are put off the Tennis and irritated by the spectacle

Except for the Scots, The Welsh, and The Irish
so I can’t think who’s unhappy, (Multiculturalism don’t you just love it)

Still thinking

Scotland 2 Belgium 1 in Davis Cup Final

This may be dangerous. The first one please. 🙂

link to wingsoverscotland.com

link to wingsoverscotland.com

o/t Here’s a conspiracy: who’s sponsoring all the Brit Dicks and their ‘spontaneous’, but orchestrated looking ‘support’ at the tennis? And what is the Stirling University Connection with the ‘Barmy Army’?….Conservative Club perhaps?

Funny how they keep getting plenty of coverage on the ‘BeeB’.

Bill Hume

This thread has fuck all to do with Scottish Independence

It’s about sitting on the edge of a very big battle and I am adding my tuppenceworth about how we bloody well got here

Unquestioning believers of all things pish, that’s how.

May I suggest a quick google for ‘godlike productions’ if anyone is interested in conspiracy theories.

Now some of the good folk on there really are bampots – even McTeirnan would come over as sane.

Meanwhile Re: The Orkney Four funding. We have seen the results of CorpMedia attacking Natalie McGarry. Keep it all over and above board on IndiGoGo – I know they take a cut but threrein lay security. We don’t want monies going to odd bank accounts and a subsequent shitfest do we?

I saw David Cameron’s news interview earlier this afternoon where he was asked about Labour MP’s voting on Syria. His reply was that Britain need to be with ‘her allies’.

But that made me frown because Cameron’s answer only seems to raise more questions.

Simply put …who are our allies?

First and foremost, and I believe we can all agree on this one – the French. Goes without saying.

But the French are allied with the Russians. Putin has agreed to help the French, and I believe the French have quietly accepted this offer.

But Russia is not Britain’s ally. In fact, Britain has an extremely frosty relationship with Russia.

And the Russians are allies of Syria and Iran!

So …are we now quietly allies with Russia …which also very quietly means Syria and Iran. Somehow, like yourselves, I think not!

So …that takes us back to an original question before the downed Russian jet during the week and the Russians entering Syria; if we defeat ISIS …what then? What happens to Syria? With the Russians in there on mass, I think we can all agree that Assad is going nowhere and the current regime stays!

So …what was the point of bombing Syria to remove Assad while turning countless people into refugees …if Assad is to remain in power? What was the point of it all? We weren’t fighting ISIS at that point so that’s no excuse. We were originally bombing strategic positions belonging to Assad to remove him from power. Is this no longer the case? If so …why did we bomb Syria in the first place?

Now here’s an even more complex and angering thought. The Russians are in Syria …and we know ISIS are not only in Syria, but are also in Iraq (all over Iraq actually)…and Iraq shares a border with Iran.

Now the US and UK are no longer deployed in Iraq. So what’s to stop the Russians and Iranians ‘invading’ Iraq to ‘defeat ISIS’ and remaining there, thus creating the ‘mythical’ bridgehead which would finally unite Russia, Syria and Iran …all via Iraq?

Which then begs another question …did we fight in Iraq for 13 odd years, spending what? (I’m speculating half a trillion US Dollars and Sterling) with the deaths of US and UK service personnel along with half a million Iraqis …and for what??? Just to hand it over to Russia, Syria and Iran! Because personally, I can’t see the people of the UK being happy with that outcome. In fact, I believe many will rightly outraged. Cameron and Blair will be condemned if such an outcome should come to pass!

But on a totally different note …here’s something to quietly debate on. This week, the EU offered Turkey a deal that may pave the way and ‘speed up’ Turkey’s application to joining the EU (link to theguardian.com)

Quietly, this has not gone down well with a few of the EU nations (some don’t want an Islamic nation as part of the ‘Western Christian Economic zone’, while some EU nations have very long memories of Turkey once dominating the Balkans in the age of the Ottoman Empire.

If the EU has a serious internal argument over Turkey’s entry, then have the Russians spotted a weakness in the EU’s stance on ‘will-they-won’t-they’ to let Turkey join the EU? If so, they may have played a blinder on this? Not only do they finally get into the ‘promised land’ of the Middle East, but at the same time, they have finally driven a wedge into the EU, thus possibly causing a deep rift amongst a number of Central and Eastern European nations from that of the influences of Western Europe, and amplified their own influences there instead.

If so …Putin has played a blinder on this one. Who would have believed – if it should come to pass – that one downed fighter jet could eventually lead to some serious internal strife in the EU? For all Putin needs to do, is to gleefully continue intimidating the Turks with ‘threats’ of future consequences, and Turkey will surely run to the EU and US for protection. The continuation of the refugee crisis (helped by Russia if it pushes hard in Syria and Iraq) along with one downed jet could lead to a major fallout in the EU …and thus, extends Russia’s influence over it’s old Soviet territories.

It makes you wonder…

@ahundredthidiot –

More power to ye.

Anyone who wants to discuss 9/11 should come over to O/T.
Not one of the people who starts frothing around the gub whenever anyone raises the slightest question has EVER come to O/T to defend the ‘official’ explanation.

And that puts you in some esteemed company:
link to youtube.com

(FWIW, I’m not engaging in any discussion about it right here. I just wanted to express support for ahundredthidiot and lizg.)

If we have to put boots on the ground it should be boots from Israel who I believe are the ones behind all the trouble in the Middle East but never seem to get mentioned I wonder why ?

Once upon a time there was two bears. One was called isis, the other was called Russia. Russia was a really bad bear the wise men said. The other bear was a good bear, well, it could be trained to be a good bear, said the wise men, but its behaviour, alas was not good.

Bear Russia lived in a cold area and was shunned, although its honey was enjoyed by the people in “The City”. The other bear, Isis, the good bear lived in a warmer area with an abundance of fruit that yielded oil. The good bear was given treats, but it spurned the treats and didn’t want to give its fruit bearing oil to “The City”. So, the wise men believed that this very naughty, selfish “good” bear needed to be shown the error of its ways.

I do not support the killing of children and innocent people. I therefore do not support the Britnats in their proposal to bomb in Syria.

With or without a vote in favour, in Westminster, the Britnats will no doubt find a way to bomb Syria. Scottish opinion against bombing will be ignored as being irrelevant as always.

Corbyn conspires with all other Britnats to ensure that Scotland is kept in this state of impotence. Consequently, opposition to the warmongering is fatally weakened.

I am heartily sickened that innocents are going to be traumatised, maimed and killed.

Angra Mainyu

They look at war and the ballot box too. Bomber Bliar usually absolves himself and his merry band of maniacs by explaining that they did win the 2005 GE, so there. Crash Gordon’s never asked, nor is the ridiculous expense fiddler Flipper Darling, sorry Lord Darling.

How will war help us win votes?
At least we can spend even more on mass surveillance, GCHQ can hear a mouse fart in Wimbledon. is everyone on the right war makes teamGB proud page, in all UKOK newsrooms and so on.

Middle England must be kept happy, house prices secure, no new taxes, we won WW2, we’re Brits and proud.

Latest war news in National.

Schoolchildren killed in air strikes
NOVEMBER 28TH, 2015 – 12:44 AM JAMES HAMILTON 1 COMMENT
AIR strikes targeting Raqqa have killed at least eight people, including five children at a school taken over by Isis terrorists, according to opposition groups.

Raqqa, in north-eastern Syria, is Daesh’s de-facto capital and has become the focus of air strikes in the wake of the Paris terror attack on November 13.

A Raqqa-based activist group that reports on Daesh, known as Raqqa Is Being Slaughtered Silently, said most of yesterday’s casualties occurred when warplanes targeted the Heten School which, like others in Raqqa, has been taken over by Daesh.

It was not clear who carried out the latest air strikes.

@Heedtracker,

That is precisely the problem.Daesh will seek refuge amongst the populace as cover from air attack. We will kill the innocent with the guilty.
The American bombing of the hospital was no accident last week. The innocent got caught up again by those sheltering inside,expecting Western morality to omit such a target.
Some hope!!!

The starting point for everyone, even non-Europeans, ought to be that what is happening in Syria and Iraq is none of our business

true. but it is our fault