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Poison ivy

Posted on June 05, 2016 by


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  1. 05 06 16 06:56

    Poison ivy | speymouth

154 to “Poison ivy”

  1. Sharny Dubs

    Woooo scary!!!

    Nice one!1

  2. Hamish Mctavish

    Definitely a rash decision

  3. Almannysbunnet

    Planted by UKIP, watered by the Brexit Tories.

    They should really join UKIP but can’t. I’t would endanger their gravy train.

  4. Effijy

    I read someone’s Daily Mail yesterday, against my better judgement. What a pile of Right Wing extremist tripe.

    Against all of the evidence, they accuse the First Minister
    of killing that toddler in Fife, through the Scottish Governments desire to have such children protected by a Named Person.

    They have a fantasist writer, definitely not a journalist, Emma Cowling, who seems to have found the key to success is through outrageous, unfounded, extremist remarks against SNP.

    “Evidence” to support their slander always begins with, a source says! My arse a source says, their made up nonsense
    just needs that shred of possibility while closing the door on any checks or question’s on its origins.

    I’d like to take you to another page where yet another English Toddler appears to have been neglected, abused, and murdered.

    Young Harry House from Dorset is yet another victim of neglect, incompetence, and austerity by David Cameron, the Tory Government, Papers such as the Daily Mail, and fantasist propagandist writers like Emma Cowling.

    Let’s employ that papers’ format in creating a story.

    “A very reliable source, used for years, with contacts in Downing St, and Buckingham Palace, has reported that none of those based there could give a damn about 200 English Kids per annum being abused and killed by their parents, as protecting them would take new measures to be put in place, time, effort, and above all money.

    They like to think that these circumstances free up the need for on-going costs to the Social Work Dept, another less place to provide at school, and if they were being regularly injured, it will save valuable funds for the NHS.

    An advisor to the Prime Minister has allegedly said that it was preposterous to even consider that they would spend
    money on new protection legislation when covering up abuse and paedophilia my Westminster MP’s, Senior Judges and the Police is taking up so much time.

    DM finds it hard to understand why so many of his Private School chums want to keep up with child abuse in later years as it was such a regular practice at boarding school.
    Much easier to keep a pig’s head under your bed as they don’t talk back or want to give evidence against you.

    He also proposed that Wee Ruthie likes to dress like a wee naughty boy in order to catch the eye of the party leaders”

    Isn’t it strange how she wants children from the most deprived and abused homes to go on to university, but she doesn’t see a need for their lives to be saved first.

    PS The Paper did dedicate a couple of pages on the biggest tennis story to hit these shores in many years.

    The Player concerned is called Andy Murray, but they managed to avoid any controversial words like Scottish, Scotland, but he could become the first British Player in 81 years to win the French Open title.

    What a Racket, What the Deuce, Same old Balls!

  5. starlaw

    Why do these people think controlling EU immigration is the end of their problems. Britain is failing to control illegal immigration which is well out off control, do they think they will be allowed to have a police presence in Europe, the French will be happy to allow these people to travel through. Not our problem Tommy ..

  6. Ken500

    Do not believe the Polls. They will be being used to manipulate the vote.

    Tory tax (Gove) has made thousands of Oil & Gas workers lose their jobs. 60/80% tax when the price had fallen 75%. It is still 40%. The Tories are trying (deliberately) to destroy Scotland’s industry. Westminster policies cost Scotland £10Billion+ a year, which could be better spent.

    £1Billion lost on ‘loss leading’ cheap alcohol. £1Billion lost on Trident/illegal wars, £4Billion a year lost in Oil & Gas revenues, (£24 Billion). £3Billion? lost on tax evasion (eg whisky companies pay no tax), Scotland had to pay £4Billion in loan repayments Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend. There is Oil & Gas in the West. There is no commercial activities on the Clyde because of Faslane.

    The EU costs Scotland nothing and brings benefit. CAP payments, EU Grants, and shared Defence costs (less conflicts). If Scotland is out of the EU in a UK Union, the Westminster liars will destroy the Scottish economy. Scotland will lose the ‘right to self determination’ enshrined in European Human rights Law. Devolution and a right to a Referendum. The Unionists cheated and lied to win the last one. Breaking every election rule in the book.

    Westminster has caused the biggest migration crisis since 11WW and refuse to take responsibility. Westminster intends spending £20Billion a year (for ten years) on Hinkley and HS2. A disaster waiting to happen with no business case. The Tory slush fund to pass £Billions of public money to them and their associates. Like the RSB and the Royal Mail pension grab. Osbourne’s best man and brother in law (bankers) made £Millions. Cost the UK £ Billions.

    The Tories are cutting funding for the NHS and starving vulnerable people to death. Coming out of the EU in a UK Union is the worse case scenario for Scotland.

    The Tories are throwing good people out of Scotland, who came here legitimately, and have a right to stay.

  7. Ken500

    They even suggest that tests show that only 40/60% of people in Scotland can read. What complete and utter nonsense. The tests should be abolished. The teachers should get on with proper support teaching the children. Scotland has one of best education system in the world. Scottish invention shaped the modern world. Westminster Gov ruined it. Causing nothing but death and destruction.

  8. Fran

    Its the only argument they have but doesn’t effect Scotland, the largest immigrants come from RUK to here.
    700,000 left between 2003 & 2013. the clearances are still happening. The population of Scotland 1707 4.5m, 2016 population of Scotland 5.3m.

    Immigrants; Ruk .5m
    EU .15m
    Non EU ?

    The only country in the world where the population has not increased in 300yrs. Not exactly a sign of success/endorsement for the union.

  9. heedtracker

    If England does leave because of immigration, its just one more awful new Labour legacy.

  10. heedtracker

    Rancid The Graun, also very keen to get Scotland to vote out too, BetterTogether style

    “The leave campaign has picked up momentum and taken a three point lead over remain in the latest Observer/Opinium poll on the EU referendum. The Brexiters now stand on 43%, while 40% say they support the campaign to keep the UK in the union.

    The poll suggests the remain camp has lost four percentage points in the last two weeks, during which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have relentlessly campaigned on the theme of immigration.”

  11. Ken500

    Do not believe the Polls they are breaking Purdah. Gerrymandering and illegally influencing the vote. Unionist pollsters,

  12. heedtracker

    Massive YES Scotland switch, also explains UK media’s BetterTogether’s Brexit Scotland gerrymandering.

    Biggest Scotch whisky distiller Diageo won’t argue for Scotland remaining in UK in event of ?#?indyref2? after Brexit reports Sunday Times

  13. heedtracker

    John Major just finished explaining to Andrew Marr, England Brexit means losing control of Scotland ref2, Marr would then be a immigrant in England.

    Marr looks sad and or mad at prospect:D

  14. galamcennalath

    Good cartoon. Highlights a sad reality.

    The English (media and politicians at least) seem awfully het up about the EURef.

    I get the feeling that a lot of people in Scotland think we will be staying, one way or another.

  15. Ken500

    In or Out Scotland would manage but the worse scenario for Scotland is out in a UK Union. Westminstervwill continue to try and ruin the Scottish economy as they have done for over a hundred years. Trident/illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud, so Westminster and their associates can line their pockets with public money.

    Anyone can buy land in Scotland £5000 an acre over 25 years. Tax evasion is under Westminster control.

  16. Papko

    So if there is a Brexit, the case for indyref2, is that Scots are leaving the British Union to join the European Union.

    I would imagine we wont be keeping the pound then (why would we shackle ourselves to a members currency outwith our trading partners ).

    And will there be a border control between a NON- EU country and one that’s in ?

    Surely the EURO will make the most sense,if we are going to share a trading union , and some political sovereignty, we are as well going the whole hog.

    Unless RUK establishes some connection to the EU similar to Switzerland and Norway, where they still pay in, and still have to implement there laws.

    Not exactly a Brexit then though.

  17. Ken500

    Turkish nationalists killed Boris Johnston’s grandfather.

    Boris Johnston’s priviledge upbringing was paid by EU and public money. His father was an EU diplomat. He was born in the US and lived in Brussels. Boris Johnston is paid £1/2Million by tax evading Non Doms to write a newpaper column.

  18. Breeks

    TV is the opiate of the masses. Prolonged exposure dulls the analytical left side of the brain and inhibits critical discrimination.

    That is said about “normal” TV, not the rabid politicised propaganda we are routinely exposed to here in Scotland.

    Doing nothing, and placing your faith in the public’s growing dissatisfaction is the Scottish Government’s most reckless and dangerous policy in my humble opinion.

    We have truth on our side, but the propagandists have tapped into our physiology and routinely use it to their advantage. It empowers them to distort the truth and thus misrepresent our strength, diminishing our voice while empowering them.

    I am at a complete loss to reconcile the SNP’s reluctance to do anything about it. It “reads” like the SNP is out of its depth and has no effective countermeasure because it cannot think of one.

    Is that too harsh? In my humble experience doing absolutely nothing is the SNP’s preferred policy of choice. They are free to pursue their own policy of course, but I find it increasingly frustrating, and less convincing too, that they insist they’re the only show in town.

    If in doubt do nothing eh? My, my, such sullen confidence.

  19. Ken500

    It is possible Scotland can’t join the Euro because of the UK debt. The Eurozone has a ratio of capital to debt, per capita. The Eurozone is in less debt than the UK Treasury. Scotland coud work towards it. The pound is a tradable currency any country can use it.

  20. Ken500

    The Eurozone is in less debt than the UK Treasury, pro rata. The EU has 27 member States. 18 members in the Eurozone. 2/3.

  21. Tony Little


    That rather depends on what the ‘residual’ debt an iS would be willing to accept. It certainly isn’t a straight forward percentage based on population.

    Several years ago the Fraser of Allander Institute calculated that up to 2012 (I think that was the date from memory) had Scotland been Independent and assigned appropriate costs and revenues, it would have had a surplus of £64 bn. That seems like a start point to me.

  22. gus1940

    And now for some good news – only 14000 misguided individuals are now prepared to shell out the full cover price of The Scotsman so that they can writhe around in ecstasy in the biased filth excreted over them.

    There is, however, a black cloud looming over us – the 2nd. episode of the new Top Gear will be on tonight.

    After last week’s opening episode can it possibly get any worse or more boring? Still, The BBC seem to be so proud of it that not only did they repeat it once but it was shown a 3rd. time – either they are proud or desperate.

  23. Phronesis

    Immigration is not the cause of UKOK’s woes .A policy of austerity max and a failure to maintain the industrial heartlands and let our economic infrastructures wither over decades to focus on 1 geographic area and turn it into a bloated money laundering system is.

    Scotland should vote to remain and decide about its fate in Europe when Scotland is independent .

  24. sandycraig

    Excellent cartoon.
    Effijy @ 8.03

    That’s how so called journalists are nowadays. An article in the Sunday Post about Stewart Hosie two weeks ago was full of unsupported sources. Paragraphs all begin with the examples below.

    The SP has been told by a senior nationalist

    Rivals are understood to be preparing to topple him

    The episode has reportedly left NS livid

    It has been widely tipped

    A party source told the SP

    One senior party source told the SP

    An SNP MSP said

    It was reported that the party’s female MPs

    A Westminster source said.

    None of these above have been verified although I am a bit worried that the SP has many moles working in and around Holyrood.

    Utter garbage reporting that’s what I think.

  25. Ken500

    They always leave out the reason for the migration crisis in Europe. Westminster bombing the Middle East to bits for years.

    BBC spending £3.7Billion. Spewing out nonsense. What an absolute disgrace. Secretly paying ‘presenters’ and ‘celebrities’ £Millions year to present an 1 hour show five days a week. Or a once a week programme for three months. BBC secrecy and lies under Westminster control. The ‘News’ programmes just a pack of lies from start to finish. One of the only Channel worth watching is the Parliamentary Channel to see and hear what the corrupt Unionist liars are saying, before the lying, corrupt Press dilute it.

  26. schrodingers cat

    Scotland should vote to remain and decide about its fate in Europe when Scotland is independent .


    scot in uk out is scotlands best chance of indyref2 and ultimately indy scot.

    voting remain in the eu isnt a permanent situation, once indy this can be reversed.

    voting for an indy scot is permanent

  27. Petra

    If Engerland votes to leave, we vote to remain and it leads to our Independence many RUK companies will ‘move’ to Scotland and boost our economy. Additionally many EU countries have had enough of the ‘open door’ policy now so that could change over time. The latter would suit me as I’m in favour of something akin to the Australian points system.

    And just to mention astrologers (not everyone’s cup of tea I know) are saying the Brexit crew will win this month and we Scots will get our Independence in late 2018 / early 2019. Then Greece will leave the EU shortly thereafter followed by the EU ‘unraveling’.

    @ Effijy at 8:03am …..

    Great insightful post Effijy. That just about sums them up in relation to their attitude towards ‘child care’. As to Andy Murray isn’t it strange that he’s not received a knighthood yet or is it the case that his online comments the night before Indyref1 put paid to that?

  28. McDuff

    I want out of the Union and I also want out of the EU as it has become far too big, laden with tiers of burocracy and fat cat politicians inventing more red tape.
    Sorry to buck the trend but I`m voting out.

  29. heedtracker

    McDuff says:
    5 June, 2016 at 11:11 am
    I want out of the Union and I also want out of the EU as it has become far too big, laden with tiers of burocracy and fat cat politicians inventing more red tape.
    Sorry to buck the trend but I`m voting out.

    What does “laden with tiers of burocracy” mean? EU’s done a great deal for the Buchan coast.

  30. velofello

    @ Breeks: Perhaps the lack of firebrand politics by the SNP frustrates the Establishment the opportunity to act against them on trumped up allegations of “dark forces of separatism”?

    The performance of the SNP group at Westminster is outstanding – eloquent, well-informed, and with a level of individual professional expertise way beyond the Tories and Labour groups.

    I’m on alert waiting for the SNP to start their campaign on independence, and I’ll be out campaigning again, venting my frustration at the inequalities of UK governance.

    The spiteful cold treatment of the Brain family by Westminster, withdrawal of Renewables support, Oil and Gas industry taxation, Trident, HS2. there’s plenty of ammo for us to use when campaigning for independence, and with a bit more emphasis than the SNP are constrained to do.

  31. Legerwood

    Fran @ 8.27am

    I think you should check your population statistics for Scotland. Around 1700 Scotland had a population of 1 – 1.2 million almost evenly dispersed between the Highlands and Lowlands. By the mid-1700s the population had started to increase and continued to do so into the 19th century. By this time the population was becoming more concentrated in the Central Belt.

    Emigration started to increase during this time and at one point Scotland had the highest rate of emigration of any country in Europe.

    Our population now is at the highest level that has been for some time.

  32. Capella

    John Major is livid. How dare Brexiteers lie to the public in a referendum campaign! It’s “nonsense on stilts”.

  33. Dr Jim

    Nobody in the SNP tells the Press anything that they’re not cleared to tell
    That’s another reason why the Press hate them and have to make stuff up

    The SNP are not the Tory party or the Labour party, they don’t run around stabbing each other in the back to get promoted or get a better job, toys out the pram is a very rare thing in the SNP

    People like David Clegg, Cochrane, Gardham and the like are a joke to the very people they claim to be quoting anonymously and that’s why these papers never dare to use names

    The SNP play the game THEY want to play

  34. Scot Finlayson


    in reference to Andy Murray not being Knighted,

    one of the Lizzy`s lacky`s will have sounded him out to see if he would accept a Knighthood,

    if he said that he would not,Lizzy would not officially ask him and he would not be seen to be refusing the glorious monarch,

    Earls,Lords, Barons and Knights in the 21st century,

    what a backward elitist country the glorious UK is.

  35. Ian Brotherhood

    This Attenborough-narrated clip seems a perfect metaphor for the state of the Tories right now, but hard to decide which creature represents who.

    (If you’re not keen on hi-def close-ups of creepy-crawlies chasing each other and getting their heids chewed aff, give it a miss.)

    Kung Fu Mantis Vs Jumping Spider –

  36. Brian McHugh

    Legerwood, this graph from the ONS, compiled from census results, tells the story of Scotland being held back.

  37. crazycat

    @ Petra at 11.04

    What Scot Finlayson said at 11.39.
    Why on earth would Andy Murray want a knighthood? I cringe every time I hear about “Sir” Chris Hoy, or “Sir” Bradley Wiggins (especially Bradley Wiggins).

    I’ve just been to see Hamish, the film about Hamish Henderson which is now on general release – I would highly recommend it. He was sent a letter offering him an OBE. He tore it up and disposed of it in a suitable place. (I hope that’s not a spoiler; his refusal is pretty well-known.)

  38. Dave McEwan Hill

    Legerwood at 11.27

    But as a result only of inward migration, mostly from England (480,000, economically non-active retirees)and 100,000 from the EU.
    Scotland’s present population is marginally above its levels the start of WW1. England’s population over the period has more than doubled – as has Norways, Denmarks,etc, etc, etc. New Zealand’s has quadrupled. The population of the island of Ireland which was about a million and a half below Scotland’s in 1910 is now bigger.

    When Scotland joined in union with England in 1707 one person in five in the UK was Scottish.(It rose to one person in four by the late eighteenth century) It is now one person in twelve.

    The population figures tell you all you need to know about the “benefits” of the union.

  39. Almannysbunnet

    @ Petra 11:04

    Maybe Andy, like most true Scots, sees the honours system for what it is, a pat on the head for being obedient and doesn’t want a knighthood.

  40. Dave McEwan Hill

    As a Sunday rant I’m getting fed up with the “I’m a member/supporter of the SNP but I’m voting OUT because because etc etc etc”

    The greatest advantage to the independence cause and the SNP is if England votes OUT and we vote IN.
    What a huge opportunity – for anybody that actually supports/is member of the SNP and wants independence

    Why FFS would I then vote OUT

  41. G

    Kevin McKenna on Sunday Politics saying that some independence-supporting people could be tempted to vote Leave to secure another referendum. WTF are you talking about, Kevin? If Scotland votes Leave there will be no referendum! If you want another referendum, and you’re living in Scotland, you need to vote Remain.

    Are we going to see more hoodwinking of the Scottish electorate here, similar to the Scottish elections, where it’s argued that Scotland voting Remain is a foregone conclusion and that somehow we can vote to Leave and push the UK out whilst still having a Scottish Remain vote? No one can be so stupid as to believe that proposition, surely?

  42. Breeks

    @Velofello 11.22

    Nope. Not buying that. There is very broad spectrum of opportunity to do something measured, effective and rational in between doing nothing, and firebrand politics.

    I’m glad to hear SNP conducts itself with professionalism in certain quarters, I cannot say the same in my own experience, but nevertheless, given the daily propaganda-fest of Unionist TV, what good is it actually doing them?

    If a tree falls in the forest, does it make any sound? If an SNP MP performs well in office, when and how will we hear about it? That narrative simply isn’t going to reach the ordinary people of Scotland who don’t routinely scan the small print for objective political news about Scotland.

  43. Almannysbunnet

    O/T but I couldn’t hold it in!

    How factual, fair and balanced do you find these two articles on the BBC Scotland website? One is on the fracking vote which “the SNP lost” and one is on the Ruthie party plan to debate and scrap the NP initiative next week. The implication, little Liam died in spite of the named persons act.

    Hopefully like me you see through the blatant slanting of these stories.

    Be in no doubt the BBC is the biggest danger to Scottish independence!

  44. G

    Almannysbunnet 12:10

    I agree. There is no way that Andy hasn’t already been offered a knighthood, or they’ve been told in advance that he wouldn’t accept it.

  45. carjamtic

    Very good Chris,Poison Ivy (non native) thriving at the altar of political expediency,most of it of the negative variety, as you highlight very well,with immigration.

    I offer a plus for Eu in,the Hydrogen Bus project operating in Aberdeen is an example of a positive,the high costs of initial set up being offset by Eu grants,allowing bus operators to progress this from being not just a good idea,but to reality and ‘the wheels of the bus going round and round’.

    This is just an example of a wee positive,from being a Eu member,the positives from any of the politicians seem to be a bit thin on the ground,could it be their type of transport has affected their mindset… ‘battle bus’ ?.


  46. Macart

    Nice one Chris.

    The eventual destination of a runaway narrative of fear and othering.

  47. Dr Jim


    At one point Kevin McKenna says “We in the Labour party”

    Now if memory serves did not this same man say he had gone over to the SNP
    Has he gone back again? or will he be a Liberal Democrat tomorrow, or does anyone really care what Kevin McKenna thinks or most of the time doesn’t think

    There was something worse earlier though on the named person act where Gordon Brewer was becoming almost incensed at not being told who the named person was and if there was one, it was practically “We want the name and we want it now” and trying to trick the social work man into accusing Big Mooth Ruth of being the person who started the trouble over it

    Puzzling isn’t it where in the English press Ruth Davidson would be hauled over the coals for her inappropriate Tweetings but in Scotland the Press stay silent in case it damages the Union case for ongoing dictatorship

  48. Valerie

    Good toon, Chris.

    And talking of poison, we will have to endure the debasing spectacle of poor Liam Fee getting dragged through the mud next week, for the Opposition’s pleasure, as they try to hammer the NP legislation.

    I left my local anti fracking group last night. It’s a big thing for me, but after two years, and nothing but getting hammered by the Green and RISE screaming at me for being stupid in the last year, to support SNP, I’m done with the level of stupidity.

    Apparently Ross Greer knows more than independent planning lawyers, and we can ban fracking. So that’s the law now, get it out there.

    They hate facts, they hate evidence, which means they are more interested in fighting and SNP bad, than actually engaging on the issue of fracking.

  49. heedtracker

    At one point Kevin McKenna says “We in the Labour party”

    Now if memory serves did not this same man say he had gone over to the SNP

    There are no SNP voting journalists in the grand olde UKOK main stream meeja, none.

  50. louis.b.argyll

    Why is England so insecure, in general?

    There are 50 million of them, in a green and pleasant land.

    Why, if not for financial gain, should they meddle in others’ democracy?

    Why, over hundreds of years of advancement has Scotland seen NEGATIVE ECONOMIC GROWTH within a UK relative index.

    Why oh why oh why…?

  51. Dave McEwan Hill

    Good to see that the Sunday Herald has substantially increased its circulation and is now far ahead of Scotland on Sunday

  52. Dr Jim

    For all the folk living in England Wales and Northern Ireland you should definitely vote OUT without question it’s the best thing for you and you know you want to get rid of all these horrible foreigners and be in control and all those really really good things

    For us in Scotland IN IN IN and then we can get OUT OUT OUT of the United England of Great England and be normal folk who vote our own people to get our own say in what the hell goes on in our own country and stop being told by England that we are ONE Fukcing country until it comes to democracy and then we’re told there’s more of them than us so shut the Fukc up Scotland

    A word for thick fishermen, it’s not the fault of the EU things aren’t right it’s the fault of the A,Holes in Westminster London England who won’t let your own Scottish politicians represent you in Brussels, maybe you’ll consider voting YES next time to Independence while you’ve still got any fishing left, because if you leave it to Westminster they’ll sell it to somebody, or deal it away

    If you voted NO you’ve got no right to moan or blame the SNP
    You would only have had that right if we’d been Independent

  53. heedtracker

    louis.b.argyll says:
    5 June, 2016 at 1:00 pm
    Why is England so insecure, in general?

    Their tory led BBC Britnat media keeps them in a perpetual state of “oh my god, I’m losing out, I’m losing out to immigrants, the rich, the poor, the EU, we’re losing Scotland, we’re losing world prestige, we’re always threatened by baddies, foreigners…”

    You could do this all day.

    Today, a Scots athlete’s achieved an extraordinary level of global sporting success, culminating in giant final in Paris that the whole world will watch, far more than will ever watch a cricket match, but its hardly mentioned by any teamGB media and buried away by the ever more ghastly BBC Scotland.

    Front page BBC creep show headline this afternoon

    Shotts street disturbance death ‘suspicious’

  54. schrodingers cat

    re legal advice on fracking
    have been asking for clarification from local snp branch, and from lallans peat worrier, none so far. not sure why snp reluctant to release legal advice, it only leaves idiots like ross greer to spout rubbish.

    re, mckenna, i think he still is labour, i think eventually, slab will support his position of indy scot

    re, named person discussion. the journo was ill prepared and very weak. he should have said that since the details are unknown, he was railing at ruthies slurr. she got off scott free in that interview

    re- brewer interview
    quite a lot of mistakes from all of them,including brewer,
    the senario in question was as i pointed out earlier. the entire interview was a complete cluster f**k

  55. Scot Finlayson

    I thought Brewer was despicable in his frothing interrogation of Children’s Commissioner in Scotland, Tam Baillie,

    all Mr Baillie was trying to do was clarify the situation about Named Person`s in the whole Liam Fee sadness,

    all the BBC bully,frothing phyco Brewer was trying to do was keep the public misinformed about Named Person`s and try to discredit Mr Baillie,

    as for Mr Mckenna,I have no idea what he was on about,looked like he was either hungover,stoned,both or stuck in that chair from the last time he was there.

  56. The Man in the Jar

    @louis b. argyle
    at 1pm: 05/06/2016

    “Why is England so insecure, in general?
    There are 50 million of them, in a green and pleasant land.”

    Well according to a quote by Thomas Carlisle when asked the population of England. “Thirty million, mostly fools”

    (Does not account for population growth, obviously)

  57. louis.b.argyll

    Are we going to commemorate the hundredth anniversary of every sunken warship and every ill-advised military operation..?

    Its going to be a busy century for the stiff upper lip, covering up the failings of the subsequent generations.

    Every single one of us complicit in the military bullying of the less developed world.

    It sickens we should remove ourselves from it, unilaterally, as Scotland.

  58. Sunniva

    @Fran, the population of Scotland in 1707 was NOT 4.5million! Historians do not have accurate figures, only guesses, as the first official census did not take place until 1801. But it is estimated that the figure in 1707 would be around one million.

    An unofficial census was organised by the Rev Webster in the middle of the 18th century which estimated the population of Scotland using parish records, at about 1.2 million. Scotland was one of the first countries in Europe to develop an interest in demographic information and Rev Webster’s initiative was followed in the 1780s by the First Statistical Account of Scotland, using the Church of Scotland’s parish records. Ministers sent in detailed accounts of their parishes.

    One thing is for sure though, and that is that whereas in 1707 this was around 20% of the figure for the whole of the UK, today it is only 8%.

  59. Legerwood

    Brian McHugh @ 11.50 am
    Dave McEwan Hill @ 12.09 pm

    Nowhere in my post did I say or suggest that Scotland’s population had grown exponentially under the Union indicating a thriving country. The high rate of emigration in the 19th and 20th century showed the opposite to be the case.

    While it is at its highest now that does not say much. The high rate of emigration during the 19th and into the 20th century

    I was pointing out that Fran’s figures were wrong – I think the figures quoted by her for the 1707 population was around 6 million. Not a figure that should be allowed to go uncorrected – don’t you agree?

  60. Thepnr

    Although a vote to remain is still the bookies favourite I can see the Brexit vote winning this referendum. I was looking at the results from the latest Yougov poll for the Times and there are some very interesting numbers in there.

    Remain and leave both polled 41%, 13% don’t know and 4% would not vote.

    The interesting figures though are only 36% of those that voted Tory in the GE back Cameron and will vote to Remain 50% want to leave. We all know that older voters are much more likely to vote, worryingly for the Remain camp a massive 58% of the 65+ age group want out and only 27% back staying in.

    The momentum seems to be with the Leave camp, when will Cameron unveil the EU Vow to limit immigration to the UK with all the EU leaders signatures on parchment?

    Better remember to stock up on the popcorn early before the shops run out!

  61. Legerwood


    Here is a link to a Q&A session on Fracking. An lawyer specialising in environmental issues is supplying the answers. A bit long but worth a read.

  62. Kevin Meina

    I thought Tam Baillie was very poor and for someone who was very vocal in his article when he obviously had time to think about it ,but when harangued for an answer continued to repeat the same line very unconvinicly .

  63. heedtracker

    Remain and leave both polled 41%, 13% don’t know and 4% would not vote.

    Project Fear 2 reaches same Scots ref terrifying levels in their 2 week time, so same as Scotland, remain win 55/45.

    Big worries for red and blue tory yoon culture, Scotland votes stay and its enough to keep England in too. Major 2014 Vote NO or you’re out of EU Project Fearing goes pop, enraged tory England on the war path.

    Which is why this kind of creepy vote Brexit Scotland, oozes out of Pacific Quay

    Do Scots really feel more positive about the EU?

    By Sarah Smith
    Scotland editor, SLab and UKOK propagandist

  64. velofello

    @ Breeks: Seen the Vimto clip on the YesRegistry? It’s on Twitter.

    Wings, Newsnet, WGD, Derek Bateman, Peat Woorrier the SNP, dish the Unionist lies, provide the ammo, Yes Registry do the talking to the public via street stalls, social events etc.

  65. Dan Huil

    First things first: end the debilitating union with England.

  66. Thepnr


    “Project Fear 2 reaches same Scots ref terrifying levels in their 2 week time, so same as Scotland, remain win 55/45.”

    Yep, very plausible. It will all come done as to the typical type of voter that bothers their arse to turnout. I think the Tory voter (mostly Leave) and the older voter (mostly Leave) will have the biggest turnout of all groups.

    Squeaky bum time for Cameron, so your surely right heedtracker. The dirty tricks department of the Establishment will be pulling out all the stops in the last couple of weeks.

  67. Dan Huil

    The hypocritical BBC in Scotland is doing everything it can to bring Scotland down to England’s racist level. Truly disgusting.

  68. ScottishPsyche

    Like others. I noticed McKenna giving himself away. He probably ‘lent’ his vote to the SNP in 2007 and has been regretting it ever since, Either that or he saw independence as a way for SLab to regain its previous glory.

    I utterly despair of our press. Angela Haggerty’s piece was welcome but far too late to do anything except provoke another perfect response from You know who.

    Anyway speaking of Rowling. Is there anyone else in the UK who can shut down a discussion like her? She is the worst thing to happen to free speech in this country. Her stranglehold on the press is both sinister and baffling.

    That ScottishPEN have her as a spokesperson is completely ludicrous.

  69. bjsalba


    Please provide actual evidence for your assertions about the EU being “far too big, laden with tiers of burocracy and fat cat politicians inventing more red tape”.

    And by proof I do not mean the unsubstantiated maunderings of the UK MSM.

  70. heedtracker

    The dirty tricks department of the Establishment will be pulling out all the stops in the last couple of weeks.


    Yes, when the non political queen makes her, “England should think very carefully about going it alone” threats from her Balmoral palace, church car park or where ever, they’ll have reached the peak of Project Fear terrify the electorate.

    Although the queen’s probably not that bothered either way in this ref. That lot do get millions of euro’s in EU subsidies too though, free money is still free money, who ever gives them it.

  71. schrodingers cat

    a 60/40 remain in scotlad is work about +2% to the over all remain vote

    a poll with 41% in and out is probably worth +2% to the over all leave vote, due to their motivation to get out and vote

    which means it is the 13% which will decide it. PF2 is aimed at them

    i think they will fall in/out 7/6 or 8/5

    presently i think remain is leading 52/48

    if it is remain wins by less than 2 %, it will be the scots who will be blamed for keeping the uk in the eu by the brexiters. good

    this is going to be very close, keep an eye on the polls

  72. HandandShrimp

    I may be imagining it but radio shortbread seems to be increasingly leaning more towards Brexit.

    I am mildly surprised but I suppose they could be hedging their bets now Out is in the lead in the UK as a whole.

    Risky strategy though.

  73. Thepnr

    schrodingers cat

    “if it is remain wins by less than 2 %, it will be the scots who will be blamed for keeping the uk in the eu by the brexiters. good”

    If Leave win, then Indy Ref2 may be on the cards. Win Win for Scots that support Independence.

  74. Ken500

    Do not thrust the Polls. They are used to deceive, manipulate and illegally gerrymander.

    For a organisation of 500Million people the EU administration is better and more open than Westminster. How much does it cost with the unelected Lords?

  75. Orri

    Given some SNP voters may have fallen for the SNP/Green vote perhaps they’ll be a wee bit less inclined to jump at some cockeyed idea of voting leave in the hope that somehow the result in Scotland is Remain.

    All that “strategy” does is lessen the disparity between the Scottish and rUK or English result. It’s that disparity that will make the case. Leave against a definite and unquestionable Remain result in Scotland is perhaps an ideal outcome. A bare percentage Remain in Scotland will be less convincing.

    In some circumstances though given the underlying xenophobia in the Leave campaign a resounding Remain result from us which swings the UK result might also be of some advantage.

  76. heedtracker

    I may be imagining it but radio shortbread seems to be increasingly leaning more towards Brexit.

    I am mildly surprised but I suppose they could be hedging their bets now Out is in the lead in the UK as a whole.

    They’re NOT supposed to be a UKOK political party. They are ofcourse and they blatantly lie to us and the whole world that they are so apolitical, impartial and trustworthy.

  77. Brian Powell

    I now find TV shows, like Sunday Politics, utterly bizarre, especially on a subject such as the EU Referendum. We are not voting for the individuals there. They have no position other than their own. Their own opinions.

    Meaningless discussions.

  78. schrodingers cat

    the pnr

    there are a few results of this ref which favour indy scot

    im quite up beat

  79. John Edgar

    The mask is down. Farage is now trumpeting that the migrants will be after our “women”. If ever there is a time to have Scotland out of the UK, it is now. The English xenophobists and fellow supporters give an indication that we must get out of the UK!
    Irrespective of whether we wish left, centre) left, centre- right or coalition governments of the able in Scotland in the immediate aftermath of independence, it will be a step forward. Full sovereign control and the power to elect governments we choose and unelect when we choose, is a fundamental right we DO NOT HAVE AT PRESENT. That is better than having the absurdity of having one Tory MP who becomes Secy of State; it is a disaster when it is someone like Mundell!! Add in EVEL and the unelected HoL with former yoons as Lords, and the nightmare scenario increases.
    The independence2 forces must cooperate and coordinate. Together we are stronger! After independence, a government at Holyrood of national unity to clear up the detritus of 300 plus years of union! If we cannot do that, then we are still cottars in our own land. Landless, voteless, witless,powerless, hapless, defenceless and senseless.

  80. schrodingers cat

    if the indyref split scotland and intensified a division then this eu ref is doing the same for the uk
    the uk is disintegrating
    bbc pravda is being damaged too,

    good, keep it coming

    regardless of the result
    tories in melt down, majority threatened by election fraud investigations, blair about to face the publication of enquiry

    snp as popular as ever and the unionist discredited and facing another wipeout in 2017 local elections

    whats not to like?

  81. heedtracker

    Watching Murray right the noo and its probably fair to say our fellow EU French tennis fans really hate Scotland.

  82. Brian McHugh

    Fair do’s Legerwood at 1:40… I let Frans figure slide, as the principle of relative lack of Scottish population growth was not in debate. 😉

  83. Thepnr


    I think they hate Britain more. Understandable really.

  84. heedtracker

    Thepnr says:
    5 June, 2016 at 3:43 pm

    I think they hate Britain more. Understandable really.

    Maybe. Its just rich Paris.

    Saw a Hibs shirt in the Paris crowd though. Uh oh.

  85. Valerie

    Legerwood @ 1.55

    I have pointed up that Talking Mince blog, as well as a very good piece in yesterday’s Herald. A planning solicitor from Wedderburn and Shepherd, nothing to do with SNP, completely agreeing with the SG strategy.

    Ross Greer, appointed MSP a few weeks ago, who has ‘hated by Bath bloggers’ in his Twitter bio, who insults female activists about their size, is patently a much more reliable source on which to base your assertions that the SG are liars.

    There comes a point as a party member, after months of this crap, when you just have to withdraw, because you are a target.

    It goes:

    SNP are always lying;

    Me: When?


    And that’s when it’s easy.

    Then some twit attacks me over NP, saying he had supported the legal action against the SG, as the NP, will ‘rip families sport’s. So I asked if that’s what happened in Highlands, where it’s ran for years – silence.

    As I say, I now just represent a target, and the Mods of the group are happy about that, because it helps SNP bad on the page.

  86. mike cassidy

    Capella 11.30

    Here’s John Major contributing to Project Fear during the Scottish Referendum

    Loved this.

    “And, is it not bizarre for the SNP to campaign to leave one highly successful Union, whilst applying to join another far less successful one that is seen – even by its most ardent advocates – to be in serious need of reform?”

  87. Petra

    I don’t think that Andy Murray is adverse to receiving a knighthood at all and has already accepted an OBE from the future King Billy.

    Andy Murray: I don’t deserve a knighthood yet

    Jamie Murray won’t call his brother “Sir” if Andy gets a knighthood


    EU: The Scots get £20 in return for every £1 given.


    @ Dave McEwan Hill says at 1:04 pm …. ”Good to see that the Sunday Herald has substantially increased its circulation and is now far ahead of Scotland on Sunday.”

    I’m not one bit surprised Dave as their articles are excellent as too in relation to The National with Alex contributing now to the latter re. the EU. You wont find any other newspapers offering a platform to Alex, Mhairi, Tommy Sheppard, Weegingerdug, MacIntyre-Kemp and so on or providing such informative articles (data withheld by other newspapers).


    Scotlands depopulation: Westminster has done EVERYTHING in its power to ‘clear’ Scotland for centuries now (and want to stuff it full of rUK No voting folks). Example after example online such as replacing us with sheep to recruiting our young ‘expendable’ men.

    I also watched a BRILLIANT documentary recently entitled ‘Scotland The Promised Land Ep 2 / 3 – Home for Highland Heroes.’ It’s no longer available on BBCiplayer but can be seen at daily I can’t archive it. Maybe someone else could do so and post it on here? Westminster paid £3 million every year for 10 years (between 1920 – 1930) to rid themselves of the Scots. 85,000 left Scotland in 1923 alone. Over 500,000 during that 10 year period.

    Scots are still leaving in their thousands every year to be replaced by individuals from rUK and abroad. Independence can’t come soon enough, imo.

  88. McDuff


    22 countries and growing, that’s big even if you don`t think so. But maybe you could enlighten me as to when you would consider “too big“, 30? 50?. As far the multi lairs of burocracy are concerned perhaps you could provide me with the evidence that it is not the case.
    At the end of the day its just my opinion, its called free speech.

  89. Legerwood

    Valerie @ 3.49pm

    Yes I saw the article in yesterday’s Herald that you refer to. As usual the headline was at odds with the main point that the solicitor made, namely that the SNP’s strategy of a moratorium on Fracking while gathering evidence was the correct one. Of course you had to read far into the article before that nugget appeared.

    It certainly helped to highlight the fact that a ban, whether open to challenge or not, was not the right strategy.

  90. heedtracker

    As far the multi lairs of burocracy are concerned perhaps you could provide me with the evidence that it is not the case.

    If you think comments like there’s too much EU “multi lairs of burocracy” without anything to back it up, you’re probably on the wrong site.

  91. schrodingers cat

    thanks for the link,

  92. bugsbunny

    Just listening to Magic Radio this very moment, when the DJ announced about the SCOT Andy Murray who WASN’T DOING VERY GOOD at the moment.

    So if he was getting along dandy would he be the BRIT Andy Murray?

    I’m getting fecking sick to the back teeth with this pish.

    Stephen Roney.

  93. galamcennalath

    WGD sums up the EURef situation and England voting leave, perfectly … “It could be argued less than three weeks from now that Scotland would have voted twice to remain part of the EU, once in the independence referendum and again in the EU referendum. ….. if Scotland is to find itself being taken out of the EU… Material changes in circumstance do not come any more material”

  94. heedtracker

    Material changes in circumstance do not come any more material”

    Its really wrong to think proud Scot buts will switch to YES if its Brexit, for all kinds of reasons. If they didn’t think Scotland could run its own affairs 2014, Brexit will frighten them them even more and they’ll cling even harder to England running Scotland for them.

    If you’re a YESer, vote EU, for Scotland’s sake.

  95. yesindyref2

    Good to see Angela Haggerty writing a good article in the SH about the attack on the SNP in the media, a bit of a peace initiative.

    I see on BC an article about the yes register, with one comment. I posted a brief informative comment but I’m obviously still blocked. It’s about the 5th useful informative post I’ve made, and it’s funny which is why I’m doing it. Their blocking loses them potentially valuable info 🙂 I’ll keep doing it every so often as it gives me a laugh, sad person I am.

    What I said in reply to Onwards was that Yes Scotland Ltd has its company house submissions up to date, and is still registered till 2019 (whereas bettertogether dot net is now a communications marketing trap or something). Yes, and Blair Jenkins is still a director and chief executive. Which is interesting. Presumably a holding operation, and very wise too.

  96. galamcennalath

    The only time in the last 300 years there has been a Partnership Union was within the propaganda of BT during IndyRef.

    On the 19th Sept, London reverted to the imperialism and exceptionalism of Greater England.

    And, it is with that framework they view EURef.

  97. Petra

    @ Thepnr says 2:51 pm …. ”schrodingers cat – “if it is remain wins by less than 2 %, it will be the scots who will be blamed for keeping the uk in the eu by the brexiters. good”

    If Leave win, then Indy Ref2 may be on the cards. Win Win for Scots that support Independence.”

    And around 18 million English people, in / out – either way, will be wishing we’d gotten our Independence after all. Hell mend them.

  98. Dave McEwan Hill

    Legerwood at 1.40

    No problem

  99. Valerie

    @Legerwood & Cat

    After spending most of the week enduring SNP bad about the vote, and some in the group quoting Labour, me trying to point out the clown show, the resident conspiracy theorist posted the Herald article triumphantly announcing the SNP strategy was now debunked. He had only read the headline.

    I thanked him for the good find, and pointed out the good bits, saying it was reassuring. It was all met with a deafening silence, after it had been mob rule all week.

    Then, after about 7 hours, the thread burst into life with the usual garbage based on nothing. One regular posted that frackers are similar to paedophiles.

    I think that was the tin lid. It looks like a group with some serious nutters now.

    Cannot be arsed. Plenty other venues to be of use, especially when so many alleged Indy supporters are raging to vote Leave.

  100. HandandShrimp

    While it is certainly mathematically possible that a Scottish Remain vote could keep the UK in the EU and I would laugh like a drain if it happened….(doesn’t make you a bad person) but it is starting to look like Out is gaining traction in England.

    In still has to play its trump card though…an out vote would invite alien invasion and mass anal probing.

  101. Thepnr

    “Invasion of the Anal Probing Brexiteers” rather than a Vow?

  102. Gary45%

    Nice one Chris.
    As the Yoon media blatantly make up bollocks every day,
    would it be ok to start accusing and naming Yoons of paedophilia ,rape, murder etc ?

    Would it be ok to take them on at their own game, but ramp it up to 11?

    Just asking like.

  103. Dr Jim

    I’ve been to a ton of countries in my life and they all have one thing in common, they all dislike the British

    But strangely enough, they all love the Scots

    So I wonder what that means and which British they’re talking about

  104. Cal


    You’ve got to do it in the right order.

    1. Remain first,

    2.Yes to Independence,

    Then, and ONLY THEN,

    3.Leave in a Scottish EU referendum.

    Anything else and you blow this chance for us to get out of the UK. Of course, I’m assuming you DO want to get out of the UK, don’t you?

  105. Calum McKay

    Scots voting overwhelmingly to remain in the EU is the only way Scots will get another referendum. This is caveated by two outcomes, first England votes to leave taking the rest of the uk with them or second a very narrow win for the remain camp and Scots votes have kept the uk in the EU.

    Today Gordon Brewer was coming up with nonsense that some SNP supporters might vote to leave the EU to get a second referendum???

    It does not take a genius to to understand that if Scots vote to leave the EU along with the rest of the uk, then the grounds for a second referendum related to the EU vote are not there.

    Why Brewer would choose to open this line of thought is beyond me!

  106. Iain More

    I have enjoyed the Naw Bag UKOKer tearing lumps out of each and kicking seven bells out of each other and it is getting worse.

    However I cant wait to get this EU Referendum nonsense out of the way. My gut tells me that Ingerland is going to vote to Leave and Scotland will vote to stay in the EU, hence the increasingly hysterical outbursts from the UKOK Remain Campaign. The Brit Establishment is well fucked in that scenario so they will rig it one way or another.

    I am more looking forward to meeting up with my old Yes group again once this EU Referendum is out of the way and firing things up again for a Referendum that is about us and not some Eton schoolboys fight going public. Tick tock as somebody keeps saying!

  107. Almannysbunnet

    Enoch (rivers of blood) Powell would be a proud Brexiteer. Nothing has changed in the conservative party in 50 years. Enoch railing against Commonwealth immigrants and anti-discrimination has morphed into his heirs railing against EU immigrants. Using “the furriners are coming” is all they really have.

    Ironically if we vote out Britian will become the unwelcome foreigners.

    Scottish first, British never.

  108. Inverclyder


    EU vote has both sides going into meltdown
    Andy Murray not English shocker!
    Hopes of Engerluuund winning Euro 2016 fading after Portugal friendly
    Farage doing some dodgy scaremongering
    Riots at Epsom Derby

    How can it get any worse?

    Original Stonehenge was dismantled in Wales and moved to Wiltshire, archaeologists believe

  109. Liz Rannoch

    @ Heedtracker 3.11
    @ Calum McKay 6.53

    I think the reasons behind this is the same as the MSM support of Greens, Rise et al before the SG election. Get them to split the ‘natural’ vote of ‘separatists’ so that we can’t then use a low Scottish remain vote as fodder for Indyref2.

  110. John

    Calum McKay@6.53
    Gordon Brewer was doing what Gordon Brewer does best , tries to totally confuse any SNP voter , just like BC did telling SNP voters to vote Green during the election .With all his mumblings , his if’s and buts , and a little innuendo here and another there ,at the end of his program you can be tearing your hair out looking for clarification on anything he has been discussing . Anything he says is best completely ignored .He was trying it again by telling us we should be voting leave . Common sense tells you if we vote stay , and RUK vote leave , it could lead to indy2 .

  111. Petra

    @ Inverclyder at 8:13pm …. Stonehenge.

    Engerland doesn’t seem to have a lot going for it. Stonehenge Welsh and King Arthur from Govan, lol. Knocking from everyone else from day one.

  112. Petra

    On the other hand!

    ”We’ve had our historical troubles to bear. The Caledonian influences on the Ku Klux Klan – founded by emigrant Scots cavalry officers within the Confederate Army in 1860, its oaths taken from the Society of the Horseman’s Word in North East Scotland, its burning cross taken from the call to arms by Scottish clans in the 14th century, the Confederate flag formed in a saltire shape – are lurid enough.”

  113. Keith

    Now we are racists if we think immigration went too far?

    And nobody, not even Tommy Shepherd, can come out with a good reason to stay in the EU that doesn’t involve project fear. Can’t we co-operate, trade, form alliances, be friends without being locked into a deal that has a parliament in Brussels?

    The alternative, as put to us by the remain camp, seems to be that we risk the break down of all alliances, an acceptance of anything westminster wants to impose and maybe even a return to european wars. Oh Please!

  114. Robert J. Sutherland

    heedtracker @ 14:03 said:

    Big worries for red and blue tory yoon culture, Scotland votes stay and its enough to keep England in too.

    This is the golden result. Not too likely, alas, because the exact balance is hard to achieve, but (as I was saying in a recent earlier thread) the implications for indy are immense. Here’s what could happen:

    + Cameron resigns, the Tories have a leadership election, and Boris wins.

    + The Brexiteers are almighty miffed – the “tail wagging the dog” once again – until they realise there is a way out.

    + Boris offers Nicola a deal: English independence, ie. a mutual agreement without a second referendum to separate, Scotland to continue as successor state to the UK re the EU, and England+Wales to negotiate its way out of the EU in parallel with breaking with Scotland.

    It has only a slim chance of being possible, but surely one worth voting “Remain” in Scotland for!

  115. Scot Finlayson

    Andy Murray needs to get on the drugs if he wants to beat Djokovic,Nadal and Federer.

  116. John

    Scott Finlayson
    Remember Rome in May ? , straight sets win for Murray over Djokovic !

  117. Scot Finlayson

    Lance Armstrong never failed a drugs test,

    and yet he was doped up continually for over 10 years,

    the governing bodies in all sports do not want to lose the advertising dollar so make sure doping is not reported,

    drugs do not give you skill,they give you stamina and recovery.

  118. Lochside

    Pat Kane: pseudo intellectual arsehole with an inbuilt cringe:

    ”We’ve had our historical troubles to bear. The Caledonian influences on the Ku Klux Klan – founded by emigrant Scots cavalry officers within the Confederate Army in 1860, its oaths taken from the Society of the Horseman’s Word in North East Scotland, its burning cross taken from the call to arms by Scottish clans in the 14th century, the Confederate flag formed in a saltire shape – are lurid enough.”

    The KKK were not formed by emigrant Scots. Brigadier George Gordon and General Bedford Forrest were of Scots origins…but so was John Brown the abolitionist who tried to free slaves, unsuccessfully, in the pre-war. Confederate veterans were responsible,but they were not Scottish born.

    Walter Scott was a favourite author in the Old South and plantations and other aspects of Southern society modelled themselves on Scottish history…hence the fiery Cross adoption. Southerners were by and large of UK stock with Scots and Ulster Scots over-represented in the Rebel Army. This was why they chose the Saltire for the Confederate battle flag…during the war and long before criminal elements created the KKK in post war South.

    Incidentally, West Virginia came into being because that part of Virginia, predominantly ‘hill-billy’ Ulster Scots, decided to side with the Union against the aristocratic slave owners ( mainly of Anglo-Saxon) descent in the rest of the state. Pennsylvania was similarly ethnically Scots and remained in the Union.

    Why oh why are we overloaded with chattering empty vessels like Kane, who are ready to denigrate Scotland and its history at the drop of a hat? He and Rise and the rest of the Liberal Left are basically parasites who despise the rank and file YES people. They think they are an intellectual elite..but have nothing to add to our cause except self-loathing.

    Kane is a verbose poseur without an original thought or idea in his baldy head. His knowledge of History is as about as thorough as his understanding of dialectical materialism.

  119. ben madigan

    brexit is an English problem and what’s more it’s a tory problem.

    if brexit happens it’s impossible to predict what the future of the UK might look like or even whether it will exist at all in its current form
    Scotland, northern ireland and Wales – if they vote remain – may well stay as England alone negotiates its way out of the EU

  120. Gary45%

    Gordon Brewer, should start to make his Sunday Shite more plausible by wearing his pants on his head whilst broadcasting.
    It would still be mind numbingly shite but you would at least get a laugh at his incompetence.

    Regarding SCOTLANDS Andy Murray.
    Better to lose clean than win a cheat.

    Djokovic is clean, it just happens to be,that he is the greatest tennis player ever.

  121. Tam Jardine

    Dave McEwan Hill & Legerwood

    On the subject of population stats I was doing a bit of arguing on Kevin Hague’s site recently. I put forward a reheated Wings comment of mine thus:

    “I downloaded population levels for a list of 227 territories and countries from wikipedia. I deleted the UK and bunged in the data for Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland and started sorting it by population change for given periods. For the period 1950-2000 there were only 2 territories on Planet Earth out of the 229 where the population fell. In the bottom spot with a population decrease of 71% was Montserrat. 2nd bottom is the country you assert has been benefiting from all this pooling and sharing. Scotland’s population shrank by about 2% in that period.

    I know population growth alone does not a strong economy make but if you are telling me that we are ‘Better Together’ when our population growth during the 2nd half of the 20th century is sandwiched at the bottom of the international table between a remote island where half the landmass was rendered uninhabitable by a massive volcanic eruption and almost all the population made homeless by Hurricane Hugo… between that and tiny St Kitts and Nevis then I just don’t buy it.”

    The response to this was:

    “I think you are making a false comparison (not deliberately). Moving between sovereign states is difficult. Moving from one part of a sovereign state to another is not. The world population has increased and so the population of every sovereign state has increased. But many countries have had significant internal migration that has reduced the population of individual regions/provinces/countries.

    For example, West Virginia has suffered an absolute decline in population over the same period, from 2 million in 1950 to 1.8 million now.

    Several of Spain’s autonomous communities have also suffered declines. Extramadura went from 1.38 million in 1960 to 1.11 million now.

    Abruzzo in Italy had a population of 1.28 million in 1951, by 2001 it had declined to 1.26 million, although it has recovered since to 1.34 million.

    Scotland’s slow population growth isn’t unique when measured against other sub-national territories.”

    This is where I think the difference lies. If you do not consider Scotland to be a country- if you think of it as a “sub-national territory” then population decreases, asset stripping, resource plundering and decades of neglect and deceit are acceptable as the welfare of the UK or Greater England is everything.

    If you consider Scotland to be a country, YOUR country then none of these things is acceptable. I struggle to relate to someone who considers my country, my Scotland a “sub-national territory” and who considers her population shrinking by 3.2% between 1971 and 2001 no big deal. I also struggle to relate to someone comparing Scotland to the poorest region in Spain, one of the poorer Italian regions and the US state with the second lowest GDP.

  122. Effijy

    In and out of the car today catching segments of the French Tennis Open.

    I could only listen to the match on EBC Radio.
    Nothing to do with the match outcome, I’d consider this to me the worst sporting radio commentary of all time.

    I think they hired a Serbian Parrot that kept saying with suppressed glee “Another mistake from the Murray racket”.
    For me another mistake from the EBC!

    The co-commentator I feel certain was the Rev I.M.Jolly.
    I lost count of the number of times he didn’t finish his sentence, only for silence to follow?

    To make the broadcast complete, they filled in their lack of enthusiasm and lack of tennis knowledge by sharing text messages from listeners who were willing to share that they were listen from outside the Vets, from the garden, from the garden while drinking beer?
    Who would have thought such things would be going on?
    We really need this info when the world number 1 & 2 meet.

    Absolute dross from EBC, I’ll take back that 1 out of 10 score I had rated then at before the match.

  123. Legerwood

    Tam Jardine @ 10.22 pm

    “” 2nd bottom is the country you assert has been benefiting from all this pooling and sharing. Scotland’s population shrank by about 2% in that period.””

    Please show me where I said any such thing. I pointed out that Fran had stated the wrong population statistics for Scotland. Nothing more nothing less. I also pointed out that the rates of emigration from Scotland during the 19th and into the 20th Century were some of the highest in Europe. A prettyobvious indication I would have thought that Scotland in the Union was not doing well. I did not think anyone would be able to interpret that any other way. Clearly I was wrong.

  124. highseastim

    I’m with you McDuff,for once i’ll be voting against Nicola’s wishes, my postal vote is away to leave the EU, nothing to do with immigrants,it just seems to be a club for big business. All this claptrap about protecting workers rights, try asking 65,000 redundant offshore workers plus those that are left offshore with work rotas changed T’s & C’s reduced, and up to 35% wage cuts. Or maybe ask the workers at Grangemouth who got a take it or you’ll be closed down, or the steelworkers who are getting shafted, all good paying jobs who are joining the race to the bottom on the wages front, like the rest of the country!!I haven’t met any SNP/Labour/unknown voters who are voting to remain, but it’s easy for folk to say that.One thingn that has amused me is the amount of bigwigs/mp’s/MD’s who for so long have been telling us how great Great Britain is are now telling us that we’ll be “down the swanee” without the EU”.

  125. Scot Finlayson


    agree Brewer is BBC scum,

    anything to destroy Scotland`s confidence in itself,

    they want us frightened to take our own way in life.

    Djokovic,Nadal and Federer,are great players but with artificially enhanced power and stamina.

  126. Macart


    Uh huh. See under Tory power struggle, or rather the struggle for who controls the city and the south east. Who gets to decide on the British Bill of Rights. Who gets to decide on who profits and who doesn’t.

    The last bit would mainly be everyone north of the M25 ring road.

    Brexit may be using a lot of the YES campaign’s language and argument, but the resemblance ends there. This isn’t about democracy for these folks. Its about money and the ‘freedom’ for the select few to make more at other people’s expense.

    The only sensible conversation the people of Scotland will have on the issue of the EU is the one we have amongst ourselves after we’ve dealt with the EU directly as a sovereign state. Right now we’re being rail-roaded into a conversation as a third party participant.

    Whether we stay or eventually decide to leave, wouldn’t people rather be making that decision from the first person perspective? Dealing with the EU heid bummers directly rather than farming out the responsibility to another country to make the decision for us?

    In short, I’m not thrilled at being rushed into a decision because some over privileged Tories are having an in house spat about how to screw folks over for yet more centralized control and raw cash. A decision which deserves a damn site more consideration than who can out ‘fearmonger’ the best.

  127. Tam Jardine


    You’ve got me all wrong mate- I never said you said anything. You were right to correct a stat that was wildly wrong.

    You were talking about population changes is all- thought you might find the discussion I had with a yoon interesting is all.

  128. Legerwood

    Dave McEwan Hill and Brian McHugh

    Thank you.

    As Brian said the lack of growth in Scotland’s population is not in doubt but I just think the point is best served by using the correct, or as near correct figures as the data gathering of the time was capable of, to underline the point.

    I don’t think there can be many families in Scotland that has not had family members who have emigrated. In my own family the peak emigration time was the 1950s and now I am the only one left in Scotland.

  129. Breeks

    Good Wee chuckle about Stonehenge being moved from Wales; even though neither Wales nor England existed at the time.
    There’s a lot of guff spoken about Stonehenge and how it was built. If you’re interested, search on You Tube for Wally Wallington, “the man who can move anything”. He might not be right of course, but I’d take his version of events over the archaeological boffins any day.

  130. Tam Jardine


    If anything Scots should feel pissed off that such an important and significant symbol from our past (the fiery cross) has been distorted and bastardised by the KKK.

  131. Lochside

    Brexit: jumping into the high seas tied to Boris Johnson and Gove and with only the one lifebelt’ Remain: Eu bureacrats who despise and loathe us (see REF) and if England votes to stay…where is our Independence drive then?..pooled and shared and shafted.

    No, we’re caught between a load of cock and a hard place. We should be planning to bale from both…

    I will vote to stay with a view to leaving EU long term. But Nicola’stategy of speaking directly to the English puzzles me…if she swings them to stay…we’re back to square one, under the UK she hoping that they hate us so much that she will increase the anti-Sweatie Brexit vote?

    o/t Scotland in 2014 had 80,000 incoming migrants from RUK. In the same year we lost 60,000 indigenous Scots. At this rate we will be outvoted by RUK unless we get our Independence and establish Scottish citizenship..thereby preventing real ‘Ulsterisation’…not religious sectarianism. but attempts to dissolve Scotland by secession ( Orkney, Shetland, the Borders). If you doubt me, you didn’t watch this weeks’ ‘Question Time’ from Cardiff…hardly a Welsh voice and the Paid Cymru lady quited that one quarter of the Welsh population is now of RUK. origin.I’m in Edinburgh every other week..and I can hardly hear a Scottish voice in the City centre…not tourists but residents. No much wonder Jakey Rowling and her imperial ilk think they own us.

  132. Robert J. Sutherland

    highseastim @ 22:43 said:

    my postal vote is away to leave the EU

    Duh. “Act in haste, repent at leisure”, then!

    There’s a lot of people hurting right around the globe due to the downsides of globalised capital, but anyone here foolish enough to think that a bunch of Tory spivs selling their snake-oil Brexit panacea are on the side of the ordinary working stiff is going to get a very nasty shock indeed in very short order, if the spivs win!

    These people are the ultras of yoondom, and in no way whatever are they the friends of an independent Scotland.

  133. Petra

    @ Lochside says at 9:47 pm …. ”Pat Kane: pseudo intellectual arsehole with an inbuilt cringe: The KKK were not formed by emigrant Scots…..

    Thanks for responding to my post Lochside. I was annoyed when I read that and was hoping someone would respond on here with a correction. Additionally I was going to carry out some research of my own.

  134. Legerwood

    Tam Jardine @ 10.55

    OK. My bad – this time.

  135. Tam Jardine


    “A decision which deserves a damn site more consideration than who can out ‘fearmonger’ the best.”

    I agree and would add that the level of information pushed by the media and in particular by the BBC on the EU during the referendum and for many years has been risible.

    For example- the make up of the EU parliament, the names of the various parties and which groupings each political party who has MEPs belongs to. What their policies are and what direction are they in favour of.

    I don’t think I am alone in not understanding these things. For Westminster it has made sense for the UK subjects to be ignorant of the EU workings and the press and BBC has assisted. After all, we can’t have the masses thinking Westminster isn’t as all powerful as they once believed.

    Now we’re in the EU referendum and the powers that be want a remain vote for the sake of the economy and their cushy personal arrangements but folk have been poisoned against the EU and kept ignorant of the EU for decades! Now its too late and England appears to be voting leave come what may. The UK establishment is reaping what it has sown for years.

    As for this pretendy war and the two schoolchums, Dave and Boris falling out I just don’t buy it. Whoever wins, the tory party wins- they have a leader in both camps! The BBC is pushing that angle again and again but the whole thing stinks of a tory backroom carve up.

    I can imagine Dave, Boris, Michael and George quaffing and laughing whatever the result. Poor old Nigel has been well and truly screwed even with a strong Leave win.

  136. Orri

    The internal migration betwix the rUK and Scotland is one of the reasons why any strategy based on the balance of yes/no in oaps natuaraly changing over time might not working. Retiring to sunny Scotland might be more attractive when better health and welfare provisions sweeten the deal. Not only that but there’s no guarantee that yes and no supporters will die at the same rates. In addition any perceived deliberate abandoning of any attempt at persuading a given group based on wealth, age, education or any other categorization risk backfiring and turning it against independence.

  137. Brian Doonthetoon

    RE: “The Fiery Cross”.

    Here’s a badge we’ve done in the past few months.

    And for the background, see what’s at this link.

  138. Robert J. Sutherland

    Tam Jardine said:

    As for this pretendy war and the two schoolchums, Dave and Boris falling out I just don’t buy it. Whoever wins, the tory party wins- they have a leader in both camps!

    I agree with much of what you say, Tam, but not this part. Like the indyref, it’s the law of unintended consequences. There will be a lot of sickening pretendy bonhomie for the cameras afterwards, but it will all be wafer-thin, and the knives will already be buried in each others’ backs as they smile.

    If Brexit loses, there will be far more seriously disgruntled Tory backbench MPs than the current Tory majority in WM. A recipe for ongoing Unionist disarray.

    “Whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad.”

  139. Robert J. Sutherland

    Hmmm, Orri, maybe there should be a 16-year residency requirement to vote in indyref2 (if more interesting things don’t happen first!), exactly the same time span as the age of the youngest voter. As a fair & reasonable token of a long-term committment to the country.

    That would sort out of most of the carpet-baggers, would it not…?

  140. Iain More

    More bad poll news for the Stronger in Europe Campaign again today. Things are just going to get more vicious with the Eton and Oxford boys, lovely!

    Just another 17 days of deception, deceit and obfuscation to come from the BBC. It looks like the little Englanders at least aren’t listening to them. It could be them getting a REALITY CHECK on the 24th!

  141. Graham King

    Re in/out voting: since it seems clear there is a fair majority in Scotland in favour of Remain, but for UK overall there is some doubt yet which way it may go, surely at least some of us in Scotland seeking Indy would be better to vote for Exit? If we can help push the UK overall vote to be for Exit while the Scottish national vote is still sufficiently a majority for Remain, we gain our ‘material change in circumstances’ as basis to argue for Indy2.
    Would it be a pity if Scottish voters tipped the UK overall vote to be Remain, instead?

  142. Macart


    That’s pretty much my feeling on it too Tam. We’ve had generations to experience the workings of our own Westminster government and there are still folk out there who don’t understand how committees work, parliamentary legislation is formed, votes are proposed and the constitutional issues decided. Hell, most people still struggle with what powers are devolved to our own parliament and what’s reserved.

    How can the majority possibly decide on an issue without even basic knowledge of the machinery of EU decision making process to hand? Certainly no one from either camp has even taken the time to inform the electorate. Too hard I suppose (shrugs).

    Anyroads, I’m looking at this issue through the lens of our own constitutional first and foremost.

  143. Ian Brotherhood

    @Iain More –

    Hear hear.

    I have a dream, that one day, people in Scotland will be able to get up in the morning, make a cuppa, and turn on the radio without having to hear fuds like Boris Johnson.

  144. Ian Brotherhood

    ‘…human organs, ultimately inside a pig. How controversial is this?’ asks Gary Robertson, who has only just heard about Oinkgate.

  145. Cal


    I don’t know any people voting Leave who voted Yes in 2014. They all understand the opportunity that an English Leave vote combined with a Scottish Remain vote affords us. Your vote to Leave diminishes our case for another independence vote. It is sad that someone who wants to see an independent Scotland would do that.

  146. orri

    What’s best for Scotland as part of the UK and as an independent nation as far as the EU goes aren’t necessarily the same thing. There’s no guarantee that we will be independent in the foreseeable future.

    Expanding on what I said before, given the official Holyrood line from all parties is Remain there’s little doubt that public opinion in Scotland is firmly pro-EU as otherwise Davidson would be hedging her bets. In that light any suggestion of a tactical Leave vote might get the desired split between Scotland and the rUK with Scotland being “dragged” out of the EU. On the other hand it might also reduce the Remain majority by enough that it can simply be dismissed as a regional variation. Add to that that it might be why the result is a narrow Leave. Obviously the fact that some independence zealots are willing to vote Leave in order to achieve a scenario that might trigger indyref2 will be portrayed as a kind of “the lady protests too much” kind of thing.

    I’d rather risk all the fun to be had from Scotland swinging the result to Remain rather than a Leave and no indref2.

  147. Breeks

    The most wretchedly depressing thing about this joke of a referendum is that we had such a vital opportunity to set ourselves apart from this UK freak show back in 2014.

    Personally, I’m remarkably dispassionate about the UK embarking on its voluntary exile from Europe and leaving it to stew in its bitter and discordant Eton / BBC flavoured juices. The catastrophe is that Scotland will be dragged down with them.

    I’m not especially moved by such events prompting a second Independence Referendum. That might happen, I pray that it does, but nevertheless it seems a second class ticket to Independence which ignores the disappointing truth that Scotland patently requires external forces to overcome its anti-independence indifference and inertia. There is thus a suspicion the argument over sovereignty has only been won by a somewhat hollow and unfulfilling TKO, (technical knock-out) rather than a “back to the canvas” decisive step forward that a YES vote in 2014 would have delivered. I’ll take it of course, seize it with both hands, but I very much fear the recrimination that we “haven’t been doing this right”. Our YES majority should be a bell ringing landslide based on justice and logic alone, never mind the passion and stoicism of a determined Scottish people. Anything less means we haven’t been doing it right.

    Brexit might well provide a step ladder to help Scotland out the shit, but only by default. I cannot avoid the feeling that defeating the rancid media and Unionist propaganda here at home in our Livingrooms is the real challenge, that’s where it’s at, with victory there being a much more steady foundation to build from and move forward.

    On the up side, our formula for securing Independence has many of the right composite elements in place; our revolution has noble and honourable intentions, and is led by intelligence and some Ghandi-inspired lateral thinking albeit lacking some Ghandi-inspired charisma, and yet so far the formula doesn’t quite add up. Something is missing. Maybe the order isn’t quite correct.

    I can’t escape the feeling Brexit is somebody else’s debate which directly effects us by sheer bad luck. It certainly isn’t our Independence debate by proxy as some people propose, nor does it actually provide a mandate for Indyref2 no matter how much we might want it to. Be in no doubt whatsoever, on the morning of the Brexit result, in or out, the BBC propagandists will already be back in their anti-independence gun pits and ready for our next all out pedestrian assault…

  148. schrodingers cat

    YouGov poll

    Remain 41% (n/c)
    Leave 45% (+4)
    DK 14%

    fat lady not singing yet but the few % points from a scotland in vote may well affect the over all result. 🙂

    one thing that did emerge this weekend was the leave campaign are all now saying that they WONT get access to a free market.
    some had been punting the line that the uk would get access to the free market but all now accept that such access would require the uk to be part of an open eu area with no control over eu immigration. not something brexiters can accept, since stopping immigration is their raison d’etre

    much has been said about the economy during this euref,
    “of course we can survive” “uk worlds 5th biggest economy” ” 50% of our trade with the eu” ” no one really knows what will happen with the economy etc”….

    I had thought, if brexit, then we should move to indyref2 asap incase, apart from a small temporary GBP blip on the money market, nothing much in the economy changed. Any increase in support for yes, from the no voting pro eu voters in scotland, might be frittered away as the new status quo was accepted.

    However, we now know what will happen post brexit. the tariff barriers will be erected between the eu and the uk. 50% of uk trade with the eu will become 10% more expensive. (only 5% of the eu trade is with the UK) Indyref2 will be fought with the economic fallout as a backdrop.Regardless of how this will effect scotland directly, the effects of this in england will be reported uk wide. bingo.

    Oddly enough, scotland with 8% of the uk population has nothing like the diversity of business that england has, it is top loaded by a few huge industries, but as such, working out the effects of brexit here is a lot easier than in the rUK.

    not an export and a drop in the value of the GBP would make visiting scotland cheaper.

    it is an export, but not one that can be reproduced elsewhere. the loss of access by the eu to fishing grounds will be a boon to scottish fisheries, a 10% eu tariff wont affect this business, just make it more expensive for eu citizens

    a commodity whose value to our economy is dictated by global oil price, which is rising. and a 10% eu tax will have little effect.

    reassuringly expensive 🙂 and scotch can only be made in scotland. cheaper brands are already available in the eu but the producers dont want an additional 10% tax imposed. Diagio have already said if brexit, they will not support No in indyref2. 🙂

    Financial services
    Scottish companies already punch above their weight, but the City is implacably opposed to brexit. a 10% eu tax will hammer them. forget screwing brass plates to doors, they can change their trading location with a click of a button faster than you can say “offshore account” . oddley enough, a brexit followed by indy in scotland, may be londons loss but edinburghs gain.

    a 3rd of barley goes to make whisky and beer, the rest to feed cattle
    almost all wheat goes to make biscuits
    Oats, rapeseed, fruit make up the remainder of production
    100% of potato crop in scotland is for seed potatoes for the rest of the uk.

    Sheep. a 10% eu tax will damage them. but im not sure how much real value the duke of athol, the largest sheep farmer in europe, is to the scottish economy
    beef, 33% is used for stud for the ruk and 4% for eu stud. the rest is a top quality product sold in top class expensive restaurants worldwide. A 10% tax may cause a limited impact on this industry
    milk, these producers get shafted anyway, difficult to say how it will be effected
    chicken and egg producers, any loss in eu trade could be offset in an increase in uk trade created by a reciprocated tax imposed on eu goods in the uk

    Wolfson products in Apple iPod, iphone series, Sony’s PSP Microsoft Xbox Logitech Squeezebox Duet and the PalmOne Treo smartphone, Samsung Wave S8500, Samsung i9000 Galaxy S smartphones, LG phones including the LG-LB4400 music phone and the Android-powered LG Optimus GT540 smartphone.
    Wolfson Microelectronics produce the Audio Cards for Raspberry PI

    basically all the clever stuff that makes your smart phones work.

    other manufacturers in scotland
    Aggreko plc
    Albion Motors (axles for us market)
    Alexander Dennis (falkirk electric buses)
    BVT Surface Fleet – part of BAE Systems and VT Group
    Doosan Babcock
    Edesix ( body worn video cams)
    Kelvin Diesels
    Linn Products(top end hifi equipment)
    Pelamis Wave Power
    Pringle of Scotland
    Robert Noble
    Spirit AeroSystems (Europe) Ltd

    other major businesses
    AG Barr, Irn Bru
    Highland Spring
    Robert Wiseman Dairies
    Walkers Shortbread
    Edinburgh Woolen Mill

    there are other companies, eg tennants lager, who will be effected but since the bulk of their sales are in the uk, to a much lesser extent.

    its a long list but not as long or as complexed or varied as englands, where bmw moving their carplant to spain etc, would dwarf any effect in scotland.

  149. MJT

    @Lochside 11.19pm

    That’s quite a sobering post. And quite sad. I want, I’m sure we all want, Scotland to be a country that more and more Scots feel they can stay in, build a life here, prosper, even move back to.

    I’m also in Edinburgh quite a bit, and used to live there, and it’s true, in some parts of the city you’ll struggle to find a Scottish accent. But if you go to Niddrie, or Craig Millar, Pilton, Muirhouse, down Leith Walk, Gorgie, you’ll hear plenty local accents.

    I have no problem regarding folks coming to Scotland to find a better life. In Glasgow, I reckon it’s great to hear the different languages spoken in the street. When I lived in London I loved the multicultural aspect of it.

    But in the numbers game of winning a Scottish Independence Referendum I can’t imagine it’s a good thing for us to have so many Scots leave. I know it was ever thus. I don’t agree with the folks who say ‘be patient’ when it comes to waiting for the right time to go for it, with regards to an Indy Ref2. It’s a sentiment, or statement that requires further qualification. Be patient and do what whilst one is being patient? You can be patient whilst the chicken is in the oven or the kettle is boiling, cos the matter is at hand. But just being patient, and trusting that someone else has the matter in hand is suboptimal at best.

    I remember a Gold Medal winning rower being asked what’s next after he’d won his race. Start getting ready for the next Olympics, it’s a four year cycle. At the elite level (which is the level we need to operate on) in sport, it’s amazing the forensic detail that goes into preparing for victory, battle, competition.

    Defeats are scrutinized, opponents strategies and performances are scrutinzed. An entire process, from diet to sleeping patterns (each cyclist in the GB Cycling team has their own specially designed pillow) to training regimes is poured over and marginal gains (1% improvments) are saught.

    And that’s to win bike races, tennis or football matches. Gary Kasparov had a team of people researching moves and variations of chess games that were played over 100 years ago, and was said to have the largest database of moves, games and variations…just to win a friggin chess game.

    We’re trying to win a country. There’s so much more we can be doing, that we have to do, that the idea of being patient is quite irrelevant. And as you point out with those figures, it might be that the numbers are not on our side. The longer we leave it the harder it could get.

    Anyone familiar with Noam Chomsky’s work regarding the role of the media in manufacturing consent and setting the agenda will know how hard it is to affect consensus when facing a media that supports and promotes an opposing view.

    Prior to the Iraq war when WMDs were purported to be in Iraq the four main US New networks ABC, NBC, CBS and CSPAN had over 300 experts talking about the idea of going to war with Iraq. Only four experts said that the USA should not go to war with Iraq that there was not enough justification because there was no proof of WMDs. Over 300 experts said the USA should go to war. The point being the debate wasn’t should we or should we not go to war, but how will we go to war, do we bomb Iraq or put troops on the ground or both. And thus with a compliant media concent was manufactured. We know the rest.

    We have a compliant unionist media in Scotland. And whilst we in the Independence movement know the MSM is a propaganda tool to serve the interests of the status quo, we can’t deny that they set the agenda and that there’s huge swathes of the population who still get their fill of news from those sources. We can’t rely on the incompetence of our opponents, or that enough No voters will see through the lies and misinformation and see the light. There isn’t enough evidence, never mind proof, to show the expected value of that strategy will suffice. The clock might not be ticking in our favour. I dunno.

  150. gus1940

    Am I alone in becoming increasingle bored with the continuous ding dong of lies and scare stories excreted over us by the 2 competing Tory groups.

    My boredom with this contest is only surpassed by the boredom induced by the revamped Top Gear.

    If you though that last weeks’ opening edition was bad you aint seen nothing yet if you didn’t watch last night’s episode.

    I was so glad that I recorded it before viewing as that allowed me to alleviate my boredom by using the Fast Forward Button.

    Twisted Kenneth Roy is having another go today at throwing mud at The SNP’s Named Person Legislation by trying to blame it and the party for the tragic death of Liam Fee.

    I have been a regular reader of The Scottish Review for several years and for much of that time considered it to be a reasonably fair commenter on Scottish Affairs.

    However, it has now become a faithful supporter of The Guys In The Black Hats with Roy leading the charge supported by others such as Torrance.

    I’ll continue to read it for the same reason as the only paper I now buy is The Daily Mail namely to keep myself informed of all the lies and scare stories the bastards publish.

    It can’t be long before Roy joins the other unionists
    who masquerade as political pundits – Gardham, Massie, Torrance, Clegg et al as regulars wheeled out to mouth their propaganda on the late night Scottish Political

  151. Gary45%

    Expect the Tories to take credit for “sticking organs inside pigs”
    Ask Dave.

  152. Andy B

    Why would we get independence from Westminster only to give it up to the undemocratic EU superstate? The same monster that simply ignores your country’s vote if it dares to disagree or simply demands you vote again if you vote the “wrong” way. A small country like Scotland would simply be stomped down and used and abused like the rest if it dared to do anything that wasn’t in line with the EU’s demands.

    What is going on now with the anti Brexit campaign makes the dodgy stuff against the Yes campaign look like small potatoes, yet so many hypocrites turn a blind eye to it as they believe it suits them for the moment. We are seeing Project Fear ramped up to massive levels from Westminster and the EU pockets and mouths.

    Rule by the unlected commission is not a good future for Scotland, every bit as bad and possibly worse than rule by Westminster. If Westminster had simply forced Scotland to revote again after a Yes vote there would have been literal riots, with many here probably sympathising with such a reaction, so why run to the bosom of the EU which has shown itself to be willing to employ such behaviour whenever it suits it? This is no small issue to be easily ignored, this is rotten foundations and core.

  153. Cal

    Andy B @1.49,

    You’ve got to do it in the correct order. Remain first then Yes to independence in Indyref2 and THEN Leave in the subsequent Scottish EU referendum. It must be our decision and no one else’s.

    The regime in Westminster is way more visious than anything that Brussels could ever muster. If you think being stuck all alone on this island with the nasty bunch in London is going to turn out ok then you are seriously naive. You don’t get to run the largest empire the world has ever known by being nice to people. Those guys in London could buy and sell the Brussels lot and they wouldn’t even know it. Didn’t an Italian expert on the mafia say last week that the UK is the most corrupt country in the world?

    What you have to understand is that Westminster cannot to changed. It is a giant tanker heading for the rocks and there’s no way it can be turned around in time.

    Seriously, stop watching/listening to/reading the SHIT that comes from the UK media. It’s utterly toxic and would corrupt the mind of even the most level headed person.

    The polls are moving in the right direction in England. If you’re in Scotland, you need to hold your nerve (and your nose!) and vote Remain. We’re almost there.

  154. robertknight

    This gives the measure of Michael Gove, and the rest of his Brexiteer cronies who were also cheerleaders for Bitter th’Gither

    Michael Gove says Scottish independence would invigorate Vladimir Putin (The Telegraph: )

    David Cameron says British exit from EU would please Putin (CNN: )

    Michael Gove today clobbered the Prime Minister for using “bogeymen” like Vladimir Putin to scare voters into staying in the EU (The Sun: )

    Somebody care to remind me what the definition of a Hypocrite is? Second thoughts, no need.

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