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Wings Over Scotland


Posted on January 02, 1968 by

For off-topic chat. Duh.

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    1. CameronB Brodie says:

      RE. Dr. Dorothy Kim and wonk speech. I’m very out of touch but that appeared to be a combination of post-colonial theory and queer theory, heavy on the queer. There is nothing wrong with being inclusive but it is certainly up for debate whether it is right to affirm and empower mental ‘disorder’ (allowing self-ID). Women’s sex-based rights are human rights that are protected by Public International Law.

      Understanding Postcolonial Feminism in relation with
      Postcolonial and Feminist Theories


      Postcolonial feminist theory is primarily concerned with the representation of women in once colonized countries and in western locations. While postcolonial theorist struggles against the maiden colonial discourse that aims at misrepresenting him as inferior, the task of a postcolonial feminist is far more complicated. She suffers from “double colonization” as she simultaneously experiences the oppression of colonialism and patriarchy.

      She has to resist the control of colonial power not only as a colonized subject, but also as a woman. In this oppression, her colonized brother is no longer her accomplice, but her oppressor. In his struggle against the colonizer, he even exploits her by misrepresenting her in the nationalist discourses. Not only that, she also suffers at the hand of Western feminists from the colonizer countries who misrepresent their colonized counterparts by imposing silence on their racial, cultural, social, and political specificities, and in so doing, act as potential oppressors of their “sisters”.

      In this article, I explore these struggles of a postcolonial feminist, for it is in her struggle against the “postcolonial” and “feminist” theorists that she can assert her identity as a “postcolonial feminist.”

      Keyword: Postcolonial, Third World Feminism, Western Feminism, Nationalism, Identity, Postcoloniality's_Writing

    2. CameronB Brodie says:

      While I’m at it. Remember, sex is grounded in biology, gender is grounded in the psychology of the self (as we relate to the world around us). Creating law that conflates sex with gender, undermines legal reason and the potential for rational jurisprudence.

      Gender mainstreaming as feminist politics
      A critical analysis of the pursuit of gender equality in
      Swedish local government

    3. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Julie Bindel
      ?Indeed, “UTTER bellendary”. Re. the ongoing marginalisation of lesbians and the penetration of “womanhood” by radical science (constructivism and gender-ID). Well, science has always been used as a means of oppressing women*, but you already know that. 😉

      Sexual orientation, Gender Identity and International Human Rights Law – Practitioners Guide No. 4

      *That is not the purpose or radical constructivism but it has been pirated by patriarchy.

    4. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Edinburgh University
      Better get this sorted before if gets out of hand. No charge, that’s free advice.

      Global Declaration on Women’s Sex-Based Rights

      Declaration on Women’s Sex-Based Rights

      On the re-affirmation of women’s sex-based rights, including women’s rights to physical and reproductive integrity, and the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women and girls that result from the replacement of the category of sex with that of ‘gender identity’, and from ‘surrogate’ motherhood and related practices.


      This Declaration reaffirms the sex-based rights of women which are set out in the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 18 December 1979 (CEDAW), further developed in the CEDAW Committee General Recommendations, and adopted, inter alia, in the United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of Violence against Women 1993 (UNDEVW)….

    5. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Edinburgh University
      The next one isn’t on tick. 😉

      Women in International Law: Research Resources

    6. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bravo Sofonisba Anguissola.

      The (dis)establishment of gender:
      Care and gender roles in the family as a constitutional matter


      This article reasons that for women, as constitutional subjects, the emancipatory promise of constitutionalism was – from its inception – fundamentally limited by the entrenchment of the separate spheres tradition. Focusing on evolving constitutional jurisprudence in the US, Germany and Italy, the article describes a gradual and still imperfect process of (dis)establishment of the originally enshrined gender order, as it has unfolded since the 1970s in US and European constitutionalism.

      It is argued that these processes have allowed the constitutional doctrine of sex equality to challenge the most forthright expressions of the separate spheres ideology, denying the possibility of according men and women a different legal status of rights and duties and keeping women away from the marketplace. In spite of this, to this day, the sex constitutional equality doctrine has been an inadequate tool to fully subvert the pre=established gender order in both its transatlantic iterations. In the US, we find assimilationist workerism with its anti-stereotyping conception of gender equality, providing no support for working women, and in Europe accommodationist workerism, wherein special measures are fostered at the risk of entrenching rather than subverting existing gender roles.

      The article then describes recent evolutions in constitutionalism pointing to a promising third way, with Nordic inspiration, which, challenging traditionally accepted notions of family privacy and foregrounding fatherhood as opposed to just motherhood, would allow us to retain the central importance attached to care and reproduction, but at the same time assist in the process of overcoming traditional gender assumptions and stereotypes built around them.

    7. Gary45% says:

      A wee footy O/T
      If England over valued flop Maguire is getting touted at £65million, surely Celtics Tierney must be worth twice that, as he is at least twice the talent of Maguire.
      Or is it just the usual “you play in Scotland so your shite, here have some porridge and be thankful.”

    8. Thepnr says:


      The song played on the Yes bikers video wasn’t Fiona Hunter after all, it’s the same song but the singer you seek was this one.

      The clue was on the link you posted lol.

    9. CameronB Brodie says:

      re “The wrong puberty”. This must surely convince those not yet sure, that gender ideology is not conducive with rationality. Introducing irrationality into law would undermine the coherence of legal doctrine and the effectiveness of jurisprudence. And that’s for starters.

      A defence of the category ‘women’


      Against influential strands of feminist theory, I argue that there is nothing essentialist or homogenising about the category ‘women’. I show that both intersectional claims that it is impossible to separate out the ‘woman part’ of women, and deconstructionist contentions that the category ‘women’ is a fiction, rest on untenable meta-theoretical assumptions.

      I posit that a more fruitful way of approaching this disputed category is to treat it as an abstraction. Drawing on the philosophical framework of critical realism I elucidate the nature of the vital and inevitable process of abstraction, as a means of finding a way out of the theoretical and methodological impasse that the ‘ban’ on the category ‘women’ has caused. Contrary to many contemporary feminist theorists, I contend that, although the category ‘women’ does not reflect the whole reality of concrete and particular women, it nevertheless refers to something real, namely the structural position as woman.

      abstraction, Judith Butler, critical realism, essentialism, intersectionality, Chandra Talpade Mohanty, social structure, ‘women’

    10. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, I can’t find an open text to this.

      [Critical Review of Gender Ideology in the Light of Metaphysical Realism].


      The implementing of gender ideology in the imaginary of current welfare-state societies owes much to a long process in the history of thought, which has culminated in an accommodation of post-feminist discourse. This paper sets out the epistemological principles that are present in gender ideology, as a response to both its recent and more-remote antecedents.

      It is furthermore framed by an urge for emancipation that began with medieval scholasticism, the latest manifestation of which lies in the post-structuralist deconstructionism that outlines the concept of queer. This concept has dissociated the categories of sex and gender to the point of making them irrelevant for the determination of sexual identity, leaving the latter susceptible to being infinitely de- and reconstructed.

      This article also reviews the liberal-hedonistic context of the new postmodern setting, while showing how the concepts of ?a subjective feeling of happiness? and ?a life fulfilled? do not express similar content. The paper goes on to challenge the theory of gender from the perspective of metaphysic realism; stressing that the human being only appears as a real person via the possibility of anticipating another’s contemplation, thereby cancelling out the abstraction of pure subjectivity. It finally offers its conclusions, with certain substantive recommendations in the field of education.

    11. CameronB Brodie says:


      This article also reviews the liberal-hedonistic context of the new postmodern setting, while showing how the concepts of “a subjective feeling of happiness” and “a life fulfilled” do not express similar content.

    12. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry for taking up so much space but like I said, undermining women’s rights is only the thin end of the wedge.

      Fu Manchu – The Action is Go

    13. Alex Waugh says:

      I’ve just read two news reports: one about how Universal Credit is causing poverty, hunger and homelessness and one about how Harry n Megan are spending 3.2 million doing up their multi-bedroomed ‘cottage’. I am physically incapable of screaming loud enough to express my disgust, anger and despair at what Britain has become. I feel myself becoming more hopeless every day that there will ever be fairness or even simple human decency in UK government. We have to get out of it before it corrodes what little is left of our souls. I wish I knew how to convince nay-sayers to stop supping Westminster’s poison and I also wish that the thieving, heartless bastards that infest the dungheap would all lose their jobs, their homes and their health. Then they might know how real people feel. I know this is pointless but I had to put it down somewhere lest I choke on my outrage.

    14. Thepnr says:

      Hey Smallaxe

      In the off chance that you look in here now again, I saw this tonight and you popped into my head. Don’t ask why as eh dinnae ken why 🙂

    15. Thepnr says:

      Now this is sheer class and a version I’d never seen before. Cockney Rebel from 1975 and a top quality video.

    16. CameronB Brodie says:

      What is a state if it looses sight of natural law and justice? Well it’s not a liberal democracy, that’s for sure. Does the full-English Brexit suggest Scots are afforded natural justice by the British state?

      Mad Caddies – …And We Thought Nation States Were A Bad Idea [Propagandhi]

    17. Thepnr says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      I thought it might have been another lengthy essay but I’ll give you 10/10 for that, was cool 🙂

    18. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Chemical Brothers have always required a high degree of crowd expectation and enthusiasm.

      The Chemical Brothers – Get Yourself High ft. k-os

    19. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cheers mate, I’ll need to tag post as ‘heavy’ or ‘light’. 😉

    20. Thepnr says:

      Here’s a real hippy tune, still relevant today I’d say.

    21. Thepnr says:

      George Baker- Little Green Bag

      Yes you do know it 🙂

    22. Thepnr says:

      Staying on the film theme, this is good, if you a sick Scot lol.

    23. SOG says:

      I’m not a cat lover, but if you have chunky bills, I’d join any crowsfund.

    24. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      I thought “Buffalo Springfield – For What It’s Worth 1967” sounded familiar. I was right, in a way.

      The song was featured on an Island compilation LP, “you can all join in” I bought in 1969. However, the band performing it, “Art”, had changed the title to “What’s That Sound”.

    25. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      It’s actually on YouTube.

    26. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Well spotted my man, if anybody knew something about the record I’m sure it would have been you. I’ve no idea why I know that song, obviously from when I was a wean but don’t know which band I heard, suspect though that it was Buffalo Springfield.

      Who cares anyway, it’s a good tune.

    27. Thepnr says:

      Here’s what I’m hoping for in the Tory election contest.

      Boris Johnson is victorious and becomes leader of the Tory party, he pulls the UK out of the EU with no deal by 31st October.

      Then he sorts out the Scotland “problem” by abolishing the Barnett Formula and lets the treasury decide how much pocket money Holyrood will be allowed to spend with no regard to needs or spending in England, he just cuts our money.

      This satisfies the more rabid supporter of the Tories in England and wins him more kudos.

      No money now for free university tuition or personal care for the elderly in Scotland. Prescription charges to be the same as the rUK and why not? Holyrood won’t be shutdown it would be neutered, no cash for them.

      Bojo WINS Scotland LOL.

      In your dreams, bring it on Bojo, I really can’t wait for you to become Prime Minister and guarantee our Independence.

    28. Betty Boop says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      Well, I am noticing it is a wee bit quiet in here for a change (folk on holiday?), so, gives me a chance to say hi again to those who are about in the past day or so. @Alex Waugh, sorry, I’ve not met you, but, hi.

      So, a wee check in with y’all as I don’t post much at all these days. Cameron, keep up the good work; I enjoy a challenging read! Brian, I’ll see you Saturday, no doubt (mind and not forget your jacket) and Alex, you never know. I just watched the video you put up a few days back of the mountain biker crossing Loch Scavaig and riding the Cuillins ridge; don’t recall seeing it the first time you put it up. Really enjoyed the music, but, that guy, jings, a mountain rescuers nightmare!

      Cheers all.

    29. CameronB Brodie says:

      British nationalists really need to take a long look at themselves and the value they place on constitutional democracy, IMHO. So here’s a post-structural analysis inspired interpretation of the neo-feudal structurally racist nature of the full-English Brexit. Nice. 😉

      Learning To Play The Shenanigan

    30. CameronB Brodie says:

      Betty Boop
      Will do. Here’s a wee read I’ve just gotten hold of through my google account. I expect it will describe Scottish ‘nationalism’ as being an entirely differnet animal to contemporary (white) British nationalism. I think it might also highlight the need to focus on the threat to ‘cultural certainties’, the full-English Brexit represents. 😉

      The Political Thought of Scottish Nationalism

      The brand of nationalism that now plays such an influential role in Scottish politics is of a surprisingly recent vintage. Barely fifty years old, its origins lie not in the medieval battles for Scottish statehood, the Scottish Reformation, the Act of Union, the Scottish Enlightenment, or any of the other familiar historical milestones that regularly crop up in debates about Scottish identity.

      Rather, Scottish nationalism as we know it today began to take shape only in the 1960s and 1970s, and achieved its present ideological maturity in the course of the 1980s and 1990s. The nationalism that emerged from this testing period of Scottish history was unusual, in that it did not primarily demand independence for Scotland in order to defend a threatened ancestral culture. Instead, Scottish nationalists emphasised that independence was the most effective way to promote the political agenda of the left in a neoliberal era.

      Insofar as an ancestral culture was believed to be threatened by the British state, it was the culture of social democratic corporatism, which Scottish nationalists regarded as well suited to Scotland’s long-standing egalitarian and democratic traditions. In the face of the neoliberal restructuring of the British economy that emanated from London, Scottish nationalists interpreted growing opposition to the Conservative party in Scotland as expressive of a deep political divergence that could only be resolved by the creation of a new Scottish state.

      This article examines the political thought of this form of Scottish nationalism. What are the key arguments and intellectual influences that have come together over recent decades to produce this now ubiquitous case for Scottish
      independence? How do the major political ideas deployed in this nationalist discourse sit together? In particular, the article draws attention to three crucial, but discordant, ideological themes that have become recurrent features of the arguments for a ‘yes’ vote in the 2014 referendum: an analysis of the British state indebted to the New Left; a surprising enthusiasm for the politics of the British labour movement; and a belief that we are witnessing the end of the era of absolute state sovereignty.

      In the debate on Scotland’s future that is now unfolding, the ideology and history of unionism has been the subject of considerable, and at times coruscating, analysis. But the character of Scottish nationalism has thus far escaped detailed analytical discussion (though not knockabout political argument) – a reflection, perhaps, of the irresistible compulsion to expose the deficiencies of the Labour party that has gripped the Scottish blogosphere and many of the heavyweight commentators on the Scottish political scene.

      The myths, traditions and outright fudges that have shaped Labour’s unionist social democracy have been mercilessly dissected. But no comparable exercise has been undertaken with respect to Scottish nationalism. This article is therefore not intended to be solely descriptive. It is also a contribution to the development of a more forensic investigation of the ideological foundations of Scottish nationalism analogous to the critical treatments of unionism readily available elsewhere.

    31. David says:

      For Jo Swinson 🙂

      Stanley Baxter does Regional Accents, 1973. (2mins)
      Interesting/ironic to note that the only region to suffer microphone problems in this sketch is, yes you guessed it, Glasgow…
      Stanley Baxter – Parliamo Glasgow – Mia Farra’s farra, the marra & the barra (6 mins)
      “3 Ways to Sound More British” | Pronunciation Lesson (6 mins)
      “Learn to speak with a British English Accent with this pronunciation lesson! 3 tips to improve your British English accent.”
      Pay attention Jo!


      We launched the Inform Scotland BBC Bias campaign following a workshop at the Wingers get-together in Glasgow in 2016.

      We continue to archive examples of BBC Bias and share them widely on social media. We also promote any and all writing on BBC Bias in Scotland. Our car-sticker campaign continues, but we have done no billboards or other similar campaigns lately. see

      Our Chairperson Simon (who you all know) feels he needs to stand down at this stage and the rest of us feel we are in need of new blood to come on board as Directors of our not for profit company Inform Scotland Ltd.

      Are any of you interested in a bit of BBC-focused activism and have suitable skills to act as a director?

      We We also want to find new writers on the theme of the BBC and its machinations in Scotland.

      We are also just about to launch our 2019/2020 fundraiser.

      Your thoughts are welcome and feel free to share with well-connected individuals you think you can help.

      Cadogan Enright FCCA Treasurer Inform Scotland

      you can email informscotland [at] gmail [dot] com or myself directly cadogan [at] enright [dot] ie

    33. Welsh Sion says:

      Just want to congratulate Dan on his latest opus, (up the thread) with regard to a new song to promote independence.

      From a Taff who (despite his stereotypical nationality) sings like a crow with a sore throat but appreciates creativity.

    34. CameronB Brodie says:

      Stop conflating sex with gender, if you can? I’m no brain of Britain but I reckon you’re a bit of an ideologue who is melding in stuff that is above your pay grade, ie. science, philosophy and law. I hope you’ve got your ears pinned back lad?


      Sexuality, gender, and the law now constitutes an important field of legal inquiry and scholarship. This Article traces the evolution of the “big idea” in this area: Contrary to natural law assumptions, the nation is moving decisively toward the norm that sexual and gender variation are typically benign and not malignant.

      Today, this liberal norm is hotly contested by both traditionalists who oppose legal reforms that require them to accommodate sexual and gender minorities, and progressives who argue that the norm should be pressed more aggressively to assail status quo institutions such as marriage. The notion that sexual and gender variation is benign and can be educational continues to revolutionize American constitutional as well as statutory law.


      B. Antidiscrimination: Suspect Classifications and Beyond

      In 1961, hundreds of state-sanctioned discriminatory practices targeted adult citizens because of their (female) sex, (nonconforming) gender, or (homo)sexual activities. Following the civil rights model, feminists and sexual minorities sought repeal or invalidation of these practices and the adoption of affirmative state policies barring discrimination by private employers, schools, and public accommodations.63

      Their arguments reflected a shift toward a more aggressive interpretation of the liberal model embodied in criminal law reform: Sexual or gender variation is not merely tolerable, but benign. This normative point also drew inspiration from the civil rights movement, which successfully maintained that racial variation ought to be considered completely benign as a matter of public policy and constitutional doctrine.64

      Feminists have been particularly successful in invalidating sex discrimination and securing laws barring sex discrimination in the workplace, educational settings, and public accommodations.” The Supreme Court came within one vote of ruling that sex-based classifications, like race-based classifications, require strict scrutiny under the Equal Protection Clause.66 Subsequent decisions have usually struck down sex-based classifications that discriminate against women. In the workplace and other arenas, sex variation is legally benign and cannot be the basis for discrimination.

      Gay people have also successfully advanced the liberal norm of benign variation: The federal government and a large majority of states bar sexual orientation discrimination in government employment; nearly half the states and more than one hundred municipalities bar such discrimination by private employers, and almost as many states and cities bar such discrimination in public accommodations and/or educational institutions.68 A dozen states and a number of municipalities have extended their antidiscrimination rules to include gender identity or orientation as a presumptively irrational basis for employment decisions.69

      As was the case with decriminalization campaigns, public opposition to antidiscrimination rules has increasingly argued within the liberal model, at the expense of the natural law model (which many Americans still privately embrace as a matter of religious faith). Support for rules openly discriminating against women because of sex has virtually disappeared. Supporters of rules discriminating against sexual and gender minorities have largely abandoned the old arguments that “homosexuals” or transgendered persons are immoral, mentally defective, or unnatural, and argue instead that such minorities disrupt the workplace or other public spaces.70

      The most interesting and ascendant argument is completely liberal, both philosophically and constitutionally: Equal protection for sexual and gender minorities can be harmful because it abridges the liberties of religious minorities-namely, fundamentalists who adhere to the natural law model largely rejected by modem legal culture.”

    35. CameronB Brodie says:

      That’s one side of the medical-legal model, so here’s the other side. How you gonna woke your way out of this and why do you want to undermine women’s rights? Remember, according to your former boss, Severin Carrell (a.k.a. the “Semiotic Kid”), ‘we live in a semiotic world’. So stop using words to mean what you want them to mean!

      Reporting Sex, Gender, or Both in Clinical Research?

      Virtually every clinical research report includes basic demographic characteristics about the study participants, such as age, and how many participants were male/men or female/women. Some research articles refer to this latter variable as sex, others refer to it as gender. As one of the first pieces of data reported, the importance of including sex appears undisputed. But what does the sex-gender category really entail, and how should it be reported?

      With emerging evidence that both sex and gender have an effect, for instance, on how an individual selects, responds to, metabolizes, and adheres to a particular drug regimen,1 there is an ethical and scientific imperative to report to whom research results apply. This Viewpoint explains the contexts in which sex and gender are relevant and provides suggestions for improving reporting of this characteristic.

    36. CameronB Brodie says:

      Obviously you should use words as you want them to mean but that does not indicate you can arbitrarily change contextual meaning of words simply through the repetitive use of irrational language. Stop conflating sex with gender, you are undermining open, liberal, society and any hope for social equality between men and women!

      Language and Gender.
      Second Edition.

      Sex and gender

      Gender is not something we are born with, and not something we have, but something we do (West and Zimmerman 1987) – something we perform (Butler 1990). Imagine a small boy proudly following his father. As he swaggers and sticks out his chest, he is doing everything he can to be like his father – to be a man. Chances are his father is not swaggering, but the boy is creating a persona that embodies what he is admiring in his adult male role model.

      The same is true of a small girl as she puts on her mother’s high-heeled shoes, smears makeup on her face and minces around the room. Chances are that when these children are grown they will not swagger and mince respectively, but their childhood performances contain elements that may well surface in their adult male and female behaviors. Chances are, also, that the girl will adopt that swagger on occasion as well, but adults are not likely to consider it as cute as her mincing act.

      And chances are that if the boy decides to try a little mincing, he won’t be considered cute at all. In other words, gendered performances are available to everyone, but with them come constraints on who can perform which personae with impunity. And this is where gender and sex come together, as society tries to match up ways of behaving with biologically based sex assignments. Sex is a biological categorization based primarily on reproductive potential, whereas gender is the social elaboration of biological sex.

      Not surprisingly, social norms for heterosexual coupling and care of any resulting children are closely intertwined with gender. But that is far from the full story. Gender builds on biological sex, but it exaggerates biological difference, and it carries biological difference into domains in which it is completely irrelevant. There is no biological reason, for example, why women should mince and men should swagger, or why women should have red toenails and men should not. But while we think of sex as biological and gender as social, this distinction is not clear-cut. People tend to think of gender as the result of nurture – as social and hence fluid – while sex is the result of nature, simply given by biology. However, nature and nurture intertwine, and there is no obvious point at which sex leaves off and gender begins.

      But the sharp demarcation fails because there is no single objective biological criterion for male or female sex. Sex is based in a combination of anatomical, endocrinal and chromosomal features, and the selection among these criteria for sex assignment is based very much on cultural beliefs about what actually makes someone male or female. Thus the very definition of the biological categories male and female, and people’s understanding of themselves and others as male or female, is ultimately social.

      Anne Fausto-Sterling (2000) sums up the situation as follows: labeling someone a man or a woman is a social decision. We may use scientific knowledge to help us make the decision, but only our beliefs about gender – not science – can define our sex. Furthermore, our beliefs about gender affect what kinds of knowledge scientists produce about sex in the first place. (p. 3)

    37. CameronB Brodie says:

      See if you can get up from this, woke-boy. Natural law is vital to the delivery of justice but the ‘type’ of natural law is important. It can also become harmful if language is dislocated from contextual meaning. It is vital that a “plain language” understanding of “sex” is safeguarded to secure safeguarding and stuff, IMHO. Conflating sex with gender is inherently anti-social and, somewhat paradoxically, undermines the potential for inclusiveness and diversity.

      Our statement on sex and gender reassignment: legal protections and language

      As the national body charged with protecting and promoting equality and human rights in Britain, we welcome the Scottish and UK governments’ consultations on proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act 2004 to remove unnecessary barriers trans people currently face in obtaining a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) in England, Wales and Scotland.

      In UK law, ‘sex’ is understood as binary, with a person’s legal sex being determined by what is recorded on their birth certificate. A trans person can change their legal sex by obtaining a GRC. A trans person who does not have a GRC retains the sex recorded on their birth certificate for legal purposes.

      The Equality Act 2010 protects individuals sharing a protected characteristic from discrimination and harassment. Protected characteristics include sex (being a man or a woman) and gender reassignment (an individual who is ‘proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process or part of a process to reassign their sex). There is no requirement for a trans person to have any kind of medical supervision or intervention in order to be protected from gender reassignment discrimination.

      Certain exceptions in the Act set out circumstances in which it is permissible to treat someone differently because of their sex or gender reassignment, for reasons of public policy or to protect the rights of others. The use of such exceptions generally needs to be justified as being a proportionate way to achieve a legitimate objective. This will often require a case-by-case approach to determine what is legitimate and proportionate in any given circumstance….

      ….’Gender’ refers to socially constructed roles of women and men and/or an individual’s conception of their identity. The term is often used interchangeably with ‘sex’, partly in recognition that much of the inequality between women and men is driven by underlying social and power structures rather than by biological sex. Although the Equality Act protects people from discrimination because of their sex, other UK legislation (such as the regulations requiring employers to publish their gender pay gap) refers to gender. This may cause confusion in some circumstances. To avoid any ambiguity, we are reviewing our use of language across our website and publications to ensure clarity and consistency. However, it is important to note that any mistaken or structural use of the term gender does not affect how the law works in practice.

      As with the Scotland consultation, in preparing our response to the England and Wales consultation we will consult widely and give careful consideration to the need to respect the rights of all individuals affected by any proposed changes. The issues at stake are complex and personal, and we are aware that some people have expressed concerns and uncertainty about the effect of change. It is essential that we all continue to engage in a constructive and respectful way when we have these important conversations, in order to understand the full implications of the current system and any proposed changes to it. We will respond to the consultation in due course.

      P.S. It is disheartening to note that The Equality and Human Rights Commission appear to conflate sex with gender themselves. But then again, Scots are unable to access constitutional justice and must make-do with the human rights that Westminster considers politically acceptable (see the “Right to Development” and the full-English Brexit, for example).

      P.P.S. Has a “constructionist” interpretation of “sex” colonised legal doctrine in Britain?

    38. CameronB Brodie says:

      You are supporting patriarchy and sexist stereotyping, so you are on the wrong side of history re. self-ID. If you are rational rather than tribal, do you not think you might be also be wrong in thinking British nationalism is best for Scotland?

      Gender Identity

      Gender identity and gender role

      Gender identity is defined as a personal conception of oneself as male or female (or rarely, both or neither). This concept is intimately related to the concept of gender role, which is defined as the outward manifestations of personality that reflect the gender identity. Gender identity, in nearly all instances, is self-identified, as a result of a combination of inherent and extrinsic or environmental factors; gender role, on the other hand, is manifested within society by observable factors such as behavior and appearance.

      For example, if a person considers himself a male and is most comfortable referring to his personal gender in masculine terms, then his gender identity is male. However, his gender role is male only if he demonstrates typically male characteristics in behavior, dress, and/or mannerisms.

    39. CameronB Brodie says:

      The trans-rights movement is not selling intersectional feminism, they are selling the colonisation of womanhood by men who’s psychology is disordered from their physiology.

    40. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. intersectional feminism. Remember, from a critical realist perspective, sex is characteristically binary, male or female. It might also be helpful to remember that ‘the social position of biological women’, is the primary concern of feminist theory.

      Developing a Critical Realist Positional Approach to Intersectionality

      This article identifies philosophical tensions and limitations within contemporary intersectionality theory which, it will be argued, have hindered its ability to explain how positioning in multiple social categories can affect life chances and influence the reproduction of inequality.

      We draw upon critical realism to propose an augmented conceptual framework and novel methodological approach that offers the potential to move beyond these debates, so as to better enable intersectionality to provide causal explanatory accounts of the ‘lived experiences’ of social privilege
      and disadvantage.

      KEYWORDS critical realism, critique, feminism, intersectionality, methodology, ontology

    41. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m sorry for taking up so much space but I might as well get hung for a sheep as a lamb. So here’s one with The Royal Astronomical Society in mind. The SNP and Scotland’s judiciary could do worse than giving themselves a shake, as well.

      Legal Realism and Natural Law


      The possibility of any meaningful relationship between the legal realists and natural law looks at first rather far-fetched. When it first appeared on the jurisprudential scene, legal realism was savagely attacked by proponents of natural law theory. To this day legal realism is depicted as a modernist, critical, at times almost nihilist approach to law, the polar opposite of the ancient natural law theory that traces its roots to Greek and Roman philosophy, and insists on unchanging objective values. And yet, two of the most famous legal realists, Karl Llewellyn and Jerome Frank, expressed in some of their writings more than a passing endorsement of natural law theory.

      The purpose of this essay is to try and explain this seemingly odd aspect of their work and in this way help in reassessing their work. We do so by explaining how they understood natural law and how they incorporated it in their work. Though they did not understand the term in precisely the same way, for both of them natural law was connected to the values of the community, which both of them thought were central to understanding law, for explaining how it could remain relatively certain, and ultimately, how it derived its authority.

      Legal realism, natural law, Karl Llewellyn, Jerome Frank, jurisprudence

    42. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Phantom Power “Journey to Yes stories #16 Economy”, Richard Murphy’s overview of indy Scotland’s economy and his critique of GERS. Scotland has not voted for a neo-liberal party for some time, if ever. So what right does Westminster have to enforce a neo-liberal political economy on Scotland? One that is grounded on extremely shaky theoretical grounding, i.e. neo-classical economic theory.

      The Skatalites – Reasoning

      Dialogue on the reform of economics with Tony Lawson’s
      Reorienting Economics as focal point

      Critical Realism in Economics: a different view

    43. CameronB Brodie says:

      One for our politicians who think they are advancing diversity and inclusion by disregarding science and law, in order to claim that TWAW.

      Why Has the Ethics of Care Become an Issue of Global Concern?


      Since Carol Gilligan published her masterpiece, In a Different Voice, many scholars, especially feminist scholars in various fields, including moral theory, philosophy, and political and legal theory, have been inspired to establish a more inclusive approach to social injustice as well as sexual inequality. The purpose of this article is to explore the depth and expanse of the ethics of care for its potential as a political philosophy. To pursue this end, the article analyzes first the main claims of care ethics by responding to its typical counterarguments, which criticize the ethics of care as being too dependent on gender differences, particularism, and essentialism.

      The second section examines three challenges that care ethics poses to the male-oriented mainstream of political philosophy, especially the theory of justice. The ethics of care provides us with a new approach to moral and political issues because it focuses responsively on social injustice, proposes a new idea of relational self and takes the social connection model to justice. With these three perspectives proposed by the ethics of care in mind, the article turns its eyes to global implications of care ethics by referring to the issue of the “comfort women” of Japanese troops during the Second World War.

      P.S. I wonder how many of these “comfort women” had cocks?

    44. CameronB Brodie says:

      So what is a ‘Different Voice’?

      The Oxford Handbook of Rationality
      Gender and Rationality

      Abstract and Keywords

      This article explores feminist stances toward gender and rationality. These divide into three broad camps: the “classical feminist” stance, according to which what needs to be challenged are not available norms and ideals of rationality, but rather the supposition that women are unable to meet them; the “different voice” stance, which challenges available norms of rationality as either incomplete or accorded an inflated importance; and the “strong critical” stance, which finds fault with the norms and ideals themselves.

      This contribution focuses on assessing the various projects – some rival, some complementary – being pursued within the third, critical camp. This article offers a reconstruction of Catherine MacKinnon’s critique of norms of rationality according to which they function to maintain relations of dominance by deauthorizing feminist claims to knowledge.

      Keywords: gender, rationality, classical feminist stance, different voice stance, strong critical stance

    45. CameronB Brodie says:

      @SNP management
      You have a responsibility to manage your team effectively. “Sex” is defined and protected by law. Trans-women do not poses the sexual epistemology of biological women, so they have no right to claim women’s sex-based rights. Get you members telt.

      The Tort of Negligence – Establishing a Duty of Care

    46. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s a sad day when a man in his fifties is more of a feminist than women caught-up in the trans-cult. Especially female politicians, who think they know what they are talking about. The trans movement is ideological entry-ism, and it threatens independence.

      Chapter 2

    47. CameronB Brodie says:

      This trans-rights movement has certainly put a fox in the hen-house. Not only in Scotland mind. Like I said, conflating sex with gender undermines women’s rights and, subsequently, their social position.

      Backlash in Gender Equality and Women’s and Girls’ Rights


      This study, commissioned by the European Parliament’s Policy Department for Citizens’ Rights and Constitutional Affairs at the request of the FEMM Committee, is designed to identify in which fields and by which means the backlash in gender equality and women’s and girls’ rights in six countries (Austria, Hungary, Italy, Poland, Romania, and Slovakia) is occurring. The backlash, which has been happening over the last several years, has decreased the level of protection of women and girls and reduced access to their rights.

      Overview of the political and theoretical context. The “gender ideology” debate

      There are two terms that are used to refer to a reversal to previously accepted norms and a decline in “progress” in the field of women’s rights and gender equality. Backsliding is used in political science to describe a reversal in transitions to liberal democracies,10 whereas backlash is used in feminist journalism and academia to describe a reversal of progress with implementing feminist equality policies and related language. The latter term was first used by Susan Faludi in her 1991 book on Reagan’s 1980s that, in her analysis, thwarted the progress that women had achieved in the 1970s in the form of a challenge by the New Right.11

      The English word “gender” in its sociological-feminist sense has not become mainstream in the languages of the aforementioned countries outside academia, and usually cannot be translated using a single word.12

      Discussion of the origin and development of the ideological and popular movement against “gender ideology” or “gender theory” which started in around 2012 in Europe continues to be a hot topic, but appears to be based on some earlier (mainly religious) schools of thought from the early 2000s.13 Outside Europe, other words are being used to describe the phenomenon such as “Cultural Marxism”, “Gayropa” (post-Soviet countries and Russia) and “political correctness” (USA). Different human rights issues are under attack in these mobilisations, from women’s reproductive rights through LGBTQI rights to technical governance methods (gender mainstreaming) and the academic discipline of gender studies.

      Much of the analysis is placed in this ‘backlash’ framework that is shared by academia, gender experts, feminists, and LGBTQI activists. However, there is also growing left-wing criticism of the (often also left-wing) backlash discourse, especially focusing on East-Central Europe, which seeks to examine regional differences and to move away from ideological oppositions to understand how the transition to the market economy policies have affected women and why this region has become susceptible to such attacks on modernism.

      The human rights paradigm of the EU, it is argued, while focusing on the individual rights of women, does not treat the injustices emerging from the economic order that developed after the transition of 1989 and the austerity policies after the 2008 crisis which affect the everyday lives of women.14 The two most comprehensive edited volumes on the topic are: Gender as Symbolic Glue (Kovacs & Poim, 2015)15 and Anti-Gender, Mobilizing against Equality Campaigns in Europe (Kuhar & Paternotte, 2017).

      On the one hand, it is argued that such attacks represent cultural backsliding against social changes (gender equality, sexual rights, abortion, in-vitro and assisted fertility treatments, interpretation of the causes of violence against women as contained in the Istanbul Convention, gay and trans rights and same sex marriage, and adoption by same-sex couples), a critique of modernity, or a “conservative revolution”.16 To quote one academic analysis: “To use a substantive but contextualized approach we define backsliding as states going back on previous commitments to gender equality norms.

      We operationalize policy backsliding in the field of gender equality along four complementary dimensions: 1) discursive (de)legitimation of gender policy objectives; 2) dismantling and reframing existent policies, 3) backsliding in implementing institutions, coordination, policy programming and funding, 4) dismantling accountability and inclusion mechanisms.”17

      On the other hand, it has been shown that the meaning of “gender” itself has changed over time, and may be being used differently by policy-makers and activists. Some issues monopolised by the “war on gender” also deeply divide the feminist movement (e.g. gender as an innate feeling in identity politics vs. gender as social construction, trans rights for children, and surrogacy, just to name a few). To quote one expert, Kováts states that:

      “First, in the English speaking context gender became widely a substitute of biological sex (e.g. in the case when we speak about gender quotas or gender pay gap, what is meant is male-female ratio). Second, it came to mean women, e.g. gender analysis in policy-making is often used to describe how this or that measure would affect women (and less, as intended, gender relations). Third, it is an analytical category to describe the social quality of distinctions based on sex, the power structures in a given society, between men and women, and the roles, possibilities and constraints in society, assigned on being born male or female (e.g. if we speak about gender-based violence, it refers to the gendered nature of a specific type of violence, rooted in the prevailing patriarchal structure of our societies). Fourth, many use it in the trans and genderqueer activism to mean gender identity18 (a person’s felt sense of identity and expressions, meaning identifying or not with being born male or female).”19 The same author argues that “…the vehement debates on the continent about “gender ideology” seem to be connected to the current contestations in the Anglo-Saxon world about identity politics, a simplified notion of intersectionality and gender understood as identity.”20

      In our study we claim that a backlash in women’s rights is on-going in relation to certain topics (sexual and reproductive health and rights, institutional mechanisms, Istanbul Convention’s ratification, rhetorics, women’s rights civil space, etc.) while there is progress in other areas, mostly disguised as family policy (in family and care policies and the reconciliation of work and private life) at the same time. Sometimes, as in the case of work-life balance, rhetoric about mothers as innate primary caretakers of children contradicts the actual practice of helping working mothers with new policies re-enter the labour market after childbirth earlier, although these are not framed as being related to gender equality. A comprehensive picture can only be created by understanding both these trends.

    48. CameronB Brodie says:

      PJ Harvey – Man-Size

    49. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. the popular urban myth of ‘lady-dick’ and how lesbians must accept them. This rhetorical device is used by trans-activist to shame women into submission, and is an infringement of basic human rights. No man has a right to have sex with a woman. Trans-women are not women, they are trans-women.

      Do We Need a Sex/Gender Distinction?

      1. The Context of the Distinction

      The original context of the distinction was given by Robert

      With a few exceptions there are two sexes, male and female. To determine sex one must assay the following conditions – chromosomes, external genitalia, internal genitalia, gonads, hormonal states, and secondary sex characteristics …. One’s sex, then, is determined by an
      algebraic sum of all these qualities, and as is obvious, most people fall under one of the two separate bell curves, the one of which is called ‘male’, the other ‘female’.

      Gender is a term that has psychological and cultural rather than biological connotations; if the proper terms for sex are ‘male’ and ‘female’, the corresponding terms for gender are ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’, these latter being quite independent of (biological) sex. Gender is the amount of masculinity and femininity found in a person, and obviously, while there are mixtures of both in many humans, the normal male has a preponderance of masculinity and the normal ‘female’ a preponderance of femininity.4

      Ann Oakley, whose book Sex, Gender and Society helped popularise the distinction, sums up: ‘Sex is a biological term; “gender” a psychological and cultural one.’5

      The concept was developed further by sex-role theory, in terms of ‘sex-role stereotyping’. If sex is given in terms of the biological characteristics set out above, one’s gender is given by one’s sex-role, that behaviour which forms a role or is deemed appropriate for a person of a given sex. Such a notion is both heavily normative (although the role notion is neatly ambiguous between a normative and descriptive sense of role6) and relative to a particular society, place and time where the deeming is done.

      This notion of gender assumes a simple set of uniform social expectations for gender apparently taken as shared by all members of society, and neglects or fails to invite questions about social dynamics, power, and whose expectations are relevant. The degree of conformity to one’s sex-role is the measure of gender, one’s degree of masculinity, femininity, and one’s successful socialisation into the appropriate role.

      But although the distinction initially appeared within this context it would be a mistake to view it as irrevocably tied to such a behavioural context, or to a context of role theory, or socialisation theory. Many current aspects of the use of the distinction do not need to rely on the extra theoretical baggage which these contexts impart to it. The distinction does not stand or fall then with the context in which it was introduced, and now leads a somewhat independent life.

      In order to see how far the distiction is necessary and how far it might be reconstructed in a different context, it is important to look at its major functions and uses. I don’t want to suggest that the use of the distinction is always clear-cut. In fact there seems to be a good deal of confusion about some areas of use. For example, we usually speak of love between the sexes. But if it is as social beings, both embodied and as a part of society which treats that body in certain ways, that men and women love one another, then it is love between the genders which is in question.

      Clearly there are confused uses about, and often the distinction seems little more than a nuisance, insisting that we make a choice and division (is it biological or social love?) where no choice seems needed or indeed possible or relevant. We need a piece of inclusive terminology too it seems, for when we can’t or we don’t need to make a distinction. Nevertheless the distinction does have a real point, as I argue below.

    50. CameronB Brodie says:

      ….No man has a right to have sex with a woman.

      I would have been better suggesting that nobody has the right to have sex with anyone else. Or do trans-activists think laws against r4pe don’t concern them because they are special?

    51. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. As far as I’m aware, martial rape was outlawed in Britain as recently as the 1990’s. Legal doctrine is inherently sexist, hence feminist jurisprudence.

    52. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. As far as I’m aware, martial r4pe was outlawed in Britain as recently as the 1990’s. Legal doctrine is inherently sexist, hence feminist jurisprudence.

    53. CameronB Brodie says:

      Is it not obvious why lesbians are being discriminated against? Firstly, their sexual preference means they have no need for men, which is an affront to patriarchy. Second, they are the ones most threatened by “lady dick”, so most resistant to law that would endanger them. Third, a large portion of Britain’s homosexuals are misogynistic dickheads (see Owen Jones, for example), so lesbians can whistle if they expect any solidarity from the homosexual mainstream. As such, lesbians will be excluded from woke society.

      Veruca Salt – Seether

    54. CameronB Brodie says:

      I see Stonwall UK are double down on their misogyny. Promoting a r4pe guide is certainly not a good look. These guys appear determined to undermine open, liberal, society. Given their advocacy for pedophiles, I reckon Stonewall poses a real and present danger to women and children. Yet thay are publicly funded. That’s a total brain-melt.

      Feminism, Foucault, and R4ape: A Theory and
      Politics of R4pe Prevention

      Why isn’t r4pe the same as a punch in the face? In October 1977, the Paris-based Change Collective published a volume entitled “La folie encerclee.”‘ In it is reprinted a series of debates on themes related to repression. It was in one of these roundtable discussions that French philosopher Michel Foucault asked this very question, arguing that the crime of rape should be punished as a form of physical violence “and nothing but.”2 He argued for the decriminalization of r4pe as a sexual crime:

      One can always produce the theoretical discourse that amounts to saying: in any case, sexuality can in no circumstances be the object of punishment. And when one punishes r4pe one should be punishing physical violence and nothing but that. And to say that it is nothing more than an act of aggression: that there is no difference, in principle, between sticking one’s fist into someone’s face or one’s penis into their sex …. [T]here are problems [if we are to say that r4pe is more serious than a punch in the face], because what we’re saying amounts to this: sexuality as such, in the body, has a preponderant place, the sexual organ isn’t like a hand, hair, or a nose. It therefore has to be protected, surrounded, invested in any case with legislation that isn’t that pertaining to the rest of the body …. It isn’t a matter of sexuality, it’s the physical violence that
      would be punished, without bringing in the fact that sexuality was involved.

      Foucault’s claim sent a tremor through feminist intellectual circles and has since sustained an entire genre of feminist engagement.4 This paper situates Foucault’s provocative question within his sprawling oeuvre on power and the body, focusing specifically on its implications for a feminist politics5 of r4pe and, in particular, r4pe prevention. What exactly does it mean to the gendered subject to “desexualize” r4pe? What might it mean to take seriously Foucault’s
      paraphrased question: why isn’t r4pe the same as a punch in the face? In particular, what might it bring to a feminist response to r4pe and r4pe prevention both theoretically and practically? 6

    55. CameronB Brodie says:

      The last paragraph wasn’t meant to be indented, as i wasn’t part of the quote. Sorry.

    56. CameronB Brodie says:

      It looks like I missed an edit, I thought I’d avoided the word filters. Bugger. 🙂

    57. CameronB Brodie says:

      Just in case the Rev. is too busy to clean-up after me.

      Feminism, Foucault, and R4ape: A Theory and
      Politics of R4pe Prevention

    58. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m really sorry for being a smartypants and taking up so much space.

      Thievery Corporation – Forgotten People

    59. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Not been much in here of late, it seems, so here’s a wee musical interlude with a message of which you might all possibly approve:

    60. CameronB Brodie says:

      It is alarming that folk still can’t see a problem with the proposed change to the GRA. Law aims to deliver justice through logic and reason. However, the law’s potential for impartiality is undermined if the law’s use of language become arbitrary. Justice becomes arbitrary at that point.

      The proposed changes to the GRA would introduce irrealism and irrationality into legal reason, thereby undermining the coherence of existing international public law aimed at gender equality. As such, the proposed changes would impair the effectiveness of international public law protecting biological women from the effects of patriarchy.

      Transgender ideology was invented to disrupt and dismantle existing cultural norms. To do so, transgender ideology must disrupt and dismantle legal reason. In doing this, transgender ideology would strengthen patriarchy and open the door to regressive totalitarianism, on a global scale.

      Becoming Woman, or Sexual Difference Revisited

    61. CameronB Brodie says:

      As that one wasn’t particularly ‘easy-access’.

      Human Rights Advocacy on Gender Issues: Challenges and Opportunities

    62. CameronB Brodie says:

      Anglo-American neo-liberalism is a re-packaging of the economic system of 18th century slavery. The powers that be will not easily allow their domination of society to be undermined (see Farage as go-between between American fascism and British politics).

      However, as it appears that Scots law is happy to debase itself in order to sustain British nationalism, I think we’ve certainly rocked the shit out of Establishment’s self-confidence and sense of self-entitlement and exceptionalism.

      Lee Perry – Panic in Babylon

    63. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I will be talking to a bad boy tonight (just outa the jile) who has quite a lot to say about how we deal with crime and prisons etc on my Roundabout show at 7 pm on Argyll Independent Radio online -if he turns up (or hasn’t been nicked again).

    64. David says:

      I saw this vid of a music fan in a wheelchair crowd-surfing at a music festival in Spain, and it really impressed me.
      People *can* do the right thing, they can help each other without needing a reward other than knowing they are doing the right thing.

      Article in English, contains link to video:

    65. CameronB Brodie says:

      Can I talk about sex again? Well, I’ve a bit of a one-track mind, tbh. Sex-classes must remain grounded in biology if they are to have any practical value, so here’s an ethical way to determine whether trans-women are women or whether they are trans-women. 😉

      Why Are There So Many Theories for Sex,
      and What Do We Do with Them?


      It is widely known that there exists a multitude of possible explanations for the maintenance of sex; however, it is less clear how to handle such an explanatory pluralism. In this paper, we address one older and one more recent discussion on what might constitute a good theory for sex and find that they reflect a trade-off between maximizing the scientific virtues of generalism, realism, and precision.

      A historical analysis indicates that varying research interests and research backgrounds of the different biologists shape the trade-off. We use the reflection on the trade-offs in order to understand the existence of the diversity of theories in the field and discuss how to address the explanatory pluralism.

      We find that the existence of multiple theories for sex, that is, explanatory pluralism, is not surprising or embarrassing but can be seen as a resource. Still, it is important to clarify the possibilities of integration of different theories. Integration between certain theories might be complex, however, as they involve models and theories from different disciplines that have diverged historically in both conceptual and methodological aspects.

      explanatory pluralism, Levins, maintenance of sex, philosophy of science, trade-off

    66. CameronB Brodie says:

      Back in the day before feelz overtook realz in Canada.

      Introduction to Sociology – 1st Canadian Edition
      Chapter 12. Gender, Sex, and Sexuality

      Learning Objectives

      12.1. The Difference between Sex and Gender

      Define and differentiate between sex and gender
      Define and discuss what is meant by gender identity
      Understand and discuss the role of homophobia and heterosexism in society
      Distinguish the meanings of transgendered, transsexual, and homosexual identities

      12.2. Gender

      Explain the influence of socialization on gender roles in Canada
      Understand the stratification of gender in major North American institutions
      Describe gender from the view of each sociological perspective

      12.3. Sex and Sexuality

      Understand different attitudes associated with sex and sexuality
      Define sexual inequality in various societies
      Discuss theoretical perspectives on sex and sexuality

    67. CameronB Brodie says:

      The reform of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 is so named, as it refers to the re-assignment of “gender” and not “sex”. It is not possible to self-determine one’s sex.

      Aretha Franklin – (You Make Me Feel Like) A Natural Woman

    68. David says:

      Anent CameronB’s postings, would I be right in thinking that much of the recent gender/sex stramash is based on people misinterpreting a Shania Twain song…

      Shania Twain – “Man! I Feel Like A Woman”

    69. David says:

      P.S. I like the role reversal in Shania’s backing band, compared to Robert Palmer’s earlier hit “Addicted to Love”.
      Shania went with himbos, where Robert went with bimbos. 🙂
      Robert Palmer – “Addicted To Love” (1986)

    70. Al-Stuart says:


      BBC FFS…

      Island businesses are closing because of the CalMac and CMAL incompetence.

      In breach of their charter, the British Unionist Media State broadcaster is at it again with their SNP-badddd meltdown. The SNP rescued Ferguson Shipbuilders from closure.

      Decent minded Scots and especially islanders are grateful for a government that actually did something to help save a Scottish Shipyard.

      When, oh when will Holyrood debate the BBC repeatedly breaching the BBC charter and the BBC fraudulently taking money off of people with menaces.

      Stuart, PLEASE can you put a big red button on your website directly linking us and WoS to their complaints form page so e can all report the BBC every time we see this carp? Serious request. Thanks.

      I pay the BBC license fee as my job would be lost with a criminal conviction, but it gives me the dry boakhaving to give these BBC pe do supporters money to defame my First Minister and my government…

      I want Scotland to become independent to stop the Tories killing the disabled. Catch a load of Theresa May’s coupon on the welfare reform death list….

      The BBC bias is causing IndyRef2 heaps of damage and either costing Islanders their jobs with this ferry pi sh or worse, killing us aff via Westminster DWP and ATOS etc.

      Stu., any chance you can help nudge the Scottish Government to bring the highly paid BBC Scotland executives before committee at the Scottish Parliament to explain themselves?

      I believe Scotland will NOT win Independence until the likes of BBC Scotland stop this SNP badddd garbage.

      We know the BBC are bias creeps. But old Labour Mrs McGinty in the schemes and LibDem Hamish McSporran up the glen could do with some help opening the eyes to the excrement they are being served from the Union TV channel.

    71. Cactus says:

      Evenin’ aye anna recent WingsScotland twitter re-tweety:

      Q. Take away ALL of the WORDS from the ad board, what do you see?

      A. Cunt.

    72. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This was playing in the Stevenston Morrison’s today – FFS, haven’t heard it for years, instantly transported me back to a strangely happy time when some new music could still give a real thrill:

      Terence Trent D’Arby, Dance Little Sister –

    73. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Jo Swinson
      In order to believe that trans-women are literally women, one has to reject the biopsychosocial model of health. Queer theory in law seeks to challenge existing norms, which is nice, but should not trump ethical reason. Trans-women are trans-women, so they do not have any human right to claim sex-based rights accorded to biological women.

      Or do you think “womanhood” is solely an emotional state relating to patriarchal stereotypes?

      The Neuropsychology of Sex Differences in Human Brain Organization


      Over the past decade, the media have focused much interest on the topic of sex differences in cognitive abilities, behavior and human brain organization. As the demand for information increased, so too did the amount of speculation, distortion and oversimplification of the original facts and theories. Indeed, there seemed to be an inverse relationship between the limited knowledge base and the proliferation of non-scientific publications.

      This paper intends to redress the imbalance by summarizing some important clinical discoveries in the past five years pertaining to sex differences in human brain organization of verbal and spatial abilities (for review of previous data see McGlone, 1980). Emphasis will be placed on prospective studies of neurological patients with localized brain dysfunction caused by disease, surgery, drug injection or direct electrical stimulation.

      Mental Rotation Spatial Ability Verbal Skill Hemisphere Lesion Cerebral Organization

    74. CameronB Brodie says:

      The Gender Recognition Act is so named, as the process of gender-reassignment does not change the individual’s sex, it simply modifies the physiology of the individual to reflect they now wish to be viewed as being of the opposite gender to their biological sex. Biological sex is not a performance though, it has real effect in the real world. Allowing men to legally claim they are women, undermines public safety for women and children, for starters. Simples.

      It is vital that sex-classes remain grounded in biology, for all sorts of practical reasons.

      Woman/man as cross cultural categories
      The sex/gender distinction with reference to the so-called third sex

      The sex/gender distinction is widely used among social scientists. It is considered to be a useful analytical tool for studying differences between men and women. This essay will discuss the significance of this distinction with reference to the third gender and the contents of and relations between the two categories….

      Traditional approaches to sex and gender

      Every society seems to categorise its members on the basis of gender. Gender is related to, and in one way or another based on sex (Shapiro 1991). Gender is normally referred to as the socially and culturally constructed differences between men and women within a cultural system. Sex, on the other hand, is traditionally seen as a biological entity (Seymour-Smith 1986).

      Social anthropologists emphasise gender variations in their studies of differences and similarities between the sexes. They try to offer an alternative to biological determinism, which argues that behaviour is grounded on biological facts. Sex is for social anthropologists a category which is considered to be universal and unproblematic. Biology, and thus sex, is often seen as something which is just there and has little influence on the social reality. Margaret Mead found through her studies in Samoa that gender is socially constructed rather than determined by biology (Caplan 1987). This is in many ways characteristic of the way social anthropologists approach sex and gender….

      ….From the discussion above, one can see that gender identities are grounded in ideas about sex and cultural mechanisms create men and women. But some boys become women and some girls become men. Judith Shapiro defines transsexualism like this: “…suspension of the usual anatomical recruitment rule to gender category membership” (Shapiro:248).

      Because of this nature of transsexualism, it is especially helpful to study the phenomenon in order to see the relevance of the sex/gender distinction. According to Shapiro the transsexuals who wish to take, or have undergone, a sex operation show us that gender is more powerful than biological sex, although sex can be problematic. Transsexuals have a clear idea about their gender identity. But their biological identity does not correspond to their gender.

      Transsexuals do not wish to change the categories: male and female. They try to “pass” as a gender that does not fit with their original biological sex, but by doing so they do not create a new category. In this sense they do not constitute a third gender. They merely uphold the distinction society makes between men and women. Shapiro argues that this shows us that gender cannot be predicted by anatomical sex:

      “…the basis on which we are assigned a gender in the first place (that is, anatomical sex) is not what creates the reality of gender in ongoing social life” (Shapiro:257).

      The Jokers – Tabou

    75. CameronB Brodie says:

      Oops, I’m sure folk could have search for themselves, but here’s the correct link to the brain science above.

    76. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Anyone want to see the Ian Brotherhood Show from 2014?


    77. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      FFS! That’s the first time I’ve seen that longer version, only ever saw clips before.

      Feels like an awful long time ago now. And how much credit has to go to a certain Ronnie Anderson for making those demos so effective?


    78. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m thinking of changing my online-ID to “Because they refused to wax Jessica’s scrotum.”. When legal interpretation takes a constructivist view of “sex”, legal reason and the potential for justice are jeopardised. Particularly if you are a biological woman. Long live patriarchy and the full-English Brexit, apparently.

      Governing Legal Embodiment: On the Limits of Self-Declaration


      This article presents the first empirically-based and theoretically-informed investigation of the effectiveness of the ‘self-declaration model’ of legal gender recognition in Denmark, the first European state to adopt it.

      Drawing upon analysis of legislative materials, as well as interviews with stakeholders in the legislative process and trans and intersex legal subjects, it contends that self-declaration is not without its limitations. By conceptualising embodiment as an ontological and epistemological process of becoming, and emphasising the institutional dimensions and effects of such processes, it demonstrates that self-declaration may not address the complexities of legal embodiment, particularly concerning restrictions on trans and intersex people’s access to health care.

      The article’s empirical findings are directed towards the policymakers and activists tasked with shaping reforms of gender recognition legislation in the UK and elsewhere. The analytical agenda it develops may be adopted, and adapted, by scholars working in this area and other regulatory contexts.

      Denmark Embodiment Gender Recognition Self-declaration Trans

    79. CameronB Brodie says:

      I forgot to sign-off but I appear to be on a bit of a role, not a bap.

      N.B. From the perspective of Critical Philosophy and Critical Sociology, “performativity” should be viewed as mode of being that conforms to the neo-liberal transformation of society, i.e. it appears to offer choice but actually bolsters patriarchy.

      Gender Trouble in Social Psychology: How Can Butler’s Work Inform Experimental Social Psychologists’ Conceptualization of Gender?


      A quarter of a century ago, philosopher Judith Butler (1990) called upon society to create “gender trouble” by disrupting the binary view of sex, gender, and sexuality. She argued that gender, rather than being an essential quality following from biological sex, or an inherent identity, is an act which grows out of, reinforces, and is reinforced by, societal norms and creates the illusion of binary sex.

      Despite the fact that Butler’s philosophical approach to understanding gender has many resonances with a large body of gender research being conducted by social psychologists, little theorizing and research within experimental social psychology has drawn directly on Butler’s ideas.

      In this paper, we will discuss how Butler’s ideas can add to experimental social psychologists’ understanding of gender. We describe the Butler’s ideas from Gender Trouble and discuss the ways in which they fit with current conceptualizations of gender in experimental social psychology. We then propose a series of new research questions that arise from this integration of Butler’s work and the social psychological literature. Finally, we suggest a number of concrete ways in which experimental social psychologists can incorporate notions of gender performativity and gender trouble into the ways in which they research gender.

      Keywords: gender trouble, gender, gender performativity, social psychology, non-binary gender, genderqueer, Judith Butler

      The Jokers – Soul Sound

    80. CameronB Brodie says:

      It is possible to protect the human rights of trans individuals, without adopting a constructavist interpretation of “sex” in law and medical practice. Allowing self-ID of sex undoes legal boundaries that society has created in order to protect the vulnerable. That doesn’t advance global human rights, it undermines them and supports patriarchy.

      Rendering the Sexed Body Legally Invisible: How Transgender Law Hurts Women

      The gross misappropriation of executive power to utterly remake the meaning of very basic legal terms threatens not only the structure of our government. It threatens the rule of law itself. This distortion of legal language is a particular threat to laws concerning women.

      P.S. Womanhood isn’t simply a range of stereotypicaly feminine flavours, is it?

      The Jokers – Instant Coffee

    81. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ultimately, most of us just want to be healthy, happy and left in peace to do our own thing. Unfortunately, modern politics in the immanent state of Brexitania, is not conducive to respecting inalienable human rights of many (see austerity and the full-English Brexit). So I’m a wee bit sorry for the length of this post, but sometimes stepping back from a situation can reveal illuminating context.

      Rereading the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: Plurality and Contestation, not Consensus

      3. Contested Dignity, or, Where Agreement Stops and Politics Begins

      The idea of human dignity is central in the UDHR. Parekh sums up the issue, saying ‘Ultimately the assumption of the natural dignity of human being became part of the UDHR despite the attempts by the drafters to keep the language neutral on this topic.’ (Parekh 2007, 763) Supporter and critic alike agree that “human dignity” in the UDHR points to the essential human characteristics that give rights their authority, where they part company is on whether a neutral and consensual definition was achieved – or is possible at all.

      There are two problems with this understanding. First, the focus on a neutral account of dignity, or its absence, is required by the legislative understanding of rights, which sees them as moral principles that determinately limit the boundaries of politics. If we reject this view in favor of an agonistic one, then the contestation over, and ambiguity of, human dignity is as important as the consensus, or lack thereof. This highlights the second problem with conventional understandings of human dignity in the UDHR: they only focus on those elements emphasizing the need for, and achievement of, consensus – leaving the contest over the meaning of dignity under-examined.

      In this section, I focus on why the drafters19 thought human dignity was so important to the UDHR, as well as how they disagreed about the meaning of dignity, which suggests that rather than achieving a consensus, the UDHR is an early opening in an ongoing discussion of human dignity and its significance in world politics. Reading histories of the UDHR, and transcripts of the drafting process, one is struck by how long the drafters spent suggesting, debating and revising individual articles. Yet, an important philosophical conversation prefaced this practical work and constantly re-emerged.

      As P. C. Chang, the primary Chinese representative, stated in a meeting of the UNCHR intended to define their task, ‘I am afraid when we are asserting rights, rights, and rights, we are apt to forget the standard of man. It is not merely a matter of getting things, getting things, but also: what is the objective of being a man?’ (UN Commission on Human Rights 1947b) The discussion of human dignity was seen by many of the drafters to be a vital part of the declaration, for it served as justification in the preamble for the rights articulated.

      While others, notably Colonel Hodgson, representing Australia, and Hansa Mehta, representing India, were critical of the extended philosophical debates that were had throughout the drafting process. Yet, despite trying the patience of some, there was an overall sense that these philosophical issues mattered. Charles Malik, of Lebanon, responded to Mehta’s impatience with philosophical talk by underlining that ideology informs all thought and insisting that the UNCHR deal with such matters in the open.

      Then, the honourable representative from India said that the Charter already contains a mention of human dignity and worth and that we should not enter into any ideological maze in our discussion here. Well, unfortunately, whatever you say, Madam, one must have ideological presuppositions and, no matter how much you fight shy of them, they are there and you either hide them or you are brave enough to bring them out into the open and see them and criticize them. Furthermore, it is precisely my intention to give meaning to that vague phrase, human dignity and worth, which is used in the Charter to give it content and,
      therefore, to save it from hollowness and emptiness. (Charles Malik quoted in UN Commission on Human Rights 1947e)

      The discussion of dignity was important in revealing the different views of why human dignity justified the new human rights declared, but it did more than that. By focusing the drafters on the task of, as Chang put it, ‘making the standard of man respected,’ (UN Commission on Human Rights 1947b) the focus on human dignity clarified the problem they were addressing. The declaration of these new human rights was intended to affirm universal moral principles for
      international politics based not on the authority of states but the value of human dignity. Early on Chang grasped the novelty of what they were doing, saying, ‘we are dealing with something which has not been dealt with before, namely the international aspect of equality.’ (UN Commission on Human Rights 1947e)

      While it is possible to overstate the importance of Nazi atrocities to the UDHR drafting (Waltz 2001, 53), the wider context of WWII was the immediate backdrop. In particular, there was a sense that the defense of human dignity provided by a new human rights institution was called for by the mistreatment of, and extreme demands placed on, individuals (Lauren 2003, 204–205). Assistant Secretary General, Henri Laugier, opened the 1st meeting of the UNCHR with a clear evocation of this purpose:

      With your boundless devotion to the cause of human rights and to the cause of the United Nations, let us here gather strength for our fight from the recent memory of the long darkness through which we have come, where tens of millions of human beings died so that human rights might stay alive, from the memory of all those men and women who have found in their dignity alone the strength to sacrifice their lives in order, obstinately, to proclaim, amidst the depths of surrounding darkness, the presence and the permanence of the stars. (UN Commission on Human Rights 1947a)

      The work of defending human dignity was seen as a deeply moral task demanded by concrete political tragedy. In particular, there was a sense that a common humanity had to be affirmed and that individuals protected from the power of the state. Cassin expressed these commitments often:

      We have seen and lived through a period when human society has been practically destroyed by the application of a concept of race, or concept of the nation, or concept of the volk, I will call it; and it is a most important fact that we should have lived to see this possibility of men crushing and denying the rights of man, both as communities and as individuals. I think we must insist upon this fact: that we must finally reach the fusion of the idea of man as a community and man as an individual. (UN Commission on Human Rights 1947b)

      The State, in other words the collectivity, has asked the maximum from millions of people, the greatest thing they could offer – their lives. (Drafting Committee 1947f)

      The sacrifice demanded by the state played a key role in understanding both rights to membership and welfare provisions as central to human dignity.16 This is important because the discussion of human dignity was not simply an abstract philosophical discussion, but a form of practical moral reasoning at work, articulating a moral ideal to guide political change. Human dignity was defended against a backdrop of real offenses – all encompassing interstate war, mass slaughter, enormous civilian casualties, nationalist and racist ideology, statelessness, economic depression – and the debate reflected that situation even as it revealed a pluralism of views on how to address it.

      Malik, Chang and Cassin are widely considered to be the primary intellectual forces involved in the drafting (Glendon 1997, 1157–1159).17 This, however, did not mean they were of one mind on the meaning of human dignity. In an early UNCHR meeting, Malik focused on dignity in terms of conscience, defined as the ability to change one’s mind:

      If we have any contribution to make, it is in the field of fundamental freedom, namely, freedom of thought, freedom of conscience and freedom of being. And there is one point on which we wish to insist more than anything else, namely that it is not enough to be, it is not enough to be free to be what you are. You must also be free to become what your conscience requires you to become in light of your best knowledge. It is therefore freedom of becoming, of change that we stress as much as freedom of being. (Malik 2000, 16–17)18

      This led him to focus on the protection of persons from the power of the state, to accord a special place to civil society, and to support the preservation of space for free thought, opposition and even rebellion against established authority (Malik 2000, 26). Further, he was among the strongest advocates of human rights because he thought they ensured that the people determined the state. ‘We intend to say that the people are active and take the initiative in the determination of the State. It is not as though you come to the people, offer them something, and they consent to it. It is our intention that originally the people, themselves, take the initiative in determining what the state should be.’ (Drafting Committee 1947f)

      So, while it is accurate to point to Malik’s emphasis on ‘natural rights’, we see that his understanding of their justification was hardly orthodox and attempted to preserve, in the concept of human dignity, what he saw as essential in human being and becoming.19 There is a tension in Malik’s view, or perhaps blindness, in asserting that the most important freedom to protect is a person’s freedom to change and become, while also asserting that we can build a social order upon man’s essential nature that does not limit that very freedom. Yet, despite his essentialist rhetoric, Malik continuously put the protection of the freedom of the person into the context of his times.

      Who is this person? This person, Mr. President, is the living, dying man who suffers and rebels, is scared, is often undecided, makes mistakes, the man who thinks, hesitates, decides, and gossips, and who needs to be lifted when he falls. It is the being even who blushes, laughs, and changes his mind when he knows better. This being, Mr. President, in his own personal dignity and self-respect is in danger of being drowned and obscured by political and ideological systems of all sorts. (Malik 2000, 60)

      Whatever the consistency of his metaphysical beliefs about human nature, Malik’s defense of human rights was based on an opposition to forms of social order that failed to respect persons as feeling, thinking and creative beings increasingly subject to the power of the nation-state, at the cost of intermediate ties, and devalued by contemporary conditions and ideologies. Along with Malik, Chang was probably the most philosophically inclined participant.20 In addition to clearly articulating the task the drafters had before them in terms of human dignity,

      Chang also made important contributions the idea as it developed in the UDHR. His primary thought was that conscience, as an essential aspect of dignity, involved what he called ‘two-man mindedness.’ (Drafting Committee 1947d) The idea of two-man mindedness implies sympathy as fellow feeling, but also something deeper and more demanding, what Chang described as ‘extending our consciousness to others.’ (Drafting Committee 1947d) This involved both recognition of mutual duties between all human beings and respect for the values of others. ‘The definition of man is to be human-minded – namely, that whatever he does, he thinks of the other person as if the other person were in his place.’ (UN Commission on Human Rights 1947b) This entailed not only the acknowledgment of a common humanity, but also an insistence that two-man mindedness enabled understanding across cultural barriers and could inspire consideration for others….

    82. CameronB Brodie says:

      I forgot to sign-off again.

      Odetta – I Know Where I’m Going

    83. CameronB Brodie says:

      I wish my imaginary scenario with the gynecology discipline were a satirical proposition. It is for the moment. But I have no faith that it will remain imaginary. The following words have—in format—become a cliché, but only because the insight the original words represent is so often the most fitting commentary on a democracy’s demise, which always begins with the sacrifice of individual freedoms on the altar of irrational dogmas: “First they came for the waxologists, but I did not speak up because I was not a waxologist …” – Barbara Kay

      Strangely enough, I was looking at this earlier on today. Telt you I’m a bit of a weirdo. Spooky. 🙂

      Wittgenstein against ‘Positivist’ Approaches to International Relations: Replacing the Anti Representationalist Objection

      1.1 Concise Statements of the Anti-­?Representationalist Objection

      An explicit statement of the ARO is found early on in Kratochwil’s 1989 book entitled Rules, Norms and Decisions.

      There, in the introduction, Kratochwil writes: “I shall argue that our conventional understanding of social action and of the norms governing them is defective because of a fundamental misunderstanding of the function of language in social interaction, and because of a positivist epistemology that treats norms as ‘causes.’

      Communication is therefore reduced to issues of describing ‘facts’, properly, i.e. to the ‘match’ of concepts and objects, and to the ascertainment of nomological regularities. Important aspects of social action such as advising, demanding, apologizing, asserting, promising, etc., cannot be adequately understood thereby.

      Although the philosophy of ordinary language has abandoned the ‘mirror’ image of language since the later Wittgenstein, the research programs developed within the confines of logical positivism are, nevertheless, still indebted to the old conception. I shall argue in this book that only a fundamental reorientation of the research program is likely to overcome these difficulties.” (Kratochwil, 1989: p.5-­?6)

      In this passage Kratochwil identifies his target as ‘conventional’ approaches to IR which were “developed within the confines of logical positivism”, and allegedly employ “a positivist epistemology that treats norms as ‘causes’” and reduce communication to the ‘description of facts’ and “the ascertainment of nomological regularities”. Kratochwil argues that the relevant approaches to IR are indebted to an old conception or ‘image’ of language as a ‘mirror’, which he claims was long ago abandoned by ordinary language philosophers in the wake of later Wittgenstein.

      The suggested conclusion is that the historical abandonment of the mirror image of language within philosophy, and the criticisms that led to this abandonment, should lead IR scholars to fundamentally reorient their research programmes away from ‘positivist’ approaches to IR. It is worth noting that although the above passage was written in 1989, Kratochwil has asserted as recently as 2001 that ‘positivism’ is “the orthodox understanding of science among IR specialists” (Kratochwil, 2001: p.14), and has continued in his contemporary work to warn against ‘theories’ of IR “in the fashion of ‘science’” (Kratochwil, 2016: p.291). Less detailed expressions of the above line of argument are also found in Kratochwil’s 2001 and 2013 essays respectively (2001: p.29 & 34; 2013: p.2).

      A similar statement of the ARO is found in the following passages taken from Fierke’s 2010 article entitled ‘Wittgenstein and International Relations Theory’:

      “Wittgenstein’s early work, in the Tractatus, informed the logical positivism of the Vienna Circle. While logical positivism per se is no longer in fashion, the picture theory of language continues to underpin assumptions about hypothesis testing within the social sciences. At the other end of the spectrum, Wittgenstein’s U-­?turn in the Philosophical Investigations (1958) gave impetus to the postmodern critique of the autonomous rational agent (Honneth 1995).

      In the middle of this spectrum, his argument that language use is action has influenced social theory more broadly (e.g. Austin 1963; Searle 1969; Berger and Luckman 1967).… The transition in [Wittgenstein’s] thought from a picture theory to a more constitutive notion of language is precisely the transition that has been underway within IR debates for the last twenty years, from the unquestioned assumption, best articulated by Waltz (1979), that theory mirrors the logic of the international system across time, to the ‘constructivist turn’, and the greater attention to cultural difference, meaning, context and processes of constitution and change (Fierke 2002).” (Fierke, 2010a: p.83-­?4)

      “Wittgenstein cannot be ‘applied’ in the way you would, for instance, apply realist or institutionalist theory. The latter are explanatory models. Wittgenstein, in his later work, provided a critique of the picture theory of language, which is often assumed in explanatory theories. Hypothesis testing rests on a picture theory of language and the idea that we can compare scientific categories with the world to see whether they correspond.” (Fierke, 2010a: p.84)

      In these passages, Fierke echoes Kratochwil’s argument that approaches to IR that were developed under the influence of ‘logical positivism’ are beholden to an outdated philosophical conception – or, in Fierke’s stronger terminology, a ‘theory’ – of language that was criticised by later Wittgenstein, according to which language supposedly “pictures” or “mirrors” reality.20

      While Kratochwil characterised such approaches to IR as focusing on the identification of “causes”, the description of “facts” and the ascertainment of “nomological regularities” (Kratochwil, 1989: p.5-­?6), Fierke characterises them as “explanatory theories” or “models” which employ “hypothesis testing” (Fierke, 2010a:p.84). Like Kratochwil, Fierke suggests that these sorts of approaches involve making the assumption that one can ‘match up’ theoretical concepts with objective entities or features of reality.

      Fierke acknowledges that contemporary social and political scholars have largely moved on from endorsing ‘logical positivism’ per se, although she argues that explanatory theoretical approaches to IR nevertheless continue largely to be underpinned by the ‘picture theory’ of language….

      Pornland – Invasion Of The Booty Snatchers

    84. Liz g says:

      Oh how much is Smallaxe missed on here…
      The man with the ability to shut shit down in one sentence..
      I so hope you are well my friend and looking after Mrs Smallaxe xxx
      Don’t be thinking I just miss ye when there’s an idiot on the main thread…. I think of you and Mrs Smallaxe often….
      And am always sending ye both my very best XXX from me and mine to you and yours X

    85. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Liz g –

      Hear hear.


    86. Marie Clark says:

      @Liz g- yes me too.

      I often think of them and hope that they are doing all right.

      I wonder what happened to my dancing partner Tinto Chiel, he’s been missing for a while as well. Hope he is okay, miss his humour,oh and Harvey of course.

    87. Cactus says:

      The Wingers are ALWAYS watching

      Time revolves as do Wingers

      It’s a beautiful thing

    88. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m open to individuals declaring themselves the opposite gender to their biological sex, but I can not support gender-ID as the basis for gaining access to sex-based rights. Allowing self-ID of sex would make a mockery of human rights.

      Natural law, human rights and women’s rights: an investigation into the foundations and limitations of appeals to women’s rights outside the law


      Since the end of the Cold War, human rights language has become the dominant discursive framework within which issues of ethics, politics and international law are debated and contested. There is a widespread acceptance of the concept of universal human rights, even although this has paradoxically occurred at a time when postmodernism has called into questions all values and practices based on appeals to universal values or norms.

      Human rights theorists and practitioners continue to debate the extent to which the concept of human rights may be ‘nonsense on stilts’ (Jeremy Bentham), a pragmatic ethical system which abandons the quest for foundations in favour of ‘sentimental education’ designed to inculcate western democratic values into societies and individuals (Richard Rorty), or a concept which is implicitly dependent upon theological perspectives associated with natural law and divine justice (Michael Perry).

      This research project examines the natural law tradition and its relationship to human rights theory and law, with a particular emphasis on questions of women’s rights. It argues that natural law theology and philosophy provide a resource for reflection on the relationship between law, rights, gender and justice, while affirming the affinity between humankind and the natural world in a way which has implications for environmental concerns and the understanding of nature….

    89. CameronB Brodie says:

      The world hasn’t gone mad but human reason is being tested. A symptom of the authoritarian capitalism, or neo-liberal totalitarianism, that is becoming the global social norm. I just hope the SNP’s researchers are making full use of the resources I’ve highlighted, and their legal advisors familiarise themselves with international legal doctrine, as they appear to be ignorant of basic facts of anti-discrimination law.

      Who ordered the civil service to drop best practice when designing the consultation?

      Gender equality

      “… [T]he advancement of gender equality is today a major goal in the member States of the Council of Europe and very weighty reasons would have to be put forward before such a difference of treatment could be regarded as compatible with the Convention … In particular, references to traditions, general assumptions or prevailing social attitudes in a particular country are insufficient justification for a difference in treatment on grounds of sex.” (Konstantin Markin v. Russia, Grand Chamber judgment of 22 March 2012, § 127)

      Article 14 (prohibition of discrimination) of the European Convention on Human Rights of 4 November 1950:

      “The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.”

      Article 1 (general prohibition of discrimination) of Protocol No. 12 to the Convention of 4 November 2000:

      “1. The enjoyment of any right set forth by law shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.

      2. No one shall be discriminated against by any public authority on any ground such as those mentioned in paragraph 1.”

    90. CameronB Brodie says:

      Forgot to sigh off there but it gives me the opportunity to remind folks that from a Scottish and N. Irish perspective, the full-English Brexit is discrimination on stilts.

      Brexitania: the psychotic fantasy of zombie, neo-liberal, neo-consevative, nationalists. Not those who voted for it, well not all of them anyway, those who paid for it.

      Jonathan Coulton – Your Brains

    91. CameronB Brodie says:

      One last one. Can we get a crack at indy now, please.

      Genomic resource centre

      Gender and Genetics
      Genetic Components of Sex and Gender

      Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

      The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps.

      More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific(4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.

      Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual.

      The Berdache in North America, the fa’afafine (Samoan for “the way of a woman”) in the Pacific, and the kathoey in Thailand are all examples of different gender categories that differ from the traditional Western division of people into males and females. Further, among certain North American native communities, gender is seen more in terms of a continuum than categories, with special acknowledgement of “two-spirited” people who encompass both masculine and feminine qualities and characteristics. It is apparent, then, that different cultures have taken different approaches to creating gender distinctions, with more or less recognition of fluidity and complexity of gender.

      onathan Coulton – That Spells DNA

    92. CameronB Brodie says:

      The cost has still to be reckoned obvs., and we’ll be the suckers if we let it engulf Scotland. I meant the individuals/parties who paid for the criminal electioneering and stuff. And the media barons who’ve been selling Euroscepticism since the 1960’s. Well, England had to define a new role in the world for itself after loosing an empire, innit?

    93. Ian Brotherhood says:

      This is noteworthy for the title alone!

      Fela Kuti, ‘Equalisation Of Trouser And Pant’ –

    94. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ian Brotherwood

      My favourite Fela piece
      “Yellow Fever”
      His blast against the Nigerian ladies who used bleaching creams to try to look more white. I did 25 years in Nigeria, mostly in a womens’ teachers college, and they looked just fine the way they were. And some.
      What great musician and band leader.

    95. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Actually I met Ginger Ginger Baker in Kano,Nigeria on his way to the studio in Lagos. Paul McCartney used it for Wings and Band On The Run

    96. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Malcolm Clark @TwisterFilm, and his comparison between gender-modification surgery and legal amputation. Why do you think I’ve already posted about the ethical and legal implications of voluntary amputation, already? 🙂

      Gender modification is definitely not a life-changing decision that children are capable of making, and it is not a decision their parents should be able to take for them. Those that suffer gender dysphoria experience a disorder between their mental and physical states. The danger of a constructavist interpretation of what sex is, is that it leads legal and medical practice to affirm disorder, rather than addressing it properly, as an incongruence of cognition. Worryingly, these are the two professions where a gender-critical, biologically grounded, perspective must remain the mainstream. Otherwise, women can kiss goodby to any ideas of further social emancipation.

      Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID)—Is the Amputation of Healthy Limbs Ethically Justified?

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      This is the ticket, this is the real intelligence. This should also prove informative about how the full-English Brexit, pisses all over the legal personhood and human rights of those living in Scotland.


      This article questions how legal personhood is constructed by law. Elective amputation is used as a way of interrogating the institutional, material and discursive relations that combine in order to suspend legal personhood. Elective amputation is introduced in terms of medical and psychological explanations. Additionally, the perspective of self-identified elective amputees who choose to share their stories through online blogs is utilized to gain a narrative sense of how these individuals understand and engage with law. In particular, the areas of disability, sexuality and rationality are used to exemplify law’s continuing commitment to normative embodiment as grounds for ascribing legal

      Elective Amputation, rationality, normativity, legal personhood, disability, sexuality

      Over to you Scottish judiciary, or are you all “ambivalent” about the full-English Brexit?

    98. CameronB Brodie says:

      I forgot to sign-off, so here’s a wee insight into the concept of “legal personality”. We all have one, not only those who support British nationalism, though the British constitution only recognises and protects those who believe Britain is ‘One Nation’, apparently.

      Book Reviews

      J. E. Nijman. The Concept of International Legal Personality, An Inquiry into the History and Theory of International Law. The Hague : T. M. C. Asser Press, 2004. Pp. 494.

      This book offers a solid and detailed inquiry into the doctrinal evolution of the concept of international legal personality (ILP). Its main purpose is to show in what socio-political context and with what legal-political aim a certain
      understanding of ILP has been advanced by a specific author or group of authors at a specific time. The concept of ILP is not only a theoretical notion, which underlies the construction of international law. It is also a political notion, a locus of change or of conservation.

      It is a locus of change when new subjects are postulated or admitted to the arena of international law; it is a locus of conservation when international law is shielded from the penetration of new subjects into its body. It is these dynamics which the book seeks, in the first place, to uncover. The keyword for the book as a whole could thus be ‘context’….

      Link Wray – Fire And Brimstone

    99. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill –


      I only ‘discovered’ Fela recently, love his work, especially how one ‘track’ can be half an hour long. And the guy’s life story is just mind-blowing, we could all learn a lot from it.


    100. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Ian Brotherhood at 7.52

      A very brave man indeed.

    101. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I didn’t do 25 years in Nigeria. Typo. I did 15 years in Nigeria. Approaching 200 million people with Lagos city at about 20 million it represents a huge problem the world is not facing.The population of West Africa as doubling every twenty years and together with climate change this is the most destablising issue we now face.

    102. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Got a beautiful piece of music from Texas,beautifully sung and beautifully backed. Going to get it onto CDs and prepared for distribution

      Here’s the words

      Ancient Home
      Can you hear, Can you hear the sounds in the distance! Voices calling with growing insistence! Listen closely and you will hear! The time for redemption is growing near.!

      Scotland’s Pride in its sons and daughters! No longer lambs for the English slaughter! Thin red lines in foreign lands! To stand and die at their commands!

      Growing whispers calling for freedom! Want no part of the United Kingdom! For the Blood is strong!
      The Heart is Highland!
      The pipes play on, We’ll make a stand!
      Let the Brits begone from this sacred land!

      Scots taking back their own ” Ancient Home.!

      No more hat in hand in our land!
      With Scotland’s resources ours command!
      No more crumbs from our own tables!
      We can’t stand alone is an English fable!

      Too long to suffer such injustice!
      Stolen lands that the Lord entrusted!
      We shall rise for those that have fallen!
      Could the English conscience be calling!

      As these voices become a roar!
      Freedoms’ call can’t be ignored!
      ‘Cause the Blood is Strong!
      The Heart is Highland!
      The Pipes play on, we’ll make a stand!
      Have the Brits begone from this Sacred Land!

      Scots taking back their own Ancient Home!
      Scots taking back their own Ancient Home!

      Can you hear, can you hear the call for freedom”

      ” Copyright Claimant: Elizabeth D. Tucker, Brooks R. Tucker! Words & Music: Elizabeth D. Tucker, 1951-, Brooks R. Tucker, 1970-.! Date of Creation: 2005

    103. Smallaxe says:

      Dave McEwan Hill,

      I saw your post above, the lyrics that you mention are in this film from 2018.

    104. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Thanks, Smallaxe.This will be widely shared

    105. Smallaxe says:

      Your welcome, Dave. 🙂

      Our beautiful Scotland;

      Feast your eyes Wingers and see what we’re fighting for!

    106. Smallaxe says:

      Solomon Burke: “None Of Us Are Free”

    107. Smallaxe says:

      Imelda May: “Johnny’s Got A Boom Boom”

    108. Smallaxe says:

      The Fureys & Davey Arthur: “When You Were Sweet Sixteen”

    109. Smallaxe says:

      Eddie Cochran: “Three Steps To Heaven”–MkqACY

    110. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Cheers Smallaxe, simply soo-perb.


    111. Liz g says:

      Hey Smallaxe
      So good to see you posting.:-)
      Hope you and Mrs Smallaxe are well… XXX

    112. Smallaxe says:

      Hi, Ian. A wee word or three from our Welsh cousins;

      Cymru: “WE ARE NOT BRITISH”

    113. Smallaxe says:

      Hi, Liz. Peace and Love to you and yours, I’m never far away just reach out!

      The Four Tops;

      I’ll be there.

    114. Smallaxe says:

      The Commitments: “Try A Little Tenderness”

      It works sometimes…if you’re lucky!

    115. Smallaxe says:

      ‘My People My People’ Goori classic by the late Chris Phillips;

    116. Smallaxe says:

      “Man of the World”: Fleetwood Mac (Peter Green)

      Shall I tell you about my life?
      No Chance!

    117. Smallaxe says:

      Wilson Pickett: “In the Midnight Hour”

    118. Thepnr says:


      You’re BACK 🙂 Here’s a bit of a rap tune for you.

    119. Smallaxe says:

      Thank’s Alex. I’ve overdone it a wee bit, bed calls but I’ll leave you in the very capable hands of…

      Rory Gallagher: “Going to my Home Town”

      Goodnight my friend.

    120. Thepnr says:


      I bid you goodnight, thanks for all the tunes tonight. You certainly livened the old place up again 🙂

    121. Dorothy Devine says:

      Smallaxe and Sybil, lovely to see you here ! Take care of you.

      And Sybil , I remain passionate about my country and any time anyone tells me I’m raving on I tell them I’m just passionate about my country – you taught me that response so Ta!

      Love to you both.

    122. Smallaxe says:

      Hi, Dorothy.

      Keep that


      Everybody needs it!

      We’ll pop back again soon.

    123. David says:

      From a ComRes poll reported in Telegraph. (Daily, not Greenock)
      4 possible UK general election scenarios. The ONLY one where Tories are likely to win is if election is held after October 31, and UK has left EU with No Deal by then. Otherwise the Tories get punished by people voting for the Brexit Party.

      Boris Johnson thinks of party not country, and has:
      NO incentive to hold a general election before Oct 31.
      NO incentive for any Withdrawal Agreement with EU.
      NO incentive to ask EU for an extension.
      We’re heading for the EU exit door.

      Poll date was from 16 July, so *maybe* it needs updating, but it is still grim reading:


    124. David says:

      Poll results highlights-
      Scenario 1: Gen Election held after UK leaves EU with No Deal:
      Con-36 Lab-29 Brx-8 Lib-15

      Scenario 2: GE before Oct 31, while UK is still in EU:
      Con-28 Lab-27 Brx-19 Lib-16

      Scenario 3: GE after extending the date of Brexit:
      Con-22 Lab-28 Brx-23 Lib-16

      Scenario 4: GE after Brexit with a Withdrawal Agreement:
      Con-26 Lab-29 Brx-18 Lib-15

      Lab and LibDem votes are steady, but the Tories only get votes from Brexiters if they deliver a hard No-Deal Brexit.

      “May you live in interesting times.” 🙁

    125. David says:

      Bobby McFerrin – Don’t Worry Be Happy

    126. Cactus says:

      Ahm in ah nanna nanna nah nah…

      Ahm in Annan, DG12, Smallaxe, fancy ah visit in the next three?

      Ahm in Scotland!!!

    127. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The union

    128. Smallaxe says:


      I’ve just seen your post (Above) as I wasn’t online last night. You’re welcome to come through for a few hours but I’m going to visit friends south of the border later this evening.

      Do you have transport? I’ll come and pick you up if you haven’t.

    129. Smallaxe says:

      Dave McEwan Hill;

      Fixed that link for you, Dave.

    130. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Thanks, Smallaxe. Useless a this sort of stuff.

    131. Smallaxe says:

      No problem, Dave.

      Just take away the (https//) bit before posting and it appears back again when you post.

      You only have to do this with youtube, everything else is ok as far as I know.

    132. Cactus says:

      Hey Smallaxe, jist catchin’ up, aye we’re here and thinking Monday afternoon suit good furra visit… we are mobile

      Have an excellent Saturday the 3rd evening everybuddy

      Now is the time to ROCK!

    133. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Well, that was a flurry of excitement when Smallaxe appeared.

      We now resume normal service i.e. torpor and doldrums…


      But here’s a crackin Stone Roses track anyway, and it’s a bit reminiscent of Smallaxe’s constant message to us all.

      ‘Love Spreads’

    134. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The Charlatans, ‘The Only One I Know’ –

    135. Thepnr says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Your last tune reminded me of a Dundee band, there not the same at all but I was reminded of them none the less LOL

    136. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      I’m just getting back into the commenting groove after my wee holiday to Campbeltown. Always a wee tad lethargic commenting after my summer sojourn.

      Hi Smallaxe – good to see your fingers active again!

      Thepnr – three Dundee tracks for you; the first featuring the legendary Jim Kelly, who played guitar on the Honeybus single “Girl of Independent Means”, then another featuring him on guitar and vocals, with one of the most famous bands in the world in Dundee.

      The last one – spot all the Dundee locations in the video…

    137. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Hi Mr B, I was off to bed but thought I’d give your links a quick listen. The opening to that first track by Honeybus was definitely Bowies Jean Genie don’t you think? Then it goes all Simon and Garfunkel on you LOL, good pick and a new one for me 🙂

      The second one, never heard that either. Sounded OK to me, surprised it didn’t make any waves back then. People can be fickle as fuck lol.

      I liked the last one the best and I’ve never heard that either, just a catchy tune and a decent video. was good 🙂

    138. hackalumpoff says:

      Shane MacGowan meets Calum Kennedy – Peat and Diesel In the Western Isles

    139. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      That riff is well known amongst us music aficionados.

      This is the track that inspired Bowie:-

      Then listen to this and compare it to “All The Young Dudes” also ‘written by’ Bowie…

    140. Thepnr says:


      That was great and brought a smile to my face, Scotland’s very own version of Shane MacGowan and the Pogues 🙂

    141. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      Now that WAS Jean Genie, I suppose there are only so many musical notes and so many tempos and so many orders they could be played and so many…

      The second one had no resemblance to all The Young Dudes for me.

      Here’s the most famous example of plagarism in the music industry and for which George Harrison had to pay out more the $1m in the 1970’s for ripping off a Chiffons song.

      Here’s the comparison a “side by side” video. You’ll know this tune.

    142. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Here is a amazing piece

    143. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      Reputation/All the young dudes…

      I find myself silently singing “All the young dudes” as a counter melody/harmony when I’m listening to “Reputation”. Jiss me, I suppose.

      RE: He’s so fine and plagiarism. I read years ago, that you can’t copywrite an arrangement. So, as far as I’m aware, composer royalties from these two tracks would go to the writers of “He’s So Fine” and “Wild World”. Cat Stevens wrote the latter.

      Disclaimer: the inclusion of the following two links in this comment in no way endorses the sexual proclivities of the artiste involved.


      Hi hackalumpoff.

      Peat and Diesel was fine!

    144. Smallaxe says:

      Hi, Cactus, I’ve just surfaced after having a late night last night.

      Early tomorrow afternoon will be fine as I’ve got an appointment with the quack in the morning. See you tomorrow!

      Jacques Dutronc: “Les cactus”;

      I have no clue as to what this means. 😎

    145. Thepnr says:

      Met an old friend today that I haven’t seen for nearly 10 years. He’s an Englishman living in Scotland arghhh!

      He never voted in the last Indyref but he will be in the next. He’s now a Yes and so is his two sons, just by doing nothing we are gaining support. We must thank the Tory party for that 🙂

    146. Thepnr says:

      I can’t believe I’ve just spent the last half hour of my life watching this LOL. It’s so boring that I became fascinated 🙂

    147. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      At the end of the weekend, can I jiss type that I am chuffed that I caught David’s hanging comment – on the 4th oldest active page?

    148. Thepnr says:


      Nope, you lost me there?

    149. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      Click on the link in my last comment, then scroll back to the preceding comment.

      Certain underbridge dwellers have a penchant for leaving an anti-indy comment as the last comment on older pages.

    150. Thepnr says:

      If you’ve read these pages before then you’ll probably know that I like the stuff that Johnny Cash did. I was surprised to find that before Kenny Rogers made this song a number one hit Johnny Cash had released it before him.

    151. Thepnr says:


      Ah, got you now. Glad to see your on the job 🙂

    152. Thepnr says:

      Here’s the Chiffons with He’s So Fine.

      There is a resemblance to George Harrison’s My Sweet Lord that anyone can hear. Who can say if it was intentional or not? Only a judge I guess and one did.

    153. Thepnr says:

      Now here’s My Sweet Lord, it’s not that much like the Chiffons song but hey, who am I to judge 🙂

      I do prefer the George Harrison song, think that’s just a familiarity thing.

    154. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      Did you catch my comment from earlier, re plagiarism?

    155. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Thepnr at 12.01

      The name Cash comes from Strathmiglo in Fife and Johnny Cash’s daughter is well aware of it at one point having acquired some historic Cash building in that area.

    156. Cactus says:

      Excellent tae rekindle wae yerguidself and the lovely missus, Smallaxe

      SO howsabout this latest Scottish independence poll… 🙂

      NOW is the time to MAKE LOTS OF NOISE about it!!

      (NB it is always the time to do SOMETHING)

    157. Thepnr says:


      I hope he remembered to play you some of his reggae tunes 🙂

      In case he forgot then here’s the one he would have played for you.

    158. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      (Repeat)Did you catch my comment from earlier, re plagiarism?

      Hi Smallaxe.

      For you, inspired by Cactus and Thepnr.

    159. Thepnr says:


      Yes I did 🙂

    160. Smallaxe says:

      Hi Cactus,

      We had a most enjoyable time yesterday it was good to see you again.

      Ziggy Marley: “Love Is My Religion”

      Hi Brian and Thepnr, keep up the good work. I notice that you’ve had a couple of good catches on the older threads, Brian. Alert reader! 🙂

    161. CameronB Brodie says:

      @The police of Humberside
      I don’t know who has been filling your heads with woke mince, but you need to start respecting the gender-critical view, if you want to remain within the limits of bounded rationality. Otherwise, your practice will tend towards totalitarian authoritarianism.

      Human Rights – Human Bodies? Some Reflections on Corporate Human Rights Distortion, The Legal Subject, Embodiment and Human Rights Theory

      Roy Orbison – A Cat Called Domino

    162. CameronB Brodie says:

      @The police of Humberside
      Stick this in your pipe and smoke it.

      Human rights for women: an argument for
      ‘deconstructive equality’


      The status of universalism has been much debated by feminists at the end of the twentieth century. Poststructuralist feminism is readily positioned in these debates as antagonistic to normative universalism. It is criticized as such: how is injustice to be judged and condemned if contestation and the openness of ungrounded universalism are the only ideals?

      This paper is a ‘sub-philosophical’ enquiry into the normative commitments to equality implicit in poststructuralist feminism and its relationship to ‘actually existing’ human rights for women as they have been re-worked by the international feminist movement. It argues that poststructuralist feminism can be used to provide support for one possible understanding of equality encoded in the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.

      It addresses feminist concerns over universal rights as androcentric and ethnocentric, arguing that extending human rights to women is compatible with poststructuralist commitments to anti-essentialism and anti-foundationalism and required by the model of ‘deconstructive equality’ implicitly shared by CEDAW and poststructuralist feminism.

      Keywords: international feminism; poststructuralist feminism; human rights; equality; ethnocentrism.

      Feminist re-workings of androcentric human rights

      ….Human rights are a means to equality for poststructuralist feminists because the strongly articulated ideal of equality as ‘de-gendering’ on which their current development is based is the version of equality that is most consistent with the anti-essentialism to which poststructuralist feminists are committed.

      Anti-essentialism involves the claim that ontologically there is nothing about sexual difference that is fixed or necessary. On the contrary, the necessary instability of sex, gender and sexuality means that, in principle, complete transformation of all these categories and the relations between them is possible. Given the post-structuralist commitment to the continual disruption of sexed identities with a view to appreciating a plurality of lived possibilities, the model of equality to which poststructuralist feminism is inclined is not the ‘difference’ model, which is premised on the idea that binary sexual difference should be celebrated.

      Nor is it a model of equality as androgyny, which (even if did not imply gender reassignment for the entire world population) would seem to suggest a limiting of lived possibilities rather than their expansion. A poststructuralist version of equality would involve rather the continual disruption of gendered practices and identities without penalty or disadvantage to any person. In other words, it would mean the transformation of social practices such that any sex, gender or sexual orientation – and poststructuralist feminists would not expect these to be binary – could be occupied by any individual was always open to contestation and change and was not discriminated against.

      This possibility, encoded in CEDAW as the ‘de-gendering’ model of equality insofar as it commits states to eliminating stereotyped gender roles, is what I propose to call ‘deconstructive equality’.3 It differs from androgyny in that ‘deconstructive equality’ does not require ignoring sexual differences. On the contrary, it requires ongoing transformation of all aspects of sex, gender and sexuality in the name of equal treatment for all individuals regardless of their personal sexual characteristics, biography or choices. (Of course, we shall have to look into the foundationalism of ‘the individual’ invoked here, and we shall do so in the following section).

      The idea of ‘deconstructive equality’ is well illustrated by problems of the application of human rights for women. If my argument is correct, the post-structuralist model of gender equality is closely related to the strategy of ‘degendering’ implicit in human rights as they are currently being developed. However, the problem of androcentrism in the application of human rights remains. The difficulty is that proving discrimination in court has generally been taken to require a male standard of equality. ‘[W]omen are forced to argue either that they are the same as men and should be treated the same, or that they are different but should be treated as if they were the same, or that they are different and should be accorded special treatment’ (Cook 1994: 11).

      The few cases that have been brought to court under CEDAW have successfully used the ‘male comparator’ test against discrimination, but it is limited in its potential. The ‘male comparator’ standard of equality ignores the biological and structural differences between the sexes and makes systematic inequality invisible. To deal with this difficulty, feminists propose a different test, currently being used in Canada: that of disadvantage. This test requires that a person show that as the member of a group they suffer disadvantage where some distinction is made that puts that group at a continued or worsening disadvantage in relation to others.

      If they can do so, as they have successfully done in the Canadian courts, there is a case of discrimination to answer. This test is preferable because it requires that judgement be made concerning women as they are currently positioned, potentially enabling far-reaching challenges to sexual hierarchy (Mahoney 1994). Although such a test looks, on the face of it, to be more appropriate to the ‘difference’ model of equality, since it requires the mobilization of women’s rights as women, it is also compatible with deconstructive equality.

      Deconstructive equality concerns the elimination of individual disadvantage that results from distinctions made on the basis of sex, gender and/or sexual differences; it does not involve ignoring or eliminating differences. The disadvantage test does not necessarily lead to deconstructive equality because, in principle, it makes possible the genuinely ‘equal but different’ political community proposed by ‘difference’ feminists, where women’s capacities, roles and concerns are as valued as men’s.

      The danger of ‘difference’ equality is that it may contribute to solidifying gender identities in ‘traditional’, if re-valued ways. However, insofar as deconstructive equality requires the re-valuing of practices currently associated with women and femininity if it is to become a practicable possibility, the ‘difference’ model of equality is potentially important as a step in the right direction.

      Moreover, the disadvantage test works against a conservative interpretation of sexual difference because it encodes the principle of individual autonomy on which deconstructive equality, and liberal human rights as such, ultimately relies. Although it may lead to judgements with far-reaching implications for other members of the group in the name of which the test is being carried out, the disadvantage test allows an individual to claim discrimination where, as an individual, they are disadvantaged because they happen to be a member of a particular group.

      Most significantly, perhaps, it allows the claim that a woman or man may be disadvantaged as an individual should she or he choose to do something that is ordinarily the preserve of the other sex. In this way, the notion of individual autonomy enables the possibility of continually contesting fixed gender identities on the grounds of sex discrimination. What this suggests is that feminists concerned with the androcentricism of human rights and persuaded that equality is an important goal of feminism should be as concerned with individual rights as with equal rights for women as a collectivity.

      Johnny Burnette – Rockabilly Boogie

    163. CameronB Brodie says:

      @The police of Humberside
      A re-fill for your pipe, I hope you’ve got a healthy pair of lungs. I’m away to to keep mind and body together. Or in other words, ma tea’s out.

      What is gender? Feminist theory and the
      sociology of human reproduction


      Feminist theory and research on the sociology of human reproduction have historically been bound together as each has developed. Yet recently sociologists of reproduction and ‘women’s health’ have lost sight of core debates in feminist theory. They still tend to work with the assumption that
      feminism is an internally coherent body of thought, despite the emergence of significant internal divisions since the mid-1980s.

      In this paper we evaluate the challenge that feminist poststructuralism poses to prior conceptualisations of gender in the context of reproductive health through a critique of sociological work in this area from the 1970s and 1980s. We conclude with a critical exploration of the new insights that might emerge from a post-structuralist ‘deconstruction’ of gender in the context of human reproduction.

      The post-structuralist critique applied to the sociology of reproduction

      From the perspective of feminist post-structuralism binaristic thinking has had a number of negative consequences for research on gender and health. These include: the universalising of women’s health and health care experience and, in some cases, the valorisation of gender differences; a preoccupation with the abnormal and the pathologisation of women’s health; the production of poorly drawn health care ‘alternatives’ and the homogenisation of the ‘mainstream’; and, finally, a focus on women rather than gender (and a consequent lack of attention to men’s health).

      The universalising of women’s experience and the valorisation of gender differences

      In summarising the dilemma of ‘modernist’ feminism, Di Stefano (1990:73) writes that ‘the choice seems to be one between a politics and epistemology of identity (sameness) or difference.’ This is an ongoing debate among feminists, for example psychologists have struggled with the consequences of the substantiation of these positions through scientific evidence (Kitzinger, 1994). More broadly, in ‘equality feminism’ identified in early work (Beauvoir, Freidan etc.) and in contemporary liberal feminist work (especially in the USA; see Wolf, 1994) there is an appeal to gender neutral humanism where a central place is given to the rational subject (Jaggar 1983, Tong 1992).

      Concern is with the particular roles and statuses that men and women inhabit. Explicitly or implicitly, women’s circumstances (which includes her health) are problematic because she is excluded from the valued social positions held by men (for example, the world of paid employment).

      In the 1970s, political agendas centred quite appropriately upon identifying barriers (particularly legal and educational) to women’s access to the public sphere. This body of thought has had a considerable influence upon research on the gendered patteming of illness (see Verbrugge 1985)’. Yet here men are still the standard against which women are defined, a position which also holds for radical feminist work, even though the latter operates within an epistemology of difference rather than identity.

      Referring to the problems of assimilation for women, Di Stefano aptly characterises the counter-appeal of radical feminism; ‘the critical activity and insight produced by the voice of the other [i.e. women] provides a visceral, tangible sense of altematives’ (1990:71). Yet, as she goes on to note, the ‘choice’ between improving women’s conditions (and, in our terms, their health) by reference to either sameness (liberal feminism) or difference (radical feminism) is a pseudo-choice since it is a choice already framed by a ‘gendered narrative of us and them’ (1990:73).

      Post-structuralist feminism ‘stands on the back of this previous work. Indeed, as Bordo notes, how ‘could we now speak of the differences that inflect gender if gender had not first been shown to make a difference?’ (1990:141). Aware of the need to keep in mind that radical feminism is not a unitary position (Hanmer 1990), we can nonetheless identify as a common theme the designation of patriarchy as the root of oppression militating against any possibility of ‘equality on men’s terms’ (Rowland and Klein 1990).

      While it is clearly recognised in most of this work that women are located differently by geography, age, class and race, and may experience oppression differently, there is simultaneously the view that women form an inherent class.
      Feminised difference is a project for the elimination of women’s oppression which is, importantly for our concern with health, built around control of the body. Women’s embodiment (as differentiated from that of men) is crucially anchored in reproduction and a given affinity with ‘nature’. The extent to which this work is imbued with essentialism is a subject of quite heated debate in feminism.

      Essentialism can be defined as a belief in a true essence ‘that is most irreducible, unchanging, and therefore constitutive of a given person or thing’ (Fuss 1989:2). Here female/male can be seen as prior to the social experience mapped onto them. Essentialism has been argued to underpin much of radical feminism through the work of such writers as Mary Daly, Andrea Dworkin, Adrienne Rich and Susan Griffin all of whom have given attention to issues of women’s health.

      The term radical feminism, of course, covers a wide spectrum of thought. (Ramazanoglu (1989) identifies it as the feminism most difficult to define because of its diversity). In its strongest form there is a celebration of women’s bodies and the capacity to nurture and create (Gatens 1992), and motherhood is celebrated (Weedon 1987). There is a sense of a pure and original femininity, a female essence outside of the social and untainted by patriarchy (Fuss 1989).

      The work of Nancy Chodorow (1978) exemplifies this. For Chodorow, a distinct self is formed out of the process of mothering which creates women as different from men through the formation of an essentially relational form of interaction with others. In these terms, women must reclaim their bodies from men. The following quote from Lipshitz illustrates this perspective; ‘women are witchlike in being able to give birth to live beings and are therefore possessors of an invisible internal substance that provokes fear because it links them to another world than that of male culture’ (1978:39). Similarly, Rich summarises her views in the following way,

      I have come to believe . . . that female biology . . . has far more radical implications than we have yet come to appreciate. Patriarchal thought has limited female biology to its own narrow specifications. The feminist vision has recoiled from female biology for these reasons; it will, I believe, come to view our physicality as a resource, rather than a destiny. In order to live a fully human life we require not only control of our bodies . . ., we must touch the unity and resonance of our physicality, our bond with the natural order, the corporeal ground of our intelligence (1992:39).

      the Wise Guyz – Jumping Record

    164. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m only posting this material, in the hope someone in the SNP will get the woke brigade telt. Their lack of understanding of diversity and equality, threatens to undermine support for the cause of Scotland’s emancipation from cultural subjugation.

      Toward a More Transformative Approach:
      The Limits of Transgender Formal Equality

      2. Critique of Transgender Sex-Stereotyping Claims

      B. Sui Generis Protections

      In light of the sex-stereotyping framework’s explicit reification of biological sex, an alternative transgender legal strategy is to argue for explicit protection for transgender people qua transgender people. Rather than shoehoming trans people into existing binary frameworks, protection against transgender discrimination as distinct from sex discrimination would acknowledge that transgender discrimination stems precisely from a challenge to dominant binary norms.59

      If trans people are explicitly embraced by antidiscrimination laws, they would no longer be legally forced into silence and could openly defy dominant gender norms through the erasure of their prior legal invisibility.60 However, the two dominant approaches to sui generis transgender protection – a “transgender” – specific class or a broader “gender identity/expression” class – nevertheless still fail to reach the underlying norms that structure and regulate the manifestation of these social categories.

      The following subsections will address the shortcomings of each of these approaches. By delineating gender normativity through an articulation of legally-protected gender deviancy, the existing dominant framework retains its dominant status through an implicit affirmation of its validity. Moreover, by focusing the discrimination inquiry on the identity status of a trans plaintiff, courts are never forced to confront the underlying hierarchical construction of deeds that constitute that identity.

    165. CameronB Brodie says:

      I forgot to sign-off again

      Mickey & Sylvia – Love is Strange

    166. CameronB Brodie says:

      As I’ve said, I’m very, very rusty, but I hope I’ve managed to link the self-ID of sex with Scotland’s constitutional crises. It all boils down to embodied rights and legal recognition, facilitated through semiotics and plain English law, obvs. 😉

      Human Rights, Sex, and Gender: Limits in Theory and Practice

      I. Conflating the Terms “Gender” and “Women”

      To the extent that we wish to acknowledge the limitations of identity categories while nevertheless deploying them strategically to advance equality-oriented rights claiming, as Suzanne Goldberg described on our panel, we need, at the very least, working definitions that are not nonsensical. We cannot move “beyond sex and gender” before arriving at the difference between sex and gender.6

      In the Committee on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women’s General Recommendation 19, for example, “gender based violence” is “violence that is directed against a woman, because she is a woman, or that
      affects women disproportionately.”7 No room is left for gendered violence that harms men, a glaring omission considering that male victims of sexual violence are routinely feminized, while their perpetrators maintain a dominant, masculinized role.

      As I have explored in detail elsewhere, the human rights cannon repeatedly conflates sex and gender, thereby limiting state accountability to acts of gender-based violence against one sex.8 Meanwhile, international criminal law, specifically in the form of the Rome Treaty establishing the International
      Criminal Court, set out to define gender for the first time in an international treaty.

      The bland and still confusing result – “two sexes, male and female, within the context of society”9 at least includes both sexes as well as social context, if only as a secondary modifier. Notably, it was women’s rights NGOs that attempted to advance a more sophisticated and still quite workable definition of gender: “socially constructed differences between men and women and the unequal power relationships that result.”10

      But human rights law fares worse than international criminal law, with gender typically assumed to be something relevant only to women and girls. This not only erases opportunities to understand gender as relative, but it prohibits the application of law to situations that do not follow traditional gender scripts. The most comprehensive and conscientious United Nations’ (UN) definition of gender I have seen is as follows:

      Gender: refers to the social attributes and opportunities associated with being male and female and the relationships between women and men and girls and boys, as well as the relations between women and those between men. These attributes, opportunities and relationships are socially constructed and are learned through socialization processes. They are context/time-specific and changeable.

      Gender determines what is expected, allowed and valued in a woman or a man in a given context. In most societies there are differences and inequalities between women and men in responsibilities assigned, activities undertaken, access to and control over resources, as well as decision-making opportunities. Gender is part of the broader socio-cultural context. Other important criteria for socio-cultural analysis include class, race, poverty level, ethnic group and age.11

      Unfortunately, this definition is currently located on the UN Women website, not in a formal instrument.

      Sam the Sham & the Pharaohs- Lil’ red riding hood

    167. CameronB Brodie says:

      Doh! There’s me forgetting relational autonomy. 😉

      How Long Will Critical Human Rights Theory Continue to Ignore Race and Gender?

    168. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Mhairi Hunter
      ?I understand the possible source of your confusion, as there is a lack of legal clarity concerning the human rights of women and the sexuality of individuals. You’re a complete melt though if you believe it possible to change sex, and a complete moron if you conflate sex with gender. Unfortunately, you would not be alone in such confusion.

      Btw, you do realise much of the drive to allow self-ID of sex, is the desire to protect homosexuals living in oppressive societies, such as Iran? In other words, self-ID of sex is largely intended as a means of subverting draconian, illiberal, law. There is no comparable need for such indirect affirmative protection for homosexuals in Scotland.

      Genes, Behavior, and the Social Environment: Moving Beyond the Nature/Nurture Debate.

      5 Sex/Gender, Race/Ethnicity, and Health


      Although the terms sex and gender are often used interchangeably, they, in fact, have distinct meanings. Sex is a classification based on biological differences – for example, differences between males and females rooted in their anatomy or physiology. By contrast, gender is a classification based on the social construction (and maintenance) of cultural distinctions between males and females. Gender refers to “a social construct regarding culture-bound conventions, roles, and behaviors for, as well as relations between and among, women and men, boys and girls” (Krieger, 2003).

      Differences in the health of males and females often reflect the simultaneous influence of both sex and gender. Not only can gender relations influence the expression of biological traits, but also sex-associated biological characteristics can contribute to amplify gender differentials in health (Krieger, 2003). The relative contributions of gender relations and sex-linked biology to health differences between males and females depend on the specific health outcome under consideration.

      In some instances, sex-linked biology is the sole determinant of a health outcome – for example gonadal digenesis among women with Turner’s syndrome (due to X-monosomy). In other instances, gender relations account substantially for observed gender differentials for a given health outcome – for example the higher prevalence of needle-stick injuries among female compared to male health care workers, which is in turn attributed to the gender segregation of the health care workforce.

      The prevalence of HIV infection through needle-stick injury is higher among female health care workers because the majority of doctors are men, the majority of nurses and phlebotomists are women, and drawing blood is relegated to nurses and phlebotomists (who are mostly women) (Ippolito et al., 1999).

    169. CameronB Brodie says:

      Legal human rights are a relatively recent social phenomena, and their current construction is far from perfect, being drawn from legal doctrine that is inherently masculine in outlook and interpretation. I still support their universal application though, they just need to be developed a bit.

      Trans-women are not women, they are trans-women. Ergo, trans-women have no automatic right to claim sex-based rights afforded to biological women for their protection against discrimination and other forms of legal and physical violence.

      Theorizing Gender in Sociolinguistics and Linguistic Anthropology


      Early sociolinguistic studies of gender often assumed that gender should be studied where it was most salient, and that gender was most salient in cross-sex interaction between potentially sexually accessible interlocutors, or same-sex interaction in gender-specific tasks. There are many problematic assumptions about gender embedded in this recommendation, including that (1) gender is closely wedded to sex, and the study of gender is closely wedded to the study of heterosexuality; (2) gender is an attribute; and (3) the study of gender is the study of individuals rather than of institutions and larger systems.

      This chapter explores each of these in turn, noting that to decide between different theories of gender is no mere theoretical exercise; it is directly linked to deciding upon political strategies for effective feminist activism. Certain assumptions about gender may be unwittingly complicit with rationalizing or even deepening existing inequalities in ways that feminist scholars need to continue to interrogate.

    170. CameronB Brodie says:

      @Mhairi Hunter
      Being either male or female (or neither), is an inescapable accident of biology. Identifying as the opposite gender to that which is socially associated with one’s biological sex, is an expression of the individual’s sexuality. Though an individual’s biological sex and their sexuality are connected, they are not the same thing. Legislating as if they are the same, would be bad, mk.

      Language, Gender, and Sexuality

    171. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry for being a space-hog again, but it really nips my bits when I see patriarchy being supported in the name of equality.

      Conway Twitty – It’s Only Make Believe

    172. CameronB Brodie says:

      Full marks to the observant who noticed me highlighting “practice theory”, as I started going full-Tonto, a good while back. 😉

      N.B. The full-English Brexit threatens to annihilate the political agency of all those living in Scotland. Even the yoons, though not the rich ones, frankly. Their relational autonomy will probably receive a boost from supporting authoritarian English nationalism.

      Chapter 49: Agency and Practice Theory

      Agency and Practice Theory

      In 1984, Sherry Ortner predicted that practice would be the key symbol of anthropology in the 1980s. Research on practice, agency, structure, and power actually filled not only the 1980s, but also the 1990s and extended into the 2000s as well. Issues of inequality, oppression, and resistance have been a staple of anthropological literature and have influenced its many theories, both before and after the 1980s. However, time, from the 1980s up to and including today, has seen a steady strengthening and thickening of agency-related theories.

      The critiques of feminism, postcolonialism, and race and ethnicity studies brought to light the many problems with earlier constructions of agency. Two main lessons were taken from these critiques. First, agency is not …

      Tami Lynn – I’m Gonna Run Away From You

    173. Marie Clark says:

      Cameron B, blimey, Conway Twitty, there’s a walk down memory lane. Thanks for that, brings back a lot of happy memories when I was just a wee lassie.

    174. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Can I just point out that a wee space for comments, is sitting there, unloved, with no comment since 18th January? A waste of a resource just pleading for academic input?


      Marie Clark’s comment, for some reason, reminded me of these, from my tiny years.

      That last one…
      We used to visit my Mum’s cousin in Glasgow regularly and she took us to a cafe in Alexandra Parade with a jukebox, where my choice was always that last one.

    175. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Revisiting Quarantine, I just watched

      again, all the way through. In my DJ days, it was always a floor-filler.

    176. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Today would have been the 145th birthday of PM John “Jock” McLellan DCM of Dunoon the most prolific composer of pipe music. He wrote “The Bloody Fields of Flanders” to which Hamish Henderson wrote Scotland’s international national anthem “The Freedom Come A’ Ye” . Here is Dick Gaughan and 5 Hand Reel’s brilliant version

    177. CameronB Brodie says:

      Marie Clark
      My pleasure, and I really am sorry for taking up so much space. I just know a bit about relevant stuff. 😉

    178. Thepnr says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      You’re not sorry, your being a complete prick. You already destroyed Off Topic and now your having another go? You and your psychobabble shite can fuck right off as far as I’m concerned because see here on Wings we seek Independence and


      All of that right now is none of our business, you are on the wrong website at this time. If you want to pose a view on Independence or play a fucking tune on Off Topic I would welcome it, the crap you have posted in the last year or two you can shove it, I doubt even YOU read it.

      Find somewhere else to post it, it is shit Cameron and people just scroll on by. Know why? It is not relevant at all to what we hope to achieve here.

    179. Thepnr says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      From me to you.

    180. CameronB Brodie says:

      You’re one to talk about getting a grip. I’ll speak with you face to face, if you don’t mind.

    181. CameronB Brodie says:

      Btw, the biopsychosocial model of health, supported by critical and feminist legal theories, as well as post-colonial theory, is not “psychobabble shite”.

      The biopsychosocial approach and global mental health: Synergies and opportunities;year=2017;volume=33;issue=4;spage=291;epage=296;aulast=Babalola

    182. Marie Clark says:

      BDTT @ 11.07, great what a piece of music can do eh? It fairly digs into the auld memory banks, but it also means that you must be aboot as auld as me.Ha ha.

      I didnae think you looked that auld when I met you and Lollysmum at Dumfries in Dock Park. By the by, do you know how Lollysmum is getting on after her accident. I see that she pops in occasionally, just wondered how she’s keeping.

      Cheers guys, thanks for the memories as Bob Hope used to sing.

    183. Arthur C says:

      Well said sir, if a bit industrial, it’s about time some stood up to CameronB Brodies babbling.

      It really does spoil my enjoyment of other posters opinions, not just in here but on all Wings threads.

      Maybe we should start a class action for all the burnt out scroll buttons.

    184. CameronB Brodie says:

      Arthur C
      So you another who wants to limit the scope of the debate to the boundaries of your understanding? Do you generally think experts, such as your GP, are full of shite?

      Critical Social Theory and Sustainable Development: The Role of Class, Capitalism and Domination in a Dialectical Analysis of Un/Sustainability

    185. CameronB Brodie says:

      How many folk here have insight into critical political and critical legal philosophy? I’m certainly not claiming I know it all, but insight into post-modern critical social theory, is definitely the sort of enlightenment the indy movement needs, IMHO. That’s what I have been trying to introduce to the discussion. MK.

      Critical Theory and Social Justice

    186. Thepnr says:

      I’m sure all the people queeing at the foodbanks or sleeping in doorways are thinking ALL the time about “post-modern critical social theory”

      In fact they have nothing better to do and it fair cheers them up, I’ll tell you that to your face too CBB.

    187. Macart says:

      Good to see you back Smallaxe.

      Been away for some time myself over the past couple of months and it’s a genuine pleasure to know you’re still paying a visit.

      All the best to you and Mrs Smallaxe. 🙂

    188. CameronB Brodie says:

      Btw, I’ve spoken with other WOS contributors who are glad to see the back of the chit-chat and tunes. You can’t please all the people all the time, but it is important to always try to foster constructive dialogue. Dugdale’s going to find it hard doing that and maintaining allegiance to the outdated principle of Parliamentary sovereignty, in that new think-tank job of hers.

      Educating for democracy
      Rolf Gollob, Peter Krapf, Wiltrud Weidinger (editors)
      Background materials on democratic citizenship
      and human rights education for teachers

    189. CameronB Brodie says:

      Don’t be a dick. This is my training, to foster sustainable democracy. This might bore the tits of you but I wouldn’t be busting my nads if I didn’t think critical theory was having an impact, somewhere.

    190. Smallaxe says:

      Hi, Macart, thank you, it’s good to see you contributing again also. I’ll be popping in now and again when I’m up to it.

      Peace and Love to you and yours, my friend.

      Freddie McGregor: “Love Makes The World Go Round”

    191. Smallaxe says:

      All in All, You’re Just Another Brick in the WALL!


    192. Thepnr says:

      “Btw, I’ve spoken with other WOS contributors who are glad to see the back of the chit-chat and tunes.

      Well, maybe just me but I think…

    193. Thepnr says:


      My son got married just a couple of months ago, a humanist conducted the ceremony and the bride wore a white dress, my son the full Scottish.

      This is the song the bride walked down the aisle too, I was very surprised. It was for her dad, nearly had me greetin 🙁

    194. Smallaxe says:

      Hi Thepnr,

      We enjoyed the visit from you and your lovely wife a few weeks ago, it was good to see you both again. Ronnie A came back the next day and we had a good conversation for a few hours.

      Give your son and his new bride our love, please. We wish them every happiness.

    195. CameronB Brodie says:

      So you’re calling me a liar now? And I had credited you with common sense.

    196. Thepnr says:

      Looking out the window and it’s dark dull and depressing, a bit like Wings gets at times. Never mind, there’s always tomorrow eh.

    197. Smallaxe says:

      Ziggy Marley And The Melody Makers: “Tomorrow People”

    198. Marie Clark says:

      Smallaxe, nice to see you managing to post again. Great stuff. I know that your health is not too good at the moment, but dinnae gon onywhaur, you’re needed for the upcoming fight.

      Look after yourself, love to you and the family.

      By the way fella’s, correct me if I’ve got this wrong, but my understanding of the reason OT was created, was to enable us to have a chit chat and play some tunes. Mibbies just me.

    199. Smallaxe says:

      Hi Marie, You’re correct, it says on the main page “Zany Comedy Relief” Off Topic!

      ANSWER TO EVERYTHING: Steak and Kidney;

      Just Devine.

    200. CameronB Brodie says:

      Marie Clark
      How can I stop people posting? I can’t, can I? How can I open minds? I apparently can’t do that either.

      Civic Education and Liberal Democracy
      Making Post-Normative Citizens in Normative Political Spaces

    201. Thepnr says:

      @Marie Clark

      The very first post on Off Topic was this:

      Paula Rose says:
      30 March, 2014 at 2:58 pm

      Look! Nice shiny new play room – time to put on some music!

      Second post was this:

      CameronB says:
      30 March, 2014 at 3:43 pm

      Hello. Meet my mate Dave. He swims like a fish. ?

      It started because people kept posting music video links on the main thread and they were embedded so they could be played there. The Rev blocked that but people when they were bored still kept posting links to music or Still Game videos ect ect whatever. So he made Off Topic.

      The thing is everybody needs a release valve, a place to chit-chat or play some music or comedy is a good thing.

    202. Marie Clark says:

      Cameron, Cameron, calm doon a wee bittie. You’re very keen to jump in on top of anybody that makes any kind of comment. I am not having a go at you.

      OT was started for a bit of fun and light relief from the MT. I don’t recall asking you to stop anybody posting what they like, that’s fine. All that several people, myself included, are trying to tell you is that you need to ease up. Who asked you to open anyone’s mind on OT. It’s maybe not the place for it.

      You know, my late father, who was a very fair minded man, always would say to me, that if others were telling me that perhaps I was wrong, to stop and take time to think about that. Could be that the others were right and maybe I was wrong.

      Cameron, I have absolutely no wish to either offend, or upset you, but perhaps before you jump on my head again, you could take a wee bit time to think about what I have said.

      By all means post your tunes and chit chat on OT, but think about keeping your more serious post for the MT.

    203. CameronB Brodie says:

      It’s good to see you posting and I wish more folk had stuff to say or contribute. Remember though, play to the whistle. I hear some mumping but I take my orders from the site owner, i.e. “Your Majesty”.

    204. Arthur C says:

      CameronB Brodie says: 9 August, 2019 at 11:08 am
      “Arthur C
      So you another who wants to limit the scope of the debate to the boundaries of your understanding? Do you generally think experts, such as your GP, are full of shite?”

      I have been to see my GP about your question. He has prescribed 6 Months in quarantine for you, cheery bye Loon.

    205. Thepnr says:


      That Steak & Kidney tune showcased Lanarkshire’s finest talent at his very best. Sung by the grandad at every Glasgow party ever since, absolute class 🙂

      I must reciprocate and the crowds are still being WOWED even now, here’s the evidence. Who’d have thunk it? LOL.

    206. CameronB Brodie says:

      Marie Clark
      Sorry if I misinterpreted you’re intentions. Your late father was correct, but I wasn’t aware OT was created for anything specific, other than off topic comment. I’ve tried to confine my comments on MTs, to material I thought relevant to MT topics. Self-ID of sex, for example, doesn’t really fit in to that discipline, though the site owner, i.e. your majesty, appears concerned about the matter. I’m trying to be lighthearted and engaging, but democratic citizenship is serious business.

      I’ve said enough. I’m not taking the hump but if folk can’t stand up for their own indy supporting opinion on WOS, how the feck are we going to get the undecided over the line?

    207. Marie Clark says:

      Cameron, not by preaching about Self-ID or sex is going to convert anyone to independence. Most folk just don’t care.

      Anyway, we’ll no fall out about it. I’ve enough going on in my life at the moment that is indeed upsetting, and I don’t need or want anymore at the moment.

      Okay, let’s just agree to disagree, and be polite to each other.

    208. Thepnr says:


      “Give your son and his new bride our love, please. We wish them every happiness.”

      Thanks for the good wishes, been a while since I watched that. In fact it’s so long ago I’m sure that you, Sybil, Karen and myself were still able to dance like that 🙂 🙂

    209. Smallaxe says:

      Hi, Cameron,

      We all try to get our message across in all sorts of different ways. My message is to all who want Scotlands Independence. Hopefully, we can attain this peacefully.

      One Love;

      “Remember though, play to the whistle.”??? I have no clue as to what that means.

    210. CameronB Brodie says:

      Marie Clark
      Don’t we all have better things to do? I don’t think the true scale of fascism that faces Scotland, in the shape of authoritarian English nationalism, has fully registered with some. I care about human rights and rational jurisprudence, so I’m doing all I can to get the word out. We won’t gain self-determination without taking care of these, which are the foundations of open, liberal, society.

      You might not see the links between sex-based human rights and Scotland’s self-determination, but please believe me the issues are connected. I’ve provided copious evidence to that fact. Obviously the issue won’t win the debate for us but it could loose vital support for the SNP. It is a matter of basic social justice and is of significant importance to the potential for development of sustainable public policy.

    211. CameronB Brodie says:

      Play to the referee. Don’t stop, play to the whistle. Full commitment yah bass. 🙂

    212. Smallaxe says:


      Whit! I can still throw some moves;

      That’s you telt!

    213. Thepnr says:

      Haha I can remember seeing that film in The State picture house in Shettleston when it first came out. Jerry Lewis not only starred in the film he wrote and directed it as well.

      Not that Nutty then?

      Anyway, I just know you were not as good a dancer as the nutty one, this was more your style you cool b’stard for sure 🙂

    214. Smallaxe says:

      Got it, Cameron.

      I’ve been fighting the Westminster establishment since 1968 and I’ve got no intentions of stopping any time soon.

    215. Smallaxe says:

      More like this, Alex.

      Dat a di way a Rastaman dances mi bredda

    216. Thepnr says:

      How much do people really know about the man on the street playing his guitar? Little I’d surmise, but do they see the talent?

    217. Thepnr says:

      So good that I had to play the original just so you’d get all the words. At least some people get it, don’t they. Not everyone goes around with their eyes shut all the time.

    218. Macart says:


      Love the song. 🙂

      Here’s a wee blast from the past that sums up the past few months for me.

    219. Thepnr says:


      Glad to see you’re still around. We all have ups and downs BUT at the end of the day Independence is worth fighting for and if we can give one and other a wee uplift or a bit more ammunition in the form of knowledge with which to take on the enemy then it has to be worth it.

      This guy supposedly begged Scotland to stay, well a minion of his on picking up a music award on his behalf in 2014 said so. Must be true then eh, though personally I’ve learned unless you hear it from the horses mouth then best taken with a pinch of salt.

      This is for all those that wouldn’t get back in the box.

      “Though nothing, nothing will keep us together. We can beat them” “And the shame was on the other side. We can be heroes.”

      You better fecking believe it.

    220. Macart says:


      Things on MT were getting a bit too stressed back in March/April. Thought it was a good time to rest up for a wee bit. DOH! Did that ever go wrong.

      Had a few work problems and a bit of a health issue over recent months. Still on the go though and slowly getting back into things. 🙂

    221. Hackalumpoff says:

      Iss there a party here tonight ?

      Here’s a wee starter from Belladrum.
      Peat And Diesels “Cò Leig A Mach Thu?” (Who Let You oot)

      To avoid the chat ffwd to 4.05

    222. Thepnr says:


      Glad to hear your getting back into things. I’ve had issues myself both with health and work. Hey don’t we all, I just think that we’re all unlucky b’stards that post on Wings LOL.

      We make the most of it though because it’s the right thing to do. There will be brighter days ahead, something we can all look forward to. You’ll like this Sam 🙂

    223. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Marie Clark at 8:37 am.

      You typed,
      “I didnae think you looked that auld when I met you and Lollysmum at Dumfries in Dock Park.”

      Look, I’m a married/separated man and, no, I’m not going to bear your children, no matter how much you flatter me. So have this early memory…


    224. Hackalumpoff says:

      Message from SWMBO.
      We’ll be having this soon if we all stick together.

    225. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Smallaxe at 3:27 pm.

      You mentioned,
      “ANSWER TO EVERYTHING: Steak and Kidney;
      Just Devine.”

      I thought I was going to get some sort of west coast food reference on that YouTube link, not the guy who was tiny bubble-obsessed.
      Onnyhoo, my brain receptor that starts linking things had already gone into overdrive, before I even listened to Sydney.

      So this food related track came to mind:-

      That then led onto another crisp-related track…

      Then the beverage element led me to this lament…

      I blame the public school system for my shortgoings.

    226. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      I think I’ve linked to this track in the past, but this is a new video interpretation of it – to me, onnyhoo.

      In DJ mode, at one-off events, like weddings, anniversaries, birthdays and so on, I delivered a preamble before playing this, explaining that it was a traditional highland ballad, which told of how the highlanders would drive their cattle down the glens to the markets in Glasgow. And told of their hopes and dreams – then I played this:-

    227. Smallaxe says:

      Hi Guys,

      All those talking politicians
      Words are easy, words are cheap
      Much cheaper than our priceless land
      But promises can disappear
      Just like writing in the sand.

      Yothu Yindi: “Treaty”

    228. Hackalumpoff says:

      Just had a call from a guy called Craig he said:
      “Have you had to walk 500 miles? Were you advised to walk 500 more? If so, you could be entitled to compensation. Call The Pro Claimers now.

    229. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      The other place is still open for business…

    230. Smallaxe says:

      The Proclaimers: “In Recognition”

      We see you!

    231. Smallaxe says:

      “Pass That Bottle”: The Devil’s Daughters AZ Rockabilly

    232. Hackalumpoff says:

      @Smallaxe, couldn’t resist

    233. Hackalumpoff says:

      Wife asked me ‘what you looking at on the computer?’…I said ‘I’m looking for some cheap flights’…She got really excited, which is unusual, as I didn’t think she liked darts.

    234. Macart says:


      You’re right. I did like it.



    235. Hackalumpoff says:

      Great, old Jim reeves tune, new version to me, even better with Zak Dingle on Keyboard, or was it this guy?

    236. Smallaxe says:

      I woke up grumpy this morning, it was my own fault I should have left her sleeping.

      For Her;

    237. Thepnr says:


      Yir missus likes the darts then. Here’s some more just for Nana.

    238. Hackalumpoff says:

      Apple have just announced it has developed a new computer chip that can store and play music in women’s breastS.

      The iTit, will cost between $499 and $1699, depending on‘speaker size’.

      This is considered to be a major breakthrough because women have always complained about men staring at their breasts and not listening to them.

    239. Hackalumpoff says:

      After being with my missus for 40 years I finally decided to tell her that I had a police record.

    240. Thepnr says:

      Fife’s finest! Meet Danny Wilson’s brother Jocky.

    241. Smallaxe says:

      Keyboard, and Jim invents twerking;

      The Doors: “Light My Fire”


    242. Smallaxe says:

      This wee guy came from Saltcoats and then went;

      “Down Under”: Colin Hay;

    243. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon 8:11pm

      Haha Cheese and Onion ya nutter 🙂

    244. Hackalumpoff says:

      What’s the difference between kinky and perverse?
      Kinky is using a feather.
      Perverse is using the whole chicken.

      We need these guys back NOW

    245. Hackalumpoff says:

      Goodnight Smallaxe thanks for coming to the party.

    246. Thepnr says:


      Some great tunes from you tonight, sleep well and we’ll catch up later. Hackalumpoff great party by the way 🙂

    247. Hackalumpoff says:

      @Thepnr goodnight, should have charged less for the tickets or should I just change my name to IRONYMAN.

    248. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not one of those who would like to see the end of chit-chat and tunes, btw. I’m not despicable, I’m inscrutable. 😉

      FU MANCHU – Hung Out To Dry

      The Yellow Peril: Dr. Fu Manchu and the Rise of Chinaphobia.

    249. CameronB Brodie says:

      The inscrutability of Fu Mancu tells us quite a lot about the power of cultural myths and cultural stereotyping, in shaping the boundaries of individual autonomy and personal sovereignty.

      Shanyn Fiske, “Modeling Masculinity: Engendering the Yellow Peril in Fu-Manchu and Thomas Burke’s Limehouse Nights”

      One for the woke-set.

      Fu Manchu – Weird Beard

    250. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, I thought I was done for the day, but it looks like the woke-set are sitting at the top table.

      Towards modest naturalization of personhood in law


      Personhood is a foundational concept for legal order. Who counts as a person in law, is to a large extent conventional. At the same time, such legal determinations rely on deep philosophical underpinnings of the arrangements of positive law.

      For centuries, such meta-legal assumptions have been including a form of juridical humanism making human interests the sole and ultimate good that the law serves. Contemporary developments in natural science, however, undermine ever more the crucial beliefs on which such humanism has been based and compel imminent revision of some core philosophical and ethical foundations of the law.

      This paper examines this phenomenon and its potential solutions. It outlines the idea of the modest naturalisation of the legal approach to personhood, as opposed to its more extreme versions, as the optimal way to reconcile scientific advancements with the ethical and pragmatic concerns that jurisprudence must also address.

      law, person, human being, naturalisation, science

    251. CameronB Brodie says:

      This should be of interest to both legal scholars persuadable to supporting independence for Scotland, as well as those concerned about the proposed changes to the GRA. I’m done now, ma tea’s out, again. Honest. 😉


      The concept of the person is widely assumed to be indispensable for making a rights claim. But a survey of the concept’s appearance in legal discourse reveals that the concept is stretched to the breaking point. Personhood stands at the center of debates as diverse as the legal status of embryos and animals to the rights and responsibilities of corporations and nations.

      This Note analyzes the evidence and argues that personhood is a cluster concept with distinct components: the biological concept of the human being, the notion of a rational agent, and unity of consciousness. This suggests that it is the component concepts – not personhood itself – that are indispensable for grounding our moral and legal intuitions about rights.

      The component concepts also promote greater systematicity and coherence in legal reasoning. The Note concludes by suggesting some implications of this view for applied legal reasoning.

      Andre Williams – Pulling Time

    252. Cactus says:

      Evenin’ Cameron, guid tae see O/T keepin’ busy, awe ra best 🙂

      Here’s some quotes from the current thread on IndyLive radio…

      NOW Playing ~ JJ SHOW:

      when the ref comes, may need to try to explain the differences between breaking up the union over leaving the EU. As I’m sure they’ll drum on and on about “if you thought leaving the EU after 46 years was bad, how about a 300+ year old union” YAWN”

      “The Muffin Man
      Hey Scots, ah guess the main difference about the two unions is that: 1) They (England) chose to LEAVE a union that remains in place. 2) Scotland will be voting Yes2 independence, which will END their one-sided union… the UK union will cease to be, their club will be closed down, the administrators called in and UK bank accounts transferred back to and for Scotland X”

      Good points mentioned above

      ‘Mon the quickening…

    253. CameronB Brodie says:

      Evenin’ Cactus. Yes the quickening. The game is definitely afoot. Which make it all the harder for me to point out that the Scottish government appears to have lost the plot, in seeking to surreptitiously re-define the legal definition of “woman”. This is the sort of thing that happens when you conflate “sex” with “gender”.

      Gender Mainstreaming Toolkit

      1. Approach to gender impact assessment

      1.1 Introduction

      Equality between women and men is a fundamental principle of European Union (EU) law that applies to all aspects of social life. The EU has adopted a two-pronged approach to gender equality, combining specific measures with gender mainstreaming.

      Policies on gender equality have been drawn up since the creation of the European Economic Community (EEC) in 1957, with the Treaty of Rome. Following the establishment of the founding treaty, this basic principle was gradually clarified and developed by several Council directives, which dealt mostly with economic perspectives including pay, employment, health and safety, maternity and parental leave, as well as other issues pertinent to work–life balance.

      None of these legal measures, however, dealt specifically with the principle of gender equality. It was only in 1996 that the European Commission itself took a dual approach to gender equality by both implementing gender mainstreaming and initiating specific measures. In February 1996, the Commission adopted a Communication on Mainstreaming in relation to policies at Community level: ‘The principle of “gender mainstreaming” consists of taking systematic account of the differences between the conditions, situations and needs of women and men in all Community policies and actions. This global, horizontal approach requires the mobilisation of all policies’ (European Commission, 1996).

      The principle of gender equality has been strengthened, notably since the 1997 Treaty of Amsterdam, by including the principle of gender mainstreaming in the EU’s founding text. Subsequently, the introduction of the Lisbon Treaty in
      2009 marked a turning point as it directly addressed the principle of gender equality, and the policies to support it, as a central element of EU policy. It emphasised the importance of eliminating all types of discrimination, including those based on sex, through the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (2000), while a declaration in relation to Article 3 of the Lisbon Treaty gave renewed attention to how gender-based violence in the EU
      threatened the integrity and dignity of women and men.

    254. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m honestly not trying to hurt our cause, but the Scottish government is making a complete back-to-front of legal reason and due process.

      Poverty and Social Impact Analysis
      Integrating Gender into Poverty and Social Impact Analysis

    255. CameronB Brodie says:

      Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to heal the world. I’m only trying to help women secure their place in open, liberal, society. Subsequently, my efforts are in line with out cause, I’d have thought.

      A review of available information on the use of impact assessment in public policy formulation and in contributing to the fulfilment of statutory duties

      1. The antecedents of equality impact assessment
      1.2 Gender based analysis in Canada

      Similar to the European experience, gender based analysis (GBA) in Canada stems from the signing of the CEDAW in 1981 and the Beijing platform for action in 1995. In 1995 the Canadian government, in its Federal Plan for Gender Equality, opted for GBA on all future policies and programmes in fulfilment of its obligations under these UN charters6. The responsibility for GBA lies within the Status of Women, a department of Canadian government charged with overseeing the implementation of gender policies across all departments and agencies (Paterson, 2010).

      In 2004 the Status for Women produced a guide: An Integrated Approach to Gender-Based Analysis in which it lists the following check-list questions:

      • Does this policy/program/trend improve the wellbeing of women/men?

      • What resources does a person need to benefit from this policy/program/ trend? Do women and men have equal access to the resources needed to benefit?

      • What is the level and type/quality of women’s and men’s participation in the policy/program/trend? Has this changed over time?

      • Who controls the decision-making processes related to this policy/program/trend?

      • Who controls/owns the resources related to this policy/program/trend?

      • Does this policy/program/trend have any unexpected negative impacts on women and/or men?

      • Does this policy/program/trend benefit men more than women (or vice versa)? If so, why?

      • Beyond the federal government, provinces and territories have also committed to the implementation of GBA, and in some instances, have government personnel dedicated to this initiative. (Hankivsky, 2012:172)

      In a critique of the Canadian approach, Eveline and Bacchi (2005) argue that the different choice of terminology represents a focus on ‘difference’ as opposed to gender
      mainstreaming where gender equality is integrated into existing policy processes. The difference approach was instituted following the Arbella Commission in 1984 (Canadian Royal Commission on Equality in Employment) (Paterson, 2010).

      However Eveline and Bacchi (ibid.) argue that, in the Canadian experience, difference has often been interpreted as neutral in terms of equality and that ‘a differences approach can and often does simply entrench the status quo’ (p.504) because it does not start from a position of unequal power relations between men and women….

      Small Faces – All Or Nothing

    256. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. TISM. Weirdos, though they appear to understand BritNats, so here’s one for blood-and-soil nationalists, such as Gordon Brown.

      TISM – All Homeboys Are Dickheads

    257. Liz g says:

      Cactus @ 11.29
      What I would have said is the main difference between the EU and the UK is that the EU has an Article 50.
      If at anytime the EU stops working for Scotland we can trigger Article 50 and leave.
      No other Country or their Governments get to interfere,they would have not a thing to say about it.
      We won’t be forcing any other Country to come with us or putting people on the island next door in any danger
      Compare with the Treaty Holyrood signed us up to 3 CENTURIES ago and trying to get rid of that!

    258. Macart says:

      Something what I writ and posted on WGD yesterday.

      “Only caught up with this last night after I got back (stooshie over the Rev’s interview). Unsurprised at the meeja take right enough.

      Onywise… There’s a long road before the next Holyrood elections and a lot of slurry to be found in Westminster politics in the meantime. Not to mention the odd twist and turn on the electoral front.

      Worth a thought for peeps like, but the meeja and their chaintuggers have been trying to drive wedges into the YES movement for quite some time. Might be that the only folk who benefit from friends having a bit of a ‘look over here, not over there’ moment are…?

      There’s a lot of frustrated people out there. There’s a lot of nervous and even scared people out there. People heartsick at the carnage brought about by Westminster’s political class.

      When talking to each other? Remember who the real bad guys are and what the YES movement is all about. We’re friends.

      All parties and no parties isn’t a serving suggestion.”

    259. CameronB Brodie says:

      English/British nationalism is a form of cultural patriarchy and Scotland the infantilised object of cultural domination.

      Karminsky Experience Inc. – Exploration

    260. Ghillie says:

      Oh how nice to see friendly faces here =)

      Macart @ 10.35 am, so well said and so needed to be said, thank you.

      Hey Cactus and Cameron B and Thepnr and Liz g and Hackalumpoff! (thank you so much for redirecting me to Nana’s Links on IndyRef2. I really do miss her being on Wings because those new articles allowed us all to discuss further topics by the time the main thread had begun to go round in circles)

      Smallaxe 🙂 Peace and Love xxx

    261. Hackalumpoff says:

      Hello Ghillie
      Nana is happy digging out her links and posting them to the new site with no hassles. We were thinking of opening a comments section so that people could discuss stuff, but so far there have not been enough requests to justify doing that.

    262. Macart says:

      Hi Ghillie

      *Waves* 🙂

    263. Dorothy Devine says:

      Bugger! What a party I missed!

      I’m listening to Gerry Rafferty singing , “get it right next time’

      and I sincerely hope we do!

    264. Macart says:

      @ Dorothy

      Pretty shocking, I know. But y’know whut?

      I tend to come here first after reading a main article these past few days. Listen to some tunes, enjoy some good written comments kinda thing. Delighted to see Smallaxe on thread again and dropping some of his links.


    265. Dorothy Devine says:

      I am delighted to have found you Sam and Smallaxe .

      I have to thank Ian Brotherhood for directing me here.

      I will continue to indulge quietly!

      Listening to Gerry Rafferty who has some fabulous songs , great band and the timbre of his voice pleases my lugs!

    266. Macart says:

      @ Dorothy

      Ian’s the real deal. 🙂

      Also? Same on the chillin’ front these days. Been a rough few months and I’m not inclined to do anything other than enjoy good company at the moment.

    267. Ghillie says:

      Hugalumff @ 9.05 pm

      Yes please!

      Comments following Nana’s links were some of the best and most informative.

      Definitely worth getting that going 🙂

    268. Ghillie says:

      Hallo Macart =)

      Waves back 🙂 Definitely not drowning =)

      Though rough waters overby. Ach, that’s a good sign! Trolls flapping aboot like mad. Beginning to feel compassion for the poor souls.

      Hallo Dorothy Divine 🙂

      Phew so much nicer here.

      Thank you for the music =) (said it before, but need my sons to show me AGAIN how to do the blue letters links thing)

      I need to get to bed! Been up looking after Altzeimery Mum and need to be up again in 5 hours!

      Cherrie bye x

    269. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Dorothy D.

      Here’s a Gerry Rafferty for you, featuring A.N.Other…

    270. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Dorothy D.

      And typing of A.N.Other, see here.

    271. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      What time will you be getting set up at the Citadel at the Castle Gate on Saturday @Ruglonian says or @ Ronnie Anderson?

      I’ll be stewarding but may be able to help depending on timings.

    272. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ruglonian.

      Chris and I should be able to get to you around 12.30ish. Wanna join the march around half way down Union Street so probably head west around 13.30. Chris has more strength and energy than me, btw.

    273. Thepnr says:


      A comments section on Nana’s links would be well used. There’s more than one topic worth discussing in her links everyday. I’d like to see such a thing.

    274. Thepnr says:

      @Lucia Daines

      The bus pass arrived today LOL

      Aberdeen sadly not doable, the missus is in Liverpool this weekend and I have the two dogs.

    275. Macart says:

      @Thepnr 9.49

      Couldn’t agree more. Tried to send Nana a ‘Hi’ through the contacts box right enough.

      If you’re reading Nana? Hope you’re keeping well.

    276. Hackalumpoff says:

      We will be in Aberdeen on Saturday so maybe discuss a comments section at the Wings stall or wherever the beer is.

      I checked the mailbox and the spam filter and there is no message from you, so Nana says try again, she replies to everyone.

    277. Thepnr says:

      Here’s Dave Stewart doing another bit of busking. Good tune too.

    278. Thepnr says:

      Hi Macart and Hackalumpoff

      As explained earlier I doubt I can make Aberdeen but nothing is impossible so who know. Yes, lets get that comments section on Nana’s Links.

      C’mon Scots Renewables look at the demand get to it LOL

    279. Thepnr says:

      One of my favourite busker tunes that have been played on Wings.

    280. Macart says:

      @ Hackalumpoff

      Cheers and will do. Try it from another computer for my next attempt. My old mouse powered laptop is just about on its last legs.

      I can sympathize… 🙁

    281. Thepnr says:

      My turn I believe for a Proclaimers tune.

    282. Dorothy Devine says:

      Hello Ghillie! You are so right , much nicer!

      BDTT, I had forgotten his start with Billy Connelly, I didn’t catch up with the Humblebums until I came down to Glasgow and there were other/better fish to fry at that time!

      So thanks for the memory jogs.

      Won’t see any of you in Aberdeen , I’ll be in Perth but gave a good day , hope the weather is kind and somebody takes lots of photos.

    283. Dorothy Devine says:

      as a p.s Brian – I think Billy Connolly’s the national anthem section is my favourite along with the Effin Bee by Matt McGinn.

      There is another which I caught on the radio some years ago and haven’t heard since about Hamlet who loved his mammy. Anyone???

    284. CameronB Brodie says:

      If you are in any doubt that Hassan is a FUD, my perspective is shaped by the Frankfurt School, which has provided an intellectual vantage-point from which to fight totalitarianism since the rise of Stalin and Hitler. Yet I am supportive of WOS. Hussan’s logic is mince.

      Thievery Corporation – Liberation Front

    285. CameronB Brodie says:

      As evidence I’m not talking mince. This is what happens when you remember you’re a bit of an anti-humanist, moral realist. Which is nice. 🙂

      Agency and Change:
      Re-evaluating Foucault’s Legacy

    286. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, I wasn’t intending on interrupting or dominating the flow.

      Groove Armada – Inside my mind (Blue Skies)

    287. Hackalumpoff says:

      Nana’s links page is now open for comments.

    288. Sarah says:

      Dorothy Devine 16th August – “Hamlet loved his mammy” is from the 2 or 3 minute condensed version of Hamlet. It is absolutely brilliant – wish I’d heard it in the 1960’s when I was “doing” Hamlet for A levels! But it’s not a musical piece.

      I still think Michael Marra’s “Hermless” would make a lovely national anthem – it was someone else’s idea and I agree.

    289. Sarah says:

      Dorothy Devine 16th August – “Hamlet loved his mammy” is from a 2 or 3 minute condensed version of Hamlet. It is absolutely brilliant – wish I’d heard it in the 1960’s when I was “doing” Hamlet for A levels! But the one I heard wasn’t a musical piece. Googling I see there are a lot of reduced versions but the one you and I heard was definitely Scottish.

      I still think Michael Marra’s “Hermless” would make a lovely national anthem – it was someone else’s idea and I agree.

    290. Michael McCabe says: JJ Gilmore-Glasgow Town

    291. Dan says:

      Ach, I’ll have to play this Easy Rider song again as Peter Fonda passed August 16th. Cannae believe I had this song in my head as we cruised up to Aberdeen on the 17th.

    292. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry if I’ve been a bit too much for some. Perhaps I value my perspective a bit too highly, but the stuff I’ve been posting is the sort of cultural morphology and legal philosophy endorsed by the Royal Town Planning Institute. It provides the tools to unlock Scotland from imprisonment, if folk have the time and capacity to learn, so I though I’d share as widely as possible. Anyway, my spud duty is over, so I’ve been trying to cram in as much as possible before I head back to Edinburgh. Apparently I live there. 🙂

      Otis Redding – Tell The Truth

    293. Thepnr says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      This is for you Cameron, Wind of Change by Scorpions.

    294. CameronB Brodie says:

      I am trying, or so I’ve been told. 🙂

      Thanks mate. 😉

    295. Thepnr says:

      Welcome back posting Michael, some good choices as usual, I stuck one on the main thread also liked Cynical Man. Cheers 🙂

    296. CameronB Brodie says:

      I certainly don’t know it all and I’m very, very rusty, but I hope I’ve managed to give folk a wee peek at the world from a postcolonial perspective. Which is nice. 😉

      Kokoroko – Abusey Junction / We out here

    297. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      In memory of a very brave man whom we lost last month. Johnny Clegg OBE. It is not many men who can say that Nelson Mandela sang and danced on the stage with him.

    298. Thepnr says:

      It’s hotting up alright, if you can’t stand the heat?

    299. Thepnr says:

      I think we’re very close. We each do our best and we’ll skoosh it 🙂

    300. Thepnr says:

      This is really cheesy, in fact it’s really wet. Still it is a Lennon/McCartney tune from Sgt Pepper so can’t be all bad.

    301. Thepnr says:

      @Lucinda Daines

      This one is specially for you xx 🙂

    302. Thepnr says:

      Some comedy relief, well I find it quite funny 🙂

    303. Dan says:

      C’mon brothers and sisters of Scotland, we don’t need that fascist groove thang.

    304. Thepnr says:


      Hey good stuff, remember it well. You might like this, I’ll play it for Ruth I’m sure she’d like it too 🙂

    305. Thepnr says:

      I wonder how they got Ringo Starr to wear the Pink suit and Paul McCartney got to wear the blue one? I guess their manager made the decision for them.

      A bit like this maybe?

    306. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Ach weel, seeing as we’re on music tonight, I’ve got to chuck these in.

      When I first came across “Star Turn”, I thought “BRILLIANT!” – a new pi$$-take.

      I bought all the singles, well into the 90s but I’ll only the links to two here. You can explore all the rest by pasting

      “Star Turn”

      into YouTube’s search bar.

      The premise was that a “singer” from the Whitley Bay Social Club had become a major artiste. When I worked with EBS Tayport in the 1980s, I had to do a trip to North Shields and, on the way back, I just had to visit Whitley Bay. It was depressing – like a November afternoon at Broughty Ferry – overcast, dull with big rollers in the harbour.

      Onnyhoo, Here are the two examples I will post here.

      This one is probably my favourite. “He’s flown up specially first class, all the way from London, with his new image”…

      Onnyhoo, I always liked the whole “Star Turn” project.

    307. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      One of these links has this following it…

    308. Thepnr says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon

      “It was depressing – like a November afternoon at Broughty Ferry”

      Haha that’s a classic, one to note for the history of Off Topic 🙂

      As for your choice of music? It was BRILLIANT LOL I’m sat here on the seetee with tapping my feet and with a grin on my face. I like Whitely Bay, stayed there a few times when working at Swan Hunter, could get a bit rough at the weekend mind. Broughty Ferry it aint, still I’d have no problem staying there again, in fact I really like it 🙂

    309. Dan says:

      Aye Alex, I like all sorts of music depending on mood.

      With all that’s going on some folk may be losing their marbles… but at least lost marbles can be put to use. This is an impressive example of what some humans can do.
      Wintergatan – Marble Machine

      Or just bang and tap away at anything that’s close by like Dario Rossi @ Speedy Market. For the techno clubbers he really gets it on when the lights dim in the Deli section, particularly at 2min 50 on what looks like a huge cheese grater!

      Rev mentioned in his recent interview this was the latest track he’d listened to. I’ve been wanting to edit this track onto a vid of one of my mountain bike hill descents as the tempo and breakdown fits perfectly to the terrain. A task I’ll need to do before I can’t make it up the hill for being over the hill…

      Public Service Broadcasting – Go!

    310. Thepnr says:


      The marble machine was a bit of fun. If you pay attention though you’ll find that it wasn’t the little steel ball bearings playing the tune it was little “plastic chimneys”?

      Speedy market 🙂

      Lat tune was good, a catchy number.

      Do you think though you could get anywhere near matching this on your mountain bike? I’ve played this video before on here pre 2014 but it’s probably not the one you might be expecting. I’m sure you’ll enjoy it all the same 🙂

    311. Thepnr says:

      This one needs no introduction. It’s funny that I liked this when it first came out but it maybe has more meaning to me now.

    312. Dan says:

      Ha ha, I saw the opening second of that mtb vid and the answer is a resounding no feckin way!
      He’s the later Danny Mac EVO 2 model with enhanced capabilities and what must be titanium knees, but watching the crazy stuff he does I do wonder if they didn’t install the brain to save weight.
      I can claim to have BMXed and wheelied around Edinburgh before he was even born though.
      The yoof of today have fancy phones and cameras to record and edit what they do. Back then we 35mm film cameras that you’d give to a mate who’d try to take snaps as you did tricks. You’d then have to save up 4 quid and wait a week to get the film developed at Boots, only to find nearly all the photos were an out of focus blur or only managed to capture the back wheel in the exposure.
      I think I’ve only got 2 decent pics of my entire BMX exploits. The best being a single handed wheelie past an Austin Rover dealership in Gorgie that had Montegos and Maestros in the showroom.
      No doubt with a better camera the footage would have been more impressive like this. (maybe)

      I’ve still got the BMX I built in 1984. Saved up my pocket money and spent it all in the Scotia BMX shop on Iona Street off Leith Walk. I understand a certain Chris Hoy used to race for their BMX team when he was a lad.

    313. Thepnr says:


      Just like Robert the Bruce eh! Try Try and Try again. I like that, you never give up or give in. That’s for losers like Ruth 🙂

    314. Thepnr says:


      If you look in again I have to say I wondered where I got it into my head the song “get by with a little help from my friends” that I played the “cheesy” Wet Wet Wet version of.

      I know now it was you song from Jo Cocker on here last week, It’s amazing how susceptible we are to outside influence LOL.

      I’ve played this song too many times on here already, I’m sure there’s a psychiatrist somewhere that has a whole chapter on me. So fuck, I’m past caring about what anybody else thinks. I’ll do what i think is that and just be myself.

    315. David says:

      My my, a popular beat combo playing music intermixed with sounds from the Apollo moon landings.
      Glad to see Public Service Broadcasting paying homage to/copying the idea used in Hawkwind’s excellent 1970s track “Uncle Sam’s on Mars”:

      Motto to live by: There is nothing new under the sun. 😉

    316. David says:

      Song for Ruth Davidson:

      Bob Calvert’s “I Resign”. Short and sweet at 27 seconds, this needs to be played every time she makes a RuthTervention in future.
      When the going gets tough, the tough resign…

    317. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Thepnr.

      You mentioned,
      “f you look in again I have to say I wondered where I got it into my head the song “get by with a little help from my friends” that I played the “cheesy” Wet Wet Wet version of.

      I know now it was you song from Jo Cocker on here last week, It’s amazing how susceptible we are to outside influence LOL.”

      I wonder if you’ve ever heard this particular choon? Kinda parodies the arrangement of the Joe Cocker version. I have it in my brain that I actually saw a performance of it on TV at the time.

    318. hackalumpoff says:

      O/T on O/T !

      It pisses me off when they try to dumb stuff down and even use the English term Injunction.The phrase is Interim Interdict!

      Here’s a yarn from the 1920s when the Tories tried to renege on their promises, sound familiar?

    319. Clapper57 says:

      To the lovely kind wingers who posted support for me on MT.

      Please do not think I cannot take feedback , negative or otherwise, I am not so UP myself that I do not know when I post overlong winded rants or when I am wrong..Lol

      However in my defence so that you don’t think I am a complete maniac Lol..I have been somewhat manic recently as my son has been going through a very bad time these past two years..and now he is going to Dublin next week for four years on a course and I find myself verging between tears and enforced distraction tactics as I worry how he will cope.

      This incessant post writing on this wonderful site with such a great bunch of peeps has been my respite and an outlet for me. I guess I sometimes come over as a feisty old bird but the truth is I am unbelievably emotional just now.

      I am sorry if I am embarrassing anyone with my honesty, it is not my intention but I really do not want any of you to think I am someone who thinks they are above criticism…trust me I know my limitations.

      So thank you so much for your kind comments of support on MT it did stop me crying because my writing on here has helped me to forget how shit things have been worrying about my son and well I am not very good at coping when things get bad.

      I love this site and I love reading the Rev’s blogs and his tweets and most of all the diverse opinions of everyone on here.

      Please note I was not crying at the criticism I got but because I knew that after getting it, in such a harsh and dismissive manner that I, personally, would find it impossible to keep posting and risk being made to feel stupid…what a big baby I am…

      All the best to everyone I shall still read your comments.


    320. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Clapper57.

      Never mind Auld Bob. He’s set in his ways but, unfortunately has never got hold of the art of explaining why he doesn’t agree with a comment, in a manner that is not insulting.

      I read all his $h!† – I’ve learned a lot from his input over the past 6 or 7 years – but he does tend to be a tad condescending (to put it kindly) towards those he considers are “wrong’.

      Just keep on posting your comments and scroll past Mr Peffers as the mood takes you.

      BTW: I liked the explanation of your username!

    321. Dan says:

      Keep on posting Clapper57. The Indy movement needs all types of folk as we progress our cause, and the more posters the merrier as it keeps the btl commentary and discussion diverse and interesting.

      Wings should have a badge “I’ve been Peffer Sprayed”.
      There probably aren’t many who post on Wings that haven’t at some time or other caught a whiff of Rebuke by Roberto Peffers.

    322. Thepnr says:


      I’ve definitely been “Peffer Sprayed” (copyright Dan) on more than one occasion. I know too how infuriating it can be.

      Regrading your son heading to Dublin, I think it will all work out. My own daughter has been at Uni in Liverpool for the last 3 years and where she lives is a bit rough to say the least LOL.

      You know hwta though she’s loving it and I’m proud of het taking care of herself. They’ve all got to grow up and make their own way. Your son will do exactly that, try not to worry.

      I hope to see you posting again, take a break for as long as you like, something we all need to do once in a while.

      Meanwhile, here’s a tune for you that I hope you might like.

    323. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      OK off-topickers.

      I don’t think I’ve linked to this before in this wee roomie.

      I only found out years later than Ian Broudie (Lightning Seeds) was one of Care. I thought it was a great single when I bought the 12″ version. I believe it still sound good.
      Onnyhoo, why has Ian Broudie been in the news in the past day or two?

      “Ian Broudie played in Liverpool’s fledgling punk scene in the 1970s (he was a member of the band Big in Japan,[1] which also featured Holly Johnson and Bill Drummond).[2] He was also a founder member of John Peel favourites Original Mirrors in the early ’80s, and was credited as a member of Bette Bright and the Illuminations on their lone album from 1981. In 1983, he recorded and wrote tracks under the name Care with vocalist Paul Simpson;[3] the duo released 3 singles, including the minor UK chart hit “Flaming Sword”.”

      That info is from:-

    324. Thepnr says:

      Sticking with classic movies scenes and Tarantino. Remeber the scene from Pulp Fiction about the gimp? This isn’t it and neither was it actually made by Tarantino.

      Still it’s a worthy effort all the same 🙂

    325. Daisy Walker says:

      Dear Clapper57,

      I too love this site, and it has been a real value for me to read the btl contributors and also ‘gather’ my own thoughts and concerns and knock them into some kind of shape to go onto paper.

      Having been on the receiving end of ‘he who I now ignore’ I find him to be a bully and an antagonistic wind up merchant.

      Look after yourself, keep your chin up, come back soon. Best wishes.

    326. SilverDarling says:


      I hope it works out.

      It sounds like your boy has got it together now – mine did everything too young and went through a bad spell too and couldn’t cope but now there is no holding him back. I still worry though. At least your boy will be be in the EU!

      I don’t think people realise how if you keep an eye on politics and stuff it permeates your life as you see the implications for you and yours everywhere. If you think folk are not seeing what you see it can get to you.

      Anyway come back when you are ready. We all need a break sometimes and I can be crabbit and take it out on folk here too. Sorry.

      Waves to everyone I have upset and slinks away…

    327. Clapper57 says:

      Hi Brian, Thepnr & Daisy…I have posted a response on MT to Mr Peffers as he is STILL attacking me and misrepresenting what I said…so..I have recopied the ‘offending’ comment…or rather comment he CHOSE to be offended by…anyway you guys are just great and Mr Brotherhood , RJS, Silverdarling and others, and you too, have made me feel 100% better… as I even began to start doubting what I wrote myself on the piggen comment Peffers was slagging…my response to him on MT will ,I am sure ,NOT please him…but what the Hell….like talking to a brick wall trying to reason with him….he’s ALWAYS right and we are bad…NOT.

      Thanks guys keep up the great posts

    328. Thepnr says:


      This calls for…


    329. Clapper57 says:

      @ Thepnr

      Love it…my favourite is Frank Zappa though…especially ‘The Muffin Man’…sorry cannot do link…me no techno techno Lol


    330. Thepnr says:


      You might like this, it’s how I feel anyway 🙂

    331. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Clapper57.

      Frank Zappa.

      I have two favourite tracks so here they are.

      The second one is a bit more awkward because the only YouTube video cuts off before “The Bullet”, the whole point of the song.
      Members of the Mothers of Invention had been in The Turtles, whose biggest hit was “Happy Together”. The whole track (on the “Live At The Fillmore East album”) leads up to “Happy Together” but the complete video appears to be unavailable.
      Thus, you have to watch link 1 then quickly watch link 2 to get the point.

      Link 1

      Link 2

      Or you could watch this but you have to read the info below the video for the context.

    332. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I’ve just spent a wee while watching videos that followed videos on YouTube. Then I got to this one…

      When they started “Waltzing Matilda”, my eyes became over lubricated. The last time that happened was when I watched this and the bagpipes came in:-

      Onnyhoo, Waltzing Matilda. Optical over lubrication.

      It was because I now associate that song with this song:-

      Yes, I’ve become a sentimental old duffer. See yooz in Dunfermline later today.

    333. Marie Clark says:

      Clapper57, I agree with the others, please keep posting.

      I suppose those of us who have children, ( mine are 40 and 38 now) understand how you feel about your son. If I told you about half the things my son did, it would make your hair curl. But, he has come out through it, and is a very sensible young man, who now runs the family business. At times my husband and I totally despaired about him, but they usually come through it at turn out quite normal like the rest of us.

      If Auld Bob upsets you, just scroll on by. His post can and have been very educational for a lot of wingers, but sometimes his replies are a bit harsh.

      Take your time and start posting again when you feel like it. Always remember the wingers are here for you. I take a break from time to time as well, with all that is going on at the moment, as I keep saying, it wid burst yer heid.

      Take care.

      PS has CamB been hammered, or is he just having a wee break as well?

    334. Clapper57 says:

      @ Marie Clark on 31/8/19 @ 10.46am

      Hi Marie, Thank you… what a sweetie you are…and liz g on MT.

      Please note Marie and others I was not ” throwing a wobbly” as someone said on MT late last night in regards to what someone else said were my “errors” being highlighted ..I was incensed that my comments were being misrepresented…Nowhere on the “offending” post did I either criticise or mention the SG or Nicola Sturgeon.

      The subsequent justification posts by the one who was so offended that he felt compelled to put me right…while at the same time totally misrepresenting my post…were even more bizarre as I seem to now be in the same category as those who constantly criticise the SNP…when if anyone has read my posts I clearly support and endorse much of what they do…

      My big MISTAKE was not doing what the wonderful Ian B said …and just scrolling past yon person’s ranting…I acted in haste and in anger…..however when one is treated in such a condescending manner…indeed in the very same style of writing of yon ‘Sensible Dave’ who took condescension to a new level when he berated wingers on here….then one feels compelled to defend one’s position.

      Unfortunately I am also ashamed that I resorted to attacks on his behaviour..past and present…Liz G did a lovely thing in that she was trying to appeal to his rational side…BUT as per…he still insisted that he was right and continued to accuse me , via my original post, of writing what I clearly DID NOT write.

      I know that the person , who it seems is the unofficial moderator , of this forum has a vast knowledge of Scottish politics and history and many on here have highlighted that very fact …but frankly I personally would prefer to acquire that knowledge via books and t’internet than be berated on a public forum and falsely accused.

      It is to this site’s detriment that “lurkers” who visit this site and read btl comments , and perhaps have valid points they may wish to make but lack the confidence to do so…they will certainly NOT be encouraged to do so when they see a certain individual berating others in a abusive and blunt manner as opposed to carefully and with tact correcting them..or dare I say it being welcoming and encouraging their presence as a new contributor …as a fellow winger and indy supporter should.

      Age should bring some kind of knowledge that sensitivity is a essential tool in communication…because we never know when we interact with others what state their lives may be in…thus we cannot weaponise our words…but must instead go canny for fear of making that individual even worse than they may already feel….the obvious exceptions being when an obvious troll needs to reap what he sows…and we get our fair share of sporadic trolls on here do we not Lol

      To all of those who showed support for me I thank you so much…what a lovely bunch of people you are…I have NOT chosen to add this comment onto MT as I know it will more than likely be attacked and once again probably be misrepresented, misunderstood and met with hostility by certain individuals…but I have chosen instead to add it onto off topic where the predominantly considerate people come to chill.

      BTW Brian D loved the Zappa tracks…thank you.

      Anyway sorry for long post but needs must…personally cannot believe such a stooshie occurred over me , as is my right, just simply making a comment on an open forum….will miss interacting with you guys…but I really do not want to EVER comment on MT again….my heart is already breaking at what is currently happening to us Scots thanks to those so and so’s at WM…so I have no masochistic desire to also feel even shittier by being wrongly accused on here of so called crimes of which I am NOT guilty of.

      Have a lovely day guys..onwards and upwards…

    335. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Thank you Brian for that. I stumbled on that rendition about four years ago ands play it regularly when I need a bit of a lift.Here it is with a different visual presentation. When the pipes come in …….

    336. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi peeps.

      Much discussion on FaceBook today, about army convoys.

      I’ll add my tuppemce worth in.

      We were on the 10.15 X26 from Dundee to Dunfermline, on Saturday morning. Around 10.30, as we were approaching St Michaels, We passed a convoy of around 6 “big trucks”, 6 large transit type vans and around 4 police vehicles.

    337. Thepnr says:

      I’m a bit cheered up with the way things have been going politically the last couple of days. Most of you know what I mean t=you’re up one day then you hit a snake and slip right back down.

      A week or so back Smallaxe played Pink Floyd – Another Brick In The wall. Always been a classic her’s a longer version I’d never heard before but it’s good.

      Must be doing something right, I think we’re taking back control at last 🙂

    338. Thepnr says:

      I might have been cheered up but that last song depressed me again lol, was a bit long I’ll admit.

      So seeking a bit more depression I settled on another Bowie number. You do know that these are songs that you just to play in order to fall asleep now don’t you?

    339. Thepnr says:

      And so to bed. I leave you with some classic Benny Hill quickies.

    340. Dan says:

      Hi Ruglonian.
      Re. Saturday. I plan to be at the North Inch in Perth from around 9am so will be available to assist with setting up gazebos and stalls should help be required.
      At previous events we have had vehicular access onto the park for a limited time to drop off kit during setting up process.
      If however that is not allowed on Saturday, then parking adjacent to the park on Charlotte Street or Rose Terrace means it is still only a short distance to move kit.
      Both those streets are in Zone 2 in relation to Perth parking charges.

      There is quite a full Indy itinerary planned in Perth over the weekend with various events and a few bands playing in some of the pubs after the march should folk wish to hang around the Fair City for a while after the march.

    341. Ruglonian says:

      Hi Dan,

      Great timing – I was going to post something about the Perth rally in the morning!

      The Wings stall volunteers will be meeting for set up at around 11am – as will my local group (YR&C) and no doubt others that are travelling up from around the Glasgow area – so it’s brilliant to know that there’s a helpful pair of hands waiting for us 🙂

      Thanks so much for the local knowledge re North Inch Park access and parking options, it’s invaluable to know in advance and will really help with our volunteer coordination (the herding cats exercise)

      Delighted to hear about the busy weekend planned too – folk really enjoy coming to visit a town or city that they might not be familiar with and getting such an incredibly warm welcome – well done you Perthers!!

      See you Saturday pal.

    342. Thepnr says:

      @Dan and Ruglonian

      Hoping to make it to Perth on Saturday too, only thing that might stop me is I’m due to become a grandad in the coming days and might have to be elsewhere.

      Anyway let’s see what happens and even if I don’t make it, I certainly hope for a great day for you and all the marchers.

    343. Dan says:

      @The people of Dundee

      Can you all set your alarms for 8am on Saturday and then lean out yer windaes and shout: “WAKE UP Brian Doonthetoon ya sleepyheid and get oot yer scratcher!”

      Seems he’s got previous for indulging in over-snoozing and missing the bus to marches… lol

      T’was good to meet up BDtt the other day (albeit with too small a drink), hope to catch up with you in Perth for another blether as there’s been some developments with “the package”…

      Lively number for the night owls.
      Heart – Barracuda

    344. Ghillie says:

      Thepnr 🙂

      How is the mum to be? And you and Mrs Thepnr, Grandparents =)

      Keep us posted!

      Very best wishes to you all.

      And special cuddles for the mummy to be (and daddy!) going through contractions xxx

    345. Dan says:

      Ok folks, a wee bit of input would be much appreciated and an actual benefit too, as it means the ideas and thoughts will come from a broader spectrum of folk.

      For a project I’m initially looking for some short straightforward or catchy wording that encapsulates the positive reasons why we want Scotland to be free to determine our own future.

      Ideally a sentence or short paragraph so it can be read, absorbed and make an impact quickly.

      I know there are thoughtful and articulate folk commenting and reading Wings, so crack on and see what you can come up with.
      Lurkers and occasional posters are most welcome to chip in too.

      Thanks in advance.

    346. Dave tewart says:

      Scotland; england’s last colony

    347. Capella says:

      @ Dan – is Scotland a country? Should countries govern themselves?

    348. Daisy Walker says:

      Dan –



      On another matter – were Perthonians, not Perthers. Jist so yi’s ken;)

    349. Daisy Walker says:


      This one is a bit long winded, however.

      The difference between a Scottish Nationalist and an English Nationalist, is that the Scottish Nationalist wants the people of Scotland to run Scotland’s affairs.

      The English Nationalist hides itself in a Union Jack, stamps the word British on it, and wants England and the English to run all the other countries, for the benefit of England first, second and last.

    350. Welsh Sion says:

      Dan @ 10:27 am

      A few thoughts from a Welsh supporter of indy:


      You were lied to in 2014.
      You are being lied to today.

      Independence – Now.


      The Ayes will have it.


      Your country – your future.
      If you don’t vote YES you’ll have neither.


      A few number-plates to play about with:

      SC 07 LND
      AYE 20
      YES 20


      Indy Scotland next year?
      Aye – Get 20:20 vision

    351. Daisy Walker says:


      a few more (what have you started!!!)




    352. Clapper57 says:

      @ Robert J Sutherland @ 4.54pm on MT

      What an absolutely cracking post.

      Be still my beating heart….sorry I am ‘lurking’ on MT…?

    353. Clapper57 says:

      @ Me @ 5.04pm

      The ‘?’ at end of my comment was actually supposed to be a winking emoji somehow ended up a question mark….Lol

    354. Smallaxe says:


      From one lurker to another, Try :then – then ) this will give you this;

      “When You’re Smiling” Dean Martin;

    355. Clapper57 says:

      @ Smallaxe @ 6.00pm

      That was lovely….thank you so much you are a sweetie.

      I come to off Topic a lot and have not seen you comment for a wee while…….take care.

      Have a lovely evening .


    356. Smallaxe says:


      You’re welcome. I’ve been taking things easy for a while and just popping into off-topic now and again.

      Have a peaceful and enjoyable evening…what’s left of it! 😉

      “Some Enchanted Evening” Perry Como;

    357. Smallaxe says:


      I put this on the main thread last year but it may still suit your purpose;

      Scotland the Brave
      Scotland the Slave
      Your Choice!

    358. Dan says:

      Thank you for responses folks, but continue to suggest ideas of you’re own or good stuff from elsewhere. I had yet another quick search through Indyposterboy’s site earlier which is packed with all sorts of great work.

      May see some of you at AUOB Perth tomorrow. Weather forecast looks good.

      A couple of fitting tunes for these times.

      Jamiroquai – Virtual Insanity

      Genesis – Land of Confusion

      It’s quite something when you realise we’ve reached a point when you actually want to be abducted by aliens…

    359. Dan says:

      Excellent timing Smallaxe! That’s a good un and came to mind earlier this afternoon when we were playing with hardware.
      Certainly one that will be added, would Sir have a certain font one would prefer?

    360. Smallaxe says:

      Hi Dan,

      Any font that suits you, suits me.

      For these times;
      Gnarls Barkley: “Crazy”

    361. Welsh Sion says:

      You probably didn’t see/hear it in MSM … but … with a defection from the Labour Party to Plaid Cymru, the National Party has now a majority in Carmarthenshire County Council – it now runs 2 Councils in Wales.


    362. Dan says:

      OK Smallaxe, I’m just back indoors after an illuminating trial and can now offer you 3 foot high fonts.

      FAO Perth AUOB attendees

      The roads around the North Inch will apparently close at 11.30am so bear that in mind.
      A friend has offered to give a few folk a lift up from the North Inch to the start of the march should they need a lift. Might be space in a few other cars too.

      Also be aware that the Crieff Rd Tescos and probably B&Q carparks near the start of the march have time restrictions so you can’t just dump your cars there as you might get one of those “contestable tickets”.
      There could be parking spaces available which will be free along the residential streets of Letham that are not far from Newhouse Rd and the start march at 7 acres park.

      I plan to be at the North Inch at 9am helping to erect stalls.

    363. Clapper57 says:

      Looks as if I have started a trend….everyone on MT going round the bend…..not something I would recommend…..but something I can fully comprehend….we all have a point we need to defend…I’m sure these fences will eventually mend….but eh by gum it’ll be alright in the end….cause your fellow true winger really is your friend….so hope the stooshie will suspend…But I’m now running outta rhymes that I’ve penned…so it’s just love and kisses that I send….

    364. Dan says:

      Evening Clapper, good to see you back.

      Tetchy on MT so building the love here in OT with Candi Staton and Groove Armada – You Got the Love

    365. Clapper57 says:

      @ Dan @ 10.49pm

      Hi Dan, how you doing.

      Yes tetchy indeed….hornet’s nest stirred for sure….glad I’m not getting stung….makes a bloody change….. Lol

      Great tune BTW….feel the love…on OT at least Lol

      God but we are The Wild Bunch indeed… are we not….yae can take away oor porridge but yae canny take away oor…whatever we don’t want you to take away Lol

      Take care

    366. Dan says:

      I’m all good, just spruced myself up for the morra, even did some ear hair topiary due to the delights of ageing… As a young’un I wondered what the heck all those Victor Kiam adverts for Remington trimmers were about on the telly… now I know.

      Aye, certainly feisty discussion on MT, was gonna nip over and chuck in a handful of Es to see if it helped! lol

      I’ve really struggled with the situation. How and what can you actually campaign for when it isn’t certain if we will or won’t be in the EU, or will or won’t have another Indyref, and if we do then why on earth would we choose that path after what we’ve seen and learnt of the dark money corruption and piss poor electoral commission in upholding adherence to their rules.
      Scotland voted to remain in the EU, but some Indy folk want out the EU.
      I’ve no idea why the SNP didn’t stick with the larger percentage mandate to remain and work away campaigning on the Indy but EU leavers on the basis that it might be the more sensible and safe option to have the protection that EU membership offers us rather than solely under the cosh of an unfettered Westminster made up of all colours of Tories that are highly unlikely to offer another chance at Indy.
      That suggestion would need work and effort to engage with those SNP Indy but EU leavers though, and as far as I can make out from various sources, they’d rather not put in the effort and instead rely on folk being exposed to and suffering under Tory austerity in the hope that will make them come round. And that’s a decision that I find rather immoral.

    367. Clapper57 says:

      @ Dan @ 12.23am on 7 Sept

      “chuck in a handful of E’s “….

      Dan there is a handful of grenades being chucked on the MT so chucking in something else like E’s might DIFFUSE the situation..Lol

      Yep…this is all certainly a conundrum….some say wait for Indy…others say go now…some say remain in the EU…some say Leave…everyone on Twitter going mental and lobbing this opinion and that opinion….tsunami of information on Twitter from peeps like Carole Cadwalladr , Ian Dunt, Jo Maugham , Peter Jukes etc etc…

      Implosion seems like the kindest finale to this….think that is why so many people are so short tempered just now because it is becoming unbearable this constant turmoil and overload of information, conflicting opinions, aggression being displayed on social media and aggression on the streets ( in England) and where there is so much frustration that no one can actually get the Brexit baddies…they seem to be evading justice…more than likely because there are dodgy links to some peeps in Tory party me thinks….names/dates/places….and Bannon ties them all together…….or some say Putin….see no one has definitive answers just a load of questions and unsubstantiated allegations….the multitude of theories cannot be tied up….hence the smugness of Banks , Farage and Wigmore.

      Who am I, but a wee pleb who believes in Indy, to question what the SNP are doing…there has to be a plan…and I am sure they know patience among supporters is wearing thin…if they start being challenged perhaps they will realise people need to know …cause this must be considered the perfect storm from which Independence can be gained…if not now then I, for one , certainly do not know when….

      We in Scotland have certainly lived through the Unionist ‘establishment’ screwing us over …and who still are…BUT….the Indy Ref was 100% never as ‘divisive’ as this in fact the division was mainly manufactured by the media and the ‘establishment’in the lead up to Indy Ref.. Brexit is THE mother of all divisive situations to befall this supposed United Kingdom….but they say it’s not over until the fat lady sings….think she might be warming her voice up….and it won’t be Rule Britannia that she’ll sing…more like ‘They’re coming to take me away ho ho hee hee ha-haaa ‘….cause we are all being driven MAAAAAAAAAAD…Lol

      As it’s 1.13am I can say Have a good day Dan .

    368. Clapper57 says:

      BTW …Does anyone know what’s happened to CameronB Brodie ?

      Not seen him post for a while…hope he is just on holiday or busy with something else .

      If You’re ‘lurking’ Cameron…all the best.

    369. Clapper57 says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood on MT 7 Sept @ 1.51am

      Hi Ian..I’m lurking on MT but sneeking in the back door on OT.

      It’s mental mental chicken oriental on MT….me brain is hurting I cannot keep up…he said..she said..they said…and we all fall down….or fall out Lol

      Aye…so many people have gone…I flounced off in the cream puff and had a wee BIGGISH tipple …then thought…Life where have you been….time to start living…lasted five minutes as you can see…as I am back on here …Lol….I am human after all….and life can also be ‘lived’ while posting on a blog..will miss your pal T***nr posting…hope he gets back…right that’ll be me chucked oot….he’s a good guy your pal.

      Have a good day sir….

    370. William Wallace says:

      /Surveys the wreckage.

      Some fkin mess you lot have been making. Aboot time everybody started tidying up 😉 🙂 MT is like a bomb site.

      Good to see you posting again Sma. I hope you are keeping as well as can be. I’ve been meaning to drop you a message but, always end up distracted with one thing or another.

      Hope all the other Aff-Topic crew are in good health and spirits too. I’m currently on a prolonged period of abstinence and trying to get a little fitter (and saner), hence my lack of drunken stupidity in the small hours on here (and in life generally).

      Keep well folks and all the best.

      Afore I go though, are there any plans in the making for a wingers night oot?

    371. K1 says:

      Thpnr is one of the stalwart, most intelligent posters on this site…you banned him cause he reacted to ‘you’ telling him to ‘watch it’…because he expressed an opinion in a tongue in cheek way, probably more banterish than ‘trolling’ as you put it.

      Fuck you for banning him…now you can ban me too. 😉

    372. William Wallace says:

      It was a bit rude of me to drop by without posting a wee tune. I thought this banger from the old raving days might be a good shout the now. 😉

    373. Ghillie says:

      Stuart does not always get it right – in his often good articles and especially btl.

      As I read it, Thepnr was sticking up for another excellent poster who was diligently challenging the site’s blogger.

      Neither, in my opinion, were trolling but debating with good content.

      Thepnr and his wife are lovely people =) I hope I can find them again on our next Edinburgh Indy march 🙂

      Ach well. Peace and Love folks xxx

    374. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Hi Clapper57 and William Wallace –

      That was some session last night. Blimey!
      Night of the Long Faces.

      Clapper, your use of ‘we all fall down’ reminded me of a properly mental video to cheer us all up:

      Limmy, Techno Nursery Rhymes –

    375. Clapper57 says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood on 7 Sept @ 11.25am

      Ian that Limmy video was hilarious….see that is what we need more of on here…and on MT….some light relief from the intensity of all of the Heavy ‘Mental’ stramash being played out on MT….oh the wonders of humanity…in times of crisis…we just go apeshit do we not….Lol

      What’s that song Glen Campbell sang in Paint your wagon again..

      I talked to the trees but they don’t listen to me….I post on Wings but they never hear me toooooooooo….or something like that….talking of wagons…they be a circling on MT…rootin tootin shootin…sticking the bootin…putting your footin…next we’ll be lootin….hopefully NOT executing…but there’s lots of refuting….but thankfully no fluting….but there is some muting….and some parachuting ( outta here)…and a hell of a lot of confuting….me bad…always

      Have a good day

    376. Macart says:

      Dear God! That seems to have been a helluva thread over on MT. Just caught up on some of it.

      Probably worth considering that most people are afraid right now. They’ve every right to be. They’ve all got their heroes and heroines too. Party political types and non party political types alike. People they’ve invested with their trust and hopes in some pretty dire times. It’s going to hurt when either are challenged and someone thinks their world is about to cave in. Some have already had their beliefs, their trust and their worldview ripped out from under them.

      It took a lot for some of them to get engaged at all and some are on their very last nerve. They’re not politicians, writers or commentators. They’re not cynical about or armoured against that world. They are, I’d guess, reluctant anoraks. (I’d count myself among that company)

      Not everyone can do, or is cut out for, the hard tactical thinking or unfankling the mysteries of the policy wonks. When talking to each other? Remember who the real bad guys are and what the YES movement is all about. We’re friends.

    377. Clapper57 says:

      With Amber Rudd now having left the Tories…let’s see if any of the Scottish Tories eventually resign…a pathetic gesture to save their necks at upcoming GE…the games up for them if polls are to be believed….so I wonder…would any of them have the brass neck …after supporting and endorsing both Brexit & NO Deal Brexit….to have us believe they would do this for their constituents benefit…..if any of them do it…then it will be the lowest stunt they could pull…..BUT not surprising….and of course should be exposed as a mere ploy of them trying to save their seat on the gravy train if elected as an Independent…or God forbid a Lib Dem Lol ………plus he/she/they could always rejoin Tories post GE at some point…

      Won’t be Ross cause he loves his boss and disnae give a toss at all of the loss to those who marked a cross against this dross but hey ho some voted for this albatross ( round their collective necks)….and they now know how TOUCHY he is when he’s on the sauce….Lol

      Saw video of ‘When my guitar gently weeps’ today with Prince, Tom Petty, Stevie Winwood…excellent…unfortunately cannot link onto here…me no techno techno more of a manual dudess Lol

    378. Michael McCabe says:

      Hi Clapper 57 hopefully this is the track you mentioned

    379. Clapper57 says:

      I’ve got Off Topic to myself….I’ve got Off Topic to myself….

      This is me talking to no one…and… I’m having…. lots of fun….think I’ll eat a sticky bun…..cause I’m a…greedy …little… hun..ny..

      I can say anything I want…and there’s no one here…to… taunt (me)…all my rhymes I’m gonna flaunt…as.. on.. this.. thread …I… haunt (no one but me)

      Everbody’s on the Main Thread… and doing in… each other’s head…but I am here instead….but soon..will.. be… off… to …bed…but first I’ll eat yummy tummy garlic bread…

      I’ve got Off Topic to myself…I’ve got Off Topic to myself…

      This is.. such… a laugh….as I speak on my… own ….behalf…I’ve just downed a full carafe….and tomorrow…when I wake up…I’ll remember… this… wee… gaffe…..and you can then all file me under.. total riff-raff…….The End of going round the bend….me bad..again…talking to myself BTW…..

    380. Clapper57 says:

      @ Michael McCabe @ 12.13am

      YES…it is Michael..thank you…absolutely brilliant guitar work from Prince..nice vocals from Tom Petty too…

      Here’s me thinking I was on me lonesome hence my little ditty at 12.43am which I must have been composing while you had already posted your comment….don’t worry I’m all outta rhymes…for tonight…that is…Lol

      Cheers Michael

    381. Clapper57 says:

      Something you WON’T see on Historywoman, Agent Pee Pee’s et al timelines on Twitter OR on given major coverage on BBC / ITV etc: ….rule for them rule for us ALWAYS

      “MP Charlie Elphicke has appeared in court to deny three counts of sexual assault.

      He was controversially readmitted to the @Conservatives prior to a confidence vote on Theresa May but when he was formally charged he was suspended again on the same day”.

      This happened last week….BUT …remember Michelle Thomson, Mark MacDonald,Alex Salmond wall to wall coverage….and for Alex Salmond in Jan 2020 it will be a free for all rampant Yoonfest….though when ‘live’ they will need to watch what they say………..

    382. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Clapper57 –

      Great to see you enjoying yourself here!

      That’s the great thing about OT, you can run about naked if you like and naebdy’s the wiser.

    383. Michael McCabe says:

      @Ian Brotherhood 3:49pm
      Aye you may say that but I could not help but get an eyeful of his Prose last night
      ???? ? ? ??????? ?

    384. Clapper57 says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood @ 3.49pm

      Hi Ian…it’s getting like me personal diary here on OT….who needs Samuel Pepys diary when you can get Clapper57’s mental one on OT….think I’ll call it ‘Lost in Off Topic’….which could also be lost in translation (always) and lost in time and space (should be)……

      I’m still checking out MT sporadically…so many opinions and points of view that I have resorted to eeny meeny miny moe to pick the ones best aligned to how I feel….what’s that Elvis song that includes the line ‘feel my temperature rising ‘…well someone is going to blow a gasket on t’other side aka MT…..they be a hardy bunch arrgh….avast me hearties and lend me yir ears arrgh…or in the case of this blog yir eyes…

      This self imposed exile is not bad you know…others who visit OT can say “shiver me timbers that old seadog Clapper be ‘aunting the off topic decks again…da bitch” and just scroll by me OFF Topic posts ( emphasis on OFF…very OFF)….or comment that they ‘ do not like the cut of my jib’…on or off topic …..but as they can’t physically see me then my jib’s cut is not visible to them…so would be better to just write..” Clapper57 you don’t half write some sh**e”….to which I concur…that would rhyme tooooooooooooo…….

      Well obvs not so much a diary as an observation manual…a manual that learns the reader nowt but how to talk and read fluent rubbish….arrgh but it be therapeutic it be….arrgh all of this pirate spiel is via the deep affiliation I ‘ave for the open seas….says no one Naval…or gazing…or indeed any Pirate …dead..alive…or even Captain Pugwash…who didn’t wash or even have a Pug……

      On MT I was drowning but on OT I am on dry land and waving…I hope…..yes I can run rampant, bare faced and naked through the OT page….cares not a jot and gives not a damn happy for others to think I’m a Bam..that rhymes alsooooooooooooooo….and they be right toooooooooo.

      Have a good evening or day depending when you read this..IF you read this Lol ( Don’t worry I am booked in for a therapy session of the Ex MT Wingers group….actually I formed it…and I’m supplying the swords and shields tooooooooooooooooo)

    385. Clapper57 says:

      @ Michael McCabe @ 6.31pm

      ” Aye you may say that but I could not help but get an eyeful of his Prose last night
      ???? ? ? ??????? ?”

      Hi Michael I am a She not a he.

      Common mistake…someone else thought I was a ‘He’ on MT …cause of my profanity….me being female means cannot swear…be obscene or have a mental turn and spout nonsense … away tae mak me man’s tea…ah know ma place..

      Have a good evening… for chr**t sake do not read my ?????????? at 6.53pm……..

    386. Clapper57 says:

      @ Michael McCabe ( my response to you @ 7.11pm)

      Sorry Michael hope you did not think I was trying to be rude..may have come over that way…not intended…yes the ‘prose’ was insane (crap) but I was little bit ( big bit) tipsy …anyway….no more I promise…..think I have abused this page enough….

      Cheers and thanks for link last night to song

    387. Dan says:

      To round off a very busy itinerary over the weekend in Perth, here is a 2 hour Hope over Fear vid filmed earlier today with Peter Bell and Tommy Sheridan.
      Interesting discussions.

    388. Welsh Sion says:


      Just another wee slogan for you:

      Declaration of Arbroath: 1320
      Declaration of Independence: 2020

    389. Dan says:

      Cheers Sion, it’s added to the pile.

      Mandela –
      May your choices reflect your hopes, not your fears

      Dan –
      1976 : Muppet show on television, ho ho ho
      2019 : Muppet show in Westminster, no no no
      ASAP : C’mon tae fuck Scotland let’s go go go!

      T’was a long but braw weekend, and nice to catch up for a few wee chats between rushing around all over the place.
      I arrived at the North Inch around 8am to find some arseholes had pushed over the portable disabled toilets during the night. FFS! Managed to commandeer a couple of traffic wardens to assist righting them and then had to clean them as the blue goo had seeped everywhere inside. Just the start you need to the day…

      Ha ha, the rain has just started now so the saying “The sun always shines on the righteous” seems to apply to us this weekend.

      Nice black and white images from Perth march.

    390. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Welsh Sion at 10.33

      The 800th anniversary of the Declaration is on 6th April so we could have our referendum on 9th April whichwoud be probably the day the Pope got it

    391. Dan says:

      @William Wallace at 2:51 am on 7th September

      Been so busy this weekend I missed your tune. You old shape chucker you! Wasn’t sure how “techno” we could go on OT.
      I actually see comparisons with the Indy movement and the whole club / house / rave scene when it burst across society in late 80s / early 90s.
      A time when AUOB meant All Under One Bassline!
      The clubbing back then broke down the classes and you had folk from all sections of society bopping and bouncing away and often into each other, but it was all love and hugs. If you cowped someone’s drink it was nae bother and rather than it kick off into a brawl, you’d probably spend the next 3 hours chatting and dancing with them. lol

    392. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      My last comment before turning in…

      Hi Dan at 1:23 am.

      You typed,
      “@William Wallace at 2:51 am on 7th September

      Been so busy this weekend I missed your tune. You old shape chucker you! Wasn’t sure how “techno” we could go on OT.”

      Techno? I’m sure I’ve linked to this in the past but the mention of “Techno” reminds me of it.
      From the classic “Tom Wilson’s ‘Tartan Techno'” CD.

    393. Michael McCabe says:

      @Clapper57 7:11and 7:48pm last night
      I rather enjoyed your Prose to be honest and was not slagging it in any way.
      I was replying to Ian B saying you can run about in here naked and no one would notice line in a jocular fashion. I do not think your reply is rude. And hopefully we will talk again in off topic. ? ? ??????? ?

    394. Dan says:


      Somewhat recharged from the weekend’s activities after a snooze and back playing with techno kit this morning.

      All the aggro on MT. Chill folks and don’t succumb to division at this time.

      The Beloved – Sweet Harmony

    395. Welsh Sion says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 1.07 am

      I’m not waiting *another* 100 years for Scottish indy! 😉

    396. dadsarmy says:

      A little threesome to keep it going thru the slow silent night of pensive waitfulness.

      And away goes trouble, down the drain.

    397. dadsarmy says:

      This isn’t half bad

      Definite notes of a few things!

    398. Clapper57 says:

      Conspiracy theories abound…they/we are all up in arms at the injustice of the current position courtesy of UKOK WM parliament politics.

      Twitter…be like repeat same old same old

      Politicians on telly…be like repeat same old same old

      Journalists ….be like repeat same old same old

      How f***ing refreshing and welcomed would it be to the public…who currently are collectively losing the will to live upon hearing same old same old….to actually hear someone announce a radically ‘different’ and defiant message and thereby clearly refusing to accept the same old same old currently being pumped out via the establishment enslaved to WM rules….

      Someone…say like a political party elected to represent a ‘specific’ policy as opposed to adopting the same old same old policies rejected by their voters at the ballot box….sure there is a group of MP’s elected in a particular country within UKOK that fit that particular bill. ?

      Perhaps…without actually saying the words…f**k this for a laugh…but enacting them…..perhaps via a bold , and considering current circumstances, campaign to show the people who elected them that there is a path that if followed could allow them respite from the neverending clusterf**k upon clusterf**k that is at play now and for the considerable future….thanks to playing by WM and THE establishment rules.

      Yeh..deep down …we all want someone to step up and say Now is the time we REALLY start to represent those who elected us …voters who rejected those other parties who they saw as same old same old….

      If not now then when ?

      Also if not those we elected to do this then who ?

      Limbo is not winning strategy for me….step up to the plate is though….just saying…..kinda feels as though this opinion would not be welcomed , by some, in the ‘inclusive’ MT community on Wings…sad…as we argue among ourselves and decry the person who runs this site ( forgetting his past achievements, via his wonderful articles, to our collective cause) we are forgetting that we could instead contact our political representative in both Holyrood and WM to present them with how and what we want to see happening …and when….I will be contacting mine today to make my points on this…in a courteous but FIRM manner….seems like a way to REALLY tell them that same old same old….is not why I elected them to represent me.

    399. Clapper57 says:

      I don’t want any foreigners coming over here committing crimes…if there’s any crimes to be committed here it’ll be by BRITISH criminals…ya get me.

      If ah beat ma partner up in another country that’s ma business and no other country is gonna prosecute me for beating up ma partner…if I did it in ma own country ah would be knighted…it’s just not fricking cricket is it.

    400. David says:

      Song for Boris, depending on whether he goes to Brussels or not:

      “I fought the law (and the law won)” -the Clash

      “Breaking the law” – Judas Priest

    401. David says:

      Boris Johnson has been hit by a ‘Cherry Bomb’ – a Joanna Cherry bomb!

      The Runaways – Cherry Bomb

    402. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Orignal version (1960) by Bobby Fuller Four. (Sonny Curtis composition)

      Similar from the Bobby Fuller Four. Buddy Holly’s “Loves Made a Fool of You”

      Though Matchbox’s version is better

      Good old Rock’n’Roll

    403. Cactus says:

      Hi all, aye apols for ma late-night ramblings last week. Ah got a bit too gallas and carried away with it. Ah’ll rein it back and tone it down a bit. It’s time to get serious, we have business to take care of with less than fifty days to go.

      I’ve got an idea.

    404. Clapper57 says:

      Met Police have dropped investigation into Banks and Farage in Vote Leave….nothing to see here, there or anywhere….

      Oops sorry Met police have dropped investigation into Banks and Farage Vote Leave once they got to the part of the investigation where it was obvious some high up pro Brexit elected politicians also involved thus to continue would be to expose them and could result in total breakdown in trust, credibility and survival of the current political establishment….so lots to see here, there and everywhere IMO.

      On the plus side someone high up in Met police awarded an honour in Theresa May’s honours list in midst of an investigation….plus side for whom ?…Them not us obvs.

      On the negative side someone high up in Met police awarded an honour in Theresa May’s honours list in midst of an investigation….negative side for whom ? …well if negative…obvs….has to be us….the plebs.

      Twas ever thus………

    405. Clapper57 says:

      Oh Dear…colour me surprised…

      Femi People’s vote champion tweeted this today :

      “I will hold you, @NicolaSturgeon & @JoSwinson personally responsible for the damage of no-deal if you give up the majority you now command because you can’t agree on who gets to be temporary PM and call an ill-timed election, when what we need NOW is a referendum ON THE DEAL”.

      At 8:12 AM – 13 Sep 2019

      Oh well SNP see how grateful they are…getting roped in with Jo Swinson’s position….they wants it..they wants it…remain uber alles…once they gets it…they will throw you, the SNP, to the Lions…as per.

      See Jo will backpedal and Femi will applaud her….Nicola Sturgeon however will be treated with the contempt that they really really think she deserves…after all is she not a ‘separatist’…meanwhile Femi appears to be temporarily forgetting WHO really IS to blame for all of this….as we predicted …us Scots are there to be used and to merely shore up THEIR battle lines….

      Obvs Femi in own personal bubble at moment and ALL of Joanne Cherry’s efforts are worth nothing to try and keep him and those other Liberal thinkers still in with a chance of remaining in EU…meanwhile the baddies are given a free ride and relegated to insignificant in Femi’s blame game….

      Fuck this for a laugh….tell Femi to GTF with his ‘holding personally responsible’ blame game and let them fight their own fight….we have Independence to win and as sure as f**k Femi will NOT help us to win that…nope…if by some remote chance UKOK was ever to remain in EU…Femi would be on the side of the baddies crying ” You won’t get in the EU” , ” What money will you use”…etc etc

      Scots should tell Femi to gtf with his ‘people’s vote’ and tell him that we will NOT vote in it…see how HIS country lets him down…then he can hold his fellow countrymen personally responsible for a NO DEAL Brexit…….

    406. Clapper57 says:

      I just noticed today that at top right hand corner of WOS page there is a header ‘Thickos’….thought this was a new thread title like OT but for the mentally challenged….like me.

      At last I thought….somewhere I could post comments among my own kind……then clicked on it….alas disappointed yet again…….

      Just need to keep posting sporadically ( on a regular basis Lol) on OT in what seems like my own personal echo space….for now…..better than the Lion’s den that is currently the MT Lol ( myself obvs as no on can hear (read) you in (OT) space…Alien I be…seemingly ).

    407. Clapper57 says:

      I wandered lonely as a……….OT poster on WOS….a line similar to Wordsworth’s ‘ I wandered lonely as a cloud’….

      Everyone has abandoned OT…some abandoned MT….Independence must be coming….makes sense…..there’s nowt queerer than fowk.

      So hubby is off to Las Vegas tomorrow with his friends.

      Is that right clapper.


      Son went to Dublin to study last week.

      Oh really Clapper.



      Really enjoyed that wee blether wae myself….and NAE arguments as well….me myself I….works for me……mind you I can only keep this up for so long…eventually even I will concede defeat and admit my billy ( bessie) nae mates status is wearing thin and must bid farewell to OT as well…..

      Feels like a Monk who has taken a vow of silence….though vow is more a vow of writing solo….me write everybody else vowed to be silent…..i.e. no response….think I might have scared away Michael McCabe wae my macho macho woMAN ranty outburst to him the other night, not intended for him but targeting some on MT….signing off now ….bed beckons.

    408. David says:

      Cheers for that video, Dave McEwan Hill, I had always assumed “I fought the law” was a Clash original.
      As for Matchbox, well I preferred the toy car version:
      “How It’s made – Matchbox cars models/toy (in 1962)” (2m32s)

      Back with the music, I remember the Stray Cats getting popular:
      “Stray Cat Strut” (1981)

    409. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi David.

      The Stray Cats took their name from the original Stray Cats – tha band featured in the two David Essex films, “That’ll Be The Day” and its sequel, “Stardust”.
      Quotes from the link below…

      “Stardust, Michael Apted’s 1974 film following the rise and fall of the Stray Cats, breaks the rules of mock-docs in numerous ways. For starters, it got itself a soundtrack album, which sold pretty well, though great tunes such as You Kept Me Waiting (written, as were all the original songs, by Dave Edmunds) hardly became ubiquitous. Secondly, the Stray Cats had their name pinched by some American rockabillies who doted on the movie. And Jim Maclaine, the film’s anti-hero, was played by a real-life pop star, David Essex.”
      “Still, the Stray Cats would have made a great British equivalent of the Monkees – they featured David Essex, Keith Moon, Paul Nicholas and future Blue Peter presenter Peter Duncan” (and Dave Edmunds on guitar).

      Here are the originals, live (from “That’ll Be The Day”):-

      Over the decades, Dave Edmunds has been greatly underrated (by the general public) as a guitarist. Watch the guitar work on this live performance from 1991.

      And it you want to explore the original, full-length (11+ mins) studio version, you can find it here:-

    410. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Ian Brotherhood.

      You mentioned on the front page, a WOS get-together on Friday, 25th October.

      I did point out to you, prior to the last one, that Saturdays were better for peeps who had a 2 hour journey to get to Glasgow, rather than trying to make it after work on a Friday.

      Fridays are not good for me and Pete – I work and Pete has a dialysis session (5 hours) every Friday, which leaves him $h@gg€d out.

      I vote for a Saturday!

    411. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Brian Doonthetoon @ 22:16,

      For me it’s much the same, Fri or Sat. I currently have another encounter with the dentist scheduled for Fri morning, so I would be in town anyway that day, but have to rattle around for a fair while in between, whereas it’s a fresh journey in on the Sat. To bring anything with me, though, Sat would be better, obvs. Each has its pluses and minuses, so FWIW I would be happy to defer to the majority preference.

    412. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Clapper57 🙂

      How are you today?

      The men folk are away, but we are here =)

      What you been up to?

      This is not me up virtuously early (daft concept) but with nocturnal stamina, up late! Been looking after my mum. End up some days all crazy round the clock. Happy to chat any time =)

      Glad to see there is a Glasgow gathering in October! Will be with you in spirit but doubt I can make it over to the West, lovely as it is! Any folk want to get together in Edinburgh?

      I really need to get off to bed. Night night folks x

    413. Clapper57 says:

      @ Ghillie @ 7.57am on 15 Sept

      Hi Ghillie, I’m fine thank you.

      How are you ?

      How’s your mum ?

      I too looked after my mum , she had osteoporosis and emphysema…appreciate different from your mum but I do understand……it’s always good to know other people genuinely care and can empathise.

      Hard, I know, to open up too much on a public forum but stay strong and know that some people on here send love and support.

      If there was an Edinburgh night out I would definitely make an effort to go, one of the reasons being that I now would be able to meet you , never been to a WOS night out before….it’s a bit scary going to meet people you have never met in person but you can get a feeling for people based on what they write on here…so I think it would be a safe space…not sure if you have been to one or not.

      My men folk are away….hubby back next Saturday….and son likes Dublin…but he’s having a few wee practical problems as has to wait for something called a PPS number so cannot get new bank a/c, part time job or new phone contract until get PPS number. Told him to ask Student Support at the college to help as he has to wait until 10 October for appointment to get PPS number..this is not his first time away from home though so he is not too traumatised with probs arising. He went to Hull University for his degree and then Glasgow for his Masters so he is experienced in living away from home….plus we paid for his tuition fees and accommodation in Dublin so he has no worries re that….bang goes our holidays for a wee while…worth it if he is happy though….so proud of him.

      Anyway please take care and hopefully we can have a few wee chinwags on here in the future….AND in person if a WOS night arranged in Edinburgh in the future.


    414. David says:

      Hello Brian Doonthetoon, I happened upon “That’ll Be The Day” once when channel-surfing, and really enjoyed it. But I seem to have totally missed “Blue Peter presenter Peter Duncan” in it. 🙂
      Will have to watch again.

      Hello Ghillie and Clapper57, there are videos on youtube from some early Wings meetups, you can watch them and be reassured that Wingers are just normal people. 🙂
      Watching helped me feel in touch with things in Scotland, even though I’m currently far away.

      From 2016, Independence Live’s Wings Over Scotland Meetup. Workshop, music, discussion & drink:

      From 2014, Friends of Wings meetup in Dundee. Likeminded people meeting in a pub to socialise, as filmed by Kevin of IndyLive:

    415. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Wings Over Invergowrie – 21/02/15. (Features an SNP MP.)

      Wings Over Invergowrie – 24/10/15. (Features an SNP councillor.)

    416. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Clapper57 @ 14:40:

      never been to a WOS night out before….it’s a bit scary going to meet people you have never met in person

      Know what you mean, I felt that before going to the previous Glasgow meet. But everyone was very friendly – it was a most cheerful and uplifting occasion. (I believe even the bar staff at Dow’s remarked upon it.) It also helps other people realise that you’re not an abstract concept but an actual real flesh-and-blood cratur just like them! =grin=

      So whatever venue suits you best, though I imagine they will all be similarly welcoming.

    417. Clapper57 says:

      @ Brian D & David

      Hi Guys many thanks for the links to WOS nights out….seem a friendly bunch….not that I doubted it.

      Take care.

      @ Robert J. Sutherland

      Hi Robert, will try to go through to Glasgow one…I can get train to Queen Street, believe Dow’s outside exit ?

      Yep always harder the first time when you meet new people, especially if they all know each other already…I’ll feel like a gatecrasher Lol… but at least I know I will have something in common with them Lol

      If not able to go to Glasgow will definitely go to next Edinburgh one.

      Take care Robert…enjoying your posts on MT.

    418. chasanderson200 says:

      Ian Brotherhood and fellow wingers – WOS night out.
      Got myself organised with transport and accomm for 25th Oct “do”. I assume the usual raffle prizes will be required (I have a bottle of something for that), as will food as per our last two get-togethers.

      See you all there.

    419. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Had a blether with Pete tonight.

      Fridays are out for him due to dialysis. The earliest bus me and Chris could get would be 18.15, in Glasgow at the back of eight. We’d only have an hour or so at a get-together before having to leave for the bus back to Dundee.

      Seems a tad pointless.

      So a song…

    420. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      A lot of Wingers are going to be in Edinburgh on 6th October for the march/rally.

      Could it be an idea to assign the Alexander Graham Bell as the designated venue for a Wings get-together in the evening?

      I believe this was the venue for the last Edinburgh meet, organised (I think) by Tam Jardine.

    421. Ghillie says:

      Hi Brian Doonthetoon =)

      My sons and I met you way back at the gathering in George Street =)

      Wee alert, I think the Edinburgh march is Saturday 5th October.

      Last march we finished up with a lovely bunch of folk (waves to Thepnr 🙂 )in Deacon Brodie’s and then later made our to a pub by Waverly for supper so missed Tam’s gathering.

      But will happily herd folk to where most folk will be later on the 5th.

      Not far away now 🙂

    422. Ghillie says:

      Argh, just reread your comment.

      You said ‘I believe that the AGB was the venue for the last Edinburgh MEET’ not MARCH! Sorry!!!

      Sloppy reading.

      Yes, it would be good to plan a place for Wingers to meet up after the march.

      Son just said he thinks it will be a different route finishing in the Meadows. Will need to be sure of all that before we set off in the wrong direction!!

    423. Clapper57 says:

      So it appears that the Lib Dems are THE nominated official saviours to the Brexit solution…the Remainers champions.

      Femi on board as are many other other pundits ( political and non political) who tweet incessantly on Brexit and support Remain and now see Lib Dems as the MOST remain party in UKOK…why even Jo Maugham …yes THE Jo Maugham QC..who tweeted this :

      “The unadorned truth is that the only certain way to take No Deal off the table is the ‘revoke’ policy of the @LibDems”.

      1:01 AM – 16 Sep 2019

      Correct me if I am wrong but I am sure Angus B MacNeil SNP was stating this in HOC as were other SNP MP’s during many Brexit debates in HOC…..however as per …ignoring the SNP is indeed widespread ..not just by leavers but REMAINERS too.

      Why ?

      Well obvs because they want England saved from Brexit and the Lib Dems are a UKOK party…they are all happy for Nicola to talk and support them at People’s Vote Rally in London, for Joanna Cherry’s support via legal challenges and Scots to be willing to vote in any second ‘people’s vote’ that they were promoting and advocating as a solution……but there it stops… SNP can be on side but never ever be given the LEADING role or acknowledged as the saviours…nope that accolade MUST be given to a UKOK party…Lib Dem policies? who cares..they are Pro Remain and that is, in the ‘Liberal’ minded remainers heads, what defines them as the party we ALL should apparently vote for in the next GE.

      However they do this while happily ignoring the political history on how the Lib Dems voted and acted as part of the Tory coalition…and also , as has been highlighted today via Twitter peeps, the Lib Dem promoting in the past the UKOK having a EU referendum…

      So you see there are two sides to hypocrisy and denial…not just Leavers but it would appear remainers too suffer from selective arguments that side with their reasoning….these advocates for remain care not a jot for Scots getting independence, that is an irritant and distraction to their quest to remain ( England to remain) in EU….and they will all happily endorse Edna Rennie’s logic and undemocratic reasoning of rules for us ( Lib Dems) and rules for them (SNP) in how to win a mandate to justify achieving goal.

      But as we all predicted a long time ago…we, the Scots, are only useful in this brexit war if we get on board with what THEY want…once they get what THEY want it will be business as usual…and that will be them using the same arguments and same faux love bombs that they used pre 2014….AND just as they are using the Lib Dems as the champions for remaining in the EU they will also use them as the champions for Scotland to remain in the UK.

      This IS the stage we are at…and sadly some people in Scotland will vote for the Lib Dems too in next GE….and sadly the future will expose them all, yet again, to why one should always always remember ‘Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me’…..but sadly people forgo this because Brexit has consciously eliminated all of their previous memories and replaced them with an obsessive compulsion to choose a party that has shamelessly jumped on a Remain bandwagon to gain votes and power ……for this there is no distinction between them, the Liberal Dems, and the Brexit party other than the choice of sides they are on…..both are conning people and the conned are willing to be conned to achieve what they want…Leave and remain.

      Scottish Independence….well THEY just want it to go away and for us to SHUP UP about it…. because it is not advancing or winning THEIR Brexit fight , THEIR Brexit salvation, THEIR Brexit solution and THEIR Brexit UKOK ultimately remaining in the EU.

      Twas ever thus and will forever be …not so much the penny will drop for some….because that penny dropped a long time before 2016 EU ref for many of us….hopefully more Scots will also realise this before it is too late….SCOTLAND HAS A CHOICE AND A WAY OUT…if and only if Scots choose to vote for Independence and seek to remain in EU…simples !

    424. Ghillie says:

      Hey there Clapper57 ! Hallooo =)

      The Wings gatherings are really nice. Been to two and met up again with folk after the last march. Got photies with Cactus outside our Parliament 🙂 Met loads of old friends on the Hollyrood field, and then more up the High Street.

      Really friendly folk who are so happy to meet and welcome new faces,(but known from btl!)

      Hope you are enjoying the peace while your husband is away Stateside. Hope you get a nice trip soon too!

      What a hassle it sounds for your son getting all that stuff organised! The degree will be the easy bit!

      Oh I am sorry to hear about your Mum. It is so hard that those we love can suffer in any way at all. My Mum has alzheimers. It is a great sadness and I miss some kind of lost bits of being with my Mum so much. We really were best friends throughout my life. But there are times that feel like almost normal between us. And I am so greatful that apart from this Mum is keeping pretty well. I am with Mum most days and doing my best to keep her happy and well. I know it won’t be forever and I know that everything I can do now really counts =)

      And Wingers keep me reading and thinking and engaging =)

      So THANKYOU everybody 🙂 xxx

      Oh and thankyou for the music too =)

    425. Ghillie says:

      So true Clapper57.

      Depressing but true.

      I hold Jo Swinson in very very low regard. And Edna Rennie is a very bad joke.

      Though if Red Morningside return their votes to their natural Libdem choice then that could seriously damage Labour,s Ian Murray.

      Some folk ARE beginning to see through it all and could turn to the light side 🙂

      I’ve got to go just now but will speak again soon =)

    426. Clapper57 says:

      Ode to Liberal Democrats :

      Ah to be a Liberal democrat..led by a female autocrat..whose message has now fallen flat..sadly lacking in the skills of a diplomat..with more manoeuvres than an morals akin to an alleycat..expecting others to act like their doormat..

      With a leader who is clearly a high hat..she thinks she’s an aristocrat..and who is clearly endorsing a Brexit coup d’état..oblivious to the obvious Brexit caveat..and the result she has cherry pick(ed) at…in her quest to stay on as a fat cat.

      Her branch manager is another polecat..self assumed power when he’s only a sprat..thinks he’s playing tit for tat..the political gutter his natural the life out of Scots like a vampire bat..truth is he’s just far too easy to laugh at.

      Their politicians hoard rumours like a pack rat..then unleash them to spread malicious chit chat..then when their exposed they act like a brat..but with all of the lies that they have spat..people like us know we’re right to react..and to call out their slurs we need to stop them behaving like a political love rat.

      Cannot see much hope for oor Jo…really think she needs to go…don’t think that’ll be too much of a blow..cause everything she says is just for show..something we on here do surely know..she’s hardly a political dynamo..with her quest on referendums to overthrow..a silly stunt for oor ‘liberal’ sloppy Jo(e)..not a plan one expects from a self appointed political aficionado..more like,politically, an act of going full commando..hopefully she’ll come unstuck and end up on skid her own sword and crooked manifesto..and then it’ll be bye bye to this illiberal Jo..and once again she’ll revert to just being a (political) carrion crow….Ho Ho Ho.

      A Love poem by a frustrated voter…who is obviously not a Lib Dem promoter.

    427. Brian Doonthetoon says:


      “A lot of Wingers are going to be in Edinburgh on 5th October for the march/rally.”

      My mistook!

    428. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Clapper57 @ 23:17 (15.Sep),

      Thanks for those kind words,

      You’ll have no problem finding the venue, it couldn’t be closer unless it was actually in the station itself! The station is something of a building site at the moment, but if you stand with your back to the platforms and look onto the magnificent new “windae”, the exit is on your right and Dow’s is but a hop and a skip across the wee street outside, so it’s easy-peasy.

      (Things may have improved of late, but for a while you would have had more chance of being rained upon while going through the exit than you would have crossing the road outside! =grin= But I digress…)

      Anyway, it should be a great opportunity to meet up with lots of friendly chatty folk, so I hope you can make it…

    429. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @BDTT –

      Just saw your comment on the MT.

      Sorry I haven’t been responsive – a lot of family-related business going on right now.

      Bummer if the Friday doesn’t suit. Apologies. But it was the only week-end date available at the venue and I honestly don’t know of any others which could’ve taken us, especially with it being so ckoe to the ‘office party’ season.


    430. Clapper57 says:

      Jo Swinson appears to be the Monica Lennon of the Lib Dems…when she tweeted the other day re the Cherry Case of how Lib Dems …and HER TOO…fought this….pity then for her that this is not called the #SwinsonCase or #LibDemSwinsonTooCase.

      She tweeted on 11 Sept the following :

      “Scottish judges have found in favour of 75 MPs (including me and other @LibDems.) We argued that Boris Johnson’s Parliament shutdown is illegal, and designed to stifle parliamentary debate and action on Brexit”.

      ” WE ARGUED”….inference that the WE is actually THEY the Lib Dems argued….very cleverly worded to give impression that twas the Lib Dems driving this ….with other MP’s …say like Joanna Cherry …via Cherry case perhaps….though Joanna lumped in as one of the 75…with NO acknowledgement re her, Joanna’s, major involvement in the case.

      Oldest trick in the book…in fact one that Trump himself has used…. to appear take sole credit for the work of others…there really is no end to how low they are prepared to descend in order to gain power….fortunately clever wording via a tweet does not alter the fact that there are many who are following this case who are very aware WHO key player is in the……….#Cherrycase.

      #MeToo now seemingly adopted by Jo Swinson to utilise for her own self promotion ….unfortunately for her the other cause who use this hashtag do so to promote a worthy campaign…where as Ms Swinson seems to use it to promote her won political ambition…which pretty much exposes her as the serial bandwagon hitchhiker that she is……wherever there is a ‘win’ to be had against Brexit the Lib Dems via Jo Swinson will surely promote that THEY are seen as the main protagonists that achieved this.

      Cheats as well as Liars…who knew…well us obvs.

    431. Clapper57 says:

      @ Me @ 2,39pm

      * “her won political ambition”…should be ” her OWN political ambition”

    432. Clapper57 says:

      Jo ‘Scottish seat’ Swinson…ambition… to be the next PM.

      Policy…revoke Article 50 post ‘HER’ election win…hmm

      Policy…Surely she must also reverse or ‘revoke’ EVEL..if she is to be ‘allowed’ to be involved in English only matters in HOC..hmm….wee Edna Rennie will INSIST in Federalism being the solution…to ensure England STILL over represented in comparison to Scotland….

      Wow she is going to go down a storm with English brexiteers..think they, the English brexiteers and indeed a lot of English people who argue they are not represented properly in comparison to those nations with devolved governments, will find it very hard to distinguish difference between Jo the Scot and Nicola the Scot. In their eyes it will be same old same old….with the Scottish tail wagging the English Dog.

      This will not end well …on the plus side…her being PM is indeed strictly for the birds….for the birds only…and she is a bird that likes to indulge in this fantasy…her being a ‘democrat’ who displays a very worryingly penchant for autocracy in UKOK.

      So tell me what difference is there in Bojo’s No Deal Brexit and Jo’s revoke article 50…..other than somehow both of them are desperate to convince their respective Leave and Remain supporters that this is the will of the people…..

      Seems to be either is a disaster in relation to that ‘democracy’ they both pretend to want to uphold… fact the only common ground they both hold is withholding the democratic rights of Scots…Jo’s perspective is very much aligned to the Union uber alles idealogy which believes that only those who support the UKOK as the only concept will have the right to vote again, change their minds and she, like Boris, will ensure democracy is defined only by those who agree with that…..two cheeks of the same a*se.

      One wonders if the Cherry and Miller case fail in appeal then will she , and those desperate Remain voters and pundits , see Jo’s plan in revoking article 50 as the ‘only hope’ to prevent UKOK from Brexiting…one thing is for sure she will definitely define it as such….the opportunist in her will see this as her moment to strike while the Brexit iron is hot and give false hope to remainers….one hopes though that there will be enough sane people left to make her see that this action will set a dangerous precedent upon the ‘democracy’ that so many, including her , seem to be so very very desperate to uphold….just NOT for you Scots.

      Apologies for these rants aware this off topic but need to have somewhere to rant….I hope !

    433. Clapper57 says:

      Not another one…sorry yes another rant.

      The Herald’s story re Unionist petition requiring two-thirds majority for Scottish independence this a NEW petition or the SAME petition that has been on the ‘Scottish government petitions’ website since 21 August 2019….if SAME petition then is this the Herald publicising this petition in order to get the numbers up via Unionists…I have been monitoring this petition and noted it increased today….hmm ( I did mention seeing this petition a wee while back on the MT ).

      See told you Unionists do NOT like Scots to have democracy…always need to rig things because they have NO real argument to present to justify Scotland remaining in UKOK….and if it is the SAME petition that The Herald are highlighting today…. then as per it appears that they are once again complicit in siding with and promoting Unionist initiatives to suppress independence ….colour me surprised.

      UKOK Referendum passes by needing a MAJORITY.

      Independence Referendum will ONLY be passed if exceeds by a two thirds majority.

      Wow let’s see how they run with this justification…if Ruth’s ‘decency’that she spouted about on Lorraine fangirl Kelly’s show today is to have any chance of being valid then one would think this will be shot down pronto…decency ?…for a Unionist it is not a behaviour they conform to when there is a Union to uphold.

    434. Dan says:

      I’ve been away for a wee break after the busy Perth AUOB weekend so just dropping in occasionally.
      It appears to have been fairly quiet on Wings so going to bump an idea for more short Pro-Indy slogans again, and extend it to include short chants for marches as well. Reason being because in 5 years some folk still haven’t worked out that we need more, not less, folk joining the pro-indy side to create the majority of Scots wanting the return to Scottish self-governance.
      Shouting “out out out” to potential voters doesnae help increase the diversity and numbers of voters that may be inclined to vote Indy.

      So, today is 5 years on from Scots snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and handing back control of their futures to Clown Show @ SW1A 0AA.

      That means there’s been a full 5 years of “stimulating” events and emotions we’ve had to witness and endure, some of which must be able to be conveyed in words.

      Brain dump:

      What do we want? – Independence!
      When do we want it? – Now!

      It’s time tae put London Rule in the bin
      300 years o’ it inflicted on Scotland is a sin
      The damage it is doing to our people and our land
      is becoming unacceptable and we reject it out of hand

      What do we want? – Independence!
      When do we want it? – Now!


      What do we want? – Our Sovereignty respected!
      When do we want that? Now!

      We’ve come tae Edinburgh fae the lowlands and the hills
      Tae protest the injustices of London Rule’s ills,
      The tide is a turning and they need tae be aware
      That Scotland willnae put up wi’ their nonsense any mair

      What do we want? – Our Sovereignty respected!
      When do we want that? Now!


      Since twa thousand and fourteen it has become very clear
      T’was all lies and bluster spouted by their corrupt Project Fear
      Treating all our fair people in this way is just no right
      And we’re marching here today coz we’ve had enough o’ their… silence or poop coz swearing is bad m’kay.


      What do we want? – To free England from the hassle and cost of governing Scotland!
      When do we want that? – Now!

    435. Gary45% says:

      What do we want? Vegan sausages, when do we want them? mmm no sure because it may offend some folk.

    436. dadsarmy says:

      Britain, Brexit, BoJo, Bonkers! YES?

    437. Gary45% says:

      Bon Dias Troops. Twitter is way above my pay grade although I have a wee look at WoS. I noticed earlier a link to the vagina museum in London. Scotland has missed a golden opportunity to house such a place. Twatt in Orkney comes to mind but the “daddy of them all” Castle Grey Skull filled with the OO , a mass collection of Vaginas for all the world to laugh at.

    438. Dan says:


      “a mass collection of Vaginas for all the world to continue to laugh at.”

      Fixed that for you. Because Scots voting not to control their own destiny 5 years ago which could have let us avoid a great deal of bollox, proved that regardless of their sex, 55% of the population were fannies…

      Friday nicht ponderings…

      If I Self ID as a woman does I at least getz the multiple orgasms when us Scots get royally fucked by UK exiting da EU?

      Your “for all the world to..” reminded me of the band called Death album – For all the World to See.

      Politicians In My Eyes-

    439. dadsarmy says:

      Ot it could be
      Britain, Brexit, BoJo, Bonkers? YES!

    440. Dan says:


      Could possibly use a few more Bs…

      Becoming Battered n Bruised Black n Blue by Barmy Bombastic Buffoon BoJo’s Bastardin Broken Britain “Brexit” Bullshitathon?

      Would it be orgasmic never to hear the word “Brexit” again?

      Then vote…Yes…YES…YES!

      Come tae think o’ it, maybe that’s why many yoons appear so grumpy, coz they cannae properly celebrate a climax wi’oot worrying aboot their precious union. lol

    441. Cactus says:

      Cool, we’re off topic, I am watching the PASSION of Greta Thunberg on a guest East Coast tv 24seven like, aye like Greta like, guid roll model like

      She will NOW be a 21st century… celebrity!!

      Hehe ha ha HEY!

      Hey Thomas Cook!

    442. Clapper57 says:

      Supreme court judgements today

      If I may add my congratulations ….I’ve just read a lot of those Remainer twitters darn sarf twitter a/c’ here goes…will echo their sentiments..and their mentions…i.e. who they mention the most for today’s victory….

      Well done Jo Maugham, Gina Miller…oh and Lady Hale…and eh… oh yeh Balfour and Manson legal team…em don’t think I have missed out anyone…nope looking at some of the twitter a/c’s of remainer pundits and remainer peeps darn sarf nope no one missed out…going on who they are congratulating the most for today’s judgement ..yeh great team work…yeh…Team GB….shame they missed out Jo…em…Jo…em…oh Yeh…..the main girl..for this victory…Jo Swinson.

    443. Clapper57 says:

      Cannot just cannot post on MT..but…if anyone should come to off topic they can add this info :

      Last night 23 September 2019 in Fraserburgh an event :

      Titled : Scotland Matters

      Contributors :

      Peter Chapman – Conservative
      Mike Rumbles – Lib dem
      Plus Councillor Mark Findlater ( Conservative)

      A new forum and network for people for people who want :

      Scotland to remain in UK
      The SNP defeated and out of government
      Opposition parties to start opposing the SNP
      Start proposing policies
      Win 2021 election
      Fix and transform Scotland

      Meet people just like you
      Find out what you can do to..Fix , Transform and save Scotland

      Panel discussion and Q & A


      Panel was Peter, Mike and Mark all Unionists ( 2 Tories and 1 Lib Dem)
      Remember Willie Rennie said NO collaboration between Lib Dem and Tories………..THIS meeting however shows that there is indeed a collaboration to oust the SNP and I am sure tactical voting would have been raised…….this is just the beginning…presented as 2021 Holyrood election but I am sure next GE also a factor at this meeting….tactical voting at GE noted on minutes of last night’s event ?..For sure….as to good an opportunity to miss when you practice gutter politics.

      This proves that the Lib Dems are indeed the lowest of the low because they are more than willing to tell their fanboys and girls in Engerland who want to remain in EU that they will oppose Bojo and No Deal AND revoke Article 50……..however here in Scotland they will collaborate with the ‘enemy’ i.e. the Brexit Tory party to ensure the SNP do not win in Scotland………yes indeed two different countries…with two different Lib Dem messages …

      In Engerland : They, the Lib Dems, will defy and oppose the Tories.
      In Scotland : They, the Lib Dems, collaborate to defeat the common enemy the SNP…that is THE SNP Remain party…so where is their, the Lib Dems, Remain alliance in Scotland ?….rogues and opportunist they are….remain mugs in Engerland however think they, the Lib Dems, are their saviours from Brexit….we in Scotland ken them much better as the lying scavenger party…like Leopards Lib Dem spots will never change..Tories in all but name.

    444. Cactus says:

      Hey folks, I’m going to take a time-out for now (prob long overdue.)

      Hope to be back with you all nearer the time.

      Keep the candle burning x.

    445. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Cactus –

      Dows, 25th Oct, about three-ish onwards.

      We can get properly ‘hammered’.


    446. Dan says:

      All the best Cactus and hope you recharge yersel for future Indy endevours, whatever they may be.

      Bitty hard maybe but dedicated to Lady Hale and her broach. For a brief moment I thought she was wearing the Prodigy ant!
      The Prodigy – Their Law

    447. Clapper57 says:

      All the big boys are playing on MT…meanwhile here in purgatory where no one (really) knows your name…you realise you are not just on Off Topic…but really really on Off Topic….which results in you being…..Off the radar…Off the grid (MT one)….Off the wall…and metaphorically Off the pitch….

      No desire to go back on MT and fight off members of the so called ‘fan’ club…more than one fan club I think…cut and thrust of posting comments with guaranteed incoming attacks aplenty , some where you least expect them and others oh so predictable.

      Perhaps this page, Off Topic, should be renamed the Refuge page…for those posters who, like me, want to give their opinion and are free from the constant weary onslaught of those who like to tell you that they know best…and that your opinion is tainted with a “BritNat” tone …….if your comment is perceived by others as being wrong then debate is fine….name calling and shaming is willingly wandering into the territory of Trolls and uber Unionists…

      So convenient to forget it is people we are communicating with…though here on Off Topic I am clearly talking to myself…it’s nice and safe though ….it’s also perfect for someone like me who is often crippled by depression which results in a massive lack of confidence and a constant feeling of isolation….I am not alone with this condition and as such try, where possible, to treat others as I expect them to treat me…ironic feeling isolated when it is clear that on Off Topic I am indeed isolated….it seems to be the no man’s land on WOS Lol.

      It is very easy to ride roughshod and go full gung ho on other people’s feelings who post on here ( MT)…to make assumptions that because they post a comment they are therefore fair game to be ridiculed or disregarded for holding the opinion that they do.

      I myself have on a couple of occasions attacked people on MT who I thought were obvious Trolls but in hindsight I should have held back and ignored them.Now I have taken the step to NOT post on MT but instead post occasionally on Off Topic…where little, if any, interaction is given and where I am quite happily resigned to intermittently posting a comment in this little place of sanctuary far away from where it sometimes seems like a war of words is being constantly fought….on the MT.

      Opinions matter and differing opinions matter too…but sometimes we all become so obsessed in trying to convince other people to see our opinions….as the right opinion…that we tend to overwhelm and suffocate others into submission…I’m a woman so I’m kinda used to some people dismissing and disregarding my opinion..but that aside I know that it is but just an opinion…how I feel, what I perceive and sometimes what I know is all I can share…and more importantly to have the freedom to share that opinion without fear of being ridiculed and thus denied a voice because once bitten ( by aspersion casters) twice shy ( or forever shy through public shaming)…..if anyone does venture onto Off Topic and reads this I hope they are gracious enough to allow me to indulge myself with this post and should they disagree with my sentiment I hope they do so in a manner that is in the same vein as I have expressed via this very self indulgent but from the heart comment.

      The fact I have posted this comment on Off Topic and not on the MT is in itself self explanatory is it not.

    448. Liz g says:

      Iain Brotherhood… Re night out…
      Count me in Iain and thanks for organising it….
      Should we post what we intend to bring to avoid doubling up?
      Flapper 57

    449. Liz g says:

      Clapper 57 Yes CLAPPER 57
      Sorry about that you have no idea the insane changes my auto correct makes…. I Think it wants to get me in As much trouble as it can 🙂
      Why don’t you come back on the main thread and just talk to me…. While my auto correct is horrible, I’m not ever nasty to anyone who is not nasty to me first and your never nasty…
      We’d be fine???? You have things to say and should have the space to say them 🙂
      Oh and are ye coming to the night out??? 🙂

    450. crazycat says:

      @ Ian B

      Count me in (possibly +1) for the 25th – not till at least 5, though, since I’ll be in the hub in Kilmarnock till 4. Not sure what food I’ll bring, but it’ll be something.

    451. Clapper57 says:

      @ Liz G @ @ 11.15pm & 11.23pm

      Lol…for a minute there I thought you were calling me a ‘flapper girl’…though I never saw the roaring 20’s Lol, am no longer a ‘girl’ Lol and never wore fringed dresses and danced the Charleston Lol

      Liz you are a sweetie but I cannot come back on the MT , you would have to know me to know why I feel so strongly about that…however…I am enjoying myself on off topic so no harm done I hope…and if you visit occasionally we will have a wee chat….

      Re the night out…believe Ian B said it starts about 3pm..ish….so may come but not sure…would LOVE to put faces to all of the names I see posting.

      All the best and if I do come will look forward to meeting you….quite like the name Flapper 57…wish I had thought of it actually….hmm …you can call me Flapper 57…but ONLY you Lol

    452. dadsarmy says:

      I kind of flick past the troll hunters these days, having like you made comments I regret. It just fills up the threads with accusations and counter-accusations, with other people summarising the postings of both sides, then others saying it’s wasting thread space, and then other posters posting to say that if people want to post that it’s wasting thread space why don’t they go to off-topic and post a summary there with a link back for every new post so that people in the MT who want to follow the troll hunting antics can go over to off-topic to see the latest state of play of the troll hunting fun and games. Or of course start their own forum called “troll-hunters anonymous”.

      But from what I gather, apparently there are SNP members going around letting the air out of Britnats’s tyres. I think I got that right.

      Which is actually a good thing if you’re a huge 18-wheeler with 6 foot diameter tyres and your overall height is 2 inches more than the bridge you’re trying to drive under! I’ve seen it done with low-loaders carrying turbines, and the funny thing is when they get through and then discover they don’t have a pump. Oops.

      Where the trolls come in, who knows. Probably under the bridges. Hoping the low-loaders don’t crush them and turn them into troll-roll.

      Of course, letting air out of a self-inflating tyre is self-defeating, so those people need to be careful not to do that, and to make sure that the tyres are not from Britax buggies, as that’s just cruel to babies – and buggy pushers.

      Mmmm, I’m tired after all that.

    453. Liz g says:

      Flapper 57
      Flapper my friend ye made my night…. This is total revenge on my Evil auto correct… It did it’s worst and gained me a friend… Yay… 🙂
      I’ll do my very best to remember to pop over here for a chat ( it is much nicer here isn’t it ) but don’t worry if I forgot,since oor Smallaxe isn’t around regularly I’ve gotten out of the habit,but I’m like a bad penny I’ll show up eventually 🙂
      I hope you manage to make it to the night out…. The venue is on the door step of Queen at Station and very Yes friendly. Either way take care of you… Speak soon xxxx

    454. Clapper57 says:

      @ dadsarmy @ 11.50pm

      Hi dadsarmy, yes indeed…fun and games is it not.

      Hence my rants being transferred to Off Topic…where no one can hear you SCREAM….or care….or tell you to shut up…I hope.. Lol

      I never scroll past your posts on the MT…I do enjoy them…and like some others I prefer to “lurk” on MT ….your a brave person….wish I was…take care.

    455. Clapper57 says:

      @ Liz g @ 12.02am

      Hugs emoji….take care.


    456. dadsarmy says:

      What helps me I think is that I post on the Herald and get on OK with 3 or 4 of the sensible Unionist posters, though not sure if “Unionist” is really appropriate. But there’s a couple of stalkers target me (same as they target another few Indy posters, trying to provoke us or discredit us). So it’s good practice here on Wings to keep the cool 🙂

      It should be the other way around really, post here to let off a bit of steam. Used to be, but then the snpstasi got organised.

      Curiously there’s a couple of Indy posters on the Herald seem to have a slanging match relationship with Unionists, and I think it’s actually friendly.

      Funny old world, it’s totally beyond me.

    457. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Liz g –

      Aye, no harm telling us what you intend to bring. People always enjoy talking about food.

      Still don’t know what I’m bringing. Mibbe just a big plate ay jam & cheese pieces!


    458. Dorothy Devine says:

      Iain B , I need to be there for my sanity but it will be a pop in as I think I am on granny duties later .

      I will try to bring a fruit loaf which does not way a ton this time and of which I was so ashamed / anxious about that I snuck it back home.

      Spud salad from you??

      Cactus , I have been missing your madness . hope all is well.

    459. Clapper57 says:

      Why everyone is up in arms ..language…watch your language…you offend us and put us in danger….and our families.

      Meanwhile the self imposed Remain warrior queen Jo Swinson accuses Scottish ‘nationalism’ as being the same as English nationalism..equating both as ” ‘forcing’ people to choose” she says….

      And what of all of those very same people currently decrying the ‘language’ being used by Bojo and co…what is their response to Jo’s false assertion via the language she is using to promote her opinion….why they seem to be ignoring or tolerating this false statement Jo has made…why ?…because it does not affect them…they are too busy trying to save themselves from leaving the EU…and are deluded into seeing Jo as their ONLY hope to doing this….so they ignore HER language and HER false equivalence…why ?…..because they agree do they not.

      Jo forgets how much Better Together ‘forced’ their arguments upon naive and fearful Scots…project Fear ran by BT, which the Lib dems were active members of, was indeed forceful in it’s negative and vitriolic campaign to try to ‘force’ scots to remain in the UK… different really to the campaign run by uber Brexiteer Nigel Farage I think….if we are to make a true comparison and parallel.

      The only exceptionalism being displayed is the argument promoted by Jo and her BT friends that the Union is somehow ‘exceptional’ and that I am afraid is an argument that they, the Unionists like Jo, lost when they decided to adopt the same kind of campaign pre and since 2014 to the identical one promoted by those English nationalists who argued for and defended Brexit pre and since 2016…..

      However we can see the similar underhanded methods used by both the Brexit and BT campaign….where so called ‘facts’ were presented, before the vote, as truths and since the result of the votes those so called ‘facts’ of truth disappeared and are expected to be conveniently disregarded and forgotten. Where promoting fear and manipulating people’s insecurities were used to win the argument and added pressure was applied by a media complicit in both pro Brexit ‘Leave’ and BT ‘No’ sides.

      Someone needs to look in the mirror and reflect on their true image and not the one they want the easily conned to see….Hell will freeze over before a Lib Dem would ever be honest enough to do that….fortunately a lot of Scots can see through the ‘looking’ glass and know exactly what image they see when they look at people like Jo Swinson….Mirror Mirror on the wall whose the biggest liar of all……well when Nigel sees Jo’s image looking back at him surely Jo will see Nigel’s looking back at her.? …..peas in a pod and cheeks of the same a*se indeed…..

    460. Clapper57 says:

      Here’s a wee story that happened to my hubby a few weeks back when he was in Cambridge at folk festival with his friend.

      Hubby had watched Richard Thompson’s set and just before the end he was feeling a wee bit unwell so came out of the tent. He went over to what was designed to be a notable meeting place…which was a very large wicker fox…he told his friend that was where he would be sitting.

      So as he sat down to try and get himself together a group of four men passed him…one of the men pointed at him and said ” you lot just think about yourselves”…my husband was confused and initially thought he might have bumped into this guy in the tent when he was on his way out….before he could answer the guy…the guy pointed to my husband’s bag and repeated the same thing…his friends then pushed the guy away.

      My husband’s bag was a Scottish supporters bag…he is a member of the tartan army and a member of the Scottish football supporters club…one of the things you get as a member upon joining is a bag with their logo and writing stating ‘Scottish supporters club’ on it.

      It was only then that my husband realised this must have been in relation to Brexit ….and actually the ‘language’, via this statement, that this guy was using was really simply anti Scottish…portraying Scots as somehow selfish and self centred and not thinking of their neighbours, whose population far exceed Scots voters, and THEIR, the English people’s needs…pesky Scots trying to stop Brexit, get their Independence AND not only that but also having the audacity to actually want to remain in the EU AND keep us English in as well ..sacre bleu #ScotsBad.

      Now this guy was a complete stranger…he did not know for a fact that my husband was Scottish…..or whether he was a ‘leaver’ or a ‘remainer’ re Brexit….or even a Unionist or Independence supporter BUT this guy really needed to vent his anger at what he assumed at that moment was an appropriate target….he cared not a jot who my husband voted for politically, cared not whether he was a ‘Leaver’ or a ‘Remainer’, supported the Union or wanted Independence….BUT….he saw something ‘Scottish’ and THAT was what he was attacking…

      So what judgement would Jo Swinson determine re this encounter…would she apportion blame upon the aggressive male who said this to my husband……… or would she see this as conveniently somehow a result of the ‘division’ created by the SNP seeking Independence thus blaming them for promoting her perception of what Scottish ‘nationalism’ represents and thus results in such encounters as I have described above.

      We all have an individual responsibility in how we act and interact with others and what we say and how we say it really really matters…but if politicians, like Jo Swinson, apportion BLAME upon Scots who want independence and do it on a UKOK platform that is broadcast to all within the UK via TV then she helps reaffirm and promote the prejudiced and indeed division that exists within those English guys like the one who confronted my husband and many other English people who also see her negative message as the justification for them to be entitled to vent their anger upon Scots…or rather any Scot they encounter….

      She emboldens guys like this to act this way because she deliberately makes a distinction between certain Scots and their beliefs and thus we become the ‘others’..the ‘enemy’ and so fair game for abuse.

      Two wrongs do not make a right…some may think I am stretching my point of the above encounter with statements Jo Swinson has made BUT remember she is happy to present us as divisive, anti English and ultimately spoilers in what could be her vision of a fantasy re there ever being a UNITED Kingdom….we, the Scots ‘sepratists’, we are the fly in the UKOK ointment and as long as unionists present us as this then we all shall, if we venture South, probably meet many more like this guy and his warped opinion….

      So Jo Swinson and those like her have emboldened people like this guy to think he is within his rights to make such ludicrous and ill informed statements to a complete stranger…….perhaps Jo should temper HER language because she is not the only one in potential danger through careless use of lazy categorisations …..which will be lapped up by those English ‘Nationlists’ she purports to be against….perhaps she thinks, like Labour, she can be all things to all people or just do what her natural Tory instincts tell her to do….say one thing and then do the opposite….that sounds about right for Jo ‘Tory’ Swinson.

      All paths lead to people like Jo…as eventually do ALL stories.. like the above one…she is definitely one of the catalysts that generate the REAL division in her UKOK….just watch her in IndyRef 2…..we’re ready for her are we not….as are English guys like the one who confronted my husband BUT her argument to keep Scots in the Union will fall flat with that English guy and many others because she , a Scot, is another one who tried to stop THEM, the English, from getting Brexit….perhaps hapless Jo is taking on way too many battles….and will ultimately win none….Good luck to the mugs who will vote for her and her party in the upcoming GE…it will be forgive them Lord for they know not what they have done….but they soon bloody will…post GE…as will we The Scots……Lol

    461. Liz g says:

      Clapper 57 @ 5.42
      Hi Flapper 🙂 , what an ignoramus but sadly not unusual when down south.
      This is why I find the Scottish and Irish who defend the Union and cry themselves to be British puzzling!!!
      In my experience English people don’t see a Brit in front of them they see a Scott or an Irish person a Brit is an English person.
      We Scots and the Irish no matter how loyal are never quite a Brit…. And there’s not a thing wrong with that,unless of course like your husband it’s used to berate someone.
      This one country one nation thing is a political fiction

    462. David says:

      Choons for yoons:
      For Jim Murphy – Rainbow – “I surrender”

      For Boris Johnson – Wet Wet Wet – “Sweet Surrender”


    463. David says:

      Brinsley Schwarz “Surrender To The Rhythm”

    464. David says:

      Grace Jones – Slave to the Rhythm

    465. David says:

      Jefferson Airplane – Somebody to Love

    466. David says:

      Beatles – All You Need Is Love

    467. David says:

      The Faces (with Rod Stewart)- That’s All You Need

    468. Clapper57 says:

      @ Liz g @ 8.30pm

      Spot on Liz…one nation….aye right….the distinction between us and some of those who support the UK is like planets apart …no solar system apart….

      And yes ignoramus is an apt description…obviously a blind believer in the church of Brexit…probably donating to the collection tin of Farage & co….fools and their money easily parted and disengaged brains easily conned….can’t help thinking their in for a shock when they see what the Tories are going to replace the EU laws with…hopefully we will be on the road to freedom and away from THEIR Utopic vision of ‘ taking back control’ etc etc…reality always bites you in the a*se …….eventually.

      ( See the Rev on MT caught out yon fundily mundily…laugh…yes I did……and still am…what a ….word that rhymes with manny…he is…fundily mundily that is not the Rev…Lol ).

      Take care sweetie


    469. David says:

      Cartoon Ending – Thats All Folks

    470. Clapper57 says:

      @ David

      Love Jefferson Airplane,the Faces ( especially like Mandolin wind ) and Genesis….really enjoyed that..thank you.

      Good man….can you link Stone Roses Fools gold track…I can’t link I’m afraid..techno techno phobe Lol

      Have a good evening David…and Liz g…..and everyone else who visits OT tonight.

      ps. Enjoyed Ian Brotherhood on MT today…what a guy…straight talker ….takes no s**t…as he would say…Sooperb….Lol

    471. David says:

      This one’s for Clapper57!

      The Stone Roses – Fools Gold

    472. Clapper57 says:

      @ David @ 11.02pm

      Thank you David enjoyed that.

      You know the first time I heard that track was on the radio , in the car, and it was the extended version, and my husband turned the radio on and it was at the long guitar solo…we thought it was a Frank Zappa track…Lol…until the radio announcer said after the track had finished playing who it was…we then went and bought their album .

      Also saw a documentary about them on telly which was really interesting…really good band.

      Cheers David


    473. David says:

      And this is DJ Devo David signing off from Radio Wings tonight – my wife’s taking over the computer now. 🙁 🙂

      Madness – Tomorrow’s (Just another Day)

      P.S. Clapper57, copying Youtube videos to here is easy-peasy, but you have to remember to delete the letters “https://” which magically appear before the “www” of the video link.

    474. dadsarmy says:

      One for Clapper57 and hubby. Sandy Denny always was a favourite, and saw Fairport a few times live. Kind of lost interest a bit when she died.

    475. Clapper57 says:

      @ dadsarmy

      Thank you dadsarmy.

      My hubby loves Sandy Denny…I am not that aware of her so much but enjoyed the track you selected ….I do love another female singer called Joanna Newsom…especially the track ’81…we were going to see her in Paris one year but something came up so couldn’t go…she is quite an interesting artist…perhaps for some an acquired taste..

      Have good day when the sun rises…Lol…….


    476. dadsarmy says:

      He’ll know this one then.

    477. Clapper57 says:

      @ dadsarmy

      That was a lovely track….her voice was quite haunting.

      My husband has that track on ‘I’ve always kept a Unicorn’ The Acoustic….

      Have a wee listen to the track I mentioned by Joanna Newsom…you may or may not like her voice…she is quite quirky and as I say an acquired taste.

      Many Thanks


    478. dadsarmy says:

      Will do laterzzz, I’m shattered and off to my pit 🙂

    479. Clapper57 says:

      Funny how all of those liberal minded remain peeps are suddenly challenging and questioning the impartiality of the BBC…as if prior to EU Ref they, the BBC, were the paragons of virtue in their impartial political reporting…..well…welcome to the world of the Scottish Independence supporter…we have been there, done that, read the book and now wear the T- shirt…

      Forgive us for not jumping on your sad remainer situation bandwagon…but we cannot remember many of you jumping on our Scottish indy YES campaign in our time of need pre 2014….in fact there were many of you quite happy to endorse the BBC’s political bias shenanigans….indeed many of your pundits contributed to the BBC’s biased position…we were accused of being mad conspiracy theorists…..well now the shoe is on the other foot it must not seem such a mad perspective for us, the Scots, to have taken after all…….hmm

      AND I believe you are all also horrified at the headlines of certain newspapers who you deem responsible for influencing so many people who supported and voted for Brexit…..well we had that too pre 2014 and many of your liberal minded pundits wrote articles in some of these same newspapers responsible for influencing people here in Scotland to support and vote NO in Indy Ref 1…no indignation from you all then…just a collective sense of justification at the MSM position against the YES side……..

      So I for one only seek Scotland to achieve independence and to remain in the EU…..because come Indy Ref 2 I suspect many of you will maintain the exact same position you did in Indy Ref 1….more so now you are foolishly also endorsing supporting the Lib Dems as your political party of choice….and they, as a party, are NO supporter of Scottish independence. So good luck, you will need it as unfortunately by choosing the Lib Dems you will more than likely encounter misfortune as they, as a party, have a tendency to promise much but deliver very little….

      Something else us Scots are aware of…and think you all TOO must be aware of that fact , but thanks to Brexit you all choose to wear blinkers as you see the Lib Dems somehow as your only hope to somehow remain in the EU……..funnily enough not for us Scots though…we have another way…not one endorsed by the Lib Dems though… the Lib Dems party ?….well that is indeed one bogus bandwagon most Scots will NEVER jump on .

    480. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Dorothy –

      Delighted to hear you’ll make it along. I didn’t get any of your cake last time, will bag a slice early doors!

      @Clapper57 –

      Your comments should really be on MT – please consider a return?


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