Nine little words
An alert reader was listening to the Today programme on Radio 4 this morning when they heard something unexpected that made them sit up and take notice. It came as part of a segment on Northern Irish people living in Scotland, 45 minutes into the show, and was stated in passing as an unremarkable statistic by BBC reporter Andy Martin.
We’ve isolated it for you – click the image above to listen to the short 13-second clip. (The full six-minute piece can be found here for when it expires on iPlayer.)
“Scotland is a net contributor to the Westminster pot.”
Those nine words lie at the heart of the independence debate. The No campaign has spent the last two years trying to disguise the fact with weasel words and deliberately confusing statistics that count debt as spending in order to try to make it sound like Scotland is subsidised by the rest of the UK rather than the other way around.
Now, we know the truth already. But it’s never admitted in public by the No campaign, and we don’t recall ever hearing it stated so unambiguously by a news reporter before either. “Scotland is a net contributor to the Westminster pot” leaves no room for doubt: we give more than we get back. We subsidise the rest of the UK, and we would be instantly better off as an independent nation, even before a single policy change.
We wonder if there’ll be a hasty backtrack and “correction”, or if the No camp and media will simply move on quickly and try to pretend it didn’t happen.
Who made the statement?
“was stated in passing as an unremarkable statistic by BBC reporter Andy Martin”
I don’t mean the reporter, Andy Martin.
He must have got the quote or data from someone else.
How would I know? That’s my point – he stated it as an uncontroversial fact without need of explanation.
I heard it too and thought “wow” hope someones recording this.. and they did.
The links from know and truth are to two articles posted before I found out about Wings.
If you’re a recent convert, I can heartily recommend them.
Or sacked……seems to be the BBC way.
I hope the Israelis don’t complain about this or he will be bumped like Jeremy Bowen…
Mr Martin was speaking from the viewpoint of Northern Ireland, where, it seems, they know the truth about Scotland’s net contribution to Westminster’s coffers.
If people in Northern Ireland can handle the truth why can’t unionists in Scotland and England?
Is there anything left to debunk ?
Have a look at what Sir George Mathewson has come out with Stu. Dynamite.
link to milngavieherald.co.uk
My money’s on “pretend it didn’t happen” with possibly a wee bit of “Poor wee soul got his facts from the wrong place” thrown in for good measure ????????????
You couldn’t make this stuff up! There’s definitely a play or a stand up routine based on the “No” camp’s lunacy on the cards post referendum.
I heard it too. It was totally unambiguous. The whole article was pro indie really except for Paisley spouting the usual.
Oh jeez, that’ll leave a mark.
The policy wonks’ll be issuing briefs to the beeb any time now. 😀
Someone is going to be sacked.
Scottish Passports – Processed in Belfast
Scottish Borders – Controlled by Belfast
Clyde Coastguard HQ – Belfast
RAF Leuchars closes -Scots tax builds and kits-out a new RAF Base outside Belfast.
Oldest Scottish Regiment in the British Army – permanently based — outside Belfast.
Forget contributing to the UK when thousands of jobs in Ulster were plundered from Scots in Scotland.
The Orange Order will march next month before the IndyREF to celebrate the fact that the Bigots in Belfast and Ulster retain all the jobs and ANCIENT RIGHTS that belong in Scotland.
OO wouldn`t recognise IRONY or Hypocrisy if it smacked them on the arse wi` a Lambeg Drum.
They know the truth but pedal lies to the people who put their faith in them. They are the scum of the earth.
Of course they will quickly move on. Hoping that nobody paid any attention
Another excellent article, Rev, tweeted as per usual. @Defo I saw that item too about Sir George Mathewson. This is the Archiveis link to the Financial Times which first ran it: link to archive.today The FT hasn’t exactly been totally supportive of Indy, but it’s been admirably impartial imho.
Rowing backwards, ahead of something, but what?
The reporter did not say that off his own bat. We are talking about a scripted meme here and they have their orders to diffuse it.
wondering?
Radio 4. They probably assumed there wouldn’t be any Scots listening. After all, they only need to tell the lie when they think we’re listening.
Amazed that was even broadcast by R4 Today. Jim Naughtie must be unwell, or on his hols because if that script was handed to him he simply would not have read it out.
I see the the Milngavie Herald is a Johnstone Press (same as the Scotsman) title.
Something in the air?
Here’s the true version of that second graphic:
link to scottcreighton.co.uk
Fredom`s just another word for nothing left to LOSE.
Yup, no Naughtie link to bbc.co.uk
I found in my experience many intelligent N Ireland Prods abroad behave much differently, especially when they are treated as “thick Paddies” in Engerland. I know many here who support Scottish Independence and are United Irish Republicans, whilst they are here, but have to thole it when they visit back home. This was especially true among the many attending Universities here.
Fine. Glad to hear them admit it. But the folk I’m talking to on the doorsteps neither know nor care.
“They’ll all do what they like anyway.”
“Nothing we do will change anything”
“I don’t know anything about it.”
“I’m British, not Scottish” – said in a strong Scottish accent.
I sometimes get so frustrated I begin to think some people shouldn’t be allowed to vote – and I know that restricting the vote is the start of a slippery slope that leads to very bad places.
Cheer me up someone, I’m out knocking doors this afternoon and tonight, trying to keep a smile on my face.
Allypally – offer those nine little words, followed by nine more: Better Together have no arguments, so just vote Yes.
Glad to see the EBC superiors returning home after the Empire Games. They obviously thought their inferiors and Little Britons in PQ were not good enough, or not to be trusted.
link to youtube.com
Cindie. Cheers for the link. The last paragraph was great, headline already written Stu. Bucket of salt !
“The Scottish government’s proposals for the economic governance of an independent Scotland are undoubtedly the best on the table. They offer a bright future for Scottish financial services and the wider economy. The alternative claims of those with a political interest in Scotland voting No should be taken with a bucket of salt.”
The worst part is that we’re all surprised that someone on the state broadcaster spoke the truth…..
Cindie. BTW You can trust the FT to deliver. They do £, not playing politics.
@AllyPally
Take heart Ally. As you say most of these people neither know nor care and most probably won’t bother to vote either. So every one that you do manage to get through to is worth two or three votes. 😀
sombre day in Glasgow as the venues and infrastructure are dismantled. BUT they seem to have forgotten about Pacific Quay, now that its empty of all the numpties they parachuted in over the local talent. 6 weeks and that building will be redundant.
Just received the latest propaganda sheet from UK government.
Five wrong facts. Scotland will keep the pound
Fails to mention the higher Scottish tax take as referred to above.
As Scotland will be in the EU there will be no new borders or different currency.
Energy bills will increase due to the massive nuclear subsidy guaranteed by the UK government.
and Strength of the UK undermined by the massive £1.4 trillion National Debt and poor balance of trade figures.
heedtracker
Naughtie was doing the Glasgow Cathedral broadcast.
@Ally Pally
Only one of those 4 will vote if that helps.
Colin Mccartney
We can sell it on e-bay but, I think it is leased from an off-shore company?
[…] « Nine little words […]
All was not quite so rosy on the Today Programme this morning. After discussing British sport and implications for the future, they ran down the British Home Nations medal tables, see if you can spot what went wrong:
England 174 medals
Wales 36 medals
Scotland 19 golds
Northern Ireland 12 medals
Of course, by their own medal table on the website, Scotland got 53 medals.
BP shareprice up 0/7% this morning.
Keep an eye on it for the next few days.
According to Crash and Flipper, in Commons Statements to retain RAF Leuchars, the base needed 12,000 support staff jobs and some 2,000 RAF personnel.
SUPPORT STAFF JOBS in the local and manufacturing industries that fed,watered and housed RAF people in FIFE AND ENVIRONS.?
Work and jobs that the ConDems are removing from Scotland and transferring to Ulster.?
A Regiment consists of 3,600 officers and men.
Obviously a far larger contingent than is required by one RAF Base like Leuchars.
Therefore – MORE men and far more LOCAL support jobs.
Crash and Flipper, along with BamCam and Clegg resolutely REFUSE to return these jobs to Scotland.
187 x workers lost their jobs at Glasgow Passport Office in 2007 when Crash and Flipper shifted Scots(only) Passport Processing to Belfast.
After SNP Won Minority Govt in 2007.
Crash and Flipper with all their SLAB scabs shifted Passport Processing – to Belfast.
On the 300th Anniversary of the Act of Union of 1707.
How can Salmond possibly LOSE tomorrow night versus Flipper who seceded Ancient Scottish Rights time after time – to spitefully punish his ain folk.?
Scots Pay Tax to mug ourselves.
So the vitally important, very simple message to get over to people on doorsteps, in the street, in the workplace, in the pub – everywhere – is
“WE GIVE MORE MONEY TO THE UK THAN WE GET BACK”
Supplementary point is that our money is used to pay for lots of things we don’t want – e.g. Trident, Aircraft Carriers, tax breaks for the super rich, HS2.
In the run in to Sep 18, keep it simple and clear. Keep repeating it – people don’t always absorb even the simplest messages the first time they hear them, especially if the message is counter to their preconceived beliefs.
@AllyPally
Know those feelings only too well. Often read of people coming back from canvassing beaming ear to ear … ‘we’ll win this’ … ‘polls are way off’ and find myself wishing I were where they are, because that’s not really what I’ve found.
But, but … having only stepped away from the keyboard a few short weeks ago, finally hearing the ‘take it face to face’ call become un-ignorable, I also know that it’s wrong to extrapolate, you just can’t go from the specific to the general.
And then you get a day like yesterday, a couple of hours in the afternoon and spring is back in step. One thing that stopped me ever considering canvassing was that I wouldn’t be able to pick jaw off floor when faced with wilful ignorance, that I’d just want to slap folk about the face and scream at them to wake up. Needn’t have worried.
So you walk away from the entrenched No and you take delight in someone standing there with their chin out whilst you ask them where they stand on the scale, waiting for the ‘is there a minus score?’, and they come back at you with a full-on 110% Yes. And they take posters and car stickers. 🙂
Next, a young couple, smack bang in the middle, wanting to vote Yes but unsure of X, Y and Z. And you talk to them, feeding off your fellow canvasser, and you can feel it working. So, so many people haven’t begun to think about it, and maybe they never would have. But you’ve engaged them, they’ll think about it and talk about it. They will.
Yes was in the majority yesterday. Tomorrow it likely won’t be, but I’ll know that going in, it’s the demographic. So it’s relative – sheesh, how many clichéd platitudes can I cram in here? – but you will have your victories, and you will have made a difference. Hey, count yourself lucky that you’ve got so many folk to convince!
Chin up!
O/T
Salmond Darling poll from Daily record
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
Why is it that when I disappear for a few days all hell seems to break out? 😛
Sorry for going O/T so early but I thought folks would like to get a wee update on the current state of play at the Gretna UKOK towers. 😉
We paid the UKOK Towers a wee flying visit on Saturday and this is what we found. I just hope the link works, if not I’m going to scream and scream and scream! 😀
link to tinyurl.com
The cracks are beginning to show folks.
I mentioned to all things would go quiet until after the games and we should take a wee rest and prepare for the final weeks ahead. The kick off will be the Salmond/Darling debate and maybe we will see whats up the YES campaigns sleeves.
Over the last couple of weeks the BT teams have plodded on with the usual scare tactics and i think most folk have been turned off by the negativity.
Now it’s all hands to the pumps as we enter the final stages and i’m a wee bit excited and a tiny wee bit scared as it is finally here.
Don’t loose heart over No voters , they are the blind or unwilling and to be honest a few of those won’t even vote.
YES voters will vote and we should see a large swell in support everywhere , without the Games to deflect from the issues. I heard many say they were tired of the referendum and the break has done us good . Keep faith.
We are winning. Bugger the polls, they will be twisted and distorted to the NO benefits and play into our fears. No one is immune . Be positive and we will get there no problem.
Over 65% YES is my guess. I find it impossible to find a no voter out my way and YESSERS are everywhere. Wait and see.
Nay, nay and thrice Nay! Scots are SUBSIDY JUNKIES, Scotland is an ECONOMIC BASKET CASE, and Alex Salmond is an EVIL CONJUROR.
FFS, Stu – get your facts straight, can’t you?
I heard it as well, strange thing is it didn’t set any alarm bells ringing as we all know this to be the case. I have no doubt though that some R4 script writer will be getting ‘naughty stepped’ (or should that be Naughtie stopped).
@Lesley Anne
Have they recruited fairies & elves as I can’t see any humans beavering away.
Just got a ‘Scotland Future’ booklet through the door from the postman I think.
There is a lot of good information in it for those who might need more facts before deciding how to vote.
Does anyone know it this booklet will be delivered to all houses in Scotland.
Lesley Anne. Welcome home.
Those pics are actually quite sad really. Some cairn ! Jewsons would have done them 5 ton of type 1 for a couple of hundred £, and made a mountain out of that molehill.
With regard to the BBC quote and the RBS article in Milngavie Herald, there is a distinct clarity in realising that when MSM acually start reporting factual information, they appear to be on the Yes side.
@YESGUY
Damn straight.
Its about who gets out of bed on the day and I’ll have the pup tent parked outside the polling station. 😀
@Lesley-Anne
That’s no way to build a barbecue. 😀
Wow, did I hear that right?
Is that another BBC journalist (and producer?) committing professional suicide on national radio?
@Lesley-Anne
How many cairns are they building!!???
@Defo says: 4 August, 2014 at 12:16 pm:
link to milngavieherald.co.uk
Yes, Defo, and there at the bottom comes the expected idiotic, mantra, credo or just plain lying propaganda :-
”A spokesman for Better Together, the main pro-UK campaign group, said: “As an adviser to Yes Scotland, Sir George Mathewson should tell us what the nationalists’ plan B for replacing the pound in a separate Scotland is”
This mantra is akin to the call of the Oft Spotted Westminster Lyre Bird . This strange creature is distinguished by having an unequal sized wing on opposite sides of its body. This feature imparts a certain bias to the creature. There are two sub-species of this endangered in Scotland species. Depending upon the wing arrangements these strange creatures tend to fly in either port or starboard, (or less technically explained left or right), ever decreasing circles until, by some strange science, they suddenly disappeared.
In this instance the observer of the condition can save the species by a simple, oft repeated, chant of, “Plans a to z are to use Scotland’s own currency, the pound, – preferably in a currency union.”
It is very rewarding to see the two unequal wings equalize and thus save the poor creature. This chant is known by the initials WoS
Listening to the broadcast, brings me to wonder, everyone in the world ( almost ) has vested interests in a no vote.
Where is there a thought that a Independent Scotland will be good, for once, for Scots. They all need us to the point of hysteria, yet without Independence we cannot help our own people.What right do they have to put their own agenda’s before that of a County’s right to help it’s own people.
Well,Scotland first should be our motto, once all is set and done, when we sort out our own mess, we can help the others we choose to. Charity begins at home.
OT – Stu has tweeted a link to a Green party fundraiser.
t.co/rQgtgoiVHT
£50 gets you GP Yes badges est delivery Aug 2014
£100 gets GP Yes Campaign pack est delivery Aug 2015, and
£1000 gets you dinner with Patrick Harvie, but est delivery is OCTOBER 2014.
Nana Smith says:
@Lesley Anne
Have they recruited fairies & elves as I can’t see any humans beavering away.
No sorry Nana there were no fairies working on the UKOK Towers … haven’t you heard of Fairies for independence or elves for independence? 😀
Thanks Defo. I agree it really is a sad, a very sad sight to see. To be honest Defo, getting Jewson just to dump the stanes would have, in fact DID produce a better *ahem* cairn than the Gretna Towers they are building in the background. 😛
Macart says:
@Lesley-Anne
That’s no way to build a barbecue. 😀
Damn it, that’s where I keep going wrong. I keep believing Tory Rory when he talks about his *cough* cairn when in reality he is building us a going away present … an oversized barbecue! 😛
David Wardrope says:
@Lesley-Anne
How many cairns are they building!!???
Well I thought I heard Tory Rory say he was building one *ahem* cairn but looking at the photos I’m beginning to think that he has borrowed Danny Alexander’s calculator to count the number of *cough* cairns he is building! 😉
ps something odd with WOS site, I had to type that post 3 times as it kept disappearing. DDOS attacks again. Sigh. 🙂
@Lesley-Anne
Just like a Tory. Big on promises, short on delivery. 😀
The secret to the myth that Scots get more per head is a selective use of the figures.
“Identified Public Expenditure” is carefully selected record of spending on mainly social expenditure and ignores around a third of expenditure which goes on “national” projects and government procurement which disfavours Scotland greatly.
You could actually make up the same sort of figures about the West Country or Cumbria
Sorry a bit O/T. I have just returned home for a wee weekend visit. Glasgow and Scotland seemed to be buzzing and proud with the Games having been an amazing success. Good news!
Returned to hire car after lunch at INTU to find cars either side with No Thanks stickers, one did have Help for Heroes and an Erskine sticker on. Felt a bit low!
Later just before heading home took a phone call at Mothers from YesScotland. Said no worries I will be back to take mum to the polling booth myself as at 89 she is planning to vote yes for her brother who always wanted an Indy Scotland and for Margo, a woman she always admired. Spent a good few minutes advising her of the general swing to ukip down here and the bad feeling the English have (overheard comments and also the CiF pages of certain English tabloids) regarding all the Scottish ‘freebies’. As in England pays for them all and gets none themselves. The general public here will not allow or vote for anyone who will allow the ‘flawed’ Barnett to continue. The nice lady on the phone was interested to hear this and would pass it on. Feeling on a bit of a high now!
Macart says:
@Lesley-Anne
Just like a Tory. Big on promises, short on delivery. 😀
Surely you are not suggesting what I think you are suggesting Macart, are you? That’s very unlike you to suggest what I think you are suggesting. After all he is only doing what I think you are suggesting to help his best mate, our very own pet Tory, to keep his job next year! 😀
Robert Peffers. I think this particular Lyre bird disappears up itself.
BTW Has anyone heard a peep from the Leaderene of Slab ?
Or has she been shut away until it’s too late for her to do any damage?
I can’t see focus group credibility & performance ratings on her, being anywhere near the good side of rank rotten.
I too just got a ‘Scotland Future’ booklet. Nestling inside was the Scotland Office’s “Facts” liecard. The contrast between the two is telling.
@AllyPally says: August, 2014 at 12:37 pm:
“I’m British, not Scottish” – said in a strong Scottish accent.
When they say that, AllyPally, they are confused between UK and British. Give them a nice big friendly smile and say in your very best Scots accent,” AYE! So am I British”
Starting today, the Scottish Government are sending a wee booklet to every house in Scotland.
Has anyone got their’s yet?
@Lesley-Anne
No way Jose. I’m just wondering if we should contribute the burgers and chicken wings? 😀
O/T Sorry – ‘What’s happening to George Sq Glasgow ?’
CG pendants still up elsewhere but …
Anybody know why the ‘People make Glasgow’ Pendants are now mixed with Onion Jacks all around George Sq?
(Couldn’t take pic – running for train).
Subliminal message from City Council ??
Listened to that broadcast. They said that NI did not contribute any money to uk tax system. Is this true?
OT
Maersk signed with BP for two rigs capable of working at 20,000 psi west of Shetland. The rigs have still to be built. You can bet that Maersk has got a very good deal out of who is paying to build the rigs. This was around three weeks ago.
For drilling rigs 20,000 is very high pressure. Ie there is lots of stuff down there.
O/T
Oh dear, such a busy bee is Ed….
link to mirror.co.uk
Indeed, I got my nice A4 booklet from the SG today, delivered by the postie, and, indeed, there was the HMG card of lies inside it…along with lots of other pieces of junk mail. I feel sorry for the posties delivering that crap for a living.
Nana Smith – would have thought even Ed would have realised ‘Opposition’ might not have been the most tactful message.
This story on the Today programme was a spin off from a broadcast from Northern Ireland which had been on the BBC World Service during the night, I’m not sure of the time but it was still dark – there were interviews with pro Scottish independence and anti Scottish indy, 2 spoke for indy 3 spoke against on 2 occasions, there was an interview with Mark McGuiness who said he was keeping out of it as it was up to the people of Scotland. They interviewed Ian Paisley junior twice and he said that he was very concerned about the financial implications for Ireland because Scotland is a net contributor and if Scotland became independent he thought N. Ireland would suffer, although he did say he thought it unlikely that Scotland would vote Yes.
O/T was the FM at the CG closing ceremony last night?
The TV camera kept returning to shots of David Cameron, but no sign of the Alex Salmond?
Where’s Scottish Skier and the Major these days?
Over 65% YES is my guess. I find it impossible to find a no voter out my way and YESSERS are everywhere. Wait and see.
I was working in Royal Deeside last week, an area I always assumed to be solid NO. Huge YES signs everywhere! I spotted one union flag.
It may just be that NO voters are more shy, however, so no time for complacency.
O/T
Will Ponsonby allow Flipper to spout only SLAB scab policy or will he force Flipper to defend ALL BT policy as the LEADER of BT he is purporting to be.?
PAID to be
Flipper must be forced to defend ConDem,SLAB and Unionist policies that have plundered Scotland for generations.
Flipper has zero power to implement anything and provides the ultimate in Political Deniability for BamCam, Clegg and Mibbeland.
Does he support BamCam`s Boundary Change Legislation that excludes every Scots Tory from getting representation at Westminster and thereby Cedes Scotland to Mibbeland.?
QUARTER OF A MILLION Scots Tories who don`t want Freedom and Voted to exclude themselves from the Commons, the heart of the Union that Tories Pretend to Defend.
O/T
The BP Share price surge today may be a precursor to the New Shetland Oil Field find.(Bigger than ALL North Sea)?.
Perhaps Al Jazeera or RT or Fox news or an American news outlet will let the cat out of the bag.
Or will the”Seven Sisters” (born in Scotland in 1928) show Scots where REAL Power is held.
@Allypally: I just ignore the 1 out of 10 no voters when out canvassing, there are plenty 5 out of 10 folks just waiting to be reassured that a yes vote is the right decision, and if you are spending time with the confirmed no it means you aren’t finding the “Wish I could be confident enough to vote yes” folk.
We only need another few percent to take the lead (if the polls are to believed). Recently I have found that it feels almost as if some of the undecideds have been waiting for us to arrive on their doorstep with the information they need to vote yes.
Seriously, we don’t need the “British not Scottish Alex Salmond is a fat liar” folks that read the Daily Mail, we will get well past 50% without them. Just say “Thanks very much” and move on to the next door.
Luigi
Yes the First Minister was at the closing ceremony, sat left of Prince Edward and the Brunei guy
Alex was with his wife
Think there was only one shot of the group
@Mary Bruce: you are so right.
There are so many people who could be pretty easily persuaded to Yes. When you speak to them they almost talk themselves into it, and it’s pretty easy to give a wee fact or bit of reassurance regarding the fears the No Thanks lot have given them.
Everyone who is able to get out and knock on doors should volunteer to do so. That’s how we will win it.
Macart says:
@Lesley-Anne
No way Jose. I’m just wondering if we should contribute the burgers and chicken wings? 😀
Only if you want to eat cremated burgers and chicken wings Macart. 😀
These two rigs will not be heading to the biggest oil field in the world vambomarbeleye that the MSM and BBC have failed to inform those upity Scots is lying just off their West coast of Shetland by any chance?
I wonder if dear old Cameron knows about this new oil field, this couldn’t be why he was in Shetland recently on a very *ahem* hush hush mission by any chance?
You really have to wonder Nana what wee red Ed has to do with his time if he didn’t have time write a proper note for his wreath. I mean it’s not like this anniversary thingy was sprung on him at the last second or anything was it? 😀
@ Lesley-Anne
Do they have planning permission and/or Building warrant?
Cairn no more!
Sorry meant to say I also bought a copy of the Sunday Herald for mum and one for myself!
What a refreshing change to read a pro Indy slant!
Funny you should mention that, I’ve just received a 2 page spread from Labour through my door with 5 reasons on it to vote no, giving the same 5 reasons the UK government under the guise of Better Together gave.
One of the articles with a smiling picture of Gordon Brown states we receive more £1200 pounds worth, than any other part of the UK. The 2 page spread also says in one article, a no vote will lead to higher mortgage payments, higher credit card bills, higher shopping bills in supermarkets, and less money in the Scottish economy.
Another article says the IFS has stated that leaving the UK means for Scots,huge cuts to vital public services,and tax rises.
Yet another article says,if we leave the UK we will not be able to guarantee our levels of pensions as they are today, nor our welfare benefits nor our health care for the elderly.
On the backpage we have pictures of 4 people claiming to be Scots and reasons why they’re voting no, though when one mentions I’m a proud Scot, it sets alarm bells ringing and I instantly thought about Vote No Borders.
Finally at the bottom of the backpage there’s a cut out section that Labour want you to display on your window with the words I’m voting no.
A two page spread full of lies and fiction, backed by Gordon Brown with Johann Lamont smiling creepily on the front page.
The whole idea of Rory’s Folly is just daft. I mean, would we consider doing the same thing to call for an end to the union? After all, the symbolism could go either way, so why not?
Well, of course we wouldn’t. Anyone who has time to give to the cause of independence is urged to get out there canvassing or delivering papers or organising or speaking at public meetings or putting on plays or musical evenings and things like that. Get the message to as many undecideds as possible.
In contrast, Rory wants to take people out of circulation to a field near Gretna, where they’ll only have themselves to talk to, and spend £55,000 (more that Stu originally asked for to keep Wings going for a year and do his Blue Book) piling stones in a heap.
How many voters does Rory think this is going to win for the No side, you have to ask.
@ Morag
Perhaps we should build a model of an oil rig on our side of the border just to show Westminster we know what they’re up to keeping future oil revenue under wraps!
Thanks, all. Equanimity restored.
A very pleasant couple of hours canvassing this afternoon. Lots of yesses, lots of DK but persuade me. Only a couple of nos.
Home for coffee before having another go. Morale is high, for now, anyway.
I’ll know where to come if it gets me down again.
Macandroid – aye, we could build a wee model of an oil rig on a Scotland base (a la the 80s weather forecast thingy where the announcer jumped to the various bits of GB) and keep it under wraps only to be unveiled on 19th Sept, when all will be revealed. 🙂
Morag: yes, the daft unionists think that the Rory Folly will replicate the lovebombing strategy that they think was so successful for the no campaign in the Quebec referendum.
I just laugh at the unionists trying to follow the Quebec model of campaigning in the hope that it will work here. After all, Canada is quite a nice place, staying attached to Canada is a much more attractive proposition for the Quebecois than staying attached to Westminster is for us. Better Together appear to think that it was using a “No Thanks” logo that won it for them, heh heh.
AllyPally
Even a bad days canvassing is put into perspective when you realise that the no’s are outnumbered by at least 3/1.
Passing through George square in Glasgow today, the commonwealth flags have disappeared with unseemly haste and been replaced with union flags and saltires.
Yes, you done ok with the games but just remember who’s in charge.
If you want to lovebomb people, you have to engage with them. Building a heap of stones in a field is not engaging with people.
Welcome back lesley-ann.
Is that a secure site ?
It just seems a bit insensitive to the local enviroment to leave paint lying about unattended.
Part of the broadcast was NI students in Scottish university’s voting no because they thought it would have a knock on effect in NI if there is a yes vote. How will Scottish independence effect NI? I don’t have a answer. Any body!
ON Topic,
I haven’t a clue what the point of that foot-shooting Today ‘package’ was, riddled as it was with twisted logic. It reminded me of last week’s VNoB ad about Scottish Olympians.
The one amusing highlight was the effrontery of those Sneaky Irish Republicans getting involved in Scottish Independence by, er, not getting involved in Scottish Independence…
I’m slightly narked at the apparent timing of this SG booklet. We got our “Your Choice” booklets ten days ago, and we’ve been putting a lot of effort into hand-delivering them to every household in the area. This has involved a lot of shoe-leather tramping along streets, and a fair bit of petrol as well, getting out to the houses in the country areas. Also wear and tear on the nerves, worrying about No voters jumping out from behind their rose bushes and berating you.
I did about 70 houses yesterday, and I’ve got a group of 65 earmarked to do on the way home this evening. That’ll leave about another 60 fairly isolated places to get to by the end of the week, some of which involve quite long drives up long farm tracks. All that effort, and the SG just plonks another booklet on the punters, courtesy of the postie, right at the same time. Will they even read the one we’re struggling so hard to deliver? Makes you wonder if it’s worth all that effort.
O/T And now the News where you are –
News just in from STV (and its not good folks).
Since the UK govt and Better Together state that the YES vote has stalled in the polls, this is apparently enough evidence to release the result of the debate on Wendesday night between FM and Mr Darling in advance, for the public to digest prior to it taking place, (as is normal procedure)
The usual pundits and our only living psephologist have agreed its a score draw with FM doing well on passion and heart, but Darling providing level headed, stiff responses and having a better grasp of the true facts and figures available from the normal trusted UK government research.
(Sound about right for STV/UK/TV ?)
“If its portrayed any different, I’ll eat Jim Murphy’s milk crate”.
I’ve said before that Scotland’s ‘economic bucket’ will never fill, unless we plug the hole. Once we do that and retain our wealth, Scotland’s social capital will rise.
@ Better Together / No Thanks
Prove me wrong.
Don’t know if it’s happening to anyone else, but I’ve noticed two more Yes stickers appearing on my neighbours windows.
I also noticed more yes stickers on cars than normal today.
It’s like that thing the No campaign fear the most: a ‘positive momentum for Yes’ is beginning to happen.
I was in the Yes Dundee shop a couple of weeks ago getting my own stickers and the guys said that as quick as they get re-stocked, people are coming in emptying their stocks.
So come on folks, if you haven’t done so already, get them stickers/posters etc, up and do your own bit, to add to the growing positive vibe, we are all feeling. 🙂
@Seasick Dave says:
Where’s Scottish Skier and the Major these days?
SS has been away on holiday …
Oh, I just done the daily records FM v Darling poll.
Who will win the dabate? Alex 90% Dalring 10% lol.
How will you vote in the referendum: Yes 88% No 12% hehe!
Now on 60 Yes car stickers in and around Hamilton including two spotted driving through Larkhall, 13 Yes windows/flags plus many, many cars with saltire stickers or flying wee flags from their ariels but not quite confident enough maybe for a Yes sticker. Put one of my spares under a windscreen wiper of a car with a saltire sticker. Felt I was surely on safe ground.
Was in Coatbridge yesterday and expected to see a few Yes cars but sadly none, though spirits were raised by two saltire stickers and two gardens flying Scotland flags, one a Lion Rampant. Saw that rare beast, a No Thanks car on Saturday in Hamilton but as I’d just passed two Yes cars I didn’t mind too much. Only seen 6 No cars. Up until March I’d seen precisely ONE Yes car.
And before anyone says, how do you know you’re not seeing the same cars again and again, some cars are quite distinctive and I have let a few go that I’ve seen twice. If I included all sightings, it would be nearer 80.
In West Linton/Carlops there are four Yes windaes (a fifth disappeared when the house acquired a “for sale” board). A bit narked that some nailed-on Yessers, including a PROMINENT member of National Collective, aren’t showing anything. Also about 7 cars with Yes stickers (including a “women for independence” one).
None of the No people (and believe me, we have more than our share) is showing anything.
Hacks Headlines after Debate Tues
Salmond fails knockout blow
Patrick Roden @ 4.09
Results like that look great and tremendously encouraging but I’d like to be sure that all those YES votes in that poll aren’t just from confirmed Yessers following a link from WoS?
Not wanting to be a downer, just trying to keep things in perspective. On the other hand if someone could verifiably show that these votes came from punters who were just regular readers of the DR site then that would of course be a very different and highly significant matter.
I’m positive I read a piece somewhere recently saying that Westminster planned to spend 1.3 trillion smackers on London infrastructure in the next decade i.e. they plan to spend the same amount of money on London as the present UK debt.
Utter Lunacy.
@David S Briggs
Think this is the future for Boris
link to theconstructionindex.co.uk
@ Morag.
I know what you mean. All this written material and we’re not sure whether it is getting read or just binned.
And there’s still the Blue book to come too.
Might be that face to face conversations are more effective.
Henry. My car was in the driveway but regularly gets driven around Coatbridge. Don’t see many more though with yes stickers.
🙁
It seems the message on the Scottish Ministers wreath is rather different than the rest of the MPs:
link to i2.mirror.co.uk
Comparison:
link to mirror.co.uk
Nana Smith
That would be where the Claire oil field revenues are going then?
@Bugger (the Panda)
Well they will be hoping.
Lets not let the buggers get their filthy hands on any more of Scotland’s resources.
Well, some people will read it and some won’t. It’s the fact that the “Your Choice” booklets, so laboriously hand-delivered, will be landing on many doorsteps simultaneously with a post-delivered booklet from the SG.
Odds on Yes have dropped sharply at Bet365. A couple of days ago it was 5/1, the longest of any bookie, today just 7/2. Others have 9/2 with four (Ladbrokes, Coral, PP and Skybet) showing 4/1.
On the subject of stickers etc. My street has its own equivalent of “Nigel the Highlander” in fact we have two!
I actually felt sorry for the BT activist delivering leaflets because she was buttonholed by these two for over an hour. Anyhoo one of these two “Nigels” (old Fife Labour) has since placed a hand made (brown cardboard with black felt tip) “Better Together” sign in his window with a smaller “No” hand made poster next to it. I think he is avoiding me because he knows that I will rib him endlessly about BT not affording decent window posters what with all those big donations from Tory millionaires and all!
I also suspect that it is he who is removing my strategically placed Yes stickers on lampposts on his regular route to and from his usual destination.
The games people play! 🙂
I also
Lesley-Anne says
“We paid the UKOK Towers a wee flying visit on Saturday and this is what we found.”
Somebody call the police, theres a terrible case of fly tipping in Gretna.
Aye Harry the betting companies will be setting up another big No bet for us (with the help of hmg) as we speak…that’ll bring the Yes odds back up…they are making fortunes, which is all they care about.
Patrick Roden says:
I just done the daily records FM v Darling poll.
Who will win the dabate? Alex 90% Dalring 10% lol.
How will you vote in the referendum: Yes 88% No 12% hehe!
I suspect the fact that Yes folks are more web saavy may be boosting the figures.
However, you will note that 10% Darling, 12% NO … implies quite a few No supports believe Salmond will win.
Aye Harry the betting companies will be setting up another big No bet for us (with the help of hmg) as we speak…that’ll bring the Yes odds back up…they are making fortunes, which is all they care about…
sorry for the double post…arggg…can only assume ddos still problematic!
Hmmm. Wonder if I should nip up to Rory’s cairn and add a wee cobble inscribed; “So long and thanks for all the war dead.”?
@David S Briggs 4:46pm
Some of the NO’s will be getting their cut of the looted Scottish wealth, suppose I can understand their point, although I don’t agree with them.
The remainder of the NO’s are just stupid, very stupid. IMHO
Nowt as strange as folks.
Did you ever wonder why Scottish history was not taught in Scottish schools. Did Mike Russel include it in the new currriculum?
“From the leader of the opposition” what’s been really weird about the whole BetterTogether freak show is how quiet as mice all the Labour MP’s up here have been in the North East of Scotland.
Clearly the media and the BBC is UKOK’s campaign but the Press and Journal certainly never mention anyone in Westminster, Frank Doran, not a peep, Anne Begg, invisible and so on. Interesting tactics, not campaigning to save their jobs for life but it’s clear teamGB media strategy, monster/ignore Salmond and Holyrood, stay completely out of it Westminster Labour, leave all the endless Darling/Carmicheal are gods to the news rooms, plus Farage!
jon esquierdo says:
Did you ever wonder why Scottish history was not taught in Scottish schools.
1960s Ayrshire. I was taught Scottish history almost exclusively. Primary through to Ordinary grade. Wallace, Bruce, Stuarts, Mary, John Knox, Covenanters, Jacobites.
When did they stop teaching it?
Having said that. I wasn’t taught the realities of Empire and industrialisation. I suspect that has never been taught in schools. That will only come with Independence.
TMitJ @5.27
The reason they cant afford window posters is because of all the wages they have to pay those kids from Walthamstow,
Principles dont come cheap you know?
O/T To put things into perspective, one of my Pals who I think is a no but I could be wrong set up a “fun” group on Facebook called Shit Adviser, basically folk on Arran have a little bit of Fun giving reviews of various toilets visited. Face Book Likes on Shit Advisor 291 Facebook likes on Better Together Arran 220
Thanks to my cousin Isobel for noticing this 🙂
Fat Unionist Bias Bastard Ponsonby tells STV viewers, Darling has a “large” lead” in the polls. What recent poll gives Darling a large lead?
I don’t have any confidence in STV or their Ipsos Mori poll, to be announced minutes before the debate starts tomorrow. Maybe this is where Ponsonby gets the “large lead” from.
STV/Ponsonby are as bias as BBC Scotland.
Stv are itv’s bbc scotland. Ponsonby does what he is told by his london paymasters while kissing their arses at the same time. Do what we tell you bernard or your well paid cushy little number will be terminated.
I think Stu should ressurect ‘Wingdows for YES’… I’m sure somewhere in the past few years there was a ‘send in you photos’ thing… might just have been of Saltires?
But my YES stuff went up on my Windows last night as soon as the CWG’s ended. On the way home from work today (short walk), I counted no less than 5 properties bedecked in YES that were not there yesterday. I think I wasn’t the only one with that idea.
I am ready with a photo if Stu wants to do something with this… im sure it would encourage all those competitive types out there 🙂
EBC Scottish news. The Scottish troops were known as tommys. How ignorant and disrespectful.
They really are the pits. They either don’t know their subject or are just using it for anti Scottish propaganda.
I’d be totally gobsmacked if this Ipsos Mori poll prior to the debate shows anything other than a large No lead. Ponsonby has already set the tone o with his “Salmond has it all to do” comment on tonight’s 6 o’clock news.
Expect the usual minutiae of detail being extracted from AS and the usual cuddly bunny treatment of Darling. Beginning to think this debate is nothing but a set-up and a waste of time.
Even is AS wipes the floor with Darling it would take something to have it reported like that in our biased MSM.
@galamcennalath says:4 August, 2014 at 6:03 pm:
“1960s Ayrshire. I was taught Scottish history almost exclusively.”
Indeed. 1940s/eary50s and taught by one of two best teacher I’ve ever. The other was her brother. It has remained a great interest ever since. That lady made the history come alive.
Have they really stopped teaching Scots who they are now? Mind you I met a teen boy this week. (50%/50% USA/Scottish), and though clued up on history until the end of the ice ages knew nothing whatsoever of either Scottish or USA history since either had a written history. He was, though, quick and willing to learn.
Bloody hell, led by donkeys or what….
link to theguardian.com
(Sorry, haven’t read all the comments above so apologie if I repeat any points already made.)
The MSM and the BBC cannot admit the truth. That Scotland is a wealthy, vibrant, modern country that would do well independent, shot of the inefficient, patronage-based Westminster system, including 850 unelected “lords” (more than elected MPs) in the legislature. That is, unelected people making laws that affect everybody.
Westmister siphons off Scotland’s wealth and then “gifts” back some pocket money and, to add insult to injury, calls Scots scrongers.
These Establishment Empire throwbacks want to preserve the Empire’s “clout” and their own privileged positions. Refusing to look the truth in the face: the empire is gone and the UK is just another (biggish, populationwise) European country. The British empire and Engish supremacy is gone. Kicking at modern realities like thwarted toddlers, the English establishment latches on to a new cause: the EU. The EU are threatening the British (=Engish privileged class) way of life. So many human rights and employee rights.
Scotland MUST get away from the rotting corpse of the UK state and make a better country for all the people of Scotland.
You don’t see any of the countries that have become independent of the UK hankering back – just look at the Commonwealth Games! Ask Usain Bolt if Jamaica should be ruled from Westmister and he’d probably die laughing, are you serious?!
Re my post above.
Part of the eradication of the Scots and our history. The Englification and eradication of anything Scottish by HMG & EBC. What a bunch of nasty nasty people.
The unionist media has already written up its review of tomorrow’s debate.
Lumilumi says
” patronage-based Westminster system, including 850 unelected “lords” (more than elected MPs) in the legislature. That is, unelected people making laws that affect everybody.”
You just reminded me of a news report I heard on radio two today, when it was said there is not enough room in the house if all the Lords choose to turn up at the same time, and they’re asking the older duffers to retire to make room for the younger duffers,
I have an idea. 😉
ref. Paradox comment, listening to ITV News at lunchtime heard the correspondent in Belgium use the usual “England” instead of Britain and empire in the context of the Great War.
What a slur on the memory of the 150000 Scots fallen, and the hundreds of thousands RUK and empire war dead only 1 DAY after the ending of the “commonweath games ” here in Scotland.
One thing that did impress was the message on the wreath of poppies from the FM. So typical of the man that he dedecated it from the people of Scotland and not used the chance of putting himself to the fore.
Do you know that the House of Lords is the second largest political administration in the World.
Second to the Chinese Politbureau.
The BBC however has a senior manager structure larger than the Chinese Politbureau.
BtP says
“Do you know that the House of Lords is the second largest political administration in the World.”
Just what I was telling the wife in the car today, right bafore she gave me a dead arm and told me to keep counting the yes posters. 🙂
john king says: I have an idea. 😉
Does it involve chemical weapons ?
Eh, wasnt that comment an hour early for the shift change at GCHQ Defo?
someones name just got added to a list!
1960s Ayrshire. I was taught Scottish history almost exclusively
You must have had good teachers gala or were lucky, I got Hastings 1066, Norman conquest, Dark Ages, Motte & Baily castles etc..
Only learned of Bruce and Wallace through Burns’s work
This pretty sums up the British Establishment to me 🙂
link to youtube.com
classic Yes Prime Minister … ‘If the right people don’t have power’
Hmmmm : If you saw STV 6pm news Ponsonby & Blair MacDougall …
My post at 3.55pm now seems somewhat spooky (?) or is it just that we can read the Scottish meadia so easily and see them for what they are ?
FFS they are a useless bunch the lot of them.
What time is the debate on tomorrow?
@Decanmore
ala Frank Spencer
Im a Barbarian!
a real Barbarian!
hhmmm.
Macandroid says:
@ Lesley-Anne
Do they have planning permission and/or Building warrant?
Cairn no more!
Funny I have been thinking that ever since Tory Rory *AHEM* announced his new *cough* venture. However I thought it was more important that I make enquiries with the Health and Safety department at Dumfries and Galloway council. Unfortunately they don’t deal with site H&S so have passed on my *ahem* enquiries to the Health and Safety Executive. 😉 That said I am now thinking that they have been *cough* building for long enough now that a wee *cough* enquiry with D&G planning department might be forthcoming. 😀
The great news about the building site of the Gretna Towers Morag is that Tory Rory wants to raise £55,000 but as of today he has managed to raise only £8,999 with 37 days left! 😛
john king says:
Lesley-Anne says
“We paid the UKOK Towers a wee flying visit on Saturday and this is what we found.”
Somebody call the police, theres a terrible case of fly tipping in Gretna.
I have to admit john, when I saw what confronted me at Gretna on Sunday I was shocked, no I really was. If I had not seen the sign directing me to the *ahem* cairn I’d have been thinking exactly the same as you. 😛
And Finally!
We had a Labour personage at our door this morning, what a happy chappie he was … NOT! 😛
Anyway, he tried to hand my partner an envelope, which she refused to accept. He said it addressed personaly to her but she still refused it. He then tried to hand her another envelope addressed to me which she again refused to accept. Finally he tried to pass over a Labour lie leaflet to which she said I’m not taking that it’s full of lies. By this time she had reached our truck and opened the driver’s door. FINALLY the penny dropped with Mr Labour personage, “Oh you’re YES supporters” he said. “Aye we are and you’re blind as well as stupid” she said. He got a wee bit defensive at this point and she asked him if he had actually read the Labour lie sheet. When he admitted he had she reminded him why he was stupid. 😉
The good news is that Mr Labour personage will now have to return to his Labour H.Q. and hand back their two letters to us and probably explain why we would not accept them. 😛
On the list already John :-0
@john king
Your Frank Spencer reference there was spectacularly obscure, but I got it!
Findlay Farquaharson
I think you will find that STV do not have any London paymasters, unless your thinking of investment funds or pension fund managers who have a shareholding in STV
STV is a Scottish company completely independent of ITV
But it does piss me off at the level of bias guff their news department comes out with at times
With the BBC, they are beholden to the Government, despite the fact that its the viewers that pay for them
With STV its the advertising revenue that pays them. So they don’t have the same excuses
@Desimond 5.00pm. Good juxtaposition of images, so imagine my shock on reading the Guardian website which is stating that “other guests – from Miliband to Nick Clegg and Alex Salmond – laid wreaths with only their titles printed in a large scrawl…”
looking at that “shit adviser” facebook page,
I saw a picture that I would love to see placed behind Alex Salmonds back on the set at STV so that every time Darling looks over at salmond,
he’ll see behind him, WHERES YOUR GOD NOW?
with and empty toilet roll beneath it. 🙂
I am fed up , I have boycotted BBC news , so where can I get Scottish news either political or domestic , radio is only the stuff sent up from London so where can I get Scottish news .
Are we the only country in the world not provided with a national news agency ?
I watch Sky news , nothing Scottish
STV short snippets throughout the day
emmm I’m struggling , where can I get Scottish news on television
I can resort to newspapers , well that’s a laugh , one sided and hardly impartial
So why do I have to suffer a news black out and the rest of the population too , Why do we in our collective put up with this , What’s wrong with us that we cannot get together and do something about it .
What other nations accept this situation as normal ? If I lived in New Zealand or Belgium . do I get just Australian or French news , I bet I don’t , we stupid daft Scots seem to think it is acceptable to listen to news stories concerning England only to confuse the issue and think it means Scotland too ( see BBC UKIP bombing) and the resulting election of an MEP in Scotland a total anathema
The problem with writing here is that no one of BT no thinkers are going to read it ,
I just wish we were a normal nation in the family of nations in this world going about our hopes and dreams like any other
Why do we have so many doubters in our midst happy to be parasites living off another country believing that better together is a better thing than being a parasite .
Is it not better to be an individual independent of thought than be living off the back of the efforts of others ?
Please if you are undecided think of what I have said grasp the nettle and vote YES and give your children a future in a new country with hope and aspirations
Edward
I thought Trinity Mirror owned about 20% of STV, or whatever name they are using this week?
Edward says
“With STV its the advertising revenue that pays them. So they don’t have the same excuses”
They still have to be licensed by the government to transmit programmes.
link to huffingtonpost.co.uk UKOK meeja’s gone even more weirder than usual.
Ralph Topping, who stepped down last week as CEO of Britains largest bookie, Wm Hill, will declare for YES tomorrow according to SKY. He says Unionists are guilty of political posturing and a statement will appear in a rag tomorrow.
Quentin
AS was too smart for them and wrote that it was from the Scottish People.
Cameron was given overnight to compose and write a personal message. Only he was given that,
DC is a shoite.
OT
Anyone seen this, scroll down the page and you will see the Wings trailer 🙂
link to news.stv.tv
Regards STV and their IPSOS MORI poll tomorrow, which is set to put Salmond on the back foot from the off, am I right to say that some folk on here took part in the poll and that the questions were straight out of project fears favourite top 10. If so, surely the Scot Gov will be aware and will question its validity if its skewed to one side.
link to news.sky.com
Sir Alan Cochrane has touch of the vapours this evening
link to telegraph.co.uk
Something not right at all
Did you read Darlings interests Hood?
“Interests: Listening to music such as Pink Floyd, Coldplay, and Leonard Cohen. (We don’t believe a word of this.)”
Leonard Cohen?
no effin wonder he’s such a misarable get! 🙂
And we’re back to normal vote No Graun service with another BetterTogether whinge from Libby Carrelll in Embro. Usual we don’t want to make anyone foreigners stuff and interview with the poshest man in Edinburgh that ran our portrait gallery like a mini me National Gallery in London because that’s what UKOK provinces do do, what.
link to theguardian.com
It’s like watching a cow with the skitters Graun style.
I did and was pi$$ed off that he says Pink Floyd, will feel I need a wash the next time I listen to dark side of the moon 🙁
Wonder if his favourite Floyd track is Lost For Words. Or maybe Run Like Hell.
heedtracker
Cochers praising the SNP govt !
He still manages to get a dig in re the Holyrood & Edinburgh Tram building fiasco’s though.
Remind me, which administration set those particular projects rolling ?
Quentin. Comfortably Numb.
Defo/Quentin,
Nah, will be Brain Damage I think.
Leonard Cohen is music to slit your wrists by.
“The former boss of Britain’s biggest bookmaker will declare his support on Tuesday for an independent Scotland, arguing that pro-union campaigners have been guilty of “political posturing” whose arguments lack economic logic.”
Article posted by Nana Smith at 8.02PM
It seems he is going to write a more detailed article in a newspaper. Look forward to reading that.
As AS is a horsy man, could the made-up skewed poll, whose results will be fed to him at the start of the debate, be his handicap weight to give Darling a pony’s chance.
@ Murray McCallum
May be a great one for AS to pull out of the hat, especially if the odds on the referendum have been fixed.
BtP
Even a non gambler like me has put some dosh on a Yes. Paddy Power were offering a matched bet of up to £100. Therefore effectively 10:1 for a £100 stake. The odds just don’t seem right.
Will be interesting to see how / if they move in next 4 weeks.
The MSM/No campaign’s narrative is that it is certain to be a No vote on 18th September. I suspect they do not actually have a clue. Curtise has been brought in to tell us all that No is a certainty. Do we trust this man?
Off topic, but worth a look.
Fisherman has a rant.
link to facebook.com
“He still manages to get a dig in re the Holyrood & Edinburgh Tram building fiasco’s though.
Remind me, which administration set those particular projects rolling ”
I dont think even Cochrane would be THAT stupid Defo,
only a half wit could blame the SNP for the parliament building ,but some still try to pin the trams on the SNP’s tail!
We could always send Darling to the Fletcher Memorial Home.
@ BtP, John King and others above
As a Finn, with our unicameral PR Parliament, the idea of a bicameral parliament is strange.
The US system, in which the senators (upper house) are elected seems as OK as any FPTP system is.
But the UK system! It’s good that most of the hereditary peers got kicked out… But then Cons, Labs and LibDems stuffed the “upper” house with their friends and donors, as “life peers”.
Vermin in ermine.
The hereditary peers might’ve been a better choice, after all, if the upper house remains unelected. Lord this or that or wherever might not have tribal party affiliations but do their own thing – which would presumably be the thing for the rich land-owning classes. But at least you’d know what you’re getting.
It’s ridiculous that the UK House of Commons (elected) has 650 members and the unelected House of Lords has 850 members.
Finland makes do with 200 MPs, one of which is the Speaker so in effect we have 199 MPs. Cleverly designed as an odd number so there cannot be a tie.
That’s one of my worries about the Holyrood Parliament. There are 129 MSPs, one of them becomes Presiding Officer (Speaker), so in effect there are 128 MSPs – an even number, so it’s theoretically possible to have a tie. After which presumably the Presiding Officer would cast the deciding vote though he/she doesn’t normally vote in Parliament.
My second worry about the Scottish Parliament is to do with the building.
I love the architecture and fittings etc., I think it’s beautiful, quirky, modern, just what an independent Scotland would be.
But as the chamber is, there’s only room for 128 MSPs (the 129th being the Presiding Officer). Probably because Labour wanted Holyrod to be a parish council, not too many representatives of the people in the wee pretendy parliament.
Finland got our own proper parliament with full democratic francise, even for women in 1906 – New Zealand like to say they got there before us as regards women but they didn’t give unconditional vote to the Maori so Finland was first in the world with full franchise – anyway, back in 1906 – 11 years before Finnish independence – we got our modern, democratic Parliament.
The number of MPs was set at 200. Back then, the population was about 3 million. Now the population is about 5.6 million but we still have only 200 MPs.
An independent Scotland should have around 200 MPs to properly represent the people of Scotland. But can the wonderful, magnificent Holyrood chamber accommodate more democracy?
(Sorry for a long post, again!)
I wonder why some posters on here think it clever, sophisticated or productive to call journalists “fat unionist bias bastards” particularly as they are nothing of the kind. According to the accepted polling “experts” Better Together have a big lead in the polls.
A news journalist mentions this in a report and he is a “fat unionist bias bastard”
As a matter of interest Bernard Ponsonby (who caught George Osborne trying to escape out a back door in Edinburgh after his sermon on the pound) is not a unionist bias bastard though I am in no position to pass remark on his figure.
I do not expect any news outlet to operate as a YES propagandist.
We all know of course that Better Together do not have a big lead or even a lead at all because we are out canvassing. News reporters report information given to them.
I am happy that we are not shouting that we are winning. That is the behaviour of an organisation that suspects it is losing
Bernard may be a Republican for Ireland and a Unionist for Scotland, like the whole of the Celtic Board. He is a Lib Dem and I cannot agree with his politics, but I cannot accuse him of being unprofessional and biased in his interviews and presentation, unlike many of his colleagues.
I don’t have to reach for the remote when he is on, becuase he keeps his own politics apart and his integrity intact.
Anyone who knows me know I wouldn’t say this lightly.
What DMcH says!
All Alex Salmond has to say after being ambushed by the inevitable bad-for-Yes poll is point to the more favourable polls recently including two in the Daily Record that had the same result – Yes 47, No 53. Or the Sunday Herald poll from June that was 48-52. Even the Sunday Times had one at 47-53. And given how far out the polls were in 2011, Alex can reassure concerned voters that there is no need to get too het up about the polls, keep calm and carry on or as the t-shirt says -Haud Yer Wheest An’ Get Oan Wi It!
It isn’t helpful to use words like that DMH.
Who was it?
Alex Salmond has to put up with crap about his appearance and we condemn it. Can’t condone it from our side of the fence.
Ah it’s caz m or whatever.
Stupid arse or what?
Bugger (the Panda) says:
4 August, 2014 at 8:19 pm
Leonard Cohen is music to slit your wrists by.
I think I’ll order Darling the full back catalogue then.
Pink Floyd? “Pigs on the Wing” surely!
@ Dave McEwan Hill
+1
bunter
I was one of the “youngsters” who took part in the ipsos/mori poll, heavily slanted towards pro uk answers.
Think the girl was a bit taken aback with my answers 🙂
And STV News at 6pm said it will be running a different WW1 story every day this week. Why?
All the Unionists seem to think that this WW1 thing is certain to turn people back to voting NO.
And remember Westminster/BBC instructions for tonight are to turn all your lights on at 10pm.
“I think I’ll order Darling the full back catalogue then.”
For some things you just need RAB THE DOUBTER. 🙂
Oh btw Stu gave Alan Cochrane the EMERGENCY KITTEN!
Oi any of you lot actually listen to Leonard Cohen’s lyrics? And be very careful darlings I am an afficianado. I also knew where Syd Barrett lived, in a little house etc.
I stand by my statement that Ponsonby is a FAT UNIONIST BASTARD.
“I stand by my statement that Ponsonby is a FAT UNIONIST BASTARD.”
caz-m
Aye, but he’s no’ a bad fat unionist basturt.
The Butcher Paula?
@Defo, looks like you were right about the FT apparently there’s a lot more oil in the North Sea than WM would have us believe. Who knew! link to twitter.com
“The Butcher”
I came upon a butcher,
he was slaughtering a lamb,
I accused him there
with his tortured lamb.
He said, “Listen to me, child,
I am what I am
and you, you are my only son.”
Well, I found a silver needle,
I put it into my arm.
It did some good,
did some harm.
But the nights were cold
and it almost kept me warm,
how come the night is long?
I saw some flowers growing up
where that lamb fell down;
was I supposed to praise my Lord,
make some kind of joyful sound?
He said, “Listen, listen to me now,
I go round and round
and you, you are my only child.”
Do not leave me now,
do not leave me now,
I’m broken down
from a recent fall.
Blood upon my body
and ice upon my soul,
lead on, my son, it is your world.
@Harry Mcaye – agree this is all Salmond has to do. However we’re all assuming the Mori poll will be bad for yes based on the questions asked. What happens if it shows the gap closing?
If the gap is shown to be closing at the start of the interview how would Darling close this issue down? He can point to polls saying No is consistently in the lead but he would still be open to the charge that the momentum is with YES and at this stage momentum is everything
If the No campaign are behind this poll I think they may have picked a high risk strategy with a lot to loose and little to gain
John – I’m not sure we should take up an entire thread discussing those lyrics, let’s save it till we share a barbeque. I’ll make some lamb kebabs.
Im up for that Paula. 🙂
I wonder why some posters on here think it clever, sophisticated or productive to call journalists “fat unionist bias bastards” particularly as they are nothing of the kind.
Not the language I’d use. Not witty enough. However…
Seeing BBC’s Brian Taylor always makes me think he’s about to burst.
As long as you like your greens John dear.
Impossible Mori poll.By phone,Edinburgh.
First question if the referendum were tomorrow should Scotland be an independent country how would you vote?
(Paraphrase) What currency do you think will be used in an independent Scotland given that all major parties say they would not permit Sterling. Answer Sterling! Little giggle and are you sure?
(Paraphrase) If there was a YES vote what would you miss most,NHS,BBC,Defence,National. Lottery?Answer none of these ,but hey ,what a question without allowing qualification.
Many more questions but most very leading.You have been warned!
Bugger (the Panda)
Re STV As far as I know and can see, Trinity Mirror don’t have any holdings in STV Group
Largest shareholder currently is Odey Asset Management with 16.77%. In fact most of the holders are asset management companies
I have to admit that I am also a shareholder (very very small one)
Impossible was a good substitute but did mean Ipsos.
As long as you like your greens John dear.
Sprouts on a kebab?
Oh well I’ll try anything once (within reason) 😉
Dave Hill, the Ponsonby statement is only my personal opinion, you understand.
I apologise if it offended you or anyone else on here, we are all in this for the same ends. We just take different routes on how we get there.
Ponsonby was seen going into a meeting on Friday, with members of the Ipsos Mori team. The very company who are running the poll that Ponsonby will announce the result of minutes before the debate starts.
He is conspiring against the Independence Campaign.
“Seeing BBC’s Brian Taylor always makes me think he’s about to burst.”
I have found myself fantisizing about being around him when I have a pin in my hand and watching him pphhhaaarrrpp all over the place!
Did anybody find out why Cameron made the flying visit to Shetland with Carmichael ?
As I mentioned yesterday if you take the ludicrous YouGov polls out of the equation the average of all the others is in the high forties. (We win on this as we have huge advantage in determination to vote and feet on the ground.)
That is the service however that Labour supporting YouGov is supplying to Labour/Better Together/Curtice
The odds are contracting again following the phantom £400,000 bet on NO. Last weeks 10/1 on over 55% for YES is now down to 6/1 on Ladbrokes and over 54% is only 4/1 on BetVictor.
4/1 on a simple Yes vote with Ladbrokes is hugely generous.
Get on – now that most of Scotland is talking about the huge oil find that the Government is trying to keep secret
“Did anybody find out why Cameron made the flying visit to Shetland with Carmichael ?”
I think thats where they’re holding Cochrane and CameronB,
or it was to tell BP to keep thier big trap shut, you choose. 🙂
Oh dear! Was that oil story supposed to be secret. I wrote a big post on my fb page this pm & by now it’s reached NZ, Oz, Canada, US. S Pacific & SE Asia as well as UK. Me & my big mouth. Sorree!!
@Famous15
I took part in a telephone interview conducted by one of the polling companies about three or four weeks ago(I cannot recall which one) and all of the questions were loaded. But it did make me think how they can possibly accurately account for those of us who are strongly in favour of yes when there are no options for our views in these multi-choice questions. Equally we cannot know whether they discount or ignore our responses and simply carry on ‘fishing’ for respondents that fit their profiling. I do not trust these polls, they are not conducted properly and merely serve as a mechanism to try and convince the DK’s that yes is losing.
@john king – I have found myself fantisizing about being around him when I have a pin in my hand and watching him pphhhaaarrrpp all over the place!
Like this….
link to youtube.com
I’m still a bit confused by this polling lark. Do you have to make the ffort and contact Ipsos-Mori to register with them, like you do with YouGov? The average man and woman in the street is never going to do this so are we left with the political obsessives on both sides?
And if Ipsos are asking these ridiculously biased questions, will that be made clear to the viewers tomorrow night? No, don’t bother answering that one. AS will surely know what was asked? If he does, he should spill the beans on live TV. I’m sure most viewers would be shocked that other questions at all were asked and not just Yes or No, never mind how biased in favour of No they were.
Carrie. The FT is the last bastion of impartial reporting in the UK MSM. Their agenda is to provide factual info for those investors, business peeps ect who pay their wages. Giving out duff info would ruin the trust they have built up, and which they trade on.
Never mind rumours of oil finds, do we have an analysis of what is known to be there?
What is our latest analysis of the non-oil Scottish economy?
Many of us do facts and figures, many of us do the face-to-face,
time to help each other.
Top right of the page is ‘Ask Wings’, I suggest we use it more.
Croompenstien @9.50
Pretty much.
Had a wee blether with my English friend Nigel earlier tonight. Nigel always tries to surprise me and tonight was no exception. He whips out his wee i-pad thingy and instructs me, “Watch this”. It is a video clip of David Cameron saying, “If Scotland leaves there is no way back”. Nige says, “What have you got to say to that, Auld Bob, are you not rather afraid”? I replied, “Och! No! Nigel, I’m sure England will soon get over not ever getting back together with us again and will not take their loss too badly”. How the hell I kept a straight face I’ll never know.
Well that it then, the whole world knows our buisness now,
why didnt you just go ahead and put it in the FT Joanne?
OH!
Robert, honey, I see that cringe is evaporating from the Scottish psyche!!!
Cam the Bam flew to Shetland to prove that London was nearer than Edinburgh to Shetland and to reassure the White Settlers who moved to the Artic Circle to get away from the rat race that he was the King rat.
caz-m
You didn’t offend me. I don’t offend. But I see little point in offending people who have to report our efforts.
I can’t see how a political journalist meeting a high profile company that does political polling is anything other than perfectly normal particularly as they may use that company’s polling in a programme he is about to do.
Bernard Ponsonby is far from daft (after all he went to Holyrood SS, one of my old schools) and I do know some people who are acquainted with him and he is not a biased unionist nor a bastard.
He stood as a Liberal at the Jim Sillars by election in Govan and he most certainly is not a Labour hack like a lot of our “journalists”.
He does however work in the framework of a commercial organisation that has a huge interest in protecting its revenues and he will be charged to be very balanced.
I have had a lot of information about the pressures STV is under not to offend a lot of its advertisers
heedtracker,
“Sir Alan Cochrane has touch of the vapours this evening
link to telegraph.co.uk
Something not right at all”
It might be the result of the knockout blows he got from Stuart during that radio encounter.
Well, that’s all the house lights on.
@Gerry
Just make sure the Local Slab ARP doesn’t clock you ! 🙂
Having relations who died saving the world, I can only afford a candle anyway.
What would happen if for some reason Darling has to pull out of the debate with Salmond?
Who would take his place? Brown? Cameron? Carmichael?
It is THE debate of 300 years and the best the union has been able to put forward is an opposition, back bench MP.
Rock @9.59
that wasnt us there btw,
we’ve all been here all night, haven’t we guys?
eh guys?
GUYS?
Guys John dear?
Carrie, I forgot to say, even if this is ‘massive oil find’ is only rumour, it sets us up to get the McCrone report subterfuge message out to the uninformed.
I mentioned “trust” in the FT, and that’s what voters need in those they vote for, and who’s information they are being given.
How can you trust an establishment telling you to vote No, who are revealed to be proven liars and thiefs ?
link to en.wikipedia.org
donald anderson,
““I stand by my statement that Ponsonby is a FAT UNIONIST BASTARD.”
caz-m
Aye, but he’s no’ a bad fat unionist basturt.”
Isn’t he the unionist bastard who claimed the debate between Nicola Sturgeon and Anas Sarwar was a draw?
Sounds bad enough to me.
@Paula Rose says: 4 August, 2014 at 9:57 pm:
“Robert, honey, I see that cringe is evaporating from the Scottish psyche!!!”.
That is something I have never suffered from. Never tugged a forelock in my life.
Ken says
“Just make sure the Local Slab ARP doesn’t clock you ! :-)”
what? like this you mean?
link to youtube.com
caz-m: There were various reports on people being polled by Ipsos Mori, it appears that there may be two different polls going on. I read of someone saying they were polled by them with a short, straightforward list of questions and it was definitely STV as the last question they were asked was were they happy to be contacted by STV.
Anyone remember who it was? If this is correct then hopefully it will be a straightforward poll without preamble, bias or dodgy questions (fingers crossed).
James over on Scot goes Pop has a story of another mega-poll by Ipsos Mori which is likely a different one going on, probably the one with all the leading questions.
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk
On the subject of betting and the CEO of Wm Hill coming out for yes, if I was a bookie and I was expecting to lose a fortune on a yes result I would be praying for a sucker to come in and put £400,000 on a no vote…
“Guys John dear?”
huh, and girls.
I can’t forgive Bernard Ponsonby for his tour of Scotland where he struggled to find anyone voting yes and just so happened to ‘bump’ in to rabid naysayers, he also struggled to find a yes voter in Dundee??
“I have had a lot of information about the pressures STV is under not to offend a lot of its advertisers”
Unfortunately in order not to upset their paymasters they appear to chose instead to upset at least 50% of their viewers. Let’s not kid ourselves the media in Scotkand/UK is distinctly bias against Yes and for exactly the reasons you state.
It is beholden to either the Westminster government or big business. It all comes down to money and power.
Robert I did not suggest you did – I was remarking upon it’s evaporation in general.
damn, grammatical inaccuracy, sorry
“An earlier version of this interview misrepresented some data on life expectancy and GDP.”
gerry, it’s like Blackpool illuminations here.
Rock, Flipper is the Tories sacrificial cetacean. He always was, probably even knows it. Power, and then it’s loss turned him into (even more of) a fruitloop. Same goes for Broon, and the king of the deluded Bliar.
Apologies not interview, feature.
Gerry for christ sake will you put some lights out I can see your house lit up from here, jeesh!
I agree about Ponsy’s tour and not finding a Yes in Scotland. He probably is a no, but I do think he is a good host and he’ll definitely turn the heat on Darling and be neutral.
Starting to feel the momentum though. Was around Angus today and seen about 9 Yes posters either on houses, cars, and not one UKOK. I’ve not see one UKOK/BT thing anywhere.
Went to the pub on Saturday. Met old pals from school. 9 yes 3 no 😉
@ John.
That’s my outside light, it’s usually never on!
🙂
When we were down in Devon last year gerry we were sitting in the garden with the guy who owned the cottage we were staying in and he got a phone call, turns out it was from the local tory councellor busy body calling him up to complain about his outside light polluting the darkness in the village,we were packed off to bed so as not to anny the little hitler in the village,
I left our bathroom light on all night.
annoy (sic)
Turn your effing lamps out, there’s no more oil!
@ Dave McEwan Hill, fat sensitive BetterTogether unionists have spent a long time telling Scotland we’re fat, lazy, bad diet gobbling, cheap hooch slugging, exercise dodging, deep fried heart attacks in waiting.
It’s all been at the core of monstering Scotland so now, super fatties like Bliar MacDoball or bloated what’s her face labour in Scotland health sokeswoman, can bloody well like it or lump it.
One of these days Ian Fat Boy Taylor, is going to come bouncing down those stairs at Holyrood like a great big BBC Union Jack beach ball, heading straight for the mess, dodging the salad bar.
@Paula Rose says: 4 August, 2014 at 10:16 pm:
“Robert I did not suggest you did – I was remarking upon it’s evaporation in general.”,
Och! NO! Lass, I wasn’t suggesting you were. Just that it was never in my own nature to treat anyone as my better. Mind you I never treat anyone as my lesser either. From my schooldays I always seem to have had at least someone tagging on. So much so, that when working and when management had a problem with people with handicap, certain illness’ or disablement they ended up under my wing.
One notable case was a very able young apprentice who couldn’t get a craftsman to accept him. The reason being he was epileptic but the condition was under good control. I accepted him and the lad turned out to be exceptionally bright. He went on to great things. I thank old Grannie for that. Wir aa Jock Tampson’s Bairns and A man’s a man fir aa that. If you came to that wee village and said you were looking for Grannie – you were directed to my Grannie’s door. Her step grandkids included all sorts, all colours, all creeds and from all over the World. The Rev Jock Tampson didn’t have a look-in.
“Turn your effing lamps out, there’s no more oil!”
Noo if we rendendered doon Bernard Ponsonby there wid be enough oil fur us a!
ah’ll get ma onesy. 🙁
night night.
Robert xx john king – good idea xx
YES flags/posters going up. From the Central belt to the North YES 10/1
Dave Hill
I do hope your right about Ponsonby and I am proved wrong.
We’ll find out tomorrow night.
Bernie’s no’ that fat.
I wonder if anyone from STV/Better Together is reading this, they’ll be saying, they’re even arguing amongst themselves about how fat our old Ponsy boy is. lol
Hello there STV.
got my b/let this morning
STV are making money out of the televised Debate.
High advertising revenues.
To fund Mr Ponsonby’s excessive salary.
Bernard Ponsonby last night said that both Salmond and Darling would be pitching at the undecided voters.
There is also an underclass of Daily Record back page NObody readers who never watch political programmes; documentaries or historical programmes and who definitely could nor concentrate for one minute on tonight’s debate, yet have their minds firmly made up because of this or that perceived reason which is certainly not based on facts or logic. You can almost guarantee that they have prejudices around one or two football teams based in Glasgow and cloud cuckoo land.
I heard people in a pub talking about the DVD “Wolf of Wall St”. Their perception was not of the predatory nature of capitalism and decadence of Wall St, or the City of London, or more specifically bankers and stockbrokers who produced nothing and cared of nothing but money. All they got from the film was the sex and foul language, which they thought was great. They were the poor people you see standing outside the pub doorway in all weathers, smoking and coughing and walking in and out of the bookies, hoping to strike it rich on a scratch card or lottery. Few of them will be interested in tonight’s debate and find “politics” boring and alien to their fixed and inherited prejudices.
Cameron flew in a private jet. Last time in an Air Force (private) jet and Army helicopter (over £10K an hour). £1Billion is being spent upgrading Army helicopters.
Using public money to fund a NO political campaign without a mandate. Illegal. BT should be financing these ‘secret’ trips.
North Sea helicopter, over 30/40 years old are falling from the sky because North Sea (private equity) Helicopter companies are not following UK Heath & Safety guidelines They are getting away with murder.
Someone is probably going to lose their job at the BBC-Pravda for deviating from the script. Its a shame really, but that’s the price of truth at the state propaganda machine
Man in the jar.
Re stickers…wait until he goes out removing yes stickers then stick loads all over his doors and windows, if he asks, just tell him you were out putting more stickers where he just removed them…this campaign needs another ” stickergate”….lol.
On a lighter note, my pals uncle approaches No people on the streets and asks them questions why we should stay with the union while he sneakily puts a Yes sticker on his back…at 53 you would think he would be a bit more ahem…mature…lol
I love his approach geeo. 😛
Since songs are being thrown about…
Little Acorns by The White Stripes….
Its got a wee story about a squirrel at the start..Bless!
To be fair to BT No thanks, they did say there was no oil left in the North Sea.
It is just they forgot to mention that Scotland has just discovered one of the largest oil fields in the World in the North Atlantic.
So quite a simple mistake to make.
Best of both Seas !
I like to keep the No chaps at the door as long as possible by acting all confused/undecided, gets them all fuzzy you know…then after letting them think they have me after about 10/15mins i ask them to clarify which side compared people to nazis with the blood and soil comment…one actually told me it was A.Salmond !!!
That cost him another 10 mins, as i told him, i have put up with your lies and spin, now you are going to listen to some of my bullshit, or as i like to call it, truth.
That’ll be the non-voter then.
something strange going on here, all subsequent articles and their posts are er gone!