Wings Over Scotland

He won’t. There’s too many of him.

Hopefully Unionist jam on the wall!

Nice Chris.

Slightly O/T but a discussion point I hope.

1st Act of Scot Parly after a YES vote – dissolve treaty of union. England can then only take itself, wales and NI out of EU.

EU then has to deal with us as a continuing member and come up with a deal for us.

Either walk away from our so called UK debt and shared assets or negotiate.

A striking image. The Independence ministers and supporters are very courageous in facing down the Francoists.
Of course, Catalonia has dropped below the radar in the British Press, preoccupied as they are with BREXIT.
A tense week ahead for the Catalan people.

Correction! R Scotland discussing Catalonia just now.

Tops again Chris.

May offers the EU £18b for what is basically a time extension of leaving.That is public money of course.
It would now be hard, and harder as it goes on, to calculate just how much this Tory mess has REALLY cost the country. Of course Scotland will have to pay it’s share, despite voting to stay in.

We could not make it up, but they certainly will.

Nice bull’s arse you have there Chris, must have been inspired by something 😉

The brexit bill was stated to be anything from £60 BN to £120 BN.

Yesterday’s £20 BN per year over two years (£49 BN in total) was payment for a transitional period, mot related to brexit bill above.

So the position is the uk willl pay a grand total between £100 BN and £160 BN to the EU without having the ability or right to influence existing or future trade to I’m igration policies.

Beggars the questions, what will the final cost be, for how long, where’s the NHS money and at what personal cost to individual people due to uncertainty?

Good luck this week to people of Catalonia, perhaps an exemplar for Scotland, if your colonial master does not permit something, push with all your will to get it.

The SNP saying it would not permit brexit then discussing brexit confuses the public, just say no and fight our cause. Working with Welsh labour is a waste of time, the Welsh voted to leave and labour support the leave policy. In some respects, Welsh labour are being more brave and radical all than the SNP.

Tories are coming part in Scotland when the nature of the candidates are exposed, labour are about to elect a leader with either no history or a dodgy history, SNP have a mandate, be bold, use it!

‘The UK was never truly at home in Europe’ says PM May
‘Scotland was never truly at home in the UK’
says me!
The EU simply wants you to make up your mind. You do protest over much, but pray be not too long in your going Madame!
Long live Europe, with an independent Catalunya and Alba in it!

Great cartoon, Chris. Scotland will be watching.

The excellent Marina Hyde in Graun

Mays speech sounds magic….if you’re drinking Bacardi. Scathing.

link to archive.is

Great toon Chris. Yes, a brick wall. How can the Spanish authorities believe their actions help their anti Indy case?

Calum McKay says:

The brexit bill was stated to be anything from £60 BN to £120 BN. …. Yesterday’s £20 BN per year over two years was payment for a transitional period, not related to brexit bill

Logic and facts should dictate that, yes.

However, I suspect May’s super generous offer is intended to be in lieu of the divorce Brexit bill!

If so, it definitely isn’t a serious offer. Also, nothing on Ireland and a few woolly words on citizens’ rights. Intended for UK audience to make her sound reasonable.

I think it’s a certainty there will be blood on the streets. A huge army of riot police will make sure of that.

I fear for the Observer Mission and wish them luck and a safe return.

The tone of BBC coverage will be ‘interesting’.

Folly of the FoI not asking the right question? SNP bad whatever.

Is Catalan democracy plagued by a Spanish version of the BBC in Scotland, relentlessly monstering everything around it?

If they do vote Yes, its going to be interesting just how bad that bull behaves in Catalonia and then how the bull in a china shop is then reported here in the BBC Scotland region.

If that bull does go china shop berserk, BBC Scotland gimps will Project Fear the life out of its sucka Scots audience with the mayhem?

See what happens when you dare to shake off your imperial masters vile seps, BBC style?

These and other queries on BBC reportage in Spain and Scotland right now have pretty obvious answers. Never underestimate tory UK media’s willingness to embrace fear, all led and coordinated by the BBC.

Catalonia. 2.3Million. Out of a 5.5million electorate. 40% turnout? – 80% ? out of those who voted. Claimed as affirmation. 7.5million pop. Some folk are being left out of the vote or off the register? Catalonians residents elsewhere can register to vote. Parties against Catalonia Independence told supporters to boycott the vote. D’Hondt system. Clear as mud. The numbers do not add up. In subsequent Election turnout was 75%? Independence Parties 1.6million. Out of 4.1million who voted. 18 year old voters. Pop 7.5 million. 5.5million electorate of register to vote?

Where are the missing or non registered voters?

O/T
Following the striking off as a teacher of a Tory councillor for abusive comments about the FM this below from the BBC website

“Michael Jamieson appeared from custody at Perth Sheriff Court, with the case heard in private.
It is alleged that he had images of child abuse at his home in Perth between November 2015 and March 2016.
Mr Jamieson, who was elected in May as part of the Conservative-led Perth and Kinross Council, made no plea or declaration.”

The Tory Party in Scotland is being exposed for what it is. A collection of racist, bigotted clowns built in the image of its Scottish leader.

I think the SNP would rather we all ignore the Catalonia indyref situation.

As it just makes us compare the courage, defiance in the face of jackboot tactics and determination of the Catalonian independists with the SNP Scot Govt.

I almost said the SNP’s independence campaign but, of course, there isn’t one. The FM will think about it in another year.

In the meantime, the SNP are getting on with administering Westminster devolution and Westminster austerity on behalf of the UK Govt.

The big, brave SNP. No compromises when it comes to snooping on decent, ordinary people with the named person scheme or chopping tails off puppies, but when it comes to fighting for Scotland’s freedom and her sovereign and democratic rights, the SNP aren’t bullfighters, but spineless bullsh****s.

Free by ’23? I wish.

SNP Scot Govt gone in ’21.

I would vote for that.

BREXIT – BREWING UP SOME TRADITIONAL BRITISH TREACHERY

link to theguardian.com

“It’s good to be here in Florence,” Theresa May began. She didn’t know quite why she’d come to Florence, though she’d heard it was nice at this time of year. She could only assume that all the meeting rooms in London must have been fully booked.
“The eyes of the world are upon us,” she continued. Except they weren’t. Almost everybody else in the room was from the British media. It was possible that Michel Barnier was watching it on TV somewhere, but for everyone else it was a non event. Presumably because they had been tipped off about the contents of the speech in advance. Or rather the lack of them.”

Yes, excellent Chris.

Confronted by intelligence in opposition, the stupid man in power will invariably resort to force, only to later discover that ‘to change a man against his will, he’ll be of the same opinion still.’

Spain today, Westminster tomorrow.

Imagine a parallel non tory BBC universe where tory peados are not quietly brushed under the red and blue tory UKOK carpet?

If Catalan does go indy, will they then have to contend with a Brownite SLabour britnat style gov, like Scotland did in the 90’s, where assorted SLabour nutters blew so much money on Holyrood or that freakin tram, all to make Scottish government look truly awful and pointless?

Aberdeen’s council is a Britnat SLab/tory nightmare and catastrophe, hundreds of billions pissed away on nothing by yoon councilors, all rather wealthy now, all of it making Scottish democracy look like a lunatic asylum of Scots political pointlessness? surely not, rule Britannia britnat style. Take a big bow, Sir Wullie Young, UKOK catastrofuck of the millenium(local division), who also banned the Saltire from any ACC premises.

Is there Catalan Wullie Young’s waiting, waiting to blow hundreds of billions of euros, on fcuk all.

Ooopps.! Put it on the wrong thread first…. Silly me.
——————

“I think the EU27 are astonished with the UK”
————————
May’s speech was quite widely reported on the news here (DE)
but more with a sense of not really knowing why May traveled to Florence to deliver a somewhat strange mix of history and we’re leaving but we want to stay longer if you don’t mind.
Here’s 20 billion to cover the costs…!?

Someone else mentioned the UK decending down to the level of Mexico and Cameroon.

10 days of waiting and then this, oh dear.

“So cam o ye at hame wi freedom
Never heed whit the hoodies cry fur doom.”

@ colin alexander

I kind of understand the sentiment about the SNP. But I dont agree.

However ill say this – ive spent a number of years in cataluna and their desire for independence makes us Scots look like the pampered, whining, thick little benefit dependent gimps to the Westminster government that we are.

When the catalans hold a rally for independence you can get 10’s of thousands involved. Most of the town mayors of Cataluna actually marched themselves (500+ of them) for it.

Aye, in comparison im actually ashamed to be Scottish. The only country to be given a bloodless vote for its freedom and future and the answer – ‘naw, we are happy with a right big red, blue and white dick in our arses. They even pwomised, all 3 of them, that theyd be nice to us.’

Fking despicable.

The usually verbose privileged yoon Scottish leftards that decry Scotland`s bid for freedom from the Westminster State stating “Better Together”, are keeping quiet,

do they hypocritically support Catalonia in seeking Independence from the Spanish State,

or do they support the Spanish State, stating “Better Together”.

This was a tweet from Julian Assange,

`How vile is the sinecure left? Keen to virtue-cite to Orwell’s “Homage to Catalonia” but abandons the living Catalonia in their hour of need`.

sinecure left = Scottish leftard.

These are exciting times, vibrant times for Scotland as we discover our shared history, shared challenges and shared future together in our journey towards independence. Scotland’s Yes movement is indomitable- it has grit, the key to success –passion, resilience and above all hope.

The three most important letters to Scotland are Y.E.S – ditto Catalonia.

Formulaic speeches are improved when they are contextualised with meaningful situations.

See link from Nana this am @Dave McEwan Hill @10.13 am

Perth Tory councillor appears in court after allegedly being caught with stash of child abuse images:

link to archive.is

We’ve never been happy in Europe says Mrs May

Have you noticed the amount of people who have never been happy can’t speak a word of any foreign language, never intend to learn, complain about them not speaking English and can’t eat anything unless there’s a picture with chips on it

Oh, and the ones who live there call themselves ex pats, that’s the British word for immigrant and most of them can barely order a coffee even in English without complaining about mushrooms being missing from their full English breakfast priced at an extortionate 2Euros50

It’s too hot, it’s too cold at night, Spain would be great if it wasn’t for the Spanish
Every day for a dozen years I heard this crap

Maybe Mrs May’s right, bring back all the English moaners after Brexit and the rest of us will get on fine with our foreign friends

Here’s to Catalonia’s political ambitions, Chris, only a few voluble ex-pats living in Barcelona are opponents. You know the sort of thing, one proud Brit against millions of Catalonians, and he thinks he is the righteous one. Johnny Foreigner, know thy place.

Your weekend reading

11,000 hits worldwide in two days:
Rowling v Scotland: link to wp.me
Ghost Opponents: link to wp.me

Unfortunately @Robert Graham says at 12:05 pm

“Time for the parliament to suspend or remove MSPs who knowingly Lie in Parliament,either in their questions or their answers.”

This would rely on a Non-Partisan Presiding Officer who upheld the principle of Democratic Truth and held some respect for his office.

We currently have a British Labour Party in Scotland BritNat Presiding Officer.

A cretin who consistently and regularly ignores outright BritNat lies and unparliamentarily behaviour without censure or recourse.

Allowing falsehoods about English NHS figures for example to be recorded in parliamentary record of debate despite this being pointed out to him at the time, which he brushed off (thereby allowing a false narrative of EssEnnPeeBaad to be maintained for posterity in our version of Hansard).

Our current BritNat Presiding Officer brings his office into disrepute in my opinion and does so with apparent impunity.

Unless a Bill is Passed (which contains all the checks and balances required) which states:

“This parliament has the power to suspend or remove MSPs who knowingly lie to Parliament, whether in their questions or their answers with the intention to mislead this Parliament, it’s elected representatives or its electorate”.

Now surely such a Bill should pass with 100% of the vote.

Surely no MSP would vote that Lying to Parliament, it’s elected representatives or its electorate was OK??

@Robert Graham

re tail docking. Robert says: “They are acting on the advice of people in the veterinary profession”.

23 June 2017 :

“BVA ( British Veterinary Association) has said its appalled at the reintroduction of tail docking in Scotland,”

link to bva.co.uk

——————————————

Re the Scot Govt Named Person scheme:

The Supreme Court said they conlude:

“(b) are incompatible with the rights of children, young persons
and parents under article 8 of the ECHR because they are not “in accordance with the law” as that article requires, (c) may in practice result in a disproportionate interference with the article 8 rights of many children, young persons and their
parents, through the sharing of private information, and (d) are not incompatible with EU law in any way which goes beyond their incompatibility with article 8 of
the ECHR.”

In short, The named person scheme legislation as it was proposed would have breached people’s Article 8 legal rights to a private and family life.

( and lets not pretend that these ECHR article 8 rights have not been transposed into uk legislation via the Data Protection Act and HRA that includes Scotland).

link to ico.org.uk

https:www.supremecourt.uk/cases/docs/uksc-2015-0216-judgment.pdf

—————————————————–

“Lawyers’ concerns over attempts to fix named person plans”

link to bbc.co.uk

@Robert Graham “illegal, unlawful, not in accordance with the law”

Illegal is usually when someone has acted with “moral turpitude”, eg committed a criminal act.

I’ll take your word for it that Ruth D said illegal. The Supreme Court ruling did not say illegal. Neither do I.

“not “in accordance with the law” ” is what the SC ruled. And that was the previous version of the proposed legislation, not the current version.

It remains to be seen if there will be further legal action against the amended version of the Named Person Scheme.

Back to the Catalonia indyref now, thanks.

In bull-fighting, almost without exception, it is the matador that wins, not the bull… making the brick wall even more relevant in the cartoon.
————————

Off-topic: The level of trolling has gone up, they are all “oh-so-concerned” about the actions of our Scottish Government. When you see a troll’s name, I recommend that you scroll on by… and NEVER reply. Simple, but effective.

Pooper Cooper in the Daily Hail continues with his Scottish based rant against the SNP and the NHS.

He seems to know everything about both topics but for some reason he doesn’t seem to be able to gain access to all the information that proves beyond doubt that the SNP’s NHS
is by far the best performing anywhere in the UK, including of course his Tory paymaster’s shambles known as NHS England.

If things were a fraction as bad as he would have you believe, he is failing his children, wife and parents by not relocating them down South to Toryland.

Why don’t you move Mr Cooper?

For new Wingers / lurkers.

Man at C&A is a British Nationalist troll whose job is to disrupt discussion on WoS. Most normally ignore his pish.

Me, on the other hand, I’s like to dedicate this wee tune to him (and his wee BritNat pals):

link to youtube.com

Thanks, crazycat, archiving is important and I acknowledge that. On this occasion I simply forgot to do it. No excuses.

@Proud Cybernat and Jockanese Wind Talker

Proud Cybernat, said:

“Man at C&A is a British Nationalist troll whose job is to disrupt discussion on WoS. Most normally ignore his pish.”

Do you not read what Stu says? He’s told you to stop the troll pish-talk.

It just makes you look like you are paranoid and discredits Stu’s sensible arguments and good work on WoS.

——————————————-

I did what Stu does, made my point and used evidence to support it to prove Robert Graham’s assertions were wrong, but I still agree with his support for Scottish independence, so am not out to rubbish him / her as a person or independist.

I just think his blind faith in the SNP is a bad mistake.
____________________________________________________________________

It’s because I support independence for Scotland that I am so critical of the SNP.

They now see their main purpose as administrators of WM devolution, the so-called Scottish Government.

I believe the SNP’s main job is supposed to be campaigning for independence for Scotland. They haven’t done that for three years, so I won’t support them any longer and will continue to criticise them until they again come out fighting for independence and Scottish sovereignty to be respected ( by the UK Govt and EU).

If Stu wants to kick me off his site for doing stating my views, that’s up to him, but I’m not a unionist troll, I’m pro-Scottish independence.

On the other hand, R Scotland did broadcast a lengthy item about the Catalonia referendum, including a contribution from Professor Willy Maley whose father fought in the International Brigades.
Discussion starts at 6 mins 10 secs and Prof Mayley at 25 mins 20 secs.
Looks at the ambivalence of the Left in Scotland today because of the Scottish Independence movement.

For those of you who still use iPlayer:
link to bbc.co.uk

Prof Maley of Glasgow University:
link to gla.ac.uk

Thanks @Capella says at 1:33 pm

The Propaganda by omission from MSM,

The insidious and pernicious drip, drip, drip of EssEnnPeeBaad Lies and Propaganda – the attacks on SNHS, Police Scotland, Scottish Fire & Rescue, Scots Gov serve the same purpose as Banner Headlines in the BritNat Dread Tree Scrolls like the Daily Heil.

It is to plant a subliminal message (and not just to those who only get their news from TV or the paper) and to hammer it home EVERY DAY:

That message is Scotland is shite because of the EssEnnPee and their constant inability to “do the day job” ‘cos of their obsession with Independence and anyway we are better as part of the UK.

This is the thought they want to trigger when the Electorate go to the ballot box.

Sow a seed of doubt about the capability of our Democratically elected party of Government

Every X against a BritNat Candidate is worth these lies to them.

The Union at any cost.

The Establishment include the truth as a cost worth paying.

Just remember Tony Bliar (no typo), The ‘Dodgy Dossier’ and The Iraq War.

Aye but in regards Catalonia @Capella says at 1:57 pm

“On the other hand, R Scotland did broadcast a lengthy item about the Catalonia referendum”.

I suspect the arrest of 15 Catalan Government Officials or “Separatist Officials” as the BBC in Scotland are describing them could not be blacked out and they finally had to report what was happening.

See:

link to indyref2.scot

It’s difficult to draw any other conclusion than the obvious when a cartoon about Catalunya results, in just a few comments down the line, bizzare and O/T references to tail-docking and the named person scheme.

indyref2.scot/newswatch-scotland-michelle-thomson

Well worth a watch.

@ manandboy – thx for the video link. I thought it was very good, punchy clear message backed up by evidence, good visuals, and clear relevance to Scotland and media bias.

It was also a good length at 5 mins.

My only criticism is the rather muddy sound of the presenter’s voice. Sound is always a problem in creating good video. Whether it is poor microphone equipment or the presenter’s diction, sound quality does need attention.

Jackie Bird does enunciate like a pro!

indyref2.scot/newswatch-scotland-michelle-thomson

Nevertheless, as an EU citizen, I want to retain my EU citizenship, not have it forcibly taken away from me by the votes of people in England and Wales and a UK Tory Govt I didn’t vote for.

Ok I’ll bite. You and youre bestie Rock never have anything remotely positive to say about anything at all, WoS btl wise Colin A.

But why do you want to retain your EU citizenship?

Also, its against EU constitution to get involved in member state internal affairs Colin A. Surprised you dont know that but you do now.

Its primarily why there was no EU Brexit campaigning done in any shape or form during the Brexit ref, let alone an EU attempt to try and block one.

Rather a stark difference between 2014 UKOK Project Fear, BBC Scotland fear and lie mongering etc, eh Colin A.

You’re probably more than familiar with all of the above but trolls gotsta troll Colin A.

@Colin Alexander
The messianic strain in Scottish nationalism, the one that seems unable to brook alternative opinions, will ultimately damage the cause. It is loud, often abusive and in the main unable to offer a reasoned response. It displays an intolerance that might well give many cause to wonder about the species of supporter the SNP attracts. The SNP isn’t the independence movement it is merely an element of it. A hubristic attitude does infect the National party, probably a historic, foundational malaise, which desires to extinguish anything but the current orthodoxy. The last election has damaged morale and the stasis in support for independence has not helped either.
The National party in government can appear, given its status as a subordinate administration, as an agent of the central power. The National party as the supposed driver of independence should counterbalance that impression with a firm, oft expressed resolve to attain national sovereignty. The toying some years ago with so-called devomax sent out signals that the party of independence was backing down. The unionists just loved that.
Fluffy Cloud cuckooland is where some nationalists desperately clutching at straws from the latest polls appear at ease. For those who genuinely want Scottish independence and the quicker the better that stuff is as some post on here ‘pish’.

@Heedtracker

I want to retain my EU citizenship because I feel the EU gave me more rights and protections than I would have from the UK Govt.

Part of the reason I voted Remain was because, EU law has supremacy over UK legislation ( and Scottish legislation) where they conflict. The EU has strengthened human rights and workers rights more than the UK Govt ( or Scot Govt) has.

Which is why many Tories are so pro-Brexit: they want ALL the power to do what they want in Scotland and to the people of Scotland. They don’t want the EU saying it’s not compatible with EU law or a breach of their legal rights under the EU.

And of course the UK Govt would prefer to be out of the ECHR.

_____________________________________________________________

If the UK do indeed agree a Single Market transition deal with the EU up to 2021, how does that go with Brexit and indyref2?

Is that the FM’s concession of “no Indyref for Single Market membership” settled till 2021, so the FM has negotiated away Scotland’s mandate for indyref2 before the next Scottish election?

Should we wait till Autumn 2018 to get any answer?

“The last election has damaged morale …”

LOL.

BBC Essex … ” The English Defence League march through Chelmsford has been called off after two people turned up. “ … their members have presumable now joined the Conservative and Unionist Party, like other far right nutters throughout this island.

People in England have a voting choice … they can option for any one of the four colours of Tory.

As The Rev has shown, what Blair achieved was to turn millions of voters away from politics because they felt no one was there to speak for them. Truth is, many finally got their own back by voting Leave.

@Abulhaq

Agreed.

If the UK Govt agree to remain in the Single Market till 2021 and the SNP were offering a deal of no indyref if Scotland stays in the Single Market?

Seems the UK Govt can say, you got your deal, no indyref till after 2021.

Anyone prepared to address this?

Now now @Proud Cybernat says at 3:21 pm

It is true that

“The last election has damaged morale …”

But it was the BritNat Parties morale that was damaged.

😉

ATTACK
link to imgur.com

ATTACK
link to imgur.com

ATTACK
link to imgur.com

Kind of reminds me of this

This old man, he bored one,
He bored knick-knack on my thumb.
With a knick-knack, boring whack,
Give a dog a tail,
This old bore came boring home.

This old man, he bored two,
He bored knick-knack on my shoe.
With a knick-knack, boring whack,
Give a child a name,
This old bore came boring home.

@Michael McCabe

I’m fine thanks. How are you? Hope your day is going well.

I look forward to your comment on the cartoon. Some may say, what’s Catalonia got to do with us in Scotland?

Human Rights, Democracy and the right to Self-determination. That’s what. They are being trashed in Catalonia, I’m sure the UK Govt are observing to see how much the Spanish Govt can get away with before any outcry.

We must speak up for others’ democratic rights, if we want them to defend ours, when ours are under attack too.

Dr Jim @ 12.03. I live in Extremadura, Spain. I voted Remain. I am a YES and a SNP supporter, although I am unable to vote in any Scottish elections/referendum. I live 100s of miles from any of the costas. There is VERY little English spoken here and the breakfasts are wholly Spanish (tostadas with Iberian jamon, cheeses etc). The Spanish here are lovely people, very kind and welcoming, and we have many Spanish friends. We do not call ourselves expats, we are Europeans

“The conclusions to be drawn are that the Tories are playing a game with the EU, and that the proposed transitional timescale is part of a plot by Westminster to torpedoe the second Independence Referendum.”

Precisely, Manandboy. The British Nationalist Establishment are simply playing for time, desperately trying to string out a final Brexit outcome (i.e. the final, final Brexit deal when the UK and Scotland will finally, finally know what is to become of our EU citizenship and our terms of conduct with the EU) until after the Scottish Election in 2021 which they hope their relentless SNP BAD BAD BAD will allow them to win.

Upon winning they will change the goalposts again at Holyrood to effectively ensure that another IndyRef will be virtually impossible to be voted through the chamber (65% rule or something).

Problem is though – the BNPs (British Nationalist parties) simply WON’T WIN in 2021. I predict another SNP majority in that scenario (if we haven’t already voted for Indy in 2019 which I suspect is what will happen, so 2021 is a moot point). You heard it here first.

The latest fudge by May has only served to muddy the future even more than it already was and I suspect many businesses will not like that at all. Already the financial community believes the UK won’t get any EU deal, its rating sinking now to AA2.

I think th time for Scotland’s FM calling IR2 might be closer than some think.

Independence Day itself
I’m starting to wonder about this. Salmond’s idea was an 18 month period after a YES with a transitional period after. But with the benefits system targetted for 2021, and Revenue Scotland in existence, those are two of the main ministries already being put in place. Central Bank is a dawdle, just building up reserves takes some time.

Sturgeon is very different from Salmond, so it wouldn’t surprise me if, say Indy Ref 2 was on Thusday 14th March 2019, Independence is declared at noon on Friday 15th March 2019, giving 2 weeks for the EU27 to agree a hold on Scotland’s leaving with the rUK.

Why would they do this? Because Article 50 is given in accordance with the member states’ constitution, Scotland would not be a part of the UK, so to make the Brexit terms valid in time for the rUK’s Brexit on 29th March 2019, Scotland would have to be specifically excluded from the Brexit terms, or the Article 50 would not be totally legal, and hence neither would the rUK’s Brexit.

There’s then a 2 year transitional period to more fully implement Indy, matching the rUK’s transitional period oout of the EU, and it also gives plenty of time to negotiate EU terms of accession for Scotland, and put the whole issue to the Scottish public in a referendum – accept the EU or not. Formal accession then on 29th March 2021, in time for the new EU budget pretty well.

I recommend this solution to the house!

For the benefit of the trolls, in particular.

SNP have condemned what is going on in Catalonia to deny democracy. No matter how folk like to twist that ‘ they are different to Scotland, a nation’ they are an autonomous region, with their own elected politicians, and they have a gripe with the Spanish gov’t.

That is not being addressed, nada. The response has been force, with water cannons now moving into position.

All the prominent SNP on Twitter are tweeting up to date info. On Thursday evening in Glasgow, George Kerevan, Sandra White and Christine McKelvie were at an event in Glasgow City chambers to speak with Catalan activist Liz Castro, and reps of Catalan gov’t. It was well attended.

If folk are angry, it should be directed at Labour, Corbyn has been silent, ffs.

@ Math Campbell-Sturgess, 8:33am

Hi Math, shared your appeal around FB. Hope you get what you need. Good luck.

@Tatu3

Then you know exactly the people I’m talking about
I lived on the Costa Blanca

Just a note to say Mrs May doesn’t speak for me when she said “We never felt at home in the EU”, her party doesn’t speak for me either.There again,it seems that she doesn’t seem to speak for all of her party.

@Breeks
Would my possibility of Indy Ref 2 on 14th March 2019 and Independence Day on 15th March 2019 make you happy?

@EFTA
If the Scottish Government as a “neutral” explored the EFTA / EEA option, and a group emerged after Indy Day to campaign for EFTA as opposed to the EU, with an STV form multi-option EU/EFTA/neither referendum with terms cost and conditions, in say late 2020, would that make you happy?

I’d be so happey anyway 🙂

yesindyref2 @ 17:47,

An indyref2 win before March.2019 changes everything. As gala says (and indeed as we always knew) the Scottish Government is completely unfettered the very day after.

In particular, from then on, the EU have to treat us as a sovereign entity, not as a colonial possession with an absentee governor sent away to South America to get him out of the way.

It is patently clear that there is nothing the UKGov would like better than to spend all its attention on the EU27, then once that has been sorted out (somehow), to turn their beady eye back on us again. The conclusion is obvious.

If May gets her 2-year extension, we have our “holding pen” right there. That should be plenty time to get a deal with the EU, since that is simplicity itself compared to the rUK’s ripping itself out.

A binary referendum is bad enough, with all the undercurrents that are inevitably at play. A multi-option referendum is a total dog’s breakfast. Debate would be like a three- or four- person boxing match. =sigh= Everyone gets totally confused, and nothing gets resolved.

The only post-indy referendum I can see any need for is a dead simple proposition: do we as an independent country wish to continue in the EU under the agreed terms (which will be attractive) or copy England and go to hell in a handbasket?

And which outcome would people valuing financial stability and security prefer, do you think…?

@RJS
Indeed. But in a 3 option referendum EU/EFTA+EEA/neither to follow the Indy ref 12-20 months later, I’d see it as probably the neither option being eliminated first, with votes then being reapportioned, and probably the EU option winning. But if the EFTA one did win, that would be the sovereign will of the Scottish People expressed as an update to the 2016 EU Ref. I think it does need to be clarified.

It also has the distinct advantage that all YESsers regardless of dislike of the EU could vote YES to the Indy Ref, and so could all Remain voters for whom that would be the important factor, regardless of their view on Indy.

It’s a win-win for YES, and resolves “divisions” 🙂

@RJS

We are still ‘out’ of the EU in March, 2019, that’s the effect of A50, and we lose citizenship on that date.

The 2 year transition as proposed by May is only to have access to the single market and customs union, because we have made zero preparation. Ireland already stating May has made no references to the Irish Border, so they will withhold their agreement until they are happy.

Rumour has it that the civil servants in Davis’s Brexit dept are now writing arse covering memos warning of disaster, in case of the inevitable Chilcot type Enquiry into this fiasco.

Blair Paterson @ 18:16,

I caught the headlines of the BritNat papers today as I went for The National. They’ve forgotten to smear the SNP for once, instead they’re not at all pleased with May.

Everybody can observe with undivided attention the wheels coming off the Brexitomobile, so why provide them with any unhelpful distraction right now?

Lots of us are just as restless as you, so please don’t imagine that you are somehow special in that regard. All the more important then to keep a cool head and an eye on the ball. As K1 reminds us upthread, don’t interrupt your opponent while she is busy making mistakes.

(And be very wary of CA. His underlying motives may be very different from yours.)

i dont think we can separate indyref2 from automatic membership of efta

leaving the single market for even a short while will be an economic disaster for the uk. this would be the case for an indy scotland. we wouldnt have time to wait to have the euref2

also, with polls showing 65% in favour of eu membership, it stands to reason they support being in the single market.
conversly, while 35% oppose eu membership, it doesnt follow that these 35% oppose being in the single market.
true support for single market access could be as high as 80%.

also, if the uk does crash out of the single market, the real effects will manifest themselves and the population will see for themselves how bad an idea this is.

there may be some uncertainly about which tactic, which method we go about re joining the eu, but i think that there is overwhelming support for being in the single market.

single market access is our trump card in indyref2. any tactic which delays getting back into the single market post a yes vote, makes no sense

@cat
But the timetable I outlined of Scotland being Indy BEFORE the UK formally Brexits, still leaves Scotland in the EU along with the rUK until March 29th 2021, bar voting rights, but with single market and customs union in place. So Scotland doesn’t crash out of the EU before an EU/EFTA referendum in say 2020. And that should leave plenty of time for the EU27, if they want, to keep Scotland in the single market and customs union on a similar transition base the UK would presumably have for its 2 years from 2019 to 2021.

All Barnier would have to do is cross out UK in the transition agreement, put in Scotland, cross out 2021 as the end date, and insert say 2025 if neccessary for full accession and the 35 chapters of the acquis to be formally filled out and approved.

And / Or the SG negotiates with EFTA, and its route to the EEA, and does similar work.

All the EU “holding pen” work would already have been done – for the UK.

The 2 year UK transition period is a game-changer for iScotland, it makes life much easier, and a precendent already in place to cut and paste and amend suitably. It’s another reason in itself for the SG to have gone quiet about Indy meantime.

Guardian reader,

“Ok I’ll bite. You and youre bestie Rock never have anything remotely positive to say about anything at all, WoS btl wise Colin A.”

Couldn’t you find anything in the Guardian to moan about today?

c.i.r.c.u.m.l.o.c.u.t.i.o.n.

Word of the day.

Oooh that’s going to hurt.

Another great cartoon thank you Chris = )

yesindyref2 says:
23 September, 2017 at 5:47 pm

@Breeks
Would my possibility of Indy Ref 2 on 14th March 2019 and Independence Day on 15th March 2019 make you happy?

Sorry my friend, but no. You forget my OCD about sovereignty.

Any referendum which has the possibility, worse yet the binary possibility, of Independence versus another constitutionally absurd NO vote, is just kicking the can along the street again.

If we are sovereign people, and cannot vote to be rid of that sovereignty, then isn’t it a thoroughly futile delusion to have that very constitutional absurdity as a choice on a constitutional referendum?

Before any constitutional choice or referendum, there has to be a corrective audit of our sovereign constitution so that whatever choice me make as a Nation is at the very least constitutionally competent.

It is a nonsense to have a sovereign people voting to abdicate that sovereignty but then have that abdication of sovereignty recognised as the sovereign will of the people.

Do you see the absurdity?

Before any future referendum, there has to be a debunking of the current constitutional absurdity of the Act of Union, or, as luck would have it, a reckless constitutional breach of the Treaty occurs which “conveniently” renders the Union defunct and at an end. Brexit, and our thoroughly awkward Remain vote, is just about as perfect a constitutional rift as we might hope for.

Let us not be shy or reserved about heaping the blame for destroying the Union onto Westminster’s Brexit stupidity, but in extricating Scotland from the constitutional dogs breakfast which Westminster forced upon us, let us be minutely precise and detailed, and thoroughly scrupulous about making certain the constitutional path we follow to extricate ourselves from the mess respects every detail and aspect of our inalienable sovereignty. Our sovereignty is sacred and inviolable, AND CANNOT BE JOINED, or removed from the people. (So you can GTF with Westminster’s parliamentary sovereignty forva start!)

We exit the Brexit myre as a sovereign nation, able to hold our seat in the councils of Europe, but also be free to engage with Westminster as two separate and distinct sovereign entities. If the population wants a Union with England, god help us, but if its the will of the people, then we can negotiate a new Union, which would be confederal and consensual. Conspicuously NOT a ratification of the current constitutional mess.

And as for Europe? Forget about it.

We’re in Europe. Let us give it a go as a sovereign member state, making our own decisions, and without the BBC cynics forever telling us what to think, smearing and ridiculing everything European. If we find Europe genuinely doesn’t fit us as well as it should, then as a sovereign Nation, we could choose to leave whenever we liked. But I don’t think playing it by ear for 5 or 10 years is unrealistic. Give it a go says me.

McDuff at 6.34

No doubt you will have noticed that support for the SNP and for independence has significantly climbed in the last few weeks – but that is a bit in convenient for your argument.

Are we all waiting for Susan Calman on Strictly Come Dancing. No? Me neither.

Rock says:

What is your definition of “crashing out”?

Walking away with no deal. Which of course is what the hard right actually want.

I think the sort of fantasy outcomes the UK seems to be hinting at, are far removed from anything the EU will agree to. They may therefor not be genuine,

The EU needs (red lines probably) for Northern Ireland to stay in customs union and single market with the EU, for EU citizens t have their rights guaranteed at the ECJ, and the UK to cough up ~€50B regardless of other payments for transitional access. The UK can’t sell that to the hard right.

The UK appears to want an impossible situation for NI, UK law to be sufficient to guarantee EU citizens’ rights, and paltry payments. The EU will laugh.

Yesindyref2 4.25 pm, Galamenlath @ 5.19 pm and Liz g @ 6.48 pm

Agree. I too think it would be good to declare Independence as soon as possible after the Yes vote.

What I love in particular though is that we are talking about and visualising our Nation as Independent NOW.

THAT is powerful.

Independence is a poised lion ready to leap forward =)

galamcennalath,

“Rock says:

What is your definition of “crashing out”?

Walking away with no deal. Which of course is what the hard right actually want.”

We seem to be thinking alike then:

Rock (19th September – “The warning notice”):

“For your information, a “snap” Brexit means the talks between the two sides will collapse without a deal being reached, which is the intention of the UK government as the EU is not going to give in to any blackmail.

The UK might technically remain in the EU until March 29 2019, but it will be de facto out.

Scotland will be at the mercy of the Westminster government, with no official status in the EU other than a region of the UK.”

Brian Doonthetoon,

“I am Scots and European.”

Don’t forget you are “British” too and will remain “British” even after independence (according to Robert Peffers).

A few SNP bashers posting today. They don’t seem to understand the reality of Scottish politics.

1 Scotland recently voted against becoming an Independent country.

2 Support for Independence at the moment is probably about 40% once you factor in people losing their bottle in the run up to a vote on Independence. I take off 5% for the bottle factor on opinion poll results.

The SNP has to work within these confines. It has to win elections with Independence support in the minority. If Independence support were around 55%, you would have seen a different SNP and a referendum would have been called by now.

The problem is not with the SNP, it is with the Scottish people. You can lead someone to water, but you cannot make them drink.

Good point George Wood.

Though if we are starting our campaign for Independence with 46% we are in a much stronger position than ever before =)

As for the SNP bashers, what I witness is a responsible governing party who are the opposite of devisive, who are working hard at running our Country in all of their population’s interests.

And that strengthens OUR case for Scotland’s Independence 🙂

@rock

Please pay attention.

My passport tells me that I am a citizen of the European Union and of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a bipartite Kingdom formed by treaty and one of the signatories was the Kingdom of Scotland.

My birth certificate tells me I was born in Scotland.

I do not consider myself British although I was born on one of the British Isles, viz. Great Britain aka Greater Brittany.

I know I am wasting my time but this thread has been well subverted from the cartoon and the present very serious situation in NE Spain.

Be ashamed.

New Inform Scotland fundraiser:

link to gofundme.com

I with Alex Clark ATTACK ATTACK

link to gofundme.com

Graf Midgiehunter @ 9.07
Couldn’t agree more …not March….
Could be persuaded for Hogmanay but really really really want a chance that every now and again we can have an outdoors independence day.
There is a big anniversary coming up though for…I think…
the declaration of Arbroath or something similar…. could get on board with that but as a random pick a day absolutely Summer!

Some seem to think that the timing of Brexit is to prevent Scottish independence?

I think not, we (Scots and Scotland) do not register that highly on the average brits “Richter Scale”.

What does concern them is that if in our small way, we could mess things up for them, be it cost, confidence blow or loss of face!

Hence come hell or high water, our government must, vote against the brexit henry the eight clause on repatriation of EU laws to uk.

Two fingers, no compromise and struggle is the only language the uk undrstands, the current negotiations with EU and uk tell is that, the uk is taking a kicking, hence Mrs May Venice speech begging for consessions!

Talking civilly and rationally to brits, only encourages them to stab you in the back, treat them (by that I mean their political class) with distain and.contempt, and they’ll come to heel and be more amenable!

Ask yourself, if you think the above is harsh, how do you think the colonel is treating 50% of Scots at this moment and who gives the colonel her orders?